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Flashback: France ditches carbon tax as protests mount

UPDATE: The French protests were 2010 news (and have been rediscovered around the web). H/t Jeremy C and David for pointing out the date, for a couple of hours I thought it was 2011 news. It’s an apt time to remind everyone in Australia of yet another country that isn’t rushing to become “carbon free”. It’s a rather prophetic warning to the Gillard Government, especially since the NSW landslide election against the Labor Party last weekend is still being analyzed and viewed increasingly as a “seismic event” in Australian politics.

——–

The economic reality of big-debts, and poor decisions made by people spending “other people’s money” always hurts in the long run. Sooner or later it all ends in tears. It’s a common theme: there were deadly protests in Greece, then these French protests in March 2010, and this March, the mass London protests with 250,000 people. Civil unrest is coming.

From The Telegraph and Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, March 2010:

President Nicolas Sarkozy on Tuesday scrapped the country’s proposed carbon tax and reshuffled his cabinet in populist tilt after suffering a crushing electoral defeat over the weekend, when his Gaulliste UMP arty lost every region other than in its bastion of Alsace and the Indian Ocean island of Reunion.

The greens were dismayed but business was relieved:

Medef, France’s business lobby, said the demise of the carbon levy was a “relief”. The tax would have been €17 a tonne compared to around €100 in Sweden, but business feared that this would creep up over time…

The trade unions said half of all primary school teachers followed the call to strike on Tuesday, though officials said the figure was 30pc. Half the commuter trains were stopped. The CGT union federation said it planned 180 marches across France to protest pension reform. The retirement age in France is still 60, far short of North European levels around 67. The pension deficit will reach €50bn a year by 2020 without radical changes.

h/t Catallaxy files and Des Moore.

UPDATE #2: stephen richards from France recalls that the protests were largely about pension changes. Comment #22.

Meanwhile Germany is fighting a wall of carbon tax fraud (March 2011):

Germany is looking to recover millions of euros in previously evaded taxes, as charges are filed against directors of companies accused of carrying out carbon credit tax fraud.

It’s another version of the VAT tax carousel fraud.

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84 comments to Flashback: France ditches carbon tax as protests mount

  • #
    M White

    Carbon tax in Britain

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/8423554/The-Budgets-green-dreams-will-leave-us-powerless.html

    “Already we have seen one estimate, from analysts at Matrix Group, that Mr Osborne’s new “carbon tax” will so skew the economics of coal-fired electricity that four of our larger French- and Spanish-owned power stations at Kingsnorth, Didcot, Tilbury and Cockenzie will have to shut down by 2013, even earlier than their forced closure under the EU’s Large Combustion Plants Directive”


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  • #
    Louis Hissink

    Fraud is endemic in socialist soceties.


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  • #
    Binny

    I have come to the conclusion that the problem with the Gillard government, is that they actually believe their own spin.


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  • #
    Speedy

    In France, the bulk (70%, I believe) of the electricity comes from nuclear energy – so their pain from a carbon tax would only be a fraction of what would happen in other countries – Australia, for instance?

    Earth to Gillard. Earth to Gillard. Are you receiving, Gillard?

    Cheers,

    Speedy.


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  • #
    Albert

    The Australian Government is in denial about the community’s acceptance of carbon taxes and climate change due to co2.
    I remember years ago Tariq Aziz was broadcasting to the people of Iraq that the Americans had not entered Iraq and in the background you could clearly see American soldiers and tanks.
    The only cure is an election.


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  • #
    David

    This is the largest money grab by this organised group of alarmists the world has seen – “average people are going to revolt against this”

    George Kukla, 77, retired professor of paleoclimatology at Columbia University and researcher at the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory responds, “The only thing to worry about global warming is the damage that can be done by worrying. Why are some scientists worried? Perhaps because they feel that to stop worrying may mean to stop being paid.”

    Even old George at 77 can see the greed of the AGW group. France, Germany, Sweden, NSW and then the world.

    Damian Allens last link shows how irrelevant CO2 is in this money grab!

    Damian Allen:
    April 3rd, 2011 at 2:42 pm
    This excellent article is thoroughly worth reading!!

    Physicist Proves CO2 Emissions Irrelevant in Earth’s Climate:-

    http://www.omsj.org/corruption/physicist-proves-co2-emissions-irrelevant-in-earth%E2%80%99s-climate


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  • #
    Joe V.

    2Louis Hissink:
    April 3rd, 2011 at 6:59 pm

    Fraud is endemic in socialist soceties.

    This is an interesting one.
    Sarkozy is of the Right.
    Who organised the protests?
    They weren’t protesting the Carbon Tax.
    Is Sarkozy using social pressures on more pressing issues (pensions) as an excuse to dismantle a tax in which he doesn’t believe?
    If only the Conservatives in Britain had the same guille, but they seem intent on dismantling the social provision – in the name of paying for the Banker’s crisis- while clinging on to the biggest waste of money, in the form of Carbon taxes, because it’s still trendy & no doubt still helps their mates in the City, these poor Bankers.


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  • #
    Jeremy C

    Didn’t this happen a year ago in France and only now are certain newspapers running with it?

    [Yes. Oops. You are right Jeremy. Thanks. I'll update....JN]


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  • #
    Joe Lalonde

    Jo,

    The waste of money for going “green” is staggering.
    With subsidies to prop up bad technology effectively crushing any good research and development for better ideas.

    Do you know how much WASTED energy goes through a wind turbine or a hydro electric turbine?
    Currently the worlds largest wind turbine is being created to produce 7 megawatts of power. It uses the space of 21,124 square meters the blade space of the turbines are 492 square meters. So, that leaves 20,632 square meters of empty wind energy space. WASTED ENERGY of 20,632 square meters that do not touch the blades. So rather than going smaller to capture all the energy, they are going bigger to create junk.
    After these monsters are built, they are too costly to maintain in maintenance and die from neglect.


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  • #
    Louis Hissink

    Joe V,

    France is as socialist as they come – it’s all relative – I should have said statist to be more accurate, but few understand that term. The problem is a government/state controlled or influenced economy – whether of the right or left – fraud and corruption are intrinsic to these systems as people try to circumvent regulations and laws to achieve whatever goals they have.

    France has a big problem with unemployment of the young people, and the funding of the welfare state. Their farm sector is heavily subsidised, as is the whole EU farming sector, dumping over production onto Africa, etc. The EU is simply a socialist state, eerily similar to the now defunct USSR. And because of the internal contradictions of this economic system, economic collapse will happen, as it happened with the USSR.

    French Fraud seems to go from the top down, as it always does in these systems.


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  • #
    Another Ian

    Re Binny #3

    I’ve posted this before, maybe here too, but seems repeatable

    The difference between just plain BS and REAL BS is

    Just Plain BS is where someone expects you to believe in some BS in which they don’t actually believe

    Real BS is where someone expects you to believe in some BS in which they actually believe


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  • #
    David

    Jeremy C @ 8
    Well picked up – this has been recirculated through every media channel this March 2011 – the original date looks like March 2010 (By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard at UK Telegraph) – JO? What do you think?


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  • #
    Joe V.

    Louis @ 10
    While I wouldn’t disagree, it doesn’t seem the socialists have the monopoly on corruption. Perhaps they’re just better at dressing it up as being for the common good, which let’s their schemes carry on a lot further, before collapsing under their own weight.
    Anyway isn’t it refreshing to see some of the more extravagant indulgences being dismantled, in response to popular protest, albeit at something else ?
    Does the French government have a greater appreciation of it’s electorate that it’s neighbours ?


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  • #
    incoherent rambler

    The political bang for AU is that the MSM (in AU) might slip the French move into the headlines. This would make life difficult for JG 4.3


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  • #
    Joe V.

    Another Ian @ # 11
    I think you have it there.
    So the socialists tend to get away with it for longer as theirs tends to be the REAL variety of BS. Unfortunately there seem to be more & more conservative administrations happy to perpetuate a lot of the Real BS they inherit from predecessors administrations.


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  • #
    John Bennett

    We’re in the middle of a federal election here in Canada. The last one was in 2008, where the Liberals (centre-left) proposed a sweeping carbon tax and were soundly defeated at the polls. Their leader at the time was quickly shuffled off the stage and is no longer in politics.

    Interestingly enough, especially for a country with one of the highest carbon-footprints per capita, the “environment” has completely fallen off the radar in the current election campaign. We’ve been the recipient of the same amount of fear-mongering propaganda as the rest of the world (arguably more, given that we produce “dirty oil” from the oil sands), yet public support for any form of carbon tax or cap-and-trade has all but evaporated.

    Related article from one of our national newspapers:
    http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/04/02/environment-drops-off-campaign-agenda


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  • #
    Mark

    Jeremy C #8

    Jeremy, France apparently has Regional and Cantonal elections. The Regional elections were last year and the UMP took a beating then as well. They must be punch-drunk by now, electorally speaking.

    Politicians can be crazy but cunning at the same time. I’m wondering if Jooliar isn’t preparing the way for a backdown, what with her recent attacks on the Greens. Whatever the public posturing, the lessons of the NSW election would not have gone unlearnt.


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  • #
    Joe V.

    8Jeremy C:

    April 3rd, 2011 at 8:30 pm
    Didn’t this happen a year ago in France and only now are certain newspapers running with it?
    Liked it? 0  0

    I thought it hAd a familiar ring to it.
    That’s the old campaigning trick of drcdging up old news, when it’s relevant to your immediate cause.

    Quite excusable, but nice when the dates coincide so deceptively too .;-)


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  • #
    scaper...

    Hey, I posted the link here the other day without looking at the date and now it is a thread subject?

    Permission to wipe egg off face.


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  • #
    Mark

    I think Wiki can be trusted with this sort of info.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_cantonal_elections,_2011

    An extensive electoral timetable is listed on this page.


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  • #

    Thanks Jeremy C and David. Date noted! Curious how large those protests were and yet how easily forgotten. This is a very timely reminder and a good example of how things may play out in Australia. I’ve updated the post. Cheers!


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  • #
    stephen richards

    There are a lot of misconceptions among the commentators here today; It was last year that Pres Sarkozy decided not to go for a C14 tax set at 14€ the tonne. He decided to wait for the EUSSR to do it for him and that law will kick in this year. The strikes last year were about the pension law which past through the legislature last year and provides for a retirement age of 67. Initially it was designed to remove the privelege of retiring at 50 and 55 years, although with a slightly reduced pension, and introduced a minimum retirement age of 62 yrs but a pension age of 65 increasing to 67 by ( and here I have trouble remembering the date because it was change as part of a compromise stemming from the stikes) 2016 or 2020.

    In the UK the halfwitted progressives have decided to bring to an end “the uncertainty” of the current C14 trading system (read nobody was buying) by introducing a fixed price of £16 a ton going on £30 with an additional electricity tax to pay for another million or two bird mincers. I think most of what I say is correct but it is from the memory of a pensioner.

    Stephen Richards, SW France


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  • #
    stephen richards

    Jeremy is correct. We have just had our Cantonal elections which send representatives to the General Council (Conseil Génèral). As a municipal councilor in the Région Aquitaine I must have missed the régional Elections because I simply don’t remember them but Pres. Sarkozy has already fundamentally changed the system and after 2014 many of these assemblies will disappear following the introduction of the Conseil Territoriaux.

    Global Warming is not much of an issue here. Most towns people seem to accept it’s existence and most country people it’s non-existence. France is fundamentally a socialist country even Sarkozy’s party is socialist relative to the US democrat’s. Germany has switched of it’s Nuclear power stations as a result of Japan (temp I think) and France generates on average 82.5% of it’s electricity by nuclear. Hypocritically, both the UK and Germany buy our electricity.


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  • #
    Joe V.

    Perhaps he did it, because Carbon is a key component in this new defensive Super Umbrella, that he’ll need to protect him from the protests.

    I had to check the date wasn’t April 1st, but it’s not.

    Inspector Clouseau would have a field day.

    Read all about it, in the Mail


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  • #
    Joe V.

    Stephen @#23

    Hypocritically, both the UK and Germany buy our electricity.

    That’s not hypocrisy.
    Germany’s reactors are old and the utility companies in Britain, water & electricity particularly, are owned by the French.
    How else could they sell rain (in bottles) to the English!


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    Joe V.

    If you look at what this current electoral defeat is really about, does it herald the beginning of a swing back to the extremes, in the face of prolonged austerity measures brought about by the banking crises.


    Let us not forget that it was sustained high unemployment and austerity, the sense that governments were unresponsive to average people’s dire economic conditions, which led to the rise of extremist intolerant parties in pre-war Europe,” Mr Posen concluded.

    from a Member of the Bank of England’s Monetary Policy Committee, in the Financial Times


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  • #
    Speedy

    Does this mean that Julia Gillard is not a liar any more?

    Didn’t think so.

    Cheers,

    Speedy


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  • #
    Joe V.

    22stephen richards:
    April 3rd, 2011 at 10:20 pm

    There are a lot of misconceptions among the commentators here today; It was last year that Pres Sarkozy decided not to go for a C14 tax set at 14€ the tonne. He decided to wait for the EUSSR to do it for him and that law will kick in this year.

    As Stephen points out, the democratic fig leaf of National Governments in Europe allows politicians to make gestures, which will in any case be overridden by the EU Superstate which they all serve. It is harder for people to relate to , & therefore protest, what the EU gets up to as the “accountability” is so devolved, supposedly through national governments, though as such it is quite ineffective – other than to ensure a future career path for national politicians , once they become otherwise unelectable.

    Unfortunately the ‘debate’ about Europe for the man in the street, doesn’t seem to get much beyond how much more convenient it is not to have to change currencies when holidaying in Europe.
    If only they could understand what such ‘freedoms’ are costing them.
    365CampingCaravaning


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  • #
    stephen richards

    Germany’s reactors are old and the utility companies in Britain, water & electricity particularly, are owned by the French.
    How else could they sell rain (in bottles) to the English!

    Sorry Joe but vous vous êtes trompé. EDF sold their british distribution business to some gents out of Hong Kong. The french do still have a small water business but not for much longer, I think, and they will be building (almost certainly) some Nuclear Power in the next 10 yrs or so but that’s because the british got rid of their expertise some years ago because of the wacky greenie beenies. German reactors are ‘old’ as are some of the french but the french kept their running during the japan problem. The germans in the form of RWE have a greater interest in UK utilities than France. And lastly, and most interestingly, the french sell more bottled water to the french than the brits because they believe that the french water system is awful and of course we have the volcanos, dormant happily.


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  • #
    pattoh

    Is it just me or does anybody else out there get the feeling that there are a couple of prominent ALP heavies keeping a low profile & at most, making comments about “jobs” in the aftermath of a carbon tax?

    Could it be at all possible that there is a “Phoenix” group hoping to rise from the political ashes after the voters get cranked up? Is another coup in the wind?


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  • #
    Eddy Aruda

    As I have written before, I don’t normally comment on Australian politics. However, in any country where you place a tax on carbon you are merely increasing the cost of energy which increases the cost of goods and services. Manufacturers and service companies merely pass the cost along to the consumer. As usual, the poor suffer the most from social engineering and will bear the brunt of the cost of a carbon tax. Since our bodies contain carbon and we exhale carbon dioxide, how long will it be before they tax the very breath we exhale?


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  • #
    scaper...

    Here’s a morning heart starter.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-MiI2y7OkY

    Produced by downtown from CANdo.

    A clip of the Sydney rally, complete with soundtrack…enjoy.


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  • #
    Joe V.

    29stephen richards:
    April 4th, 2011 at 2:53 am

    Sorry Joe but vous vous êtes trompé. EDF sold their british distribution business to some gents out of Hong Kong………….., the french sell more bottled water to the french than the brits because they believe that the french water system is awful………

    OK Stephen, I may be well & truly trompé, but my electricity cheque is still made out to EDF. Now they have managed to establish the dependence on French supply there may not be the same need to own it no more.
    Degrading the English water supply to the extent that the English no longer trust water from their taps, could be said to be another triumphe of French ingenuity.
    These mineral waters are excellent of course, though the very idea we should need them when at home in England is anathema to some.
    o


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  • #
    Louis Hissink

    Joe V

    The only aspect that will be of concern is the European history of violence – remember this lot have had quite a few nasty wars over the centuries and if I were a Muslim in Europe, I would start to return back to my homelands – the Europeans will be looking for scapegoats to vent their fury on. This will have economic repercussions globally.


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  • #
    Joe V.

    Louis @34
    While neither the Carbon taxes nor the Banking crises can be attributed to the Muslim world, I fear they are already a target of nationalist sentiment & would make a ready scapegoat, to distract from problems at home, much as the bankers of their day did in pre- war Europe.


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  • #
    Ross

    Stephen and others. My understanding of what happened in France last year besides what you have mentioned was that Sarkozy tried to introduce a carbon tax on petrol as well as or over and above the EU proposals, but he eventually backed down on the petrol tax.

    In Australia there must be a few disappointed researchers and alternative energy consultants now that Gillard has said “every cent” of the tax will go to helping those adversely affected by the tax.


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  • #
    Siliggy

    Ross:
    April 4th, 2011 at 7:19 am
    “In Australia there must be a few disappointed researchers and alternative energy consultants now that Gillard has said “every cent” of the tax will go to helping those adversely affected by the tax.”

    Ross what she said was “There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead”
    So it is not under the government it is OVER the government meaning this government is subservient to it and or she is not leading it.
    Remember also that the UN climate change fund must be “adversely affected by the tax”(nasty enforcement costs?). So it will get 10 percent as explained by the first 35 seconds of this video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX5rlhbYTXY
    This was agreed to by these clever and well educated people who love us and our allies:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzZ_Zcp4PwY


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  • #
    Bob Malloy

    From the Australian.

    A new carbon tax, if set at $25 a tonne, will raise more tax from liable Australian companies in its first three months than the European Union’s emissions trading scheme has generated since its launch more than six years ago.

    Think about that. The proposed carbon pricing scheme in the country that accounts for 1.4 per cent of global emissions is going to generate more tax revenue in three months than the scheme in the European trading bloc that accounts for 14 per cent of global emissions has generated in more than six years.


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  • #
    incoherent rambler

    My experience is that outside of the UK and AU you don’t hear much about AGW.
    Searching for motivations, methinks it is the pension funds/superannuation. The union run funds(in AU) and things like the BBC pension fund are heavily invested in solar/wind. Their profitability is dependent on continuing the AGW scam. The money from a CGT would assist in keeping the fund investments viable for the short term.
    This is why we get union support for the greens/ALP beyond all political reason in NSW. If the wind industry collapses in the UK, we will end up with some very old BBC presenters. To what degree is your super fund exposed?


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  • #
    The Loaded Dog

    Speaking of protests, reader “Bruce” over at ACM has found an interesting piece in “crikey” of all places on that truly representative group at “GetUp”

    My response to Bruce was this:-

    Very interesting Bruce, especially coming from the likes of “crikey”

    I found this paragraph sums up what we’ve been saying all along. ie this mob are NOT representative of a grass roots movement:-

    But the core problem with GetUp is not its coziness with either the ALP or self-styled social entrepreneurs. It’s the aloof detachment from the grass roots networks that have always impelled real social change.

    So the writer of a piece in “crikey” is conceding that “GetUp” is “detached from the grassroots networks that have always impelled real social change”

    In other words – their message is nothing more than leftist propaganda and consists of little more than spin.

    This is a movement trying to deceive the public into thinking there is more support for a Carbon (dioxide) Tax than there really is.

    They are only fooling themselves….


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  • #
    val majkus

    Latest climate change information captured in new CSIRO book
    Reference: 11/30

    CSIRO today will launch Climate Change: Science and Solutions for Australia to help inform business, government, and the community about the many issues that need to be addressed in response to climate change.

    http://www.csiro.au/news/New-Climate-Change-book.html

    Haven’t yet checked the book but will be interesting to see if it carries the usual disclaimer


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  • #
    val majkus

    no can’t see a disclaimer but some of the footnoted material may carry its own disclaimer


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  • #
    scaper...

    Did this book get printed with CSIRO funds or did the money come from consolidated revenue??

    Nice timing.


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  • #
    Jannes Kleintje

    Probably off topic.. I came across this website. It is a Wall of Shame.
    Would it now be a good time to make a similar Wall of Shame to expose those who deliberately tell sensational lies about climate change?

    http://jpquake.wikispaces.com/Journalist+Wall+of+Shame

    “This Wall of Shame is being assembled by various people, many of whom are on the ground in Japan as residents, not temporarily assigned journalists, who are sick of the sensationalist, overly speculative, and just plain bad reporting that has gone on since the Tohoku quake in Japan on March 11.”


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  • #
    pat

    AAP’s daily dose of CAGW:

    4 April: Yahoo: AAP:10 year window to save reef: expert
    The Great Barrier Reef will be lost unless there’s dramatic action to cut greenhouse gasses over the next 10 years, a climate change scientist warns.
    Professor Ove Hoegh Guldberg issued the warning ahead of an address to a major climate change conference starting in Cairns on Monday…
    He says the Great Barrier Reef could be gone within four decades unless carbon emissions are cut…
    The Greenhouse 2011 conference will also see the launch of a CSIRO book to help business, government and the community respond to climate change.
    The book, which draws on Australian and international research, details climate change impacts that are already apparent in Australia…
    http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/full-coverage/9128495/10-year-window-to-save-reef-expert/

    the faceless men in charge of AAP:

    Nov 2010: AAP Celebrates 75th Birthday in Style
    https://www.aap.com.au/about-aap/company-updates

    AAP: Australian Associated Press was founded in 1935 as a cooperative news gathering organisation for the mutual benefit of its 14 newspaper members.
    http://aap.com.au/about-aap/the-story-of-us


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  • #
    pat

    derbyshire, who wrote the following, also wrote “How to tackle windy cattle: beefier diet could reduce flatulence and help the environment” on 30 March!

    3 April: UK Daily Mail: David Derbyshire: Glaciers ‘melting 100 times faster than at any time in 350 years’
    The amount of ice lost from the 270 Patagonian glaciers is equivalent to filling Windermere in the Lake District more than 1,700 times.
    Caption: Melting pot: BBC’s Brian Cox at Perito Moreno glacier in Patagonia, Argentina where scientists say they have discovered glaciers are melting up to 100 times faster than any time during the last 350 years..
    ‘The glaciers have lost a lot less ice up until 30 years ago than had been thought,’ said Prof Glasser.
    ‘The real killer is that in the last 30 years the rate of loss has gone up 100 times above the long term average. It’s scary.’…
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1372955/Glaciers-melting-100-times-faster-time-350-years.html


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    elsie

    Yesterday (3 April 2011) on the evening ABC News there was an item mentioning a Climate Change conference in Cairns. However, it did not say or show anything about that. Instead for a minute or more there were clips showing; butterflies emerging in Melbourne 10 days earlier than usual, the snow line in the Snowy Mts rising by 40%, cold water fish being seen below the latitude of Tasmania and a forecast that if the world temperature rises by about 1 or 2′C then 75% of species will become extinct.

    Then it suddenly hit me. I had seen these clips before!
    Yes, about 5, maybe 10 years ago.
    They were using old, old stuff to scare us again with.
    I did see, but did not watch, a re-run of Al Gore’s “An Inconvenient Truth” the other night.


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  • #
    val majkus

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaTJJCPYhlk
    worth watching again
    the Great Global Warming Swindle


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  • #
    pat

    and this will be pushed in cairns! as i already watch and listen to nothing that might mention CAGW, what will be left?

    4 April: Australian: Cheryl Jones: Poor information and sense of irritation hamper climate change science
    A LACK of “credible information” is one of the main reasons that 40 per cent of Australians do not believe that humans have a role in global warming, according to the head of the federal government’s Climate Commission, Tim Flannery.
    And the fact that many Australians found the topic irritating, according to a CSIRO survey, was hampering efforts to communicate the science of climate change and to implement effective policy, he said.
    “No enduring reforms will happen in this space until we get the weight of public opinion behind them,” Professor Flannery told The Australian.
    “Climate scientists need to be more widely heard in the public debate.”
    He was commenting on the results of the most comprehensive study yet of Australians’ attitudes to climate change.
    The survey was initiated and funded internally by CSIRO as part of the research program of the agency’s Climate Adaptation Flagship…
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/poor-information-and-sense-of-irritation-hamper-climate-change-science/story-e6frg6nf-1226032922912


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    Damian Allen

    Here is some interesting information about glaciers…..

    California Mountain Glaciers increasing in size:-

    http://www.iceagenow.com/Glaciers_growing_on_Mt_Shasta.htm


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  • #
    janama

    Pat @ 45.

    The reefs already were dying at an increasing rate because of global warming and acidification of the oceans, said researchers meeting this week at the International Coral Research Symposium (ICRS) in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

    Chair of the climate change session, Professor Ove Hoegh-Guldberg (Ove Hoegh-Guldberg) of the ARC Centre of Excellence for Coral Reef Studies in Townsville, said there was evidence that all coral reefs were in trouble.
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    “The evidence suggests reef systems are becoming more brittle, as a result of bleaching, disease and the effects of acidifying water,” he said today.

    “This means we are likely to see more moonscape-like areas where reefs once used to be.

    http://www.smh.com.au/travel/coral-reef-deaths-threaten-tourism-20081113-603t.html

    Barrier Reef ‘could be dead in 20 years’
    April 6, 2007

    The Great Barrier Reef could be dead in 20 years unless there is a drastic reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, a marine biology expert said on Friday.

    Rising sea temperatures were bleaching the coral and causing it to die, said Professor Ove Hoegh-Guldberg of the Australian Research Council Centre for Excellence for Coral Reef Studies.

    At the same time, increasing levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere were turning the world’s oceans more acidic and preventing corals from forming their limestone skeletons, he said.

    http://news.smh.com.au/national/barrier-reef-could-be-dead-in-20-years-20070406-6ad.html

    Australia ‘must act on climate to north’
    Adam Gartrell
    May 13, 2009

    In the worst-case scenario, the region’s reefs are destroyed by rapid increases in ocean temperature, acidity and sea level, says Professor Ove Hoegh-Guldberg, who led the study.

    “Poverty increases, food security plummets, economies suffer and coastal people migrate increasingly to urban areas,” he says.

    “Tens of millions of people are forced to move from rural and coastal settings due to loss of homes, food resources and income, putting pressure on regional cities and surrounding developed nations such as Australian and New Zealand.”

    Even under the best-case scenario, coastal communities will be forced to endure rising sea levels, a loss of coral and fish, more storms and severe droughts, the study says.

    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/australia-must-act-on-climate-to-north-20090513-b23s.html

    Act now, or it’s catastrophe – experts

    November 09, 2006 12:00AM

    AUSTRALIA’S leading climate experts have predicted droughts, major bushfires, floods and food shortages will be the norm if climate change is not addressed immediately.

    Death from heatwaves and rising sea levels in the Pacific threatening border security are also realities we may face soon, according to the experts.

    In a Herald Sun survey of 10 of the country’s leading climate change scientists, including CSIRO’s Dr Penny Whetton, Prof Ove Hoegh-Guldberg of the University of Queensland, and climate author Dr Barrie Pittock, eight called for the Government to act immediately to cut greenhouse gas emissions.

    They also urged individuals to make changes in their daily lives to help arrest the effects of global warming from greenhouse gas emissions.

    Dr Pittock, former head of CSIRO’s Climate Impact Group, said global warming and sea-level rises were at the high end of projections made in 2001.

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/act-now-or-its-catastrophe-experts/story-e6frf7l6-1111112492139


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    crakar24

    Damian,

    Dont you know AGW causes glaciers to advance, stay the same or retreat?


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    crakar24

    Janama,

    Strange how a nuke blast cant stop a reef but tiny CO2 can bring it to its knees, any reasons (logical) for this?

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13668-nuked-coral-reef-bounces-back.html


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    Bulldust

    Oopsie… FOI’d CSIRO papers list things like decreasing cyclone activity as a nasty side effect of global warming:

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/climate/climate-change-to-mean-fewer-cyclones-and-smaller-waves-says-csiro-research/story-e6frg6xf-1226033322365

    How uncovenient* for them … here’s my take on it:

    Some of these predictions are reminiscent of the crazy prophets in Life of Brian: “And there shall in that time be rumours of things going astray, and there will be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things with the sort of raffia work base, that has an attachment…”

    You catch the drift. Is this the prime scientific agency in the country or some sort of computer modelling club? Last time I checked real science involves observation and hard data, not running of computer scripts and proclamations based thereon.

    * Sometimes I feel the urge to deliberately mispell words … other times I simply screw up.


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  • #
    Mark D.

    bullydust* (me too)
    Are you saying “burn the witches?”


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  • #
    Siliggy

    janama:
    April 4th, 2011 at 1:46 pm
    Pat @ 45.
    How long before expansion at the rate of 14Km per year means the whole world is overtaken by coral?
    At least With the “expansions in species distribution.” there will not be any extinctions.
    http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2011/2010GL046474.shtml


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    Bulldust

    I presume this has been linked before, but just in case:

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/04/02/leaked-document-shows-how-australian-government-planned-to-sell-the-idea-of-a-carbon-dioxide-tax-to-the-public/

    Bob Carter, Alan Moran & David Evans get a good coverage in the WUWT article which discusses the pathetic* slogans and soundbites being pushed in the leaked Labor climate change brief for members:

    http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/governments_brief_to_alp_mps.pdf

    It is appalling to think that this is the level at which the political debate is being held … completely outside the realm of science, economics or even basic common sense.

    * Scientifically, economically, and logically deficient if you prefer.


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    Bulldust

    Mark D.:

    That’s Holy Grail :p At least you should put Gillard on the scales against a duck first …

    Would be fun to release that rabbit from Caerbannog in Parliament House and let it do what comes naturally.


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    Mark D.

    Mean nasty teeth! It couldn’t hurt.


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    Mark D.

    Bulldust the document you refer to in 57 has many annoyances but one stands out to me: the notion that AU must act first or risk “falling behind”. Does anyone have an explanation for why you’d “fall behind”????


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    crakar24

    Bulldust in 54,

    Tried to find the disclaimer on this one but so far to no avail, i did find the disclaimer for http://www.csiro.au/files/files/p3ct.pdf

    Which reads “The impact assessments summarised here are based on
    results from computer models that involve simplifications of
    real physical processes that are not fully understood.
    Accordingly, no responsibility will be accepted by CSIRO for
    the accuracy of the assessments inferred from this brochure
    or for any person’s interpretations, deductions, conclusions
    or actions in reliance on this information.”

    No doubt this latest piece of propaganda will have a similar “you cant sue us” mentality.

    By the way if not for the FOIA the results of this study would not have been made public correct? Why would this be the case, is it because it conflicts with the lie?


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    crakar24

    Stephen in 22,

    “The last official act of any corrupt government is to loot the people” (Mike Rivero, Whatreallyhappened.com) and

    “If you make peaceful revolution impossible you make violent revolution inevitable” JFK.


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    pattoh

    Rabbits? I bet I know who has the Holy Hand Grenade!


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    elsie

    Barrier Reef ‘could be dead in 20 years’
    April 6, 2007

    Yep, and that was said 20 years before AND 20 years before that AND 20 years before that.
    Dr Endean, a marine biologist at QU swore the GBR would be ruined in a couple of years from the Crown of Thorns starfish eating coral. His thesis was that Mankind was causing the greater numbers. This was about 1960. Turned out the Crown of Thorns was a repetitive natural event which did the coral good by ‘pruning’ it as would a good gardener. I’m positive the GBR will be around healthier than ever after all of us are dead and gone. Besides, I always thought coral and warm water went side by side. In Moreton Bay their IS a lot of dead coral that must have existed in warmer times. It is used now for cement making.


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  • #

    Grow a brain!

    http://www.reposter.net/2011/04/climate-change-skeptics-are-nothing-but-loud-ignorant-rednecks/

    [It's a kindergarten attack site that gets as many readers as it apparently deserves. Better wait until the author has finished school before being too harsh on him (or her)--JN]


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    Bulldust

    I just wandered onto the CSIRO web site and went to publications… this is reminiscent of the chap who was interviewed in the Great Climate Change Swindle (or whatever that movie was called) and said you could get funding for just about anything if you had “climate change” in the title (he used an example of the mating habits of squirrels or some such):

    http://www.csiro.au/resources/concrete-durability-report.html

    The CSIRO was funded to research the impacts of climate change on concrete infrastructure … I kid you not. I draw your attention to:

    “The report is based on an analysis of climate change impacts on the deterioration of concrete infrastructure that was funded by Department of Climate Change and Energy Efficiency (DCCEE) and the CSIRO Climate Adaptation Flagship.”

    (emphasis added)

    There’s your funding mechanism for you … Department of Climate Change. Is it any wonder that no decent renewable technology gets discovered when we are pissing away money on garbage like this? You really think concrete will be affected significantly by a temperature rise of 1C, 2C, or even 5C?

    To add insult to injury, I fail to see how this leads to “Economic Efficiency.”


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    cohenite

    val @ 41 links to the latest CSIRO report on AGW; it begins with this:

    “Global average temperatures have risen in line with climate model projections for the last 20 years, while global average sea levels are rising near the upper end of the climate model projections.”

    Both of these assertions are lies, with or without disclaimers; the first has been disproved by Koutsoyiannis, among many other peer reviewed studies; and the second has been disproved by the Houston and Dean study, also among many others.

    I cannot see any other alternative but to sue the CSIRO for misrepresentation.


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    Bulldust

    ZOMGZ it gets better … the propellor heads are now dubbing “Peak Minerals”, because (presumably) Peak Oil was already taken/out of fashion/so last year(pick one):

    http://www.csiro.au/files/files/pzvj.pdf

    I put it to the CSIRO that the way we will be extracting and using minerals in 100 years may be a tad different to today. Heck we will be mining out in space by then … seriously, think about it. I don’t even have to get into the whole issue of nanotech, 3D printing, atomic assemblers etc … even as it stands this study is rubbish.

    I think the researchers should be beaten with copies of “Scarcity and Growth” (by Barnett and Morse) until they reach enlightenment*.

    * Given the calibre of the tripe this mob is producing I cannot guarantee no loss of life through such a process.


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    janama

    Dr Peter Ridd, a marine scientist from the same University says the GBR is in Pristine condition – in fact it’s probably the most pristine environment in Australia!

    Here’s the interview with Alan Jones.

    http://www.2gb.com/podcasts/alanjones/alanjonesridd040210.mp3

    crakar24: – in the article you linked to:

    “It was fascinating – I’ve never seen corals growing like trees outside of the Marshall Islands,” says Zoe Richards of the ARC Centre of Excellence for Coral Reef Studies in Australia.

    The Marshall Islands were also nuked :)


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    Bulldust

    I almost forgot why I went to the CSIRO web site LOL … I was looking for said disclaimer (and they have lots), but I think the best is probably the general one hanging off the main site home page:

    Link: http://www.csiro.au/org/LegalNoticeAndDisclaimer.html
    Source: Legal {Notice and Disclaimer} at foot of page

    In a nutshell they are not responsible for anything they write.

    Always check the information

    Information at this site:

    * is general information provided as part of CSIRO’s statutory role in the dissemination of information relating to scientific and technical matters
    * is not professional, scientific, medical, technical or expert advice
    * is subject to the usual uncertainties of advanced scientific and technical research
    * may not be accurate, current or complete
    * is subject to change without notice
    * should never be relied on as the basis for doing or failing to do something

    But wait there’s more:

    DISCLAIMER

    You accept all risks and responsibility for losses, damages, costs and other consequences resulting directly or indirectly from using this site and any information or material available from it.

    To the maximum permitted by law, CSIRO excludes all liability to any person arising directly or indirectly from using this site and any information or material available from it.

    I ask one simple question … if this advice on the CSIRO web site is potentially inaccurate, unscientific, unprofessional and subject to change without notice, why, oh why, are we basing a $10 billion a year Federal taxation policy on it?


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    Damian Allen

    The Great Barrier Reef is NOT dying!

    This is just ANOTHER scam by these GREEN COMMUNISTS!!!!!

    Here comes the “ocean acidification” scam, watch out!

    http://www.iloveco2.org/2009/04/here-comes-ocean-acidification-scam.html


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    pattoh

    I seem to recollect Bob of the Nether Regions recently making a comment that the GBR employed more people than the coal industry.

    I guess somebody should have rejoined that coal provided over 20% of Australia’s foriegn earnings & asked how much the GBR tourism specifically contributed. ( particularly if the state & federal spending was removed from the equation)

    Further, he should have been asked to explain where the carbon in the CaCO3 of the coral/limestone came from.


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    Damian Allen

    CSIRO’s warming gets a chill!!!

    It’s starting to look somewhat CHILLY for the Plant Food Tax promoters!

    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/csiros_warming_gets_a_chill/


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    Damian Allen

    Agenda 21……coming to a neighbourhood near you.

    http://www.infiniteunknown.net/2010/11/30/un-agenda-21-coming-to-a-neighborhood-near-you/

    Wildlands project (USA).

    http://www.crossroad.to/text/articles/Food-Land96.html

    Wild Rivers act (Queensland)

    http://www.derm.qld.gov.au/wildrivers/legislation.html

    This sounds benign ‘Sustainable development’ but is actually an alternative name for Agenda 21. http://www.halledit.com.au/nswsd2011


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    janama

    OT – On tonight’s 7pm project they are interviewing some one about the research that’s found that 8 million Australians are illiterate and it’s affecting employment figures etc…… Dave Hughes calmly asks the interviewee to spell illiterate….he starts Ell…….

    Then later in the show they discuss Global warming and are we responsible. They actually had a sceptical scientist offering an alternative view to the others, Tim Flannery was there as expected. Then they come back to the studio and some stupid guest journo says “90% of all scientists believe it’s true!” and they all nod.

    Sheeeeesh!!


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    MaxL

    Bulldust@65
    I think “the chap”, was Nigel Calder on “The Great Global Warming Swindle”
    As for the deterioration of concrete, well I must remind you that Global warming is responsible for everything. Your wife leaves you for another man, Global warming is to blame. Car won’t start, Global warming again. Do you remember the claims that daylight savings would fade the curtains?


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    manalive

    Referring to val majkus (41) and cohenite (66), anyone who can read a simple graph will see that the CSIRO’s claim that “sea levels are rising near the upper end of the climate model projections” is utter hyperbole or worse — that’s unless the “projections” forecast a noticeable fall in the overall 100 year sea level rise rate.

    The long term trend shows fluctuations in the rate of rise consistent with the temperature trend (and nothing remotely alarming) and selecting the last 20 years to put the frighteners into the hoi polloi is unscientific cherry-picking of the worst kind and as a member of the aforementioned and a taxpayer, I’ve had it up to here with the CSIRO’s CAGW advocacy.


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    David

    All too much – with AGW you can change like the wind.

    EU now over produced CO2 in 2010 because of unusual cold weather???
    See http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-01/eu-emissions-in-2010-rose-for-the-first-time-in-three-years-gaining-3-45-.html and this is simply that CO2 emmissions have increased because of cooling – “but I thought AGW meant warming – that’s why we have an ETS or CO2 Tax?”

    And Professor Ove Hoegh Guldberg states that the oceans are becoming more acidic? The oceans ph has and always will be between 8.1 and 8.2 (which is alkaline) on the relevant ph scale. So if you add CO2 to water (the current ocean) it becomes less alkaline (not more acidic as it never was acidic).

    Unfortunately science personel at CSIRO have accepted the theory of AGW (Greenshouse Gas Warming – whatever) but unfortunately it is what it is – a THEORY.

    All of the AGW is becoming the joke it should be – have a look at this article on a website by “scientists” the “naked scientists” or whoever they are
    http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/articles/article/ocean-acidification/

    An acid attack is the heading? What acid – the oceans of some 1.4 Billion Billion tonnes of salt water is getting attacked by an increase of 100ppm increase of CO2 from the atmosphere?? Please explain the science not fiction.

    CSIRO has some serious problems with its scientists!


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    cohenite

    mnalive@77; the rate of sea level increase is decreasing:

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nOY5jaKJXHM/S3xTTpWSGjI/AAAAAAAAAyk/lWAqvOnb72Q/s1600/Fullscreen%2Bcapture%2B2172010%2B122234%2BPM.jpg

    And as Houston and Dean say:

    http://www.jcronline.org.pinnacle.allenpress.com/doi/pdf/10.2112/JCOASTRES-D-10-00157.1

    “The decelerations that we obtain
    are opposite in sign and one to two orders of magnitude less
    than the +0.07 to +0.28 mm/y2 accelerations that are required to
    reach sea levels predicted for 2100 by Vermeer and Rahmsdorf
    (2009), Jevrejeva, Moore, and Grinsted (2010), and Grinsted,
    Moore, and Jevrejeva (2010). Bindoff et al. (2007) note an
    increase in worldwide temperature from 1906 to 2005 of 0.74uC.
    It is essential that investigations continue to address why this
    worldwide-temperature increase has not produced acceleration
    of global sea level over the past 100 years, and indeed why
    global sea level has possibly decelerated for at least the last
    80 years.”

    One reason may be a corruption of the temperature record.


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    David

    cohenite,
    The article on http://www.jcronline.org.pinnacle.allenpress.com/doi/pdf/10.2112/JCOASTRES-D-10-00157.1

    Journal of Coastal Research 00 0 000–000 West Palm Beach, Florida Month 0000 has no dates, years & I can’t find origin of the research etc?

    But http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nOY5jaKJXHM/S3xTTpWSGjI/AAAAAAAAAyk/lWAqvOnb72Q/s1600/Fullscreen%2Bcapture%2B2172010%2B122234%2BPM.jpg site is good info?


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    tom jones

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKlKl6uY2gw&feature=player_embedded#at=94

    Comments from the No Carbon Tax Rally in Sydney, Australia


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    cohenite

    David@82; I’m having trouble posting but the details of the Houston and Dean paper are here:

    http://www.jcronline.org/doi/abs/10.2112/JCOASTRES-D-10-00157.1


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