JoNova

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50% of Americans don’t want to spend *even one more dollar* on renewables

Who wants to pay more for electricity?

All around the world conservative politicians are afraid to campaign against the cost of renewables. So here comes yet another survey showing a huge voter group sits there unrecognized, invisible, waiting for someone to vote for.

The news from the Center for Climate Change Communication, George Mason University:

Who is willing to pay more for renewable energy?

In two recent national surveys of American adults, we asked how much more per month, if anything, people would be willing to pay to get their electricity from 100% renewable sources. Nearly half of Americans (47%) reported that they were willing to pay more, while 50% said $0.

It’s a devastating result. Think about the fantasy they were being asked to put a price on — on offer was the mythical golden goose of  “100% renewable energy”. It doesn’t exist (unless you count hydroelectricity). Even so, what was that fantastical creature worth? For half of Americans — nothing.

Instead, the Centre for Climate Communication could have put a more realistic price on “100% renewable purity”, and asked how many Americans were willing to pay that exorbitant sum — it might be 1%. Might be less. (Can’t think why the Centre for Climate Change Communications didn’t want to find that out…)

They were expecting so much more:

In our December 2018 Energy in the American Mind report, we found that a bipartisan majority (85%) of American registered voters support requiring electric utilities to transition to renewable energy, even though only 38% think that wind and solar cost less than electricity from coal. This suggests that many Americans may be willing to pay more to get their electricity from renewable sources.

The inconsistencies layer like a supersize lasagne. 63% of Americans know wind and solar costs more than coal. Fully 85%  say they want “climate action”  — they want  to make it law, they know it will cost, and they want someone else to pay for it.

The payment paradox is the same all around the world. People know what they are supposed to say, that renewables are like apple-pie and motherhood and good, good, good. But hardly anyone wants to fork over the cash. But ultimately, if the government legislates  a more expensive energy source, someone has to foot the bill. There are two ways to reconcile the divergent figures: one, that bullying keeps people from admitting that they don’t believe to random pollsters that call in the night; or two, that western education has duped the masses into thinking that the government or companies have some magical pot of money that can cover the cost.

Who wants to pay –  The young and easily led  (Liberal Democrats)

The old, wise and careful are much less willing to pay for weather-changing sorcery.

How telling that the prime deciding factor for “paying up” is politics, not income. (Black-symbols, right, versus green symbols, left).

Climate polling, renewable cost, USA, 2019. Willing to pay?

….

The other predictors are age and education. And given the dime-a-dozen nature of modern degrees, education is partly a proxy for age anyway — there just aren’t that many post-docs in their eighties.

My hypothesis — that climate payments are a meaningless fashion statement — holds up well against the data. Fashion always counts most in youth, and in the inner city, university, left wing arty sector. Everyone wants to be seen to pay, but no one cares if the money really gets there.

Even those willing to pay are not willing to pay much:

The half that were willing to pay for the Golden Climate Goose were offering figures like $1 – $30 per month which is only $12 – $400 annually.

 Overall and on average, Americans are willing to pay an additional $16.25 per month for renewable energy. About one in six (17%) say they would pay between $1 and $10 more, while 15% are willing to pay between $11 and $30, and 14% are willing to pay between $31 and $200 more. Among those who are willing to pay at least some amount more per month, the average is $33.72 per month.

Note the misleading average in the first sentence? The average American is absolutely not willing to pay $16 per month extra. Given that 50% want to pay nothing more, and 17% want to pay $1 – $10 per month, that means 67% of Americans are offering to fork out a lot less than ten dollars.

Cling to that fantasy

The Climate Centre says none of this matters anyhow because their own disappointing study is irrelevant:

It is important to note that public willingness to pay more for renewable energy is likely to become less relevant in coming years, because the costs of generating electricity from renewable energy sources have been rapidly declining . Increasingly, Americans will not have to decide if they are willing to pay more for renewable energy. Rather, they will likely be able to pay less for renewable energy. Because nearly half of Americans are already willing to pay more for renewable energy, we expect that consumer demand and positive sentiments will increase as renewable energy prices fall.

If renewables are so competitive why do we need government funded Climate Centres to ask how much extra the punters will pay?

It takes a large team to sell those white elephants.

REFERENCE

 Gustafson, A., Goldberg, M., Rosenthal, S., Kotcher, J., Maibach, E., & Leiserowitz, A. (2019). Who is willing to pay more for renewable energy? Yale University and George Mason University. New Haven, CT: Yale Program on Climate Change Communication.

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50% of Americans don't want to spend *even one more dollar* on renewables, 9.9 out of 10 based on 55 ratings

124 comments to 50% of Americans don’t want to spend *even one more dollar* on renewables

  • #
    TdeF

    In Australia we voted in successive elections against a carbon tax, against funding renewables. So we have the world’s highest carbon tax without anyone knowing that, pushed through in 2000 as a vague bill for renewable electricity. It is $200 a tonne for coal and $400 a tonne for natural gas. This money is given away to solar panel people in cash and pay in rates and is given away to people who build or operate windmills. This NOT for for electricity. It is a gift. Electricity is extra at what are now the world’s highest rates. How did it come to this?

    90% of our power still comes from the same FREE state owned coal as in 2000 and from fully paid off power stations, our electricity has gone up 900%. Even the ABC say so. The difference is enough to fund multibillion dollar wind farms where giant bird chompers which devastate the landscape pump money from the incomes of every strata of society, without exception. For many people it is 10% of disposable income. It is wrong, theft and should be beyond our parliament to legislate, the forced enrichment of capitalist friends of the Greens. Middle class privelege in solar panels and a total ripoff in private wind farms, all funded by the world’s highest carbon tax.

    It doesn’t matter that no one agreed to this. They were never asked. It doesn’t matter than no one wants to pay. It is law. Legislated theft, hidden by law in your electricity bills. In fact it is not even tax because the money does not go into general revenue and it is not a dreaded carbon tax, as the Act assiduously avoids the use of the word ‘carbon’, talking only of fossil fuels and eligible power sources.

    So when Bob Brown wonders who is paying for a multi billion dollar wind farm in his favorite pristine part of Tasmania and the distribution towers and even a link to the mainland, he is.
    And he and our parliament in Canberra pretend they do not understand why electricity prices are 900% higher than in 2000. Pull the other leg.

    460

    • #
      TdeF

      And the Shell oil company is now proposing Australians pay $200 a tonne carbon tax. What planet are they on? We already do. AGL shareholders are demanding more windtowers from AGL and to shut Liddell, which they were given for nothing. Of course they do. Meanwhile the SA government runs on giant diesels in Elizabeth. The hypocrisy and opportunism is appalling. Is Bob Brown’s Green Tasmania still paying $11 Million a month for rented diesel power?

      And does the windmill driven City of Canberra still have that $35Million in RET certificates in its budget? Public servants helping themselves to the free cash from the free windmills. And the private community Hepburn Wind with its two windmills and no debts are still receiving $840,000 cash gift a year on top of the world’s highest electricity prices. All to save the planet? I don’t think so.

      340

      • #
        Geoff

        Its all about the money and ALWAYS has been. Utilities are the low hanging government regulated fruit. Water, fuel and electricity. Essentials of the economy. We have taken the lowest prices on Earth, that which made Australia rich, and converted them to the highest. No prizes for guessing what happens next.

        If any one thinks this is just a Rudd/Gillard/CFMEU take down try looking at MacBank and a few ex-Liberal leaders.

        All parties are in the trough. PIGS everywhere.

        190

        • #
          Ted O'Brien.

          It’s all about the money and getting more so all the time. If you couldn’t see it you wouldn’t believe it. Communist money and right wing capitalist money working together to destroy the world we live in. The Communists seeking to rule the world, and the right wing capitalists eating, drinking and being merry, let somebody else worry about the future.

          50

        • #
          sophocles

          Wages and salaries continue to decline slowly and steadily.

          Where the cost of living continues to increase annually and incomes remain static or rise at less than the cost of living, then the ability of households to pay for pie-in-the-sky is just not there. It’s little wonder people resist.

          New Zealand suffered at least 12% inflation over just the first three months of this fiscal year, with bread price rises alone of this margin over June this year. June will be the first month after the Northern Hemisphere harvests of winter wheat and winter vegetables. But everybody in NZ knows it couldn’t be that much, because the government statistician was telling us it would be less than 4% for this year. Fancy that: 12% in the first quarter. But it won’t show to that extent in the overall figures: “Man does not live by bread alone.” but it sure helps.

          Climate is not the only lie.

          All the typical recession signs are out there: earthworks for construction have almost finished and the constructions are well under way. The shopping malls are still short of customers: although more are being seen this year than last, they still appear an `endangered species.’ Property prices are still `flat,’ but should start to move towards the end of next year and then take off again. It’s worth careful investment now before the heat hits it later next year — but sell up before the second half of 2025.

          Those of us who have kept an eye on the major Northern Hemisphere cropping, and who had noticed the South African drought last summer and the New South Wales drought would not have been overly surprised. Bread is made from milled grain, and grain crops have been hit hard over the last four NH winters. Prices for wheat and rye, the principle grains used in bread, must rise when demand exceeds supply.

          It’s not going to get better. I think we are starting to see the `cooling signals‘ we have all been expecting. Well. all of us who noticed, excepting the Greens, the Warmists, and the True Believers in Climate Change. It may just have been the higher levels of C02, aka `Plant Fertilizer,’ which has masked this bald truth for as long as it has. It certainly hasn’t been `Warming.’ Whatever.

          I now wonder how long it will take before a `Food Crisis’ overtakes the `Climate Crisis.’ Unlike the Climate Crises declared around the world, a food crisis has the potential to be a real crisis, not a fake one.

          I accept no responsibility nor liability for any `projections/predictions/forecasts’ of mine which either fail to perform or exceed their stated sizes. You’re on yer own. ;-)

          80

      • #
        Dennis

        Hepburn that announced not long ago that no dividends would be paid due to unplanned maintenance expenses and wind availability below estimates.

        120

        • #
          Graeme#4

          Hasn’t AEMO changed the rules, where wind operators must now guarantee a certain level of supplied power? And if they can’t meet their estimate, they are paid less?

          70

          • #
            Dennis

            I am not aware of that Graeme but I did read recently that wind farms’ claims for supply of energy to the main grid are being reduced to take into account the loss between the wind turbines and the main grid along the feeder transmission line, average 11 per cent I understand.

            Maybe that is what your comment covers?

            90

    • #
      James in Melbourne

      TdeF, how do you arrive at $200 and $400? Thanks in advance.

      12

    • #
      WXcycles

      And he and our parliament in Canberra pretend they do not understand why electricity prices are 900% higher than in 2000. Pull the other leg.

      Lucky we’ve got Scott Morrison!

      40

  • #
    Lionell Griffith

    White Elephants are far more valuable/useful than the best of alternate energy sources (meaning not anything that really works). Cheap, reliable, and abundant energy supports technological civilization and fosters humans living well. Hence, they have decided, we must eliminate any source of energy that is cheap, reliable and abundant. Their goal is to drive humans to extinction.

    130

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Corect….and plan B, if we dont buy thier “lets all limit humanity to save the planet” foolishness, appears to be “start another useless war so both sides wipe each other out”. Note whats brewing in the mid east currently…I suspect the elite are hoping to generate a clash of civilisations into a firestorm that becomes self sustaining…..

      121

  • #
    Spetzer86

    Don’t forget the many Renewable Portfolio Standards (RPS) or Renewable Energy Targets (RET) set up in over twenty states. These laws are just sitting there on the books and working in the background, slowly increasing our energy costs without any, or at least not very much, push back. Doesn’t matter if 50% of the people don’t want to go there, we’re already on the bus and heading out of town. The pinch will have to get pretty bad, and someone will have to firmly link the increased cost to the renewable programs, before a significant number of people get up in arms.

    120

  • #
    Zigmaster

    I still think this comment that renewables are getting cheaper so it won’t matter is so ridiculous. I find it crazy that when assessing relative cost they don’t assess the cost of the total package. If renewables (A) + base load backup (B) = total cost , A+B cannot ever be less than B alone. I find it strange that even many sceptical supporters say that renewables can be part of the future mix. Why.?
    We’ve had perfectly good cheap electricity for decades without them. If the only reason for renewables is to reduce CO2 again I ask why? Any government that started to make the case for zero renewables rather than zero emissions would really make a difference to people’s electricity costs. Everyone thinks that we are advancing the world globally , that sceptics stand in the way of great technological advancements. Windmills have been evolving as a technology for hundreds of years yet have a fraction of the efficiency of coal at a massive cost premium. I just don’t know when the penny will drop about renewables.
    The other comment I wanted to make was how you can manipulate surveys to your way of thinking. When asking people how much they would pay extra $10 a month sounds much less than $120 per annum. I’m actually surprised they didn’t ask if people weren’t asked per day. Would you pay 30c per day would get an even higher answer. The reality is that it’s pretty irrelevant because the cost is way more than any of these figures if you try to go to 100% especially if there is a cost put on the cost of intermittency.
    I think Bill Shorten had the best answer. By refusing to give a figure and trying to say what is the cost of not doing anything? My interpretation of that answer ( as probably was the voting public) is whatever it is , it’s a hell of a lot and you probably don’t want to know the answer.

    240

    • #
      PeterS

      So true. I couldn’t care less if renewables were truly free even without subsidies. When it’s night time or the wind isn’t blowing or blowing too much, there is no power. Imagine if coal fired power stations had to be turned off the same amount of time as when renewables are producing too little or no power. Society as we know it would collapse. Yet that’s exactly what the anti-coal pro-renewable twits want.

      230

      • #
        Ted O'Brien.

        I haven’t seen any sign that anybody has recognised that for comparison purposes the cost that should be attributed to coal fired power is the marginal cost in the original system, not the current average or even marginal cost. The coal fired product that was displaced by compulsory admission of renewables was marginal cost product.

        In this politically driven system every concession to renewables increases the cost of coal fired power.

        50

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    Meanwhile, across the ditch, head meets sand …

    “We asked about [doomsday global warming] coverage and got 15,000 responses -

    First, we should declare a few caveats.

    This was a self-selecting survey, not a scientifically robust poll.

    We’re treating the survey as indicative, not definitive.

    Perhaps predictably, Green voters were over-represented.

    A note on ‘balance’ -

    Some respondents used the survey to deny the scientific consensus that [doomsday global warming] is real and caused by human activity.

    Balance is an integral journalistic principle.

    But matching fact with fiction isn’t balance.

    This is not a good faith debate of two equivalent sides.

    When we write about global air travel, we don’t quote Flat Earth Society members who deny the planet is round.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/113711124/we-asked-about-climate-change-coverage-and-got-15000-responses

    The survey wasn’t a glowing report card for journalists.”

    >> Bingo!

    At least next year, they can expect fewer survey responses as they gene pool for stupid reduces, but at least they will have nice weather:

    New Zealand couples concerned for planet choose childless futures

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/114143481/new-zealand-couples-concerned-for-planet-choose-childless-futures

    100

    • #
      Ross

      “Some respondents used the survey to deny the scientific consensus that [doomsday global warming] is real and caused by human activity.”

      I was one of those respondents and I know many others did the same. What did the survey organisers expect?
      As usual the questions were “loaded” as we would expect but they allowed room for comment so that is why I completed the survey even know I knew I was banging my head against the proverbial brick wall.
      This survey was done by the online newspaper Stuff which I commented on the other day. Given it is Australian owned I would not be surprised to see the Aussie arm pick it up and try it over there.

      90

    • #
      OrignalSteve

      And it gets worse….sobering reading…..

      http://catallaxyfiles.com/2019/07/18/what-is-the-biggest-holocaust/

      “The Green New Fascist Deal By Mark Musser From max in the comments.

      “Even as early as 1935, Nazi Germany was the greenest regime on the planet. Their ecological projects worked hand in hand with their wild Social Darwinian biological programs connected to eugenics and scientific racial hygiene. Cleaning up the blood also included cleaning up the environment. Indeed, Nazi biologist Ernst Lehman defined fascism accordingly, “We recognize that separating humanity from nature, from the whole of life, leads to humankind’s own destruction and to the death of nations. Only through a re-integration of humanity into the whole of nature can our people be made stronger. That is the fundamental point of the biological tasks of our age. Humankind alone is no longer the focus of thought, but rather life as a whole… This striving toward connectedness with the totality of life, with nature itself, a nature into which we are born, this is the deepest meaning and the true essence of National Socialist thought.”

      “Out of such a Nazi holistic nature-based worldview came a number of environmental laws that preceded their more overt racial laws. In 1933, the Nazis passed a strict animal rights law. In 1934 they passed a hunting law. Along similar lines, the Nazis also introduced sustainable forestry practices, and essentially became the very originators of what is today called sustainable development that included a great concern for recycling. Even the Four-Year Nazi war plan was to be guided by sustainable development concerns. In 1935, the Nazis passed the totalitarian Reich Nature Protection Act which opened the door to ecological regulation over private property.”

      30

      • #
        OrignalSteve

        Its worth noting, the word “holocaust” is probably a poor choice for the article title and should be reserved for the horrors of what happened in WWII.

        Maybe “damage” might have been a better choice. The article puts it in perspective though.

        21

  • #
    OriginalSteve

    well there is a surprise – those people who know the renewables is one big shell game are calling it out for what is is…

    120

  • #
    el gordo

    The Lowy Poll shows that Australians still think climate change remains the biggest threat to our self interest.

    http://www.lowyinstitute.org/publications/lowy-institute-poll-2019

    41

    • #
      el gordo

      I’ll pull this out from the poll because its more relevant to this post.

      ‘Energy price rises and unreliable electricity supply are frequently cited as reasons for resistance to measures such as carbon pricing or increased use of renewable energy. However, the threat posed by climate change appears to be a greater priority for Australians than either reducing household bills or power blackouts.

      ‘Despite fierce debate about renewables and political disagreement about the now-abandoned National Energy Guarantee policy, almost half of Australians (47%) say that the main priority for the federal government when thinking about energy policy should be ‘reducing carbon emissions’. Fewer (38%) say that ‘reducing household bills’ should be the main priority and only 15% nominate ‘reducing the risk of power blackouts’ as the main priority.

      ‘Again, there are significant differences between the generations on this question: 62% of 18–44 year olds prioritise reducing emissions, compared with 33% of Australians over the age of 45.’

      40

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Here’s the ugly reality no one wants to mention but I will – when youre 20 something you in reality know nothing about how the world *really* works.

        *And* you dont have kids and a mortgage – so you have plenty of cash.

        So put it together,m and the lying Left can happily steal your money and give you nothing in order to “save the planet”

        So the reality is the 20 somethings need thier parents and older relatives to educate them. Normally I’d say this could take 20 years, but right now we nweed a crash course for the younger mob to be rapidly schooled on the time sensitive need for 20 somethings to know their naivity is being exploited by people who think nothing of lying to you, taking your money, and putting you in a form of bondage to them.

        Are the older generation actively schooling younger folks on this reality?

        I like the idea of asking questions rather than confronting them…..makes them curious….and gently exposes their lack of knowledge…..

        140

        • #
          el gordo

          ‘Are the older generation actively schooling younger folks on this reality?’

          Most teachers are women and we need to educate them to pass on the word. Polls don’t differentiate between men and women, this is a problem because a majority of women are clueless on the science.

          So the children are not of great concern, we’ll gently show them reality through humour, but the virtue signalling teachers will need reeducating. To bring this about the ABC has to sack the Trots in the newsroom and replace them with real journalists.

          100

        • #
          el gordo

          Taking this a little further, there has been a turnaround in NSW with the higher echelon deciding a politically correct approach to physics is worthless.

          ‘In 2018, NSW introduced a new HSC physics syllabus, which focuses on complex topics such as thermodynamics and quantum physics, and requires a more technical understanding of physics concepts. It focuses on the physics itself and its modern usage, rather than how we discovered and developed physics in the first place.’

          The Conversation

          50

          • #
            OriginalSteve

            It reminds me of the joke about how many social workers are required to change a lght bulb…..

            Only one it turns out, but the light bulb “has to want to change….”

            Presumbably with all the touchy feely lefties in charge of education science curriculum, the climate “has to want to change…..”

            yeeesh….

            /sarc

            90

    • #
      Dennis

      Your comment reminded me about a comment at another place about a commentator’s elderly mother who was in a nursing home, her son asked her who she intended to vote for and she said not Tony Abbott (Abbott Government), when asked why she replied that he was not a nice person. Asked how she knew that she replied that she hears it all the time on ABC.

      130

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      EG I do not trust the validity or the accuracy of online polls. I checked out the methodology used.
      Here is what Lowey says about this poll :
      “The 2019 Lowy Institute Poll reports the results of a national survey of 2130 Australian adults between 12 and 25 March 2019. The survey was conducted by the Social Research Centre (SRC), using the Life in Australia™ panel – currently the only probability-based online panel in Australia. Members of the panel were randomly recruited via their landline or mobile telephone (rather than being self-selected volunteers) and agreed to provide their contact details to take part in surveys on a regular basis. SRC uses a mixed-mode approach for the panel, including online surveys (89% of respondents) and computer-assisted telephone interviewing (11% of respondents) to provide coverage of the offline population (households without internet access).”

      So…..
      1: Done in March this year when the Labor party was going to win the election… BUT didn’t.. Because the polls were wrong or people changed their minds

      2: 89% per cent of the data was collected via ‘online’ methodology..

      Remember always about anything to do with Statistics:
      There are lies
      There are damned lies
      There are polls.

      70

      • #
        el gordo

        I agree the Lowy poll is dodgy.

        20

      • #
        ivan

        From what I hear a lot of people answer polls with they think the pollster wants to hear rather than using their own opinions. Thia makes most polls useless.

        30

        • #
          Bill in Oz

          The polls ask the questions they think are important
          Not the questions that the ‘pollees’ ( NOT pollies ) think are important.

          But EG if a poll is dodgy why give it credence by citing it here
          As evidence for anything ?

          30

          • #
            el gordo

            All the polls are now suspect after Trump, Brexit and Morrison, but if we drop them completely then we are flying blind. Do you have an alternative means of unravelling what people think?

            10

  • #
    Antoine D'Arche

    They’re working to drive down energy consumption (and thence population etc). Evidenced by the latest crap from power companies et al about demand whateverthef… they call it. Some people will consider grid fragility and turn off to help it. Some will look to make money from turning off appliances etc. Some will do it (cause they’re stupid) to save the planet.
    And some like me will turn everything on to bring on a grid crash and a big sociopolitical reset.
    Enough is enough.

    140

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      I agree.

      Its an artificial crisis to create a type of self imposed cringing slavery – caused by people who either dont care or are too lazy to research the climate lie……

      Anyone foolish enough not to becurious about science will suffer the consequences.

      Most normal people ( i.e. those who have just enough nouse to operate an iphone, but dont understand science…like most pollies….) don’t realize they are in a tyrannical Technocracy.

      Bit hard to know you’re in slavery if its so cleverly covered with layers of emotional, bleeding heart “save the planet” nonsense…..this stuff is also designed to target women as a for of propaganda-based abuse.

      100

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Should read “…as a form of propaganda-based abuse.”

        40

        • #
          sophocles

          OS:
          I recognize your keyboard: it must be the same make/model as mine! :-P
          Made by TM Co Ltd
          (Typmatic Misadventures Co Ltd)

          50

    • #
      PeterS

      The same is being done with water. I have no issue at being as efficient as possible but there is a limit. The rules and regulations being placed upon us with energy and water have already gone to far. We need more coal fired power stations, not less, and we need more dams, if we are to continue to grow as a nation. This is especially so for our farmers if we are to keep placing Australian grown food on our tables. If we don’t we will very likely one day have to import most if not all of our food. We already have gone down that road with car manufacturing, fuel and other things so it’s not out of the question that food will join the list of fully imported items. Our so called leaders are such a pathetic lot, and that includes PM Morrison. They are all talk and little or no action.

      130

      • #
        Dennis

        Another imposition on our society led by former Minister and later Prime Minister Turnbull together with various state governments.

        And now a UN Committee is interfering in a NSW Government proposal to raise the Warragamba Dam wall, and Federal Government flight paths for the under construction International Airport at Badgerys Creek, western Sydney.

        The Committee of foreigners and globalism socialism.

        100

        • #
          Bill in Oz

          Don’t worry Dennis
          The bloody foreigners
          Always know best.
          How to stuff things up !
          :-)
          Maybe a collective fart when they land in Sydney
          Would send them a message ?

          50

  • #
    Kinky Keith

    Another great, incisive post Jo.

    While reading it and finding out what was happening I was waiting for the “next step”, The Why.

    The first two comments neatly tied the whole thing together and showed Why.

    The Money.

    Further assessment of this point, The Money, may help people understand that this has never been about the CO2 Science or the Environment.

    It’s clear that every Australian household is forking out a surcharge/hidden tax/overpayment for electricity of AUD$1,000 annually.

    Certainly, some of that goes to producing the hard assets like windmills, solar display units for field and roof plus electrical infrastructure to deal with Unreliable electrons.

    But that’s Never been the driver. The issue is what’s left over after all the physical junk has been made.

    There’s a significant “skim” from all this turnover, just ask the banks how much they make and more importantly there are those who devised, pushed and enlarged it.

    btw, where is MalEx444? and the many others like him.

    White Elephants Rule. Can people see them.

    KK

    150

    • #
      Yonniestone

      People will never see the White Elephant in the ruse as long as they have the mindset of not being interested in politics, this head in the sand attitude is perhaps been the greatest assistance to implementing Green schemes, Australians need to snap out of the ‘she’ll be right’ mentality about politics and take on ‘The charge of the Light Brigade’ tenacity .

      The more Australians think and accept that bigger government is the answer for every concern in their lives the worse it will get for their liberties future survival.

      140

      • #
        Bill in Oz

        Yonnie the past 30 years have seen the progressive sale of Australian State owned power & gas utilities.
        And in step with that process the costs of power & gas have risen for consumers.
        An argument must be based on the facts mate.
        NOT ideology.

        40

  • #

    I’m willing to pay more to dismantle all clunky and outdated energy tech.

    That means more dollars toward dismantling mainstream wind and solar, as well as SA’s big battery and any wave generators still afloat. It all has to go to the tip. The cost will be phenomenal, but after a disaster you rebuild, regardless of cost.

    I’m also willing to pay more for the extension and modernisation of Australia’s domestic coal power gen. Good things don’t come cheap.

    And I’m willing to chip in for experimental energy ideas which are genuinely new, even though we’ve squandered billions on useless antiques laughably called renewables. We should not lose faith in innovation just because the hucksters and carpetbaggers of Big Green have succeeded in palming off their moldy old clutter as new goods. Let them go off to their owl burnings and pay-for-play postings. They’ve plundered the till, but we still have brains and energy left…maybe even some common sense.

    In the meantime, in between times…ain’t we got coal?

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    Ross

    I picked up this link from someone else’s post on this site last week.

    https://economics21.org/inconvenient-realities-new-energy-economy

    I think it needs to be spread about to a much wider audience, it is so good !!.

    I like the way the summary is done with punchy bullet points, because in most cases they are written in ways most people can understand and relate to. Someone like Tony with all the Australian data at hand maybe able to put in some Australian equivalents to the points being made.

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  • #
    Ruairi

    Half the U.S. would rather pay nil,
    To foot the renewable bill,
    Showing sound common sense,
    With their dollars and cents,
    If reflecting the national will.

    160

  • #
    Robert Swan

    Nice that this survey has around 42% of people with graduate degrees who aren’t convinced. Where was that 97% consensus again?

    BTW Jo, I think your colour calibration is off. Income looks green not blue.

    70

    • #
      Annie

      Probably to do with using F.lux at a guess. It happened before when Jo put something on overnight.

      [Oops. Yes. Spot on Annie. F.lux set at "cave painting" light level. - Jo]

      50

      • #
        Hanrahan

        I once had Flux installed, something to do with being able to sleep after using the puter at night. Is that all there is to it?

        40

  • #
    Dennis

    Simple, let the free market capitalism system work it out, zero government support/subsidies for electricity generator sources apart from tax deductions based on expenses incurred in producing taxable income.

    70

    • #
      Yonniestone

      A free market and independent thought will not be tolerated in the new UN Utopia of Australiastan Comrades.

      A place where the less you have the greater the fear is indeed Terra nullius.

      80

  • #
    Dennis

    A voter knows how bad the situation is when their local MP either ignores questions asked by email (most often) or replies with a letter (once) of no worthwhile content with attached media releases from the Federal and State Cabinet Ministers responsible.

    The club members stick together, too bad about their constituents.

    100

    • #
      John in Oz

      I have a letter from the South Australian Minister for silly walks Energy and Mining, Dan van Holst Pelikaan, after I mentioned faults of renewables in an AEMO report and that renewables will not deliver affordable and reliable power.

      His response includes:

      …so we can address challenges and capture the opportunities of the renewable revolution while driving costs down for consumers.”

      Our initiatives are based on expert economic modelling and a non-ideological, pragmatic approach to ensure an orderly transition that makes the most of world-class renewable resources.

      The misplaced idea that renewables will reduce prices, often phrased as ‘put downward pressure’, has been touted for 20 years or more yet experience shows prices only going up.

      Their ‘expert economic modelling’ must be very selective and from a tame economist as their are many economic reports saying the opposite, as well as showing that we can never attain 100% renewable power.

      The aim of this current government is also shown when, in the same sentence, he claims to be ‘non-ideological’ and wanting to ‘ensure an orderly transition’ to renewables.

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      • #
        Hanrahan

        Someone just recently raised the “desirability” of subsidising household batteries. That’s an expensive bandaid on a gaping chest wound.

        130

      • #
        Kinky Keith

        Good catch.

        70

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        “Our initiatives are based on expert economic modelling and a non-ideological, pragmatic approach to ensure an orderly transition that makes the most of world-class renewable resources.”

        “Orderly”…..that sounds very much like “were going to shove it down ya throat….”

        Has anyone told these people that thier idea wont fly, and that the sensible public will just tell to go on holiday?

        Stuff can only go badly with what appears to be their “we know whats good for you” tone….

        70

      • #
        Bill in Oz

        John,
        I wonder what our local member or Kavel Dan Gregan, thinks of his dopey minister from his own party ?
        Still up for a coffee ?

        40

        • #
          John in Oz

          Yes

          haven’t gotten around to being in town in the afternoon (and we use Sazon’s in the mornings)

          20

          • #
            Bill in Oz

            Ahhh you mingle with all the other greenies
            Saving the planet
            At Sazon’s !
            The owner there ( Jose ) has worked out his target market very nicely.
            ‘Cool’ Mexican style food !
            Well what about next Monday ?

            20

  • #
    John in Oz

    Rather, they will likely be able to pay less for renewable energy.

    In 2010 I was paying 20c/kWH for electricity, I am now paying 38c/kWH.

    If renewables become more efficient and lower the CURRENT price to, say, 30c/kWH then the price will be reduced (from a forced high) at the same time as the price is higher (than it could be with fossil fuels).

    Both sides would still be arguing the economics are in their favour.

    100

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      “The art of taxation consists of plucking the goose so as to obtain the most feathers with the least hissing.”

      ― Jean-Baptiste Colbert (Minister for Louis the fourteenth.

      Hasn’t changed in the last 300 years.

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  • #
    Bill in Oz

    Here in Australia I have come to the conclusion that actually ‘confronting’ Liberal party MP’s about their dopey high cost power policies is the way to go.
    Labor & the Greens are . a bunch of dim witted greenists. who believe that are saving the planet.
    The only hope for restoring normal power costs is the National party and the conservatives in the Liberal party.

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    • #
      Dennis

      Bill traditionally the Liberal-National-Labor-Green side attracted about 80 per cent of the primary vote during federal elections and that has dropped to about 60 per cent, and noting that in 2019 Labor attracted their lowest primary vote ever.

      Cleary 40 per cent of voters are not happy with the two-party musical chairs game of politics.

      I had hoped for a hung parliament election result but the tiny majority the Coalition Government now has is second prize in my opinion.

      As Don Chip, former and now deceased leader of the Australian Democrats claimed to be doing: keep the bastards honest, with due consideration for the globalism and UN influencing our politicians far more than their constituents are able to influence them we need a circuit breaker.

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  • #

    Note to foreign readers: In America, Liberal Democrat means Maoist Communist/Ecological National Socialist. Conservatives are a blend of Eisenhower Christian Scientists and Dixiecrat George Wallace racial collectivists concerned exclusively, like Ceausescu, with forcing women to reproduce by holding physicians at gunpoint (AND jailing hippies). These redrawings of lines in the sand result from spoiler votes cast in the George Wallace campaigns of 1968 and 1972 (when, like JFK, he was riddled with bullets), and the New Left/Green Econazi coalition that helped George Waffen Bush (instead of Al Gore) to destroy the economy through prohibitionist asset forfeiture instead of energy strangulation. The entrenched, subsidized kleptocracy parties are 165 and 227 years old (average age 196). Their context, therefore, is closer to 1823 than 2019. Small winder that pro-energy Libertarian Party growth is a hockey stick now equal to all votes cast in Virginia and far more than the difference between the gerontocracy parties’ vote tallies.

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  • #
    Hanrahan

    That graphic tells us that young, college educated, high income urban dwelling progressives have the spare $s to waste. So, what’s new?

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  • #
    Hanrahan

    That graphic got me thinking about playing minority politics. The left are working on the theory that if they push enough minority issues [would there be more than 1% trans?] eventually there would be a plurality of voters to get them up. Methinks they are a$$ about face, that eventually the percentage of the majority who do not identify with the minorities and have a strong opinion on one or more issues will ensure that the progressives remain a minority.

    Whose logic is correct?

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  • #
    Zane

    Big oil/gas is talking about using coal but doing the nonsensical carbon capture thing. More unnecessary costs. Exxon has a carbon capture division and see it as a nice future profit centre. One way or another, they want to increase our utility bills in the name of saving the planet.

    We are pooched, to use a Canadian expression.

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  • #
    Zane

    How long before a pollie proposes burning, wait for it, wood pellets in our existing coal generators because it is ” renewable “. The UK does it, Germany does it, the higher CO2 emissions from wood versus coal are given a get out of jail free card by the green apparatchiks at the UN and EU.

    It’s coming!

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    • #
      RickWill

      When you do the economics on dispatchable solar/wind plus storage it becomes clear that forests are more than competitive as an energy source.

      A managed forest in any Australian region with reasonable rainfall will store 10kWh/sq.m/year on a sustainable basis. That translates to just 5% of Australia’s area with managed forests to meet the present power demand. This is one of the few ways of getting reliable, long term energy storage. It is way lower cost than battery and lower cost than pumped storage in Australia.

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  • #
    Alice Thermopolis

    “It takes a large team to sell those white elephants.” (JN)

    No surprise to find one of Professor Lewandowsky’s students on that team, the “97%” guy, John Cook.

    https://www.climatechangecommunication.org/portfolio-view/john-cook/

    John Cook is a research assistant professor at the Center for Climate Change Communication at George Mason University, researching cognitive science. In 2007, he founded Skeptical Science, a website which won the 2011 Australian Museum Eureka Prize for the Advancement of Climate Change Knowledge and 2016 Friend of the Planet Award from the National Center for Science Education. John co-authored the college textbooks Climate Change: Examining the Facts with Weber State University professor Daniel Bedford. He was also a coauthor of the textbook Climate Change Science: A Modern Synthesis and the book Climate Change Denial: Heads in the Sand.

    In 2013, he published a paper analysing the scientific consensus on climate change that has been highlighted by President Obama and UK Prime Minister David Cameron. In 2015, he developed a Massive Open Online Course at the University of Queensland on climate science denial, that has received over 25,000 enrollments.

    John earned his PhD in Cognitive Science at the University of Western Australia in 2016.

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  • #
    Alice Thermopolis

    Surprise, surprise.

    Update on status of Professor Lewandowsky’s controversial – among many skeptics – Blog:

    Welcome back to Shapingtomorrowsworld.org
    Stephan Lewandowsky

    The Shapingtomorrowsworld.org blog experienced unexpected and unresolvable technical difficulties on its original host several months ago. We have recreated the blog on this new host, using the WordPress software, which will provide a stable platform from here on. In the process, it has also been integrated with http://www.cogsciWA.com, Stephan Lewandowsky’s academic home page.

    All original posts published on Shapingtomorrowsworld.org will gradually be ported to the new host and will appear below over the next few weeks or months.

    Unfortunately, it would be prohibitively time consuming to transfer comments from the original content, so they will not become available here in the future.

    [How convenient.Seem to recall quite a few were critical of Lewandowsky's posts. Best to make a new start?]

    Blogging will resume once all the development and transfer tasks have been completed. Thank you for your patience until then.

    It is intriguing that my paper, NASA faked the moon landing—therefore (climate) science is a hoax: An anatomy of the motivated rejection of science, continues to attract attention, nearly 7 years after it first saw the light of day and after numerous replications of one of its main findings that has caused such a stir. The most recent report of an association between endorsement of conspiracy theories and the rejection of climate science appeared in Nature Climate Change in an article by Mat Hornsey and colleagues.

    A few days ago a blogpost appeared under the somewhat alarming headline that Lewandowsky data had been altered.”

    Jo, a post on this intriguing new chapter in the Lewandowsky saga?

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    pat

    I’ve been criticising recent changes to 4RPH (Radio for the Print Handicapped) on AM radio, which has replaced BBC World Sce from midnight to 6am with a whole variety of extreme far left radio programs, including much CAGW advocacy. last nite they had a Beyond Zero Emissions (BZE) piece on Northern Territory “renewables” which I can’t find online as yet. it ended with BZE person saying ABC, Guardian & RenewEconomy had given them great coverage – see below:

    15 Jul: Facebook: Radio 4RPH
    A statement from our Station Manager, ***Scott Black, regarding the concerns of our community regarding the Vision Australia Radio situation:
    “We understand that many have read or heard on New Horizons or through the news this week that Vision Australia Radio is having some financial troubles. Many have expressed their concern to us that the Radio 4RPH service may discontinue as a result. There is no threat of that. Radio 4RPH is a proudly independent RPH station and the only link we have to Vision Australia Radio is that we are both parts of the RPH Australia sector. We also take a few programs that are produced by Vision Australia Radio including, Vision Extra, Focal Point, Computalk, Talking Vision, and Talking Tech…
    We hope for the best for Vision Australia Radio, but as a stable and flourishing independent broadcaster, Radio 4RPH is committed to providing the best content to our audience. Radio 4RPH isn’t going anywhere.”
    Scott will also be on ***ABC Brisbane after at 2:45PM today to discuss the situation if you would like more information.
    https://www.facebook.com/Radio4RPH/posts/2342083806051052

    ***LinkedIn: Scott Black, Community Broadcasting Professsional, Comedian, Screenwriter, and owner of a vintage toaster!
    Station Manager, Radio 4RPH, June 2017 – Present
    Volunteering Experience
    Presenter – Talking TV, ABC Local Radio Queesland, January 2015
    Television Grant Advisory Committee, Community Broadcasting Foundation Ltd
    April 2013- Feb 2016…

    I don’t know whether Vision Australia radio is running the extreme stuff on other community radio stations, but this is the story mentioned on FB by Scott Black:

    17 Jul: Shepparton News: Vision Australia radio future in doubt
    After 40 years on the airwaves, Vision Australia Radio may be no more next year due to a lack of funding support from the Federal Government.
    Operated by Vision Australia, the Shepparton service is one of seven radio stations run by the national not-for-profit organisation in regional Victoria which ensures people in the area have access to printed material that may otherwise be off limits.
    Following the roll out of the National Disability Insurance Scheme, Vision Australia needs to secure $700000 per year from the government to ensure the future of the service.
    The News believes Vision Australia Radio currently receives $600000 in Federal Government money.
    Vision Australia government relations and advocacy manager Chris Edwards visited the region yesterday to advocate for the service…
    “Each year more than 700000 people tune into Vision Australia Radio”.
    ‘‘Closure would mean equal access to broadcast media for people with a print disability is severely restricted and local and diverse content will be lost for good.’’…
    https://www.sheppnews.com.au/@news/2019/07/17/686219/radiofutureindoubt

    Vision Australia hoping to secure funding for Bendigo radio service
    Bendigo Advertiser-11 Jul 2019
    The Vision Australia radio studio in Bendigo could be one of ten stations to close in the coming months unless the organisation is able to secure $700,000 in federal government funding…

    more to come.

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    • #
      pat

      this would be the Beyond Zero Emissions coverage mentioned on 4RPH last nite, which suggests the BZE program being aired was probably a few weeks old:

      AUDIO: 12min26sec: 25 Jun: ABC: Is the NT on the cusp of a renewable energy boom?
      On NT Country Hour with Matt Brann
      One company has already proposed a $20 billion solar farm in the Barkly to supply power to Singapore, while others are looking into opportunities for renewable hydrogen.
      Eytan Lenko from Beyond Zero Emissions, believes the NT could generate 10 gigawatts of renewable energy by 2030.
      https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/nt-country-hour/is-the-northern-territory-about-to-have-a-renewable-energy-boom/11245222

      20 Jun: Guardian: Clean energy found to be a ‘pathway to prosperity’ for Northern Territory
      Renewable energy is not only a money-spinner for the NT, it can also help mining industries expand, a new report says
      by Adam Morton
      Eytan Lenko, chairman of the thinktank Beyond Zero Emissions, commissioned the report while living in Darwin in 2018 after seeing divisions in the community between people concerned about the health of the economy and those opposed to fracking. He says the full plan would cost businesses about $20bn out to 2030 on today’s prices, though the scale of the investment is expected to fall as clean tech becomes cheaper. It estimates it could create more than 8,000 jobs and yield more than $2bn in annual export revenue…

      Renewable energy costs 30%-50% more in the NT than elsewhere in Australia but this premium is expected to disappear if the industry reaches scale…
      The report finds adopting electric vehicles could lower the cost of running a car by as much 80%, given Territorians face inflated petrol prices and there are relatively few arterial roads that would need charging infrastructure. Similarly the report estimates replacing Darwin’s gas-fired electricity with solar power and batteries could cut electricity bills by about 30%.

      The report is co-written by the green group Environment Centre NT and will be launched on Thursday at the NT parliament by the territory’s renewables and energy minister, Dale Wakefield. It follows a similar Beyond Zero Emissions blueprint for the South Australian city of Port Augusta to replace coal with solar…
      Lenko says: “We know the NT has the best renewable energy resource in the world and renewable energy is the cheapest form of energy. We just need to free our minds to look at what’s possible.”
      https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jun/20/clean-energy-found-to-be-a-pathway-to-prosperity-for-northern-territory

      20 Jun: RenewEconomy: Why the NT should choose 100% renewables, instead of fracked gas
      by Eytan Lenko
      Being the chair of climate-solutions think-tank Beyond Zero Emissions(BZE), this sounded like an opportunity. The NT has the world’s best solar resource and renewables are now the cheapest form of energy generation…
      This was the genesis of the BZE 10 Gigawatt vision for the NT (LINK), which launched on Thursday at Parliament in Darwin…
      The current electricity grid in the NT has a capacity of around 1 Gigawatt (GW). The BZE vision proposes a revolution in the NT economy through building 10GW of renewables…
      https://reneweconomy.com.au/why-the-nt-should-choose-100-renewables-instead-of-fracked-gas-62708/

      BZE (Beyond Zero Emissions) Radio Show
      Beyond Zero Emissions presents two weekly programs on 3CR community radio 855AM, covering all issues relating to climate change including the latest news, interviews, science, solutions, technology and community actions.The shows are entirely produced by volunteers.
      Guest speakers
      We have been fortunate to welcome a large number of locally known and world-renowned speakers to past radio community and technology shows including:
      •Dr Tim Flannery, 2007 Australian of the Year
      •Dr David Suzuki, Scientist and environmentalist
      •Dr David Mills, Chief Scientific Officer and founder, Ausra
      •Prof Wieslaw Maslowski, US Naval Postgraduate School, Oceanography
      •Amory B. Lovins, Rocky Mountain Institute
      •Prof Schellnhuber, Director, Potsdam Institute
      •Prof Clive Hamilton, Author and professor of public ethics, ANU
      •Tony Kevin, Author of Crunchtime
      •Dr Keith Lovegrove, Solar Thermal Group, ANU
      •Philip Sutton, Greenleap Strategic Institute
      •David Spratt, Author of Climate Code Red
      •David Rovics, Singer/songwriter
      https://bze.org.au/about-us/radio-show/

      About BZE
      BZE is a member of:
      •Global 100% Renewable Energy Campaign (founding member), which encourages communities, companies, regions, islands and even whole countries to join the transition to 100% renewable energy.
      •Climate Action Network Australia, working to protect people from climate change and safeguard our natural environment.
      •TAKE2 – Victoria’s Climate Change Pledge (founding member)
      •Stop Adani Alliance
      •Hands off Our Charity Alliance.
      Beyond Zero Emissions is powered by volunteers: engineers, scientists, economists and communicators all contribute their time and expertise to develop and promote climate solutions that support a rapid transition to zero emissions. Can you join us?…

      BZE – Our Board
      Phil Vernon, Chair
      Phil is the Managing Director of Australian Ethical Investment, Australia’s leading ethical superannuation fund and investment manager with over $2.6 billion in funds under management.
      Phil has over 30 years’ experience in financial services.
      Prior to Australian Ethical he was a senior Executive with Perpetual Limited. He is a Director of the Responsible Investment Association of Australia and the Planet Ark Environmental Foundation. He is also Chairman of Beyond Zero Emissions…
      David Hood AM
      Professor David Hood AM is a civil and environmental engineer with vast experience across major civil and military projects, professional development in emerging economies, senior management in both the public and private sectors and in education…
      In 2006, David initiated and was Founding Chairman until 2011 of the Australian Green Infrastructure Council (AGIC now ISCA), an industry association which developed the world’s first full sustainability rating scheme for infrastructure. As an Adjunct Professor at QUT, David led the Sustainability Program of the CRC for Infrastructure and Engineering Asset Management (CIEAM) until 2013. David is currently an Adjunct Professor at the University of Queensland’s Energy Initiative.
      David is an accredited Presenter with Al Gore’s Climate Reality Project, and in August 2011, David was included in the ABC Carbon list of the top 100 Sustainability leaders in the world (and every year since)…

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  • #
    Ross

    It looks like Germany has a problem with future energy supplies.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-power-supply-insight/does-renewables-pioneer-germany-risk-running-out-of-power-idUSKCN1UD0GZ

    But note the “industry” still talks about carbon neutrality by 2050.

    The question now seems,to me, to be which country will be the first to really suffer because of a lack of electricity.

    60

  • #
    MudCrab

    …education is partly a proxy for age anyway…

    I feel ‘education’ is more a proxy for political leaning.

    Given that most higher education is for Hobby Degrees, for the most part the main useful contribution to society of universities is keeping the unemployable from clogging up the young adult job market.

    Higher education for the most part is shorthand for ‘I’m a Socialist’ these days.

    21

  • #
    pat

    completely mad.
    multiple pics & videos, plus a 26min58 audio. ***The Trust Project page is a laugh, worth a read:

    VIDEO: 5min16sec: 17 Jul: Sky News UK: Exclusive: UK carbon emissions target ‘doing more harm than good’, teen climate activist Greta Thunberg tells Sky News
    The activist tells Sky News the UK’s pledge to produce net zero carbon emissions by 2050 is “doing more harm than good”.
    By Hannah Thomas-Peter, climate change correspondent, and David Mercer, news reporter
    LINK Why you can trust Sky News
    (links to ***The Trust Project, includes:
    Ownership and funding
    Sky News is an editorially independent part of Sky UK. Sky UK’s parent company Comcast NBCUniversal has guaranteed current funding levels for Sky News until at least 2028)

    The 16-year-old Nobel Peace Prize nominee – who has inspired an international movement to fight climate change – urged politicians to act now on the issue or risk being viewed as “some of the greatest villains in human history”…

    In an interview with Sky News in Stockholm, Thunberg said many young people felt “sad, angry and scared” at the failure of adults – including politicians – to tackle the climate crisis…
    “If they don’t act now, then in the future they will be seen as some of the greatest villains in human history and we will not judge them easy,” she said.
    “But, I mean, they can still change that.”…

    “Many children understand – more than adults – that it is our children at risk,” she said.
    “We also have enormous power. As a young person, you always have a natural instinct to rebel in a way and it’s very useful in a situation like this.”…
    Thunberg said anxiety among young people over the climate crisis was “a very big problem”.
    “Many people feel sad, angry and scared that nothing is being done and that in every bit of our everyday life, we are fuelling this crisis,” she added…

    Professor Myles Allen, who co-authored a UN report on climate change, applauded the work of the school strikers but defended the UK’s carbon target.
    He said: “The rhetoric of climate emergency is clearly very powerful, it’s clearly working, in terms of raising the agenda, but it is dangerous as well. I think we have to recognise the dangers.
    “You could make an argument that the UK should be doing more because we, as a country, have actually put more carbon in the atmosphere per head of population than just about any other country in the world.
    “But at least it is consistent with a global effort to limit warming to 1.5 degrees.”
    https://news.sky.com/story/uk-carbon-emissions-target-doing-more-harm-than-good-teen-climate-activist-greta-thunberg-tells-sky-news-11764916

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    Mike Jonas

    Jo – With many respondents only prepared to pay a little, and very few prepared to pay a lot, maybe this is one of those situations where median may be more meaningful than average. To save you the time and effort of calculating the median monthly amount that respondents are prepared to pay for 100% renewables, I have calculated it for you: $0.

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  • #
    pat

    as if Merzia/TAI don’t get enough media-time already!

    AUDIO: 13min31sec: 19 Jul: 2GB: Michael McLaren: Richie Merzian (TAI) with Michael Mclaren
    Michael chats with Richie Merzian from the Australian about using electricity to solve our potential liquid fuel crisis
    https://www.2gb.com/podcast/richie-merzian-with-michael-mclaren/

    summary is as above. McLaren thinks their submission to the Govt re review on liquid fuel security is interesting! electric vehicles, better public transport.

    Merzian: we can do a lot with renewables. questionable we could refine crude. if everyone globally is shifting to electric vehicles and we empower them…refineries are a relic of the past…transmission lines need to be built. coal plant break-downs causing blackouts. renewables are the cheapest form of new generation.

    11

  • #
    Dennis

    Energy problems?

    No need for concern reports the EV promotion group NRMA Open Road Magazine.

    “Will EVs overload the grid? Managed correctly EVs can increase the reliability of the grid while reducing the unit price of electricity for consumers .. even those who don’t drive an EV.”

    “EVs could put electricity back into the household or even the grid. Australia can avoid both blackouts and undertaking mass new investment in power generation if this transition is managed appropriately.”

    I add: So coupled to closure of businesses when peak demand is expected, losses reimbursed by government using taxpayer’s monies, there is no energy crisis.

    And so the brainwashing continues.

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    pat

    read all:

    18 Jul: Reuters: Does renewables pioneer Germany risk running out of power?
    by Vera Eckert
    FRANKFURT – Germany, a poster child for responsible energy, is renouncing nuclear and coal. The problem is, say many power producers and grid operators, it may struggle to keep the lights on…
    In the next three years alone conventional energy capacity is expected to fall by a fifth, leaving it short of the country’s peak power demand. There is disagreement over whether there will be sufficient reliable capacity to preclude the possibility of outages, which could hammer the operations of industrial companies.

    The Berlin government, in a report issued this month, said the situation was secure, and shortfalls could be offset by better energy efficiency, a steadily rising supply of solar and wind power as well as electricity imports.
    Others are not as confident, including many utilities, network operators, manufacturing companies and analysts…

    However Germany’s four transmission system operators (TSO) estimate there could be a shortfall of 5.5 gigawatts between peak power demand and reliable capacity in 2021, which equates to the supply of electricity to 13-14 million people, and that’s before factoring in the bulk of coal plant closures…READ ALL
    https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-europe-power-supply-insight/does-renewables-pioneer-germany-risk-running-out-of-power-idUKKCN1UD0GZ

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    pat

    behind paywall:

    17 Jul: BusinessGreen: Swansea pension fund switches £500m to low carbon strategy
    by James Phillips, Professional Pensions
    The City and County of Swansea Local Government Pension Scheme (LGPS) will swap around a quarter of its assets to a low carbon fund by the end of the month, it has announced. The £2.1bn local authority scheme will transition £500m of equities into MSCI’s world low-carbon target index fund, with BlackRock managing the assets, following trustee training on ESG issues…
    https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3079066/swansea-pension-fund-switches-gbp500m-to-low-carbon-strategy

    16 Jul: Financial Standard: Irish pension funds reduce equity exposure
    BY ELIZABETH MCARTHUR
    Mercer head of investment consulting Olivier Santamaria: “We expect the increasing focus on sustainability to continue and anticipate ESG factors will become an integral part of investment strategy setting and risk management.”
    The report also found 55% of European pension schemes consider ESG risks as part of their standard investment decision-making, up 15% from 2018.
    About 29% of pension schemes that responded said they consider ESG an important way to mitigate potential reputational damage, up from 18% in 2018.

    Further, 56% of pension funds said regulation is a key driver behind the rise in importance of ESG.
    Mercer expects an increase in ESG attention to continue as a result of the 2017 European Pension Directive, IORPII and the UK Department of Work and Pension Investment Regulations coming into force in October 2019.
    Both these regulatory initiatives require pension funds to take ESG factors like climate change into account when making investment decisions.
    https://www.financialstandard.com.au/news/irish-pension-funds-reduce-equity-exposure-139192209

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      pat

      18 Jul: CorporateSecretary: House panel passes climate risk disclosure bill
      by Ben Maiden
      The Climate Risk Disclosure Act of 2019 would order the SEC to consult with climate experts at other government agencies and then issue rules requiring that each public company disclose…
      As well as Casten, the bill was introduced by Senator Elizabeth Warren, D-Massachusetts, who is running to be the Democratic nominee for president in 2020. According to Casten’s office, the Climate Risk Disclosure Act is co-sponsored by senators Michael Bennet, D-Colorado, Cory Booker, D-New Jersey, Kirsten Gillibrand, D-New York, Kamala Harris, D-California and Amy Klobuchar, D-Minnesota, all of whom are also running for president…

      If successful, it would then almost certainly face being vetoed by President Donald Trump, whose administration is skeptical of climate change and pulled the US out of the Paris climate change accords. But the legislation has attracted considerable political and industry support, reflecting the growing pressures on companies to make climate-related disclosures – with or without governmental requirements…
      Casten’s office says the legislation is further endorsed by more than 20 organizations such as As You Sow, Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace USA, the Sierra Club, Sisters of St Francis of Philadelphia and Vert Asset Management…

      Ceres CEO and president Mindy Lubber said her organization supports SEC climate disclosure rules ‘because of the need for comparable, robust reporting that meets investors’ needs and helps companies manage risks…
      James Andrus, investment manager for sustainable investments at CalPERS, in testimony to the panel on July 10, said the pension fund manager backs the Climate Risk Disclosure Act ‘because it will support investors in understanding the sustainability of their investments and in the development of the type of sustainable economy through which pension funds such as CalPERS can generate the returns we need over the long term.’
      https://www.corporatesecretary.com/articles/compliance/31710/house-panel-passes-climate-risk-disclosure-bill

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  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    And yet massive investment in solar/battery sites with DC links to the asia is gaining momentum in the NT. Singapore, as an example, is looking to source 25% of its power needs from the NT, and Darwin will also benefit from another massive site already under construction. Tesla has also provided batteries for a second site near the SA/Vic border. Cost is not, and never should be the only consideration.

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    • #
      Hanrahan

      Cost is not, and never should be the only consideration.

      Yeah, sanity should prevail.

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      Bill in Oz

      The canny Chinese in Singapore can always work out a nice earningRORT Peter
      They do not care about the cost
      So long as it is NOT them paying.

      But the idea of a DC power cable from Darwin to Singapore is so preposterous as to be laughable.
      It would only be about 1800 kilometers underwater. with all the issues of trying to maintain working a cable of that length
      Plus any such cable would have to cross a very earthquake prone zone likely to bust the cable
      Plus such cable would have to cross Indonesian & maybe Timur L’Este maritime waters
      And be subject to their regulations and depredations by folks wanting to bleed the power off for themselves.

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      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        Time will tell, theres nothing really different to a fibre optic cable in terms of law, and nothing in the physics to stop it

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        • #
          AndyG55

          “theres nothing really different to a fibre optic cable in terms of law”

          Yet again with the PF ignorance.

          Tesla batteries are INSIGNIFICANT, they DO NOT produce electricity and to store any usable energy would have to be 1000s of times bigger.

          Metallic wire has all sorts of characteristics that make it very difference indeed from fibre.

          Fibre passed a tiny signal, the wire they are talking about has to carry a huge current through a resistive, capacitive, inductive and magnetic field producting material.

          They are nothing similar in any way.

          Your base-level ignorance yet again lets you SWALLOW whatever GW and “unreliables” BS that is put in front of you.

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      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        Time will tell, theres nothing really different to a fibre optic cable in terms of law, and nothing in the physics to stop it

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        • #
          Bill in Oz

          Peter You seem to think that repeating complete nonsense means you are right.
          Sorry mate that comment is pure dopiness.
          ASA TdeF says there is a huge differnece between a fiber optic cable and a DC ppwer cable.

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          • #
            el gordo

            PF is talking about HVDC.

            ‘The challenge, however, is that to transmit via HVDC, two converter stations are needed. First, the AC power must be converted to DC to begin the transmission process, and then when it gets to the desired tie-in destination, the DC power must be converted back to AC to be utilized on the grid.’

            Powermag

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      • #
        Hanrahan

        A DC cable does not have inductive losses but it sure as ell has resistive losses. They generate heat so a given cross section of conductor cannot carry anything like the same current when bundled in a water/shark proof sheath as it can free suspended in the air with wind/convection cooling it.

        They are pulling your chain Fitz, talk is cheap.

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        • #
          Peter Fitzroy

          I’m reporting a story, if you look at the possible route, it is possible, given the longest underwater HVDC cable is over 500k.

          Not the point though, more and more investment is going to renewable power, and less to coal

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          • #
            Bill in Oz

            No, in reality the Greenists are trying to prevent investment in coal & gas.
            And trying to persuade all of us that renewables will save our butts
            But it is a fake dream that is physically impossible.

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          • #
            AndyG55

            “Australia’s resources exports delivered a record $248 billion in revenue in 2018..

            Coal was the highest earning export commodity for the year, accounting for $66 billion in export revenue

            All that investment in ERRATIC UNRELIABLES….

            What was the revenue from wind and solar, PF?

            Oh wait, they were a COST !!

            What happens when the subsidies are all gone. ;-)

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          • #
            AndyG55

            Well over 1000 NEW coal fired power stations being built around the world, little trollette.

            Massive investment in coal fired power.

            Australia would be stupid not to do the same,

            but unfortunately is gripped in some brain-hosed, anti-science, anti-CO2 trance/miasma that is stopping what NEEDS to be done from being done.

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  • #
    pat

    18 Jul: ReadingChronicle: Four protesters at AWE Burghfield nuclear weapons factory found guilty
    By Alex Seabrook
    FOUR protesters have been found guilty of aggravated trespass, while blockading the entrance to the nuclear weapons factory in Burghfield.
    The Atomic Weapons Establishment Burghfield, five miles southwest of Reading, makes nuclear warheads for the UK’s Trident missiles.
    Activists from Trident Ploughshares blockaded the entrance to the factory on October 24, last year. They locked themselves to cars and to each other to create barriers across the roads into the site.
    Four of them were found guilty last week of aggravated trespass at a trial in High Wycombe magistrates court…

    Each must now pay a £795 fine. Three received two years on conditional discharge, and Mr Bluemel received three years on conditional discharge.
    This means no further action is taken unless the protesters commit further offences within the stated time.
    Mr Bluemel said: “We have been committed to taking action against nuclear weapons. We believe they are illegal under international law.”…
    https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/17776747.four-protesters-awe-burghfield-nuclear-weapons-factory-found-guilty/

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  • #
    Phoenix44

    A well known phenomenon in economics – revealed preferences versus expressed preferences. You learn in economics to look at what people do, not at what they say they will do.

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    • #
      Hanrahan

      Increasingly we find this in political polling. The “shy conservative” is a real phenomenon.

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  • #
    pat

    don’t be fooled by the headline. still want trillions for REs:

    17 Jul: Financial Times: It is probably too late to stop dangerous global warming
    We must start planning to live with the consequences of climate change
    by Sam Arie (analyst at UBS)
    Few things should make you as optimistic — or as pessimistic — as the rise of renewable energy blah blah…
    Yet pessimism comes from the fact that all of this may not be enough.
    In our research at UBS, we estimate that to avoid a dangerous level of global warming, the world would need to commission an asset the size of New Jersey’s Ocean Wind every day for the next 30 years, without missing a day. Or put another way: we need to triple wind and solar construction overnight and sustain that new growth rate for decades, with no room for setbacks…

    So the irony remains: the most realistic pathway to mitigate global warming is to deploy existing renewable technologies at maximum scale, and minimum cost, although the world is most likely now too late and too indebted to get the job done on time.
    From this we reluctantly draw two contrasting conclusions: the first is that we may very well be on the cusp of a 20 or 30 year sustained bull market in renewable power — promising a fundamental reshaping of our energy industry; our natural landscape; and perhaps even similar in social importance to the rollout of clean water and sanitation in the 19th century, or mobile phones and the internet at the end of the 20th.

    But the second conclusion is that we will still most likely fail to reach “net zero” emissions by 2050
    That means a belated prevention strategy will not be enough. We must now begin in earnest on a plan for adaptation. We must not only ask how we can switch on more sources of clean, renewable power — but also how we can live with the consequences of the fossil fuel sources we are not yet willing to switch off.
    In short, we have started too late on the investments that could have allowed us to live without global warming. So we must now make a faster, better start on the investments that could enable us to live with it.
    https://www.ft.com/content/ef7b2fc8-a16f-11e9-a282-2df48f366f7d

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  • #
    pat

    not expecting anyone – including me – will listen to this, but just thought it was another example of academia’s CAGW madness:

    video from 26 June 2019 is a whopping 1hr40min2sec:

    16 Jul: Monthly Review (independent socialist magazine): Climate Change, Capitalism, Socialism: Fred Magdoff talks about Creating an Ecological Society
    Fred Magdoff is Professor Emeritus of Plant and Soil Science at the University of Vermont and the author of several books, among them, Creating an Ecological Society: Toward a Revolutionary Transformation (with Chris Williams).
    Last June, in a Town Meeting hosted by Channel 17, CCTV, via the Center for Media & Democracy, he spoke about what a just and ecologically sustainable society might look like – and if the current economic system can’t respond, what are the strategies to advance our struggle?
    https://monthlyreview.org/press/climate-change-capitalism-socialism-fred-magdoff-talks-about-creating-an-ecological-society/

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    • #
      pat

      speaking of academia, I turned on ABC Brisbane this afternoon – didn’t hear the 4RPH guy who said he would be on, but did hear Steve Austin (on a Friday afternoon when people want some traffic info and a bit of music or soft stories) interviewing Macquarie Uni lecturer, Vince Scappatura, who thinks we should drop the Australia/US alliance…but not all at once.said PM Morrison’s values are the same as Trump’s etc.
      Austin asked should we form an alliance with China instead, but the Prof didn’t say.

      21 Jun: JohnMenadue.com: The US Lobby and Australian Defence Policy, Vince Scappatura, Monash Publishing (a review)
      by MARK BEESON, University of Western Australia
      Given Australia’s comparatively benign security position, this willingness to unquestioningly offer support to the US, especially in conflicts of questionable strategic relevance and rationale, takes some explaining at any time. In the era of Donald J. Trump, it is even more remarkable. After all, Trump has demonstrated little reciprocal loyalty to long-standing allies such as Canada and the European Union, and systematically undermined the so-called ‘rules based international order’ to which Australian policymakers attach such importance…

      One of Scappatura’s most perceptive observations is that ‘the objective of the US lobby is not to hijack and transform Australia’s national security policy but to preserve and protect the status quo, instilling and reinforcing the alliance orthodoxy among the public and especially in the minds of the next generation of elite and alliance managers.’ It is this latter function, which the lobby does so effectively through the mainstream media, organisations such as the Lowy Institute and ASPI, and – current debates about the alleged impact of ‘left-wing academics’ notwithstanding – the nation’s universities. The discussion of the activities of a number of ANU academics is especially illuminating in this regard…

      There is some doubt about the future of the AALD when Scanlan departs the scene, and more might have been said about this perhaps. But if the alliance can survive what Martin Wolf (LINK Financial Times) has described as a process in which ‘the US has become a rogue superpower, hostile, among many other things, to the fundamental norms of a trading system based on multilateral agreement and binding rules [in which] US allies, too, are a target of the wave of bilateral bullying’, perhaps it can survive anything…

      And yet as Hugh White (LINK) has pointed out, the seemingly unthinkable problem as far as the US lobby is concerned, is what happens if we ‘find ourselves in an Asia dominated by China, where America plays little or no strategic role at all.’ Supporters of the alliance look especially ill-equipped to consider, let alone answer, such questions…
      https://johnmenadue.com/mark-beeson-the-us-lobby-and-australian-defence-policy-vince-scappatura-monash-publishing-a-review/

      The Prof had been in Brisbane for the following:

      Avid Reader: Vince Scappatura – The US Lobby and Australian Defence Policy
      Thursday 18 July 2019
      6:00 PM – 8:00 PM
      In store at Avid Reader Bookshop (West End, Brisbane)
      The US is commonly thought of as the world’s great purveyor of liberal values and the rule of law, and as a powerful friend indispensable to Australian security. In The US Lobby and Australian Defence Policy Vince Scappatura demonstrates how these conceptions are underpinned by the work of the Australian American Leadership Dialogue, Australia’s most important, private, pro-US lobby group. As the inner workings of this lobby are unveiled for the first time, Scappatura also discusses the considerable costs to Australia of its strong military ties to the US, draws into question notions of “benign” US power, and demonstrates that suggestions of the US keeping Australia safe from invasion are flatly wrong…
      Vince Scappatura teaches Politics and International Relations at Macquarie University…

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  • #
    Geoffrey Williams

    ‘The costs of renewables has been declining’ – fantasy?
    It’s a straight out lie!
    GeoffW

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  • #
    pat

    Taylor attacks ‘reckless’ state over renewables bill
    The Australian-18 hours ago

    19 Jul: AFR: ‘Reckless’ Vic renewables targets requires $370m grid upgrade
    by Angela Macdonald-Smith
    A proposed $370 million expansion of the electricity grid in western Victoria, which would unlock up to 6000 megawatts of new wind and solar farms, has taken a decisive step forward but has also unleashed a fresh attack from federal Energy Minister Angus Taylor on the state’s renewables targets.
    An analysis by the energy market operator found the project would deliver net benefits of $300 million, setting it on a path toward construction…READ ON
    https://www.afr.com/business/energy/reckless-vic-renewables-targets-requires-370m-grid-upgrade-20190718-p528g7

    19 Jul: Electrical Trades Union Press release: Angus Taylor reckless with facts, benefits and people’s lives by rubbishing much-needed grid upgrade
    Energy Minister Angus Taylor’s dismissal of the need to invest in a smarter, modern grid in Victoria is ill-informed and ignores the fact that upgrades are necessary after years of neglect by private operators.
    Electrical Trades Union National Secretary Allen Hicks accused Mr Taylor of being reckless with the facts about the need for network upgrades in Victoria, as well as the national grid, to avoid more risks to life, property and the economy.
    “The only thing reckless about the proposed upgrades to Victoria’s electrical grid are the anti-renewable energy minister Angus Taylor’s ill-informed comments,” he said…

    “Neglecting the electrical grid leads to devastating consequences. The people of Victoria know this, having suffered through the 2009 bushfires that claimed many lives and led to billions in damages…
    “Only the inept Morrison Government and its energy minister, Angus Taylor, would fail to see the benefit of this.
    “Angus Taylor has failed to get energy prices down and his reckless comments about a smart investment in a smarter grid only reinforce the fact that he and many of his Liberal Party colleagues are against anything to do with renewable energy.”
    https://www.etunational.asn.au/angus_taylor_reckless_with_facts_benefits_and_people_s_lives_by_rubbishing_much_needed_grid_upgrade

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  • #
    WXcycles

    If they’d asked, “Who’s willing to pay more for gender reassignment operations for a complete stranger?“, everyone would have been strongly in favor of paying through-the-nose to get more of that stuff. I’ve already removed the gender label from my birth certificate and changed my name to WXSheila.

    Waxing sucks.

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    • #
      Kinky Keith

      Sounds simple, doesn’t it: gender reassignment.

      As if after the “treatment” it will be full on M or F.

      Sadly it doesn’t work like that.

      KK

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  • #
    pat

    ABC nightlife Issue of the Day last night was Water/Drought. segment begins at 3hr 5min & ends 3hr 33min. ABC’s Philip Clark shoots down anyone who wants to see dams/pipelines built – he’s looked at that, doesn’t stack up economically. he says it’s problematic raising dam walls when one caller says that’s what is planned for his region of Northern NSW. someone mentions the climate deniers in Parliament. someone mentions population problems.

    ***at 3hr23min09sec: ABC’s Clark reads a listener’s idea: too many people. i agree. euthanise the baby-boomers; save money on the aged pension and house prices…
    Clark chuckles. says he knows it’s meant as a joke. wonders if the listener would go first. says it’s black humour, but does the listener have a point.

    one of the last callers hopes ABC lives forever. thanks Clark for such a useful forum, because there are so many ridiculous something-or-other around the planet these days. Clark says “thank you”.

    AUDIO: 18 Jul: ABC Nightlife with Philip Clark
    https://www.abc.net.au/radio/brisbane/programs/nightlife/nightlife/11301786

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    • #
      Bill in Oz

      Clarke is betraying Night Life
      It is no longer what it was
      Before he took over
      It’s real pity that former presenter retired
      After 17 years doing a great job

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  • #
    pat

    18 Jul: Reuters: UK police say they will prevent repeat of climate-change protest chaos
    by Matthew Green
    Climate activists Extinction Rebellion will not be allowed to repeat the kind of disruption they caused in London earlier this year when they hold fresh demonstrations in October, police said on Thursday…
    Police said they had been forced to divert officers from tackling crime and policing neighborhoods to deal with the protests – which including using a pink sailboat to block Oxford Circus, a major thoroughfare and shopping center.
    “We thought that April was wholly unacceptable,” Laurence Taylor, deputy assistant commissioner of London’s police, told reporters at the force’s New Scotland Yard headquarters.
    “It went well beyond the realm of what was reasonable and we would not tolerate that level of disruption again.”

    Extinction Rebellion says it wants to cause even greater disruption in October than it did in April…
    Laurence said the Metropolitan Police arrested more than 1,150 people during the April protests and around 180 have been charged so far…
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-climatechange/uk-police-vow-to-stop-repeat-of-climate-change-protest-chaos-idUSKCN1UD1LB

    Carbon Brief: …the Financial Times reports that XR is to launch a “tax rebellion”, calling on Londoners to withhold a fifth of monthly council tax payments. It says the group will ask the city’s residents to hold back 22% of their council tax – the average proportion that would go to the Greater London Authority – with the proceeds going to a “tax rebellion fund” aimed at achieving climate-related goals. The Times reports that a week-long XR protest outside the Scottish parliament last month cost almost £500,000 to police, and the Daily Telegraphreports that a man in Bristol was “unable to reach his dying father’s bedside before he passed away after an XR protest on the motorway left him stuck in traffic”.

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  • #
    pat

    18 Jul: Guardian: UK energy-saving efforts collapse after government subsidy cuts
    Only 10,000 upgrades such as loft insulation happen each month compared with 65,000 in 2014, report shows
    by Jillian Ambrose
    At this rate it would take 96 years for the government to reach its own targets to reduce fuel poverty, according to the charity National Energy Action…
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/18/uk-energy-saving-efforts-collapse-after-government-slashes-subsidies

    18 Jul: BusinessGreen: National Lottery launches £100m community climate action fund
    Activities funded will differ from place to place, but could include green energy, low emission transport, sustainable food and consumption, and environmental and wildlife regeneration, it explained…
    https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3079178/national-lottery-launches-gbp100m-community-climate-action-fund

    18 Jul: BBC: Should I offset my summer holiday flights?
    By Lucy Hooker
    The continuing campaign by teenage climate activist Greta Thunberg to get everyone to reduce their carbon emissions has prompted some soul-searching over when, and whether, it is OK to fly…
    In Scandinavia there is even a word for it – “flygskam” – flight shame…

    But in the end the quest for an easy conscience may turn out to be solved more easily simply by next year swapping your Flygskam for the new Scandinavian buzzword – tagskryt, because in the end “train brag” comes with a lot less baggage.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48657582

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  • #
    Tom O

    regarding the survey of Americans and their willingness – or not – to pay for 100% renewables. I find it absolutely appalling that 47% of the those polled are that ignorant. Mindless, flesh robots with oatmeal for brains. No offense meant to oatmeal in that comparison. What is most frightening is they will be the politically active portion of the population.

    I once knew a woman that went to her church daily and prayed to die. Have no idea how effective that was, but eventually her prayer was answered, if you will. Her mentality, however, lives on in that 47% of the US polled.

    20