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10 Wong reasons to tax us

Penny-Wong-Lite-Science

Why tobacco is central to explaining Climate Science…

The Sydney Morning Herald published a speech by Penny Wong (our Minister of Climate Change, Storms, Droughts, and Rainy Days). Sometimes I marvel that humanity ever managed to get civilized.

“Climate Sceptics are all red herrings and quackery”

Get ready for the startling Proof by Motherhood Statements & WhiteWash. I’m loosely Paraphrasing Penny, taking the liberty of including the fuller more accurate message (that I’m sure she would want to share)… [then adding a few thoughts].

A strong global agreement is apparently “manifestly in Australia’s own national interest” (and worth paying billions upon billions for). Why?

10 Wong Reasons

 Copenhagen wasn’t the complete failure that people say. (Who mentioned a red herring?) [Countries for the first time have signed a pledge that they will control the weather and keep temperatures from rising no more than 2 degrees. It has no legal meaning in any court, but leaders who break this will be embarrassed in public.]

 Evidence, that I can’t name specifically, points to climate change happening more quickly than we thought. (Though CO2 levels are rising “dead linear”, sea levels have flattened off, and temperatures have so “stopped rising” that people are calculating the statistical chances that we could call this form of rising: “falling”. Ocean heat content change has gone negative. Nothing bar anything that’s important is getting worse faster than the IPCC predicted, except CO2 emissions (which kinda flies in the face of the idea that those emissions matter eh?) Strike that… the number of skeptics is accelerating, and the number of holes in the IPCC documents has gone exponential. Damn.) **

 Australia needs an emission trading scheme on carbon because some people once did misleading campaigns on the safety of tobacco. That was a totally different debate about different topics, different risks, and a different level of evidence and among a different industry. There was no UN Agency involved, and the tradeable market was tiny in comparison. Also Medical research is audited by the FDA, and the IPCC is audited by… unpaid bloggers. But other than that, there are similarities.

 We’ve had lots of “hottest ever records” broken lately: If you ignore all the inexplicable adjustments (like these in Darwin) and forget that temperatures have been rising for 150 years before carbon started to be pumped en-masse, that’s quite scary. (And don’t ask me what caused the Little Ice Age, or when that mystery factor stopped.)

 People claim we’ve been “hoodwinked by scientists”. (Don’t they know that scientists never lie?) Obviously this is a silly claim, because “those hoodwinked would have to include … Margaret Thatcher”. [Wong actually says exactly that. As if Margaret Thatcher would know in the 80's that Phil Jones and a cabal of friends would say "Hide the Decline" a decade or two later... Really? Does she think naming a conservative politician who agreed with her a quarter of a century ago is like a free ticket to the land of "convincing'? Has anyone asked Mrs T what she thinks lately? ]

 The IPCC AR4 is 3000 pages long. (Not that I would ever give you a red herring). Argumentum by documentum ad infinitum. [ So 2 + 2 = 4 is wrong because it fits on one page? If you pay me $10 million I can make that a 3000 page proof.  :-) ]

 Models that assume disasters are “caused by carbon” have projected disasters that are (shock me) “caused by carbon”. The Minister has been known to wave this around as “evidence”.

 Carbon markets “work” in Europe. $133 billion dollars turned over in 2009, lining profit sheets of bankers, auditors, accountants and government officials. These markets work well to suck spending power from citizens and buy yachts for financial CEO’s. They also help to screw poor peasants in China and India. “Multipurpose” is the word.

 Politicians in Canberra have all taken out insurance on their homes for fire or theft. [And I'm planning to sell them a policy for Asteroid Damage. Who could refuse? I mean, you never know if you'll come home one day to find a remnant from the formation of the solar system in the spot where your living room used to be.]

 One of the disastrous humiliating claims about IPCC errors was shown to be not quite as grovellingly awful as it first appeared. And the IPCC fixed one of their other mistakes.  Rajandra Pachauri knew about the error before Copenhagen, and it only took front page headlines calling for his resignation to force him to stop attacking the whistleblowers as “voo-doo” practictioners and start getting the science right. Who could ask for more?

Bonus point: Anything you say in disagreement with the above shows you are funded by big oil and trained by Phillip Morris. Therefore the World is Warming. D-QED*.

What’s scary about this is that people who are supposed to represent the public (our elected representatives) are using the equivalent of a medieval witchhunt to run the country, and the people who are supposed to inform the public (the journalists) don’t seem to notice.


*D-QED: Don’t Question the Evidence, Denier.
** Since you asked: We skeptics can offer specific evidence that the carbon-dioxide theory is falsified: the missing hotspot, most carbon dioxide emissions have happened since WWII but it has been warming at a roughly steady rate since 1750, analysis of outgoing radiation observations by Lindzen and Choi, cloud feedback observations by Spencer, etc. See my links page for more information.]

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179 comments to 10 Wong reasons to tax us

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    val majkus

    Thanks Jo for publicising this; I wrote to all Senators criticising the speech plus copies for Tony Abbott and Greg Hunt; I wrote to Wong about 3 weeks ago asking for copies of the ETS modelling she assured Tony Jones had been released some time ago but no answer; does anyone know where I can get a copy of that
    My e mail to the SEnators addressed the following points from the speech:
    peer review in the IPCC takes centre stage even to WWF pamphlets
    global warming temperature data is backed by ocean warming data
    Ocean levels are rising
    costs associated with catastrophies

    If it would help anyone to have a copy of that e mail just ask

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    janama

    and the people who are supposed to inform the public (the journalists) don’t seem to notice.

    That’s the most damning part of all this – the whole cast of the ABC’s Drum, Crikey, The Age The SMH etc etc. – they are all asleep on this subject.

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    val majkus

    well … the ABC is in my view notoriously left wing; the Sun Herald the Courier Mail the Canberra Times and more recently the Australian are starting to stir – the bloggers of course have always been ahead of the MSM

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    Bruce

    I actually feel sorry for K D Wong. By all accounts she seems to be a genuine person…caught in the wrong paradigm.

    Krudd seems to be treating her like some sort of expendable resource to further his own political agenda…perhaps she realises this already.

    What will Krudd do with all the people who are now employed in the DCC (Dept of Climate Change)

    http://www.climatechange.gov.au/en/about/employment.aspx

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    Baa Humbug

    When I first read her speech I thought it’s hardly worth commenting on. Rehash rehash rehash nothing new to say.
    How does one keep a straight face when telling obvious outright porkies?

    You did a good job though Jo, the humour really twists the knife.

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    I never noticed it before, but, with a bleach job and a pair of glasses, Plenny Wrong would look a lot like you know who.
    Has anyone ever seen them in the same room at the same time?

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    val majkus

    Bruce, I am a bit concerned that the Govt are doing a deal with the Greens; with them on board then they will need only 2 more Senators (I think) to get the ETS passed and I think Senator Xenathon and Tony Windsor are sympathetic; so don’t feel sorry for Penny Wong; we have some hard work to do to convince all ind senators not to vote for it)

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    Louis Hissink

    #7

    Val,

    Independent senators are Fielding and Xenophon. Fielding is anti AGW. Xenophon I am not sure. Two possibles are Libs, so any action should be targeted to those senators, 3 in all.

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    george

    Val, Bruce etc

    Assuming Labor negotiates a satisfactory (for themselves) deal with the greens and assuming Rudd can rely on 2 more wild cards then, yes, we got problems.
    If, however, this does not come to pass then he would be a lunatic to take any drastic action (a la a double-dissolution election) until after the 20th March South Australian and Tasmanian state election results are in. Possible breathing space there.

    Don`t forget that the recent Altona by-election recorded a swing of 12% away from Labor, and the greens (more to the point!) only picked up 1-2%.

    FWIW

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    Mark

    Val, Tony Windsor is in the “house”. The Govt. has the numbers there anyway, so he’s irrelevant. Listening to Xenophon on radio is a different matter. Sounds like he is a fence-sitter.

    I believe like others that Abbott’s apparent about-face on this is due to having to placate Senators Troeth and Boyce as well as keeping the other independents on side. His scheme at least has the benefit of disposability when and if necessary and probably just as effective in “reducing carbon pollution”.

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    val majkus

    Thanks for the info on Tony Windsor; it’s then Troeth and Boyce I’m worried about; didn’t they both cross the floor last time; maybe Abbott could keep them in line this time notwithstanding tradition

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    Speedy

    Just love that graphic Jo!

    Cheers,

    Speedy.

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    matty

    Notice Kevin seems is leaving all the climate spruiking to Penny so he can wash his hands and fight an election on other grounds. He doesn’t want to know anymore and I doubt he is about to do anything to increase it’s chances of getting up. He has completely pissed on the greens here – I wonder how vengeful they are?

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    Otter

    They never do seem to be able to explain just HOW those scientists involved in the cigarette cover-up somehow became climate-change deniers. Especially since the ONLY scientists doing any covering up in ‘man-made’ climate change, are those in the employ of the governments / UN / whomever will give them the most grant money.

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    Treeman

    Well done once again Jo. John O Sullivan has savaged her from the UK. Bruce, don’t feel sorry for KD, choices beget consequences and she’s a big girl now. DCC won’t be the only Dept on the rocks. Environment is already sounding more mental than anything insulative. Don’t you just love fiscal conservatism with a dash of misanthropy and science settler. Shaken and slipped but not quite down are the gray-suited peddlers of snake oil patter.

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    RobinAtl

    Great post again Jo. I cant imagine that the late night comics can come up with anything better than yours. Have you thought about getting another TV show: :-)

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    Charles Bourbaki

    “Countries for the first time have signed a pledge that they will control the weather and keep temperatures from rising no more than 2 degrees”

    I think Penny and our political leaders are being a little conservative here. Climate science modelling can predict the relationship between CO2 concentrations and the global temperature anomoly to the nearest 1/100 of a degree. It’s that precise. I think 1.96 deg would be closer to the mark. 2 deg just sounds like an arse pluck.

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    AManuel

    I’m sorry to see that you have Political Leaders who are as out of touch as we have here in the US. Also, Dr. Roger Pielke Jr. has a post on Ms. Wong’s disaster damage claims on his blog that you may find interesting.

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    Speedy

    Penny – if you’re reading this:

    There are two major differences between the tobacco lobby and the climate “skeptics”, as you so lovingly call us.

    1. Climate skeptics are not paid for their opinion, unlike yourself and the other Copenhagen/IPCC junketeers, and
    2. We happen to be on the side of science. Unlike the self-proclaimed climate “scientists”, who are even yet hiding the data that supposedly support their claims. If you wish to discredit this claim, please ask James Hansen et al to send his files to Steve McIntyre…

    Penny, I don’t smoke. Penny, I don’t encourage my children to smoke. Penny, I don’t encourage them to tell lies, and I extend the same advice to you.

    Please remember that a healthy (hem hem), part of your income is directly derived from taxes obtained from tobacco sales. Would you like to take the moral stand and turn this over to a useful purpose – cancer research perhaps?

    I would really like an apology, Penny. I really would. Preferably, on the same page as your resignation.

    Thanks in advance,

    Speedy.

    PS. I gave you a mention in Jo’s last post, comment # 100 or so. Enjoy!

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    Henry chance

    Penny Wrong of the Sloganeering class.
    The day Resident Obama decides to stand against pollution is the day he stops smoking cigarettes.

    Tax will not change temperatures. Health insurance doesn’t cure fever. It is dishonest for them to claim that if we are not activists against carbon or CO2, we favor pollution.

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    Speedy

    Charles (18)

    You’re right – it probably is an arse pluck – pardon the language. And please remember that there is a world of difference between precision and accuracy. Quoting something to 2 decimal places doesn’t make it right if the whole thing is, as you say, an “arsepluck”. Who’s to say it’s not 1.96 degrees plus or minus 5 degrees? What’s the relevance of the second decimal point in this situation, pray tell?

    Sorry to be pedantic, but we differentiate between the capability of predicting a figure and predicting it ACCURATELY!!! This is the sort of argument that snake oil salesmen and IPCC representatives use to convince a gullible public. It is not befitting a fine chap like yourself…

    Cheers,

    Speedy.

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    Baa Humbug

    Like I said, the first time I read Penny (Calamity Jane) Wongs rehash of alarm I brushed it off. But the more I thought about it the more angry I got.
    Beaches are gunna disappear, more droughts, more floods, alarm alarm panick panick is all Calamity Wong knows.
    Had some bad thoughts running thru my head. Then a bit of humour came to mind that calmed me down.

    This is what I’d like to do to Penny and I’M SURE THE REST OF YOU WOULD LIKE TO JOIN ME.

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    Baa Humbug

    But of course Calamity Jane delivers her messages of doom sooooooo calmly doesn’t she. Those who have seen her on camera will know what I mean. Climate change will kill us all and we’re all out of coffee

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    Speedy

    Baa Humbug

    From Flying High #1 ? A classic!

    Speedy

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    Baa Humbug

    What was Calamity thinking when she delivered that speech? Surely she wasn’t serious. Surely somebody in the audience raised a hand and said “Minister, surely you can’t be serious”.

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    harrywr2

    “Margaret Thatcher”

    By the late 1970′s is was clear that the British Coal industry was in decline. The coal seams were getting thinner and thinner and the cost of mining coal more and more expensive. The cost of importing coal to the UK from Australia or Gillette, Wyoming is prohibitive, and importing from the Soviet Union was unthinkable.

    Margaret Thatcher needed a justification she could sell to environmentalists to justify moving to nuclear power as the environmentalists were against nuclear power.

    Of course she failed, and Britain ended up investing huge sums of money in windmills which only work when the wind is blowing which may or may not be the same time as when people need electricity.

    The energy discussion in the Big 8 of coal is going to be different.

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    ANGRY

    This [Snip - No need for profanities please - Yoda Editor]
    It doesn’t seem human!
    More like a ROBOT!
    Garbage in….garbage out.
    The wongbot needs reprogramming.

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    Wong is fully duped!

    “The bottom line is that there is no scientific evidence linking rising global temperatures to the increasing catastrophe losses around the world. Ironically enough including the paper cited by Wong to suggest the opposite.
    Despite this fact, and the obvious IPCC misrepresentations on this subject, Australia’s Penny Wong concludes:

    “There may well be dispute about the cost of catastrophes, but the science on the link between these catastrophes and climate change has not been credibly challenged.”

    Score that as one fully duped policy maker by the IPCC’s spin and misdirection.”

    http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2010/02/policy-impact-of-ipcc-misdirection.html

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    Lee

    Great article Jo

    It prompted me to once again email Penny Wong and tell her that the public are waking up, and it’s about time she did. However, I fear it will fall on deaf ears, as I haven’t received a reply from any government senator after sending countless emails in the past few months… even the PM himself was too busy to acknowledge me lol. At least most of the opposition responded.

    It is actually quite alarming when you see this kind of bare faced lying by the people that are supposed to have our nations best interests at heart. Can they really believe what they are saying in light of mounting scientific evidence against AGW? As our representatives, they should be looking at all the science, and not being so dismissive of anything that doesn’t suit their agenda. The best option at the moment is to wait and see, but instead they seem to have a predetermined goal that they continue to push towards regardless. This government is beyond just crazy, it is dangerous!

    Lee

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    Rereke Whaakaro

    I don’t actually think that politicians have that much control over anything.

    They are pushed from two sides – on the one hand, the only reliable (sic) information they have to work with is from the policy unit in their department, and on the other hand, they have to work within the policy framework (read the PR spin) agreed at the party level.

    Having been an observer in this environment, they just seem to lurch from crisis to crisis, always watching their backs to avoid “friendly fire” from their colleagues. In this situation, the safest thing they can do is to “stay on message”, even if the message is wrong.

    It will be a cold day in hell when any politician willingly admits they made a mistake, especially in an election year.

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    Clive popham

    On the subject of Penny Wong.
    The weekly times, an Australian Rural Affairs weekly newspaper reported that Penny Wong had refused the cull of feral camels (a destructive pest in outback Australia).
    The report says:
    ‘When is a greenhouse gas not a greenhouse gas?
    When it is emitted by a feral camel.
    A loophole in global carbon accounting standards means feral camels don’t emit methane, yet domestic camels do.
    The bizarre loophole in the Kyoto Protocol has been used by Climate Change Minister Penny Wong to justify the Federal Government’s refusal to carry out a cull of Australia’s feral camels, which are also damaging the desert environment.’
    Whole this may just seem like an amusing piece of stupidity it goes much deeper than the Weekly realises.
    This goes to the heart of the IPPC which states in it’s charter that:
    ”The role of the IPCC is to assess on a comprehensive, objective, open and transparent basis the scientific,technical and socio-economic information relevant to understanding the scientific basis of risk of human-induced climate change, its potential impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation.’

    As long as words Human-induced climate change remain the IPPC farce will continue, removal of these words would be fought tooth and nail as these are at the heart of the warmist religion.
    Is it just possible PW is trying to send a message about the IPPC.

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  • #

    Senator Wong Fully Duped by the IPCC, but the ABC duping the rest of us. Do they have journalists at the ABC anymore?

    http://abcnewswatch.blogspot.com/2010/02/missing-news-wong-fully-duped-according.html

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    MadJak

    Ms Wong is a CLIMATEGATE DENIER

    Please, can some other party come along and save us from these Ideological Wonks we have in Power?

    This Government and it’s ABC puppet has had the mindset of Officer Brody from southpark with this whole issue:

    “Nothing to see here people, move along, move along”

    But you see people have had access to the truth online, so I guess Mr Conroy will have to cripple our rights accordingly eh Wong?

    Please rescue this country from this lunacy.

    My Taxes should not be paying for this dribble coming from a minister.

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    [...] Reality check Penny, Wrong Wong lies, 10 Wong reasons to tax us! [...]

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    Philipos

    Everyone should read this – http://citizensclimatelobby.org/files/Conning-the-Climate.pdf – and then lobby hard against carbon trading

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    old44

    “It has no legal meaning in any court, but leaders who break this will be embarrassed in public.”
    HELLO! They are politicians, they have no conscience, they CANNOT be embarrassed.

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    Treeman

    Red Herrings and Quackery equally apply to but are not limited to PWong. No wonder fellow alarmist PGarrett is burning his bridges now. JohnOsullivan advises common law options to deal with criminal fraud. Osullivan examines “two of the recently filed climate skeptic petitions filed by U.S. corporations. In both there is the common argument that ‘arbitrary and capricious’ governmental climate-related decisions have been imposed upon the people” The big issue for Garrett and his boss is that the victims’ three families could sue. Greening Australian labor is looking more and more like a move that will cost them not only the next federal election but the eastern seaboard States in quick time. Their credibility in tatters and hardhats blowin in the wind, KRudd and dear old Blightie are up a flooded creek without a paddle!

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    pat

    Examiner: New special from founder of the Weather Channel tackles manmade climate change theory
    Now a meteorologist for KUSI in San Diego, Coleman has continued his assault with a series of television specials, the latest of which aired last night.
    The latest hour long special titled “Global Warming: Meltdown” walks through the arguments on both sides of the issue. From recent revelations of errors within the U.N.’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s (IPCC) reports to discussions of faulty climate computer models, Coleman lays out the doubts about man’s influence on the climate reassuring viewers that, “Mankind is not destroying our planet.”…
    http://www.examiner.com/x-25061-Climate-Change-Examiner~y2010m2d19-New-special-from-founder-of-the-Weather-Channel-tackles-manmade-climate-change-theory

    19 Feb: UK Register: Eco computer game cost taxpayers £47 per play
    The true cost of astroturf
    Some of the recipients border on self-parody:
    “Reasons to be Cheerful, the Carbon Coach, Cheerful Ltd. CarbonSense, Comic Company and National Energy Foundation have come together as Think Purple to help make CO2 visible. The project has produced purple resources for schools, organisations, and the general public which they hope will help transform how they see CO2 and how they use energy,” we learn.
    But few of the messages were cheery. In an incredible film called Carbon Weevil, humanity “infects” Mother Earth (a she, natch) as a destructive insect: VIDEO LINK…
    There are more examples in this video….
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/19/eco_astroturf/

    except for andrew bolt’s blog, murdoch’s papers are filled with nonsense such as this:

    18 Feb: Kerrie Sinclair: Courier Mail: Australian companies fill climate niche for Netherlands
    CLIMATE change is bringing an unexpected new challenge for the Netherlands. The nation is used to dealing with too much water. Half its territory is below sea level or is flood-prone, and it is busy raising sea walls to stay ahead of storms and coastal erosion…
    “We face the impact of climate change,” Austrade Holland business development manager Sjoerd Rameckers says.
    http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,26744924-3122,00.html

    incredible kerrie could bring in the recently debunked Netherlands under the sea stuff (albeit with the caveat “or flood-prone”) but kerrie is a long-time capntax/carbon offset promoter/AGW alarmist:

    2007: Courier Mail: Warming to hit food prices
    by Kerrie Sinclair and Michael Madigan
    FOOD prices are about to soar, the national economy hit hard and even a day at the beach could be ruined by the effects of climate change.
    Three new sets of research point to the far-reaching implications global warming is set to have on everyday life in Queensland – as early as this summer..
    http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,20797,22435443-952,00.html?from=public_rss

    it’s time for News Corp to end its shameless pro-AGW promotion in its print media. pointless to ask our TV stations to start exposing the scam in ACA or Today Tonight and the like.

    yesterday, only the Washington Times referenced the collapse of the AGW theory when reporting Yvo de Boer’s resignation:

    18 Feb: Wash Times: EDITORIAL: More errors in temperature data
    The global warming cult sees its superstitions shattered
    Yvo de Boer, the United Nations’ top climate-change official, announced his resignation yesterday. Good riddance. The bureaucrat’s departure is no surprise because his pseudo-scientific global warming religion was proved to be a hoax on his watch…
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/feb/18/more-errors-in-temperature-data/?feat=home_editorials

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    george

    Nearly gagged on a mouthful of muesli just then – “We`ve seen single CLIMATE events destroy beaches”, say what?

    Flannery has gone in to bat for Wong, same lies and a bit more;

    http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Environment/2010/02/19/Beaches_at_risk_from_climate_change_430787.html

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    Peredur

    Does anyone know what the audience response to Wong’s farrago of mischief was? I am sure that if I had made that speech I would have been treated with disdain, and never, never, would I have found my whole spiel given the full SMH treatment. Privilege has its privileges.

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    Angry @ 40 – good link. The full story about the disaster called wind farming is slowly coming out. Funnily enough it was the ABC’s program Background Briefing who first tackled the problems faced by those who live near turbines. That program’s nearly six years old; I wonder if they’ll do an update soon.

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  • #

    Great post Jo. Regarding point 8, turn your PC sound up when viewing this simple, explanatory slideshow I put together:

    8. Carbon markets “work” in Europe… These markets work well to suck spending power from citizens and buy yachts for financial CEO’s.

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    Wyndham Dix

    Wong Reason 4:

    We’ve had lots of “hottest ever records” broken lately:

    Senator Wong is unaware, it seems, of the following:-

    The extant world record for the number of days when the maximum temperature equalled or exceeded 100°F (37.8°C) was set in Marble Bar, Western Australia, between 31 October 1923 and 7 April 1924 – almost 86 years ago.

    The extant Australian maximum daily temperature recorded since record-keeping began occurred at Oodnadatta on 2 January 1960 – more than 50 years ago.

    The maximum temperature recorded in Adelaide was 46.1°C on 12 January 1939 – 71 years ago.

    On only seven occasions has the recorded maximum daily temperature in Adelaide equalled or exceeded 44°C. Four of those seven days fell between 9 and 13 January 1939 – also 71 years ago.

    The following links may be of interest:-

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    Louis Hissink

    Folks,

    Start looking at the “Copenhagen Diagnosis” document – http://www.copenhagendiagnosis.org for the download – but strange it has not been more widely commented on by Climate Realists.

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    Lawrie

    I’ve been crook with Q Fever although I’m pretty sure CC had nothing to do with it. So pleased to see the banner of truth still being waved in spite of the MSM and the die hard Wong. Even her CSIRO are taking some backward steps away from her predictions of disaster.

    Why oh why are so many permitted to LIE and not be called to account?

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    val majkus

    I left this message on the Climategate.com site this morning:
    Our climate change council has produced Preliminary Conclusions
    5 February 2010 (coastal) check out here http://www.climatechange.gov.au/en/media/whats-new/~/media/publications/coastline/coasts-climate-report-pdf.ashx
    (its a 5 page document) and its Adapting to Climate Change paper
    http://www.climatechange.gov.au/government/adapt.aspx
    visit the website for the latest spin from Aust; there’s a science facts and figures tab; after you read that you might want to contact them and the CSIRO
    the Dept of Climate Change has a contact button; not sure about CSIRO

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    user07

    Just a few additional points regarding Wong’s speech.(My comments in italics)

    For the first time, leaders agreed to a framework for a transparent system to track our progress, which is key to getting the environmental outcome the world needs.

    Establishment of global Police to enforce the asset transfer process. Say goodbye to your farms and factories.


    And for the first time, leaders agreed on the finance necessary to support emissions reductions and adaptation in developing countries.

    Billions/Trillions of our national wealth and childrens’ future into the bottomless pit of the globalists reserves. Sheep have to be fleeced, right.

    The world now has major emitters prepared to take action and to be accountable for it. The significance of this should not be overlooked or forgotten.

    The major emitters are Corporations such as Oil Companies, Power Generators, Transporters, Food Groups, Manufacturers. The costs of which will be passed directly to us, the final consumers. Are we starting to see the light here?

    The real target of ‘emissions trading’ is to impose a ‘bank charge’ on transactions involving hydrocarbon fuels, the undeniable and fast depleting lifeblood of our entire civilization. CO2 is the perfect proxy. Direct taxation of hydrocarbon fuels actually has some merit as a means to reduce demand ,the revenue of which can be passed directly to our National coffers

    The Accord includes pledges to cut and limit emissions from countries representing around 80 per cent of global emissions and more than 85% of the global economy.

    Which, if their Governments are corrupt enough to sell out to the Globalsts, will send their economies into a spiral death dive, bankrupting them, before they have time to develop alternative energy strategies


    Remember the people who have been barrackers for policy failure at home and abroad are the same people who have been peddling misinformation and misleading information about the science of climate change.

    A perfect description of the IPCC ,and the charlatan who chairs and profits from it.

    There is, in fact, a certain similarity between debates about the impact carbon pollution is having on our planet, and earlier debates about the impact cigarette smoke has on our health.

    Please, Ms Wong, don’t hide behind the cigarette smokescreen. Your ‘message, is obvious. Anyone who questions the teachings of your ‘science’ is motivated by some sort of evil desire to gamble the future of our offspring for, What? Money, power, prestige? That, if anything is a description of the AGW cultists.

    This country is starting to awake from the insidious guilt trip inflicted on us over the past two decades. We can’t all have jobs with coal/oil companies!

    It’s not hard to imagine these barrackers for failure as the characters in the sequel to ‘Thank you for smoking’, which will be called: ‘Thank you for polluting.’

    Before you imply, that ‘barrackers’ those realists, sceptics and parents who would callously squander the future of their children, look to your own investment in that regard.

    I refer more to the series of breathless, scandalised claims implying that we have all been hoodwinked by climate scientists, who have manipulated evidence and published bare-faced lies as part of a vast conspiracy to de-industrialise the Western world.
    Those hoodwinked would have to include the Pentagon and Margaret Thatcher.

    Margaret Thatcher instigated the Climate Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia, source of Climategate emails. She desired to implement a nuclear power program to reduce dependence on coal for energy. If anyone can remember she loathed Arthur Scargill and his coal mining union strike.

    Discrediting coal was the means to that end, CO2 the end product of burning coal for electricity generation was the innocent scapegoat needed.

    People had a habit of giving Maggie what she wanted.

    So,Margaret Thatcher was the unwitting founding mother of the Warmist Cult.

    Pentagon = Saddam and his Weapons of Mass Destruction, yup, you’d have a hard job fooling those guys.

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    Penny Wong should not have dragged tobacco into this debate. It is irrelevant. In any case I hate tobacco and have never smoked in my life nor had a single warm feeling towards the tobacco lobby. Penny argues that the IPCC is doing a basically good job, yet its former head Robert Watson recently in the Times (15 Feb) raised a point that has long bothered me. He said the IPCC’s numerous mistakes were consistently falling on the alarmist side, not the random spread you would expect from honest error. Much of this is just bad science, driven by a desire to save the supposedly threatened planet in an exciting drama, but not fraud. But the hockey stick/climategate scandals clearly involved attempts to massage the data to make it look better for AGW. See McIntyre on Climate Audit, ‘IPCC and the Trick” for several such deliberate attempts. Penny has also not adequately confronted that awkward MWP, nor considered the solar cycle that probably caused it plus the Little Ice Age plus much at least of the recent rewarming since 1850 – our emissions only started to strongly rise about a century after that date. Nor has she addressed the natural PDO which correlates fairly well with 20th century temperature trends. There is clearly much natural variation in the system, and disentangling any human influence from this is no easy task. In any case, if there ever is a serious AGW, nuclear power is the only currently proven response.

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    matty

    Rudd is in huge trouble. Bad enough that he has Universities and the CSIRO etc filling his head with crap, he then goes and creates a new ministry which can only function to disseminate that crap further. At the head of it is Penny who seems scientifically illiterate – a mushroom – fed shit and kept in the dark by a bunch of advisers who will be looking for jobs in 12 months. Rudd has Penny on this tangent at a time when he won’t even mention AGW. I think he is honestly working out what to do next and he’s not sure yet.

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    val majkus

    He’s leading in the polls and I read a comment in a newspaper the other day that the writer would vote for Rudd because she did not ‘trust’ Abbott; my personal view is that this Govt is the worst we have ever had in my voting lifetime (although I was overseas in the Whitlam years so can’t compare there) but why is he still so popular I wonder

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    Bernd Felsche

    Cognitive dissonance is probably an advantage for lawyers; but only if they can harness it and don’t have to go along for the ride.

    Penny’s hanging on grimly as her cognitive dissonance gallops towards the precipice.

    Rejecting reality results in insanity.

    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. — Marcus Aurelius

    Penny’s lining up beside Jim Hansen.

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    Binny

    They are shuffling the deck chairs and conducting the band, simply because they just cannot think of what else to do.Climate change was supposed to be unsinkable,and here it is sinking. There is no plan B. The unthinkable has happened therefore they are continuing along the business as usual line rather than acknowledge the reality. It is the classic denial.

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    Steve

    Please leave a message for Penny Wong as well I just wrote this to her office

    Penny,

    Are you a climate gate denier. You have run your scare campaign and lost. Co2 does not cause global warming. The sea is not rising. Everything is as it should be. Just ask Phil Jones of the University of East Anglia’s Climatic Research Unit. He has seen that the gig is up and now backing away from previous predictions.
    The question is who is going to be sued for listening to green lunatics. I can see ministers trying to make themselves a small target from the public backlash that is going to follow this global warming scam.

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    David

    The saddest thing is that Wong is one of the best of Rudd’s ministers, not the worst. She has been wasted in the bogus Climate Change portfolio. I suspect that she was genuinely deceived by the global warmers, and bears much less guilt than some other Australian politicians who knew all along it was a scam but are still too cowardly to say so.

    If Rudd was wise, he’d boot Garrett out the door and make Wong the new Minister for the Environment. The Department of Climate Change could then disappear, and if he’s very lucky it might even be forgotten before the election.

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    janama

    good point David.

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    Baa Humbug

    David:
    February 20th, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    The saddest thing is that Wong is one of the best of Rudd’s ministers,

    Best for who? Not for the country. The woman is obviously intelligent. But if she can repeat untruths without blinking an eyelid in the face of building doubt about AGW, then in my book, she is the WORST minister for this country. She obviously cares more for her job than she does for the country she supposedly serves.

    But if I’m wrong about her intelligence, and she is swallowing this AGW line, then she is the MOST INCOMPETENT minister we have. So the only question is, is she the worst because she is an untruth teller or is she the worst because she is incompetent?

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    McHarris

    Seems Ms Wong is denying all of this?
    At your next dinner party, here are some of the latest talking points to bring up when someone reminds you that Al Gore and the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change won Nobel prizes for their work on global warming.

    http://just-me-in-t.blogspot.com/2010_02_01_archive.html

    I note some of you feel sorry for her – her predicamant that is, being stuck in that particular portfolio….. I feel sorry for Peter Garrett too… coz he is the one copping the blame and the angst, but tiz my understanding that Keving wields a mighty BIG stick – you DO as you are told or else – look out!

    I want to see our Elected Representatives actually representing the electorate! Don’t seem to be happening very much does it?

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    Charles Bourbaki

    David – If Rudd was wise, he’d boot Garrett out the door

    He’s got to find him first. It’s understood he’s holed up in the batt-cave with Robin

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    Speedy

    Charles – I think you’ll find that every bit of foil insulation appearing at an inquest will have K.Rudd’s fingerprints on them. PG was acting under orders, and Garrett is probably taking a hit for the team, namely Rudd.

    David & Jamama – I agreed with your comments that Penny may not be the worst of the bunch. Pondering your comments as I mowed the lawn freed up the thought process, and I have come to the same conclusion – eventually – as Baa Humbug, namely that it’s the results that count. Whether she’s stupid or a crook, it’s still the same. She’s not doing the country – or the world – any service by peddling her lies.

    And even is she was the best minister in the government, if she’s Minister in charge of climate change or of Fairies at the Bottom of the Garden – what’s the difference?

    Cheers,

    Speedy

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    Speedy

    Warning. Poor taste moment:

    Peter Garrett: I think I just killed four people.

    Penny Wong: Look on the bright side, at least they weren’t polar bears…

    Very very poor taste, for which I apologise. But the most unpalatable thing about this is that it’s probably more than half true. The green movement will care more about four polar bears found drowned in an arctic storm than about four living, loving humans who were victims of a government’s greed for votes and some shonkey fly-by-night traders who took advantage of the Rudd/Garrett incompetence.

    With apologies,

    Speedy.

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    Ivan

    How can Wong be defending the IPCC, when her department is directly funding their activities?

    Check out the Department of Climate Change / Sheltered Workshop Website:
    http://www.climatechange.gov.au/about/grants.aspx

    Apparently she has no qualms in subsidising the corrupt IPCC in churning out more of the garbage that supports the Rudd government’s “evidence-based policy” on “climate change”. Note also that the IPCC isn’t mentioned anywhere on the website – you have to dig into the grant applications to find this out.

    In a government slightly less corrupted than this one, defending someone you are financing would generally be considered a conflict of interest.

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    Patrick

    Speedy said in post #22: “You’re right – it probably is an arse pluck – pardon the language. ”
    As a very wise Texan I once worked with told me, “If you go around pulling numbers out of your ass, sooner or later you have to smell your fingers.”

    No-one should expect anything less from Penny Wong. After all, she is the Minister for Climate Change and if she stops believing then her ministry will instantly cease to exist.

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    Speedy

    Speedy

    No Dept of Climate Change. And the problem would be???

    Cheers,

    Speedy

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    average joe

    Calamity Wong must be a Chinese double agent.

    Cannot explain her logic in any other way.

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    Rudd, Wong, Obama, Brown–all spewing the same scientifically tone-deaf drivel. It would be funny if they weren’t in fact trying to protect trillion$ in booty they hope to extort.
    More hot air for the hot-air market.

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    Rereke Whaakaro

    There is an excellent summary article by Fred Singer, in the American Thinker, here. It carries yesterdays dateline.

    Perhaps one (or more :-) ) of you Aussies would like to send a copy to Ms Wong; and also perhaps, Mr Abbott?

    I am sure Ms Wong is not a stupid person. She is simply toeing the party line agreed by Cabinet, as she is required to do. But this article just might give her some questions to put to her “advisors”, and their answers might just give her some arguments to take back to Cabinet. Stranger things have happened.

    As an impartial outsider, it is my assessment that this issue has the the potential to bring Governments down.

    Voters, en masse, have the wisdom of crowds, and whereas individuals will put up with all sorts of rubbish from politicians, once the general public consensus shifts away from the stated party line, the party ends up in trouble.

    Remember Labour voters hate being duped as much as Liberal voters.

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    Some more rubbery figures from the Minister for Climate change. I’m beginning to wonder just how much she knows about her portfolio?

    http://abcnewswatch.blogspot.com/2010/02/ministers-wrong-figures-missed.html

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    Speedy

    MarcH

    Steve Fielder asked her the questions and she didn’t have the answers – funny that, it was her job to know them…

    Like Baa-Humbug and Rereke and others have noted – the science of global warming is something she WOULD or SHOULD understand. She doesn’t.

    What does that tell you?

    Cheers,

    Speedy

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    Speedy -What does that tell you?

    Tells me she has a script writer
    Tells me she does not know her stuff
    Tells me she is a puppet of the Krudd Government

    What it aslo tells me is that we are in a very sad stae here in Australia. Seems it matters not which party you vote for, they both believe in the myth of Man Made Climate Change.

    We wrote an OPEN LETTER to Tony Abbott and greg Hunt the other day, still waiting for an answer mind you……….
    (sorry for posting it in its entirity, but I think it all applies, names and address witheld for privacy reasons)

    An Open Letter to:
    The Hon Tony Abbott MP
    Leader of the Opposition
    Parliament House, Canberra
    Tony.Abbott.MP@aph.gov.au
    And
    The Hon Greg Hunt MP
    Shadow Minister for Climate Action,
    Environment and Heritage
    Email: Greg.Hunt.MP@aph.gov.au

    Dear Sirs,

    Re: Climate Change and your proposals for Australia in this regard.

    It is our understanding that when discussing Climate Change, people are actually referring to the Theory of Man Made Climate change due to the (so called) excessive emissions of Carbon Dioxide released into the atmosphere, supposedly causing the temperature of the planet to warm, thereby endangering all life on Earth. If our understanding is incorrect, then there really is no point in continuing this letter. Assuming that our understanding is correct, we continue:

    It seems that the Liberal Party is going to continue down the same, well worn but rocky road as that of the Labor Party, and push onto Australians the necessity to curb carbon emissions, to fall in line with other World Government proposals. Be it a 5% cut or a 25% cut, one must ask why? This letter is not discussing the Liberal Party’s Direct Action Plan versus the Labor Party’s Carbon Emissions Trading Scheme. Merely the fact that either Party (Once in power) will impose Carbon Cut’s in some way or another, because of so called (unproven) Man Made Climate Change

    It has not been shown to be factual that human kind has caused or is causing any rise in global temperatures. Day after day, further information is coming to light proving that figures and data, used to infer the ‘theory’ of AGW (Man Made Global warming) is doubtful at best and falsified at worst. The latest scandal involves the selective cherry picking of temperature data and placement of weather stations around the world. We refer you to the Washington Times Editorial: More Errors in Temperature Data. (http://washingtontimes.com/news/2010/feb/18/more-errors-in-temperature-data/?feat=home_editorials )

    What we would like you to explain to us is why the Liberal Party feels it is necessary to traverse the same path, by a different name, and enforce carbon cuts on the Australian Nation should it become the winner in the next Federal Election which is looming?

    Surely it is better to get all the scientific facts, up on the table, and before the public view, so that the electorate can see for themselves why their Elected Representatives are leading them down an unnecessary path to Carbon Cutting measures.

    Should however, the science be shown to be correct – in that we humans are responsible for Climate Change, we feel certain you will have much support for your plan as opposed to that of Kevin Rudd’s. Right now though there is no proof nor consensus, and many like ourselves are left wondering why we should vote for you, when you will only attempt the same thing under a different name.

    Far too much is being done and dealt, behind closed doors. We have not seen you Mr. Abbott or your Minister Mr. Hunt, dealing with the scandals which are almost weekly emerging in the area of Climate Science. Yes we hear you debating the dangers of insulation and solar power installations; they are very topical issues, as are health and education. We would dearly like to see you debating the issues of fabricated or incorrect warming data and the possibility there being no need to deal with carbon emissions at all.

    So this still leaves us questioning the semantics of Climate Change. Is it real? Is it happening? Are we humans causing the temperature to rise because of our increase in Carbon Dioxide Emissions? Is there any proof this is so? Professor Bob Carter has a couple of excellent short video’s showing just how the CO2 question, relating to Man Made Global Warming (Climate Change) does not stack up. We think it is worth you while viewing them. (part one), (part two)

    You cause us great sadness in that you are merely traversing the same path as Mr. Rudd, and his path looks like it will lead to him gaining employment at the UN when his term as Prime Minister of Australia is over. We had dreamed of better things of him too.

    We had hoped and prayed for a new leadership, taking us in a new direction, it seems we need to pray harder.

    Sincerely, K & C

    (names and address withheld for privacy reasons)

    Wynyard TAS

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    Speedy

    McHarris 77

    Wong is just a pretty expensive puppet, then? Great.

    As to talking to the Liberals, there’re improving (compare them with before mid November!) but there’s a lot of momentum to shift amongst the public. I like your letter but don’t expect you’ll get a response until the public is more up to speed. In the meantime, we can vote for the Nationals and or Family First ahead of the parties that are still following the IPCC line. Even if it doesn’t give the power to Family First/Nationals, it still provides the party “leadership” with the manifesto they need to be more progressive.

    You might also note that even though we dislike Abbots’s concecession to the IPCC, it is one that can be easily unwound – unlike the Rudd/Wong/Turnbull carbon trading rort.

    Cheers,

    Speedy

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    Speedy

    Time to drop the Penny…

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    val majkus

    Hi Speedy; great letter; the only thing I would say is that when you refer to something in your letter better to refer to the scientific study rather than the newspaper report of the study (in the first case I think that would be WUWT(check out his site Watts Up with That it’s there somewhere and maybe Warwick Hughes http://www.warwickhughes.com/blog/ for Australian data)
    that’s the difference between first hand evidence and ‘hearsay evidence’
    otherwise great letter
    although it is implied I would suggest you ask recipients to do something
    and check out the other open letter written to all Aust MP’S
    http://www.climategate.com/an-open-letter-to-australian-members-of-parliament

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    Speedy

    Val

    Point taken – thanks!

    Speedy

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    val majkus

    speedy here’s the reference for Watts and Joe D’Aleoh http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/01/26/new-paper-on-surface-temperature-records/#more-15700 which I think is one of the papers to which your letter refers

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    val majkus

    and speedy congratulations on doing something not just expressing an opinion; I realise a lot of other people here are doing something but it is great to see the action happening

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    val majkus

    speedy if you publish your letter at “the lies of Australian Climate Minister …” http://www.climategate.com/the-lies-of-aussie-climate-minister-penny-wong you’ll get a bit more publicity and hopefully enthuse more writers

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    Peter of Sydney

    If Wong is saying climate change is happening more quickly than we previously thought then how come they are still trying to introduce an ETS with such pathetically low targets that even the Greens won’t agree to because they are already too low? Does Wong realise how stupid she looks for making such statements, even if true? The only honest thing for Rudd to do if he really believes in the AGW theory is to at least match the Green’s target as presented in their policy statement on their web site, namely for Australia to achieve net zero greenhouse gas emissions as soon as is feasible and by no later than 2050 with a minimum of 40% reduction on 1990 levels by 2020. Of course we all know that such a policy would destroy this country, and Rudd knows this, which is why he’s never going to even try to introduce such harsh targets. So, where does this leave Wong with her statement that climate change is happening more quickly? Fully exposed as to her real character: stupid and/or deceitful.

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    val majkus:

    gulp… being new here I do not want to err………. so I ask this question ever so politely BUT did, does, do you Speedy have a letter to which majkus is referring to? I am on a learning curve here, so forgive my impudence (grin)

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    val majkus

    Hi McHarris; I’m referring to the letter in comment 77; think that is a quote and the letter is from Speedy or McHarris; sorry it oculd be from you; I thought it was a quote; if it’s yours then my comments to Speedy should be directed to you instead – and if that’s the case please accept my apologies

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    val majkus

    Thanks for the clarification… I was unsure if there was another letter I had missed. I am real pleased to have read other commentors suggestions….. I am new at this but the agro is growing daily and I wanted to VENT with my employees…… you know – them lot in Canberra which my hard earned taxes have supported!

    Thanks again Just ME in T

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    Speedy

    McHarris 86 etc

    Firstly, welcome! Secondly, no, I didn’t write the letter but I did endorse it, with the comments mentioned earlier – which would have been improved by your own. The truth is what matters…

    Cheers,

    Speedy.

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    Who posted those 4 downs on my comment at 6?
    Look out Jo! Kev and/or Penny must be stalking this site.

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    Jacques Voorhees

    Wait, this isn’t a joke. I’m an American, and thought this “Dept. of Climate Change” was a spoof. You really HAVE such a thing in Australia? That’s really…embarassing. Of course I can’t throw stones. We have the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) which has ruled that CO2 in the atmosphere is pollution. (Just hope they don’t decide to go after oxygen next. Then we’ll really be screwed.)

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    Roy Hogue

    Are you sure that Penny Wong is not just some standup comedian masquerading as an MP?

    I thought Obama was bad, but Wong takes the cake.

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    MadJak

    Jacques Voorhees @ 91,

    Alas yes, I am ashamed to admit that yes, we are stupid enough to have a Minister of Climate change over here. How much it cost to setup and run, I have no idea.

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    Jacques Voorhees

    MadJak: Here are some other cabinet positions that might be useful:

    1) Minister of Earth’s Orbit
    2) Minister of Gravity
    3) Minister of Cosmic Waves
    4) Minister of Tectonic Plate Movement
    5) Minister of Saturn’s Rings
    6) Minister of the Tides.

    In fact, I’m surprised civilization has been able to flourish as it has, with these positions not being filled. Added benefit: staffing these agencies I’m sure will create many new jobs, and we can fund the budgets by imposing a tax on tectonic plate movement. (Wow, I think I missed my calling. I should work for government )

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    MadJak

    Jacques,

    I’ll take the minister of Saturns rings position, that would be great fun.

    I’m sure most people over here wouldn’t mind it if other countries take the mickey out of us for this one. It is yet another really absurd thing that seems to have missed a lot of people – until someone asks the question that is.

    Yeah, I think it’s absolutely typical of people coming form an insular environment – oh no the sky is falling, quick, let’s put together a committee and implement a bureaucracy – sure that’ll fix it.

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    Madjak: 95

    Yeah, I think it’s absolutely typical of people coming form an insular environment – oh no the sky is falling, quick, let’s put together a committee and implement a bureaucracy – sure that’ll fix it.

    What a scream….. I was wondering about the ministry of techtonic plate movement – now see here if a tax were imposed, every time a movement occurred, think of the amount of money Krudd would have to spend, and he could cease borrowing from overseas etc…..

    Then there could be the ministry of cloud movement or rain drops falling or fog off the ocean…… the ideas are never ending heheheh :-)

    However all fun frolick and laughter aside, it sure makes us look stoopid don’t it! When will two Wrongs make a Right? (Wongs make a wite) Never in my book – at least that was what I was taught growing up – has that now changed?

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    MadJak

    McHarris,

    Minister of Methane emissions – I think there was a new Zealand governement that had that one sewn up at some point?

    man, taxing methane emissions – I’d love to be trading the transactions of that one….

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    Minister of Methane emissions

    Man you are one sick puppy :-)

    A Real STINKER of a job – that one

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    Have appreciated help from folks here….. just put up a new blog…. want to keep it IN YOUR FACE with the Aussie public….

    http://just-me-in-t.blogspot.com/2010_02_01_archive.html
    The Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI) quite possibly costs less than the search for an undeniable proof that Human Kind and its CO2 Emissions are heating up the planet! (AGW)

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    Anne-Kit Littler

    Jacques Voorhees (#91), I think you’ll find that – embarrassingly – most European countries have Departments of Climate Change as well …

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    MadJak

    Anne-Kitt @100,

    But do they have the really important ministries that Jacques was elaborating on?

    If we had problems with Gravity, we would be in some real strife, wouldn’t we?

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    ANGRY

    SUBJECT: INVESTORS Representing $13 Trillion Call on U.S. and Other Countries to Move Quickly to Adopt Strong Climate Change Policies

    Have a look at the INSIDIOUS AGENDA promoting this global warming HOAX.
    It’s ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!
    Nothing to do with SCIENCE!!

    http://www.unep.org/Documents.Multilingual/Default.asp?DocumentID=608&ArticleID=6446&l=en&t=long

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    ANGRY

    If we had a Ministry For Common Sense penny WRONG would be LOCKED UP!!

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    george

    Angry @ 102, can`t believe the gall dripping from that article;

    “Given that Copenhagen was a missed opportunity to create one fully functional international carbon market…”

    And Kevin 737 told me it was all about an emissions REDUCTION accord. Then again I probably misunderstood him due to the fact that, according to Clive Hamilton, by inference I am a blinkered misanthropic sociopath. My bad.

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    Jacques Voorhees

    So if all these countries have Departments or Ministries of Climate Change, do you suppose they have weekly conference calls to decide how much and in which direction to change the climate? Kind of like Treasury officials working out where to set interest rates?

    “So, I’m thinking we go 1 degree cooler next week.”
    “Are you daft? They just got a meter and a half of snow in Washington. I vote warmer. Big time.”
    “Morons. Any warmer and the polar bears will all die.”
    “I think the lot of you are stuffed. Any cooler and we lose the grape harvest in Italy.”
    “Well that would be your problem, wouldn’t it? We’ve got a drought here in Australia, so whether we go warmer or cooler, I’m insisting on wetter.”
    “Wetter? After the floods last week in Portugal? We need to stop the rainfall immediately or we’ll all be out of jobs.”

    …and so on. And after they all agree, I suppose they sign sort of a micro-Kyoto memo for the week and set out to increase or decrease CO2 emissions accordingly. Tough job, but I can certainly understand that someone’s got to do it. If you left climate control to big oil or the free market, that would be chaos…

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    MadJak

    Jacques,

    LOL. Now that analogy has legs, I reckon

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    I watched Q & A on ABC TV last evening, and found myself snarling loudly – or was that hissing? (having a realy hissy fit!) over the way both the panel members (EXCLUDING John Roskam
    ) and the majority of the studio audience were lapping up Malcom Turnbull’s ETS propaganda …. all for the good of the Australian Nation.

    When John Roskam dared to venture an opinion contrary to the ‘accepted norm’ (that AGW is affecting us and the deal is done – there shall be no arguments) he was almost booed! (or was that laughed out of the panel?) I was both deeply saddened and also HORRIFIED that no one stood against Turnbull on the panel and that the entire studio audience was mesmerised and enthralled by his stance. OH yes he stood ‘firmly’ for Abbott EXCEPT on the matter of an ETS… where he was ‘saddened’ to have to cross the floor!

    When will we get a chance to put our opinions across? GULP they are still peddling the line that (ONE) a little error in the IPCC report does not change that fact that we humans are causing Climate Change! HEAVEN HELP ME PLEASE.

    Corruption at the highest levels and we have to fight that!

    I shall get down off my horse now….. but I do sense another blog comming on.

    Just ME in T

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    Grrrrrrrr forgot to snarl loudly when Turnbull gave the highest praise to Margaret Thatcher…… Oh yes I THINK that is when naughty words spewed from my delicate lips!

    Must go wash my mouth out with soap :-(

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    Anne-Kit Littler

    Latest news from Parliament:

    Nick Xenophon backs alternative ETS model

    For non-Australians: Xenophon is an independent MP who has previously voted against the Government’s ETS. Now muddying the waters with his own version. Although debate on the ETS has now been postponed until May, it is not over by a long stretch and we have to remain vigilant and keep up the pressure.

    It is evident that the other side is rattled (viz. Clive Hamilton’s articles on ABC Drum) and our job is to keep’em well and truly rattled!

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    val majkus

    anyone got any idea on what Senators Boyce and Troeth are now supporting

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    val majkus

    I’ve written to Senators Boyce and Troeth asking if they support Tony Abbott’s Direct Action or the Govt’s ETS; let you know if I get a reply

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    NOT sure if this has been discussed:
    (What do we have in Ozzy that would be same as this?)

    Forget the climate change detractors: Those who deny climate change science are irritating, but unimportant. The argument is not about if we should deal with climate change, but how we should deal with climate change.
    http://just-me-in-t.blogspot.com/2010/02/next-ploy.html

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    george

    McHarris, this is my favourite – truer words were never spoken;

    “19. The communications must be sustained over time
    All the most successful public awareness campaigns have been
    sustained consistently over many years.”

    Ring a bell, anyone?

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    Just read this:
    Author: gb
    Comment:
    More on Inhofe, no one seems to >own< this guy.

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/climategate-and-the-law-senator-inhofe-to-ask-for-congressional-criminal-investigation-pajamas-mediapjtv-exclusive/

    Wondering WHY Oh Why we are not having investigations in Oz like this…. out in the public forum… do we have any Parlimentarians with backbone?

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    val majkus

    McHarris; I suggest that you and I and other like minded people write to our elected reps (particularly the Senate where the ETS currently is) but include PM Abbott and Environment Minister and Shadow Minister sending links to WUWT (where the full report can be read) and demanding that action on the ETS be stayed pending the outcome of the USA Senate hearing (if there is one) Senator Inhofe’s announcement today appears to be the first time a member of Congress has formally called for an investigation into research misconduct and potential criminal acts by the scientists involved and I (living in Aust) have no idea whether his call will result into the called for investigation; links to the report can be found at http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/23/climategate-minority-report/#more-16658 and the report and its summary are interesting reading

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    val majkus:

    is there a way we can contact each other off this list?

    Also regarding the new political party ‘The Climate Sceptics’… someone here mentioned being a founding member???? are you / they doing anything about this for Australia?

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    val majkus

    Hi McHarris; I’m not a member of the ‘Climate Sceptics’ – as to contacting me did you say a couple of days ago that you have a blogsite; can I contact you there; don’t really want to publicise my e mail address although most commentators here are like minded

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    val majkus:

    I am seriously interested in what you might have to say, perhaps we can communicate initially via the CONTACT ME at this site. Thanks

    http://just-me-in-t.site40.net/index.php

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    MadJak

    Paul,

    That is really interesting stuff. there. I have posted the link on todays blog posting also.

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    MattB

    An argument against swallowing Misckolczi’s work hook-line-and-sinker
    http://www.realclimate.org/wiki/index.php?title=Ferenc_Miskolczi

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    MadJak

    MattB,

    Regarding:

    An argument against swallowing Misckolczi’s work hook-line-and-sinker

    His response can be found here:
    http://miskolczi.webs.com/Answers_to_some_criticism.htm

    Pretty clear response. You wouldn’t be taking advice from the University of East Anglia now would you Mattb?

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    MadJak

    MattB:

    and here is the start of their summary….

    It is apparent that Nick’s opinions regarding Miskolczi’s data and results is stemming either from a complete lack of understanding regarding radiative theory, or a deliberate attempt to falsify or discredit Miskolczi’s data, relations, equations, solutions and ultimately his analysis of the greenhouse effect. Nick Stokes and RealClimate.org, NOAA, NASA, and the UN/IPCC have failed to disprove Miskolczi’s work. This group is pushing an agenda.

    Gee, agenda, from RC? Nahh, can’t be can it?

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    Baa Humbug

    MadJak:
    February 25th, 2010 at 2:44 pm

    Thanks m8, I hadn’t seen that. It’l make a nice addition to the paper.
    I just love the simplicity of this conclusion…

    If the Earth could warm, it would have done so long before our emissions, by hundreds of millions of years. It does not need our CO2. There are vast quantities of H2O for a runaway greenhouse effect for her if she wants.

    The usual response to the above is that wv is saturated at current temps. Yep, one GHG is saturated but the other isn’t, pull the other one.

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    Baa Humbug

    MadJak: Thanks for the support at the Drumline mate, appreciated :)

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    MadJak

    Cheers Baa Humbug,

    I was just thinking – if the 6 or 7 pro AGW trolls over there are all the support Clive got at the higgins bi-election.

    I wonder when his final rant will go up?

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    Baa Humbug

    MadJak:
    February 25th, 2010 at 8:53 pm
    here you go madjack, something new we can slap him with.

    Now it’s droughts.
    A paper by Sheffield et al (2009) in Journal of Climate studied global droughts from 1950-2000 and found no increases in length or severity of droughts. Via World Climate Report

    Four of the six continental record breaking droughts occurred in the 50′s and the other two in the 80′s.

    The IPCC’s technical summary stated clearly that droughts would become more severe and prevalent. Apparently not.

    No increase in hurricanes, no increase in droughts, on and on it goes. The only increase I detect is in the alarmism borne out of sheer desperation.

    What was Hamilton saying about not finding any contrary papers despite desperate a search? Wank*r

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    Bush bunny

    Mark post 10? Tony Windsor is 100% against ETS and CPRS but 100% for sustainability in the event of climate change which ever way it goes, colder or warmer. As a farmer he knows the importance of soil carbon sequestration, bio diversity, soil science/fertility and the Murray Darling river system, that has been effected not by climate change but diversions to improve cotton cultivation in Southern Queensland. That has been ignored by both State and Federal governments and particularly with regards control over governments requisiton of agricultural lands for agro-forestry and biofuels productions at the expense of land for food and animal husbandry. He attended Peter Spencer’s protest about this in Canberra. He feels that the government’s agendas will limit global food security. He is fair dinkum and I support him 100%.

    Although an Independent he has voting powers, and is supported
    by the Nationals, although they politically don’t always agree with him, because politically he is an Independent. (Ex National) I don’t agree the Greens will side with the ALP Government, I know in NSW Senator John Kaye said the ETS scheme
    would do nothing to prevent climate change (Although I do not personally agree with the science that AGW is creating climate change at all in fact it is a myth perpetrated by Al Gore who
    won an Academy Award and Nobel Prize (that I believe he should
    hand back) and because of his incorrect science, billions and trillions have been invested in Carbon Credit Trading including
    the BBC pension scheme, that was encouraged and could lose all their investments. Malcolm Turnbull is an executive of Goldman Sachs who have invested or encouraged investors to put millions or trillions of Euros into Carbon Credits Trading investments. If the South Sea Bubble or Climate Change bubble
    bursts this will have more impact on the global economy than any
    few C increase in global temps will have.

    The climate change has been again like the milleniun bug fiasco
    been driven by speculators who thought they would make millions
    from a scam, and when it came down to earth it was the consumer
    who suffered.

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    Bush Bunny:

    Malcolm Turnbull is an executive of Goldman Sachs who have invested or encouraged investors to put millions or trillions of Euros into Carbon Credits Trading investments. If the South Sea Bubble or Climate Change bubble
    bursts this will have more impact on the global economy than any
    few C increase in global temps will have.

    I know I am a bit daft at times…. and a tad simple when it comes to politics, but IF this about MT is correct, surely there is a conflict of interest here? I do not ever remember reading or hearing that he was an executive of this company… is it openly declared for all electors to know about and understand that THIS IS WHY he is pushing the ETS wagon?

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    adding to my previous question….
    I do not like myself for asking this tho:

    How many other is the Labor Party have investments in ETS etc, that would undoubtedly lose money when the walls come tumbling down – as surely they will as more and more of this gets exposed?

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    [...] 10 Wong reasons to tax us // joannenova.com.au (No Ratings Yet)  Loading … Filed Under: News, Views and CommentsTagged: climate science, Co2, Penny Wong, Tax [...]

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    seen this today?

    So the bottom line is that we are trying to claim that just 250 years’ human emissions of CO2, a mere trace gas that is present in the atmosphere at a concentration of less than 0.04%, the gas that is insignificant compared with water vapor, will cause major effects in the future, even though today’s fluctuations in temperature and CO2 have been seen in the past.

    http://just-me-in-t.blogspot.com/2010/02/scientific-backbone-alive-and-well.html

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    MadJak

    McHarris,

    yep, saw that last night when you put it up. Very good. If you want your hit count to go ballistic – put it up on Clive Hamiltons latest rant.

    I have put up a 499 word spiel on it on Clives Blog. It is copied on the skeptics handbook at copenhagen post.

    THANK YOU PAUL and THANK YOU JO.

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    MadJak:

    which one in particular please?

    you caused me to :-) coz I just did a clean up of my blog and wrecked my visitor counter heheh starting woith a clean slate again ahhhhhh never mind.

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    MadJak

    here’s the latest one – be one of the first comments:

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2830890.htm

    They may not be too receptive to being a sceptic though.

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    OK I just am posting it now we shall see……….. I do enjoy a good conversation :-) only thing wrong with this letter is that the name of the scientist is not mentioned :-(

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    Bush bunny

    Hi McHarris, The Citizens Electoral Council of Australia are hot shots at ferreting out things one wouldn’t read in the press.

    Try this http://www.cecaust.com.au then ‘search’ for ‘Goldman
    Sachs’ Turnbull dances to British carbon trading’.

    I have written to several pollies State and Federal and asked
    them to ask parliament (Federal House of Reps and the Senate) and also in two State houses “Who has investments in Carbon Credits Trading?” Because like you I feel if they vote FOR the ETS bill they have pecuniary interests. It’s a difficult one, as they should be representing their electorates’ wishes, and MT is in Wentworth a Liberal electorate, with plenty of rich residents? Maybe they have already followed the leader and invested too. Turnbull had a hand in HIH too. Nothing illegal
    but that’s another story. Just Google Malcolm Turnbull, you’ll
    get a surprise.

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    Bush bunny

    Senator Penny Wong and Tim Flannery. Well I know a bit about
    Flannery. He wrote a very good article in some magazine (can’t
    remember which one, sorry it’s twenty years ago). He was discussing why elephants were dieing in Kenya or somewhere in
    Africa he used to help explain the demise of the megafauna around the time of the ending of the last ice age. It happened
    all over the world then. I used it in an essay that I got a distinction for at Uni. (My major was Archaeology and Palaeoanthropology. He said they would not walk away from the only waterhole, which was their normal pattern to walk from
    one waterhole to another. Unfortunately they didn’t die of thirst, they ate themselves out eventually. They starved while
    afraid to leave their waterhole. That was a realistic solution, as it was the browsers not the grazers that died out. Some evolved into smaller versions of the original.

    Then years later he is saying the megafauna died because of human hunting? And then timed it to the arrival of the Australia Aborigines. No archaeological evidence supports this evidence, except one spear point alongside a big kangaroo. Around a dried up waterhole. Changes his views
    to get published.

    I wonder who booed Penny at the IPCC climate summit. Must google and find out.

    Greens are not for ETS scheme, I spoke to a Green State Senator because he said it was ridiculous. The big polluters would be
    given carbon credits and still go one belting out CO2. And the Greens were for taxing farmers $11 per head for cattle, and $7 per head for sheep, per YEAR! How many sheep have we got in
    Australia, I think it is about 1.8 million, maybe more. And if you google their website, they are also from global governance
    and reducing the world’s population.

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    seen this?
    The university whose climate scientists’ e-mails sparked the “climategate” uproar provided its first detailed rebuttal of the accusations on Thursday.

    and yet there is nothing as yet up at the Review Web Site

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    Skeptics don’t doubt science—they doubt unscientific claims cloaked in the authority of science. The scientific method is a foundation of our information age, with its approach of a clearly stated hypothesis tested through a transparent process with open data, subject to review.

    The IPCC report was instead crafted by scientists hand-picked by governments when leading politicians were committed to global warming. Unsurprisingly, the report claimed enough certainty to justify massive new spending and regulations.

    just posted http://just-me-in-t.blogspot.com/2010/02/how-to-unravel-unravelable.html

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    Bush bunny

    You know Jo and fellow posters, I am very scared about the outcome of all this. The Euro is in trouble, One Danish bank
    has collapsed. Greece is in trouble. And 20 million animals are dieing in Mongolia. Sea Cows are dieing in Florida from the cold. The Gulf Stream is slowing and diverting. And all that money invested in Carbon Trading, trillions of Euros. US president Obama had suggested in his Congress speech ‘State of the Union’ We must compete and we will with China and Europe in leading the way in Clean Energy, nuclear, and drilling off shore for gas and oil (Cheers from the
    house) no mention of wind and a little mention of employing people in the solar panel industry.

    I think it is suddenly dawning on them we may well be already be experiencing a mini ice age. The lost of animals in Mongolia has me worried. The impact on the people and in rural Northern Asia and Europe would be disasterous.

    I hate to say this, but I think nuclear is the way to go, that
    Rudd has dismissed. Although plans are for a hydroelectric cum solar and wind generators in Scone to provide electricity for
    45,000 homes. 26 wind generators west of Glen Innes.(Well that’s a waste of time, and money) But Scone is in the Upper Hunter Valley is prime agricultural land.

    The cash loses in Carbon Trading Credits looks like failing,
    and you can imagine the effect this will have on global finance
    already under stress. And Great Britain lucky they didn’t get
    into the Euros.

    This climate change scam can have more problems than we thought
    that the prime movers will have to take responsibility for.

    Even the Haiti earthquake is being blamed on climate change, and why Obama won’t evacuate 1 million people. (One MILLION) Talk of impeaching him?
    I suppose they could go across the border. Anyway must feed
    the dogs, it’s their tummy time 5 pm.

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    Bush Bunny et al

    Did I not read recently that wind farms ….. as in wind power electricity are only of use when THE WIND BLOWS? Living in Tassie where we have (supposedly) the cleanest air on the planet, and some pretty hard blowing gales to drive the turbines, it seems pretty logical to make use of what nature provides… but what about in other places? Was it the UK that discovered the wind don’t always blow so they don’t always have the power they need?

    There is mention also from Krudd et all about thermal energy….. being investigated.

    The scene as in the push for proof of the AGW theory , seems to be heating up, but we have to remember there are some pretty big fighters on the opposition teams pushing AGW as being real. We need to recruit more into our army!

    Dinner time here also. Bfn

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    You just gotta love scientists. Seems some things are simply part of the natural progression – and not caused by climate change (hurrah)

    Natural Progression huh? Is that kind of like the climate changes in cycles? All part of the natural progression of things perhaps?

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    Bush bunny

    Wind farms? Well Denmark was the only manufacturer of them, but still depends on coal fired electricity. Yep McHarris, you need
    the wind to make them work, and they are cheaper to replace than
    repair. UK has ordered quite a few from Germany I believe, and people are fuming. Same as solar panels, if they break down or are damaged they still need to have main grid backup. And I believe there is great dissatisfaction with wind generators in UK. I mean to power pylons were ugly too and buzzed.

    They are ugly and noisy and can’t be relied on. But the environmentalists say they are better than grid supplied electricity. Dearer too no doubt. In Europe they used gas
    and oil now turning back to coal again. What a mess, Thank you
    Mr Gore, your name seems to suggest what might happen in the future.

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    Bush bunny

    McHarris, see the Four Corners on ABC the last two Mondays, about
    the outbreak of cancer in humans, tumours in Tassie Devils and the
    George’s river oyster farm destruction? That’s in NW Tasmania I believe. I only saw the first one but they wanted a scientific survey done by the government who said there was no scientific evidence to warrant it? LOL So they did one themselves. They had been spraying tree planations in the catchment area. Anyway they reckoned it was what the eucalypti plantation was actually poisoning the water. Something the trees were producing. Must google and see what it was. So much for agroforestry to soak up CO2.

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    MattB

    Bush Bunny could I refer you to bravenewclimate blog for superb commentary on nuclear vs renewables…. and just renewables in general.

    I think for once we agree… nuclear is the clear winner.

    The way I see it is that nuclear gives the cheap energy society craves, and the low carbon the environmental types crave, meaning everybody wins. You don’t have to believe in AGW to support nuclear power. I’ll work on getting my side of the fence on board (but from BNC you’ll find the tide is turning).

    Why argue the toss about AGW… we need a bipartisan commitment to nuclear power, and research in to improving it ti GenIV which truly is the golden goose! (forget fusion).

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    MattB

    And Bushy – you say RUdd has dismissed, but lets not be partisan over this… Howard didn’t exactly sweep nuclear in during his 12 years.

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    MadJak

    MattB@149

    Howard didn’t exactly sweep nuclear in during his 12 years

    And Chamberlain didn’t think that hitler would invade Poland? Relevance?

    One thing though Matt, I’ve been hearing noises about a shortage of U235(?). Is this the same logic as the oil shortage and peak oil argument, or is it real?

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    Bush bunny

    MattB: I had a quick look at the bravenewworld website. And the first thing I noticed was JAMES HANSEN will be Australia for a talk on 10th March in Adelaide. No news if he will be speaking anywhere else. $22 AUD a session. Of course SA are planning geo thermal generation, having a few hot spots in their state. I’m wary of geo thermal. They are not accident free.

    Trouble with James is he predicted a new ice age by 2050. This was in 1971 now he’s changed his mind.

    As far as nuclear energy is concerned, I know Obama is pushing this I heard Indonesia was planning a plant. Obama and family are visiting Australia and Indonesia next month. Iran has given Japan the task of building 5 new nuclear plants.

    I am beginning to switch my ideas on nuclear plants. These new
    ones are much safer than Chenobyl. My reservations are where they will be built. Up at the top end is too close for comfort
    if some terrorists planned to attack it. But I am no expert
    in this MattB. I know many are swinging in favor of nuclear.

    But plans are in place for 26 wind generators west of Glen Innes
    (Northern Tablelands to service 15,000 homes) and a Hydro cum wind cum solar plant in Scone (Upper Hunter Valley to service 45,000 homes) How they intend to operate a Hydroelectric plant there I haven’t a clue.

    Whatever the outcome, electricity will cost more by how much I do not know. But the Electricity commission forecasts in the not to distant future, they will not be able to service Sydney properly. Sydney is going it alone and installing solar panels.

    The question is ‘Would you like a nuclear plant’ in your area.
    My answer is NO. Wind generators (Warl – if they worked)

    Would you approve a Hydo electricity plant, Yes I would. However they need water and create dams etc., that would have
    some effect on the environment. This might put pressure on our
    precious water supply? Snowy River system is unique.

    Also electricity can be generated via using up sugar cane refuse. There’s a plant in Australia. Their bitch with PW is
    solar is beating them with all the rebates offered, but no rebates for them to subsidize their operation. She’s looking into this.

    I think large cities would benefit from nuclear power. However
    smaller communities of less than 50,000 or so, might or could use different means of power generation.

    But – if CO2 emissions are not creating climate change, why change so quickly.

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    Bush bunny

    MattB. “Dere’s money in building nuclear plants’ and in Obama’s
    State of the Union speech in Congress, he emphasised the need to invest in clean energy, and America will be left behind by Europe
    and China if they do not invest. (Trade wars eh?) He mentioned nuclear, drilling off shore for gas and oil (cheers from the Congress) and employing people manufacturing solar panels.

    No mention of wind generators. His speech is available via UTube. Now he is pushing nuclear above all others I read. Trying to win over the GOP to pass his clean energy bill.

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    JM

    My god Joanne you really need to learn your Australian history before you write your headlines.

    Have you ever heard of Arthur Calwell? “two wongs don’t make a white”?

    I’d rewrite this headline if I were you.

    Consider this message as a very strong request that you do so.

    This particular bad pun has been off the table in this country for a long time.

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    Bush Bunny

    Nah JM, I see it as it’s meant to be and it ain’t wong it’s Wong. LOL Hope no one on this list has been effected by the Chilian earthquake. They had a bad one in Japan the day before. Natural disasters are a leveller aren’t they? In archaeology we were told
    ‘Human’s prepose – Mother Nature disposes’ Sadly in glacial periods there are for some reason more earthquakes and eruptions.

    Anyone know why? I should know it was my major.

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    JM: Point Taken – except this is the funny thing about racism. If it’s ok to call our PM “Krudd” and make fun of people of european ancestry, then having to pussy foot and pander to other races is a quiet put-down of those other races isn’t it? It almost suggests Australians with asian ancestry need some special care, and don’t have a sense of humor, a good grasp of the English Language and are still not as powerful.

    Ms Penny Wong has risen to the “top 100″ list of power in this country. It’s high time to treat her as an equal.

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    While I read this the North is again covered in freezing weather and huge snow depositions that for 4000 years forced the Chinese to retreat South during these times and move North when the soils warmed in late Spring – its on the record. Penny Wong, trying to convince us that the science at Copenhagen was a done deal and therefore justification for all nations to sign up was too young to be aware of the lessons of history. Nations would never agree to a monitoring system for their emissions to GW.( Chamberlain,”Peace in Our Time” after a meeting with Hitler is the best example.) What effect for the World if only Australia curbs its emissions by an ETS tax while the rest of the industrial nations carry on as usual? If the C is rising in the atmosphere it requires a great deal more vegetation to consume it and in the process of photosynthesis provide the oxygen for life, not a tax. Over 2 billion extra souls breathing the oxygen over the next 40 years will demand that it be so one way or another.

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    In an article in the NYT Al once again spews forth his diatribe, telling us he truly wishes that the climate crisis were an illusion. Really Al Baby that would mean you had lost gazillions of dollars unwisely invested in Carbon Credit Schemes.

    The remainder of the article goes on in the usual fashion spreading the story that humanity is killing the planet, and using emotional blackmail, such as our Grandchildren would one day look back on us as a criminal generation that had selfishly and blithely ignored clear warnings that their fate was in our hands.

    http://just-me-in-t.blogspot.com/2010/02/you-have-been-replaced-mr-gore.html

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    Richard S Courtney

    Bush Bunny:

    At #146, concerning wind farms you say:

    They are ugly and noisy and can’t be relied on. But the environmentalists say they are better than grid supplied electricity. Dearer too no doubt.

    I think you may want to read an item by me that is at
    http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/reprint/courtney_2006_lecture.pdf

    Richard

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    Bush Bunny

    Dear Richard, Thank you very much for that, irrespective I believe UK is committed to still buying wind generators to be manufactured in Germany.

    Even Denmark’s electricity is mainly supplied by coal fired
    generation plants. Bar a small island that burns hay or something backed up by wind generators.

    But what about Industry. Neon lights in big cities. And if they are not reliable (if they break down, I have heard they are cheaper to replace than repair?) What’s the point as you suggest – Hydro and wave I have always thought are a better bet, but of course the objections are environmental damage, ie.
    Dams etc. And I believe, 4,000 wind generators cost $4 billion
    and one (only one????) nuclear reactor costs $5 billion.

    And we humans are worried about electricity costing more, just because we have been told that CO2 is mucking up the climate.

    Mind you the late Sir Mark Oliphant suggested that Australia would be a great place to develop solar energy with all our
    desert areas and long sunshine, and could one day supply all
    SE Asia too. I always thought that was a sensible idea, if they could find a way to store the energy during night.

    Thank you for that I haven’t read it in full, but I got the gist of it, but with so much now invested in CCT’s I think trillions could be lost if we back tracked, and that will influence government policies, I feel. Forget good sense and science. And the IPCC’s and Al Gore’s lies. And of course
    if we do or will enter an ice age, maybe you global Northerners might consider coming to Australia. We have lots of beaches.

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    Bush Bunny

    Joanne, I think Richard’s paper is important information that should be placed on file. And anyone interested in green energy should take it down, hope that is OK Richard? I note Al Gore has a company interested in Geo thermal, and SA Australia is also into this, as they have some hot spots there. I’m wary of Geo Thermal though, mucking around with the mantle etc. I know one green senator is interested in Geo thermal and solar thermal. Considering Wave generated electricity this would be fine for all our coastal cities, where most live anyway.

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    Richard S Courtney

    Bush Bunny:

    At #160 you ask me:

    And anyone interested in green energy should take it down, hope that is OK Richard?

    Of course it is OK.

    Richard

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    Dennis Avery sent me this from the U.S.
    “As I write, a strong wind is blowing across the Alleghany Mountains onto my house. It’s bringing an “Arctic Clipper” that will drop my temperatures this weekend to a frigid and unusual 6 degrees F. Why can’t I get some good from this chill wind—with a wind turbine to harvest the “free” energy?
    Out in Oregon, General Electric has just announced a big wind project: 338 turbines, rated at 845 MW. GE claims it will power for 235,000 homes, and is applying for the appropriate federal subsidies.
    Will the wind turbines power 235,000 homes? Don’t bet on it. My friend Donald Hertzmark—an energy economist—warns the power deliveries from this wind project are likely to average only 25 percent of its rated capacity. That would serve only 58,000 homes, not 235,000.
    But Hertzmark says even this is too high because the wind is highly variable. The Texas power grid’s experience is to rely on no more than 9 percent of the wind farm’s rated capacity. (emp.mine) That would reduce GE’s real subsidy claim to about 21,000 households.”

    But it gets worse.

    This January, Britain’s wind turbines (6 percent of total generating capacity after many billions of dollars invested) supplied virtually no power on most days. The wind tends not to blow when and where it’s already very cold.
    The stars of the British winter power demand were natural gas turbines, which are 34 percent of capacity and supplied 40 percent of the power during the winter wind lull. But Britain’s North Sea natural gas is running out; the only likely new source would be natural gas piped from Vladimir Putin’s Russia. Ouch. Or nuclear expansion.

    “Wind cannot be relied upon to provide firm generation at full capacity coincident with peak demand.” “Wind might be capable of contributing to the peak demand requirements at some times. However, this will rarely happen—and when it does, it will be for brief periods. For significant periods of time, no households will be served by the wind farms.”
    Nor have either of the worlds “wind leaders”—Denmark and Germany—decommissioned any fossil fuel plants. The fossil generators are kept in “spinning reserve”—burning fossil fuels to keep steam up to pressure—to keep the lights on in the schools, factories, and hospitals when the wind dies.

    Why build wind turbines at all? Well, wind and solar were the only energy sources the Greens would endorse, probably because they’re so expensive and erratic that there’s no danger of anybody getting hooked on cheap power again. Denmark was also selling wind turbines to other countries, so they had to be demonstrated at home. Now China is making cheaper turbines. Who will buy?…and the cost of the “free wind”? Projections are about 17 cents per kwh—far higher than other energy sources.

    With permission and appreciation to Dennis Avery of the Hudson Institute for part of this contribution to the issue. Bob Stewart

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    Bush bunny

    Now – Maybe the politicians, media and CCT investors are getting really worried, that people are asking why all this scam and who will pay for the adjustments, when CO2 isn’t the culprit, nor is human activity related to climate change. I will admit micro climates can form around large urban areas, damming rivers can cause problems, even allowing cattle to around creek beds can do damage to water flows and soil erosion. Cutting down rain forests etc. But if the secret is that scientist’s know we are heading into another ice age or mini ice age, the supply of electricity is paramount. Oil, Gas and Coal running out etc., nuclear seems to be a good option or is it? Growing crops is paramount. And the Northern Hemisphere will be hit harder than the Southern Hemisphere eventually. But it will only take a few years of low crop yield to make its mark on populations. The Christian
    or fundimentalists reaction – we are alarming God. They are lieing (Ah but why)because the Earth was only created 6,000 years ago! Fair Dinkum. That 2012 film due out on DVD – Well when I was at Uni the Mayan Calendar I thought ended in 2006 maybe they have adjusted it? The subtitle ‘And science is proving it?) I think Richard’s paper
    (2006) says a lot. I’ve forwarded it to my Federal MP, who thanked me for it. See Richard, you are getting well known in
    Oz?

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    Roy Hogue

    Richard S Courtney @158,

    Will you please come to California and explain their folly to the wind farm advocates. Better yet, jam it down their throats. Please!

    The madness here is out of control! We have an energy crisis, not for lack of energy but because we’re too stupid to use what we have available.

    Everyone seems to believe that airplanes fly with two left wings. If I had a kingdom I’d give it up for a good dose of common sense in Sacramento.

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    Richard S Courtney

    Roy Hogue:

    At #164 you say to me:

    Will you please come to California and explain their folly to the wind farm advocates. Better yet, jam it down their throats. Please!

    The madness here is out of control! We have an energy crisis, not for lack of energy but because we’re too stupid to use what we have available.

    Sadky, I lack the funds to visit the warmth of California.

    However, my item (from 2006) that I link at #158 agrees with what you say. It includes the following on its page 12.

    Richard

    But the problem has been realised in California although California uses much less wind power than 20% of its grid supply. Some 13,000 wind turbines produce more than one percent of California’s electricity. (This is about half as much electricity as is produced by one nuclear power plant.) The windfarms were constructed instead of thermal power stations (or instead of re-opening mothballed Californian nuclear power stations), and excess capacity in adjacent States was used to overcome the need for the windfarms to have backup. But California obtained a power crisis when that excess capacity was consumed by the adjacent States. Hence, California has inadequate spare capacity for the needed additional risk management associated with its small use of wind power. This has resulted in California needing to continuously apply scheduled voltage reductions (known as ‘brown outs’) around the State as an alternative method to manage the risk of power cuts from supply failures.

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    Roy Hogue

    Richard,

    Do you know of spaceship leaving for Mars any time soon? Sometimes I feel about that desperate.

    Didn’t think you could come but it was a nice dream.

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    MattB

    How is Krudd a play on nationality? I thought it was a reference to poo.

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    Baa Humbug

    From Andrew Bolts blog.

    “Through gritted teeth, climate scientists admit Wong tells porkies”.

    AUSTRALIA’S top climate scientist has contradicted Federal Government claims the drought in the Murray Darling Basin is due to global warming.

    Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change lead author, Prof Neville Nicholls, said the claim was not backed by science.

    “The current dry period (in the Murray Darling Basin) might still be just a fluke, or natural variability,” Prof Nicholls said.

    “We cannot confidently attribute it to global warming.”

    Yet Federal Climate Change and Water Minister Penny Wong has repeatedly claimed the basin’s drought is due to climate change.

    “Research shows that this severe, extended drought is clearly linked with global warming,” Senator Wong said in November last year.

    “There is nowhere that this challenge is more serious than the Murray Darling Basin.”

    But while rainfall has dropped to record lows, other scientists say the statistics don’t back Senator Wong’s claim.

    Prof Steven Sherwood, of the University of NSW Climate Change Research Centre, said the “sceptics here are (for once) technically correct, in that there is no proven link – yet – between Murray Darling drought and climate change”.

    Gaia just not playing ball with alarmists

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    Thanks Baa Humbug I did smile big time reading that – no gritted teeth here!

    Does anyone know what Kev is up to with his ETS? With his new HEALTH REFORM up front now maybe he’s going to drop it? HEY I can hope!

    One must ask also what ever happened to Kevin’s ETS? Is the health Care Reform “Down Under Style” his new fight for re-election? Does he finally understand the Australian people will no longer tolerate his ramblings and showmanship antics, Minister Wong’s totally incorrect statements, proving she does not even understand the science behind the THEORY of AGW?

    http://just-me-in-t.blogspot.com/2010/03/kevins-medical-monopoly.html

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    IPCC independent review – my foot!

    Environment and Climate ministers meeting in closed session in Bali last night insisted that an independent review should be carried out following the publicising of mistakes in its last report,(IPCC) and a row surrounding Dr Pachauri’s robust response to his critics. If his management is found to be at fault his position could become untenable.

    It is sad to say that there will be a very large number of people sceptical of any review conducted ‘independently’ in this affair.
    http://just-me-in-t.blogspot.com/2010/03/shredder.html

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    Bush bunny

    The IPCC review? Well if you all Google Dr Pachauri’s influence
    on TERI you will see of course he would favor the global warming
    scenario as there are billions of dollars invested in CCT investments, that look like going down the gurgler in value.

    It’s the biggest con out! However, there are big investers behind this Goldman Sachs (of which Malcolm Turnbull is the Australian director) who have invested in clean energy and also
    CCT’s. I don’t think they will be giving in without a fight!

    I loved Richards report on windmills, killing air born fauna, birds, bats, etc. Well – in Australia we have birds and parrots etc., who can’t manage cars sometimes, like Galahs. Tend to group on the side of the road, and then fly off when a car approaches and fly into it rather than away from it and get run over! (Ahh)That’s why they are called Galahs! An Australian vernacular for someone who hasn’t much common sense. For non Australians Galahs are pink and grey parrots, very noisy, but quite delightful.

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    compilation :-)

    someone who hasn’t much common sense – very noisy – tend to group together

    argggg reads like a description of some of our political factions, pink and grey? let me see now Kevin’s colours more than Tony’s me thinks.

    This IPCC review will end up another whitewash……. BOO HOO!

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    Did anyone see this?

    http://just-me-in-t.blogspot.com/2010/03/dear-doctor-al.html

    The University Chancellor, Jimmy Cheek, considers Al to be amongst the most accomplished and respected Tennesseans in history. He considers it fitting that Al should be honored by the flagship education institution of his home state.

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    Tel

    But while rainfall has dropped to record lows, other scientists say the statistics don’t back Senator Wong’s claim.

    Prof Steven Sherwood, of the University of NSW Climate Change Research Centre, said the “sceptics here are (for once) technically correct, in that there is no proven link – yet – between Murray Darling drought and climate change”.

    Table showing: LONG-TERM-MEDIAN / LONG-TERM-MEAN / RECENT-ACTUAL per month (in millimeters of rain, all figures from the BOM, as far as I know not “adjusted” like temperature figures)

    === BENDIGO, VICTORIA (foothills of mountain)

    Nov: 28.7 / 37.4 / 61.0
    Dec: 24.6 / 33.1 / 19.0
    Jan: 27.2 / 33.0 / 13.6
    Feb: 20.1 / 32.3 / 43.6

    === REDESDALE, VICTORIA

    Nov: 31.2 / 40.4 / 75.6
    Dec: 23.5 / 37.7 / 22.2
    Jan: 24.9 / 32.4 / 15.2
    Feb: 23.4 / 36.2 / 74.0

    == SWAN HILL, VICTORIA (on the river)

    Nov: 21.8 / 25.8 / 79.6
    Dec: 16.8 / 24.8 / 8.6
    Jan: 13.4 / 22.1 / 38.4
    Feb: 11.5 / 21.7 / 24.8

    == HAY, NSW (on the Western plain)

    Nov: 18.6 / 25.0 / 40.2
    Dec: 15.5 / 26.8 / 22.4
    Jan: 14.3 / 27.0 / 11.2
    Feb: 14.8 / 27.3 / 119.4

    == DENILIQUIN, NSW (edge of plain, near river)

    Nov: 20.2 / 29.6 / 55.8
    Dec: 20.1 / 29.4 / 9.6
    Jan: 17.2 / 28.1 / 23.0
    Feb: 16.0 / 27.5 / 59.4

    == MILDURA, VICTORIA (fruit farming heartland)

    Nov: 18.8 / 25.0 / 65.6
    Dec: 14.2 / 23.3 / 13.2
    Jan: 11.4 / 20.5 / 8.4
    Feb: 9.4 / 19.6 / 19.6

    Pick some towns yourself… its been wet out there. How much more rain is it going to take before reporters pay attention? The rainfall record lows is a complete crock. Many months have been double or three times the average, and this is in the Southeast corner which was supposedly “another dreadful dry season”.

    As for the Darling River, it flows South from Queensland and they have had huge record rainfalls in Queensland, including flooding. If there’s no water in the Darling, the problem certainly is NOT lack of rainfall.

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    Bush bunny

    Yes Tel, the rainfall around St.George has created havoc in that town – and there is now talk this will result in more water flowing into the Murray Darling river. Mind you, I always
    thought that irrigation for cotton in the South Queensland was
    resulting in a shortage of water in MD for NSW and SA?

    The Queenslanders are sick of all the rain, now.

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    Tel

    Yes I agree there are resource distribution issues — the same drop of water cannot be used by both QLD growing cotton and NSW, VIC growing fruit. The most effective use of that water depends on the relative price of cotton vs fruit. However, the water management is a human issue that humans can figure out, climate is another issue again.

    It totally annoys me when people sit and listen to the TV news telling them that there is a drought one minute and a flood the next and they don’t even connect the two. Then blame anything you like on Climate Change because it’s easier than thinking. How many people are talking about the dreadful drought that is crippling Australian agriculture? The biggest problem we have with our wheat is figuring out where to dump the stuff into an already glutted international market. Benchmark wheat price is $310 per tonne, in comparison dry pre-mix cement costs you $250 per tonne, so food it only a fraction more expensive than rocks in Australia.

    Northern hemisphere has also had good wheat harvests and the Aussie dollar is high so I hope all Australians want to drink plenty of beer and eat plenty of bread with Vegemite this year.

    And yes there are hungry poor people who will get none of this, despite the massive food availability but please don’t anyone blame the climate for that.

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    The continuous and relentless increase of population will be a problem worth far more serious contemplation of the the impact. More than 2 billion extra souls over the next 40 years. The F.A.O says 2.3 and the U.N. 2.9 billion, an increase of about one third.

    It may not be significant in the Western World but it certainly is a difference in the Third World. Population to our North in Greater S.E.Asia is increasing at the rate of 20 million every 3 months, (F.A.O. figures a year ago) Not only will they breathe oxygen provided by the existing vegetation from the moment they are born, but they will require some form of shelter that consumes part of what is left, plus clean water.food and above all…energy. Russia is to build 12 new Stage 4 nuclear power plants in India.

    As lifestyle of the wealthy nations is beamed to a TV in the open window hutch of the grass hut to the dozens seated on the ground , the wealth displayed by the media is envied to the extent that hitherto a life of stoop labour in the paddy is now not acceptable – the viewer is conditioned for the better life of “Big Max,TV’s, cars and electric toothbrushes”.

    Therein will lie the problem of consumption of the Earth’s resources already being drained in ever larger amounts from above and below ground. The search continues to supply the raw materials for “things” and our beef exports have passed the million tonnes. So far there are a few untouched territories, forests and marginal tundra still apparently available but for how much longer if the World population will increase by one third? The U.N. has warned of food riots and a modern day exodus from despot regimes of the Middle East and the tribal regimes of Africa

    Will the pressure of another 2 billion souls in such a short period of time allow the natural world to provide and then sustain? or will it be the scientists and farmers finding ways and means to do so on land that is already farmed?

    It is such a simple observation that the vegetation provides the oxygen for life while consuming the CO2 in the process. Global warming? Then who or what will explain the 50 or so vessels including the icebreakers caught in the freeze of the Baltic Sea at present? Or the warming consequence of the bushfires that discharge huge tonnages of C back into the atmosphere in a few hours that have taken a lifetime to absorb? A computer model to shut down industry in Australia? What about the rest of the World?

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    Hey there!
    My band recently made our very own full song!!!

    Please have a look, we’ve learnt a lot from your blog! :)
    xxx

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    I started out cigs when I was 14 years old. It appears to be the most detrimental wrong move I’ve made. Today I am 45 years old and I have lung cancer. While attempting to quit smoking, I saw the ecig and i intend to try it out. With some luck, it will eventually help me with this crappy addiction.

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