JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Media Watch witch hunt

“In the old days they would have just bound her, thrown her into the lake, and waited to see if she floated.

Though a primitive method of witch-hunting, it would surely be far more effective than Jonathan’s, and would require much less in taxpayer funding.” 

[MediaWatch comment by Preacher]

Jennifer Marohasy belongs to the “wrong” tribe, according to the ABC’s Media Watch program.

Media Watch is panting with excitement because — stop me if you’ve heard this before — she’s a scientist who earns money. My favorite part of the inadvertent expose-of-ABC-bias was the sneering voice-over, meant to be Marohasy or any supporter of her: petulant, petty and childish.  The full ABC-festival-of-smug is right on display, thanks, as always, to the Taxpayers of Australia.

It’s so bad, it’s satirical:

MW:   But many real journalists struggle when reporting science.

Struggle?” Mr Holmes? You mean they are so confused about the real world, they think if a US group funds a group who write about a distantly connected topic, that therefore, ergo, and quid pro quo — that tiny funding demonstrates that Lake Alexandrina was always freshwater? Golly? Normally weak journalists settle for a direct ad hom, but Media Witch, like Wendy Carslisle, go out of their way to hunt for second degree nonsense. Could the tenuous connection be more distant?

MW: Let me be clear. We’re not suggesting [that Marohasy is corrupted by personal gain]. Nor are we disputing the AEF’s right to promote her views.

If Media Watch wasn’t trying to denigrate Jennifer Marohasy’s credibility, why did they spend over half their time detailing her funding sources, and even the funding sources of her funding sources, no wait, that was the funding source for the funding source for her former role. They also went after the sponsors of one of the groups she.. err… used to be a founding director of.

Why do the ABC think this is relevant to the debate on water flows in the Murray River:

  1. Because if the ABC can name and shame donors to the wrong “science” on the Murray River, the water flow will be restored?
  2. So ABC journalists would know they face an inquisition if they interview Marohasy?
  3. To intimidate businesses who support groups with non-ABC compliant views and deter donations?
  4. So ABC viewers would know who to jeer at? Good guys: Greenpeace. Bad guys: Australian Environment Foundation.

Has Media Watch ever asked a single scientist who is sponsored by The Australian Government (which has a $10 billion policy at stake) whether they ought to declare their activism or funding? “Have you ever, now or in the past been funded by the Government?” (Pace Tim Blair.)

Oh but look, Media Watch missed that spot of research that showed Jennifer Marohasy has been writing about the Murray River since 2003, before the AEF existed? So was she influenced back then by funding that had not yet occurred? Could it be — alternate hypothesis coming — could it be that she formed a view of the Murray as a scientist that left her out in the cold, with no funding, and rather than sit back and give up, she was so determined she helped found a whole organization to seek ways to continue her work? And if that funding comes from the US, the question journalists should be asking is “why is scientific policy philanthropy so dead in Australia?”

At least one ABC reporter “gets it” — good on you Anne Delaney — ABC in the regions still has some good people. She let Media Watch know that even though their studios were evacuated in a flood zone, she was sticking to the ABC charter (and thus he wasn’t), and quoting it right back at him.

“We’re sure Media Watch are aware of that, but just to be clear, the standard for dealing with matters of contention is to “Present a diversity of perspectives so that, over time, no significant strand of thought or belief within the community is knowingly excluded or disproportionately represented.
Anne Delaney’s response to Media Watch’s questions

The key message?

MW: We are saying that journalists too easily swallow, and pass on without challenge, highly controversial claims put forward in the name of science, by organisations whose agendas aren’t obvious from their names.

Exactly Johnathon, please let us know how Media Watch savaged all the media outlets that did not quote (or even mention) ClimateGate emails or the manipulation  of peer review in mainstream climate science; the dire lack of funds for scientists with alternative views; reports of IPCC copying Greenpeace documents and having links to the WWF?

Or is the real role of Media Watch to criticize opponents of the regulating class, to be an enforcer, a simple thug in the class warfare engulfing the western world as the regulating class erode our freedoms — including the freedom to express an opinion contrary to theirs?

The future of the ABC?

I’m feeling conciliatory today – Anne Delaney’s response means I could be talked into giving tax dollars for the ABC if we just sacked all the capital city teams, and left the regions. Let’s split the ABC, and privatize the city-based-arm.

For some actual science:

Ssee Jennifer Marohasy’s latest, and well written account: Time to Rethink Basic Assumptions about the Murray and the Planned Water Reform.

 ——————————————————————————-

Comments on the ABC site:

MediaWatch

Murray Shaw :

Fail to understand the reasoning behind tonights item on jennifer Marohasy’s report into the MDBA. Marohasy is a marine micro-biologist with impeccable credentials having worked for the ACF but left when a report into farm runoff impacts upon the GBR was not what the ACF required and published falsehoods that were used in a QLD election campaign. She next appeared to demolish the Wentworth Group of Concerned scientists report of 2002, that claimed that the Murray was “dying”. Pointed out that Prof. Peter Collins was the head of CSIRO Land and Water and that organisation had been paid $60M a year for over 70 years and all their measurements for salinity, turbidity, and fish stocks showed a river in robust health. She then went on to demolish a further CSIRO report headlined in “The Australian”, “Murray Cod Extinct?”. This report pointed to the fact that CSIRO had expented in excess of $6M over hundreds of manhours in some umpteen locations and had failed to catch a Murray Cod. Ms. Marohasy thought that extroadinary and spent 60c calling the Deniliquin Fishing club only to find that they had recently conducted their Annual Yamaha Fisherama fishing competition and that contrary to the CSIRO report quite a number of Murray Cod were caught, some forty or so, with only a couple of “keepers” indicating a young population. Also recorded was a very low count of European Carp indicating they were in decline. As she said, all the CSIRO had proven for their $6M was that scientists cannot fish.
The reason for the above is that you have denigrated her work without demonstrating any faults, while giving the likes of Richard Kingston credibility, again without asking them to demonstrate the error of her ways.
If salinity is still a problem in the Lower Lakes, over the past 18 months enough water has flowed into SA to fill the lakes five times over, demonstrating that lack of water is not the problem, rather the engineering of the barrages, and the diversion over the past 70 years of the SE SA drainage water that used to flow to the Coorong and the Lower Lakes directly to the Southern Ocean thereby increasing the salinity particularly in the Coorong.
I think you owe the viewers and Dr. Marohasy an explanation…..

Oguzhan Tandogac :

When did MW question the motives of Tim Flannery and David Karoly or the late Stephen Scheneider or James Hanson of NASA GISS who is an anti coal activist thrice arrested for demonstrations against coal mines.
When did you question their science? The answer is never, you swallowed their science hook line and sinker.

Hypocrites much?

Colours :

Ummm, I don’t see the problem Jonathon. Every week the main stream media acts as a channel for green group and left wing press releases without any effort at investigation and you don’t say a word. Why is this different? Is the AEF any worse than WWW, Greenpeace, GetUP and the like.

David Brewer :

Our public debate is polarised enough already without Media Watch arguing for ad hominem journalism.

JamesT :

The trouble with Media Watch, exemplified by the pompous, self righteous and snide Mr Holmes and his gang of undergraduate researchers, is that they have no insight into their own narrow minded totalitarian world view.Basically they think that there is only one side to an issue–their own.
Their justification for their concerted attack on someone whose views they don’t like as media scrutiny is absurd.
None of them could hold down a job anywhere but the ABC. Even the ABC must be now having its doubts about this intellectually dishonest and embarrassing bigotfest.

 

 Andrew Bolt has more good questions

UPDATE: Jennifer Marohasy writes in comment #18:

How stupid was I to think the Media Watch team might actually take an interest in understanding the natural history of the Lower Murray. They asked me some pretty stupid questions 10 days or so ago. Clearly they had been fed a lot of misinformation… perhaps by some government-funded scientists?

I thought I gave them very straight forward and clear responses backed up with evidence. But they were clearly not interested.

My answer to their original questions are here: http://jennifermarohasy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/JenniferMarohasy_ReplytoMediaWatch_Amended12March.pdf

Apparently not understanding or liking my answers they changed the questions and focus?

VN:F [1.9.22_1171]
Rating: 8.7/10 (100 votes cast)
Media Watch witch hunt, 8.7 out of 10 based on 100 ratings

Tiny Url for this post: http://tinyurl.com/75dmla4

167 comments to Media Watch witch hunt

  • #
    Rereke Whakaaro

    Or is the real role of Media Watch to criticize opponents of the regulating class, to be an enforcer, a simple thug in the class warfare engulfing the western world as the regulating class erode our freedoms — including the freedom to express an opinion contrary to theirs?

    Got it in one. “Who can guard the guards? Who is to watch the watchers?”

    It is the media’s job to keep the plebeians in line, and it is Media Watch’s job “to watch the watchers” – hence the name.

    Not subtle, but sometimes the truth is best hidden in plain sight.


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    Titas Aduxas

    Media Watch, Does anyone who is not a dedicated socialist still watch this hideous man and his utter tripe?.
    I look forward to the day when the ABC is brought to heel.


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    pattoh

    I sat through Mr Holmes embarrassing attempt at riding his high horse last night & was left shaking my head; by his own words he condemned himself & all of the journalists who have EVER deigned to get passionate about CAGW or spruik the mantra of the IPCC.

    When is the media EVER going to get serious, read & understand AGENDA21 & question the motives & question the science?
    We certainly deserve better from the ABC ( even for 8c a day) .

    Further compared to the paltry figures Mr Holmes was getting indignant about when throwing mud at Jennifer Marohasy I’d like to know how much he gets paid for his self-righteous rants.


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    Jock

    Jo I read your blog last week, and thought then that the questions posed by the Media Watch “journalist” seemed very specialised and knowledgable. Dare I say it but not very journalistic!! Who actually wrote the questions for Media watch? Certainly I doubt that the qualified journos at MW were good enough to draft them. Who wrote the questions for the MW “researchers” will be the true story to come out of this.


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      Kevin Moore

      Were the questions supplied by staff from an office in Canberras’ Parliament House?


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        Streetcred

        Or from one of Soros’ sycophants ?


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      • #
        Kevin Moore

        Quote from Jennifer Marohasy @ 18

        I trust this is not the case and that you will come to realize, after reviewing all the evidence, that it is Media Watch who may indeed have been misled by vested interests. These vested interests are concerned that my persistence with explaining the truth about the Murray River’s estuary, in particular the natural history of the Lower Lakes, could result in the unraveling of a A$10 billion government plan and expose serious omissions and inconsistencies in key scientific documents that underpin both South Australian and Commonwealth government policy.


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    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      … qualified journos …

      Oxymoron


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  • #
    Manfred

    The media were once known as a ‘fifth column’, charged with the capacity to undermine the ruling class by exposing a concealed truth. Today, they are little more than lilly-livered, yellow-bellied, sycophants, focused on their own navel, popularity, self-aggrandisement (“ooohhhhh….don’t shoot the messenger”) and the revenue stream generated by advertising. By the preceding definition, they cannot be relied upon to relay the truth, seek the facts or critically evaluate the information. Their intellect is limited: they have failed to realise that by their actions they undermine their own livelihood.


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    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      Hmm … I like that.

      The fourth estate:

      In old days men had the rack. Now they have the Press. That is an improvement certainly. But still it is very bad, and wrong, and demoralizing. Somebody — was it Burke? — called journalism the fourth estate. That was true at the time no doubt. But at the present moment it is the only estate. It has eaten up the other three. The Lords Temporal say nothing, the Lords Spiritual have nothing to say, and the House of Commons has nothing to say and says it. We are dominated by Journalism. – Oscar Wilde

      Has now become a fifth column:

      A cardinal technique of the fifth column is the infiltration of sympathizers into the entire fabric of the nation under attack and, particularly, into positions of policy decision and national defense. From such key posts, fifth-column activists exploit the fears of a people by spreading rumours and misinformation, as well as by employing the more standard techniques of espionage and sabotage. – Encyclopaedia Britannica [my bold]


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    • #
      mobilly1

      Manfred love the post .
      Just to add to your post , Socialism ( For want of a better name ) in the class room , Seems to have been a Government and msm fixation over the last 30 years, The media Journalists come from this meme, They know nothing else,History seems to be obsolete.
      The up and coming Journalists ,Then get to spent 3 to 5 years with the same
      meme just re-inforced. See link to how the education system is working in the USA and here in Australia .Here


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      • #
        Kevin Moore

        In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.
        Franklin D. Roosevelt

        There are Protocols which are religiously followed.


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  • #
    Alice Thermopolis

    MEDIA WITCH – CLIMATE INSTITUTE

    Complained many times to ABC RN on its persistent failure to identify the origins and nature of this alarmist lobby group without success. It is determined to deceive the public into believing CI is some kind of scientific body, one with an objective research agenda.

    Surprised it is permitted to use the word, “Institute”, in its business name. But is it OK? Can someone provide a legal opinion? [For example, can't register your business as "bank" if it is not a bank, etc.]

    Is Media Watch’s attack part of a deliberate and broader Oreskian-inspired agenda among scientifically-illiterate liberal arts folk to attempt to discredit sceptical voices and groups as naughty “merchants of doubt”?

    Another example: Steketee’s attack on Bob Carter in last Weekend OZ – “Scientists who trade in doubt”.

    The rot has well and truly set in when doubt becomes a pejorative word and Oreskes’ absurd conspiracy theories are rolled out constantly to belt any critic of the climate orthodoxy.

    For another perspective, see Mark Lawson’s excellent piece in today’s AFR Talking Point (p51): “BIG WET WASHES AWAY CLIMATE SUPPORT”. On CSIRO models:

    “For a model to achieve any status it has to make useful forecasts – that is, generate results that come somewhere near later observations. In other words, it has to be measured against the real world, and this seems to have been the problem [of why there is increasing public scepticism]. The real world decided to do something different.”

    Bravo!


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  • #
    MadJak

    Not one cent of my taxes to the ABC!

    NOT ONE MORE CENT!


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  • #

    The worst part of all this is that by targeting Marohasy, Holmes has now given her pathetic mix of snake oil, smoke and mirrors and almost Flanneryesque attention seeking, a veneer of credibility it has never deserved.

    Those of us who have been involved in the detailed challenges to the official science must now overcome the perception that all of our concerns are as tenuously based as Marohasy’s McScience. It is a case of “my most feared enemy is a foolish ally”, Sun Tsu.

    The only way the original estuary can possibly be “restored” is by removing the barrages AND taking back every drop of water from farmers. And if that ever happened the landless Marohasy’s of this world will be a million miles from care.


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    • #
      Brett_McS

      Ian (aka Lance Boyle) you would do better without the bitter tone. You make it sound like she jilted you in kindergarten or something.


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      • #

        No Brett, I used to think the same as she does about the barrages and had even arranged to do an article for her blog on it. But in the process of fact checking I uncovered additional information that compelled me to change my mind. I even did her the courtesy of advising her of that fact before hand but from that point on the shutters came down and any prospect of publication was out of the question.
        That kind of censorship from someone who has spent the past decade holding herself out as some sort of champion of the free flow of ideas is just as offensive as the climate mafiosi.


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      Re, “The only way the original estuary can possibly be “restored” is by removing the barrages AND taking back every drop of water from farmers. And if that ever happened the landless Marohasy’s of this world will be a million miles from care” no Ian it would entail removing all infrastructure from the Murray River’s source to the Sea – Snowy Mountain Scheme, Dartmouth, Hume all locks and weirs!


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      Gbees

      Hi Ian, please provide links to your published science on the subject. Thanks.


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    J.H.

    Jennifer Marohasy said, all the CSIRO had proven for their $6M was that scientists cannot fish.

    And as an ex Commercial fisherman, Cray diver, Trawlerman, etc…. I can absolutely testify to the veracity of that claim…. Scientists are the worlds most useless fishermen…. Back in the mid eighties, during a cray tagging survey they would often dive close to us, we would be catching 50 kg of craytails for a morning dive, about 100 to 150 crayfish depending on size…. and these scientists would find none, nada, zero. They used to hate us….. and we’d be laughin’…. But we’re not laughin’ now. Actually we’re not fishing now.

    Marine biologists don’t do science, certainly not when it comes to Fisheries management or any Marine “management”…. It’s all eco activism under the guise of “Science”.

    Taxpayers get ripped off to the tune of hundreds of millions, Fishing industries and Farming get screwed by propaganda and destroyed.

    …And Australians lose Sovereignty over vast tracts of land and ocean when they become “World Heritage” listed and UNESCO starts interfering in an Australian citizen’s right to use their OWN country.

    Won’t see Media Watch doing anything about that though….. except supporting it.


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    • #
      memoryvault

      .
      A bit O/T but JH can I ask your opinion of something?

      A very long time ago now I was in Geraldton WA when the gubmint of the day introduced minimum sizes for crayfish and a lot of other marine species. I happened to find myself in a bar one night chatting with an old crayfisherman, who looked about 150 – but super fit – and like he was made of dried leather.

      His opinion of minimum fish sizes was “it will all end badly”. When pressed he explained that the minimum sizes had all been set at about the size the species starts to breed. Millions are born, but only a very small minority survive to sexual maturity.

      His opinion was that we could take all the immature ones we wanted, and all it would mean was some predators would have to work harder for a meal. However, in taking the breeders we were guaranteeing that fish stocks and average size would dwindle over the years.

      That seems to be pretty-much what has happened, but I have no idea if it is because he was right, or for some other reason. I’d love to hear the opinion of another long-time professional, if you’d care to give it.


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      • #
        brc

        It can’t be a coincedence that most of the fish caught are always just under the legal limit.

        A bag limit per head makes much more sense than legal sizes to me. If you’re in deep enough water, you just end up with dead fish floating around the boat when you throw them back.


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      • #
        Andrew McRae

        Lemme get this right. Since the majority of juveniles would have died anyway, only a small number of the juveniles caught is depriving the future of breeders. If you have a constant market demand for a mass of crayfish per day, but you have a rapidly decreasing statistical distribution of count over age, then increasing the minimum age for market will increase the percentage of marketed crays that are aged at the minimum age. Same tonnage concentrated into a smaller finite lifespan range. More breeders taken than without the limit. Seems to make sense to me.

        Irony detector sounding alarm bells here.

        Since this outcome was predictable in theory, it implies the bureaucrats who imposed this limit to begin with neither listened to scientists about basic statistics nor listened to the fishermen who had the most interest in running a sustainable fishing industry.

        Small government and free markets; Are we learning our lessons yet?

        OTOH, was there a reluctance by fishermen to move from open water fishing to fish farming? Australia’s population increased by nearly 50% (6.5 million) between 1972 and 2002, so perhaps increased demand outstripping natural replacement was the cause?


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        • #
          Catamon

          Interestingly enough with the crays on the west coast, populations are pretty well tracked 4 years in advance of commercial size by monitoring puerulus settlement. Things seemed to be going along fairly well for years, but then, more fishing a lot further offshore as boats got bigger and navigation easier. Were some big catches for a while, and then a drop off in coastal catches.

          It thought (and more research needs doing) that these way offshore areas may have actually been sustaining the coastal stocks for a long time. Now that they are being hit, less recruitment to the coastal fishery.

          On size for taking? Well, its pretty well established that the bigger crays are better breeders, and that’s why there are max size limits as well as minimum.

          His opinion was that we could take all the immature ones we wanted

          Probably betrays a lack of understanding as to where/when the predation is occurring on the juveniles. Most of it is when they are zooplankton, not when they have settled out and are growing from puerulus to “crays”.


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  • #
    Tony Hansen

    ..MW: We are saying that journalists too easily swallow, and pass on without challenge, highly controversial claims put forward in the name of science, by organisations whose agendas aren’t obvious from their names.

    Would that be Agenda 21?


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  • #
    rosco

    Holmes is an irrational idiot seemingly incapable of anything but abuse for those he chooses to disagree with – but his kind apparently do not see anything with using public money against part of the community.

    I am completely certain he has absolutely no expertise in any scientific endeavour and is incapable of describing the so called “greenhouse effect”.

    He is a nobody and the ratings of his pathetic smear show reflect this.

    Ignore these morons – to rise to their bait only gives them some oxygen when it is clear they are starving for attention.

    To think I once watched this drivel – he is equally as despicable as the worst “shock jock” and just as lacking in intellect.

    I want my 8 cents a day back !!!


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    • #
      Allen Ford

      I am completely certain he has absolutely no expertise in any scientific endeavour and is incapable of describing the so called “greenhouse effect”.

      “so called “greenhouse effect” is spot on. See here for some nifty experimetnal data invalidating the GHE.

      Nothing like a bit of hard data to confound the sloppy thinkers like Holmes!


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  • #
    memoryvault

    .
    What Media Watch attempted to do to Jennifer was reprehensible, however, it is by no means a recent development for the ABC.

    Back in the 80′s when my newsletter “The Inside News” was at its height, 0055 phone numbers were introduced here. These were the forerunners of today’s 1900 “premium recorded services”. At the time the only thing 0055 numbers were used for were “sexy phone call” services, and prerecorded Tarot and Astrology readings.

    I introduced a prerecorded 0055 news service that was updated every Friday that proved to be very popular, and made a lot of money. Then I figured out how to make it work in reverse – on demand – and every time I referred to a document in my newsletter or my recorded news service, readers or listeners could dial a 0055 number, and for a small fee download a copy of the document by fax (remember this was pre-email days). This made me even more money.

    Back in those days there was an ABC program called “The Investigators”. They contacted me and said they were planning to do a program on 0055 numbers, and since I appeared to be the only person in Australia making money out of the service not based on sex or fortune-telling, they wanted to include me in the show.

    To cut a long story short, there never was a program planned on 0055 numbers. I was the only person ever contacted or interviewed. The entire thrust of the planned program was to paint me as this well financed “right-wing extremist” financing my nefarious activities with money cheated from the gullible via the 0055 services.

    Because I refused to play along, the program never went to air.

    That was late ’88 or early ’89.
    Nothing has changed.


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    • #
      Tony Hansen

      Good heavens MV, 25 years as a potentialy… “well financed “right-wing extremist”.. and you are still stuck conversing with us punters(or are we muppets?).
      How could you ever miss that ‘Big Oil’ funding?
      But I’m not blaming you.
      I missed it too.


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  • #
    Sonny

    Hi Jo,

    Slightly off topic… But Do you back up all the data in this blog?
    I think it would be naive to not consider the possibility that in the not so distant future the Australian Government might see it fit to have this blog shut down.

    For the purposes of historical documentation and evidence it would be wonderful to have this all backed up and perhaps even sent to many people via a text message.

    Furthermore, I think there is a need to establish a role of “climate change historian”.
    The children of the future, (provided they are not under the control of the UN world governance),
    will need evidence of the propaganda, the propogandists and also people such as yourselves, myself and people on this blog who resisted.

    Can I send you my contact details please?


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    • #
      Sonny

      Correction “text file”.


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    • #
      brc

      The internet never forgets.

      The blog should be being saved under the wayback machine.

      You can also use webcitation to cite any particular post, which takes a copy of the post at the time of citing it. Thus even if the original goes off-air, the contents are kept.

      Governments are not skilled enough to shut down the internet. The technology escaped before they realised what it was and what it meant. In time a complete shadow internet independent of official communications lines will exist, as will a decentralised and unbreakable DNS system.

      The internet was a Cold War DoD project to design a computer network that was unbreakable without smashing every single piece of equipment. And that’s what it is – an unbreakable, always on, always growing network. The futile attempts by governments to close it down or censor it are easily avoided due to the very design feature of making it impossible to shut down.


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      • #
        Rereke Whakaaro

        The futile attempts by governments to close it down or censor it are easily avoided due to the very design feature of making it impossible to shut down.How Commotion Wireless plans to enable digital communication in the face of an Internet shutdown

        Well, that is not strictly true. In an article in the IEEE Spectrum magazine we find this:

        26 July 2011—Shutting off digital communication is a new addition to the dictator’s tool kit. This year, between 28 January and 2 February, Hosni Mubarak shut down Egypt’s Internet and cellphone service, hobbling protestors’ ability to organize. In Libya, the Internet was suspended for 7 hours in February, and in June, the Syrian government cut off most of the country’s access for three days.

        That was possible because the governments owned the communication networks (the copper and the fibre) that the internet uses for its backbone.

        But where there is a will, there is a way, because the article goes on to say:

        Fortunately, in a world full of hackers, technology is hard to control, even for autocrats. Hackers are creating a way for citizens to build their own communication networks from the ground up, using computers, cellphones, and wireless routers. Such networks—called mobile ad hoc networks, or MANETs—would circumvent centralized communication hubs, enabling users to talk and share information in the face of a shutdown.

        But these primarily rely on wireless communications, so it would be relatively easy for governments to jam the network by swamping any signals in the bands used by cellphones and wireless routers … get the picture?

        And never assume that the wireless router sitting in your home, connecting the family computers, does not contain a “kill switch” that can be sent down the wire at any time.

        Having a false sense of security means having no security at all.


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        • #
          Andrew McRae

          http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/03/19/the-pirate-bay-to-fly-server-drones-to-avoid-law-enforcement

          These hacker guys are indulging in wishful thinking. One well-aimed bullet can put a drone out of action. Since the people who need access to it will need to know when it will be hovering over their region, the drone’s enemies will also know.

          I think a crowdsourced USB flash drive sneakernet would be more resilient, although very slow and useless for person-to-person communication.


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        • #
          brc

          Rereke – you prove my point perfectly.

          The governments of those countries shut the internet down for a couple of days. They didn’t -couldn’t- kill it.

          All these petty actions by small time dictators do is provide motivation for people to come up better ad-hoc and shadow network technology. And note this is drastic action when the government wants to protect itself from citzenry. For a government still hoping to keep the citizens on-side, killing the internet is a non-option.

          Jamming the wireless is a good thought but ultimately they can’t stop all frequencies at all times, and if you’re going off-government, there’s no need to stick to the officially sanctioned frequencies.

          The points to take away are these:
          - the smartest people are not, and will not, work for the government
          - you don’t need deep pockets or large workforces to circumvent official communications technology
          - the governments need their own communications channels open, thereby always providing a way to hijack

          While the governments of the world will occasionally win a battle, the war is essentially lost. Communications technology is like ideas – once they are out of the bottle, impossible to put back in. There are several accounts of WW2 POW groups building their own radio sets from pilfered bits and pieces. Once the knowledge is out there, and the parts are freely available, it’s as good as done.

          And never assume that the wireless router sitting in your home, connecting the family computers, does not contain a “kill switch” that can be sent down the wire at any time.

          Unless you have convincing evidence of this, I call BS. If you did have convincing evidence, then smart people would have a patch ready in 24 hours or less. If there was such a ‘kill message’ able to be sent down the line, then it would be trivial to identify it and block it.


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            Rereke Whakaaro

            I take your points, and accept what you say.

            But I was not trying to argue against your position, only pointing out that it is not quite as simple as you made it sound.

            The problems faced by Egypt, Libya, and Syria, was that Government communications also relied on the same internet backbone that the general populace were using. You killed one, you killed both. It was not, therefore sustainable.

            In the nature of things, other one-horse regimes will have learnt from that, and will be busy building parallel networks for Government use only.

            The United States has such a parallel network since the mid 1980′s – it started life as MILNET, and is currently called NIPRNet (Non-classified Internet Protocol Router Network). I understand that there is also a third “internet” in the US for non-military government communications, although I know nothing about it (including its acronym).

            I played a bit-part in the original ARPA development project that grew into the Internet as we know it today. Around 1975-6, I was “liaising” with The Defense Communications Agency, in the US, when the “Internet” as it finally became, was still under military control.

            It grew out of a research project for Universities to communicate with each other, without the need for point to point teleprinter circuits.

            IBM was heavily involved around that time, and established the first worldwide “email” network, called VNet, which was used for purely commercial purposes.

            It was never designed to be “a Cold War DoD project … that was unbreakable”. That story is an urban myth, and was never true of ARPANET. The truth is more prosaic – the equipment used relied on hand-soldered circuit boards with single wired transistors, capacitors, resistors, etc. They were called IMP’s (todays Routers). They constantly broke, so resilience was designed into the system to overcome the numerous equipment failures. The threat of nuclear war was the least of the worries.

            As for routers with the kill-switches; they are currently made in China, primarily for domestic use (good communist regimes leave nothing to chance). They are also “available” for purchase by regimes that are friendly towards China. If and when China starts getting export orders from those friendly regimes, who can say where they will end up.

            I think a few facts might trump your call of BS.


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            brc

            I think a few facts might trump your call of BS.

            Fair enough. Props to you for working on early days of ARPANET. The Dod project story dates back to my university days, unless I’m clouding history (totally possible).


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            Rereke Whakaaro

            The Dod project story dates back to my university days …

            Well, there you go …

            Since when did students ever let the facts get in the way of a good story? :-)


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          Numberwang

          And the National Broadband Network and Internet filter would enable the Australian gov’t to do what, exactly? :-)


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    PK

    There is also a radio network (mainly government funded) called RPH. This stands for Reading and Print Handicapped. The network is primarily aimed at sight impaired persons, hence its main function as a reading service.
    If anyone has the time or the patience to listen to this station and get the drift of its editorial policy, they’d find an even worse bias towards “the consensus science.”
    This is even more shameful as the consumers of this propaganda presumably have little recourse to other sources of information.
    Letters criticising the lack of a broad spread of coverage have gone unanswered. Go figure.


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    Geoff Sherrington

    If you are considering filing a complaint about the ABC, here is my outcome. It’s about 5 pages long, but not too compressed.
    http://www.geoffstuff.com/ABC%20Complaint%20Consol%20Mar_2012.doc


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    Geoff Sherrington

    While at it, you might like to figure out this one. It derives from the blog of Jennifer Marohasy, where we first exchanged pleasantries early in 2006. It seems the Murray Darling Basin Authority had worked out how to overcome drought for farmers. Helped by Prof. Flannery.

    http://www.geoffstuff.com/mdba.jpg


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    Catamon

    I saw the media watch report last night. “Junk Science”, well that’s a pretty provocative assertion, and media watch’s issue with this seems to have been uncritical acceptance of of the AEF’s position by journo’s when they should have been, well, skeptical.

    None of this scientific opposition is even hinted at in most of the media coverage.

    Is really the nub of the media watch report and Yup they do touch on whether or not the AEF has an agenda and whether the supporters of the anti-barrage position have a commercial agenda around water allocations. Fair nuff.

    Good on media watch for encouraging journo’s to actually display a bit of investigative nous and healthy skepticism rather than just doing articles by media release regurgitation.


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      memoryvault

      . . . whether or not the AEF has an agenda and whether the supporters of the anti-barrage position have a commercial agenda around water allocations.

      So, if Group A (the AEF and Jennifer) have an agenda (the preservation of the lakes), and Group B (those with a financial stake) have an overlapping agenda (that cutting water allocations is not the answer), then both groups can be conveniently lumped together for criticism.
      Tarred with the same brush, so to speak.

      Fine.

      By EXACTLY the same logic JuLIAR and the entire Labor government, Brownshirt Bob and the Greens, the WWF, the ACF, GetUp, SepticScience, Phil Jones, Michael Mann, Steffen, Karoly and Flannery, plus Greenpeace AND Malcolm Turnbull can all conveniently be lumped together with Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, and the Rothschilds various banking interests.

      Can’t wait for the Media Watch expose.


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        Catamon

        Well MV, the controversy is actually whether or not the AEF agenda is “preservation” of the lakes. They certainly have an opinion as to what that means. There are other opinions out there as to the nature of the lakes,their history, and what preservation actually means in this context that have to date, prevailed.

        The media watch story was about how journo’s are particularly bad at reporting science matters and i think they have it right there.

        By EXACTLY the same logic JuLIAR and the entire Labor government, Brownshirt Bob and the Greens, the WWF, the ACF, GetUp, SepticScience, Phil Jones, Michael Mann, Steffen, Karoly and Flannery, plus Greenpeace AND Malcolm Turnbull can all conveniently be lumped together with Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, and the Rothschilds various banking interests.

        Only if your an idiot. Oh, yes its MV!!


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          memoryvault

          Only if YOU’RE an idiot. Oh, yes its MV!!

          Emphasis (and spelling correction) added.

          At least I’m an “idiot” with a basic understanding of spelling and grammar, Cat.


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          Kevin Moore

          Catamon, read this -

          Quote from Jennifer Marohasy @ 18

          Interestingly, the Yarra River has 57 per cent of its natural flow left within the river, i.e. available to the environment. Currently the Murray has a similar level of water extraction, with 58 per cent remaining for the environment. In June 2011, the Yarra was short-listed for a prestigious international environmental award, while the Murray River was being described by activist group, GetUp!, as on the brink of ecological collapse because of inadequate environmental flow.


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      rukidding

      Good on media watch for encouraging journo’s to actually display a bit of investigative nous and healthy skepticism rather than just doing articles by media release regurgitation.

      So we can look forward to an expose of Dr Flannery and his drought predictions.


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    How stupid was I to think the Media Watch team might actually take an interest in understanding the natural history of the Lower Murray. They asked me some pretty stupid questions 10 days or so ago. Clearly they had been fed a lot of misinformation… perhaps by some government-funded scientists?

    I thought I gave them very straight forward and clear responses backed up with evidence. But they were clearly not interested.

    My answer to their original questions are here: http://jennifermarohasy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/JenniferMarohasy_ReplytoMediaWatch_Amended12March.pdf

    Apparently not understanding or liking my answers they changed the questions and focus?


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      I think what they’ve been fed is 3 decades of ABC inner-city culture. The ad homs and financial “searches” are just what they do. As far as I can tell, there are no science debates there, except on issues that don’t involve power and money. (From discussions I’ve had, on topics that matter there’s a consensus, and the answer is always big-government.)


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    handjive

    “Media Watch is panting with excitement because —…”

    Media Watch is panting with excrement because -…

    There, just fixed that…


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    rukidding

    Hmm wonder how the new media watchdog would handle complaints on this kind of journalism.
    I guess it would be along the lines of “nothing to see here move along”.


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    Doug Proctor

    Jo -

    Do you have the feeling that the warmist camp is getting more belligerent, more extreme in their aggressive defence each week? I see more outlandish positions, papers as time is going on. Personal attacks on skeptics, not on their technical points, seem to be increasing. Attacks on the partiality of the MSM IN SUPPORT OF SKEPTICS! are getting virulent. The warmists seem to be seething, flailing out these days.

    The ability of Glieck to stand in front of an audience as he did last week (see Delingpole)as an HONOURED speaker, 17 days after the Fakegate revelation, is revelatory in the Biblical sense. The world is coming to an end, apparently, and anyone, anything, is acceptable to the warmist camp if it furthers their cause.

    We are getting so beyond science.


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    Mike Craig

    I’ve been fascinated lately at the parallels I am finding between your ABC and the CBC here in Canada. Our CBC gets $1.1B in taxpayer monies every year. It is clearly left leaning and gets quite involved in a number of Canadian issues. Yet is one of the worst offenders for avoiding FOIA requests citing “journalistic confidentiality” and requirements to remain “competitive” in the media market. Competitive? Is that what you call an annual deficit of over one billion dollars?

    And as I have just read, like your ABC our CBC does a good service to remote communities but is simply a money drain for everything else. We don’t have the equivalent of a “Media Watch” yet but that’s good reason for me to keep tabs on what’s happening down there so I can watch for clues here.

    All the best from Canada….


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    John from CA

    “Apparently not understanding or liking my answers they changed the questions and focus?”

    What? You mean they wrote a fiction after the fact?

    WOW, there’s a new low in journalism.


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      memoryvault

      WOW, there’s a new low in journalism.

      To suggest Australian journalists could reach any sort of “low” is to imply there was ever a “high” to fall from in the first place.
      Sadly that is not the case.

      In 1986 I featured in a national, live-to-air, face-to-face interview with Terry Willesee, broadcast direct from the Seven Network studios in Sydney.

      Only trouble was, I was in a motel in South Australia at the time, I had never ever been in the Seven Network studios in Sydney, I hadn’t ever even seen Terry Willesee on TV, and I wouldn’t have known him if I fell over him in a pub.


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        Truthseeker

        Memoryvault, is that not grounds for defamation regardless of what was said?

        Did they already have footage of you from another event or did they use a body double as a proxy?


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          memoryvault

          .
          It was undoubtedly grounds for something TS.
          Unfortunately such things cost money, and I had even less of it back then than I do now.

          It was back in the days before the complete amalgamation of the networks. Most states had their own news and (local) current affairs shows, and only crossed to “national” shows for major events. The one commercial exception in Perth at the time was Mike Willesee’s “A Current Affair” on Nine.

          The footage in the Seven Willesee interview was from a mostly unrelated interview I had done a year before for local Perth TV.

          When I finally met Terry Willesee in 1988 he thought it was a great joke – even after I explained that it nearly put me in prison for 12 years and my wife for 16.

          Journalists obviously have a warped sense of humour.


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            Truthseeker

            Memoryvault, the mechanics of what they had done make sense to me now.

            Can you elaborate on the following?

            “even after I explained that it nearly put me in prison for 12 years and my wife for 16.”

            I think that it is relevant to this thread, but I can understand if you do not want to give any more details.


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            memoryvault

            .
            In 1985 I had been working in the Department of Social Security for five years, and was pretty fed up with what I had seen. A Perth reporter had done a few stories in the “Daily News” on welfare problems, so I phoned him up and told him a few home truths. That led to the end of my public service career, and subsequently to the interview for Perth local TV. None of it ever made it outside of WA at the time.

            A year later in 1986 welfare problems again made the headlines as part of the “need” for a national ID Card. Out of the blue I was contacted by a producer from Mike Willesee’s “A Current Affair” about doing some sort of expose.

            That gelled into Thumper and I travelling across Australia defrauding the system in each state – me on the dole – and Thumper on Supporting Parent’s Benefits. This culminated in Sydney with me also getting a full-time job. It was filmed in different places by various Channel Nine crews across Australia.

            I had little fear of prosecution as at the time the Social Services Act stated it was an offence to make false and misleading statements with the intent of defrauding the Commonwealth. I had left sealed statutory declarations with my bank manager and the local police sergeant that it was always our “intent” to give the money back.

            Once the exercise was finished Thumper and I plus two year old son headed off for a leisurely trip back to Perth – we had two weeks and intended to make a holiday of it.

            We were in the middle of SA when Charles Blunt, then Opposition Spokesman for Social Services, by sheer coincidence asked a question on notice of the then Minister, Brian Howe, relating to the claims I had made a year before. I was mentioned by name.

            Back in those days if one of us mere plebs got mentioned in Parliament, everybody wanted to interview you. And thus it was with Terry Willesee. Since I was a WA boy Channel Seven in Perth were contacted, but they couldn’t locate me – as I was in the middle of nowhere in SA at the time.

            But they did find the prerecorded interview from the year before, and it was sent to Sydney, where it was subjected to some masterful re-editing, and I “appeared” the following night on national TV doing a “live” interview with Terry Willesee on Channel Seven from Sydney.

            It was done so well it even fooled the crowd at “A Current Affair”. There was a lot of rivalry at the time between Mike and Terry Willesee. Mike was livid and wanted to can the whole show with me. It took a lot of effort to get the thing back on their agenda.

            Anyway, it did go to air, and the excrement hit the fan in a big way. The story was picked by pretty-much every radio and TV station and newspaper across Australia. What I had not counted on was the then Labor government, with the full cooperation of the Coalition, changing the Social Services Act to make it an offence to make false and misleading statements with the intent of making false and misleading statements.

            I was charged with 12 counts and Thumper with 16 counts, and each one carried a penalty of one year in prison. Once we had been charged, the Labor government, with the full cooperation of the Coalition, changed the law back again, making us the only people ever so charged.

            We had no choice but to plead guilty, and the prosecutor demanded the judge throw the book at us, and sentence us to the full extent of the law, with the individual years being served consecutively, rather than cumulatively. That is, 12 for me, and 16 for Thumper.

            Fortunately, and SOLELY because of the publicity generated by the “Current Affair” shows that almost didn’t happen because of the Terry Willesee deception, the judge refused to record convictions against us, and we walked free.


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            KinkyKeith

            Hi MV

            As a taxpayer you have my thanks for the efforts made to highlight social security fraud.

            Whenever politicians feel that they could be exposed it helps.

            The fact that both sides of politics saw fit to change the Law specially for you is probably the only case where they have had a mutual interest that requires a fix.

            Well done.

            Scarey stuff.


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            Truthseeker

            MemoryVault, that is a wonderful example of the all pervasive corruption of our parliamentary system. How fortunate that the judge choose the path of morality and integrity. A great cautionary tale of deception and self-interest finished with a message of hope.

            My sincere thanks to you for sharing this.


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            Rereke Whakaaro

            It is quite an honour to have a special law of your own.

            I am really impressed. You obviously managed to stick something sharp up a few bums that shouldn’t be in parliamentary seats.

            I tip my hat to you..


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            memoryvault

            It is quite an honour to have a special law of your own.

            Actually Rereke, I’ve got a few.

            For instance, before Thumper and I embarked on our little adventure, I had a word with my local police sergeant, about any “loose ends” I should clean up before leaving. I had a Mini panel van with a blown motor, and it had been my intention at some time to fix it. It was out of rego and he suggested I hand in the licence plates, which I did.

            Now, at the time, it was clearly stated on the back of a WA Drivers Licence, that number plates had to be handed within fifteen days of expiry of registration, UNLESS the intention was to re-register the vehicle. In that case, no time frame was given. Nonetheless, although it was common knowledge that I was in the process of repairing the vehicle, I took the sergeant’s advice and handed in the plates, although it was outside the fifteen days allowed.

            Soon after the above welfare fraud court case I termed the phrase “little gnome from the West” for then WA Premier, Brian Burke, on a local radio show.

            A couple of weeks later I was served with a summons charging me with the “late return of a vehicle licence plate”. I successfully defended the case simply on the basis of what was on the back of my licence, and subsequently all WA driver’s licences had to be amended and reissued.

            Although I was subsequently able to find a few examples of people charged with NON-return of a licence plate, to the best of my knowledge at the time I was the ONLY person ever charged in WA with LATE return of a licence plate.


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            Rereke Whakaaro

            I see:

            Item one. Troublemaker – tick.

            Item two. Repeat Troublemaker – tick.

            Item Three: Persistent Old Sod – tick.

            Well done!


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    Colin

    When I retired my ancient analogue TV set I didn’t bother replacing it.
    It seems I’m not missing much!


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    Allen Ford

    The left has only two polemical tactics, both totally devoid of intellectual content, pompous twittery à la Jonathan Holmes, and bovverboy aggro à la Anthony Albanese.

    It is heartening to see that a significant number of comments on the MW web site relating to the Marohasy item, is hostile to JH and his vacuous pomposity and abysmal lack of forensic skills.

    Bravo!


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    KeithH

    Doug Proctor @ 21

    “the warmist camp is getting more belligerent, more extreme in their aggressive defence each week? I see more outlandish positions, papers as time is going on. Personal attacks on skeptics, not on their technical points, seem to be increasing. Attacks on the partiality of the MSM IN SUPPORT OF SKEPTICS! are getting virulent.”

    Yes Doug, that is exactly what’s going on and you will see more of it, especially from now on in Australia’s lead-up to the next election! We are unfortunate enough to have arguably the most incompetent spendthrift government in Australian history led by two proven liars, Gillard and Swan (“there will be no carbon tax”) that will be absolutely awash with cash after July 31 from that self-same tax and the new mining tax. Rest assured none of it will be used to reduce the massive borrowings debt they’ve incurred, but in the next 18 months or so you will see the most blatant vote-buying pork-barrelling splurge ever and continued mindless, baseless attacks on anyone daring to speak out on the CAGW carbon tax scam or any other Labor policy deserving of justifiable criticism.

    They have marshalled their troops in all the government grants dependent bodies, ABC, CSIRO, BoM, Universities and the huge number of “climate change” bureaucracies and sundry spin-off parasitic alarmist ratbag organisations being funded (whether we like it or not) by Australian taxpayers. How sad it is that some of our once most prestigious and credible institutions like the first three mentioned have been infiltrated to such an extent that even the good work still being done by some is tainted by the trash of others!

    The socialist juggernaut is rolling full steam ahead in Australia and elsewhere and with such massive national and international funding behind it and so much investment money world-wide depending on the success of the alleged CO2 driven climate change scam for the continuation of spending on heavily subsidised destructive but economically useless renewable energy schemes like wind power, that I’m extremely doubtful it can be stopped.

    Poisonous pompous slugs like Jonathan Holmes are playing their part either knowingly or not, in the whole grand UN World Governance plan as set out in their Agenda 21 and before the snide comments start from the resident CAGW believers, that’s NOT a conspiracy theory as the UN makes no secret of it. Read it for yourselves.

    http://green-agenda.com/agenda21.html


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      lmwd

      We all need to play our part to fight back. Spread out and hit out at the propaganda we are getting bombarded with in the media. Keep it polite, but just keep challenging with facts! It is making a difference (well, maybe not the ABC but they are a lost cause and censor you out anyway).

      There are so many brilliantly informed people who comment on Jo’s Blog. Too good to be hidden away. I enjoy following your conversations here, but am especially heartened whenever I see a comment from someone I recognise in the mainstream media.


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    pattoh

    …..& course there was the wag who suggested that Mr Holmes was just trying to live up (measure up) to his famous namesake.( a 1970s actor of colourful repute)


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    pat

    20 March: Courier Mail: John Rolfe: POWER TRIP: Australian electricity price high, and to rise with carbon tax
    * Charges 70 per cent higher than the American average
    * A figure that will grow to 160 per cent in two years
    AUSTRALIANS pay 130 per cent more for electricity than Canadians, according to new research – a power premium to rise to 250 per cent once the carbon tax and locked-in price increases take effect…
    Energy Minister Martin Ferguson recently said Australians pay less than the OECD average, relying on a document called Energy In Australia 2012, which his department’s Bureau of Resources and Energy Economics (BREE) published three weeks ago. The document uses electricity prices from 2009-10…
    Mr Domanski (EUAA executive director) said: “Add in the carbon tax from July, further network price increases and renewable energy subsidies and inevitably our prices are pushed to the point where they are challenging Denmark and Germany as the most expensive in the world.”…
    However, The Telegraph understands Carbon Market Economics used 2011 IEA figures published before Mr Ferguson claimed Australian prices were below the OECD average.
    http://www.couriermail.com.au/money/australian-electricity-price-high-and-rising/story-e6freqoo-1226305729807

    the same nite Holmes was hammering the final nail in the coffin that is Media Watch, ABC radio was carrying a ridiculous Trade Union story on Wonthaggi desalination plant, which they are still pushing today. yet i still haven’t found a single ABC story that mentions the billion dollars of taxpayers’ money the plant has asked for, nor the delays, nor the outrageous wages, nor the fact it is already a white elephant.

    14 March: Herald Sun: Stephen Drill: Wages, deadline blowout for Wonthaggi desalination plant
    THE wages bill for the troubled Wonthaggi desalination plant has blown out by $1.7 million a week, but the project is still expected to be a year late despite increased manpower.
    There are now 758 electricians on site, twice as many as last year when contractor Thiess Degremont sacked 160 of workers over low-productivity claims.
    Overall, the number of workers on the project is now 2870, well above original estimates that only 1700 would be needed to build the plant in two years.
    Workers on the desalination site, which has been described as a “treasure island”, make $4000 a week…
    But AquaSure, the consortium that has the overall contract, has demanded the State Government provide a $1.3 billion loan to refinance its debt, and a 12-month deadline extension.
    The desalination plant will cost Victorians $24 billion over 28 years through higher water bills…
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/wages-deadline-blowout-for-wonthaggi-desalination-plant/story-fn7x8me2-1226299537722

    9 March: Australian: Sarah Martin: Adelaide desal debt will take a century to pay down
    DEBT associated with the Adelaide desalination plant will take 100 years to be paid down by taxpayers, South Australia’s government-owned water utility has revealed…
    Opposition Treasury spokesman Iain Evans said South Australians would be paying for the plant for decades to come.
    “Water prices will pay for the operating costs and the debt costs, but the debt won’t change just because we are not using the water,” he said. “They have built a desal plant that is bigger than we needed, they have totally mismanaged the project and South Australians are going to be paying for that through water costs for a long time to come.”
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/adelaide-desal-debt-will-take-a-century-to-pay-down/story-e6frgczx-1226294107119

    tell me again how we AREN’T ALLOWED to build coal-fired power stations, but we can sell coal to China!


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    Dante D. Leone

    A journalist/editor once said, in defending why they mostly reported pro-alarmist, that it was because of the consensus, so they couldn’t criticise it or attack it because it was established fact.

    But why did they only have that stance on certain subjects, like climate but not for certain western world religions or royalty. No answer.

    I didn’t take any courses in journalism, but even I understand that there’s something hinky about the established facts that need to be dug up when you’re told not to go digging.


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    pat

    Der Spiegel on CFL lightbulbs and more. read the comments. get angry. stop the madness:

    20 March: Bishop Hill: Environmentalists trashing the environment
    The “Environmentalists Trash the Environment” theme is one I return to occasionally here at BH, and there’s a splendid example in the latest edition of Der Speigel…
    “Because of the mercury, throwing broken energy-saving light bulbs into the ordinary trash is of course prohibited. A waste disposal company from Nuremberg in southern Germany has invented a machine that carefully cuts apart each light bulb and sucks out the fluorescent material and mercury. The mixture is then packed into airtight bags and filled into blue, 300-kilogram barrels. The barrels are loaded onto a truck and taken to a former salt mine in the Harz Mountains of central Germany. Thus, the energy-saving light bulb ends up in an underground waste depot, where it will remain forever as contaminated waste”…
    http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2012/3/20/environmentalists-trashing-the-environment.html


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    cohenite

    While in Newtown, Sydney, as I am regularly, which is a typical inner city Green stronghold, I occasionally wear t-shirts like:

    Vote Green and freeze and starve in the dark

    or

    Green hate humans

    Given Jennifer’s treatment by Holmes I shall have to prepare a new t-shirt along the lines of:

    Jennifer vs ABC: good vs evil

    I would welcome any suggestions.

    In respect of the MW report what concerned me the most was Holme’s imputation that professor Ridd allegedly said he only gave Jennifer’s paper a favourable peer review as a favour to her; Holmes clearly said this was not proper peer review. That particular aspect of the report is plainly defamatory if Ridd did not say that or was taken out of context.

    In addition Holmes should be made aware of the Steig paper scandal; in 2009 Steig et al wrote a laude paper ‘showing’ the Antarctic was warming; this paper received royal treatment at the abc and fairfax outlets; when O’Donnell and his team showed that Steig’s paper was deeply flawed and wrong there was no follow up by the abc of this rebuttal or the fact that Steig was the dominant negative peer reviewer of the O’Donnell paper, which among other things said a lot about Steig and the peer review system.


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      Truthseeker

      Cohenite, how about these …

      ABC = Absolutley Biased Commentary
      ABC is your tax dollars not working …
      ABC science = Hollywood science


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        cohenite

        Thanks; I’m trying to incorporate ‘Jennifer’ into the expression while keeping it pithy; maybe I’ll just write:

        ABC lies about Jennifer.

        It seems a shame to leave out the words unctuous, snide and hypocritical when thinking about Holmes, the Uriah Heep of the msm.


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    The other quite deceptive part of Marohasy’s McScience is the claim that the 5 million ML of current average river flows are primarily aimed at keeping Lake Alexandrina fresh. When the reality is that this water has always been directed at flowing out the mouth to keep it open and the Coorong’s North Lagoon less than hypersaline.

    And her solution to this annual waste of water is barrage removal that will only deliver a marginal benefit in the next 1 in 50 year drought. The gullible public are being led to believe that her policy will save a million ML a year by replacing fresh water evaporation with tidal sea water evaporation. But she has consistently refused to explain how that can possible be the case if the same 5 million ML is still flowing THROUGH THE LAKE and out the mouth every year.

    She has been tested on these issues on the Just Grounds Blog and Online Opinion and in each case her only response has been unsubstantiated opinion as to my supposed lack of “understanding”. She simply refuses to accept that the tides are different in SA. Sand deposition takes place there during storm events but she persists with the delusion, based on East Coast observations, that storms remove sand and it builds up in calm periods.

    Removing the barrages will produce greater initial storm surge tidal inflows that will then block the Murray mouth and seriously restrict normal tidal interchange. And in the absence of very substantial increases on the existing wasted river flows, at the expense of farmers, turn the Coorong’s North Lagoon hypersaline.

    If you really want to destroy agriculture in the basin just sign up for this snake oil.


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      Bruce of Newcastle

      Well it wouldn’t be hypersaline if the barrage was open, would it?

      Sorry, Ian, I know you and Jennifer are arguing how to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, there’s only so much water to go around, but you would do better by not to make silly statements like that one.

      I have no chips on the table in this fight other than a slight desire for the poor farmers to be treated better than this government and idiots such as the Wentworth Group like to treat them.


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        The statement wasn’t silly, Bruce, only your silly interpretation of it. So I will just repeat the key parts. “In the ABSENCE OF VERY SUBSTANTIAL INCREASES” on existing wasted river flows the Coorong will go hypersaline. So how, exactly, will open barages produce increased tidal inflows THROUGH A CLOSED MURRAY MOUTH?

        And please take a moment to think about it before you make another inane comment.

        You are all having a wonderful time exercising your high dudgeon over Holmes and his excesses, I get that. But kindly get your brains back into gear when it comes to real science with real consequences. The fact that Holmes makes a personal attack on Jennifer does not, in any way, validate her McScience.


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          Bruce of Newcastle

          Lake Macquarie doesn’t have a closed mouth despite low flows from Cockle Creek. That is because the NSW government dredges it.

          And Lake Mac, a short walk from my house, is very pretty despite the evil hand of man on the unnatural outlet. I stand by my previous comment.


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            You are basing that view on your knowledge of East Coast tides which is simply irrelevant in SA. For a start they only have one tide a day and for half of each lunar cycle there is hardly one at all. Only 3 or 4 tides a month ever get to a full metre amplitude (the rest are less than two feet) and when they do they are asymetrical. That is, inflow takes 8 hours and outflow takes 16 hours. That means inflow velocity is twice as fast as the outflow. And as sediment load is determined by the square of the velocity then inflowing tides move four times more sediment than the outflowing tide.

            That is not the case at Lake Macquarie where tides are symetrical, have the same velocity either way, take place twice a day, and are more consistent throughout the cycle. They are chalk and cheese.


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            Bruce of Newcastle

            Ian – You misunderstand my point, which is that human beings are quite adept at engineering and moving stuff like sand. If they want to. If the dynamics are such that sand comes in then design an appropriate breakwater. Or just keep dredging.

            The lakes do not have to be hypersaline and they do not have to be fresh. The can be pseudoesturine if we want them to. Its our choice on cost benefit. What they cannot be is natural because we want to use water for irrigation up stream. If anyone thinks this is bad they belong in the Wentworth Group and not on planet Earth.

            Aside from that I have no views on which is the appropriate state those water bodies should be in. My view is not to incorrectly say it must be one (hypersaline) or the other (fresh) when there is clearly a spectrum of possibilities.


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            Dredging has been going on at the mouth for years, Bruce. They have been spending $millions and the average cost was about $7/M3. So the single storm surge that dumped 46,000m3 in one week a few years back cost them $320,000. And as for your “spectrum of possibilities” I suggest you advise the MDBA Board ASAP because all they can think of to date is trashing local economies all over the basin so they can watch even more water flow out the mouth.


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            Bruce of Newcastle

            I see no breakwaters in the photos. Why? Maybe a double breakwater would save some of those dredging costs.


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            KinkyKeith

            Hi Ian

            I’m not familiar with the location you are discussing but it does seem futile to be constantly dredging in a no win situation where no infrastructure is planned to improve things.

            As mentioned above, Newcastle Harbor is a useful case where all that existed in 1800 was a river, lots of sand and lots of mangrove swamps.

            Through planned use of timber walling the course of the river was adjusted and baffles were used to produce deposits of silt in areas to be built up. Eventually mangroves swamps were isolated from the river by this treatment.

            The effect has been to give good clean flow past the areas which used to attract silt, the harbor now seems to have good hard edges and dredging is not as onerous.

            The point of this is to say that improvements are possible, there are precedents that are useful.

            I’m sure that the Dutch would have a solution to the problem where you are, they are masters of getting water to go where they want it.


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      The other quite deceptive part of Marohasy’s McScience is the claim that the 5 million ML of current average river flows are primarily aimed at keeping Lake Alexandrina fresh. When the reality is that this water has always been directed at flowing out the mouth to keep it open and the Coorong’s North Lagoon less than hypersaline.

      Again, I ask you to back up this claim. Your own literature indicates that this claim is most likely false. That periodically the lakes are naturally sealed and then broken open with a flooding event.

      Where is your data to support the claim that the Murray flow is always strong enough to keep the short term sediment aggregation in the negative?

      I’m waiting.


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        Have you even got further than the executive summary yet, Waffle? You clearly haven’t even looked at the Draft Basin Plan and none of the rest of the submission or you wouldn’t be pursuing such a fatuous line of questioning. And you might like to believe that your last question is some sort of clincher but if you had bothered to get any further into the material you would recognise that I have made no such claim. And you seem to forget that the assessment process in this forum goes both ways and I have no choice but to conclude that my time would be better spent talking to a bucket of lard.

        Make even a rudimentary effort at informing yourself and I will be happy to assist but don’t expect me to participate in your current brand of onanism.


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          LOL, I read the whole thing, as I mentioned to you on the earlier thread. Insulting me does not provide me with the explaination which is not contained in your literature. Let’s focus of the meat and veg of the issue which is the accurate description of the natural state of the lower lakes and Murray River mouth.

          You suggestion of an inlet pipe implies that the mouth is naturally always open. How do you justify this position above the gross assumptions you casually fold into your arguments?

          It would credit you to answer the question on a more technical level rather than making personal jibes.


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            Waffle. Thanks. You have more patience than me!

            And yes, lets consider the natural state of the Lower Lakes and Murray River mouth particularly given this new $10 billion government water plan is meant to be about the environment.

            Ian. Please desist from misquoting me. I’ve never suggested that the water flowing over Lock 1 was primarily about keeping Lake Alexandrina fresh. I’ve simply tried to put the amount of water flowing over Lock 1 in some context. Indeed, I couldn’t believe there was no mention of how much water flows over Lock 1 in any of the planning documents. So I got the daily flow data and did some calculations myself.

            The point I make is:

            “Average flow over Lock 1 from 1968 to 2010 was 5,920 GL.12 Putting this in some perspective, Port Jackson, that includes Sydney Harbour, holds about 560 GL at high tide: so enough water has been flowing into Lake Alexandrina on average each year for the last 42 years to fill about eleven Sydney Harbours each and every year. In 1974, despite river regulation 31,879 GL flowed over Lock 1: that’s 57 Sydney Harbours full of freshwater.”

            And yet the impression is that these lakes are starved of river flow. They receive a tremendous volume of freshwater, but not enough to keep them full of freshwater during drought.

            During drought they should be allowed to fill with seawater at no cost to the Australian tax payer.


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            Waffle, the natural state of the mouth was one that was generally open but prone to temporary and partial closure after storm surges especially in drought years. The duration of temporary closure or restricted cross section was controlled by annual flows well in excess of 18 million megalitres. And the Coorong was kept in a much lower salinity condition by flows from what is now the SE Drainage area. Both of those sources have since been substantially reduced.

            I do not imply that the mouth is naturally open and at no stage do I say anything of a sort. But the overwhelming aim of the MDBA and, rightly or wrongly, the expectation of Australian public is to use whatever water is needed to keep the mouth open in 9 years in 10. The purpose of the pipes under the dunes is to get this whole issue of mouth closure off my screen and get the continuing threats to the lives of farmers all over the basin right out of their lives.

            By producing an artificial equilibrium inside the mouth in a way that reduces sand inflow and increases sand removal there will be minimal requirement for any of the current 5 million average annual outflow nor for any of the additional 2.75 million of buy-backs. That five million ML would then be available for both economic and ecological uses elswhere in the basin but it would also require additional storage capacity to manage it optimally.

            The problem with this AEF stunt is that the actual amount of fresh water saved will be minimal. Jennifer has already admitted that most of the river flows take place during the time of the year (spring/summer) when evaporation is higher. So most evaporation will always be from those fresh water flows. The lesser flows take place in autumn/winter and this is when tidal intrusions (assuming the mouth is still open) will penetrate further into the lake. So sea water will only partially replace fresh water when evaporation is minimal.

            Jennifer and the AEF have failed to properly quantify the benefit they claim will come from saved fresh water evaporation. This vague “lets restore nature” line obviously has traction amongst the ill-informed. I know this for a fact because I was once one of them.

            But the key numbers are that 5 million ML of lost outflow is available to be saved and diverted to better uses in 9 out of 10 years (thats 45 million ML each decade). But Jennifer and the AEF want to assign maximum priority to what is nothing more than a symbolic act that may or may not save three fifths of one eighth of sweet FA in 1 year in 10. And that kind of poorly conceived stunt merely undermines the credibility of everyone else who is trying to get some meaningful, sensible outcomes for the basin.

            And by the way, Jennifer, in drought the lake level simply drops to AHD, at no cost to the taxpayer anyway. No farmer lost any water to Lake Alexandrina in the last drought because there wasn’t any for anyone.


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    pat

    the CAGW apologist ABC is at it again, with not a hint that those wind turbines might be playing a role. it’s those “four or five very hot days” didn’t u know!

    21 March: ABC: Heat blamed for high SA electricity prices
    “We have a very high demand in South Australia during the summer period when we have that extreme summer temperature, when we have those four or five very hot days,” he (Vince Duffy, Department of Energy) said.
    “That requires a lot of capacity in the market to support that air-conditioning load that comes on in those hot periods.”
    The Energy Users Association of Australia has released a report comparing household electricity prices in 92 countries, states and provinces.
    It puts South Australia third in the world behind Denmark and Germany for high costs…
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-21/high-electricity-prices-south-australia/3903326?section=business

    see comments on Jo’s previous thread from TonyfromOz and others commenting on South Australia’s claim that 26% of its electricity is being generated(?) by wind.

    over to u, TonyfromOz…


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    Titas Aduxas

    To Moderators,
    I love Jo, i really do but for Crissakes stop sending me all this stuff, It reminds of the 12 Days of Christmas song!!
    My Email Address is used for my business and several people have to use it.
    Thanks.


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      KinkyKeith

      Hey Titus,

      This is planet Earth and Christmas is 9 months away.

      Is there some meaning to the comment?

      :)


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      memoryvault

      .
      Titus,

      That is not the doing of Jo or the moderators. At some point you have clicked on the box “notify me of follow-up comments via email”, and that is exactly what the system is doing.

      At the very bottom of any one of your “12 days of Christmas” emails you will find a link that will allow you turn it off.


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      brc

      And seriously – get your own email address! It’s not a PO Box, it’s a personalised messaging protocol for person-specific communications.

      Email accounts are ubiquitous and free.


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      Titas, I think there is a way to turn off your “subscription”. Yes the emails from threads can take over your intray. I looked, but don’t seem to be able to do it for you. See the “Leave a Reply” Box (where you write comments?) Under the “post Comment” button is a message that ought to link to “manage subscriptions”. Try that and see if you get the option to “unsubscribe”. I hope so, though I’m not sure. When I do that there are only 76 posts, yet there are over 700 posts on the site. Please let me know how you go.
      Jo


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      Streetcred

      LOL … Titas … Tight as … another mailbox might be in order ?
      Forgive me.


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    Kevin Moore

    Question time in Parliament today -

    PM Gillard and Minister Burke said in answer to questions that river flow is necessary for Adelaides’water supply –

    That half of Adelaides drinking water comes from the Murray Darling Basin -

    That the aim is to have the river mouth open 9 years out of 10 -

    That the environment can’t fix itself and needs a national plan.

    It’s all illogical to me.


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    A telling comment on the MW site from – allegedly, a person who worked with or at CSIRO in response to “barney”:

    Barney :

    20 Mar 2012 2:43:11pm

    Media Watch is right on the ball, as usual. When you see a pres release put out by a so-called environmental group who claim that the CSIRO produces “junk science”, the warning lights should come on. Especially when there is no explanation of why the “junk science” is junk.
    A little probing by Media Watch found that the so-called environmental group is funded by the cotton industry and irrigation industry. This should turn on more warning lights – is this organisation really an environmental group or just a mis-named front for the irrigation industry?
    The question of peer review was suitably addressed by Media Watch. I have published a number of scientific papers. Normally we talk about peer review in reputable journals and there is often a preliminary review done by your own organisation before the paper is submitted. In this case all she had was an in-house review for a media release. That is not the same thing.

    Mike Elliott :

    20 Mar 2012 9:25:29pm

    Unfortunately Barney I was part of the CSIRO’s Energymark program. I formally asked the experts in that program some sound and very pointed scientific questions about the Climate educational material they disseminated to all involved. Answers to these questions were to be distributed to all across the state in the program. Trouble is my questions were truncated, answered by non-experts and avoided completely when resubmitted for expert answers as promised. You guessed it my reverence for the CSIRO disappeared overnight. They chose to answer in part only, poorly and with propaganda and emotion. My view is that they have lost their independence. I’ll vote for any politician who has a platform of returning scientific independence to the CSIRO. If you think Australia is facing economic challenges just wait until the abuse of our premier science organisation and dare I say education system filters down to the bottom – not a clever country Australia!


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      Rohan

      I worked at CSIRO one summer as an undergrad in the early 90s. The thing that struck me at the time was how institutionalised most of the staff were. Flexi time, relaxed no pressure environment. Very public service. Being a country kid watching and being involved in my parents small business it was a real eye opener.

      I currently work for one of the few CSIRO scientists who have succesfully made it in their own right with a start up business no less. I’ve had many interesting discussions about it. He does refer it to being a bit of a “boys club” and they do tend to get involved in groupthink. That’s not to say that the research being conducted was or is all bad, its not.

      I feel that there’s another key factor in that many of the divisions have been closed or consolodated with staff shed. Morale within the organisation, or at least with those parts we associated with is at rock bottom. It’s hardly surprising then that those remaining have latched on to an apparent gravy train that the new green religion has afforded, even if that means compromising good scientific principals.


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    pat

    no warlock hunt for Gleick!

    Uni of Oxford: Blavatnik School of Govt: Peter Gleick – Oxford Amnesty Lectures
    24 April 2012 – 5:30pm
    DR PETER H. GLEICK is president of the Pacific Institute, a member of the United States National Academy of Sciences, a MacArthur Fellow, and an early contributor to the international discussion around the human right to water. Among his other honors, in 2011 he was awarded the Ven Te Chow Prize from the International Water Resources Association and the first United States Water Prize. ..ETC
    http://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/events/peter-gleick-oxford-amnesty-lectures


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    pat

    21 March: Indian Express: Govt asks airlines to fly out of EU carbon scheme
    The government has asked all domestic airlines not to be part of the European Union’s Emission Trading Scheme (ETS), a decision that the inter-governmental body imposed on airlines entering European airspace.
    “We have asked airlines not to be part of ETS and any correspondence on this will be routed through the civil aviation ministry,” an official with the direct knowledge of the matter told The Indian Express…
    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/govt-asks-airlines-to-fly-out-of-eu-carbon-scheme/926195/

    20 March: Reuters: 20 March: Reuters: COLUMN-Airline CO2 friction is hint of new climate politics-Gerard Wynn
    The broader failure of U.N. climate talks only makes such unilateral action more likely, if other countries – possibly including Australia, Japan, South Korea and Mexico – join the European Union in choosing to take firmer carbon curbs than those agreed internationally (if any).
    In that sense, the airline dispute is an experiment in an alternative climate politics…
    ***The EU says it must include all emissions on a flight because it’s impractical to measure those only from the moment a plane enters European airspace. And that would also dilute the environmental purpose of the scheme since a large part of emissions are on take-of.
    The bloc of countries most wedded to a multilateral approach at the United Nations, the European Union, now feels compelled to use unilateral action.
    The present spat could be a sign of things to come in climate politics, where progressive countries unite from the bottom up, at least until an over-arching treaty comes into force at the end of the decade.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/20/climate-aviation-idUSL6E8EK26E20120320

    Reuters: About Gerard Wynn:
    “Based in London, for four years I have helped coordinate Reuters global coverage of green business and environmental markets. I focus on policies and investment related to renewable energy, carbon markets, energy efficiency and emerging clean technologies including electric cars. I also cover UN climate negotiations, biodiversity, land use and climate science. Previously I covered distressed M&A and credit markets on the corporate finance desk.”

    what a CAGW shill.


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    pat

    re the faux outrage over Clive Palmer’s comments:

    when will the ABC/Greens etc understand they are being gamed?

    Pew, Soros, Rockefeller, Energy Foundation, Chatham House, EastWest Institute, etc. interviewed for this report:

    1 July 2010: Climate Change and National Security: A field map and analysis of funding opportunities
    Prepared on behalf of the Planet Heritage Foundation
    by Christine Sherry
    (page 57)If these precautions are not taken, China will continue to build the estimated 600 new coal fired power plants by 2030, which will add about 60 gigatonnes of carbon to the atmosphere
    (about a third of the world total amount added since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution)…
    http://www.sherryconsulting.com/Final%20Climate%20Report.pdf

    EastWest Institute: Cindy Mercer
    With EWI board member Addison Fischer, Ms. Mercer co-founded Planet Heritage Foundation (PHF), which focuses on building and supporting highly leveraged collaborations in its areas of focus; energy security, marine and biodiversity conservation…
    (righthand column) Testimonial: George H.W. Bush
    Former President of the United States
    “Few other institutions can approach the EWI track record of practical accomplishment in helping to change the world for the better.”
    http://www.ewi.info/cindy-mercer

    what a laugh and what a scam.


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    pat

    for Mr. Palmer:

    2003: MIT: The Future of Nuclear Power
    An interdisciplinary MIT faculty group decided to study the future of nuclear power because of a belief that this technology is an important option for the United States and the world to meet future energy needs without emitting carbon dioxide and other atmospheric pollutants. Other options include increased efficiency, renewables, and carbon sequestration, and all may be needed for a successful greenhouse gas management strategy…
    The report maintains that “The nuclear option should be retained precisely because it is an important carbon-free source of power.”
    “Fossil fuel-based electricity is projected to account for more than 40% of global greenhouse gas emissions by 2020,” said Deutch. “In the U.S. 90% of the carbon emissions from electricity generation come from coal-fired generation, even though this accounts for only 52% of the electricity produced. Taking nuclear power off the table as a viable alternative will prevent the global community from achieving long-term gains in the control of carbon dioxide emissions.”…
    The members of the study team are: John Deutch (co-chair), Ernest Moniz (co-chair), S. Ansolabehere, Michael Driscoll, Paul Gray, John Holdren (Harvard), Paul Joskow, Richard Lester, and Neil Todreas.
    Members of the Advisory Committee included: former U.S. Congressman Phil Sharp (chair), former White House Chiefs of Staff John Podesta and John Sununu, John Ahearne, Tom Cochran, Linn Draper, Ted Greenwood, John MacWilliams, Jessica Mathews, Zack Pate, and Mason Willrich.
    This study was supported by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation and by MIT’s Office of the Provost and Laboratory for Energy and the Environment.
    (LINKS TO PDF OF THE REPORT, PLUS 2009 UPDATE)
    http://web.mit.edu/nuclearpower/

    Wikipedia: John M. Deutch
    He was the United States Deputy Secretary of Defense from 1994 to 1995 and Director of Central Intelligence (DCI) from May 10, 1995 until December 15, 1996. He is presently an Institute Professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and serves on the Board of Directors of Citigroup, Cummins, Raytheon, and Schlumberger Ltd. Deutch is also a member of the Trilateral Commission…
    In 1995, President Bill Clinton appointed him Director of Central Intelligence (cabinet rank in the Clinton administration)…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_M._Deutch

    Wikipedia: John Holdren
    John Paul Holdren is the senior advisor to President Barack Obama on science and technology issues through his roles as Assistant to the President for Science and Technology…
    Holdren was previously the Teresa and John Heinz Professor of Environmental Policy at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, director of the Science, Technology, and Public Policy Program at the School’s Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, and Director of the Woods Hole Research Center…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Holdren


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    Geoff Sherrington

    memoryvault, Yours is better than mine. In the mid 1980s, the Feds were preparing to proclaim World Heritage Stage 2 over a promising new mine development we had going near Kakadu. There was a 4 Corners program made about it. I kept telling K O’B that he was filming in places of no relevance, but they continued on and told the puiblic a story that was not so accurate.
    Bob Hawke was PM and so he wanted to visit this site, so I led him and a convoy of Land Cruisers a mile long to where the filming was done, where he proceeded almost tearfully to promise that never would he allow mining in a place of such cultural and natural beauty. Part way through this filming with several national TV crews, a renegade reporter appeared next to him dressed as if ne was going boating on the river at Oxford – boater, cravat, striped jacket, white trousers … “Bob”, he whispered, loud enough for the microphones, “You’ve been set up. The real mine site is 5 miles from here.” It was sweet to see the lame leading the blind. The PM went a bit turkey red on national TV news that night.

    Now, all these years later, we have a Treasurer who wants to tax people with rich mines. What Wayne does not mention is his youth, when he, like anyone else, could have got some gear and a licence and gone looking for a mine. He had every chance to make good as Clive Palmer or Lang Hancock did. He has no claim to steal from their success.

    For that matter, Johnathon Holmes could have grabbed a shovel too and gone to find his fortune. Ah, the politics of envy.


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    John from CA

    Hi Jo,
    Just left a comment for Judith Curry and suggest the same tact for your consideration.

    Hearts and Minds are “won” with inspiration and we all have been led into a semantic Climate trap by fools.

    The issue isn’t about what’s wrong with the Science, its actually about the small portion of the science that’s correct. The aspects of the science we all need to support are far more insightful and mutually beneficial than the diatribe over Policies.

    Consider requesting a list of all the positive aspects of Climate Research from commenters. The fundamental need to define the things we all share commonly (globally) far out weight the foolishness and sets a positive new tone. It will also separate the Science from the UN Policy decisions that retard mutual understanding and respect.

    Best,
    John from CA


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    John Brookes

    Media watch are heroes!


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      KeithH

      “Media watch are zeros!”

      There John. Fixed it for you!


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        Truthseeker

        KeithH,

        Technically its “‘Media Watch’ are zeroes!”.

        There, fixed it for you.


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          KeithH

          Thanks truthseeker, but I’ll stick with my memories of the old World War 2 Japanese fighter-planes, Zeros! Like Media Watch they were pretty sneaky and deadly, especially against the old “kites” our boys had to try and fly against them before they got Kittyhawks and Spitfires!


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            KeithH

            Almost forgot that wonderful old stable gun platform the Hurricane. A Royal Air Force Officer guide at the RAF Museum at Henden in England told me that it actually had more kills than the Sptfire during the Battle of Britain according to British records, but the German Luftwaffe records under-reported Hurricane kills. His theory was the German pilots didn’t like to report that they or their comrades had fallen to the older slower Hurricane so reported the deed had been done by a Spitfire!
            Apologies for getting almost totally off course and wildly O/T!


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      memoryvault

      .
      THE JOHN BROOKES HALL OF FAME

      Media Watch – Unbiased Investigative Journalism

      Peter Gleick – Outstanding contributions to ethics in science

      Michael Mann – TRICKiest manipulation of statistics in a decade

      Jame Hansen – All-time world record for most manipulations of a data-set – ever

      Phil Jones – Gold medal for sharing of scientific data and meeting FOI requests

      Keith Briffa – The amazing one-tree circus award

      Tim Flannery – The Clairvoyancy Award for predicting future climate events

      David Karoly and Will Steffen (shared) – Service to the Australian Public above and beyond the call of duty

      JuLIAR Gillard – Lifetime Award for honesty in Australian Politics

      .
      Contributions welcome


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    Bob Malloy

    Off Topic.
    I have just read an article at Quadrant online, by Michael Galak , a former soviet, in which he concludes with an appeal to our elected masters,

    The pleasure of the rainfall, the music of the rainwater pipes, an air full of ozone after the storm, the rivulets of the rain water on the beach sand – it is enough to make a grown man cry from happiness. Do not take it away from us, like the Soviets tried in the past. They tried but failed. Miserably. Mind you, and so will you. I saw it myself. I was there. Sooner or later you will fail, like all good Marxists do. Why don’t you enjoy the rain instead? All together now – Raindrops keep falling on my head…

    Earlier in the piece he recounts

    listening to Burt Bacharach’s “Raindrops Keep Falling on My Head”. I kept replaying it, glorying in its kindness, its gentleness and seemingly effortless cadence of laughter, optimism and elegance. Oh, how this music differed from the Soviet “entertainment”, which inevitably demanded sacrifices, exhorting listeners to of hate towards “class enemies”.

    Is it just me, or does my bolded selection sound awfully like Swann and Gillard’s attack on our miners and are the left trying to eradicate “kindness, its gentleness and seemingly effortless cadence of laughter, optimism and elegance” from our lives.


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      Winston

      are the left trying to eradicate “kindness, its gentleness and seemingly effortless cadence of laughter, optimism and elegance” from our lives.

      That’s the irony, the so-called “hate media” is really them. They are filled to the brim with venom and envy, it’s hardwired into their DNA- cold, remorseless and callous. They dress their hatred up in the cloak of social conscience, but really it’s just narcissistic rage and jealousy wearing a halo of respectability.


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        Kevin Moore

        A shyster crossed with a psycopath?


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          memoryvault

          .

          Shysterpath: noun: technical term for an Australian politician.


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          memoryvault

          .
          Psycoshyster: noun: technical term for an Australian journalist.


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          memoryvault

          .
          Pathological psycoshystering shysterpathamatician: noun: technical term for an Australian journalist who enters politics.

          And vice versa.


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          memoryvault

          .
          Shysterpathetic Psychoshysterologist: noun: trade union lawyer who never actually really worked a day in a “real” job who nonetheless enters politics to “save the working class”.

          Abbreviation: safeseatologist.


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            Kevin Moore

            From Free Dictionary – a bit of trivia.

            shy·ster (shstr)
            n. Slang
            An unethical, unscrupulous practitioner, especially of law.

            [Probably alteration of German Scheisser, son of a bitch, bastard, from scheissen, to defecate, from Middle High German schzen, from Old High German skzzan; see skei- in Indo-European roots.

            Scheissen Hausen = Dunny from Gaelic dun – a small fort on the side of a hill.


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            memoryvault

            .
            Okay, since Jo isn’t going to give us a new article, I’ll play:

            CAGW “theory” could be best described as a Scheissen Hausen, overcrowded with Shysterpaths, Psycoshysters, Pathological psycoshystering shysterpathamaticians, and Shysterpathetic Psychoshysterologists, all lost in a cloud of their own smugness, and smelling each other’s farts**.

            .
            **Reference Southpark for further details on smugness clouds and fart-smelling.


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      lmwd

      Thanks Bob. I enjoyed reading that!

      Another good passage from the essay

      The worldwide ideological bankruptcy of Marxist thought left its proponents with a clear dilemma—be dropped into the dustbin of history (the fate these Merlins of our society have foretold to everyone else, never envisaging it for themselves) or change. No big surprises, they decided to change. These old class warriors flocked towards clean, green and renewable. Now they are squirming under the green banner of Jihad—sorry, I meant to say nature protection, which is, in reality, the good old pursuit of political power by all possible means adjusted to the reality of the political battlefield.

      I always find it interesting to hear the perspectives of those who have lived under Communism and its sister Radical Socialism. They are often more sensitive to, and therefore recognise the dynamics being played out because they have seen it before and they know the consequences…

      Another line from the Bacharach song is “because I’m free, nothing’s worrying me….”


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    Graham

    Nice to know that the right message is going international. Anthony Watts attended a California Assembly Committee and noted that

    Copies of Jo nova’s skeptic handbook being passed out to some committee members


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    Dave

    Media Watch should investigate the following companies on the ASX (all geothermal) instead of trying to do a hatchet job on Jennifer Marohasy! But this might involve journalism!

    Need to find their major shareholders, source of money, grants awarded etc

    Also why they generally perform poorly, and they’re all getting a fair chop of Government handouts. Mr. Flimflam (Who won the Clairvoyancy Award for predicting future climate events) is in this lot also. Refer MW @ 44.2

    WAS Wasabi Energy $70 m Geothermal
    GDY Geodynamics $69 m Geothermal
    EHR Earth Heat Resources $23 m Geothermal
    PTR Petratherm $12 m Geothermal
    GRK Green Rock $10 m Geothermal
    HRL Hot Rock $7 m Geothermal
    PAX Panax Geothermal $6 m Geothermal
    GER Greenearth Energy $6 m Geothermal
    KEN KUTh Energy $3 m Geothermal
    TEY Torrens Energy $3 m Geothermal
    GHT Geothermal Resources $3 m Geothermal

    (The $ value is the market cap)
    (I have done some research on the above companies and it’s not pretty)

    The other one is the sole wave renewable ASX company
    CWE Carnegie Wave Energy $68 m Wave

    What’s it doing on the ASX?

    And when they’ve finished investigating this bunch – then start on solar!


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    Dave

    Ha, great to see some of you are still watching Media Watch. By far one of the best shows on Australian TV, carefully produced and very quick to admit if any of it’s facts are found to be in dispute.

    I do pop on here very occasionally as a study into how fear can affect behaviour. You are certainly all scared, as I am about climate change. The difference is you are seeking to numb that fear through insistence that there is another side to this and in fact the science into climate change is merely “junk”.

    As the years go on this claim that there is opposing science to climate change gets weaker and weaker, rather than take an honest look at yourself and your position you all start to talk of “alarmist lobby groups” who are determined to keep people like you and Jo N out of the debate. Ah, it would be amusing if it wasn’t so detrimental to our progress.

    As a concerned ordinary Australian who is now a father, can I simply ask that you contemplate this:

    If you are right – then my daughters generation will simply shrug their shoulders at some unneccesary funds that went into cleaner forms of energy, quieter (if slower) cars, and houses that orientated themselves and insulated themselves more cleverly.

    If you are wrong, which the vast majority of scientists agree on, and human activity is pushing us toward dangerous levels of climate change, then my daughters generation will be greatly compromised and very likely in conflict.

    For my daughters sake and her generation, please consider the repercussions of the position of inaction you are all advancing in this highly one sided blog.


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      memoryvault

      .
      Please tell me you forgot the /sarc off conditioner.

      Otherwise your diatribe doesn’t even fit the current version of the “end of the world” as promoted by your CAGW cultist religion.

      [I found Daves comment sitting in a holding pattern. Thought I'd release it as an example of the boofheads we're up against and also for all to see how easy it has been for the activist advocates to get their agendas up and running. There are lots of Daves out there which causes me to fear for our species. Mod oggi]


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      Dave, from what you have babbled on here, your daughter has far more to fear from her genetic inheritance than she will ever fear from climate variation that is entirely within the historical range of variation.


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        memoryvault

        .
        Historically, doomed species have invariably ended up consuming their young, one way or another.
        Perhaps Dave’s daughter should consider adoption as a survival technique.


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      As a concerned ordinary Australian who is now a father, can I simply ask that you contemplate this:

      As a concerned ordinary Australian, I have this one thing to say to Daves daughter. “Remember, you can choose your friends, but you can’t choose your family. My condolences, you poor child.”


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      Kevin Moore

      I heard Bob Carr in his maiden speech uttering complete nonsense, saying that global warming is caused by chemical change in the atmosphere. That oceans absorb 40% of all human produced CO2 and therefore the oceans are becoming more acidic.

      Bob Carr it seems would like to think of himself as a modern day Socrates but so far he has failed the litmus test and by his ignorance is perpetuating needless fear.


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      Catamon

      Well said Dave. Particularly interesting from the point of view of “how fear can affect behaviour” POV are the replies. You put a position firmly, clearly and (by this blog’s standards) politely.

      Responses?

      your CAGW cultist religion.

      Arrogant Dismissive

      as an example of the boofheads we’re up against

      Abusive Dismissive

      your daughter has far more to fear from her genetic inheritance

      Abusive

      Dave’s daughter should consider adoption as a survival technique.

      Just Nasty.

      My condolences, you poor child

      Disparaging.

      And one of those was from a Mod on this blog??

      Says a lot, none of it good, about some of the crew that hang here regularly who are oft times quick to jump on others even mildly and in good fun name calling.

      Yes BaaBoy, looking at yah! :)


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        Yes BaaBoy, looking at yah!

        Yes Cat, I can visualise you lookin’ at me. I’ve got a few cows on my paddocks that look around just like you’re lookin’ at me.

        You reckon “Well said Dave” obviously you don’t get it either.

        Dave reckons..

        If you are right – then my daughters generation will simply shrug their shoulders at some unneccesary funds that went into cleaner forms of energy

        and

        For my daughters sake and her generation, please consider the repercussions of the position of inaction you are all advancing

        What neither of you seem capable of understanding, hence Dave proves himself to be inadequate to prepare his daughter for adult life, is that the AGW scaremongerring isn’t just about money.
        When Daves and Catamons the world over fall for lies and manipulations, there is no end to further lies and manipulations. The society that Daves daughter will be a part of will be doomed as slaves to the liars and manipulators.

        The AGW lies have lasted for over a generation now. When the Daves and Catamons are so easily conned, con men are encouraged to repeat their success. Today it’s about climate, tomorrow it may be about wars. Who knows, the liars might even gain the courage to con people about a country possessing weapons of mass destruction and send thousands of sons and daughters to their early undeserved death…oh! wait.

        Instead of pleading with us for his daughters future, Dave should be encouraging those who are sceptical to continue to question the orthodoxy. AFTERALL, IF THE SCIENCE IS SOUND, IT WILL STAND UP TO SCRUTINY BY A BUNCH OF BLOGGERS AND RETIRED SCIENTISTS WON’T IT? And Dave won’t have anything to fear about his daughters future.

        On the other hand, if he is going to teach his daughter to roll over and accept everything told her because it comes from ‘authority’, then he is condemning her to be a slave to authority. RIDICULE OR ABUSE MAY NOT BE ENOUGH, his daughters future is at stake.


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        Mark D.

        Catamon, it’s called “tough love“.

        I imagine you have more experience with “enabling“.


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      Mark D.

      Dave says:

      As a concerned ordinary Australian who is now a father, can I simply ask that you contemplate this:

      Dave Dave Dave, with all the world going to hell because of population crisis, why did you dare to add another human? Pretty friken selfish of you don’t you think? Did you count up all the co2 the little bambino adds to the equation? Hypocrisy.

      By the way, congratulations on the birth, I hope mother and daughter are healthy.


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    Numberwang

    “Media Watch”: sounds like something the Finkelstein commission thought up.


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      Kevin Moore

      I find the stein ending names to be interesting. For instance Einstein means one stone.

      Finklestein is a Yiddish variation of the German Karbunkelstein, a semi precious stone.


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    Kevin Moore

    The Murray-Darling Basin covers 14% of Australias’ land mass.

    How much of Australias’ land mass does the Labor/Green coallition Murray-Darling Basin Plan cover?


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      Kevin Moore

      I’ll answer this question myself -

      Environmental works within an area that is listed as a site of significance.
      The area covered by this project includes the entire length of the SA River Murray Prescribed Watercourse. Resources are to be applied to the area below Lock 1 to the Lower Lakes and from Lock 1 to the Victorian Border.

      See KM @ 53


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    Dave

    Wow, you guys struggle to hear opposing view points don’t you.
    I’ll let you get on with your blog in private.

    Thanks for the tips on parenthood too. From the language and disrespectful tone used in recent comments I’m reminded this is not a blog worth sharing ideas with.


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      Howie

      Dave, You weren’t treated that badly here IMHO. Not nearly as badly as I have been treated on alarmist blogs. Stop in again sometime. Meanwhile you might want to freshen up on some of the issues, such as correlation and causation, hiding and/or manipulation of data, predictive ability of computer models, CO2 as a necessary component of life (plants), etc.


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      Streetcred

      Dave, you have to have ideas worth sharing. Let’s face it, you are short on merit and long in emotion.

      For your daughter’s sake consider the poverty that she will live in if the hysterical CAGW economic measures come to pass.

      Already the $BILLIONS$ and actions wasted on this theological rubbish have cost countless millions of lives of the World’s under privileged as well as ‘stolen’ funding from many far more worthwhile research projects in medicine, engineering, and the applied sciences.

      THIS should weigh more heavily on your mind.


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      Wow, you guys struggle to hear opposing view points don’t you.
      I’ll let you get on with your blog in private.

      We have no trouble hearing opposing or any other views. ( observe the debate between sceptics with opposing views at the Dr Evans thread) (or the discussion about the Murray mouth among sceptics at this thread)

      See that? no probs at all about opposing views. What we have a problem with is dogma regurgitated by mindless, unthinking lemmings like you whos appeal to authority makes us sick to our stomach.

      You don’t wish to face the heat in the kitchen? Good riddance, don’t let the door hit your sorry a$$ on the way out.

      p.s. My parenting advice to you was genuine, take a few minutes to digest it. Don’t worry, you won’t wake up with scurvy in the morning by exposing yourself to some brutal home truths.
      Congrats on becoming a dad, lets hope you teach her to be open minded and sceptical ABOUT EVERYTHING that comes from authority, obviously something your old man didn’t teach you.


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    Cookster

    Er, why is it with these people that funding from government is never to be questioned but funding from non government sources is evil? It all comes back to these people feeling threatened by free markets. That the ABC, a government funded organisation living in it’s own bubble should behave this way is no surprise. In Jennifer’s case its another example of ‘playing the (wo)man not the ball’.


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    Kevin Moore

    Pushing and shoving.

    http://www.iclei.org/index.php?id=2384
    Water Campaign™
    The Water Campaign™ is an international freshwater management program that builds the capacity of local government to reduce water consumption and improve local water quality.

    The variability of water supply across Australia makes it critical for Local Governments to properly manage this precious resource. Whether through direct water conservation across council’s facilities or effective water efficiency across Public open space, the ICLEI Water Campaign provides direct assistance to identify, manage and report on the management and Local governments interaction through the total water cycle.

    To access Milestone Resources and Case Studies, participating councils must first log in.

    The Exchange domain ceased to operate on 31 December 2011. Enquiries: Elisabeth Sturrock – tel: (08) 9364 0635.

    What’s New?
    Partnership approach endorsed as Innovative Leadership in Total Water Management

    Congratulations to all the staff of the Water Campaign, past and present, for their involvement in the Western Australian Water Wise Council Program, which took out the WA State AWA Program Innovation Award. This award recognises significant and innovative environment or sustainability programs within the water industry.

    The Waterwise Council Program is unique to WA, in that it is a Partnership between the Water Corporation, The Department of Water and ICLEI Oceania’s Water Campaign. Established in 2009, the Water Wise Council Program builds cooperative working relationships with local governments to improve water use efficiency, across all their operations, indoor and out, scheme and bore water usage.

    To achieve Waterwise status, councils must establish plans of action towards defined targets, implement water efficiency projects and report on progress. Forty-one councils are now participating in the program with 14 fully endorsed Waterwise Councils having collectively saved an estimated 11 gigalitres of water.

    The WA Water Wise Council Team. Caroline Hills (DoW), Greg Hales (ICLEI Oceania), Adele Gismondi, Jesse Cochrane, Amy Wright (Water Corporation) and Aaron Compton (DoW). Lis Sturrock (absent)

    SEEKING IDEAS FOR ENVIRONMENTAL WORKS AND MEASURES TO IMPROVE RIVER HEALTH

    The South Australian Murray-Darling Basin Natural Resources Management (SA MDB NRM) Board, in partnership with the Department for Water, is seeking community ideas for environmental works and measures which will improve the health of our river systems and also use water more efficiently.

    This call for Expressions of Interest (EOI) provides an opportunity for the local community to provide ideas and suggestions to the Australian and State Government about environmental activities for local wetlands and floodplains.

    This initiative is one of the ways in which local communities (localism) can be involved in implementing the Basin Plan.

    Innovative community ideas around environmental works on wetlands and floodplains will be considered. The types of works the EOI can include are:

    Removal of fish and flow barriers to provide greater connectivity between the river, wetlands and floodplains (excluding dredging of inlets)
    Installation or operation of infrastructure and works that will provide better delivery of environmental water and improve the river, wetlands and floodplains
    Works that will improve habitat for frogs, birds, trees and fish
    Works that improve the health of the river, wetlands and floodplains
    Environmental works within an area that is listed as a site of significance.
    The area covered by this project includes the entire length of the SA River Murray Prescribed Watercourse. Resources are to be applied to the area below Lock 1 to the Lower Lakes and from Lock 1 to the Victorian Border.

    EOI forms are available on the SA MDB NRM Board website http://www.samdbnrm.sa.gov.au.

    INPUT SOUGHT ON WATER SENSITIVE URBAN DESIGN PLANS

    The South Australian, Water for Good program continues to lead the way in water management, with community feedback invited on a new approach to urban design. A consultation statement has been prepared that aims to encourage water sensitive urban design across the State and suggests targets for water conservation, stormwater management and environmental water quality. Feedback on the targets, based on research carried out by the Goyder Institute for Water Research, will be used to develop a water sensitive urban design policy for South Australia. Further information on proposals for water sensitive urban design and how to provide feedback is available at http://www.waterforgood.sa.gov.au (Home, Consultation, Latest consultation). Submissions close on 2 March 2012.

    Moonee Valley City Council wins Victorian Water award
    ICLEI Oceania congratulates Moonee Valley City Council for winning a Victorian award for excellent management of water assets. Council won the Stormwater Victoria’s Asset Management Award for its Integrated Water Asset Management Program.

    ICLEI, UNESCO-IHE and IWA have joined forces to publish a handbook on adapting urban water systems to climate change, aimed at decision makers within local governments and utilities. Author: ICLEI, UNESCO-IHE and IWA, 2011. Adapting urban water systems to climate change – A handbook for decision makers at the local level. This document includes a case study of the City of Melbourne.
    Water Campaign™ in 2012: There are a number of ways for councils to be involved in the program in 2012:

    Become a Water Campaign™ participant and purchase a support package for the specific milestone you would like to achieve.
    If your council is an existing participant in a non-funded area – purchase a support package for the specific milestone you would like to achieve.
    If your council is in a funded area (parts of WA and metro Vic) you may be eligible to join and participate in the program without purchasing a milestone support package.
    For further information email Greg Hales, Water Campaign Australia Manager, or ph: +61 8 9364 0643.

    Download more information on the Water Campaign™ in 2012/13.

    New participants: There are now 126 Australian councils who have participated in the Water Campaign™. We would like to welcome our newest participants: Lake Macquarie City Council, Shire of Dardanup, City of Albany and the City of Greater Geraldton.
    Waterwise Council Training (WA): Waterwise Garden and Irrigation ~ recommended for grounds keepers and parks, maintenance, customer service & administration staff and Waterwise Water Auditing ~ recommended for building maintenance staff and administrators in this area, is now available online for participants of the Waterwise Council program. For information, email the Water Corporation or phone 08 9420 2130 and you will be provided with instructions to access the training online.
    Waterwise Council Criteria ~ Criteria for councils to achieve Waterwise endorsement and to retain endorsement.
    ICLEI Oceania congratulates the Waterwise Councils endorsed.

    Waterwise Community Toolkit: The Department of Water has developed a Waterwise Community Toolkit designed to provide land developers, local governments and householders with information on water-use efficiency, water conservation and non-drinking water sources in urban developments and in the community. For enquiries relating to the toolkit email recycling@water.wa.gov.au
    Local Government water management programs in WA: Many local governments have been or will be approached to participate in a number of water management initiatives in Western Australia at the moment namely: Water Conservation Plans, Better Urban Water Management Planning and Stormwater Capacity Building (Department of Water) and the Waterwise Councils Program (Department of Water and the Water Corporation). To assist Water Campaign participants better integrate these programs in their council, a short explanation of their relationship to the Water Campaign has been prepared.


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    Kevin Moore

    http://www.samdbnrm.sa.gov.au.
    Strengthening Basin Communities
    Eleven South Australian Murray-Darling Basin (SA MDB) Councils have partnered with the SA MDB Natural Resources Management (NRM) Board to deliver a suite of projects under the Strengthening Basin Communities Planning Component in SA (known as “SBC Program in SA”) Program to plan for an uncertain climate future, with a particular focus on water availability.

    The Federal Government’s Water for the Future Program has invested $1.6 million in the SA Murray Darling Basin (SA MDB) region, via the Planning Component of the Strengthening Basin Communities (SBC) program for local government bodies in the Murray-Darling Basin to systematically assess the risks and implications associated with climate change, to develop strategic plans, infrastructure plans and development plan policy to minimise these risks and adapt their business.

    Overview of Projects (SBC Planning Component Round 1)
    The combined SBC Program – Planning Component in the SA MDB NRM region includes:

    Climate Change Adaptation Project
    $250,000 for a Climate Change Impact, Adaptation and Emerging Opportunities Project covering the eleven partner Council areas;
    Infrastructure Projects
    $895,000 for the development of Integrated Water Management Plans (IWMPs) for ten Councils;
    $45,000 for Water Conservation Plans (for built assets and irrigated public open space) for the three Riverland Councils;
    Planning Policy and Strategic Planning
    $300,000 for six Development Plan Amendment projects and the Horticultural/Rural Lands Study;
    $55,000 for a Tourism Strategy (upper Murray Councils) to address the impacts of climate change;
    $5,000 Strategic Plan review and update (Regional Council of Goyder) to address climate change as a best practice model for other Councils in the region.
    Program Governance
    The SBC Program in SA Program is overseen by steering committee with representatives of the eleven partner councils. The South Australian Murray-Darling Basin Natural Resources Management Board provides program management and project management services to the Councils under a partnership agreement.

    Project Partners
    Berri Barmera Council
    District Council Karoonda East Murray
    Alexandrina Council

    Renmark Paringa Council
    Regional Council of Goyder
    District Council of Mount Barker

    District Council of Loxton Waikerie
    Mid Murray Council
    Rural City of Murray Bridge

    Southern Mallee District Council
    Coorong District Council
    South Australian Murray-Darling Basin Natural Resources Management Board

    The SBC Program in SA Program provides policy direction and plans of management that will assist the partner Councils to achieve the objectives set on in their respective Strategic Plans. Equally the implementation of the plans developed under the SBC in SA will contribute to the achievement of the targets set in the SA MDB Regional NRM Plan. The alliance is therefore a logical partnership which has significant benefits for all parties.


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    Kevin Moore

    http://www.cpa.org.au/guardian-pdf/2007/Guardian1310_07-03-2007_screen.pdf

    “The Guardian” Murray-Darling water for nuclear plants


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