JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Big-government takes another hit: Brexit factor strikes Italy

More news that the little people are fed up. A big 70% of Italy’s voters turned out to turn down the referendum. The Italian PM will resign. Like Brexit and Trump, the opinion polls got it wrong underestimated the size of the “No” vote, predicting the No win with a 6% gap, which ended up being a 19% for Italians in Italy. (Italians living overseas voted very differently — 65%  for Yes). The proposal was to reduce the power of the Senate and of the regional governments. The Euro has dipped.

The global anti-establishment backlash has claimed another scalp in a result that will send shockwaves through financial markets and European capitals today.

Opposition was spearheaded by Beppe Grillo, a comedian and Eurosceptic founder of the populist Five Star Movement. He accused Mr Renzi of trying to wreck Italy’s system of checks and balances to push through laws favouring big business.

Renzi was elected as an anti-establishment man, but clearly wasn’t that at all:

Renzi, 41, took office in 2014 promising to shake up hidebound Italy and presenting himself as an anti-establishment “demolition man” determined to crash through a smothering bureaucracy and redraw the nation’s creaking institutions.

The referendum, designed to hasten the legislative process by reducing the powers of the upper house Senate and regional authorities, was to have been his crowning achievement.

Chris Kenny calls the current political climate correctly when he points out that Brexit and Trump show that Tony Abbott would have won here in Australia if he had been PM running against Shorten in July.

Donald Trump’s election triumph buttresses the argument that Tony Abbott’s overthrow was unnecessary — that he would have won this year’s election. It gives weight to the claim his poor midterm polling was meaningless and that his known strengths were electorally compelling.

Those of us who have long made this case believed that, for all his faults, Abbott’s strong positions on border protection, national security, climate caution, union corruption and budget discipline would contrast sharply with Labor. The political/media class, however, declared Abbott an embarrassment and barracked for a coup.

“Populist” is what we call it when the people vote the wrong way:

After the Brexit vote and Donald Trump’s victory in the US presidential election, the No vote is likely to be interpreted as another victory for populist forces and a potential stepping stone to government for Grillo’s Five Star.

But the campaign was not just about popular discontent with the state of Italy. Many Italians of a similar political bent to Renzi had deep reservations about the proposed changes to the constitution.

Though the election yesterday in Austria went the other way with the Greens leader clearly beating the right-wing Freedom party leader who had nearly won the election in May. The President of Austria is a largely ceremonial role.

h/t ROM

 

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Big-government takes another hit: Brexit factor strikes Italy, 9.3 out of 10 based on 79 ratings

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127 comments to Big-government takes another hit: Brexit factor strikes Italy

  • #
    Tim Hammond

    Not sure you are calling this right. Renzi wanted to make government smaller, saving €500m a year. 600 or so politicians would go, and decisions would be made more quickly. Renzi would then have enacted some properly Liberal economic reforms. The populists instead just decided to create even more difficulties for Italy by voting No and forcing Renzi to resign. There still won’t be an election, so now Italy just gets chaos and no reform. Dumb really, and self-serving.

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    • #
      tom0mason

      I think Jo has it correct.
      Renzi blew-in on a cloud of promises. Promises to scrap what was holding Italy back — Mr Renzi fell short on his scrapping promises.

      Jobs Act — A public failure. Mr Renzi’s flagship initiative to generate jobs failed badly.

      Education reforms — ‘Good School’ reform which was seen to be no where near as good as advertised.

      Banking reforms — Failed to implement the much mooted ‘Bad Bank’ initiative to corral bad debt and loans out of the banking system. His dithering resulted in bad debt getting steadily worse.

      Debt — Italy’s national debt still grew under Mr Renzi’s tenure.

      Corruption — Easily seen as the biggest failure, his crack down on corruption has had little effect. In some quarters is was perceived to make things worse.

      Mr Renzi’s compromised in Italy’s constitution and reforming Italy’s establishment were widely viewed as half-hearted.
      Overall Mr Renzi’s tepid track record on the reform front and ambiguity on the ‘scrapping’ front, the proposed reforms to Italy’s constitution were rather opaque and widely perceived as being a danger to democracy. Some regarded them as being a potential gift to the corrupt.

      Some commentators believe a financial crisis is inevitable –

      …Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi’s referendum on constitutional reforms will be defeated by about 20 percentage points when all the votes have been counted, and Renzi has already announced that he plans to resign as a result. When new elections are held it looks like comedian Beppe Grillo’s Five-Star movement will come to power, and the European establishment is extremely alarmed at that prospect because Grillo wants to take Italy out of the eurozone.
      In the long run Italy would be much better off without the euro, but in the short-term the only thing propping up Italy’s failing banking system is support from Europe.
      Without that support, the 8th largest economy on the entire planet would already be in the midst of an unprecedented financial crisis.

      I know that I said a lot in that first paragraph, but it is imperative that people understand how serious this crisis could quickly become.

      This “no” vote virtually guarantees a major banking crisis for Italy, and many analysts fear that it could trigger a broader financial crisis all across the rest of the continent as well.

      http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/global-financial-markets-plunged-into-chaos-as-italy-overwhelmingly-votes-no
      and
      http://endtimeheadlines.org/2016/12/euro-plummets-after-italy-votes-no-on-reform/
      and
      http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-04/renzi-loses-italy-referendum-wide-margin-euro-slides

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    • #
      Eric Simpson

      Italy realized that it’s their last chance to save their culture. Is it about the profits of bankers, or about stopping the rapid Muslimification of their country?

      150

      • #
        Dennis

        Maybe Romans at least want a return to sanity before their city buildings collapse under the weight of illegal structures built on top?

        40

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        I think the feeling is world wide – people are sick of being slapped silly then being told its good for them while corporations empty our pockets and the govt holds us still for them to do so…..

        As such, its as much as slap in the face for big govt ( I hope the govt people who monitor these sites might let this sink in…) as it is for the faceless corporations that act as their pimps.

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    • #
      Mike

      Keep everyone’s cat as confused as is possibly possible and lastly, i would like to draw attention to the fact that people are not wearing enough hats!!
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2QJvc_SxFQ

      40

    • #

      not only that, the opinion polls consistently predicted a win to NO.

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      • #

        You are right. Corrected — they underestimated the size of the No vote:
        The final polls had the gap at 5 – 6%, but for Italians living in Italy the gap ended up being 19%:

        The margin of the rejection– close to 20 percentage points – was much wider than expected. On a high turnout of 65.47%, 59.11% of voters chose no; 40.89% went for yes. Overseas voters bucked the trend, voting overwhelmingly (64.7%) for yes. — Guardian

        Thank you.

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        • #

          No worries.

          The final No vote was more than what the polls predicted I think.

          Not having any knowledge of Italian politics or constitutional law I’ll just relate the comments that I like the sound of viz a viz that, like Cameron, Renzi thought his popularity would enable him to win the vote and failed to consider that the substance of the argument might be what people voted for.

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  • #
    the sting

    Does wanting a big decrease in the budget deficit, wanting to freeze the size of our public service,wanting to sell the ABC,wanting to stop all subsidies on renewable energy,wanting to abolish section 18c and wanting the rule of law to apply to unions as it does to everyone else make me a populist?

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    • #
      ianl8888

      Probably, but if you think these things will be done, that makes you an escaped funny farm inmate.

      Without the flippancy, I’m appalled by the absolute lack of ability in all three levels of Aus government. Normally, one could find a bright spot somewhere within this firmament but after an enormous exploratory struggle I’m still empty-handed.

      Yes, there are “bright” spots – Brexit, Waffle’s wobbly one-seat Nat majority, splinters of a Senate (to block Waffle’s rushes of blood to the head), Trump (vulgar, but I’m convinced now that a big, vulgar, noisy Mack truck right through the middle of Leftoid County may just disrupt lefty business as usual). One can see, however, that the self-described elite are very busy trying to overturn or nullify these things. In the way of public affairs, they will have some success.

      So the question: are these events signs of a real grass roots revolt, or just spot fires that the self-described “elite” will eventually manage to quench ? If it becomes very tight for them, cancelling or postponing elections on “emergency” grounds will be a goer.

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      • #
        rapscallion

        “So the question: are these events signs of a real grass roots revolt, or just spot fires that the self-described “elite” will eventually manage to quench ? If it becomes very tight for them, cancelling or postponing elections on “emergency” grounds will be a goer.”

        I don’t think you can call them spot fires when they happened in Britain AND the US within 5 months of each other. Cancelling or postponing elections is not an option as it will cause even greater uproar, dissent and probably civil disorder. Italy’s problems are in some ways unique. Their problems are to a degree largely self inflicted but also a consequence of ECB fiscal policies. One size clearly does not fit all. Also bear in mind that there are calls in Italy for the Navy to start sinking boats coming from Libya. Immigration is the crucial factor here, and one forced onto peoples without their consent. It was uncontrolled immigration from the EU that won it for Brexit (amongst other things), it was “undocumented aliens” that was part of Trumps’ victory, and it may well be the large influx of economic migrants in France along with their large Muslim population that will win it for Le Pen. If that happens the EU will collapse in short order. It can only just survive Brexit, but not Frexit. In March 2017 we have elections in Holland, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised in Geert Wilders does well or wins.

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    • #
      Fang

      If that is what you propose for the next election! It be a “hell yer” from me for a populist proposal! :)

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    • #

      the sting December 5, 2016 at 7:15 pm

      “Does wanting a big decrease in the budget deficit, wanting to freeze the size of our public service,wanting to sell the ABC,wanting to stop all subsidies on renewable energy,wanting to abolish section 18c and wanting the rule of law to apply to unions as it does to everyone else make me a populist?”

      No! such may admit altruism! The results of such are often dire! :-)

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  • #
    marcjf

    I had lunch in London just after Brexit and got talking to an Italian waiter in his 20′s. He was animated in his hatred for the Italian political system and wanted to return to Italy – but no jobs. Three un-elected PMs. This was – perhaps like brexit – a vote against the establishment. this keeps up, they’ll have to abolish it….

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    • #
      Oliver K. Manuel

      The dip in the EU, UK, UN and UNAS (United Nationsl Academies of Sciences) are all fallout from the Climategate emails that surfaced in late NOV 2009.

      People do not like tyrannical, one-world governments that lie to the public.

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      • #
        Oliver K. Manuel

        After Einstein reported in 1905 that mass (m) is stored energy (E), E = mc^2, it became impossible to hide “nuclear secrets” that are indelibly recorded in exact rest masses of the ~3,000 types of atoms that compromise all matter!

        Therefore, frightened world leaders and guilt-ridden scientists agreed to unite nations and national academies of sciences on 24 OCT 1945 and use Weizsacker’s sloping baseline to calculate false values of “nuclear binding energy” that would hid neutron repulsion, the source of energy in cores of all heavy atoms, ordinary stars, galaxies and the expanding universe.

        On 13 June 1936, a 19-year old student at the Inperial University of Tokyo noticed this “sleight of hand,” and tried to awaken the public to the error in nuclear physics before dying in 2001.

        Thanks to Climategate emails, the public may be aware that the Sun’s pulsar core controls Earth’s climate and human destiny before Paul Kazuo Kuroda’s 100th Birthday in four months, April 2017.

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    • #
      PhilJourdan

      If they abolish the establishment, then those against the establishment will be the establishment. Nature abhors a vacuum.

      50

      • #
        Mike

        The problem as i see it is that revolutions of any kind that i have seen seem to always lead to conditions that are worse than before.

        50

        • #

          I see this more a case of the Allies defeating Germany once again.

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        • #
          Owen Morgan

          Oh, come on! Are the Baltic States, Poland, Slovakia, the Czech Repubic, Hungary and East Germany really worse off than they were as parts of Russia’s empire? Angela Merkel doesn’t appear to care if she makes them that way, but that’s not the same thing.

          The problem with the word “revolution” is that it is tainted, for a lot of English-speakers, outside the United States, with 1789, the guillotine (a Scottish invention, as it happens) and the Terror, which was by no means unsuitably named. Revolutions, however, don’t have to be bad.

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        • #
          Sceptical Sam

          Tell that to the people of France who lived under the Ancien Régime.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancien_R%C3%A9gime

          20

        • #
          clive

          Well,the USA had a revolution and they came out OK.Sometimes you have to break a few eggs,when making an omelette.

          10

        • #
          PhilJourdan

          Most Americans would disagree with that assessment.

          00

      • #
        Mark D.

        Nature may abhor a vacuum but politicians rapidly prosper in one.

        50

  • #
    tom0mason

    Mr Renzi’s tied his future to the outcome of the vote, after promising so much and failing to deliver, he finally succeeded with his last promise.

    71

  • #
    KinkyKeith

    I sort of followed the Trump victory but have no real idea about Italy.

    Seems as though the Italians have adopted the only relevant guideline: “when in doubt, chuck em out”.

    KK

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    • #
      tom0mason

      KinkyKeith,

      The wiki on the Prime Ministers of Italy will give you some idea of how the Italian have bounce from right-wing to ultra right wing and very-very-left wing, centrist populist, and round again. They’ve had lots of Prime Ministers! The Italians like there leader but not for long, except for Silvio Berlusconi who managed to get in 4 times. That should tell you a lot about Italian politics.

      For a quick potted explanation of Italian government and why they tend to get coalition government –
      http://www.understandingitaly.com/profile-content/government.html

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  • #
    bobl

    I think Turnbull’s turn toward a new Carbon Tax, hated by the electorate will probably catalyze another revolt. Remembering Abbott deposed Turnbull over his support for Rudd’s job killing, granny killing, energy poverty creation scheme.

    How ironic would it be for Turncoat to be deposed TWICE on the same issue, clearly he doesn’t learn from experience.

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  • #
    TdeF

    “For all his faults?”

    Endless replays of Abbott pausing, biting an onion, mysogynist for looking at his watch, a prepared speech defending Peter Slipper’s antics outside the parliament. All anti Abbott media. Endless.

    What faults? If Abbott had a fault, it was trying to keep his enemies close, the ABC and Turnbull and Bishop in particular. Turnbull and Bishop made no such mistake and Abbott is on the back bench. Hundreds of millions to the Clintons and Climate Change and the Paris accord.

    Malcolm had a deal with the Greens. It fell through. There is no attempt to repeal the RET, the Large Scale Certificates which kill coal power stations and fund windmills directly. There is no attempt to stop the ETS. In fact there is the hurried signing of the Paris accord. Now Turnbull has dumped Abbott’s green initiative which provide employment and replaced this policy with textbook Green policy. What sort of Liberal government take direction in policy from the Greens?

    No, Abbott was a great PM with a hostile senate. Malcolm could not hold onto Abbott’s landslide victory and without Victoria’s Daniel Andrews, Bill Shorten would be PM now. Abbott would have romped home, as the Canning by election showed. Bishop and Turnbull and Morrison had to move quickly, even as Ministers.

    We need Abbott back. He needs to take charge of what’s left of the Liberal party, perhaps the Queensland Liberala and the Nationals. Even Liberal NSW is pro shark, anti country and anti gas and anti sport. The real problem is the left of the Sydney Liberals, led by Mr Zimmerman who has Hockey’s old seat. NSW Liberals are now in Mardi Gras mode, celebrating. So are the CFMEU and Lend Lease. There is no conservative government in Australia, except perhaps in WA.

    It is time for the Nationals to dump Turnbull. What is Joyce thinking? Why is he backing someone in Turnbull who despises the Nationals?

    As for Italy, I am not sure the interpretation is right. Renzi wanted more power. Referenda like this usually fail. BREXIT was a call for less power for the bureaucrats not more. To vote Trump was to break the bureaucrats hold on Government. 98.3% of Washington DC voted Clinton, so it was clear who wanted her and who didn’t.

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    • #
      TdeF

      As Andrew Bolt just notes, Malcolm has said he will have an ETS. Joyce says not carbon tax and then contradicts himself. It is all about punishing our coal producers and Joyce and Turbull are on the same page. 100% TurnBull.

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      • #
        TdeF

        It’s no wonder country people are deserting Joyce’s National party. They are to the left of Malcolm’s Liberals.

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      • #

        I nearly fell over when I heard about the rebirth of the carbon tax under a different (and bizarre) name. But I guess our faux-con leadership is dodgy enough to try it on.

        On whose behalf?

        NSW Libs (especially) are largely of the posh/green/globalist left, but are even worse for being under the control of lobbyists. Right now, Big Green is an immensely powerful lobby-network, with institutions like Goldman Sachs squarely behind it, as well as all the world’s major pressure groups.

        The European Union may be run by drunks and mediocrities, but the lobbies which own it are very eager and alert. No matter how gross the EU’s failures and how obvious its use of mega-debt to fuel illusory success, corporate media will plug the Euro-monster the way it was willing to plug Hillary even to the brink of nuclear war. These people are that determined. Europe, NAFTA etc should be a warning to us that globalism has nothing to do with free trade and everything to do with restrictive empires run by unelected technocrats for the sake of lobbies.

        It is urgent that individual countries use their ballot boxes while they can. Where there is no election possible, use constant pressure on parties to sweep away the likes of Turnbull. (Don’t forget Bishop as you sweep.)

        They might say we’re only annoyance value, we deplorables, and they might be right. So let’s annoy.

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        • #
          Yonniestone

          I nearly fell over seeing a story titled Bernardi says climate review ‘dumbest thing’ on Sky News!

          It even comes across half objective in conveying reality!

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          • #
            TdeF

            The new vogue from Turnbull is to totally avoid using phrases like ‘carbon tax’ and ‘ETS’.

            We are being conned, even in the law. It is all semantics, our international ‘obligations’ under the agreements.

            The appalling RET is a massive carbon tax with soft wording like ‘can create’ when it is obligatory. In fact the Act does not use the word CARBON even once!

            “One LGC can be created for each megawatt-hour of eligible renewable electricity produced by an accredited renewable power station. LGCs can be sold to entities (mainly electricity retailers) who surrender them annually”

            This is just deceit, in legislation.

            So not a massive CARBON tax, but an obligation for non eligible energy providers to buy Large Scale Certificates for electrical power. Under this act the government does not even have to budget or borrow for the windmills. The people of Australia have to pay for them at 9c a KWhr on top of your electricity bill and your payments go directly to ‘eligible’ producers of power, even if they produce nothing. The Act also makes the point that they receive this money in addition to any payment for power itself, so they are paid twice. No wonder Hazelwood is closing.

            So we have a huge carbon tax already, but Graham Lloyd in the Australian is silent, reporting conflict between Pyne and Frydenberg.

            In the Act the following energy sources are eligible renewable energy sources:
            hydro;wave;tide;ocean;wind;solar;geothermal‑aquifer;hot dry rock;energy crops;wood waste; etc.

            Of course not in there are coal, oil, petrol, diesel, wood, briquettes,.. Note, not even Natural Gas!

            Who is paying for all these mad windmills? Who is forcing Hazelwood, Pt Henry, Port Adelaide, Whyalla, Pt Pirie, Portland to close? You are. Your politicians are saying nothing on either side, pretending they are against a ‘carbon tax’ and buying worthless ‘credits’ from shonky bankers and third world despots. Thanks, Malcolm.

            Still, at least it is Not a massive CARBON tax.

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            • #
              David Maddison

              Brilliant, TdeF!

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            • #
              TdeF

              This started with a few puzzles to which I did not have the answers from the media?

              Q1. Who is paying for SA windmills? (They are not in the SA government budget, so not SA)
              Q2. Why would the lowest cost producer in Victoria be forced to close (and of course electricity prices go up)? After all, why don’t they just charge more in the first place?
              Q3. Under the constitution, minerals are sold by the State Government, not the Federal. So who collects the money for the coal? Daniel Andrews just increased the price of Victoria coal by a massive 300%, but this also is not a dreaded ‘Carbon Tax’.

              So no ‘carbon tax’ but coal and even gas retailer are being forced to pay windmill producers most of your money and their income. Of course all coal mines will have to close. The Green idea that NSW will start digging blacker and 6% ‘cleaner’ coal is science and economic nonsense in the face of the RET. It is obviously wrong. We will just run out, but we will have saved China.

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              • #
                TdeF

                I think it also goes part way to explaining why windmills in SA are generally not even turning. As Jo and Tony pointed out, running at 6% not 12% and in the big disaster, half are not even turned on. The fact is the money rolls in anyway from coal and gas sales, so there is no financial incentive to chase every breath of wind. So you have the nameplate capacity, the real output and the could not be bothered output. Communist windmills. Paid to do nothing.

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              • #
                Analitik

                there is no financial incentive to chase every breath of wind

                Sorry, can you please explain this?

                As you stated previously, “One LGC can be created for each megawatt-hour of eligible renewable electricity produced by an accredited renewable power station”

                If they don’t produce power, the wind and solar farms don’t get to sell the LGCs. From what I read, it is in the renewables’ interests to pump out as much power as possible, whenever possible, to maximise the LGCs that the thermal generation companies are then forced to buy (adding to the power prices as you have also stated).

                Rather than a tax, it’s a form of wealth transfer from the consumers to the renewables companies.

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              • #
                TdeF

                “Sorry, can you please explain this?”

                Sure. I could be wrong but they have to produce power, but who said they had to sell it to anyone? That is not in the Act. Even the coal people have this problem, which is why we have aluminium smelting at night.

                Producing power when you want to, when the wind blows, when no one wants it is a licence to print money for random power which is called renewables. The wind can howl at 3am and not a breath on a hot summer’s day in Adelaide. You get paid at 3am. Nice too if you can sell it as well, but that is hard to do, hard to organize. It is so inconvenient and hardly worth the effort. If the wind blows too hard, why risk it? Turn them off. It if it too light and the state is buying coal anyway, turn them off.

                No, it is a fantasy of the Left subsidized by a massive impost on electricity retailers and you get real cash at 9c/kwhr, a rate you could not sell unless someone is desperate and you happen to be connected to the grid.

                I should think you are right though. It is not the intention of the act, but it does explain why so few of the windmills are ever turned on at any time.

                70

              • #
                TdeF

                I suppose the Act should say the electricity has to be sold to qualify, but it doesn’t. If this was a real commercial operation, the windmills would be working hard at every opportunity to get money because of the sheer cost of building them, but it was our money. Who cares about our money? You do not even have to compete as people are forced to buy your LGCs. So you are getting a handsome return on windmills paid for by the public. Where is the incentive to actually perform or even scrounge every kw? There is none. Worse, it is one of those fake free Trading ‘markets’ where the fewer LGCs there are, the more people have to pay for them! A winner.

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              • #
                Analitik

                You can’t just produce power and send it nowhere – not without a MASSIVE resistor bank when you are talking utility levels.

                But you have neglected that renewables get legislated priority access to the markets so they always have guaranteed buyers. The LGCs then protect them from negative pricing ensuring they make money no matter what state the market pricing has been driven into (ie underground).

                The RET in combination with priority access is truly the most destructive instrument ever unleashed on the electricity markets. EVAH

                90

            • #
              Rod Stuart

              Yes, absolutely brilliant.
              Is there a solution? Is it possible for a charismatic leader to appear capable of uniting One Nation, ALA, Australian Conservatives, and possible Liberal Democrats?
              An impossible task!
              Perhaps, if enough people understand that the major parties come from the same box of poison, that a coalition of those four could form a government?
              But then of course, there is a senate full of green xylophones, Hinch, and assorted riff raff.

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        • #
          ianl8888

          … globalism has nothing to do with free trade

          Well, certainly not now.

          One of the aspects of the self-identified “elites” is their grubby, sl!my technique of commandeering a concept obviously initially favoured by a majority of the populace and slowly turning it into a weapon for control – on the assumption that the hoi-polloi won’t notice for a very long time.

          “Globalisation” is an example. It used to mean open-enough trade and employment across otherwise secure borders … and we quite liked that idea. Now it means political control by unaccountable bureaucrats, sparsely interrupted by meaningless soporific elections, with regimes of unassailable diktats and kleptocrats industriously digging away at normal people’s savings… and we don’t like that idea at all.

          This technique of language control (eg. the prostitution of the word “globalisation”) is insidious and very strongly bolstered by the MSM. “Fossil fuels” is another (deliberately coined to throw disdain on coal, oil, gas). “Price on carbon” is another, utterly meaningless but emotively evocative to a scientifically illiterate populace which much prefers feeling to thinking.

          Do not misunderstand, or forgive. This technique is both very deliberate and deadly. 1984 is a manual.

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          • #
            ianl8888

            Your comment is awaiting moderation

            Complete rubbish. I give up.

            [Sorry about the delay. Us volunteer mods, were busy elsewhere. My apologies] Fly

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          • #
            Dennis

            The TPP is of course additional to Free Trade Agreements between countries already signed. And the TPP was tabled in our federal Parliament during November last for review by members before a vote is taken regarding signing. So much for the doom and gloom lobby hysterics about the secrecy, and ignoring that secrecy during important negotiations is normal procedure.

            20

      • #
        Robber

        No Carbon Tax!! Stop escalating energy costs now. Australia is rushing towards a job exodus as any company that can move overseas will. Meanwhile Trump will bring jobs back to the US.
        What is it with Aussie Pollies? Turnbull is a terrible twisted traitor. Dandrews is a despicable dodgy disaster.

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  • #

    The problem is that Italy has just an electoral system which is not working now for many years, steadily blocking any govenmental work. So they decided to continue that situation. The political five star group asking for new elections, but have no clear plan. To be against something may not help Italy.

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    • #
      el gordo

      In the USA they had a similar problem, but now the whole box and dice is in the hands of the Republicans. Italy has to do the same in a new election.

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    • #
      tom0mason

      Johannes S. Herbst,

      Yep, the Italian constitutional system tend to lead to coalitions, most have been unstable. There is very must a North-South divide as well as communist and neo-Nazı parties.
      Silvio Berlusconi has served the most time at the to having been voted in 4 times!

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  • #
    pat

    5 Dec: The Economist: No, grazie: Italian voters have rejected Matteo Renzi’s constitutional reforms
    After losing by 20 points, the prime minister will resign
    IT WAS, said a hoarse, red-eyed Matteo Renzi, an “extraordinarily clear” result. His plan to reform Italy’s constitution was not rejected on December 4th by a margin of five or even ten percentage points, as the polls had suggested: the gap between No and Yes was a mortifying 20 points in Italy proper.
    Official figures showed the rejectionist front winning by 60% to 40% in metropolitan Italy (and by 59% to 41% counting ballots cast by Italians abroad). And that was with a high turnout, which Mr Renzi’s advisers had believed would favour his cause…
    Anti-EU populists spearheaded the No campaign, though they were joined by establishment figures such as Mario Monti, a former prime minister, worried about the accretion of executive power sought by Mr Renzi through the combination of the constitutional reform (which would have emasculated the powerful Senate) with a lop-sided electoral law (which engineers a guaranteed majority for the largest party, even one with a small plurality, in the Chamber of Deputies, the lower house).
    Much of what was written before the referendum has been rendered irrelevant by the size of Mr Renzi’s defeat…
    Instead, Mr Mattarella is expected to speak with representatives of Italy’s political parties to float the idea of a caretaker government. This might be headed either by a member of the outgoing cabinet, such as the finance minister, Pier Carlo Padoan, or the arts and heritage minister, Dario Franceschini, or some widely respected institutional figure…
    ***But nowadays, terms such as “widely respected” and “institutional” have a different ring than they did before the Brexit vote and Donald Trump’s victory in America.
    “Democracy has won,” declared Beppe Grillo, the comedian who leads Italy’s second-biggest party, the maverick Five Star Movement (M5S). He called for an immediate general election under the current rules, which are likely greatly to benefit his party. Matteo Salvini, the leader of the right-wing populist Northern League, did the same. They have a persuasive case…
    http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21711216-after-losing-20-points-prime-minister-will-resign-italian-voters-have-rejected-matteo

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  • #
    Mark

    ‘the little people’
    I am not Irish so I don’t have a clue about what the little people are doing these days. Nevertheless, I am aware of the attitudes of my fellow voters.

    50

  • #
    John Smith

    “populism”
    It’s just a phase we’re going through.
    Teenage rebellion.
    We’ll calm down eventually and understand that our Globalist/EU mommies and daddies know best.

    101

  • #
    Yonniestone

    From a laymans view it seems since WW2 the majority of European countries retained some socialist/communist political elements while trying to enjoy the trappings of capitalism that was headed by the USA, that in recent times has shown even they are not immune form the cancer of the left.

    71

  • #
    Ruairi

    Like dominoes, voters may heave,
    Their leaders by wanting to leave,
    The elite E.U. club,
    With each plebiscite snub,
    To a creed they no longer believe.

    120

  • #
    • #
      TdeF

      More semantics. It is not what it is, it is what you call it.

      81

    • #
      Raven

      From David Maddison’s The Australian (cached) link:

      Disunity has broken out within the Coalition over a government review of climate change policies, with senior frontbencher Christopher Pyne flatly rejecting any carbon pricing for the energy ­sector.
      […]
      This followed South Australian Labor Premier Jay Weatherill — who clashed with Malcolm Turnbull over energy policies after two major blackouts in his state — welcoming federal Energy Minister Josh Frydenberg’s indication the Turnbull government might consider a national emissions intensity scheme, a type of carbon pricing for trading credits among energy companies.

      But Mr Pyne, the Minister for Defence Industry and a South Australian moderate, yesterday said the government would not support any form of carbon tax.

      Asked whether a price on carbon in the energy sector might help improve the stability and ­affordability of power supplies, Mr Pyne said, “no”.

      “The last carbon tax was a $15.4 billion hit on the Australian economy,” he said. “As soon as that was removed, of course, energy prices dropped quite dramatically. So we have absolutely no intention of returning to a carbon tax. We will meet and surpass our 2020 emissions targets with the policies we have in place. We have an ambitious target for 2030 of 26 to 28 per cent reductions … we are doing all the things that you would want to do to protect our ­environment.”

      Mr Pyne was backed by South Australian Liberal senator Cory Bernardi, who last night told The Australian that opening up a review that looked at an emissions intensity scheme for electricity generators was “one of the dumbest things I have ever heard”.

      “Why on earth would you reopen a cauterised wound that had healed?” Senator Bernardi said. “It will not lower prices and is not in the national interest.”


      It’s high time we saw some disunity in the ranks.

      40

  • #
    David Maddison

    O/T

    I’m upset.

    I and most JoNovans (except Red Thumb) were and are elated by the Trumpastic win for sanity in the US but even so, the wave of sanity has not yet reached Australia’s shores.

    We are not only continuing but increasing the Green Madness! All under the watch of a supposedly conservative Federal Government (not that anyone believes it is).

    142

    • #
      TdeF

      Plus the incredible spectacle of our PM racing over to have a last minute and utterly useless selfie with Obama. It told the world whose side he is on. Of our pollies, only Abbott toasted the victory.

      So why did our Prime Minister make such an effort to tell the incoming US President clearly that he is Obama’s friend? How does our country benefit from this outrageous show of toadying to an ex US President? Why did he do it and why at the last minute? All the real PMs are talking to Trump and making their peace. Not Green Malcolm. He thumbed his nose at Trump, on our behalf.

      181

      • #
        David Maddison

        Australia is traditionally one of the US’ closest and most trustworthy allies and yet Turnbull’s deliberate display of affection for Obama has seriously damaged that relationship with regard to Trump.

        I hope Trump realises that Turnbull does not represent Australians and true Australians remain among America’s closest friends.

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      • #
        Manfred

        He appears to gave selectively forgotten he is your servant, your representative and the one with your mandate. Absolute delusion corrupts absolutely. I observe the ramping up the Great Australian Green Energy Boondoggle on the premise that it is ‘socially acceptable‘. In the absence of reliability and economic reality I suppose this is all that one can say. At least they’ve given up ‘saving the planet’ since the Australian conribution to its demise is essentially not measurable, though I guess the implication still remains.

        ‘Social acceptability’ will vanish when the delusion hits the shoals of cost, the jobs evaporate and the lights go out, in no particular order or combination. Its passing will be attributed by the eco-gloablists to the unpredicted cancer of populism.

        80

      • #
        Rereke Whakaaro

        Look at the longer game.

        What are the chances of Turnbull being re-elected, ever?

        Where would he be likely to go, if he were not re-elected?

        Would it be useful for him to have a friend in Obama, to help him get there?

        That is the way the game is played. Helen Clark ended up at the UN, with a sinecure for life, and only just recently missed out on getting the top job.

        140

        • #
          el gordo

          And let’s not forget Australia’s first female PM, who organized a nice little job for herself with the UN at our expense.

          100

        • #
          Manfred

          It’s amazing isn’t it? Not one of these folk actually ‘need’ a job at the UN or in a permanent Chair at some government funded tertiary Conversational institution. They do it presumably because they’re driven much as zealots are, to impose their view of the World. There’s a certain comfort to be had in ‘birds of a feather…’. Doubtless there may also be a narcissistic element of addiction to power and importance.

          It will be interesting to learn where the recently resigned John Key, PM of NZ (who took no salary; POTUS Elect – also no salary), turns his hand to.

          60

          • #
            el gordo

            Key may return to his roots.

            ‘In 1995, he joined Merrill Lynch as head of Asian foreign exchange in Singapore. That same year he was promoted to Merrill’s global head of foreign exchange, based in London, where he may have earned around US$2.25 million a year including bonuses, which is about NZ$5 million at 2001 exchange rates.

            ‘Some co-workers called him “the smiling assassin” for maintaining his usual cheerfulness while sacking dozens (some say hundreds) of staff after heavy losses from the 1998 Russian financial crisis. He was a member of the Foreign Exchange Committee of the New York Federal Reserve Bank from 1999 to 2001.’

            30

        • #
          Andrew

          But come on, it’s not like the unemployable Gillard who needed the money to keep the First Moocher for the rest of their lives! St Malcolm has $200m in Cayman accounts. He doesn’t need to work for the UNSSR, or the Crimton Foundation, for $200k PA. Hell, even Lucy makes a ton of money from fingers in various parasitic organisations like Grattan.

          Why is he going to destroy himself and retire in disgrace having led the govt to utter oblivion? If he brings in a carbon tax their next result will be 0 seats. They will be junior Coalition partners with a NAT-PHON opposition (and this only from the 2nd term senators they retain).

          30

      • #
        Raven

        . . the incredible spectacle of our PM racing over to have a last minute and utterly useless selfie with Obama.

        Hey TdeF, go easy . .
        That’s Malcolm’s legacy you’re talking about . . ;)

        OK, all jokes aside, who was the first Oz politician to meet up with The Donald?
        Cory Bernardi . . he knows where it’s at.

        50

  • #
    David Maddison

    Instead of taxing carbon why don’t they tax oxygen since politicians and Greens waste so much of it.

    81

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      If you put fuel into your car, you have to pay a green tax on it.

      If a politician puts fuel into their official car, the price of the fuel itself, plus the green tax, is passed on to the tax payers.

      Politicians see no problem with this, at all.

      90

    • #
      Raven

      Because CO2 is essentially a proxy for energy.
      Control CO2 and you control pretty much everything.

      30

  • #
    pat

    ABC on a CAGW roll today:

    “virtue” signalling:

    6 Dec: ABC Breakfast: Emissions intensity scheme an Australian ‘innovation’: (Danny Price/Frontier Economics)
    An emissions intensity scheme for the electricity sector would encourage more lower polluting power generators, create competition and have a positive effect on the economy, says Danny Price, the economist who devised the scheme…
    ‘People get nervous when they haven’t seen it before, but it’s simple’, he says.
    ‘Once people understand it’s different to a tax … and if they have an open mind, they’ll see there is great virtue in it’.
    Price is a board member of the Climate Change Authority, which earlier this year recommended the scheme.
    It’s also tipped to be recommend by the draft energy report of the Chief Scientist, Alan Finkel, which will be considered by Premiers and the Prime Minister at the COAG leaders meeting this Friday.
    Danny Price says it’s the same scheme he devised in 2009 for then Opposition leader Malcolm Turnbull and South Australian senator, Nick Xenophon…
    Danny Price says the scheme will encourage more low emission generators, including gas, as highly polluting coal generators close.
    ‘It creates a pro competitive effect’, he says.
    ‘It can’t be called a tax and will have a lower impact on prices’
    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/emissions-intensity-scheme-an-australian-'innovation'/8095132

    6 Dec: ABC: CSIRO, Energy Networks Australia back emissions trading scheme over RETs to lower power prices
    By Matt Coleman and Julia Holman
    A carbon emissions trading scheme in the electricity sector could lead to an average saving of $216 per year on household power bills, a major report has concluded…
    “We think the emission intensity scheme is the clearest area where there is potential for consensus among the various policy-makers in state and federal governments beyond the election cycle,” ENA chief executive John Bradley said…
    Mr Bradley said market-driven solutions were most likely to drive down the cost of wholesale power, which he said should then be passed on at the retail level.
    “Customers could save over $200 per year through technology-neutral approaches like an emission intensity scheme ***compared to current business-as-usual policies,” he said.
    Mr Bradley explained there should be more of an emphasis on encouraging people to use solar power and battery storage in their homes to then feed the electricity back into the grid.
    “What we want to do is provide them the incentives and rewards that take advantage of the solar and storage they install so that they don’t have to build traditional generation or traditional poles and wires,” he said…
    The CSIRO said more than $100 billion of taxpayer money could be saved by encouraging households to take up solar and battery storage…
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-06/csiro-backs-emissions-trading-scheme-to-reduce-power-prices/8094498

    41

    • #
      FarmerDoug2

      Sorry Pat, couldn’t stand to read it.
      Doug

      70

      • #
        David Maddison

        I forced myself to read it and it was sickening.

        They keep talking about “pollution”. What pollution?

        Fossil power stations haven’t emitted any pollution for many decades since electrostatic precipitators and gas scrubbers were introduced.

        70

    • #
      Raven

      ‘It can’t be called a tax and will have a lower impact on prices’

      Absurd verbal chicanery and blatantly obvious deception.
      Call it what you like but if it isn’t a tax, it would have zero impact on prices.

      20

  • #
  • #
    David Maddison

    O/T

    If only politicians and the sheeple could understand how important this equation is as the very basis of Civilisation, from the first campfire until today.

    C(s) + O2 (g) → CO2 (g) ∆H= –393.5kJ

    51

    • #
      Manfred

      In order to ‘create’ fire early hominids required an insight into its utility. A ‘need’ emerged from the primal desires for warmth and light. Cooking is not far behind. ‘Wants’ such as these may have grown from observing the wild fires and it’s easy to see how they become ‘needs’.

      The Green Boondoggle, the UN Agenda and UN ECOSOC Marxist social engineering should quickly have things back at the global ‘want’ stage. As prosperity collapses so will the ‘need’ for electrical power, whether domestic or industrial. Perfect Green circularity.

      60

      • #

        Again!!! Thanks Joanne
        h/t to Gail Combs 2 December 2016 at 2:30 pm

        THE WRATH OF THE AWAKENED SAXON by Rudyard Kipling

        It was not part of their blood,
        It came to them very late,
        With long arrears to make good,
        When the Saxon began to hate.

        They were not easily moved,
        They were icy — willing to wait
        Till every count should be proved,
        Ere the Saxon began to hate.

        Their voices were even and low.
        Their eyes were level and straight.
        There was neither sign nor show
        When the Saxon began to hate.

        It was not preached to the crowd.
        It was not taught by the state.
        No man spoke it aloud
        When the Saxon began to hate.

        It was not suddently bred.
        It will not swiftly abate.
        Through the chilled years ahead,
        When Time shall count from the date
        That the Saxon began to hate.

        I think Kipling has a much better handle on the ‘Deplorables’ than the progressives and media has.

        80

      • #
        el gordo

        The first recorded bbq was at Wonderwerk in South Africa around a million years ago and they reckon the chef was homo erectus, the character who grew the big brain.

        50

  • #
    pat

    as always, MSM will find a ***gotcha line every time, & Fran Kelly’s dishonest, attacking interview with Craig Kelly (unlike the lovefest with Danny Price/Frontier Economics) was designed to provide one, which Rosie/Australian have just jumped on:

    6 Dec: Australian: Rosie Lewis: Cory Bernardi slams Liberal’s carbon pricing on power companies idea
    ***A group of “nervous” Coalition MPs could support a type of carbon pricing on power companies if it reduces electricity costs, says Liberal MP Craig Kelly, as his colleague Cory Bernardi slams the idea as “one of the dumbest things I have ever heard”…
    But South Australian cabinet minister Christopher Pyne flatly rejected the concept and Senator Bernardi questioned why the government would “reopen a cauterised wound that had healed”.
    “It will not lower prices and is not in the national interest,” he told The Australian…
    Tony Abbott’s former chief of staff Peta Credlin claimed she had never seen such a reaction from backbenchers on an issue like she had yesterday.
    “My phone has not stopped all day. People are really angry that they sense the party will re-litigate those issues which they had considered closed and dealt with,” she told Sky News last night…

    Mr Kelly, a NSW MP who chairs the backbench environment and energy committee, said he had no objection to the government’s climate change review leaving everything on the table but warned if it recommended a change in policy that increased the price of electricity “a lot of us in the Coalition will not accept that”.
    “We are nervous about it because we think electricity costs, energy costs are such an important factor for every single household, for every single business and we have to be so careful with these schemes,” Mr Kelly told ABC radio…
    Asked if he was open to a sector-specific scheme, Mr Kelly said: ***“If we’re going to see electricity prices reduce that way, fantastic, I’m all for it, but if we’re going to see electricity prices, some scheme come in, that pushes electricity prices higher in this country, that is what the objection is about.
    “There’s no ideological opposition to this, it’s simply about the cost of electricity in this nation.”
    Frontier Economics managing director Danny Price, who has worked with Malcolm Turnbull and independent senator Nick Xenophon on models for an emissions intensity scheme, said it could not be called a carbon tax because it did not raise taxes for the government.
    “It has much, much lower impacts on prices. In fact, applied to Australia it actually puts prices lower than they would otherwise be so it can’t be claimed that prices will skyrocket because in fact prices will moderate,” he said on ABC radio.
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/cory-bernardi-slams-liberals-carbon-pricing-on-power-companies-idea/news-story/60cbcadb271acba5d978aed9237238e6

    the gotcha line came after Fran Kelly repeatedly insisted that Danny Price said an emissions intensity scheme would actually lower prices & insisted Craig Kelly listen to excerpts from the earlier Danny Price interview. deceptively she played Price quotes claiming lower prices, but also including Price’s “will have a ****lower impact on prices”. Craig Kelly picked up on Price having it both ways, which shut Fran Kelly up.

    however, she then challenged Craig Kelly with the CSIRO deception that households could save $200+ per year under a carbon emissions trading scheme. again, Craig Kelly challenged this assessment, suggesting CSIRO was compared the savings against other options, if I heard him correctly.

    CSIRO, networks put lie to conservative campaign against wind, solar
    RenewEconomy-1 hour ago
    The CSIRO and the Energy Networks Australia also say that such grids will be ***cheaper than business-as-usual***, and as a way of illustrating the pathway forward show how South Australia could be powered 80 per cent by wind and solar by 2036…

    Australians can have zero-emission electricity, without blowing the bill
    The Conversation AU-2 hours ago

    ***ABC doubling down!

    AUDIO: 6 Dec: ABC AM: John Holman: Electricity costs and emissions set to rise unless urgent action taken: report
    Electricity bills are set to rise unless there’s major changes to the way the country’s energy networks operate. A new report from Energy Networks Australia and the CSIRO says more than $100 billion can be saved by encouraging households to take up solar and battery storage and then feed that electricity back into the grid.
    The report says if the plan is followed, it could save the average household ***$400 a year on electricity bills and it could also help make the grid more stable and reduce carbon emissions.
    However, the plan will work best if the Government to put a price on emissions, an approach that some members of the Coalition have rejected.
    Featured:
    John Bradley, CEO, Energy Networks Australia
    Paul Graham, CSIRO Chief Economist Energy
    http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2016/s4587539.htm

    41

  • #
    pat

    Electricity Network Transformation Roadmap: Key Concepts Report
    LINKS:
    •Electricity Network Transformation Roadmap: Key Concepts Report – Summary
    •Electricity Network Transformation Roadmap: Key Concepts Report
    Media Releases
    No choice needed between Energy Security or Low Emissions – if we act now (6 December 2016)
    Value for Energy Customers in Network Transformation (6 December 2016)
    Zero Net Emissions electricity – It can be done (6 December 2016)
    http://www.energynetworks.com.au/electricity-network-transformation-roadmap-key-concepts-report-0

    btw when I do a search CSIRO “All”, today I am getting the most extraordinary result, what mounts to entire pages of CSIRO PR – large boxes with Top Stories CSIRO underneath the CSIRO generic pages, then large boxes with CSIRO Tweets, followed by huge map showing CSIRO locations. this takes up almost the entire first page of results & the second page of results is similar, CSIRO YouTube page, Facebook page & so on and so on.

    some final words on Fran Kelly:

    after all her deceptive efforts to insinuate that a carbon emissions trading scheme would lower prices (according to “experts” Danny/CSIRO), near the end she actually argues the opposite, saying that fulfilling our Paris commitment would necessarily have a cost. this was in response to Craig Kelly saying Australian business already pays double what US business pays, & can’t compete.

    referring to the Paris Agreement/reducing carbon emissions, Fran says that’s what “the globe” signed on to, before hastily changing it to “countries signed on to”.

    audio is now up:

    AUDIO: 6 Dec: ABC Breakfast: (Craig) Kelly objects to any climate policy change that affect electricity prices
    He said if such a scheme brought electricity prices down that would be a fantastic thing.
    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/kelly/8095266

    31

  • #
    Bulldust

    Slightly O/Topic, but in the realm of politics. The ABC is at it again, with a story from Bruce Wolpe criticising Trump:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-06/bruce-wolpe-trump-the-presidency-west-wing/8087540

    Here’s a few choice words, for example:

    It is not about Trump’s pedigree: his political identity contains many slivers of American extremism and radicalism: Huey Long, Charles Lindbergh, Joe McCarthy, George Wallace, Barry Goldwater, Pat Buchanan, H. Ross Perot. In this mix lies the demagoguery, the racism, the isolationism, the protectionism, the pugilism, the crony capitalism that defines Trump.

    The nagging question about Trump is not about his psychological infirmities – the narcissism and grandiosity which have been seriously assayed – and which learned medical practitioners will assess in books yet to be written.

    Forgotten who Wolpe is? He was Chief of Staff to Julia Gillard … worst.PM.ever. If you want a giggle, look at the articles that Wolpe put up previous to this tirade on the ABC:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/bruce-wolpe/7374714

    Not even a slender hold on reality that boy…

    80

    • #
      Bulldust

      I wouldn’t complain to the ABC, however, as the more they publish of this tripe, the more they drive rational people away. Sooner or later their viewer/reader numbers will force budget shrinkage.

      80

    • #
      clive

      Has there ever been a “Lefty”with a grip on reality?

      10

  • #
    Mark D.

    The global anti-establishment backlash has claimed another scalp …….

    I’m very surprised that 18C does not apply to such a reference to indigenous peoples and their violent habits.

    60

  • #
    Egor TheOne

    It appears that ‘the Marxist Conglomerate’ (EU division) has taken another hit by the forced resignation(bum’s rush out)of yet another Big Bank Crony and EU yes man!

    Go Italy!

    Meanwhile back in Aus, our ‘esteemed leader’(the waffler) schemes another sneaky great big new carbon tax to appease his leftoid cohorts and his Goldman and Sachs of Carbon Credits big bank scammers.

    50

  • #
    Dennis

    The Biggest Problem For Electric Cars …. noting that the SA Labor government is one where creating an all electric fleet in a city (Adelaide) is a priority for government, even though electricity supply is doubtful.

    However, what is the biggest problem?

    https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/ceo-ford-just-perfectly-summarized-061600597.html

    31

    • #
      Willard

      That’s interesting, Mr Ford claims there’s no demand for Electric cars yet Tesla take 400,000 pre orders for the Model 3 and suddenly GM, VW, Mazda, Jaguar and others announce new EV programs, in fact CEO of Toyota Akio Toyoda is personally overseeing their electric vehicle program, but what’s really interesting is Ford motor company has teamed up with BMW, Audi, Porsche, VW and Daimler to built an EV fast charging network in Europe, maybe Fords inhouse communication needs improving?

      22

      • #
        Analitik

        “Preorders” my a$$. The 373,000 odd (no updates since the April Tweets) $1000 refundable “reservation” deposits are merely strong expressions of interest. And the number will have been eroded by loss of interest (as the Model 3 production timeframe keeps getting pushed out) and cannibalisation from sales of the Model S to the deposit holders (many discussions on the Tesla forums about approaches made for this).

        Elron would be tweeting left right and center if the reservation numbers were increasing but every time it has been mentioned in conference call this half of the year, he has deflected.

        Ford is in the fast charging network consortium for regulatory reasons – not because of “pent up demand”

        41

        • #
          Willard

          Good point about the Model S cannibalizing sales of the Model 3, every sale of a higher priced Model S today that puts money in the kitty now instead of selling a lower cost Model 3 in late 2017 is a good sale, considering Model S sales more than doubled for quarter 3 2016 over Q3 2015 the prospect of a lower cost Tesla is causing a reduction in customer interest.
          Please tell me about these regulatory reasons Ford has to build a fast charging network in Europe?

          30

          • #
            Graeme No.3

            The model S sells at a loss. There is no extra in the kitty.

            And if Trump asks for repayment of the $US 4.9 billion in subsidies that the Musk companies have had?

            31

            • #
              Willard

              There is no $4.9 billion in subsidies, that figure is compiled from a combination of loans ( that have been repaid ahead of schedule ) tax rebates to car buyers who qualify and potential future incentives that are available to US car makers, best you read the full story and not just the click bait headlines.

              12

              • #
                PhilJourdan

                False. A “tax rebate” is a subsidy if no tax has been paid. If taxes are paid, then it is a tax cut. But the contingency of the rebate does not rely on taxes being paid to get the rebate (tax credit).

                And there were no “loans”. The government does not “loan” money. It guarantees loans made to the company (so if the loan is defaulted, the government has to pay the lender).

                Perhaps before being so quick to condemn, you should learn what you are talking about.

                10

            • #
              Willard

              Better provide some facts on how the Model S sells at a loss Graeme.

              11

              • #
                PhilJourdan

                List price of car – minus tax rebates (credits) = cost to consumer. Cost to consumer less than cost to build, equals selling at a loss, with the government subsidizes the difference.

                It is simple algebra. Did you ever take the class?

                00

          • #
            Analitik

            It’s ridiculous EU proposals like this that are forcing the major manufacturers to roll out a charging network – governments “creating” demand for EVs. Without it, there would be little incentive to buy anything but short range cheap commuter EVs so margins will be minimal.

            https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2016/oct/11/electric-car-charging-point-new-home-europe-renault

            11

            • #
              Willard

              Can you point out the part where Ford is part of the Electric charging consortium for regulatory reasons? by the way the Guardian story linked is 2 months old, the EV Charging network was only announced by Ford and partners last week, guess you’re struggling to back up statements with facts.

              12

              • #
                clive

                Willard,why don’t you do your own research?Tesla with-out the subsidies,would never have got off the ground,just as wind and solar are a dud.

                00

              • #
                Willard

                Clive are you suggesting I do my own research on a claim Analitik has made concerning Ford’s involvement in a Euro fast charging network but can’t back up with facts?

                00

    • #
      Lewis P Buckingham

      Yes, this seems to be the pattern.
      When heavily susidised, Chinese buy them.
      Shareholders have bid up the tesla.
      However their expectations are not matched by the market.

      http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/wall-street-journal/cheap-petrol-makes-plugins-a-tough-sell/news-story/b53f8f183d68d27558480e8e067281ab

      11

  • #
    Dennis

    Polling meaningless, at least when it comes to politics?

    In my opinion it is now.

    40

  • #
    Dennis

    How many power walls to save SA …. see Financial Review today.

    I read the hard copy, there is a firewall on line so I cannot retrieve the article

    30

  • #
    Bruce

    aka Sunray
    Thank you Jo, for the information, which confirms my desire to se the end of the EU and the hostile to the West, UN.

    40

  • #
  • #

    Is Trump and his air head wife going to rob the poor using the global warming scam as a reason.

    36

    • #
      Radical Rodent

      I’m not too sure you fully understand what is going on; Trump seems more likely to help the poor than rob them. Clinton certainly made the play for helping the poor, with the Clinton Fund to help the victims of the Haiti earthquake; however, the recent hurricane blowing through Haiti showed that they are still living in shanty huts. Where has the money gone? Well, the Clintons seem to be doing pretty well…

      Also, in case you haven’t noticed, Trump has called the global warming scam for what it is – a hoax. Hopefully, once he gets into office, he will ensure it is one of his first targets for the scrap-heap.

      30

  • #
    Analitik

    Do any of the Americans know much about Christopher Suprun?
    Casting his Electoral Vote for John Kasich seems like a protest gesture by an establishment Republican. What happens if enough of the College vote for someone other than Hillary or Trump for both of their numbers to fall below 270?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/05/opinion/why-i-will-not-cast-my-electoral-vote-for-donald-trump.html

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    Radical Rodent

    “Populist” is what we call it when the people vote the wrong way…

    The very idea of democracy is being subverted – it is becoming such that “democracy” is in action only when voting agrees with the powers that be deem that it should be.

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    [...] Nova (JoanneNove.com.au) writes about the recent referendum in Italy, which is reminiscent of Brexit. Yet another [...]

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