JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).



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Our daily big-government bread (Unthreaded)

 

 

Our taxpayers give us this day our daily bread,

and forgive us our debts,

as we also have forgiven our debt to our largely free university education,

and lead us not into skeptic temptation but deliver us from evil.

 

Written by Maverick on the site.

 

 


Yes, this is the unthreaded thread this weekend…

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Our daily big-government bread (Unthreaded), 7.9 out of 10 based on 29 ratings

Tiny Url for this post: http://tinyurl.com/mkuwr5x

211 comments to Our daily big-government bread (Unthreaded)

  • #
    meltemian

    You’ve forgotten:-

    …..for ours is the country, the power and the glory.


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  • #
    Andrew McRae

    Oh, no other comments yet. I find it difficult to choose a topic for conversations, but have no trouble meandering once somebody else has started it.

    How about that recent Brain-to-Brain interface experiment.
    On the one hand, scary possibilities, but on the other, look how crude and basic the interface can be and still claim bragging rights on a “World First”. Smells like Science by press release.

    Next step…? Basic on/off switches controlled by a skullcap probably. Still a long long way from planting memories in people’s brain wiring like in Johnny Mnemonic, or Total Recall, or the recent movie Elysium.


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  • #
    bobl

    Given this is an unthreaded thread and no fixed topic, and the election is but a week away. I’d like to ask you all what influences your vote the most. Was it the carbon tax lie, the ongoing cost of the green schemes to your hip pocket, the hypocrisy, the debt? Or it it something else entirely. Why is it that this government is so on the nose?


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    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      1. The Carbon Dioxide tax;

      2. The boats;

      3. The debt;

      4. The deficits;

      5. The corruption;

      6. The lies;

      7. The incompetence and ineptitude;

      8. The anti-development rhetoric;

      9. The union domination of policy; and,

      10. The waste.


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      • #
        Sceptical Sam

        And, the very stupid Mining tax.


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        • #
          Brian G Valentine

          But it makes Greenies so happy! It means their bullying for whatever inane idea crosses their “minds” can be successful.

          *WARNING*

          Greenie appetite for inane exercises is never satisfied


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          • #
            michael hart

            Only organisations like Greenpeace etc would actually wage a campaign against something (carbon dioxide) which actually benefits the green life-forms on this planet (And probably benefits all the other life forms too.)

            Of all the monuments to human hubris, hypocrisy, and stupidity, that is surely a landmark. Like turkeys voting for Christmas and offering to cook the food as well.


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      • #
        Greebo

        What he said, squared. Plus, the divisive nonsensical rhetoric; think 457 visas, or Forrest/Rheinhart. “Deniers”. The Green alliance. Misogyny. Self aggrandisement.


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      • #
        Andrew

        Combination of 3 things:
        - the internally directed hate (Abbott666, miners, business, “millionaires” – ie people who pay a lot of tax, men, the non-sycophant meeja, when it suited boatees, 457s and anyone else “foreign” but in a non-ALP Bankstown branch-stacking way, and pretty much anyone else except the luvvies)
        - a feeling that policies are not pro-Australia, with the World’s Biggest Mining Tax just the most blatant example. Killing the cattle and the fishermen with “marine parks” 100′s of km offshore is utterly outrageous and absurd; likewise killing coal mines on the western side of the Dividing Range to “save the reef” 500km east of them is an obvious play to the UN. As is the pro-boats policies of the Rudd-Gillard-Brown (but not the Rudd2) govts. I’ve never before felt a govt is NOT working for Australia although of course the Watermelons have been traitors pretty much since day 1. I could have almost tolerated the WBCT lie, if it was a policy that was going to be great for the country. But this was just money flushed, with the Enormous Trading Scam going to be money handed to Nigeria to be flushed on our behalf.
        - the debt, not that it’s a LOT of debt by world standards, but the feeling that debt isn’t respected. The lie that debt incurred at peak cycle in 2011 magically affected GFC outcomes. That more debt is great, no matter how much it’s wasted, and that anyone who wants to stop running up new debt is a traitor. Debt was incurred to knock-down / rebuild school halls, for crying out loud! Can there ever have been a lower Keynesian multiplier than that??


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    • #
      Graeme No.3

      The incompetence.

      There didn’t seem to be anything they could do that had been given any thought first. They seemed to have been obsessed with getting headlines, regardless of the consequences. Very like Mussolini but without the talent.


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    • #
      Greg Cavanagh

      The lies.

      The backstabbing of their own (kinda like eating their young).

      The complete incompitance.

      The complete blinkered view of themsleves, the people they rule, and the world.

      Their utter aragance.


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  • #
    Mark D.

    What happened to Michael? Did someone stomp on his bicycle?

    I’d like to encourage everyone to go back to the old threads he bombed and add a post or two just to balance them out some.

    Good riddance Michael…..I sure wish you would have answered my questions before you left.


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    • #
      Brian G Valentine

      I think “Michael” and the long-standing blog troll David Appell are one in the same person.

      If not, congratulations to “Michael” for an outstanding imitation of blog troll David Appell.


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    • #

      Not at all. I have been emailing with Michael this week. It’s been interesting. Expect to hear from him soon. I understand the frustration of commenters here.
      I hope we can find a better path.

      Blackadder though does not seem to want to comment if he has to write his thoughts in text.


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      • #
        Brian G Valentine

        I have been emailing with Michael this week

        You’re a better person than I am; I couldn’t take it


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      • #
        Rereke Whakaaro

        Blackadder though does not seem to want to comment if he has to write his thoughts in text.

        That is not true – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfqsdFroblg


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      • #

        Jo, given the increasingly heated comments on “Consensus Police” I am surprised you have not blocked him.

        I found Michael has his own blog – Mr Fab’s Blog – where is detailed the extent of his knowledge on global warming. :)

        Michael has taken to taken to commenting on my blog here and here, trying to rebut my debunking of his arguments. I think my answers are valid, but he never seems to acknowledge anything I say.
        One thing I learnt from Michael’s comments. He points to the Pages2K global temperature reconstructions, as being “proof” that C20th warming was unusual. Page2k will be used in the forthcoming AR5. The proxy reconstructions for the Arctic and Europe show little or no warming post 1950. Yet one of the main reasons for GISSTEMP (and HADCRUT4) showing greater warming than HADCRUT3 post 1975 is that the former gives greater prominence to the alleged Arctic warming through modelling. It is one of those data anomalies that, I believe, if properly understood could further scientific understanding.


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      • #
        Heywood

        Michael’s problem is a failure to acknowledge that others are entitled to form an opinion contrary to his own.

        I am curious as to why he is so desperate to post on this blog. Most warmist trolls would have given up by now and moved onto another blog. He obviously feels that you have a particular influence and wants to shoot it down any way he can.


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        • #
          Mark

          I am curious as to why he is so desperate to post on this blog.

          That’s easy Heywood. No hits on his site, plenty here and other “denier”…..oops, sorry….sceptical sites.


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      • #
        Carbon500

        I’d like to see a mandatory requirement that views on the man-made CO2 warming saga are backed up with references – research papers or books by professional authors in whatever field is being discussed. No YouTube links please!
        The ‘skeptics’ are often as guilty as the ‘warmists’. Often I’ve seen an interesting comment made – but where’s the information come from? It doesn’t take a minute or two to type in a reference, and is a scientific way of commenting. References save a lot of time wasting looking for sources, and also give credibility to the person posting the comment – they show that some thinking has gone on. I have certain ‘trolls’ in mind here!


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        • #

          On a blog like this, most of the comments should not need references. Except for the “unthreaded”, the comments should refer to the article. References should help support or provide counter-arguments.
          I used to enjoy some of the people who came to support the alarmism. However, their arguments were so shallow that all they could do was irritate and cause distraction. Along with creating prejudice, and arguing from unearned authority, this is all the believers have got left.

          By the way, Michael is commenting over at my blog. Earlier today (It is still Sunday here in England) he very helpfully provided me with some references to help me become a little less ignorant of basic physics. He starts and with a comment about common sense (italics mine)

          This is the big problem as I see it. The internet has made everybody assume they are an expert. I can’t teach you physics in a post. I have been learning about physics for years, and thats just the physics without all the maths. The world is so amazing that most real science is unintuitive, you cannot understand it with ‘common sense notions’.
          The internet has been making the human race dumber but thinking they know more, and not leaving science to the scientists.

          This comment about common sense I wholeheartedly agree with as science advances our knowledge by challenging wisdom based on customs and superficial logic.

          Joannova will not take me off the moderation list, so I have stopped commenting there. She is obviously to threatened by the common sense argument and science I have been presenting.

          This comment about common sense I wholeheartedly disagree with. It is not that Michael is wrong (which he is), but that science advances our knowledge by challenging wisdom based on customs and superficial logic. But we are social beings who need customs and (some) shared values to function in advance societies. There is a tension here, that can never properly be resolved. Popper said the true scientist is one who puts the scientific method before a particular hypothesis. But when your life’s work is challenged, as a human being you will try to defend it, not rejoice that some upstart has falsified it. That is why declaring the truth of global warming from authority to support that argument is both a profoundly human and profoundly anti-scientific thing to do.


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        • #
          bobl

          Respectfully disagree, its not about references, while references are useful they are an appeal to authority, by insisting on them you imply the the commenter has no competence of their own. If the commenters arguments hold up on their own then there is no need for a reference. What is required is that commenters back up there claims with something, either references, math or logical thought.

          Foe example I disagree with the CAGW hypothesis not because of any references but because I did the math on a few things, and a few points of high school science… lets take a brief look.

          CO2 is plant food

          Projection of actual warming including all feedbacks VS Actual CO2 rise ie
          C ln(400/280) is 0.7 what is C ln(560/280) = 1.4

          Logic that shows you need positive feedbacks in the climate system at an unsustainable level (loop gain of about 0.95) to satisfy the conditions for a total gain of 3 over CO2 warming alone (Math is a little too complicated for here in this comment but happy to detail it) IE the Feedback required is physically impossible.

          An observation that an extrapolation of 33 degree rise from blackbody, for 85% capture of energy in CO2 stopband to 100% delivers a 5.6 degree rise (IE if the atmosphere were 100% CO2). Where the IPCC 3-6 degrees per doubling presumes that up to 78 degree rise could happen for the same condition. IE 33 degrees is caused by 85 % of the energy being trapped, the IPCC reckons we’ll get 78 degree rise for the other 15% when the function between the two is logarithmic (Yeah right, pull the other one) – I contend this is impossible and absolute maximum of 5.6 is the right answer.

          None of this needs papers – the math stands alone unless some enterprising person somewhere can shoot it down. No-one ever has, though Monkton has tried, but he is wrong and doesn’t understand my argument properly.

          By the way (for Jo’s benefit). Monkton’s feedback argument is pretty good but it doesn’t go far enough, his estimate of positive feedback required does not include the feedback necessary to overcome the negative feedbacks in the system. It is wrong to focus on Nett feedback because the feedbacks are not related, they occur over different timeframes, one can’t simply add and subtract them as scalar numbers because they are complex numbers – he needs to refine that argument properly.


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      • #
        Carbon500

        There are interesting comments here re. my earlier posting on references. I really do find references useful, because it helps to know what the other person’s thinking, and where their views have come from.
        ‘Michael’ gets a lot of flak.
        However, when I asked him for references for the ocean acidification saga, he kindly supplied this link: http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/file/Hawaii+Carbon+Dioxide+Time-Series
        This is a graph from a seemingly reliable source.
        Take a look at the bottom line – it’s a nice straight line showing seawater pH decreasing seemingly with a corresponding rise in atmospheric levels of CO2. However, I see a levelling of the points about year 200 onwards, with the same for pCO2.
        Michael however is convinced by this graph, and that pH levels are continuing to fall.
        Cynical disbeliever that I am, I think that there’s something far more complex going on here that’s being missed or ignored.


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    • #
      Angry

      “Michael” was probably one of the campaign staff who was let go……..

      http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/rudd_cracks/


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  • #
    Sceptical Sam

    1. The Carbon Dioxide tax;

    2. The boats;

    3. The debt;

    4. The deficits;

    5. The corruption;

    6. The lies;

    7. The incompetence and ineptitude;

    8. The anti-development rhetoric;

    9. The union domination of policy; and,

    10. The waste.


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  • #
    Ian Hill

    Or as Ian Dury sang on his Apples album:

    Bus Drivers’ Prayer

    Give us this day our birth instead and
    Forgive us our Westminsters
    As we forgive those who Westminster against us
    Lead us not into Temple Station
    But deliver us from Eeling…


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    • #
      Angry

      Our prayer for the alp & greens……………..

      “Pray for You” by Jaron and The Long Road to Love – LYRICS

      Haven’t been in church since
      I don’t remember when
      Things were going great
      Til they fell apart again
      So I listened to the preacher
      As he told me what to do
      Said you cant go hating others
      who done wrong to you
      Sometimes we get angry
      But we must not condemn
      Let the good Lord do his job
      And you just pray for them

      I pray your brakes go out
      Running down a hill
      I pray and flower pot falls
      From a window sill
      And knocks you in the head like Id like to
      I pray your birthday comes and nobody calls
      I pray your flying high when your engine stalls
      I pray all your dreams never come true
      Just know wherever you are
      Honey, I pray for you

      Really glad I found my way to church
      Cause I’m already feeling better and I thank God for the words
      So I’m gonna take the high road
      And do what the preacher told me to do
      You keep messing up
      And Ill keep praying for you

      I pray your tire blows out at 110
      I pray you pass out with your best friend
      And wake up with his and her tattoos

      Wherever you are, near or far, in your house or in your car
      Wherever you are honey, I pray for you.


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  • #
    Rod Stuart

    They aren’t even trying to hide it anymore.


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  • #
    Tim

    Dr. Ben Santer’s 17-year test: if there is no warming for 17 years, the models are wrong.

    But wait. Do you think facts will get in the way of a good income stream? Not according to the ‘experts’ with their insightful, hypothetical reasoning:

    “If the pause is a temporary natural offset to the man-made rise, then this offset would disappear at some stage and put the globe back on the central estimate track”
    “But even though the heating may be slower, the scientists still believe temperatures will eventually climb to 4°C above pre-industrial levels, well above danger levels.”
    “Global temperature rise would stall or even reverse for a few years before picking back up again.”
    “Ocean layers deeper than 1,000 feet (300 meters) as the main location of the missing heat during periods such as the past decade when global air temperatures showed little trend.”

    (Looks like we’re all still doomed, the income factor persists whatever the global temperatures.)


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  • #
    Roy Hogue

    I don’t get a chance to look in for a while and what do I find? Nothing’s really changed. Have you ever noticed how today’s news looks just like yesterday’s, which looks like last week’s, which looks like last month’s… It gets depressing to be honest about it.

    Australia, instead of talking about it go vote down every damned fool you can. But be careful who you put in instead because they’ll almost always eventually become corrupt.

    Never trust a politician who says he wants to do something for you. Never trust someone who puts the welfare of the UN and the rest of the world ahead of your welfare. Never trust the government to be looking out for you. Never accept anything free, for it will enslave you.


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  • #

    Say, this is after all an Unthreaded Post.

    Let’s try something uplifting for a short time anyway.

    How about, as a collective, we post a link to a song we individually like.

    I’ll start with something that’s now 26 years old, and as beautiful today as it was when I first heard it.

    On The Turning Away

    No more turning away
    From the weak and the weary
    No more turning away
    From the coldness inside
    Just a world that we all must share
    It’s not enough just to stand and stare
    Is it only a dream that there’ll be
    No more turning away?

    Tony.


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    • #
      Roy Hogue

      A magnificent idea, Tony. Unfortunately I have no link to the music I love most dearly, the work of Hank Williams. But let’s start with his singing,

      No matter how I struggle and strive;
      I’ll never get out of this world alive.

      which should tell us all to treasure each day as though it might be our last. Today I’m alive and I shall enjoy the company of family, friends and the activities I like no matter what problems may beset me.

      Then there’s the magnificent, larger than life work of Beethoven and the delicate, intricate work of Mozart. Their music has no words but it speaks to me nevertheless.

      Let’s hear from others on this topic!


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      • #
        Bulldust

        Could try looking for The The, who covered Williams in Honky Tonkin’. Little factoid, Trent Reznor of NIN is a big fan of The The’s, Matt Johnson’s lyric writing.

        My collection also includes Mozart and Dread Zeppekin … yes, Dread. Saw them live in a small pub in Tucson once … lot of fun.


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        • #
          Roy Hogue

          So, Bulldust, you like Hank Williams?


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          • #
            Bulldust

            Can’t say I have listened to him … I was brought up on Bowie and Monty Python … which explains a lot /nod


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            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              That is really, really, sad.


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            • #
              Roy Hogue

              Was just curious after your comment. Bowie and Williams aren’t exactly compatible, at least to me. But in music it’s always, to each his own.

              I wasn’t exactly brought up on Hank Williams. My father wouldn’t have played any of his music on a bet. I actually became a Hank Williams fan much later in life. So you never know what influences someone’s taste in music.

              I politely ignored Dread Zeppelin and will continue to do so. ;-)


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              • #
                Greebo

                I politely ignored Dread Zeppelin and will continue to do so

                It’s a pity so many people have a negative perception of the Zep, probably brought on by the band themselves. Led Zeppelin were an astonishingly good blues band, if unoriginal. They are also possibly the reason I am now reasonably deaf. Please, I’m not looking for converts…, I can’t listen to them either. However, this gives an idea of the musical talents of Page and Plant.


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              • #
                Roy Hogue

                Greebo,

                The statement had nothing to do with what I might think of LED/Dread Zeppelin. I was simply not going to add any more teasing back at Bulldust.

                I’m not exactly sure Dread was actually a reference to Led Zep. Perhaps Bulldust can clarify?


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              • #
                Mark D.

                Roy, Dread Zeppelin is definitely NOT Led Zeppelin! Google is your friend (this time)…..


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              • #
                Roy Hogue

                Mark,

                (this time)

                Thanks!

                Google may or may not turn up what I want and unless it’s important enough to justify fighting with a gazillion hits I don’t bother. The Internet is a zoo and a better one than the very good Los Angeles and San Diego zoos for strange critters. I can offer you some perfectly legitimate searches that will swamp you with stuff you might have trouble believing.


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      • #

        Roy,

        ah! Hank Williams.

        How can anyone say that they don’t like Hank.

        An astounding body of work in such a brief comet trail.

        One of his that I really do like is his cover of the blind balladeer Leon Payne’s Lost Highway.

        Lost Highway

        I’m a rolling stone, all alone and lost
        For a life of sin, I have paid the cost
        When I pass by, all the people say
        “Just another guy on the lost highway”

        Tony.


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        • #
          Rod Stuart

          Our Cockatoo likes Willie Nelson.
          This one might be appropriate for this blog.


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        • #
          Rod Stuart

          How about this tony?


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        • #
          Roy Hogue

          Tony,

          I finally found a link to this song I was looking for. It’s is not original with Hank. The Sons of the Pioneers did it first and actually one of them wrote it. But this blew me away the first time I heard it. It’s just Hank, alone with his voice and his guitar. I think it was probably a demonstration recording that was never released. You can feel the burning thirst in the words, “Cool Water.”


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          • #

            Hey thanks Roy,

            first time I’ve heard Hank singing that.

            Usually, it’s just the Vaughn Monroe or the Frankie Laine version, or even the Marty Robbins one from that amazing album Gunfighter Ballads.

            Tony.


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          • #
            Bob Malloy

            Roy, that’s a first for me as well,not bad. :-)

            Tony, I agree Gunfighter Ballads, amazing. When it comes to cool water I was always a fan of Marty but by the narrowest margin I prefer Franky Laine. I also have strong memories of the Hamilton Marist Brother’s choir (Newcastle,NSW Aus) doing an excellent rendition about 1960, at their annual presentation night.


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        • #
          Roy Hogue

          How can anyone say that they don’t like Hank. (sic)

          It seems to be pretty easy. My wife, for one, can’t stand him. The world is full of ironies for sure.


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        • #

          There was a comment on an earlier Thread about how one of our Commenters had a dislike for the Oz actor Bryan Brown, because of his AGW stance.

          It made me think of a song from Karma County that he narrated, and I’m willing to bet not many of you have heard this song.

          Dexter And Sinistra

          As you watch the clip, be thankful for Mike Nesmith, the man who invented the movie clip for music videos and invented MTV, thanks mainly to an (umm) obscure Australian Music show called Countdown.

          Tony.


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          • #
            farmerbraun

            Kevvy mate, nice of you to drop in. Joolya , glad you could make it, honey. It’s farmer braun’s shout. Yes , you two love birds ; the drinks are on me:-

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtswEs6vq7c


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            • #

              farmerbraun,

              Hey that’s cool.

              Go to 1.03 mark in the clip, and watch the next 17 seconds.

              You’d almost swear it was Kevvy, Bob Brown and Julia.

              Tony.


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              • #
                Yonniestone

                Tony great idea, however having a very eclectic taste in music I would find it impossible to nail down a favorite song.
                Having said that a while back I found footage that I saw as a child that left a lasting impression of what a great performer should be, and viewing it again made me appreciate it even more and I am left asking is this the best performance ever recorded?
                This is the last 2 songs of the set that build up and up to a remarkable crescendo of sight and sound, and consider the Rolling Stones had to follow this next at the concert, I give you Mr James Brown,
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54y_XDKNxPg


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              • #

                Yonniestone,

                it wasn’t a case of nailing down just one song, because I also have a hugely wide ranging taste in Music, well, except for maybe Rap, although Marshall Mathers III has a couple of good ones, and perhaps Opera, well, except maybe for a couple of Luciano’s wonderful pieces.

                Lost in time is the dawn of some of the modern music genres, perhaps Blondie crossing rap into the mainstream with Rapture, perhaps Techno starting with Kraftwerk’s Autobahn, Big Bill Broonzy (just one of many) with the Blues, Dmitri Shostakovich with perhaps some of the most beautiful Classical Music, and perhaps the very first million selling song, The Entertainer, written in 1902 by Scott Joplin, and here, where I say million selling, you wonder, and in this case he sold more than one million copies of ….. the sheet music, and close to a million copies of the Piano Roll.

                I could go on ….. and on ….. and on, (like I usually do) because Music has so many genres, and the endless choice of good music from all of them is just that ….. endless.

                Tony.


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                Yonniestone

                Yes it’s good to have a wide range of tastes in music, you have more to choose from to suit your mood :)
                I witnessed the start of rap and there was a great doco on this a while back, some early Pink Floyd was considered early techno and blues music may have had the greatest influence on modern rock/pop.
                I’m a big fan of ballads in the style of Bee Gees, Air Supply, ELO etc and people are surprised by this given my appearance :) , my favorite classical piece is Beethoven’s Romance no2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULbfVgaMfdE truly heart wrenching beauty.
                From one of my favorite movies “Withnail & I” is King Curtis’ version of “Whiter Shade of Pale” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI8d36w_ijw just sit back and get taken away with this one, the movie has one of the best scripts ever written.


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              • #

                When I was with the RAAF and based at Williamtown, I would try and buy one album every pay Friday, and I still have those more than 400 LP’s now, and this was at a time when an LP cost $4.99.

                There was one tiny little record shop, which if it had four people inside, then it was full up. The owner knew me and each week he would mention something new to me, and he put me onto more music that I like than I could have done on my own.

                He knew I liked Pink Floyd, and in mid ’76, he mentioned a new album from someone I hadn’t heard before as an artist, The Alan Parsons Project, and Alan engineered Dark Side, and was the studio engineer at Abbey Road, working for The Beatles, The Hollies, McCartney and numerous others, starting out with Floyd on Atom Heart Mother.

                The album he pointed me to was the Project’s first album, Tales Of Mystery and Imagination – Edgar Alan Poe.

                Amazing album, especially on side two, with the 16 minute opus The Fall Of The House Of Usher, and played with a good stereo headset, you hear the approaching storm, the lightning and then the crack of thunder as it peals across the top of your head. It gets you every time because it is so unexpected and so realistic.

                His second album I Robot from ’77 was undoubtedly his best stuff.

                I have six of his albums, mostly concept stuff, but all of it really good.

                Here’s a wonderful song from Pyramid.

                The Shadow Of A Lonely Man

                Incidentally, Alan Parsons holds the (somewhat dubious) honour of receiving the most Grammy nominations without winning one of them, 11 nominations in all.

                Sadly, he should have been a dead set cert for Dark Side, which never won a Grammy in any category, despite being on the Billboard album charts for 741 weeks, most of them consecutively, the longest stay in those charts for any album.

                Tony.


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                farmerbraun

                My favourite from that King Curtis Fillmore concert was the band walkon :-

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRuLc2d5x5g


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                Yonniestone

                Wow over 400 LP’s original production that survived, well done, I was introduced to Parsons in the 80′s an overlooked genius for sure, a mate who played blues on a fender gold top through a fender valve amp used to play heaps of LP’s I never heard of and they sounded incredible through that amp (the neighbors didn’t think so) :)
                One song from the “Return of the living dead” soundtrack is Roky Erickson (we look similar) I’ll post it here just to piss off any warmists lurking, enjoy :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irOGc0nxI-w


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          • #

            Hey, I know it’s only a song, but I’m surprised no one has picked up on it and related it back to Tony Abbott and Kevin Rudd, not the actual song per se, Dexter And Sinsitra, but the two actual words, and here think Latin Derivation.

            Tony.


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          Greebo

          I said to Hank Williams: how lonely does it get?
          Hank Williams hasn’t answered yet
          But I hear him coughing all night long
          A hundred floors above me
          In the Tower of Song

          Leonard Cohen


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        Geoff Sherrington

        Someone calculated that the entire known works of Mozart account for just 8 hours of each year of his life.


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        Annie

        Tom Lehrer for a good cynical laugh. Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, et al for general enjoyment. The last movement of Beethoven’s Choral Symphony for out-of-this world sublimity. Tallis and all that crowd for beauty and peace, especially when sung by The Sixteen or The Tallis Scholars. This is a far from comprehensive list but these things all console me when I feel the world is totally crazy and unbearable.

        Sorry, no links but I guess no one needs them who loves any of these.


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          Roy Hogue

          Mozart, Beethoven and Brahms will certainly do it for me too — absolutely inspired directly from heaven. The Mozart piano concerto #21, second movement is the best thing in the classical repertoire but there are a lot of close seconds, Beethoven’s 5th piano concerto being one of them. There’s almost too much to choose from.


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      Backslider

      Bruce Cockburn – 1973

      Mama Just Wants To Barrelhouse All Night Long

      Listen


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      Andrew McRae

      You invite music tracks, then post a link to a song containing possibly the 2nd best guitar solo by arguably the world’s greatest ever guitarist with lyrics from the world’s greatest band.
      You wouldn’t happen to be…. playing it safe would you Tony? :)

      Actually I hadn’t heard that Floyd track before as I’ve mostly heard tracks off Dark Side of The Moon. So thanks for that.

      Ditto with this Lost Highway tune. Never heard of Hank Williams but with just one listen I can see the appeal of it. As with all songs, they can’t make you feel anything that you haven’t experienced before, but a heartfelt rendition can trigger memories for those who’ve “loved and lost”. See now I know I’m getting older because I would never have said that when I was younger. I mean, talk about stereotypes: A crusty drunk guy strumming a guitar slowly while singing slightly out of tune about how he wishes his wife would come back to him. I can already hear my younger self saying “But that’s a boring song moaning about lost love and you can’t even dance to it!” Which pretty much gives away my own leanings.

      You can have your blokey-style country singers and that’s all well and good for its purpose, which I assume to be sympathetic sentimentality targeted at men. But there are other forms of music with a different purpose which also justifies their stereotypical format. I still have a soft spot for dance tracks sung by chicks with cute voices. The favourite I’ll link to is a song that was never a dance track originally, but the song itself is so good that the essential highlights of the original are not merely preserved in the dance remake but in my opinion are enhanced by the rework. Plus it has a heavier beat because it’s for dancing so probably sounds unpalatable for anyone who hasn’t “been there done that”. So with the customary amount of navel gazing and caveats out of the way, here’s one of my favourites…

      ‘Ordinary World’ by Aurora featuring Naimee Coleman (dance remix)

      The original by Duran Duran is also quite good and I actually prefer the original guitar solo in this one.
      ‘Ordinary World’ by Duran Duran (original studio version).
      Heck, even when performed live and unplugged they made it sound good.

      I was horrified to discover there is even a “Gregorian Chant” style version of this song… nope, not going to link to it! The singers and producers should be tried for crimes against humanity. :D


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        Greebo

        a song containing possibly the 2nd best guitar solo by arguably the world’s greatest ever guitarist with lyrics from the world’s greatest band.

        Sorry, but without Watars, it’s just Gilmour, Mason and some guys. Floyd may well have been the greatest band once, but not after the split. Might as well listen to U2. ‘Oh, by the way, which one’s Pink?’.


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          Richard of NZ

          Who is this “Watars” of whom you speak? Pink Floyd was never the same after Sid has his brush with money (lysergic acid diethylamide to the ignorant). I did hear that the group recruited some wet behind the ears guitarist but he decided he liked heroin more than making progressive music and caused a final breakup.


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            Greebo

            Who is this “Watars” of whom you speak?

            That’s Rager Watars, of course. While Mr Barrett should be mourned, There’s no way Floyd was a great band in the sense that Andrew suggested ( an assumption based on his admitting to only knowing Dark Side ) back then. I have all the early Floyd on vinyl, but simply cannot bring myself to listen to them. Wish You Were Here, on the other hand, gets a run frequently. The Wall was their Magnum Opus, but is far better appreciated when performed by Wata(e)rs and his amazing lineup on the ‘Live in Berlin” version.
            And, yes, drugs caused havoc, as is their wont, with all of the players, with the possible exception of Nick Mason, who appears to only have become addicted to Ferraris.


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              Say, let’s not get caught up in how Floyd was good or bad without Roger. It’s an evolutionary thing. Even I was sad when he left following The Final Cut. Roger mentioned at the time that Floyd was a spent force.

              His solo career was a good one, and there was all sorts of legal action he took to prevent Floyd using the name, and that was settled later.

              In 1987 Roger released a great album Radio K.A.O.S. (his second solo after leaving Floyd) and Floyd released A Momentary Lapse Of Reason.

              I was surprised when I heard Lapse, and that was a pleasant surprise.

              Roger toured KAOS and Floyd toured Lapse around the same time, later released as The Delicate Sound Of Thunder.

              The Lapse tour was scheduled for around 3 Months, just the US and Canada. At one city on that tour Waters and Floyd played on consecutive nights. Waters drew a few thousand and Floyd drew upwards of 50,000. That’s no real comment, because Floyd was using the Floyd name, hence the draw, but really, if the music was not good then no one would have turned up.

              That original 3 Month tour then evolved into a World tour, and after the washup, the tour lasted just short of 2 years and 197 concerts to a total crowd around 5.5 million and gross takings (minus promotional goodies) of around $150 Million. So, it was obviously good music. Because of that Floyd was the biggest grossing band of both 1987 and 88, grossing more than double the next two majors at the time, U2 and Michael Jackson combined.

              Incidentally, Clare Torry sang those soaring vocals on Dark Side’s The Great Gig In The Sky. She ended up doing it in one hit. For the Lapse tour, they hired three female backing vocalists and not one of them could do it in one go, so they each had a third share in the concert version of the song.

              That is better explained here at my own Post on that song.

              In 1994 Floyd released The Division Bell, which incidentally garnered the band’s only Grammy Award, ironically for an Instrumental, Marooned.

              The Division Bell was the last vinyl LP I ever purchased brand new, in a sealed shrink wrapped plastic sheath, and to this day I haven’t opened it. It’s a picture album as well, with the image in the vinyl itself.

              Oddly, the only vinyl of Floyd’s (14 Studio Albums) that I do not have is A Momentary Lapse Of Reason, which was the first CD I ever purchased.

              Wish You Were Here is my favourite Floyd album, but hey they’re all good.

              Music is as you perceive it. Each new piece is part of the evolution.

              Even Roger later revealed that some of the stuff on Lapse was good, that he wouldn’t have minded playing on.

              Either way, It’s all good.

              Tony.


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        Roy Hogue

        As with all songs, they can’t make you feel anything that you haven’t experienced before, but a heartfelt rendition can trigger memories for those who’ve “loved and lost”.

        Very true, Andrew. But good music has to stir up something inside of you where you live. If it doesn’t evoke an emotional response it’s not doing its job. I went around for a while with a girlfriend who liked elevator music — you know what I mean, offend no one but please no one either. I always wondered why she bothered.

        But as I said earlier, with music it’s, to each his own.


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      How’s about this

      “Quick to judge
      Quick to anger
      Slow to understand
      Ignorance and prejudice
      And fear walk hand in hand…”

      from “Witch Hunt” by a band called Rush. It’s about Salem but it’s also a metaphor for every time we descend into irrational and destructive groupthink behaviour I suspect. Thats how I read it anyway.


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      Brill

      Usually favourite songs mean something to us or trigger some emotion in us. Over the years different songs have struck a chord with me. I can distinctly remember understanding one song after being on anti-depresants for a few months. No longer need medication but the song is still special.

      I can see clearly now the rain has gone.
      I can see all obstacles in my way.
      Gone are the dark clouds that had me down.
      It’s gonna be a bright bright bright sun shiny day.


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      Jon

      Always look on the bright side of life……


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    Aboat

    Remarkable. You’re all Coalition voters.

    What a surprise.

    And yet, the Coalition has a CO2 reduction scheme.

    Go figure.


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      Graeme No.3

      I would be very surprised if they all voted for the Coalition in normal times.
      The only thing Labor has been good at, is convincing the vast majority that they would be better off without Labor.

      As for the Coalition’s direct action policy, I’m a supporter. Not because I believe it will make the slightest difference to the climate, but for the side effects of improving soil fertility and water retention. There are several well known supporters on the Left as well. Clive Blazey of the Digger’s Club is a full on believer in AGW but supports the Coalition approach as more effective.


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        Geoff Sherrington

        Clive Blazey gave an address that I endured until question time, when a big brawl erupted. His thoughts are not profound.
        But then, the Garden Show last week on ABC mentioned “an area of a cubic metre.”
        You can’t really combat ignorance until you improve the quality of education and throw the product into a competitive world.


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          Graeme No.3

          Geoff:
          “His thoughts are not profound”. Agreed, but he was, like many believers in AGW, just repeating what he was told.

          This time there is a good deal of evidence that it does work, from farmers who have worked to ‘drought proof’ their farms. Sorry, but don’t have the books available anymore. The idea is partly ‘organic’ i.e. make sure your soil is in good condition, and partly common sense. Many good farmers have adopted much of this practice ‘because it works’.

          It really has nothing to do with burying carbon in the soil, as Blazey thinks. In my opinion he doesn’t know what carbon looks like. It involves burying or applying compost or manure to the soil, not over grazing, putting in trees/shrubs as wind breaks to lessen evaporation or runoff etc. It takes time measured in years.

          The end result is a deeper soil layer with plant roots penetrating deeply and therefore not as prone to short periods of no rain.


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      Rereke Whakaaro

      Remarkable. You’re all Coalition voters.

      Now you point it out, that seems to be true.

      I work alongside a lot of Australians, and every single one of them reckons they will vote Coalition this time, mostly because of the stupid policies that Labour adopted to stitch the last Government together, but also because of their childish antics, and revolving door Prime Minister rivalry. “Like, who is running the country, today?”

      Of course, some of them will still vote Labour, when it comes to the crunch, but they don’t want to admit that in polite company. Who wants to be a social pariah?


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      AndyG55

      Yes, It would be nice if there were a major party with a realistic viewpoint.

      One that has seen through the climate propaganda and realised that raised atmospheric CO2 levels are actually beneficial to the world.

      Unfortunately, one has to make a choice of choosing the least bad option, and Labor under Rudd is probably one of the worst governments we have ever had in this country.

      One hopes the Liberals will be at least marginally less awful !! Time will tell.


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      MadJak

      Aboat – I’m not a coalition voter because my views as a taxpayer don’t count (in either Australia or NZ), but I must admit, if I could vote for them this time around, I would. The reason is simple, the LNP structure is not structured around the communist class warfare myth of the 1950s.

      The LNP also don’t pander to the remaining communist party – the greens.

      Oh, and breaking away from the naive, petty, self centred, myopic and stupid people we have seen since 2007 would be a bonus.


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      AndyG55

      ps… So let me guess..

      You are going to vote for the stability and reason and common sense that is Kevin Rudd..

      Seriously ?????????


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      handjive

      Congratulations on visting this website where they deal in truth, aboat.
      Throw away your prejudices aboat, because today you’re about learn something. Go figure.
      .
      It is now universally accepted that the carbon tax is a very bad thing promoted by evil people.

      The evil goes back a bit further than Julia Gillard’s broken promise and Kevin Rudd’s inane pronouncements.
      This tax has been a long time coming, and has mixed paternity.

      The last dark deed of the Howard Government was the passage of the National Greenhouse and Energy Reporting Act in October 2007.
      That act is the auditing basis of the carbon tax.

      Mr Howard’s plan was to get the auditing system bedded down, then start taxing.
      Labor’s carbon tax would be a couple of years behind schedule if Mr Howard had not laid the bureaucratic foundations for it.”
      .
      Just the facts, aboat.
      Some. if not most here want to right this wrong.
      Understand that & go figure.


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      MemoryVault

      Remarkable. You’re all Coalition voters.

      That’s a big call, floatie.
      Not all of us are foolish enough to fall for the old election scam.

      George Carlin says it best.

      (Caution: coarse language).


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      Tim

      Aboat; you will very soon be rudderless.


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    Uplifting?

    We are still alive. Because of that, we CAN do something about the situation we find ourselves in. Maybe not much by each but every little bit helps.

    Considering the first recorded shot by the “progressives” was by Kant (1724–1804) who laid the ground work for the post modern era of anti-mind, anti-life, and anti-reality. The “progressives” have spent over 200 years and have extinguished hundreds of millions of lives to accomplish their goal of total negation of everything human and have not quite done it.

    In that same interval, living men of mind dedicated to the understanding of reality and living in it, built the modern world by creating the scientific revolution, the industrial revolution, and a technological civilization that spanned much of the globe. Along the way, they established the first nation founded on the idea that men own themselves and that government was their servant rather than master. The idea spread in one form or another to other nations. There was and is a causal connection between the idea, its spread, and what followed.

    None of this was easy nor thought likely of success at the beginning but something very good came out of it. This in spite of the vast forces of opposition at every step along the way. This is how we know a return to and advancement beyond is possible. It happened once and it can happen again.

    Remember these simple founding ideas:

    You exist as an individual who owns his life and its products. By the ownership of your life, you also have the right to action based upon your best interests. YOUR happiness is your purpose. You have no undeniable obligation to others except not to violate their individual rights as you expect them not to violate yours. So also every other individual on earth.

    Society, a nation, the collective, the gang, the tribe have no existence beyond the individuals who agree to belong. As such, the group has no right beyond the rights of each individual member of the group. The group has no right to own what is owned by another. In this context it means no right to slaves.

    The only way to violate the rights of individuals is by the initiation of force or fraud against them.

    Any individual or group of individuals who initiate force or fraud have thereby lost all claim to their rights being recognized and may be dealt with by any means necessary by their victims and all other rights respecting individuals.

    If we can establish and sustain at least this much, the rest is much easier.


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      Rereke Whakaaro

      Thank you Lionell. We all need reminding of that, from time to time.


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      Mike Smith

      Sadly a activist minority have persuaded a passive majority that those rights should be made subservient to the aspirations of the collective.

      Orwell and Huxley tried to warn us of the consequences of same. Unfortunately, the reality will prove enormously more horrible than the somewhat distasteful scenarios they painted.

      Still, I am confident the owners of the government plantation will take good care of us…


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    mwhite

    http://vimeo.com/64032010

    “We row into Cambridge Bay, Nunavut this afternoon – August 28th, 2013 to officially conclude the Mainstream Last First expedition.”

    So much for doing the NW passage

    http://mainstreamlastfirst.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/mainstreamlastfirst-route-map-2013.jpg

    “At many Eastern places of NWP locals have not seen this type ice conditions. Residents of Resolute say 20 years have not seen anything like. Its, ice, ice and more ice. Larsen, Peel, Bellot, Regent and Barrow Strait are all choked. That is the only route to East. Already West Lancaster received -2C temperature expecting -7C on Tuesday with the snow.””

    http://mainstreamlastfirst.com/


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      Brian G Valentine

      Among other meaningless objectives, this foray was designed to demonstrate how “stupid” “deniers” were.

      Ask Pen Hadow just how “stupid” “deniers” are.


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      Graeme No.3

      As far as I can make out, they got a third of the way planned.

      Seems to have been a pointless publicity stunt, but then the greens are good at those.


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        Brian G Valentine

        They are lucky they didn’t kill themselves on sharp ice slicing their canoe in half.

        Pen Hadow is fortunate not to have killed himself and two others along with him. Hadow was goaded by the nincompoop Prince of Wales. Law Enforcement should have stepped in and prevented the foray, the same as they would for any other idiotic publicity stunt such as parachuting off of buildings etc


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          Roy Hogue

          Unfortunately nothing fails to convince a zealot faster than the facts. ;-)

          The Prince of Wales is nothing new to us. We’ve seen him before right along with the rest. But then he’s a man with no job to do until his mother dies, so I expect he’s bored silly and searching for a way to look important. And even when he becomes King of England I wonder what useful job he has to do. I would not be in his shoes or his sons’ shoes for anything.

          I can completely understand Dianna’s obvious disdain for the royal life.

          If you disagree with my assessment, be my guest and speak your mind. :-)


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            Rereke Whakaaro

            Charles was/is the last of the Royals to be brought up in a cloistered environment. He has no real experience of day to day life in Britain (or anywhere, for that matter).

            Diana’s legacy is that his sons have been permitted to experience real life. Andrew met Kate when they (and some others) shared a student flat. Harry, as an army subaltern, reportedly enjoys the challenge of being in the front line. Two things that would not have happened, if Diana had not broken the mold.


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              Roy Hogue

              Diana’s legacy is that his sons have been permitted to experience real life. Andrew met Kate when they (and some others) shared a student flat. Harry, as an army subaltern, reportedly enjoys the challenge of being in the front line. Two things that would not have happened, if Diana had not broken the mold.

              Rereke,

              You’re right of course. But I’m left wondering how long Andrew and Kate will stand up under being owned pretty literally by their country, their every move subject to the curiosity of the masses and recorded by the tabloid press. Their lives are not really their own to live as they choose.


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                Rereke Whakaaro

                Andrew and Kate will [be] owned pretty literally by their country.

                It goes with the job. Kate is a smart lady by all accounts, and William saw what the pressure did to his Mother. They will have not gone into this without careful consideration and planning.


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              llew Jones

              I’m certainly not a republican but Charles is, in general, a first rate pisswit. He attended Geelong Grammar as a student, here in Victoria, but even that experience didn’t, as far as can be ascertained, counter his intellectual deficiencies.

              Still in our system of government he has about the best qualifications to be our future King in that no one is likely to take him seriously. A sort of amusing reincarnation of George 3 who ruled for 60 years.


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                Rereke Whakaaro

                A sort of amusing reincarnation of George 3 who ruled for 60 years.

                Yes, well he is hardly going to last that long, especially since his Mother is going for all of the records.


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                Greebo

                I’m certainly not a republican but Charles is, in general, a first rate pisswit. He attended Geelong Grammar as a student, here in Victoria,

                Pretty sure he was at Timbertop. Sure, it’s a Geelong Grammar campus, but has little connection with GG’s normal curricula. More L.G. Robertson type of thing.


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              theRealUniverse

              Why do we need persons of “birthright and privilege” to be any head of a state? they should RESIGN! remember 1649, 1776, 1789, 1911, 1917 and what happened then. Napolean said he was trying to rid Europe of kings (read despot inbred royal families).


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                Rereke Whakaaro

                Well, somebody has to be head of state. Somebody has to be at the top, as it were. But you don’t want that person to have too much power, or they become a despot. Also, you do not really want the distraction of people competing for the position, and all of the in-fighting that causes. Remember that the only way to get rid of a despot is through revolution, and a lot of people die, as a result. Look at Syria, Libya, Iraq, and Iran before that.

                The British system is to have one person, in one family that has the right to dismiss Parliament if the Government of the day strays too far from the mandate of the people who elected them. They act as the watch-dog of the people.

                In theory, Gillard’s Lie could have brought down the Labour Government, had the Governor General, as the Queen’s representative, been sufficiently lobbied, and decided to dissolve Parliament. She did not have the mandate to bring in a tax that she campaigned on not having.

                In return, the Royals, and their appointed representatives, have little power of their own, although the Queen does “strongly question the British Prime Minister” in regard to decisions made in Cabinet, especially when those decisions will impact the working people in Britain.

                It is sort of like a Quality Assurance role, to try and prevent bad laws being passed.

                The rest of the Royals are essentially farmers, that live of the income from their land. That is why Prince Charles is so keen on windmills – he gets paid for having them.

                The Royals also pander to peoples love of pomp and ceremony – they are like celebs, although more enduring, but arguably as vacuous.


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                Annie

                The unreal universe:

                Probably because they are preferable to some of the idiots who are elected heads of state (Rudd, Gillard anybody?) not to mention the POTUS. Heve you noticed how much MORE such people cost to run, with flashing-light convoys of vehicles and all the security services in huge numbers? How many heads of state are total tyrants atm? Give me our Royal family anytime…nothing like so much expensive fuss and palaver as the average president and certainly highly preferable to bumped-up, vapid celebrity nincompoops.


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                Roy Hogue

                Why do we need persons of “birthright and privilege” to be any head of a state?

                Indeed, why do we need them? I think we don’t. Someone in any position for too long spells trouble of one kind or another. You Brits have a prime minister who is the real executive head of government and why then, a king or a queen? It’s all ceremonial. And although I don’t completely understand English government I can’t see a useful purpose.

                And again, if you disagree feel free to say so. No red thumbs. I won’t bite, honest.


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                Rereke Whakaaro

                Roy,

                When you say that, “a prime minister … is the real executive head of Government”, that is not strictly true. The Prime Minister cannot pass legislation into law in the same way that the President of the United States does.

                The Prime Minister, and the Cabinet of Ministers, sets the policy — what is intended, and then defines how it will be managed, in terms of legislation. The legislation is then drafted in legal terms, and goes to Parliament, where it goes through several stages of debate, and modification, in the Parliamentary process until it is eventually passed in its Final Reading.

                Passing the final reading, does not make it law. All it means is, that the majority of parliamentarians agree, by a simple vote, that the legislation will work as intended. It does not become law, until it is signed by the Monarch.

                Right through this process, the Prime Minister is required to keep the Monarch informed of what is proposed, how it is being done, and what the results are likely to be.

                The Monarch can ask questions, give advice, and explore alternative approaches. The Monarch is advised, in this, by the Privy Council: a number of former politicians, senior judges, archbishops, senior public servants, and retired military commanders, as well as the leaders of all major political parties (including the current Prime Minister). This is sometimes referred to as “The Establishment,” often in a derogatory way, by people who do not understand its function.

                The one thing the Monarch cannot do, is direct the Prime Minister to take any particular course of action.

                The Monarch can, however, refuse to sign legislation into law, if he or she is not comfortable with the intent, or content, based on advice from the Privy Councillors. The Monarch therefore retains the power of veto. The Monarch also has the power to dissolve Parliament, and force fresh elections, should a Government totally run amok.

                Because it is an hereditary position, it cannot be suborned, or outwardly influenced, except by a discussion of ideas. As such it gives some consistency to the British political process. Because all political leaders are members of the Privy Council, it also avoids most of the wild swings in policy, that can sometimes be seen in other administrations.


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                Rod Stuart

                Rereke in 13.1.1.4
                What a shame that this process is no longer taught in schools!
                If it were, there might be fewer people that think they can vote for someone to be Prime Minister.
                In addition, if there were sufficient people that understood this there would be no need for a debate on a republic.
                It is a real shame that the current GG, being involved so directly in the Heiner Affair. and so obviously ALP biased, did not have the nous to pull the pin on this government previously, as there were ample opportunities to dissolve parliament. The first was in 2010, when the election was essentially a “draw”. The next was the breaking of the promise “no carbon tacks under a government I lead”, and then when the Red Queen’s budget was so obviously a Swine-fest.


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                Roy Hogue

                Rereke,

                Thank you. I’ve learned something from your response to my opinion about heads of state.

                I do still believe that someone in a position for too long can be a real problem. What happens if the monarch simply blocks necessary legislation for the sake of a personal agenda about the matter, i.e.; Obama would refuse to sign a lot of good legislation for the sake of his personal agenda which, by the way, IS harmful to The United States?


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                Roy Hogue

                Addendum:

                So in the end, no system works unless the people who constitute the government, whether elected or not, are honest and unless they change frequently enough that one point of view cannot get the upper hand and keep it for a long time. Anyone in a position of power for a long time is simply political poison in my experience as a careful observer of politics.

                You need only take a good look at the world around you to figure out that I’m right.


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            theRealUniverse

            The British system is to have one person, in one family that has the right to dismiss Parliament if the Government of the day strays too far from the mandate of the people who elected them. They act as the watch-dog of the people.

            Irrelavent they have no mandate!!!!

            Wasnt that 1776!!!!! G Washimgton got RID of that very thing in a certain colony!

            “They act as the watch-dog of the people”
            I dont think so..If you really look at the Sax-Coberg/Hanover (now called meakly Windsor) usurpers of merry England, since Charles II, and real history you will see what a pack of despots they have been. Victoria, biggest war mongering empire builder since ROME!


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              theRealUniverse

              OH its on record that HRH the Dukes brother inlaw was an SS officer!! ON RECORD!


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                Rereke Whakaaro

                Oh really? So the Queen’s husband’s sister, married somebody who was an SS officer? If it is “on record” as you claim, you will be able to tell us what year they got married. I would be interested to find out.


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              Rereke Whakaaro

              You didn’t read the subsequent conversation, did you?

              Typical – fire from the lip, and forget to aim at all. I am sure you will go far in life. Although I have doubts about which direction you will go.


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          Jon

          Strange how irresponsible one can be in polar regions and in mountains by putting yourself and others in great great danger, high risk. Try to do something much less risky with your car and you end up in jail?
          It’s a strange World.?


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    Angry

    Since the alp/greens Australian federal “government” did not help out our fruit canning company SPC Ardmona, 750,000 fruit trees are set to be destroyed!

    This is a national disgrace !!

    http://www.foodmag.com.au/news/goulburn-valley-growers-expected-to-burn-trees-by

    Thanks Chairman rudd!!!


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      Andrew McRae

      The decline in export markets may be due to the high exchange rate and perhaps some change in tastes or cheaper suppliers overseas. Not much can be done to help that, and a tax on imports certainly doesn’t.
      In asking for a tax on imports SPC are showing that their strategy was to keep production basically the same but to provent overproduction they have to sell more of it on the domestic market.
      Presumably the domestic market was not terribly price constrained already and so people were already buying as much tinned fruit as they wanted. That means capturing domestic market share away from imports. The import tax protectionism is one way of doing that, but… at this point the free market advocates may go strangely silent.
      It’s not a taxpayer subsidy but it does intervene in free price signals.

      I have to wonder why the company’s first step was to ask the government for a hand-out instead of asking their customers (fruit shops and Coles/Woolies) for hand-up: an advertising campaign to ask people to pay more for Australian made foods if they value national food security. Certainly after the government intervention didn’t happen soon enough they could have appealed to their customer base for support.

      Really strange the Labor government didn’t jump onto a protectionist policy immediately, as that’s their bread and butter. Have the professional Leftists in this country forgotten how to do Leftism?


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    Nathan

    The climate sceptics party preferences flow to Labor before Coalition parties???


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      AndyG55

      Means they don’t get my senate vote… points to their ideology.

      If they had preferenced the Libs, I might have voted that way for the senate.

      I am sceptical about their agenda. Like that web site of the similar name.


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      Angry

      Yet another reason to download the senate candidates into a spreadsheet, do your own research, number them all individually and then bring it to your polling booth.

      That way YOU have the control about preferences and not the party……

      This is what we have done.

      Yes, it requires some effort, but it is worth it.


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    • #
      Michael P

      Actually they do explain why they are doing that on http://catallaxyfiles.com/2013/08/31/no-carbon-tax-climate-sceptics-party/ as follows : Hi all,

      I’m glad the question has been asked, and I hope the answer I provide here will be given equal prominence to avoid confusion. No, we are not a Labor front group. What we are doing is trying to keep Greens from getting elected.

      Let me explain. Suppose there are 69 voters and the quota to elect a Senator is 10. The LNP gets 35 votes, the ALP 25 the Greens 6 and the No Carbon Tax Climate Sceptics 3. The LNP elects 3 senators, the ALP 2 and there is a preference race for the last seat with the two major parties each having a surplus of 5. As our vote is lowest we are excluded and our preferences distributed first.

      If we got to the LNP, their vote goes up to 8 – still short of a quota. Then the ALP is excluded and their preferences elect a Green. Bad outcome.

      However, if our preferences go to the ALP, this puts them in front of the Greens and they instead will win the last “left” seat.

      This is a highly simplified example but a similar situation is likely to unfold in those three states. In each the “right” will win three seats and the “left” three – and there is nothing we can do to change that. However we do have the opportunity to potentially change which party gets the last “left” seat and that is what we are trying to do.

      Trust us. We really really understand preference math. If you don’t believe me, go here: http://originaltruthseeker.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/south-australian-senate-no-carbon-tax.html


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        AndyG55

        That actually seems reasonable.

        Real environmentalists, I have absolutely no problem with…..

        but Green politicians…. environmental and economic vandals. !!!


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        Andrew

        So basically their argument is that they want Libs to drop out first because the Libs did the right thing putting Greens after ALP but ALP preferenced Greens so they should be rewarded to avoid their votes exhausting and spilling to the grubby Greens? Wow, they understand preference logic but not the real world.


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    Apoxonbothyourhouses

    Dear Jo,

    Are you or Lord Monkton aware that the NoCarbonTax party are giving their preferences to Labor? Are they duplicitous or just inefficiently stupid?

    Preferences against the party that supports the basis of their “cause”. Our Christopher (much mentioned on their web site) should disassociate himself from such a politically clueless mob.


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    handjive

    How is that 2013 summer arctic ice melting because of manmade co2 global warming?

    2013 Northwest Passage CLOSED without Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker escorts for transit.
    sailworld.com.au: North West Passage blocked with ice – yachts caught

    North West Passage 2013:
    YOU REALLY DO NOT WANT TO EXPERIENCE THIS WITH YOUR VESSEL – PLEASE GET OUT OF THE ARCTIC ASAP!

    Video: It’s like dragging your boat over gravel.
    .
    It is no wonder the “doomsday climate change fools” never mention the melting ice this year. Another fail.


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      Jon

      Why do they call it the “NorthWest passage”? I mean if you’re in Alaska it’s a North East passage? This is very confusing and illogical ?
      Or maybe it’s based on West or East of Greenwitch(international zero-longitude reference line)?

      In that case you could also call it the Arctic(-) passage and the other one Arctic(+) passage?


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        Rod Stuart

        In a day and age in which the European powers of Portugal, France, England, Spain, and Holland were vying for trade with the Far East, the entrepreneurs of the day could imagine that a route that would save months of sailing would make someone rich.
        A well worn route took them South from Europe in the Atlantic down to the cape, and a left turn took them through the Indian Ocean to the Spice Islands, China and Japan.
        With no Panama Canal , the only route across the Pacific meant entering the dreaded Southern Ocean around the tip of South America. All sorts of dangers lurked there. Sailing ships were often becalmed in the tropics, or thrashed to pieces in the Roaring Forties. The French trading company, called the NorthWest Company, knew that they could traverse from Atlantic to Pacific by canoe, with many labourious portages, and the French, as well as the English Hudson’s Bay Company, competed for the knowledge of a trade route around the North of the continent. They described the route they were searching for as the “Northwest Passage”. This all came to pass well before you were born, when men of steel like Jacques Cartier and Samuel de Champlain and Alexander MacKenzie fought tooth and claw for fame, fortune, and adventure.


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          Joe V.

          Thank you Rod. These fearless adventurers put today’s efforts in perspective and while other trade routes and technology now make a Noth West Passage less necessary it still seems as elusive as ever.


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    Yonniestone

    Happy Fathers Day to all you Mother F$@#%&s :)


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    pat

    1 Sept: ABC Insiders: Extended interview with Whitehaven Coal chief Paul Flynn
    ALAN KOHLER: Obviously the federal case is after the election, so Tony Burke probably won’t be Minister then, have you discussed it with Greg Hunt?
    PAUL FLYNN: We have had interactions with the Shadow Minister and his department to ensure that they are briefed in terms of the status of our project, so we anticipate the election result will play out the way it is and so we’ve had interactions with the both the existing Minister and shadow.
    ALAN KOHLER: So did Greg Hunt give you any undertakings or indications perhaps as to what he might decide?
    PAUL FLYNN: No he didn’t give us any undertakings, he was understanding of our frustration with the status quo and so that was welcome, we were keen to hear that he understood the delays and the frustration’s of not just us but others in the industry have felt also and so that was welcome…
    ALAN KOHLER: Given the trend toward low carbon environment, no matter what’s going on politically, are you confident in the future of thermal coal in particular?
    PAUL FLYNN: Yes, we’re very confident about the place that thermal coal plays in the global energy mix, and it is by far the cheapest, lowest risk type sort of energy for the merging (emerging? – pat) world, there’s no doubt about that in our mind.
    ALAN KOHLER: Part of the reason it’s cheaper though is because you don’t pay for the damage you cause to the environment?
    PAUL FLYNN: Well regulation actually perversely plays to Australia, regulation in this area because what it does, it moves the consumers of coal to cleaner sources of coal and that certainly plays to Australia’s portfolio of coals as compared to the globe, and Whitehaven plays…
    ALAN KOHLER: Your coal is cleaner?
    PAUL FLYNN: Yes we’ve got very low trace elements, low ash, low sulphur, low phosphorus and that’s what the global market is now moving towards, so everybody who has concerns about these environmental concerns is certainly moving towards cleaner sources of coal and that actually benefits Australia and certainly Whitehaven.
    ALAN KOHLER: I don’t know that many environmentalists see the fine distinctions between different coals I guess, which is what you are finding in the Federal court?…
    ALAN KOHLER: A lot of people are saying the mining boom in Australia is over, now obviously it’s not as simple as sort of over or not over, what’s your perspective on that?
    PAUL FLYNN: Look it’s certainly been running pretty strongly there’s no doubt about it but is it over, I wouldn’t say that, I wouldn’t say that at all, we look at the underlining volumes and that is probably the key for us, look at the volumes rather than the headline percentage terms, there’s no doubt China has come off and those numbers look like it has changed but if you look at the underlying volumes of coal required into a market that’s still growing 7% off an enlarged base then they’re still pretty compelling.
    http://www.abc.net.au/insidebusiness/content/2013/s3838353.htm


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      pat scribes here:

      …..it moves the consumers of coal to cleaner sources of coal and that certainly plays to Australia’s portfolio of coals as compared to the globe, and Whitehaven plays…
      ALAN KOHLER: Your coal is cleaner?
      PAUL FLYNN: Yes we’ve got very low trace elements, low ash, low sulphur, low phosphorus and that’s what the global market is now moving towards, so everybody who has concerns about these environmental concerns is certainly moving towards cleaner sources of coal and that actually benefits Australia and certainly Whitehaven.
      ALAN KOHLER: I don’t know that many environmentalists see the fine distinctions between different coals I guess…..

      Besides those cleaner coal things mentioned by Paul Flynn, the biggest market for our coal is China, and here’s an example of China burning our Steaming coal cleaner.

      Bayswater burns (as indicated at their own site) to generate 16,000GWH, (again, their own statement, although it’s closer to 17,000GWH)

      China’s new tech USC plants, with a smaller Nameplate Capacity (2000MW to Bayswater’s 2640) are generating exactly that same amount of power (well, a little more than that 16,000GWH) power for consumption, and only burning 5.5 million tons of coal to do it, burning the coal more thoroughly, and more efficiently than we do at Bayswater.

      That’s 5.72 million tons less emitted CO2 than at Bayswater.

      When that message get across that cleaner coal (as mentioned derogatorily here by Alan Kohler) is equated to less emissions, then we may be moving a step closer to actually informing the public on how new tech USC coal fired power is indeed an effective emissions lowering program.

      That’s 5.72 MILLION tons lower CO2 emissions ….. and from just ONE coal fired power plant.

      Tony.


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      • #

        Thanks for that Tony.
        My (incumbent and likely to be re-elected) Federal member seems to read stuff I send him. I recently passed on some information on USC technology, plus what I could glean from the link to the Global Energy Observatory you provided a little while ago. Thanks apparently to the efforts of Joh Bjelke-Petersen there is a fair amount of generating capacity in Queensland, but mostly sub-critical, some super-critical. Couldn’t find any USC. So far, no one daft enough to go for wind (subsidy) farming on a large scale, but plenty of roof-top PV FIT pushing up the retail prices.
        Any chance of you pulling all your material together into a publication?


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        ianl8888


        … very low trace elements, low ash, low sulphur, low phosphorus

        Also, low moisture and relatively high Specific Energy, as I’ve noted, lo! these many times. Many hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent on exploration,laboratory analyses and bulk sampling to find and then define these deposits for economic mining

        Most people will just continue to regard this as completely unimportant and irrelevant, just like Kohler

        Sadly, Tony, there’s no doubt the demographic of ignorant and stupid has the numbers


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        Andrew

        And I suspect that under an adult govt, this sort of thing could find itself part of Direct Action. Not that I care about CO2s, but emitting 1/3 less CO2s mean the coal goes 50% further. If the Libs kick in say $200m to subsidise the plant upgrades, that’s perhaps 15Mt less CO2s emitted every single year. It will be the lowest cost abatement that the world has ever seen, compared to an average $20/t in the Enormous Trading Scam, which will driven Sarah Hyphen-Yuk barmy. In fact, if Abbottabbottabbott666 can produce ultra-low cost abatement with dams and other DA policies, it will be the final nail in the coffin of the ETS. The rest of the world will copy us.

        It will be good economically, as it reduces input costs and increases our energy security (we will be able to keep using our magnificent coal). And it’s good for households – they would love the govt to spend $200m on a brand new coal power station that saves 1/3 of input costs, which can be passed on in lower prices. As opposed to $1bn on an imported and useless wind farm or solar plant in the middle of the desert.


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    pat

    this is so funny. ABC Fact Check’s CAGW-Panel concerned about “UNCERTAINTIES”:

    30 Aug: ABC Fact Check: Greg Hunt not giving the full story on climate research
    Research by the CSIRO shows carbon emissions can be reduced by 20 per cent over 40 years using nature, soils and trees, Opposition Climate spokesman Greg Hunt said in a recent television interview….

    Is that what the research is saying?
    The chapter also said there were many uncertainties in his forecast…
    The 168-page study, which Dr Battaglia co-authored, contains more than 100 references to uncertainties, including in the forecasts.
    “It must be recognised that these estimates contain a combination of biological, technical and implementation uncertainty.”…

    The verdict
    Mr Hunt quotes the figure for potential abatement used in the CSIRO accurately, but he leaves out the uncertainties and practical challenges in a large body of research and articles published by its scientists.
    He is not giving the full story.

    ABC Fact Check climate advisory panel:
    Tony Wood is director of the Grattan Institute’s Energy Program. He was an adviser to the first Garnaut climate change review. He is also program director of Clean Energy Projects at the Clinton Foundation.

    Malte Meinshausen is an honorary senior research fellow at the University of Melbourne’s School of Earth Sciences. He has been a contributing author to various chapters in the Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

    Frank Jotzo is deputy director of Australian National University’s Climate Change Institute. He is a lead author of the Fifth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and has been an advisor to Australia’s Garnaut Climate Change Review.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-30/greg-hunt-not-giving-full-story-climate-research/4923258


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      Angry

      greg hunt is a global warming NUTJOB & he should join the GREENS !!

      He has ZERO SCIENTIFIC QUALIFICATIONS!!

      http://www.greghunt.com.au/AboutGreg/Biography.aspx

      Another reason to do your homework prior to the federal election and ensure that any party that still promotes this global warming FRAUD is ranked well down in your preferences….


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        AndyG55

        I’m angry too 1

        No one is giving us the alternative to vote for.

        Even the party that “calls” itself the Skeptical party is doing it the way John Cook uses the word, and is preferencing Labor in many states.

        So who does one vote for?

        I just desperately want Rudd and the Lab/greens GONE. Even the Liberals with their pandering to the warmist agenda is better. Somewhat less WASTED money.


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          Sceptical Sam

          Yep AndyG55, a lot less wasted money.

          And also the prospect that as they move to pay down the debt they’ll spend even less on their silly Direct Action Plan.

          As for the Green Army – well, that’s estimated to need 150,000 workers. I’ve never yet seen a Green who knows anything about work. Have you?

          So where are the 150,000 coming from? I think we’ll see a further change to that as it becomes clear that a number of that magnitude is a real challenge.


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          • #

            You might be getting your shades of green mixed up. If Green Army is anything like Green Corps, I’ll certainly support it. Each person planting 200+ trees per day is a good advance on 6 followed by a photo opportunity. Useful work done on keeping start-up irrigation within bounds, those who can hack it get a TAFE equivalent certificate that means something, etc.
            If there aren’t enough volunteers locally, there will be plenty from overseas.


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        Dave

        I agree,

        Hunt should go from the front bench totally, and eventually out of the Liberal Party.

        He will spend the next three years as a Greg Suzuki, travelling the world on his direct action plan. Sickening.

        How long a period of no warming does a political party need to state that this scam is over. The Greens/ ALP/ IPCC will never let go of this gravy train. It will be Climate Change causing Global Cooling next. It’s getting to the point where most people I speak to now, couldn’t care less about CO2 emissions, CAGW, extreme events and the rest of Tim Flannery’s scare campaign.

        The idiot ABOAT assumes everyone here is a coalition voter because of that fact, well for most of my life I have been a Union lad, and the ALP, because it was in the family. Not after deciding to discover some facts about The Great Global warming scare and the CO2 direct link. Between Jennifer Marohasy and Joanne Nova (and all the contributors), whose sites gave me time and information to make up my own mind, and gave me the power to disagree with the rank and file.

        All I want is a good economy (for my family) and a safe country to live in, which gives us all the other benefits like health, education, food, work etc.

        But this CAGW stuff is still being sprouted by all the major political parties. It will stop over time as I have personally contacted all my local candidates to confirm they will put money into research to find out more about the skeptical view, and not invest in the useless windmills and solar panels. NONE, will commit to this.

        The are all very unfortunate not to receive a VOTE from me. But the time will come very soon.


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    pat

    Aboat -

    why i won’t be voting for the Coalition – never have – and why i am still voting informally:

    30 Aug: Guardian: Oliver Milman: Coalition vows to lead G20 in new rainforest protection strategy
    Christine Milne calls pledge ‘a joke’ given commitment to remove world heritage listing for parts of Tasmania’s forests
    Greg Hunt, the Coalition’s environment spokesman, told Guardian Australia that, if elected, he wanted to help cut by 50% the 8bn tonnes of annual CO2 emissions caused by deforestation…
    He added: “Nothing will give you a bigger, faster chance of reducing emissions than to preserve the rainforests. On top of that, the rainforests are the great biological arks of the world…
    Hunt said he wanted to “build upon” the existing REDD programme, which rewards nations for not clearing rainforest, rather than replace it. He also wants to work with the G4 – China, the US, India and the EU – for a new agreement to cut emissions…
    “Why on earth would the G20 take notice for a moment of an Abbott government led by a climate sceptic who came out last week for a capped fund for reduced emissions that won’t get us anywhere near the 5% reduction in emissions? How will they take Australia seriously if we can’t look after our own backyard?”
    Although in the past Abbott has said the science proving climate change was “crap”, he has since moderated his position and now says he believes in the science…
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/30/coalition-vow-on-rainforest-protection


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    Kytin

    In South Australia, the No Carbon Tax Climate Sceptics are given a strong chance of unseating prominent Green Sarah Hanson-Young, even if they get as little as 0.15 per cent of the vote.

    From The Age.


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    Ross

    For those who not aware Topher’s 50:1 project video ( on the costs of the AGW scare) is due for release in the next day or so. Topher says he thinks it is his best effort, by far. ( That is saying something because I think some of his previous videos have been fantastic.)
    So make sure your email lists are all up to date so we can spread the message far and wide as quickly as possible —esp in Australia before your elections.


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    Dave

    Bunnings Hardware???

    We’ve all been too Bunnings for a Gas refill or a pair of pliers, so this little You Tube clip definitely touches every one who has done this, even Kevin Rudd.

    Sort of like going into government and saying you’re going to only purchase economic responsibility.

    But when you come out of Government you have this in your trolley:

    1. Pink batt junk that did nothing for the temperature except death.
    2. Building the Education Revolution of over priced sheds in schools all over the country.
    3. $900 bribes to all the non contributors to the economy.
    4. Taxing CO2 at $23 per tonne to build useless electricity generating units covering the farmland of Australia.
    5. Providing justification for people like Peter Slipper and Craig Thompson. Both grubs.
    6. Allowing the union movement to dictate productivity.
    7. Wrecking manufacturing as an industry in Australia.
    8. Promise high speed trains all over the place.
    9. Move the Royal Australian Navy from Sydney to Brisbane.
    10.Make the Northern Territory a tax reduced zone.
    11.Make the ALP prime Minister a permanent position.

    But, you have to make the distinction between spending a fortune of your wife’s money on ladders, extension cord, roman candles, potting mix, Blue-Tack and secateurs and running a country. FFS, he was only sent to get a Mossie Candle, and came back with the above load of Shite.

    DNL – DOES NOT LISTEN, and fruitloop.

    That’s why I’m not voting for the ALP.


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    • #

      Hardest part of preferential voting is having to rank the ones who ought to go last. This time there is so much competition for this position the least-worst might even stand a chance :-(


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      Angry

      People may want to check out the following political parties instead of the major ones which all seem to be full of BS….

      Rise Up Australia Party
      Building Australia Party
      Shooters and Fishers
      Australian Protectionist Party
      One Nation
      Australian Fishing and Lifestyle Party
      Australia First Party


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        farmerbraun

        What ? No Party Party?


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        If I may offer a comment here on the distribution of preferences.

        IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

        If you vote for one of the major parties, then, even though you have to number every square, there’s no real need to follow the how to vote cards, because either the LNP or Labor will finish either first or second in the result, so your preferences will never be counted, as eliminations start for candidate with the least number one votes and then go up to the third placed candidate, if needed.

        If you vote outside of the major parties, then your preference will be counted, so a vote for that person is in fact a direct vote for someone else if there is no outright winner at the first count. Even if you vote outside the majors all the way, then your preference may go up to the next guy eliminated, and then to the next guy eliminated, and so on, and still end up with one of the majors.

        The Senate is different.

        If you vote for one of the major parties then again, there is every chance your preference will not be needed, however that party chooses to distribute their preferences, as, hopefully, the LNP will get three two full quotas, and probably enough to put them close to a third quota.

        Labor will get 2 in every State, but their third quota will not be as large as the LNP, (if the polls are close to the mark)

        Vote for the majors and your vote will effectively count as a full value vote for the person you want.

        Vote for any other party in the Senate and your preference will be distributed, so again, a vote outside the Majors is a vote for someone else.

        The lowest gets eliminated first and so on up the ticket until all six seats are filled. Effectively, if you vote for one of the minnows, then your vote could end up anywhere, as it gets counted for whoever that party preferences, and they then get eliminated moving their preferences onto the next party, and so on.

        See how complex it becomes if you vote for one of the minnows. Unless you know the preference distribution for every party, then if you vote outside the majors, your vote could end up anywhere, even for one of the majors in the end.

        So, that’s why effectively you only need know where the majors are preferencing, because it all comes down to the last quota.

        If you vote for the majors, then your vote will actually count for them.

        Can you now see why The Senate result is not usually known for anything up to a fortnight.

        Then we have the case where this Senate election means little, as it doesn’t come into effect until mid next year.

        So, even if those 3 current Greens up for re-election do get dumped, then they still get to stick around ….. and vote, for another year.

        Tony.


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    Bevan

    On 1st January 1989, the nations of the world took action via the Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer, to eliminate the production of certain atmospheric pollutants, the man-made chlorofluorocarbons, CFCs, and hydrochlorofluorocarbons, HCFC’s, because they caused ozone depletion in the stratosphere. This depletion allows excessive ultraviolet-B from the Sun to reach the Earth’s surface where it increases the risk of skin cancer, cataracts, and suppresses the immune system for humans and also damages other life forms. The action of ozone is to absorb the radiance from the Sun across a number of different frequency bands including the damaging UV-B band.

    An extensive database of the infrared absorption spectra for gases is maintained on the HITRAN Web site by the Harvard-Smithsonian Centre for Astrophysics, Cambridge, MA, USA, in conjunction with the V.E. Zuev Institute of Atmospheric Optics, Tomsk, Russia. It includes the absorption spectra for water vapour, carbon dioxide, CO2, methane, CH4, nitrous oxide, N2O, and the halocarbons which the IPCC has stated are, in order of importance, the main greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

    While we have been told that greenhouse gases are a cause of dangerous surface global warming, climate scientists have failed to tell us that they also absorbs radiation from the Sun in the upper atmosphere thereby protecting the Earth in a similar fashion to the protection given by ozone.

    For the case of absorption by CO2, the most prominent spectral line is at a wavelength of 4.3 microns. Applying Planck’s Law, gives us a spectral radiance of no more than 0.73 Watts per (steradian metre squared) per micron for an Earth emitting at a temperature of 288 degrees Kelvin, dependant on the emissivity at the time. For the incoming Sun’s spectral radiance at the Earth’s orbit, the figure is 2.24 W/(sr m^2)/micron for a Sun temperature of 5780 degrees Kelvin. That means that at least 3 times as much heat is radiated back into space by CO2 in the upper atmosphere as is back-radiated to the Earth’s surface at this wavelength. Clearly, absorption and re-radiation of the sunshine in the upper atmosphere at this wavelength cools the Earth and is going to cause additional cooling as the concentration of CO2 increases.

    Recent alarm about the release of methane gas from areas of permafrost failed to recognise that the main absorption peak for methane is at a wavelength of about 3.3 microns. At this wavelength the radiant flux from the Sun is of the order of 85 times greater than that from an Earth at 15 degrees Celsius. This must result in about 85 times as much infrared radiation from the Sun, at 3.3 microns wavelength, being sent back into space by the absorption and re-radiation from methane molecules in the upper atmosphere as could be re-radiated into the lower atmosphere for infrared radiation sourced from the warmed Earth. Furthermore as the Sun’s radiation is re-emitted into space before reaching the Earth’s surface, that surface will be colder than the assumed 15 degrees Celsius and thus will release even less radiation at all wavelengths.

    Next in order of importance with regard to global warming potential is nitrous oxide. The absorption peak for this gas is at 4.5 microns at which point the incoming radiant flux from the Sun is about three times the emission from the Earth’s surface. Once again, an increase in the concentration of this gas may cause cooling of the Earth, not warming.

    While the IPCC claims confidence at levels of 95% or 98% in their attribution of global warming to greenhouse gases in the atmosphere it appears as though they are only dealing with half of the story. There does not seem to be any recognition of the back-radiation of the incoming Sun’s radiant flux out into space by the so-called greenhouse gases. It is little wonder that the forecasts from the General Circulation Models have always been incorrect if they do not take account of this effect. Add to that a lack of consideration of the variation in the emission from the Sun and the claimed confidence levels become unsustainable.

    An attempt to use the HITRAN site to determine the effect of doubling the concentration of CO2 for the IAO model for a tropical atmosphere from 333 ppm to 666 ppm, balancing the inward sunshine with the outgoing Earth radiation, gave a result that was insignificant relative to the possible errors in the assumptions involved. It certainly did not accord with the extravagant claims of warming made by the IPCC and their cohort. This approach may warrant a far more detailed investigation.

    The origin of a failure to comprehend the problem may go back to the mantra of the Green movement of “shortwave in, long wave out”. This completely misrepresents the actual situation whereby the Sun’s spectrum is a continuum covering a large range of wavelengths and includes within it the range of emissions from the Earth.

    To conclude, the correlation of increasing Earth temperature with increasing CO2 concentration was not a causal but a chance statistic. Physical science would seem to indicate that a negative correlation should exist. Either back-radiation of sunshine keeps the Earth cooler than it might otherwise be without greenhouse gases or there is no such back-radiation in which case there is no greenhouse effect.


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      Len

      I was under the impression that the ozone story had been copletely debunked. I recall the Memory Vault had submitted a post here explaining the fraud.


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        Rereke Whakaaro

        It is the last four paragraphs that are pertinent. The rest is background.

        Unfortunately, many people will not read as far as the seventh paragraph before they say, “I was under the impression that the ozone story …” ;-)


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          MemoryVault

          My thoughts exactly, Rereke. Len above you is correct.

          Nonetheless I gave it a thumbs-up, as apart from the ozone part, it is possibly the best, and most succinct, explanation of the possible cooling, or zero effects of GHG’s in relation to the so-called “greenhouse theory”, that I have read so far.

          Bereft of the first three paragraphs, it is worthy of reprinting everywhere and anywhere.


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      Peter C

      Thanks Bevan
      I will keep that!


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    handjive

    The house of cards is exploding!

    Andy Revkin says “Annual Arctic Sea Ice Is On A decent Track for A Change”

    “It is hard to interpret this as meaning anything other than the crisis of Arctic Sea ice melting too much and too fast is over.
    This is an important thing, because the rapid and widespread melting of sea ice in the Arctic seems to be causing a thing called Arctic Amplification, which means in normal human terms that the Arctic is warmer (amplified) than normal.

    Climate math seams to explain the warping and stalling of the Jet Stream as a function of Arctic Amplification, and Arctic Amplification is clearly the result of a warmer northern sea which is caused by exposure of the sea to more energy from the sun because the ice is reduced.
    The ice is reduced because of global warming, and this is positive feedback effect.

    If the Arctic Sea ice melt is “on a decent track” than this might mean a) global warming isn’t really happening and/or
    b) the Arctic Sea ice to amplification to jet stream warping and stalling to weather whiplash connection isn’t valid.
    So, that would be important.
    So let’s see if Andy is Revkin the Right or Revkin the Wrong on this one.


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    Ross

    Well done to Topher , Jo , David and the rest of the team. They have made a fantastic effort on the 50:1 project. It is now live

    http://www.50to1.net!

    Hopefully Jo will make a separate thread on it.


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      Oh please put this on National TV in prime time.

      And do it this week.

      Please.

      Fat chance, more’s the pity.

      Tony.


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      For every degree of temperature saved on a World wide basis, it will cost $3,200,000,000,000,000.

      Can you now see how this can be scammed to make a lot of people very rich. A little bit here, a little bit there, and with a figure like that no one notices, especially with so many different controlling bodies.

      It really is ….. only about the money.

      Tony.


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        There’s people out there who believe that a cause as noble as CAGW would not be scammed, and that the real ability to be scammed on any large scale would be noticed, but look again at that huge number.

        Surely any scamming on a huge scale would be noticed, but, really, would it be noticed?

        Let’s do a comparison then.

        Let’s actually scam one million dollars from that huge total, and hey, surely one million dollars would be noticed, eh?

        But would it?

        Here’s an exact equivalent.

        Someone comes up to you and offers you $160,000,000, and yes, that’s 160 million dollars. All you have to do is to give them a shiny 5 cent piece.

        You get the $160 Million and he’s dudded you out of 5 cents, scammed you for 5 cents. You wouldn’t even bother complaining, or even have your accountant go looking for it.

        See the point.

        Tony.


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      handjive

      50 to One quote:

      “Stop being afraid, and start thinking.”

      Bingo!


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        Safetyguy66

        I enjoyed Henry Ergas

        “Let me say at the outset I am not a physical scientist with regard to aspects of climate change, I am an economist”

        That’s funny, because it didn’t slow down Ross Garnaut for an instant. But I guess that’s the difference between a professional giving an opinion and someone getting paid a motza to put a certain view.


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    My head hurts with this one. Maybe I should have gone to bed earlier, as is past midnight. I posted this to Greg Laden’s blog.

    There are various ways of interpreting data. A year ago, the sea ice minimum was far lower than extrapolation of trend would have suggested. This was due to an unusually large and prolonged storm. This year the higher ice extent than expected due to changes in the gulf stream. So we have two years of outliers due to natural factors due to a trend that is allegedly caused by human-caused warming.
    A counter-hypothesis is that the minimum extent of Arctic sea ice is a partly a lagged function of surface air temperatures (the other variables including water temperatures, wind direction and average wind velocity). This could either be a turning point or a new equilibrium. A couple of (possible) outliers are insufficient to draw any conclusions about underlying trends.


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    pat

    looking forward to watching 50:1 but…for those who still like the nuclear option, some updates:

    1 Sept: BBC: Fukushima radiation levels ’18 times higher’ than thought
    The Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) had originally said the radiation emitted by the leaking water was around 100 millisieverts an hour.
    ***However, the company said the equipment used to make that recording could only read measurements of up to 100 millisieverts.
    The new recording, using a more sensitive device, showed a level of 1,800 millisieverts an hour.
    The new reading will have direct implications for radiation doses received by workers who spent several days trying to stop the leak last week, the BBC’s Rupert Wingfield-Hayes reports from Tokyo.
    In addition, Tepco says it has discovered a leak on another pipe emitting radiation levels of 230 millisieverts an hour.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23918882

    Japan Times is no leftwing rag:

    31 Aug: Japan Times: Jeff Kingston: Tepco’s follies, reactor restarts and awkward plutonium stockpiles
    It’s all so bad that, on a visit to Tepco’s stricken Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant last Monday, industry minister Toshimitsu Motegi even compared the company’s cascade of snafus to a game of “whack-a-mole.”…
    Almost 2½ years after the three reactor meltdowns at Fukushima, Tepco is still groping in the dark while 150,000 people remain displaced from their homes and the total cost of the nuclear accident is already approaching $100 billion. Ouch!…
    The dirty secret is that the energy generated by the two operating reactors at Kansai Electric Power Co.’s nuclear power plant at Oi in Fukui Prefecture has been surplus to needs — and in any event, in September they will be shut down for routine maintenance for six months. A Japan free of nuclear energy is coming. So why are reactor restarts deemed essential in a nation that has got by without needing any nuclear power through two sweltering summers?…
    Clearly, Japan is deeply enmeshed in the global nuclear-industrial complex; Toshiba owns Westinghouse while Hitachi and Mitsubishi have tie-ups with General Electric and Areva. Hence, Abe is an active pitchman for Japanese nuclear reactors — but if Japan itself begins phasing out nuclear energy, potential clients might look elsewhere.
    Earlier this year Japan secured a $22 billion contract with Turkey (another quake-prone country). It has also signed a nuclear technology agreement with the United Arab Emirates and is eyeing sales to Brazil, Vietnam and Saudi Arabia. In addition, negotiations are ongoing with India to enable Japan to sell its technology there, and Abe lobbied hard on behalf of Japan’s nuclear exporters at a June summit of the Visegrad countries (the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia)…
    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2013/08/31/commentary/tepcos-follies-reactor-restarts-and-awkward-plutonium-stockpiles/


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    pat

    why is AAP now calling the recovered bombs “live” when all MSM went out their way to call them “unarmed” previously? i do realise the two terms are not incompatible, but can’t see why they weren’t called “live” in the first place.

    still not a word from Ove Hoegh-Gulberg!

    2 Sept: AAP: Two US bombs to remain on Great Barrier Reef
    The two live bombs were located by divers on Thursday and Friday and sent to the surface using lift balloons before being destroyed.
    After liaising with authorities, the US navy decided to leave the inert explosives, which were filled with cement, on the reef, saying they posed no threat.
    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/two-bombs-to-remain-on-great-barrier-reef-20130901-2symu.html

    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/two-bombs-to-remain-on-great-barrier-reef-20130901-2symu.html


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    pat

    why is AAP now calling the recovered bombs “live” when all MSM went out their way to call them “unarmed” previously? i do realise the two terms are probably not incompatible, but can’t see why they weren’t called “live” in the first place.

    still not a word from Ove Hoegh-Gulberg!

    2 Sept: AAP: Two US bombs to remain on Great Barrier Reef
    The two live bombs were located by divers on Thursday and Friday and sent to the surface using lift balloons before being destroyed.
    After liaising with authorities, the US navy decided to leave the inert explosives, which were filled with cement, on the reef, saying they posed no threat.
    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/two-bombs-to-remain-on-great-barrier-reef-20130901-2symu.html

    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/two-bombs-to-remain-on-great-barrier-reef-20130901-2symu.html


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    handjive

    Check out Melburnian Inner-City Greens speaking out!

    Melburnians Speak Out With Adam Bandt on Clean Energy

    Yes, they vote. Yes, it looks cold for the warmest winter ever!


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    • #

      Some of you who were actually around in the late 80′s, early 90′s might remember a cutting edge comedy, Fast Forward, and one of the stars, Magda Szubanski had a wonderful part playing the amazing part of Pixie Ann Wheatley, and every time I think of The Greens I think of Pixie Ann, and that’s how I can actually smile whenever I see Christine Milne, and that stops me from throwing something at the TV, so, for me, The Greens are the Pixie Ann Wheatley Party, and one of her little pixies is dear old Adam Bandt, who here, in the huge city of Melbourne advocates that we rush to a renewable energy future.

      OK then Adam, let’s have a look at that shall we.

      Melbourne. Average daily power consumption of around 4000MW, give or take a little.

      So, and here I’ll just use the Nameplate Capacity equivalent, so that’s 1,600 wind towers in and around Melbourne. (The current whole of Australia total number of towers is around 1100)

      So, just for Melbourne, then that’s around 13 New large scale wind plants at around $2 Billion each, (King Island plant equivalent) but hey, money is no problem for The Greens.

      At the end of that frantic construction, you still only get one third of Melbourne’s actual total power consumption, and you only get that maximum for an averaged 7 hours a day.

      Adam Bandt really is off with the pixies.

      Tony.


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        Safetyguy66

        Tony I don’t think they even do the 10 second common sense test before they speak. They just dream the solution to the problem, then let their mouths open and it rolls straight from what passes as a brain into the air. That would all be fine except for the odd occasion when someone with a functional intellect hears it, then feels compelled to point out that their idea would only be functional in one of several alternate realities, but not in this one.

        Remember we are dealing with a party who’s leader has said things like….

        “Fellow Earthians,

        Never before has the Universe unfolded such a flower as our collective human intelligence, so far as we know.

        Nor has such a one-and-only brilliance in the Universe stood at the brink of extinction, so far as we know.

        We people of the Earth exist because our potential was there in the Big Bang, 13.7 billion years ago, as the Universe exploded into being.

        So far, it seems like we are the lone thinkers in this vast, expanding Universe.”

        And

        “We need a strategy. We need action based on the reality that this is our own responsibility – everyone’s responsibility.

        So democracy – ensuring that everyone is involved in deciding Earth’s future – is the key to success.

        For comprehensive Earth action, an all-of-the-Earth representative democracy is required. That is, a global parliament.”

        Bob had no idea he had described a totalitarian global state and described it as democratic. Thats because a green voters idea of democratic is simply a society where the “smart people” (them) force the dumb people (us) to do exactly what the #@!% we are told and NOW!!

        Also…

        “We Earthians can develop rosier prospects. We have been to the Moon. We have landed eyes and ears on Mars. ”

        I understand they grow some pretty good psilocybe cubensis down Hobart way and I suspect Bob has been having them in his morning tea for years.


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    pat

    guess it’s time for Fukushima to go mainstream. just love Reuters stating japanese officials concerned over the Olympics bid, without quoting anyone at all…the cynicism of that line is incredible. lots more to read in this piece:

    1 Sept: Reuters: Japan government abandons hands-off approach to Fukushima clean-up
    Japan’s government is moving to take a more direct role in the clean-up of the wrecked Fukushima nuclear plant, as concerns grow over the ability of embattled operator Tokyo Electric to handle the legacy of the worst atomic disaster in a quarter century.
    The concerns have also revived debate about the future of Tokyo Electric Power Co (Tepco) itself, including early-stage proposals to put its toxic nuclear assets under government control and leave the rest of the company as a provider of power to the nation’s biggest economic region…
    “The discussion about nationalizing or breaking up Tepco and at least putting the stabilization of the Fukushima reactors under direct government control is back.”
    ***Japanese officials also fear the glare of international attention could threaten Tokyo’s bid to host the 2020 Olympics, a decision on which will be made by the International Olympics Committee on September 7 in Buenos Aires…
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/01/us-japan-fukushima-idUSBRE98002520130901


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    Ian Hill

    Ah, lots of “goodies” are arriving daily in my letter box, despite the “no junk mail” sign.

    From today’s selection by Labor:

    “You have an important choice this election. Do you want a positive plan, or to take our country backwards?”

    Well yes actually, I want it to go backwards, to well before the carbon tax came in.


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    handjive

    There is just so much information proving the global warming predictions wrong.

    Here is another amazing example:

    ACROSS the lush farmlands of South Australia, a once-in-a-generation crop is emerging.
    The crop is set to shatter past records and breathe new life into the farming sector.
    Tightly packed grain crops are astounding farmers across the state as yields reach unprecedented levels.
    Confidence is high, with good prices and heavy rain forecast for Royal Adelaide Show week from September 6 to 14.

    In a show of farmer ingenuity, new methods, new technology and above-average winter rain are the reasons for the bumper crop of wheat, barley, canola, oats and various other oilseeds and pulses.”
    .
    How is this a UN-IPCC/ CSIRO/BoM/Climate Commission utter “settled science” failure?
    No where did they predict this.


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      handjive

      Further info from link:

      “The land has been thought to be suitable only for light grazing since Surveyor-General George Goyder established the boundary in 1865.

      But Mr Larwood believes times have changed.

      “I think we’ve lost Goyder’s Line,” he said. “It’s a bit like the theory of the rain following the plough in the 1870s. It didn’t happen.

      “We can do so much more with the available moisture these days.”
      .
      Something else to google from our school days: Goyder’s Line & “the theory of the rain following the plough in the 1870s.”


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        Safetyguy66

        Handjive thats a great example of the kinds of information that built my skeptic viewpoint.

        Over the years I have often seen evidence presented on “other topics” that is delivered without thought for how it might fit in the overall picture of the AGW polemic. Its that sort of information that often completely contradicts many basic principles of AGW but is delivered outside of the framework of the debate.

        Its almost like your getting a scientists “actual” views at those times and not the concocted version they feel compelled to spout so they can continue to eat in the CSIRO canteen the next day without being tarred and feathered.


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    dylan

    I’m still not sure whether Michael The Realist was for AGW or was against but providing the requisite opposition?

    Appears to me that the genuine believers of AGW have been busy elsewhere just trying to survive political armageddon.


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    Andrew McRae

    Quick roundup of Big Brother/fascism analyses.

    An Open Letter to My Former NSA Colleagues by Charles Seife.

    The agency insisted, over and over, that the weapons we were building—and weapons they are, even if they’re weapons of information—would never be turned on our own people, but would only be used upon our enemies.
    What do we do now that we have to face the fact that the Agency broke its word?

    Google and the NSA by Julian Assange.

    So [Google] started doing what big bad American companies do, from Coca Cola to Northrop Grumman. It started leaning heavily on the State Department for support, and by doing so it entered into the Washington DC system. A recently released statistic shows that Google now spends even more money than Lockheed Martin on paid lobbyists in Washington.


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    pat

    am amazed the iran/iraq/syria gas pipeline has its first mention that i know of in Western MSM in the 2 & a half years of anti-Syrian coverage. mind u, it has the wrong date for the siging of the MoU, which was July 2011. also, it’s not in the print edition & the headline should say “fueled by energy (or oil & gas) interests:

    30 Aug: Guardian: Syria intervention plan fueled by oil interests, not chemical weapon concern
    Massacres of civilians are being exploited for narrow geopolitical competition to control Mideast oil, gas pipelines
    In 2009 – the same year former French foreign minister Dumas alleges the British began planning operations in Syria – Assad refused to sign a proposed agreement with Qatar that would run a pipeline from the latter’s North field, contiguous with Iran’s South Pars field, through Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and on to Turkey, with a view to supply European markets – albeit crucially bypassing Russia. Assad’s rationale was “to protect the interests of [his] Russian ally, which is Europe’s top supplier of natural gas.”
    Instead, the following year, Assad pursued negotiations for an alternative $10 billion pipeline plan with Iran, across Iraq to Syria, that would also potentially allow Iran to supply gas to Europe from its South Pars field shared with Qatar. The Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for the project was signed in July 2012 – just as Syria’s civil war was spreading to Damascus and Aleppo – and earlier this year Iraq signed a framework agreement for construction of the gas pipelines.
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/aug/30/syria-chemical-attack-war-intervention-oil-gas-energy-pipelines

    signing that MoU appears to have ramped up the Opposition (inside & outside Syria:

    BBC Syria Timeline
    Opposition organises – 2011 July
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14703995


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      Andrew McRae

      Sheesh, you’d think we would have learned by now. Whenever anyone proposes a war, follow the money.

      Maybe it’s time to update that old saying…
      If goods do not cross borders inside pipelines owned by the right people, armies will.


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