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Climate change could stop fish finding their friends

Filed under: Light relief (for a moment til we get back to The solar model)

Not only will your air conditioner make little fish more reckless, but other fish might seriously not be able to find their friends for coffee. I did not make up that headline. Your taxes did.

Note the carefully phrased results:

“Whilst fish kept under normal conditions consistently chose the familiar school, fish reared under high CO2 conditions showed no preference for either the unfamiliar or familiar school.”

If increasing CO2 was a politically-correct achievement, would that same result carry a headline telling us that “Climate Change makes Fish More Confident with Strangers”?

[Press Release] Climate change could stop fish finding their friends

Like humans, fish prefer to group with individuals with whom they are familiar, rather than strangers. This gives numerous benefits including higher growth and survival rates, greater defence against predators and faster social learning. However, high carbon dioxide levels, such as those anticipated by climate change models, may hinder the ability of fish to recognize one another and form groups with familiar individuals.

Scientists at the ARC Centre of Excellence for Coral Reef Studies at James Cook University, Australia, have been studying the effect of carbon dioxide on the schooling behaviour of the tropical damselfish Chromis viridis. Lead investigator Miss Lauren Nadler found that juvenile fish normally require three weeks to recognize their school-mates, however elevated carbon dioxide levels significantly impaired this ability.

Pay attention — here is the test:

Climate change models predict that carbon dioxide levels and ocean acidity will more than double before the end of the century. To investigate if this would affect social recognition in fish, schools were kept under elevated levels of carbon dioxide, similar to those projected for 2100 by models produced by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). Individual fish were then given a “choice test” where they were placed between two schools — one of familiar fish and the other made up of strangers. Whilst fish kept under normal conditions consistently chose the familiar school, fish reared under high CO2 conditions showed no preference for either the unfamiliar or familiar school.

Are the high CO2 fish happy about it? (Did anyone ask them?)

It is thought (but not known yet)…

It is thought that carbon dioxide interferes with the functioning of neuroreceptors in the fish brains. Higher carbon dioxide levels change the concentration of ions (electrically charged atoms and molecules) in the fishes’ blood, altering the way that the neuroreceptors work. This impairs basic senses, such as sight and smell, which are vital for recognition in fish.

Or could it be that fish are more relaxed and less anxious in a higher CO2 world? Perhaps low CO2 stresses them out and they need to cling for company? I have no idea. I’m just sayin’

These results could have serious implications for tropical fish, whose habitat is already threatened by climate change. “Familiarity is an important trait for defence, particularly in a predator-rich environment like a coral reef,” says Miss Nadler. “Since half of all fish species in the world school at some point during their lives, including economically important species, these effects could be critical for species that rely on group-living to avoid predators.”

Society for Experimental Biology

Look, far be it for me to mock the study of fish social events. They need their friends. It’s just hard to take this seriously in a world where  so much is unknown about carbon accounting, (or fish psychology).  This was also a press release that did not mention a paper, or a conference. I’m sure the data is out there.

UPDATE: Sane and sensible science on CO2, fish, coral and marine life can, of course, be found at CO2Science. (h/t John in comments, I meant to add a link to CO2, Global Warming and Coral Reefs: Prospects for the Future, a 2009 report I found very useful.)

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145 comments to Climate change could stop fish finding their friends

  • #
    Colin Henderson

    Because higher ocean temperatures result in increased off gassing of CO2 I take it that global warming is good for fish schooling – do I have that right?

    240

    • #
      Truthseeker

      And if the fish were in the Antarctic, they would be transported to the equator by sea currents which is why global warming is causing more Antarctic sea ice

      The person being quoted is absolutely serious (about global warming causing more Antarctic sea ice) …

      You could not make this stuff up … oh wait …

      100

    • #
      Peter Miller

      I would like to have seen how the term ‘high CO2′ is defined.

      It is a very simple fact, and one that anyone can easily calculate, that if the oceans carry on absorbing CO2 at the current rate, then the CO2 concentration in the oceans will rise by a maximum of approximately one part per million over the next century.

      So, I do not think we should be too concerned about rising fish promiscuity rates in response to increasing CO2 levels.

      Anyhow, it just goes to show how much cash is sloshing around in the ‘climate science’ research troughs, if they can publish such unadulterated BS.

      60

  • #
    Gary

    CO2 promotes diversity!

    220

  • #

    A cure for fish inbreeding found. More good news.

    210

  • #
    • #
      Gary Meyers

      They said that I couldn’t watch the video because of my location (USA).

      41

      • #
        Deej

        If you were to use Torch browser (or Chrome browser) you could install the ‘Hola’ extension. This would then may allow you to choose an Australian proxy thru’ which to view the video ;-) )

        Deej

        20

  • #
    turnedoutnice

    Ah, I’m always a sucker for a damsel in distress……

    90

  • #
    Jaymez

    Even if this study had a modicum of value, it is methodologically flawed because CO2 in the oceans would not increase to 2100 predicted levels overnight, but over 90 years. This would allow many generations of the fish to gradually adapt to the slow increase in CO2 or temperature.

    The damselfish Chromis viridis has a maximum lifespan of about 5 years in captivity, but in the wild where it has to deal with predators I imagine it is much shorter. Which would explain why the gestation period of their eggs is just 2-3 days.

    Maybe the fish were a lot more confident after all the activity surrounding those fish which had extra CO2 pumped into their water continuously versus those fish who weren’t receiving that special attention?

    360

    • #
      JohnM

      Agreed. The alarmists are just fishing. The gullible media is easily hooked.

      170

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        I went out for a walk last night with a group of friends, and one of them turned out to be a dyedin the wool warmist.

        FOr about 1/4 of the walk, we wound up exchanging rather frank and robust views, but the thing that got me was “but how can 99.99% of scientists be wrong…and the IMF…..”

        I said – hey the I*F is basically an economic ext*rt**n outfit….

        Well……off into orbit he went…..

        I said – what about the MWP – it has been engineered out of the hockey stick?

        Nope – apparently the hockey stick is 100% correct.

        How about John Christy showing the AR5 warming models havent predicted accurately the heating?

        Nope…wasnt interested.

        You gotta be kidding me……and this bloke wa sintelligent. He wasnt a scientist ( at least I have a science background ) but I was stunned at the resolute belief.

        It is a religion – you cant be that intelligent and thick-as-a-house-brick blind and it not be a religious-like view….

        Next week I’m taking a copy of John Christys submission to the US senate with me, jsut to back up my claims.

        Scary stuff……no wonder Jonestown happened….

        231

        • #
          Ron Cook

          I had a similar experience. My friend (x’friend?) was a teacher and like me has a BSc in chemistry. I post a lot of anti CAGW stuff on Facebook. He had the audacity to tell me to stop it. He would not debate it, just wanted me to stop the posts.

          Ron Cook
          R-COO- K+

          70

        • #
          scaper...

          Sounds like you could be mistaken, re intelligence. I would put it to you that because he is educated you infer intelligence.

          Education is not intelligence. There is a fair share of educated idiots out there that believe they are intelligent but are incapable of thinking outside their indoctrinated boxes.

          I see it everywhere.

          160

          • #
            Rereke Whakaaro

            Teachers don’t teach. They read from the authorised script. The result is that children learn, but they don’t really understand, they remember enough to pass examinations, but they cannot translate what they have learnt into practical knowledge.

            As one of my Professors once said, “The more detail you acquire about a subject the less you can appreciate it, in its totality. For example, you cannot explain how a boomerang works, by taking one apart”. Well, he was Australian.

            Intelligence is the ability to notice connections between apparently disparate things, and also to think in the abstract to develop patterns of events or relationships. It requires the ability to think conceptually, and laterally, and temporarily, and to understand and appreciate the principle of something, without necessarily knowing all of the minute detail.

            Kids who are naturally intelligent invariably have trouble at school. They insist on use the “why?” word, and the “how?” word, and are therefore trouble makers.

            70

        • #
          Safetyguy66

          They are called “deniers” Steve, no point in debating them. In fact there should be laws against denial of “denial”.

          60

        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          … one of them turned out to be a dyedin the wool warmist

          He probably felt a bit sheepish.

          60

  • #
    ossqss

    CO2 is an asphyxiant in high concentrations. The little buggers might have just been a bit dizzy from the CO2 and glass reflections, let alone confused from being plucked out of their environment and dumped into a new one without an eviction notice.

    I agree with Jaymez on the rapid change in environment impact.

    In summary, this experiment was a waste of money and provides zero real scientific value.

    Can we get a refund?

    350

    • #
      iainnahearadh

      ossqss,
       
      Yes mate, it starts about 9000ppm, just ask any submariner, Scuba diver or other personal familiar with mixed gases and having to breath them for extended periods of time.
      However, in both the Triassic and Jurassic, the Planetary Co2 content was around 2400ppm and 1200-1600ppm, respectively.
       
      In both (Triassic and Jurassic) cases, fish not only thrived, but they were huge.
      So was everything else, except for the smaller things, when they weren’t swimming in schools of millions, but no-one wants to debate that argument.
       
      So, let’s have an explanation for that, first.
      I would also like to see a longer term study as to the population and plant-life in a Co2 enriched environment.
      Preferably one based on Triassic (2400ppm – 2600ppm Co2) and one based on it’s poorer cousin, the Jurassic at (1200ppm – 1600ppm Co2).
       
      Then we can decide if Cook University is a Propaganda school or a school of higher learning.
       
      Given that workers who have worked in Greenhouses and Hothouses experience no ill effects and that they commonly have a Jurassic level of Co2 concentration, any argument that enriched Co2 will cause human or animal health problems would seem debunked before it starts.
       
      Providing you examine the facts.

      70

    • #
      Tim

      My thoughts exactly. They would be so confused in a lab setting being blasted with CO2 bubbles that they wouldn’t know if they were Arthur or Martha.

      20

      • #
        David

        they wouldn’t know if they were Arthur or Martha.

        Tim some fish can be both – very confusing for them.

        20

  • #
    John in Oz

    that juvenile fish normally require three weeks to recognize their school-mates

    So, for 3 weeks these juvenile fish run the risk of becoming lost, eaten, taken and abused by ichthyophiles yet still manage to stay with their school-mates. Please explain?

    ocean acidity will more than double before the end of the century

    As the ocean is not acidic, but alkaline, doubling the acidity is:
    2 x 0 = 0

    180

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      And then we understand how the saying

      “You get the govt you deserve”

      came about….

      40

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Sorry…clarification

      I was appalled that people misunderstanding ( misrepresenting ) the basic reality that the opcean isnt acidic…

      60

    • #
      the Griss

      I like to use the term, “becoming less caustic” ….. it seems to annoy them :-)

      The proof that there has been any change in ocean pH is dubious at best.

      30

      • #

        becoming less caustic

        Love it!
        Just like a battery discharging. Wonder how much stored energy the oceans have lost this way?

        10

  • #
    TdeF

    The whole climate change debate, now including the sex life of fish, is based on the STWIGO, Stop The World I Want to Get Off from the 1960s. They insist everything should be average. Average rainfall. Average sunshing. Anything but average should be someone’s fault and must be stopped. So you cannot have a few dry years and a few wet years. You have to have every year the same as every other one. It seems once a century events should certainly never happen, let alone once in a century.

    Of course this is all nonsense. Averages are not guarantees and extreme events are not simply those things which are not average. However now we are denying even change such as CO2 levels, the same changes which are key to the origin of species. If some fish are affected by increased CO2, they will die out. Other hardier fish excited by the new environment will prosper. Even bugs are undergoing continual change, which is why we have problems with super bugs. It is said 99.9% of all species which have ever existed have died out and modern man with perhaps a million years of existence and maybe only societal existence for the last 30,000 years and cities for the last 5,000 and space travel for 50 has yet to show that he can survive even his own inventions.

    My point is that it does not matter if the incredible diversity of the sideways crawling blue tongued Madagascar lizard bug vanishes. In time another creature will take its place in the new niche. It may not be as pretty. New forms of mosquito, bed bugs, fleas will evolve to live off the boom in people and the new landscape. Trying to stop change is as silly as not recognizing it exists and is part of the story of evolution of species and the changing environment.

    Then a million years from now, what species will be dominant on earth?

    One puzzle is what Earth was like when the vast oil fields were created from the detritus of vast lush forests and inhabited by huge dinosaurs. The CO2 must have been much higher and plant and animal life was booming on a scale we can barely imagine. Man’s mammalian ancestors were small scavengers. The basic fallacy of the Greenists is that if you get rid of the humans, the world is saved, but for whom? There is no point a place being really pretty if no one is there to see it, or is that their point?

    So let’s worry about the effect of CO2 on fish. If it goes up, we might a huge boom in plankton and then fish and finally get those giant megalodons which could eat a white pointer as a snack. I wonder if they would be protected too?

    391

    • #
      Popeye26

      TdeF

      Absolutely well said.

      These people that fear change are ALWAYS driving an agenda!

      Without change which these protagonists are saying they want to stop (but NEVER will – because they can’t) the earth and every species inhabiting it is doomed.

      Interesting, that CO2 levels are currently close to being the lowest they have EVER been. If CO2 levels during the age of the dinosaur were what they currently are the dinosaurs would NEVER have existed because the mega plants couldn’t have grown.

      This is why all life forms on earth are so diverse – I struggle to comprehend how supposedly intelligent humans (read warmists/greens/etc) can sprout this BS and expect us commoners to swallow it.

      All I can say – they must be “SPECIAL” people. :-)

      Cheers,

      260

    • #

      They insist everything should be average.

      I wonder how much of the data has been deemed an outlier and replaced with the perfect average thus tharting anyone trying to analyse natural variation.

      One puzzle is what Earth was like when the vast oil fields were created…

      I ask the same question about Saturn’s moon Titan and Neptune’s moon Triton.

      “Climate and atmospheric models of Triton have to be revisited now, now that we have found carbon monoxide and re-measured the methane,”
      http://www.eso.org/public/australia/news/eso1015/

      “Titan is just covered in carbon-bearing material — it’s a giant factory of organic chemicals,”
      http://www.space.com/4968-titan-oil-earth.html

      The basic fallacy of the Greenists is that if you get rid of the humans, the world is saved,

      More likely to end up like those two moons if there is no one to put the CO2 back into the air.

      100

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      I thought that the Greens wanted us (not themselves) to be reduced to the level of medieval peasants. It is worse than we thought….they want to reduce us to groundhogs.

      70

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Actually, if you dig deep enough, the basic reality is the greens view humans as a drain on the planet.

        Their hypocracy is that they havent stopped having kids themselves.

        80

    • #
      Truthseeker

      Averages do not actually exist. You cannot point to anything in the universe and say “that is an average”.

      Average are a mathematical construct that has no basis in reality.

      80

      • #

        Averages do not actually exist. You cannot point to anything in the universe and say “that is an average”.

        Average are a mathematical construct that has no basis in reality.

        And therein lies the rub.

        These people use that word

        average

        like it is the ONLY reference.

        However, when I use the word average with respect to renewable power, I’m absolutely vilified.

        Wind Power has a Capacity Factor of around 30%, (best case here) in other words, over the full year (Industry Standard) they will deliver 30% of their maximum rated power. Now, quite easily, that can be extrapolated down to time basis, well it is anyway, over a full year, so reducing it to a daily percentage is in fact exactly the same thing. So that Capacity Factor of 30% means Wind power delivers its full rated power ….. ON AVERAGE for 30% of a 24 hour day, which is 7 hours and twelve minutes.

        You should read the uproar when I mention only the 7 hours average. They just go ballistic, telling that because those wind towers deliver power virtually across the whole day, I cannot average that out.

        The same applies with Rooftop solar and solar PV plants (13%) or a tad over 3 hours, or even their so called jewel in the crown, CSP (Solar Thermal) which comes in at only 29%, (7 hours) and note that’s lower than for wind power, the same vilification ensues. The same applies when I do the calculations for individual plants.

        Yet when I mention how that’s the same as temperatures, the daily minimum rising to a maximum, and then back down again, and they use ….. average (religiously) well, they then tell me that’s different.

        It would seem to me that hypocrisy knows no bounds.

        Tony.

        190

  • #
    PeterK

    Isn’t this so called study flawed. If I read it correctly, CO2 will increase and cause problems for the little fishies. But if the world is supposed to warm, then wouldn’t the oceans also warm and give off CO2 rather than absorb it? So if this is the case, won’t CO2 be reduced in the oceans and the little fishies will have less CO2 to contend with. Am I missing something?

    Further to CO2, I propose that CO2 is the trigger that causes species to develop. If we ever return to CO2 concentration of around the 6000 ppm mark, then I suggest that many new species will develop as a result of this. And remember, when this happens, you heard it here first!!!

    160

    • #
      JohnM

      Not quite correct. CO2 is always being absorbed and emitted by the ocean. When the ocean is cool it absorbs more and when warm it absobs less. (A check of annual changes in temperature and CO2 show this too.) Should the oceans warm – and that “should” is important – their ability to absorb CO2 will be diminished. The alarmists try to have it both ways – higher temperature and more CO2 absorbed. The greater threat would be cool temperatures and more CO2 in the atmosphere.

      But is that really a threat? Over at http://www.co2science.org there’s a huge collection of material that discusses papers on the impact of reduced pH on marine life. As intelligent people would expect some species will benefit and thrive in a decrease in pH environment and some species will be disadvantaged and threatened by it. On balance there’s more species that will benefit.

      40

      • #
        Ron Cook

        But, if a cold ocean has lots of CO2 dissolved then warming will drive off CO2, basic chemistry. The Volistock ice cores clearly show CO2 atomospheric concentrations rising albeit some 300 to 800 years after the temperature started to rise. See my reply to PeterK re a demonstration I use to my grandkids. These initially incorrectly interpreted ice core data played a part in this whole AGW scam ‘a La’ Mr Gore.

        Ron Cook
        R-COO- K+
        Potassium salt of an aliphatic acid – Born to be a chemist.

        51

        • #
          Ron Cook

          Oooops Vlodistok ??? ice cores.

          10

        • #
          Streetcred

          Ron, I had the CO2/Acidic Oceans discussion with a USA marine biologist. I was astounded that despite his research and great pronouncements on ‘acidic’ oceans, he had little idea of the ocean temperature effect on dissolved CO2. He presented an excellent argument in precision using inaccurate understanding.

          20

      • #

        POST UPDATE: Sane and sensible science on CO2, fish, coral and marine life can, of course, be found at CO2Science. (h/t John in comments, I meant to add a link to CO2, Global Warming and Coral Reefs: Prospects for the Future, a 2009 report I found very useful.)

        Thanks John for the reminder. I had these links open, forgot to put them in…

        10

    • #
      Ron Cook

      PK,

      Basic chemistry. I use a glass of lemonade which I the gradually warm a just little to demonstrate CO2 driven off to my ‘brainwashed’, ooops, educated grandchildren.

      Cheers
      Ron
      R-COO- K+

      82

  • #
    Stuart Elliot

    When they did their stats did they use a Poisson distribution?

    Hake to say it but I think it’s a load of pollocks.

    250

  • #
    Mark D.

    Aw Geez! Here we go:

    “Familiarity is an important trait for defence [sic], particularly in a predator-rich environment like a coral reef,”

    And what are the “predators”? Other fish right? That means CO2 is really good for THEM they’ll have more to eat.

    Additionally, there will be an opportunity for those non-schooling fish to develop rugged individualism and self-sufficiency skills.

    There you go survival of the fittest.

    Who dreams this crap up anyway?

    200

  • #
    Manfred

    Juvenile fish normally require three weeks to recognize their school-mates, however elevated carbon dioxide levels significantly impaired this ability.

    I haven’t read the paper, but it would be fascinating to discover Ms Nadler (PhD student) matched her study fish with controls for IQ.

    How did she establish that the juvenile fish controls are not collective geniuses, or conversely, the intervention fish were not dipsticks?

    Bell curve anybody?

    81

  • #
    old44

    It just had to be James Cook university.
    Was Ove mentioned anywhere?

    81

    • #
      JohnM

      Hasn’t he moved to Uni Qld?

      Maybe the people at James Cook and the nearby and more realistic AIMS were in a better position to prove his claims about the GBR wrong than those in the deep south in Brisbane.

      30

  • #

    So I should bring a CO2 inhaler when I’m chasing the ladies? Maybe burning a few candles in the room would work as well.

    90

  • #
    Greg Cavanagh

    I believe it.

    30

  • #
    Greg Cavanagh

    “t is thought that carbon dioxide interferes with the functioning of neuroreceptors”

    And that is why the dinosaurs died out, class dismissed.

    30

    • #
      Robert

      Sorry Greg, you aren’t getting off that easy. Provide proof of your assertion or the class isn’t going to let you out the door.

      Following a statement that begins “It is thought” with a statement of fact is poor form. No wonder you want to dismiss the class, they might ask you some hard questions that you can’t answer.

      41

      • #
        Greg Cavanagh

        Robert, did notice I was quoting from the article?

        Here’s the rest of the quote: “Higher carbon dioxide levels change the concentration of ions (electrically charged atoms and molecules) in the fishes’ blood, altering the way that the neuroreceptors work. This impairs basic senses, such as sight and smell, which are vital for recognition in fish.”

        If they can do it, I can do it.

        10

    • #
      JohnM

      This begs the question of whether the researchers inhaled much of the gas :-)

      60

    • #
      old44

      The dinosaurs thrived when CO2 was 6000-8000ppm.

      30

      • #
        Graeme No.3

        No they didn’t.
        After the Permian mass extinction (the worst ever), the dinosaurs evolved in the Triassic when the CO2 was around 1000-1300 ppm. They thrived in the Jurassic when the CO2 climbed to 2600 -3300ppm. and in the Cretaceous when the CO2 gradually declined to about 760-1000 ppm.

        Despite hysterical claims that the CO2 rose during the Triassic to roughly 2500 ppm. causing a Hot House Earth, the Triassic seems to have been rather cool. The equally hysterical claims that the oceans turned acid are made by people who don’t know that the White cliffs of Dover (or more correctly the remaining bits) were laid down in the Cretaceous. The Jurassic has always been considered warm and wet with high ocean levels, and the Cretaceous similarly although cooling rapidly at the end.

        see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11395765
        Stability of atmospheric CO2 levels across the Triassic/Jurassic boundary.
        Tanner LH1, Hubert JF, Coffey BP, McInerney DP.
        The Triassic/Jurassic boundary, 208 million years ago, is associated with widespread extinctions in both the marine and terrestrial biota. The cause of these extinctions has been attributed to the release significant amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, which could have led to catastrophic greenhouse warming, but the evidence for CO2-induced extinction remains equivocal. The relative stability of atmospheric CO2 across this boundary suggests that environmental degradation and extinctions during the Early Jurassic were not caused by volcanic outgassing of CO2.

        So, no extinction due to CO2. No warming due to CO2. No acid acidification due to CO2. Would you buy a used carbon tax from these people?

        20

  • #
    Ted

    We should have spent that grant money trying to determine how many CO2 aquifers there are in the ocean pumping out gazillions of ton of CO2 yearly. More CO2 than man has ever made, more than is in the current atmosphere. The fact that we spend money on these dipsy projects shows our desperation to find some pap we can plonk up as a PhD and say look we have increased the sum of human knowledge. Send her back to do a real thesis.

    110

  • #
    DT

    Money money money, send me money, I got a thought on fish.

    80

  • #
    Angry

    A complete list of things caused by global warming….

    http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/warmlist.htm

    GOOD FOR A LAUGH !

    30

  • #
    Yonniestone

    This is a simple case of “Asphyxiation breeding contempt” it’s quite common in the life of fish and is directly comparable to human behavior such as in a nightclub where the CO2 levels reach levels high enough to compel people to interact with people they would normally avoid, the human use of alcohol and drugs is easily paralleled with fish experiencing “Nitrogen Narcosis” when plunging to similar depths.

    70

    • #
      Roy Hogue

      You’re writing comedy now, Yonni? Or are you partaking of the aforementioned alcohol? ;-)

      30

      • #
        Crakar24

        Yes they are all drunk in Ballarat at 9:22 am :-)

        30

      • #
        Yonniestone

        What do you mean NOW, have people actually taken anything I write seriously? ;) , I also don’t drink and considering what I do write that’s a disturbing insight in itself.

        Strangely enough my one (and never to be repeated) gold star from Jo came from a reply to you Roy regarding Plankton I believe, and here we are again.

        I now have a PhD in fish psychology that I acquired from a online school, the course is only good for 5 seconds.

        60

        • #
          OriginalSteve

          Hmmm….the upshot of all this is CO2 is effectively a fish narcotic? Disorientation, psychosis, paranoia…maybe gunga for fish? I wonder if they get the munchies?

          I have this amusing thought of seriously paranoid fish protecting their immaginary stash….

          Oh the gags…..

          HAW!!!!!!!!!

          30

        • #
          Mark D.

          Not sure what you do but I busted a gut with this series of comments!

          Comedy could be a fall back career for you and Roy. In the old days of comedy you’d have a sidekick called a “straight man”.

          These days that gets complicated.

          30

          • #
            Yonniestone

            “These days that gets complicated.” are you suggesting we’re a little light in the fins? ;)

            Might have to try comedy as a career the way work’s been lately, I can’t be any worse than Al Gore.

            50

          • #
            rogueelement451

            There is no plaice for comedy on a scientific website ,also, regarding electric eels There is a program underway to cross breed electric eels with super sized hamsters for every household to be self sufficient in electricity,providing they have enough space for a giant hamster wheel. The tail of the hamster will provide a fixed point for electric car plug,utilising hammies new found potential.

            30

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          Strangely enough my one (and never to be repeated) gold star from Jo came from a reply to you Roy regarding Plankton I believe, and here we are again.

          I now have a PhD in fish psychology that I acquired from a online school, the course is only good for 5 seconds.

          I don’t understand. Did the course only take 5 seconds or did you forget everything after 5 seconds? ;-)

          I remember the gold star but not the subject. Goes to show you how important plankton is to us ordinary humans I guess. But of course it’s very important to those sea critters who depend on it. Did your fish psychology course give you any insight on CO2′s effect on fish; or on plankton for that matter?

          20

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    Given the political left’s attachment to diversity I would think the fish being more comfortable with strangers would be welcomed as a benefit. But what do I know? I’m not a fish so maybe — as blacks so strongly insist in the U.S. that only blacks can speak about blacks (and only approved of blacks) — I’m not qualified to speak about fish.

    Those concerned over this horrible development should be glad I don’t like to eat fish. Give me a good steak any day or a good hamburger on the 4th of July and I’m in heaven. Actually this 4th it will be hotdogs made with 100% Angus beef. I’ll have two or three. The fish will have to worry about themselves.

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    • #
      Roy Hogue

      And someone will come along and disapprove of eating the hamburgers and the hotdogs, not to mention a whole steak. So when there’s no way to win, thumb your nose at the complainers and do things your way. :-)

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        Yonniestone

        There’s nothing wrong with eating the whole steak just not the steaks hole, which by chance is found in hotdogs anyway so enjoy. :)

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    • #
      Popeye26

      Roy,

      The vegetarians and vegans can eat their greens and nothing else all they like – JUST don’t preach to those that like to eat a bit of meat and try to force their opinions onto others.

      There is far too much interference by other people and governments into our lives – desist!!!

      As for Popeye – he likes nothing but a good steak or perhaps roast lamb, chicken, pork or whatever he can get (including a good hot dog as well from time to time).

      Oh, and Popeye does like to quaff down some spinach on occasions too. :-)

      Cheers,

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      • #
        Roy Hogue

        The vegetarians and vegans can eat their greens and nothing else all they like – JUST don’t preach to those that like to eat a bit of meat and try to force their opinions onto others.

        Spot on!

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    • #
      Ron Cook

      I like eating fish so should I be worried about CO2 poisoning or Mercury poisoning?

      Ron Cook
      R-Coo- K+

      20

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    Yonniestone

    Newsbreak, NASA launches CO2 tracking satellite http://www.skynews.com.au/news/tech/2014/07/02/nasa-launches-co2-tracking-satellite.html?cid=BP_RSS_TECHNOLOGY_1_NASAlaunchesCO2trackingsatellite_020714

    Best line is “The OCO-2 will take 24 measurements of carbon in the atmosphere every second, about a million per day, but clouds are a major obstacle.”

    Is this a case of not seeing the CO2 for the clouds? :)

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  • #
    Rod Stuart

    There is definitely something fishy at James Cook U. Is it the heat? Or maybe something in the water?

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    Roy Hogue

    Comedy Central can’t compete with this thread.

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    pat

    ***another study which proves the point of the Upton Sinclair quote by BBC’s Ed Butler on “Business Daily” – a quote which better refers to the Beeb & most of the guests on the program:

    (paraphrasing)

    AUDIO 18 MINS: 2 July: BBC Business Daily: Ed Butler: Future of Coal
    There are dire warnings about the heating of the planet. Coal is a significant contributor to global warming. So what is the future of this increasingly controversial fuel?
    BUTLER: IEA tells us it is time for a carbon tax.
    ***BUTLER quotes American writer, Upton Sinclair: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!”)
    (BUSINESS ADVISOR- potential for 300 foot ocean rise, extenction of everything on the planet, this is based in history; so catastrophic, people say “i might as well live it up”)
    BUTLER: what is the sensible, sane reaction to that?
    (BUSINESS ADVISOR): first reaction is let’s have a drink til it’s over, but the sane reaction is to aggressively get off coal, natural gas, oil…go to nuclear, solar, wind & hydro, but we have to stop using fossil fuels. must avoid Easter Island’s fate.
    BUTLER: 3 heavyweights from both sides of US political divide – Paulson, Bloomberg & Steyer, issued a major report last week…
    11.35 Lord Nicholas Stern:
    BUTLER: Stern says biggest cause for optimism over coal comes from China, which alone was responsible for burning 50 percent of coal through its power stations. he (Stern) told me things were changing there…should reach peak coal use in 10 years.
    STERN climate fatigue is more in Europe than in US, must accelerate investment in renewables…
    risks are bigger than we recognised in 2006 & some effects of CAGW are happening faster e.g. THE MELTING OF THE POLAR ICE…
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/bizdaily

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    • #
      OriginalSteve

      I’d love to see a Dilbert comic take on all this….

      Catbert – Evil Emissions Trading Consultant….

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  • #
    realist

    If this alleged “research” is an indication of the gross waste of taxpayer’s money allocated to the ARC and other “hand-out” organisations, it begs the question what criteria does an application for a bucket of money have to meet in order to join the “move along, another snout is in the trough” club?

    Perhaps what’s required is a close look at how research grants are allocated and a cost-benefit analysis applied with goverment publishd results evident for taxpayers to see the the value of their taxes at work. Transparency might result in “no fish were harmed by an irrelevant hypothesis in this research” being tagged to all “fishy” projects, instead of the fish.

    Unfortunately the issue is not unique to any hypothesis waving under a climate flag; it’s across the spectrum of research and particularly evident in the so-called social “sciences”. It’s not the fish in need of a good school, it’s the faux researchers that pass through the gate with a degree that might be written on the back of a weeties packet that we need to be concerned about.

    Does this example of “research” fit in the category of Green Waste? Did the conclusion suggest the slow fish need a holiday with some cousins frolicking in natural CO2 enriched water in PNG? Of course, the researcher would have to take them to and fro (how to retrieve the little buggers might be a problem) and that would require some time up there! Oh what a feeling, counting the grant money fish”

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  • #
    STJOHNOFGRAFTON

    The delicate pH balance of the oceans is protected by buffering via the laws of Chemical Equilibrium.

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  • #
    old44

    The only thing they left out was “NEMO IS LONELY”

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    pat

    ***least strings attached?

    2 July: Reuters: Alister Doyle: UN green fund to seek cash in November; poor want $15 billion
    Green fund seen intended to unlock global climate deal.
    “Now it’s time to mobilise money,” Hela Cheikhrouhou, executive director of the Green Climate Fund, told Reuters after two days of talks in Oslo among more than 20 nations about the legal details of cash pledges.
    ***”What matters is that we raise as much as possible as early as possible with the least strings attached as possible.”…
    Rich nations gave developing nations $10 billion in climate aid a year from 2010 to 2012 and aim to raise it to $100 billion from 2020. Sapped by years of austerity, they have not mapped out how they will raise the amounts in the years up to 2020.
    ***Cheikhrouhou said the fund so far has $55 million, largely for its own administration and to help countries plan, including $10 million from Seoul and $23 million from Germany. She said the fund was primarily seeking cash grants rather than loans…
    “Financing is a prerequisite for having the developing world as part of a global compact” he (Norwegian Foreign Minister Boerge Brende) said…
    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/02/climatechange-cash-idUKL6N0PD2LH20140702

    Point Carbon has the following story, but no MSM picking it up, so can’t excerpt, but found the details here:

    2 July: Montel Norway: Nora Kamprath Buli: Frankfurt prosecutor raises new emissions VAT-fraud charge
    Frankfurt prosecutors on Wednesday said they have raised criminal charges against a British citizen accused of evading EUR 30m in tax payments from emissions trading deals.
    The accused was arrested in the UK on 21 January and has been in police custody in Germany since 16 April, the German prosecutor’s office said.
    Between September 2009 and April 2010 the man was managing director of a Frankfurt-based company and involved at the so-called “buffer level” in a carousel VAT-fraud scheme in connection with the trading of European CO2 allowances.
    The man is part of the same carousel scheme that led to the arrest of one of the scheme’s main organisers in Las Vegas, Nevada, in May, Frankfurt prosecutor spokesman Alexander Badle told Montel…
    Around 150 suspects are being investigated as part of the case that started in 2010, Badle said, calling it “the most extensive tax evasion case our unit has been handling over the past few years”.
    As part of the investigations, six people were sentenced in December 2011 and two in April this year.
    The investigation focuses on the top members of the fraud scheme, many of whom are often hiding outside of Germany, Badle said…
    http://www.montel.no/StartPage/SubPage.aspx?id=527751

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  • #
    Glen Michel

    I have a school of academics here.can I experiment on them.They have acute herding/schooling tendencies.

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    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Careful….use tongs when handling….and if they get that wild-eyed look, back away , slowly….not making eye contact….

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    Mattb

    It actually seems fairly plausible that species are hardwired to seek genetic variation when there is a change in environmental conditions. Evidence is that when things change species don’t just huddle around and die but rather evolve and adapt.

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  • #
    Safetyguy66

    So right now the ultimate avenue of research should be the effects of adding CO2 to CO2, I mean surely someone should be studying this to ensure it doesn’t pose a threat to humanity itself!!

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    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Certainly doesnt pose a risk to common sense….thats for sure….

      Funny…all I can think of is that annoying rather dim fish , Dori, in “Finding Nemo”….

      “wheeeeeeee……keep swimming…keep swimming…”

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    Rod Stuart

    The Browning Letter has a good reputation in North America for weather forecast accuracy. It is published by Evelyn Browning Garriss. In this issue she discusses the pros and cons of an El Nino year, and makes some SWAGS about the likely outcome of this year’s El Nino event. It might be interesting to keep this forecast on file and compare it with observations a year on.

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    • #
      Streetcred

      In particular, at least one pollutant, nitrogen dioxide, has decreased substantially over the past decade.

      Since when is nitrogen dioxide a pollutant? Is the rest of it credible?

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    crosspatch

    My daughter has complained for years of the toilet seat being left up in the loo. Her brother swears it isn’t him. We had for years written it off to Bush Administration policies somehow causing the seat to pop up but he’s gone so it is now obvious it was due to Global Warming the whole time.

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    • #
      Streetcred

      Blokes should start to complain about the toilet seat being left down … with the usual natural consequences.

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      • #
        Mattb

        I always think women should be happy the seat is up, because then at least it’s not splattered.

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        • #
          the Griss

          Hey, you have to put the seat up to let it drain.

          00

          • #
            Rogueelement451

            Some men appear to have little control of their dangly bits and should just sit on the lav ,Chrissake its not exactly a clarinet,but you would think so after some performances.

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  • #
    Andrew McRae

    Some more mild light relief….
    Greenpeace protests Arctic oil drilling by … putting Lego protesters on the Lego oil rig model at Legoland.

    Points for creativity, but politicising a children’s display is pretty low. Surprising they didn’t No-Pressure the hell out of the poor tykes 10:10-style while they were at it.

    Funny that Lego can sell pirate ships and pirate hideouts for 20 years and nobody complains Lego is encouraging children to become bloodthirsty thieves, but you put a Shell logo in one kit and suddenly you’re evil incarnate.

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    incoherent rambler

    Global Warming works in mysterious ways.
    It is not for us to question.

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  • #
    pat

    3 July: ABC: Future of Carbon Farming Initiative unclear
    ABC Rural Lucy Barbour
    Chief executive of the Carbon Market Institute, Peter Castellas, says if the carbon tax is abolished and Direction Action isn’t legislated, carbon farming investors will lose out…
    “The Carbon Farming Initiative can continue if there is no carbon pricing mechanism, or if there’s no Emissions Reduction Fund, but I’d stress that it is actually not going to provide the project developers with any return on investment.”

    The Coalition’s Carbon Farming Initiative Amendment Bill has passed the Lower House and is the subject of a current Senate inquiry. One proposal is to introduce a seven year crediting period for emissions reduction projects.
    The Aboriginal Carbon Fund, which works to foster projects like savanna burning in northern Australia, is concerned by that proposal.
    General manager of the Fund, Rowan Foley, says there’s currently no limit on how long participants can earn credits for.
    “We have to manage land and employ people, and we have to ensure the environmental benefits of looking after country, particularly in savanna burning areas where you have to do an annual fire management program,” Mr Foley said.
    “We have to do that every year and, if we are taking away the crediting periods, we cannot even sell our carbon credits on the voluntary market because we are just outside the space of time to be able to get that crediting period up.”
    The Carbon Farming Initiative Amendment Bill is linked to Direct Action, and projects would be registered under the Emissions Reduction Fund…
    “I do not think that we can do savanna burning for less than $15 a tonne.
    “That is around about the cut-off margin. I think that we are going to be undercut (by bigger companies).”…
    Mrs Kiely says there are some positive changes in the Bill, including the provision for farmers to maintain carbon sequestration projects for 25 years, instead of the current 100 years.
    She’s confident there’s a future for the Carbon Farming Initiative, even if the carbon price is repealed and Direct Action isn’t legislated.
    “What doesn’t stop is the framework,” Mrs Kiely said…
    “We have started markets before so we would be forced into a sort of niche market type of situation that would have more difficulties.
    ***Nobody wants that to happen.”
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-03/carbon-farming-initiative/5568502

    ***Mrs Kiely – “nobody”? i can’t think of anyone i know who wants this nonsense to continue.

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    pat

    abc never stops shilling for pricing carbon dioxide emissions:

    2 July: ABC: Need for carbon capture pressing as global coal use surges
    ABC Rural By Babs McHugh
    The International Energy Agency (IEA) says the cost of carbon capture and storage (CCS) for coal fired power stations is dropping at a time when coal use is ramping up…
    Developing economies have driven the global consumption of coal to its highest level since the 1970s as they need more and more affordable energy.
    Findings of the 65th Annual Review of World Energy Use by BP show that coal’s share of primary energy consumption reached 30.1 per cent.
    Consumption of coal outside of OECD countries rose by a below-average 3.7 per cent but still accounted for 89 per cent of global growth…
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-02/ccs-urgently-needed-as-coal-usage-rises/5505866

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    pat

    2 July: Forbes: Jeff McMahon: We Can’t Stop Carbon Emissions Without These Four Things
    Two expert economists and an expert engineer endorsed the EPA’s Clean Power Plan at a conference in Washington D.C. Friday, but cautioned that the proposed rule is only a first step, and it affects only one of several sectors of the economy that produce greenhouse gases…
    Branstetter (Lee Branstetter, a professor of economics and public policy at Carnegie Mellon University and a former senior economist for international trade and investment at the Council of Economic Advisers)
    offered a kind of closing argument to the two-day conference on “China, the West, and the Alternative Energy Innovation Challenge” at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, urging these four necessities to decarbonize the world economy:
    1. More federal funding for alternative-energy technologies…blah blah
    2. A Price On Carbon…blah blah
    3. Global Free Trade…blah blah
    4. China: Whether we like it or not we’re going to have to find a way to work together.”
    For an example, a presenter told the conference earlier that China can build Westinghouse nuclear reactors designed in Pittsburgh at one-half to one-third the cost of construction in the United States.
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2014/07/02/we-cant-stop-carbon-emissions-without-these-4-things/

    on Forbes profile, writer Jeff McMahon states: “I cover green technology, energy and the environment from Chicago.” no mention of the following connections to the nuclear industry:

    LinkedIn: Jeff McMahon
    Chief Financial Officer / Vice President of Finance at Cornfields, Inc, Illinois
    Past: Principal Financial Analyst
    ComEd2004 – 2006 (2 years)
    ComEd, a subsidiary of Exelon, is a $5 billion energy delivery company in Northern Illinois…
    Senior Business Analyst
    Exelon
    2002 – 2004 (2 years)
    http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jeff-mcmahon/4b/400/439

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  • #
    OriginalSteve

    Message just in from Warmist HQ:

    So long and thanks for all the fish!

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  • #
    Richard C (NZ)

    “Centre of Excellence”

    Gets me every time.

    10

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    pat

    how come this woman has so much to say to Reuters about G20/CAGW?

    3 July: Reuters: Randall Palmer: CORRECTED-Australia sees limited G20 appetite on new climate change steps
    Australia, this year’s G20 chair, sees little consensus among the Group of 20 leading economies to take major new steps on climate change, senior official Heather Smith said on Wednesday.
    Smith, the personal representative or G20 sherpa of Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott, is helping shape the agenda for November’s G20 summit in Brisbane, and spoke of the importance of finding agreement across the group.
    There is strong political consensus within the G20 on the importance of political action on climate change, she said, adding that the summit would give momentum to climate change negotiations as it has in the past.
    G20 countries are encouraged to invest in green infrastructure, and there was work on reducing fossil fuel subsidies and on climate change financing, she said after giving a speech on Australia’s G20 presidency…
    But she added: “You have to find consensus where there is consensus, and there is no consensus in the G20 to do anything beyond those areas I’ve mentioned.
    “And it’s not an Australian position. It reflects the membership,” she said, alluding to members that she said were not as vocal as others…
    http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/07/03/australia-g20-climatechange-idINL2N0PE00520140703

    G20 Sherpa Heather Smith
    Dr Heather Smith was appointed Deputy Secretary, G20 Sherpa in the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet in September 2013…
    Before joining the public service, Dr Smith was an academic working on North Asia at the Australian National University, holding various positions from 1994-2000. She also worked at the Reserve Bank of Australia from 1988-1990.
    Dr Smith holds a Bachelor of Economics (First Class Honours) from the University of Queensland and a Masters and PhD in Economics from the Australian National University.
    https://www.g20.org/about_g20/sherpa_dr_heather_smith

    in an interview with Canada’s Globe and Mail, Australia’s “G20 Sherpa, Heather Smith” had precisely this to say about G20/CAGW:

    2 July: Globe & Mail, Canada: Bill Curry: Australia prepares to host G20 summit
    Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott has faced criticism for not placing climate change high on the agenda. Dr. Smith said Australia is of the view that climate-change discussions are best focused at the United Nations…
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/australia-prepares-to-host-g20-summit/article19437717/

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  • #
    pat

    speaking of fish:

    big in the MSM today, with most headlines a variation of “Caribbean coral reefs could be gone in 20 years” which the public will probably presume to be because of CAGW.

    UK Times’ Ben Webster gets it right:

    3 July: Australian: Climate change wrongly blamed as lead cause of loss of Caribbean coral reefs, scientist says
    by Ben Webster (UK Times)
    A MISPLACED focus on the impact of climate change has delayed vital work to save vanishing coral reefs in the Caribbean, a leading scientist has claimed.
    The area covered by live coral has more than halved since the 1970s, primarily because of overfishing and coastal pollution, according to Carl Gustaf Lundin, director of the global marine programme at the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN)…
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/climate-change-wrongly-blamed-as-lead-cause-of-loss-of-caribbean-coral-reefs-scientist-says/story-fnb64oi6-1226976146949?nk=471a10dc950a7ddb70fcedf12c494383#mm-premium

    NZ Herald/AP get it right:

    3 July: NZ Herald: AP: Colourful parrotfish key to saving Caribbean’s coral reefs?
    Colourful parrotfish and spindly sea urchins are the key to saving the Caribbean’s coral reefs, which may disappear in two decades if no action is taken, a report by several international organisations said.
    The report, which analysed the work of 90 experts over three years, said Caribbean reefs have declined by more than 50 percent since the 1970s. It said that while many experts have blamed climate change for the problem, a drop in the populations of parrotfish and sea urchins is largely responsible…
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11287048

    ***Guardian – like almost all the rest of the MSM – manages to keep the CAGW meme going:

    2 July: Guardian: Jessica Aldred: Caribbean coral reefs ‘will be lost within 20 years’ without protection
    Major report warns that loss of grazing fish due to pollution and overfishing is a key driver of region’s coral decline

    ***While climate change and the resulting ocean acidification and coral bleaching does pose a major threat to the region, the report – Status and Trends of Caribbean Coral Reefs: 1970-2012 – found that local pressures such as tourism, overfishing and pollution posed the biggest problems…

    “Even if we could somehow make climate change disappear tomorrow, these reefs would continue their decline,” said Jeremy Jackson, lead author of the report and IUCN’s senior adviser on coral reefs. “We must immediately address the grazing problem for the reefs to stand any chance of surviving future climate shifts.”
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jul/02/caribbean-coral-reef-lost-fishing-pollution-report

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  • #
    Geoffrey Williams

    Don’t you just love it!
    It’s one thing to put some extra CO2 into a fish tank and observe the results.It is quite another matter to put some extra CO2 into the atmosphere and prove global warming!
    Geoff W Sydney

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    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Nearly everything lives in fear of being eaten. What’s new? I live in increasing fear that my lunch will be eaten by the government, breakfast and diner too. So nuts to the snails. If they can’t manage on their own I can’t help them.

      10

      • #
        Yonniestone

        Snails living in fear OH NO!, just another excuse to SLUG us with another bogus tax I guess.

        The comments at the end of that post are the most worrying thing in that drivel.

        20

      • #
        Rogueelement451

        Snails are much appreciated by the French ,boiled with a garlic butter sauce apparently ,this could solve Roy’s fear ,as you can just collect them,but would do nothing to make the snails feel more secure.

        10

        • #
          ROM

          Boat loads!
          Nope ! That one’s too fishy with frightening fishy connatations!

          Aha! Schools of refugee asylum seeking fish expected any day now at James Cook as the word gets around and past those White Pointer bouncers that their local rather fishy environment is going to hell in a fish basket.

          High-Frequency Dynamics of Ocean pH: A Multi-Ecosystem Comparison

          ” Here, we present a compilation of continuous, high-resolution time series of upper ocean pH, collected using autonomous sensors, over a variety of ecosystems ranging from polar to tropical, open-ocean to coastal, kelp forest to coral reef. These observations reveal a continuum of month-long pH variability with standard deviations from 0.004 to 0.277 and ranges spanning 0.024 to 1.430 pH units. The nature of the observed variability was also highly site-dependent, with characteristic diel, semi-diurnal, and stochastic patterns of varying amplitudes. These biome-specific pH signatures disclose current levels of exposure to both high and low dissolved CO2, often demonstrating that resident organisms are already experiencing pH regimes that are not predicted until 2100″

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  • #
    crosspatch

    This may be hard advice for some people to be able to take because of how the “instant” nature of the Internet has warped our patience but here goes:

    Just wait and see. All the arguing in the world right now isn’t going to change the outcome. Whether or not someone “believes” it, one of two things WILL happen. Either we will see a response as indicated here or we wont. It might take 24 to 36 more months for it to fully develop but it either will or it won’t.

    00