Image by Anwarul Quddus Sikder from Pixabay
By Jo Nova
The thrill of EV ownership in Australia has worn off before it even started
In news that will shock no one, except the Minister for Weather himself, Labor’s plan to have nine out ten new car drivers in an electric vehicle by 2030 has crashed into a mountain of apathy. The latest estimates from the Australian department in charge of guessing these things is that EVs will only be 27% of new car sales by then, not 89%. And the modeling assumes EV’s will be exempt from the usual tariffs and taxes, but finds most Australians would rather pay the extra taxes and get themselves a planet-wrecking petrol-head machine anyway.
Of course, in climate maths, 27% is practically the same as 89% because EV’s may not reduce emissions at all, but since the push to force them on us has nothing to do with carbon emissions, the theatrical chasm in their big plans is a major loss.
That and the dilemma of who will pay for the back up batteries to stabilize the windy wobbly national grid if car owners don’t?
By 2030, after years of propaganda and coercion, electric cars are only expected to be 5% of the national fleet of small vehicles.
Of the developed world, Australia is possibly the stupidest country to own an EV in
With the lowest population density, longest hottest roads, and soon to be most unreliable expensive power, there’s a reason Australians have been slow to buy expensive, short range, inflammable machines.
In The Daily Mail today we hear that Belinda Cleary drove a $90,000 EV from Sydney to Melbourne and it cost 30% more in fuel and took 25% longer than her petrol car. The round trip cost $210 in fuel instead of $140 in petrol. So you can pay more to pay more and go slower as well. What’s not to like?
Having wrecked Australia’s cheap energy grid by turning it into a giant cyclone-and-flood talisman, the irony is that electric cars can’t get cheap fuel anymore. The hapless Belinda needed to stop six times to refill on the 1,800 kilometer return trip, and spent three and a half hours enjoying the roadhouses of the Hume Highway. On the way home, someone walked near her car and accidentally spooked the charger into stopping, thus creating an unexpected delay. Oh the complexities of electrical ecology?
But on the bright side, the car didn’t kidnap her, and she points out that all the 350kW charging stations were working. If one had been on the fritz she couldn’t have made it to the next fast charger, so she would have had an instant holiday stopover in Tarcutta. The slow 50 kW chargers are so slow drivers need an overnight stay.
And of course this major highway is the busiest and most well serviced interstate route in Australia. Everywhere else is going to be worse.
Premature Electrification is a fizzer just like “Laboring” with Chinese Fair Trade. They are pandering to Australian weak woke leadership.
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In my neck of the woods there are a number of “free” charging stations….not one of which I’ve ever seen being used.
Meanwhile there are six…SIX…new fossil-fuel stations scattered about. Two in town…one 30 ks south…..one 60ks south….one 75 ks south east, and one about 40ks north. All going gangbusters with about 10-12 pumps apiece.
So; EVs no demand. Fossil-fuels; Big demand. No need for any further investigation.
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And then from the same newspaper (dated May 23):
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12044901/EVs-Australia-Taking-Tesla-Model-3-Performance-roadtrip-Sydney-Canberra-Melbourne.html
“The entire fuel cost of the trip was almost the same price as our Good Friday Macca’s feed, coming in at $56 for the whole 2,500km.”
“I’ve been lucky enough to own or drive some amazing cars – the Audi S3 was the best car I’d owned since my 16v Golf GTI, but there’s been Lotuses, Lancias, Jaguar XKs, MG Turbos, Alfa Romeo Cloverleafs and BMW Ms along the way. None of them even comes close to the experience of driving my Tesla.
Against all the odds – and I was seriously concerned about the build quality and refinement of the Tesla – it’s surprisingly the best car I’ve ever owned.”
Like, how do you reconcile this article with the one above? I dont know what to believe!
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Those comments are typical of the Tesla fanboy types. EV zealots are usually also climate change zealots, so you are dealing with a Dill, so any claims need to be looked at closely. The shortest driving distance Sydney to Melbourne is about 865 k’s. Reading the article, it doesn’t add up…even if it was a round trip, that only totals 1730 k’s…so where does the 2500 k’s come from ?
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Mr. Glenn: On the button. I did not read the article, just seeing the list of cars this rich kid drove was enough. Saying it’s the best car ever isn’t fully expressive, it had to be “surprisingly” the best car ever. The mendacity of the Tesla fanboy is most striking to me.
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Funny to see how Tesla screwed him over on the trade-in moments before the deal or lose it was to happen.
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Ronin,
Teslas have just seen discounting of up to 20% . I wonder if the fanboy purchased before that ? He can afford expensive and dangerous toys . The kicker will be when the battery goes – that’s going to hurt .
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OG, wouldn’t you be dirty if you’d just bought one and they dropped the price by 20%.
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A bit of kerb crawling perhaps.
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‘coming in at $56’
So who paid the infrastructure costs to set up charging stations? Who paid for the actual power used? Who paid for the subsidy on the car? Who paid for the roads?
Is this just advanced freeloading by a serial luxury car buyer?
And then answer this question; Having been enticed by freebies who will pay the various waived costs if evs become ubiquitous? What will motoring cost then? I smell great reset and you’ll be happy not travelling more then 15 minutes from home because you can’t afford it.
$56? The figure is probably fictional anyhow. The only way to rexolve the issue at the personal level is to test drive an ev for a very long drive, or know someone who owns one and accompany them on a long drive. In other words, see for yourself – or don’t buy the hype.
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One day, the politicians will come to realise that Australia is a large country. Pulling in millions of migrants will not make it any smaller.
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“Like, how do you reconcile this article with the one above? I dont know what to believe!”
All that gushing reads just like advertising copy, so it’s clear you’re dealing with a one-eyed zealot. Then there’s the completely OTT attempt to persuade us that he REALLY knows about cars, like a LOT about cars, “I’ve owned all these very special high performance cars!”
Also ponder whether the sort of person who buys an expensive Tesla (plenty money, cares about planet, etc) would have his “Good Friday feed” in a Maccas?
As the saying goes, if it walks like a duck, or in this case smells like duck sh1t …
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Just me or did anyone notice much was made of how quick it was to recharge but no time given for how long it took to drive the journey.
How about he does the trip from Melbourne to Sydney then back again and tell us how many days it took .
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Believe in basic physics and engineering rather than fanboy opinions.
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Yes, different experiences at the same charger, same town.
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Thanks for all your great comments!
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$56 for 2500 km, that’s 44km to the dollar, something isn’t right.
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From the article:
Pepper Finance gave me a year’s free charging on the Evie charger network – which kept the cost of our roadtrip down to just the $56 we spent to top up at a couple of Tesla Superchargers.
Staying at a friend’s remote farm near Yass, we simply plugged it in overnight at a neighbour’s barn
Plus pre-charging at home, the cost of which was not included
This is reminiscent of Blackout Bowens economics – don’t look behind the curtain
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She was trying to charge to 100% every time. Charging speed decreases sharply as the battery approaches 100%. It’s slow and expensive (because you are charged on time and usage) and you’re going to hack off every one in the queue behind you. An Ioniq 5 takes less than 20 minutes to change to 80% on a 350KW charger. I can verify this, I have the same model and colour.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI
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Mr. Simon: Thanks for your first-hand account. Now, have you got a credible source?
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https://globalnews.ca/video/10104776/kicked-in-the-privates-50000-electric-battery-quote/
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When she paid/leased the car she got (ie prepaid) 1 years worth of charging…..
So she already paid for the trip out of her 15,000km that she brought.
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If you think EVs are a fizzier. (Similar to Pfizer) have a look at what the CCP leader had to put up with recently. I’d rather own an EV than be punished the way he was.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABlwYzMxPLs.
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I’d like to think this apparent reluctance to buy EVs is because we Australians are not as stupid as advertised, however I feel it is more to do with cost, especially now with everything getting noticeably more expensive, almost by the day.
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Basically, James, bulldust baffles brains! Governments seem to have perfected that and the never-ending power of repetitive propaganda.
“Do not accept answers because of the status of the person providing the answer. You must think about the question and answer, examining its ramifications and confirming them with evidence and reason in order to understand them.
Is the information from the expert increasing your understanding of the subject or just trying to stop the questions?”
https://principia-scientific.com/how-experts-create-stupidity/
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I think it is the distances we might travel. In the provinces towns can be a long way apart and when you get where you want to go it may be a small town with limited charging facilities.
I said that we “might” want to travel long distances. Car manufacturers advertise travelling off the beaten track in your new truck or towing a boat you will never own, and we might be impressed but when we buy it we take the kids to school in it. Same with travelling the highway. We may not do it as often as we imagine but we want to be able to do so if we want to.
I have a country mindset never having lived in a big city.
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The possession of the freedom to do it, should you decide to do so, is what’s at stake.
Freedom.
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The motor vehicle industry here survived on low profit margins mainly because of three levels of government and private sector fleet sales, most Australians buy second-hand vehicles and the average age I understand is over 10 years.
Consider a second-hand EV and condition of the battery pack limiting range and trade-in value if 10 years could be achieved before the batteries had to be replaced at an unaffordable price for most people.
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I’v maintained from day 1 that these solutions to a non existent problem would be a dismal failure in due course, and it appears to be happening quicker than I thought. What will be interesting to watch is how the car manufacturers will handle this financially…and what to do with slow moving stock.
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So funny that all these people who care so much about the environment and it’s natural wonders can no longer risk taking time off the highway to “smell the flowers” … because if they do, they won’t reach their next charging station or they’ll have to do another 45 minute stop to top up.
Remember the days when new technologies actually made life easier?
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In my neck of the woods Charters Towers has an annual Gold Field Ashes when thousands of cricketers descend on the town. Such a sleepy hollow would not have the charging facilities to cater for the travellers’ EVs.
The same risk would exist for Tamworth Country Music Festival, the Birdsville races, the Boulia Dirt and Dust Festival, the Ewan races. Small towns love to have a big weekend occasionally to let people know they exist.
The Mayor of Boulia once said “There’s nothing to see in Boulia, but you’ve got to come and see it”.
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Should add that even a wedding could overtax charging facilities in a small town where guests have travelled hundreds of k’s to get there.
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In a rural part of NSW recently (not Tarcutta), I had let my tank get a bit low and then discovered that the village’s only service station was out of diesel. Without enough fuel to get to the next service station, I had to wait half an hour for the NRMA to come along with a can of fuel. I felt pretty stupud, of course, but the point is that half an hour is a much smaller price to pay than an overnight stay in Tarcutta. (Tarcutta’s OK, it’s the loss of time that hurts).
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Jo, great article again. In spite of the hype on EVs I think there are a lot of negatives. Apart from the described ones in your account, the real story is the pollution surrounding every element in the production. From the huge amount of mining and pollution to produce one battery to what happens at the end of the battery life. Then there is the price and insurance costs, plus not so funny stories from US of people trying to sell them second hand. EVs are the worst invention in decades.
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The more people learn about EVs, the less they want to buy them. The more insurance companies learn about EVs, the less they want to insure them. I predict EVs will be gone by 2030.
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So how do we pay for our repairs to our roads IF we were stupid enough to buy these TOXIC EVs?
EVs are much heavier than normal ICE cars and we can be sure that the clueless Albo and Bowen loonies will be trying their best to make our more useful and cheaper ICE cars more expensive.
Just wait and see what the Labor and Greens’ parasites dream up to make our future ICE driving much more expensive.
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Even their ABC is warning of the dangers of TOXIC EV waste.
But can they tell us how to pay for new roads and repairs to the existing highways if we are stupid enough to keep buying these heavy TOXIC EV disasters?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-01/electric-vehicle-battery-waste-projections-uts-research/102417114
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Neville. Almost four years ago as I watched the stranded bushfire-encircled holiday-makers…and locals….on the far Sth Coast of NSW, and East Gippsland across the state border….I was pondering what the go would be if they were mostly dependent on EVs to escape.
72 hrs for everyone to charge up? People with half-charged cars fleeing and then getting stuck when the batteries went flat somewhere up the road? etc etc. Why would anyone….even a leftist inner-city numbskull….risk their lives by getting an EV, FFS!
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From ‘safe and effective’ to ‘cheap and clean’, the morons never learn and never think to independently investigate the claims. EVs at best will be a niche market for rich city folk, they are of no use whatsoever to the common man, or woman.
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Hey hey Steve, there may be billions of us, but please, never EVAAAH! call us ‘common’ – from a 3-litre diesel driver.
The scary thing about holier-than-thou EV owners is they know-not-what those shiny, reflective, mirror-like things, attached to either side of their ‘vehicle’ and one right in front of them on their windscreen, are for: they’ll simply, and silently, reverse out of the carpark and damn the torpedoes – or any other vehicle or small child or bus/tractor/truck that may be behind them…
Talk about reducing carbon footprints.
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Greg. Two EV-driving morons are taking a stroll…when they spot a wallet on the footpath. One says “hey let’s see if there’s a driver’s licence in so’s we can return it to the owner”.
The other one picks it up and sees a small mirror in it…then says “no licence, but there’s a photo, and he looks mighty familiar” at which the first EV-Moron grabs the wallet and looks into the mirror and laughs very condescendingly.
“Of course the bloke looks familiar to you ya dill…It’s ME!”
And THAT is the level of intelligence…especially when it comes to understanding mirrors….we’ve ALL come to expect from every EV-sucker, is it not?
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Of course, the Australian Government and its supporters of the Left don’t believe anything should be voluntary.
If it won’t happen naturally, they will force the “transition” on us by even more heavily taxing combustion vehicles and their fuels and banning the sale of new ones.
People will hang on to old vehicles as much as they can and there will be cottage industries to make home-made ethanol to power petrol cars and vegetable oil for diesel vehicles.
Australia will become like that Leftist paradisee of Cuba and their fleet of 1950’s American cars still in daily service.
And for EVs, where will they power come from to charge them all as we continue to shut down the power stations, our only true source of power? In that sense, EVs may be regarded not as “internal combustion vehicles” like regular cars but “remote combustion vehicles”.
Ultimately, the true objective is for non-Elites not to own cars at all and to live as serfs/slaves in “15 minute cities” where you can walk everywhere or stay at home if you are mobility impaired (the utopia is only for the young and fit, the rest get euthanised). These concepts are fully connected and part of the plan.
The following video by Laura Aboli is the best summary I’ve heard of what the Elites and their vast slave army of useful idiots of the Left are doing and intend to do to us (4 mins).
https://youtu.be/B3VPLIIWC_0
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Australia has not yet introduced the “LEZs” (Low Emission Zones) , or “ZEZs” (Zero Emission Zones), that are common in the UK and Europe.
It is inevitable they will be introduced, at least to the cities eventually, , which would force the adoption of EVs and or Hybrids …possible the even dummer Hydrogen fueled vehicles. ?
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its not euthanasia. It is MAID. Medical Assistance in Dying. In Canada the reasons for MAID keeps getting longer and longer!
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longest hottest roads just about says it all … but the townies only live from Block to block ….
would UK rural winding roads up in the hills be any better ? and if it’s all as good as the change to VHF / FM with reduced MW power for our radio reception, it’ll go places! … and where are we now ? DAB. where are we heading for? 1st class post costs an arm and a leg and Delivery takes about as long as growing a new one!
Shank’s Pony has to be bred first.
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I’ve often used the Sydney-Melbourne-Sydney round trip as an example of the uselessness of EV’s outside the inner cities. (Even in the outer suburbs, constant traffic jams risk an EV being stranded with a dead battery).
Consider:
1) travelling about 5-6 hours at 100-110km/h on the Hume will consume a large part of battery power as little or no regenerative braking will occur;
2) adding three adult passengers + luggage will add to the dead weight load on the battery;
3) travelling at night will add the consumption from headlights/tail lights at the least;
4) travelling in winter at night with 3 passengers will add the consumption of heating and air con, plus the likely use of radio or CD/MP3 player
I often do this trip in my ICE Golf, sometimes with all those factors simultaneously. I generally stop once for fuel (perhaps 15 minutes, depending on the checkout queue) and once again as a comfort stop.
EV’s cannot match this in any way and their proponents know it – so they resist and avoid talking about those factors. In the end, the real opposition to my questions here is: “Too bad … don’t travel longish distances”.
This is where the vindinctive Bowen is heading. One can only hope for karma to appear in this lifetime. It seems that Elbow has lost too much gravitas now to reign Bowen in.
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There was talk on the radio station I was listening to yesterday, that EV owners could have the EV being charged in the early afternoon from the solar panels on the roof (if the sun is shining of course), then they could use the power from the EV battery to provide power to run the house during the night when the sun isn’t shining.
The problem is that reduces the times during which the EV is available for transport. Also a very expensive solar battery.
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And solar power peaks when EVs owners are at their place of work. Note, I didn’t say “at work” but “place of work” because many EVs are owned or given to senior public serpents as part of salary packaging and it would be hard to describe what they do as useful work.
So, it is not possible to charge most EVs from domestic rooftop solar and in any case, few, if any, such systems are large enough to fully charge an EV in the two hours or so hours solar is peaking on a sunny day in summer. At best you’ll get a small top up charge.
And in other seasons, forget about it. You have to revert to remote combustion at the coal power station.
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/act-government-moving-public-servant-fleet-to-evs-will-slash-running-costs
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That’s just laughable. Have they done calculations of the energy consumed vs the potential energy input?
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The Left don’t do calculations (well, only calculations to destroy us).
The Left subscribe to post modernism, so if you believe something to be true, then it is. So if you think any reasonable, affordable and practical numbers of solar panels can charge your EV, then it becomes true. Even if practical experience shows it isn’t.
That’s why our fantasy land of the Australian Capital Territory (like your Washington DC) and fully infested with public serpents, politicians abd other assorted parasites, really believes they are running on 100% “renewables”. It’s nothing more than an accounting trick.
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I can just see it, ” Sorry boss, won’t be in until midday, my car didn’t charge last night”.
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Boss, “So cycle in. It only takes 15 minutes”.
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🙂
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There is a social downside to that –
One bloke who used to cycle in like that was unofficially known as “Smelly *-*-*-“.
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Good ripost Gee Aye…
I’m currently watching the rain tumbling down outside my window, thinking how marvellous the idea is you’ve come up with. Maybe I can balance my laptop on my head like a flat umbrella whilst peddling, eh wnat?
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I’ll chip in to buy you a rain jacket.
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Sorry Sergeant of Highway Patrol, the last Officer who drove the EV forgot to plug it in after his shift.
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Without knowing the actual rooftop area of a Tesla, I would say that it would be equivalent to about two solar panels, which is 610 watts maximum. Given that my panels only return an average daily power of 67% when the Sun is shining, the best that could be expected is 410 watts/hour, or 3.2 kWh over an 8-hour day. How can that recharge an EV while at work?
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Well some time ago a regular blogger leftist bragged that she would buy an EV and charge it at home overnight using solar panels.
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Good idea!
Solar –> Battery –> Battery
Next up .. Hybridization kits for EVs
(Turn your frunk back into an ICE machine)
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Graeme,
Be a good “Warmist “please! I’m sure you could fit a wind turbine on the roof as well🤪🤪
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The wind turbine would turn rapidly if you were driving fast! In fact you could market the EV plus wind turbine as a perpetual motion machine!
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Great idea! Bet it’s faster thsn the Mars Rover. Might even go further than 1 km per month
(Pity they didn’t put wind turbines on Mars robots).
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For an EV there are myriad solutions, such as charging the battery when the sun is shining, travelling when re-charging queues are short, balancing vehicle and house loads, not using A/C on long journeys, etc, etc.
For an ICE vehicle, you just fill the tank at a service station.
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Then there are solar panels on car roofs.
Each year the world solar challenge is run from Darwin to Adelaide.
https://worldsolarchallenge.org
According to the website, it’s purpose is to to push the limits of technological innovation and travel the outback in a vehicle powered only by the energy of the sun.
Not very successfully apparently, since it has been running since 1987.
I couldn’t see anything in the website about all the support crew and ICE vehicles required to enable each vehicle to complete, or about transport to Darwin of vehicles and support crews for all over the world to compete, and return to their home bases from Adelaide.
It was in the news a few times a number of years ago, but that seems to have dropped off now.
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This may be of interest…The World Solar Challenge also had a major problem this year… (a fact which is not publicised, if at all by the media)…
Many of the the solar/battery vehicle entrants failed to complete the 3 course stages in time… Culprit blamed was the wind.
Eg. “winds prevented all five entrants in the class from completing the 650km sprint from Coober Pedy to Alice Springs in time, organisers announced the results would be based on the standings from the previous checkpoint at Tennant Creek.”
and:
“heavy winds during the event meant many of the competing teams were unable to complete the challenge stages in their allotted times, with the conditions putting a toll on the vehicles’ batteries.”
https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/2023-bridgestone-world-solar-challenge-winners/
It seems that after 36 years, the pinnacle reached of WSC solar/battery vehicle innovation, has now been blown away by the wind.
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I understand that to do this(use the car battery as an external power source)will INSTANTLY void the car warranty!!!!!
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The ‘not buying’ thing is going to increase, it will be interesting to see how far they drag the dead horse.
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Really ?…not much sign of it yet ..!
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As usual we are behind the N America/EU/UK curve, but we shall get there soon, especially with our nation being almost uniquely unsuited to this farcical means of transport.
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“the first half of 2023”
Wait until the interest rate hikes take full effect.
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Dont take my word for it ..
https://www.ev-volumes.com/
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Note though how they say “Global EV sales continue strong” and then they give you the statistic not for EVs, but for EVs and plug in hybrids which also run on petrol. Why not the statistic just for EVs?
Consider whether it’s likely that most of that increase would be made up by the plug in hybrids, and not the EVs.
And consider also, whether the statistic is deceptive in other ways. If you torture the data enough, it will always confess.
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EV sales were only 3.8% of the total car sales in 2022, not much of an increase from 2021.
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“Electric vehicle (EV) sales have surged in Australia this year with more sold in the first half of 2023 than in all of 2022.”
Would be good to have absolute values. And, compare those with ICE sales.
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“With the lowest population density, longest hottest roads, and soon to be most unreliable expensive power, there’s a reason Australians have been slow to buy expensive, short range, inflammable machines”
Sums it up very nicely.
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Not that CO2 matters (in a negative way) but consider the false claim that it does.
It is far more efficient and less CO2 proucing to burn a hydrocarbon fuel at the location of its end use such as in a petrol/diesel vehicle, rather than first burn it in a power station, convert it to electricity with losses, change voltage numerous times with losses, then charge batteries with losses then discharge batteries for motive power, with losses.
An honest accounting of CO2 would show the EVs produce more than combustion vehicles.
And the extra CO2 production of remote combustion EVs as compared to internal combustion vehicles is the only way they are saving the planet because CO2 is so good for all our planet’s life forms.
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Maybe/ maybe not ?.. but you cannot burn coal in an ICE !
At the very least , EV use reduces the consumption of oil, which is both an imported resource, and a critical one for many other key products.
Oh !..and then there is that small detail about EVs using less than 25% of the ENERGY per mile than an ICEs…did you factor that into your “Remote combustion” assumption ?
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Que?
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Short answer..
1 ltr of petrol = 9500 Wh and moves an average ice 10 km ..( @ 10 ltr per 100 km)
9500 Wh of electricity moves a typical EV 45 km ( @ 200 Wh per km…often less ! )
..please check the figures .
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That’s what I suspected you were doing.
You’re comparing the (combustion efficiency + mechanical efficiency) of petrol-engined vehicles to the mechanical efficiency of electric vehicles, assuming the same mass, travel speeds and coefficient of drag.
In practice, modern conventionally aspirated petrol engines have a combustion efficiency of around 30%. Small turbo-diesel engines are nearer 40%. Large turbo-diesels do slightly better.
The mechanical efficiency is typically 85 – 90%. This is similar to EVs.
The missing pieces are the combustion efficiency of producing that electricity and the transmission efficiency of the electricity.
OCGT combustion efficiency is around 30%, large turbo-diesels running at fixed speed are better than 50%, and CCGT is around 60%.
Conversion to electricity can be included in that figure, give or take.
Depending on distance and the number of voltage step-up/step-down and AC/DC conversions required, transmission efficiency is typically around 90%.
The end result is that overall fuel efficiency of an EV is somewhere between an ICEV and CIV.
Electrical generation by hydro, wind, solar or fission obviously has different fuel use characteristics.
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The 10 ltr/ 100 km for ice is a pretty typical return for anything other than a tiny hatch. Bigger diesel utes and SUVs will be more !
That is fuel in to kms driven.
Ditto for the EV ,..it is kWh in from the wall socket to kms driven
Both take into account all engine thermal and mechanical efficiencies.
Now , all we need is to go find the real emissions of coal, or gas generation per kWh produced. ?
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Using your numbers …
Diesel @ 10 kWh/ ltr
CCGT at 60% gives 6 kWhe electricity
90% eff to the charger = 5.4 kWh ….= 27 km driver for the EV
Compared to 10 km for the diesel car.
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It’s comparing different things.
The EV’s “kWh in from the wall socket” is the equivalent of a petrol or diesel vehicle’s “kWh in to the gearbox”. For a thermal power source, the combustion efficiency must be considered.
What fuel are you burning in that electric motor? An electric motor converts electricity to rotary motion – the only thermal aspect is heat generated in the windings.
That’s covered by the IEA’s LCoE calculator. https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/levelised-cost-of-electricity-calculator
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Couldn’t reply at the next level down 🙁
Not my numbers, unless I made a mistake.
It’s slightly more energy dense than petrol, but the big advantage is in combustion pressure and temperature.
I probably exaggerated a bit – for CCGT the EV is likely to be a bit better than an equivalent diesel.
However, the 45 km for 0.98 kWh seems dubious, unless the comparison is to a particularly inefficient petrol car. The mechanical efficiency of EV transmissions isn’t that much better. Perhaps it included regenerative braking.
Now, assuming that was 1 kWh/l for the turbo-diesel, you get around 13 km/l in rough terms (1/3 better than the petrol car).
The same 1l of diesel burned in CCGT gives 0.6 kWh of electricity, 0.54 kWh “at the plug” – around 25 km/l at the claimed 45km/0.98 kWh
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Mea culpa – I got the order of magnitude wrong. Yes’ approx 9.5 – 10 kWh/l.
My bad 🙁
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Why the 200 Wh/km for the EV?
The petrol car at 30% combustion efficiency produces 9500 / 0.3 = 2850 Wh at the flywheel.
For the same mechanical efficiency as the EV (200W/km), the petrol car would get 14.25 km/l rather than 10.
Similarly, the turbo-diesel would produce 3800 Wh, and get 19 km/l.
Does regenerative braking really make that much difference?
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That probably includes time stopped in traffic for the city cycle as well.
It would be interesting to see the highway cycle comparison.
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200 W/km is typical of a Tesla Mod 3
Some EVs are 150 W/km or less if driven carefullu.
19 km / litre for a diesel ice is possible but not common..
10 km/ltr is a typical figure for normal driving
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Thanks. It seems to depend on the criteria used, vehicle type, and age of the vehicle.
This Dept of Infrastructure report and this IEA report have more recent passenger vehicles nearer 12 km/l than 10, but 10 seems a reasonable round figure.
At any rate, the EV figures are better than I thought, even allowing for a certain degree of exaggeration.
Which Car has an interesting article as well, but it seems to concentrate on hybrids.
The Green Car Guide web site has some useful figures as well, but a bit hard to compare EVs with petrol or diesel for out-of-town driving. It seems the Hyundai Tucson gives close to the theoretical figure for a diesel, which is pretty good.
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This response flies in the face of documented reality. It reads more as some sort of piety, a statement of belief. Faith even.
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Also air pollution released by local combustion rather than from a remote source. It is almost forgotten in western non-industrial cities but in some parts of the world there are huge health problems due to pollution in densely populated cities.
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Air pollution from a coal electricity generator, can be better controlled and monitored than from a million tailpipes !
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yep
12
Which do you regard as more important, EVs or ending coal and gas generated electricity?
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NOt sure what you mean. Why am I ranking those two things? I don’t know is my best answer.
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“Also air pollution released by local combustion rather than from a remote source. It is almost forgotten in western non-industrial cities but in some parts of the world there are huge health problems due to pollution in densely populated cities.”
A lot of that could be attended to by banning 2-stroke vehicles and banning the burning of cowpats and twigs.
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true. And enforcing emission standards on non 2-strokes
00
Ask Bosch and VW about that 🙂
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Question is quite simple. If it is impossible to keep a full fleet of EVs charged with solar and wind, are you prepared to maintain HELE coal generators to charge them, or would you prefer to abandon EVs to be rid of coal (and gas), and keep ICE vehicles?
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Not really a choice that is being made is it.
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Actually, the choice is being made, but only implicitly. Coal fired generation is being wound down, and being partially replaced by intermittent solar and wind generators. At the same time, governments are decreeing that EVs are to be the way of the future.
At some point, the choice will become explicit. What are your plans for that time?
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….That is not the choice…..EVs are a non issue, needing only a minor fraction of the electricity generation.
The real question is what will we do when it is obvious that the grid cannot keep our lights and heating running , with just wind and solar generation ?
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Chad
The (hoped for) proliferation of EVs will hasten that day. Their absence will delay that day. Retaining coal fired generators might avoid it.
Choose wisely.
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“EV use reduces the consumption of oil, which is both an imported resource, and a critical one for many other key products.”
I thought Australia produces oil, but it is sold at world parity prices which was bought in by a Labor Government back in the 1980s
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Hi Map,
It was actually the Libs under Malcom Fraser which introduced World Parity Oil pricing.
“The impact of global marketing decisions on national economies was perhaps most vividly demonstrated when oil price fixing in the late 1970s by the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) sent shock waves around the world. The Fraser government’s 1978 decision to price local oil at world parity was in effect a new growth tax.”
https://www.naa.gov.au/explore-collection/australias-prime-ministers/malcolm-fraser/during-office
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Most of the fuel oil products used in Australia,… petrol, diesel , Avgas, etc , ..are imported from refineries in Singapore.
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Just think of the disruption if 90 percent of vehicles were EV (or even 27% ) and Bowen’s renewables go on strike for a few inconvenient hours.
The shit will hit the fan anyway in around 15 years when no one is able to repair/replace worn out wind turbines because of costs and lack of materials.
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John Cadogan gives us his thoughts on the new NRMA charging station at a remote spot on the Sturt highway .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rthM-JX8LEg
Language warning !
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This bloke is great and his factual forensic manner impossible to deny – but one small point, I drive the Sturt Highway a lot – the entire length from near Gawler north of Adelaide to past Wagga in NSW. I was interested to know where this station is – I had never noticed it. That’s because it’s on the Stuart Hwy, south of Alice Springs.
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Except he’s a climate spook. Calls our lot “mouth breathers”.
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A great video, but I think his 200 kWh output is over-generous. Using my own panel outputs as a guide,, I calculate the 20 kW of panels to output only 120 kWh each sunny day. But I think his 20 kW panel output is correct, because it looks like 60 panels.
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And we did go through EV tyre cost the other day but I missed the bit about just how quick an EV tyre wears out .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCeH2HO7TJE
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You can be certain that one or more Australian Governments will take the worst of the worst ideas from overseas and make them even worse.
So, this seems to have been missed, from 2022.
And this:
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“Infrastructure Minister Rob Stokes warned the city risked falling behind other global metropolises ”
Keeping up with the Joneses, much.
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Risk falling behind? Why don’t they try LEADING for a change, follow common sense and real science and drop all the woke b#llsh#t.
How much better off this country would be.
At the moment, it seems we are only good at leading from behind.
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“risked falling behind”, just a bunch of lemmings. Keep up, where’s that cliff …
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THIS future averted then:
https://64.media.tumblr.com/5ba3fc89e89cb527eb78c4c60b40bae8/edbc85a1d252fc89-bd/s1280x1920/d50867d6bb48680d98217c6ef2c1a74f0b892a3f.jpg
A transformer shortage?
California facing eletrical transformer troubles as new homes continue to be built
California is facing a new energy crisis, and this time, it could impact the state’s goal of building more than 2 million new homes by 2030.
As new homes are built in California, there’s more need for electrical transformers that provide power to neighborhoods — but right now, they’re in short supply.
“What we’re actually seeing is anywhere from two years to three years to get a transformer,” said Dan Beans, the CEO of Roseville Electric.
Beans said he can only get a fraction of the transformers his growing city needs.
“We had ordered 500 transformers during 2022 and we had received 18 of them,” he said.
Now, utilities are warning developers that they may not be able to provide power to new homes and businesses.
“We did meet with the building industry association and said we might run out in the next month or two,” Beans said.
https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/california-facing-eletrical-transformer-troubles-as-new-homes-continue-to-be-built/
No power for homes means no power for EV’s, aka EWE’s (Electric White Elephants)
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“As new homes are built in California, there’s more need for electrical transformers that provide power to neighborhoods — but right now, they’re in short supply.”
And this in the USA, where they still make stuff, unlike here.
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Albanese government’s green energy crusade is ‘collapsing’
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EVs become the latest ‘looming failure’ in Labor’s energy policy ‘trainwreck’
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“Labor’s EV strategy predicted to fail despite ‘tenfold increase’ in sales
Story by Sky News Australia • 21h”
Oh dear, what a shame !!!
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again, China and India etc., are replacing old Coal Energy plants that smoke up Beijing in the Winter, to where you can’t see the otherside of the street. So it’s not as if they are building out more coal plants, but they are replacing them with modern smoke stack scrubber technology. And if you think CO2 is a net bad? You’re a zombie, academic, club of rome, well funded thru “non profits”, and grants, loon. Who thinks gaming the system is a win, narcissist, come what may.
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While I’m suitably sceptical about EVs, what sort of car is supposed to be able to do that round trip on $140 of fuel, (assuming, say, $2/L petrol)?
00
Yes, I thought the same thing. Even at an efficient 7L/100km, an 1,800km round trip would use 126L of fuel.
To only pay $140 for that, you’d have to be paying “genuine 1970s prices”.
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She’s not counting the starting load of fuel, only top ups on the trip. The rest of the maths was too hard for her lol.
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“She’s not counting the starting load of fuel’
No need to count the start load of fuel as long as the tank is filled at the end of the trip.
I own a diesel car the same size as a Corolla, and it cost me $107 to fill it recently, so she should have had three fills, one between Melbourne and Sydney, one at Sydney and one halfway back.
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Best I have got from CBR to SYD is 5.7l/100 in an SP25 Mazda 3. I don’t get this on the way back though and usually see about 6.5l/100.
I test drove an i30 diesel years ago and asked the salesman what that 5.6 on the display was when we got back. He said that was the litres per 100 of the test drive. 5.6l/100 around town… I imagine that on the hwy it would be crazy low.
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Sky news last night showed the destruction of remote, wilderness areas in QLD, just to supply more of their TOXIC so called Green energy.
But I’m sure the Labor and Greens’ parasites will be pleased with yet another TOXIC train wreck and much higher energy costs for the poor Aussie taxpayers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65dxBmK3K8E
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The lunacy of the green agenda.
“New data indicates that a short list of high-emitting, high-income nations are overly reliant on land use to offset their emissions …
… the University of Melbourne and Climate Resource have considered new data in an updated Land Gap Report Briefing Note, including almost 40 updated country climate pledges and low emissions development strategies. It confirms that countries will need around one billion hectares – larger than the area of the entire US – to implement land-based climate mitigation pledges.”
https://www.thecanary.co/global/2023/11/21/land-gap-report/
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I’m not sure about the stuipdest place to own an EV. I don’t fancy the idea of keeping a EV warm inside, or being stuck with a flat battery, anywere in a northern winter.
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Yes, Fred, exactly.
In areas of Canada, it can be necessary, in the winter months, to use a heater for the engine block to ensure you can get going in the early morning. This can persist for several months (Dec-Mar). I cannot see how an EV would survive those conditions. What is battery performance like in continuous temps of -12 – -20 Deg C ?
It comes back to the reality that EVs are only suitable for the rich, middle classes, who live in Cities, in moderate climates. In the real world they’re shite.
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More barking mad idiocy from our Net Zero groups and how we can power Australia with renewables after 2030.
Of course we all know that we could reduce Aussie co2 emissions to ZERO and we’d have ZERO impact on our weather or climate, FOREVER. And it would cost us TRILLIONS of WASTED $ by 2030 and again many more TRILLIONS $ WASTED by 2060.
Here’s their time-line and link.
“How fast can Australia decarbonise its electricity system”?
“The modelling suggests it’s cost effective for Australia to rapidly replace fossil fuel generated electricity with renewable sources and go beyond its current target of generating 82 per cent of its electricity from renewables by 2030”.
“Coal-powered electricity generation disappears before 2035 in our 1.5°C scenario, and by the late-2030s in our well-below-2°C scenario”.
“Around the same time period, gas-powered electricity generation is greatly reduced”.
“By 2050, gas-fired power stations contribute less than 1 per cent of total generation, and would be used for what is known as ‘firming’. This gas is not used day-to-day – it switches on infrequently, on the rare occasions that demand exceeds supply, to secure electricity supply to the grid”.
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Here’s the link to their studies.
https://www.climateworkscentre.org/resource/climateworks-centre-decarbonisation-scenarios-2023-australia-can-still-meet-the-paris-agreement/
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BTW “The Conversation” carries the same net zero barking madness and links this month ( NOV 2023) from the above Climateworks centre.
https://theconversation.com/how-could-australia-actually-get-to-net-zero-heres-how-217778
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I was born in a country town and after living in a city for all of my working life I retired and now live in the town that I was born in, Mid Coast New South Wales and I travel intrastate and interstate regularly. I drive a 4WD SUV diesel engine (Euro 5) vehicle current retail price around A$60K, towing capacity new 3.5 tonnes and 350 kg download on tow ball.
For my own satisfaction I researched electric vehicles and several issues turned me off even considering purchase;
* The possibilities to meet my towing needs were few and more than twice the price of a new diesel SUV.
* Towing range was pathetically low and even without a heavy trailer range was at best half compared to my present vehicle.
* Recharging time for an EV was in my view a waste of my time, assuming that a recharging station was available, and in operating condition.
* The potential of exothermic reaction inferno from Lithium ion batteries under the occupant seats worries me.
* The 8 year warranty period and deterioration of range over that period until no dealer would be interested in a trade-in cannot be tolerated.
* Effectively in New South Wales 60-70 per cent of grid electricity is generated from coal fired power stations, some gas generators and even diesel fuelled generators.
Maybe if I was living in a city and did not undertake long distance travel by road an EV would be acceptable, but not at the prices being charged and noting that the EVs from China are effectively being dumped to buy market share here. Eventually they will be far less competitive.
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Another not-much-talked-about issue that hits EV owners who want to tow is the design of most charging stations, which simply aren’t designed to allow owners to charge while still hitched. There isn’t room for a trailer or caravan, so you have to park up nearby, unhitch, drive over to the charger, charge up for 30mins or more, drive back to your caravan (hoping it’s still there, because it’s now 2am) and hitch it up again.
Hilarious.
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“Gina Reinhardt, who owns millions of farming hectares, said governments need to cap what agriculturalists spend on achieving net zero greenhouse gas emissions to $200,000 – or the entire nation faces dire consequences.
‘Otherwise, farmers will have to leave agriculture, and as a consequence, Aussies will see huge food price increases and fresh food shortages,’ Ms Rinehart said.
Ms Rinehart, who is the executive chairman iron ore exporting giant Hancock Prospecting, said Australia’s agriculture is the ‘envy of much of the world’ but is ‘haunted’ by the cost of climate change policies.”
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Net Zero Economic Prosperity.
40
The electricity from these superchargers sounds extremely expensive. The Ioniq 5 holds 77 kWh of charge, good for let’s say 400 km. Sydney/Melbourne return about 1800km is equivalent to 4.5 full charges, or about 350 kWh. At $210, that is about $1.60 per kWh. That is more than 5 times the price I pay for my home power.
And it is more than $1.60 since she is not including the initial chargeup before departure.
Or have I miscalculated?
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“The thrill of owning an EV (car)”? Perhaps for the weird, “Range anxiety” could be new humiliation kink of performance anxiety for those formally into predicament bondage. There’s none so queer as folk …
I own an EV, but I don’t get charge anxiety. Probably because I built it myself. But it’s not a car, it’s a solar powered kayak. It’s only got a 80 watt polycrystalline panel, but that is set to the maximum charge rate of the dual redundant 18 AH SLA’s.
My EV kayak is great. Pre charged, 15 to 20 Km Range at 5 Kph under overcast skies. Infinite at 2.5 Kph in full sun. It works.
Now think of every home slow charging a Testla or a Pious. 150 Kw. That’s the average electricity usage of 100 homes. The only socially acceptable EV’s are like mine: utterly separate from the grid.
We can’t all have EV cars. The grid weakened by intermittent unreliables cannot cope. Those charging any EV cars from the grid are vile social vandals.
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?? A couple of points. ..
The average distance driven per individual daily in australia is 30 km. .. in an EV that would require 6 kWh of electricity. Charging at 150 kW would need less than 3 mins to add that 6kWh !
Or, maybe they wait until they need a full (60kWh) recharge, and that would take just 25 mins !…
……25 mins once in 10 days !!
Until there is a SIGNIFICANT % of EVs on our roads ( 30+ % ?) ..they will not have a noticeable impact on power supply
Also, as it will take some many years (15+) before we even get to that point, by which time power generation will be very different , and many of these EV owners will also have RT solar to charge from.
00
My entire house is only allowed to take 20kW off the grid, absolute maximum. There’s an 80A fuse permanently installed to make sure I don’t cheat. I doubt anyone runs a 150kW charger.
I also checked the average Australian household electricity consumption and it’s 15kWh per day … with variation depending on many things including availability of gas, local climate, number of people, etc.
Adding a 6kWh recharge is about 40% extra for the household … with two cars that’s 80% and if both parents drive two cars isn’t unusual. Going to EV almost doubles the household energy consumption. Not trivial at all.
00
Tel,..
You are correct that adding that 6kWh to a household will add considerably to their daily demand,…
…..but remember , there are currently less than 1% of cars that are EVs, which probably means that only 1% of houshold demands will increase by that 40% ..
…so that gives us 0.4% increase in electricity demand……hence,…TRIVIAL !
Of course, in 10-15 yrs time when we may have 20% EVs,….that demand might be increased by 8% ?….. Still not dramatic considering the possible increases to grid generation in that time, and the increased adoption of more RT solar / home charging
But we would have reduced our oil consumption by 20% and hopefully replaced it with more Gas generation or even Coal !👍
PS…. I do not think anyone was suggesting charging at 150kW at home !
That is just a typical public charger output.
00
Tesla Introduces Innovative Congestion Fee System to Streamline Charging Station Traffic
As the provider of over 50,000 global supercharging stations for electric vehicles, Tesla is introducing a novel congestion fee system aimed at optimizing traffic flow at its charging stations.
Diverging from idle fees that charge drivers on a per-minute basis for lingering at a charging point after a full recharge, congestion fees are designed to deter individuals from fully charging their vehicles during peak station usage.
This fee comes into effect only when charging stations experience high demand, and a vehicle’s battery is already charged beyond 90 percent. Drivers will have visibility into congestion fee zones on their vehicle’s touchscreen, and a five-minute grace period will prevent minor fees for those who are slightly delayed in retrieving their vehicles.
Engadget reported that the new system of Tesla will initially apply to specific stations across the US, with a fixed cost of $1 per minute. Tesla has yet to disclose pricing details or a rollout plan for locations outside the US.
https://www.techtimes.com/articles/298941/20231121/tesla-introduces-innovative-congestion-fee-system-streamline-charging-station-traffic.htm
Performancerange anxiety just got worse!In essence it’s rationing…
30
They want to be able to control you, yes you will conform or else . .
00
I wonder what portion of EV’s are purchased by private owners, as compared to corporate and government sales.
10
Hi Jo,
Question:
Further to my question at CIS event last night do you (or anyone) know what the Government’s green transition Business Plan is, with respect to:
1. The total amount of renewable generating capacity required, taking into account the annualized supply that the said renewables can be actually deliver, to meet current demand.
2. What will be total cost of power generated by renewables per megawatt hour including all infrastructure that was necessary to be constructed to be used for renewable electrical power supply?
or to put is simply if I want an average of 1 megawatt hour per month for 1 year how many megawatts of renewables generating capacity would I need, and what would it cost per month for a full year taking into account the different seasons and locations in Australia.
Wonder what a Royal Commission would discover? Imagine Ministers explaining their policy “under oath”. 😱🤡
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“And of course this major highway is the busiest and most well serviced interstate route in Australia.
Everywhere else is going to be worse.”
Which would seem to be the plan…
20
The article in todays ‘Australian’ (‘Labor’s 2030 EV target ‘out of reach’ by Jess Macolm) covering this has the same information. However it includes on comments by Bowen.
One of his comments actually is about countries gazetted in 1992 as ‘developing’ should not be able to claim the same classification for ever.
This is regarded as a shot over China’s bows and the comment interprets the remarks as being a claim China must be expected to do more about its emissions.
Now, what was Morrison’s big sin with China? He called for an investigation of Wuhan and the source of COVID19. Have Bowen and Albo fallen out or something.
All being as they are, with Albo pandering to Xi like a lapdog, just how is Xi going to take Bowen’s comments? Will Albo ‘shift Bowen to a new portfolio to
appease Xi? What is the difference to the way Albo reacts with Xi to Trump just saying Xi was a bright lad? Trump being Trump was almost run out of town for
saying such a thing, even though the fact was he had Xi and North Korea very quiet.
Why don’t the Australian media point out that, apart from the problems with EVs, many companies are dropping out of their production currently. Similarly,
China appears to be the manufacturer of choice, but it uses fossil fuels and slave labour to gather the materials to do the job. Apart from the vehicle itself, are many companies realising that apart from saving nothing re CO2 in their production, the bigger problem is to their reputations eventually when activists start really
venting on the slave labour problem? Perhaps Bowen and Albo should similarly regard their futures for pushing EVs at all costs; even using slavery!
20
I have no problem with EVs. I have just come back from China. This city that I was in is full of them. The taxi, a Geerling model, worked really well. They run well – smooth and fast, etc. But that is not the point. The point is that Australia thinks that you can use the state to (again) manipulate a market into operating contrary to the will of the consumers. I think that we will eventually shift to EVs. But, again, that is not the point. Trying to manipulate a market is counter-productive. A market will switch when it is feasible.
The OP stated that Australian consumers are not stupid. I agree. Most of us know when we are being pushed into something that does not make sense and, at least in the Australian content, at this point in time. It may become feasible in the future when we have the capital infrastructure to make their purchase, use, maintenance and charging a worthwhile prospect. Just one charging location in this particular Chinese city had about 10 Tesla charing outlets. But we are not there yet. And we also also require the production of electricity at a price that makes charging the EVs viable (which is most likley going to have to be nuclear).
None of that comes from the wave of the state’s magic wand, no matter how sincere the protagonists, or earnest are the anti-capitalists.
00
China, of course, has lots of coal fired charging stations.
00
“Of the developed world, Australia is possibly the stupidest country to own an EV in
With the lowest population density, longest hottest roads, and soon to be most unreliable expensive power, there’s a reason Australians have been slow to buy expensive, short range, inflammable machines.”
It’s pretty stupid to own them in Canada too, with the cold winter weather draining the battery and the long distances between cities. You simply can’t rely on them from at least October to March.
20
OK, I knew some Canadian was going to challenge me. 🙂
How do we decide which country is the most stupid? Who drives the furthest, on the most unreliable power. Which nation doesn’t even have nukes or reliable rainfall…
Which is worse for battery performance, minus 20C or plus 40C?
20
Hard choice Jo. Both countries have ridiculous ‘leadership’ that will wreck them.
10
One obvious problem with EVs if they become a majority vehicle, will be the catastrophe of the long weekend. The logistics of attempting to provide sufficient chargers or available electricity to charge the mass exodus of vehicles heading out of a city like Sydney is simply not feasible. In a large country such as ours, we will stick with the only workable solution, which is good old petrol or diesel. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either deluded or retarded.
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