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Amazing what the West could do: France went from 0 to 56 nuclear reactors in just 15 years

Once, when the West could build things, problems got solved

Back in 2007 at least a few people still remembered that golden era. Here’s Dr Ziggy Switkowski, who at the time was head of the Prime Minister’s nuclear task force:

The French in 15 years went from zero reactors to 59 reactors and 80% of their electricity is nuclear. ABC

Now we don’t even dream of success. If we had started in 2007, Australia could have had ten plants finished already.

Back in the 1970s and 80’s eh? Wow look at that take off…

The first nuclear plant in France was built by the EDF in 1962. Then the 1972 oil crisis put a rocket under the industry. So Prime Minister Pierre Messmer came up with a plan to build an unbelievable 170 nuclear plants by 2000.

Electricity in France, Nuclear power, graph.

Theanphibian https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Electricity_in_France.svg

By the mid 1980s it was clear that would not happen, but not for the reasons you might think. The problem was not that they weren’t building plants fast enough, but that they were building them too fast.  Demand wasn’t rising fast enough to keep up. The plants are most efficient running at 80-90% but by 1988 there were so many plants the capacity factor of France’s nuclear power stations was only running at 60%. There was too much generation to run them efficiently.

From Wikipedia, there are lessons here on how different the situation was: Three plants were started the same year

The problem of how to solve highly technical decisions is not like this either:

French nuclear power:

The announcement of the Messmer Plan was enacted without public or parliamentary debate.[16][17] Concern over the government’s action spread among the scientific community of France. The lack of consultation outside of political realms regarding the plan led to the formation of the Groupement des scientifiques pour l’information sur l’énergie nucléaire (Association of Scientists for Information on Nuclear Energy). 4,000 scientists signed a petition as a response, known as the Appeal of the 400 after the 400 scientists who initially signed it. [16]

The reason that the Messmer Plan was enacted without public or parliamentary debate, was because that there was no tradition to do that with highly-technological and strategically-important decisions in the governments of France and the parliament did not have a scientific commission with sufficient technical means to handle such scientific and strategic decisions, just like the public does not have such means. France does not have any procedure of public inquiries to allow the assessment of major technological programmes.[18] The plan envisaged the construction of around 80 nuclear plants by 1985 and a total of 170 plants by 2000.[16] Work on the first three plants, at TricastinGravelines, and Dampierre started the same year[7] and France installed 56 reactors over the next 15 years.[19]

However by the mid 1980s it became clear that the Messmer plan had been overambitious. Nuclear power plants achieve their optimum economic value when run flat out, and the projected demand had not materialized. By 1988 France’s nuclear power plants had a capacity factor of only around 60%, whereas other countries that had not invested in nuclear power so heavily were nearer 80-90%.[7]

France’s population is about 3 times Australia’s. So perhaps we could only build, say, 18 reactors by 2040 –Where was that election plan?

At the moment, by 2040 we’ll be lucky to get one nuclear sub to plug into the grid.

*Ziggy says 59 power stations, Wiki says 56.

9.9 out of 10 based on 68 ratings

90 comments to Amazing what the West could do: France went from 0 to 56 nuclear reactors in just 15 years

  • #
    mundi

    France did the right thing and kept scientists out of it.

    Believe it or not… you want field scientists and engineers applying science, and not academic scientists, when you are actually putting something in for a practical purpose.

    Unfortunately academic paper only scientists now dominate almost everywhere, which is why so little is ever achieved out of modern universities, and almost all scientific application is pushed forwarded by private engineering.

    If you took the designs that worked for 50 years without issue and went to build it today, and didn’t let them know they were already well proven designs: you would be flooded with scientific types writing group letters about how it will be a disaster and claiming every single aspect of the plant is done wrong.

    I face this enough in my industry when we import some plant that has decades of operational history and academic safety inspectors will show up and claim its a death trap because they wrote some australians standard that it doesn’t meet. and then you learn they have never owned operated or designed a plant anything like it – but will claim intellectual ownership over how it should be made.

    672

    • #
      Ian

      “Unfortunately academic paper only scientists now dominate almost everywhere, which is why so little is ever achieved out of modern universities, and almost all scientific application is pushed forwarded by private engineering.”

      The facts tell an entirely different story. Here are some to heck for yourself
      https://thebrilliant.com.au/case-studies/34-australian-inventions-changing-your-life-right-now/
      https://thebrilliant.com.au/case-studies/10-australian-inventions-equipping-us-for-the-future/

      120

      • #
        Gary S

        May be a lot of grant money sloshing around from big green and big pharma.

        70

      • #
        Leo G

        The facts tell an entirely different story.

        You refer to Scientia professors like Martin Green at the University of NSW, who is not academic staff but research staff. He is not now an “academic paper only scientist”, nor was he such in my contact with him over 30 years ago.

        50

    • #

      France used to value engineers. Specific engineering Colleges were started before Napoleon but he established many colleges and had engineering divisions in this armies. Lazare Carnot (a French military engineer) started writing about thermodynamics just before 1800 and his son Sadi Carnot (also a military engineer) is known as the father or founder of thermodynamics. As noted French engineers are one of the leaders in nuclear power and nuclear material processing. They have nuclear weapons and a very good aeronautical businesses (airplanes, space launchers etc). The French submarines were designed for nuclear propulsion. It was the stupid politicians Turnbull and Hunt who wanted them modified for diesel. The present French politicians are EU socialists who do not want to listen to engineers preferring unqualified climate scientists

      40

  • #
    GlenM

    It must be said that about 5 percent of science is meaningful – true discoveries that offer real solutions are rare. Treading over the same old ground for the huge numbers of substandard scientists churned out of the institutional factories. They are our “experts ” that politicians clamor for advice.

    270

    • #
      Chad

      There are few true “Scientists” contributing to improving society.
      But… there are many “Technical Experts” advising politicians.

      220

      • #
        PeterS

        There are also a few who make it their business to commit fraud and make lots of money.

        60

  • #
    Chad

    France managed to achieve this as a result of strong leadership, and clear decision making.
    Something that is sadly lacking these days !
    I suspect the changes to the plan in the mid 80s to reduce the total number of plants, would also have been influenced by Chernoble.

    171

    • #
      Lance

      France also standardized their reactor and steam plant designs and created fuel reprocessing to minimize their waste volume.

      They did the smart things.

      120

  • #
    Rafe+Champion

    Never forget the role of the international communist movement in stirring up popular resistance to nuclear power.

    Yes Virginia, there was an international movement with central control in Moscow.

    This is John Grover’s account with special reference to Australia and the role of the school teachers in New South Wales.

    240

  • #
    DLK

    never gonna happen until the energy grid collapses.
    there is too much money in unreliables for them

    280

    • #
      Honk R Smith

      Hasn’t Renewable energy, driven by climate fear porn, become little more the a Ponzi scheme with unsuspecting tax payers as the marks?
      The scheme inevitably collapses.
      I’m making a generous assumption that intentions were sincere early on.

      140

      • #
        Richard C (NZ)

        Honk >”Hasn’t Renewable energy, driven by climate fear porn, become little more the a Ponzi scheme…”

        And ESG:

        ESG Funds Post Largest Monthly Outflow On Record As The “Greenwashing” Racket Starts To Unravel
        https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/esg-funds-post-largest-monthly-outflow-record-greenwashing-racket-starts-unravel

        Recall, we first noted back in September 2021 that the SEC was on the case looking at companies that claimed to be ESG.

        Stocked with blue-chips, these [ESG] funds don’t exactly scream environmentally friendly and socially responsible. One industry insider confirmed as much when he shared a new term: “green washing”.

        Since then, we have run at least a half dozen reports about abuses in the ESG space [links]:

        The Fraud That Is ESG Strikes Again: Six Of Top 10 ESG Funds Underperform The S&P500

        Behold The “Green” Scam: Here Are The Most Popular ESG Fund Holdings

        Nation’s Largest ESG Fund Has No Direct Renewable Holdings

        Top Carbon-Credit-Seller Launches Internal Probe After Selling “Worthless” Offsets To JPMorgan, Disney

        The ESG Threat

        ESG Investing – The Great Wall Street Money Heist

        The Gigantic Holes In Anti-Oil ESG Activism

        More ESG Fraud: BofA Finds That Tech Is One Of The Dirtiest Industries

        ESG green washing is opportunity cost in economics terms – nuclear’s never going to happen in OZ with that around.

        100

      • #
        RickWill

        Hasn’t Renewable energy, driven by climate fear porn, become little more the a Ponzi scheme with unsuspecting tax payers as the marks?

        This electricity based Ponzi scheme is a bit more sophisticated. Everyone pays taxes but the mandated transfer payments to intermittent generators enriches some tax payers to disadvantage others. In my own small way, I am benefitting from these transfer payments. I have zero household energy costs as I make a small income from exported electricity that pays for gas heating – I am currently in surplus $150 but that will be eroded with the next gas bill as the exported electricity is almost zero this time of year.

        Grid scale intermittents benefit the proponents and financiers at the expense of electricity consumers. They benefit from the government mandated transfer payments.

        As the cost of electricity continues to spiral upward, the government may need to bail-out more consumers and that money with be from general revenue so shared in proportion to tax payed. I think Portland smelter has been the biggest beneficiary of bail-outs to date.

        There is also some direct funding for seed projects that comes from general revenue. Twiggy Forrest and AGL are currently setting up to farmgreen hydrogen subsidies in a big way. I expect there will be transfer payments levied on natural gas consumers that ensure the green hydrogen projects are profitable.

        90

        • #
          Honk R Smith

          Richard/Rick
          thanks interesting
          My impression is that Oz pols are more often true believers, and overwhelmed more rational policy, whereas here in the US Renewables are political window dressing and our grid is less damaged by Green puritanism … so far.

          81

          • #
            RickWill

            The Australian electricity market has become very complex (or sophisticated). It is a mess but it is beginning to isolate intermittent generators as the cause of the problem. The next payment in the pipeline is a payment to dispatchable generators to sit idle but with available capacity. Batteries will also get that payment. BUT dispatchable generation is now being recognised as a necessity and something that intermittents do not offer.

            The Ponzi scheme is beginning to unravel. My situation shows one of the problems. I have 3kW of solar panels on-grid and 3kW of panels with battery off grid. The latter maximise my export by reducing on-grid load. However, last year my neighbour installed a 6kW on-grid system. Now on a sunny day, the street voltage is at the maximum and my system winds back – as does his. Fixing this “problem” is very expensive for the distribution networks. Some money is being spent on it but not enough to make a difference. About 30% of the suburban roofs in Australia have solar panels and only new housing developments have a network able to carry the reverse power flow. Few people are aware of this issue but it means the payback period is being extended although it is still a good investment compared with term deposit rates.

            70

            • #
              yarpos

              “…………still a good investment compared with term deposit rates.” most things are

              10

        • #

          This is why the Federal Government Budget and all State/Territory Government Budgets should have a line item detailing all those transfer/subsidy (stolen) taxpayer funded amounts so that there can be proper and truthful analysis by competent analysts (NOT MSM so called journalists) and reporting in plain English to the Public. It will never happen of course as Government Accounting Standards are non existent.

          80

      • #
        DLK

        I’m making a generous assumption that intentions were sincere early on.

        in the same way Don Quixote is sincere when he charges the windmills thinking they are giants?

        40

    • #
      OldOzzie

      The AFR View

      Labor gets mugged by global energy reality

      The coal and gas supply crisis shows that old energy can’t be dumped before the new is ready to pick up the load.

      A full-blown national energy crisis has dropped into the lap of the Albanese government two weeks after it won an election in which it promised to ease cost of living pressures.

      Both Labor and the Coalition spent the election cynically telling voters they could cut power bills while fixing up climate change along the way.

      Now household and industrial power bill shocks are fuelling the inflation surge driven in part by Australia’s success in recovering quickly from the pandemic, and in part by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

      After blaming Scott Morrison for higher energy prices, Labor has been mugged by the same global forces that have compounded years of structural policy failures for which almost all sides of Australia’s climate wars share some of the blame.

      Most of all, Australia and the world are paying the price of curtailing the supply of the key fuel – gas – that is critical to keeping the lights on during the decades-long transition to a renewables-based low-carbon economy.

      Energy Minister Chris Bowen is right to suggest there is no quick and easy answer, even if that risks sounding like it isn’t the new government’s job. He also is right to reject knee-jerk reactions that risk making the problem worse.

      The immediate crisis is the result of a perfect storm including the early winter cold snap on the east coast, a sharp reduction in solar electricity generation and disruptions to the coal-fired power stations that still account for most of Australia’s baseload electricity.

      The most readily available fix may be Origin Energy CEO Frank Calabria’s call to get coal-fired power stations fully operational again.

      A third of east coast coal-fired capacity was offline last month because of mishaps, maintenance, or problems at coal mines. The surge in global coal prices has further diverted gas from industrial use and heating into electricity generation, lifting east coast gas demand by a third amid a global gas market already in severe undersupply.

      Yet this is happening in a country full of onshore gas that is scientifically safe to tap, but locked away under moratoriums imposed by governments fearful of environmental activists.

      “The east coast is a prime example of what happens if the energy transition is focused only on stopping new oil and gas projects”, says Santos boss Kevin Gallagher, who is trying to accelerate the company’s huge Narrabri gas development in NSW, due to open in 2026.

      140

      • #
        OldOzzie

        Liberals will let teal seats stew on lack of power for now

        Peter Dutton said the path back to government runs through the suburbs, regions and small business. In reality, he has not abandoned the blue-ribbon seats lost to teal independents.

        Much has been made about how Anthony Albanese is just the fourth Labor leader since World War II to take the party from opposition to government. The other three were Gough Whitlam, Bob Hawke and Kevin Rudd.

        Not much, however, has been said or written about how only four Liberal leaders have also achieved the same feat.

        Robert Menzies defeated Ben Chifley; Malcolm Fraser, albeit controversially, took power from Whitlam; John Howard defeated Paul Keating; and, in 2013, Tony Abbott became the fourth Liberal leader to win government from opposition since World War II when he knocked off Rudd.

        New Liberal leader Peter Dutton is aiming to be the fifth. History tells us Dutton won’t get there because no one, Labor or Liberal, who became opposition leader immediately after their party lost government has gone on to become prime minister. Moreover, it has been 90 years since Australia had a one-term government.

        Dutton is unperturbed by such precedents and, given the disdain for orthodoxy that politics displays these days, who could blame him?

        On Monday this week, as Albanese told caucus to plan for at least two terms in government, Dutton told his troops the plan was to limit Labor to just one.

        The task will be enormous. The Coalition has been reduced to 58 seats, meaning it needs a minium of 18 more to win back power. The Nationals retained all their seats at the election, meaning the recovery pretty much rests solely with the Liberal Party, whose losses included the six blue-ribbon seats in Melbourne, Sydney and Perth that went to teal independents.

        From Albanese’s perspective, none of the teals occupies a seat that Labor has a chance of winning. They are Dutton’s challenge, not his.

        Dutton all but ignored this aspect of the catastrophe on Tuesday when he outlined the path back to power as running through the suburbs, the regions and the small business constituency.

        As for the Liberal voters who deserted the party for the teals, there was no love. Well-heeled voters could cope with high petrol prices, “but in many of the areas we represent, in the suburbs, regional communities, people are putting $20 and $40 in their car because they can’t afford to fill up”.

        “Similarly with the electricity bills. There’ll be an increase under Labor. Let’s be clear, electricity prices will up under Labor.”

        There was no humility, just defiance.

        To back his stated course of action, Dutton cited initial post-election analysis that showed while 200,000 voters deserted the Coalition for the teals, 700,000 left the Coalition to vote for parties on the right.

        For example, in the NSW seat of Hume, held by Angus Taylor, there was a 7.3 per cent primary swing to One Nation, despite the candidate being rarely sighted and the party not bothering to staff polling booths. Labor has similar tales to tell, especially in Victoria.

        It attributed swings to One Nation and the United Australia Party to what one MP called the larger-then-usual “pissed-off factor” which was aimed at both major parties and was a consequence of the COVID-19 hangover. Dutton called it a “pox on both your houses” election.

        None of these swings to the right cost the Liberals seats, but many of them were rendered more marginal.

        Let them stew for a while

        Inside the party, there is a prevailing view to let those who abandoned the Liberal Party stew for a while on the fact that their seat no longer has any pull in Canberra.

        This will be aided by Labor forming majority government with 77 seats, which enables it to sideline the 16-member crossbench.

        But from Albanese’s perspective, none of the teals occupies a seat that Labor has a chance of winning. They are Dutton’s challenge, not his.

        “We’re not going to poke them in the eye,” one minister says of the teals. “We’re happy for them to stay there because they keep the other mob out.”

        Dutton still thinks there is scope to pick a fight on climate change. That’s a risk, but one that was slightly mitigated by the catastrophic energy crisis that has greeted the new government and rekindled a demand for gas.

        After three years of constant complaint about how useless the Morrison government was at everything, Labor’s first response to the crisis was to blame its predecessor and say there is nothing that can immediately be done.

        Not quite “I don’t hold a hose”, but definitely not what voters want to hear.

        70

        • #
          b.nice

          “there is a prevailing view to let those who abandoned the Liberal Party ”

          Sorry, but it was the Liberal Party that abandoned their voters.

          221

      • #
        OldOzzie

        johanna says:
        June 3, 2022 at 9:27 am

        The coal and gas supply crisis shows that old energy can’t be dumped before the new is ready to pick up the load.

        Reminds me of an old Dutch proverb which translates as:

        Never throw out old shoes before you have new ones.

        Drummed into me as a child, never let me down.

        220

      • #
        DLK

        The coal and gas supply crisis shows that old energy can’t be dumped before the new is ready to pick up the load.

        renewables will never be able to pick up the load (cannot provide baseload power, ever).

        so the energy policy is nothing more than BS.

        oh dear.

        210

      • #
        John in Oz

        Why does it take a crisis to reveal the idiocy?

        Blind Freddy could have seen that removing one form of supply before building its replacement is asking for problems.

        Unfotunately, blind Freddy is not in government nor an ‘expert’ or ‘advisor’ to our lords and masters.

        140

        • #
          GlenM

          When you have a majority of people who don’t understand concepts like base load you have a problem. People lack reason and would rather prefer slogans. Witness Greens and steals.

          130

          • #
            Lawrie

            Representatives have a mailing allowance. Instead of the flyer extolling the virtue of the sender why not fill them with facts on costs and availability of renewables compared to reliables. The government can not cheallenge facts so the Opposition could keep spreading the real news.

            60

        • #

          For the simple reason that the “Pollies” will never ever admit to making mistakes. So, unfortunately it is “Crash and Burn” and then they blame someone else for the mess (If they can get away with it).

          70

          • #
            Terry

            We do not need Polliemuppets (nor their entrenched bureaucrats) to admit their mistakes. We need a populace with the nous, wisdom, and integrity to hold them accountable.

            Any belated confession they might conjure in order to escape justice will undoubtedly lack any actual remorse or sincerity. Regardless of whether it was ever offered, I will remain absolutely unmoved and uninterested in their pleas for mercy. Too little, too late. Just go!

            30

    • #
      PJS

      You are correct DLK. The people in power and the zeitgeist is for renewables. The only way the current hegemon is going to be broken is by a massive systemic failure, and a reaction by the political class that takes responsibility for energy security away from the renewables carpet baggers and places it in the hands of salaried government engineers, like the ones who used to run the SECV. You know, leaders like Sir John Monash. If we are lucky those people still exist.

      30

  • #
    Beta Blocker

    If Australia wants to adopt nuclear power as a option, it is best to plan on using the oncoming small modular reactors (SMRs) as the technology basis. These will produce the best combination of reliability, scalability, technical and financial project risk management, and flexibility of application in a load-following environment.

    The single biggest issue with new-build nuclear is controlling its capital cost. In Australia, serious consideration should be given to the nuclear power option only after one of the oncoming SMR designs has been successfully constructed on cost and on schedule, either in the US, in Canada, or in the UK.

    Here in the US, it remains my opinion that NuScale’s SMR design will be the first to go operational, probably in 2029. TerraPower isn’t as far along — or so I think, anyway — and its molten salt technology will probably go live in the early to mid 2030’s.

    120

    • #
      Graeme#4

      We currently waste around $7bn every year subsidising useless and unreliable renewables, when we could be funding one SMR every year for less.

      190

    • #

      If a small nuclear reactor power system can be built to power a nuclear submarine for 30 years with next to no or minimal maintenance and excellent safety record, then I am quite sure that SMRs can do the same.

      130

  • #
    rowjay

    noun
    GangGreen – localised decomposition of a power grid, resulting from obstructed transition policies due to political infection.

    gangGreen set in, and the power grid was compromised

    verb

    the power grid had gangGreened

    90

    • #
      rowjay

      Listening to Newsradio this morning, a Greens representative touted more renewables as the solution to the power grid issue, but never once mentioned batteries. Why don’t they fully embrace grid scale batteries?

      11

  • #
    Foyle

    A major problem is finding the highly skilled mid-late career professional labour willing to move to remote undesirable locations for years to build reactors. Used to be more viable with single working parents, but nowadays most highly skilled people having educated working partners and a couple of highly prized kids that they are very careful about educating as well as possible. So this is a nearly insurmountable problem. Only solution is to build reactors in a more desirable location near a major metropolitan area and then ship them to installation locations. Modular reactors built in factories (small) or shipyards (larger) are the only viable solution for the future. To me shipyards is the sensible solution, as siting larger reactors on or just off the coast with infinite cooling water and simplified end-of-life decommissioning is optimal.

    90

    • #
      Ross

      I’ve heard a lot about these modular nuclear reactors. When the British have a dozen of them online and they perform then maybe I’d be convinced. Otherwise, just stick with coal with upgrades that would get them up to Super critical or Ultra super critical. Isn’t that what the Chinese are doing?

      80

    • #
      Chad

      Foyle
      June 3, 2022 at 8:41 am · Reply
      A major problem is finding the highly skilled mid-late career professional labour willing to move to remote undesirable locations for years to build reactors

      Same applies to Solar and wind ( and hydro too), possibly more so ! (Offshore wind ?)
      In theory, SMRs could be “factory built” and installed close to major loads..cities, industry, etc.
      Much like they do with Gas Peaker plants, and rural diesel generators in the outback.

      50

    • #
      Beta Blocker

      A major feature of SMR technology is that it takes much of the highly skilled labor needed to fabricate the most QA-controlled components and places that labor inside a factory, as opposed to sending that labor out to each and every individual construction site.

      In a highly regulated nuclear power business environment, placing the most skilled labor resources inside a central factory where the knowledge and skills can be re-used for each new reactor module is a key element of keeping SMR capital costs under control.

      80

    • #
      RickWill

      Modern construction at remote sites is based on modularity. It is incorporated into the design. So modules are designed to be constructed in one location and shipped to the operating site. The transportability can be a significant factor in the design process.

      These concepts are widely used now. Structures built to transportable size with flanges for bolting together on site. Pipe bridges are built to transportable size with all pipes installed; structural flanges and pipe flanges connected for installation. Electrical substations are usually built in modules similar to truck containers with all switchgear installed – cabling requires site run.

      The Sydney Harbour tunnel was modular construction. Modules built down the coast in dry dock and floated to Sydney then sunk into location.

      There are very heavy lift vessels that can ship large assemblies of the order of 4000 tonne:
      https://boskalis.com/about-us/fleet-and-equipment/offshore-vessels/heavy-lift-vessels.html

      70

      • #
        Chad

        Offshore oil rigs are the classic example of modular factory build and assy, before being transported for remote installation.

        30

  • #
    exsteelworker

    Forget about reliable baseload power with the ALP in charge beholden to the Greens in the senate. Australia is going back to the future with 1970s style power outages. The next 3 years are going to be a disaster in this country.

    150

    • #
      Thomas A

      Agree. But don’t just blame the Greens. Most of the population thinks it’s necessary to do something about the climate. It’s become a cult. It’s going to be a hard sell to convince the population that more renewables will further disrupt an already teetering grid. Most Australians will feel betrayed if coal and gas derived electricity is refunded. Even a full scale grid blackout and weeks spent in a recovery might not be enough to sway firmly established beliefs.

      131

    • #
      RickWill

      The next 3 years are going to be a disaster in this country.

      You are neglecting the entertainment value. Charmers smirk is already turning to a frown. Bowen is already bumbling. Albenese still has the glow – or it it mesmerised look. He is yet to face of with Dutton – they could sell tickets to that.

      You pay good money to watch a circus like this – so do what you can to isolate yourself from the galloping inflation. Then sit back and enjoy the show.

      I am doing what I can to give my grandchildren a joy of maths and written comprehension and expression. Fuel their curiosity and they will not be lifetime skeptics.

      90

      • #
        RickWill

        Worth adding – be open to accepting the government largesse on offer. View it as a means of reducing the tax take.

        I expect that Australian householders will soon be offered double glazing, reverse cycle electric heaters, household batteries and heat pump hot water. There must be reliable versions of the latter somewhere but I do not think any are yet available in Australia.

        30

  • #
    Ross

    We don’t need nuclear power in Australia-all we need to do is upgrade our present fleet of coal fired power plants to better technology. That will make them more reliable, more efficient and most likely reduce CO2 emissions. Not that Australia’s CO2 emissions have any effect on world climate anyway. If the LNP cant make a decent argument about that last point and the effect of emissions reductions destroying the economy, then they should just leave politics. It they were really brave they would actually call out the whole AGW scam, but baby steps is best.

    121

    • #
      Chad

      Facts and the truth wont cut it against idealism & beliefs supported by selfish Politicians.
      Any politician , or scientist, who has attempted to argue the case has been marginalised, discredited, and often professionally destroyed.
      Everyone is protecting their own a55.

      51

      • #
        Ross

        Tony Abbott did it – he won an election for the LNP in a landslide with very simple messages about carbon and mining taxes etc. What Dutton needs to do is start some simple messaging, make it consistent and persistent. But his biggest problem (which has always been the case for the LNP) is not Labor or the Greens or those nice Teal ladies. It’s his own party. Too many “climatists”, too many bedwetters.

        111

        • #
          William

          The only good thing about the Teals is that they rid the Liberal Party of the climate bedwetters who have been championing alarmism and renewables. Dutton has fewer internal opponents should he decide to institute rational power policies that don’t include more ecocrucifixes and solar farms.

          One issue is the new Nats leader – Littleproud needs to follow the rational party members and not make the party lurch to the Green Left as that will mean rural seats will go.

          121

          • #
            GlenM

            No faith in Littleproud. It amazes me that Joyce gets dumped for holding all seats and picking up a Senate seat. Littleproud is a Nat lefty and useless as tits on a bull.

            90

            • #
              YallaYPoora Kid

              From his embracing of net zero this seems to be case. Very disappointing!

              40

            • #
              Tim

              Little to be proud of is more useless than tits on a bull. I live in his electorate and have questioned him on water, he has no idea.

              Its about time all members of parliament has to face their preselectors and be re affirmed at least 3 months before facing a new electoral term.

              By the way. Tits on a bull would make you a heap of money.

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          Terry

          Dutton is presented with an excellent opportunity. The “Teal” contingent has largely, if only temporarily, been removed from the party room and isolated on the cross-benches.

          It is time to use that majority wisely, by seeking out the remainder of the pseudo-Greens and “encouraging” them to redeploy to their natural habitat, the Teals.

          Dutton’s path to the lodge is through the suburbs, regions, farms, and mining towns; not the urban set occupied by the sanctimonious chattering classes.

          Further, if elected by a mandate of the productive class, he must attend to the necessary “downsizing” of the chattering classes from their taxpayer-funded sinecures.

          Too many are being allowed to vote for their own largesse, effectively stealing from the very taxpayers they choose to lecture on how they should live their lives.

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          Chad

          Ross
          June 3, 2022 at 10:07 am · Reply
          Tony Abbott did it – he won an election for the LNP in a landslide with very simple messages about carbon and mining taxes etc.

          He won the election, but he failed to progress against the AGW movement.
          ..and look what has happened to him since !

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            Ian

            “He won the election, but he failed to progress against the AGW movement.
            ..and look what has happened to him since !”

            Nothing of the kind. Just prior to the election Abbott made many promises most of which were broken in the 2015 budget. That was what caused his political demise not AGW

            This is what The Australian wrote at the time

            “Abbott is running a losing proposition on promises. His problem is the power of television — the clip of Abbott saying the night before the election: “No cuts to education, no cuts to health, no change to pensions, no change to the GST and no cuts to the ABC or SBS.” This may become the most played clip of Abbott. For his critics it constitutes the clinching evidence: Abbott is not to be trusted.”

            https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/opinion/tony-abbott-can-win-the-core-argument-by-cleaning-the-slate-on-promises/news-story/5b55993ccc8bc4672d27fe7a81a24914

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              Ian

              Apologies that should read 2014 budget

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              Chad

              Ian
              June 3, 2022 at 3:42 pm · Reply
              “He won the election, but he failed to progress against the AGW movement.
              ..and look what has happened to him since !”

              Nothing of the kind.

              Sorry, but Abbot lost his warringa seat to an climate activist.
              That is what ended his political carrer

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              b.nice

              Health
              ““There was a national partnerships agreement which the Labor party hadn’t funded on [hospital] beds and we have decided not to renew it, but this is a Labor cut, it is not a Coalition cut,”

              “For the next three years hospital funding increases … and then in the fourth year commonwealth funding will increase by 6%, so we aren’t cutting funding, we are increasing funding … all we are not doing is not agreeing to the pie-in-the-sky funding promised by Labor,”

              The Liberals got left with a whole raft of UNFUNDED LABOR PROMISES.. so no, they were not cuts. !

              Education
              “The Government did not cut $30 billion from schools in the May budget. The $30 billion figure is calculated over a 10 year period starting in 2017. It adds up the difference between the increase in funding that Labor says it would have delivered and the increase the Government may deliver. There is too much uncertainty for such a long-term estimate to be reliable measure of either cuts or savings. “

              Pensions
              “Bill Shorten accuses him of “cutting” or “ripping off” pensions, Abbott responds, quite correctly, that pensions will continue to increase every six months, imploring Labor to just have the decency to tell the truth.[good luck with that, never going to happen.]
              Aged, disability and carer pensions will from 2017 continue to increase. But they will increase by the consumer price index (CPI) – in other words inflation “

              ABC.. He should have cut by 50% at least ! It just bloated leftist propaganda funded by the taxpayer..

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    another ian

    Now amazing what they are trying to do

    “JPMorgan Chase CEO Warns to Prepare for Economic Hurricane as Biden Administration Switches U.S. Economy to Green New Deal Agenda
    June 2, 2022 | sundance | 164 Comments”

    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2022/06/02/jpmorgan-chase-ceo-warns-to-prepare-for-economic-hurricane-as-biden-administration-switches-u-s-economy-to-green-new-deal-agenda/

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      another ian

      The Pol Pot model must work if we just apply it properly?

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        Zane

        Pol Pot instituted Year Zero in Cambodia. Zero. Does that word remind you of anything? Maybe put a ” net ” in front of it. Pol Pot also abolished money. Another guy is now saying ” You’ll own nothing and you will be happy “.

        History rhymes, as they say.

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    That UMPNER Report that Ziggy Switkowski led sank without trace, which was the real pity. An actual beginning of having the debate on Nuclear Power Generation, and it just went straight into the bin.

    There was an amazing image in that Report, which I trawled right through, as it made all of the touch points required. (just had that unfortunate scare word attached to it ….. Nuclear!)

    That image was of what a new generation Nuclear power plant might look like.

    Here IS that image from the UMPNER Report.

    Next Generation Nuclear Power Plant

    Tony.

    PostScript – Huh, Nuclear the scare word boogeymen, oh, unless it’s Nuclear Medicine, then it’s suddenly all okay.

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    DLK

    renewabes can’t provide baseload power.
    so the solution to the energy crisis is… more renewables!!!
    because no one needs power when the wind is not blowing or the sun is not shining.

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    Zane

    Nuclear power is not cheap. That is why new GAS generators will be built: CCGT. Yes, HELE coal makes more economic sense. But for over twenty years the oil & gas lobby – Exxon, Shell, BP, Total, even Enron (back in the day), Qatar, and Russia – tirelessly supported the environmental movement to trash coal. Because they want to sell natural gas. Unfortunately it worked. Most people think coal is ” dirty ” energy. Gas, being colorless, doesn’t suffer this handicap.

    ALP is pretty much run by the CFMEU. They will relish some new multi-billion dollar construction projects for LNG terminals and adjacent CCGT power plants. It’s how they roll.

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      el+gordo

      Up Narrabri way Santos is going to fast track the gas.

      ‘Santos CEO Kevin Gallagher says the oil and gas producer cannot “conjure up” gas magically to ease the energy shortage that has slammed the eastern states, and warns that emergency moves to divert gas destined for export from Gladstone to the domestic market would be damaging if maintained.

      ‘Mr Gallagher said Santos was doing what it could to accelerate the development of its controversial Narrabri coal seam gas project in NSW, but even in the best scenario, gas would flow only in 2025, rather than 2026.’ (AFR)

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    PeterS

    The madness keeps going on…
    Another nuclear plant closes: Get ready for electricity shortages
    Apart from that obvious point, it will also lead to more not less CO2 emissions.

    There’s no doubt that the plant’s closure will result in more greenhouse gas emissions. When nuclear plants close in the United States, they are replaced by gas-fired generation. That happened in New York after the closure of the Indian Point Energy Center, and in Vermont after the premature shuttering of Vermont Yankee. The closure of such plans increases electricity costs because generators must burn more natural gas to produce power and gas prices are soaring.

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    Furiously+Curious

    In his recent lecture Ian Plimer mentioned having worked for the Red Hill mine when they were setting up. He said 4950 permits were required.

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    Geoff Sherrington

    Are we completely without a technical class in Australia?
    I think not, but they have gone quiet and scaredy cat.
    If I was still of working age, I would be promoting the obvious to the public.
    1. It is obvious that global climate change is nowhere near as serious as advertised. So advertise the moderate, known points.
    2. It is obvious that Australia can do very little to affect c.c. even any parts that are a nuisance. So, tell the world we are going our own Sovereign way.
    3. Currently, global directions are coming from bankers and stock market players. Therefore, form a technical / scientific body in Australia to divine the essentials to underpin policy.
    4. Vested interests have threatened Australian proposals to do what our citizens want. We need to tell them to go jump, we have large resources that they need so we call the shots.
    5. Many voters are confused by simple, wrong ideas about c.c. and what to back. So, tell the whole, real story from government and not authored by semi-informed reporters like the ABC.
    6. Poll the voters about what they would fear from Australia going it alone. Give them time to adjust to predictable international abuse, then poll again. And again. Then legislate when a clear voter preference emerges.
    ,…….
    Much more could be added. It is vital to make a start now because the cost of delay and more renewables is huge, even catastrophic.
    This is what the Libs should be doing. Labour will do what unions dictate. Greens can do what they have long done, look stupid and work to look even more so. Teals? Maybe form a knitting club so they can discuss common interests from their strong knowledge base.
    Geoff S

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      Geoff mentions this:

      Are we completely without a technical class in Australia?

      Technical class Huh!

      More likely the Primary school arithmetically challenged class!

      It seems that no one can provide an answer for the simple two plus two.

      Have you heard these people lately, and they say it in the one single statement, where the Minister said this:

      Power is expensive at the moment because so many coal fired PLANTS are off line.

      (and they are so clueless that they refer to them as ….. PLANTS and not Units, or that was what was written on the Ministers briefing notes, for when that Union affiliated journalist asked that specifically texted question)

      So let me see here, umm, using that two plus two principle.

      So, if ….. IF those coal fired units WERE on line, then power would be a lot cheaper.

      Surely that can’t be right.

      Surely!

      Tony.

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        Ronin

        Would you expect the brothel burglar or ‘binfire’ Bowen to know the difference between a plant and a unit.

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    Zane

    ” Climate change proves pivotal in Aussie polls ” says Singapore’s New Straits Times. A statement which, when analysed, doesn’t really make a whole load of sense!

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    Zigmaster

    The crazy thing is that even with the fact that the nuclear plants are now almost 50 years old and weren’t set up to operate as efficiently as expected France has the second cheapest electricity in Europe and export of power to other countries earns billions in extra income.
    The fact that the Finnish greens are now pushing nuclear highlights that Australia’s energy policy belongs to the Neanderthals and the consequences of this failure by the Libs in government not only caused their defeat but inflicted this energy insanity on all of us.

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    Zane

    I think something might be about to go down in China. Foreigners are being strongly ” encouraged ” to leave. What’s Xi Jinping planning? Is he going to do a Putin?

    Time will tell.

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    Ronin

    One thing France did right was to select a good reliable design of PWR nuke and build a fleet of them all the same, a bit like when Qantas knew how to run an airline and had an all 747 fleet, best unit for the job, all the same, same training, and interchangeablity of crew and spares.

    Unlike Ansett who worked on the ‘Noahs Ark’ principle, two of everything.

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