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The first Synthetic Pandemic? Man who discovered HIV says Coronavirus is man made. CCP destroyed the evidence.

For months there have been rumors that Coronavirus leaked from a Chinese lab. The only P4 (high security lab) in China happens to be in Wuhan, near the fish markets and people there happen to be working on synthetic coronaviruses with S proteins that happen to infect ACE2 receptors in humans. But if Mother Nature wanted to generate her own viruses, it’s hard to beat wet markets in high density Chinese hubs. And there were papers too saying the gene analysis, etc, fitted 96% with the bat-pangolin-human story.

But now we find, long before the CCP was asking for sympathy, authorities were asking the staff to destroy all those lab viruses:

“Existing virus samples must be destroyed. Information about the samples, related  papers and related data are all prohibited from release. “

 Hubei Health committee on Jan 1st. (See the Epoch Times Documentary below).

And told the staff to say nothing to anyone, anywhere, anytime, ever:

“Notice regarding the strict prohibition of disclosure of any information related to the Wuhan unknown pneumonia.

National Health Commission clearly mandates that all detection, empirical data, results and conclusions related to this outbreak cannot be published on self-media or social media, nor disclosed to any media (including state media) or collaborative organization s (including any technical services companies).” 30 minute mark.

  — Email from  The Director General of the Wuhan Institute, Jan 2nd, 2020

So the Wuhan lab was ordered to destroy all their synthetic Coronaviruses on Jan 1st. Which is a strange thing to do if a similar, but different virus was evolving in the Fish Market around the corner. But it’s the obvious thing to do if a careless lab member made a mistake and leaked it from the lab. Especially if those viruses had distinctive HIV sequences embedded in them. Which the man who discovered HIV says they do.

Nobel prize winner Prof Montagnier says that to insert HIV sequences “can only be done in a lab”:

Dr Luc Montagnier the man who discovered the HIV virus back in 1983 disagrees and is saying that the virus was man made.

According to Professor Luc Montagnier, winner of the Nobel Prize for Medicine in 2008 for “discovering” HIV as the cause of the AIDS epidemic together with Françoise Barré-Sinoussi, the SARS-CoV-2 is a virus that was manipulated and accidentally released from a laboratory in Wuhan, China, in the last quarter of 2019.

“With my colleague, bio-mathematician Jean-Claude Perez, we carefully analyzed the description of the genome of this RNA virus,” explains Luc Montagnier, interviewed by Dr Jean-François Lemoine for the daily podcast at Pourquoi Docteur, adding that others have already explored this avenue: Indian researchers have already tried to publish the results of the analyses that showed that this coronavirus genome contained sequences of another virus, … the HIV virus (AIDS virus), but they were forced to withdraw their findings as the pressure from the mainstream was too great. –  The podcast is in French

Worth watching: The Epoch Times Documentary on the Origin of CCP Virus (Coronavirus).

The Epoch Times are an organization of dissident reporters, staunchly anti-communist.  They interview medical and political experts and we also find out the Chinese lab was set up with some US funds and with a lot of French support.  Obama cut off funds in 2014. But the West has made it as easy as possible, offering help, expertise, and training.


Patient zero may have been a scientist at the P4 virus lab in Wuhan called Huang Yanling who unfortunately died. The Director of the Lab, Dr Shi Zengli — was the person who isolated a virus from bats that has the key S Protein spike that enables a bat virus to get inside human ACE2 cells. In February, after her institute had “nothing to do with the outbreak” she was sacked, presumably because she did such a good job. Her replacement was Major General Chen Wei. It’s interesting to know when the military are doing the microbiology?  (h/t JanEarth)

Steven Mosher argues that leaks have happened before in China; that Xi suddenly improved biosecurity in labs on the 14th of February, and some researchers have even been caught selling lab animals to wet markets:

Some Chinese researchers are in the habit of selling their laboratory animals to street vendors after they have finished experimenting on them. You heard me right.

Instead of properly disposing of infected animals by cremation, as the law requires, they sell them on the side to make a little extra cash. Or, in some cases, a lot of extra cash. One Beijing researcher, now in jail, made a million dollars selling his monkeys and rats on the live animal market, where they eventually wound up in someone’s stomach.

According to Mosher, in mid February President Xi decided China needed “A national system to control biosecurity risks” … “to protect the people’s health,” Xi said, because lab safety is a “national security” issue. 

Professor Richard Ebright of Rutgers University’s Waksman Institute of Microbiology, a biosecurity expert — thinks it was an accidental leak too.  He says the Nature paper claiming SARS Cov-2 is natural has to rely on a bunch of assumptions:

…  points out that scientists in Wuhan have collected and publicized a bat coronavirus called RaTG13, one that is  96 percent genetically similar to SARS-CoV-2. The Nature Medicine authors are arguing “against the hypothesis that the published, lab-collected, lab-stored bat coronavirus RaTG13 could be a proximal progenitor of the outbreak virus.” But, Ebright says, the authors relied on assumptions about when the viral ancestor of SARS-CoV-2 jumped to humans; how fast it evolved before that; how fast it evolved as it adapted to humans; and the possibility that that the virus may have mutated in cell cultures or experimental animals inside a lab.

Obviously there will be a lot more to say about this. Especially because Donald Trump says he will look very closely at whether Coronavirus came from the Wuhan lab.

It’s officially denied:

Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian said on Thursday: “I want to remind you that the head of the World Health Organisation has stated many times that there is no evidence that the new coronavirus was produced in the laboratory. Many well-known experts in the world also believe that there is no scientific basis for such claims as laboratory leaks.”

“We stand together to strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that Covid-19 does not have a natural origin,” a team of 27 scientists from outside China said in a statement in the Lancet medical journal in February.

“Conspiracy theories do nothing but create fear, rumours, and prejudice that jeopardise our global collaboration in the fight against this virus,” they said, adding that scientists from around the world overwhelmingly conclude that the coronavirus originated in wildlife.

Looks like a “Consensus” then, and Scientists-Against-Trump have spoken. It would be better if they could have debated it out so we could hear both sides. There are quite a few papers that at a glance make a solid case for the natural evolution of the virus. Eg Zhou et al 2020, and Prof Lu et al.  But instead the scientists have flipped straight into lectures about how only bad prejudiced people would ask these questions.

People inside China and out of it are going to get very angry if they don’t get some good answers.

h/t Lance, WXcycles, JanEarth OriginalSteve, many others.

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The first Synthetic Pandemic? Man who discovered HIV says Coronavirus is man made. CCP destroyed the evidence., 9.7 out of 10 based on 96 ratings

372 comments to The first Synthetic Pandemic? Man who discovered HIV says Coronavirus is man made. CCP destroyed the evidence.

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    Not much point in getting angry when you just voluntarily locked yourself down and downloaded the government virus tracking app.
    I will be heading to my local war memorial this anzac day with the last post cued on my phone, social distancing, saying thanks for my freedom.
    Arrest me.
    I dare them.

    482

    • #
      Geoff Croker

      China will be stockpiling essential material. Iron ore, coking coal, oil.

      The only remaining question is a CDC spread analysis of the initiation. Was this an act of war or yet more government stupidity?

      310

      • #
        PeterS

        Yes it’s becoming clearer by the day that it has to be one of those two causes of the virus outbreak. Either way, China must now come clean and work with the rest of the world to get to the bottom of all this and prevent it from happening again. The current arrogances displayed by China (and the WHO) are damning and must be tackled head on. Otherwise, the next pandemic might very well be much worse leading to millions of deaths. This is imperative and anyone who stands in the way of making sure China changes their behaviour, such as much of the MSM and other Trump haters, must be treated as advocates of a communist dictatorship in their own country, and hence an enemy of the state.

        391

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          “Otherwise the next pandemic”… I suspect that this was a stuff up by the Chinese lab staff in Wuhan..

          But now that this stuff up has happened, other ‘actors’ ( nations & non state groups ) are watching.
          I think it is inevitable that there will be future pandemics used as part of the symptomatic warfare strategy on Western countries.

          And for Australia that means that everyone coming into Australia MUST be screened for infectious viral diseases.
          The globally connected world now poses massive risks.
          It has to be significantly changed to eliminate these risks.

          211

          • #
            PeterS

            I have no problem with such screening although it’s not that simple. I don’t think it would be possible with existing technology and our understanding of viruses to be able to detect with absolute certainty if a person has a particular virus and do it in a matter of minutes, which is what would be required for screening at all our ports of entry. If enough research and development was put into it I’m sure we could come up with such a test but it could takes many years.

            111

            • #
              Bill In Oz

              Better that the testing take place
              At departure for Australia Peter.
              That would have the good effect of suppressing
              Such man made pandemic diseases at source.

              113

              • #
                Geoff Sherrington

                What Bill said. Geoff S

                60

              • #
                Geoff Sherrington

                What Bill said. Geoff S

                10

              • #

                It’s not possible to screen for malicious tourists that carry a new virus packaged in capsules concealed to look like painkillers.

                We had warnings, we saw what was happening in China, it was all over Twitter. We could have stopped it. Medical advisors and PM/Presidents dropped the bell on this one, but lesson learned — natural or accidental outbreaks will in future lead to international borders being slammed shut ASAP.

                Our only defence against malicious terrorists with bioweapons is to be one step ahead of them with biotech. That’s why we should immediately dump subsidies for useless uncompetitive “fashion” items like renewables and pour that money into medical research instead. (Or give it back to the taxpayers who earnt it who can invest it in the best biotech there is).

                As a spin off, we will get rich and healthier treating conditions we currently have.

                We have to master the programming of living things, the RNA and DNA, CRISPR edits, epigenetics.

                We have to work much harder to understand our own immune systems.

                473

          • #
            Bill In Oz

            The CCP ordered that the Lab destroy
            All the evidence of this stuff up at the Wuhan Lab
            But the CCP did not destroy
            The capacity to do similar ‘research in the future.
            And the CCP has it’s allies elsewhere on the globe
            With their own agendas
            For example North Korea & Iran.
            And then there are the ‘non state actors’,
            Terrorists groups for whom this will be seen
            As a new tactic against their enemies.

            161

            • #
              DOC

              Re JO.
              It seems our own immune systems are killing us. The poor old virus just wants to
              replicate. Evidently, steroids in large doses which ameliorate autoimmune diseases,
              are ineffective here. As you say, we need to learn more about those systems. It
              would seem the older we get, the less we are able to sweep up the virus by cells and
              antibodies. We really need immunity controls, like a light dimmer; turn it on, turn it off and everything in between. I gather getting vaccines for all forms of corona viruses
              is extremely difficult.

              41

        • #
          justjoshin

          China come clean? Better chance of my dog farting his way out of the Earth’s gravity well. Not a real risk unless he finds a bowl of refried beans. We keep a VERY close watch on the beans these days.

          00

      • #
        Alessandro

        I don’t think they are mutually exclusive.

        61

      • #
        • #
          sophocles

          There’s nothing (nil, zero, zilch, none) on any of the lists of the ICJ so it’s either:
          - too soon
          - irrelevant (not filed nor likely to be filed.)

          I won’t toss the link, and I will keep an eye on the court’s lists …

          20

    • #
      Alessandro

      I too will be there, maybe not “there” but here at dawn on 25th.

      70

    • #
      Yonniestone

      I’ll be doing exactly the same Travis, people have been getting angry with the disproportionate heavy handed and unlawful behaviour of Victoria Police well now they might get a clue of what tyranny has been occurring with the separation of powers and its directives from Spring St, I have come to expect the worst and are seldom disappointed.

      200

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Zero new cases today of COVID 19 Wuhan Flu is SA !
      Elimination of this foreign virus is working !

      Am I happy ? Certainly.

      It is also an example of what other states & countries can do.

      But an estimated 1000 Australians are flying in to Adelaide Airport
      Tomorrow from other countries as part of the government’s program of getting Aussies home..
      And it’s almost certain that more COVID cases will be discovered among those returning travellers.
      So into lockup quarantine in a hotel in Adelaide for two week sis their fate.
      To ensure we stay free of this vile bit of RNA chemistry.

      60

      • #
        JanEarth

        Hi Bill
        Yes good news for SA. I don’t know if I am wierd but I am enjoying the lockdown. Our tame crow certainly is reaping the benefits she has had so much dog food her coat is glossy as. No dog we buy the dog biscuits for her and her fella.The local maggies also pop in for a feed when crow lets them. Quo is a little raven and I befriended her in 2008 during my extended leave from work due to my cancer treatment. I love watching the faces of the neighbours when they walk past and see me sitting on the porch with the crow standing next to me while I talk to her.I know I am totally nuts.

        Not sure how long SA can keep this up but I am grateful to all South Aussies for doing the right thing especially the millenials who are really stepping up to the plate. All bodes well for us crusty old curmudgeons.
        Be safe all.

        60

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          Nice to be able to show the world
          How good we here in SA
          Can deal with this foreign virus Jan.
          WE have magpies that allow us to live in their territory
          And never bother us at nesting time.
          But they never eat any food from us.
          The garden & paddocks provide lots of beetles, grubs and worms.
          Part of my garden fronts onto the road.
          Now there are lots of folk exercising by walking past
          And most say hello !

          10

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          I’m confused. Someone who comes across as a “Beast” but is able to relate to a crow can’t be as bad as she makes out.

          Jane , I took offense at your earlier unpleasant comment and the associated “male boomer” put down that went with it.

          You described how you had been enraged by said “boomer/male” and described being in possession of “residual rage” from witnessing the event. It seemed that I was the next available target.

          Abusing people here on the blog might be something that isn’t of long term benefit.

          KK

          10

  • #
    Ian Hill

    Typo in subheading “Nobel price winner …”

    Please remove this reply after fixing.

    50

  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    Those evil Chinese, Cubans, Russians, Vietnamese,…

    It is hubris of the highest order to place the workings of man over those of nature

    437

    • #
      RickWill

      Those evil UN, EU, IPCC, ……

      It is hubris of the highest order to place workings of man over those of nature

      To think man could actually change global climate – the greatest conspiracy theory of our time.

      420

      • #

        I’m tempted to disagree that CAGW is the greatest conspiracy of all time, but I can’t find anything that comes close. I have a good candidate for second place, but I won’t mention that here, as it’s risking going outside the site’s remit.

        60

    • #
      AndyG55

      Yawn.

      There is no evidence of humans affecting global climate, if that is what you are trying to apply.

      So arrogant of the so-called “climate scientists” to think that we can alter the global climate by reducing CO2 emissions…

      … when the only proven effect is CO2′s ability to enhance plant life.

      361

    • #

      Is there two Peter Fitzroy’s. I’ve noticed that he has two different icons.

      There’s either two of him, or he doesn’t know how to use a computer. (and that would explain a few things)

      Either way, Fitzroy, if China is so good, I guess you’ll be relocating there soon then, eh! Pining for that Communist control eh!

      Tony.

      280

    • #
      Yonniestone

      So if I were to be shot with a gun that used the technology of metallurgy, chemistry, industry and invention do I blame man or nature?

      60

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Peter, what is the point of your comment ?
      There is evidence that this Chinese Biological lab in Wuhan stuffed up big time.
      That is not evil as such.
      But to conceal the stuff up, let the disease run for over 6 weeks,
      And try to destroy the evidence of the stuff up,
      Is EVIL.
      As for Russia, Vietnam & Cuba, they are like the rest of us
      Innocent bystanders in the line of attack by this infectious disease.

      Do you really intend to be a pro [CCP]troll here ?
      Is that your real purpose ?
      I hope not.

      [ Reminder to all, the Chinese people have no real say in what goes on with the doings of the Chinese Communist Party so be careful how you word your comments --AD.]

      71

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        I accept that moderation perspective.
        In fact I agree with you.
        My bad.
        The CCP is not China.
        Apologies.

        62

      • #
        TedM

        Don’t forget that after the CCP shut down Wuhan, they still allowed flights out of that city (but not into other parts of the province) to all parts of the world for another 4 days. I find it difficult not to read intent into that.

        151

    • #
      Damo

      When was the last global crisis? That’s right WW2! Was that human caused or natural? What about the “Climate Crisis” when the planet overheated due to too much CO2? Oh that’s right, there wasn’t one!

      123

      • #
        TedM

        “What about the “Climate Crisis” when the planet overheated due to too much CO2? Oh that’s right, there wasn’t one!” Ten out of ten for that sentence Damo.

        111

    • #
      Crakar24

      Pete just got paid some Yuans so the propaganda cranks up again

      60

    • #
      Peter Fitzroy

      It’s much easier to assign blame, or format a conspiracy than it is to accept that we do not have dominion over nature.

      Firstly, this virus is in the same group as those which cause the flu.
      Secondly, given SARS, MERS, Ebola etc, another natural but lethal variation was only a matter of time

      016

      • #
        Crakar24

        True to some extent pete but you cannot simply dismiss evidence to the contrary, the existance of labs alone create the possibility this virus was home grown.

        Must be a nice change for you in that you can now debate reality as opposed to the imaginary

        80

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        What you sau is true Peter
        But Irrelevant in this discussion.
        Do try to stay on topic.
        Red Thumb !

        22

      • #

        Uh uh Peter,

        Secondly, given SARS, MERS, Ebola etc, another natural but lethal variation was only a matter of time

        Mustn’t use those racist terms. You told us that yourself.

        (I guess you still haven’t found their non racist names on the Internet yet)

        Tony.

        80

        • #
          Peter Fitzroy

          Ebola is also known to scientists as the RESTON Virus. – you can look these up yourself, once you finish your community college course on ‘how to use search engines’

          09

          • #
            Curious George

            I used a search engine per your suggestion. “Reston virus (RESTV) is one of six known viruses within the genus Ebolavirus. Reston virus causes Ebola virus disease in non-human primates; unlike the other five ebolaviruses, it is not known to cause disease in humans, but has caused asymptomatic infections.”

            Peter, you must have a PhD from Saint Greta Friday university.

            40

      • #
        sophocles

        Four!

        20

      • #
        AndyG55

        Ignorance of the gene splicing?

        But why comment and continue to display that ignorance.

        Ignorance of science is what all your comments seem to be based on.

        Why do you choose to remain ignorant?

        60

      • #
        Kalm Keith

        But we do have;

        “Dominion over Palm and Pine.”

        LGOHBWUYLWFLWF.

        00

      • #
        Kalm Keith

        “was only a matter of time”

        And time goes by
        So slowly
        And time can do so much
        Are you……

        Sorry, I got carried away there Peter.

        10

    • #
      FarmerDoug2

      Farmers have been manipulating nature a while.

      31

    • #
      Reed Coray

      Peter, if “It is hubris of the highest order to place the workings of man over those of nature,” then what “order of hubris” is it to say man controls the climate?

      60

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        that is my point, Reed.

        08

        • #
          el gordo

          Happy to hear you have finally accepted that CO2 doesn’t cause global warming.

          If the Institute is found to be negligent, then the rest of the world deserves reparations. Six trillion dollars is a lot of money, do you think Xi will cough up?

          60

        • #
          AndyG55

          “that is my point”.

          So you finally admit that it totally arrogance of the behalf of self-named “climate scientists” to say that human CO2 controls the global climate.

          Finally you see the light?

          Or was that just an accidental comment?

          40

          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            Asinine comment of the day. One one hand – humans caused corona, on the other, humans did not cause climate change – you have no evidence to back either claim, just half baked assertions

            07

            • #
              robert rosicka

              Peter there is a difference to being man made and Mann made !

              60

            • #
              AndyG55

              “Asinine comment of the day.”

              Stop self-titling your comments.

              I makes you look like even more of a fool. !

              Plenty of evidence that humans helped transfer the virus from it original host.

              Plenty of evidence the Chinese hid that fact.

              ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that human CO2 effects the climate. You have proven that.

              30

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          I’m confused.

          How can a Blob have a Point?

          Aren’t blobs just mush?

          20

    • #
      Environment Skeptic

      Clever way of achieving herd immunity if i do say so myself. By creating more than one Peter Fitzroy, any afflictions you may acquire on this thread are countered since now you are a herd of Peter Fitzroy’s thus demonstrating the efficacy and the inner workings of herd immunity theory…brilliant!

      31

      • #
        AndyG55

        Not sure “herd of” is the correct term for multiple Fitzroys

        a “gaggle of”, a “[snip] of”, a “drone of”, an “infection of” …

        [ Play nice .] AD

        31

        • #
          TedM

          A “pandemic of”?

          41

          • #
            Environment Skeptic

            A herd pandemic otherwise known as a pandemic of herds….that heard something more than once. it is critical that it is heard more than once from a different heard member, …. For example, if a heard member heard something from doctor karl, and heard the same from doctor phil…then the listener is convinced it is so and could not be otherwise.

            30

    • #
      JanEarth

      Hi Peter F

      It is hubris of the highest order to place the workings of man over those of nature

      On that we agree Peter
      We are reeling from a tiny virus…when the Sun hits us with a CME the likes of which ends civilizations then we will truly know how insignificant we really are. We discount the power of that which gives life to all of us…as witnessed by the abject failure of climate science to properly account for Solar forcing. There is a whole book that can be written on that subject.
      Cheers… be safe

      30

  • #
  • #
    Carl

    It could be that the virus has infected 75 times as many people asymptomatically as have been reported with symptoms. I think we’re looking at an hysterical overreaction that’s doing more harm than the virus. Please see
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/04/17/covid-19-antibody-seroprevalence-in-santa-clara-county-california-coronavirus/

    Morrison is now saying a phone app to track our movements might be mandatory.

    I think the virus escaped from the Wuhan research lab, but the economic ruin is our own doing.

    151

    • #
      Plain Jane

      To make tracking mandatory,the government would also have to make Smartphone ownership mandatory. Then it would have to make vast areas of the country that currently do not have mobile phone coverage part of the network. Then it might have to provide “poor” people with a phone. There are still plenty of us out here who couldn’t have a phone that is useable even if we wanted one. I am not saying they would not try to, or want to. Usual statists wet dream is to control everything for everyone. People always clamour for more state control to fix the problems caused by too much state control.

      220

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Candy bar phone for me.

        Oh dear, left it at home…..

        And oh dear, it had bluetooth accidentally turned off.

        Bluetooth is 2.45Ghz …..like wifi….what bluetooth signal?

        So many ways to stop it.

        I believe in China it is *illegal*( to not carry your State mandated snitch device…er…smartphone with you.

        This is a N W O stitch up.

        50

        • #
          sophocles

          If my govt would supply me with a Smart Phone and put their app on it, all free of charge for me, I can still see two major problems:

          – where is the %&*#-ing thing?
          – where is the %&*#-ing thing’s battery charger?

          (Is this far enough off topic for you Bill?)

          30

      • #
        JanEarth

        Hi Jane

        Google makes billions from our data…yet we pay them for their phones

        10

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Any chance of staying on topic Carl ?

      48

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        I’ll be handing out red thumbs
        To all who are off topic
        Pushing their own barrows here.
        The issue of man made pandemics is important
        To be lost in grumpiness about a bloody phone ap.

        616

    • #
      TedM

      That there are numerous and widespread asymptomatic cases without a commensurate number of symptomatic cases seems unlikely to me.

      I think WX… made a similar comment on a previous thread when this was raised.

      40

      • #
        Sceptical Sam

        Ted,

        I’m not sure that it’s as simple as asymptomatic vs symptomatic cases. Perhaps known vs unknown might be more insightful.

        You might want to preview this yet to be peer reviewed preprint which concludes as follows:

        Conclusions
        The population prevalence of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in Santa Clara County implies that the infection is much more widespread than indicated by the number of confirmed cases. Population prevalence estimates can now be used to calibrate epidemic and mortality projections.

        https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1.full.pdf+html

        01

        • #
          TedM

          It may not be as simple as that SS but it’s the measure and terminology that is used by those who want to debunk any significant threat from the virus. Has nothing to do with Santa Clara County.

          10

          • #
            Sceptical Sam

            That’s what the Santa Clara data is showing. It supports your (and my) contention.

            We’re not at cross purposes on this.

            10

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          From the abstract
          “Participants were recruited using Facebook ads targeting a representative sample of the county by demographic and geographic characteristics.”

          Ummmm how many folks do you know without any Facebook
          I know a lot.

          That’s a whole cohort of people automatically excluded – right off the bat.

          10

    • #
      Crakar24

      To morrison wrt phone app….GFY

      40

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      It ‘could be’ that the virus has infected yeast cell lines
      Used to make beer & wine.
      Thus we are all fated to become very drunk Wuhan Flu victims.
      SARC !

      10

  • #
    mikewaite

    Is carl correct in saying that your PM is going to make tracking of private citizens mandatory,
    and is it true that the Govt is continuing to strangle the Autralian economy to the point of death
    even though in the last 7 days you have had only 300 new cases and 11 deaths from coronavirus.

    81

    • #
      el gordo

      There won’t be mandatory tracking, that would be illegal, the idea is to end restrictions earlier to avoid economic meltdown.

      ‘Both Italy and New York record a stabilisation in the spread of the coronavirus but no substantial declines, leading to questions about the viability of enduring lockdowns.’ SMH

      61

      • #

        Mandatory if not enough people sign ip

        https://www.sbs.com.au/news/coronavirus-mobile-tracking-app-may-be-mandatory-if-not-enough-people-sign-up-scott-morrison-says

        Surely the west is not going to destroy its freedoms in tandem with its economy? . Surely Australians won’t put up with this vast over reaction.?

        231

        • #
          el gordo

          Most people will gladly sign up for the common good and risk their freedoms. All those very old people who don’t have mobiles and should stay in lockdown forever.

          This war against an invisible enemy will be over by Xmas.

          ‘South Korea’s top coronavirus expert said the time frame for effective Covid-19 treatment may be much shorter than what is needed to develop a vaccine, and singled out Gilead Sciences’ remdesivir as a hopeful candidate.’

          South China Morning Post

          54

          • #
            OriginalSteve

            Gollead is controlled i believe by Bush era Donald Rumsfeld…or was…..funny how the N W O flunkies keep turning up…

            If its N W O linked ( like Bhamphomet Bill ) it would be sensible to avoid the vaccine like…er…the plague….yoyve been warned.

            40

        • #
          OriginalSteve

          Bluetooth is 2.45 ghz frequency.

          Many things can interfere with 2.45 ghz.

          I doubt it will work.

          I believe bluetooth mac addreses can be spoofed as well…..

          30

        • #
          OriginalSteve

          Reminds me of the tax file number “offer” by the govt…..quote it or lose 50% of your money…

          40% sign up or ……else…

          Mafioso….

          31

      • #
        PeterS

        You are so naive. Of course our government can make it mandatory if they so desire. They have placed a variety of mandatory restrictions as a result of the pandemic so what’s one more?

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        • #
          el gordo

          This is political science 101, the great majority of young people will happily sign up and the mandatory option won’t be necessary. If I’m wrong, then all you have to do is throw away your mobile.

          82

          • #
            PeterS

            No need to throw it away. Just install the app and leave it at home. They can make it mandatory to have the app but they can’t make it mandatory to have the phone on you at all times. If they did that then they would be stepping over the line. Even if they did that then you can throw it away.

            82

            • #
              OriginalSteve

              And yet…..

              https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/04/14/michigan-massive-protest-planned-on-wednesday-angry-residents-to-swarm-capitol-in-operation-gridlock/

              “Residents of Michigan, angry about what they see as overbearing executive orders by Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, have a planned a massive protest around the state capitol on Wednesday.

              “The Michigan Conservative Coalition has organized “Operation Gridlock,” which will likely see protesters in their cars, honking horns, and clogging streets.

              ““Everyone, every citizen, every business owner needs to get out of their house, out of their chair, and get in their car, or truck, or anything that is legal to drive on taxpayer funded roads,” the group said.

              “Gov. Whitmer accused the DeVos family of being behind the protest, an accusation a family spokesman denied.

              “Whitmer said on Monday, Fox 17 reported.

              “I also would just say, I think it is this group is funded in large part by the DeVos family and I think it’s really inappropriate for a sitting member of the United States president’s cabinet to be waging political attacks on any governor, but obviously on me here at home.

              “I think that they should disavow it and encourage people to stay home and be safe.

              ““Contrary to the governor’s statements, the DeVos family hasn’t spent a dime on this protest nor has it offered prior support to the organizing entity,” Nick Wasmiller responded.

              ““The DeVos family, however, understand the frustration of fellow Michiganders as elements of the governor’s top-down approach appear to go beyond public safety.”

              “Whitmer defended ramping up her stay-at-home order and said she never banned the sale of American flags, car seats, or bug spray, and accused anyone who would claim such a thing of “political posturing.”

              “But over the weekend, pictures showing various items being blocked from sale flooded social media.

              41

              • #
                Bill In Oz

                Ohhh well
                More Wuhan Flu coming their way.
                More victims like it or not
                Till they number getting sick & dying
                Forces a rethink
                Even in Michigan..

                23

      • #
        Phoenix44

        Italy hasn’t declined as it hasn’t achieved herd immunity. It mistimed its lockdown. Too soon and you flatten the spike and then risk a second spike when you come out, too late and you just destroy the economy for no benefit. T

        32

    • #
      • #
        PeterS

        For now. Let’s hope it doesn’t become mandatory but according to PM Morrison it’s clear he is not discounting the possibility of making it mandatory if not enough people volunteer.

        62

        • #
          Destroyer D69

          [SNIP. Off topic. - Jo]

          64

          • #
            PeterS

            I understand many are thinking along that line. I don’t. I take the view governments are to a large extent clueless and bungling their way through the crisis as best they can. In the process they will instigate what many perceive as draconian measures that are temporary but in fact many will remain “for the common good”. Now where did I hear that phrase? I think it was in the movie Quiet Earth.

            102

          • #
            el gordo

            Very amusing D69, the reality is that Morrison was told early by intel that this maybe a manufactured virus with unknown consequences and so he moved quickly.

            This App is only required for a relatively short while and there is no need for Big Brother conspiracy theories.

            36

            • #
              Destroyer D69

              Always remember… “There will be no….under a government that I lead” anytime the subject of political agendas surfaces….

              42

  • #
    TdeF

    “the head of the World Health Organisation has stated many times that there is no evidence that the new coronavirus was produced in the laboratory.” And WHO has done everything possible to make sure the world did not know about Wuhan Flu. They even invented a new name for it.

    It’s a total coincidence that it started near the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    It’s a total coincidence that it is exactly as described by the Wuhan Institute of Virology in their published paper. Apparently that could happen naturally, using segments of the Aids virus to make the horseshoe bat virus infective for humans.

    It’s a total coincidence that it is the horseshoe bat virus.

    And it’s obvious to everyone that the Americans used a Chinese bat to create a very similar virus and released it near the Wuhan Institute of Virology to incriminate the Chinese military. Even though the Horseshoe bat is not native to the Americas.

    Then what the Chinese government did to hide the outbreak, deny that it was very contagious and transmissable between humans was fully supported by the President of the WHO, not a coverup.

    And saying that the virus was made by the Chinese army is xenophobic and racist. So there.

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    • #
      TdeF

      Spanish flu wasn’t racist. Asian flu wasn’t racist. Hong Kong flu wasn’t racist. However Wuhan flu is a racist name, so the WHO invented COVID-19. And the world’s journalists agreed that Wuhan flu was racist and have done as they were told. Besides, it has nothing to do with Wuhan.

      You see if a military virus was to escape from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, the last place you would expect a breakout is Wuhan. That’s just a total coincidence.

      261

      • #
        TdeF

        Or the American military. Who also forgot to tell anyone in America to close the borders and protect Americans. As Joe Biden said, closing the borders with China was extreme Xenophobia. You wonder who writes his script?

        281

    • #
      Carl

      The head of the WHO is a marxist. The previous head for 10 years was from Hong Kong, which is ruled by China.

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    • #
      Bulldust

      The ABC (Australian Broadcaster for China … I believe that is what the abbreviated now stands for) uses deceptive language to deflect the WIV (Wuhan Institute of Virology) “conspiracies”:

      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-18/coronavirus-misinformation-origin-theory-donald-trump-wuhan-lab/12158774

      Notice how they say things like:

      “The overwhelming weight of scientific research so far points to the coronavirus originally stemming from animals.”

      The WIV had plenty of bats and other animals in the lab exactly for the purpose of studying viruses. Yeah, if the virus came from an animal in the lab, and then spread to a technician who then spread it to the wet market, yeah… it came from an animal. Technically speaking…

      Can we call it ABCCP or something, just to make it clear who influences them?

      240

      • #
        robert rosicka

        Yet they printed the accusation by a Chinese party official that America had planted the virus in China .

        100

  • #
    TdeF

    I note with interest that people now defend Joe Biden’s age at 77 is only 4 years older than Donald Trump. That is cute when consider that Trump was in his sixties when campaigning to be the oldest President in history. Now Joe Biden would be President in his eighties. Does no one in the democratic party have a concern? Especially when be is BFF with President Xi of China?

    It is possible this will not go well in the coming Presidential elections. In fact it is possible that Biden is unelectable and is rolled at the Democratic convention by a complete outsider. Or Hillary Clinton who is 72 but has the entire of Hollywood and the Media behind her, as before. It’s those danged Deplorables. She might find the elites of the big cities are a bit upset at Chinese duplicity though, especially if the virus is judged to be Made in China.

    So expect a few hats to be thrown into the ring in Milwaukee on August 17th 2020.

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    • #
      TdeF

      Then there’s that assault allegation which #metoo Hollywood just does not believe. Like the late Linda Tripp. And those little problems with Hunter Biden and friends in Ukraine and China, which are clearly not true and about which Joe had no idea, despite the photographs. Anyone can fake a photograph. It is just possible the Democrats are pushing a three legged donkey up a hill because Bernie Sanders was just there to get the Obama and socialist student votes, not to actually get elected. That would be ridiculous. He is even older than Joe and rolled over on demand without a whimper.

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    • #
      Dave in the States

      The Dems don’t really care about the person that gets elected’s qualifications, as long as that person toes the line and does what he is told. In their view an empty suit is probably preferable. A greedy player and dirty money [Snip]like Bidden isn’t going to upset the gravy train.

      [ Without a conviction we can't print that .] AD

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    • #
      Alessandro

      The key is who will be his running mate as he/she will take over within 6 months after Joe gets Who-me flu brought to you by your friendly corner Chinese Apothecary store run by Major General Zu Cant B Cerius.

      80

      • #
        Curious George

        In a plan to assassinate President Obama, found in the raid on Osama’s Pakistani refuge, there was an explicit instruction not to harm Biden. He was their candidate for President.

        10

    • #
      RickWill

      I see Cuomo has a lot of support on the east coast and is already being talked about as Biden’s offsider. He has been consistent and steadfast during a rough period in NY. If Biden falls off his perch on the run home then I suspect Cuomo could step up and be a serious threat to POTUS Trump.

      Cuomo has said he is not interested in running but he might be persuaded just to give democrats some hope against Trump. Trump’s approval rating has benefitted from CV19.

      42

      • #
        C. Paul Barreira

        That may be past tense, now. Pew Research Center has published the results of a poll with the headline “Most Americans Say Trump Was Too Slow in Initial Response to Coronavirus Threat”. The report is quite detailed and runs over several pages. What is clear is the immense hurdle of the media that the Trump campaign will have to surmount.

        And then there is this:

        On Thursday morning, the Small Business Administration’s (SBA) small business relief fund, otherwise known as the Paycheck Protection Program (PPP), officially ran out of money.

        Democrats (with a few dissenters) refuse to replenish this fund. And so the internecine war goes on. It’s macabre but Joe Biden’s dementia fits this political situation perfectly.

        51

        • #

          Exactly. Trump, Boris, SlowMo, Jacinda, Justin, Macron, Merkel, all of them were too slow.

          But all their opposition pollies were too slow too. This caught the whole West napping. While leaders should have got better advice, the academics who are “Chief Medical” officers that didn’t say “Shut The Door” deserve to be sacked.

          Which Profs of Microbiology were publicly or privately calling for borders to shut? What do we pay our universities for? What do we pay our ABC for? The US CDC and all equivalents?

          Institutions that were meant to protect us failed and deserve their decrepit, troughing incompetence to be overturned. Peacetime hacks need to be replaced with war-time Generals who can restore our competitiveness and safety.

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          • #
            TdeF

            Policians playing doctors. And doctors playing politicians. At least Trump listens and stays flexible. He closed the borders against great opposition from everyone. Now he is judged not to be fast enough.

            You also have to factor that if he closed the borders too early, it would undermine his authority to do so. After what happened in Italy, he had no problem projecting that onto America and he was right. Italy’s tragedy saved millions.

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          • #
            PeterS

            Hindsight is a wonderful thing Jo. There is always someone who has it right in the beginning. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. The thing is though we still do not know whether we have already gone over board on all this. There is conflicting evidence. Still I prefer the precautionary approach given the massive amount of unknowns at the start. The fact that people are still debating whether we should begin relaxing the restrictions or not shows we still have a lot of unknowns.

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            • #
              Bill In Oz

              Foresight is far better !
              Jo had this pinned in early Feb.
              Where were you in early Feb ?
              Will you acknowledge this foresight ?

              23

          • #
            DOC

            There’s a lot of China money floating around in some of those bodies. It would
            be interesting to know what discussions were had within those institutions before
            making public comment, or, if there was any implicit or recognised threat of a financial retaliation if a move was made that China didn’t like. Why did Morrison move, against
            advice, when he did, to shut down borders and flights (eventually)? Morrison is a lay
            person so he must have been taking more than official Australian advice as well as
            the official advice.

            60

        • #
          RickWill

          The rating improvement is current. It was a question of his job performance not how quickly he acted on the CV19 threat.
          https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-03/trump-campaign-bets-on-approval-rating-boost-at-mercy-of-virus

          Trump current job approval rating is the highest it has been since the early days of his term.

          The only popular commentator I know of who had it right from the very first was Jo Nova:
          http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/corona-virus-and-those-exponential-curves/

          50

    • #
      Steve of Cornubia

      The key question is, “Who will be VP?”

      Hillary Clinton? Michele Obama?

      You see, should the doddering old fella suffer a heart attack …

      71

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Off Topic TdeF
      Red Thumbs.

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      • #
        TdeF

        It’s all politics and world domination Bill. This is not about forensic medicine or microbiology. The Chinese hid the virus, as with SARS and Asian flu. This time, unlike the last time, the new President of WHO helped them by misinforming the world and simultaneously refusing to issue a pandemic alert and suppressing a damning report from Taiwan. In my opinion, all criminal actions. In sheer scale let alone cost, crimes against humanity.

        And everyone is looking to profit from it, even the Chinese government who knew it was coming. And we all know they did it. The questions which flow I am addressing and they are all political, such as the potential of an attack on Taiwan to divert everyone and chill Xi’s enemies. Biden trying to help hide the blame. And a potential criminal prosecution of President Xi’s stooge in WHO. And if anyone criticizes the Chinese or Tedros, they are racists, even the Taiwanese. And Biden called Trump an extreme Xenophobic.

        This crisis will end soon we hope, but the ramifications are endless and the Americans are demanding access to the laboratory in Wuhan. As if they will get it. It’s all shadow boxing while thousands die. We had chemical weapons of mass destruction like Hussein and Gaddafi’s Sarin gas. Now we finally have a biological weapon released on the world. The release may have been accidental, but the cover up to allow it to infect millions in America and Europe was not.

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    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Also off Topic TdeF
      Red Thumb again.

      219

  • #
    Dave in the States

    Being labelled a conspiracy theorist is the modern day equivalent of being accused of heresy and witchcraft by the Inquisition.

    That is why the MSM dances around the obvious.

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  • #
    Roy Hogue

    Sonofabitch! I knew it, we did it to ourselves. And we already know that in China there is more commitment to self than to ethics and honesty. Witness the heparin disaster where the manufacturer diluted the stuff with something toxic.

    Now we have infected lab animals sold to just anyone for extra cash. Chinese justice will put a bullet in the back of their heads.

    And why would anyone engineer a new virus? Do you do it just because you can or do you have a more sinister motive?

    Why in the world did the U,S help with the U.S. help with such a thing? Only one reason. It has to be bio-weapon research.

    80

    • #
      farmerbraun

      Yes , the cover story that it was an entirely benevolent attempt to develop an HIV vaccine has , so far, found little support.
      I suppose there can always be spin-off benefits of such “humanitarian” research efforts, that could not be foreseen , such as the one that you suggest.
      Maybe China is the real Lucky Country .
      Bill gates has always been big on humanitarian research ; almost as big as the Clintons when it comes to the humanitarian angle.

      11

    • #
      NuThink

      https://www.npr.org/2020/01/28/800442646/acclaimed-harvard-scientist-is-arrested-accused-of-lying-about-ties-to-china

      Roy – hopefully this answers your question about why a few in the US would help China with the lab in Wuhan.

      30

      • #
        Steve of Cornubia

        I worked in the Australian research sector myself and was very troubled by this sort of thing. At least Leiber was working in secret, whereas here in Australia, it’s hard finding a corridor in any research institute where you’re not rubbing shoulders with Chinese researchers ‘collaborating with their Australian counterparts”. All out in the open, no laws being broken. Those Chinese scientists were very good and no doubt did some excellent work but, like supposedly independent, private companies in China, you can never be sure who they ultimately report to.

        All the scientific skills, expertise and IP that Australia possesses can be found in those buildings.

        By the way, ordinary Australian citizens had to pass through security to enter those same buildings.

        80

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          Follow the Money. I’ll bet some cash s ending up in a pocket it should never grease, We are beset with treachery in high places.

          40

          • #
            Steve of Cornubia

            I don’t necessarily think that what I saw was corruption per se. There was and is no secrecy involved. Australian researchers are not breaking the law by collaborating with China. In fact it is encouraged. I do believe though that some research projects are designed to include international collaboration where none is really needed or, even where the project would benefit from overseas input, the choice of partner can have more to do with the travel wishes or personal relationships held by the principal researcher here in Australia, than with the quality of outcomes in mind. When they ‘go shopping’ for collaborators, they might have one eye on the travel opportunities presented and how hospitable their hosts are likely to be.

            Hmmm, let me think, a month in wet and soggy Christchurch, or a month being wined and dined in Beijing, with a ‘field trip’ to the Great Wall?

            That explains some of it, naivety the rest where Australia is concerned, especially those projects that permit Chinese researchers to be ‘embedded’ within the CSIRO or ANU (for instance) – possibly for several years. I mean, seriously? The nation with possibly THE worst record for IP infingement and industrial espionage can send its researchers to wander the labs of our research organisations, unsupervised? Needless to say, any new IP generated was normally shared by all parties to the project, along with a license to exploit/use background (pre-existing IP) in some way.

            I remember expressing my concern at a conference one day, with five or six Australian researchers. The room temp suddenly dropped five degrees and my audience looked like they could smell something foul. They had a racist in their midst!

            Can you hear those people laughing? That’s coming from Beijing.

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    • #
      Serp

      … and the French who built the lab were appalled at the inability of its occupiers to maintain biosecurity procedures and didn’t hang about to take any credit.

      60

  • #
    OriginalSteve

    We seem to live in interesting times….

    Those who understand the origin of this statement will get it….

    80

  • #
    • #
      Dave in the States

      It may be because of the 14 to 21 day incubation period. The progress of contagion has already started running its course before measures can be taken in either case.

      60

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Jo, could this be the next story

      Data seems to show lockdowns may make no difference to virus spread , virus has its own life cycle irrespective of measures.

      Italian health system also collapsed in 2017 under normal flu….

      71

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        This is no story
        Just misinformation.
        Propaganda for someone’s benefit.

        18

      • #

        Sigh. The holes in that “Miraculous” thesis that viruses have an 8 week “life cycle” are huge and obvious. I’ve already written that post. Decided this was more important. See my post with graph after graph showing that in every nation that started major isolation moves (which they all do in some way eventually) it was 12 days til their numbers peaked.

        The Israeli has demonstrated nothing. He treats separate nations like they independent when they are all watching in copying each other, he doesn’t understand virology, thinks correlation is causation, has no explanation.

        It’s tooth fairy magic.

        Steve, I’m all ears, please find me some data that shows Italy has ever experienced a flu season like this coronavirus season. I suspect it is more like NY where this event is off-the-charts for the 20 year history of the flu?

        Anyone can call an emergency ward “crisis” — newspapers publish headlines like that every winter. But data, we need numbers.

        62

    • #
      Raving

      New infections in Ontario and Quebec are still running at 6%. with quite strong social distancing

      No surprise as to the increasing numbers and deaths. Its mostly being spread in the long care facilities and health care workers. They are being heavily tested while most of the population and those who are symptomatic are ignored. Isolating and protecting the vulnerable residents is a work in progress

      A few days ago Ontario was managing to get 15% positives on its very selective testing.

      Would like to believe there is a large hidden infection pool leading to some herd immunity. Unfortunately the infection of clusters on aircraft carriers and meat packers, for example demonstrates infection growth to 30% and beyond before being unmasked by ttesting all in the cluster. its the same pattern as with long care facilities except with younger populations

      Summary: The quite rapid growth of infection from 1 to 5 to 10 to 20 to 30+ % occurs in localized clusters where people are in close contact .. meat packers, ships,retirement homes, …even hospitals

      Obviously more PPG and practices is required for such close quarters.
      It would seem that the ‘tested’ spread of infection to 20 , 30, 40 or more percent argues against widepread hiddeni imunity in the background population

      71

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        Early closing the borders by Trudeau
        Would have prevented this.
        But he’s a progressive globalist
        So that was ideologically ‘unsound’ for him.
        Which shows what risks we run if we have ideologically driven governments
        Willing to ignore the medical evidence.

        CCP did this at the start.
        So too did Trump.
        So too did Boris at the start before changing g his mind.
        But lots of others id the same in Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, Belgium Indonesia South Africa Brazil
        To name but a few…

        45

        • #
          Raving

          Canada is a big place. There is a lot of natural isolation between the west, the Praries, the center and the East. British Columbia stand a small chance at eradication. One road and a single bridge connect ontario and manitoba. A few roads and mountain range between Alberta and British Columbia. The choke points could be controlled.

          Quebec has already pointed out that it has many cases because it had high travel with NYC and Europe and especially during the critical spring break period.

          We are stuck with the situation which saddles us. Prefer to be in Austrslia now

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          • #

            Excellent reasoning Raving on the rapid cluster growth. I agree. If there were widespread asymptomatic infections we surely would have seen it with PCR testing en masse in Austria, Iceland, the Diamond PRincess, South Korea, even in Australia where we do quite a lot of testing.

            Even though PCR RNA won’t turn up past infections that have gone, there are suspiciously few examples of “mass infection”. China must have done that kind of testing in some places but they act as though they believe they have no herd immunity. I don’t believe a thing the CCP says but I believe in watching what they do.

            If Canada mandated masks and recommended Vitamin D perhaps it would help beat the tail end of the winter CC&F season effect? Otherwise I am at a loss to explain why Australia has had such a better faster result than all northern hemisphere nations.

            But if Canada is getting 15% positive, it sounds like testing is very inadequate.

            81

            • #
              Raving

              Another example of covid19 spreading in a cluster of younger individuals.

              “358 cases of COVID-19 now linked to Cargill meat plant”
              https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/cargill-deena-hinshaw-covid-19-1.5536916

              Ontario was getting 15% positive but they were mostly allowing tests only for healtcare workers, hospital patients, first responders and long term care residents who exhited sympotoms, and/or traveled abroad to a know hot spot or immediate cotact with a know positive. Anyone else who had symptoms could not get tested. Were told to assume they had it and self isolate

              Limited Testing was almost completely focused on assaying and preventing the spread amongst the most vulnerable

              41

          • #
            Bill In Oz

            Nova Scotia?
            New Brunswick ?
            New Found land ?
            Prince Edward Island ?
            How are they doing ?
            OK I suspect.

            10

  • #
    Ross

    Here is an alternative point of view from researchers at Cambridge University. They think the origins are from somewhere in southern China.

    https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/coronavirus-began-months-earlier-not-21882132

    50

  • #
    RickWill

    It was eventually going to happen. A Danish bank offered mortgages at negative interest:
    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/aug/13/danish-bank-launches-worlds-first-negative-interest-rate-mortgage

    Jyske Bank, Denmark’s third largest, has begun offering borrowers a 10-year deal at -0.5%, while another Danish bank, Nordea, says it will begin offering 20-year fixed-rate deals at 0% and a 30-year mortgage at 0.5%.

    Under its negative mortgage, Jyske said borrowers will make a monthly repayment as usual – but the amount still outstanding will be reduced each month by more than the borrower has paid.

    The “yield” on short term government funds in Denmark is minus 0.6%. So government gets paid for its own debt; in effect the annual cost of the capital guarantee. The bank can make a small margin by lending at minus 0.5% rather than paying 0.6% for the government to take it back.

    This is inevitable when a population becomes net savers. The result of risk averse ageing population; Denmark median age is 42.3 years. Australia median age is 37 years. Populations in developed countries typically become net savers when median age exceeds 38 years.

    I wonder what negative rate would encourage people to cash out deposits, providing that was still an option of course.

    91

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Off Topic Rick
      Red Thumb.
      The issue is man made pandemic diseases.

      422

      • #
        RickWill

        The reason for the negative interest rate being offered is CV19. That has killed demand for stuff in Denmark and most other places.

        CV19 is highly deflationary for economies. I expect the government sector will need to take the lead in getting money turning over because the private sector will be keeping low while trying to build reserves.

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      • #
        Crakar24

        Felt sorry for you so green thumb bill

        72

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          Ta, Craker,
          But I green thumbed Rick’s reply !
          I am immune to the slings & arrows
          Of those who do not understand or care about the evidence.
          But ventilate & distract anyway.

          410

          • #
            Steve of Cornubia

            You make it sound like you enjoy being contrary and argumentative.

            90

            • #
              Serp

              The PeterFitzroy virus has him.

              51

            • #
              Bill In Oz

              I actually enjoy being persuaded by the on topic ‘evidence’
              Rather than just accepting wild distractive opinions.

              Woring in the garden today, I was thinking about this.
              And suddenly realised that some Fitz & GA are not the only trolls here.
              Some there are who’s task is to put forth
              Absurdly wildly distracting contrarian views
              With the PURPOSE of undermining the wider public’s
              View of Jo’s blog

              11

      • #
        TdeF

        And their impact today. Which is on topic.

        61

  • #
    Scott

    As I have claimed before.

    This whole thing is a con job.

    The virus was created and released intentionally.

    Taiwan told the WHO in December/January that the virus spreads human to human but the WHO kept saying there was no evidence of that.

    The WHO helped cover up in order to ensure the spread worldwide.

    This is part of a grand effort to remove President Trump and his team.

    The Global Elite want their control back before their plan for the world is exposed.

    Please open your eyes to the evil that wants to control you.

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    • #
      RickWill

      Trump’s rating is up since the CV19 threat presented. Biden is almost invisible. Maybe Trump is pulling the strings at the WHO.

      64

      • #
        Peter C

        Trump’s rating is up since the CV19 theat presented

        Readers of the Fairfax papers are unlikely to know that!

        101

    • #
      PeterS

      The other thing to note is we saw China building hospital en mass in early February if not sooner. They managed to build massive ones in literally a couple of weeks if not less. How did they do it? They used prefabricated units. One problem with that. It takes weeks to make them. That means they knew something was badly wrong late last year. For all that time they tried to keep it all secret but failed. It’s really time to “ask” China to come clean and get them to work with the rest of the world to avoid it all happening again. I have no idea what we should do if they don’t comply. War is likely inevitable in that case. The world simply can’t afford another crisis like this one in the short to medium term, and possibly even the longer term. China must grow up and become a real member of the word community of nations and stop being such an arrogant totalitarian thug.

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    • #
      Roger Knights

      I’ve read that part of the reason Trump didn’t act early was that Xi assured him, presumably in person-to-person exchanges, that the bug was no big deal. If that’s true, that adds to the sins of the CCP.

      50

  • #
    dadgervais

    I’ll try a post before 500 get in ahead of me, and noone gets to see it at the bottom.

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/04/padding-numbers-michigan-begins-dumping-extra-presumed-cases-coronavirus-death-totals-like-new-york/

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/04/antibody-testing-reveals-coronavirus-widespread-known-thus-far-less-dangerous-expected/

    Not attacking anyone with contrary opinions, we just don’t know yet one way or another. As for me, I’m not ready to jump to either extreme without good evedence.

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    • #
      TdeF

      There have been many of these reports and they involve very shoddy logic. We are told that about 20% of cases are serious and require hospitalization and 10% require intensive care. How do we know this? In Germany after an area has been infected, there was a chance to confirm.

      So they tested the wider community and found twice as many people who were infected and not reported, asymptomatic people. They argue that it is far more widespread than first thought and therefore less dangerous.

      However this changes nothing much, lowering the numbers from (20% and 10%) to (10% and 5%) does seem much better but doubling the number of people actually infected leaves you with the exactly same number of dead people.

      And considering that no country has over 0.2% of infected people, the number of infected people could really be 0.4%, so just multiply the numbers of dead by 250 instead of 500x the number already gone.

      For some reason the prospect of only 5 million dead in the UK instead of 10 million does not convince anyone that this virus is ‘safer’ than first thought.

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      • #
        Bill In Oz

        Yes TdeF, that seems to escape
        Most ‘contrarian’ thinkers here.
        Actual numbers are far more important than percentages.

        48

      • #
        Peter C

        There have been reports about asymtomatic peole spreading the disease, but in many cases the spreader soon becomes sick ( symptomatic). A report in the Melbourne Age today about emeritus professor Tony Guttman, who was apparently infected by a visiting British mathematician at Melbourne University, when he passed over a textbook. The British visitor became sick just a few hours later and Guttman a few days later.
        Guttman’s wife apparently had a mild brief illness but it seems that she was not tested.

        It is hard to know if people can be mildly or even unaffected but be infectious because the testing until now has been so limited. Hopefully the lack of testing capability is being fixed.

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        • #
          WXcycles

          This would not even be a problem if people observed the lock-down conditions. Why did he accept a book without disinfecting it? Heating it up with a hair drier would probably have been enough without damaging the book. Wipe down with sugar soap on the cover may have been enough as well. Or just leave it in a black plastic garbage bag in the Sun for a day. Careless.

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    • #
      RickWill

      None of the antibody tests have reliability data yet. Test results of 986 people from a ski resort in Colorado gave positives for 8 and indeterminate for 23. So the error range is wide.

      The antibody testing in California has no actual reliability data other than the number tested of 3300 and a very wide range of likely infection being 2.3% to 4.2% being positive. That range could include sampling error and testing error – but no information on that.

      Australia has assessed 6523 CV19 cases. Of those 65 have died. Hence death rate 1% – for now but will be higher as still 60 critical cases. Australia has undertaken 391k tests and the virus is effectively crushed, meaning there are few existing undetected cases in the community. There may be people in the community with antibodies who are not in the case count but it has to be a small number as there has been very little unsourced spread.

      The picture will become clearer as the reliability of testing improves and more populations are sampled.

      What we do know is that the virus would have resulted in a truly massive toll if social distancing measures were not implemented. Italy’s death toll of assessed cases is 13%. That is what happens when triage decisions dominate in the level of health care offered. Australia has just release a 92yo from hospital after recovering from CV19.

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      • #
        Carl

        “Death rate” and “death toll” need to be defined carefully. If the denominator is the number tested and found to be infected, after presenting at hospital, the rate can be too high by a factor of 10 or 100 depending on how many people are infected and get over it without even being aware they had it. The important figure is the death rate per number infected including those who were asymptomatic and now immune. The death rate per infection won’t be known until countries do large scale random sampling for antibodies. That testing is vital if we’re not going to panic and ruin the economy unnecessarily.

        30

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          The important figure is the NUMBER dead.
          Lose track of that
          And we have lost our humanity.

          34

          • #
            PeterS

            The number of dead per million is IMHO far more important.

            51

            • #
              RickWill

              The number dead per million of population is a useful statistic for assessing the effectiveness of controls.

              Taiwan is no doubt the most effective with 0.3 deaths per million. It appears SCoMo is hopeful of pushing Australian controls in the same direction as Taiwan. I may need to invest in a new phone. I bought my existing phone for its battery. It goes at least a week between recharge but I was told that the big battery just displaces all the good bits that makes the phone faster. Another app on my phone would grind it to a standstill.

              Belgium action has been the least effective with 445 deaths per million.

              31

              • #
                Bill In Oz

                They have had no national government there for about 15 months when the last election produced a stalemate between the French & the Dutch speaking parts of Belgium.
                Meanwhile it is the regional & Brussels governments which are doing the CORONa 19 fight…All in all not very effectively.

                21

  • #
    nb

    ‘no evidence that the new coronavirus was produced in the laboratory’
    This part of the statement is clearly false. There is evidence. There is circumstantial evidence, for example the act of destroying information. There is also direct evidence such as the gene code itself. The evidence might not be sufficient, it might be open to dispute. But there is evidence. And by the sounds of it that evidence is pretty convincing. (There is certainly a lot more than had Pell convicted too!)

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  • #
    TdeF

    And while very early, the drug Remdesivir looks promising too. People are out of hospital in a week. What that means is not only more lives saved, less suffering, less cost but triple the capacity of hospitals and one third of the number of people who are producing active viruses. Of course the promotion of this drug by CNN may just be a counter to Trumps’ Hydroxychloroquine which the Trump hating media desperately hope does not work.

    In Australia we have almost stopped new infections and most which have occurred are directly traceable. What we need to do now is eliminate all viruses and that means reducing the pool of infected people rapidly. An anti viral can help people do that even faster and reduce the risk of cross contamination dramatically.

    There are 2699 active cases in Australia, growing at under 50 a day with new cases (currently at 17 for today) but recoveries are 100-200 a day. So 2-3 weeks to have no cases at all, maybe less. As infections precede detection by two weeks, no detected cases means no infections for the previous two weeks. Mid May is looking great.

    Overseas, a really functional anti viral for Wuhan flu would be a Godsend for everyone, not only reducing hospital numbers but reducing risk of virus leaking from this pool x3.

    After all, it does not matter right now if the Chinese military invented this, as seems likely. Every country is doing this. What matters is that we have learned how to defeat it without another disaster on the scale of the Spanish flu. And by the end, we will finally be motivated and funded to stop this happening again, because this is the first time the world has joined forces to fight a pandemic with modern tools. And that includes the internet, fast information and total coordination. What has been fantastic is that for the first time, there is the will to stop this. And all the other viruses and the viruses to come. Bill Gates would be thrilled. This virus has achieved what advertising could not have done. Brutal awareness of the danger.

    Now to move the WHO to a non political organization perhaps like Medicins sans Frontiers, not a department of the UN world government. And granted it is riddled with activists but what organization peopled by young enthusiasts is not?

    And to fund the World Meteorological Organization rather than the appalling IPCC. Even the title is prejudicial. The world needs an environmentalist watchdog who get things done like the annual fires in Indonesia, saving species, reducing real pollution, not socialists and communists who see ecology as just another tool for social equality and profiteering by their banker friends. The Windmills and solar panels are all in energy rich countries which do not need them. That’s a travesty and the poor people have to import coal and oil anyway with money they do not have.

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    • #
      TdeF

      Although perhaps I am wrong. The IPCC became an environmental organization because it had the necessary argument that changing the astmophere with fluorocarbons or Carbon Dioxide would have adverse effects on the climate. It’s in the title. That’s how they get into the UN. So they created an environmental activist organization with the amazing premise of of man made Climate Change. Then they had to find it, which did not take long.

      So perhaps the professional World Meteorological Organization should just stick to the important but boring business of the weather and stay completely clear of environmentalism. There are plenty of aggressive world environmental activist organizations without government funding of yet another. Polar bears have nothing to do with the weather and they are fine.

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      • #
        dadgervais

        Has anyone seen any information on what treatment Boris Johnson recieved to effect his speedy recovery?

        50

        • #
          • #
            TdeF

            Sure. And paracetamol. And is that a flight of pigs I see out the window?

            Really, the Prime Minister of Britain would likely receive donated plasma with antibodies. I would be surprised if they didn’t.
            And they can tell no one, ever, because it’s not free on the NHS.

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      • #
        Wally

        Sorry to tell you TdeF

        WMO is full of people who are big believers in Catastrophic Climate Change and thats their daily job. WMO is like UN – polical appointments run it.

        No hope of that being a sensible way out.

        70

        • #
          TdeF

          Of course it is. That what political people do to advance themselves. They know the money is in #metoo.

          Even the head of the American Society of Physicists believes in man made Climate Change! Too bad about any evidence.

          The WMO is so tightly connected to the IPCC, they are joined at the hip.

          So I am talking about making it represent only meteorologists and more than half of them do not believe it. Nor most physicists.

          Even the Royal Society has been taken over. The poison and cash is coming from the sponsorship and control of the EU and UN. It’s a giant party on other people’s cash.

          Stop that, remove that career path and make the WMO about meteorology. Remove it from the UN. The IPCC is absurd.
          And the Royal Society has been a major problem for science for years. They would have disagreed with Galileo.

          70

    • #
      robert rosicka

      It was interesting that Tom Hanks wife was given the anti malaria drug when in the Queensland hospital.

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      • #
        TdeF

        And she complained about the terrible side effects of this drug approved for malaria, but gave no opinion on whether it helped. Perhaps if she wants to be welcome in Hollywood, it’s better to say nothing good about it.

        81

      • #
        Peter C

        Yes Robert,

        The Hydroxychloroquine treatment that Tom Hanks and his wife, Rita Wilson, were both given has now been banned in Queensland.
        Rita Wilson has complained widely and loudly that she suffered extreme side effects from the Hydroxychloroquine. However it seems to me that the symptoms which she says were so extreme ( nausea and severe fatigue) might have been due to the virus itself. It may be an anti Trump thing.

        Even now I am not finding good reports which compare treatment outcomes of Hydroxychloroquine with or without other things like azithromycin and zinc compared with alternative treatments.

        There are plenty of reports about potentially severe side effects, but these all seem to be at high dose. The Brazil study was supposedly stopped because of cardiac side effects but in fact it was only the high dose treatment arm that was stopped. The low dose study is continuing.

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        • #
          Lance

          That “high dose” study was 300% of the dosage recommended by Dr Vladimir Zelenko in NY, USA.

          The HCQ + Zn + Zpak costs less than USD 20.

          The Remdesivir promoted by some/many as “promising”, is over USD 1000 per treatment cycle.

          Follow the money.

          $20 or less: https://spectator.org/the-20-solution-to-coronavirus-anecdotal-evidence-is-a-life-saver/

          $1000: https://www.biopharmadive.com/news/coronavirus-remdesivir-gilead-antiviral-drug-covid-19/573261/

          Do the Maths.

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          • #
          • #
            Bulldust

            Yeah a bit hard to patent HCQ which has been around for decades. When I heard about Remdesivir, my first instinct was, cui bono? I was sceptical about the ‘ban’ so I looked it up:

            https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/doctors-banned-from-prescribing-potential-covid-19-drug-20200408-p54ic1.html

            So will Queensland Chief Health Officer Jeannette Young be liable if people are refused HCQ and then suffer as a result? If that happens I would certainly love to see her land in court.

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            • #
              OriginalSteve

              Why wouldnt doctors be allowed to try things to slow the bug?

              Do they want it to spread?

              Just askin’…

              40

              • #

                Chloroquine may have been banned in Australia to cover for the short supply of it here. It gives the doctors an excuse to tell patients who ask that it is not approved for use.

                No Doc or health Minister wants to tell a patient “sorry, that would be useful but we ran out”.

                When will the ABC ask the government a useful question and force them to admit they just can’t get supplies of it?

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              • #
                OriginalSteve

                Jo, india makes 70% of global supply. Surely production can be ramped up….

                30

              • #
                Bulldust

                ABC is unlikely to critique a Labor Premier of course… OrigSteve, I believe a lot of the drug precursor chemicals come from Chy-na. Not sure if the chloroquine chemicals do.

                30

        • #
          Slithers

          If they continue the HCQ + Zn + Zpak treatment in ICU and even when on a respirator then they are effectively killing the patient.
          HCQ + Zn + Zpak is treatment for the initial stages of the disease.
          When the Oxygen stats sink to 90% the patients lungs are filling with fluid. Removing that fluid is what is required, there is good evidence that in the later stages of COVID-19 the problems are several that all threaten live alone and they are all happening at the same time. Destroyed Alveolar so gas exchange has become limited. Fluid in the lungs restricting Gas flow. Damaged Blood corpuscles so less effective gas exchange. Iron (ion fe2 and fe3) being circulated instead of Oxygen in and CO2 out, fe3 is poisonous and doctors who say HCQ + Zn + Zpak is not effective as people still die in ICU while ventilated
          Of course they do if the wrong treatment is applied!

          00

    • #
      WXcycles

      There was a relative ‘spike’ of new cases today TdeF, 67. A growing laxness of attitude may be giving it a further chance.

      If we’re not opening up until May there’s good reason not to, and the various State govts have to get serious about making sure this lock-down process does not fail in the interim, or we’ll be waiting until 1st of June to reopen. We get one chance at doing this right or we may get a complete do over at a stronger level of heavy-handed isolation.

      Most car accidents happen close to home as people become tired and complacent when they’re almost at the end of a trip. That complacency is the biggest mistake near the end of anything, the focus must be maintained, or we will blow it.

      90

      • #
        TdeF

        That was all the doctors returning from their near illegal jaunt to Antarctica. And bringing the virus with them. What is it with doctors that the rules do not apply to them? So most of these cases are developed in quarantine.

        60

      • #
        TdeF

        I wonder. The car accidents probably one is largely a furphy.

        The inverse square law says that if a car accident happens anywhere, it is where you spend the most time and the one end point is home.

        Assume you head in different directions each time, the common point is home. The probability of being somewhere goes inversely as the area because there are more places to go, the further away you go. The probability of being within R goes as 1/r^2. So your probability of being 5km from home is 4x as high as being 10km away. And 1km from home is 100x as likely as 10km. I leave it to someone else to develop this because it means the highest probability of an accident is in your driveway.

        60

      • #
        Serp

        Isn’t it because most trips originate from the home that most accidents occur in its vicinity?

        20

  • #
    AndyG55

    Interesting video..

    Marketing for recurring revenue….. Gates, the Clintons and Big Pharma!

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  • #
    Raving

    On topic

    There have been deliberate and inadvertent release of anthrax and smallpox from millitary and micbrobiology research labs. Even if natural the strain of these pathogens have been optimazed or seceted to some synthetic extent.

    covid19 is bad but the are worse pathogens.

    Release from microbiology labs is recurrent story. it will happen again in the future.

    33

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Evidence please ?

      25

      • #
        Crakar24

        There is no evidence, none of these labs officially exist so no one talks about them, if evidence did exist that one lab was making bio weapons then questions would be asked about all of them Its a bit like the Israeli nuclear weapons program does not exist in the negev desert or perhaps a better example would be tbe only known bio lab to be proven to exist but was never found in iraq.

        This may be tbe trigger for the next war but it wont be excuse they use to stop any pesky questions being asked.

        42

        • #
          Raving

          There are many national microbiology labs. Most do research on vaccines and stuff toi identify and fight these things. Some are military research labs.

          They take strong precautions for good reason but accidents still happen

          The national labs that strive to eliminate disease officially exist.

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          • #
            Crakar24

            You dont know what they do…..thats it end of story

            51

            • #

              The term you need to understand is “Dual Purpose”.

              When does studying a deadly disease to make a vaccine become development of a deadlier or more infectious strain, or development of a bioweapon?

              The line is blurrier than you might think.

              We in the West should not be training and helping scientists working under regimes that are not democratic and potentially our most serious adversary.

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              • #
                Raving

                Nothing new about biological warfare
                https://www.revolutionarywarjournal.com/germ-warfare/

                There are too many sides to this topic. Would rather not think about it.

                Yes you are correct and might suggest it goes beyond that to include multipurpose, incidental and secondary. Biotechnology is at the forefront of engineering now.

                Can only hope that countries have come to realize this stuff is dangerous and it has reliably bad karma

                Countries should be doing their own research and manufacturing their own pharmaceuticals, if for no more reason than to be able to deal with asituation as we have now.

                Things like this will happen again in the future

                21

      • #
        Raving

        Russian anthrax release
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sverdlovsk_anthrax_leak

        you can google the smallpox release Birmingham 1978

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        • #
          Crakar24

          Thanks for proving my point raving, who knew this lab existed or that there was an anthrax release…..but yet there its is on the history rewritten website.

          Everyone keeps this stuff quite, its not denial they just keep quite so they dont jepardise their own programs bio weapons program.

          40

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          Thanks Raving !

          30

      • #
        Chad

        Bill In Oz
        April 18, 2020 at 11:05 am ·
        Evidence please ?

        What precisely do you expect “evidence” of ?….something that “will happen again in the future “ ?
        You need a new catch phrase , Bill !

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        • #
          Bill In Oz

          So your modus operandi
          Is pure speculation then Chad.
          no need for ‘evidence’
          At all, at all.
          PS The blog is definitely being trolled
          When 8 people give you a green thumb
          For spruiking the view that my request
          For evidence was over the top.

          This is a SCIENCE blog
          EVIDENCE is part of it’s DNA

          02

          • #
            Chad

            The blog is definitely being trolled
            When 8 people give you a green thumb
            For spruiking the view that my request
            For evidence was over the top

            OR… more people than you want to believe, think you ask for. Evidence when none is needed … like for a “possible “ future event !

            10

  • #
    Tel

    After the White Horse of pestilence comes the Red Horse of war.

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    • #

      Yes. Possibly.

      Even an accident can be used as an act of war. And until China comes clean we don’t know if it was an accident.

      The only thing we know for sure about China is that it does not have our interests in mind.

      The CCP promoted the spread of the virus, hid the damage, and pumped a message that it was “only the flu” and only hurt a few old folks.

      Unfortunately many in the West wanted to believe those messages for their own political gains, and unwittingly picked up the CCP propaganda, and surprisingly still push it.

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      • #
        Bill In Oz

        I know someone here in Adelaide
        Who was trapped in Columbia because of the lock downs
        Now he is home
        He is busy parroting out the pro CCP line..
        Did you know that “they have free elections with many parties in China “?
        I guess he is just too old to change his spots..
        (Unlike some of us here )
        Even when he could sicken & die from this virus.

        40

      • #
        Raving

        The sense I got was that the epidemiologists in the West had already written off covid19 as an unstoppable flu like pandemic even before it began to take hold outside of China. The acquiescing to the inevitable came with the Wuhan lock down. The epidemiologists initial claim of ‘very low risk’ in light of the complete lockdown of Wuhan, its province and whole of China was pure public relations opinion steering to avoid panic. Nothing to see here. Carry on as usual

        Subsequent to that, Western epidemiologists where taken aback by the high mortality of the elderly. They became a bit stunned to watch the collapse of the Italian hospital capacity. Jo called it dead on!

        Finally epidemiologists seem surprised that ‘social distancing’ actually works with this flu. Remember the UK’s dalliance with herd immunity?

        Shutting down borders was written off early on as too little too late. they underestimated the harshness of covid and also underestimated their ability to shut it down with moderate quarantine. China used severe quarantine

        The West gave up before they needed to do so and then it became too little, too late … which proved to be defeatist because they can actually save the day.

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        • #
          Raving

          Yes it is very easy to talk in hindsight. Am most impressed by Jo’s accuracy in talking with forsight.

          51

    • #
      DOC

      Well put Tel.

      Today on Fox, Hannity made a remark. Due to the CCP of China covering up, this disease is
      destroying world economies, placing people in hardship and killing people. The world could
      consider renegging on all debt owed to China. That could start anything.

      The suggestion also was made that the CCP acted to save face in not revealing the size of the
      problem COVID-19 was, but exported the virus to ensure that in its weakened state it wouldn’t
      be confronted later by its ‘competitors’ being in stronger positions. Not aiming at war.

      On topic, therefore, assuming it can be kept from being seen as an act of war, the fact that
      the virus is or isn’t human manipulated is probably almost irrelevant, as most would expect
      these sorts of lab to be in the game of manipulating bacteria and viruses. I would hate the
      Chinese to actually have inadvertently released a bug which they know to be uncontrollable and
      that’s why they destroyed all their data. That would make total lockdown for an extended period
      the only effective way to manage it, and ensure a depression.

      It is going to be a precarious path back to the world as usual, and that’s not just
      due to the predations of the virus. Keeping people from reacting violently is one thing. Keeping
      national fingers off the triggers is another. In the end, it may be the Chinese people themselves
      that resort to seeking a lot more freedom which they have sniffed in modernity.

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  • #
    TdeF

    And news “Victoria has recorded a further 17 cases of coronavirus, bringing the state’s total to 1,319.

    The state’s Health Minister Jenny Mikakos said nine of the new cases were from people in mandatory quarantine. Of these, seven were from the Greg Mortimer cruise ship..

    Last weekend, 112 Australians and New Zealanders from the cruise ship arrived in Melbourne from Uruguay on a chartered flight.”

    These are people who escaped from Australia two hours before all flights were stopped and against explicit advice. These are the real danger, people including medical doctors who think they are invulnerable and not bound by our rules. Even when they returned. Now we are seeing the results.

    And the likely standoff with China over their virus will have a big impact on booming Chinese tourism around the world. Especially in Italy.

    So how did that hug a Chinese campaign work for the Mayor of Florence? Imagine if the Chinese government and their puppet WHO had told the truth? They would not have been in the country and thousands of Italians would have been alive today.

    90

    • #
      NuThink

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_people_in_Italy

      The community of Chinese people in Italy has grown rapidly in the past ten years. Official statistics indicate there are at least 320,794 Chinese citizens in Italy, although these figures do not account for former Chinese citizens who have acquired Italian nationality or Italian-born people of Chinese descent.[1]

      Prato, Tuscany has the largest concentration of Chinese people in Italy and all of Europe. It has the second largest population of Chinese people overall in Italy after Milan.[2]

      30

  • #
    Crakar24

    Much talk about accidental release but i beg to differ.

    This virus is crushing economies around the world but china dont care because they force their workers back to work and if they die they are easily replaced.

    120

    • #
      Yonniestone

      One of my initial thoughts also, the CCP sees their people as commodities and regardless how damaged economies become they aim to be at the top of that heap regardless of its size.

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  • #
    TdeF

    Nothing points to the fact that it was a Chinese made virus more than not the attempt to cover it up, but the monstrously criminal attempt to spread it around the world before anyone found out it was so dangerous and so hide its origins. With the full support of the President of the WHO. Except it didn’t work. Now they are trying to bluff, that all will be addressed in the fullness of time.
    That’s not good enough.

    At the very least the President of WHO should be on criminal charges, not least mass m*rder. He has form with two cholera epidemics he hid. Like so many of these organizations, WHO is already headquartered in Geneva, Switzerland with 150 field offices. With 27,000 cases in Switzerland and 1,300 deaths, he is probably not home. It’s also a bit close to Italy and Germany and France who would not be very sympathetic.

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    • #
      Bill In Oz

      I hope the Swiss charge him !
      He is a bloody criminal.

      70

      • #
        TdeF

        Any member can charge him, and that’s every country. The actual court is in Den Hague in the Nederlands. Or the court itself can lay charges. If we had known six weeks earlier how infectious this was and how easily transmitted, a hundred thousand people might still be alive. And he actively suppressed the report from independent Taiwan because his first move as President was to remove Taiwan from WHO.

        Consider “Dr. Tedros’ inaction stands in stark contrast to the WHO’s actions during the 2003 SARS outbreak in China. Then WHO DG Dr. Gro Harlem Brundtland made history by declaring the WHO’s first travel advisory in 55 years which recommended against travel to and from the disease epicenter in southern China. Dr. Brundtland also criticized China for endangering global health by attempting to cover up the outbreak through its usual playbook of arresting whistleblowers and censoring media. ”

        and

        “China was also an important ally of Tedros in the WHO’s DG election in 2017. The day after his electoral victory, Tedros confirmed to Chinese state-media that he and the WHO will continue to support the “One China” principle, which recognizes the government in Beijing as the legitimate Chinese government. ” Of Taiwan.

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        • #
          TdeF

          “Adhanom Ghebreyesus was the first director-general not a trained medical doctor by profession”.
          His PhD is in Community Health from the University of Nottingham.

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          • #
            Annie

            Ye gods! What a recommendation!

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            • #

              Yet for all Tedros being a puppet for the CCP, charging him and removing him won’t solve the bigger problem. The UN itself will always be prone to corruption exactly like this. The whole model of being a mini world government is dangerous and inevitably will cause more harm than good. It’s just a question of “how long”.

              It should be disbanded. The charity efforts can be redirected through routes that have some accountability or connection to elections.

              We should run our own foreign aid program, not feed funds to a group of professional parasites.

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              • #
                TdeF

                As in 24.1

                “Dr. Tedros’ inaction stands in stark contrast to the WHO’s actions during the 2003 SARS outbreak in China.

                Then WHO DG Dr. Gro Harlem Brundtland made history by declaring the WHO’s first travel advisory in 55 years which recommended against travel to and from the disease epicenter in southern China.

                Dr. Brundtland also criticized China for endangering global health by attempting to cover up the outbreak through its usual playbook of arresting whistleblowers and censoring media. ”

                That’s what a real head of WHO did. He took them on in 2003 and declared a pandemic. A change of head would make a difference and signal to the world that the President of this huge organization is accountable.

                This was not just a mistake anyone could make. He should not get away with it. No one should. The death toll say so.

                70

              • #
                Raving

                A description of WHO’s management of the Ebola crisis in 2014. They were harshly criticized at that time

                https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-ebola-who/aid-workers-ask-where-was-who-in-ebola-outbreak-idUKKCN0HU03Q20141005

                31

              • #
              • #
                RickWill

                Kevin Rudd has an opposing view.

                He would prefer the UN to establish a guaranteed source of income so it does not need to beg sovereign nations for funding. The UN has made many attempts to create their own funding source. One of the best was the 1999 proposal to tax emails.

                Then a decade ago they proposed a global currency that they would issue.

                Now they have the Sustainable Development Goals, Agenda 2030. A decade long funding guarantee on the cusp of getting the nod before CV19. I think Buckleys now; particularly with Trump ire over WHO.

                20

              • #
                Bill In Oz

                Rick, Not a hope in hell !
                The UN can whistle for it’s dough.
                And if it does a great job
                Nations will cough up
                Otherwise NO.

                10

              • #
                Bill In Oz

                PS We know that Ruddles is a dingbat !

                21

              • #
                TdeF

                Dingbat? A relative of the Horseshoe Bat? No wonder he loves China. I’ll bet he stays away from the wet markets.

                20

  • #
    TdeF

    I cannot imagine his excuse for telling the world that the virus could not be passed by human contact. And why did he do it?

    110

    • #
      TdeF

      My real concern is that expansionist and dedicated Communist President Xi realises the damage he has done. Not for the mass deaths in Wuhan, but with the deadly attempt to hide it all and spread the virus worldwide, employing his lackey in WHO to spread misinformation, standard practice and to keep the doors open. That is close to an act of war. It will destroy all the Belt and Road initiative to win or buy favor across the world and infiltrate every country. No one will have a hug a Chinese program.

      However he will either face a revolt disappear or try to distract the world, perhaps by a little attack on Taiwan, supported still by the leftist media who spread the falsehood that they want it back. A bit like the Sudaten land in Czech and Gdansk in Poland. That would do vastly more damage to Chinese ambitions but would stop a coup. Possibly. It’s going to be dangerous for all unless Xi is dethroned.

      110

      • #
        TdeF

        Mr Tedros Adhanom will be busy looking at this

        “The International Criminal Court (“the ICC” or “the Court”) is a permanent international court
        established to investigate, prosecute and try individuals accused of committing the most serious
        crimes of concern to the international community as a whole, namely the crime of genocide, crimes
        against humanity, war crimes and the crime of aggression.”

        and my guess is that President Xi would have no trouble blaming him.

        90

      • #
        Serp

        The Victorian government is publicly expressing support for the BRI as I advised a few threads ago: its treasurer Tim Pallas lauded WHO and BRI on commercial radio.

        20

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        If Taiwan is attacked
        Things will go ‘boom’ very quickly
        With mushroom clouds as well.
        Like the Israelis,
        The Taiwanese do not ‘say’ what weapons
        They do or do not have.

        02

    • #
      PeterS

      The crazy left want Trump charged for crimes against humanity for defunding the WHO. If they are serious about that, Trump ought to let all guns blazing and bring the WHO as well as the Communist Party of China to account and charge them for crimes against humanity. The evidence is piling up by the day. While he is at it he should consider including the MSM for aiding and abetting the culprits.

      140

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    The same people who let the Ruby Princess dock and caused over 10% of all covid19 cases in Australia,and directly related deaths now force me to allow them to track me on mobile phone so I won’t spread their incompetence.
    Excuse me if I don’t trust you.
    Also I’m old enough to remember robodebt.
    And don’t get me started on the failed doomsday global warming rort you perpetrate.
    With a record of failure like that, handcuff time should be happening.

    150

    • #

      I’m with you Travis. The minute they make that APP compulsory, my phone goes in the bottom drawer. When the battery goes flat, that’s it. I hardly use the [email protected] thing now, so it’ll be no loss. Whoever wants to contact me uses the landline when I’m home.

      Tony.

      110

      • #
        TdeF

        Just turn off the tracking. If they disable that, disable the GPS chip. Tracking is an option on phones. I often turn mine off on priciple. It is however incredibly useful when driving with the WAZE app. Instant traffic and routing around it.

        80

        • #
          Crakar24

          Turn off BT will suffice i think

          20

          • #
            PeterS

            They collect and centralise data as well so if they notice nothing is being collected perhaps alarm bells will ring at “central”. One of the benefits of the app is to alert people later on if someone else in the past passed near them and later was diagnosed to having the virus. Even in that case I would still be against making the app mandatory.

            30

      • #
        Crakar24

        Tony,

        Was just watching the abc and some noob was talking about tbe app and i coukd have sworn he said the “ASD” are involved in this, can anyone confirm?

        If asd are involved it will do more than simply track

        40

      • #
        Annie

        According to Michael Smith News, Morisson has tweeted that the app won’t be mandatory.
        Sorry, no link, can’t get them to work on this tablet.

        70

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          ABC also ran this story earlier today.

          40

          • #
            TdeF

            And the Australian.

            20

            • #
              OriginalSteve

              I notice they have backed off.

              Good.

              Just remember to keep bluetooth shutdown on your phone……

              20

              • #
                Bill In Oz

                I’ve been thinking about this.
                I will not bother with the app.
                But I will suggest to my lady that she get it.
                Why ?
                Well she works at an aged care home
                And necessarily has close contact with all the residents and many staff.
                This app gives here some ‘insurance’ in the event
                Someone she has contact with gets infected.

                10

    • #

      Travis, for all of us concerned about the government using Covid to seriously infringe on our liberties, the solution is to get rid of the virus. We are close. We can do it.

      Without active cases they have no excuse for anything except closed borders.

      I share your fears which is exactly why I’ve campaigned relentlessly for policies that stop the virus.

      All the bad things — the deaths, the GDP hit, the loss of freedom — none of those can be solved while SARS-Cov2, the CCP Virus spreads in Australia. Right now, there is no higher priority for us than getting rid of it, then keeping it out until we get some treatment or it mutates to a nicer form.

      102

      • #
        Raving

        Live in a world bombarded by apps and cookies which promise to collect my data for anonymous alturistic purpose. Never buy into that rubbish. Absolutely hate facebook. Never trusted its vampirish desire to suck up my data.

        Tell me that my government is installing an app ONLY to track me for covid19 contact tracing, to be deleted forever without replacement in 12 months time, to keep the information private and only use for that purpose?

        Yes, being Canadian I might actually risk trusting my government. Might even go out and buy a cell phone just for that purpose.

        YMMV

        21

      • #
        TdeF

        If we can test for it, I don’t want it. Ban all these corona viruses and rhino viruses. They are useless k*llers.

        I want to go in my sleep, just like my grandfather, not like his busload of screaming passengers.

        10

  • #
    • #
      WXcycles

      Who, butters their bread?

      40

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Interesting article EG.
      China has ‘form’
      On virus escapes !

      30

      • #
        TdeF

        And form in hiding it. Like the high speed train crash. The scenario I find fits is selling off laboratory animals for food at the wet market. This is a country where substitution is common place, like the plastic melamine in baby formula. Where else would that happen?

        10

  • #
    dinn, rob

    Pesticides are a natural occurrence, so are central banks worldwide. Buildings in NYC can fall by themselves freefall into own footprint, Wall Street deserved 2008 bailout, single bullet in JFK assassination….
    so after that, boys and girls:
    https://balance10.blogspot.com/2020/04/from-where-did-2009-swine-origin_17.html

    31

    • #
      dinn, rob

      I say, there: 2-25-20 NTU professor Fang Chi-tai added that analyses of the Covid-19 virus have shown that it had a 96% genetic similarity with an RaTG13 bat virus also stored at the Wuhan P4 institute, and that the Covid-19 could be “manufactured” by modifying the RaTG13 virus. 
      Fang also revealed that French researchers had discovered four more amino acids in the gene sequence of Covid-19 than other known coronaviruses, which could be added artificially to make the viral transmission easier.
      Fang’s theory is that natural mutations of viruses will only result in small, singular changes, and it is suspicious to see a naturally mutated virus suddenly take on four amino acids.
      https://asiatimes.com/2020/02/covid-19-may-be-man-made-claims-taiwan-scholar/

      40

  • #
    Speedy

    WOW!!! If this is correct, then it would say a lot about the goodwill of the CCP towards humanity. Pretty scary.

    70

    • #
      el gordo

      Beijing has lost face and Xi doesn’t know what to do.

      If they admit that the selling of dead animals into the Wuhan market was negligence, it will cost them six trillion dollars in compensation. Better to admit liability and pay the price, but the consequences for the leadership would be disastrous.

      60

      • #
        PeterS

        How can they be forced to pay compensation unless China waives its sovereign immunity (which is hardly ever going to happen)? An embargo might be one option but of course that’s fraught with all sorts of problems and risks. Do we really want a war? How about all nations of the world get together to convince China they ought to do the right thing and come clean, be open, say sorry and work towards preventing it all happening again? That’s possibly an impossible challenge but we should at least try.

        50

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          Just confiscate CCP assets
          In Countries affected…

          21

          • #
            PeterS

            Then China will retaliate and sell all the assets (bonds, stocks, etc.) they own overseas and cause Western markets to collapse. Not a smart move on our part – too risky.

            01

        • #
          el gordo

          ‘ … come clean, be open, say sorry and work towards preventing it all happening again?’

          Its probably the best we can hope for, but a true awakening would require an open media and I don’t think Xi contemplates that prospect.

          21

  • #
    thingadonta

    First thing to note is that correlation doesn’t necessarily mean causation.

    Just because there was a lab dealing with infectious diseases near the Wuhun markets doesn’t necessarily mean the biolab was the cause of the disease outbreak. There is a government lab dealing with toxic military substances which happens to be not far from the Novichock poisoning incident in the UK, this doesn’t mean the lab caused the poisoning. 2 Russian agents with no local connections were caught on camera flying in, travelling to the small town of the poisoning, and flying out the next day, (not exactly a place for a quick weekend holiday).

    The biolab was likely put in Wuhun in the first place because there would be a lot of wild animals coming through the markets which could be made available for testing etc. (Which in hindsight may not have been the smartest thing to do, to say the least).

    Unfortunately there are some well known biosecurity incidents where accidents and leaks have occurred. A researcher was killed in the UK studying smallpox, when an air vent between a room containing vials of smallpox allowed the virus to pass through the vent and infect and kill the researcher sitting next to the air vent in another room. The senior researcher responsible committed suicide. A researcher in Russia died of Ebola after a prick with an infected needle. Monkeys brought in for research purposes from Africa killed a number of researchers in Germany with the Marburg virus, when it didn’t even yet have a name. Most of these incidents were some time ago, and methods and practices have imporved since, but with China, which is relatively new to this sort of thing (there were no such labs at all during the communist heydeys) one wonders….

    But also bear in mind, with all the wild animals brought to these markets, and the poor hygiene practices (e.g. cages stacked on top of each other, with urine and excrement passing between animals etc), it also wouldn’t take much for some wild population of some exotic animal so favored for delicacies by the Chinese, from a remote mountain cave in China, being brought in carrying a virus, with the poor rural worker paid a handsome amount for their efforts, but which should have remained forever in the dark remote cave where it was taken from.

    40

  • #
    WXcycles

    Countries above 100 deaths, with spreading percent plus deaths totals:

    % New v Active | Country | Total Deaths | New Deaths
    280.2 … China … 4,632 … 1,290 (“Can we make this farago look credible?” – Xi)
    17.1 … Brazil … 2,141 … 194 (Brazil going to blow up badly)
    15.0 … Peru … 300 … 26 (Peru will blow up as well)
    14.0 … Russia … 273 … 41 (Performance as bad as W Europe)
    13.1 … Morocco … 135 … 5
    12.4 … Algeria … 364 … 16
    12.2 … Mexico … 486 … 37 (Getting overwhelmed by 3,686 total cases)
    11.7 … Ukraine … 125 … 9
    10.1 … Dominican Rep … 200 … 4
    8.6 … Egypt … 205 … 9
    8.5 … Indonesia … 520 … 24
    8.1 … Chile … 116 … 11
    7.9 … Hungary … 156 … 14
    7.8 … India … 486 … 38
    7.8 … Colombia … 153 … 9
    7.7 … Canada … 1,310 … 115 (Struggling to lower spreading)
    7.4 … Serbia … 110 … 7 (Much lower spreading than prior)
    7.3 … Iran … 4,958 … 89
    7.0 … Panama … 109 … 6
    6.9 … Germany … 4,352 … 300
    6.4 … Poland … 332 … 18
    6.4 … Japan … 190 …
    6.4 … Turkey … 1,769 … 126
    6.1 … Spain … 20,002 … 687
    6.0 … Sweden … 1,400 … 67
    6.0 … UK … 14,576 … 847 (Active = 93,772, and 5,599 New today = lots more deaths to come)
    5.9 … Romania … 411 … 19
    5.8 … Denmark … 336 … 15
    5.8 … Belgium … 5,163 … 306
    5.3 … Ireland … 530 … 44
    5.2 … USA … 37,135 … 2,516 (Opening-up pre a peak = Russian Roulette)
    4.6 … Netherlands … 3,459 … 144
    4.4 … Philippines … 387 … 25
    3.7 … Switzerland … 1,327 … 46
    3.3 … Italy … 22,745 … 575 (Far better, but 106,962 active = lot of death to come)
    3.1 … Ecuador … 421 … 18
    2.7 … Austria … 431 … 21
    2.3 … Israel … 151 … 9
    2.2 … Czechia … 173 … 4
    2.1 … Pakistan … 135 … 7
    2.0 … France … 18,681 … 761
    1.0 … Portugal … 657 … 28
    0.9 … Greece … 108 … 3
    0.9 … S. Korea … 230 … 1
    0.5 … Norway … 161 … 9
    0.0 … Argentina … 123 … 1 (Wow … Argentina somehow managed to shut it down! How?)

    2.2 … Australia … 65 … 2 (Spreading increases, are people getting lax here?)

    Countries with more than 500 cases, and more than 2.5% died

    % Died | Country | Active cases | New Cases
    15.05 … Algeria … 1,208 … 150
    14.29 … Belgium … 23,014 … 1,329 (Note: Really high death % is NOT an Italian thing)
    13.41 … UK … 93,772 … 5,599 (Same again)
    13.19 … Italy … 106,962 … 3,493
    12.62 … France … 94,868 … 1,909 ( > 17,000 new cases yesterday, < 2,000 today … hmm)
    11.36 … Netherlands … 26,740 … 1,235
    10.59 … Sweden … 11,266 … 676 (Hospitals overrun)
    10.48 … Spain … 96,040 … 5,891 (Shockingly bad lockdown enforcement)
    8.85 … Hungary … 1,400 … 111
    8.78 … Indonesia … 4,796 … 407 (Not getting spreading low enough, still 8.5%)
    7.72 … Mexico … 3,686 … 450
    7.21 … Egypt … 1,993 … 171
    6.58 … Philippines … 5,004 … 218
    6.36 … Brazil … 17,515 … 2,999 (Brazil’s slums will join Spain, France and UK’s gleaming cities)
    6.24 … Iran … 20,472 … 1,499
    5.27 … Morocco … 2,148 … 281
    5.24 … USA … 612,069 … 31,631 (Collapse of US Hospital treatment effectiveness gets worse each day)
    5.09 … Romania … 6,148 … 360
    5.06 … Slovenia … 1,064 … 36
    4.98 … Ecuador … 7,191 … 225
    4.90 … Switzerland … 9,351 … 346
    4.86 … Greece … 1,847 … 17
    4.85 … Dominican Rep … 3,658 … 371
    4.85 … Bulgaria … 664 … 46
    4.75 … Denmark … 3,348 … 194
    4.61 … Argentina … 1,880 … 0 (Did they just not report new cases? Or is this real?)
    4.45 … Colombia … 2,652 … 206
    4.39 … N Macedonia … 929 … 36
    4.28 … Tunisia … 784 … 42
    4.14 … Canada … 20,004 … 1,536
    4.08 … Bangladesh … 1,705 … 266
    3.96 … Poland … 7,181 … 461
    3.79 … Ireland … 13,373 … 709
    3.79 … Bosnia Herz … 848 … 47
    3.45 … Portugal … 17,846 … 181
    3.39 … India … 11,825 … 922
    3.36 … Cuba … 700 … 61
    3.31 … Afghanistan … 777 … 66
    3.14 … Lebanon … 561 … 5
    3.08 … Germany … 53,931 … 3,699
    2.95 … Austria … 4,460 … 119
    2.87 … Lithuania … 906 … 21
    2.71 … Panama … 3,809 … 265
    2.68 … Ukraine … 4,291 … 501
    2.64 … Czechia … 5,202 … 116
    2.60 … Estonia … 1,276 … 25

    1.00 … Australia … 2,640 … 58 Need new cases to drop to re-open in mid-May

    Percent Died Graph – All Cases Global (March 8th to April 17th 2020)

    https://i.ibb.co/mDqZtFx/Rising-Percent-Died-All-Cases-Global-March-8th-to-April-17th-2020.png

    70

  • #
    Zed

    China now blaming the USA for the virus!

    https://youtu.be/dlGj1RdUHUM

    30

  • #
    kevin a

    Great video
    Coronavirus fake news
    https://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/episodes/corona/11951580

    Media Says ‘Chinese Coronavirus’ Term Is Xenophobic- Is That Why They’ve Used It?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eZtCq1aj2g&feature=emb_title

    Toilet paper panic Mon 9 Mar 2020
    https://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/episodes/toilet/12039942

    Former Australian Liberal minister Bronwyn Bishop suggested China created the virus for its own nefarious reasons.

    “It is to get rid of non-productive Chinese … So they don’t have to be fed,” Ms Bishop told Sky News.

    She also said China planned to “export the virus into the United States” and “test whether or not it is possible for this sort of action to send the rest of the world into recession”.
    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-most-common-conspiracy-theories-about-coronavirus-debunked

    20

    • #
      Orson

      In the US, Fox News evening host of Tucker Carlson Tonight says his team spent much of the day querying knowledgeable high level officials in Washington, DC, who basically concur that early on in China, it looked like an accidental lab release. Certainly, the coverup and deflection displayed by the CCP since then implicates their culpability.

      Here’s video of Carlson’s report from 6m to about 19m
      Hey https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1uBcC6AEps

      Not that the US Intel community has covered itself in credulous glory; neither is it uniformly dysfunctional, and thus some portions may be more reliable than others (one hopes).

      20

  • #
    SteveS

    All cell phones constantly ping towers and your location and movement is known. In the US, without an App installed, maps were generated by cell tower info that showed the outflow of people from Mardis Gras festival to various parts of the US. Actually it was very interesting and clearly shows the problem created with mass gatherings.

    41

  • #
    SteveS

    All cell phones constantly ping towers and your location and movement is known. In the US, without an App installed, maps were generated by cell tower info that showed the outflow of people from Mardis Gras festival to various parts of the US. Actually it was very interesting and clearly shows the problem created with mass gatherings.

    11

  • #
    Robber

    CV19 Research by Doherty Institute published April 14
    As of 9th April 2020, our estimate of the symptomatic case detection rate for Australia is 93%.
    Analyses produced broadly consistent results showing that the effective reproduction number is likely less than 1.
    All three methods indicate that the COVID-19 epidemic in Australia is currently being suppressed sufficiently strongly to achieve Reff<1. If current measures were sustained indefinitely, and in the absence of imported cases or localised clusters, local elimination may be achievable.
    So they can now tell us what has been happening. But no modelling of future scenarios.
    Seems CMOs and CHOs want no risk outcomes, keeping most of us in isolation indefinitely.
    Meanwhile 7 day rolling average of new cases across Australia 49 per day, and in Victoria just 9 per day (but blew out to 17 cases today)
    CV19 is certainly suppressed, and getting close to eradication.
    Similar story in NZ now averaging 18 new cases per day.

    40

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      How fortunate we are that the government
      nd nobody else
      Listened to Doherty a week or two ago
      Then he was forecasting that elimination was impossible.
      He wanted Herd immunity !
      Bloody hell !
      is he an “expert’ ?

      11

      • #
        Kalm Keith

        I Do Not belong to a herd.

        I am part of a Community, and want Community Immunity.

        KK

        20

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          Well as we have no vaccine
          And getting the disease does NOT confer immunity
          I’d say that is a forlorn hope
          Unfortunately.

          Now you can red thumb me again KK.
          :-)

          21

          • #
            OriginalSteve

            Um…how do we know people dont have immunity once they see off the virus?

            30

            • #
              Bill In Oz

              O S
              1 : Because quite a few people have got the disease agin after being discharged from hospital
              2: Consider the case of children ; hardly any kids get sick with this virus. But kids are far more naive immunologically than adults because of less exposure to infectious diseases. ( That’s why we vaccinate children )
              3: Consider that far fewer women get sick with this disease than men. How can that be ? Humans do not have immune systems which are sex/gender based.
              4 : Are living entities we are programmed to conserve effort & energy for the regularly occurring infections that sweep through the population. That’s what our bodies prime our immune systems for. This Corona virus is NOVEL… And maybe our bodies don’t bother wasting energy & effort for rare events. So once it’s disposed of, the antibodies gradually die off. .

              21

  • #
    disorganise

    So the Wuhan lab was ordered to destroy all their synthetic Coronaviruses on Jan 1st. Which is a strange thing to do if a similar, but different virus was evolving in the Fish Market around the corner. But it’s the obvious thing to do if a careless lab member made a mistake and leaked it from the lab. Especially if those viruses had distinctive HIV sequences embedded in them. Which the man who discovered HIV says they do.
    Nobel prize winner Prof Montagnier says that to insert HIV sequences “can only be done in a lab”:

    Dr Luc Montagnier the man who discovered the HIV virus back in 1983 disagrees and is saying that the virus was man made.

    Sorry, but who/what is Dr/Prof Montagnier disagreeing with? I’m guessing this was an editing error else I’m just very confused :)

    31

  • #
    WXcycles

    Data we ought to know and don’t know about the Chinese virus #coronavirus

    2 hours ago April 17, 2020 By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

    … However, a report issued April 16 by the Office for National Statistics points out that deaths are registered up to five days after they occur, and that the numbers given in HM Government’s daily briefings carefully exclude all deaths that do not occur in hospitals. Correcting for these two serious errors indicates that the true number of deaths is about 50% greater than the Government’s cited figures, implying that in the UK the deaths from this dangerous pathogen are already approaching 22,000. …

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/04/17/data-we-ought-to-know-and-dont-know-about-the-chinese-virus/

    A very popular ruse.

    Everyone playing hide the bodies to fool themselves and others as if adding lies to somehow beat off a virus will improve the country’s prospects or build and preserve trust and confidence of a population in the short-term-ism fakers who insist on a right to power, and a right to their snout in the trough of taxpayers.

    80

  • #
    Ian Wilson

    Off-topic, but very pertinent to Jo’s West Australian power grid.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-18/covid-led-drop-in-energy-use-risks-system-overload/12150030?sf232920205=1&fbclid=IwAR0_NjARXHXuMfJcA3m1uNBBcHXTq81pWMyp0E51gQ8qnFEuQZfttAjfS_w

    Falling power use due to coronavirus risks system overload and blackouts, experts warn

    80

  • #
    Peter C

    There is currently no evidence to support the belief that people who have recovered from coronavirus then have immunity, the World Health Organisation has said.
    Senior WHO epidemiologists warned despite the hopes governments across the world have piled on antibody tests, there is no proof those who have been infected cannot be infected again.

    https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/coronavirus/no-evidence-that-people-who-have-survived-coronavirus-have-immunity-says-world-health-organisation/ar-BB12OQ4b?ocid=spartanntp

    My question is: If recovered patients do not have immunity, then how did they recover in the first place?
    Surely they must have at least temporary immunity?

    60

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      I know next to nothing about immunity but your question has a sense of logic about it.

      Their statement sounds designed to create dependency in that we can only trust in the governing class.

      41

    • #

      Wage, wage war against the lying and the fright.

      52

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      The body produces antibodies which can eliminate the virus.
      But how long do these antibodies hang about ?
      That is the key question.
      As this is a rare/first time attack
      The body may be programmed to dispose of the antibodies shortly after
      Why ?
      Because our bodies are programmed to spend energy on the big regular risks
      Not the rare one off one.

      20

      • #
        PeterS

        So does that mean vaccines are of little use? After all that’s how they are suppose to work. They make the body produce antibodies so that it remembers for future infections up to a certain time.

        30

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          Peter we have known about corona viruses for a long while.
          There are NO vaccines for any of them.

          Please read my own comment below.

          And even better read E M Smith’s on Chiefio’s blog
          Link also below.

          Bill

          41

  • #
    Philip Mulholland

    Frozen in place.
    Hiding in plain sight.
    As the great beast stalks by.

    30

  • #
    Bill In Oz

    Words of insight from E M Smith on Chiefio blog. Much to think about here
    our Immune system & a Vaccine ?

    One big issue still in the early “problem admiration” phase:

    Very low symptom folks beat the virus using strong innate immunity. Many (% unknown) make no antibodies as the disease didn’t progress to that point.

    This matters in several ways:
    Their plasma is unsuited for therapy in others.
    They may not have permanent immunity (unknown long term).
    Antibody testing will miss them.
    Reinfection could be much worse.

    It is the older folks with antibody production that tend to crash as the HIV like spike protein looks like it allows the virus to destroy white blood cells and take down the immune systrm. ADE Antibody Dependant Enhancement of infection may well be a big thing. That, then, if it happens, would make a vaccine more harm than help (as in SARS type one) and mean that a reinfection could be more lethal than the first exposure.

    In cases of ADE when antibodies are low enough the virus is not cleared by the immune system before it can shut down the white blood cells. The virus docks with the antibody, that docks with a WBC then instead of destroying the virus, the virus infects and kills the WBC. You are in a race condition between virus doubling and your WBC production. If you lose you die.

    In covid-19 cases there are drops of WBC counts in severe cases, so this isn’t entirely hypothetical.

    So while lots of folks with antibodies is most likely a good thing, it has the potential to mean a very bad 2nd wave of infections. This is part of why I’ve posted about things that raise your innate immunity, like lots of Vitamins A C D E and such.”

    Can the ‘contrarians’ here tell me what’s wrong with this ?

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      Bill In Oz

      Well I’m in moderation again!
      :-(

      I quoted E M Smith instead of providing a link maybe

      Ok here is a link : https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2020/04/17/reopening-the-u-s-economy/#comment-128598

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      Bill In Oz

      Mods & Jo
      I asked Em If I coud quote his comment. I jsut got this reply on the Chiefio blog:
      “@Bill In Oz:

      “@bill in Oz : You can quote any comment I make at Jo’s place.”

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      farmerbraun

      So the problem , if this is accepted , is that some people make no antibodies.
      Why ?
      “Because the disease did not progress to that point”

      This requires some elucidation , I suggest.

      The other “secondary” problem would be , of course , that “measures” in the Southern hemisphere would need to remain in place until the spring , at least.

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        farmerbraun

        And further, it is suggested in the quote that was provided here, that vaccination of those with no antibodies could produce a fatal result.

        The above contention is also worthy of further “admiration”.

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      • #
        Bill In Oz

        E M Smith is DESCRIBING what has been noticed by epidemiologists.
        In the fullness of time it may indeed be ‘elucidated’.
        I hope so.
        But that does not mean ignore the evidence before your eyes.

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    Kalm Keith

    Congratulations.

    To PF @ #3 above.

    You have broken the 30 barrier.

    Well done.

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    JanEarth

    I highlighted all of this a few days ago. You do need to be careful as we are dealing with propaganda from both sides.

    My take is the Chinese were working on the coronavirus. They had isolated a few strains and were working to understand them. The head of the lab was sloppy in her approach to biosecurity and it got out via a young scientist who subsequently died. She was patient zero. Since P4 lab was in Wuhan it was her who spread it to the city by visiting the market.

    The CCP then sacked the head of the Lab and replaced her with a military officer and proceeded to wipe out all evidence of their monumental cockup. With the CCP it is all about face. Xi Jingping then convened a special meeting to update biosecurity laws. I
    imagine that in future any head of a bio lab who lets this happen will be executed and have their organs harvested.

    Re the AIDS virus sequence in the S protein I have seen plenty of reports from well qualified virologists to say this is not unusual…these sequences are common in many Virus species. In this case I will defer to experts because this stuff is horrendously complicated and too much for my brain to comprehend.

    Bio warfare is a mistake and we should not go there. Virus do not recognise borders.

    I never attribute to malice what I can explain with stupidity. The Chinese can be incredibly stupid as was shown during their testing of anti satellite systems in 2007.

    The CCP are evil beyond any doubt…but the CIA are no angels and equally capable of pure evil.

    It does not matter any more… we are all being played by Virtuosos. There will be a major conflict in about 10 years time…maybe less. After that maybe the truth will come out.

    This time will be written about for the remainder of human history. We live in interesting times.

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  • #
    JanEarth

    OT

    Any other any suspicious observers here ?

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    JanEarth

    Bill quirky blog software coupled with human moderators… always an interesting combination. They do a good job here but sometimes you just have to wait. I bet your post appeared just after you posted your plea.

    Cheers

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    Meglort

    It is good that the world is waking up to this and I like the excellent summary.

    Data available early on but removed when the CCP deployed those 1600 cleaneruppers.
    Widely, before the western media started censoring things much more broadly too.

    I find it impossible to believe this was not well understood by certain governments in January. If we knew, they knew, my experience says that is almost a certainty.

    So this is all being stage managed to gently lead the sheeple from their sanitised bliss while reality gets drip fed or else our world is simply a tragic farce.

    A world so blind, media so maligned, governance so full of hubris, political correctness and scientific ineptitude, riddled with ratbags, malice and stupidity.

    Based on the last 4 months or so, this will likely not end well, whatever that end is.
    War, famine, pestilence. Who knows what on earth is in the path of this humanity.

    So when I need reassurance, I go to the ABC to be reminded that all is really fine.
    But I swear when I looked skywards, I saw a little trapdoor and man with a ladder…

    It must be time for my next pill.

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    DryLIberal

    Jo, your coverage of the pandemic has been great so far, but really The Epoch Times? A known front for Falun Gong who proclaim an impending apocalypse and have “railed against what [their leader] called the wickedness of homosexuality, feminism and popular music while holding that [their leader] is a god-like figure who can levitate and walk through walls.” I would be more skeptical of sources such as this.

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    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Ohh dear A
      Another CCP Troll !
      Read their online paper a while
      On China they get things right …

      And since when have the Falun Gong meditation Tai Chi groups been a threat to China ?
      It was the CCP who arrested and held without trial many thousands of this movement.
      And many fled into exile
      Naturally they don’t like the CCP
      But they do have the contacts & family links in China.
      That means they a are very well informed.

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      • #
        DryLIberal

        No, I’m saying be extremely skeptical of sources like this. They have all the hallmarks of an apocalyptic cult.

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        • #
          Meglort

          As a matter of fact, Epoch Times has been far more factual in their reporting than dubious and discredited organisations like WHO and outright misinformation and propagandised swill from apocalyptic cults like the ABC.

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        • #
          Meglort

          As a matter of fact, Epoch Times has been far more factual in their reporting than dubious and discredited organisations like WHO and outright misinformation and propagandised swill from apocalyptic cults like the ABC.

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    Choroin

    Wonderful !!

    Airborne AIDS … geez, can’t wait for this one to mutate into something more ‘colourful’.

    Guess this explains why CoV-2 can deactivate and infect T-cells unlike CoV-1.

    Imagine some scientist in a lab being like “I know, I’ll splice human immune virus into a highly contagious, highly developed bat-sourced respiratory virus! Brilliant!!”

    The misanthropist 12 Monkeys greenies must be popping the champagne corks in glee right now.

    Thanks China, good work, really great work, now we finally get the day of reckoning.

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  • #
    cedarhill

    Some doctors views on “opening” up the US. Regardless, the points they make should be the ones people focus on today? At least the fabled “starting a dialog”.

    https://medium.com/@jbgeach/changing-the-goalposts-four-more-reasons-it-is-safe-to-open-america-560cfc0ab4c3

    And the title seems appropriate since it reflects the history of humans in that once power is seized or given huge resistance to relinquishing it back to those that granted it. Lot’s of history were it was never relinquished voluntarily.

    As a kicker for those locked down and needing something to ponder, the following describes what lack of immunity due to isolation can do to a population:

    “491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus”, 2005, Charles C. Mann

    We should be thankful for evolution to have prepared most of us for a novel strain and perhaps not proceed too far to stomping out contagions unless and until we have nearly 100% eradication capabilities?

    Topics for the Idle Times.

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    Reg Po

    CSIRO in Geelong helping out…..

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    Kalm Keith

    A vision for the future.

    Jo, could you give your outline to our PM, he desperately needs something positive like this to focus on.

    http://joannenova.com.au/2020/04/the-first-synthetic-pandemic-man-who-discovered-hiv-says-coronavirus-is-man-made-ccp-destroyed-the-evidence/#comment-2313476

    KK

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    Karl

    Any information from “Epoch Times” or related media is from a Chinese cult called “Falun Gong” and should be regarded as suspect.

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      robert rosicka

      Couldn’t agree more we should be relying on trusted news sources from the CCP the ABC and the Guardian to name but a few .

      Sarc off !

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    Morphy

    I want to remind you that the head of the World Health Organisation has stated many times that there is no evidence that the new coronavirus was produced in the laboratory.

    The same WHO that’s in the (backhander) PAY of China and deliberately delayed any normal-level responses to the outbreak?

    Yeah, REAL trustworthy source…

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    ramblingidiot

    I have been looking up RaTG13 the batcoronavirus that is 96% compatible with SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes Covid-19) and there is some interesting stuff.

    The Wuhan Institute of Virology claims to have isolated this virus from bat faeces in 2013 but only registered its genome with the international database on 27-01-2020 after the Covid-19 disaster. Apparently it is an attempt to show that similar coronaviruses have been found in nature and thus the virus is not man-made.

    However, why wait 7 years to register the genome? It looks like they were using the RaTG13 virus for research purposes and thus kept it a secret. SARS-CoV-2 differs from RaTG13 in that its spike head proteins are far more compatible with the human ACE2 receptor than RaTG13′s spike proteins, and a ‘furin cleavage site’ is present (which RaTG13 does not have) which also increases infectivity. This feature has something to do with the virus using furin, one of the body’s enzymes, to help it merge with the cell wall prior to injecting its RNA into the cell.

    This article:
    https://bbs.wenxuecity.com/currentevent/2023495.html

    suggests that the mutations to RaTG13 are not random but clustered around the spike protein (S). This suggests that the RaTG13 may have been subject to a form of accelerated evolution by passing it through ferret populations in the lab. Ferrets have almost identical ACE2 receptors to humans.

    What’s interesting about the dozens of articles I have read by scientists loudly bleating that virus is natural and not bio-engineered, is that they all keep quiet about this process of passing a virus through ferret populations in order to obtain mutations that are favourable to their research goals. They all use this method but they don’t want you to know about it.

    That’s because the end product is natural looking genome since the mutations occurred by natural selection. Instead they raise up a straw man by saying that since there are no indications of gene splicing etc, therefore the virus is not a product of bio-engineering.

    The following articles are interesting in this respect:

    https://harvardtothebighouse.com/2020/03/19/china-owns-nature-magazines-ass-debunking-the-proximal-origin-of-sars-cov-2-claiming-covid-19-wasnt-from-a-lab/

    https://harvardtothebighouse.com/2020/03/23/no-monkey-ever-reheated-a-frozen-burrito-what-the-expanse-tells-us-about-the-covid-19-pandemic/

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    • #
      Mike Mitchell

      “far more compatible with the human ACE2 receptor than RaTG13′s spike proteins,”

      It appears to me that that’s exactly what this 2015 Wuhan research mentioned – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26552008

      The results indicate that group 2b viruses encoding the SHC014 spike in a wild-type backbone can efficiently use multiple orthologs of the SARS receptor human angiotensin converting enzyme II (ACE2), replicate efficiently in primary human airway cells and achieve in vitro titers equivalent to epidemic strains of SARS-CoV.

      They go on to note how infectious it is .. IN VIVO!

      Additionally, in vivo experiments demonstrate replication of the chimeric virus in mouse lung with notable pathogenesis.

      Somebody needs to confront these authors -

      University of North Carolina:
      Menachery VD
      Yount BL Jr
      Gralinski LE
      Plante JA
      Scobey T1
      Donaldson EF
      Graham RL
      Debbink K
      Baric RS
      Randell SH

      FDA: Agnihothram S

      Wuhan:
      Ge XY
      Shi ZL

      Switzerland: Lanzavecchia A

      Harvard Medical School & Dana Farber Cancer Institute: Marasco WA

      Here’s page on Dr. Wayne Maraco at Harvard – https://www.dfhcc.harvard.edu/insider/member-detail/member/wayne-a-marasco-md-phd/ Of note:

      Ongoing pre-clinical studies and clinical trials using human monoclonal antibodies (Mabs) are moving forward for the prevention and treatment of SARS and flavivirus diseases including West Nile virus encephalitis. We are also moving forward with a genetic/cellular therapy for the treatment of RCC.

      If this pandemic is his idea of “moving forward” I shutter to think what backwards could mean?

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    Mike Mitchell

    There’s no question it was synthesized in the Wuhan lab because here is the research paper to PROVE that is exactly what they doing back in 2015 .. along with US scientists from Harvard, Dana-Farber, UNC and even the FDA! https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26552008

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    NZer

    If any potential conspiracy theories are to be considered (leaving you to consider any possible motives), and with no intention here of defending CCP esp. if they really destroyed evidence/data/research, if a power were going to plant a biological agent (a pandemic virus) somewhere, would not the wet market (known to sell ex-lab animals) near the Wuhan lab (known to be lax) be THE best choice, with two perfectly plausible contesting causes to be argued over, while any other possible source becomes disregarded or not even thought about or looked for ?
    If powers can get deadly nerve agents into UK and into airports, then they can get a virus anywhere anytime.
    All you would need is some intel on what is researched in the target initial outbreak nation or the ‘to be held responsible’ nation, and the ability to synthesize something similar that has their ‘fingerprint’ characteristics, and release it.
    Although it appears dead certain where it came from and why, *in theory* the links back to Russia and N.Korea for nerve-agents could even be done this way too.
    (Can I reserve the movie rights?)

    00