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But weren’t solar panels supposed to stop bushfires?

Scenes of Armageddon in New South Wales today and people are calling it a climate emergency on twitter. Ban new coal mines! Blame Tony Abbott!  (See #nswbushfires). So far there are three deaths, and 150 houses lost (at least). The latest report tonight from @NSW RFS is that at 12:30am, there were 74 bush fires across NSW, 43 still not under control.

Wow. That is a lot of forest being converted into cloud in that satellite image.

Fires, tweet. Coal and climate change

 

Too much fuel causes extreme bush fires, not climate change

67 years of hazard reduction in Western Australia shows exactly how to control wildfires. It’s just chemistry.

We leave all that fuel lying around then get surprised when it burns? Western Australia fire management burns off about 8% of the forest under management each year — a one in 12 year rotation. Californian management burns once every 500 years.

The men with decades of experience, and indigenous practices estimate that a six year rotation is better.

Bushfires, graph, Western Australia, 50 years of hazard reduction graphed.

More prescribed burns means less wildfire area burnt.  Source: Bushfirefront Western Australia

More posts about Fires:

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555 comments to But weren’t solar panels supposed to stop bushfires?

  • #

    It wasn’t that long ago?
    1951 “Normally the fire season is
    from July 1 to January 30. It
    has been extended to June 30.”
    Dry cold helps bushfires.
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/50093166

    162

    • #

      It also requires gullible and stupid governments to ignore all sane principles of forest management and bow down to the Greens and their illogical feelings.

      I’m just awaiting what happens this summer in Victoria with almost no fuel reduction burning at all. And now that the Kremlin has declared that all logging in native forests will be banned (with thousands of job losses and probably town closures), just wait and see how that pans out in a few years after full closure.

      The Leadbeaters possum won;t stand a chance come the wildfires.

      511

      • #

        “It also requires gullible and stupid governments”
        Oh yes that certainly makes it worse but gone are the days of 800 mile (1287kM)long fires thanks to the hard efforts of those who lived before the great stupidity epidemic.
        Note a lot but not all of these fires below are harmless, sensible and deliberate.
        “TOWNSVILLE, Sunday. — Fires
        are burning to-night in an almost
        unbroken chain from the edge of
        Brisbane to Townsville, 800 miles
        distant.
        July 1946.
        https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/49348938

        240

      • #
        Bill in Oz

        I’ve lived in the bush since 1985.
        Always I took care to ensure that native fire prone vegetation was well away from my homes.
        But many newcomers in the bush do not do this or do . ot want to do this.
        They love the bush and the wildlife and want them close by their homes.
        And so they live in potential fire traps.

        310

        • #
          theRealUniverse

          I can never understand why those bush lovers get so up close and personal with highly flammable brush around their property.

          100

          • #
            OriginalSteve

            Uh oh….people are starting to think for themselves….it appears the greenists now panicking – trying to force people back to toe the climate line…..
            All bad things must be climate change…..

            https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-11/carol-sparks-climate-change-federal-government-claire-pontin/11691444

            “Regional mayors criticise politicians for failing to link climate change and deadly bushfires

            “Mayors from fire-ravaged areas of New South Wales have said there is no doubt in their minds that the devastating blazes tearing through their communities are a result of climate change.

            “Carol Sparks, the Mayor of Glen Innes, where two people died at the weekend, called on Mr McCormack to refer to scientific evidence before commenting further.

            “”I think that Michael McCormack needs to read the science, and that is what I am going by, is the science,” she said.

            “”It is not a political thing — it is a scientific fact that we are going through climate change.”

            >>>>> OK…now at this point I’m laughing rather hard…..need to get some popcorn….

            “Their comments are a rebuke to senior leaders within the state and federal governments, including Prime Minister Scott Morrison and Deputy PM Michael McCormack, who have criticised people for linking the current deadly bushfires to climate change.

            “Three people died in fires across the state at the weekend, with the State Government declaring a state of emergency amid predicted catastrophic conditions and predictions that the coming days will see “the most dangerous bushfire week this nation has ever seen”.

            “”What people need now is a little bit of sympathy and understanding and real assistance, they need help, they need shelter,” Mr McCormack said on ABC Radio National this morning.

            “”They don’t need the ravings of some pure enlightened and woke capital city greenies at this time when they are trying to save their homes.”

            “Responding directly to the comments made by the Deputy PM this morning, Mid Coast mayor Claire Pontin said she felt “cranky” when she heard Mr McCormack say that “we’ve had fires in Australia since time began”.

            “”They need to get out and have a real look at what’s happening to this country,” Ms Pontin said.

            >>>>>***************************************************************************************************
            “”We’ve not had situations like that. Fifty years ago, this would never happen.”
            >>>>>***************************************************************************************************

            >>>>>Um…yes it has….1939 anyone?

            “Ms Pontin said the issue went beyond politics and said it was essential to talk about climate change when considering how to respond to the bushfires.

            “”We don’t have capital city greenies around here, we have farmers coming to us and saying, “look what’s happened to my farm, I can’t afford to feed the cows anymore because I’ve been buying feed for the last 18 months,” she said.

            “”It’s just ridiculous.

            20

            • #
              yarpos

              Hard to beleive we had a couple hundred dead just 10 years ago in VIC. Still we have learned nothing and still we babble about the “unprecedented” events (and yes I know there are plenty of others, its just the area where I live)

              10

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            They don’t understand the bush.

            Why do they want to be so close to something that they don’t relate to?

            Modern life is weird.

            00

    • #
      glen Michel

      Try and tell that to dopey people who panic at the first sign of danger. Try and tell that tha combination of medium term climatic factors and fire load effects outcomes such as this conflagration. A lot of people at RFS are inexperienced and its leaders are told to use the term “climate change ” at every turn.

      371

      • #
        PeterW

        A cynic might think that “climate change” is a no-fault argument for bigger budgets…… unlike management failure.

        150

      • #

        I’ve been watching some of the morning news and not one word about poor forestry management practices. All that some people are talking about is that there wasn’t enough warning. How much warning do people need? And when warnings are given, some simply refuse to leave.

        But isn’t this going to be great fodder for the climate change industry?

        360

        • #
          Maptram

          After the Tasmanian bushfires, the Greens and fellow travellers blamed climate change. However a few months ago there was was a program on the ABC (of all places) where it was said that lack of access roads and lack of weather monitoring equipment to provide better warning were contributors to the damage. The same could be applied to many areas that have been locked up by environmentalists.

          31

    • #
      Michael262

      Of course the real point of this piece is that our more frequent heat waves exacerbate things, good work Jo.

      623

  • #
    John F. Hultquist

    Fires require fuel, oxygen, and a spark.
    A study in the western USA showed that something humans
    are involved with provide 80+% of the sparks.
    That’s a place to intervene. Still, . . .

    As this post indicates, reducing fuel is essential.

    280

    • #
      PeterW

      John….

      While the ignition source appears to be a factor under our control, we need to be aware that (a) our ability to control it in practice is somewhat limited and (b) that placing too much emphasis on this one aspect distracts from the more important aspects of fire mitigation.

      Apart from publicly hanging arsonists and letting their bodies rot in chains from a public gibbet, we have probably addressed the most significant sources of preventable human-caused ignition. We no longer have steam-engines dropping ash directly onto the ground beneath them. We no longer have itinerant workers lighting campfires to cook food every meal in the bush. We no longer have unrestricted rights for landholders to burn off…… and smoking in standing fuel will earn you a major fine if you are reported. We have standards for machinery and standards for electricity and standards for most ignition sources. …….. what else do you imagine that we can (cost-effectively) do?

      Keep in mind that a great many fires categorised as “human-caused” do harm to the property of those who “caused” them. Machinery is a major cause, as are haystacks. We aren’t careless about that, just faced with constraints.

      There will be fires. We must be prepared for them. The idea that we can prevent them all is part of the problem,

      Cheers….. Peter.

      230

      • #
      • #
        John F. Hultquist

        Just one example:
        We have fires every year when autos or trucks catch fire and the driver pulls to the side of the road into dry grass.
        Why not stop in the middle of the road?

        33

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          John

          There’s danger in stopping in the middle of the road and local authorities need to do their jobs and keep road verges free of combustible material.

          130

        • #
          PeterW

          John….

          It’s one of the unintended consequences of Catalytic Converters. They run hot enough to ignite dry material, and they are located under the body of the car.

          It’s onr reason why all of my road vehicles are diesel.

          100

          • #
            Dennis

            I hope you understand that on the latest diesels the particulate filter automatically burns the particulates collected when the filter is full, and that is a major potential fire hazard.

            On my 4WD there is a gauge showing the condition of the filter and it can be emptied before going into grass etc.

            110

            • #
              PeterW

              Dennis…. yes.

              It’s also one reason why I drive older diesels (another unintended consequence of regulation) and specifically ordered my next tractor in the older configuration.

              PF.
              Cigarettes are already illegal in standing fuels. It’s illegal to dispose of the butts out the window and they are heavily taxed at retail to discourage purchase. What else do you suggest?

              But at least you are thinking of something instead of just parroting Gerbil Warming.

              110

            • #
              robert rosicka

              Toyota are in the middle of a crisis with their DPF’s renowned to be faulty and can do a burn at any time .
              I think there’s a class action on at the moment .

              60

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        Cigarettes?

        112

    • #
      theRealUniverse

      Yes fires cant ignite at 40+ degrees they need sparks at ignition temperature. Of course once one gets going it can start others from wind blown embers as I guess allot of that is happening.

      30

      • #
        theRealUniverse

        Also in NZ, Central Otago which gets as dry as Aus sometimes (exept when it snows)
        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/117304108/fire-near-middlemarch-in-rural-otago-contained

        10

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-10/nsw-weather-conditions-ease-but-high-risk-fires-expected/11690080

        Just my thoughts , but if serious fires start in sydney ( and anywhere else currently ) if it can be shown its due to lack of harard reduction burning, those responsible need to feel the full weight of a legal class action.

        Why should a stupid green ideology be allowed to put families and children at risk?

        90

        • #
          AndyG55

          Very little hazard fuel reductions over the last several years in Sydney, Hunter or Central Coast.

          Fuel loads are high.

          And the hot drying blustery westerly due next Tuesday could certainly cause some real issues. !

          53

      • #
        John F. Hultquist

        I don’t know the specifics of the fire behavior in NSW.
        Depending on what is burning, embers can travel long distances, and if large enough, do not burn up prior to landing.
        A recent example of this was from a fire in Oregon when embers crossed the Columbia River and started new fires in Washington. Fire fighters there monitored the sky and tried to get to any falling embers before a new fire could grow.
        Photo of a tree “candling” or torching:
        East Rim Fire , Ponderosa Pine
        Search on that name for more.

        Another: Pole Creek Fire

        10

        • #
          beowulf

          John
          The up-drafts generated by large eucalyptus fires are tremendous. During one fire, landing in our backyard were not just embers, but entire twigs up to pencil thickness with leaves still flaming. That was happening in hundreds of backyards. The nearest fire front was over 10km (6 miles) away and I have no doubt some twigs went further than that.

          Spotting ahead of the main fire front is a very big deal in Oz bushfire behaviour. One historic fire in my district jumped 4 major rivers and ripped across about 130km in 2 days with a hot roaring westerly wind behind it. The only way it could travel so far so quickly is by continuously spotting, jumping ground. What stopped it in the end was the Pacific Ocean.

          20

    • #
      Lank fires up

      Why isn’t the dreaded carbon dioxide actually used to fight bush fires? It is used in the many portable extinguishers and very common in home and office.
      Clearly it would make sense for bush fires to be smothered by directed bursts of CO2 rather than water. CO2 can be made on site rather than using precious fresh water transported from distant dams or the salty sea water which will detract from soil quality. The CO2 may also help plant regeneration after a fire event.
      There are already large truck mountable arrays of CO2 extinguishers available which could be trialed. http://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/co2-flooding-system-fm-200-9209325191.html... “CO2 at atmospheric pressure is a colorless,odorless and electrically Non conductive inert gas,it has high expansion ratio which facilities rapid discharge and allows three dimensional quick penetration in the entire hazard area. Made from premium quality components,this system”s importance lies in the fact that it has high efficiency to extinguish fire by reducing the oxygen contents of the protected area blow the point where it can support combustion. It provides a blanket of heavy gas that reduces the oxygen content of the atmosphere to a point where combustion is not Sustainable. It provides its own pressure for discharging through Valves. Pipe work and Nozzles.”

      20

  • #
    Kalm Keith

    This fire catastrophe has been caused wholly and solely by bloody mindedness at Local and State government levels.

    Any sane, rational analysis of the Victorian Fire Tragedy should have been all the confirmation needed that something was wrong, but no, it seems that a similar catastrophe was needed in NSW.

    Surely they’ll fix it now and stop making it impossible to protect yourself from inevitable fires.

    Won’t they?

    And the politicians will tell us that California has nothing to do with our situation.

    http://joannenova.com.au/2019/11/weekend-unthreaded-285/#comment-2218077

    KK

    170

  • #
    OriginalSteve

    The first thought i had was whether there was a correlation between previous backburning activities and fuel load / fire intensity.

    I suspect Fitz will be all ready to roll on the climate monsense over this , but probably hasnt worked out whether fuel load was a significant factor in even her local fire – which I asked her to do, to prove my hypotesis wrong.

    150

  • #
    PeterW

    Where there is dry fuel, there will be fires.

    Where there is a LOT of dry fuel, there will be large, lethal fires.

    Part of the problem, here, is people adopting a calendar-based mindset. Fuel management burns should be carried out when the fuel reaches appropriate moisture levels, not according to a “plan” drawn up months earlier. Every farmer, forester and anyone who lives and works IN the environment stays constantly aware of the changes in moisture and vegetation. Bureaucrats in offices, not so much.

    240

    • #
      David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

      G’day,
      In 2003 a major bushfire destroyed 470 houses and killed 4 people in Canberra, quite a large town (Wikipedia numbers).
      In 2019 several major bushfires are burning in NE NSW. Already over 150 houses are reported destroyed and some people have died.
      I ask, “Are there any parallels?”, and suggest there are:

      In both cases, significant fires had been burning for weeks to the west of affected properties;
      hot, dry weather preceded the emergency; hot, strong westerly winds were forecast for days ahead of the emergency; and the forest areas between the earlier fires and the areas experiencing damage had been accumulating debris for decades.

      The 2018 Tathra fire burnt over 100 “structures”, and, while there were no deaths and no earlier fire, the rest of the above was true there also.

      So, “unprecedented” is, in my view an inappropriate word to describe the current situation, but used on the ABC news as I draft this on Saturday, November 9. The number may be, but the situations are not.

      I was given some fire fighting training in National Service back in 1957, where we were told fire needs three things to continue burning: heat, fuel and oxygen. Take any one away and there can be no fire. Similar comments have been made here earlier today.
      For a bushfire the statement remains true, and the only one that is controllable by man is fuel, at least in the Australian summer environment. And you’ve got to do that before the fire starts. And, as others have commented, the more fuel the hotter the fire.
      Some years back the CSIRO produced a book on bushfires which stated that fire intensity was proportional to various other factors, and to the square of the fuel load. (Sorry I can’t immediately find my copy.) And that a useable average increase in fuel load is about one tonne per hectare per year in our forested areas. So, assuming the intensity of a fire one year after a bushfire has gone through is 1 unit, after 2 years it’d be 4 of those units,… after 7 49 and after PF’s 20 years 400. Too hot to control.

      I have a school time memory , following major fires in the Royal National Park outside Sydney, and in the Blue Mountains, of someone saying that least those areas won’t burn again for at least 7 years. Which now sounds optimistic to me, with an intensity multiplier of 49.
      ….
      Controlled fuel reduction won’t remove bushfires, but it can reduce their intensity to controllable levels.
      ….
      (I read an article a few years back which claimed that the intensity level actually increased with the cube of fuel load, but can’t confirm that.)

      Cheers
      Dave B

      90

      • #
        David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

        Here’s the book reference:
        “The complete bushfire safety book” Joan Webster Random House Australia, 1986, my version 2000, p43.

        40

  • #
    John in Oz

    There is nothing on the graph to indicate the area it refers to.

    A state, Australia, California?

    This info would assist in answering the doom-sayers, although it seems obvious that controlled burn-offs will reduce the intensity of fires regardless.

    70

  • #
    Lionell Griffith

    In one breath, the left of left advocate “common sense gun control” which, when translated, means to take by force guns from individuals who obey the law and don’t kill people. In the next breath, they oppose “common sense forest/bush fire control” and are willing to accept the destruction of vast regions of forest/bush, the buildings in them, as well as all the wild life that can’t outrun the fires.

    The interesting thing: either position does not contain one iota of anything called “common sense”. It is nothing but and expression of pure unadulterated malevolent hatred for any living thing – especially humans.

    232

    • #
      PeterW

      Lione….

      The other difference is that there is a clear cause/effect relationship between fuel management and fire intensity in the scientific literature.

      There is no such proven relationship between gun-grabbing and reduced homicide rates. (Most of those nations with above-average homicide rates have exactly the restrictions that the Left advocate).

      101

      • #
        • #
          PeterW

          Keith…..

          In an ideal world there would be no murders….. In the meantime, Mexico has just one gun-shop, controlled by the Army, and a crime problem that makes the US look good.

          Suicide is a red herring.
          Speaking as someone who was once sufficiently depressed to contemplate that act, I must argue that suicidal people are HURTING, not STUPID.

          We know that there are many available methods and we know the difference between permanently lethal and recoverable methods of suicide. Pretending that removing just one method, without dealing with the hurt that is the root cause, is callous in the extreme. It may give the legislators the warm fuzzies, but it leaves those in trouble without hope, without resources and without care. Like I said, “callous”.

          Incidentally, there is a strong correlation between suicide and societal control……

          140

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            If I was meant to take exception to your comment I have.

            Please don’t attribute “beliefs” to me that I don’t subscribe to.

            How many “dead” children from playing with guns in the home?

            Why was the topic of guns even raised here?

            Please re-read my original comment.

            13

            • #
              PeterW

              KK….

              You raised suicide as a question. I accept that you did so as one enquiring after knowledge and my answer was intended to indicate how serious the topic is. That is not an attack on you, personally, and I see no reason why you should take offence…..

              Child-safety is also a valid question, and the answer is partly that the real risk is tiny…… and partly that education is more effective than regulation. Firearms are not a unique source of risk, either in regard to frequency or severity. The same people who leave loaded firearms around for children are those who ignore laws aimed at stopping them doing so. They also leave children in the bath unsupervised, ride in cars without seatbelts and play with matches. (To bring thediscussion back on topic.)

              80

        • #
          OriginalSteve

          In London, thier murder rate is higher than New York but its predimibately knife crime. If you take away one thing people will use something else.

          The Left advocate gun control for control, its an anti-freedom thing, nothing to do with law and order.

          80

      • #
        Lionell Griffith

        This is why I claim that their goal is neither to reduce murders by eliminating legal use of guns nor reduce forest/bush wild fires. It is the destruction of living things BECAUSE they are alive. They do this by freeing the criminals in their illegal use of guns and increase the intensity and speed of spread of wild fires by requiring the build up of fuel for the fires. They especially and particularly intend to achieve their malevolent ends and only pretend to mean well.

        It is not what you say that counts, it is what you repeatedly achieve by your actions even as you pretend you want to achieve otherwise.

        30

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      Hi Lionell,

      There’s a huge difference between the USA and Australia in the origins of gun usage and control. The one thing that both countries have in common is that their governments have failed to control criminal elements and that opens up the need for self protection in some locations. Another aspect of gun need arises with farmers and those living more than 10 minutes response time from police help. If I was on an isolated farm I would own a gun.

      In a perfect world only the police would be armed, if you can trust your government.
      The other issue, benefiting from a no guns in the home policy, is the Del Shannon syndrome.

      The world is a complicated place.

      KK

      31

      • #
        PeterW

        KK….

        It’s a side-track, but speaking as a farmer, protecting my sheep is considered a legitimate reason to own a firearm. Protecting myself or my family is not.

        Do you remember the Stoccos? A father-son pair of thuggish predators who made a habit of preying on isolated farmers? After 18? years of the Howard gun-grab, they used banned firearms to avoid arrest by attempting to murder a Policeman, just around the corner from my home. They abandoned their vehicle and took to the bush on the boundary of a property owned by a cousin on mine with a young family.

        Yet if I confessed to sleeping with a loaded shotgun next to the bed for the next couple of weeks, I would be confessing to breaking the law. This is gun-control. It is ignored by criminals and has its greatest effect on those who are not the problem in the first place.

        Oh and incidentally, historically the incidence of violent crime has decreased as personal firearms became more readily available. Despite the Kung-fu movies, the only way in which an average or below-average person can successfully deter a larger, stronger thug – or group of thugs – is with a firearm.

        170

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          Did you not read my original comment where I said two things:

          If I lived in an isolated area, farm, I would own a gun,

          and

          The police (read government) are failing in their duty by not putting criminals in gaol.

          Why beat me over the head with stuff about John Howard?
          He lost me when he failed to confront the French in the Pacific.
          Then he did the right thing with the gun buy back.

          And then failed to halt criminals importing guns and failed to locate those guns and goal those responsible for the importation and possession.

          Gun possession by ordinary citizens shouldn’t be a right, but unfortunately, in far too many situations, it has become a necessity where society has failed.

          And please, your implication that I lacked empathy with the people committing suicide, where did that come from?
          I do take offense at that.

          KK

          12

          • #
            PeterW

            KK.

            NO.
            As I said before, my point is that the LEGISLATORS lack empathy and understanding when they produce ineffective faux-solutions to suicide. To reiterate, you asked a question and I answered it.

            Secondly…. Yes, Howard hid from his responsibility to deal appropriately with failures of law enforcement. To go right to the root of it, Martin Bryant – the murderer whose actions provided the alleged incentive for the confiscations – obtained and owned the firearms he used ILLEGALLY. The failure was NOT legal loopholes or insufficient laws, but of government to enforce existing laws. Nobody in Police or Government ever accepted responsibility for that failure.

            Embarking on an expensive, abusive (a million law-abiding Australians were represented as a danger to society and made de-facto criminals by a stroke of a pen) strategy that had no support in the research and no effect in the people who are actually the problem, is not the “right thing”.

            It was all political.

            I do not blame you for not knowing that background or the criminology underpinning what I say, but you have no cause to be offended.

            100

    • #
      ivan

      An interesting point, I live in the mountains of Southern France and the law says that every property owner is responsible for keeping their property free of extraneous burnable matter. In fact if you don’t clear the property the local council will turn up and clear it for you and charge you 1.5 times the cost of doing so. No one is exempt farmers, those growing olives on the mountain sides, householders, absent owners (those that have property they only visit in July or August holidays).

      Maybe if such thinking was applied by state governments in Australia there wouldn’t be such bad fires – they didn’t happen in the past when there was proper forest management so why now? Is it just stupidity or the green blob exerting pressure?

      310

      • #
        David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

        G’day Ivan,
        A large number of the fires in NE NSW are burning in state controlled National,Parks, so the land owner is the government.
        Cheers
        Dave B

        170

        • #
          Dennis

          Former PM Tony Abbott was asked about establishing more National Parks and, also being a volunteer fire fighter of decades past and present time, he said that there are too many of them already that the taxpayers cannot afford to manage.

          “NSW National Parks and Wildlife Service is part of the Department of Planning, Industry and Environment.

          We manage over 7 million hectares of land across NSW, including more than 870 national parks and reserves, 4 World Heritage-listed sites, a number of Australian National Heritage sites and 17 Ramsar wetlands. These protected areas play a critical role in conserving biodiversity, as well as natural and cultural heritage.

          Some areas protect delicate ecosystems and habitat which is home to threatened native species. Certain sites provide shelter for a large and diverse collection of historic and cultural heritage. In other reserves, we provide facilities such as picnic areas, boardwalks and lookouts so you can enjoy these special areas.

          Everyone is invited to visit, explore, and enjoy these special places. Join our commitment to their protection and enhancement, so that generations to come may also experience the natural beauty of our parks. We welcome you on a journey of discovery, and thank you for treading softly in these unique and precious environments.”

          When our first pre-UN National Park caught fire in the mid-1990s it was reported that National Parks & Wildlife were not managing the fire hazards as well as the Water Board had been doing when they were responsible for Park management. Obviously the green bug is alive and well at NNP&WS, and even though each state government is reponsible those areas are under a Commonwealth and State arrangement and under United Nations preservation or protection.

          50

          • #
            Dennis

            Protected areas of Australia include Commonwealth and off-shore protected areas managed by the Australian government, as well as protected areas within each of the six states of Australia and two self-governing territories, the Australian Capital Territory and the Northern Territory, which are managed by the eight state and territory governments.

            Commonwealth and off-shore protected areas in the Australian Capital Territory, the Northern Territory, the Christmas Island Territory, the Cocos (Keeling) Islands Territory, the Norfolk Island Territory and the Australian Antarctic Territory are managed by Director of National Parks, an agency within the Department of the Environment and Energy, with the exception of the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park, which is managed by the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority, a separate body within the department.

            Protected areas cover 895,288 km2 (345,673 sq mi) of Australia’s land area, or about 11.5% of the total land area. The Australian Capital Territory has the highest level of protection at nearly 55% of its territory, followed by Tasmania with nearly 40% and South Australia with 25%. Lowest level of protection is in Queensland and the Northern Territory with less than 6%.[1] Of all protected areas, two-thirds are considered strictly protected (IUCN categories I to IV), and the rest is mostly managed resources protected area (IUCN category VI). Over 80% of the protected area in Australia is publicly owned and managed by the Australian government or state and territory governments. The second largest component of protected areas are the Indigenous Protected Areas while only 0.3% are privately owned.[2]

            Wikipedia

            30

      • #

        Ivan, in Australia if someone clears a firebreak on their own property without asking permission and filling out the right forms we put them in jail.

        http://joannenova.com.au/2013/01/in-australia-if-you-try-to-clear-a-firebreak-on-your-land-you-could-go-to-gaol/

        Maxwell Szulc was a conscientious objector. This was civil disobedience, a deliberate protest, and on his own land. He feared fires from the state forest next to him. He was jailed for 15 months, and no journalists, no media — bar a couple of blogs like mine — even mentioned his case.

        Australia is the lucky country to the point of incapacitation. So much luck we forget how bad things can get.

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        • #
          ivan

          Jo, that sounds totally stupid to me. Where has the idea of personal responsibility gone or is it a case of everyone leaving everything to the government now. The first settlers might not have done everything right but they stood on their own feet and grew a nation. Noe it appears that nation is going backwards not forwards and is heading for third world status.

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        • #
          Sceptical Sam

          And, wasn’t he the chap whose house didn’t burn down when the fires came through?

          As I recall, he then sought the repayment of the $50,000 he was fined for undertaking the action outlined by Jo.

          Needless to say: they didn’t refund it to him. Nor did they give him back his 15 months he spent at Her Majesty’s pleasure.

          These left-wing green bureaucrats are the major part of the problem. They should be fired.

          50

        • #
          Screaming Nutbag

          Szulc cleared 345Ha knowing full well that what he was doing was nothing to do with fire management.

          10

  • #
    Dennis

    Caution, a real Aussie speaking Aussie about bushfires;

    From Morning Mail

    https://www.facebook.com/paul.bailey.7777019/videos/2358051624306587/

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    • #
      Kalm Keith

      That’s exactly the right message!!!

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    • #
      RickWill

      He would have a better message if expletives were deleted. He can be passionate without using such appalling language; just requires more thought.

      115

    • #
      robert rosicka

      Sorry Dennis didn’t see you already posted Paul’s video and I posted it down further .
      Sometimes it takes a guy like this to cut through the politically correct bs that always does the rounds after a fire flood or drought .
      Yesterday the vid had 25,000 shares which in itself says something to the actual message not the language, noticed out of all the comments only one complaint about the language which means the majority heard and understood the message not so much the language.

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      • #
        Yonniestone

        After recently looking at many social media comments and videos I’ll say Paul’s video is average to tame and actually in context.

        The censorship we grew up with via newspapers and Tv is completely gone, people are using expletives in everyday dialogue, tanks again Hollywood.

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    • #
      el gordo

      In the old days they burnt the undergrowth in the winter time, now wrapped up in green tape.

      Before Europeans arrived the locals on walkabout cleared away the deadwood along the trail, for domestic purposes, but it also provided safety in case of emergency. On the top end they walked and burnt the grassland along the way, as a buffer and escape route to prevent deaths in a conflagration.

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  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    At least PM Morrison hasn’t appeared on TV blaming the fires global warming … yet.

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  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    Of course fuel plays a part. So does soil moisture, fuel type, temperature, wind, aspect, etc. of course, Simplistic answers to complex problems are always wrong.

    Of course fire is endemic to Australian landscapes (not all though). According to data collected by Forrests NSW, most fires only burn around 1 hectare, and by most I mean 90%

    As I have been saying for the last 2 weeks, these fires are burning historically unburnt ecosystems. This many fires so early in the season, and covering so much of both NSW and Queensland is a wake up for everyone.

    As I’ve also said before, adding energy to the atmosphere in the form of heat is always going to make things worse. That is why STP is a common acronym in chemistry and physics.

    Notice I’ve not mentioned CO2 and man in this until now. But AGW via CO2 is behind all this.

    /I understand this and you don’t

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    • #
      PeterW

      “Simplistic answers are always wrong”….. that includes “climate change”

      “Most fires burn less than 1ha”….. because humans extinguish most of them as a matter of course.

      I”Historically unburned ecosystems”….. because humans have extinguished fires wherever possible for the last century.

      Fuel is the one aspect of fire that we can control and there is a huge amount of historical and experiential evidence that doing so reduces the severity of fires and the difficulty of defending against them. This has been accepted by every major enquiry – including Royal Commissions – into bushfires in Australia over the last 80 years.

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      • #
        Dennis

        Difficult to control when councils ban removal of potential fire fuel from the ground on farms by only allowing removal of around 35 per cent in any one year.

        And when green groups buy farms and allow them to become overgrown and unmanaged creating a fire hazard and a haven for wild dogs and other problem feral animals.

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      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        No, if you had looked you would have found that most of the smaller fires burn out before anyone can put them out.

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        • #
          Kalm Keith

          And Conversely 97% of the bigger fires burn out of control because people Can’t put them out.

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        • #
          PeterW

          All fires start small.

          High fuel loadings increase rate of spread so they are bigger and more difficult to control once we arrive on scene.

          Reduced number of maintained fire trails and firebreaks – another result of the Green ideology the people should be locked out – also delay first response and reduce our ability to keep fires small behind solid containment lines.

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          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            Not in Forests NSW, or the NSW National Parks, this is just hearsay

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            • #
              AndyG55

              AGW is hearsay. unsupported by any facts.

              The lack of burn-offs in Australian bush is TOTALLY down to the green agenda.

              Not hearsay, but FACT !!!

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            • #
              PeterW

              You lie.

              NPWS does not – in many cases CANNOT , due to legislative restrictions and inadequate funds – put in and maintain all the fire trails that some of the Field staff with whom I have conversed, see as desireable.

              As native forestry has declined, SF have lost people, machinery and capacity. ….. often because Forests have been turned into Parks by Labor- Green governments that regard gazetting an area and putting up a few signs as a cheap way to buy inner-urban votes in marginal seats.

              I’ve worked with both. I’ve also spent a lot of time with those public groups that spend time in the bush and keep trails open for free. …… a service that is no longer provided when their activities are banned and the gates locked.

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              • #
                PeterW

                For general info, there is funding for “strategic” fire trails, but trails and breaks to contain fires early, frequently have to be put in as required.

                I’ve worked with the machinery operators on the ground and from the air. I’ve been given maps on which containment lines were just projections….. to be put in if the fire and the weather gave us time.

                You can’t have everything, but it’s frustrating to have to keep on refuting such rubbish.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      “But AGW via CO2 is behind all this.”

      TOTAL BS as always.

      You know that is a scientifically unsupportable load of garbage.

      You only say that to SEEK ATTENTION.

      Its your form of virtue seeking.

      You are a sad, lonely old white man, PF.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      “adding energy to the atmosphere in the form of heat”

      Fires do that

      CO2 DOES NOT, and you have absolutely zero evidence for that fantasy.

      Stop your baseless regurgitation of scientifically unsupportable garbage, PF.

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    • #
      RickWill

      I can observe one change over my lifetime and that is the rate of growth of trees, bushes and grasses. I live in Melbourne on a 1440sq.m block and can get close to enough wood to keep me warm through winter just trimming trees each year on this block.

      The increased rate of growth of trees means an increased effort in fuel management globally to manage the risk of damaging wild fires.

      Then there are the council restrictions on trimming trees. My neighbour has to get permission from council to touch any tree on his heritage listed property. This link has a classic case of the stupidity of councils:
      https://www.smh.com.au/national/fined-for-illegal-clearing-family-now-feel-vindicated-20090211-84sw.html

      Then there are people who choose to build houses in forests with minimal clearing. I consider every house in the Dandenong Ranges being at risk of loss in fire. It has been a fabulous growing season in Melbourne. When it changes to the hot dry summer there will be abundant fuel. Ignition sources are free.

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    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Peter Fitzroy:

      A fire needs 3 things; fuel, oxygen and a source of ignition. We can’t do anything about the last 2 so reducing the amount of fuel is the remedy.

      And what do you mean “so early in the season”? The bushfire season south of Sydney is Oct to Mar. A month earler north of Sydney. This map would help https://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/6C98BB75496A5AD1CA2569DE00267E48

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      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        G3 – so the beginning of November is not early in the season? it is a 7 month season and we are at the beginning of the 2nd month? (Lets not forget those big fires last month either)
        I have posted this before – the fuel loads (after a 3 year drought) are low, fires burnt into areas historically fire free.
        the fuel type, condition (rotten for example), moisture content etc etc all make a difference.

        Source of ignition – mostly humans there either deliberate, or littering (cig butts, broken glass as a magnifier are examples)

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        • #
          AndyG55

          Your base level ignorance of fires in Australia is again being broadcast for ALL to see

          Please keep going, PF !!

          November fires are the NORM.

          Fuel loads are NOT low, otherwise we wouldn’t be getting fires of this intensity.

          Your cognitive comprehension is at its lowest ebb, PF.

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        • #
          AndyG55

          If you were capable of reading a basic chart (which you have proven you are not)..

          ..you would see that fire season on the north coast can start as early as August.

          November is very much in the middle part of the bell curve.

          Stop letting your ignorance and AGW zealotry stop your mind from working !!

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        • #
          toorightmate

          DRONGO,
          No doubt you are aware of the strong correlation between sea level temperatures and bushfires 9Australia and California). The waters along the East coast of Australia are relatively cool at present.
          If you ask me to provide a reference, I’ll stick Mr Google fair up your Kaiber Pass.

          00

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        Oh and this is the updated version of your 20 year old article
        xhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4785963/

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        • #
          AndyG55

          “we develop an ensemble method based on a two-layered machine learning model “

          A model that tells them exactly what they want it to tell them.

          Back to REALITY, twerp

          The REALITY is that we are in a TOTALLY NATURAL drought period.

          Fires happen more often when it is dry and windy !!

          Its Australia.

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          • #
            Sceptical Sam

            Fires happen more often when it is dry and windy !!

            And, especially after decades of mindless green policies adopted by the land management agencies such as the National Parks Services.

            Green policies that eschew cool burns, the establishment and maintenance of fire breaks and fire trails, and the reduction of fuel loads by non-fire means.

            Green policies and those who push them are culpable.

            The other point is that there has been a significant increase in the number of National Parks, nature reserves, UN World Heritage Areas, and locked-down State forests, all of which are subject to appallingly incompetent management practices.

            20

    • #
      el gordo

      ‘AGW via CO2 is behind all this.’

      The bushfires are a distraction, the MSM is not keen to discuss the cooling anomaly in south east Australia. Do you think CO2 is responsible for a meandering jet stream?

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    • #
      Dennis

      And you don’t seem to understand that ever since the climate zone became drier and the rainforests retreated and were replaced by the bushland vegetation we have today that the indigenous people observing natural fire events developed their land management, seasonal burning during the cooler months and subject to the prevailing winds. By burning regularly they ensured that when natural fires occurred or when they were burning the bushland the fires resulting were cooler and not the massive fire storms being experienced in New South Wales and Queensland at the present time.

      I have explained to you before that indigenous traditional seasonal burning has been adopted by park rangers in the Kimberley Region WA and Kakadu National Park NT carried out with modern equipment by indigenous and other rangers. Cattle property managers have been delighted with the native grassland response to regular burning.

      Early white settlers from 1788 recorded the indigenous burning, some thought it was a hunting technique but most soon learnt that it was looking after country.

      The foreign influenced UN Agenda 30, Sustainability, and others are ruining our country in so many ways involving water supply and storage, mining and natural gas extraction, commercial fishing and much more, including a lack of permits for looking after our country as the indigenous people did for tens of thousands of years and other Australians since 1788 until the green tape and red tape barriers were put in place by stupid politicians.

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      • #
        Geoff Sherrington

        After years of observation around Kakadu, starting before most Aborigine culture was invented and re-written by academics in terms unfamiliar to the locals, and before national parks and world heritage became trendy, before thinking people paid any attention to crude, uneducated greenspeech, I can alleged that
        1. The locals lit small fires opportunistically, usually to make it easier to see and kill food animals like goanna and wallaby.
        2. The bigger fires were from small fires that got out of control, not that there was much control. More like strong hot winds at the time turned little into big.
        3. Bigger fires were also lit by cattle/buffalo station staff to encourage more new growth fodder.
        4. Nobody was worried by fires. The population density was too low, as was the capital value of most of the flammable assets. Trucks could mostly be driven to safety.

        The popular current mythology around the Noble Savage idealism is false. Very little useful historical data was passed on from early Aborigines to early settlers. Later, the stories were revised to fit an Anglo-European thought expectation and to provide academic researchers with something to do for their pay.

        This whole Green business is based on dishonest invention, repetition, scientification and legislation by politicians who know stuff all. It is past time to wipe the angel-dew from your eyes, to start to ask questions like “How do we recover the cost of past harm and future opportunity from over-hyped concepts like World Heritage, which strip us of some aspects of sovereignty, disallow thoughtful management and takes away public enjoyment of peoples’ own assets.”

        While some might consider my comments extreme, I say in return that I am reporting factual experience, which is a matter that the green convert fears more than most topics. It is their way to oppose debate and contrary views. It is offensive anti-science, to my dismay as a scientist.
        Geoff S

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    • #

      For those not living in the east and who may be tricked…

      Spring is the main fire season for NSW. Because of the winter-dry/summer-wet pattern and the spring wind patterns you will get massive burns like now and 2013 and 1951 and 1980 and 1895 etc.

      There can also be lethal fires in summer when the spring pattern persists with drought and westerlies. Hence 1939, despite La Nina and time of year.

      This talk of “early season” is a stunt. September is normal peak for fire here (I’m in the middle of it now) and when the rains and storms don’t come in October/Nov…that is “late season”.

      In the past the severity depended on how much good growth preceded the spring dry (1951 came after the all-time wet of 1950). With the lack of forestry, fire-maintenance etc now….who knows?

      But don’t fall for yet another GeeUp stunt. This is late season for fires on the mid-coast. This is not Victoria. If this drought persists all through spring after a parched winter, as it did in 1915, we will be in big trouble by summer. (I’m packed for evacuation right now.) But this is still late season and this is still not Victoria.

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    • #
      robert rosicka

      The answer as to why the fires are so bad has already been explained by this guy .

      https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2358051624306587&id=100003053170378

      If you’re a hard core lefty nut that is easily offended best not to watch the video.

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      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        Buzcocks – look at the RFS website, they are still managing controlled burns this month.

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        • #
          AndyG55

          lol.. You mindless twerp.. control burns in the middle of fire season. !

          This is NOT the time they should be done

          I wonder how many of those North Coast fires can be put down to control burns. !

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        • #
          Graeme No.3

          Peter Fitzroy:

          I pointed out the 3 requirements for a fire (fuel, oxygen and ignition).
          We can’t do anything about the second, so IF these fires are unprecedented and due to Climate change then logically
          There must be more fuel (due to climate change)** OR
          Climate Change turns people into arsonists.

          **In which case why haven’t the authorities taken action to reduce the risk?

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    • #
      Travis T. Jones

      “But AGW via CO2 is behind all this.”

      Quite so.

      “It’s the single biggest cause – burning coal – for [global warming] and it must take its major share of responsibility for the weather events we are seeing unfolding now,” he said in Hobart today.”

      https://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/coal-miners-to-blame-for-queensland-floods-says-australian-greens-leader-bob-brown/news-story/cbfe12042fa9c4149ea3c10524f57344

      Why won’t coal induced CO2 make it rain and put the fires out now?

      What examples can you show that prove CO2 is not the control knob as required by the scientific method.
      Thanks in advance.

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    • #
      bobl

      Wrong again, the temp today is the same as 30 years ago (within 0.2 deg) and the energy input form CO2 and all feedbacks using IPCC models is ONLY 0.17% of average insolation and 0.06% of peak insolation, yet you claim that that insignificant rounding error on energy is the cause of everything despite the fact that there has been practically no change in temperature over the last 30 years and none if we take peak to peak (1930s until now).

      Once again you argue that we should expend our energies on a guiltless trace gas rather than dealing with the real solutions to bushfire. IE that instead of trying to prevent fires with windmills and solar panels perhaps we might start managing fuel loads and cutting spread limiting fire breaks again. Gee, you might even call that adaptation….

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    • #
      GD

      But AGW via CO2 is behind all this

      How does CO2 start a fire?

      30

  • #
    AndyG55

    Latest UAH data for Australia.

    Australia: October 2019 was the 15th warmest October out of 41 years.

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    • #
      Serp

      By this time next year it will be adjusted into its rightful place in the top five.

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    • #

      Some interesting trivia…

      During this fire emergency on the midcoast (I’m just back in the ‘dong from Port Macquarie, where Friday arvo was day-for-night) we have had some very low minima for some reason. Thursday, which stirred the fires with heat and westerlies, started very cold. And now…

      This morning was our coldest November morning in daily records which go back to the mid-1960s (or, as a climate alarmist would say, it was our coldest evah). Interesting when you think that we are getting to the middle of the month. And interesting when you reflect that our two lowest known temps were in May this year and August last year. Yep, the second lowest minimum evah (that’s “since the mid-1960s” in human-speak) was an autumn reading. As they say in climatarian…Unprecedented!

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  • #
    AndyG55

    Apart from the lack of burn-off and the fuel base being allowed to build up..

    it is obvious that the NE of Australia is in drought conditions, nothing unusual about that

    The reason is because of the abnormally COLD water in the Coral Sea region, across the top of Australia, and also in the southern Great Australian Bight region.

    https://www.ospo.noaa.gov/data/sst/anomaly/2019/anomnight.11.7.2019.gif

    The drought is because of COLD
    not because of heat.

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  • #

    Big Green knows that the firestick will negate its “narrative”. So it’s banning the firestick.

    Go on, people. Just go live tiny and eat buggy in a tight, controlled urbanisation. You know you want to. It says so on the television set!

    (Some autism would help with the shift to smart cities where the only things increaseing are screens. Autism concentrates the mind wonderfully on screens. It’s really a superpower. So how’s your autism? Are you a fully screen-ready smart-citizen yet?)

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  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    Q. But weren’t solar panels supposed to stop bushfires?

    A. Yes: “At UN Environment, we believe that sustainable energy presents an opportunity to transform lives and economies while safeguarding the planet.”

    Why does energy matter?
    https://www.unenvironment.org/explore-topics/energy/why-does-energy-matter

    Queensland celebrates 4GW solar milestone, three panels for every person
    https://reneweconomy.com.au/queensland-celebrates-4gw-solar-milestone-three-panels-for-every-person-62711/

    60

  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    Fuel Loads a quick quiz

    What constitutes fuel in this case?
    How is that load calculated?
    What are the units of measurement?
    What constitutes a dangerous fuel load?
    What are 2 common ways of managing fuel loads?
    What is the edge effect and how does it impact on fuel loads?

    /Do the research and then get back to me.

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    • #
      el gordo

      You’re a data man, splitting hairs, we should simply make it illegal to live in bushfire prone areas.

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    • #
      Kalm Keith

      “What constitutes fuel in this case?”

      Leaves, koalas and wombats.

      Next

      “What are 2 common ways of managing fuel loads?”

      Remove the wombats and Koalas.

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    • #
      robert rosicka

      This was explained to you yesterday about fuel loads by someone who is in the fire service and it’s burn or be burned in oz the locals worked this out thousands of years ago .

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      • #
      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        Don’t do folklore Robert, some facts please. For example what was the fire regime? what was the species mix? What seasons did the burns occur? when did you learn to internet?

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        • #
          AndyG55

          “Don’t do folklore Robert, some facts please”

          Odd thing to say.

          Your whole AGW “belief” system is build zero fact, all fantasy

          You LIVE in that fantasy, its your whole existence.

          You should actually do some research yourself, instead of your constant evidence-free blathering.

          You tell us these places haven’t had a fire like, “forever”

          Then you say fuel loads are low. !

          You are either a moronic idiot or are having a serious cognitive malfunction.

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        • #
          Kalm Keith

          All of the above.
          Anhal nathrac uth vs spechud, doc hiel tien dre.

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        • #
          robert rosicka

          Poiter you are a good example of the old saying ” in order to be a good liar you need a good memory ” .
          You maintain that – fuel loads were reduced by burning but also say that most of these areas have never been burnt before ! Which is it ?

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          • #
            Kalm Keith

            Obviously, as is always the case in my native country, Ireland, both.

            50

          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            Low fuel load is consistent with no burning – as every man and the dog that is Andy point out, fuel is required for fire.

            48

            • #
              AndyG55

              So NOW you are saying there ARE high fuel load.

              Get you story straight, twerp.

              And who’s fault are these large fuel load.

              The green agenda not allowing proper burn-offs and fuel load reduction.

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              • #
                OriginalSteve

                Correct. And I supect this is why the fire season this year may be horrific – high sustained temps and toomuch ( read: not sufficiently reduced due to greenie-Borg inflused councils stopping it ).

                Its nothing to do with the CAGW fairy story. But they will try lie their way out of it by blame the lie of CAGW on the situation.

                Line up the legal eagles I say….

                10

              • #
                OriginalSteve

                Correct. And I supect this is why the fire season this year may be horrific – high sustained temps and toomuch ( read: not sufficiently reduced due to greenie-Borg inflused councils stopping it ).

                Its nothing to do with the CAGW fairy story. But they will try lie their way out of it by blame the lie of CAGW on the situation.

                Line up the legal eagles I say….its going to be a busy time….

                00

              • #
                OriginalSteve

                Sorry…not sure why duplicate post. Can one of them be deleted please.

                00

    • #
      AndyG55

      “What are 2 common ways of managing fuel loads?”

      Things that are NOT being done, obviously

      If there is low fuel load, we wouldn’t have the fire intensity that we have.

      You can only get that intensity if fuel loads are HIGH.

      Use your brain, if you can find it through your AGW miasma. !!!

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      PeterW

      If you have to ask you obviously don’t know your subject.

      “What constitutes fuel in this case?”
      The fuels that drive fire intensity are AVAILABLE fuel…those fuels that a dry enough to burn AND fine enough to burn during the passage of the fire front.

      “How is that load calculated?”
      By visual assessment.
      By collection of material over a representative area (typically 1m2) and calculated to produce the figure that answers your next question.
      By by satellite assessment.

      “What are the units of measurement?” Mass per hectare. Typically t/ha.

      “What constitutes a dangerous fuel load?” Depends on the conditions and the landscape. This is a silly question and reveals your ignorance.

      “What are 2 common ways of managing fuel loads?”
      Hazard Reduction Burning, Slashing. Grazing.

      “What is the edge effect and how does it impact on fuel loads?”
      Insufficient information to give a one-line answer. Again, you show your ignorance.

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      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        I already knew the answers, W.

        The edge effect is the way in which woody weeds like acacia, lantana, banksia colonise the edges of Littoral rainforests for an example. These species produce a lot of both litter and fuel load, but confined to the margins. It functions like a wick in that it burns readily and the plants grow to about 4 meters. In other biomes, other species will be found around the margins of forests.

        As an aside, a closed canopy forest, generally does not have much of a fuel load, its those with an open canopy which generate the most fuel.
        https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0014/4370/Vegetation-Classification-Chart.pdf

        a handy guide
        https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/97781/Comprehensive-vegetation-fuel-loads-Fact-Sheet-V8.pdf
        and for private landholders
        https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/13322/Standards-for-Low-Intensity-Bush-Fire-Hazard-Reduction-Burning.pdf

        Anyway well done, I’m betting no one else would have known.

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        • #
          AndyG55

          Copy paste, with zero comprehension of REALITY.

          What should be done vs what IS done.!

          That’s the PF way. !!

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        • #

          From Megafires at Bushfirefront

          In 2003 there was a 25,000 ha wildfire at Mount Cooke, in the northern Jarrah forest, where post-fire evaluations were carried out. The fuel in most of the fire area was about 17 years old, carrying about 18 tonnes/ha of fuel. It was almost completely burnt out by a crown fire, and areas of bushland on Mt Cooke itself, regarded as fire refugia as they had not been burnt during three rotations of previous prescribed burning, were completely burnt-out by the high intensity fire.

          A post fire evaluation estimated that the fire had killed about 10 million of the overstorey trees outright. 10 million!! Whereas there had been multiple seral stages across the fire area before 2003, the fire reduced the whole area to one simplified seral stage. The BFF has not noticed any academic or green activist expressing any concern over this disastrous outcome.

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          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            oh yes they have
            https://library.dbca.wa.gov.au/static/FullTextFiles/022359.pdf
            But that is not the point really is it.

            With the best possible fuel reduction regime in place, how much is the change of a crowning fire reduced?
            You will never get fires out of the landscape and there is always potential for really big ones. As the atmosphere warms this means that everything related to fire management will have to change.

            Now for the second quizz

            If the dominant species of eucalypt in a mountain region takes 20 years to flower and set seed;
            How many years apart should you fire regime plan for?
            What does a 20 year flowering imply for the natural fire regime?

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            • #
              AndyG55

              20 years, not NEVER.

              You really do keep stomping in your own BS, don’t you PF !!

              Spraying it all over yourself.

              “As the atmosphere warms”

              The atmosphere over Australia has NOT WARMED in over 20 years

              and apart from a slight step around 1998, did not warm in the previous 16 or so years.

              Your comment is POINTLESS GIBBERISH and totally FACT FREE. !!!.

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            • #
              william x

              You could always ask me Fitz. I am a professional. A senior manager. With qualifications, with 27 years experience. You don’t need to go to a library. you don’t need the media. you don’t need Wikipedia. you don’t need the Guardian. You don’t need the Abc. you don’t need the Murdoch papers. you don’t need main stream tv. you don’t need the internet. Labor, Liberals or Greens. you don’t need your neighbour. you don’t need to bother the other posters and better still, you don’t need to worry anymore because I can answer you questions re this. Why is that Fitz? It is my profession. Your call, is it the library book, the rest of above or me.

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              • #

                You. I choose the chartered accountant with heaps of experience in small business book keeping.

                20

              • #
                AndyG55

                Ah.. you mean “Cooking the books”, right GA

                Just the sort of person you would relate to. !

                Odd that you would NEVER talk to someone who actually KNOWS, isn’t it GA. ;-)

                13

        • #
          PeterW

          No cigar….
          You didn’t provide sufficient information to determine WHICH edge effect you were asking about.

          It varies according to climate, soil, landscape, land use, management and the nature of the ‘edge” itself. There is no one answer.

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    • #
      Yonniestone

      Did you learn that at Landcare meetings Peter?

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      • #
        Kalm Keith

        Are there actually people awake at land care meetings.?

        50

        • #
          Yonniestone

          Oh yes KK, they are very Woke in the ways of green ideology, the real world not so much.

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          • #
            OriginalSteve

            It appears Landcare might be loosly affilliated/connected with the UN….

            https://news.un.org/en/story/2011/10/391462-un-meeting-desertification-discusses-effective-approach-land-management

            ““Landcare provides a sound, knowledge-based approach from the bottom up,” said Luc Gnacadja, the Executive Secretary of the UN Convention to Combat Desertification (UNCCD), whose Parties are attending its 10th session in Changwon, Republic of Korea.

            ““We must take action in order to fight desertification, land degradation and drought with a bottom up approach, otherwise we miss meeting important international targets such as the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs),” he said.

            “Dennis Garrity, Landcare International Chair and recently designated UNCCD Drylands Ambassador, told the gathering that “what people are doing on the ground is what it’s all about.”

            ““Landcare is all about grassroots support for land restoration and land regeneration, and that’s what makes it so valuable for the UNCCD, because we’ve learned over the years that bottom-up approaches of communities taking charge of their environment, grappling with their problems, and drawing in support from outside is the key to land regeneration throughout the world.”

            “Experts from Australia, Iceland, South Africa and the United States discussed the challenges and successes they have witnessed in the landcare approach.

            “Terry Hubbard and Horrie Poussard of the Australian Landcare International described a project to restore the King Parrot Creek area of Victoria that had seen an increase in soil erosion and loss of native plants and wildlife. Local landowners and others collectively began restorative efforts by volunteering their time and knowledge and saw significant improvements over several years.

            Bob Hawke set it up…he was a Socilaist…..

            https://landcareaustralia.org.au/project/vital-the-un-adopts-the-landcare-approach-international-biodiversity-day/

            “”To mark International Biodiversity Day on today, May 22, the National Landcare Network and Landcare Australia have called on the UN to adopt the Landcare approach to protect and preserve threatened eco-systems around the globe.

            “According to a United Nations report earlier this month, scientists claim ‘1,000,000 species are now threated with extinction and the health of ecosystems on which we and all other species depend is deteriorating more rapidly than ever.’

            “The National Landcare Network and Landcare Australia agree it’s vital the UN adopt the Landcare approach to increase awareness of biodiversity issues.

            “‘Landcare embodies the theme of sustainable food production, landscape restoration and healthy living, from urban spaces to the back of Bourke,’ Peter Bridgewater, Chair of the National Landcare Network said.
            He added: ‘In Australia we champion Landcare and all it’s done in the last 30 years. And if the UN had Landcare, it could embrace the obvious solutions to biodiversity threats that really work.’

            10

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        Nope, as an ecologist back bc (before children)

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        • #
          AndyG55

          And you have forgotten what little you actually might have known.

          You now even think CO2 doesn’t promote plant growth.

          How much more IGNORANT can an ecologist get !!!

          (I’m sure you will continue to show us.)

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        • #
          bobl

          There is your problem right there, you are an ecologist trying to grasp Physics. The ecologist in you wants to believe in AGW the way Mulder Wanted to Believe in UFOs, but you are not grasping that physics renders the AGW hypothesis moot – it isn’t and can’t happen the way you are being told because the energy is not there.

          In the last few weeks you have agreed with my analysis that at best CO2 causes 0.5C per doubling due to the lack of an energy supply but yet you continue to want to blame CO2 for everything. We are not at a doubling so we’ve seen perhaps 0.1C of CO2 warming which is completely hidden in the noise of dominant Natural variation and is totally benign.

          You HAVE agreed with these things so why with the new information are you still peddling the old socialism’s favourite non-solutions based on warming that you’ve agreed is insignificant, rather than shifting your ecological focus to measures that can deal with natural variation (including the swamped natural variation). Good forestry practice including fuel reduction burning and land clearing (especially around structures) restricts fire intensity and limits spread and it doesn’t matter whether natural variation, or human causes dominate, or even whether the fire was caused by lightning or a careless cigarette. It works for all fires, all causes, all the time, if it’s done properly.

          Once I was like you and even voted green, but I revolted when I did the calculations that show AGW is impossible. Now we have the unhealthy situation where all ecology is hitched to global warming and the same tired old impossible solutions that don’t even reduce CO2 (Wind, Solar and EVs) are trotted out for everything.

          THEY WONT FIX ANYTHING – THEY JUST WASTE MONEY THAT COULD DO REAL GOOD ELSEWHERE.

          This is why I now call myself a conservationist because green or eco-whatever is now hopelessly single issue.

          If the issue is say mercury we should concentrate on engineering mercury solutions, if it’s whaling then we should concentrate on fishery management, if it’s bushfires we should concentrate on fire prevention through forest management, if it’s spotted quolls the we should create quoll sanctuaries. If its water quality on the GBR then we need to look at solutions to that (EG water flow modification, artificial barriers or maybe even dredging) Windmills and solar panels are NOT the solution to every ecological problem. Life’s just not that simple. Global Warming CO2 Eco-hysteria is bleeding real problems, especially real ecological problems, dry – and that’s a travesty.

          We really need to shut down the ridiculous and unnecessary global warming hysteria in order that the real issues of humanity can get the attention they need and real working solutions can emerge instead of the fake “renewables” non working solutions to nothing.

          30 years ago the UN was working to eliminate poverty through development, now after their eco enlightenment the UN is desperately trying to stop the third world developing by hard limiting the development of cheap reliable fossil fuel energy. A 360 degree turnaround in my lifeime. Greens and the green movement are evil, socialism masquerading as environmentalism, its time to become a conservationist and embrace real solutions to real problems.

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  • #
    Neville

    Good article Jo as usual, but can I ask you this question?

    I’m a layman and I’ll ask you the same question I’ve asked Willis Eschenbach , Nic Lewis, Pat Frank etc and anyone who understands data/evidence.

    Have you read the study by the Connollys, who’ve checked millions of balloon data over many decades and concluded there is little evidence for AGW and certainly not CAGW?
    Nic said he’ll have a look and perhaps Willis may also be checking their data.
    Nic Lewis replied at Climate Audit (in comments) that he knew Ronan Connolly and he was a bright guy and he would have a look.
    So Jo, can you have a look as well and tell us what you think of their study ( ies)? Here’s a recent power point link and the video “Balloons in the Air” also available at you tube. Thanks and I hope David may have the time to check their data as well.

    https://blog.friendsofscience.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/July-18-2019-Tucson-DDP-Connolly-Connolly-16×9-format.pdf

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    • #
    • #
      RickWill

      The concept of “greenhouse” gas is simply wrong. Water vapour cools the globe. It is easy to verify because the amount of water vapour cycles every year by a significant amount. In 2018 from 17mm to 22mm and down again. The monthly data in this table, from NASA satellites, shows water column in mm and outgoing long wave radiation in W/sq.m:
      Mnth TPW- OLR
      Jan 17.04 236.8
      Feb 17.29 236.5
      Mar 17.73 237.9
      Apr 18.19 238.7
      May 20.40 240.6
      Jun 20.92 243
      Jul 21.89 243.9
      Aug 21.04 243.4
      Sep 20.54 242.2
      Oct 19.68 239.5
      Nov 18.93 237.1
      Dec 18.91 236.5

      The minimum in water vapour in January coincides with the minimum in OLR and the maximum in water vapour coincides with the maximum in water vapour in July. Exact opposite of the “greenhouse” gas narrative.

      A similar cycle is produced every year and is the result of orbital eccentricity, earth axis obligatory and the distribution of land/water over the globe.

      It is the simplest data set for disproving the “greenhouse” gas fairy tale. Anyone can get the global data from the NASA website and do this correlation.

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    • #
      Chad

      Neville,
      There has already been a discussion on the Connolly’s work

      00

  • #
    robert rosicka

    Now that Victoriastan is locking up all forests to logging I wonder how long it will be before the law of unintended consequences hits home ?

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    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Well victoriastan really is rapidly turning into the Solyent Green utopia it seems to aspire to…..

      How long before we see the Plague appearing in Victoriastan as well?

      Apparently Leftist run cities in the US have the highest levels of violent crime and homelessness.

      Gotta love socalism…from a safe distance…with a wall between us and it.

      10

  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    Oh those figures for the WA fires, I’m assuming they are for white man’s fires? after all most of the state does not have any systematic fire regime? Being desert and all

    /Just Saying

    318

    • #
      PeterW

      Your talent for introducing irrelevancies continues to impress.

      No wonder you are referred to as a troll.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      That’s why there are Karri and Jarrah forests, right, twerp !!!

      Ranges east of Perth are very much bushfire regions, as are places like the Stirling Ranges.

      Keep displaying your ignorance.

      Seems to be all that you have.

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    • #
      Yonniestone

      That’s it Peter, keep race baiting and being divisive, like a good little Marxist.

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    • #
      robert rosicka

      Never been to WA Poiter ? And what’s with the race card ? This state does practice regular fuel reduction burns I’ve seen them .
      Burns are done in the desert as well as in the north and south of the state .

      80

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        yes robert, and when flying over the state, you can easily see the scars the fires have made. You missed my point though. The numbers purport to be for the state, but they obviously do’nt include 80% of the land area, as if they did, the dip would not have been so pronounced. So it is White Mans data, sorry if that is a trigger for you.

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        • #
          Yonniestone

          It’s not White Man’s Peter, it’s Australian, every man woman and child regardless of colour or background.

          Nations that encompass all are an undesirable concept for those that wish to destroy them.

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          • #
            OriginalSteve

            I wonder if bushfires are a result of what the Left alleges to be the “white mans privelege” of having a working modern economy and building houses close to a bushfire zoned area as people attain comfortable living through the use of cheap afffordable electricity?

            If so, if a fire burns out someone who isnt white and priveleged, does a bushfire then constititute an act of racism? Yes, I know its a dumb idea, but the Left seems to be infested with dumb ideas, especially if you follow it to its Leftist logical conclusion.

            By the Lefts loopy thinking, all fires might be considered “racist” as its all to “blame” on what the left calls “white priveleged people”.

            Never mind its the loopy Left who are stopping the fuel reduction burns….

            20

        • #
          robert rosicka

          Why but Poiter they only burn off on land ! Then again I don’t have your level of skoolin.

          40

        • #
          AndyG55

          You really are a DEEPLY RACIST little piece of slime, aren’t you PF !!

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    • #
      toorightmate

      DRONGO,
      You ain’t seen forests until you have seen the forests of South West WA. About the size of Dumb Daniel’s Vic.
      Ooooopppps – I haven’t provided a reference!!!!!!!!

      00

  • #
    Brian

    From his comments I can only assume that Peter Fitzroy is, in common with most Australians, a coastal city boy divorced from the reality of the bush. Fire loads, particularly in national parks are extremely high and the major problems are under-story, dry fallen branches, leaves, twigs and bark. For those overseas our gums shed branches like crab claws and while retaining leaves in winter many shed their outer bark.

    The extent and intensity of the current fires is not unusual in historical terms but the impact is greater because there are a lot more people in the area. Too many people, refugees from the overcrowded and polluted cities have built among trees on a bush block. A disturbing number with more money than sense have built on ridges with one long access road, more interested in the view than in safety. Fire is, has been and always will be a feature of the Australian bush. Perhaps the best example of city logic was in Tasmania where planting kerosene bush to attract butterflies was recommended. The colloquial name kerosene bush was derived from its highly flammable, hot burning nature. When the Tasmanian fires occurred thos ethat had planted in in hose gardens soon realize the mistake they made.

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    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Brian:

      Some didn’t learn. I remember a friend living in the Dandenongs whose house was half a kilometre from the fire front. (1983 I think).
      The house 500metres away that burnt was on a slope, with a wooden deck. The owner admitted to storing 20 litres of petrol there, along with his chopped wood supply and old newspapers (and possibly other things flammable). The slope was uncut grass and all around the deck were bushes. The fire came up the slope then got under the deck and a fireball roared up into the ceiling. End of house.
      Afterwards the owner wanted to use the Insurance payout to build the same type (and plan) of the house with Council permission. It was only the local Fire Chief who dissuaded him by threatening to write to every Insurance Company in the State saying that they would lose money if they insured him.

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  • #
    Ruairi

    Alarmists use flood, snow and fire,
    To convince that the warming is dire,
    And those who decline,
    To toe their cult line,
    Are disparaged and called a denier.

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  • #
    pat

    read all. they can claim anything in the name of CAGW and Reuters certainly won’t argue:

    8 Nov: KFGO: Reuters: Fed sees climate change shaping economy, policy
    By Ann Saphir
    SAN FRANCISCO – The U.S. central bank signaled on Friday it may be getting ready to join international peers in incorporating climate change risk into its assessments of financial stability, and may even take it into account when setting monetary policy.
    “To fulfill our core responsibilities, it will be important for the Federal Reserve to study the implications of climate change for the economy and the financial system and to adapt our work accordingly,” Fed Governor Lael Brainard said in remarks released at the start of the Fed’s first-ever conference on climate change and economics.

    The Fed, she said, will need to look at how to keep banks and the financial system resilient amid risks from extreme weather, higher temperatures, rising sea levels and other effects of the accumulation of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere…

    The U.S. central bank’s attention to global warming comes even as President Donald Trump’s administration denies it exists. Trump on Monday notified the United Nations that the United States will in 12 months leave the Paris Climate Accord…
    Scientists are in broad agreement that carbon dioxide from cars, power plants and other human sources are behind the climate change that’s already making powerful hurricanes, severe drought, and other weather extremes more frequent…

    ***”Climate change is an issue we can’t afford to ignore,” San Francisco Fed President Mary Daly said at the start of the conference, a day that also marked the one-year anniversary of a fire 150 miles north of San Francisco that killed 85 people and destroyed 14,000 homes, a conflagration blamed in part on climate change…READ ALL
    https://kfgo.com/news/articles/2019/nov/08/feds-brainard-says-climate-change-poses-profound-risks/955654/

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    • #
      pat

      full attribution:

      Reporting by Ann Saphir and Lindsay Dunsmuir; Additional reporting by Jonnelle Marte in New York; Editing by Andrea Ricci.

      20

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      That sounds ominous, but wholly predictable after the insurance industry got away with the idea of raised risk due to CAGW.

      For raised risk read, Increased Premiums.

      But with no actual increased risk it just means more profit/skim from the cagw meme.

      KK

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    • #
      AndyG55

      “that’s already making powerful hurricanes, severe drought, and other weather extremes more frequent…”

      There it is again, DATA does NOT SUPPORT this nonsense.

      It is a LIE being pushed at the highest levels.

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  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    Impact of the Green’s
    how can a fringe party be responsible for so much that is seen to be wrong?

    They obviously must be much more insidious than there numbers would suggest. /sarc

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    • #
      AndyG55

      You know the Green agenda has infiltrated every part of government.

      Common sense has taken the back door because the ABC and leftist media and its rabble-rousers will yelp and scream at anything that doesn’t back the rabid green agenda.

      Why are you PRETENDING to be so ignorant of the facts.

      Is your display of wanton and crass ignorance a DELIBERATE attempt at attention seeking !!

      That is the green-slime methodology, isn’t it.

      Yelp and scream until you get your own way.

      Your LIES and DECEIT will get no traction here, troll. !!

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      • #
        Dennis

        Don’t ignore that the Union Movement provides donations to the Greens, and to GetUp and that organisation campaigns for Labor and Greens because they support the climate change hoax.

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    • #
      Yonniestone

      Insideous is a very good word for them, the truth reveals in a sarcastic comment.

      Petard hoisted.

      70

    • #
      Dennis

      A clue for you Peter, the words from a former Prime Minister in 2015 referring to the socialist globalism climate change hoax agendas;

      Socialism masquerading as environmentalism.

      70

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Patricia knows full well…its interesting to watch the baiting of people occur. I doubt she has any inclination to actually learn, her assignment was to gather data and refine tactics.

        I recognize the intel-like craft at work, albiet clumsy at times….

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    • #
      Latus Dextro

      Impact of the Green’s
      how can a fringe party be responsible for so much that is seen to be wrong?

      Read #27. It may help answer your question

      30

    • #
      robert rosicka

      Greens as a party roughly 10% of the vote , radical far left labor and others now you’re well into 40% plus but as we know the decisions for what happens in the bush is made in the city by one of these far left nut jobs .

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    • #
      Reed Coray

      Peter F asks:

      how can a fringe party [the Greens] be responsible for so much that is seen to be wrong?

      Good question. I wonder if Peter sees the irony when the same question is asked regarding CO2–specifically

      How can a trace gas (CO2) be responsible for so much that is seen to be wrong?

      30

  • #
    PeterW

    For those who wish to experiment with the relationship between the various relevant factors, this FDR calculator was created by the CSIRO.. It’s not perfect, but you can see the effect of varying fuel loads, slope and weather conditions.

    http://www.grayspoint.rfsa.org.au/MK5.htm

    60

    • #
      PeterW

      Under the conditions prevailing, the relationship between fuel load and flame height and rate of spread is roughly proportional.

      Double the fuel and watch what happens.

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  • #
    pat

    10 Nov: ABC: Are Victorians living on the fringes of our cities prepared for the bushfire season?
    By Nicole Mills
    As New South Wales and Queensland grapple with devastating bushfires which have arrived unusually early, Victorians are getting battle-ready for the predicted emergencies that lie ahead this summer…

    Australian Bureau of Statistics data from March showed Bannockburn had a growth rate of 3.6 per cent, making it the ninth-fastest-growing regional area in the state.
    Small residential blocks now line the edge of open farmland.
    Golden Plains Shire fire prevention officer Matthew Sims said it was a situation mirrored by many rapidly growing areas on Melbourne’s peri-urban fringe…

    The growing fuel load
    Mr Crisp said planned burns were an important part of reducing the fuel load, but conducting them was becoming more difficult.
    “Our fire season is longer and therefore the times when they can actually do their planned burns is shrinking,” he said.
    “So they’re looking at other ways that they can achieve the same outcomes. So looking at traditional owner methods like burning in wintertime.
    “Forest Fire Management Victoria already use mechanical means so using bulldozers and other equipment.”…READ ALL
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-10/victorians-in-rural-fringe-prepare-for-bushfire-season/11673826

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    • #
      PeterW

      I sit on the group that helps determine when the local fire season commences and when it ceases.

      It is NOT a hard and fast period in which no burning can be done. What it IS, is a period in which we have the power to determine the conditions under which burning takes place, and what must be done before the landholder lights up.

      Fuels permitted to be burned.
      Width and type of firebreaks required.
      Type and numbers of firefighting resources to be present to prevent/ control escapes.
      Authorities to be notified and permission sought on the day.

      So it is simply not true to say that fuel management cannot be done in the “Fire Season”. What MAY be true is that there is a longer period in which the risk of an escape is higher. That assessment has to be done at the time and with respect to the forecasts, not from a calendar 6 months in advance.

      What is also apparent, according to the officer Ashok Hodgson who wrote the manual for VIC forestry fuel management burning, is that the relative authorities have become “gun-shy” because there is a mentality that mistakes must never be made. So it becomes “safer” to do nothing and blame a God or Climate Change.

      People who actually study such things are pointing to example after example in which the risk is high and preparedness is low. https://youtu.be/WUvpRpIdfxs

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      • #
        robert rosicka

        PeterW I agree completely, controlled burns that escape are rare but do happen .
        There is a bigger danger to those living on the fringes of wildfire rather than fuel reduction burning , we have been here for more than twenty years and the hills behind me haven’t been burnt since we’ve been here .

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  • #
    Mike Jonas

    The “Too much fuel …” link says “We obviously can’t control the weather, nor can we hope to eliminate all possible avenues of ignition. The only factor we can control is the large contiguous accumulations of fuel. Therefore, broadscale fuel reduction burning is the only defence we have against large wildfires. This will not prevent fires occurring, but it will ensure fires are less intense, are easier and safer to control and will do less damage.”.

    Yes, the only factor we can control is the large contiguous accumulations of fuel, but there is one other way to achieve less damage: clear the fuel around houses. ie, clear gum trees and trees/shrubs that burn easily. Clear them from a generous buffer area around houses, and replace them with fire-retardant trees/shrubs and/or mown/grazed grass.

    That’s not a complete solution, because there’s still ember attack to protect against, and it’s not always easy to do, but we’re talking about fires doing less damage, not about total elimination.

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    • #
      Graeme No.3

      A friend of mine was living in Wahroonga in 1980. It was a dead-end street that was surrounded by National Park. The local FS came down to reduce the growth around back of the house blocks and was faced by a barricade of neighbours preventing access to the Park. My friend gave them access through his block and was ostracised by the inhabitants.
      He moved interstate (promotion) but as he left he predicted that they would be “good greenies” until they were burnt out.
      I never heard how those locals got on, but those in Sydney will remember a few fires in the Wahroonga State forest.

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  • #
    TdeF

    It’s fairly simple. If the world was just 1C cooler, these bushfires would not happen. Nor would the species extinctions. And hurricanes/tropical storms/tempests/tornadoes/typhoons/polar vortices/droughts.

    90

    • #
      TdeF

      Without modern electronic thermometers and satellites You might not be able to tell or even feel 1C in an average from night to day, winter to summer, from pole to pole, but it is lethal. After all that warming after the last ice age and the melting of the glaciers which covered Europe and Canada and the US down to 40 degrees, we have to protect the glaciers which are left. And the floating ice.

      So bush fires are entirely due to aircraft, cars, manufacturers, steel making, concrete making, metal refining and cows, fruit bats and termintes. They all have to go. Now. How dare you have cows and eat meat and cheese! Yeast produces CO2 too you know, so the cheese has to go. And the wine and champagne and beer. To save the planet.

      It goes to show that neither science nor history are being taught in schools.

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      • #
        Graeme No.3

        TdeF:
        But would that stop Walruses going bungy jumping?

        100

        • #
          TdeF

          No. But it is irresponsible to let walruses have bungies. Or sell beer to dolphins, let alone six packs. And how plastic shopping bags from Melbourne get involved with green turtles is a mystery. They never shop South of Moreton Bay in Queensland.

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          • #
            Graeme No.3

            TdeF:

            They’re GREEN turtles. Probably flew down on a private jet just to get entangled in a shopping bag.
            Quite why I don’t know, but I haven’t been able to follow the thought processes of Greens for many years.

            60

            • #
              TdeF

              Yes, the Greens are the world’s frequent flyer group. Limousines and five star hotels for conferences too.
              It would not be surprising if they used private jets to shuttle turtles to the Yarra. There is a picture of Super Green Leonardo di Caprio, perhaps with his friend Michelle. Michaelangelo and Raphael would not be far away.

              40

  • #
    Latus Dextro

    Trial by fire.
    Judge for yourselves. We’ve discussed this many times here before.

    Greens NSW
    Bush Fire Risk Management Policy
    Principles

    1. Assumptions about traditional European bush fire prevention, mitigation, control and management need review in the light of the need for ecologically sustainable management.
    2. There is an urgent need to correct the common misconception that responsible fire management always involves burning or clearing to reduce moderate and high fuel loads generally throughout the landscape, irrespective of where they occur. Rather, such activities should be strategically planned, to protect the community and vulnerable assets whilst minimising the adverse impacts of these activities on the environment.
    3. Stricter controls are required to drastically reduce the amount of rural burning not required for essential asset protection.
    4. Prescribed burning is only one method of fuel management and should be considered in the context of other available options and the management objectives of the land in question.
    5. Many vegetation communities and plants cannot survive frequent fire; for this reason frequent fire has been listed as a key threatening process by the NSW Scientific Committee under the Threatened Species Conservation Act.
    6. Further, many vegetation communities can undergo severe decline in biodiversity with long term fire exclusion. Ecologically appropriate fire regimes are required to maintain biodiversity and functioning ecosystems.
    7. Firefighting services in NSW need support, supplementation and additional resources. In particular, local government needs to be provided with additional resources and finances to enable the proper implementation of its responsibilities with regard to the assessment and implementation of hazard reduction strategies.
    8. Education of councils, land managers, land-holders, the general public, fire management planners and fire fighters is needed and should be publicly funded. Such education should target specific audiences and address a broad range of ‘bush fire’ and environmental issues.
    9. Education and community awareness material needs to focus especially on the threat to the environment and property of inappropriate use of fire, particularly burning which is too frequent, extensive in area, of excessive intensity, badly timed or carelessly implemented.
    Greens NSW policy – Bush Fire Risk Management Page 1
    10. All Fire Fighting Agencies and Land Managers should be issued with guidelines as to the specific implications of the legal requirement for ecologically sustainable fire management and receive training on the environmental effects of bush fires.
    11. Basic training courses for Fire Permit officers, Brigade Captains and Brigade members should include specific information on the environmental impacts of frequent burning, appropriate fire regimes for biodiversity protection in different vegetation communities, guidelines regarding the timing of burns, the manner in which burns are lit, maintained and contained, appropriate fire exclusion areas and buffer zones, and other requirements of the local Bush Fire Risk Management Plans.
    12. Local Bush Fire Management Committees should prepare summaries of landholder obligations under Risk Management Plans, including environmental assessment and protection requirements, for general circulation in the district.
    13. High bush fire hazard areas are usually those associated with natural areas and vegetation. The location of residential or rural residential areas in high bush fire hazard areas increases the level of native vegetation loss as well as increasing the level of threat to people and their homes from the risk of a bush fire. This is neither economically, socially nor ecologically sustainable. New development that requires the clearing of native vegetation on adjoining properties should not be permitted in identified Bushfire Prone Areas, where such development is likely to put lives or property in danger or involve substantial protection and suppression costs including loss of environmental values.
    Goals
    The Greens NSW will work to support:
    14. The need for Fire Permits to be obtained at all times of the year when there is a significant risk of fire escape, not just during the Bushfire Danger Period throughout NSW;
    15. The payment of compensation to volunteer members of the RFS for loss of salaries and recreational opportunities during extended fire fighting activities;
    16. The use of emergency powers under the Rural Fires Act 1997 where there are serious threats to human life, property as well as the environment;
    17. The carrying out of adequate environmental assessment on all activities or works proposed to be undertaken in accordance with a bush fire risk management plan;
    18. Accurate mapping of all proposed and actual fires on a standardised Geographic Information System with additional data collected with respect to intensity, height of burn, slope, etc;
    Greens NSW policy – Bush Fire Risk Management Page 2

    19. The use of plans of operations to determine both the environmental impact and alternative fire suppression strategies (i.e. firefighting aircraft) for bush fire operations in natural areas, and in particular in wilderness areas and in the National Park estate;
    20. Public education and prevention strategies to minimise the occurrence of bush fires, maximise community preparedness and assist the effective and integrated mitigation of bush fire risk within the principles of ESD; and
    21. Encouragement of provisions in council LEPs to protect native bushland by prohibiting urban development which requires clearing of native vegetation for fire mitigation purposes.
    Detail
    The Greens NSW will work towards:
    22. When applying the guidelines for development in bush fire prone areas under the Australian Standard Planning for Bushfire Protection assessments must ensure that the requirement to clear vegetation is kept to a minimum where alternative engineering solutions will provide the required fire protection;
    23. The establishment of an ongoing research program into the ecological effects of bush fire, with the objective of ensuring that fire management programs are compatible with ecological sustainability and the maintenance of biodiversity;
    24. The clarification of responsibility for the health, safety and welfare of all volunteer fire fighters within the State and the subjection of all practices to WorkCover inspections;
    25. Clarifying the demarcations and ensuring optimum cooperation between the RFS and the NSWFB by developing a model which clearly outlines the roles of the respective organizations, focussing on providing the best fire protection to the community and environment of NSW depending on the resources and capabilities of each of the agencies; and
    26. Ensuring that all bush fire hazard management works proposed under bush fire management plans are prepared using the best available data, are available for public comment, and are adequately assessed to ensure that proposed works and prescriptions are ecologically sustainable and appropriate for implementation with an appropriate audit and compliance program.
    The Greens NSW will support funding priorities which ensure:
    27. The provision of adequate funding for the development and implementation of statewide community and school based education programs in the prevention of fires (particularly bush fires);
    Greens NSW policy – Bush Fire Risk Management Page 3

    28. The provision of funding for research into arson, anti-arson education and early intervention programs;
    29. That all NSWFB and RFS brigades are provided with adequate and appropriate protective clothing, training, equipment, appliances and communications systems;
    30. The provision of adequate training in ecological principles and effective bush fire management to all firefighting personnel;
    31. Improving lines and means of communications and coordination between all branches of emergency services; and
    32. Proper funding of training and equipment for all fire fighting authorities.
    The Greens will seek a review of legislation to:
    33. Encourage the Commonwealth Government to amend radio broadcast laws to enable emergency services to break into radio programs during times of bush fire emergency, to broadcast warnings and other essential information;
    34. Progressively remove the need for ongoing Council contributions to the funding of fire services; and
    35. Provide a single Fire Service under a single Act of Parliament, amalgamating the NSWFB and Rural Fire Services and comprising permanent and volunteer Brigades.
    Greens NSW policy – Bush Fire Risk Management Page 4

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    • #
      AndyG55

      “Stricter controls are required to drastically reduce the amount of rural burning not required for essential asset protection.”

      And we are seeing the consequences.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      14-18.. tie everyone up in reams of green-tape, so prescribed burning never happens.

      This is one of the main reasons for the severity of these fires.

      Burn-off plans cannot be fulfilled.

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      • #
        Dennis

        Most Australians are blissfully unaware of the green and red tape, layers of bureaucracy in addition to government departments Commonwealth, State and Local Government performing Yes Minister with our elected governments.

        And how despite Constitutional Laws the United Nations treaties agendas are being imposed, eg; Agenda 21 now Agenda 30: Sustainability.

        Without bipartisan cooperation this tangled web will never be unravelled.

        90

        • #
          Len

          The two Agendas are different. One is for local and the other national. They are both current.The headquarters for Australia is in Melbourne. This is a sub branch from the UN HQ. Melbourne deals directly to the local governments, it doesn’t involve the Federal or the state governments.

          30

    • #
      Peter Fitzroy

      I will point out 2 things.

      1. The greens are not in power, will never be in power and will never be in a coalition. Therefore their policies will never be implemented.
      2. All land managers use a zonal policy when designing their strategic plans. These zones are designed to reduce the impact of fires on the surrounding land parcels by aggressively reducing fuel loads, providing fire breaks etc. This has been the practice since the 1970′s

      However, successive right wing governments at the state and federal level have reduced funding in real terms for both land management and for fire fighting, at the same time refusing to admit that the likelihood of more and more catastrophic fires has increased.

      315

      • #
        robert rosicka

        Fitz you seem to be saying the Libs are to blame for lack of burning but on the other hand insist that plenty of fuel reduction burning is taking place ?

        90

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        I’m blaming the lib’s for systematic underfunding of the RFS, along with underfunding for the National Parks. i also not the Forests NSW is unable to implement it’s plans due to, wait for it, funding being directed into other areas. There is fuel reduction, both on private land, and on public assets, but as I keep saying, we are in changed environmental conditions, and our response and preparedness has to change as well. IT does not matter if you believe AGW is the cause, conditions have changed, and we have not

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      • #
        AndyG55

        “The greens are not in power, will never be in power and will never be in a coalition”

        Again with the IGNORANCE

        The greens were in power all through the Gillard years in coalition.

        The Labor party only gets into governance with the help of the Greens, so they have to cow-tow to the greenie agenda.

        “However, successive right wing governments at the state “

        Again, TOTAL BS.. !! as shown below.

        62

      • #
        AndyG55

        “This has been the practice since the 1970′s”

        With more and more restrictions and GREEN TAPE being used to stall the proper implementation of those plans, hence what should be done DEOSN’T get done.

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      • #
        PeterW

        I recall spending some time on a fire with a crusty old NPWS field officer. (Many of the field staff were good people, but the management are often……. different).

        Contrary to PF’s assertion, he told me very emphatically that Labor were always ready to create more Parks, but they were lousy at FUNDING them. It was the Coalition that supplied the requisite funding.

        Guess who I find more credible…..

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    • #
      robert rosicka

      My word I thought the red tape was bad now .

      40

    • #
      GD

      Greens NSW
      Bush Fire Risk Management Policy

      Gobbledygook.

      20

  • #

    Just totally stupid. These climate change “warriors” have an excessive recency bias (they probably have no idea what that means).

    Some idiot I was arguing with on Andrew Bolts blog said that he prefers to only look at the data for the last 20 years! What hope do we have when we have such stupidity. As if bushfires just started this season.

    I can remember when there were huge fires in Sydney itself back in the 80s or 90s and the ABC journalist standing on the roof of the ABC office and pointing them out. No mention of climate change…

    Scomo needs to grow a backbone and stop pandering and feeding this utter nonsense.

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    • #
      Dennis

      Sydney was cut off by bushfires north, south and west with all roads closed to traffic in the 1990s fires.

      To reach Sydney after waiting days I took advice from a newspaper truck delivery driver in Port Macquarie and I drove across to the New England Highway and then to Mudgee and to Sydney via the Great Western Highway which was open again but that had not been well publicised.

      Motorists were stranded for days during the road closures and were provided with food and water by charities and other local groups of good people.

      90

  • #
    pat

    Hugh Riminton intro: unprecedented start to Australia’s bushfire season. in California, as in Australia, ***firefighters say the pattern of bushfire behaviour is changing.
    Zoe Daniel: frequently burning into autumn, even winter.

    fire brigade captain, Scott Rules, life & property losses definitely increased and the size of the fires bigger. (THAT’S ABOUT IT FOR “FIREFIGHTERS SAY”).

    Daniel: political debate over climate change remains heated. having pulled the US out of Paris, & rolled back a raft of environmental regulations, Trump has claimed California’s Democrat govt has failed to effectively manage forests due to lobbying by conservationists etc.

    PG&E? don’t know that all the data is there about climate change, but more people than ever living in the wild land…(CALIF POP. WAS 20M IN 1970, NOW 40M)

    Australian winemaker Mick Schroeter been in Calif since early 90s observing the ***changing seasons & the more frequent emergencies say things are different.

    AUDIO: 6min03sec: 10 Nov: ABC Sunday Extra: Californian Fires
    Presenter: Hugh Riminton
    Dangerous wildfires in California have finally been contained, but forecasters say the reprieve may be brief.
    More potentially deadly blazes are predicted in the coming weeks, and much like in Australia ***the patterns of fire-season are changing.
    US correspondent Zoe Daniel reports from Southern California.
    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/sundayextra/correspondent-report-1/11678510

    wine-maker Schroeter, doesn’t seem to have changing seasons here – looks pretty reliable:

    26 Apr: THE PRESS DEMOCRAT: Sonoma County from a winemaker’s perspective
    by PEG MELNIK
    “I don’t know of any other region that has so many different micro climates in such a narrow range geographically,” said Mick Schroeter, winemaking director of Windsor’s Sonoma-Cutrer.
    The key, he said, is where the fog rolls in and how it burns off.
    “A great example,” Schroeter said, “are two estate vineyards –– Vine Hill Ranch and Owsley Ranch Vineyard. They’re seven miles apart and they can have a 10-degree difference in temperature. ***We harvest them a week apart.”…
    Schroeter, a native Australian, said he’s also smitten with Sonoma County but joked it’s a good idea to keep tight-lipped about this geographical paradise.
    “Shhhhh,” Schroeter said. “Don’t tell everybody because otherwise everybody will be coming here.”…

    Schroeter’s doing fine:

    Local Wine events: Sonoma-Cutrer Wine Cruise 2019
    7 November 2019
    Arles France to Lyon France
    Rhone River
    View full itinerary, below
    Wine Host Bio: Mick Schroeter, Winemaking Director of Sonoma-Cutrer
    Winemaking is often a trade passed down from generation to generation, and Mick Schroeter is no exception. After a brief period at Kaiser Stuhl, Mick followed in his father and uncle’s footsteps when he was reunited with them at the Penfold Winery in 1982. With his love and passion for winemaking, he rose rapidly within the Penfold Winery, and later accepted a position as Vice President of Winemaking at Geyser Peak Winery in California where he remained for 17 years. His long track record of success and illustrious career in Australia and California, along with twice being named “Winemaker of the Year” at the London International Wine & Spirit Competition, have given Mick the knowledge and experience to take the reins as Winemaking Director at Sonoma-Cutrer.

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    • #
      pat

      thought I should check for the correct spelling of the fire captain’s surname and discovered the story was on 7.30 report during the week. such a loaded piece, judging by this article:

      6 Nov: ABC: As fire seasons overlap in Australia and California, sharing firefighting resources will only get harder
      7.30 By Zoe Daniel and Amy Donaldson
      Greg Mullins is frightened, and that goes against the grain.
      “My whole career as a fire chief was trying to calm people down,” he said.
      “When you have people like me who have been around for half a century doing this work getting frightened — and I’m frightened — it’s time for everyone else to be, particularly politicians in Canberra.”
      The firefighting veteran and former head of Fire and Rescue NSW is in northern California, assessing the damage caused by the Kincade Fire which has swept through the state’s famed wine country north of San Francisco…

      Mr Mullins is a member of the Climate Council and Emergency Leaders for Climate Action.
      “The most fire-prone parts of the planet are burning more and more,” Mr Mullins said.
      “Here in California, 18,000 homes last year, 9,000 the year before. Previously 3,000 was the biggest they’d think of. They’re just shaking their heads saying, ‘What the hell is round the corner?’”…
      ‘It’s going to be harder to fight these fires’…

      Speaking with Mr Mullins as firefighters tackle what remains of the blaze, local fire brigade captain Scott Rohrs explained that, as in Australia, California’s fire season is getting longer, stretching resources. Fire size, speed and intensity have also increased.
      “When I started with this business, our seasons, especially in this region, would maybe run four good months. Now we start in April and we go almost to Christmas,” he said…

      This poses a major problem now that the seasons in Australia and California are overlapping.
      “Their air force of 23 — one fire service, 23 fixed-wing water bombers — we have one in NSW,” he said.
      “As each of the states and territories in Australia, their fire seasons heat up and start early, they won’t be able to share trucks, people, incident-management personnel, so it’s going to be harder and harder to fight these fires and we need a national response to this.”…

      Prime Minister ‘fobbed us off’
      Mr Mullins is one of 23 former senior emergency figures trying to get the Australian Government to listen to their concerns about climate change and the missing capacity to fight fires in a new era.

      “People are at risk, we need a game changer in how we deal with these catastrophes because they’re going to get worse and worse.”
      However, his written requests for a meeting with Prime Minister Scott Morrison have failed.
      “We were fobbed off to Minister [Angus] Taylor who is not the right minister to speak to,” Mr Mullins said.
      “We wanted to speak to the Natural Disasters Minister and the PM. We asked for help with that, we never got a reply.
      “You had 23 experts willing to sit down with a PM and come up with solutions, but he’s just fobbed us off.
      “What does it take to wake these people up in Canberra? I don’t know.”

      Mr Mullins, however, is not giving up on his push for a meeting with Mr Morrison.
      “We’re coming into what I think is the most dangerous fire season — the most dangerous build-up to a fire season I’ve seen since 1994, when NSW was devastated,” he said.
      “And there’s not even platitudes, there’s just closed doors and closed minds as far as I’m concerned.
      “That’s atrocious that our national government doesn’t recognise that there’s a disaster heading their way. So, again, please listen, Prime Minister.”
      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-06/former-fire-chief-worried-about-firefighting-resources/11677760

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      • #
        Kalm Keith

        And did this fellow speak to the government of California, and did they follow his advice?
        And look at the mess California is in!

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      • #
        AndyG55

        “Mr Mullins is a member of the Climate Council and Emergency Leaders for Climate Action.”

        So, another whinging AGW zealot.

        If he’d get off his ridiculous anti-science AGW meme, he might get a bit further.!

        Nobody except other zealots, pays any attention to a zealot.!

        He MIGHT have something worthwhile to say, but it will always be buried in childish AGW brain-washed blah !

        84

  • #
    Grant (NZ)

    Time to invest in a mob of goats
    Goats for fuel reduction

    40

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Thor Heyerdahl, when living in a fire prone area of the south of France, had a herd of goats doing just that. The locals thought he was daft, but after a fire came though and they saw how well his property had survived, a number of them started doing the same.

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  • #
    Brian

    The fires this year have released millions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere. In fact based on previous assessments for bushfires it would be safe to say that so far around one third of Australia’s total manmade emission have been released. So should we be insisting that the affected State governments stump up for a few hundred million dollars in carbon offsets? Who is assessing whether any of the forest burned was used to generate carbon offsets? I mean it is the moral thing to do to have the carbon amount of the offset reapplied to the purchaser’s liability and the seller of the now smoldering offsets reimburse the purchaser.

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    • #
      Graeme No.3

      EU rules say burning wood doesn’t release CO2. You can get subsidised for doing that e.g. Drax power station in Yorkshire or various estates in Northern Ireland.

      80

  • #
    yarpos

    One of the Mayors up there has been emoting big time about Climate Change and the media is lapping it up. Madam Mayor was affected personally and seems to want to make it someone elses fault. Every one of the emotional total loss interviews on the North Coast was against a backdrop of people who had built in the forest with trees closely surrounding their properties.

    Its a pity we are not a longer lived species, we may be more inclined to learn from our past mistakes and less inclined to play the “unprecedented” card or the “I have never seen it like this” card

    80

    • #
      yarpos

      “Every one of the emotional total loss interviews” that shoould read “….interviews on our ABC”

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    • #
      Dennis

      The Mid North Coast Mayor a few days thanked the fire fighters on radio., and they do deserve our gratitude. He also mentioned that an indigenous elder had told him that when they managed the land there were few wild fires and there was time for most creatures to escape and far less damage to the vegetation resulting from cool fires. The radio presenter replied that councils are to blame for that and the mayor did not respond.

      On the television news since the Mayor was broadcast sobbing about the terrible losses of life and property.

      I hope that he feels rotten.

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      • #
        Dennis

        During 2017 a local bushfire unit approached the Council for a permit to carry out burning of a an area near a golf course and they were refused permission. In January 2018 that area caught fire and became a threat to the golf course and homes on the other side of the road.

        The volunteer who told me that was very annoyed.

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      • #
        AndyG55

        It should be noted that most Councils have succumbed to the greenie agenda,

        In fact many are run by the green agenda.

        One of the MANY blocks put up against proper fire management.

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  • #
    pat

    ***ABC radio this morning had a firefighter spokesman saying something similar. this is the closest I could find to find what I heard, which I thought was claiming in the history of natural disasters, the fires were unprecedented. don’t remember who was being quoted either:

    9 Nov: Gold Coast Bulletin: Gold Coast fires: Lower Beechmont residents safe to return home
    by Emily Halloran, Kirstin Payne & Kate Paraskevos
    “Our conditions are going to be still quite challenging for both days into the weekend,” Queensland Rural Fire Service regional manager Superintendent Alan Gillespie told the Bulletin.
    “We might have a reprieve on Monday but will get back into very high fire danger on Tuesday and Wednesday with no rain in sight.”…

    ***“It is the driest period ever seen history of record keeping.”
    “You are essentially pouring a bucket into an empty pool, there may be water but it isn’t enough.”…
    https://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/news/gold-coast/scenic-rim-bushfires-continue-to-burn-as-residents-brace-for-bad-news/news-story/c53e298ea7526990acecfd338ceb7996

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  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    This is the first time for Sydney and Newcastle

    Catastrophic fire danger is now forecast for the Greater Sydney and Greater Hunter areas on Tuesday 12 November 2019, due to worsening weather conditions.

    High temperatures, strong winds and low humidity are forecast, making conditions dangerous.

    Catastrophic is the highest level of bush fire danger. Homes are not designed to withstand a fire under these conditions.

    If a fire starts and takes hold during Catastrophic fire danger conditions, lives and homes will be at risk.

    Advice for people in areas of Catastrophic fire danger include:
    › Avoid bush fire prone areas. A safer area may be a large town or city, shopping centres or facilities well away from bushland areas.
    › Schools in identified high risk areas will be closed. Schools will notify affected students. Start making arrangements now.
    › If you are unable to leave, identify a safe location which may be nearby. This may include a Neighbourhood Safer Place.

    Large areas of the state are also forecast to experience Severe and Extreme fire danger. This includes in the north coast and northern NSW areas, where there is a large number of fires already burning. These fires will not be contained in time and will threaten lives and properties.

    Based on latest forecasts from the Bureau of Meteorology, the following fire danger ratings are expected on Tuesday. These are subject to change as forecasts are updated:
    › Catastrophic – Greater Sydney and Greater Hunter (including the Blue Mountains and Central Coast areas)
    › Extreme – North Coast, Illawarra/Shoalhaven, Central Ranges, Northern Slopes and North Western
    › Severe – Far North Coast, New England, Far South Coast, Southern Ranges, Lower Central West Plains

    This is the first time since new Fire Danger Ratings were introduced in 2009 that Catastrophic fire danger has been forecast for Sydney.

    A statewide total fire ban has been declared for all areas of NSW for all of Monday and Tuesday.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      WEATHER. !

      Thanks, drone !!!

      Its called DROUGHT and its cause is the anomalously COLD water off the north and northeast coasts.

      Sydney and Hunter have had many bad fires in the past, stop being such a primadonna. !!

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    • #
      AndyG55

      And yet the mornings over the past couple of days have been quite cool.

      We are talking about 1 or 2 days where the wind will come from the west.

      Large swings in WEATHER (you are confused with “climate ” yet again, dolt)

      Nothing to do with CO2.. but you knew that, didn’t you. clown. !!

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      • #
        AndyG55

        The real reason for these swings between hot and cold is a wobbly southern jet stream

        As the leading edge passes through, a trough is formed with hot and blustery westerly winds ahead of it.

        After it passes we get the cooler conditions that the SE of Australia has been experiencing over than last couple of days.

        Another wave/trough will pass through on Tuesday, a bit lower down that the last one, so we will get those hot blustery westerly winds that make bushfires so dangerous.

        These wavy jet streams most often occur when the sun is at its lowest part in its solar cycle. We saw this last couple of years in the NH, now we are seeing it down here.

        It is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with atmospheric CO2.

        82

      • #

        As I mentioned above, “record” cold for my part of the midcoast this morning. That is, the lowest recorded minimum for November since the mid ’60s. Almost mid-November, and following a couple of very low minima.

        Daytime fire conditions were ferocious after a cold start last Thursday. Thankfully, weather has been cool and still yesterday and today.

        I dare say if Global Cooling, a different masked marauder to Global Warming, were to swoop for any length of time it would involve lots of high maxima, low minima, inland winds and drought. Not being a supporter of either masked marauder, I’m hoping they’ll go on taking turns for a while at least.

        It’s like that mysterious conservative-votin’ skeptic who doesn’t believe the present fire emergency is real. We know he must be somewhere on JoNova, a place notorious for denial…but we just don’t know who he is. In fact, there’s a bunch of these nameless fire-deniers lurking on this site. Bet they’re old, male and white. You know that lot.

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        • #
          william x

          Mosomoso. You would know about fires then. I replied this post to Peter fitz.. If you believe the hype and distorted media, then you have no idea of the truth. You will just be a lemming and consume the lies told to you and read and promote it to others as the absolute truth which would be a shame. Do you understand our senior management/officers love to make everything catastrophic. They changed the fire category from “High fire danger” to “Catastrophic”. They love to publish the words “unprecedented” and “disaster”. Even though the records show its been as worse in the past. Their media units will promote this as the potential greatest disaster “in living memory”. Why do they do that? why do they say “in living memory”? It is because that term is not absolute. They are not stating a fact so they can’t be held to account.. The reason why this is done is because they want increased government funding and relevance. It is empire building by our management. The govt has reduced funding to the service over the last years. So this is how the service fights back. The records going back 80 years in our service show no linear increase in the severity or number of bushfires. It is cyclic. So we use the current fires and public outcry to build the organisation. How do I know all of this? It is because I am a senior Officer that has served 27 years in that Fire Service.

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          • #

            I certainly take your point, William.

            If one had to name a world’s biggest (known) bushfire then the 1851 Victorian event would likely come tops. 5 million hectares. Black Friday 1939 was Australia’s next biggest, with 2 million hectares, and it was preceded by a heatwave which remains our deadliest natural disaster by official count (just ahead of the 1896 heatwave).

            Of course, we’re talking about Victoria and summer in crown fire country. Yet I can’t see where this NSW spring emergency distinguishes itself from the massive spring disasters of 1895, 1980, 1951 etc. (1895 was actually end-of-winter!). Nobody I know is taking it lightly. I’m in touch with neighbours and we’re ready to evacuate, but the conditions have been cool and still and the fires are still far, so it’s reasonable to hope while staying alert.

            The world’s worst fire in terms of effect (if we exclude fire-bombings of Tokyo, Dresden etc) was almost certainly the Peshtigo, which was concurrent with the Great Chicago fire of 1871. Amazingly, it occurred mid-autumn, in the Great Lakes region which would normally have been chilly! Conditions were truly freakish and the worst happened.

            The people of WA learned their lesson after 1961. What worries me is that lessons are being unlearnt and history buried in the service of a demented green cult (which is the wedge-head of a demented globalism). If Tassie can burn the way it did in 1967, by what divine right should it not burn as badly again unless practical measures are taken? Eight months of drought following lush growth in 1966…just add heat, wind and some bad luck.

            Anyway, William, I hope more people are listening to blokes like you. I know of a few who won’t listen, let’s hope they remain few and that we spend more on fire maintenance and less on white elephants in the future.

            60

        • #
          william x

          Yes Mosomoso I am old, male and white. You say “Bet they’re old, male and white. You know that lot.”. What do you mean? Why would you say that? Have you have become the person you hate by believing and saying things like this. Look in a mirror and you will see that it is yourself that is being racist, anti ageist and discriminating against gender. You state “you know that lot”. Again this is something that a bigot would say or post. Why would you think that? Think about it Mosomoso. If you were my neighbour and you or your family were in need or crisis, I would not hesitate to help. I would not care if you were white, yellow, green, brown, black, orange, aqua, lgbt, labor, lib, moslem, Christian, hindi, buddhist, old, young etc etc etc. I would be there for you, to help, because that’s what this old white male would do. Stay well Mosomoso

          10

  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    So those in Newcastle and Sydney, should be getting their plans together, and their ‘’bug out’ bags ready. Of course, this does not apply to those posters here, as their firm belief is that is not happening

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    • #
      AndyG55

      Again with the LIES, PF,

      We are well aware that it is bushfire season,

      .. and that we are currently getting large fluctuations between Hot and COLD.

      Its just that we are REALISTIC about the causes, whereas you just “imagine”.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      And again , we have the issue of fuel loads, that have NOT be properly managed.

      Not many hazard fuel reduction burns in the Hunter and Central Coast this last several years.

      I know of several people who wanted to, but couldn’t get a permit from their greenie infected councils.

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    • #
      PeterW

      Yeah right….

      There is a firefighting unit in my shed, yellow nomex and an orange helmet on my verandah…… and a dozen messages on my pager requesting volunteers for Strike Teams to the North Coast.

      It’s not me who believes it isn’t happening.

      It’s you who are denying that it’s happened before.
      In 1851.
      In the 1890s.
      In 1939.
      In 1952 – still regarded by the CSIRO as the largest single-ignition Fire in the Southern Hemisphere. EVER.

      You. Have. No. Idea……

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      • #
        AndyG55

        And the Blue Mountains fires in 1957, 1968 then 1976

        and 1979/80 when over a million hectares was burnt across the state of NSW.

        82

      • #
        AndyG55

        Another real problem nowadays, is that so many “greenie” type people think its cool to live surrounded by bushland.

        Just DUMB !!

        82

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        peterW sorry, I give you a pass. But the rest, they do not understand

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      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        peterW sorry, I give you a pass. But the rest, they do not understand

        211

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        I’ve been posting about this for 2 freakin weeks, it is you that like the rest of the ostriches on this site refuse to look at reality.

        By the way – I’ve not called you on your posts, and would ask that you do the same on mine.

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        • #
          Yonniestone

          If you don’t like the site and we’re all such hopeless cases then shove off!

          Jo and many other qualified career scientists here have heard your same null arguments for years.

          Go back to the city and glue yourself to something.

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        • #
          AndyG55

          No, you have been constantly trying to link it to atmospheric CO2,

          … thus you destroy any meaningful comments that you might have made.

          That is your HUGE LIE that you are totally incapable of providing any scientific evidence for.

          You also have done everything to DENY that one of the prime causes for the intensity of the fires is the unchecked build-up of fuel load.

          It is YOU that is refuses to accept the REALITY of the situation.

          It is YOU that is in a little fantasy land.

          Your posts are called garbage because of your continued idiotic AGW nonsense.

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      william x

      Peter Fitz. If you believe the hype and distorted media, then you have no idea of the truth. You will just be a lemming and consume the lies told to you and read and promote it to others as the absolute truth which would be a shame. Do you understand our senior management/officers love to make everything catastrophic. They changed the fire category from “High fire danger” to “Catastrophic”. They love to publish the words “unprecedented” and “disaster”. Even though the records show its been as worse in the past. Their media units will promote this as the potential greatest disaster “in living memory”. Why do they do that? why do they say “in living memory”? It is because that term is not absolute. They are not stating a fact so they can’t be held to account.. The reason why this is done is because they want increased government funding and relevance. It is empire building by our management. The govt has reduced funding to the service over the last years. So this is how the service fights back. The records going back 80 years in our service show no linear increase in the severity or number of bushfires. It is cyclic. So we use the current fires and public outcry to build the organisation. How do I know all of this? It is because I am a senior Officer that has served 27 years in that Fire Service.

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      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        Bull dust, William, give me proof,second hand accounts don’t count

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        • #
          PeterW

          PF claims that “second-hand accounts don’t count”, yet all he offers for his own argument is that kind of “evidence”.

          Hypocrisy much?

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          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            Bite my shorts you “slimy little toad” (andyg 2019) I’ve provided all the evidence you could ask for. I also have a pile of kit, but my arguments do not depend on playing dress ups.
            Go sit in the corner with Andy

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            • #
              robert rosicka

              Admit it Fitz you have nothing but green logic and excerpts from the Guardian to try and prove you know nothing on this subject .
              Previous devastating bushfires with the same ferocity were somehow natural but this one is caused by mining coal which is something that can’t be and hasn’t been proven by anybody .
              If you really believed this you wouldn’t be contributing or own anything with a carbon footprint .

              71

              • #
                Peter Fitzroy

                Hunh – I repost mountains of scientific papers.

                And listen very carefully – my argument is and always has been that AGM via CO2 is making a bad situation worse. I have never said it is the sole cause, nor have I denied the variability of weather, or the role fire plays on our environment. Somehow, despite ‘there is no warming’ we have a situation never before experienced, both in terms of the number of fires and their geographic spread (WA, NSW and QLD). You are a ostrich if you can not admit that.

                29

              • #
                robert rosicka

                Nothing here is unprecedented Fitz it’s been pointed out time after time , you are the one with your head in the sand .
                Take a good look at the photo in the Facebook link I posted below and tell me if a fire that has next to nothing to burn because it’s been managed looks like that .

                70

              • #
                robert rosicka

                Fitz CO2 is currently 0.04% with around 96% of that natural so is this the amount you contribute to making the fires worse ?

                71

              • #
                Peter Fitzroy

                one post on one area does not a bushfire season make, now does it. You have unbelievable fire activity in both NSW and QLD. Yet you persist in your head in the sand belief that this has happened before.

                I’ve posted about NSW upthread
                this is QLD
                https://www.ruralfire.qld.gov.au/Pages/State-of-Fire-Emergency-Declared.aspx
                in both this has never happened in one state to this extent, and to have it in two?

                /you don’t have to worry atm as you are out of the danger area, which is probably why you are so cocky.

                28

              • #
              • #
                robert rosicka

                Really you quote the conversation as a credible source ?
                I’ll make this easy for you , let’s suppose the whole 0.04% is man made , so the contribution to the fire is 0.04% simples .
                As for the severity of the fires it’s been pointed out above the dates of equally catastrophic fires .
                If an area gets too wet we get floods , if an area gets too dry we have fires and there is no mystery about it at all and that’s the way it’s been even before humans arrived .
                As for the severity of the fires , high fuel loads plus a drought plus the right winds nothing more it’s happened before and will happen again .

                71

              • #
                AndyG55

                AGAIN

                just modelled GARBAGE and propaganda rhetoric ,

                Nothing that could REMOTELY constitute scientific evidence

                You seriously are TOTALLY HOPELESS and very obviously totally ignorant about what empirical evidence is

                Go back to junior high and try again , fool !!

                42

              • #
                AndyG55

                “my argument is and always has been that AGMW via CO2 is making a bad situation worse”

                And it is a totally unfounded and anti-science comment which you can provide absolutely no real evidence for

                Just models , which have the assumption and the ignorance already built into them

                NOT SCIENCE

                and

                NOT EVIDENCE

                52

              • #
                AndyG55

                “Somehow, despite ‘there is no warming’ ”

                Do you dispute data for atmospheric warming?

                REAL DATA, something which you are totally incapable of providing.

                You are living in a mindless brainwashed fantasy, little toad.

                52

            • #
              william x

              Peter Fitz. “Bull dust” and “second hand reports” you say about my post. “give me proof”… I gave it to you Fitz, first hand, first time. I am a senior officer in the service, what I posted is true.. Don’t play games Fitz. You may try to trash my integrity as a professional. You may try to demean my role as dealing with “second hand reports”. Not once did you ask for my qualifications, not once did you ask about my role/s in the service. Not once did you ask about the experience I have as a first responder/manger. Fitz you just tried to brush me aside with “give me proof”. Maybe you are disregarding what is inconvenient for you to see. Ok I just need answers from my friend Peter Fitz. Are you an expert in knowing the truth when it only suits you? Do you believe your opinion is infallible and so as a result you may be blind to any other persons opinion? Do you feel you have a closed mind to any reasonable debate? Would you lie or take action with words to deflect anything in debate you are not comfortable with? And lastly another question. Fitz, re the temperature of the planet. If in ten years time, if every Australian shut everything down and sat under a tree in the outback for the next ten years doing absolutely nothing.. you know no eating. no toileting etc etc. Fitz what would be the reduction in CO2 ppm and therefore the corresponding reduction in temperature of the planet be? Fitz can you answer these questions personally or if you find it too onerous I suggest you could refer to one of your favourite “second hand reports” like Wikipedia. looking forward to your answers Fitz.. Stay well.

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                PeterW

                William…

                Your observations and conclusions correlate very well with mine. Big fires and big headlines bring increased status and budgets to the various fire services, our own included.

                No, there is nothing that we have not seen before, in terms of climate, fire intensity or fire spread. Yes, the current events have been predicted by those of us who pay attention to land management.

                PF loves to argue from authority, but vilifies and ignores any expertise that contradicts his green religion.

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              • #
                Peter Fitzroy

                A senior officer? In what? HR? You are directly contradicting your boss. As to climate change – this situation is what it looks like.

                For example – no linear increase! Why should their be? As Everyman and his dog points out fires frequency and severity are related to el nino’s, which are also cyclic.

                And don’t give me this I’m an expert line either.
                Your claim that records go back 80 years could easily be backed up with a link, it wasn’t.
                So your appear to a false authority is shown to be hollow.

                I don’t do folklore, and that’s all I’m getting here

                28

              • #
                AndyG55

                I don’t do folklore”

                BS

                Folklore is ALL you do..

                A little fantasy world, all of your own

                Back by absolutely ZERO scientific evidence

                1851 Black Thursday…. 5 million hectares burnt

                1938 Black Friday…. 2 million hectares burnt

                1944 Victoria…. 1 million hectares burnt

                1961, WA bushfires…. 1.8 million hectares burnt

                1974/75 NSW bushfires.. 4.5 million hectares burnt

                1980 Waterfall bushfire… 1 million hectares burnt.

                1984/85 NSW bushfires.. 3.5 million hectares burnt

                2003 Tenterden WA….. 2.1 million hectares burnt

                2003 East Vic alpine.. 1.3 million hectares burnt

                2006/7 Great Divides Vic.. 1 million hectares burnt

                2009 Black Saturday Vic… 450,000 hectares burnt.. lots of property loss

                2011 Carnarvon WA… 800,000 hectares burnt

                2019 to date (11/11/2019) in NSW and Qld… 700,000 hectares burnt

                Now tell us its “unprecedented” !!!

                You are nothing but an ignorant AGW toady/lackey, PF

                You have NOTHING to contribute to rational discussion.

                42

              • #
                AndyG55

                “And don’t give me this I’m an expert”

                Face it, PF, NO-ONE will EVER accuse you of being an “expert” at anything.

                You are one of the overall DUMBEST people I have ever seen, (although we have another recent contender)

                Basically everything you think you know is PROVABLE WRONG and based on pure fantasy !!!

                “backed up with a link”

                Which your mindless gibberings NEVER are.

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              • #

                you’re a data free zone William X. Point to evidence to back up the knowledge locked in your brain.

                What is your objection to creating a new category for predicted situations like the 2009 fires? The advantage of that category is that it puts people on notice to not just prepare to get the eff out of there but to actually do it.

                If conditions calm down you can always reclassify down and everyone is inconvenienced but relieved. Reclassifying up when it turns out that conditions are much worse than predicted is too late and people die.

                15

              • #
                AndyG55

                “you’re a data free zone William X”

                So are you GA.. you always have been, just like PF.

                You NEVER have any evidence to back up your mindless waffling.

                42

              • #
                AndyG55

                “As Everyman and his dog points out fires frequency and severity are related to el nino’s, which are also cyclic. “

                So funny..

                PF now ADMITS it is down to WEATHER patterns

                NOTHING TO DO WITH ATMOSPHERIC CO2

                22

              • #
                AndyG55

                “Ok I just need answers from my friend the twit Peter Fitz.”

                Good luck with that. ;-)

                PF is infamous for running around like a headless chook in distraction as he tries to evade answering simple questions.

                You watch, its quite hilarious at times. :-)

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              • #

                This snobbish dismissal of an experienced, active fire fighter was to be expected. After all, an experienced, active lifesaver can be ridiculed for wearing speedos these days if he is of the wrong political complexion.

                I’m a data-free zone. But I know that when drought and westerlies get together in spring anywhere between Victoria and the horse latitudes, I have a big problem. Like now. Like in 1895. Like in 1951. Like in 1980. Like in 2013. Just add high fuel levels.

                Anyone who needs “links” and “data” to work that out should be playing with plasticine and Cumberland pencils.

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              • #

                moso… I don’t respond to flat out claims of authority. I remain skeptical until provided with evidence.

                03

              • #
                AndyG55

                “until provided with evidence.”

                Which you yourself are totally incapable of doing.

                Your comments remain EMPTY and totally pointless.

                10

              • #
                AndyG55

                And yes, I think plastercine would be a step too far for your ability, GA.

                Play Doh, perhaps? And colouring pencils.. maybe in a few years.

                10

              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                could have been done without so much “Bull dust”….just sayin….ordinary old ‘equilibrium’

                00

              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                Equilibrium is rather cold these days.

                00

              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                early snow across the entire northern hemisphere and southern and all..’fact check’ anyone?

                10

            • #
              AndyG55

              “I’ve provided all the evidence you could ask for”

              Total rubbish PF..

              You have NEVER produced any scientific evidence, just modelled garbage and propaganda rhetoric.

              You are either hopelessly ignorant about what constitutes scientific evidence, or are deliberately being a slimy troll putting forward such garbage.

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              • #
                el gordo

                ‘As Everyman and his dog points out fires frequency and severity are related to el nino’s, which are also cyclic.

                That isn’t right, ENSO has an irregular cycle and El Nino is nowhere in sight.

                30

              • #
                AndyG55

                As explained before, the drought is because of the anomalously cold SSTs in the Coral Sea and over northern Australia.

                The erratic up and down temperature WEATHER patterns are being caused by the wobbly southern jet stream, a sign of low solar activity.

                That is the cause of these hot blustery westerlies that are causing the current fire hazard and will do so again on Tuesday in the Sydney Central Coast and Hunter regions.

                Absolutely NOTHING to do with atmospheric CO2

                22

    • #
      yarpos

      that is a stupid comment, how is it eveident that anyone belives nothing is happening after pages of discussion? posting drunk?

      10

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    pat

    6 Nov: MirageNews: Information sought re Carnarvon scrub fires
    Carnarvon Detectives are seeking information relating to two scrub fires that occurred in Carnarvon on Sunday 3 November and Monday 4 November 2019.
    The first fire on Lewer Road occurred around 1pm on Sunday, and the second fire started about 6.10am on Monday at Levy Banks near Campbell Way. Department of Fire and Emergency Services attended both fires and extinguished them.
    The fires are being treated as suspicious and detectives are urging anyone who sees any suspicious activity, persons or vehicles or who has any dash cam footage of the area near the fires is asked to come forward and contact Crime Stoppers…

    8 Nov: NorthernStar: EMERGENCY WARNING: Houses on fire at Bora Ridge
    by Alison Paterson
    UPDATE 4.37pm: THE fire at Bora Ridge is burning quickly south east towards the Bungawalbin-Whiporie Rd…
    Original story: POLICE and fire-fighters are currently trying to save people as houses burn at Myall Creek Road at Bora Ridge as the fire went to Emergency Warning…

    This came as earlier in the day police revealed disturbing reports that on a day of horrendous conditions and Total Fire Ban, some fires in the region may have been deliberately lit…
    “There are disturbing reports that the fires at Box Ridge are deliberately lit, more fires are being lit while firefighters put other fires out nearby. Police are investigating. Another was deliberately lit at MacCauliff Park, Casino.”…
    https://www.northernstar.com.au/news/emergency-warning-houses-on-fire-at-bora-ridge/3874101/

    I’ve heard people express concern extreme CAGW types could start fires, but there is also this (which I’ve seen on a couple of websites recently). while not making any allegations, it’s definitely worth noting:

    29 Oct: HomelandSecurityToday: ISIS Threat Poster Coinciding with Wildfires Depicts Fiery San Francisco
    by Bridget Johnson
    (Bridget first came to Washington to be online editor and a foreign policy writer at The Hill. Previously she was an editorial board member at the Rocky Mountain News and syndicated nation/world news columnist at the Los Angeles Daily News. Bridget is a senior fellow specializing in terrorism analysis at the Haym Salomon Center. She is a Senior Risk Analyst for Gate 15, a private investigator and a security consultant. She is an NPR on-air contributor and has contributed to USA Today, The Wall Street Journal, New York Observer, National Review Online, Politico, New York Daily News, The Jerusalem Post, The Hill, Washington Times, RealClearWorld etc)
    As wind-whipped wildfires char parts of California, ISIS supporters distributed a propaganda poster showing a flaming street in San Francisco accompanied by one of their fire-themed slogans…
    The image was circulated online last week at about the same time as the beginning of the Kincade Fire north of San Francisco in Sonoma County, which may have been sparked by power lines during intense winds…
    Both al-Qaeda and ISIS, though, have taken notable interest in California wildfires in seasons past…

    In threats directed at the West, ISIS and al-Qaeda have linked their calls for wildland arson to devastating fires occurring at that time, stressing to supporters that they can wreak similar havoc by intentionally sparking blazes as their method of jihad…
    A tutorial in a 2012 issue of al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula’s Inspire magazine highlighted the damage caused by various wildfires and instructed jihadists on picking optimum weather conditions for arson and where to set a blaze to inflict maximum devastation. It also included instructions for making an “ember bomb” incendiary device…
    https://www.hstoday.us/subject-matter-areas/terrorism-study/isis-threat-poster-coinciding-with-wildfires-depicts-fiery-san-francisco/

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    PeterW

    Media reports tonight…. public land adjacent to Caloundra was identified as over-grown and a fire hazard three years ago. Proposed HR burns have been delayed by “environmental “ reasons.

    It’s burnt now, and the damage to the ecosystem will be far more intense. Ever stood on soil that has been reduced to the consistency of beach sand, with every particle of organic matter oxidised down to 15cm?

    I have.

    Ever seen what the landscape looks like after a severely. burned landscape has been hit by heavy rains?

    I have.

    The “environmental criminals” in this case are those who deny us the ability to protect outbush.

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      beowulf

      Yep. I’ve seen it first-hand in Tomaree National Park near Fingal Bay (Port Stephens) Oct 2013. The area hadn’t burnt in decades and was choked with ground fuel and heath. All that was left was blackened sand in an area marked as “within threshold” on the NPWS Fire Management Strategy Plan. So they were happy with the state it was in.

      Absolutely full of lorikeets and honey eaters before the fire. Sterile of wildlife afterwards. After the first (mercifully light) rains a completely different plant community sprang up, dominated by Kangaroo Apple, a rainforest species not noted in that area previously.

      The only good thing was that the fire devastation was so complete that it exposed piles of hundreds of undersized abalone shells hidden in the dense undergrowth by poachers where they thought the shells would never be discovered given the lack of attention shown to the area by the NPWS. The burnt area was on the residential interface which supposedly made it a high-priority area for hazard reduction by the NPWS. So much for NPWS theory versus NPWS reality.

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  • #
    pat

    most replying agree; a few don’t:

    TWEET: Paul Barry, ABC Media Watch
    Message to Media: Enough Bullsh*t. Read the evidence, believe the science, stop mucking about. This is what our BOM says of bushfires. 1. They’re increasingly common 2. The fire season is getting longer. 3. Climate change is contributing
    LINK
    9 Nov 2019
    https://twitter.com/TheRealPBarry/status/1193101683942780928

    20

  • #
    pat

    resolution of an arson case:

    5 Nov: 7News: Man jailed for lighting 13 fires over six days in Perth’s southeast
    by Pip Christmass
    An arsonist will spend the next six years behind bars for lighting multiple bushland fires in Perth’s south-east.
    Peter Andrew Viles-Halstead pleaded guilty to all 15 charges and reportedly remained without emotion as the judge read out his sentence on Tuesday…
    Viles-Halstead started 13 fires over six days, stretching from November 2017 through to March 2018.

    The most severe was a fire on Cockram Road in Kelmscott in January 2018, which burnt through 12 hectares and threatened nearby properties, including a nursing home.
    The 28-year-old had moved to Western Australia from Queensland and was living at the Lakeview Terrace caravan park in Champion Lakes.
    But he was evicted and was sleeping in a vacant block nearby…

    On Christmas Day in 2017, he lit two fires that forced residents to flee their homes.
    The court heard he didn’t remember committing some of the offences because he was under the influence of alcohol and cannabis.
    He was arrested in March 2018 after police found videos and photos of the fires on his mobile phone.
    The judge said he didn’t show empathy or remorse for his actions, handing down a six-year sentence.
    Viles-Halstead will be eligible for parole after four years.
    https://7news.com.au/news/crime/man-jailed-for-lighting-13-fires-over-six-days-in-perths-southeast-c-541494

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  • #
    robert rosicka

    There is some information in this Facebook post that adds to the discussion on fire management and risk ,also a history lesson on the consequences of locking forests up .

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=542301319881623&id=388056525306104

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  • #
    TdeF

    Prime Minister Scott Morrison at the centre of the disaster, the evacuation centre in Taree

    ‘Mr Morrison, whose government has downplayed the threat of climate change, was also heckled about the issue at a fire command centre in nearby Wauchope.

    “Climate change is real, can’t you see,” the Australian newspaper reported a man as yelling before he was escorted out of the building.’

    Is there no end to the disaster caused by a massive one degree in an average in a hundred years. This would never have happened under Kevin Rudd or Julia Gillard or Bill Shorten. Morrison is the problem, apparently. Perhaps if we stop driving for a day, the terrible bushfires will stop? We need to ask leading Climate Scientist Al Gore or Dead Kangaroo expert Flannery.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      And yet there has been no atmospheric warming over Australia in close to 20 years

      https://i.postimg.cc/gkP0QLgq/UAH_Australia.png

      41

      • #
        TdeF

        It’s now ocean warming without explanation because of Climate Change. How else is the Great Barrier Reef a victim of Climate Change? Of course scientists say atmospheric CO2 levels will not rise with a warming ocean stuffed with CO2 but ocean CO2 will rise. This fantasy physical chemistry is called Ocean Acidification which will also destroy the planet, even though no ocean is acid. It’s all science nonsense.

        And each year there must be a huge struggle to get the world temperature over the line as the next warmest year, even by 0.004C where any reasonable person would say that a difference of 0.004C meant the temperatures were absolutely identical. That in turn raises the question of whether anyone is fiddling the figures because the chance of being so close together is absolutely zero.

        At least our BOM is doing their job moving the goal posts. You wonder how many people are involved in this?. A fiddle here, a fiddle there. Adjust the data to suit their IPCC warming story. I would suggest just a few at the top. After all, with the level of automation you would really expect the BOM to be shrinking rapidly. Like the ABC. But organizations expand past their useful point, like the multicultural SBS in the age of the internet. All at our expense, like city councils which are so money hungry.

        Sell the lot. CSIRO,BOM, ABC, SBS and close the useless quangoes which have grown up around windmills. Legislate that councils can only spend on city needs, not social fashions. Limit staff levels. Who said we desperately needed a National grid or an NBN? Both are simply socialism, like oil rich Venezuela where the lights are out permanently and gangs and soldiers control the country supported by the Cubans and the Russians. Meanwhile the US is now a nett exporter of oil thanks to fracking which is banned in Australia.

        Meanwhile VIctoria Socialist Premier Daniel Andrews is banning logging and has banned grazing in the high country, all to increase the risk of bushfires due to Climate Change. Of course.

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  • #

    To say that “this” has never happened before is one of those things you can’t argue against. They probably learn these stunts at GeeUp school.

    “This” has never happened before because something else happened before. You might as well say the something-else will never happen again as say “this” has never happened before. You cannot duplicate massive fire disasters, you can only know what conditions are most likely to cause them, what measures are worth taking and what neglect can make them more serious.

    Duplication can happen but proves little. People are not likely to remember that there were Tassie fires in 1897-8 which covered much the same area as the 1967 disaster. 1854, 1913–15, 1926–27, 1933–34, 1940–42, 1960–61 were other fire disasters in Tassie. They did not have to be duplicates of 1854 or 1967 to be special disasters.

    Really, we just need to remember we live on a continent where this happens…https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/federation-drought

    In other words, what Dorothea said.

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    • #
      beowulf

      Dorothea who? She’s no longer taught in schools and revisionist urban greenies are claiming My Country was just a flight of fancy of a silly teenage girl.

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    • #
      Another Ian

      Have a look at the first poster that comes up here

      https://www.longpaddock.qld.gov.au/rainfall-poster/

      I reckon the score is

      Dorothea 1 : IPCC 0

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      • #

        The one thing that drives the climatariat nuts is history.

        They’d like to see history all-but-banned. And they’re not too keen on pointers to past climate like geology, speleology, glaciology, stratigraphy, archaeology…which they’d like to see controlled like the sale of grog.

        We’re allowed to say we’re not living in our grandparents’ climate. What we’re not allowed to say is that our grandparents were not living in their grandparents’ climate.

        One can talk about this year’s climate or the climate many millions of years ago when the continents were elsewhere, but the ups and downs of the last century or the last few thousand years will bring on conniptions if you mention them. The climatariat might even attack you with a hockey-stick, so look out.

        Of course, none of this is about climate or CO2. GeeUp, whether its low-level members know it or not, is not about climate or CO2. As for conservation…it’s not in the running.

        It’s about waste and plunder and white elephants, for sure. But ultimately it’s about control. And when you think of the repellent creatures who want that control – and who already have a lot of control through their refuse media and GameBoy science and fear-and-sling politics – I reckon we have a problem.

        So let’s give ‘em history. Lots and lots of history. Like Benaud, do what the enemy most hates.

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      Serp

      The ultimate trivial banality of such vacuous thinking is that absolutely everything is unprecedented and goes back to Heraclitus who had it that “you cannot step in the same river twice”; it adds nothing to our store of knowledge unfortunately but does let you know that the speaker is a scoundrel.

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    pat

    because this is an important and informative piece – and the url has changed since I first posted it on an earlier thread – I’m posting it again. read all:

    4 Nov: Forbes: Why Everything They Say About California Fires — Including That Climate Matters Most — Is Wrong
    by Michael Shellenberger
    I asked Dr. Jon Keeley, a US Geological Survey scientist who has researched the topic for 40 years, if he thought the 2018 Paradise fire could be attributed to climate change.
    “It’s almost certainly not climate change,” he said. “We’ve looked at the history of climate and fire throughout the whole state, and through much of the state, particularly the western half of the state, we don’t see any relationship between past climates and the amount of area burned in any given year.”…

    I asked Keeley if the media’s focus on climate change frustrated him.
    “Oh, yes, very much,” he said, laughing. “Climate captures attention. I can even see it in the scientific literature. Some of our most high-profile journals will publish papers that I think are marginal. But because they find climate to be an important driver of some change, they give preference to them. It captures attention.”…
    READ ALL
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2019/11/04/why-everything-they-say-about-california-fires–including-that-climate-matters-most–is-wrong/

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    AndyG55

    1851 Black Thursday…. 5 million hectares burnt

    1938 Black Friday…. 2 million hectares burnt

    1944 Victoria…. 1 million hectares burnt

    1961, WA bushfires…. 1.8 million hectares burnt

    1974/75 NSW bushfires.. 4.5 million hectares burnt

    1980 Waterfall bushfire… 1 million hectares burnt.

    1984/85 NSW bushfires.. 3.5 million hectares burnt

    2003 Tenterden WA….. 2.1 million hectares burnt

    2003 East Vic alpine.. 1.3 million hectares burnt

    2006/7 Great Divides Vic.. 1 million hectares burnt

    2009 Black Saturday Vic… 450,000 hectares burnt.. lots of property loss

    2011 Carnarvon WA… 800,000 hectares burnt

    2019 to date (11/11/2019) in NSW and Qld… 700,000 hectares burnt

    Now tell us its “unprecedented” !!!

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    PeterS

    I see some parallels between the reaction by the alarmist commenting on the current fires and some dementia patients who suffer a reasonably well known disorder called catastrophic reaction. Perhaps one day there will be a study conducted to see if the alarmists are suffering from dementia or some other similar cause. One thing is for sure; they do need medical help since all common sense, logic and scientific reasoning are thrown out the window when they try to convince everyone else why we must solve the alleged climate change catastrophe. This includes some in politics and business.

    10

  • #
    PeterS

    A number of special interest groups are now advertising on TV and other media outlets telling us we must stop coal mining and the use of coal to fix the alleged climate catastrophe related bush fires we are experiencing here in Australia. As usual the LNP remain aloof and ignore the adverts instead of fighting back with the truth. It’s one reason the LNP have such a hard time winning over enough voters to make the ALP and Greens scared of becoming extinct. The LNP rarely ever puts up a fight. Not sure of the real reason but I suspect arrogance is part of it. So the LNP let the nonsense be broadcasted uncontested allowing so many gullible people to vote for the ALP+Greens to protest against the coal lobby. It really is time Morrison pulled his finger out and fight the war instead of pretending it doesn’t exist. Of course that’s hard for him since he lives in the Canberra bubble but a really astute leader would be aware of that and have his finger on the pulse of the nation.

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  • #
    • #

      If you think the protests in respect of this so called ‘climate crisis’ are bad now, wait and see what they are like when they take away coal fired power.

      There will literally, be anarchy in the streets. No one will be able to control it.

      If you read the unmitigated cr@p in that article linked to above, you can only have fear for what is going to happen.

      Tony.

      120

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        Srsly – when will that happen?

        06

        • #
        • #

          4AM every single morning, total power consumption 18,000MW average, the average minimum power consumption for every day of the year. It rises from that every day to an average of around 24,500MW.

          Of that minimum 18,000MW, coal fired power delivers 80% of that, or 14,000MW, and of that average, coal fired power delivers 70%.

          Take that away, and there is nothing. You only need to take away one plant in each of the three States still with coal fired power really. No matter how much wind, solar, (zero at 4AM anyway) and hydro there may be, the grid will be at zero anyway.

          Then watch the anarchy.

          That Fitzroy is when it will happen.

          You and your socialist co followers will be looking for rocks to hide under then, whistling and saying hey, this had nothing to do with me.

          The fury will be nothing like what you see at the moment.

          Tony.

          70

          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            Srsly, when

            you post this comment around once a week, but without a timeline.

            I’ve not seen any proposal to remove all coal fired power, before there is a suitable alternative, yet you put on your chicken costume and squark about a completely imaginary event.

            /the sky is red, but it is not falling

            06

            • #
              AndyG55

              Seriously WHY…

              …. are you still are totally incapable of providing any real scientific evidence of warming by atmospheric CO2

              No the sky isn’t falling.

              Just natural Australian climate variability.

              Getting rid of coal fired power would be the stupidest thing we could do, as it would destroy any facility to fight this tough Australian climate.

              Without RELIABLE electricity, there would be no communication.

              Maybe a good thing that YOU stopped using it,

              then we wouldn’t get your incessant idiotic gibbering.

              ” yet you put on your chicken costume and squark about a completely imaginary event.”

              Tony isn’t talking about imaginary human cause AGW PF.. that is your headless chicken-little cackle meme.

              70

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        you could mount a protest, except scomo wants to ban that sort of thing

        06

        • #
          AndyG55

          Come on PF, I DARE you to go without RELIABLE electricity, even for a couple of days.

          No wind or sun, then turn off your electricity.. I dare you

          (although you would NEVER be honest about it)

          You are nothing but a gibbering cowardly hypocrite.

          Nothing wrong with a protest, so long as you aren’t stopping normal people going about their business.

          Its retards like the Stinkies that block traffic and bridges for absolutely no real identifiable reason that need to face the full force of jail time.

          Protests based on imaginary religious beliefs.

          Take them elsewhere and leave normal people alone.

          40

  • #
    hillbilly33

    Johannes (son of Bill) Leak sums it up nicely.

    https://ibb.co/wgRzRhd

    h/t to Jeff of FNQ

    80

  • #
    pat

    11 Nov: news.com.au: NSW bushfires: Catastrophic fire rating declared for Sydney, Hunter regions
    NSW Police Strikeforce Tronto has been monitoring known arsonists and two Arson Squad detectives are now in Glenn Innes, where two lives were lost, to help prepare a report for the coroner and also investigate if the blaze was deliberately lit…

    The fires over northern NSW were so fierce they created their own weather pattern and clouds capable of producing lightning which may have ignited new fires…
    (Bushfire expert & former chief fire control office of the ACT Roger Fenwick) said humidity and the amount of fuel available is a major factor for fires like the ones being experienced.
    “When fuel is heated it loses its moisture content and drives off flammable gases which burn as flames in a process known as pyrolysis,” he said. Low humidity takes moisture flues such as trees and leaves speeding up the pyrolysis.
    In Friday’s blazes spot fires were reported to have started 12km away from drifting embers. The world record for an ember spotted fire is 70km…
    https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/residents-told-to-go-to-safe-centres-as-catastrophic-firestorm-heads-for-sydney-hunter-regions/news-story/18ad557e5d3bd0524ba875138d9a7c85

    OPINION: Arsonists who cause bushfires should do life
    News Mail – 2 hours ago
    The heartbreak for all of those who have lost their homes in the fires has been massive. Arsonists caught starting these fires should face life in prison…

    20

  • #
    pat

    behind paywall:

    ABC DECLARES WAR ON CULTURE AND CONSERVATIVES by Andrew Bolt
    Herald Sun – 5h ago
    It’s now a week since the ABC broadcast calls for political violence, including arson and murder, but the ABC’s boss still can’t say that was wrong…

    VIDEO: 6min49sec: Sky News: ABC is ‘out of control and captured by radical left-wingers’
    Sky News host Rowan Dean says the ABC is “out of control” after Monday’s Q&A episode “disgracefully advocated for civil insurrection, vigilantism, murder, arson, wanton destruction, vandalism and lawlessness all promoted at taxpayers’ expense”…
    https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6102262083001

    VIDEO: 3min18sec: 17 Oct: Sky News: ABC’s eye-watering salaries, climate change agenda are ‘your taxes at work’
    “In a world where tax dollars are so precious, what a disgrace it is that so much of your money is wasted on [Paul] Barry’s attempts to hide the truth he doesn’t like on climate change, and bend and manipulate the truth about people he doesn’t like – like Sky News,” Mr Kenny said.
    Mr Kenny then rounded on the eye-watering salaries paid to the MediaWatch team.
    “MediaWatch host Paul Barry, for instance, is paid $200,000 a year to produce 15 minutes of television a week… Barry’s boss, Gaven Morris, who you’d make complaints to about MediaWatch if I thought it would do any good, is paid $600,000 a year,” the Kenny Report host said.
    “He is paid more than the prime minister and he can’t even get Barry to check his facts for 15 minutes a week.
    “Your taxes at work.”
    https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6095418692001

    30

  • #
    pat

    why go on theirABC at all?

    AUDIO: 11min55sec: 11 Nov: ABC Breakfast: Deputy PM slams ‘raving inner city lunatics’ for bushfire climate link
    Presenter: Hamish Macdonald
    Guest: Michael McCormack, Deputy Prime Minister
    Editor’s note: The office for Federal Minister David Littleproud says that the Minister has received no formal request for a meeting from Greg Mullins or the Emergency Leaders for Climate Action.
    The Minister has now instructed his staff to reach out and set up a meeting.
    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/deputy-pm-slams-raving-inner-city-lunatics/11691358

    paraphrasing.

    4min07sec to the end: ABC’s Macdonald has no interest in this interview until this point, where he becomes passionate: this has taken on a political dimension pretty quicky & you have had particularly strong words for the Green MP, Adam Bandt. why are you so upset about people like Adam Bandt raising the question of climate change ? the drought and the conditions that have enabled these fires to take on so fast?

    Macdonald interrupts response. but why is it wrong to ask those questions?

    McCormack responds and also mentions Richard DiNatale’s climate change comments.

    Macdonald: it’s just that it’s not only them. it’s also the Mayor of Glen Innes, Carol Sparks, who has also said it is climate change in her view. she said it was unbelievable that the Prime Minister sidesteps the question. I’ll read you a quote from her – “we are so impacted by drought and the lack of rain; it is climate change; there is no doubt about it” – you are talking about her too.

    McCormack: reducing global emissions blah blah…

    Macdonald: with respect, Deputy Prime Minister, it’s not just Adam Bandt. I have in front of me a letter from the Emergency leaders for climate change – a group of 22 former Emergency services leaders – one dated April this year, alerting your govt to the threat of increasingly catostrophic extreme weather events, putting lives, property & livelihoods at greater risk. I have another letter from the same group in September of this year, asking your govt why you won’t give them a meeting. hasn’t your govt given them those meetings yet?

    Macdonald interrupts McCormack’s answer: with respect, that is not answering the question. has this group of respected emergency services leaders been granted…

    McCormack: they haven’t sought a meeting with me…

    Macdonald: well, they sought a meeting with Minister Littleproud & Minister Taylor, which they’ve had great difficulty in achieving, so much so they again wrote to the Prime Minister in September, saying we asked you back in April for these meetings, we really believe there’s an urgent need for this, we’re willing to fly to Canberra. have these meetings occurred to your knowledge?

    McCormack answers…

    Macdonald interrupts: Deputy Prime Minister, I don’t know why you keep talking about Adam Bandt. I’m asking you about Emergency services leaders – 22 of them – respected individuals, who have written to your govt. this is not a question about Adam Bandt. you are saying that now is not the time to talk about climate change and its connection to the fires, but it seems that April this year wasn’t, September this year wasn’t. when is
    the right time to have that conversation? ETC ETC

    30

    • #
      pat

      ABC “Breakfast” continued with 2 more bushfire segments (not listening so don’t know if CAGW comes up).

      then:

      National Recycling Week: plastic, paper waste exports to be banned
      Waste Reduction Minister Trevor Evans on the federal-state agreement to ban the export of plastic waste by 2022.

      Explosive allegations of Russian influence in UK Conservative Party

      Politics with Michelle Grattan
      (Macdonald brings up his McCormack interview/bushfires/climate change; Grattan suggests it’s a debate for after the crisis is over)

      Finance with Michael Janda
      How many population centres will become uninsurable, as climate change extends and intensifies fire seasons around the world?

      Bolivia’s bushfires ignite political crisis — World News with Matt Bevan
      The fires, which were spread across Brazil, Bolivia, Peru and Paraguay were blamed on the effects of climate change, but also on widespread deforestation for agriculture.
      As the fires burned in Bolivia, protesters took to the streets to blame the President Evo Morales for allowing deforestation for farming.
      President Morales won the October general election, but many claim the election had been fixed.
      Nationwide protests have intensified overnight, with the mayor of regional town Vinto assaulted by anti-government protesters.

      not even the rest of the FakeNewsMSM tries to link the now collapse of the Bolivian govt to CAGW!

      WaPo: Bolivia’s Morales resigns amid scathing election report, rising protests

      CNN: Bolivian President Evo Morales steps down following accusations of election fraud

      20

    • #
      Brian

      I have to ask. If the current fires are attributable to global warming why were the 1939 fires which burned our 20,000 kilometer squared and killed 71 people or the even earlier Federation drought fires so much worse. Surely they are not arguing that climate change is having a mitigating effect on the intensity of the bushfire cycle?

      50

    • #
      pat

      at the end of the interview with McCormack, he wonders about who the Emergency leaders for climate change might be:

      10 Apr: Climate Council: Emergency Leaders: Australia unprepared for worsening extremes
      By Greg Mullins
      For the first time, 23 former Fire and Emergency Leaders with more than 600 years of combined experience have banded together to call for stronger action on climate change, warning that worsening extreme weather is threatening Australian lives…
      To find out more about the Emergency Leaders for Climate Action, visit the website LINK…
      DOWNLOAD THE JOINT STATEMENT HERE
      TEXT
      Pitch in to spread this statement far and wide. Your contribution will kick-start the campaign to call for urgent action and decisive federal, state and territory leadership on climate change.
      https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/emergency-leaders-climate-action/

      and the Glen Innes Mayor, Carol Sparks, who ABC’s Macdonald quotes, and who has made a lot of headlines recently?

      AAP: ‘It’s climate change, there’s no doubt about it’: NSW mayor’s community devastated by bushfires
      The Sydney Morning Herald – 9 Nov 2019
      Carol Sparks was among residents evacuated as the Kangawalla fire east of Glen Innes in the Northern Tablelands burned on Friday…
      Ms Sparks has no doubt global warming is increasing the number of fires and their intensity…

      as posted earlier:

      11 Nov: news.com.au: NSW bushfires: Catastrophic fire rating declared for Sydney, Hunter regions
      NSW Police Strikeforce Tronto has been monitoring known arsonists and two Arson Squad detectives are now in Glenn Innes, where two lives were lost, to help prepare a report for the coroner and also investigate if the blaze was deliberately lit…

      Nov 2018: GlenInnesExaminer: Carol Sparks, Glen Innes’ first Green and first lady mayor, is addressing women and youth concerns
      by Nicholas Fuller
      Just over a month into her office, the town’s first Green and first lady mayor is working hard to reduce worryingly high levels of domestic violence, and help youth.
      Last week, Cr Sparks attended a country mayors’ meeting in Sydney, where she discussed the urgent need to recruit more doctors, as well as converting plastic waste into energy.
      “I’m for social justice and the environment,” she said, “and I am concerned about climate change and the effect it has on our lands.”…

      But, Cr Sparks explained, while she’s a Green, she’s not a party politician. As a councillor, she swore an oath to put the community first.
      “It’s not unusual to have people in council say what party they belong to,” she said.
      “It’s an unusual thing for Glen Innes, as is being a woman mayor!”…
      https://www.gleninnesexaminer.com.au/story/5747663/new-mayor-has-an-open-door-policy/

      18 Apr: GlenInnesExaminer: Mayor Carol Sparks will be part of an anti-Adani convoy led by ex-Senator Bob Brown
      by Andrew Messenger
      A quartet of activists including mayor Sparks and husband Badja will meet the convoy in Coffs harbour on Sunday…

      Mayor Sparks said former Senator Bob Brown will be travelling back through Glen Innes
      “We’re going to get a few people on the road to wave them through,” she said.
      She said she is excited about the rally.

      “I think this is a good opportunity to stand up and have a say about how we’re going to save the planet!”…
      https://www.gleninnesexaminer.com.au/story/6080471/glen-innes-mayor-to-protest-adani-coal-mine/

      10

      • #
        pat

        10 Apr: New Daily: Australia unprepared for worsening wild weather, ex-emergency chiefs warn
        The group of 23 ex-top brass fired a salvo against Prime Minister Scott Morrison as well as state and territory governments in a signed joint letter issued in Melbourne on Wednesday.
        “We are deeply concerned about the lack of climate action at a national level and felt obligated to speak out,” former NSW Fire and Rescue commissioner Greg Mullins said.
        “In the last year we’ve seen unseasonal fires in Tasmania, Victoria, NSW, Queensland and Western Australia, floods and twin cyclones in parts of northern Australia, longer bushfire danger periods and fires burning in rainforests.
        “Rising greenhouse gas pollution from the burning of coal, oil and gas is worsening extreme weather and putting people in danger.”…

        They also want a federal parliamentary inquiry into whether emergency services are adequately resourced to cope and funding for strategic national emergency management assets, like aircraft…
        https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2019/04/10/wild-weather-emergency-services/

        7 Mar: Climate Council: Author: Greg Mullins: Bushfires: New Report: The Angriest Summer
        Greg Mullins is an internationally recognised expert in responding to major bushfires and natural disasters and developed a keen interest in the linkages between climate change and extreme weather events. He coordinated responses to many major natural disasters over more than 2 decades and retired as Commissioner of Fire & Rescue NSW in January 2017.

        During his 39 year career he served as President, Vice President and Board Chair of the Australasian Fire & Emergency Service Authorities’ Council, Deputy Chair of the NSW State Emergency Management Committee, Australian Director of the International Fire Chiefs Association of Asia, NSW representative on the Australian Emergency Management Committee, Australian representative on the UN’s International Search & Rescue Advisory Committee, and as a member of the NSW Bushfire Coordinating Committee. He is currently Chair of the NSW Ambulance Service Advisory Board.

        In 2004 he was invited to address the International Fire Science Conference in Ireland on the impacts of climate change on emergency services. As acting Chair of the NSW State Emergency Management Committee in 2005-6 he re-established a Climate Change Working Group focussed on adaptation and was a member of the NSW Government’s Climate Change Council from 2007-16…
        https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/author/greg-mullins/

        11 Sept: 10Daily: The All-Important Weapons Fighting Australia’s ‘Catastrophic’ Fires
        by Victoria Quested
        “As part of the overall fighting arsenal, they’re an essential piece of equipment today,” Ken Thompson, a former deputy commissioner in the NSW Fire and Rescue Service, told 10 daily…
        Thompson is among 23 former emergency service bosses calling on the government for stronger action on climate change, including the provision of more federally-funded resources to help deal with the increasing fire danger.
        With signatories from every state and territory, the Emergency Leaders for Climate Change formed earlier this year in an unprecedented show of unity…
        https://10daily.com.au/news/australia/a190910ygdkb/the-all-important-weapons-fighting-australias-catastrophic-fires-20190911

        10

        • #
          pat

          AUDIO: 5min40sec: 11 Nov: ABC The World Today: Former NSW Fire chief frustrated at Govt for ‘sweeping climate change under the rug’
          By Eleanor Hall
          Ken Thompson was Deputy Commissioner of Fire & Rescue in NSW until 2011.
          He is the co-founder of the group, Emergency Leaders for Climate Action, which includes 23 former senior fire and emergency services leaders from across the nation, with more than 600 years of experience between them.

          They’ve been requesting a meeting with the Prime Minister to discuss how to better prepare for the worsening extreme weather, that they say is being spurred by climate change.
          Not only has the PM so far refused to meet them but today, the Deputy Prime Minister has called the integrity of those in the group into question.

          Ken Thompson says he’s frustrated and disappointed by the way he and his fellow senior fire-fighters have been rebuffed by the Federal government.
          https://www.abc.net.au/radio/melbourne/programs/worldtoday/former-nsw-fire-chief-frustrated-at-govt/11692232

          10

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            “, Emergency Leaders for Climate Action, which includes 23 former senior fire and emergency services leaders from across the nation, with more than 600 years of experience between them.”

            And a total IQ of 1380.

            That’s 2.3 IQ points per year of experience.

            KK

            20

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    “Thoughts and prayers”.

    You could substitute solar panels and windmills for thoughts and prayers.

    Neither will stop bushfires.

    https://www.examiner.com.au/story/6484046/climate-reality-needs-more-than-thoughts-and-prayers/

    20

  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    NSW RFS has added the The Illawarra to the Catastrophic list for tomorrow. ScMo’s thoughts and prayers are working out a treat.

    While AGW is not the prime driver in these fires, it is making it a lot worse.

    /physics – I understand it and you don’t

    39

    • #
      Screaming Nutbag

      Surely you’re not adding atheism to your list of sins?

      43

    • #
      el gordo

      ‘While AGW is not the prime driver in these fires, it is making it a lot worse.’

      Its not AGW, the collapse of the STR is exacerbating the conditions.

      30

    • #
      el gordo

      Tomorrow’s forecast, a gusty cold air outbreak.

      https://www.weatherzone.com.au/synoptic.jsp?d=1

      10

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        quick el gordo, email the RFS, Tell them they are wrong and are making people worry unnecessarily, include the link as they are oblivious to what the weather is going to be like.

        meanwhile I will check the contents of my bug out bag

        16

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        form your link
        Hot, dry, dusty winds ahead of a trough will raise fire danger in central Australia, QLD and NSW. A front will send a blustery cooler change across SA, TAS, VIC then much of NSW but only bring showers to the far south

        your date stamp is 22:00 hours, which in old school time is 10 PM

        17

        • #
          AndyG55

          Yes its called WEATHER.

          And in case you are totally and perpetually unaware (nothing unusual about that, is there, PF)..

          … Hot blustery westerly winds in spring often fan dangerous bushfires.

          And now, with the added fuel load due to greenie councils not allowing winter burn-offs, , and the drought conditions due to the anomalously cold NE and N waters of Australia, and the wobbly jet stream giving cycles of cold and hot…

          they can be expected to get quite bad.

          ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ATMOSPHERIC CO2

          71

        • #
          AndyG55

          “Hot, dry, dusty winds ahead of a trough “

          Well that is truly UNPRECEDENTED, isn’t it PF ! ;-)

          61

        • #
          el gordo

          The point is that a quiet sun has collapsed the subtropical ridge, the jetstream has become a sine wave and created blocking highs.

          The cool south westerly is problematic but probably not unprecedented. I’ll have a look around the 1950s and 60s for a perfect match.

          20

        • #
          el gordo

          In 1957 they had the same weather, hot westerlies followed by a cool south westerly.

          https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/91251744

          It was a time of global cooling and we were in the thick of it.

          30

    • #
      el gordo

      Also, notice how the blocking highs are all over the place, atmospheric chaos in midlatitudes.

      30

    • #
      AndyG55

      “/physics – I understand it and you don’t”

      You understand DIDDLY SQUAT about any real science., PF

      You keep displaying that ignorance in your every comment.

      51

    • #
      AndyG55

      “it is making it a lot worse. “

      More UNSUBSTANTIATED BS from PF

      ZERO EVIDENCE. !!

      Just normal Australian westerly wind drought WEATHER conditions.

      41

    • #
      Dennis

      The land of droughts and flooding rains …….

      The present drought is only one of the worst since white settlement in 1788, and there were severe droughts long before that.

      70

    • #
      Tel

      /physics – I understand it and you don’t

      Coming from the guy who complains about personal abuse … and strangely fails to show any of this powerful understanding that he alone can detect.

      Please use your physics genius to explain why after Penrith measured a high temperature of 29˚ yesterday and 32˚ today (not even properly a hot day), why do we have a declared “Catastrophic Fire Danger” plus a state of emergency declared by the goofball Premier? Supposedly “the most dangerous bushfire week this nation has ever seen”. Do you really think that when the high temp of the day is in the low 30′s it would rate as “catastrophic” ? Must be some astounding physics behind this, I would love to hear it.

      50

      • #
        AndyG55

        PF’s idea of fizzics come from some distant fantasy world called La-La-Land.

        He has shown in the past, that he basically hasn’t got a clue !

        11

    • #
      yarpos

      Stayed in a holiday house in Bulli lasy year. Once again , whole suburbs built in the forest. Would never stay there in summer.

      10

    • #
      toorightmate

      DROGO,
      Are you sure you are not Roy Fitzpeter?

      00

  • #
    RoHa

    I’ve got solar panels, so you can’t blame me for the bushfires. For your high electricity prices, yes, but not the fires.

    80

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    Heh.
    The climate zombies are starting to eat each other whilst jumping sharks …

    Dear Michael McCormack: the only ‘raving lunatics’ are those not worrying about [doomsday global warming]

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/11/dear-michael-mccormack-the-only-raving-lunatics-are-those-not-worrying-about-climate-change?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    10

  • #
    Drapetomania

    Luckily they dropped fire starting flares on the wrong side of the river for their faux attempt at a back burn in the blue mts near Wentworth falls..and that was it…my mate tried to build a concrete dome fireproof house years ago in the bush here.Banned by council..

    50

  • #
    Dennis

    For Peter Fitzroy;

    There was a rather tense moment during Gladys Berejiklian’s press conference with Shane Fitzsimmons a few moments ago.
    A reporter confronted the NSW Premier with the accusation that her government cut funding to the Rural Fire Service. She punted the question to the Commissioner.
    “Gosh, can I say, I will let the Commissioner answer that question because I’m worried about my response,” Ms Berejiklian said.
    “I don’t me how many times we got to publicly address this. I have addressed this with various media outlets that have been fed this story,” said Mr Fitzsimmons.
    “It is rubbish. It is misinformation. It’s been misrepresented and I think it’s disgracefully been misrepresented here today in these sorts of circumstances.
    “Not only has our budget not been cut, we are enjoying record budgets. We have got more money today than we have ever had before in the history of the organisation. We have got record funding in particular programs.
    “We’re the only jurisdiction in this country that’s got a dedicated large air tanker with a budget impact of something like $26 million to make that possible.
    “I just wish this story would stop floating around. It does nothing to serve the cause. We are in the business of instilling community confidence. All these red herrings do is detract from our efforts to instil confidence.”

    80

    • #
      Dennis

      The NSW air tanker is a Boeing 737 that can reach any part of the state within one hour from take off.

      I was told yesterday that the NSW Coalition Government is also funding extension of the runway at various regional airfields so that the 737 can land, refuel and refill fire fighting materials.

      60

      • #
        Another Ian

        Dennis

        IIEC the problem with land based tankers is speed of turn around on the ground – particularlly refill. Have they boosted the water supply at those aerodromes?

        According to this

        https://fireaviation.com/2017/05/21/coulson-to-convert-737s-into-air-tankers/

        a 737 will carry 4000 (US?) gallons

        For comparison when Canada was using Martin Mars flying boats they could drop 6000 gallons every 15 minutes. Took 22 seconds to load on the go.

        (“Mighty Mars”, Flypast December 1989)

        A mite unpractical for Oz though, as they needed 5 miles of lake – and are now out of service.

        60

    • #
      Peter Fitzroy

      So – I can play this game too. Record Funding is just lying with facts. There is record funding for Social Services, Pensions, etc. It is true in that every year the amount of money is devaluded by inflation, requiring a top up. Do you understand?

      So I can fund 50% of the need, with say 10 million in 2010, and double that in 2020 to 20 million (a new record) but at the same time inflation means that the 20 million only buys what 9 million did in 2010. Still with me?

      At no time have I lied, but at no time have met the underlying cost of the operation, which is why it is dependant on donations and volunteers.

      /Logic I use it, but you don’t

      19

      • #
        AndyG55

        ” I can play this game too”

        All you ever do.

        Zero facts, zero evidence

        just one insipid childish game to you.

        Logic is something you are totally incapable of.

        “At no time have I lied”

        You most certainly HAVE lied.. basically all the time.

        DISHONESTY is inbuilt into your empty lack of person.

        RECORD FUNDING by the NSW Liberal Government. Far more than Labor/green

        And an allowance for others to contribute.

        GET OVER IT !!

        .. and stop your loathsome slithering.

        72

      • #
        Yonniestone

        Holy crap you must love the sound of your own voice, big news no one else does!!

        70

        • #
          Peter Fitzroy

          i was answering a question form Dennis, so what is your beef?

          /that logic statement again

          17

        • #

          Have we all noticed something here.

          This person who uses Peter Fitzroy as his screen name gives not one person credit for knowledge in their own fields. HE, Fitzroy is the arbiter of all knowledge on EVERY subject known to Man. No one else knows a single thing, and we all rely on him for any knowledge we may pick up. He hasn’t a good word to say about anyone, and at every chance with every comment seeks to denigrate every other commenter. And because he is from the Socialist extreme left, he thinks that gives him alone the license to get away with the racism and homophobic comments he has posted of late, and he’s so far from the left, I’m willing to bet he doesn’t even think he did just that.

          I’ve met a lot of know it alls in my life, and most of them had a little knowledge about something, but Fitzroy is the only one who knows NOTHING about EVERYTHING, and then proceeds to demonstrate it with every comment.

          His Greens Party handlers must be so proud of him.

          Seriously, he makes Pixie Anne Wheatley look like Sir Isaac Newton.

          Fitzroy, please, whatever you do, don’t ever stop posting your comments here.

          Tony.

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            Peter Fitzroy

            how droll – do you dispute the record funding calculation, or are just here for the name calling

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            • #
              Kalm Keith

              “record funding calculation”

              I believe that a small amount was put aside by Elvis’s supporters as a guarantee for the recording and marketing costs and that they were all repaid within six months with a one off bonus.

              Care is always needed with record funding.

              KK

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            • #
              AndyG55

              Record funding for RFS..

              Great News hey PF…

              Keep your LIES and DECEIT coming PF,

              … they epitomise the greenie scum agenda..

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            • #
              AndyG55

              and the PF comedy routine continues

              dig dig dig.. he cannot help himself. !! :-)

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        Dennis

        New South Wales Government does not pay pensions Peter, Centrelink is a Commonwealth responsibility, Federal Budget expense.

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    pat

    Sky News just had panel of 3 with plenty of criticism of Michael McCormack for his criticism of Bandt/DiNitale etc. could have been an ABC panel.

    btw re the co-founder of Emergency leaders for Climate Change – Ken Thompson – who was guest on ABC’s The World Today, posted above. so many fascinating bits at LinkedIn:

    LinkedIn: Ken Thompson, CEO at Thompson Consulting
    Consultant & Advisor, Self Employed, Sep 2012 – Present
    I provide consulting and advice on a range of issues including Strategic Planning, Risk Management, Cultural Change, Political Engagement, & other matters such as the implications of Climate Change for business.

    Lead Candidate for NSW State Parliament – Upper House
    Australian Cyclists Party (ACP)
    Feb 2015 – Mar 2015·
    The ACP stands for improved cycling infrastructure across NSW. The benefits include improved health & safety, improved “active options” for transport irrespective of age & gender, increased tourism opportunities, & reductions in the negative effects of greenhouse gas emissions…

    Deputy Commissioner, NSW Fire Brigades (now Fire & Rescue NSW)
    2007 – Apr 2010

    Education includes, JCU, Uni of Qld etc plus

    University of British Columbia
    Climate Change: The Science
    2018 – 2018

    Harvard – Climate Change science & earth’s energy balance
    2018-2018

    Columbia Uni NYC
    Climate Action: solutions for a changing planet
    2019-2019

    Volunteer Experience
    ***Climate Change Ambassador for former US Vice President Al Gore
    Climate Change Project – Australian Conservation Foundation (ACF)
    The presentation is designed to encourage organisations & individuals to incorporate climate change issues into their Risk Management & Business Continuity Plans.
    I would be happy to deliver the presentation to anyone who would like to learn more about this critical issue. I deliver this presentation on a voluntary basis without charge on behalf of the Australian Conservation Foundation (ACF) & Mr Gore.
    I received personal training from former US Vice President & Nobel Prize winner Al Gore on his personal presentation about climate change. This is the same presentation Mr Gore used in the multi-award winning documentary “An Inconvenient Truth”.
    I have delivered this presentation to many public & private sector organisations to raise awareness about the role they play in increasing or reducing the emission of gases that contribute to climate change as described by the United Nations International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).
    The presentation is designed to encourage organisations & individuals to incorporate climate change issues into their Risk Management & Business Continuity Plans…

    Campaign Manager
    Animal Justice Party (AJP)
    Apr 2019 – May 2019·
    Campaign Manager for the AJP candidate in the electorate of ***Warringah (Heather Barnes) in the 2019 Federal Election.

    Licenses & Certifications
    ***Making Sense of Climate Science Denial
    University of Queensland, Brisbane, Australia
    Issued Mar 2018
    https://au.linkedin.com/in/ken-thompson-b36554b

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      pat

      one person on the Sky panel brought up how McCormack’s own constituents are holding climate vigils outside his office, as if they were ordinary folk. one is Dr. Trudi Beck. her twitter page tells the story, anti-Adani, end coal, tweets from the “woke”, etc:

      Twitter: Trudi Beck, Wagga Wagga
      https://twitter.com/becktrudi?lang=en

      behind paywall:

      21 Jun: Daily Advertiser: Fridays for the future group begins in Wagga, hosting weekly ‘picnic protests’ outside Michael McCormack’s office
      by Emma Horn
      PICNIC POLICIES: Trudi Beck with four-month-old Harriet Mumme, and Emilie Nuck during Friday’s ‘picnic protest’ outside the office of the deputy prime minister.
      Shortly before the birth of her third child, Trudi Beck was filled with “overwhelming despair”…

      18 Jul: Guardian: Deputy PM Michael McCormack accused of disputing evidence of global heating
      Wagga GP says Australia’s deputy prime minister told meeting past recordings of temperature ‘were not as accurately measured’
      by Ben Smee
      Australia’s deputy prime minister, Michael McCormack, had told a constituent in Wagga Wagga he disputed evidence of global heating because historical weather measurements might be inaccurate, according to notes from a meeting last month.
      The Wagga City Council, at the heart of McCormack’s electorate, declared a climate change emergency last week.

      The remarkable statement by the city leaders, in a normally conservative part of the country susceptible to extremes of drought, fire and flood, has intensified local pressure on McCormack to clarify his position…
      Wagga-based general practitioner Dr Trudi Beck, who has been central to a community push for the council’s climate emergency declaration, met McCormack at his office on 24 June…

      “When asked if [McCormack believed] in climate change [he] stated that the climate has always been changing and made reference to various flood and drought events over the past 120 years,” the meeting notes say.
      “When asked what [McCormack] would make of data from meteorological agencies that 18 of the 19 hottest years on record have been in the last 18 years [he] suggested that earlier measurements of temperature by agencies such as the Bureau of Meteorology were not as accurately measured.”…

      Beck and other community members in Wagga have begun “Fridays for the Future” demonstrations, where they picnic in a small park near McCormack’s office. Beck says the deputy prime minister told her she should abandon the actions and “do something useful like volunteer for Meals on Wheels instead”…
      https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/jul/19/deputy-pm-michael-mccormack-accused-of-disputing-evidence-of-global-heating

      not exactly a local:

      Training program helping to bring general practitioners to country practices
      Daily Advertiser – 15 May 2017
      LEE Jeffery and Trudi Beck did not grow up in Wagga, but after training here the two doctors love calling the city home…

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  • #
    WXcycles

    It’s the JoNova Blog! Starring, Peter Fitzroy, as the useless lump of nothing that anyone would ever want to hear from!

    I realize you don’t wish to ban such troll-ish types Jo but an ignore option beside a user’s name would be a welcome addition to prevent the clowns repeatedly snarling-up threads.

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  • #
    pat

    10 Nov: Hotair: San Francisco is receiving a gigantic Greta Thunberg mural
    by Jazz Shaw
    The event in question is the soon to be completed project of painting a gigantic mural (LINK) of child climate activist Greta Thunberg on the side of a San Francisco building. Exact dimensions aren’t given, but judging by the pictures it’s in the range of sixty feet high and forty feet wide. And that’s not weird at all… (The Guardian)…

    Guardian excerpts: The Argentine muralist Andres Iglesias, who signs his art with the pseudonym Cobre, is expected to complete the project in the central Union Square neighborhood by next week, SFGate reported…
    “Climate change is real,” Cobre told SFGate. “This girl Greta is awesome and she knows what she’s doing. I hope with this mural people will realize we have to take care of the world.”…

    This project is being constructed on private property using donations rather than taxpayer money, so as far as I’m concerned, it’s nobody else’s business unless they’re violating some city code. (And can you imagine the liberals running San Francisco complaining about a Thunberg mural even if it were?)…
    https://hotair.com/archives/jazz-shaw/2019/11/10/san-francisco-receiving-gigantic-greta-thunberg-mural/

    10 Nov: Townhall: San Francisco Voters Elect Radical District Attorney, Son of Cop-Killing Terrorists
    by Bronson Stocking
    On Saturday, San Francisco voters elected the son of two former Weather Underground murderers to serve as their District Attorney. The voters deserve all the hell that is about to break loose.
    Progressive candidate Chesa Boudin wants to free criminals but prosecute police and ICE agents for doing their jobs. It’s no surprise Boudin hates cops so much. His parents did, too. Kathy Boudin and David Gilbert were terrorists in the Weather Underground who murdered two police officers and a security guard during a 1981 robbery of a Brinks armored security car outside New York City…

    Boudin’s dad is still in prison so he can’t kill any more cops, but his mother is out. Naturally, she is an assistant professor at Columbia University…
    After his parents killed the cops, Boudin was sent to live with two other terrorists, Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn. Dohrn declared war on the United States and was on the FBI’s Most Wanted list. Ayers bombed the Pentagon, the U.S. Capitol building, and the New York City Police Department before he and Dohrn became fugitives and went into hiding. The pair eventually came out of hiding and settled in as university professors…

    As district attorney, Boudin plans to decriminalize crime and close down jails. He believes the criminal justice system is racist, and he plans to cut back on the time criminals serve under parole supervision, which he thinks is also racist. Boudin also wants to stop prosecuting gang members to the full extent of the law because he thinks that’s racist, too. He thinks everything is racist…

    Boudin was endorsed by socialist Bernie Sanders, which somehow makes him seem less radical. But he isn’t…
    https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bronsonstocking/2019/11/10/radical-son-of-cop-killing-terrorists-wins-san-fransisco-da-race-n2556228

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    pat

    AUDIO 5min40sec: 11 Nov: 2GB: Ray Hadley: Deputy Premier defends fiery ABC interview attacking climate change ‘lefties’
    The Deputy Premier is defending a heated interview where he said anyone using the bushfire emergency to talk about climate change is a “bloody disgrace”.
    John Barilaro ended an interview with ABC North Coast early after host Fiona Poole began questioning him on climate change and budget cuts.
    The state Nationals leader wasn’t having a bar of it, attacking the “bloody greenies” and “lefties” who he says are playing politics while people are dying.
    “I’m not going to cop it and if that’s going to be the rest of this interview, well you’ve lost me for the morning.”…

    Deputy Premier Barilaro went even further, saying the Greenies are actually the ones to blame for the intensity of the fires.
    “While we lock up national parks and allow that fuel load to grow, why are we surprised when these fires hit they are at the intensity they are at,” says Mr Barilaro.
    “We’ve signed up to the Paris Agreement, we’re going to reach our target, we’re doing our bit for the globe, so let’s just stop the rubbish debate and get on with the reality here and that is not allowing the Greens to stop us getting on with hazard reduction.
    “And that will be seen as the biggest part of the problem of these fires.”
    https://www.2gb.com/deputy-premier-defends-fiery-abc-interview-attacking-climate-change-lefties/

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  • #
    WXcycles

    O.T.

    This is just my feeble griping about Outsiders being canned last Sunday morning, feel free to read past this comment.

    The decision to cancel the Outsiders program on Sunday morning was not a necessary or intelligent choice. It was more of a knee-jerking to join the virtue-signalling media collective. All that replaced Outsiders was SPORTS reporting in the first hour, about the previous days’ sporting fixtures. Then repetitive day-old (at least) reports and alarmist BS about what is a fairly prosaic Spring bushfire outbreak in a dry area.

    That stuff could have been viewed on at least half a dozen (or more) other channels Sunday morning (if anyone actually wanted to). And if the lucky viewer had watched all of those ‘reports’ they’d still be none the wiser about anything which mattered to the immediate health and safety of people actually under the threat of said bushfires in the rural dry scrub. At no time did there seem to be any on-the-spot situation updates of information useful for warning or guiding people within the affected areas, as to where the fires actually were at that moment, and where they’re going to, and how fast that were moving.

    So what was the point of all this stale information-poor blah-blah and piffle?

    If you’re going to do that SKY, at least have a real-time story which can be watched for its information value, not merely joining in on the unctuous media forelock-tugging and me-to-ism stuff. I’m not giving up my Sunday morning sleeping-in time again for that sort of guff (which is the bigger issue in play here).

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    pat

    11 Nov: news.com.au: Rural firefighter’s heartbreaking plea
    A rural firefighter has issued a heartbreaking plea on social media, taking on environmental policies and saying “enough is enough”.
    by Natalie Brown
    As catastrophic fires burn across Queensland and New South Wales — with experts warning that the worst is yet to come on Tuesday — rural firefighter Tyson Smith has issued a heartbreaking plea on Facebook.
    The post, which has been shared more than 2600 times and liked by over 1600 people, asks how much more it will take before the government acknowledges current fires are the result of a larger issue…

    The “authority figures that have stood for environmental protection” over the past five years are “directly responsible for this devastation”, Smith wrote.
    “The fuel loading we are seeing out on the ground is ridiculous. We are looking at 5-10 years of growth, this fuel source is making these fires untouchable, we can’t even get near them to fight them.”…

    Smith said the environmental authorities who have a put a stop to reduction burns — which include controlled burning, mechanical clearing like slashing undergrowth, or even reducing the ground fuel by hand — “need to be held personally accountable for the losses people have endured. People have lost their lives as a direct result of the decisions made by the environmental authorities!”
    The firey ended the post, asking, “Tell me why these enviros shouldn’t be stood up in front of a judge and charged with manslaughter? Enough is enough!”…
    https://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/rural-firefighters-heartbreaking-plea/news-story/602b8b84c7092a232fd6fdceecb37f86

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    • #
      AndyG55

      ““The fuel loading we are seeing out on the ground is ridiculous. We are looking at 5-10 years of growth, this fuel source is making these fires untouchable, we can’t even get near them to fight them.””

      Puts a BIG DECEITFUL LIE to everything PF has been saying, doesn’t it !!

      What an irksome little creep he is. !!

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    • #
      Kalm Keith

      Yes!

      Yes!

      Yes!

      Governments are in charge of these “decision makers” and their current “mistakes” must be looked at in the light of past official inquiries which have made relevant determinations.

      If current actions are contrary to official findings the those responsible should pay the price.

      KK

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    • #
      Kalm Keith

      This sort of thinking should be at the core of our democratic processes.

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    • #
      RickWill

      The most effective way to get some sense into it would be for insurance companies to simply not insure any house in a council area that requires permission for residents to reduce the fuel load on their properties. Insurers have the clout to make a difference.

      Councils with such stupid restrictions need to be named and shamed. I agree that they should be held criminally liable. The Sheahan’s fine for illegal clearing by Mitchell Shire Council highlights the absolute stupidity of these council laws.

      Actually any council declaring a climate emergency are opening the door to property owners disregarding dumb laws that make it difficult to reduce fuel load on their property.

      The one certain fire risk factor that has changed in the last 40 years is the rate of growth of plants. People not alert to this fact are bound to get caught out.

      I am constantly amazed at how fast stuff grows in Melbourne after a moderately wet winter and a few sunny days in spring and early summer.

      On black Saturday in Melbourne I remember walking out of shopping centre at 11am and thinking anything could burn in these conditions. Any leafy suburb was at risk. Temperature was over 40C, humidity in single digits and steady northerly wind. Driving home I learnt, via the news, that there was a house fire in a neighbouring suburb. It was sparked by a guy using a grinder in his back yard. His property was gone; six neighbouring properties were gone and other houses damaged:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_5CMTG7l-k
      This was not even a leafy suburb. Just some lunatic with a grinder disregarding the conditions (and state laws) and people unaware of how fires behave.

      Any property owner in Australia needs to prepare ahead of the fire season. With big houses being squeezed onto ever smaller blocks, the continuity of fuel is frightening;
      https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-38.0977585,145.2976086,154m/data=!3m1!1e3
      If you are in a sardine suburb then you have to be mindful of what your neighbours are doing as well with regard to managing fire risk. Councils have no clue at all when they allow properties to be piled in so tightly.

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      • #
        Yonniestone

        Rick working outside on sites doing any sort of metal work we had to have a fire safety plan which included the correct fir extinguisher for the job.

        From memory we weren’t allowed to weld or grind outside with temps above 30c and winds? I’ll have to check but it was very strict.

        One welder tried his luck in such conditions and virtually destroyed a school portable classroom with a fire that went undetected for hours, thankfully it was empty.

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    pat

    must watch all. from the summary, you would never know Rennick is being interviewed alongside Watts, & Sky attacks him for most of the video.
    Jennifer Mahorasy’s name is cited by Rennick. at end he mentions her article was published in The Australian, the same org that owns Sky. you need to see it to get what I’m saying.
    who cares what the Sky guy’s name is – he’s the same as others on Sky, and 2GB lately, who seem to be auditioning for jobs at theirABC:

    VIDEO: 8min31sec: 11 Nov: news.com.au: Sky News: ‘Wacky, right-wing think tanks’ are inhibiting climate policy: Labor
    8:31
    Australia cannot engage in a “sensible” debate on climate change because its federal parliament is being influenced by “wacky, right wing think tanks,” according to Labor senator Murray Watts. Mr Watts was criticising his senate colleague Gerard Rennick who earlier this year accused the Bureau of Meteorology of tampering with its data to boost “global warming hysteria,” a claim the organisation denies.

    Senator Watts told Sky News Australia will not be able to craft a coherent climate policy when “elected senators are sprouting these weird ideas from right wing think tanks” that don’t have any basis in evidence.
    https://www.news.com.au/video/id-5348771529001-6102454847001/wacky-rightwing-think-tanks-are-inhibiting-climate-policy-labor

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    • #
      Environment Skeptic

      Its really all about the science. If i mix up some polystyrene and in the bubbles include some rarefied CO2 molecules, at a rate of about .1% it hardly makes any difference whatsoever to the insulating properties of the polystyrene and its ability to insulate ..…..or even to conduct heat

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    • #
      Another Ian

      Flagged from thatfor future reference

      “The model used in the 2017 NOAA study may have been defective. A 2018 NSF study made the surprise discovery that 26% of bio-available nitrogen in soil comes from rocks, so model based estimates of fire driven nitrogen depletion based on theories prevalent in 2017 were likely based on incorrect assumptions. The 2018 study authors explicitly mentioned the impact of their discovery on carbon sequestration and soil nitrogen models.”

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  • #
    Another Ian

    Might be a song about a solar panel there?

    ” To convey the urgency of climate change at a personal level, scientists have begun translating its dry data points into heart-rending melodieshttps://t.co/o88JGRGajJ

    — The New York Times (@nytimes) November 11, 2019″

    Via

    http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/index.php/2019/11/11/totally-not-a-cult/#comments

    00

  • #
    Brian

    Let me quote from a News com story, The heartfelt post from a distraught RFS member. Interestingly enough I was banned from posting this on The Australian comments.

    Quote: “How many more homes? How many more acres of destroyed forest and bushland? How many more lives? How much more do we need to endure until you Muppets realise you f**ked up?” Smith, who volunteers his time as a rural firefighter in Queensland, said that every time there is a disaster like this, “thousands of people like myself drop what we are doing and go to work. We put ourselves in harm’s way so that another family can have a house to sleep in.” The “authority figures that have stood for environmental protection” over the past five years are “directly responsible for this devastation”, Smith wrote. “The fuel loading we are seeing out on the ground is ridiculous. We are looking at 5-10 years of growth, this fuel source is making these fires untouchable, we can’t even get near them to fight them.”

    My peronal belief is that the Greens are culpable. The Green dominated councils are culpable. It is past time they were held accountable and their attempts to divert blame from their stupidity to climate change treated with contempt.

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    • #
      Peter Fitzroy

      how are the greens culpable? they are not in power, they have never been in power. The libs have 6 years in Fed, and about the same in state (NSW)/ . Blame them, not a pretend boogy man

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      • #
        AndyG55

        You know the greenie agenda has infected all branches of society

        You for instance, have a deep and putrid slime sort of infection

        MSM is infected

        All electoral parties are affected

        MANY local councils, who have first say on burn-offs, are totally infected

        As you have seen , the Libs are now putting RECORD amounts of money to try and play catch=up for the damage the greenie agenda has done.

        STOP your idiotic DENIAL of reality, PF

        makes you look like a blind religious ZEALOT. !

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      • #
        Bushkid

        The greens influence – as those who can and will direct voter preferences to whichever party will support their irrational “policies” – is far greater than the 10-12% of votes they get for themselves.

        In Queensland, the greens are the very strong influence behind the anti-agriculture and anti-fishing legislation that’s currently putting a stranglehold on those industries. Mining is also in their sights.

        The greens are not actually for the environment, but are very anti-human. And they mean all humans, including yourself, Peter Fitzroy.

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        • #
          AndyG55

          Labor are totally beholden to the Greens in their bid to win seats at elections, they ooze and slime together.

          Liberals have unfortunately also become heavily infected.

          There is very little rational conservative thought left in any parliament in Australia.

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      • #
        PeterW

        Greens are culpable because they trade their support in Parliament for Legislation that they want.
        They were in a de-facto Coalition with Labor, making support for Green policies a condition.

        That is how cross-bench Parties getthings done. Pretending otherwise is dishonest.

        Not only have they done this, but they have actively run candidates in local government elections, often with the same strategy of trading votes for support of their own policies.

        Again, pretending that this has not happened is dishonest.

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        • #
          Peter Fitzroy

          What – the greens, a political party, do politics!!!!!! – knock me down with a feather!

          Love a good conspiracy theory – but… This one has hairs on it. If the majors do deals with the greens it is because they see an advantage, which could be a wedge, or stealing support.

          Again stop blaming the greens, blame those whose cold dead hands are on the levers of power.

          As for defacto coalition which cabinet posts do the greens have?

          Face up to the facts, stop blaming boogie men

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          • #
            AndyG55

            The fact that you DENY that the green agenda has caused all this fuel load to build up, and is devastating the Australian way of life, says all that needed to be said about you.

            If you are so wilfully blind that you refuse to see the damage done by kowtowing to this base agenda, you really are past help as a human being.

            The FACTS are that the green agenda has dis-allowed the proper clearing of forests, and is the main cause for the severity of these fires.

            I suspect you are actually well aware of that and are just playing petty games.

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          • #
            Kalm Keith

            G R E E D.

            Green Repeated Extreme Environmental Disaster.

            20

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          Can I second that.

          KK

          20

      • #
        yarpos

        Yes the Federal govt directly contols State and Local Govt operational fire management and zoning issues. Of course how could we not see that. It tommorrows story from Adventureland?

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  • #
    Slithers

    Re-Post from Weekend Unthreaded.
    This is a Political Party message from the NMF party
    The No More Fires Party is appalled at the current spate of CAGW wild fires and sends its condolences to those who’s families lost lives and properties.
    We will immediately nationalize those areas devastated by fire and offer them under license to Investors in Wind and Solar energy.
    Those licenses will include a requirement that all vehicles used in the erecting process and ongoing maintenance be EV’s.
    There will be a requirement to provide EV charging places every 10km where public roads pass trough or alongside the new developments.
    Long term conversion of National and State, Parks and Forests to Wind Farms and Solar arrays will follow.
    This initiative will greatly assist in meeting our Paris accord targets well ahead of the 2030 deadline.
    It is possible to achieve net zero CO2 emissions and energy requirements allowing the closure of COAL fired electricity generation and shut down all those horrible COAL mines.
    In this way we will ensure that there never can be another years fire season like 2019 EVAH!
    Send donations or join us!
    Slithers aka PF.

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    • #
      WXcycles

      There will be a requirement to provide EV charging places every 10km where public roads pass trough or alongside the new development

      s.

      User pays.

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  • #
    TdeF

    It’s depressing

    “Deputy Nationals Leader Bridget McKenzie has accused the Greens of exploiting the misery of fire-affected communities for their political advantage

    Senator McKenzie told Question Time on Monday there was no denying climate change was causing heatwaves and intensifying fire conditions, but argued the Morrison government was the first to put any “real money on the table” to help prepare for the next drought.

    “We know that climate change is causing heatwaves, fire weather and drought to become more frequent and intense,” Senator McKenzie said. “That is why we have a raft of measures across government to actually deal with this.”

    What a load of bollocks. Even the farmers’ politicians have gone barmy.

    It’s a land of droughts and flooding plains. Australia is the only place to go endlessly from drought relief to flood relief because the Greens will not let anyone build dams.

    She said the most recent Agriculture Ministers’ Forum had developed a range of plans to tackle climate change.”

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    • #
      WXcycles

      … because the Greens will not let anyone build dams.

      It’s politicians more broadly doing that, not just the greens. It’s simply not a national or state priority, it costs a lot to do, so no one’s ever too disappointed if the damns never get built. Oh well, we fought the good fight, it just didn’t quite get across the line. Maybe next time. They do the same thing with roads, they promise a road or bridge for 3 to 4 election cycles, and do nothing whatsoever. Incremental BS steps every time, but never actually build anything. This time for sure! They do the same thing with funding “training placements” every single election cycle in living memory.

      The Libs and Nats both yap the same fluff about damns but they never argue too hard for it, they never make it the core election issue for the country, that never make it a central national or state budgeting issue. Same as for power supplies, it’s copious amounts of hat, and no cattle in sight. These things must always be deferred to “proper due-processes”, which is code for that’s not happening within the next 25 years. There are politician’s expenses, superannuation and retirement funds to sort out first. Got to get the proper priorities in place.

      In the end all Governments, first and foremost, work for the Government, and all that implies.

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      • #
        Kalm Keith

        Look at the dam that Hunter residents bought land ready for.

        A Libl government sold the land and took our money back to Sydney.

        Presumably it is now “lost” in consolidated revenue.

        None of our partis are Trustworthy.

        KK

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      • #
        Kalm Keith

        Everyone needs to read and understand this.

        Politicians have only one focus, and it’s not looking after us or the country.

        KK

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  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    So in summary the usual denials are presented as fact
    It’s normal
    It happened before
    It’s any other factor

    Yet when presented with facts;
    Straight to personal attacks,
    Or diversion like Anton’s

    These are the facts;
    Climate has changed
    We are responsible
    This is making things worse

    I just hope that none of you are affect tomorrow

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    • #
      Tel

      There’s a graph right at the top of page showing that it has happened before.

      Why do you deny this simple fact?

      There’s actual data, not adjustments, from the people who were there at the time.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      “It’s normal.. yes it is within normal Australia climate variability
      It happened before… most certainly has
      It’s any other factor.. Not our fault if you don’t have the intelligence to see the causes of the drought and this WEATHER.

      And you have ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF any of these FACTS are incorrect

      You have NOT presented any evidence to counter them.

      You NEVER do.

      “These are the facts;
      Climate has changed
      We are responsible
      This is making things worse

      No, that is load of scientifically unsupportable twaddle.

      Again

      where is your EMPIRICAL SCIENTIFIC PROOF.

      You have NONE, and you know that

      Its all just an ANTI-SCIENCE FANTASY .

      71

    • #
      AndyG55

      /PF = a parrot, stuck in regurgitation mode. !!

      No evidence

      No facts

      Just empty squawking.

      41

    • #
      AndyG55

      “Climate has changed”

      Come on cowardly git, answer this question.

      In what way has the global climate changed in the last 40 years, that can be SCIENTIFICALLY linked to human CO2?

      You have been running and hiding from answering that question for a long, long time.

      … and remember, models ARE NOT evidence.

      51

    • #
      william x

      Hi Peter fitz! I am new to this site and I have wondered why you haven’t bothered to answer my questions from my post above. Maybe my questions were too vague for you Fitz. I apologize. Ok I will try again. I will only ask you one. What would the temperature reduction be in the climate in 10 years time if every Australian stopped emitting CO2 today?

      20

    • #
      yarpos

      being normal and happening before are facts

      00

  • #
    PeterS

    If the fires become as serious as they say it will be this summer we should expect serious power outages. Surely the anger will be lifted to new levels on both sides of the climate change “debate”.

    40

    • #
      TdeF

      There is no debate! Bush fires are not climate. That’s absurd. They are a perfectly natural part of the country like droughts and flooding rains. If we choose to do nothing about any of them, we pay the price.

      Worse, if we put them out, it is just worse next time around. Regular backburning is essential and nothing short of clearing around housing can stop loss of life, but people insist on living in the bush, surrounded by trees. In just about every photograph of burned buildings, you can see dead black stumps all around the property. Gum trees and pine trees reproduce by fire. They need it. The pine cones open under intense heat.

      I had a friend in the CFA. He advised people on safety. In one place they had built their new home literally around a giant gum tree. It was in the living room. There was nothing he could say but run when the fire comes.

      In California, they evacuate everyone. Their loss of life is a tenth of ours. A few years ago both countries lost 2,000 houses.
      We lost 200 lives as well. They lost 20. Bravery and water cannot stop 900C at 80km/hr.

      40

    • #
      Environment Skeptic

      I want to talk about about plant burgers….

      20

  • #
    beowulf

    Fitzy was right. You were all wrong. Now Greta the international bushfire expert has spoken.

    “If anyone tells you ‘This is part of a normal cycle’ or ‘We’ve had fires like this before’, smile politely and walk away because they don’t know what they are talking about.”

    See also the attached Royal Commission findings into the 1939 Black Friday fires. If Greta learns to read and write she will also be able to avail herself of the facts.

    https://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2019/11/dear-greta-the-climate-child-please-read-this-1939-royal-commission-report-into-the-real-cause-of-ca.html

    Bolt had a guest tonight who is an actual pre-eminent authority on bushfires (since 1962). He puts the intensity of the current fires down to 3 things: fuel, fuel and more fuel.

    40

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      That 1939 report is damning of our current politicians and to make everyone aware of what politics has become in Australia we only need to look back to the last Victorian disaster which has been totally ignored.

      “No lessons there, let’s move on to save the planet.”

      They’ve done us Wrong.

      KK

      20

  • #
    Turtle of WA

    Tonight’s Q&A on ABC: an advertisement for Ross Garnaut’s renewables company and his new book.

    They started with bushfires, conflated that with climate change, and then forgot all about the fires for the rest of the show.

    Someone needs to do a takedown of the hideous lies he was pushing in the name of hoovering up other peoples money through shameless rent-seeking.

    60

  • #

    Notice that every single Warmist assumes that ‘more bushfires’ can only be due to warming climate. When in fact it’s the opposite.

    Colder oceans result in less evaporation from the sea surface, hence less water vapor available for rain on land. In Europe in the middle ages Maunder Minimum and Little Ice Age, the colder periods came with terrible droughts. So bad that mass starvation due to drought-induced crop failures was common. Google ‘the hunger stones’ – many of Europe’s great rivers have carved messages in rocks normally below the water line. Things like “If you see these words, weep.”

    The hunger stones were markers of mass starvation due to drought. And the hunger stones are becoming exposed again recently, as rainfall decreases due to cooling oceans, as the new Solar Minimum starts to bite.

    In Australia, dramatically reduced rainfall over the multiple decades of a Solar Minimum is going to really hurt. Large regions may become desert. Especially if insane Globalist puppets take opportunity to set fires to ‘prove their point’, as they do.

    Btw, plants require much less water to survive, when atmospheric CO2 levels are way higher. Plants evolved to work best at 2000ppm to 4000ppm, which was the typical CO2 level through most of the history of life on Earth (and there was no runaway greenhouse effect.)

    So, the best way to save Australia from becoming mostly desert during the oncoming Solar Minimum, is to burn as much coal as possible, trying to get the CO2 levels up to something better for plants. Unlike the 400ppm today, which is one of the lowest levels ever in the history of Earth.

    60

  • #
    pat

    Sky “Front Page” just showed Australian newspaper with “Greens Play with Fire” headline. said it was Graham Lloyd article – don’t know if it was today’s paper, but there’s this:

    Greens pour fuel on fire to score political points Editorial
    The Australian – 1 hour ago
    On Tuesday Graham Lloyd wrote about the build-up of fuel loads across a decade in northern NSW where Nimbin environmentalist Michael Balderstone told …

    from what was said on Sky, Balderstone blamed the Greens for not allowing back-burning or whatever. maybe someone can find Lloyd’s article and excerpt.

    50

  • #
    Slithers

    Emergency, Emergency! These people must be silenced!
    https://principia-scientific.org/are-you-ready-for-a-catastrophically-cold-winter/

    All this theorizing about Maunder minimums and possible Ice Ages is contrary to our message.

    30

  • #
    JCalvertN(UK)

    When my parents were seeking a retirement house, they set themselves a number of rules before they even embarked on the endeavour.
    Rule number one for them was that their house had to be located well away from the bush.
    The property catalogues were full of reasonably priced beautiful houses in “lovely bushland setting” – which were very tempting.
    But they had set themselves this rule and they kept to it. And I’m glad they did.
    I think more people should apply it.

    10

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