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Copenhagen: blizzards, walk-outs, frustration – good news

Disaster averted

There has been no breakthrough at Copenhagen.

Barak Obama has spoken, and the crowd was disappointed. He was visibly angry.

China and India have walked out. The West did not offer enough.

The departure of Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was a major snub for the Western congregation, and guarantees that nothing binding or significant will arise out of Copenhagen. The walkout was exactly what they vowed to do in to the strategic plan they announced a few weeks ago.

The draft treaty has become the Copenhagen Accord, and deadlines have been dropped or postponed.

COP-15 has been roundly described as a failure of organisation, where 45,000 delegates were allowed to register for a venue with a capacity of  just 15,000 people. Even sympathetic people were forced to wait hours in sub zero temperatures, and began to wonder if this organization was seriously capable of setting up a new world government.

But the real problem was that the developed nations can’t get support from within their own democracies for the massive cuts supposedly needed for the deal.

“Time and time again we have seen negotiators admitting in the middle of talks that they simply don’t have a mandate from their government to make progress on an issue, so their hands have been tied,” said Trish Harrup, an Australian observer of the talks for Greenpeace.
[The Australian]

For that, we can thank democracy itself and common sense, with some help from climategate.

As Lord Monckton puts it:

“Never in the field of human politics has so little been achieved at so much cost to so many for so little benefit to so few.”

[SPPI Blog]

Meanwhile The Al Gore effect has hit Copenhagen in the bluntest of ironies. Temperatures got down to minus 4, the city has been covered with a layer of snow 10 centimeters (4 inches) thick, and people are talking about the first white Christmas there in 14 years.

The Copenhagen Post declared: “Bitter cold and steady snowfall has paralyzed the country’s roads and public transport since yesterday, and the icy cold weather is expected to get even worse over the next couple days.”

It’s almost enough to make me believe there is a God.

UPDATE 1: Ironies pile on ironies.

The Al Gore effect blizzards that currently rage were predicted using solar activity a month ago and almost to the day by Piers Corbyn. They said then that Dec 14-16/17 would be particularly snowy with biting cold winds in the region. See the press release from WeatherAction. Their Solar Weather Technique depends on solar-particle and magnetic effects and has nothing to do with CO2. (Thanks Mohib :-) )

So the tribal gurus of warming are being buried under snow that was predicted by solar long range forecasters a month ago.

UPDATE 2: Last Ditch Attempt to Revive Talks
Obama and Wen held talks today and achieved little. (So Wen’s walkout may have been a negotiating ploy?) But they will meet again this afternoon. These are the two big giants in the room. If they both moved, then things might take off. But since Obama offered little in his formal speech, it’s not clear he can offer Wen a lot more behind the scenes. But who knows?

Wen also met with Singh (India) today and announced they are wary of a deal. However, there is also talk of a spillover into Saturday (on the last line of that page).

Remember, trillions of dollars is resting on this. Very big strings are being pulled... it’s not over yet.

UPDATE 3

Myron Ebell reports that there are a lot of very put-out greenies in Copenhagen, and that there is a fissure developing between the bureaucrats and their grass roots supporters. [Fox]

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106 comments to Copenhagen: blizzards, walk-outs, frustration – good news

  • #
    Ed Moran

    We now have time to spread the word before Man’s great achievement (wealth-creating industrial democratic society) is damaged by the looney coallition.

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  • #

    If you are what you do, then God is an Iron. What delicious irony.

    I am more inclined to think the outcome of Copenhagen is simply the consequence of the participants being at war with reality. Their ultimate losing the war was certain. I just didn’t expect the loss to be so great so soon. They HAVE over reached. They believed their own propaganda. Wishes, opinions, assertions of consensus, and dictates were supposed to create reality. Thankfully, reality is as uncooperative as it always has been.

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    Boudu

    Well I wouldn’t go so far as to become an all out theist but I may start to believe in fairytales. It is Copenhagen after all.

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    J.Hansford

    This is not over until the Rudd Labor Government has been defeated and the ministers who continue with the idea of taxing Australians for carbon dioxide are disgraced.

    Rudd’s Great Green Tax on Everything has been shown up for the scam that it was…. Australia would have been committed to crippling economic circumstances had Rudd’s CPRS/ETS passed into law, whilst the rest of the world signed nothing… What a farce that would have been.

    Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant.

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  • #
    Charles. U. Farley

    The whole story of how the gullible citizens of the world have been cynically manipulated by a few high profile liars needs to be comprehensively exposed now that some breathing space has been made.

    Then they should all be strung up for what theyve done.

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  • #

    I can’t find confirmation that India and China bolted…??? Indeed, it looks like the talks are being extended.

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  • #

    Perhaps the talks have been extended to allow time to clear the runways in Copenhagen before the 140 private jets can leave.

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  • #
    Steve Schapel

    If the conference closes with no agreement, we can be happy about that simple fact. Rational argument on this issue is on the rise within societies, and public opinion continues to move against the alarmists. The more time wse have for this process to continue, the better… I hope.

    But we should also note very carefully that the reasons for the failure to reach accord are based on arguments about money, power, who owes whom, and who hates whom. As far as I know, all of the parties at the level of national government are still starting from the baseline assumptions of CAGW alarmism, and none of them seem to offer any hint that they doubt the dogma, nor do we see any calls at this level for a re-evaluation of the facts.

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  • #
    Roy Hogue

    So Obama was visibly angry? Good! He’s our Kool-Aid-Drinker-in-Chief and needs some comeuppance!

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    rammey

    All that Gore got done was to make more people mad at each other. World Peace has been given a blow by the climate alarmists.

    Redo of Analyses Required

    The trickery used on global temperatures by Mann and Jones has been known about for some time and Climategate only served to confirm what was already known by enlightened scientists.

    This complete from the bottom up re-analyses should follow the basic principles of the scientific method and be conducted by scientists of the highest caliber of unquestioned ethics. The emphasis should be on using raw un-adjusted empirical data, re-verified as trustworthy, and fully published for all to review. Without full transparency, credibility will not be re-established. The highest priority should be given to the empirical methods rather than unproven, untrustworthy computer models. The use of raw data, evidence, logic and common sense is required. Ignoring the concept of cause and effect and trying to rely on correlation without proof of causation will only result in further degradation of credibility. A balanced blue-ribbon un-biased scientific committee is required to oversee the re-analyses effort.

    I would suggest that it will not be in the best interests to continue to ignore the clear violation of public trust tha NASA and the EPA are currently supporting.

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  • #
    Marlene Anderson

    For reasons other than AGW it’s been a frustrating day on the construction site here in British Columbia Canada. But the mood changed for everyone when I shared the good news from Joanna’s post. Dare we hope that a glimmer of sanity shows itself in the distance? Perhaps not unless ordinary citizens revolt and hold their governments accountable to good science.

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    [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by good and W. Earl Allen, Dwon Reynolds. Dwon Reynolds said: RT @GoodNewsToday: Copenhagen: Blizzards, walk-outs, frustration – Good News « JoNova http://bit.ly/6FaZiF [...]

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    Waterman

    I think this blog is ending in a hostile attitude on the need to change, because we are facing global warming, not particularly due CO2, and a peak oil very nearby in 2105-2020.
    You call the news from Copenhagen good news, I think it is very sad to miss the change for a transition in all sort of area’s.
    Talking and calculating how wrong some scientist are doesn’t bring us any further.

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  • #
    Phillip Bratby

    Yet again Piers Corbyn with his simple physics has beaten the Met Office’s super computers and sophisticated models. He forecasts weeks to months in advance. At best the Met Office can only forecast a few days in advance. A few inches of snow in east of England has brought large parts of the country to a standstill with nobody really prepared because yet again the Met Office told us it was going to be another mild winter; and it’s not even Christmas yet.

    Time to throw more logs on the fire.

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  • #

    UPDATE:
    Obama and Wen held talks today and achieved little. (So Wen’s walkout may have been a negotiating ploy?) But they will meet again this afternoon. These are the two big giants in the room. If they both moved, then things might take off. But since Obama offered little in his formal speech, it’s not clear he can offer Wen a lot more behind the scenes. But who knows?

    Wen also met with Singh (India) today and announced they are wary of a deal. However, there is also talk of a spillover into Saturday (on the last line of that page).

    Thanks Springer.
    It looks like things will drag on a bit longer yet.

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  • #
    Henry chance

    Waterman:
    December 19th, 2009 at 5:33 am
    I think this blog is ending in a hostile attitude on the need to change, because we are facing global warming, not particularly due CO2, and a peak oil very nearby in 2105-2020.

    You do not know of what you speak. I do. I was in a private meeting with top exec at Exxon Mobil in 1981. We discussed peak oil in their internatial research unit. The year they said we would run out was 1992. I am not calling out Mobil for example as dishonest. The state ment was, “unless we add reserves” we are out of oil. Just in the past year, I can list tremendous finds for reserves. Yes we are finding oil. We haven’t even run out of oil that can be produced for 8 dollars a barrel. At 140 american dollars a barrel, there is an incredible amount of oil we know about. We can do like south Africa and make gas out of coal. Actually in Russia they are finding oil is actually being produced underground and formerly exhausted pools are being refilled.
    We have not reached peak oil.

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    Hans-Heinrich Willberg

    Dear Joanne, I am sure they will negotiate as long as they find an agreement! But nothing substantial! The mainstream media tommorow will tell the world, that the Leaders saved the planet and indeed, if you look to the pictures of snowfall in Copenhagen and temperatures below minus, they were extremely successful in such a short time. Only with speaches they drowned temperature below average and stopped global warming!

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  • #
    Henry chance

    Joanne Nova:
    December 19th, 2009 at 5:39 am
    UPDATE:
    Obama and Wen held talks today and achieved little. (So Wen’s walkout may have been a negotiating ploy?) But they will meet again this afternoon. These are the two big giants in the room. If they both moved, then things might take off. But since Obama offered little in his formal speech, it’s not clear he can offer Wen a lot more behind the scenes. But who knows?

    Bingo. We have a winner. Negotiating with the Chinese is very different than other Asians. These are also communists. Transparency and accountability and communism do not connect. They push all their data on becoming green and we believe it.
    They also have a cold northern city where they shut of coal for home heating and let them use corn stalks. That is a bad ag/soil farming practice. But they can brag about going coal free. At the edge of town they are building a coal fired electric enery plant. People will freeze but they have ordered no coal burning for cooking or heating.

    http://chinadigitaltimes.net/china/handan/

    Obama is in a democracy. We do not allow Presidents to sign treaties without 2/3rds approval of our congress.

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    Mark Stevens

    Hans christian anderson couldn`t have given us such a happy ending. the elephant in the roomis dead, and it`s rotting carcass is buzzing with flys. fill the doggy bags and hand em out to the protagonists! screw you,kruddy, wrong and your sycophantic cronies. a fair suck on the sour sauce bottle is yours. I pity the cabin crew escorting you home! ROFLMAO! woohoo!!!!

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  • #
    Lou Skannen

    Waterman,

    As (if/when) fossil fuel supplies near depletion, why on earth would we believe a bunch of politicians and bureaucrats would manage the transition better than the invisible hand of the free market? These folks can’t even get out of their own way.

    Lou

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    [...] Copenhagen: Blizzards, walk-outs, frustration [...]

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    Charles. U. Farley

    The facts are that these so called “leaders” are not interested in the planets welfare. Not one iota.
    Theyre interested in themselves, their own personal power.
    The fools currently running around in Gropenhagen all doing the foot soldiering for these clowns simply dont get it: Youre being used.
    Sadly for some of them theyre realising far too late ( slow learners) what the real game here is about its not about the planet either.
    And theyre helping to make it happen.

    On a slightly different slant, Robert Mugabe gets applause as does Hugo Chavez from the left leaning capitalist leaders.
    What an absolute disgrace to civilisation.

    I feel a Berlusconi moment coming on……

    00

  • #
    RobinAtl

    Phew! Well we bought some more time to really get the Climategate investigations going. My hope is that those in the US who have been involved, including James Hansen, be brought up on criminal charges. That in my opinion will only go a short way toward repairing the public trust in the credibility of science and scientists.

    As a US Taxpayer, I would be happy to give public funds to people like Joanne, David Evans, Lord Monckton, because we know we can trust them to tell us the truth and hold dishonest people accountable. My regret is that it does not appear we have enough truth seekers in our Justice department which will most likely head the REAL investigations.

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    Gregoryno6

    Barak Obama has spoken, and the crowd was disappointed.

    That’s putting it mildly. I heard a piece of his great oration: the audience responded with either reluctance or indifference. Depending, I suppose, on whether they were provoked into clapping by big men with sticks or guilty consciences.
    At any rate it sounded as if he was addressing a massive crowd of about 22.
    So much for Barack saving the day… http://sendables.jibjab.com/originals/hes_barack_obama

    00

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    Roy Hogue

    Obama is in a democracy. We do not allow Presidents to sign treaties without 2/3rds approval of our congress.

    Henry Chance,

    Obama can sign all the treaties he wants to. The correct statement is that they do not go into force until ratified by a 2/3 majority of the Senate. Let him sign anything he wants. (2/3)x(100 senators) = 66 votes if you don’t round, 67 if you do. Either way I can’t believe there are that many yes votes in the Senate.

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    co2isnotevil

    Another little piece of irony is that those returning from the summit to the East Coast USA will return to record blizzard conditions. DC is expecting up to 2 feet of snow over the next day or so.

    It’s amazing how steadfast Obama is on this. Well, I guess in the end he can always claim that it’s complicated for him to understand and he just assumed he was getting accurate information from his scientific advisers (i.e. Holdren, Hansen, Chu, …). I kind of doubt he would freely admit that what he liked the most about it was the wealth redistribution aspects.

    00

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    co2isnotevil,

    I think Obama is a true believer. But of course if it advances the rest of his agenda then so much the better.

    00

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    billyquiz

    I doubt very much if all these world leaders will allow themselves to walk away empty handed (more’s the pity). They’ll stitch something up (me and you I expect) at the last minute and come out celebrating an historic agreement.

    Whether that agreement gets implemented depends very much on what us skeptics do after Copenhagen.

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    Niles

    Not unlike the Liberal Democrats pushing a Heathcare Reform bill in the US, the Socialists-Marxist Greenies realize that time is of the essence. There is a delay ramp during which an increasing number of everyday citizens begin to pay attention to, and understand, the consequences of such ill-considered legislation and the Greenies know that time is working against them.

    Their desperation is showing as a politician like Sen.Landrieu(LA) is bought off with $300 million (aka “Louisiana Purchase”) for her vote on healthcare and now Hillary and Obama will try and spend $30 billion to China and other developing nations on this AGW hoax further adding to our children’s inherited liability.

    Whenever a liberal tries to sell you anything with the word “justice” attached (ie-environmental justice) – RUN THE OTHER WAY!!!!!

    00

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    Rereke Whaakaro

    Rammey: # 10

    “The highest priority should be given to the empirical methods rather than unproven, untrustworthy computer models”

    Empirical methods are observation and experimentation.

    We can observe weather patterns in the past, and look for potential cause and effect relationships. Based on these relationships, we can sometimes make predictions of what might happen in the future, but only in cases involving one or two variables. Finding the right “one or two variables” is a long and arduous process, and it is one of experimentation. The experiments, in this case are the computer models.

    The problem arises when your model does not produce the expected results. The usual process is to look at the math, find out where it differs from reality, change the model so it does produce the expected results for the given input data, and then go around the loop again.

    Of course, under political (and perhaps financial) pressure to produce a “truth”, within a given timeframe, it becomes easier to change the input data than to change the computer model. Fraudulent? Yes, but pragmatic.

    In my opinion, Piers Corbyn, at WeatherAction has shown empirically that the “one or two” variables are more to do with solar flux and cloud formation than with CO2.

    We will see if anything comes from that.

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    Roy Hogue

    Waterman,

    Add my signature to the statement of Lou Skannen.

    Assuming that you’re right, it’s of no use to go to bed with the dishonest acolytes tending the alter of AGW who now blather away in Jokenhagen.

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  • #

    What happened to Barack’s handler’s? Politicians may be extremely unethical but they are not stupid. The president has got to know that the wheels are falling off of the global warming scam wagon faster than his approval ratings are sinking. When he is running for reelection they will be playing his speech on TV as often as they will his comment that “electricity prices would necessarily have to skyrocket.” Barack Obama is African for one termer. The key to the scandal in the U.S. is that the Pennsylvania State Congress is controlled by Republicans. They are already putting the pressure on Penn State to expose Mann or lose their funding. Unfortunately in life, it almost always gets down to the money. Some people say that money is not the most important thing. Wow! I would hate to see what comes in second! Mikey Mann has already thrown Phil Jones under the bus, does anyone think he isn’t going to “roll over”? This is the same guy who taught Jones how to do the “trick” to hide the decline. I am waiting to see how they explain how that Jimbo Hansen’s data matches almost exactly the CRU’s fraudulent data (according to Phil Jones Phil Jones own email)! We know that the Australian and New Zealand data has been massaged to show an artificial increase. Now, the Russians are accusing the CRU of altering the Russian data to show an artificial increase in temperatures. I am surprised that their criminal prowess is as bad as their intellectual dishonesty. Obama had one white parent and one African parent yet he is neither black or white, he is green. he claims to have gotten his start in politics with the help of the league of conservation voters and the sierra club. Will climategate be Barack’s watergate? This is starting to look like a political sequel to Pulp Fiction!

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  • #
    Waterman

    I live in a country where we own Shell, have a lot lot of natural gas but still have the opinion we have to change because we use in about 200 years all the fossil energy which have been built up in million and million years We have in the World for 50 years Phosphorous etc etc.
    What Ii stand for is to see on Urgenda.nl (also in English). I am convinced that hanging on old conservative methods and ways of live doesn’t lead us into the good direction. We have had here sea water levels of 60 m higher than the existing levels. For my children and grandchildren I don’t like that happening again.
    Please do not pay to much attention to fraud that some scientist seems to have made.

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  • #
    billyquiz

    Read, on EuReferendum, about the “carbon mafia” which is spending so-called “green funds” on such delightful, carbon-busting projects as one of the largest coal-fired power stations in the world.

    http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2009/12/controlling-money.html

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    Splantyboy

    No offense Waterman but…

    Whether or not we quit using oil now or 100 years from now is not going to make a difference on sea levels. Since we are now pretty certain that increased CO2 output, whether man-made or natural (97% of it is natual by the way) will NOT cause warming. I am afraid that, all things being equal, the Dutch will have to prepare for sea level rise. Just as our ancestors had to abandon the Bering land bridge or the land area that is now part of the black sea. But I wouldn’t worry too much about it since the rise will take several lifetimes to even notice.

    Remember, since we began this inter-glacial period in which we now live, ocean levels have risen over 600FT (200M)! Again, all things being equal to the last inter-glacial, we should see another 20-25FT (6-8M)of sea rise over the next few thousand years before we enter another glaciation. But I can bet you that Amsterdam will be a very different place by then anyhoo.

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    Roy Hogue

    Nonbinding agreement — just doublespeak for no one wants to follow through except Obama.

    Democrats will lose seats in the House of Representatives and the Senate next year. Then even if the current Senate does manage to ratify this monster, just try to get it implemented.

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    Matty

    Looks like Rudd comes home damaged, Penny bewildered, Lenore Taylor broken, and maybe doubts about the ets going back to parliament at all. The manner this has fallen down is as crushing as it was unexpected to the gravy train riders. Political landscapes can evaporate suddenly and there are plenty of stunned journalists in Aust at the moment. It’s a case of what do we write? I reckon the whole idea of a binding agreement is stuck on the canvas and the next six months will be their worst by far.

    It would appear that the more serious the conference got, the less agreeable the attendees were. To the UN – Penny Wong – Tim Flannery etc, did they forget they entered politics?

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    Roy Hogue

    Having said that, we still can’t afford to give up the fight.

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    Waterman

    Splantyboy,

    Of course you are right about the sealevels and that it will takes a while before it rises to the level we can’t manage anymore, we faced already 100 cm in the last 300 years. Slow rising we can handle, no problem; we have the plans already made.
    So we are not so much interested in the CO2, which, you are right, are 95-95% natural. Personally i believe that the sun is overproducing a little. The sun supplies in 1 hours the amount of energy that in total WW use in one year. So a few moment extra could make a difference.
    But closing your eyes for de peak oil in say 20 years is a little looking the other way without a view, I don’t mention you, but a lot of people denying the CO2 levels, thinking that oil will last for ever. I consider that as narrow faced people.

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    Mark

    Anybody here wondering like me what the reaction of their leaders would be if you asked them to sign over all the cheques in their personal book and asked them to “trust me on this”.

    Socialists can afford to be generous with other people’s money. They invariably tend to be mean spirited bastards when it comes to their own.

    To all inhabitants of Oz: We need to sharpen up our keyboards again and deluge Kev with emails when he (finally) gets home. Yeah, I know, many of us wish he’d stay away on his own dollar.

    He should be left under no illusion that we will not take responsibility for any undertakings he might have given. The heat needs to be kept at Tony Abbott’s feet as well to enure he doesn’t do that most favoured dive of a politician – the back-flip.

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  • #
    Waterman

    Splantyboy,

    Some more,

    world population living in Delta’s

    23% in 2005

    50% in 2050

    There are about 25 area’s as the Dutch Delta all over the world. For your interest 70% of the Netherlands is under sea level. In the west near the North Sea, which was dry some 50.000 years, some parts are 6.50 below and subsiding every year, we expect in 2050 50 cm. So it is going both sides.
    What do you think of Bangladesh and San francisco Bay area ( – 9,50 m for some parts)
    This all is beyond the discussion about mr Jones, Briffa and others.

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  • #
    Charles Higley

    The planet appears to be in the process of clearly disconnecting CO2 from global temperatures, with the PDO and NAO and solar cycle 24 all voting for cooling. Thus, reviewing the state of the globe 6 years from now should be interesting.

    What Copenhagen has done, and very effectively so, is to show that the 3rd world countries view global warming as a great excuse to extract money from everybody else. There are now two very clear groups with huge differences: those who give and those who avidly take and always want more – they should actually cobble up problems to demand more and more and more.

    The extreme 3rd world’s response to being left out or ignored by the countries who are supposed to be ponying up all of this money—they seem to think the developed countries have no say here—shows how incredibly entitled they feel. It is well within human behavior for small country government leaders to see this source of “moral” funding as a great retirement plan, a plan which, if they could bring it home, would guarantee their longevity in their respective governments.

    It should be interesting in another way. As the developed countries inherently do not want to give away money (a political liability at home), their new goal will be to detect the reversal of global warming and, thus, contend that future funding should be less or none. As cooling is the current reality, it should not be difficult to show that further funding is not necessary.

    Maybe we can re-task the IPCC to show the effectiveness of emission programs – their heads should explode over the conundrum of showing programs are effective and realizing that success would mean the end of their existence.

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    Tel

    But closing your eyes for de peak oil in say 20 years is a little looking the other way without a view, I don’t mention you, but a lot of people denying the CO2 levels, thinking that oil will last for ever. I consider that as narrow faced people.

    A lot of people make the link between fossil fuel resources and the effect of CO2 causing AGW. There is absolutely no scientific basis for this link, how could the solar radiation have any knowledge about the size of fuel reserves remaining in the ground?

    I can see a lot of politically expedient reasons for this to be a convenient link… after all, if fuel resources are running out then it is in my best interests to attempt to convince everyone else to stop consuming the dwindling resource.

    This provides a very good explanation for the behaviour of conference delegates who fly around in private jets while lecturing people on the dangers of CO2. None of them really believe in AGW, it is convenient propaganda to achieve a political purpose and nothing more.

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    John Lish

    If you listened to Obama’s press conference, it was basically an admission to allow India and China to continue on a business as usual path. A mitigation policy in these cases is about limiting the amount of additional emissions produced from economic growth.

    The Chinese have already been quite sneaky in calculating emissions based on future economic growth with production of energy being static to today’s technologies then comparing it to a real business as usual model which includes in its assumptions advances in technology/energy efficiency etc. They then claimed that the real business as usual model is as a result of mitigation policies.

    Obama also basically admitted they’ll be no binding agreement in 2010 either and restated his administration’s target for a 4% reduction in emissions by 2020 based on 1990 levels. No wonder the greenies are hoping mad…

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    Tel

    The planet appears to be in the process of clearly disconnecting CO2 from global temperatures, with the PDO and NAO and solar cycle 24 all voting for cooling. Thus, reviewing the state of the globe 6 years from now should be interesting.

    To be reasonably fair, you would need to review after at least two whole sunspot cycles so that you include the highest and lowest part of the cycle. Right now we are in one of the lowest and longest sunspot cycles but politics moves a whole lot faster than climate does!

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    MikeO

    I love the blizzards Pelosi has had to dash home before airports are frozen I guess.
    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/12/18/dc-snowstorm-chills-pelosis-global-warming-trip/

    With any luck KRudd and Wrong will be iced in and have to delay their flight home.

    Also you have to love this from the UK Telegraph:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/100020279/copenhagen-climate-summit-most-important-paper-in-the-world-is-a-glorified-un-press-release/
    “This week has been truly historic. It has marked the beginning of the landslide that is collapsing the whole AGW imposture. The pseudo-science of global warming is a global laughing stock and Copenhagen is a farce. In the warmist camp the Main Man is a railway engineer with huge investments in the carbon industry. That says it all. The world’s boiler being heroically damped down by the Fat Controller. Al Gore, occupant of the only private house that can be seen from space, so huge is its energy consumption, wanted to charge punters $1,200 to be photographed with him at Copenhagen. There is a man who is really worried about the planet’s future.”

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    Matty

    RE: #43 Charles Higley,

    “their new goal will be to detect the reversal of global warming and, thus, contend that future funding should be less or none”

    I agree. I’m sure there are countries who have resented the moral bullying and condescention but needed a way out, and I see the Saudi’s are rejecting a climategate investigation by CRU or IPCC, insisting it must be transparent. Half these countries don’t even believe in a free market let alone a market based solution. They have gamed it for years in the hope of some free cash and didn’t they turn quick when it wasn’t quite forthcoming. I think it’s all down hill from here. Copenhagen = shallow insincerity, I think the charade is busted.

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    Charles Higley

    Tel,

    The PDO has a 25-35 year down phase, the NAO may augment its strength, and solar cycle 24 being what it is (Dalton Minimum potential), there appears to be cooling, very, for 2-3 decades. That will be a good disconnect, particularly as CO2 might very well begin to decline as the oceans cool, even before the human world manages to do anything detectable to decrease emissions.

    There is really nothing to review once one accepts that real CO2 chemical data shows that CO2 was much higher than now as recently as the 1940s and during two periods in the 1800s. As global temperature changes always precede CO2 changes, there is no reason to suddenly believe that natural laws are suspended just because we emit the CO2 and not all that much, to be realistic (it has a 5,.4 year half-life in the atmosphere).

    As Waterman alludes to, we should always think about husbanding our resources for the future. That does not mean Draconian changes NOW. We will always need our carbon resources for plastics and pharmaceuticals and, given healthy technological progress, we will move away from many carbon fuels for the simple reason that we do not want to give foreigners so much of our money or to be dependent on them.

    We have vastly improved, safer and more efficient nuclear power systems, which we should use – so efficient that it would be useful to recycle our spent fuel to extract the other 50% of the energy from it. The product would be useful for other things.

    We are working on much more efficient solar cells and higher energy density batteries (for cars). But, we need to realize that wind and solar will always be forms of localized and intermittent energy and never be able to adequately support industry. They will indeed make individual homes better in many ways and people will do make these improvements anyhow, because that is what we do. Mandating or forcing changes by creating a false crisis and then making energy super-expensive is not the way to achieve this.

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    mighk sky

    Women in “general” are naturally in tune with the earth & tend to have a greener side, therefore will let the boys fight it out. They already know what the outcome will be.

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    BJM

    Now that ‘Hoaxenhagen’ has finished and all the 114 ‘delegates’ have had their taxpayer funded jaunt, would it be possible to – a) have an election now and get rid of Rudd (he can have his much coveted job on the UN) and these UN loving ideologues and – b) have a proper review of Australia’s actual UN treaty commitments. I know neither will happen, but it is Christmas. Happy Holidays to all.

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    Black Duck

    I notice our sycophant of the year Tim Flannery has stated on the ABC that Copenhagen was a great success and quote “I think that our Prime Minister has played an outstanding role,” he said. Enough to make a grown man cry!

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    Joanne…

    You might find this interesting, on the National Post’s website, by Terence Corcoran…

    A 2,000-page epic of science and skepticism — Part 1

    Part 2 to follow on Monday.

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    @waterman

    I own a small oil company in california. My company specializes in servicing and repairing oil and gas wells for other oil companies and acquiring oil and gas well production. Throughout the history of oil the estimated proven reserves, proven undeveloped reserves and unproven undeveloped reserves have been constantly adjusted and always upward. We were told by the Club of Rome, Paul Ehrlich and other disciples of Malthus that we would not have enough food, water, oil, etc. They have all been proven wrong. Peak oil? Peak oil is almost a certainty unless the Russians are right about oil being naturally created on an ongoing basis. The “consensus” (I hate that word) is that oil was created primarily during two extinction events, the permian triassic mass extinction 254 mya being primarily responsible for the majority of todays oil deposits. Oil is converted sunlight. When the oceans became anoxiated the dying plankton sank to the bottom of the ocean or sea, was covered by dirt and over time were converted into oil under intense pressure. When will peak oil occur? It could be in twenty years from now or longer. There have been several advancements in the conversion of coal into oil since Nazi Germany utilized the Fischer Trope method. By converting coal to oil we can probably go 300 years without running out of oil. Then there is geopolitical peak oil. That occurs when countries are unstable, wars disrupt supplies or some idiot green says that CO2 is anything but plant food. There is less oil available to the market then there was when oil was over $140 per barrel. As the world economy improves demand will rise and prices will almost certainly increase. That will probably be the end of the green religion as we know it. Cheap base load energy is necessary for modern society to exist. Well over a billion people do not have electricity or running water. Those responsible for impeding development in the poorest parts of the world have killed more people than Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined. They should stand trial for crimes against humanity and publicly executed.

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    What you all forget (going on about Copenhagen being covered in snow), is that the message for years was GLOBAL WARMING. This has now changed to CLIMATE CHANGE.

    See the thing about climate change is… you can make it into anything you want. So… some place gets hotter. Must be CLIMATE CHANGE. Some place gets colder. Ooooh CLIMATE CHANGE. Some place has no change in weather. Oh oh. thats CLIMATE CHANGE as well.

    It’s the ultimate self-fulfilling prophesy: a prediction of terrible things happening unless we change our wicked ways. But the terrible things… oh well, TRUST US – they will be TERRIBLE.

    You will now find this being used. Every time you point out a cooler year / month / location / event – thats Climate Change. The point, say the believers, is that its CHANGE. Local effects dont count. Only the global effect.

    So don’t get too complacent – they have an answer for you every time.

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    Matty

    This from the Guardian UK. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/18/copenhagen-deal

    John Sauven, executive director of Greenpeace UK, said: “The city of Copenhagen is a crime scene tonight, with the guilty men and women fleeing to the airport. Ed Miliband [UK climate change secretary] is among the very few that come out of this summit with any credit. It is now evident that beating global warming will require a radically different model of politics than the one on display here in Copenhagen.”

    A new model of politics??? More information please.

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    Matty

    Where the hell is Al Gore?

    As the saying goes – victory has a thousand uncles, but defeat is an orphan.

    He might be on the phone trying to reassure his banking buddies

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    Steve

    The Green Code

    switch(mannMadeDisaster)
    {
    "AGW": Panic();
    "Ocean Acidification": Panic();
    "Peak Oil": Panic();
    "default": Panic();
    }

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    ThomasJ

    Check this out:

    http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/H/a/2/alfred-e-obama-mad.jpg

    Tells it all – truth finally prevailed… :)

    Brgds/TJ

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    Rereke Whaakaro

    John Lish: #45

    Do not believe any statistics that come out of China.

    At every level of the Chinese Communist Party administration, “managers” are required to meet certain targets or loose their jobs.

    The bureaucracy is so large that there are few meaningful checks and balances, so “managers” tend to report numbers that the next level wants to hear. Everybody knows it happens, but nobody really cares, because everybody is being successful.

    Introduce external targets (for International reporting of carbon emissions, for example), and it suddenly gets more difficult to reconcile the internal with the external measurements – nobody wants that.

    So the Chinese position was obvious from the start of these talks – they want to be part of the discussion, but not part of the solution unless they can make money out of it.

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    “As (if/when) fossil fuel supplies near depletion”

    We will never run out of hydrocarbon fuels. First of all, there is far more oil than we have discovered so far. The recent large discoveries off Brazil show this.

    Second, oil is a mineral, not a fossil fuel. The romantic notion that it is the leftovers from plankton from 250 million years ago has no scientific basis. There is way too much of it, and the oil itself would have to violate thermodynamic laws to be in the form it is today.

    If oil is created deep inside the Earth, there is probably a heck of a lot more of it that we can get to as we learn how to drill deeper and deeper.

    And in any case, we know how to manufacture oil, and when we get around to doing so using nuclear energy for the heat source, it will be cheaper and cleaner than what we are getting out of the ground today.

    I remember being in college and reading that the proven reserves of oil were seven years consumption. I was wondering why this was not causing a panic. The oil men knew they would find more. The year was 1973.

    What the world needs now is more, and cheaper, hydrocarbon fuels. That would do more for the developing nations and the poor of every nation, than any silly money transfer.

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    I wonder why no one has filed a RICO complaint against Mann and Hansen. This would allow deeep discovery of ALL the files and emails.

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    Hans-Heinrich Willberg

    @ Matty 57 – new politics! Yes the primary goal in Carbonhagen was an agreement to install a one world green government ruled by UN. A dictatorship to save the world. This would have been the end of democracy, freedom and prosperity. Thanks god, that this useless conference ended in desaster.

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    JS

    Strong Arm Tactics

    The UN could not pass Obama’s weak non-binding voluntary draft political statement, due to strong opposition from some countries, so they simply sacked the COP15 president during a short break and replaced him with a new President who simply resolved to “take note” of it instead, with names of endorsing countries attached. ( This means it is Not actually officially endorsed. )
    One observer said the US delegate was screaming at Ban Ki-Moon to “do something” during the break.

    However, Ban Ki-moon smoothly says this seals the deal of immediate operational effect of Copenhagen Accord, including January $30B Green Climate fund ( despite fact that funds are not pledged yet) and promised to implement it as a legally binding treaty after Christmas.

    It seems that just “taking note” of this weak two page document by a majority of countries is being seen by the UN as an affirmation of the sacred truth of the global religion of AGW, which henceforth will not be questionable!

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    Tel

    The bureaucracy is so large that there are few meaningful checks and balances, so “managers” tend to report numbers that the next level wants to hear. Everybody knows it happens, but nobody really cares, because everybody is being successful.

    That reminds me of some other place. Maybe Wall Street and the mortgage trading before the crash, or maybe the Iraq defense force under Saddam pretending they were well equipped to hold off the US invasion.

    There really should be a name for this situation, because it happens so often.

    Don’t rock the Titanic!

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    RobJM

    Brad Jensen said
    “Second, oil is a mineral, not a fossil fuel. The romantic notion that it is the leftovers from plankton from 250 million years ago has no scientific basis. There is way too much of it, and the oil itself would have to violate thermodynamic laws to be in the form it is today.”

    I think you need to study up you geology and chemistry a bit mate!
    Oil is not mineral, its an organic compound, whereas minerals are inorganic. (bones sort of being an exception)
    Science has well and truly established that you can get oil out of algae using heat and pressure, just look up algal biodiesel.
    The natural process just takes a long time since you need to cover the organic layer with a kM or two of rock first.
    Of course why we are wasting CO2 by putting it into the atmosphere instead of viewing it as a resource to be used for biodiesel production is beyond me. you don’t need the expensive cooling and compression like clean coal technology, you just bubble the exhaust strait into the algal pool.

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    Ed Gallagher

    It’s hysterical how the AGW KoolAid Club can’t decide on how much money they want to steal from those who produce and give to those who don’t.

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    Roy Hogue

    I just read Myron Ebell’s piece in update 3 at the top of this thread again. The politicking seems to be everything. Many of you have pointed it out as well.

    My father was a rather plain spoken down-to-earth guy like me and he broke down the word “politics” like this — poly, meaning many and tics, meaning lice. It summed up his contempt for politics rather nicely.

    I share his contempt for politicking. One of the reasons I respect Ronald Reagan so much is that he had a small sign on his desk saying, “There’s no limit to what you can accomplish if you don’t mind who gets the credit.” We need a lot more like him in politics today.

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    Roy Hogue

    A new model of politics??? More information please.

    Matty,

    I think they mean a dictatorship run by them.

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    bananabender

    RobJM said: “Science has well and truly established that you can get oil out of algae using heat and pressure, just look up algal biodiesel.”

    No researcher has ever been able to produce anything resembling crude oil from algae in a laboratory. Algal biodiesel is simply refined vegetable oil produced by algae. It is not produced under heat and pressure.

    The Russians consider crude oil to be a non-biological material contaminated with biological materials (from bacteria).

    All crude oil contains microscopic diamonds called diamondoids. Some diamonds also contain oil droplets. Diamonds are only produced at depths of 140+km in the mantle. It is impossible for any biological material to be buried that deep.

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    Henry chance

    Washington is preparing for a sprinkling of Goreflakes 20 inches deep. 50 cm of snow will create snow shovel work for the greenie weenies.

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    Brian G Valentine

    The UN, en masse, has long despised developed countries for being exactly that, the USA having been the foremost of the targets for their wrath.

    No news there – they have finally found a venue to display their aggression as a coalition, unfortunately this has been attempted much to their long term expense obviously.

    We appreciate the (volunteer) efforts of people such as Joanne to shed light where there is none so that people can see what the (misguided) are doing

    To themselves, surely

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    I Checked the hypothesis of abiogenisis of oil. Especially the factoid of microscopic diamonds in oil. Apparently, there is something to the idea.

    See: http://www.searchanddiscovery.com/documents/abstracts/2005research_calgary/abstracts/extended/keith/keith.htm

    My conclusion is that if we do not exceed the rate of abiogenisis of oil, we will not run out of it – ever.

    Also, another pet panic of the left is biting the dust: peak oil.

    See: http://seekingalpha.com/article/82236-the-peak-oil-myth-new-oil-is-plentiful

    My my. It seems we can’t hold on to good old fashion irrational alarm and panic any more. What are the wannabe despots of the world going to do? They are losing all their fake emergencies. They need something to use to justify the wholesale violation of individual rights and the theft of all the wealth of the productive. After all, we don’t want anybody to think they are nothing but a bunch of parasitical bullies and thugs not worth the air they breath now would we? Hmmmm. As a matter of fact, YES!

    Once again we see a war with reality is a war that cannot be won. Our challenge is to avoid being collateral damage.

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    Roy Hogue

    Washington is preparing for a sprinkling of Goreflakes 20 inches deep. 50 cm of snow will create snow shovel work for the greenie weenies.

    If they handle it like they did the last time I was in DC they’ll just try to ignore it. In the two weeks I was there the snow just stayed where it fell. Nothing was plowed. I’ve never seen anything quite like it. My motel was in Virginia and same thing there too.

    Talk about denial…

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    Brian G Valentine

    I live outside of Washington, DC of the USA – I haven’t seen so much snow fall at once here in quite a while.

    There are numerous Robins around (these birds are not native to Australia although they are thrushes as are Song Thrush or Mavis); this lead me to wonder, why didn’t these Robins migrate further south on the US continent for the winter?

    The reason, I have concluded, is that Holly trees have produced berries this year, most Hollies produce berries at most every other year.

    I have looked into abiogenesis of petroleum; concluding that it is certainly possible from acetylenic derivatives arising from carbides of the alkaline earth metals although liquid water needs to be present for that to happen. Also SP2 to SP3 hybridisation of carbon in carbide is inconsistent with diamond

    that’s quite enough of my yapping for one day

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    Roy Hogue

    Lionell,

    I suspect we’ll be the direct target for a long time, not just collateral damage.

    Our problem is nowhere near solved with the flop at Copenhagen or vast reserves of oil. If what I read in my local paper online is any indication, most in this world are either ignorant or fools if not both, including elected officials. Sound argument and facts do not even dent their armor. I give them links to easily understood explanations and they not only don’t read what’s there, they condemn the site it’s posted on.

    One post on a blog I regularly check used the alias “Nobody”. He/she/it had only name calling to offer. It tells you a lot about what we face.

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    Roy: I suspect we’ll be the direct target for a long time, not just collateral damage.

    Like I said, their war is with reality. We are not supposed to be possible according to their philosophy. We are at best viewed as a natural resource to be acquired and consumed at whim. From their perspective, we are not people nor do we have rights. We are just an accident of nature of less importance than moss on a tree. So how could we be considered targets since we don’t really exist. We are simply a mysterious unknowable thing that is “in the way.”

    Hence my point in another thread.

    Isn’t it interesting that they pretend to be greedy for golden eggs from the goose but starve the goose before they eat it. Then they blame the fact the goose can no longer lay golden eggs on the goose.

    I think target is a bit overstated but you might be right thatn collateral damage might be a bit of an understatement.

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    Roy Hogue

    We are not supposed to be possible according to their philosophy.

    Lionell,

    I accept that as given. It’s my own observation about several things. We rock their boat! They don’t like it. They have no pigeonhole they can fit us into.

    But they work to undermine and discredit us at every turn. To me that acknowledges our existence and backs up my statement that we’re a direct target.

    They have an awesome level of power and we escaped a deadly blow at Copenhagen only because they were so disorganized and really had no consensus going in. And never underestimate Obama. He pulled off what we thought impossible, some kind of agreement, however toothless. He persists until he literally wears down his opponents. The word no is not in his lexicon, not even when it should be and he is completely ruthless.

    I doubt that the Senate would ratify any binding agreement he signed if there had been one. But the pressure is now from the EPA, national, state and local governments.

    By our opposition we all have targets on our backs.

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    Roy: They have an awesome level of power

    Have you looked at what political power can actually accomplish? It can only accomplish destruction. It produces poverty and despair on the way to producing death and destruction of any life giving and sustaining activity. In fact, it eventually destroys those who hold it. The disorganization at Copenhagen is not an accident. It is because they mindlessly worship political power and believe that power alone is sufficient to achieve any goal. They get away with it only because we allow it and we pay for it with our lives. We must learn how to say no so they can’t evade it. Fortunately, we have bought a bit of time to do that.

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    Roy Hogue

    Have you looked at what political power can actually accomplish?

    Lionell,

    I see it every day. So I hope you don’t mistake my meaning. I fear it greatly. See my post 77 again. Many are ignorant, foolish or both. So many are looking for a savior that I can’t count them. Government preys on these people. Obama got into the White House on the backs of these people. So I’d say you are correct.

    All of us here (some exceptions) realize what’s going on. But our saying no simply won’t be enough. How do we get the message to the rest?

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    Roy @ 81,

    Like I said:

    We must learn how to say no so they can’t evade it.

    Agreed, saying no is not enough. However, we have hardly begun to do that little. Let alone say it in a way they cannot evade.

    Your question: How do we get the message to the rest?

    My answer: One at a time and by reconstructing the language and teaching an objective philosophy based upon reason, reality, and logic. It won’t be easy and it won’t be fast.
    But ideas matter and fundamental ideas matter most. Spread the right ideas.

    They started by destroying the concept of objective knowledge, then they destroyed the language, finally, they taught post modern philosophy in kaleidoscopic verity. Slowly from the time of Kant (18th Century), they have destroyed the ability of most minds to function. The masses have been turned into intellectual/psychological/emotional mirrors who live in a demented hall of similar mirrors. There are exceptions. It is these exceptions who must be engaged in the battle.

    Keep in mind. It is these exceptions who produce the values that sustain and enhance life. It is in those minds the wealth the left wishes to steal is first created. The so called power of arms the left uses was created by the exceptions and the they were taught by the exceptions how to use it. They could not and cannot do that for themselves. We must understand, their power comes from us. Only we can take it away.

    Our first choice is to vote them out of office. THAT has not worked for over 100 years. There is no reason to expect it will work now. Its worth a try, but don’t count on it.

    Ultimately, we must withdraw our minds and the products of our minds from them. This is the ultimate no. We can re-create technological civilization because we have done it once. They can only destroy it. We must set up a situation in which they destroy only themselves. Copenhagen was a good start.

    If you don’t have it, they can’t steal it.
    If you don’t produce it, they can’t tax it.
    Live lightly and produce only what you need to exist.
    Stay out of their way.

    Yes, that is a grim alternative but the sweet irony of it is that they will destroy themselves without our having to lift a finger. The reason is that we didn’t lift a finger to save them.

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    Roy Hogue

    If you don’t have it, they can’t steal it.
    If you don’t produce it, they can’t tax it.
    Live lightly and produce only what you need to exist.
    Stay out of their way.

    Lionell,

    Unfortunately some of us depend on the technology we would have to eschew. My wife and I are among those people. I won’t go into details, but untimely death (a real possibility) does not enthuse me at all.

    So it’s not just a grim reality but being caught between the hammer and the anvil for me.

    I take you to be a completely honest and forthright critical thinker or I would not carry on a conversation with you. As I said in a past thread, you have that gift for driving the nail in exactly where it needs to go. Your solution is certainly theoretically correct but impractical for me and I suspect, for a lot of others.

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    Roy,

    My “solution” would be equally fatal for me. I am a diabetic and depend upon the products and medical science of modern technological civilization to stay alive. However, if “they” have their way, I am done for anyway and, I suspect, you are as well.

    I simply offer that possibility as a way of saying NO without their being able to evade it. While blowing their brains out or hanging them from a high tree branch might be more satisfying, I suspect the only way that will work is our arranging things so they destroy themselves as we stay out of their way.

    I am willing to try the vote the bastards out of office method but would really like to have a viable plan B.

    I am open to suggestions short of my scorched earth option.

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    Dennis

    Don’t be naive. Just because things are looking bad now, that’s just how they look right before some government body wastes our money and strips our freedoms.

    In America, in the past year, that is just how things went right before they passed the bailout plan, the pork-barrel spending package dubbed a stimulus, the tax-and-spend aka cap-and-trade, and the health care takeover plan.

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    Roy Hogue

    Lionell,

    Voting some of them out of office will probably happen. Obama is working hard to make himself a political eunuch but how far that will go is anyone’s guess.

    The UN is the single biggest problem. They are accountable to no one. Period! And the U.S. pays 25% of their annual budget every single year. So we are enablers of this nonsense, much to our shame. If the tide could be turned against the UN and we said sorry no more free ride, get out of the country, I think it would seriously hurt their ability to hurt us. But I won’t hold my breath until I see it happen.

    Beyond that I’ve no ideas except to keep getting the word out to anyone who will listen.

    They are now more than ever targeting our children through their schools and that is another thing we must fight. But again, it takes a lot of people knowing what’s going on and having the backbone to stand up and object to it. I won’t hold my breath until I see that happen either.

    A possible plan B might be simply that when things get too bad people will revolt. But that will take life getting really painful for a while.

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    Roy Hogue

    Dennis,

    I don’t get your meaning. Can you elaborate?

    Roy

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    Mark D.

    I am certain that the “new model of politics” is indeed what we have to worry about most. The next “panic” they will need to create is the “urgent need to control” the “radical deniers” and prevent their ability to speak relatively freely. Until they silence us they will not likely complete their One World tax system.

    Mandatory reading for skeptics should be the story of one Maurice F. Strong and the words spoken by him and a host of his cronies. It is really simple to see why we have these problems (like the phoney AGW) when you realize the thinking of those shadow power brokers. What needs to be found soon is a way to shut THEM down. They undoubtedly already have another “panic” waiting to be foist upon the weak of mind, (if AWG is no longer useful to them).

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    Ray Hibbard

    Roy Hogue, Lionell Griffith

    I have been following your conversation over the last few post. I hope you guys don’t mind my interjecting here.

    Correct me if I am wrong Lionell but what I take you as saying is that if we just produce what we need we materially affect the political class’s power. In your case that includes insulin so you produce and prepare for the obvious need of purchase of insulin but restrict yourself from the usual ambitions to amass larger amounts of wealth. I hope that’s an accurate characterization of your position. If it is I agree completely. I don’t think you are condoning suicide, besides its redundant, in the long run we are all dead anyway. Life is a suicide mission anyway; nobody is getting out of this alive.

    If we come to live in a society, which because of the insanity of the collectivists among us, no longer values individuals and their rights to their labor and property then withholding that labor is the only course left open to us with the exception of armed resistance. If they are more comfortable with ditch diggers then be all means give them an entire nation of ditch diggers, see how that works out for them. This is not meant to deride ditch digging I’ve done it and probably will do it again, great full body work out. I used to work with quit a few Russian scientists that came over during the late 1970’s. They used to tell me that the government pretended to pay them and they pretended to work. Sounds like a plan.

    I would add that the key to this is to reach the young people we know. They get this pap shoved at them every day. Take them into your confidence; explain the collectivist screed to them and what the inevitable result of its implementation has been in history every time it’s been tried. Ultimately they will cease to live in our world and we will begin to live in theirs. Let’s make sure they are constructing that world with best evidence at hand as to how to go about it.

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    Grant

    Brad @ 62

    I agree about peak oil being another myth. It certainly benefits oil producers and Governments for there to be a notion of Peak Oil. Governments can rort exploration licenses out of the producers and the producers can ratchet up the prices.

    Nearly as big a scam as CO2 caused climate change but the same forces/motives in play.

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    Ray @ 89,

    You almost have it and yes, I am not advocating suicide.

    My primary point is that they have power BECAUSE we gave it to them by creating its intellectual and material bases. We were too busy living our lives and being productive to notice what they were doing and to take action to stop them.

    If we go on strike and refuse to use our minds in their behalf, we will have removed the source of their power. They are at war with reality and cannot produce their means of power themselves. They will eventually experience a catastrophic failure. Our challenge is not to get caught in the fallout of that failure. I am looking for a viable plan B. I haven’t found one yet beyond working on reaching the willing and helping them to get a clue.

    I am suggesting that we must stop “saving the day” and “making the system work in spite of itself.” Allow it to function as designed. Let it fall of its own weight. It cannot sustain itself. It will self destruct. I have seen it happen, small scale, many times. The idea works.

    Fortunately I am not insulin dependent and can maintain normal blood glucose levels by diet, life style, and medication. I have a list of other issues that have required and will require modern medical technology to correct. Most of what I need exists because of modern technological civilization. If that goes, I will go with it along with a large fraction of the population of the Earth.

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    Roy Hogue

    Ray,

    I will second Lionell. However, you are right, we don’t get out alive. But in the meantime I want to have a life. And more to the point to have that life my wife and I both depend on medical technology. It’s literally a matter of possible untimely death for her. If the fools who want to control our lives succeed, they will choke off access to the medical technology we need. I’m doing anything I can to fight the so-called healthcare reform now being pushed by Obama for the same reason. It will not only increase the cost to everyone, but will result in much suffering and death by government imposed restrictions and out-and-out rationing. It will choke off the care we need.

    I would add that the key to this is to reach the young people we know. They get this pap shoved at them every day. Take them into your confidence; explain the collectivist screed to them and what the inevitable result of its implementation has been in history every time it’s been tried. Ultimately they will cease to live in our world and we will begin to live in theirs. Let’s make sure they are constructing that world with best evidence at hand as to how to go about it.

    This is our problem. But it’s being done in our public schools. We have foolishly given control to “experts” instead of keeping close watch and objecting when more and more control was taken by the state and federal educrats. Now we’ll have one hell of a job to undo it. I wonder if it even can be undone. It’s a little microcosm of what Lionell so aptly describes in general.

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    [...] Copenhagen: Blizzards, walk-outs, frustration – Good News « JoNova [...]

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    Ray Hibbard

    One answer to the medical issues that fall under ObamaCare is the same as any shortage during a time of occupation. We go Black Market. Talk to your doctor before it becomes a crime to do so. I will be talking to mine the next time I see him.

    Roy Hogue: post 92
    This is our problem. But it’s being done in our public schools. We have foolishly given control to “experts” instead of keeping close watch and objecting when more and more control was taken by the state and federal educrats. Now we’ll have one hell of a job to undo it. I wonder if it even can be undone. It’s a little microcosm of what Lionell so aptly describes in general.

    It has been my experience that all humans at any age have a BS detector. Mine is good to 1000 yards even with the wind against me. You will be surprised at how readily the young take to the truth when you look them in the eye and tell it to them. They know something doesn’t sound right and when you point the logical errors in their teachers’ argument they then gain trust in you as someone they can believe. The best tactic I have found is by starting out asking the right questions. Little by little you lead them to the point that makes no sense because of the logic error. At that point when they give you that blank stare because even they can’t reconcile the nonsense you point out the logical error in what their teacher as pumped into them. You may have more discussion at this point because once learned beliefs are not easily discarded. But the next time will be easier and the next easier still. You will then become their ‘go to’ guy when arguments that the teacher shoves at them make no sense.

    I have done this with my own daughter. First I have never lied to her about ANYTHING.
    Even when subjects were my own behavior as a young man, some that I would say are less then flattering. She knows all my failings through life, the good the bad and the ugly.
    Because of this she knows that although I can make mistakes she will only get what I BELIEVE to be the truth from me.

    Montaigne: “I tell the truth, not as much as I would but as much as I dare. And I dare more and more as I grow older.”

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    Roy Hogue

    It has been my experience that all humans at any age have a BS detector. Mine is good to 1000 yards even with the wind against me. You will be surprised at how readily the young take to the truth when you look them in the eye and tell it to them.

    Ray,

    Others have made this point as well and I suspect it’s generally correct. My problem is that we each have contact only with our own children and no great opportunity to influence other’s children. I worry about all the children that you and I can’t reach. In the meantime the schools have a hold on children for hours every day and can do virtually whatever they want to. Parents are literally excluded from observing in classrooms in some places. Dissenting opinion clearly is an offense to teachers, their unions and school boards. Their arrogance isn’t even thinly veiled anymore. I don’t know how this can be fought effectively short of putting your children in private schools. And even there, as in California, certain things must be taught as a matter of state law, no matter how offensive they may be. Even home schooling is being clamped down on. The last thing any of these progressive postmodernist thinkers want is someone who can think for himself. If you can do that they can’t control you.

    As I pointed out to Lionell, maybe the only plan B is to let things get so bad that people will rebel in large numbers. But that will take things getting really bad and people suffering for quite a time first.

    And yes, I’m cynical. But I got there honestly through watching life go by for a long time.

    If you have any ideas I’m all ears as the saying goes.

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    Ray Hibbard

    Roy, remember that these kids talk to each other. Every young person you enlighten could potentially enlighten a dozen more, and so on, and so on. The truth is a powerful virus it can stand on its own, people can recognize it in their guts, it’s a visceral reaction.
    Apart from that, and I don’t remember who said it “The only shot you have a 100% probability of missing is the one you don’t take”.
    In any case if we do go down the plan ‘B’ path we will have more individuals standing with us.

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    Roy Hogue

    Roy, remember that these kids talk to each other. Every young person you enlighten could potentially enlighten a dozen more, and so on, and so on. The truth is a powerful virus it can stand on its own, people can recognize it in their guts, it’s a visceral reaction.

    This is only true for some, not for all. I taught for 17 years at the community college level and I’ve seen what comes out of our schools.

    Apart from that, and I don’t remember who said it “The only shot you have a 100% probability of missing is the one you don’t take”.
    In any case if we do go down the plan ‘B’ path we will have more individuals standing with us.

    Yes, true. But I hope we don’t end up there.

    The number of people who don’t like what was tried in Copenhagen is growing. If that trend continues then maybe we can win at he polls. But it seems to be backlash at Obama and more spending rather than understanding of the global warming hoax.

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    Sharpshooter

    I notice that the folks that keep barfing “For the Children”, don’t have any, or maybe only one.

    Having kids makes you more TRULY future oriented rather than future suicidal.

    Giving absolute power to bureaucrats is SUICIDAL.

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    Roy Hogue

    This is all over my Verizon home page news this morning. So they don’t think it’s over at all.

    http://www.verizon.net/newsroom/portals/newsroom.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=newsroom_portal_page_world_article&_article=2512998

    “UN climate chief urges avoiding blame over summit”

    ” Yvo de Boer, head of the U.N. climate change secretariat, also said it could take months before poor countries begin receiving billions of dollars in emergency funds to adapt to climate change and begin controlling their emissions of greenhouse gases.”

    This is a direct quote from the AP article.

    True believers all.

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    Tel

    Roy,

    If the opposition could push for just one answer from Kevin Rudd, I suggest they push him for clear documentation of where the UN is going to spend this “emergency” money, and exactly how the taxpayers will be informed of progress. Let’s see if Rudd can deliver on accountability and transparency in the process, with measurable outcomes… because that’s one thing the UN never explains, where the money goes and what they do with it.

    Once we have clear visibility of who gets the money and what results are expected, then we consider actually paying our contribution.

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    ThomasJ

    Why the f*** even consider to pay anything for something that ain’t?
    ;)

    Regards/TJ

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    Roy Hogue

    Tel,

    I’d not give a dime to support what we all know is a fraud. But I understand your point. You’ve put your finger on exactly the problem, accountability. First off there’s the UN which is accountable to exactly no one. Then there are the governments of so-called democracies that are anything but democracies because their leaders seek to hide and disguise their double-dealing, self-serving and dishonest agendas and we have let them get away with it. We can be bought too easily when we should not allow ourselves to be bought at any price.

    As I’ve already said, the best thing developed nations across the world could possibly do is withdraw from the UN and kick them out of the country. The UN is not our friend in any sense of the word.

    Then, yes, demand accountability from Rudd, Obama and every other leader everywhere. Hold their feet to the fire and never let up.

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    Tel

    Of course I don’t seriously expect the UN to ever produce a workable system to be able to track funds from source to spending. It’s just a question that you ask for going through the motions of reminding everyone that we know what they are doing.

    Then, yes, demand accountability from Rudd, Obama and every other leader everywhere. Hold their feet to the fire and never let up.

    It’s weird with Obama, I actually thought he was going to carry through with some of his campaign rhetoric regarding accountability and transparency. He was talking about getting ideas direct from Internet contributers, sending out transcripts of bills before they are voted, delivering detailed statements of accounts in some universal format (I remember that XML was discussed) and a whole bunch of things. There was a touch of genuine promise that he might be a little bit more than the “Same You Can Believe In”.

    He even made a few small steps down that process then it all went quiet. It bothers me, somehow I thought that Obama really believed in the ideas he pushed during his campaign, and the Occam’s Razor explanation is that when Obama got to Washington and tried to actually implement a few things he hit such entrenched resistance that he has been floundering ever since. This would imply that the rot in Washington goes very deep.

    Then again, I’m also surprised by the number of high profile people attempting to defend the CRU email scandal by saying that it was no big deal. This shows that a lot of important people are willing to go out on a limb defending what is obviously indefensible hoping that the sheeple will happily think whatever they are told to think. The rot in the scientific establishment must run a lot deeper than anyone expected.

    The brazen confidence of the bullshit artists regularly makes me question whether they could have miscalculated so badly or whether we all have. How close are we to the situation where people who say the wrong things can be summarily silenced with a wave of the hand? How would you know?

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    Roy Hogue

    Tel,

    We could have long discussions about Obama. But the man was always all too obvious to me. When someone makes claims and promises that seem too good to be true then my BS meter goes into overload and stays there. I listened to his acceptance speech at the convention and he pretty literally promised to save the world. I half expected him to grow 20 feet tall at the end and proclaim that he was the second coming of Jesus Christ.

    He literally got into office with words. He’s got the slickest tongue I’ve ever seen. But once in office he’s proved that words are all he has — words and, unfortunately, the persistence of a bad idea whose time has long run out but sticks around anyway. He never gives up.

    He set the tone for his administration at his first meeting with Republicans when he told them, “We won.” He’d be laughable if he didn’t have such a destructive agenda. But he does. And he surrounds himself with subordinates who subscribe to that same radical agenda and are more than capable enough to make up for his incompetence in leadership and management. That they screw up frequently and very visibly doesn’t seem to bother his supporters a bit.

    He’s not good for his own country or the rest of the world. It’s all too obvious that he had no intention of operating openly as he said would. He’s been divisive instead of bringing people together as he said he would. He’s torn down his country wherever he went. I wonder just exactly whose president he really is. And I’ve not the slightest doubt that the difference between Obama the candidate and Obama the president is anything but intentional.

    ————-

    I always try to call things as I see them so forgive my being cynical. I got there honestly through watching the world around me for a long time.

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    Tel

    I’ve not the slightest doubt that the difference between Obama the candidate and Obama the president is anything but intentional.

    OK, that’s a very interesting assessment of the situation, you are sitting a lot closer to the fire than I am and you no doubt have a better feeling for the cultural details.

    I always try to call things as I see them so forgive my being cynical. I got there honestly through watching the world around me for a long time.

    Not at all, your honest opinion is much more valuable to me than just throwing my own words back in the air.

    I give Obama a bit more credit than you do under the circumstance but we probably agree that the end result of his actions will not be good (Obama got a dealt a bad hand to begin with, I can’t believe McCain tried all that hard to win, and I can well appreciate why the 44th president was guaranteed a rough time regardless of who got the job).

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    Roy Hogue

    Tel,

    Obama indeed did pick up the job with a bad hand to play — economy in a nosedive, at war… But then his response to a bad economy is to borrow — borrow — borrow. When the Chinese admonish him to quit spending money he doesn’t have it tells me I’m right, we’re in debt to the point where we’ll suffer badly for it. And the money goes to the favorite causes of his pals in Congress and not to the places where it can really do some good. And spending money you don’t have is not the way out of economic trouble in any case.

    He’s uncertain about the war. I think he’d like to ignore it. It didn’t take all those months to decide whether to send more troops to his hand-picked theater commander in Afghanistan. That decision shouldn’t take more than a few days. It’s almost self making. Why did he not work out the right strategy before giving General McChrystal the job? You do the homework first, not after you’re into it up to your ears.

    Then when another attempt to take down an airliner was foiled by a quick thinking passenger, Obama stayed on the golf course while his advisors stared at each other wondering what to do. Tel, if I’m president and something like that happens my golf outing is over and I’m on the phone with Homeland Security, my Secretary of Defense and the FAA. I want to know what’s happening and why. I want to know what they know and know it when they know it. That’s what the job is all about.

    I’ll be honest with you, this man’s detachment from his responsibility and reality frightens me.

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