JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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OK to kill endangered birds? Yes if you are a windfarm. Greens seem to be fine with that.

It’s one rule for you, and another for their friends. If a coal plant was wiping out thousands of birds and bats you can be sure Greenpeace would be launching a campaign. But when an industrial turbine with blade-tips travelling at 180mph does the killing, who cares?

The law for normals makes it expensive to kill birds and bats:

“Following the Deepwater Horizon oil spill in 2010, BP was fined $100 million for the damage it caused to bird populations in the area, both migratory and resident.  — AlaskaDispatch

“Exxon Mobil has agreed to pay $600,000 in penalties after approximately 85 migratory birds died of exposure to hydrocarbons at some of its natural gas facilities across the Midwest.  — NY Times

And it was going to get expensive for windfarms:

“Nov 22 2013 Duke Energy has agreed to pay a $1 million fine for killing 14 eagles and 149 other birds at two Wyoming wind farms. – audublog

That was the first time a windfarm got pinged. And it works out to be about $6000 a bird. Could get expensive, eh?

“The Fish and Wildlife Service estimated that 440,000 birds are killed by wind turbines every year in the U.S. However, that number is said to be a low-ball estimate by independent researchers. Each year 573,000 birds and 888,000 bats are killed by wind turbines in the U.S., according a study by K. Shawn Smallwood that was published in the Wildlife Society Bulletin. — dailycaller.com

Killing 400,000 birds at $6k each would make windpower in the US about $2 billion* more expensive, and less viable, than it already is. But industrial wind turbines are special friends of big-government and they were given licenses to kill “accidentally” for up to five years. But I guess the five year licenses were expiring, so the Obama administration reassessed the rule and now says it’s OK to kill them for 30 years.

“The Interior Department on Friday unveiled a final rule extending the length of permits that allow facilities to unintentionally kill protected bald and golden eagles.The regulations are a major victory for the wind and solar industry, among others, which will now be able to obtain permits for as long as 30 years — a sixfold increase from the previous five-year limit.

I like the newspeak from the Department of Bird-Killing explaining why 30 years of carcasses is a good thing:

“This change will facilitate the responsible development of renewable energy and other projects designed to operate for decades, while continuing to protect eagles consistent with our statutory mandates,” the department said in its regulation. -- The Hill

Five years of bird deaths was not responsible, but 30 years of deaths is? Anyone would protect eagles like this, of course.

In the end it amounts to another $20$2 billion dollar subsidy for renewables (and a lot more dead birds). But it’s all for the sake of the planet.

But there is a bigger issue at stake here. When is a law not a law? When the government can issue licenses to break it. Selective enforcement anyone?  Since Duke Energy may be one of the only wind operators to have to pay the bird-killing tithe, I have to ask, what did they do wrong? Perhaps they didn’t butter up the right people on the right day?

WWF would be outraged if coal fired plants got 30 year exemptions for busting bald eagles.

When is a dead bird a tragedy for an eco-green? Only when it scores a political point.

As usual, it’s not about the environment. It’s only power and politics.

More info:

 

h/t to Cliff. Thanks.

*$20bn corrected to $2bn. h/t Bulldust.

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OK to kill endangered birds? Yes if you are a windfarm. Greens seem to be fine with that., 10.0 out of 10 based on 3 ratings

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114 comments to OK to kill endangered birds? Yes if you are a windfarm. Greens seem to be fine with that.

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    Graeme No.3

    If only we could persuade the eco-greens to take up hang gliding (near wind farms).

    I see it as a solution to a number of problems.


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      Sean

      No we need to use their own Alinsky rules for commies against them – hold them accountable for this and start a class action suit against some wind subsidy farmers and the white house as their co-conspirators and accomplices.


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    Manfred

    But Jo, it’s all okay because

    …at a particularly poor site dedicated to promoting wind mills three key supporting “facts” are projected that inform us…

    Did you know that all over the world, a large number of wind energy projects that could save millions of tons of CO2 every year are right now being stalled or blocked because of misunderstandings or myths about wind energy. Act on Facts is a campaign designed to straighten out the facts and activate public support towards wind energy.

    Of the hightlighted three ‘facts’ promoted on the video at the site, all of which are classic clap-trap, the third is the most salient here:

    1. No evidence that low-frequency sounds cause health problems
    2. No connection between wind parks and property values
    3. Wind turbines kill far fewer birds than other man-made objects

    What we’re seeing is ‘justification’ masquerading as ‘fact’ provided by ‘tu quoque‘ arguement – ‘you also’ – meaning, because you do it, it’s okay for me. I suppose that’s also why the Greens inhibit back burning in their (previously discussed NSW) bush fire control policies; after all, homicide goes on elsewhere doesn’t it?

    Honestly, do people really suck this stuff up or is it confined soley to bureaucratic institutions, think tanks, local councils and universities?

    My acknowledgement and thanks to Safetyguy66 who presciently posted on this yesterday, December 12, 2013 at 12:21 pm #28, under the heading of a wordplay based on a quick glance of actonfacts.


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      Peter Miller

      The hypocrisy, waste and unreliability which defines today’s wind power industry will mystify our descendents. Bird and bat deaths just add to the long list of why these things should be totally banned, other than for use in remote communities.

      Fracking and nuclear are the clear and obvious solutions to the world’s energy problems. Both provide abundant and reliable energy. Wind power is almost the exact opposite. Moreover, nuclear and fracking both have the ability to provide cheap energy if only the bureaucrats, the environmental activists and the politicians would just get out of the way. Nuclear power is cheap if you build a series of power stations all to the same design – the French proved that. Allow and encourage fracking and gas prices fall, encouraging economic growth and industry – the US is proving that right now.

      If you designed a car the way wind power is designed, no one in his right mind would ever buy one. In terms of cost and efficiency, it would be like buying an East German Trabant for 2-3 times the price of a new BMW or Mercedes.

      Wind power would be a total non-starter had it not been for the overwhelming desire of populist politicians to interfere with free market mechanisms – history has demonstrated this to be an almost guaranteed way of ensuring economic disaster. As always, it is the taxpayers who have to pay the price for these populist politicians’ egos and blunders.


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    Jaymez

    Thanks for another great post Jo. You have done a remarkable job this year and I know it hasn’t been easy, but you have made progress and you have given us hope and strength. Long may you continue to do so.

    I know that contrary to the popular belief of global warmists, you are not drowning in fossil fuel funding, just in the warmist crap they continue to throw your way. This is essentially a full time job for you and you have a young family to raise and your future to think of. But I know the fight isn’t over.

    So as a thank you, and an encouragement to keep going, I have whacked something in your Tip Jar (at the top right of the page), and I hope other readers and supporters can take a moment to leave a little something for Christmas there for you and the family.

    It is a thank you, and an plead for you to keep doing what you are doing in the New Year.

    Thanks

    Jaymez

    PS: For other readers benefit, I haven’t been as active this years for reasons of travel and health, but I make sure I read Jo’s blog religiously. And as many comments as I can manage. There are some great contributors at this page.


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    Yonniestone

    This is where some people are willing to make excuses for the senseless death of anything to justify their cause, a means to an end if you will.
    You could argue that most activities humans do results in the death of many animals on this planet, food, machines we use to travel around in, wars, accidents or just plain stupidity, this covers us of course and while these facts seem tragic there are big differences in each one.


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      Yonniestone

      I just hit the wrong button and actually proved the point I was trying to make above, if the death of an animal is for food that is the pure nature of carbon based life forms, if it’s an accident that’s just nature as well, if it’s for the personal gain of an ideal or cause that doesn’t relate to the above then it’s part of human nature and there lies the conflict of whether a death can be justified.
      I have always found this human trait to be disgusting and believe it’s the cause for most of our problems, can it be reversed? maybe but not by using it in the guise of saving our planet while trying to justify the deaths caused by these false actions for the result of money and power.
      That is both evil and inhumane.


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        bobl

        Yonnie, I don’t think it’s so much that. Rather than many activities causing death (tends to be reasonably rare if you don’t count earthworms, flies, mosquitos and cockroaches) human activity more causes habitat modification resulting in the animal to not be born, most human endeavour doesn’t chop up, blind or burn animals like wind and concentrating solar, it just acts as birth control.

        Yet it’s this birth control that the greenies continually rail against. Of course when real animals are suffering real excruciating deaths from “Green” Technologies they are silent. And they are silent when the same “Green Technologies” are causing such pain an suffering to humans around the world, such as the 30,000 or so excess winter deaths in the UK last year to people who unwisely thought they’d rely (or were forced to rely) on Greens favoured technologies (Ie Blankets, or sleeping with the dog) to keep them warm last winter.

        The silence shows you it’s not about the environment, it shows you that Greenpeace, friends of the earth, WWF and so on are now political organisations that need their charity status reviewed urgently.

        I for one am really sad that there is no real Environmental groups unbeholden to particular political ideologies any more. It is a loss to humanity. True Environmentalism which sees how mankind can fit wisely into nature as an essential part of the mix is so rare these days. Farmers are the only true Environmentalists left.

        PS – I wonder why these people label themselves as Progressives, frankly over the last 6 years I have seen nothing except more restrictions and demands to devolve to a simpler time, doesn’t seem like progress to me.


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          Geoff Sherrington

          bobl,
          In support, here is what the IPCC draft for 2014 notes:
          There has been increased heat-related mortality and decreased cold-related mortality in some regions as a result of warming (medium confidence) [WGII SPM A-1]. Extreme heat events currently result in increases in mortality and morbidity in North America (very high confidence), with impacts that vary by age, location and socioeconomic factors (high confidence) [26.6.1.2]. In Europe, the summer 2003, which was the hottest summer in the last 500 years, caused 35,000 excess deaths [Table 23.1]. An extreme warm event occurred in Moscow during July and August 2010 in the hottest summer since 1500 with estimated 10,000 excess deaths [WGII Table 23.1].
          There does not seem to be mention of the number of cold-related deaths, or the effect of more costly energy for heating, though I might have missed it. They do concede that “There has been increased heat-related mortality and decreased cold-related mortality in some regions as a result of warming” and “Fewer cold extremes and reduced capacity of disease-carrying vectors will result in 14 modestly lower cold-related mortality and morbidity in some areas”, but these continue the hot-related bias.
          I really do hate these types of slimy, deceptive words that have numerous, probably intentional, errors of omission.
          ………………
          As well as changes to charity status that you note, I would like the Australian Government to review the credentials of those it pays to represent Australia at international climate fests. Increasingly I am feeling that I do not want the present mob to speak for me.


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          Yonniestone

          bobl yes that’s what I was trying to convey (poorly) the morality of our actions in the taking of another life in the context of hypocrisy in justification of doing so.

          As an aside recently I posted some photos here of Mt Buninyong a local place that I frequent for walking the dogs and Mrs Yonnie, the wildlife is quite active there and a bonus is the Wedge-tailed Eagles that fly high above looking for food, they are spectacular to watch and huge if your lucky enough to see one up close.
          Over the past 3 months a wind farm at nearby Mt Mercer is being built and you can see it from Mt Buninyong so I guess the Wedge-tails know to stay away right? I mean where is the justification in producing an impending threat to these magnificent birds other than a seriously flawed belief in a pseudo science.
          Even worse is the Wedge-tails have to negotiate 2 other large wind farms North of Ballarat on their way back to the Pyrenees Ranges, I wonder how many have been slaughtered in the name of insanity?.


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          Rick Bradford

          I wonder why these people label themselves as Progressives …

          For the same reason that North Korea calls itself the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea.


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  • #
    Ed Caryl

    When will Duke Energy get their money back?


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    john robertson

    When it comes to parasitic do-gooders, there is no limit to their hypocrisy.
    Ends justifies the means and unintended consequences galore.
    Of course observing these evil results of utopian theories, is racist, sexist or just criticizing without purpose.
    Liberalism/progressivism as our greens and socialists disguise themselves, is best seen as a mental disorder.
    We are saving the environment .?? By killing all Gods creatures?
    Saving the world by deliberately targeting the worlds poor brown people?
    Anti-humanist, leaf lickers.
    As astounding as carbon based life forms, supposedly intelligent, bleating on about banning carbon from their world.
    I believe we need to set aside a reserve, a wild land berit of any of the energy source and technologies these people protest, where we can let them live the foul fantasy they want to impose on all.
    Canada might be persuaded to allow Coats Island in Hudson Bay as the winter retreat for the delusional.
    As a benefit the polar bears,much loved by these same people, will mingle with them accelerating their goal of becoming one with nature.


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      bobl

      No, I think the penal colony should be an uninhabited pristine wilderness. Perhaps Australia can take the lead and donate Heard Island. It’s an untamed wilderness that just screams out for greenie stewardship. There is no bothersome infrastructure there and the greenies can spend their days looking after the glacier and measuring the temperature. It’s a nice cool climate so the greenies won’t need to worry about global warming until well after the rest of us have died out.


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        Olaf Koenders

        Sounds nice BobL. Maybe we can rule that they leave it pristine and make their sleeping bags out of only a limited number of leaves. Place all the restrictions on them that they wish upon us and see how long they survive their precious “going back to nature”.

        Incidentally, I pranged my flying saucer at Area 51 a while back. Someone PLEASE tell me how the hell I can get off this planet populated by the insipid and mentally ill enviro’s? Things were a lot better in 1947..


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        Graeme No.3

        bobl;
        Heard Island is very remote, swept by howling winds so suitable for wind turbines. It is untouched and geologically active, so great place for geothermal energy. So far it sounds like an ideal place for greenies like Flannery.

        There are certain caveats; the geo-activity spreads to volcanoes and earthquakes. The small flat areas are occupied seasonally by elephant seals, and in defending their harems they can be a bit aggressive. They also spread a certain aroma. Fortunately the strong winds and abundant rainfall (or snow) help reduce that. The temperature doesn’t get much below freezing and while it is warmer in summer the breezes make it seem much cooler than the 5℃ sometimes reported.

        Then the island is also claimed by France. So far there is a diplomatic standoff…neither side wants to make a renewed claim in case the other gives in and dumps it on them.

        All in all an inspired choice.


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      Peter Miller

      May I suggest West Falkland, the only possible source of domestic energy there is wind power and the wind blows all the time there.


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      Rereke Whakaaro

      Pitcairn Island would be another suitable place. I know they currently have vacancies, and all of the natives speak English. And hey, it is a Pacific Island, what is not to like?


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    Eugene WR Gallun

    O Giant windmills! Those bladed windmills!
    Defenders of the beauty of the high hills!
    Thumping all the birds! Crumping all the bats!
    And purring all the while
    Like a million happy cats!

    Eugene WR Gallun


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    Roy Hogue

    Only one word describes this, HYPOCRISY.

    They want their cake and eat it too. And that hasn’t worked since Adam met Eve and they ran off to eat apples together. They’re a bunch of fruitcakes. :-(


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    tom0mason

    Not content with just chopping up the bird life, put a few solar panels along the bird’s migratory flight path and you can fry them too.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/10/bird-feathers-singed-solar-power/3491617/#

    The greenies must really hate birds of all kinds.
    I wonder how upset the green party folk would be if we called them bird-killers?


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      tom0mason

      Also noted here -
      http://www.kcet.org/news/rewire/solar/water-birds-turning-up-dead-at-solar-projects-in-desert.html

      Are these birds getting killed or injured -

      - Genesis, March 13, lesser goldfinch
      - Genesis, March 19, lesser goldfinch
      - Genesis, March 28, bufflehead* found between mirrors
      - Desert Sunlight, April 3 eared grebe*
      - Desert Sunlight, April 15 surf scoter*
      - Genesis, April 17, black‐throated grey warbler
      - Genesis, April 17, house wren
      - Genesis, April 17, orange‐crowned warbler
      - Desert Sunlight, April 18 great-tailed grackle
      - Desert Sunlight, Week of April 21 red breasted merganser* found live on site, died in transport prior to release.
      - Genesis, April 25, barn owl injured, taken to rehab
      - Genesis, May 1, pied-billed grebe* (in evap pond netting)
      - Genesis, May 1, eared grebe* injured, to rehab
      - Desert Sunlight, May 6 double crested cormorant*
      - Desert Sunlight, May 8 Yuma clapper rail*
      - Genesis, May 8, Wilson’s warbler (poss. line strike)
      - Genesis, May 14, yellow‐headed blackbird* injured, taken to rehab
      - Genesis, May 15, hermit thrush (bulldozer)
      - Genesis, May 16, Wilson’s warbler
      - Genesis, May 16, Townsends warbler
      - Genesis, May 16, unidentified bird
      - Genesis, May 22, western grebe* injured, taken to rehab
      - Genesis, May 22, yellow warbler
      - Genesis, May 23, warbler, species unknown
      - Genesis, May 24, unidentified sparrow
      - Genesis, May 30, American coot*
      - Desert Sunlight, June 4 common loon*
      - Desert Sunlight, June 5 eared grebe*
      - Desert Sunlight, June 5 western grebe*
      - Desert Sunlight, June 5 western grebe* live, released after consultation.
      - Desert Sunlight, June 6 American coot*
      - Desert Sunlight, June 6 double crested cormorant*
      - Desert Sunlight, June 9 Common raven
      - Genesis, June 10, brown pelican* injured, sent to rehab
      - Desert Sunlight, June 19 hummingbird (species not mentioned)
      - Genesis, July 10, brown pelican*
      - Desert Sunlight, July 10 brown pelican*
      - Desert Sunlight, July 11 brown pelican*
      - Desert Sunlight, July 13 brown pelican*
      - Desert Sunlight, July 15 black-crowned night heron*


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      • #
        bobl

        Remembering that within the beam angle the light intensity is multiplied by the number of reflectors, the intensity is well above eye safety. How many birds make it through but are partially or permanently blinded? Animals weakened like this do not last long. Looking into a 1000 mirror array would be like looking directly at 1000 suns ( well maybe 950 suns due to reflection loss) but you get my point.


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  • #
    davefromweewaa

    “Five years of bird deaths was not responsible, but thirty years is?”
    Nailed it Jo! More strength to your arm.


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    tom0mason

    Forbes has nice piece on this -

    President Obama Will Sacrifice Bald Eagles To Fight Global Warming

    The Obama administration announced last Friday that it will grant industrial wind farm operators 30-year permits to kill legally protected bald eagles and golden eagles without fear of legal repercussions. U.S. wind turbines already kill 1.4 million birds and bats each year, including many endangered, threatened and protected species such as California condors, bald eagles and Indiana bats.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2013/12/11/president-obama-will-sacrifice-bald-eagles-to-fight-global-warming/


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  • #
    RoHa

    Americans call wind turbines”bird blenders”.

    Mmmmm – blended birds. [Drool]


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  • #

    O/T but a good story of how a single determined person can make a difference, even against the ex-PM of Oz.

    http://thepointman.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/who-is-michael-smith/

    Pointman


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    AndyG55

    Write to WWF and Greenpeace… Ask them what they are planning to do about this wanton destruction !!


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  • #

    Since the whole exercise seems aimed at making the US more dependent on gas, why not skip the whirlygigs and the bird-killings and the ridge clearing and the endless cabling…and just pass a law making gas the compulsory power source? At least it’s a fossil fuel, so it kinda works okay. (Not as good as Sydney-Gunnedah Basin Black – but what is?)

    Anything is better than wind farms, and since they are just the hyper-expensive green wrapping for gas power, why not just skip the wrapping? It would be a win-win. A win for Boone Pickens and a win for Shell.


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    ExWarmist

    The way that Environmentalism has been co-opted and twisted to support political, and financial agendas is appalling.

    (Some would say that it has ever been thus…)

    The basic message of sensible environmentalism that we should be good stewards of the planet, and not foul our own nest is too my mind – correct.

    The problems seem to arise as to the definitions of what a responsible steward should/should not do, and what is meant by Foul.


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    pat

    THE END:

    13 Dec: Bloomberg: Arne Delfs: Merkel Embraces Coal as Rookie Lawmaker Makes Mark on Policy
    Freese, a Social Democrat former mining-union executive, won a parliamentary seat on Sept. 22, even as Merkel’s bloc defeated his party in national elections. As the two sides negotiated a coalition government, he inserted a commitment to use lignite, one of the most polluting forms of coal, to bridge the gap in Germany’s energy mix and rein in the second-highest electricity prices in the European Union after Denmark’s.
    “This isn’t just about the environment, this is about the money” Germans pay for electricity, Freese, 62, said in an interview on Dec. 2. “We’ve got the most modern coal plants in the world. Brown coal lets us produce comparatively cheap and climate-friendly electricity.” His contribution, he says, was to add “precision” to the coalition’s coal policy…
    To get there, Freese, who sits on the supervisory board of the German unit of Swedish state-owned utility Vattenfall AB, allied with two Social Democrat state leaders and overcame renewable-energy activists in his party during five weeks of bargaining over the agenda for Germany’s next government…
    Her (Merkel’s) predicament is to square the nuclear exit with her campaign promise to reduce aid for renewable energy that has helped drive up power prices for consumers and industry…
    The two sides also agreed to scale back subsidies for offshore wind power…
    The power bill for the average German home has increased 14 percent since 2011, driven partly by a fee to finance the country’s renewable energy expansion that rose 49 percent since then.
    More than 2 1/2 years later, the coalition pact is “the negation of the energy shift,” Sylvia Kotting-Uhl, the opposition Green party’s nuclear-energy spokeswoman, said in an interview. “They simply want to keep burning low-cost coal.”…
    “We welcome the clear commitment to fossil-fired power plants in the coalition contract,” Mueller, the head of the BDEW lobby that represents EON, Vattenfall, RWE and EnBW Energie Baden-Wuerttemberg AG (EBK), told reporters in Berlin yesterday. Gas and coal plants are “necessary to balance out the renewable energies and their fluctuating generation.” …
    “I’m not doing this for the money,” Freese said. “I use my influence for the good of the workers.”
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-11/merkel-embraces-coal-as-rookie-spd-lawmaker-makes-mark-on-policy.html


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    Truthseeker

    Some of the huge issues with Wind power are coming to light in the MSM …

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1361316/250bn-wind-power-industry-greatest-scam-age.html

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1350811/In-China-true-cost-Britains-clean-green-wind-power-experiment-Pollution-disastrous-scale.html

    Also taking energy out of the wind affects weather patterns, or doesn’t that climate change count?

    Wind Power = Green hypocrisy.


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    Manfred

    OK to kill endangered birds? Yes if you are a windfarm. Greens seem to be fine with that.

    Yes, the Green hypocrisy is more than alive and well, it is a toxic moral pestilence that has infected Google, which seems to be ‘fine’ with windmills —

    Google have this month (July 2013) bought the entire output of a Swedish Wind Farm for the next ten years.

    And how exactly does Google guarantee its stability of power supply?
    No surprises here, the hypocrisy like the reliable base load supply is entrenched, installed and functional.

    Luckily for Google, the electricity powering their data centre will be from the grid. If there was a problem at the wind farm the actual effect on the running of the data centre would be negligible, this is because the company have purchased certificates of origin for the energy produced by the wind farm – essentially meaning they can consume an equivalent amount of energy from the Scandinavian grid – whether that energy is from renewable or non-renewable sources.

    One is truly at a loss for words.


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    • #
      bobl

      Like our friends Margot and BA-4 when there is no renewable energy to go around then Google should be progressively shut down so they can experience the glory of renewable power in full appreciation. I’ll take it upon myself to arrange it for them (for a small stipend).


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    • #

      Luckily for Google, the electricity powering their data centre will be from the grid.

      Right there ….. from the grid ….. is where wind and solar can get away with what they do get away with.

      Because ALL power is supplied to the grid, and the grid supplies power to everyone 100% of the time, (and perish the entity, and its responsible Minister, that does not supply every consumer 100% of the time) then this is the reason that those renewable supporters can be so smug, without having the faintest idea of the reality.

      Because ALL power comes from the grid, no one ever knows when wind, or solar, is supplying, so because power is always there, it seems that just because it is basically a power plant, then it actually is part of the overall mix which supplies power all the time.

      This is most highlighted with rooftop solar, and I know I always bang on about that, but how often have you seen, heard or read supporters who say that they generate exactly what they use in their homes.

      It seems that way, and that’s the carrot used by installing Companies for those units which are sold.

      True, the residence may consume (the average) 20KWH per day, and the installation may actually generate that average 20KWH per day, but that’s not the truth of the matter.

      On average, a typical residence will consume one third of its power during daylight hours, and two thirds after daylight hours. So, that’s around 6.6KWH that the residence will consume during the day. The remaining 13.3KWH is consumed after hours, the peak (Residential) consumption period. So, if a residence has a 20KWH unit installed, then it will consume 6.6KWH during daylight hours and the remaining 13.4KWH is fed back to the grid.

      FED BACK TO THE GRID.

      Misleading, because that power is SOLD by the residence’s owner back to the grid. The residence does not own that power any more. They have sold it at a huge profit. (that FIT carrot)

      So, the residence has consumed one third of the power it has generated.

      The remaining two thirds of the power which the residence consumes is FROM the grid. That power has to be generated by the usual traditional sources, power which the residence then consumes.

      The grid is not the storage facility for that two thirds of after hours power the residence consumes, and anyway, the residence has sold its excess power. It’s now gone.

      If they wish to generate all that power, and then consume it for themselves all the time, then be honest about. Purchase the storage facility, the huge battery banks required, which are charged by that excess power generated during the daylight hours, and then those batteries supply the power to drive the Inverter after hours.

      However, if honesty in all this was the main thing, then not one of those rooftop solar power units would be installed.

      Have a look at these two links.

      Grid Connected Installations

      Stand Alone Installations

      Note the price of a grid connected (average) 20KWH unit, 22 panels and 5KW (not the rebated cost but the total shown in the third column there) a cost of $25,006. Again, be aware that this is theoretical generation based on a Capacity Factor of 16.6%, and rooftop solar power is barely averaging 12.5% maximum, but hey I can use their inflated figures because even that, when explained is still pretty miserable.

      Note now the cost of the Stand alone (average) 20KWH unit, 24 panels and 5.4KW, $72,210 a full $47,000 more costly than the grid connected unit.

      The extra cost is for the CORRECTLY designed battery bank for a unit this size. That battery bank has a life span of 5 to 7 years, so that original outlay is now added to with the extra cost of between 3 and 5 replacement battery banks , with batteries only having a lifespan of 5 to 7 years, so now we have an added cost of $150,000 to $250,000.

      Now see why no stand alone units would be sold.

      You can have the cost of the panels dramatically reduce in price, but batteries are not decreasing in price all that much, if at all, and please don’t tell me technology will advance that far that batteries will reduce to a fraction of their current cost.

      So now, you have a total lifetime outlay for a stand alone unit of around a (minimum) $220,000 plus new Inverters, because no matter how good they are, Inverters will not last the (theoretical) 25 year life span of the panels, running 24/7/365.

      See now why grid connection is so attractive, sold with the false belief that they will generate what the residence actually consumes.

      The GRID is why renewables, all of them survive, because people EXPECT their electrical power to be there ALL the time, and the perception is that while ever power is there, then renewables are in fact supplying that power.

      Take away the constant suppliers, coal fired power, and see what happens then.

      THAT is why renewable supporters just mindlessly believe that coal fired power plants should be closed down, because renewables are taking over.

      They aren’t and they NEVER will.

      Wind – 2.5%

      All Solar power – Less than 1%

      The GRID. Everything depends upon the grid.

      Tony.


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        Graeme No.3

        Tony,
        I’ve come to the conclusion that the average greenie believes in the BIG POND of electricity; i.e. it doesn’t matter how much (or how little), or when it is made, it all goes into a big pond and comes out that hole in the wall whenever needed. The idea of balancing the grid at all times is quite beyond them.

        When I tried to explain to one greenie, who had been going on about hydrogen (generated “renewably” of course) about costs building up with each inefficiency and energy density, her eyes glazed over and she said “if we believed in it, it would happen”. Sort of “wish upon a star” approach.

        Verily, verily, I say unto you, greenie economics is based on fairies leaving big bags of money at the bottom of the garden.


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          Graeme No.3, you say here:

          …..eyes glazed over and she said “if we believed in it, it would happen”. Sort of “wish upon a star” approach.

          I’ve lost count of the number of times how literally everyone just automatically assumes that battery technology will improve to the point that they will have literally endless capacity and become enormously cheaper than they are now.

          That endless storage capacity is just around the magic corner.

          It’s also the case where some of them even suggest that pumped hydro can be used as endless storage, as if, you know, all these new dams will just appear out of nowhere, let alone actually be approved in this day and age.

          Tony.


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            bobl

            Molten salt is probably the only viable small scale storage, but 900 degree molten salt has it problems. You could do it, but you’d need to vastly change the grid topology, veeeery expensive.


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        OK then, renewables supply power to the grids, the local grids as part of the overall grid.

        There’s grumbling about how the cost per unit for electricity is rising in Queensland, and that State is not Robinson Crusoe.

        An earlier article mentioned how rooftop solar power is the fourth largest power plant in Queensland with 1GW (1000MW) of total Capacity. That is based upon Nameplate Capacity only, because when the Capacity Factor is taken into account (12.5% Theoretical) that then comes down to 125MW, which is nowhere near the fourth largest power plant.

        There are now 500,000 rooftop solar installations in Queensland alone, and the average size for all those installations is just a tick over 2KW.

        So then, now go to the first of those links I have above, for grid connected units.

        Note the rebate for 2KW units, $2,678. That cost is recovered from the sale of electricity to all consumers in the higher cost per unit of electricity.

        You may not think of it as much, but that’s an average of $2,678 for 500,000 installations, or $1.339 BILLION.

        See now how renewable power increases the cost of electricity.

        The FIT isn’t all that much, considering millions compared to Billions is not all that much.

        So then, here we have 500,000 installations, so how much power is actually fed back to the grids?

        The average size for those installations is 2KW, and units that size generate 8.1KWH of power per day.

        I mentioned above that the average residence consumes 6.3KWH of power per day, so on average then, 2KWH (I’ll be generous) is fed back to grids every day (on average), so with 500,000 Installations in Queensland, then a total of 1,000,000KWH (1GWH) is fed back to the grids each day.

        One GigaWattHour.

        Man, that’s a huge amount of power delivered back to grids during daylight hours.

        Why, that’s the same power that Bayswater, with all 4 units in operation delivers to the grid in, umm, 23 Minutes.

        Now try and tell me that rooftop solar power is making a difference.

        Tony.


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    pat

    12 Dec: Belfast Telegraph: Linda Stewart: Wind farms: Map reveals how they’ve swarmed across Northern Ireland in 13 years
    This is the shocking map that shows the relentless spread of wind turbines across Northern Ireland’s countryside…
    In the last 13 years an astonishing 2,428 wind power projects have been given the green light from planners in Northern Ireland, leaving some of our most beautiful landscapes crowded with wind turbines.
    And a further 849 renewable energy applications are currently waiting for a decision…
    Spokesman Owen McMullan (Windwatch) points out that over £140m has been paid out in subsidies to the renewable sector in the last three years in Northern Ireland through the Renewables Obligation.
    “We were led to believe this would reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, but nobody in Northern Ireland is getting cheaper electricity. This is all a con job,” he said.
    “In some council areas there has been a 100% success rate for planning approvals for wind turbines in recent years. We believe this a rubber-stamping exercise and proper care and attention is not being adhered to.”
    Planning Service figures showed an overall 89% success rate for wind turbine planning applications for 2012-13, with 106 out of 108 applications in Co Fermanagh given the green light (98%) and 88 out of 92 in Omagh council area (96%)…
    Mr McMullan says wind power is exacting a heavy cost through divisions in rural communities, negative impacts on countryside, especially Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty, loss of jobs, decrease in tourism figures, environmental damage, increasing fuel bills and health concerns.
    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/wind-farms-map-reveals-how-theyve-swarmed-across-northern-ireland-in-13-years-29831716.html#idc-cover


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    It is not just the rare raptors that are being killed. A few months ago on the Isle of Harris there was sighted a White Throated Needletail. “Twitchers” (bird-spotters) rushed to the remote Scottish Isle to see for themselves a bird sighted for only the eighth time in Britain in 170 years. On the third day around 40 witnessed the bird (the world’s fastest) fly straight into a wind turbine, being instantly killed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10146135/Birdwatchers-see-rare-swift-killed-by-wind-turbine.html
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100223770/this-bird-rare-enough-for-you-greenies/


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    pat

    beyond zero carbon? or reality?

    12 Dec: Bloomberg: Joe Carroll: North American Shale to Exceed Most OPEC Nations’ Output
    Oil production from North American shale fields will outpace every member of OPEC except Saudi Arabia within two years, according to Exxon Mobil Corp. (XOM), the world’s biggest energy company by market value.
    Globally, crude output from shale and similar rock formations that require intensive drilling techniques will increase 11-fold by the end of 2040, led by explorers in the U.S., Canada and Russia, Exxon said today in its annual long-term forecast for global energy.
    Burgeoning U.S. production in shale hotspots such as North Dakota and Texas will soon overwhelm the capacity of domestic refineries and prompt the federal government to reconsider its restrictions on crude exports, said Kenneth Cohen, the vice president who oversees Exxon’s lobbying efforts…
    “The reality is the market has moved from an era of scarcity to an era of abundance — but we’re still saddled with statutes and regulations stuck in a mindset of scarcity,” Cohen said in a telephone interview. “The principle of free trade should underpin not just blueberries and corn, but energy products as well.” …
    Crude extracted from beneath the oceans will expand 150 percent by 2040, with production from oil-sands deposits quadrupling in that period, said Exxon, which used a base year of 2010 in its calculations…
    Even with competition from North American shale sources, the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries will increase its share of the world oil market to 45 percent by 2040 from about 40 percent in 2010, according to Exxon’s report…
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-12/north-american-shale-to-exceed-most-opec-nations-output.html


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    pat

    12 Dec: Bloomberg: Allesandro Vitelli: UN Carbon Plan Won’t Reverse 99% Price Decline, New Energy Says
    About 4 million CERs have been voluntarily canceled by nations and companies, UN data show, compared with more than 1.4 billion created since 2005, according to New Energy Finance.
    Prices for the credits generated by projects that cut emissions in developing countries under the UN’s Clean Development Mechanism plunged as much as 99 percent since 2008 as the global economic slowdown cut demand. Approval of CDM projects in 2013 has dropped 93 percent from a year earlier, UN data show, as the credit surplus discourages new investment…
    Prices for the offsets tumbled to as low as 20 euro cents ($0.28) a metric ton in April from a peak of 23.38 euros in July 2008. The contracts traded today at 38 cents a ton on London’s ICE Futures Europe exchange…
    Supply of CERs may be as little as 1 billion tons through 2020, New Energy Finance said in October. Many CERs may remain unissued as prices are currently below cost.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-12/un-carbon-plan-won-t-reverse-99-price-decline-new-energy-says.html


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    u.k.(us)

    Ya know, the birds will survive this latest onslaught.
    They have been doing it for millions of years.
    I do worry about us newcomers.


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      So human beings have no effect on the flora and fauna?
      If wind turbines randomly killed birds regardless of species, then they would have no significant impact. Further that impact would certainly be behind the impacts of transportation, logging or invasive animal species on remote islands (e.g. the dodo).
      Fact is, wind turbines disproportionately impact on some on the rarest and mightiest birds on the planet – in particular the soaring eagles.


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    Bulldust

    Just a quick query… $6k per bird at 400,000 killed is surely $2.4 billion? Where does the $20 billion come from?


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    Bulldust

    Dropping this O/T comment in here as insurance against ABC mods – someone made the comment that the ABC bends over backwards to be balanced on this thread, and I couldn’t resist:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-13/cassidy-tea-party/5152016

    Oh a good belly-laugh … thank you mate. If you were a climate sceptic such as myself and subject to many, many ABC “moderations” you would not be of the view that the ABC is balanced.

    The onky reason this comment will get up is that I will copy it to a sceptic blog. If I don’t make that promise, it’s odds on the post gets “moderated.”

    In an echo chamber it is easy to think the views presented are balanced. Yes, the ABC tosses in the odd Peter Reith post here and there, but that is swamped by the deluge of Labor to Green slanted postings. Then we look at the composition of panels on shows like Q&A and you have to laugh at the ABC Charter for balance.

    Then the rampant indignation when top secret ABC salaries were leaked, versus the ABC acting as a megaphone on the Indonesian spying story. Hypocrisy is a strong suit at the ABC … balance… ummmm… not so much.

    Dang typos – I should proof /sigh


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    bobl

    Jo

    Michael Smith has posted This note about the Attorney generals enquiry in to how individual freedoms are restricted by commonwealth legislative law.

    REVIEW OF COMMONWEALTH LAWS FOR CONSISTENCY WITH TRADITIONAL RIGHTS, FREEDOMS AND PRIVILEGES

    Folks, this is really important, at the moment this seems to be an internal review. I have written to the Attorney General and suggested that this be public, and that it include the option of creating a Bill of rights that protects the interests of the individual against government power. (Overseas readers will be interested to know that the Australian Constitution deals more with how Australia separated from Britain, and the inheritance of British statute than it does the protections of the citizenry… a Bill of Rights has been opposed by both side of politics because it limits the power of the government to subjugate the population)

    We can begin to change that, in my letter to the Attorney General in part I said

    I dont think this important work should be restricted to the commonwealth government, its too important. The way this should be addressed is through a bill of rights addressing the limitations of the state in attacking the rights and privileges of the individual. In particular addressing

    The right to live (obvious, but needs to be said)
    The right of Free Speech
    The right to fair trial by ones peers
    The right to private property (and freedom from interference in its management), outlawing warrantless entry except in the most exceptional circumstance, and the right to restrict access (ie to mining companies) except on just terms.
    The right to privacy
    The right to safety, ie right to refuse a lawful direction if the outcome is unsafe for the citizen
    The right to earn a living – restrictions of licenses to work to those necessary for public safety and at cost recovery only (no profiteering from licenses to work)
    The right to clean food and water – which should lay out the right to capture ones own water on ones own lands, the right to cultivate ones own food, the right to build shelter, and the right to generate ones own energy – These derive from the right to life
    The right to just compensation when a right or traditional resource has been removed by force of government, eg resumption of land, or for example changes to water rights.

    I implore all Jo’s readers to contact their member, supporting this review and requesting that the government make it a public enquiry with consideration of an overarching bill of rights to protect the Australian People, not just rolling back decades of overreach, but enhancing the public’s protection against that overreach being reimposed through a Bill of Rights.

    Jo, I’d appreciate elevation to a Post if possible, help me please, those in support please click green thumb, those opposed red thumb


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    bobl

    PS send my post far and wide, if I can get every single Australian (Lib/Lab/Green) to consider how government overreach affects them and have them send their thoughts to the enquiry then I will have succeeded. Government for the people, all of them, including the majority.


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    pat

    has anyone posted this hilarious youtube video before?
    the earth’s rotation is anti-clockwise! symbolic or what?

    4:05 Youtube: Climate change the state of the science (data visualization) .
    International Geosphere-Biosphere Programme
    Published on Nov 19, 2013
    Produced by the International Geosphere-Biosphere Programme and Globaia and funded by the UN Foundation.
    The data visualization summarises and visualizes several of the most significant statements in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s (IPCC) recent Fifth Assessment Report, (Working Group I summary for policymakers, the Physical Science Basis). In 2014, IPCC will publish summaries concerning societal impacts, mitigation and adaptation.
    The statements and facts presented are derived from the IPCC summary for policymakers…

    Its latest report states it is extremely likely humans…
    it is likely Earth will cross the target…
    This could happen…
    is as likely as not…
    It is very likely heatwaves…
    It is likely sea ice …
    It is very likely sea-level…
    their footprint likely to grow…
    downpours likely to intensify…
    The full consequences of all these changes on the Earth system are unknown…
    For a likely chance of achieving the two-degree target, societies can emit another 250 billion tonnes of carbon…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EWOrZQ3L-c


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    jorgekafkazar

    “This change will facilitate the responsible development of renewable energy and other projects designed to operate for decades, while continuing to pretend to protect eagles consistent with our statutory mandates,”

    More in line with the facts.


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    bobl

    OOps wrong site


    [Repeat comment removed Bob. No worries - Jo]


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    If you assume that without wind turbines the eco-system will boil into vapour, then you can justify the bird slaughter with the idea that it is the lesser of two evils.

    When it finally becomes clear that the whole thing was a big lie, some of the genuine bird lovers who waved through turbines, sincerely believing it was the only hope for long term survival of the planet, will need psychiatric help.


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    michael hammer

    off topic but something people might like to consider

    1 Earth can only warm if the rate of incoming energy exceeds the rate of outgoing energy

    2 This can happen if the incoming energy increases or outgoing energy decreases or of course both

    3 The AGW theory claims earth is warming because the outgoing energy is decreasing due to the additional green house effect from rising CO2

    4 The last 30 years of measurements of Earth’s outgoing longwave radiation (OLR) or the rate at which earth is losing energy as published by NOAA shows OLR has been increasing and has increased by 2.5 watts/sqM between 1980 and 2010

    Surely this by itself utterly disproves the theory of AGW does it not? Rising CO2 might be retaining more heat but something else is exertng an even more powerful force in the opposite direction.


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    PeterFitzroy

    So folling this logic, all the birds killed by traffic on the roads, should attract the same fines


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    Owen Morgan

    In Britain, the inaccurately named Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (RSPB) is notorious for its refusal to hold the windfarms to account for the destruction of birdlife. It tends to weasel: Goldfinches don’t seem that affected. Of course, birds that largely stick to an altitude of less than fifty feet and live in parks and don’t migrate probably do have less chance of being introduced to the Great-Goldfinch-in-the-Sky by the bird-choppers.

    If a traditional land-owner does anything to impair the quality of life for an eagle in Britain, the RSPB wants him/her sent to the Tower forthwith. Eagles (and Ospreys and Hen Harriers) are overwhelmingly Scottish birds in Britain, so the RSPB has shamelessly played to the Caledonian-Commie theme of bashing up the lairds over even the slightest suspicion of trapping, or poisoning (and I’m not condoning those – I really do love birds). On the other hand, a laird who starts to construct wind-farms like a wild-eyed true-believer will gain a trillion indulgences and absolution from the RSPB.

    The RSPB ought to be the Raptorphobic Sect for the Prevention of Birds.


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      diogenese2

      As I previously blogged, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds is proposing to host a wind turbine at their headquarters, Sandy Lodge, Sandy, Bedordshire UK. The statement says ” we have completed our environmental assessment and are satisfied that Sandy Ridge is a suitable place for a single turbine”. Sandy Ridge is a sandstone outcrop, visible for miles across the Bedfordshire plain and a local beauty spot. Sandy Ridge is a bird sanctuary.
      Look up their website for their “defence” of their proposal.


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        papertiger

        I would petition to have the windmill posted n their parking lot, next to the coffee hut. So these latte sipping pinheads can play dodge the bird carcass, with their Bentleys, and on their coffeebreak.


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          Owen Morgan

          The “funny” thing is that, at one RSPB reserve (still chopper-free, luckily for the Peregrine Falcons and the Marsh Harriers), they have an electronic display to proclaim how much electricity is generated by their solar panels. I’ve never seen it display anything north of fifty watts, probably not enough to power the display.

          [Sharp-eyed readers, kind enough to have read earlier posts of mine, may recall that I have mentioned this display before. I'd just say that the display was there in 2009, displaying 50W, and it hasn't changed since. On the plus-side, the cafe, where it's hanged, is really nice - great cake, even for people like me, who don't usually like cake.]

          If you’re a bird-watcher in North Lancashire, or South Cumbria, visit Leighton Moss. Just don’t join the Bird Prevention League, while you’re there. There clearly is a way to donate to the maintenance of a bird-watching site, which doesn’t involve providing pounds for the RSPB. Every bench and hide is paid for by local donations.

          Incidentally, the RSPB’s enthusiasm for “renewables”, put into practice, would be the end of Britain’s archetypal bird reserve, Slimbridge, which would be inundated by any “renewable solution” in the Severn estuary. Similar developments would also kill the Wildfowl Trust’s place at Martin Mere (near Liverpool, between the Mersey and Ribble estuaries) and the one at Caerlaverock, near Dumfries, north of the Solway Firth. More to the point, they’d kill the birds which winter there. There surely couldn’t be any hint of competition here, could there? (Just wondering, because Caerlaverock and Martin Mere happen to be Wildfowl Trust sites, too…)


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    pat

    Truthseeker -

    if it was from the North Pole, the countries would be the other way around.

    Morano is fine, but the owrellian language now prevents any sane discussion. the CNN guy, Brune & Cousteau insist on using “climate change” throughout, instead of AGW, to the point where it all ends up sounding like gibberish. how do journalists & CAGW hacks still get away with saying someone doesn’t believe in climate change? Brune & Cousteau, at least, must know that it is deceptive & ridiculous, yet they get away with it time after time:

    Watch Video Now: CNN Hosts Rare Live Contentious Global Warming Debate – Marc Morano vs. Club’s Michael Brune & Philippe Cousteau Jr. – Full Transcript – Morano: ‘So record cold is now evidence of man-made global warming?
    http://www.climatedepot.com/2013/12/11/cnn-hosts-rare-live-contentious-global-warming-debate-marc-morano-vs-sierra-clubs-michael-brune-philippe-cousteau-jr-full-transcript-video-coming-soon-morano-so-record-cold-is-now-evi/


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    Debbie

    O/T but I thought people here would appreciate this:
    http://jennifermarohasy.com/2013/12/costly-climate-model-just-a-big-boys-toy/#comments
    Marohasy and Abbot have published a new paper and Jennifer Marohasy has posted her article from this week’s “The Land” at her blog along with a link to the published research.


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    pat

    Truthseeker -

    Planet Earth globe animation view from 90° North, Arctic, rotation 360 degrees, Freeware
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7vYPZJJq2M

    Earth Rotation: HQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8gsH_XsE8A


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    pat

    heard an abc radio presenter during the week bemoaning how australia doesn’t do big infrastructure any more, & asking why the govt isn’t solarising the entire country. World Bank doing it for India??? what does this really mean? who pays what, when, how?

    12 Dec: World Bank: Transforming India’s Future With Solar Power
    If India is to achieve its ambitious target of adding 20,000 MW of solar capacity by 2022, a number of measures must, however, be undertaken…
    It has added capacity at a commendable pace, and successfully reduced the costs of solar energy to around $0.12 per kWh for solar photo voltaic (PV) and $0.21 per kWh for Concentrated Solar Power (CSP), making India amongst the lowest cost destinations for grid-connected solar power in the world.
    Growth in the energy sector is key for India as more than 300 million of the country’s people still lack access to electricity, and industry cites energy shortages as a critical barrier to growth…
    Under Phase I of the program, scheduled commercial banks mostly shied away from lending for solar projects while export credit agencies, multilateral financial institutions, and some nonbanking financial institutions took up most of the financing. However, given that most infrastructure lending in India has been led by commercial banks, the solar program too will need their active participation to scale up to the levels envisaged…
    The World Bank has identified the development of solar power as one of the key elements of its Country Partnership Strategy with India…
    http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2013/12/12/transforming-indias-future-with-solar-power


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    Dave

    It’s a bad time to be a Bat.

    Bat popping wind turbines kill or pop insect eating bats at the rate of approximately 25 per year per turbine. One bat will eat about 500 insects per hour, or about 3,000 insects per night. In farming communities with colonies of 100 little brown bats, the result can be devastating for farmers, as the insect eating bats suddenly have a shortfall of over a million insects (including mossies) per night, after a couple of years because the bat population is popped by the windmills.

    Insecticide use is up, crop damage is up, and economically farmers costs escalate because the stupid Green Governments are paying subsidies to Windmill owners to kill bats and produce very little electricity.

    In all of Pennsylvania, bats saved farmers $277.9 million in estimated avoided costs of insect control alone. When are the Greens going to become true environmentalists instead of Bat Popping hypocrites.

    Then the windfarm operators have to do carcass counts themselves, and hand the data to authorities. The area they search is approximately 50 meters out from the base of the turbine, called the Carcass Kill Zone. The majority (65%) of large raptor and bat carcasses end up covering an area of up to nearly 115 meters from the base. The windmill Green Bat Poppers eliminate the count of over 50% of the kills in their reporting.

    See the Carcass Kill Zone diagram here.

    I cannot find any regulations for Australia that differ from this anywhere. It means that the kills rates published by these Green Bat Poppers are far greater than any of the figures they sprout about.

    It’s getting close to the point, where these monster wind mills have to be stopped.


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    pat

    some good news this week, at least for now:

    11 Dec: Japan News: Japan-U.S. discord throws wrench in TPP talks
    Froman’s comments masked the fact that the ministerial talks failed to reach the initial goal of reaching a substantive agreement by the end of this year. Indeed, the participants were unable to even reach a partial accomplishment, and only agreed to meet again next month for more talks. The possibility of the talks stalling remains.
    A key factor behind this outcome was the discord in negotiations between the United States and Japan. The United States stuck rigidly to its demand for a high level of free trade, without giving consideration to each nation’s internal conditions. It did not compromise on any concession proposals until the end of the talks…
    The unwillingness for Washington to offer any compromise stems from the hard-line stance of the U.S. Congress. The administration of President Barack Obama needs to acquire the president’s trade promotion authority from Congress, with which the president can request Congress to approve trade agreements without any amendment.
    If the agreements are not favorable to the United States, Congress may not agree to provide this authority…
    After talks with the United States, Akira Amari, state minister for economic and fiscal policy, said there was a line over which Japan could not concede even a centimeter.
    However, Nishimura later changed the wording to “will not concede even a millimeter on what cannot be conceded.”
    Koya Nishikawa, chairman of the Liberal Democratic Party’s TPP committee, said in Singapore after the ministerial talks that Japan does not need to become flexible when its counterpart does not show flexibility.
    Time has run out for the talks this year as both Japan and the United States will not give an inch.
    http://the-japan-news.com/news/article/0000863254

    11 Dec: Gulf Times: AFP: TPP meet ends without deal
    “We have decided to continue our intensive work in the coming weeks toward such an agreement,” Froman said, reading a joint statement by the trade ministers.
    “Following additional work by negotiators, we intend to meet again next month,” said the statement, which capped secretive talks denounced by activists as a US attempt to railroad a deal…
    Lori Wallach, director of Public Citizen’s Global Trade Watch, reiterated the group’s demand for greater transparency.
    “At this stage, the draft TPP text must be released so those of us who will live with the results can know just what was this so-called ‘progress’ entailed, and at whose expense,” Wallach said.
    But US trade chief Froman, who was described by Australian Trade Minister Andrew Robb as a “very hard taskmaster”***, called the Singapore meeting “tremendously successful and productive”.
    http://www.gulf-times.com/business/191/details/374331/tpp-meet-ends-without-a-deal

    ***taskmaster? given the definition is “one who imposes tasks, especially burdensome or laborious ones”, where does that place Australia in these negotiations?


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    PhilJourdan

    What amuses me the most is those who scream about “subsidies” for Oil Companies. It is popular because the politicians do it. But it is also totally false. Oil Companies receive no money from the government (at least in this country). They are allowed to follow GAAP rules that let them deduce expenses before reporting income. GAAP is the rule making agency here for all accounting.

    But this Bird killing is indeed a subsidy. It is allowing the wind mills to bypass costs (being subsidized). And yet even with all the subsidies and forgiveness of expenses, they still cannot turn a profit on a competitive basis.


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    Robert

    I note that ex Minister for Climate Change Combet spent a lot of government money, as pollies do, on a trip to Europe, France, Belgium etc.with his new girlfriend. Could he have not noticed that in France most power comes from Nuclear power stations when a political decision was made by the government not to be hostage to the Arabs after the 1970 oil embargo. Plutot, je crois que son grand-pere est Francais, et peut-etre il-meme en parle un peu, suffisant pour voir ces choses. Sorry can’t type in the accents.


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    KinkyKeith

    The killing and maiming of birds by wind turbines for little more than show purposes in getting “alternatives” out there on view may be bad, but there is worse.

    The fire storms which have swept Victoria, Tasmania and New South Wales in recent years have had more tragic consequences.

    Victoria suffered appalling human deaths. Upwards of 180 people died in the Victorian tragedy.

    Mostly hidden is the trauma many suffered in all three states from having homes obliterated by the fire and having to live makeshift lives during the extended rehabilitation of land and property, and that’s if they were insured.

    The point is that these fires were expected and predictable from the fuel loads which have accrued on all Australian land in the last forty years.

    As many of us have previously pointed out on this site, the actions of GOVERNMENT have led to many lives being lost on the altar of Man Made Global Warming.

    It is sad to lose birds, even sadder to lose human life because of twisted self righteous, uninformed opinion and obstinate pigheadedness about some idea of “Ecological Purity”.

    KK


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    Robert LePage

    Never mind about birds
    it’s OK to kill people with “clean” coal?
    Respiratory Diseases Induced by Coal Mine
    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/nas/rdrp/ch3.1.htm
    Coal Mining-Related Respiratory Diseases
    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/surveillance/ords/CoalMiningRelatedRespiratoryDiseases.html
    Coal kills.
    http://www.greenpeace.org/india/Global/india/report/Coal_Kills.pdf


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    Rereke Whakaaro

    The first reference is for the period 2006-2007, but quotes employment levels for 2004. It also seems to conflate multiple mining practices and different type of extract materials, and byproducts, into a single, non-specific impact, caused by a generic “Coal Mine Dust”.

    The second reference gives clinical definitions of Pneumoconiosis and Silicosis, but does not relate those conditions to incident levels during the period mentioned in the first reference, nor to any acknowledged baseline period.

    There is so much wrong with the third reference that it can only be referred to as a propaganda piece that relies on “well established claims” (which are not referenced, and therefore cannot be substantiated), and “assessments” (where the basis of assessment is not clear), and “estimated annual health impacts” (where the method of estimation is not given). It is conjecture.

    The conclusion in the third reference speaks of “premature mortality”, but does not give any comparative reference to the normative mortality rate for the population as a whole, nor by age or demographic, nor does it make any reference to other potential diagnoses, such as Cancer, Pneumonia, Pneumothorax, or other potential causes of chest related mortality.

    This is an example of the misapplication of Epidemiology at its worst. It should not be seen as a serious comment.


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      There are regrettably, deaths with coal mining and power production. But there is no industry where there are no deaths. The more useful statistics would be comparisons of deaths per TWhr between all sources of generation. And it would need to be a lifecycle analysis that included say mining for niobium in China for use in wind turbines and deaths involved with removal and disposal of windturbines too. It would also need to include the effects of the cost of the electricity and the deaths from people who could not afford to heat their homes. Or perhaps the cost of people losing sleep from infrasound disturbance.

      It would be impossible to account for all the deaths that higher energy costs could partially contribute too. We’ll never know the full price of financial stress on suicides, marriages, domestic violence or any of the more complex variables like delaying car maintenance…


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