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Virus Eliminated: NZ is free

Just pausing for a moment to say “cheers, New Zealand”.

The last remaining barrier there are closed international borders.

LiveScience Updates

NEW ZEALAND EASES ALMOST ALL CORONAVIRUS RESTRICTIONS AMID NO ACTIVE COVID-19 CASES

— New Zealand has no active cases of the coronavirus, and no new positive cases reported in the past 17 days, according to CNN. For the past 12 days, there are no patients in the hospital receiving treatment for COVID-19 and for the past 40 days, there is no evidence of community transmission, according to CNN. Now, New Zealand is lifting almost all of its coronavirus restrictions, while still encouraging social distancing, keeping borders shut to non-residents and requiring that residents traveling into the country to quarantine for 14 days, according to CNN. New Zealand will be under “alert level 1” rules which means there will be no restrictions on domestic transport and no restrictions on workplaces or services, according to CNN and New Zealand’s government website.

New Zealands daily new cases graphed. Black marks deaths. Wikipedia NZ timeline

Coronavirus cases, NZ

New Zealand 1,500 cases and only 22 deaths. The peak of the curve is somewhere around March 30th. The quarantine measures were ramped up between March 14-23

Plenty of other countries headed to zero and keen to join in soon.  See Switzerland. Norway. Hong Kong. Taiwan.

VN:F [1.9.22_1171]
Rating: 8.0/10 (44 votes cast)
Virus Eliminated: NZ is free , 8.0 out of 10 based on 44 ratings

183 comments to Virus Eliminated: NZ is free

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    Meanwhile, in Oz, elitist politicians try there darndest to prolong their tyranny by using the virus … almost as if the Ruby Princess didn’t do enough …

    “It will take at least a week to determine whether last Saturday’s Black Lives Matter protest in Melbourne has contributed to any spread of the virus.

    A worthy cause but a fundamentally irresponsible thing to do, we won’t know the results of that for another two weeks,” Mr Andrews told reporters on Tuesday.”

    https://www.greatlakesadvocate.com.au/story/6787337/victoria-marches-to-its-new-normality/

    Same weekend … ‘Safety at risk’: Big long-weekend crowds force closure of Rye pier

    “Authorities have closed a pier in Rye amid fears that crowds of people were ignoring physical distancing requirements.”

    https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/safety-at-risk-big-long-weekend-crowds-force-closure-of-rye-pier-20200608-p550gf.html

    >> And fishing is not a worthy cause?
    Perhaps if your life mattered you could continue fishing …

    181

  • #
    Graham Richards

    Remember Sweden about 6 weeks ago. The virus free Welfare Capital of the universe, the smart arse socialists. Now have the highest infections per million inhabitants!
    Don’t crow too much about New Zealand. Nobody wants to see the virus return except for a certain aggressive Eastern power. Be very careful & trust nobody!!

    139

    • #
      RickWill

      Sweden is yet to show a slow down in cases. In fact in the last week there has a been a jump in cases:
      http://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/?chart=countries&highlight=Sweden&show=25&y=highlight&scale=linear&data=cases-daily-7#countries
      Quarantining nursing homes appears to have reduced the death rate in Sweden. There was a gradual reduction in ICU enrolments from around 50 per day to now 30 per day a few weeks after the aged care homes were quarantined. It will be a long time before wider population can visit aged care homes.

      There has also been a subtle change in the US as well with California now recording more deaths per day than New York. There is no sign of California getting the reproductive rate below 1. Currently daily cases doubling about every 40 days.

      It will be a long time before USA reaches the position NZ has achieved.

      55

      • #
        rowingboat

        This website updates R0 values for each American state and ranks them:

        https://rt.live/

        Indeed, New York is doing much better, second-best state with R0=0.77. Western states CA, OR not so good with WA the worst of all.

        21

      • #
        bobn

        While the death rate in Sweden is high, its not as high as several countries that went into total and savage lockdown.
        Deaths per million Popn as of 8Jun https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
        Sweden 475
        France 449
        Italy 564
        Spain 580
        UK 606
        Belgium 831

        Thus using actual data (and not computer models) we can see that ‘lockdowns’ of the general Popn have been irrelevant to controlling the virus. Other factors are key. Principally age as several commentators have noted. Average age for deaths in all countries is over 70 and in some over 80. Then other co-ailments. There is arural/city bias. Densly pop areas get hit worst. And there is an ethnic bias apparent. Interesting that over the last 20yrs Italy has always had one of the highest winter flu death rates and Denmark one of the lowest. A pattern repeated with Covid 19. Antisocial standing 2meters apart shows no relevance whatsoever, though wearing masks as the Asian countries have done shows a major reduction in deaths. Japan has 919 deaths in total for 136 per million with restaurants and bars staying open! The data says domestic lockdowns had no impact on disease spread. Though coronavirus (like AGW) theory ‘experts’ say trust the models.

        40

    • #
      rowingboat

      Qatar has by far and away the most infections per million inhabitants of any country… 25,600 (Sweden is 4,549) in a population of 2.8 million people. Yet Qatar has only suffered 62 deaths with a death rate of 0.09% because only 4.4% of its populace is over the age of 55. Imagine the tragedy if Qatar had a demographic like Italy’s?

      IMO, when the multifactorial analysis is eventually done (at least of this first wave of the virus) global death rates will correlate most closely with age demographics and how well (or not) each country specifically protected its elderly residents. Important lessons will hopefully be learnt to improve the quality of life for our elderly and how better to care for them in the future.

      81

      • #
        PeterW

        RB….
        Given the association between poor COVID outcomes and metabolic issues such as diabetes and hypertension, it seems likely that age will be a factor at least in part because it increases susceptibility to these comorbidities.

        But, like you, I look forward to a good, multivariant analysis. The focus on lockdown and lockdown alone is looking increasingly monomaniacal.

        71

        • #
          Environment Skeptic

          monomaniacal

          I like that word…it has a wholesome woody feel to it…not tinny at all. :)

          01

      • #
        Kalm Keith

        Similar situation in Vietnam.
        Relatively young population with roughly 70 % of the population under 45 years of age.

        41

      • #
        RickWill

        On a population basis, Qatar has done 3X the testing of Sweden. If the Qatar tests were based on contact tracing then it would be highly biased to finding actual cases. Sweden has not done much more testing outside its hospitals. By my estimate Sweden would have suffered about 350k infections but only found 45k.

        Qatar still has a lot of cases in the pipeline. The peak in cases appears to have occurred this month so there are a lot to get to hospital yet and there are already 230 in critical care; about 50% will not make it out alive.
        http://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/?chart=countries&highlight=Qatar&show=25&y=highlight&scale=linear&data=cases-daily-7#countries
        The peak in daily deaths in yet to be met.

        So age is a factor, no doubt, but Qatar still has a long way to go.

        20

  • #
    PeterS

    Does this mean they have also eliminated the flu? If not why not given Covid1-9 is supposedly more viral and dangerous? Same sort of questioning applies to here in Australia given we have almost achieved the same result in the fight against Covid-19.

    161

    • #
      RickWill

      I expect the flu has gone as well.

      Victoria has not recorded a single flu death so far in 2020.

      Will we see medical insurance premiums fall?

      101

      • #

        An update on my 14 May post re the lockdown influence on the flu (http://joannenova.com.au/2020/05/lockdowns-work-influenza-cases-are-90-down-across-17-countries/) …

        The World Health Organisation’s FluNet data currently has nine countries with recently updated figures that can be compared back to 2014 (Australia, Canada, China, Germany, Japan, Mexico, Russia, South Africa, UK) for positive laboratory influenza tests of specimens during weeks 14 to 21 in each year (week 21 ending 24 May).

        Those nine countries had an average 19,666 positive flu test results during weeks 14-21 of 2014-2019, the worst year being 2019 with a total of 30,790.

        In weeks 14-21 this year, their total was 1,553. So their averaged decrease in positive flu specimen tests is -92.1%.

        Actually, four of those countries have updated to week 22 (ending 31 May) (Australia, Mexico, South Africa, UK). Their average positive flu tests in weeks 14-22 of 2014-2019 were 3,188, with 2019 again the worst with 6,620 positive results. In weeks, 14-22 this year, they had 257 positive results – a 96.1% decrease.

        Australia itself had an average 729 positive flu results in weeks 14-22 of 2014-2109 (last year 2,887) and in weeks 14-22 this year had a total of 29 (all in weeks 14-17 and zero flu positives in the five weeks to 31 May). That’s a 96.0% reduction.

        Australia’s National Notifiable Diseases Surveillance Network allows some monitoring of 49 diseases (excluding COVID-19).

        Those diseases include hepatitis A-B-C-D-E, campylobacteriosis, cryptosporidiosis, haemolytic uraemic syndrome, listeriosis, paratyphoid, STEC, salmonellosis, shigellosis, typhoid fever, legionellosis, meningococcal disease (invasive), tuberculosis, chlamydial infection, gonococcal infection, syphilis, diphtheria, haemophilus influenzae type b, influenza (laboratory confirmed), measles, mumps, pertussis, pneumococcal disease (invasive), poliovirus infection, rotavirus, rubella, chickenpox, shingles, varicella zoster, barmah forest virus infection, chikungunya virus infection, dengue virus infection, flavivirus infection (unspecified), Japanese encephalitis virus infection, malaria, Ross River virus, brucellosis, leptospirosis, ornithosis, Q fever, tularaemia (you shouldn’t have asked :-)

        Those diseases have been on a disturbing upward trend since 2014. Australia’s total population increased 7.3% from 2014 to 2019, but the total annual number of disease notifications increased 112.6% from 278,881 in 2014 to 592,989 in 2019.

        However, on a monthly basis there were 15,223 notifications in May this year. Looking back, that means May 2020 had 23.7% less disease notifications than in May 2014 (19,958 > 15,223), and 72.3% less than in May 2019 (55,006 > 15,223).

        It’s still early in the month but up to today (10 June 2020), the NNDSN had reported 2,181 disease notifications across Australia (excluding COVID-19, which has had 31 notifications). Throughout June of 2019 there were 78,997, putting us on track to this month have about 92% fewer.

        None of these figures should be viewed as an entirely accurate representation of how many people in Australia or elsewhere actually have the flu or any of the other diseases, but they are collated by the WHO and the Australian government and should be considered indicative.

        Australia has had a high proportion of flu vaccinations this year because of COVID fears and that may be influencing our low influenza count, but similar results from other countries suggest it’s more likely to be a result of the lockdown and social isolation.

        However, I can’t see much correlation between the spread of COVID-19 and the spread of other diseases, possibly because the lockdowns are adequate for most of them but inadequate to similarly curtail the more infectious COVID-19.

        For example, Victoria has had the biggest decrease in notifiable diseases and Queensland the worst (with a stark difference in sexually transmitted diseases) but that’s not reflected in their numbers of COVID-19 cases.

        The lack of correlation may also have something to do with COVID-19 flaring in isolated bunches and mostly sourced to people arriving from overseas, with the Ruby Princess and Cedar Meats being obvious examples. COVID-19 triggers tracked quarantine responses that make it somewhat unique from the other diseases, so a correlation possibly wouldn’t make much sense.

        Whatever, if data indicators for the flu and other diseases truly reflect what’s happening in different communities, COVID-19 (or the social lockdown response) has a silver lining and may have saved lives – at least in Australia.

        71

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          Thanks Chris, a very useful perspective.

          KK

          10

          • #

            Another snippet of information gleaned a few moments ago from Australia’s Notifiable Diseases Surveillance System.

            The notification rate for influenza (laboratory confirmed) cases per 100,000 population in May 2019 was 122.3. In May this year it was 0.9.

            In June last year it was 231.9. We’re just over a third of the way through the month but so far the rate per 100,000 population for June 2020 is 0.1.

            I’m very dubious that Australia is currently enjoying a 99.9% reduction in 49 notifiable diseases. Such a percentage is almost absurd, but it’s difficult to argue the figures are at least indicative of a fairly significant reduction in the general community.

            It would require few research skills for the media to look at such data and maybe dig a bit further to analyse exactly what impact the lockdown has had on the spread of influenza and other diseases within the Australian community. Reporters are currently obsessed with COVID-19 and have maybe forgotten there are other diseases that have trouble spreading when most people are keeping their distance, wearing masks, washing their hands with soap and disinfectant, etc.

            Not all 49 diseases are communicable (e.g. Ross River Virus is mosquito-borne and May cases this year were well up on last year). Influenza is, of course, the biggest contributor to communicable disease reductions, but sexually transmitted diseases across Australia were also down 45.6% from 13,544 in May 2019 to 7,363 in May this year (no pubs or nightclubs, no nooky).

            An MSM story about non-COVID disease reduction might at least put a smile on the faces of readers who otherwise are buried under an avalanche of gloomy stories about COVID-19 and economic catastrophe.

            10

        • #
          AndyG55

          It makes total sense that if “bugs” are not allowed to spread, there will be less “bug” induced illness.

          Problem is, that unless we all want a permanent lock-down, these instances of flu will naturally go back up to pre-covid levels.

          These things are part of the attrition of normal life.

          00

          • #
            Bill In Oz

            From whence came these bugs ?
            I suggest from overseas.
            So lock down is not the solution.

            Quarantine is the solution.
            TdeF in many of his comments
            Suggested, nay demanded that all passengers
            Be screen on arrival for any symptoms of infectious diseases
            And put in quarantine if they had them.
            Common sense really.

            Unless some one has an ( hidden? )
            agenda of spreading such diseases into Australia

            02

            • #
              AndyG55

              We had to stop the bug once it was here. Looks like mostly successful

              We should be able to open up travel within Australia and drop all the lock-down restrictions (was good enough for protesters)

              Somehow, we need to make sure it doesn’t come back in.

              00

      • #
        John of Cloverdale, WA, Australia

        So far 9 deaths from Corona Virus in WA. In 2019 (up to the 25th June) there were 36 deaths from Influenza in WA. I have no figures for this year, but as one would expect, it has to be very small due to closed borders, isolation, social distancing etc.

        01

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          The great government response in WA has lowered the death toll hugely.
          Most people know this and are grateful
          Some don’t know gratitude at all.

          02

  • #
    Bruce

    yay us……

    This is the end of the beginning… now the hard stuff happens… the economy is f****d and our pointless PM is now scolding companies from doing what needs to be done – downsizing to meet the new reality… her team of 5 million is rapidly shrinking by the day as more and more people find themselves without a job…

    381

    • #
      PeterS

      Yes most businesses, large and small will take this opportunity to keep their staff numbers to a minimum thus leaving countless people on the scrap heap forever. If the ALP play their cards right (they rarely ever do) they could turn that into an electoral victory very easily. Let’s hope they don’t play their cards right.

      107

      • #
        Bruce

        Yeah… well maybe… however, in this unlucky country we have an election in about 4 months and the Govt has not wasted this crisis by fire hosing benefits and welfare all over the place… so good old muggins taxpayer (i.e. me and a few others) will have to pay for this in coming years…

        312

        • #
          RickWill

          so good old muggins taxpayer (i.e. me and a few others) will have to pay for this in coming years…

          The welfare was new money produced at zero cost to anyone in New Zealand. Inflation is low or negative. Current account likely improved with strong start to the year in meat and dairy export – just hope China continues to demand NZ products. The new money just ends up in bank deposits and lowers the government future obligations for pension payments. Government has spent now to save later.

          Australia is not in favour with China at the moment due to requesting independent review of the source of CV19. Australian universities and tourist operators are frantic over the loss of Chinese visitors. That presents an opportunity for NZ. Should immediately open up borders to Taiwan and start advertising there.

          412

          • #
            Ross

            “The welfare was new money produced at zero cost to anyone in New Zealand ”

            Is this new monetary theory idea ? If it is so easy why does anyone pay taxes –just print more money, as it is needed ?
            The cost will be to New Zealanders for the next couple of generations.

            Even with the huge cost to Australia of the drought, the bush fires and this virus situation, Australia will recover years ahead of NZ.

            112

          • #
            MudCrab

            …at zero cost to anyone in New Zealand…

            You are probably correct.

            The cost to people on the West Island, however.

            The New Zealand Supreme Ruler is on record as saying that the Australian economy can only be rebuilt using New Zealand labour. If turning your entire country into a temp agency for the South Pacific is your plan for solving national unemployment then you may just want to start thinking up some plan B, C, D, E and F as well.

            Just in case.

            20

            • #
              Bill In Oz

              Did she have that brain fart ?
              Ohhh well, no way anyone here in Oz can control what she thinks…
              One more thing to ignore Mudcrab.

              04

          • #
            Analitik

            Others have already commented on the silliness of the “zero cost” statement

            But I’d like to examine the following statement

            Australia is not in favour with China at the moment due to requesting independent review of the source of CV19. Australian universities and tourist operators are frantic over the loss of Chinese visitors. That presents an opportunity for NZ. Should immediately open up borders to Taiwan and start advertising there.

            Err, you do realise that Taiwan and China are not at all the same, right? In fact increasing dealings with Taiwan is almost certainly going to raise the ire of China.

            31

      • #
        PeterW

        PeterS.

        Bashing business will not get us anywhere. Anyone thinking that business in general wants to reduce employment has rocks in their head.

        1. Employees MAKE STUFF, Stuff which the business SELLS FOR PROFIT. No employees equals no profit.
        (Am I going too fast for you?)

        2. People with jobs have MORE MONEY. People with more money BUY STUFF. People buying stuff means business SELLS STUFF. ……. and they don’t make profits if they don’t sell stuff.

        41

        • #
          PeterS

          Not bashing business. I have one of my own. I’m talking about the realities of life. I know many small businesses who will not re-hire the same number of people as they lost. It’s called business. We are not charities.

          50

          • #
            el gordo

            A lot of very small businesses have already opted to live off government charity for as long as it takes. I hear its not borrowed money, all freshly printed new bills from Treasury.

            10

    • #
      sophocles

      We still have to make it through the late-winter early-spring Sickness Season (aka the ‘Flu Season).

      That’s going to be interesting, because the pressure to open the borders and reinstitute international travel is increasing rapidly. Let’s not be so quick to undo all the good work so far done.

      Keep the borders closed for another 4 months. (and keep your vitamin D levels up).

      108

      • #
        el gordo

        Across the gap we hope to be Covid and Flu free by the end of June, so its fairly obvious the ANZACS will create a bubble of some kind.

        International travellers are not welcome, unless they are prepared to spend two weeks in a five star hotel at their own expense. This should also apply to international students and immigrants.

        Beijing has told their people that the long noses are racists and they shouldn’t go there. Meanwhile India sees an opportunity to take advantage, they play a lively game of cricket.

        91

      • #
        bobl

        International borders Yes, Domestic borders NO – the unconstitutional trade restrictions need to go NOW. There is not enough COVID disease in Australia now to overwhelm any states hospital system so there is NO emergency a proper NATIONAL approach can handle it.

        32

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          Ummmm We are all waiting on Victoria.
          They had a Covid free day yesterday.
          But after those demos n the weekend ?
          No thanks bets to wait a little while
          2 weeks or so?

          05

          • #
            bobl

            A valid point, the demos could lead to a major break out among those whose lives don’t matter – yes maybe I’ll let them wait a week.

            The Palace Chook is still headless as far as i’m concerned, no way I’ll vote for her cronies next election regardless of how unelectable the opposition is. I feel a third party coming on.

            43

          • #
            Gary Simpson

            Yeah, black lives matter so much that all those sympathetic millenial losers decided they could put them at risk by their very uninformed ‘protest’.

            50

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Now that this Corona virus is out in the world, our western civilisation has changed for ever.
      The globally inter connected people travelling freely anywhere ‘model’ is dead.
      We may soon have a vaccine for this virus.
      But the CCP Wuhan virus has demonstrated that the old globally connected model left us completely open to such attacks whether deliberate or inadvertent.
      We will see some form of permanent quarantine on the borders of many developed countries.
      The old way doing things is broken.
      This includes New Zeland and Australia.
      Object Lesson : Don’t put your money into airline shares like Air New Zealand or Qantas or Flight Center.
      Former employees in these travel industry had best seek alternative employment.

      914

      • #
        Boris

        You’re not seeing it, Bill.

        It’s another play of the global technocracy – Davos set, who have been negotiating and presumably twisting the arms of our politicians to agree to things such as the World Economic Forum global plan. The future will consist of more imposition of their style of fear management. They’re plan is a bureaucracy of the internet of everything, AI, robots etc. wrapped up in keeping people afraid and insisting that life is so precarious and we shouldn’t be free because our freedom to live is planet destroying and racist, so we need their permission to eek out a modest living hindered at every turn.

        Their latest PsyOP is the old divide and conquer strategy.

        61

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      I think if Comrade Ju-cunda took a chill pill things woukd go better, but I suspect her globalist masters have told her to cap economic growth ( by pushing downsizing and limiting economic growth and self determinatiob , thus establushing a new fuedalism ) to stop it spoiling thier mythical “gaia”

      Note to hubristic and pathetic globalists – get lost!

      If everyone went out and actively spent money targetting small business ( not multinationals ) we can reboot the economy quickly.

      Dont forget the communist MSM want you to feel its hopeless, but its quite the reverse….Conrade Ju-cunda is just an obedient puppet.

      Limiting growth requires feeling hopeless – dont let them win…

      133

      • #
        Greg in NZ

        Who will think of the penguins… the Penguin of course, meh-meh!

        https://www.penguin.co.nz/books/taking-the-lead-9780143774518

        Three months prior to our elections, Penguin publish a children’s illustrated book (which is going to every school in the country) titled ‘TAKING THE LEAD: How Jacinda Ardern Wowed the World’.

        Written in very simple language with lots of bright & cheery (red) pictures, it extols the humble virtues of Dear Leader Hard’n'Early. Apparently she wanted to be a clown or a scientist as a child, but to “help people” chose politics instead… puh-leeze! Is this the same Jucunduh who recently said ‘eliminate’ does not necessarily mean ‘eliminate’?

        Also, hopefully no one misconstrues the double entendre hidden within the title, Taking The Lead, or did I simply watch far too many cowboy/war movies as a child?

        60

        • #
          MudCrab

          …wanted to be a clown or a scientist

          Is there a difference?

          50

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          Aren’t you lucky there in Kiwi land’
          That kids don’t vote
          And neither do Penguins
          :-)

          44

          • #
            Greg in NZ

            MudCrab, my exact sentiments – clown/scientist – especially in this post-post-modern age of ‘new’ science/fiction.

            Bill, the Greens have been trying for a few years to drop the voting age to 16 – a sure sign of desperation – it should be 30! :-)

            60

            • #

              Or let people under 30 earn the right to vote — those who put their lives on the line for their nation, or who pay more tax than they receive perhaps?

              91

        • #
          Gary Simpson

          Two out of three – clown politician.

          10

  • #
    Richard Ilfeld

    Relatively easy border control is clearly important.
    Clearly New Zealand has that.
    Switzerland has good border control, along with good internal policing, and a centuries long tradition of a cohesive social order.
    Taiwan, like New Zealand is essentially an island.

    With these examples, I am wondering how Hawaii will go forward; clearly they are on the horns of a ‘health or economy’ dilemma.
    I think the federal govt. would let them isolate if they wished, unlike the continental 49 states.

    It is extremely difficult to get a grip on what is happening here in the US, except in one’s own locality.
    I see headlines in supposedly respectable media: ‘Texas sees expected rise in cases as opening proceeds and testing increases’ and ‘Massive spike in cases in Texas’.
    We are running a huge experiment in sudden re-opening, but probably not tracing well enough to take advantage of it.

    Our press have noted the New Zealand success, but it is untouchable as to being prescriptive for the US.
    But our post mortem will be interesting.

    Jo has asserted here, many times, that closing the borders, hard, and locking down, hard, for a brief period, followed by testing, tracing, and quarantine as necessary
    is effective. Here is data that proves the theorem.

    Now…Did China try, but fail, because of size and chaos, even with their level of social control? Or were they slow on the trigger? What are they doing now? Should Chinese
    nationals be quarantined by the world until they come clean?
    What can the US do, in a recurrence or when the next pandemic hits? The other democracies?

    Will we bifurcate international trade and international travel, so we can maintain one and not the other?

    Will nations put a significantly higher value on economic self sufficiency?

    Who will trust their current set of leaders to make these decisions? (I don’t see many hands raised at this one.)

    92

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Good questions Richard.
      Here as local companies in hospitality, mass events, hotel, catering cafes & restaurants,
      May I think have realised one simple thing : That their best interests in the future are very different to the travel (airline ) industry.
      An industry that can spread infectious diseases via infected travellers, so quickly across the planet can quickly close them all down.

      The best interests of other sectors lies in promoting and catering to the internal market or to travellers from those rare countries that have entered the virus free bubble. But given China will not be trusted after this CCP Wuhan virus fiasco, I doubt that Australia or New Zealand will ecer let China join the bubble..

      25

  • #
    Kalm Keith

    Bruce has it. The aftermath.

    The next six months will be very interesting as the “treatment” is assessed and side effects counted.

    I hope things balance out but private enterprise may be badly shaken.

    60

  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    Good on Jacinta, and NZ
    However, let’s not forget our Asian and Pacific neighbours like Fiji, Vietnam as examples, in a list of 69 other countries who, according to worldmeters have done as well or better.
    This is a stunning indictment against those countries with the misfortune to be ruled by right wing populists, showing that science trumps illiteracy. (I could have said Trump’s illiteracy but I was being nice)

    135

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      And what do you call the ‘progressive’ Sandinistas of Nicaragua Peter ?
      They did nada, zip, nothing about the virus.
      And now members of that regime’s inner circle are dying from Covid 19.
      ( A jolly good thing actually )
      And Maduro’s left wing mob in Venezuela have been equally bloody useless.
      With just a little bit of luck some of them will also catch the flu.

      107

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        Bill, I’m saying that NZ did well, but so did a lot of our neighbours, some significantly better. I know that this comes as a shock to some who only consume a narrow slice of the media. Last time I looked, your examples were not in our neighbourhood so what exactly was your point. If you dispute the source I used, by all means point me to another.

        116

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          Those left wing regimes have also made huge blunders.
          But that fact doe snot fit your agenda

          46

        • #
          el gordo

          I agree we should cast our net wider, Timor, Papua and Fiji, agricultural guest workers to replace young Europeans who normally do the picking.

          This is not a left and right thing, the virus is indiscriminate.

          22

          • #
            Bill In Oz

            Plenty of European backpackers still wish to come here EG.
            The issue is whether their home countries have eliminated the virus.
            And as the fruit picking season is almost over till Mango’s come on in Qld & NT,
            There is lots of time for the countries of Europe to sort out their Covid 19 status.
            As for Fruit pickers from PNG, Timur L’Este & Fiji, as a former farmer,I say No.
            There are rotten bastards in the Fruit picking employment supply chain
            Who will take advantage of anyone who is even slightly ‘vulnerable’
            And workers from those countries are especially vulnerable to exploitation
            With poor language skills and completely unfamiliar with Australia & how it works.

            24

            • #
              Bill In Oz

              Ahh yes, I’m in the permanent Jo Nova Sin Bin
              5th comment this morning is moderation !

              26

            • #
              el gordo

              ‘As for Fruit pickers from PNG, Timur L’Este & Fiji …’

              Yeah, perhaps we should reconsider European backpackers, Ireland takes in agricultural guest workers from eastern Europe.

              The backpackers can’t afford to spend two weeks in isolation on arrival. So I suggest all applicants take a test in their home country a couple of weeks before flying out, temperature tests at the airports for outbounds and then when they arrive in the Antipodes.

              10

        • #
          Peter Fitzroy

          Sorry Bill, what I was trying to say is that there is a media bias which ignores what happens in Asia, possibly because it does not suit their agenda. I just could not resist a cheap shot at Trump

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          • #
            AndyG55

            “a cheap shot at Trump”

            Don’t you mean the governors that sent Covid patients into nursing homes ?

            210

          • #
            el gordo

            With backpackers unwelcome we’ll need to find new guest workers and Australia defends its multicultural credentials.

            ‘Shadow Education Minister Tanya Plibersek also defended Australia’s record with international students.

            “I have met dozens of senior leaders in our region who continue to speak fondly of their time studying in Australia and of the lifelong connections they made,” she said.

            “Australia is one of the safest countries in the world for overseas students.” ABC

            30

    • #
      PeterW

      Papua New Guinea.

      8 cases. 8 recovered.
      Cases per million 0.9
      Deaths per million – 0

      Porous borders. Rudimentary health system. No tracing…… but they “did better” than Australia and NZ.

      Either we accept that all of our methods have been useless….. or we accept that statistics from places lacking our rigour, resources and focus should be treated with even more scepticism than our own.

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    • #
      Peter Fitzroy

      You see, none of the comments, and none of the red thumbs, have anything to say about how our other neighbours have reacted, either in terms of controlling the pandemic, or the economic hit they have taken. For example, if we in Australia really cared, we would be trying to help our smaller neighbours like Fiji.

      However, we do not hear about their struggles, nor do we offer any meaningful aid, and that leaves them wide open for another power to step in with help (both economic and medical), thereby increasing their sphere of influence at our expense.

      Every country for itself, and the devil take the hindmost.

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      • #
        AndyG55

        [SNIP. No YELLING Andy]

        61

      • #
        AndyG55

        Absolutely wrong, yet again !!

        Indonesia is our second biggest foreign aid recipient.

        … and is projected to be the World’s fifth largest economy by 2030.

        The largest Australian foreign aid recipient was Papua New Guinea

        … making a [SNIP] of your comment about us not helping out our nearest neighbours.

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      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        so small pacific nations will fall into the orbit of the purveyor of belts and roads, all because we are mean spirited with our aid. By the way, Indonesia gets our aid as a way to suppress boat arrivals.

        29

        • #
          AndyG55

          “Indonesia gets our aid as a way to suppress boat arrivals.”

          Wonderful decision, hey . !

          FACT: Indonesia and Papua New Guinea are the 1st and 2nd recipients of Australian aid.

          Or did you just bypass that FACT in your little mind. !

          Yes China has more free wealth than Australia has,

          .. and gives handout with many strings attached.

          Your point is… as always… pointless. !

          51

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            And, there’s probably more “free wealth” laying around in Indonesia than in Australia.

            There are 30 million very rich people in Indonesia.

            Compared to them, perhaps we should be the ones getting “assistance”.

            KK

            30

        • #
          el gordo

          Its less about the aid program and more to do with the balance of trade.

          ‘Australia’s two-way trade with Indonesia was worth $16.8 billion in 2017-18, making Indonesia our 13th largest trade partner. Agricultural products are among Australia’s key merchandise exports to Indonesia, while crude petroleum and manufactured goods are key imports.’ defat

          Because of the pandemic its more likely that the small Pacific islands will join in the South Sea Bubble, while Indonesia may remain problematic. The island of Bali is doing it tough and could do with some direct Australian aid.

          After the Pandemic (AP) the belt and road extravaganza will focus on third world countries, so the VFT from Beijing to Melbourne is unlikely to be realised in our life time.

          20

          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            el gordo, we have spare capacity and skills which we should be exporting, along with allowing our tourists into these relatively safe areas. Many of the Pacific nations depend on tourism, and allowing us to travel there would be a huge political win for us.
            The problem is that we only look to the northern hemisphere blinds us to what is happening in our backyard. Mind you we are biased against that, and that bias is reinforced by the stories we consume.

            32

            • #
              el gordo

              Which is why I suggested direct aid to Bali, with state of the art help to prevent the virus returning. In this way we draw them into our sphere of influence.

              Every island state must be judged on their merit and once again we provide aid in detecting Covid-19, which will allow them to reopen for business. Strategically its a win for us.

              10

              • #
                Peter Fitzroy

                Yep, sounds good, I’m sure the slightly more problematic virus control could be overcome. Fiji, or New Caledonia, do not have any cases, and so would be more at risk from us, but would probably accept the risk, for the improvement in their economy

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              • #
                el gordo

                Yep, don’t worry, all the small nation states want a pristine environment.

                20

            • #
              AndyG55

              China has less deaths per million than either Australia or NZ.

              Let’s open up travel to China. :-)

              12

            • #
              AndyG55

              “we only look to the northern hemisphere”

              LOL, The top two destinations for Australian tourists just happen to be New Zealand and Indonesia.

              China, Japan, Thailand, India and Singapore, all in the top 10

              Fiji, despite being tiny, is in #10 spot

              Wouldn’t want actual facts to intrude on your rants, would we, Peter.

              02

      • #
        AndyG55

        “if we in Australia really cared, we would be trying to help our smaller neighbours like Fiji.”

        We are.

        https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-20/australia-financial-support-pacific-governments-cyclone-pandemic/12262328

        Stop being intentionally wrong.

        21

        • #
          Peter Fitzroy

          you might want to read it first. This is old money repurposed

          22

          • #
            AndyG55

            Financial support given, and a lot of it.

            I thought that was what you wanted.

            You seem to think Australia, with its very large debt, has bottomless pockets.

            Typical leftist thinking.

            Seems you are also quite hard of reading…

            “This immediate funding will provide respite, as new funding is mobilised …”

            “the $2 billion Australian Infrastructure Financing Facility for the Pacific will factor in potential for economic growth, employment and health outcomes in assessing projects it will fund.”

            22

    • #
      Ross

      Your first sentence is correct Peter. A pity you had to ruin your post with the second sentence.

      BTW. NZ could have done much better if we had acted earlier, as many over here were pushing for. The reality is our Government has been reactive from day one. They have not made one proactive move, including going down to Level 1 restrictions this week. That was only done due to public pressure plus the protesters getting away without social distancing in the weekend.

      80

    • #
      AndyG55

      [SNIP. ad hom. Settle down please. ]

      40

      • #
        JanEarth

        Andy

        Once again the pot calling the kettle black. Try using a bit of logic in your arguments instead of always relying on ad hominem fallacy. And stop shouting !

        10

    • #
      MudCrab

      “…to be ruled by right wing populists…”

      Tell me, Young Peter, what upsets you more? right, or populist?

      30

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        incompetence, illiteracy on any axis, Mr Crab.

        16

      • #
        PeterW

        Fitz must really hate himself…… or he would if he had included “dishonesty” in his list.

        21

        • #
          Peter Fitzroy

          hmm – all you have is snarling insults.

          32

          • #
            AndyG55

            Your whole posts are nothing but snarling insults Peter

            And you KNOW that.. It is your only reason for posting.

            Stop whinging when you get some of your own back.

            14

          • #
            el gordo

            ‘This is a stunning indictment against those countries with the misfortune to be ruled by right wing populists …’

            The laissez-faire attitude is in their DNA. In future it maybe better to call them centre right governments, to avoid any unnecessary angst.

            10

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            More victimhood.

            “Nobody can touch me, I’m a victim.”

            But, have you sold your house yet?

            01

    • #
      John F. Hultquist

      Peter Fitzroy,
      One should be aware that in “the United States” of America it is the “state” (governors) that are responsible for the things you blame on Trump. You ought not write about things you know so little about.

      I do not have either the time or inclination to correct your ignorance. You can search it up.

      71

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        rubbish, it is no different to our set up in Australia, stop being an apologist

        19

        • #
          AndyG55

          WRONG again. States are responsible for what happens in their states.

          Trump didn’t send Covid positive people into nursing homes.. State governors did.

          Stop being an ignorant TDR sufferer.

          81

    • #
      AndyG55

      “to be ruled by right wing populists”

      You mean like Sweden (465 deaths/M), France (450/M) and Spain (580/M)?

      Close to 1.5 times the death rate of the USA. All socialist left wing.

      41

  • #
    John Galt

    Congrats to NZ for destroying all the tourism small businesses and placing the economy on life support. You saved some lives and destroyed many more.
    The elderly and less healthy you saved should be grateful for the sacrifice made by so many small businesses and the families that have been placed under so much stress.
    NZ had some immense advantages to make their actions effective, too.
    Not many feeble boats of immigrants try for NZ and the border needs no walls built at great expense. Just a government dictatorship was needed.
    Had the virus struck NZ in the middle of winter the result would likely have been much different.

    234

  • #
    Bill In Oz

    Brief Off Topic : Minus 0.8 degrees this morning in Adelaide.
    The coldest temperature for 72 years.
    Where the hell is that long promised global warming ?

    154

    • #
      JanEarth

      Bil

      Well weather is not climate as the CAGW crowd will say… unless of course it suits their agenda.

      It has been cold though -1.4 at Parafield airport early on Tuesday.

      40

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        Jan the weather is the climate
        On a day by day basis.
        That CAGW trope is just a way of helping the devote followers ignore reality

        13

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          BTW the shonky gauge at Mt Barker
          Sheltered by a tree, a fence and two houses
          Registered on minus 0.3 degrees.
          Meanwhile the lawn and paddocks across the road were frosted over at 9.00 AM
          And our car windscreens had frost on them at 10.00 pm last night.

          I suspect that in reality it was colder here than at Parafield.
          But then that does rely on the BOM’s weather stations
          .:-(

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  • #
    Penguinite

    All very well Jacinda but how are you intending to sustain this illustrious position into the future?

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  • #

    Whats missing is a summation of the economic damage, which is immense. Jacinda and co seem to believe businesses are like switches, which one can turn on and off at will. They are nothing of the sort.
    And as I and others have asked, where does this all end up? If there is no vaccine then NZ remains closed for years and its tourism industry is a shadow of what it was. Similarly here. At least here the govt tried to keep as many things going as possible, as they seem to have a better understanding of how business works…

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  • #
    el gordo

    Australia and NZ support the free enterprise model, our economic fundamentals are sound but we should expect some dislocations. Within the bubble there are winners and losers, marginal operations will be shaken out and others will come in to fill the void.

    Those organisations which have become dependent on international tourism and students will need to consider their future.

    35

    • #
      PeterW

      Our economic fundamentals are sound

      .

      Are they?
      We are arguably over-dependent on raw material imports. Every dollar that comes into the country from exports goes through an average of eight pockets (or bank accounts if you want to be picky) before it leaves the country again.
      We are also arguably over-dependent on some categories of inputs…. you don’t create a major manufacturing, pharmaceutical or chemical sector overnight.
      Our internal cost of doing business is excessive.

      The adjustment is likely to be enormously expensive. The taxes required to service increasing government debt has a depressing effect on business investment. Jobs are not going to appear like magic, not without price rises sufficient to make return on investment high enough to more than compensate for taxes, the high-cost environment, limited markets.

      The “losers” are likely to be the majority.

      41

      • #
        PeterW

        Dammit…

        We are over-dependent on raw-material EXPORTS!

        Pardon the brain-fart.

        50

      • #
        el gordo

        We are dependent and Beijing could turn the raw material tap off at any moment, but that is unlikely.

        The government wants to use superannuation for infrastructure building, this is the roadmap ahead. Do you disagree with the idea?

        20

  • #
    Geoff Sherrington

    This virus episode and the economic recovery now starting highlight the values of different employment sectors and ways to measure the value of a job.
    There is a basic dfference between work that generates original wealth and work that just recycles existing wealth. Random types of examples are discovery of new mines contrasted with casino/gambling. The first satisfy the supply of goods needed for lfe, the second satisfy a craving for relaxation or entertainment.
    Fundamental economics suggest that a country takes care of the first type before dealing with the second.
    New Zealand might yet be too light on the productive, first type. There is evident reliance on the second type, with tourism being described as a major industry. If New Zealand closes international travel for virus protection, tourism becomes internal only – so where will the money come from?
    New Zealand and to a fair degree Australia as well need to keep a sharp eye on the balance of these two types as recovery takes place. People now out of work might be wise to seek employment in the first group because it is the one that has a clear future providing the populace with the necessary goods for survival. The second type is optional, like the frothy head on a fresh beer. Geoff S

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    • #
      RickWill

      NZ will release its March quarter current account on 17th June. That will give some indication of the impact China’s issues had on their economy. The January balance of trade was good for NZ.

      Also I expect there will be no reduction in Australians heading to NZ once both countries open borders to each other.

      Kogan was a big winner in Australia. As was Amazon but that is US wealth. Netflix is going gang busters and new streaming services are starting. ZOOM has lived up to its name, tripling in value to USD60bn this year.

      The pandemic shows how the world has changed in the last century. The amount of economic activity to keep us fed and sheltered was such a small proportion of expense that a significant portion of the population could take a paid holiday using the new money created and no noticeable impact on inflation or impairment of the current account. A good number of people were able to work from home.

      The facility offered by the telecommunications world is outstanding; NBN take a bow. The fact that we can share thoughts over this medium and stay connected is fantastic. My wife was late to computers but she has spent maybe two hours a day on her laptop keeping in touch with her friends and various communities as well as shopping. She has already completed most of her 2020 Christmas shopping.

      30

  • #
    justjoshin

    God forbid Australia/New Zealand should need to develop an industry other than tourism. We are countries rich in natural resources. We should be taking this opportunity to develop manufacturing capabilities. Give tax breaks to companies for a few years to allow them to get established cheaply and devalue our currency. How good would it be if we used the iron ore to produce steel, which we used to fabricate cars/planes/whitegoods/electronics. We have the raw resources, what we lack is the drive to industrialise. It would be amazing to buy things which we produced locally that wasn’t just meat/vegetables and wool.

    90

    • #
      PeterW

      Tax breaks ……. get difficult when governments borrow huge amounts of money and have the service the debt.

      It’s going to take more than tax breaks. High transport costs. High energy costs. High employment costs….. all of these make Australian manufacturing unprofitable, and profit is how business owners get paid, payoff their mortgages and feed their families.

      The advocates on central planning should note that it was only when the CCP let private enterprise have a longer chain (they are still not off the chain) that the Chinese economy started to expand. It was never about resources.

      51

      • #
        bobl

        In my opinion there are some things we can emulate from China. China’s government gestates industries it likes eg Electronics and so on. The CCP government takes the startup risk and gets to the top of the pile by dumping, not particularly capitalist but IT WORKS. We can emulate that by building the infrastructure then leasing or selling it to an operator. Like China the Government can take the startup risk. Some of the projects worthy of being jump started:-
        NQ,NT or NWA / Christmas Is. Spaceport, Lights out manufacture on demand factories – IE fully automated factories our small businesses can use to manufacture the same junk the chinese pump out (one per state)- from facemasks to raspberry pi…, Thorium and Uranuim based light reactors, Nuclear Waste storage and security, Fully Automated (Robotic) Mining, Food processing, Even Petrochemical refining is possible if we develop some of our resources (We’ve hardly explored any of Australia). We control more ocean than pretty much any other nation on earth (assuming we repeal Gillard’s economic larceny) so we should be dominant on seafood and seafood processing and many other maritime activities.

        Start them up as highly automated state businesses or coops, then divest them later – you know you can, just like NBN Co.

        (Yes, Yes, I know, they’ll be as inefficient as hell and largely unprofitable until they’re out of government hands but at least they get built.)

        52

  • #
    Clinton

    Per head of population:
    New Zealand infected per million: 301. New Zealand Deaths per million: 4
    Australia infected per million: 285. Australia deaths per million: 4

    Therefore despite harsher lock down restrictions New Zealand did worse.
    Yes we are still having a trickle of cases (2-5 per day in the last 4 days) but we still have a long way to go to get to New Zealand’s infection rate per million.
    The only thing we did that stopped mass spread was shutting the borders to stop community spread.

    102

    • #
      Clinton

      Last line should be ‘The only thing we did in both countries that stopped mass spread was shutting the borders to stop community spread.

      53

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Australia is 8 different regions which have different infection rates.
      So generalisations for all of Australia are fake news.
      And each was impacted by infected incoming travellers differently.The quarantines measures were essential to prevent further infection from overseas. But in places where local transmission got established the only successful elimination strategies were lock downs and social distancing.
      Victoria is still going through that process.
      Why so long in Victoria ? That’s a good question.
      But the competence of the Vic Dpt of Health must be investigated.
      Cedar Meats escaped their notice for almost a month.

      15

      • #
        bobl

        It’s winter Bill, as I’ve predicted all along the southern states are likely to see spikes from microdroplet transmission in the winter Flu season and find elimination difficult until it warms up again. SA has quarantined it out so it probably wont see a spike, 10 x 0 is still 0. Victoria, parts of NSW and Tasmania probably wont fully recover till next summer. Southern WA could flare but frankly populations densities in southern WA are pretty low so I’m pretty sure it wont flare there. Perth is in the warm zone where microdroplet transmission shouldn’t be a huge problem.

        21

        • #
          bobl

          Urg, the moderation filter is having a problem with me again today

          21

          • #
            Serp

            Added to the nearly intolerable system latency which results in duplication of posts by those whose patience is found wanting this more aggressive moderation filter is delaying the chat stream unduly and thus stifling spontaneous conversation but, on the bright side, this is not our ABC.

            40

            • #
              bobl

              Yes, the latency is very bad…

              Jo you might want to investigate, I’ve been putting it down to extra traffic but it’s very persistent

              11

        • #
          Annie

          Winter spikes helped along by large gatherings last weekend. We know which premiers are to blame.

          10

    • #
      AndyG55

      Actually, NZ had 4.56 deaths per million, so , worse than Australia at 4 deaths per million

      https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-covid-deaths-per-million

      80

  • #
    PeterW

    Those wishing to see this as some kind of triumph had best wait for a couple of election cycles.

    When things settle down overseas, it will be difficult to keep up the skeer while the majority of voters are able to assess for themselves whether the pain was worth it.

    61

  • #
    PeterW

    For context…… Alittle voice at the back of my head is asking why – if we must accept so much pain to avoid deaths from COVID, -why we are not undertaking the lesser pain of dealing with Type2 diabetes. It”s heavily implicated in 280 deaths per million population, places a stupendous cost on the health system…… and could be seriously reduced by banning certain refined carbohydrate food products.

    Maybe we don’t because it’s not new enough, because those who argue tgat there is no price on lives don’t believe their own rhetoric…….. or because too many voters would be too ticked-off.
    Incidentally, the death rate per capita is five times higher among the ATSIC community. BLM anyone?

    I don’t support such a ban, mostly because I don’t believe in the nanny-state and authoritarian control on us “for our own good”. Stupid hurts, but you have a right to be stupid….

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    • #
      bobl

      I take your point but I really don’t want to let the Nanny state take too many liberties with our freedom. The biggest problem really is sugar, sugar is in everything, even commercial spaghetti sauce contains added sugar so rather than ban foods entirely maybe we could better regulate sugar use in manufactured goods.

      One of the other problems really is the demonisation of dietary fat as a contributor to heart disease, when they removed fat from products, they had to add salt and sugar to stop the food tasting like cardboard. Of course more recently it’s been shown that dietary fat has little correlation to heart disease and it’s all about the sugar. The substitution of hard to digest fat with easy to digest sugar is making the heat disease epidemic worse. Everyone is ignoring this finding though, big sugar is winning.

      51

      • #
        PeterW

        Sugar comes in many forms, and your body treats most refined starches exactly the same.
        Meanwhile, most hydrogenated vegetable oils are known cancer risks.

        Full disclosure, I grow wheat and have grown canola in the past.

        Again, your stomach, your health, your choices…… but the degree to which “the authorities” have made such gross errors should be a warning. Point remains, we DO put a price on lives.

        50

  • #
    dinn, rob

    yes, virus temporarily gone from NZ. virus not much understood. a few matters remain:
    https://balance10.blogspot.com/2020/06/yuri-deigin-video-interview-concerning.html

    11

  • #
    John Ellwood

    Congratulations NZ but now what?

    20

  • #
    R.B.

    Harvard Study Suggests Wuhan Coronavirus Outbreak Began in August

    When ascertaining whether a particular approach was successful, you need to remember that a lot of hard hit countries had many visitors from China. It might have been widespread for a long time before measures were taken.

    40

  • #
    Bill In Oz

    Brett Walker SJ gets to the heart of the incompetence by NSW Health
    On The Ruby Princess.
    Why did you let 2700 people off the ship ?
    So they could catch their flights home!

    Simply utterly extraordinary

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-10/ruby-princess-disembarked-before-covid-test-results/12335340

    14

  • #
    bobl

    I’ll start the moderation club subthread right here.

    Moderated again- Sigh :-)

    21

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      I wonder if there is list of “Automatic moderation” people – Sin Binners ?
      I had the temerity to argue with AD last weekend ( ? )
      And was warned that I would get close (automatic ) attention from moderators.
      Meanwhile Andy seems to be completely free to launch Ad Homs especially at Fritz.

      25

      • #
        AndyG55

        As Fitz launches ad homs at the whole blog. !

        62

        • #
          el gordo

          Mr Fitz has been exemplary in his conduct, but remains wilfully unaware.

          On the question of moderation, the autoclaw needs WD40 and a bit of tweaking, its too highly strung.

          41

          • #
            PeterW

            Naaah….
            I think he lies because his misrepresentation of reality is too obvious to be reasonably accepted as a fairl-held option…. and lying to someone is a profoundly disrespectful thing to do. It implies that you are ignorant, gullible and not worth respect.

            21

          • #
            AndyG55

            “Mr Fitz has been exemplary in his conduct”

            Sarcasm doesn’t help ;-)

            His unawaremess is absolutely deliberate.

            32

            • #
              el gordo

              Its hard for us to accept irrationality, yet there are others here who fit that MO and get away with it.

              21

              • #
                PeterW

                Gordo….
                Irrationality we can shrug up. There is always one more idiot.
                Fitz is in a different category.

                31

    • #
      PeterW

      I have a post in moderation for mentioning the sovereign State of Papua New Guinea.

      40

      • #
        el gordo

        Its very sensitive today, we have all spent time in the sin bin for no apparent reason. Back on the matter at hand, our leader speaks.

        ‘Scott Morrison has called for the states to open their borders and save the aviation industry, saying ‘this isn’t a partisan issue’. Oz

        21

  • #
    MichiCanuck

    If NZ keeps its international contacts (e.g. tourism from EU, N America, etc) locked down for an extended period of time, they may wind up doing an interesting epidemiological experiment. It will be interesting to see what diseases rip through NZ when they are fully opened up to the world. At that point, a comparison with Sweden might be very instructive.

    20

    • #
      el gordo

      Fully opened to the world does not automatically mean a return to the old days, unless they are Covid and flu free they will be sent home.

      00

      • #
        MichiCanuck

        I hate to break it to you, but Covid-19 is not the only disease in the world. I’m worried that NZ could morph into being like the Pacific Islanders of old, not being able to handle the diseases brought in from the outside world. How long will that process take? I don’t know, but it could be as short as a few flu seasons.

        10

  • #
    Kalm Keith

    Up above it has been stated:

    “Mr Fitz has been exemplary in his conduct,”

    I totally agree, he has continued to exemplify conduct of a particular type and he does that well.

    This “conduct” has been seen and commented on by his fellow contributors here on the blog.

    KK

    21

    • #
      el gordo

      On a whole range of issues he is out of step, but his opinions are heart felt so he is probably genuine. A lot of people I know think like him and try to humiliate me, say I’m singing from the Murdoch song book.

      Fitz is a counterbalance and its up to us to rationally expose his ignorance.

      30

      • #
        PeterW

        Gordo….

        Simply…. NO.
        Fitz misrepresents what we say, then misrepresents the links that he posts in support of his own arguments.

        If he simply posted his own beliefs, we could possibly accept that he was sincere, but idiotic. But to so consistently say that which is not (to borrow from the Aristotelian definition of truth). Requires deliberate intent.

        Therefore he is lying. The best you can say of him is that he is lying to himself, in which case I feel sorry for him because those who lie to themselves cannot trust themselves and that is the road to insanity. He is in a very, very dark place.

        41

        • #
          robert rosicka

          Fitz is driven by ideology and blind faith no amount of verbal jousting is going to change his mind but maybe just maybe if cornered with facts and truth one day the brainwashing will wear off and he will become a skeptic!
          While we’re waiting for that to happen it’s always good to know what the left are up to !

          41

        • #
          el gordo

          Fitz isn’t part of a fifth column or agent provocateur, so his deliberate intent is that of a lone actor who has walked into a minefield and found it stimulating.

          Whenever he lies call him out with facts, as Andy does very successfully. The aim of the game is to get in the last word, simply told and devastating to anyone who might happen to wander by, especially useful with a sprinkle of wit.

          31

        • #
          AndyG55

          Requires deliberate intent.

          Precisely!

          To be so provably WRONG, so often, cannot be an accident of just plain ignorance.

          31

          • #
            el gordo

            ‘In PNT theory, uncertainty is interconnected with ignorance. At the plain level, one finds a lack of factual knowledge—misunderstandings of other cultures, worldviews, and ways of living that leads to fear and loathing of others, contradictory demands for global resources, and a lack of concern for other people’s basic needs: Plain Ignorance.’

            Post Normal Times

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    Bill In Oz

    Meanwhile the European Union is unravelling because of the Corona virus quarantine restrictions imposed by each country as it attempts to prevent infection being imported from over the border..
    In general my own response is “How wonderful.”
    Brexit Europe wide !

    But the Guardian is very worried about this development and wants to stop it. This is worth reading if only to know what the Europhiles are thinking.
    And thus what they will get up to next.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/how-coronavirus-is-reshaping-europe-in-dangerous-ways

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      Bill In Oz

      And closer to home, our universities are in the midst of Corona Virus induced financial catastrophe
      All their lovely fee paying foreign students have gone home or stayed home because of the virus.
      Will they come back ever ?

      The uni’s definitely want them back ASAP. If they don’t come the Uni’s will be forced to sack the hordes of staffers that this profitable business has funded for decades.
      And that would indeed be an existential crisis for the modern universities.
      Could they afford to pay all those peopel researching feminism, queerism transgenderism etc.

      A new future awaits our universities ! A future where they have to pay attention to tax payers and sing for their supper !

      Another incidental by product of the CCP Corona virus.

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        Bill In Oz

        My golly gosh, they might even be forced tolet go some of their climate ‘science’ staff researchers !

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    WXcycles

    There’s a massive tribe of kooks online claiming that quarantine and home isolation won’t work, and don’t work, that if you do nuffin you get the exact same result. Why isolation doesn’t won’t isn’t ever explained, while the uncountable instances where its’ worked (for centuries) is just waved away with a flurry of cognitive-dissonance and unbounded dishonesty. Ordinarily you’d expect that from the loony-Left, but this laughable attitude and these stupid lies are mostly coming from the ratbag-Right fake-’Conservatives’ this time.

    And all those dead people, yeah, they died of sumptin else — and they had it comin’ too! Apparently the economy will be ‘saved’ by making 60 to 80% of the population catch a deadly disease.

    New Zealand has obviously been so stoopid.

    Mask wearing is now also a symbol of how stoopid people are and how much they’ve watched CNN.

    The Left are beyond redemption, as always, but the Right are just as insane right now, they deserve complete contempt, IMO, for their daft narratives during the pandemic. They’re not ‘Conservative’ they’re just incredibly foolish and counterproductive.

    There seems to be a ‘public debate’ process in the USA today that’s governed by psychoactive substance-abuse, smartphones and polarized group-think BS and tactics. They all say, “think for yourself”, but none of them do, the people saying that all parrot the same warped garbage.

    Another benefit of quarantine and home isolation is it cut down on the level of drugs circulating in society, which helped NZ and Australia to exhibit the clarity, judgement and shared interest in decisions necessary to defeat COVID-19. The really bad and wrong to delusional ‘advice’ all seems to originate from people outside of Australia or New Zealand.

    These people should all ask themselves, what is China doing? What are New Zealand and Australia doing? The fact is that China is dealing with COVID-19 incredibly well, they have effectively beaten it, and countries like NZ and Oz are also showing how to do that, cooperatively, which our system, and minus the tyranny and CCP propaganda. The whole western world should be showing China how to succeed, sans an authoritarian tyranny.

    USA and Europe have failed to do so — shame on them.

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      el gordo

      The old world order is plain to see, but do you have a clear vision for the next five years? Headlines like South Sea Bubble breaks with US Alliance.

      ‘ … it cut down on the level of drugs circulating in society …’

      The pandemic had a big impact on international drug consortiums, but down on the street there were more pressing problems, the threat of $1000 fines for leaving the house without an “essential” reason.

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      Opinions are too often generated by perceived self-interest.

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      Bill In Oz

      WXC, The Loony far right are hugely over represented here on Jo Nova.
      It seems to have become a global sheltered workshop for them.
      Meanwhile I have met only one person during this whole pandemic expressing these loony opinions.
      And oddly he is an extreme greenist who ‘fights’ against climate change

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        Kalm Keith

        For once I totally agree.
        The only true test for this underlying issue is if the converse also applies for the opposite point of view.

        Too often the centre right behaves, in many instances, like an exaggerated version of the extreme left and this is very confusing for voters of all ethnicities when devising promotional materials for any particular party; this is very obvious in the Manhattan area.

        The Australian situation is different though and is said by many to have an inverted view of things when compared with New York.
        Complicated.

        KK

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        el gordo

        ‘The Loony far right are hugely over represented here on Jo Nova.’

        Why wasn’t I told? Give me their names and I’ll have a chat with them.

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          AndyG55

          Bit of a mystery to me, too.

          Basic common-sense and rational and logical thoughts seem to be in the majority here.

          Perhaps some might consider that “right-wing”

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    MrGrimNasty

    Looks like ‘sccessful’ S.Korea has just discovered that their success story was just the dip in the big dipper, too early to tell, but doesn’t look good, they are already admitting test and trace won’t stop it if it is a strong second wave.

    This is the problem lockdowners forget – you’ve solved nothing, you’re no further forward, all you’ve done is waste time.

    On the other hand, within a few months Sweden can move on and forget about it, and enjoy the fact that their economy grew in the last quarter.

    Meanwhile in other countries like the UK, thousands are set to die early because cancer referrals and treatment effectively stopped months ago.
    You see – it’s not just the direct virus deaths you have to weigh up, it’s far more complicated than that.

    Yes, just like bad flu?

    “According to the latest immunological and serological studies, the overall lethality of Covid-19 (IFR) is at most 0.1% and thus in the range of a strong seasonal influenza (flu).”

    https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/

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    anothermaninthemirror

    Joanne, you are skeptical about Sweden’s model for dealing with COVID.

    “https://realclimatescience.com/2020/06/no-immunity-versus-herd-immunity/”

    How do you reply the Tony Heller’s posting on his website about Sweden’s response?

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    Ovidiu D

    Not so sure about that, check the updated global stats https://covidbynumbers.com/

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