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“Democracy hurting our climate response” — closet totalitarians at the ABC again

The ABC Drum Pater Burdon asks:   Is democracy hurting our climate change response?

Indeed! Burdon is impressed with Naomi Orsekes’ speculation that China will “weather” the climate change storm because it is an undemocratic (and glorious communist) state.  This same country builds the equivalent of a new coal powered plant every 10 days, and suffers from smogifying pollution so crippling that up to 250,000 people may be dying of it. Let’s try that “centralized” government where peaceful activists and people who complain about corruption get jailed or risk torture. And who could forget the “success” of big-government in China last century — no other style of government has successfully killed as many people, ever.

Burdon

Is it democracy that is blocking progress on climate change or the current limited version of it that pervades Western society? Peter D Burdon writes.

The third possibility is that democracy is working just fine, and the masses of “dumb” voters have it right. What if believers can’t convince the voters that their alarming-tax-plan can stop the storms because the case for a carbon-crisis is pathetically weak? Could it be that people don’t need a degree in the history of feminist art to see that climate scientists got it wrong, there is still snow, and the world is not like the simulations?

This is something Burton and the ABC fans simply can’t imagine:

“The strongest argument against democracy is a five minute discussion with the average voter.”

This glib remark supposedly from Winston Churchill encapsulates a scepticism that many people have about democracies and their ability to respond to a crisis. Democracy, according to this view, is an endless meeting that provides everyone (regardless of their expertise or ignorance) an equal say.

The real failure of democracy

The current failure of democracy is that Western nations are spending so much to solve a problem that most of their citizens don’t want their money spent on.

Badly designed polls with vague motherhood type questions can make it look like half the population wants to “do something”. But better polls show that most people don’t want to spend anything. In the UK 62% of people are skeptics.  Globally, 63% don’t want their dollars spent on the environment…. The environment is low on the list of concerns, and only 3% of Americans name “environment” as the top issue.  Worse for alarmists, climate change is low on the list of environmental issues — in Australia “climate change” ranked 7th out 8 of environmental concerns.

When big-government fails, the answer is more and bigger government

The inefficiency of democratic governance in responding to crisis is acknowledged in the wartime practice of increasing executive power and suspending debate and ordinary decision-making mechanisms.

Following this example, a number of climate advocates have begun considering the benefits of greater centralisation in decision-making to mitigate the devastating scenarios offered by climate scientists.

For example, in an interview about her new book The Collapse of Western Civilization, Naomi Oreskes argued: “If anyone will weather this storm it seems likely that it will be the Chinese.”

And so collective self reinforcing blindness makes it possible for Peter Burdon to suggest that the nation which produces more greenhouse emissions than any other nation, where democracy doesn’t exist, and where human rights are a real issue,  might somehow be a nation we can look up to? A great leap forward indeed.

The largest moneyed interest stays invisible

Burton talks about the effect of “vested interests” on democracy, but completely misses the largest single vested interest by far.

Oh, the conspiracy of it all…

In light of these factors, Western democracies are best described as a plutocracy (rule by moneyed interests) in which some of the formal elements of democracy remain.

In ancient Greece, democracy was associated with the rule of demos - the common people. In contrast, governments have redefined democracy in economic terms where people simply vote periodically for ‘political entrepreneurs’, who seek out their vote like commercial interests seek out dollars in the marketplace.

It is surely conceivable, perhaps even likely, that moves to deepen democratic institutions and dramatically reduce the flow of private money into politics (including closing loopholes in disclosure laws) would result in laws that reflect community and ecological interests better than those made by corporate democracy. Indeed, Harvard Law Professor Lawrence Lessig contends: “We will never get your issue solved unless we fix this issue [of money in politics] first.”

Democracy would work better if we could reduce the influence of moneyed interests, but the largest single block of moneyed interests in both dollars and votes is the government itself. US government expenditure is about 25% of the entire GDPOver 100 million US residents are on welfare. In 2011, fully 44.7 percent of the population paid no federal income taxes. It’s  48%  in Australia.

Who among these voters will vote for a smaller more efficient government? As I’ve discussed before, the real problem with Democracy is when the voters start to vote themselves the contents of the Treasury. Not that you’ll hear about that on their ABC. The incentives are all wrong, of course, for a publicly funded news outlet to discuss the pitfalls of public funding.

You just can’t get this sort of multistory nonsense for free. It takes a lot of tax dollars to pack this much ignorance and blindness into one article.

The ABC (and most universities) are out of control. Let the people vote…

By Peter Burdon

 

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170 comments to “Democracy hurting our climate response” — closet totalitarians at the ABC again

  • #
    Aaron M

    Oh well.
    US Secretary of State says Islam and The Left have a common enemy.

    Is it the terrorist group ISIL?

    No, its CO2! And its wants your head on a stick!!

    So I guess this is at least in line with the Left of the Northern Hemisphere.

    400

    • #
      KinkyKeith

      That comment by John Kerry doesn’t say much for him and reflects badly on the democratic process which installed him in his office.

      John Kerry says CO2 is Evil.

      Just have a think about that. Is it insulting to the people he represents or is he just off the planet?

      KK

      410

      • #
        Glen Michel

        Aliens are here to conquer us .Kerry and Gore are the extra-terrestrials thatwe have been warned about in ” the prophecies” . Run and hide humanoids!

        130

      • #
        Tim

        The clean, renewable Germans are the global benchmark in fighting the CO2 evil. With all their experience, precision and persistence, they can’t make it work. So why is the US so keen to follow their failed strategies?

        http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/green-energy-bust-in-germany

        150

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        KK,

        Re: Kerry. He came home from Vietnam after only two or three months of his assignment to the Swift Boats if I remember correctly (jeez, this is dangerous!), I suspect as soon as he could get the necessary strings pulled and then began badmouthing his country. He even went to Europe and did it there.

        What then would you expect from such a man as Secretary of State? I expected nothing good and that way I’m not disappointed.

        If Obama wanted the Three Stooges all in one man he picked well. If life was only a comedy act…

        200

        • #
          KinkyKeith

          Hi Roy,

          Swift boats?

          What little we see of JK on our TV screens points to him as being chief vacillator and it was therefore a bit of a surprise to see him as Chief Negotiator working to stop the Israel-Gaza conflict.

          KK

          30

          • #
            the Griss

            “to see him as Chief Negotiator working to stop the Israel-Gaza conflict”

            Its also a pretty good indication of why it doesn’t appear to be working.

            70

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            I recently resolved to speak less harshly to or about those with whom I disagree. But it gets real hard when confronted with some of the people in whose hands we have placed our government and our safety. So…

            Kerry is another buffoon like Joe Biden — different man, different words but a buffoon stumbling his way through life nevertheless, having no grip on reality and apparently content to be that way. If the potential results of having them in control weren’t so bad I could enjoy the joke and then ignore them. But everything they touch goes downhill.

            In a time when we should get hard nosed about our security and start arming ourselves for the fight that will surely come, these guys are crying peace, peace, peach and diminishing our military even more while war is brewing all around them. Shades of the late 1930s… …so blind.

            I can hardly wait for the president’s speech on Wednesday announcing that he finally has a strategy for dealing with the situation. Does the man not see what a fool he has been for so long?

            40

        • #
          Yonniestone

          I recently read a post on WUWT with a video of John Kerry making truly bizarre statements.

          I’m no expert on the job of US Secretary of State but if this is it they should have the decency to supply a sandwich board and beard.

          60

          • #
            OriginalSteve

            John Kerry & GWB are both member sof the Skull & Bones secret society.

            People should read up on what it is.

            Then you will understand why he is so keen on solving a problem that only gives more power to the govt…

            Hint- totalitarianism.

            41

            • #
              Roy Hogue

              Well then! Obama didn’t attend Yale so we must be OK with him as president. Right?

              Well, am I right?… …I didn’t hear you. Someone please say yes.

              There are too many of these all powerful “clubs” to keep track of. This looks like it could be a major conspiracy against the security of the United States. Someone should let the Department of Homeland Security and the FBI know immediately.

              Need I indicate sarcasm?

              It’s too easy to say one group or another is so powerful and it’s not so easy for it to be true. And a group that may have been powerful once may no longer be so powerful. In the end the American voter gets what he voted for. And when we can’t recognize empty words we get Obama.

              30

      • #
        Safetyguy66

        So Im surrounded by evil right now?

        I should have another go at summoning Satan then, it might work if I have enough evil in the room.

        Gotta love a country in which around 90% of the population believes the world is less than 10,000 years old, always a good basis for a society I think.

        60

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          I want some authoritative source for your 90% figure. Please, I live here and I’ve more than enough personal experience to doubt that 90%. I don’t believe you know what you’re talking about.

          But even if true. so what?

          20

      • #
        Manfred

        About says it all…

        Kerry: Confronting Climate Change a ‘Responsibility Laid Down in Scriptures’

        Is John Kerry mentally ill? ‘Scriptures Commands America To Protect Muslims From Global Warming ‘

        70

        • #
          Greg Cavanagh

          I watched his announcement of that about 5 days ago. “mentally ill” is the sanest explanation; the other explanations are even more disturbing.

          30

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          Secret society or not, Kerry is what I’ve described, a man with no grip on reality. Is that dangerous? Was Jimmy Carter dangerous? Was the obviously paranoid Richard Nixon dangerous?

          Yes. Yes and Yes.

          The mental condition we can’t do anything about but we need to get him out of any government position ASAP. And so too for Obama and many others. How about that little girl in a woman’s clothing, Nancy Pelosi? How about the senior senator from Nevada who acts like a senile old man, Harry Reid? And what about Barbara (call me Senator) Boxer?

          I can go on with a long list of people in the executive branch who are dangerous, some are out of the closet communists and some are worse, Muslims with known or suspected ties to interests counter to the good interest of the United States.

          And all we can do is talk about it. And meantime the big buzz is that Mitt Romney is going to run for president again (which he denies, at least until he decides to do it). And he wins hands down over any Republican and apparently over Hillary too according to the magic pollsters.

          Can we please get our collective head out of our collective ass and start thinking straight?

          What is the matter in this country?

          40

    • #
      Rolf

      I just want this on top :)

      The email address to the author of the article on the ABC site is peter.burdon@adelaide.edu.au Why not write to him direct as the ABC is censoring the comments. Maybe he is the moderator which would not be unlikely. Give him some work reading his email !

      50

    • #
      Ceetee

      Suspect ISIL couldn’t give a shiite about climate change. Not an issue in the 7th century AD. Kerry really does sound dumb at times. Arrogant, disconnected.

      20

  • #
    Lord Jim

    “The strongest argument against democracy is a five minute discussion with the average voter.”

    Hmmm, I think that can be improved:

    “The strongest argument against the ABC is the usual five minute political morality lecture from one of its homogenized stock of green-left journalists”

    401

  • #
    KinkyKeith

    A logical analysis to find the best way of generating electrical power for the people of our planet would incorporate Scientific Knowledge allied with Engineering Assessment and Cost.

    Of the current options the cheapest and safest and most widely applicable form of generation is the coal fired power.

    In a few locations thermal may be the answer and in many more hydro is the answer but generally it is Coal Fired as number one.

    Then we have Nuclear which is far cheaper than any of the “renewables” but has been dogged by the failures which can almost all be traced back to corrupt practices in constructing, certifying, maintaining and decommissioning at the right time. You can save a lot of operating costs if you have a Government which can be bought and paid to overlook known engineering safety issues with nuclear plants.

    Then we have “renewables” like bird shredders, solar roof top, solar concentrating mirror arrays and so on. All of these latter are experimental and prohibitively costly. None of these should be in operation anywhere around the planet except in very isolated areas where they are the source of last resort.

    There is NO scientific possibility that human origin CO2 can cause Global Warming despite the very real micro mechanism by which CO2 can absorb outgoing IR. This mechanism to the Earth’s Atmosphere is as significant as the effect of a lone flea sitting on the back of one elephant in a rampaging herd of elephants heading for the nearest waterhole.

    My observation is this: Given the above reasonable outline how can we still have major media and government spokespersons denying that coal fired is the most sensible, least cost, power supply currently available and claiming that CO2 is evil?

    How is democracy served when basic scientific and engineering fact can be pushed aside by those charged to look after our best interests (politicians) and those charged with keeping us informed and not mislead or deceived (journalists).

    KK

    261

    • #
      Geoff Sherrington

      KK,
      You can rant away, but your comments on nuclear are plain ignorant and make one think that you rely on the dogma of others, absent any first hand experience.
      On safety alone – if you care for human life – nuclear is orders of magnitude safer than the coal you pick as your personal winner. Nuclear fuel is far cheaper than coal per unit of useful energy. Most of a nuclear power plant downstream end, the turbines etc., is rather similar to coal fired plants, the main difference is in the front end where nuclear, being more concentrated in energy potential, is far superior. The coal mine is again orders of magnitude bigger and despoiling than the ursnium mine. Nuclear does not generate significant CO2.
      What is not to like?
      How to you get to choose coal as superior? Why, in GB, they are replacing coal with woodchips by Drax. Coal must be really good, eh?

      1310

      • #
        Oksanna

        Respect to all your great work, Geoff, but personally I liked KK’s gutsy broadside. The nuclear industry has embraced CAGW like a drowning man to a straw. I would rather have the radioactivity from burnt coal emissions (apparently there is some) to nuclear radiation anyday. Many CAGW advocates such as Barack Obama tout nuclear energy as a solution. The industry even helped fund his run for President. I see “clean, green” nuclear as akin to a trojan horse in the climate debate. Maybe its no coincidence the GE’s Energy Division (which Gore and Blood’s former Generation Investment Management LLB invested in) includes Wind, Solar and Nuclear energy. I know GE are touting these new fail-safe reactors. If they can make a fail-safe human being as an optional accessory and get a written “no natural disaster” guarantee from Mother Nature then I could be convinced. I know that Dennis Jensen and heaps of our fellow conservatives like nuclear. But I am also mindful of the massive government subsidies that nuclear demands, as well as the many decades of expensive decommissioning costs, which burden falls to the taxpayer. Hey, you also pick on KK’s lack of experience in the nuclear industry? Does that mean, post-Chernobyl and post-Fukushima Daiichi, that one can’t hold and voice an opinion? Cut us some slack here, Geoff, please. Not convinced, and with KK’s exemplary “rant” on this one.

        123

      • #
        The Backslider

        Why, in GB, they are replacing coal with woodchips by Drax. Coal must be really good, eh?

        You just lost your argument. Drax uses woodchips due to green policy and subsidies. Woodchips create real pollution and more CO2. To suggest that woodchips are superior is pretty ignorant.

        193

      • #
        James Murphy

        Yes, but the UK has also committed to building more nuclear power plants too…

        30

      • #
        the Griss

        Coal and Gas are the absolute winners, because they release sequestered CO2 into the atmosphere where it belongs.

        Feed the world. !

        151

      • #
        KinkyKeith

        Not sure what is going on here.

        I think nuclear is a great option.

        My one and only concern is that Engineering Imperatives are not obeyed and it is clear that this is because of Money.

        Extension of plant life (as in Nuclear) can add millions to the profitability as can reduction in building costs if certain safety measures are allowed to be just at bare minimum.

        I understood that the recent Japanese shambles was due to an unwise extension of the operating life of the plant which unfortunately eventually showed its age and failed.

        ?

        KK

        50

        • #
          Sceptical Sam

          I thought it failed because it got sea water in its “gearbox” and it overheated, not because of any extension to its operating life.

          The sea water was a result of a Tsunami that was supposed to be stopped by an undersized sea wall.

          I could be wrong. Either way there’s only good to come out it through a greater focus on more advanced systems like LFTR.

          20

      • #
        PeterS

        Geoff Sherrington your rant is both dishonest and lacking in facts. Nuclear is NOT cheaper than coal. I’m actually an advocate of nuclear energy where it’s appropriate but in Australia coal is definitely the better source for power generation. We have centuries of supplies, it’s cheap and it’s clean. Nuclear is more expensive when one considers waste disposal costs, decommissioning costs, and capital costs. Having said that I am in favour of checking out the new forms of nuclear power generations, such as Thorium based ones. If they can be shown to be on par with the costs of using coal then we ought to seriously use them. Until that time comes, and it’s not there yet, coal is by far the best answer, with gas the second best.

        100

        • #
          Geoff Sherrington

          PeterS,
          If you strip away the huge and artificial; cost burdens that the green movement has added to the cost of nuclear, it comes out far cheaper than coal.
          It has to, the physics of energy density and the abundance of uranium ore more or less guarantees that. Have a look at these fundamentals in terms of energy in for energy out here -
          http://theenergycollective.com/barrybrook/471651/catch-22-energy-storage

          The graph says it all. Nuclear is streets ahead of all comers.

          20

      • #

        I’m a supporter of the Nuclear process to generate electricity, and having researched (if you could call it that) and written about it, there are just so many misconceptions out there about it, mainly due to that one word ….. Nuclear.

        I was looking around for an image of a large generator, a recent fairly modern one, a generator up around the 1000MW plus. I did end up finding one, and it was at a site which looked private. I emailed the site owner and asked if I might use just that one image, and he okayed it.

        His name is Jim Zimmerlin, and he actually works at the Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power Plant (DCPP) at San Luis Obispo in California. We exchanged emails for a while, but I always like to refer people to his site, because it has such wonderful information, and at a personal level, and also right at the coalface, so to speak.

        I’ll give the link here, and besides just looking at the wonderful images, please take the time to read all the text, as he covers a lot here. The images are stunning really, and it’s difficult to get images like this, because the Plant is (naturally) off limits and he had to get approval to post these images.

        In the text, he deals with safety, refuelling, etc, and in one area he mentions cost.

        The plant sells its generated power into the California grid for 1.6 cents per KWH, and that’s way cheaper than anything else out there. Even at this price, they make money.

        DCPP is now 29 years old, and has just been relicensed out to 2025/6.

        It has 2 units and a Nameplate of 2240MW, two 1120MW generators.

        Unit 1 actually holds a record for yearly power generation, 9,945GWH of power at a Capacity Factor of 101.2%, so for the whole year, 24 hours of every day, it ran flat out maximum, in fact generating more power than the nominal Nameplate.

        Jim Zim told me why. They have the refuelling process down pat, every 16 to 18 Months, for a refuel, staggered so that one unit is in operation at all times. For this one big year, the refuel was either side of the recording year for data.

        101.2% Capacity Factor, Think about that.

        That one year’s total power generation, delivered to the California grid is 13% more than is delivered from every wind plant in Australia, almost 1500 wind towers ….. from ONE generator.

        Now, admitted, the power is so cheap because it’s all from existing plants, but it is a valid point.

        When you view these stunning images, you’ll see the one of the generator room, huge. The generator is the roundish structure behind the blockhouse in the foreground with the steam turbine behind it. For perspective on size, note the man walking down the steps at the left.

        Please take the time to read the text.

        Diablo Canyon Power Plant

        Tony.

        140

        • #
          the Griss

          “They have the refuelling process down pat”

          I’m a bit surprised they haven’t come up with a “feed through” process, sort of like a commercial pizza oven.

          That way they wouldn’t have to ever take it off-line.

          20

        • #
          John F. Hultquist

          Thanks Tony. I haven’t finished reading, but the photos are great.
          There is one, namely, “An April 2007 photo from the area north of the power plant” that shows the marine terrace very well. There are several of these along the California coast, some above the sea level, some under — visual clues to a dynamic Earth.

          20

      • #
        Ted O'Brien.

        The opposition to nuclear energy was never founded in science.

        It was whipped up by the friends of Communism for the purpose of hindering Western nations in the cold war nuclear arms race.

        It is probable that few people remember that. Our education system would have avoided teaching it.

        30

    • #
      KinkyKeith

      This post might be seen as an extension of previous discussions about what was essentially Democracy in Action.

      I felt that it did not always serve the voter to best advantage.

      The core of the thing is here but it started a lot further up:

      http://joannenova.com.au/2013/01/welcome-to-a-kyoto-free-world-best-use-was-to-show-how-bad-a-nanny-state-unfree-market-is/#comment-1216976

      I am pro coal mining and pro uranium for producing power but have been a little disappointed in the other issues discussed on that thread.

      Democracy is sometimes tough and leaves people dissatisfied but is still a better way to go than many other systems.

      My best wishes to all who participate in the Democratic process.

      KK

      40

  • #
    Gary in Erko

    There’s nothing wrong with our democracy. It’s the people. They just keep refusing to vote the correct way. We need to make it mandatory for everyone to listen to the ABC.

    140

  • #
    Hartog

    “no other style of government has successfully killed as many people, ever.” Is a very absolute statement. Not sure it is correct. And not necessary, they killed and are killing lots of people but are not the first government to do so and will not be the last.

    51

    • #
      Winston

      Mao’s “Great Leap Forward” (1958-1962), leading to a widespread famine which killed upwards of 40 million people, followed by the so-called “cultural revolution” (set b/w 2 and 7 million deaths), plus the upwards of 60 million people who were either imprisoned, tortured, “re-educated”, raped, psychologically abused or otherwise forced into submission is a pretty impressive achievement, matched only by Stalin’s purges and deliberate starvation of his own people, especially Ukrainians, which killed at least 30 million. Their common ideology is not coincidental, yet unfortunately many from the left of politics feign ignorance (I know that’s ironic in itself) of these facts, while at the same time (and often in the same breathe) championing this very same system of governance as an ideal model worth following for all.

      Notwithstanding the compelling argument of the avoidance of mass genocide, Naomi Oreskes is the best argument in favour of democracy I have yet come across. Her relentless alarmist tripe, married to a vicious fascist and totalitarian streak, marks her as a dangerous hysteric, who has little or no command of objectivity, rational reasoning skills, logic or more importantly, self-awareness. In reality, she resembles the “Madwoman of Chaillot”, as portrayed by Marty Feldman.

      382

    • #
      Bones

      The only way to outdo russia and china in shear numbers will be for the UN to have its one world govt/new world order/agenda 21 up and running.Depopulation no problem and of course it will be democratic,you can choose who goes first.

      61

  • #
    el gordo

    Are we there yet?

    http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/gisp2-ice-core-temperatures.jpg

    Aunty’s closet totalitarians are blissfully unaware of irony, Eemian’s end was a shocker.

    40

  • #
    the Griss

    ““The strongest argument against democracy is a five minute discussion with the average voter.””

    The strongest argument FOR democracy is a two minute discussion with the average GREEN voter.

    Thank goodness they are only around 10% of the population !!!!!!!!

    May they never have a whiff (or in their case, a stink) of power ever again !

    261

    • #
      el gordo

      They have already begun to regroup after foolishly putting all their eggs in the CC basket. Returning to their roots, fracking and dams, in the hope that they can remain relevant in the run up to the next election.

      160

  • #
    Neville

    The mitigation of AGW is a total con and fraud. What is it these stupid fools don’t understand?
    This has SFA to do with democracy and everything to do with simple maths and simple logic and reason. Geeeezszzzzz.

    The graph from the BP stats review of world energy tells the full story about co2 emissions since 1975. The developed world has increased co2 emissions by 251 million tonnes a decade while the developing world ( China, India etc) has increased emissions by 4,084 M Ts per decade , or about 16.3 times as much. over that 39 year period. Unbelievable.

    https://bobtisdale.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/co2-emissions-developed-v-developing.png

    70

  • #
    thingadonta

    Can we suspend the ABC instead?

    The problem, as nearly always in these type of things, is too much certainty.

    Those who write such articles think that the case for climate action is so strong as to be beyond argument, so why not suspend argument?. The main problem with this, is that the case for climate action of various sorts is nowhere near as strong as they think it is.

    They don’t realise that various high level politicians and other ‘movers’ are fed information that activists and middle level public servants want them to hear. By the time information gets through the ABC it is already distorted beyond their comprehension to understand the distortion.

    An army of ABC-related foot-soldiers are employed for the cause, who eagerly take up anything fed to them, changing it to suit the cause, and making the argument appear stronger and stronger every year.

    The best argument against suspending democracy for ‘climate action’ is the failure of organisations like the ABC to be able to present dispassionate neutrality and objectivity in anything related to climate science.

    100

  • #
    the Griss

    “The Collapse of Western Civilization, Naomi Oreskes ”

    The Ork is definitely a sign of a collapsing civilisation.

    The fact that people like her can come into any sort of power, is surely a sign of a decaying system.

    They had “asylums” for her sort not that long ago.

    280

    • #
      Heywood

      “The Ork”.

      An apt description considering the individual.

      120

    • #
      Bones

      Griss,I just looked at pictures of the Ork and whoever came up with the idea Ms obama was a man would have a field day with this one.I know you should not judge people on appearance,I myself am no oil painting,but I can live with that.

      30

  • #
    KinkyKeith

    The whole point about democracy lies in the fact that as individuals we are perhaps not all that smart but in every community there are some

    very smart people who can be found to sort things out for us in the best possible way.

    In democracies we elect representatives to assemble groups of these smart people to handle all of the nations problems and in theory we

    should all profit from the collected and enabled wisdom assembled on our behalf.

    Unfortunately that’s the theory.

    In practice we have greed, sex, drugs, ego, alcohol, scotch, beer, champagne to distracted our pollies from doing their job.

    We also have the indefinable: https://www.facebook.com/KevinRudd4PrimeMinister/posts/521326107925800

    KK

    40

  • #
    Rick Bradford

    Green/Left types hate democracy and they hate capitalists.

    So why not blame the latter for ruining the former beyond repair?

    It makes ‘sense’ to them.

    90

    • #
      James Murphy

      They hate capitalists, yet, strangely, Al Gore is worshipped like a god, ‘environmental’ reports written by large financial establishments like the IMF are perfectly legitimate pieces of work (despite so many ‘lefties’ protesting in the streets about the very same organisation, and, what really takes the cake, is that they support the ‘market-based solution’ that is the Carbon tax/ETS… as opposed to any form of ‘direct action’…

      50

  • #
    ROM

    Show me a dictatorship than didn’t kill its own subjects in hindreds or thousands or tens of thousands or in tens of millions as Mao Zedong did in China, Pol Pot did in Kampuchea, Stalin did in Russia, Hitler did in Germany, Mugabe in Zimbabwe, Bashar al-Assad in Syria, Hirohito./ Tojo in the Japanese Imperial Empire and endlessly on through the whole of human history where strongmen, the Dictators killed any and all without mercy who stood in their way or who they thought might stand in their way of their lust for total power.

    The list of deadly civilisation destroying dictatorships down through history just goes on and on

    There are no printable words to describe the utter inanity, the ultimate stupidity, the naivete, the hubris, the ideological psychomaniac fixation of the intellectual midgets with all the intellectiual characteristics of a blow fly who inhabit their ABC

    It is all there written into the annals of human history, the horrific tales of the deadly dictatorships and their killing lusts down through that history if the ABC’s gnat level intellectual midgets could ever bring themselves to read a tiny iota of history to try and understand just what they are proposing to inflict on mankind.

    Their naiveté is staggering, perhaps even worse than their pure unparalleled ignorance and hubris..

    They assume that it is they who will running the world under a dictatorship.
    They assume it is they who will be setting the rules by which billions will be forced to live.
    They assume it is they who will be the sole judges of what is right and what is wrong.
    They assume it is they who will pass judgement, deadly killing judgement against the non believers, the skeptics if their overt and very publicly and repetitively repeated deadly life destroying threats against those who do not believe and who refuse to believe as they do are accepted as the aims of such dictatorship.

    They assume that nobody will ever pass judgement on them for they as Dictators will be above the law and will never be held accountable for what they did.
    They assume that they will have full deadly power to inflict their deadly proposals, proposals that according to the vast array of threats made over the last decade will aim to kill, destroy and eliminate all those skeptics, those who do not agree with their fanatical ideology or doubt it.

    Their naiveté is almost beyond human understand and more in line with the intellectual levels of a gnat at if they believe any of those things above.
    And yet from their very words and past actions they do believe that if they were given or could forcibly take those ultimate dictatorial power and could exercise that power without any moral or ethical hindrances and enforce all of those deadly human life destroying powers that they would be able to imppose on all of mankind, those mythical powers that they have been claiming they would be able to exercise and which would be the solution to a non evidential, invisible chimera problem.

    All this if only we kow-towed to their vastly superior but never evident in any sense in real life, their vastly superior knowledge, perspicuousness and moral authority as true believers and priests of the Catastrophic Climate faith and on this basis made them Planetary Dictators to “Save The Planet”.

    History if they are even capable of reading which at their ABC seems to be becoming a moot point, will tell them that those who live by the sword, die by the sword often very unpleasantly.
    Dictators of every stripe rarely ever die in office of natural causes.

    But much worse for those dictatorially promoting ABC imbeciles is the very high probability that all those wondrous powers they would wield as dictators will never eventuate for a true Dictator will see to it very quickly that any vestige of opposition to his / her rule particularly those within their immediate circle who know too much or dare to question the “Supreme Being”, “Lord of Ten Thousand Elephants”, “Keeper of the Planet”,” Climate Engineer” and “Supreme Planetary Climate Controller in Chief” are also destined to be eliminated, as unpleasantly as possible to get the message across to any other waverers.

    The intellectual midgets at the ABC and those of their running dogs who inhabit its slimy green grottos down at the end of the garden, they have evicted the fairies, should ask themselves are they prepared to kill and kill and destroy and wipe from the face of the earth, all those, their families, their friends, any who would dare to question or oppose them or their ideology if they ever were given supreme dictatorial power.

    From the previous sickening, kill the skeptics videos and statements that are a common theme in the commentary of the fanatical psychopaths of the Catastrophic global warming cult, it seems likely if we took them at face value, that they or at least a few of them, might just be of that murderous disposition and cast such is their fanaticism .

    [ After all we do have a very serious and horribly grisly example of what fanaticism can lead to right here in this age in the Middle East right now.
    And we have the same level of psychopaths within our society as anywhere else.
    Just give them a cause and the promise of never being accountable for what they do in the name of the faith and the cause and they would be no different to what is happening in the ME right now.
    Don't ever discount all those ravening idiots on the blogs who want to blow up and kill and destroy skeptics as loonies.
    Loonies a few of them might be but in another time and another place they would well be another of mankind's moral and empathy free mass killers as we have seen so often down through history ]

    And as they seek dictatorial powers that are their’s alone and that will be theirs to exercise as they wish, are they as power lusting candidates for Dictatorship themselves then prepared to be sacrificed to the power lusts of somebody even more cunning, more ruthless and even less moralistic than they intend to be, when they lose those inevitable power struggles that are an integral part of every savage, death dealing, humanity destroying dictatorship?

    If the ABC blow fly intellectual level midgets aren’t prepared for any of this,being the losers in the dictatorial p[power struggles, the “dead end” to their deepest desires to rule mankind. then they and “their ABC” as the promoters and communications channel for those who are promoting this imbecilic proposal, then you are just a mob of self indulgent, intellectually dissolute wankers so__ just___ shut__ the__ hell__ up and let the rest of us just close the ABC down forever and get on with life.

    Then we can all get on with life and our lives and let the true guide and controller of the climate Nature herself as always and forever past present and future, just get on with giving mankind and the Earth the climate that She decides on and we will just wear it just like we always have as  the earth’s sole Homo species along with all the other countless species just as life has done for as long as the Earth has existed.

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      James Murphy

      Arguably, Singapore is far from being a ‘genuine’ democracy, and has been referred to as a benevolent dictatorship by its detractors. However, I am not saying this to contradict, or cause argument, just that I think sometimes, Singapore gets forgotten in such discussions.

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      • #
        Winston

        Singapore is a city state essentially. Over such a small area, centralised government makes sense. In Australia, the reverse is true.

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          James Murphy

          yeah, but centralised government is not the point I am trying to make. I have no problem with such a system, and indeed, I have no problem with Singapore – given the way Australia is heading, I think it may well make for a better place to live – based on my few months living there.

          I am just pointing out that as a successful, and rich country, it would be a bad move to overlook the complaints of those people who have not been ‘at one’ with the system there, as many an ‘opposition’ person has come to grief – to the point where it starts to look somewhat orchestrated.

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    Rolf

    Interesting stuff as I am in China and have been for half a year now. In a way you learn to live with BigBrother, but sometimes you just has to adjust and be aware what is happening around you. Some time ago I was sitting at Starbuck’s talking with some friends, when I realized there was a man who sat not that far away, but he was listening to what was said at our table. We was talking about governments and I was only using very general terms and not about any specific country then I got the question what I think about the situation in China, about the current government and about what happened on the Tiananmen Square. Wow, I just said I had been so little time in China and really know nothing about it. Of course that was not true but sometimes it’s far better to be quiet. if not so just to be safe.

    If this people really think China is so great, give them a one way ticket. There is actually million’s of chinese people who will be so happy to take their place. People here pay millions to be able to get out, to where ? does it matter ? today a ticket out is about 5 million RMB, my educated guess. Now it’s getting hard to get a new car in China, not to buy the car but to get a plate. To get one, yes money to government. Now they are building houses in China as never before, a bit strange though is the security around each block. When going out or in you have to pass through a gate and usually there is only one place to go, of course with a lot of guards. I see this as an easy way for the government to, if needed, easily keep almost all the people locked up. I mentioned this to some friends but they just laughed and said the government is not hat clever. Well I see no other purpose, and never saw anything like this anywhere, so we may just have to wait and see. Maybe something for Oreske to live through.

    Next thing to have an eye on is the democracy killing process in HongKong. Until the election in 2016, there will for certain be struggles between people and the Chinese government. They already started to put about 30 people behind bars. Released ? I don’t know. So far this was because Beijing only want approved candidates to be available at the ballot. The approval procedure of course ruled and done from Beijing. So I guess the next major clash for freedom is bound to take place in HK.

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    Tim

    The reds are now forced to come out from under the beds.

    They must be desperate.

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    MikeS

    Something I learned from my Dad,
    People who talk the most are the least likely to get off their a***** and do anything, including change for the better or worse. There is no chance that anyone opining on The Drum will have any real say or influence, ever. The whole point is mutual self admiration and the conceit which can only exist in a vacuum.

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  • #

    Democracy may not be perfect but it is less imperfect than any alternative.

    The average voter is well able to balance cost and risk when presented with adequate data.

    If AGW proponents had adequate data then the voters would have gone along with their theories.

    Democracy is only a problem for elites with an agenda that does not match the data. In that situation the democratic process is the only defence against tyranny.

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    • #
      el gordo

      ‘…the democratic process is the only defence against tyranny.’

      Hear Hear

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      John Knowles

      Perhaps we need to list the defects of a democracy and then discuss how we could improve on the current model.

      My immediate gripe is with politicians who have not studied history.

      e.g. We funded and armed the mujahideen taliban to help throw the Red Army out of Afghanistan but ended up with a problem even worse than the Russians. Then we funded, armed and trained rebels to fight the Assad regime and guess what, they turned in to a bunch of murdering lunatics masquerading behind some religious ideology.

      Both the voters and the ministers need better history education.
      I’ll be the first to admit to being just a simple pleb and I’d like to hear others’ suggestions.

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      Ceetee

      @JK “Perhaps we need to list the defects of a democracy and then discuss how we could improve on the current model.”
      Perhaps we could get on with reestablishing the primacy of rigorous and apolitical scientific endeavour and how it should both form and frame debate in our democracies. After that we could demand that our fifth estate adhere to the strictest standards of professional integrity and objectivity. Perhaps then finally we can really hold the people we elect accountable since all the lies and subterfuge they hide behind will be gone. None of this is likely because most people live in a bubble and don’t care as long as their own needs are met/catered for regardless of truth or consequence. Democracy as it exists today is no more than a protection racket and a mirage. The fault doesn’t lie with democracy as an ideal, but with those actively engaged in undermining it.

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    Democracy is indeed messy and defective. But without it you find yourself being guided by choice spirits like Peter Burdon. While his idol Chomsky’s pet regime was that of Pol Pot, Peter Burdon recommends the Chinese model. Pete, National Socialism always works better than Marxist Socialism. It’s just that neither works for long because both are based on ignorance of human nature.

    But the worst of the projected new collectivism would be having one’s faults, achievements and aspirations announced nightly on the ABC – by those smirking convent girls they like to hire. Imagine not being able to escape from that! A Monica or a Virginia or Emma on every channel, with instructions of how to reduce your carbon footprint and issuing reports on cycleway conditions.

    The horror.

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    Andrew

    “Closet”??? In what sense are they hiding their totalitarianism?

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    Reinder van Til

    A well known cabaret artist in The Netherlands, Wim Kan (1911-1983) said: “two hoorays for democracy, not three”. He understood that democracy can be undermined by the elite

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    Yonniestone

    While there is and always has been an underlying socialist threat to democracy there was an advantage for democratic freedoms to prevail in the quashing of extreme left ideals simply by the creation of knowledge and gratitude passed down generationally of a political system that gives the fairest chance for success to it’s citizens more than any before.

    This democratic advantage of opportunity for the masses is being eroded in the form of socialist conditioning of our young and indeed already many adults in society that should know better, from pre school care using Early Years Learning Framework ‘EYLF’ where educators first expose children to the ideas of Sustainability, Social Justice, Belonging Being and Becoming, Connected, Contribute and while they’re just words alone when implemented in activities all the child will learn is to do is follow a plan or procedure according to the applicable doctrine.

    When was the last time you saw a sporting event organized just for the competiveness and spectacle? now there is a social onus placed on anyone running such events in the form of a charity or social awareness campaign being connected to anything anyone does in their leisure time, a few years ago people freely contributed to a charity of their choice without having the judging glare of society demanding they wear a certain color while they tried to beat a 5k personal best in their well earned personal time.

    One of the strongest points of a good democracy is it’s ability to create good capitalist wealth so that some can then go to the most vulnerable in society that may need help, the idea of an 8 hour day with a day of rest pushed by the Stonemasons early last century wasn’t because they were lazy they understood the importance of people having quality free time to use at their discretion, a socialist imposition on this free time is of no benefit to the people but the oppressive power of the regime.

    Both sides can argue that political systems are just different holistic approaches to achieving a type of order over a large population, this maybe but it’s just a question of how much say in that order do you want?

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    • #
      Tim

      ‘…a question of how much say in that order do you want?’

      How much say will we have if we’re governed from Brussels?

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    Eliza Doodle

    Academics are taught to believe they have the answers. The not so bright ones lap it up. Their only problem is the great unwashed who won’t let them unleash their madcap schemes on humanity. If only they could get a Big Government sponsor who would listen to them instead of their electorates.

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    Reasonable Skeptic

    How can people so smart be so stupid?

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      It is easy. They have accepted the wrong ideas as true: Post Modern Philosophy and Post Normal Science. Contact with reality is dispensed with and group think is unleashed. As a consequence, they have become Dancing Marionettes dancing to the tune of their puppet masters who are themselves dancing to their wrong ideas.

      Plato and his progeny, Kant et.al., would be proud of the mess their ideas have made of our once great and productive civilization. They worked to destroy reason to make room for faith, centralized power and control, and a submissive, enslaved, and impoverished population.

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    Bill Hutto

    Here in the U.S., if Democrats can get enough of a majority, they can amend The Constitution and get rid of that pesky universal suffrage. Then they (leftist elites) can change their name to the Inner Party and won’t have to buy votes any more. I wonder what we would call the leader, then?

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    • #

      Why amend The Constitution when you can destroy the population’s ability to think and teach them to believe the government is the source of everything? When you have accomplished that, the words in The Constitution mean what the Government Authorities say they mean. Then We the People, believing that we must be law abiding, become submissive to whatever the Government Authorities say. This even though the interpretation changes as the flight of a feather in the wind.

      As Humpty Dumpty asked, “Who is to be the master?” We the People once said “We are the masters of ourselves AND The Government!” The Democrats now say “The Government!” We the People are now saying “Who are we to disagree?” As evidence: We the People voted into office the lead Dancing Marionette twice.

      The lead Dancing Marionette has a phone and a pen that he is willing to use to change the meaning of any word of any law as well as any word in The Constitution. That transforms both The Law and The Constitution to be without meaning. Ultimately it means rule by arbitrary and unconstrained government force.

      We the People have forgotten that a Government makes a dangerous servant and a very deadly master. Sadly, We the People are going to be taught a costly lesson that has been the taught by every Government since the first. We will pay for that lesson with our wealth, our lives, and our sacred honor. Far too many already have paid that price. Many more will pay even if they don’t want to participate.

      As I have said before, we don’t need better people in office, we need better ideas in the people. That is the only path to discovering and being better people. How do we discover the better ideas? Certainly not by depending upon The Government to do it. We are on our own. I know. That sucks but that is the way it is and always has been no matter what religion or belief system one subscribes to.

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      • #
        Ceetee

        ‘Dancing Marionette ” it seems to me from afar has an Ego, an auto cue and a confused agenda. No wonder Putin feels free to be his true KGB self and psychopaths have conquered their own playground

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    Roy Hogue

    The ABC Drum Pater Burdon asks: Is democracy hurting our climate change response?

    He’s right to distrust Democracy. If allowed to work it works against the totalitarian mindset every time. Thats why maintaining control over the media is so important to them. And why they wish they could imprison dissenters. After so long a time hearing only the party line people no longer resist it. Witness North Korea.

    The one puzzle to me is why so many in the journalism profession, presumably volunteers, never having been forced into it, are so gullible about the party line.

    I surely don’t have to say that it doesn’t help that the ABC is government run.

    Rupert Murdoch may be running the only honest news service in the world. And even they don’t always get it right, especially the editorial side (O’Reilly, etc.). My opinion by the way, I try not to put words in anyone else’s mouth. The straight news side of the organization is very circumspect about not editorializing, one way or the other.

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      Roy Hogue

      I didn’t think to add this right away. But Murdoch’s organization reports on important current affairs, not what celebrity is cheating on the spouse or who shot who in Chicago. They’re actually worth watching.

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      Graeme No.3

      I think the change came when reporters stopped writing about what happened and started waffling about what might happen. It coincided with the switch to employing university graduates who thought they were smarter than the average person. Having spent 40+ years around factories, have I got news for them.

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      • #
        Roy Hogue

        All the way back to the 1960s I watched Walter Cronkite every evening and he always stuck to reporting. I don’t remember him ever editorializing a single word as he put out the news every night year after year. And yet once retired he turns out to be as left as you can get. So the change came along while the journalists still had the discipline to not mix reporting what was going on with personal views and politics. That changed big time with Obama. Here was a man promising to solve literally all the worlds problems. If you were a left handed ideologue why not jump on that bandwagon?

        What happened in our schools and universities added fuel to the fire but I think the problem was brewing long before the left had control of what’s taught in school.

        I daresay it started with the rise of the views of Karl Marx — who by the way, was right about one thing. He correctly saw that the competitive nature of the human race was the root cause of what he saw as trouble (and some of it certainly is). His failure was in believing that competitiveness could somehow be bred out of the human race if everyone was kept tightly controlled. It never worked. There are many examples for them to look at and actually see what happens and yet they still persist in their attempt to control society to eliminate all its built in evils. By now it should be obvious to everyone that you can’t do it that way.

        And along the way they begin to enjoy the power that comes with being in charge of everything. Thus they fall prey to the very problem they started out to solve.

        That’s the picture in the U.S. as I see it. I can’t speak for the rest of the world but it’s certainly a similar phenomenon.

        I don’t know of a single period in human history where the stronger did not try to control the weaker. The reasons and the means have changed but the phenomenon is the same.

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    john robertson

    Best cure for these delusional parasites.
    A pink slip and a loving message;”Get a job”.

    All these self selected experts and do-gooders have a commonality, they exist on the back of productive people, contributing very little and happy to destroy whatever they can.
    Blind worms gnawing at the foundations of society is a great description of these walking object lessons.

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    • #
      Graeme No.3

      john robertson:

      aren’t you assuming that they are employable? What as?

      Personally I think it would be dangerous to let these hordes loose on the streets. Perhaps the best answer would be to keep them there, but shut down the transmitters and cut off any travel expenses. It might make the inner cities more unbearable but they are used to it.

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        john robertson

        No I fully expect they will become welfare cheats and beggars.
        But both are more socially redeeming than what they are getting away with right now.

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    Steve McDonald

    It’s amazing how filthy rich some of these haters of capitalism really are.

    And why are they forever using every tactic their control freak minds can imagine to suck up every last last dollar from the poor.

    Gore, Kerry, Moore and Prince Charles are just a few examples of an endless line of hypocrites who have become richer end ever richer in democracies.

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      James Murphy

      Not to start dragging families into it, but Kevin Rudds wife made an absolute motza from the Liberal outsourcing of employment services, (and what a useless and shonky lot of businesses they are for the majority of their customers) but apparently that’s ok, because she’s a ‘successful businesswoman’, whereas an equally, if nor more successful businesswoman like Gina Rinehart is apparently evil personified.

      Who knows just how much money the various Labor party union hacks like Shorten managed to rack up over the years. As for that sanctimonious rat, Adam Bandt, I am pretty sure, that despite his passion for all things far-left, he doesn’t donate the vast majority of his very healthy pay packet (AU$195130/year – and that’s just for being an MP, let alone how much he gets paid by The Greens for doing thier bidding) to those who could actually use it.

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    TdeF

    “In ancient Greece, democracy was associated with the rule of demos – the common people”

    As long as you were a man, not a migrant, not a slave or a child of a slave or child of a migrant. About 10% of the population.

    Perhaps the right to vote should be restricted to the ABC who know everything, the opinionated classes utterly insulated from the real world. These are the unabashed promoters of the billion dollar a day global warming farce, the biggest waste of money in world history. Their fearless leader Mark Scott is paid above $750,000pa , twice the salary of the heads of the armed forces and much more than even the Prime Minister or the US President and clearly accountable to no one. Ancient Demos? Who needs it? The ABC believe they run the country or should. Of course they are underpaid too. In wonderful China they would be in jail for sedition. Sell the ABC.

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    diogenese2

    The level of the authors historical ignorance and the shallowness of his analysis can be encapsulated in one passage.
    “In ancient Greece democracy was associated with the rule of the ‘demos’ the common people”.
    A census of Attica by the TYRANT Demetrios in 315BC showed;
    20k citizens
    10k Metics ( resident aliens with no rights whatsoever)
    40k Slaves
    which puts “plutocracy ruled by moneyed interests” into some perspective.
    Churchill could easily be paraphrased as “the strongest argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with an average Member of Parliament”, my own experience endorses this and as for the “below average MP” there is no adequate descriptor.
    Churchill’s response to a REAL crisis, i.e. one recognised by the people, did not require that degree of authoritarianism.
    Roy Hogue @ #25 has nailed it. Stick with this theme – calling your electorate mindless cretins is a great PR strategy!
    These guys are jumping the shark and should be given every encouragement. As Napoleon said “never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake”.

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      sophocles

      Churchill also said

      Democracy is the worst form of government except all those others that have been tried.

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        Roy Hogue

        Sophocles,

        It’s that exception the haters of real democratic rule always miss. Any well functioning representative form of government leaves out the ones who want to be top dog. So of course they set to work to gain power by any means they can, here in the U.S., even by stealing elections. And they have their minions in place to do it again if they can.

        Only a well informed voter can prevent this problem and we simply neglect to teach our children their political asses from a hole in the ground and neglect to tell them the truth in their newspapers, TV and the Internet. Instead we tempt them with a free lunch.

        You have to convince a child early in life by teaching and by example that productive work is not only worthwhile but necessary to their continued prosperity and even their safety. And what have we been doing instead? There are other problems too, going back to slavery and even farther. But the solution will need to be the same regardless of the root cause, a well informed voter.

        I know it’s not that bad everywhere. But the situation is going downhill faster and faster.

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    handjive

    Albert Einstein, when told that 100 Nazi scientists had published a book rejecting his theory of special relativity, responded that a single paper would have sufficed to refute his hypothesis.
    His own single paper of 1905 on the electrodynamics of moving objects had demonstrated why Newton’s laws, till then universally accepted as true, incompletely described the motion of celestial objects.
    ~ ~ ~
    un-Skeptical Science, known for dressing up as nazis, show their true colours:

    It’s time to name and shame the climate obstructionists.
    Flood them with science!

    Here’s how you can help:

    1. Use the Climate Flood twitter bomb app to flood the accounts of climate deniers and obstructionists with one of the thousands of science research papers that support the human involvement in global warming.”
    . . .
    Maybe they could make “deniers” wear yellow stars.

    Only one paper is needed.

    But it doesn’t exist.

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      the Griss

      Its people like SkS and their hangers-on that make it necessary NOT to use easily identifiable real names.

      You never know what these low-life scumbags will try next.

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      handjive

      For a show of consensus, all the twitterers could just link one paper!

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    the Griss

    “Only one paper is needed.. But it doesn’t exist.”

    Just wanted to get it into big letters :-)

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    Peta

    The biggest failure of democracy: to get rid of the ABC.

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    Safetyguy66

    Well anyone with a memory knows this exact same debate happened when Howard decided to join the first Iraq war.

    The self declared intellectuals of the left and the green came out with their arguments that democracy wasn’t working and no one wanted to join a war. Blah Blah Blah.

    The simple fact is right now in human history, democracy is the best bad system we have. The others are even worse. Anyone who claims they know enough about life to run the show themselves, should be immediately sent off to the re-education (or is that re-humanisation camps). They will of course agree with this process because as dictators in waiting they will understand the importance of controlling everyones thoughts and behaviours.

    Basically the left is not intellectual, its deluded. Proof required? In the interview below Bruce Edgerton Assistant Manager Climate Change, Energy and Sustainability Policy Environment and Sustainable Development Directorate ACT Government (what a gravy train special of a job) proudly declares that Malthus was right all along and has been proven so. Forget for a moment that Malthus basically said we would have all starved by now… that’s just details… we are going to starve soon, Bruce has spoken.

    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/sundayextra/the-10-billion-population-question/5721602

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      handjive

      Quoting Safetyguy66:

      “Basically the left is not intellectual, its deluded. Proof required?

      In the interview below Bruce Edgerton Assistant Manager Climate Change, Energy and Sustainability Policy Environment and Sustainable Development Directorate ACT Government (what a gravy train special of a job) proudly declares that Malthus was right all along and has been proven so.”
      ~ ~ ~
      Wait a minute, Bruce Edgerton!

      Pre-Industrial Roots Of Modern Population Boom

      The foundation of the human population explosion, commonly attributed to a sudden surge in industrialisation and public health during the 18th and 19th centuries, was actually laid as far back as 2,000 years ago, suggests an extended model of detailed demographic and archaeological data.

      The Public Library of Science One (PLOS ONE) recently published the analytical framework developed by Aaron Stutz, an associate professor of anthropology at Emory University’s Oxford College.

      His analysis found that that the potential for the human population to burgeon despite environmental degradation, conflict and disease could be traced to a subtle interaction between competition and organisation.
      At a certain tipping point, this interaction created opportunities for individuals to gain more control over their lives and prosper, opening the door to economies of scale.

      Population dynamics have been a hot topic since 1798, when English scholar Thomas Robert Malthus published his controversial essay that population booms in times of plenty will inevitably be checked by famine and disease.

      “The power of population is indefinitely greater than the power in the earth to produce subsistence for man,” he wrote.

      The so-called Malthusian Catastrophe theory was penned just prior to the global census size reaching one billion.”

      http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/09/2014/pre-industrial-roots-of-modern-population-boom
      . . .
      Never think your science is settled.

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        Andrew Griffiths

        Good on you handjive , people like Bruce Edgerton are more chilling than a dip in in Lake Burley Griffin in July. Reminds me of the Eugenics movement popular in the 1920′s

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        sophocles

        Henry George refuted Malthus in his book Progress and Poverty.” [1879].

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      Andrew Griffiths

      My understanding is that the PAP ,founded by Lee Kwan Yew, is a democratically elected party that has never lost an election since the creation of an independent Singapore, was it in 1965? This party does not tolerate much in the way of dissent or protest,but has a pretty impressive record of delivering growth and prosperity. Politics, which is the art of compromise and conciliation, is one activity that can mitigate the tyranny of the majority which can be an unfortunate consequence of unchecked democracy.

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    the Griss

    “Is it democracy that is blocking progress on climate change or the current limited version of it that pervades Western society? “

    All one can say is…..

    GOOD !!!!

    Well done democracy.

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      gnome

      So misguided though.

      When I am appointed dictator of the world the wheels will really fall off the global warming bandwagon. They’re much better off under a democracy!

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  • #
    handjive

    Over at the home of totalitarians, the conversation …

    One comment displays the total failure of our education system:

    Dave Bradley
    logged in via email @yahoo.com.au

    “I think what Mr Sandford is saying is that the emissions debt is going to be repaid to us in Carbon as it settles in our lungs and raises the temperature of the planet instead of in money.”
    . . .
    They will let that comment stand, but delete others.

    A monument to ignorance.

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    • #
      Safetyguy66

      Carbon settles in our lungs?

      Is he a complete moron or just a partial moron confusing CO2 with particulate matter from emissions?

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      James Murphy

      well, here-in lies the problem, progressive erosion of education standards, the ‘everyone is a winner, no one is a loser’ mentality, and the increasing trend towards vocational training rather than a solid basis in the fundamentals of education (from which, anything should be possible, should anyone so desire it, and be capable of it), is reducing the overall capability for critical and objective thinking, initiative, and inquisitiveness.

      I don’t really think it’s a left vs right story either, because a dumb populace is an easy to manipulate populace, no matter the party in charge…

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  • #
    tom0mason

    Democracy and governance.

    Who here, or even in the wider public, has asked those very basic questions -
    What is government for?
    and if democratic then,
    How should democracy work?

    If these very basic questions are debated then democracy should be simple,
    governments should be smaller, and more accountable to the public.

    For the first question I leave that to you, but I ask should government be in every part of our lives, and if not what must go, how to remove it, and to who?

    For the second question I offer this as an untried method -

    A democratic vote should be 2 part -
    1. Who I wish to govern, a ‘for’ vote and
    2. Who I do not wish to see in govern, an ‘against’ vote.

    e.g
    A voting slip printed on both sides with the same names on both sides. One side printed black on white with the ‘for’ vote, the reverse printed white on black with the ‘against’ votes.
    The calculation is a simple tally of ‘for’ – ‘against’. All candidate not gaining 1/3 of total votes cast lose their deposit.
    This method has, as far as I am aware, never been tried. It would, I believe, clean out some dross from democratic systems.

    Also all parties elected to govern have 18 months to start 2/3 of the policies/pledges/promises as listed in their election madates. Failure to proceed means the government of the day is in default, and re-election process must start within 3 months.

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    • #
      Safetyguy66

      I think you just described Italy lol.

      30

      • #
        tom0mason

        I’m perfectly happy with the fact the Italians, like all democracies, get the government they deserve. And as often as they wish them.

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      Rolf

      There is another failure with democracy. We actually need to stop politicians from “spreading money” and promising at the election. We, the people, has to pay through taxes and this is really going on in Sweden right now. The people is grabbing into the treasury at the polls. So one way would be to stop governments from borrowing money AND set a roof on taxation. Then democracy might work, if the politicians are accountable for their actions. Of course the idea of following up the promises made within 18 month’s is good and I would like to add another one. Stop them from using lies. That would made it impossible for a certain Ju-lier to impose the carbon tax. There is also one more thing to avoid corruption, the old Swiss way with hands up on the square is not that a bad idea, adapted today we use internet to do the hands up and citizens has to be more active.

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      • #
        tom0mason

        Rolf

        “…adapted today we use internet to do the hands up and citizens has to be more active.”

        And there is the problem – how to make people more active.
        IMO if government was small, and more visible people would be more active. At the moment too many democracies pay-off the voter with a mixture of taxes (voters’ money) and borrowings, and that should not happen. Effectively they are putting the electorate to sleep until a catastrophe happens. That and the lobbying from all kind of single issue groups, and industries.
        A smaller government would make all this more apparent and easier for the public to demand better accountability.
        So often Big Government negligently loses it’s accountability in the spaghetti of bureaucratic processes.

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        • #
          Yonniestone

          A smaller government is absolutely needed, look at the increasing powers given to local Council’s in Australia in recent years and then look at the number of public complaints or dissatisfaction with their local authority, and they wanted to have a little referendum on the side during the last federal election asking if we wanted to give them more powers!

          I fear that the majority in Australia are already too scared or beaten to publically complain or protest about the erosion of democratic rights, instead you only see protests from the well organized left that is lapped up by a biased left wing MSM and wrongly portrayed as democracy in action.

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      • #
        ianl8888


        … if the politicians are accountable for their actions

        Therein is the rub

        Evading accountability is a prime motivation for the political class, as it can indulge its’ vanity with impunity – at least for a term or two

        Nor can I see how to improve this. The EC has evolved it into an art form, where EC officials do not even face occasional re-election, only the hurdle of initial appointment. Consequent to this, most European politicians aspire to an EC appointment – accurately considered by them as a job for life

        One hopes, perhaps forlornly, that this appalling idea does not take root in Aus

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    Terry Krieg

    Hey Oksana and Peter S, Get off Geoff Sherrington’s back! Peter, you obviously don’t care about CO2 emissions if you think coal is better than gas. Perhaps CO2 isn’t the big problem that most believe it is but many governments are legislating for RET’s Carbon taxes etc in an effort to reduce CO2 emissions. The trouble is, they’re forcing us all into prohibitively expensive renewables which are hopelessly inadequate anyway. If we want to maintain our standard of living continuing to have an affordable, safe, secure base load electricity supply without emissions, then nuclear is the answer.Now Oksana, if you’ve got worries about nuclear cost, safety, weapons proliferation [irrelevant in this debate], danger,etc then you need to answer this question. ” Why are 32 countries including Japan again continuing to generate nuclear power, 17 additional countries are building reactors as I write and at least 25 other countries are seriously considering including nuclear in their energy mix. The answer should be fairly obvious.If you’d like some up to date accurate information on nuclear, then log onto:www.abc.net.au/rn/ockhamsrazor and check my four nuclear talks given on 4/9/2011, 15/1/2012, 10/3/2013 and 9/2/2014. Go on. Do it!
    cheers
    Terry Krieg

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  • #

    I am confused. The ABC is to blame because it published an opinion pieces by a University Academic? I think you should read the editorial statements regarding the drum and

    He could have published that elsewhere.

    And here is another article on the ABC’s drum

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-09/berg-romanticising-reform-weve-set-the-bar-too-high/5729450

    You just can’t get this sort of multistory nonsense for free. It takes a lot of tax dollars to pack this much ignorance and blindness into one article.

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    handjive

    Democracy?

    History will record that the largest criminal organisation in Australia was protected by the first woman prime minister of Australia.

    This is going to be a big month for Julia Gillard’s reputation.

    Starting as early as Tuesday, she is likely to be called as a witness by the Royal Commission into Union Corruption.
    Then, on September 24, her political memoir will be launched.

    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/comment/two-shades-of-limelight-for-julia-gillard-with-royal-commission-and-memoir-launch-20140907-10dljw.html
    . . .

    Congratulations to Michael Smith.
    http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2014/09/a-few-media-culprits-who-tried-to-help-julia-gillard-conceal-the-awu-fraud-in-particular-ray-hadley.html#comments

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    pat

    rhetoric pales into significance compared with facts on the ground:

    5 Sept: Alternet: Anna Simonton: Cashing In On Carbon: How Taxpayer Dollars Greenwash Dirty Energy
    But as early as next summer, this ghost town 16 miles southwest of Odessa (Texas) will become the site of a new coal power plant facility––funded in large part by taxpayers––that could play a major role in not only helping prolong the life of a dying coal industry, but in fueling an oil boom that’s just getting started in the Permian Basin region of West Texas…
    TCEP is one of four U.S. power plants in the planning stages that would use Carbon Capture and Sequestration technology, which comes with an unproven track record and an exorbitant price tag for taxpayers…not to mention the impacts of mining the coal in the first place. A fifth such plant is already under construction in Mississippi…
    Rather than diverting CO2 emissions into permanent storage as the technology’s name implies (a risky venture in its own right), four out of the five plants would repurpose the captured gas for use in oil extraction — that is, to help extract more carbon out of the ground. Petroleum companies in Texas are lining up to buy Summit’s CO2 and inject it into declining oil fields where it will act as a lubricant and a source of pressure, forcing more oil to flow into the wells there…
    But the biggest financial supporters of CO2-EOR are taxpayers. Since 2008, Congress has allocated $6 billion to research and development of Carbon Capture and Sequestration technologies…
    http://www.alternet.org/environment/cashing-carbon-how-taxpayer-dollars-greenwash-dirty-energy

    meanwhile, ABC is still in awe of Obama & his CAGW rhetoric:

    5 Sept: ABC: Matt Wordsworth: US believes climate change will be on G20 table
    US Consul General Hugo Llorens says he expects G20 to focus on achieving economic growth but believes issues such as climate change will be part of the talks.
    MATT WORDSWORTH: Just before we get to the substance, is President Obama bringing Michelle Obama?
    HUGO LLORENS: I am not aware yet. It’s not confirmed.
    MATT WORDSWORTH: Not confirmed but it’s a possibility?
    HUGO LLORENS: It’s always a possibility, yes…
    MATT WORDSWORTH: Does President Obama want to discuss climate change at this conference?
    HUGO LLORENS: You know I think climate change is an issue that will be on the table, but it will be on the table in a way this it works for all of the Governments.
    MATT WORDSWORTH: Because he’s made what seems to be quite a serious announcement of a climate accord or he’s seeking a climate accord according to the New York Times last week. It’s going to be something he wants to take to the UN next year. So will it come through G20 first?
    HUGO LLORENS: No no you know G20 is mostly, you know, macroeconomic financial.
    MATT WORDSWORTH: Won’t be discussed?
    HUGO LLORENS: Climate change may be discussed in some way. But you know, that’s for kind of the Ministers and the Leaders to work out, exactly in what manner. But it will certainly be on the table as an issue that is relevant but it’s not a core issue…
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-05/us-believes-climate-change-will-be-on-g20-table/5724148?section=qld

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    pat

    lots more figures & detail at the link:

    8 Sept: Yale: David Biello: Can Carbon Capture Technology
    Be Part of the Climate Solution?
    Some scientists and analysts are touting carbon capture and storage as a necessary tool for avoiding catastrophic climate change. But critics of the technology regard it as simply another way of perpetuating a reliance on fossil fuels…
    The Mississippi project uses emissions from burning a fossil fuel to help bring more fossil fuels out of the ground — a less than ideal solution to the problem of climate change. But enhanced oil recovery may prove an important step in making more widely available a technology that could be critical for combating climate change — CO2 capture and storage, or CCS.

    ***As the use of coal continues to grow globally — coal consumption is expected to double from 2000 to 2020 largely due to demand in China and India — some scientists believe the widespread adoption of CCS technology could be key to any hope of limiting global average temperature increase to 2 degrees Celsius, the threshold for avoiding major climate disruption. After all, coal is the dirtiest fossil fuel…

    “Fossil fuels aren’t disappearing anytime soon,” says John Thompson, director of the Fossil Fuel Transition Project for the non-profit Clean Air Task Force…
    The biggest challenge is one of scale, as the potential demand from aging oil fields for CO2 produced from coal-fired power plants is enormous…
    “In the short term, in order to develop the technology, we probably will enable more use of hydrocarbons, which makes environmentally conscious people uncomfortable,” says Chris Jones, a chemical engineer working on CO2 capture at the Georgia Institute of Technology. “But it’s a necessary thing we have to do to get the technology out there and learn how to make it more efficient.”…
    Yet, from 2007 to 2013, global coal consumption increased from 6.4 billion to 7.4 billion metric tons, and coal use continues to rise…
    Still, the economic and technological challenges facing CCS are daunting. Much-heralded projects like the CO2 capture and storage demonstration at the Mountaineer Power Plant in West Virginia were abandoned because no one wanted to pay for it…
    ***A price on CO2, if high enough, might make capturing the greenhouse gas look cheap…
    In the end, getting off fossil fuels entirely is the only way to control CO2 pollution. But until that happens, CCS could be vital to stave off catastrophic climate change. “Ultimately, we need a thermostat on this planet,” says Klaus Lackner, a Columbia University physicist who is working on pulling the greenhouse gas directly out of the air rather than capturing it from smokestacks. “And we need to control the CO2.”
    http://e360.yale.edu/feature/can_carbon_capture_technology_be_part_of_the_climate_solution/2800/

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  • #

    The strongest argument against Science By Majority Opinion (Oreskeology, or Consensus Science) is a five-minute discussion with the average climate scientist.

    Followed by the scientific method in close second place.

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    Ray Derrick

    With regard to Geoff Sherrington’s remarks about nuclear power, there does appear to be a form of nuclear power generation that is safe, in that it cannot get out of control and cause environmental catastrophe, and it seems the Chinese are one of the countries working at the coalface (so to speak) in developing this alternative technology:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100026863/china-going-for-broke-on-thorium-nuclear-power-and-good-luck-to-them/

    Should they be successful in getting this technology up and running, I am wondering whether the greens will embrace it or demonize it. I think already know the answer to that.

    30

    • #
      Eliza Doodle

      The Chinese are one country that can afford to invest in such research, with an abundant population not wasting their wealth on useless windmills nor squandering on solar panels, which the Chinese are only too happy to make and sell to gullible governments.

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  • #

    (Apologies if I wasn’t the first commenter to notice the irony of Ms Oreskes’ zeal for democracy in science combined with her hatred of democracy in… well, democracies.)

    50

  • #
    Mattb

    It does appear, Jo, that you unashamedly support the thesis that “Democracy (is) hurting our climate response”.

    05

    • #
      the Griss

      Thank goodness for Democracy. !

      The sooner a total block is put on the idiotic “climate response” of the AGW cultists, the better.

      That’s why WE voted the Liberals in. (WE = the Australian people)

      And so far so good.. next the RET will be gone, with any luck ! :-)

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    • #
      Greg Cavanagh

      To believe that “Democracy (is) hurting our climate response”, you would also have to believe:
      1. A climate response could do anything about the climate.
      2. That the cost (and action) of the response was ultimately in societies best interest.
      3. That the 46% (or greater) of people who don’t believe that Climate Change is an issue, are wrong.
      4. That you are right in your belief and that those 46% (or greater) should not have a say.

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  • #
    pat

    8 Sept: Digital Journal: Press Release: About Face! New Book Claims World Needs More Carbon Dioxide; Exposing ‘Failed Science’ of Global Warming
    A unique collaboration between America’s Arthur Middleton Hughes, Canada’s Madhav Kandekar and Australia’s Cliff Ollier, ‘About Face! Why the World Needs More Carbon Dioxide’ could save the lives of three million people each year.
    Bucking the trend of popular Global Warming activists, the trio urges the world to increase CO2 levels to allow more plants to grow and combat rising levels of malnutrition…
    According to Arthur Middleton Hughes, Madhav Kandekar and Cliff Ollier, the argument that greenhouse gasses produce warming of the earth is not only misleading, but potentially killing millions of people each year. With CO2 levels increasing and no rising of the earth’s temperature in sight, the trio have collaborated on a unique literary project that argues why the world needs more Carbon Dioxide…
    “Everything is within our control; but most don’t see it due to Governmental corruption. For example, the EPA will end up spending $300 Billion replacing the coal plants that they have ordered to shut down. 100,000 people are employed in this sector and the coal industry is vital to our economy. It doesn’t affect global CO2 levels anyway as coal plants are springing up rapidly in China and India. At the end of the day; it’s a smokescreen,” Hughes adds…
    ‘About Face! Why the World Needs More Carbon Dioxide’ is due for imminent release.
    http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/2171822

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  • #
    pat

    re “About Face! New Book Claims World Needs More Carbon Dioxide; Exposing ‘Failed Science’ of Global Warming”

    “distinguished professor” says “we need to prevent regions in Africa that are rich in carbon and biodiversity from being cleared for agriculture to avoid increasing emissions”. LOL.

    8 Sept: Phys.org: Natalie Van Hoose: Agricultural revolution in Africa could increase global carbon emissions
    Productivity-boosting agricultural innovations in Africa could lead to an increase in global deforestation rates and carbon emissions, a Purdue University study finds.
    Historically, improvements in agricultural technology have conserved land and decreased carbon emissions at the global level: Gaining better yields in one area lessens the need to clear other areas for crops, sidestepping a land conversion process that can significantly raise the amount of carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere.
    Agricultural advances in Africa, however, could have the reverse effect, increasing globally the amount of undeveloped land converted to cropland and raising greenhouse gas emissions, said Thomas Hertel, a ***distinguished professor of agricultural economics…
    In an integrated world markets scenario, the researchers’ analysis showed that ramping up agricultural productivity in Africa over the years 2025-2050 could increase global cropland expansion by 1.8 million hectares (4.4 million acres) and global carbon emissions by 267 million metric tons…
    But the potential negative effects of an African green revolution will diminish over time, Hertel said. If sustained over several decades, agricultural innovation in Africa would eventually conserve land and decrease carbon emissions, especially if yields improved quickly. The most carbon-rich land, however, should be immediately protected from conversion to cropland, he said.
    “We need to prevent regions in Africa that are rich in carbon and biodiversity from being cleared for agriculture to avoid increasing emissions,” he said…
    http://phys.org/news/2014-09-agricultural-revolution-africa-global-carbon.html

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  • #
    pat

    MSM CAGW scary story of the day. such precision! much to note:

    8 Sept: WaPo: Darryl Fears: Bye bye, birdie: Study says warming may force orioles, eagles from D.C. region
    By the turn of the century, global warming will threaten the survival of more than half of all species of birds in the United States and Canada, a new report says…
    Of the 588 species studied,126 species will experience severe declines as soon as 2050, as half of their range, the sprawling areas they inhabit in summer and winter, becomes unsuitable because of increased dryness caused by warming.
    An additional 188 species could greatly decline by 2080 if the pace of greenhouse gas emissions continues unabated. More than 90 percent of the world’s climate scientists agree that emissions from human activity are causing the planet to warm at an accelerated pace.
    ***The report, released Monday by the National Audubon Society, a nonprofit group that advocates for birds, was commissioned by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, which provided a portion of its funding…
    ***But the report has a key blind spot. It cannot reliably say that many of the species it lists as threatened and endangered by climate change will not simply adapt in their current habitat, or thrive elsewhere.
    John W. Fitzpatrick, executive director of the Cornell Lab of Ornithology, the nation’s premiere center for the study of bird conservation, called the report “a wake-up call.” But, he said, there are too many variables to definitively forecast a future for birds. “The uncertainty involved in this exercise is prodigious” because so many factors are involved.
    ***“The word tricky is an understatement,” he said. “I suspect that all the individuals involved in the modeling would admit this is taking a few variables alone and seeing what they say. This can’t be viewed as the end of the story.”…
    ***The report took over seven years to complete…
    ***The report also also used a computer algorithm known for its ability to detect the complex relationship between animals and seasons within a habitat…
    ***“It was really important to let the birds tell us how it would affect them based on where they are now,” Langham said…
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/bye-bye-birdie-study-says-warming-might-force-orioles-eagles-from-baltimore-and-dc/2014/09/08/1c2fcf64-36ff-11e4-8601-97ba88884ffd_story.html

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    • #
      the Griss

      “global warming will threaten the survival of more than half of all species of birds in the United States and Canada”

      It already is.. in the form of Wind turbines and solar concentrating non-energy providing avian wildlife destructors.

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    ***“It was really important to let the birds tell us how it would affect them based on where they are now,” Langham said…

    Ah yes, Gary Langham, son of Doctor Dolittle.

    There we were, sitting in the conservatory, and my good friend Benny the Bald Eagle was sipping his Scotch through a straw in the corner of his beak, looking wistfully at the ceiling, as we discussed the situation. He leaned forward and pointed the tip of his cigar in my direction, suddenly serious now, saying … “you know Gary, you really need to get onto these people, and close those damned Power Plants down. They’re just killing us. Otherwise, we’ll just bugger off somewhere else. Then, what’ll all you twitchers do, eh!”

    Tony.

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  • #
    Streetcred

    The failure of Democracy is to allow the socialists / communists a voice ;)

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  • #
    JohnB

    “How annoying that they have to fight elections for their cause
    The inconvenience, having to get a majority
    If normal methods of persuasion fail to win them applause
    There are other ways of establishing authority”

    Che. Evita.

    Says it all really. ;)

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  • #
    pat

    lunatics!

    9 Sept: Guardian: Melissa Davey: Research shows surprise global warming ‘hiatus’ could have been forecast
    Australian and US climate experts say with new ocean-based modelling tools, the early 2000s warming slowdown was foreseeable
    Gerald Meehl, a senior scientist at the National Centre for Atmospheric Research in the US, along with the Centre for Australian Weather and Climate Research in Melbourne, decided to challenge the assumption that no climate model could have foreseen the hiatus…
    While Meehl said all the factors that might be driving the hiatus were still being studied, his research, published in the journal Nature Climate Change, suggested natural decade-to-decade climate variability was largely responsible…
    Professor Matthew England, the deputy director of the climate change research centre at the University of New South Wales, said the study was important because it revealed initialised climate models could have predicted the recent slowdown in surface atmospheric warming.
    “This gives us confidence in the skill of these models for longer-term climate projections, as they appear to be able to capture the interplay between decadal variability and long-term warming,” he said
    “Like a weather prediction system, the models just need appropriate initial conditions, and then their skill on the decadal time-scale comes through.”
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/sep/09/research-global-warming-hiatus

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    • #
      ianl8888


      … initialised climate models …

      England et al have previously, and often, argued that initialising GCM’s was impossible. Judith Curry’s website has run quite a few very long threads on exactly this issue, wherein the AGW “consensus” was that initilisation was too complex as all current conditions at the time of initilisation could not be parametised due to not being known

      Now, magically, this is no longer a problem and the pause is post-hoc predicted … voila :)

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    • #
      Lord Jim

      : Research shows surprise global warming ‘hiatus’ could have been forecast

      This just reeks of desperation.

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    • #
      Tim

      So if their wonderful ‘modelling tools’ forecast the Hiatus; why did they then continue with the propaganda? Hmmm?

      10

    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Melissa Davey: Research shows surprise global warming ‘hiatus’ could have been forecast

      Ain’t hindsight wonderful?

      Numbskulls!

      More research, more research, more research… …they probably looked for something on the wall in some restroom. It would certainly be as believable. :-(

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    pat

    it was INEVITABLE the smearing of Modi would begin, once it was announced he would not be flying to New York for yet another Summit full of NGOs.

    here it is…including how he used to be a believer.

    so what, Suzanne? so was i and many other CAGW sceptics i know, until the scam was exposed:

    9 Sept: Guardian: Suzanne Goldenberg: Is Narendra Modi a climate sceptic?
    India’s PM used to call climate action a moral duty, now he tells students ‘climate has not changed, we have changed’
    India’s prime minister, Narendra Modi, reportedly will be a no-show at the United Nations climate summit this month. Could it be because he does not accept the science behind climate change?
    Modi used to be a supporter for climate action. But in public remarks on two occasions in the last week, the leader of one of the fastest growing – and biggest emitting – economies appeared to express doubt about whether climate change was even occurring.
    “Climate has not changed. We have changed. Our habits have changed. Our habits have got spoiled. Due to that, we have destroyed our entire environment,” the rightwing leader told students in a video Q&A, according to India Today on Friday.
    Modi was also vague on global warming and its causes in an interview with The Hindu a few days earlier.
    “Climate change? Is this terminology correct? The reality is this that in our family, some people are old … They say this time the weather is colder. And, people’s ability to bear cold becomes less,” he said.
    “We should also ask is this climate change or have we changed. We have battled against nature. That is why we should live with nature rather than battle it,” he said…
    But the real problem could be the fast rising pace of India’s emissions. In the past few months, the other giant emitters – China and America – have taken steps to reduce carbon pollution.

    ???Projections from the Energy Information Administration show China’s emissions could start levelling off in 2030. India’s? They are due to rise by 60% between 2020 and 2040.

    That could put Modi under some pressure on 23 September when the United Nations secretary general Ban Ki-moon convenes his climate summit of world leaders.
    So while Modi has created confusion about his views on climate change, one thing seems clear: he does not want to have a conversation about what India plans to do about it.
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/sep/09/narendra-modi-india-prime-minister-climate-change-sceptic

    ???what a joker u are, Suzanne.

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    pat

    and the temps???

    9 Sept: Bloomberg: Chisaki Watanabe: Greenhouse Gas Surge to Impact Atmosphere and Oceans, WMO Says
    Concentrations in the atmosphere of greenhouse gases reached a record in 2013, raising concerns that ocean acidity is increasing at worrying rates.
    Carbon dioxide rose to 396 parts per million molecules of air, the UN World Meteorological Organization said today in an e-mailed bulletin. Atmospheric CO2 levels rose 2.9 parts per million from the previous year, the largest annual increase since 1984, according to the report.
    “We know without any doubt that our climate is changing and our weather is becoming more extreme due to human activities such as the burning of fossil fuels,” WMO Secretary-General Michel Jarraud said in the statement…
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-09/greenhouse-gas-surge-to-impact-atmosphere-and-oceans-wmo-says.html

    doubling down!

    9 Sept: Bloomberg/Businessweek: Matthew Carr: World Bank to Expand Plan to Buy Emission Project Credits
    The World Bank seeks to expand a plan to buy emission credits from projects including those that capture heat-trapping gas at garbage dumps, underpinning demand in the carbon markets for the first time in nine years.
    The proposal would initially use options to help spur about $100 million in government donations to a World Bank methane-reducing facility, according to a bank consultation document obtained by Bloomberg News and confirmed as genuine by Robert Bisset, a spokesman for the lender in Washington. The program is designed to create more emission reductions for each dollar spent because only projects offering to cut for the lowest prices would win access to its money, the document shows…
    “It’s a good idea, because the incentive is missing in today’s market,” said Marten von Velsen-Zerweck, managing partner at Nserve GmbH, a developer of credits in Hamburg. “The challenge is to expand the model to cover other types of projects,” he said Sept. 2 by phone.
    The bank and the U.S. State Department are among those working to expand the planned program. “Several potential donors have come forward to express interest to contribute,”according to the document…
    “This facility will pioneer an innovative climate finance model with great potential to support low-carbon investment in ways that provide better value and lower risk for the taxpayer,” the department said in an e-mailed response to questions…
    Private developers of carbon credits would need to bid for put options to sell to the facility under the plan, driving down the level of subsidy paid by governments, according to the World Bank document. Put options give the holder the right to sell at a certain strike price, but not the obligation.
    Only projects willing to sell for the lowest strike prices would win access, the document dated June shows…
    The document shows examples with a strike price of $5 a metric ton and a premium for the put option of 30 cents a ton.
    UN Certified Emission Reductions for December slipped to a record 8 euro cents ($0.13) a metric ton in May. They fell 6.3 percent Sept. 5 to close at 15 euro cents a ton on ICE Futures Europe in London…
    ***The Washington-based bank had planned its first auction as early as this year. That’s been reconsidered, it said by e-mail…
    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-09-09/world-bank-to-expand-plan-to-buy-emission-project-credits

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      the Griss

      “Carbon dioxide rose to 396 parts per million molecules of air”

      Darn, we need to do MUCH more.

      It needs to be at least double that.

      Catch the methane, by all means .. Then burn it to produce CO2 for the atmosphere. :-)

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    pat

    haha…

    9 Sept: FirstPost: AP: Schwarzenegger makes rare political appearance to fight climate change
    Sacramento, California: Arnold Schwarzenegger made a rare political appearance on Monday to promote California’s fight against climate change and to unveil his official portrait as governor…
    “While the politicians in Washington can’t get anything done because of being stuck in these ideological foxholes, we here in California have two governors from two different parties, together in the same room fighting for the same green energy future,” Schwarzenegger said at the summit.
    Organizers are using the state’s policies on the issue to prompt further action ahead of United Nations climate-change conferences in Peru and Paris…
    Monday’s gathering featured research experts, businesses executives from Apple Inc. and UPS Inc., as well as actor-activist Ed Begley Jr…
    As governor, Schwarzenegger had promised to bring fiscal accountability, but the state faced a huge budget deficit when he left office. Brown has been credited with passing a tax increase, cutting services and bringing the budget back in balance…
    http://www.firstpost.com/world/schwarzenegger-makes-rare-political-appearance-fight-climate-change-1703503.html

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    • #
      Roy Hogue

      All Brown is going to end up being credited with is presiding over the ruin of the Golden State.

      Schwarzenegger began as a hard nosed reformer but when he got disapproval for what he started to do he overnight became a hard left spendthrift. It was amazing to watch. He never did anything but play to the grandstand, bless his little heart. I wonder if his portrait will have a face pointing right and one pointing left like Janus of Roman mythology.

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  • #
    bemused

    Here’s a good one: http://skepticalscience.com/nsh/. I know it’s not quite the right spot, but it’s the only current article to place it in.

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    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Nice graphic at http://skepticalscience.com/nsh/. Now if I only understood what it’s supposed to mean. But at least there’s a little animation to go along with the total ambiguity of the picture. So happily it wasn’t quite a total waste of my time. :-)

      Come to think of it, isn’t skepticalscience always kind of ambiguous, always trying to look like one thing while being another? :-(

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    pat

    ***at least the Beeb points out the contradiction – read it all:

    9 Sept: BBC: Matt McGrath: Greenhouse gas levels rising at fastest rate since 1984
    The World Meteorological Organisation (WMO) says that it highlights the need for a global climate treaty.
    But the UK’s energy secretary Ed Davey said that any such agreement might not contain legally binding emissions cuts, as has been previously envisaged…
    Atmospheric CO2 is now at 142% of the levels in 1750, before the start of the industrial revolution.
    ***However, global average temperatures have not risen in concert with the sustained growth in CO2, leading to many voices claiming that global warming has paused.
    “The climate system is not linear, it is not straightforward. It is not necessarily reflected in the temperature in the atmosphere, but if you look at the temperature profile in the ocean, the heat is going in the oceans,” said Oksana Tarasova, chief of the atmospheric research division at the WMO…
    The bulletin suggests that in 2013, the increase in CO2 was due not only to increased emissions but also to a reduced carbon uptake by the Earth’s biosphere.
    The scientists at the WMO are puzzled by this development…
    “In 2013 there are no obvious impacts on the biosphere so it is more worrying,” said Oksana Tarasova.
    “We don’t understand if this is temporary or if it is a permanent state, and we are a bit worried about that.”
    “It could be that the biosphere is at its limit but we cannot tell that at the moment.”…
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29115845

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    pat

    more alarmist verson!

    9 Sept: PittsburghPost-Gazette: from WaPo: Rise in greenhouse gases spurs fears over climate
    by Joby Warrick
    Levels of heat-trapping carbon dioxide in the atmosphere rose at a record-shattering pace last year, a new report shows, a surge that surprised scientists and spurred fears of an accelerated warming of the planet in decades to come…
    The new figures for carbon dioxide were particularly surprising, showing the biggest year-over-year increase since detailed records were first compiled in the 1980s, Ms. Tarasova said in an interview. The jump of nearly three parts per million over 2012 levels was twice as large as the average increase in carbon levels in recent decades, she said.
    “The changes we’re seeing are really drastic,” Ms. Tarasova said. “We are seeing the growth rate rising exponentially.”
    The organization’s annual report on greenhouse gas levels was released ahead of a climate summit of world leaders at this year’s U.N. General Assembly meetings in New York…
    ***“It’s the level that climate scientists have identified as the beginning of the danger zone,” said Michael Oppenheimer, a Princeton University professor of geosciences who was not involved in the WMO report. “It means we’re probably getting to the point where we’re looking at the ‘safe zone’ in the rearview mirror, even as we’re stepping on the gas.”…
    http://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2014/09/09/CO2-rising-at-much-faster-rate-report-finds/stories/201409090109

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    • #
      the Griss

      “Levels of heat-trapping plant feeding carbon dioxide in the atmosphere rose at a record-shattering pace last year,”

      Man, that is really great news.. :-)

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      • #
        Roy Hogue

        Looking at that in the way we’re supposed to see it brings up the obvious question — where is the heat all that CO2 traps?

        Oops! No sign of it to be found.

        I remember CRU was asking where the heat was when their fan began flinging stuff in all directions. :-(

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    Jaymez

    According to the recent US Senate Report on Climate change, humans exhale CO2 at a rate of approximately 40,000 parts per million (ppm). Humans inhale CO2 at the rate it currently exists in the atmosphere, which is just below 400 ppm. So we are increasing the CO2 content of every breath of air by 10,000%. There are 7 billion people on the Earth so how long will it be before The Greens start suggesting a cull?

    Do you think a carbon tax would encourage you to breathe less?

    What about an emissions trading scheme so you can buy credits in case you wanted to go for a run or do anything strenuous requiring more breaths?

    Or maybe like the Movie ‘In Time’ the rich can live forever because they can buy as many credits as they want, while the elite control the issuing of credits, while the poor die young?

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    • #
      ROM

      Jaymez @ # 58

      Way back in 2011 when the CAGW meme was still in full flight albeit deflating rapidly as the roll on effects of Climate Gate and the Copenhagen debacle took their toll on what was already well on the way to becoming a CAGW cadaver, Lubos Motl the Czech string theory physicist who runs his Reference Frame blog, included some normal everyday CO2 concentration data that occurs in everybody’s natural, everyday surrounds like kitchens and etc.

      You might like to quote these CO2 numbers back at your fervent believers in the dangers of that new dread of the totally ignorant climate catastrophe faithful , that Fifth modern Horseman of the Apocalypse,” that deadly “carbon” which the climate catastrophe faithful in their complete and profound ignorance can now add to the very old biblical “Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse” whose names are War, Famine, Conquest, and Death.

      The title for Motl’s post if you want to google it is;

      iMatter: Your house is uninhabitable for most species
      ___________________
      To quote ;

      It may be useful to summarize some important values of the CO2 concentration:

      150 ppm – the minimum concentration below which many plants may face problems to run photosynthesis and stop growing

      180 ppm – the concentration during ice ages

      280 ppm – the concentration during interglacials, i.e. also the pre-industrial concentration around 1750

      391 ppm – the concentration today

      500 ppm – the concentration around 2060-2070 (unlikely that before 2050 as they claim)

      560 ppm – the concentration around 2080-2110 (the “doubled CO2″ relatively to the pre-industrial values) relevant for the calculations of climate sensitivity); a concentration routinely found outdoors today

      700 ppm – the concentration in an average living room

      900 ppm – concentration in an average kitchen

      1,270 ppm – the concentration used to double the growth of Cowpea in a famous video

      1,700 ppm – the average concentration in the Cretaceous 145-65 million years ago (early mammals came, plus figs, magnolias, birds, modern sharks)

      4,500 ppm – the concentration 444-416 million years ago (the Silurian dominated by corals and mosses); see other values in geological epochs

      10,000 ppm – sensitive people start to feel weaker

      40,000 ppm – the concentration of CO2 in the air we breath out

      50,000 ppm – toxic levels at which the animals like us get weaker in hours; the value is 5 percent of the volume

      180,000 ppm – the concentration of CO2 in exhausts of a healthy motor; that’s 18 percent

      1,000,000 ppm – pure CO2, just to make you sure what the units are

      The warming induced by the increase from 391 ppm to 500 ppm is smaller (by about 20%) – because of the logarithmic law – than the warming by the same 109 ppm between 282 ppm and 391 ppm which was about 0.7 °C and pretty much unnoticeable without accurate gadgets and contrived statistical methods.

      [ / ]

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    Sunray

    Thank you Jo, I remember a funny skit by John Clease & Co with gowned up “experts” in the labour ward being given their tasks, when the expectant mother asks what her task is, to which Clease replys – “nothing madam, you are not qualified!”.It seems strangely appropriate in this case.

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  • #
    William Astley

    The steady decline of Western Civilization is due to a loss of competitiveness caused by ‘structural’ problems, massive government debits, and quantitative easing. (See Greece, Spain, and Italy for a preview of what to expect.)

    Socialism works fine until one runs out of other people’s money to spend.

    Naomi Orsekes’ world view is part of the problem, not the solution.

    http://www.economist.com/news/books-and-arts/21577348-gloomy-convincing-account-developed-worlds-problems-horror-story
    When the Money Runs Out: The End of Western Affluence. By Stephen King. Yale University Press
    “That is a problem because people in the rich world have grown accustomed to rising standards of living and governments have promised them benefits that may not be affordable. Some countries are struggling to pay those benefits as well as service the debts they owe to foreign bondholders. …
    …Governments and central banks have reacted to the post-2007 debt crisis by letting budget deficits soar and allowing interest rates to drop to nearly zero. This may have prevented the recession from turning into a repeat of the Great Depression. But in the process, the role of central banks has become highly political.”

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    JBirks

    Western Civilization will be fine. It’s survived more threatening lunacy and rank idiocy than AGW. What it may not survive is the dictatorial machinations we’ve seen in the US and elsewhere to weaken national sovereignty in service and pursuit of global governance. AGW is just one of the clubs in the bag; once that becomes untenable (and it’s becoming less viable every day) we’ll see another, and another. Only through constant vigilance will the totalitarian movements succumb.

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