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Unthreaded — Weekend July 7th 2012

Keep talking…

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Unthreaded -- Weekend July 7th 2012, 6.1 out of 10 based on 23 ratings

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150 comments to Unthreaded — Weekend July 7th 2012

  • #

    A reminder: Water reigns supreme in determining the climate
    A recently-published paper in JOURNAL OF GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH showing that clouds are a strong negative feedback points back to an earlier discussion by Clive Best.

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    • #
      Joe's World

      …And ALL other factors such as rotation, planet shape, velocity differences, planetary tilting, the sun, our atmosphere, ocean salt changes, gases, liquids and solids differences, etc. mean absolutely nothing and should as always be neglected to be included.
      After all, only manipulated temperature matters in climate models…

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      • #

        Alarmist environmentalism, political correct thinking, and post-normal science reflect the secret fear-driven plot by world leaders to save themselves and society from the threat of “nuclear fires” that consumes Hiroshima and Nagasaki on 6 and 9 Aug 1945, respectively.

        For about sixty-four (~64) years, world leaders worked out-of-sight to: Avoid nuclear warfare, unite nations, reduce nationalism and racism at the expense of

        a.) Veracity on the energy that sustains our life, and
        b.) Civilian control over our respective governments.

        Climategate emails and the responses of world leaders exposed this plot to return totalitarian control of mankind in Nov 2009.

        Summary http://omanuel.wordpress.com/about/

        1543: The Rise of Reason and Human Dignity
        1945: The Return of Dogmatic Totalitarianism

        With kind regards,
        Oliver K. Manuel
        Former NASA Principal
        Investigator for Apollo
        http://www.omatumr.com

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    • #
      KinkyKeith

      A very good start to this thread Bernd.

      All the physics says that.

      It is only when you hide this fact, that you can make the tiny human contribtion of CO2 stand out.

      This has always ben the Big Lie; that CO2 is somehow the only gas that transfers energy – heat flow in the atmosphere.

      :)

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      • #
        Bob Malloy

        Not sure I like your new look KK. :-|

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        • #
          KinkyKeith

          I have been feeling a bit blue lately Bob but I think someone fixed it.

          Was due to using another computer and putting in the wrong email address.

          :)

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          • #
            Bob Malloy

            You mean like this?

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          • #
            KinkyKeith

            While I was feeling blue I tried to find the icon changer? How do you insert a photo?

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          • #
            Joe V.

            KK,
            While I may do this with some trepidation , all you need to attach your favourite image(s) to your posts automatically across the Web is sign up for a

            Gravatar

            Enter the E-mail address you want to use and it’ll send you a link to sign-up and then you can begin adding your own gallery.

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          • #
            KinkyKeith

            Thanks Joe

            Will do.

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  • #
    Joe's World

    Clouds do play an important role in reflecting sunlight back as it is a very different density than our atmospheric gases.
    Clouds NEVER cross the equator due to the velocity of our planet is too great.
    http://jonova.s3.amazonaws.com/guest/lalonde-joe/world-calculations.pdf
    http://jonova.s3.amazonaws.com/guest/lalonde-joe/world-calculations-2.pdf

    Salt changes have added an interesting twist of changing our precipitation patterns by becoming more fresh in the higher latitudes and more dense in the equatorial regions. This effects the evaporation of our oceans.
    http://www-pord.ucsd.edu/~ltalley/sio219/curryetal_nature2003.pdf

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  • #

    Some synonyms for warmists:
    [all may be true but insults without substantiation don't contribute. - Jo]

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    • #

      Ok Jo, of course my feelings are a bit hurt, no doubt, as my goal has been only to contribute helpful comments, to help enhance our capacity to argue our case. Anyway, sorry for that particular post of mine. I hope this one is allowed, though, as this will represent my effort at a defense of my comment. Unfortunately, I’ll have to repeat some of the synonyms I used in order to make that defense. But also, now I know that on your site I should try to keep it low key to an extent, to tone down the controversy. So I get that.
      Now, if you gave a list of the specific synonyms I used that you found objectionable or unsubstantiated, I could respond to those cases. But, lacking that, I’ll just defend a handful of them (but many are similar, and are groupable as far as justifying them).
      To start, note that the warmists call us Climate Deniers and that is never stricken. Anyway, most of the synonyms I give, with limited exception, are used by the commenters or bloggers here and elsewhere without objection. My point was to give a short reference of synonyms for those that are writing something and in search of a term for our opponents (I would say “enemies,” but I’m thinking that’s a bit strong now). The warmists love to trash us without justification, and have suggested that our bodies be forcibly tattooed (Richard Glover) and even said that we be should be tried for crimes against humanity (James Hansen), or forced to consume carbon monoxide (Jill Singer). IMHO, I don’t see why we should bend over backwards to be so lily pure, and treat them with velvet gloves, considering.
      If it’s ok, I will now list some of my synonyms, and give a justification, or substantiation. To start, “Deceivers.” Climategate proves deliberate deception, and other synonyms that imply deceptiveness are thus substantiated as well (as propagandists). Those that include “bullshit,” though conceivably objected to on grounds that it could be considered a profanity, are also just another way of saying deception (“outright liars” is perhaps the most harsh, but many top skeptics go ahead and use the L word). And all the synonyms associated with doom (as Prophets of Doom) are commonly used by skeptics, and not questioned. That warmists use Orwellian mumbo jumbo, or peddle fear or idiocy, is also accepted. “Radicals” is a term often used, certainly in the U.S., to describe them and their radical cap & trade type proposals.
      “Fascists” may be the unfortunate term that wrung your alarm bell. On the other hand, they have tried to ram extreme and highly destructive programs through, often even saying that they feel constrained by democracy, and indeed wish for an eco-tyranny. And, look what happened in Australia, the way they rammed the carbon tax through despite it being clear that the people didn’t want it. Still, “fascist” may be a bit much. Sorry on that one.
      Finally, “insults” I don’t think can really be substantiated, per se, but the question may be whether they are justified. Is “freaks” too extreme? I don’t think so, at least in some cases, and the writer could determine whether it was appropriate to the case. Ok, again imho, these are a little strong, but not industrial strength strong: nuts, loons, even Climate Clowns (that Joe Bastardi recently coined).
      So, that’s my defense. Thanks in advance for allowing it (if you do!).

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  • #
    Joe V.

    Like a rainbow after the Great Flood, here is more evidence that the craziness is over.
    A commentator from that Warmist’s stronghold the UK Guardian, laments a reluctance in North American media to attribute current weather ‘events’ to Global Warming.

    “extreme weather” flashes across television screens from coast to coast, but its connection to climate change is consistently ignored, if not outright mocked.

    … our news media, including – or especially – the meteorologists, continue to ignore the essential link between extreme weather and climate change …

    .
    The US media and meteorologists will be on the wrong side of history if they keep refusing to make the weather-warming link.

    Will even sociologists in years to come, come back to the Guardian, to study & marvel at that early 21st. century phenomenon of Global Warming alarmism ?

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    • #
      Tom

      The fact that CAGW is one of the primary memes in a political doctrine should ring alarm bells among scientists seriously concerned by climate trends. The fact that not a single climate physicist has come out publicly and distanced his discipline from the Greens, which is now an extremist anti-capitalist movement, tells us plenty about the zealots who have fallen into climatology to change the world, not to contribute knowledge to the human race’s greatest repository of knowledge, science. The Guardian article is a political lament written by someone we need to be saved from.

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    • #

      It’s so peculiar. Some warming occurs over a densely populated and developed part of the world and one is expected to ignore cooling anomalies elsewhere – which are pretty signifcant right now. Just as one is only to talk of Western Antarctica, not the disobedient East…and don’t mention all that Bering sea ice when they’re trying to have a polite alarmist discussion about Greenland.

      Do these people know or care what the 1936 heatwave did to North America? After a nightmarishly cold winter? Amid all those Dustbowl years?

      Do they remember what cold weather did to the USA forty years on from the Big Heat of 1936? Don’t memory and history still count for something?

      I suppose it’s easier just to tell us we are at war with Oceania…or is it Eastasia?

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  • #
    KinkyKeith

    The Psychology of this Farce is amazing because here has never been any real science behing MMAGW.

    People want to belong; in another rave on another thread there is an out line of the

    parallesl between MMAGW and the true believers here in CAGW land and the Tom Cruise –

    Scientology mess. TB Warmers and Tom are both caught in an “Idea” rather than a reality

    and many around them are paying the price.

    Both frauds involve a need for belonging and money.

    Tom will probably never be able to shake himself free and many warmers likewise, not being

    able to face that fact that they have been sverely taken for a ride.

    Meanwhile back in the real world we have real pollution of the environment going on

    unchecked while poor old CO2 is subjected to ideological crucifiction for nothing.

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    • #
      Bob Malloy

      Now I’m just confused ?????

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      • #
        KinkyKeith

        Hi Bob

        Yes I rave on.

        Just saw a parallel in the way Scientolgy Hooks rich people in need of mental comfort, eg Tom Cruise who is being divorced because his wife is concerned that he will send their child to Scientology Finishing School to be brainwashed.

        Most of us here seem to have pushed away the cloud of scientific misinformation and understand that AGW is a belief not unlike Scientology in that it gives comfort and a place to belong to warmers.

        Still probably confusing.

        :)

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        • #
          Bob Malloy

          Sorry I KK, I was just referring to your reappearance as your true self.

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          • #
            KinkyKeith

            Bob

            Bob

            You’ve disappeared! Or have you always been iconless?

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          • #
            Bob Malloy

            KK;

            Bob

            You’ve disappeared! Or have you always been iconless?

            Quite often clueless, but never noticed that I was iconless. Now I feel all exposed, how embarrassing.

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  • #
    agwnonsense

    I am not a skeptic!I am a true believer Climate Change is NATURAL and CO2 is LIFE anything else is just so much garbage.Have a great weekend everyone especially Jo.

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  • #
    Winston

    Just how sustainable is sustainable?
    The case of the East Maitland Fire Station is an interesting one- built to include all “green technology” it is known among insiders (ie. the firemen) that this paragon of eco-virtue has had to have virtually every environmentally friendly device in its award winning design replaced after 3 years (with the sole exception of the recycled water for sewerage). All of the green tech solutions failed to perform the tasks designed for them adequately or failed entirely, and all were eventually replaced by conventional technology due to the failure of practical applicability, utility or longevity. Vive la solution!
    http://www.mckenzie.net.au/east%20maitland%20fire%20station.htm
    http://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=565

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    • #
      KinkyKeith

      Hi Winston

      Just to reinforce that theme.

      We recently built a new home and the green “musts” included shade awnings $2800, a heat pump water heater and a gigantic water tank.

      The water tank after 6 weeks has a leak but the main thing is that it stores about 4,000 litres at most.

      At 70 cents per kilolitre this is $2.80 worth of water “saved”.

      The tank, from memory was in the thousands rather than hundreds of dollars and is a total waste.

      The awnings willl probably save use $2 per year in air conditioning running costs and another heat pump system we owned on another house blew up after 4 years and cost $500 plus to repair; could have installed a new unit for that.

      So much WASTE in giving the appearance of looking after the environment.

      The Rain Water Tank is the best reason I can see for having communal dams for our water, it is a much more “ecologicaklly friendly” solution that all the individual tanks.

      Politics gives me the irrits.

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      • #
        Winston

        KK,
        Just extrapolate that waste world wide, and one can see just why this is such an emotive issue for skeptics. When the dust settles and the cheaply made Chinese solar panels have all become obsolete or inoperable, graveyards of windmills lie idle as rusting, ugly monuments to human folly, and poverty in the Third World becomes more entrenched rather than alleviated as the dreamers would like to believe, just who will be cowering in the tower when the angry villagers surround them with flaming torches and pitchforks?

        The scientific establishment will actually threaten the viability of scientific thought for decades through their own failure to stick to the basic tenets and principles of their tradition. As a result of
        this compromise of standards, I don’t think the impending backlash will be at all pretty. A reverse Enlightenment perhaps, or an Anti-renaissance, a Post-modern Dark Ages?

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      • #

        Sorry to hear about your tank, KK.
        The only one I heard of that was cost-effective was one dumped on a client’s property. Someone else refused to accept delivery of it because it had a scratch across it, and the supplier wasn’t able to ship it back.

        You might be interested in this:

        http://people.aapt.net.au/jclark19/ReportMay2012RWaterTanks-Townsville.pdf

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        • #
          KinkyKeith

          Interesting Martin,

          It said at one spot that average water saved was 44 k litres which is worth about $30.

          Winston’s East Maitland Firestation which I had to drive past to get to visit the builders office is a classic in Green Goodism Waste.

          I’m sure that all of the tank costs for every household in Newcastle would build several dams.

          Governments do not apply common sense to the provision of even the most basic of our human needs.

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      • #
        OzWizard

        Don’t worry, KK.

        Real engineers will find a way to dispose of those ‘hulks’, usefully and economically.

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  • #
    tckev

    Interesting little piece at http://theresilientearth.com/?q=content/ravaged-reefs-bounce-back

    Apparently Pacific coral reefs come and go maybe in a cyclic sort of way. Who would have guessed.

    The full report is behind a pay-wall at http://www.sciencemag.org/content/337/6090/81.full

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    • #
      Andrew McRae

      Don’t tell that to The Coral Whisperer, he’ll have to retroactively revise his predictions, again! :D

       
             س

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    • #
      Andrew McRae

       
              ☁☁☁☁☁☁☁☁
                ☔  ⚡

      Also courtesy of ABCNewsWatch comes a link to this little gem appearing in the Financial Review one week before the carbon tax landed.

      The bottom line of all this is that deliberate understatement of the uncertainty of the science allows overstatement of the climate change problem. In the early days of the debate – back in the ’70s and early ’80s, before the whole issue became highly politicised – scientists were quite happy to admit to the uncertainty.
      ….
      Climate science has transformed itself from a research backwater a few decades ago into one of the greatest public-good scientific cash cows ever devised. In Australia, for instance, there is a separate federal Department of Climate Change and Energy Efficiency specifically devoted to implementing (buying?) the social change required to limit global warming. The livelihood of many of the climate scientists within the CSIRO and elsewhere is now dependent on grants from that department. It is not a situation conducive to sceptical outlook and balanced advice. When a tendency toward postmodern science is mixed with a single, generous and undoubtedly biased source of money, it is not surprising that things can go very wrong very quickly.

      - former chief research scientist with the CSIRO division of atmospheric research, Garth Paltridge.

      I’m sensing a pattern…

           ♛♞====$⇨==>★☄☾⚗⚛⚗☾☄★<===⇦$===♞♛

      NASA said Danger Warm Robinson! Danger!
      But the ex-astronauts and 50 retired NASA scientists and engineers said cut the crap!

      CSIRO said cut the carbon now!
      But now two retired chief research scientists of CSIRO say cut the politics and get real!

      What’s that old ☭ Upton Sinclair quote that Al Gore was so fond of deploying when it suited him…
      “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!”

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  • #
    Joe V.

    Green solutions were never meant to last. They’re bio-degradable don’t you know.

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  • #
    warcroft

    Posted it in the last topic, but here it is again.
    Latest issue of New Scientist. Ive just included the relevant pages.
    http://www.warcroft.com.au/newscientist.pdf

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  • #
    redc

    A rough paraphrase from the Bolt report a moment ago:

    Michael Kroger: Why is little Australia leading with the world’s biggest carbon tax? Do we get a medal from the UN or something?

    Andrew Bolt: I think it’s an event at the London Olympics.

    :)

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    • #
      Bungalow Bill

      Michael Kroger: Why is little Australia leading with the world’s biggest carbon tax? Do we get a medal from the UN or something?

      Andrew Bolt: I think it’s an event at the London Olympics.

      I must admit, debate at this intellectually high level is rarely achieved by Bolt & Co.

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    • #

      Why is little Australia leading with the world’s biggest carbon tax? Do we get a medal from the UN or something?

      Have a look through the dismal wrap-up of Rio + 20. Ms Gillard gets a job out of it.

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      • #
        Robert

        Have a look through the dismal wrap-up of Rio + 20. Ms Gillard gets a job out of it.

        From what I have read from a number of the AU natives here and from what I can reason out myself watching this mess unfold from the US, isn’t her getting “a job out of it” the entire reason for her pushing the “tax”?

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  • #
    val majkus

    Picked up at WUWT

    What use is renewable energy

    http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/a-skeptic-looks-at-alternative-energy/0

    Not much without Government handouts that eventually cripple that Government’s country

    I e mailed it to Peter Lang one of my favourite renewable experts and he made this comment:

    I have made a comment at WUWT. I am sure Anton Lang could make a similar comment. I have visited quite a few power stations in Australia and overseas.
    Engineers differentiate availability and capacity. If a unit is down for maintenance or there is no input energy (coal, oil, gas, wind, sun, or water) then the plant is not available (I know of a cement kiln plant which I operated for a few months in Switzerland that ran 360 days on average over 14 years ie the availability was 98.6%, and I achieved about 200% of rated capacity). There are a number of things that can cause actual capacity to be higher or lower than rated capacity. Lower capacity maybe from restrictions to energy input (too little or too much wind, or too little sun), an operational problem (eg dust on solar panels or damage on panels), a design fault or from low power demand. Higher capacity normally arises on improved technical knowledge and engineering removal of some restriction (some equipment may run at higher temperature, or higher speed- eg a turbocharger on an engine)
    The devil is in the detail. The situation with renewables is much worse than apparent from aggregated figures particularly when some accounting is done on different basis.

    Renewables, the industry which lives on Government handouts

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    • #

      I have seen some of those watermelons comparing Wind and Solar to coal fired power.

      Seriously.

      They have absolutely no concept of how power is generated, because for them, it just comes out of the hole in the wall.

      The latest move is to compare the Humungous Concentrating solar power plant in Spain, that on one day, actually produced it’s power for the full 24 hour period.

      The fact that it was only 17MW is neither here nor there to these people.

      So, I pointed out the fact that when worked out over a full year, it averages out to around 15 hours a day of power, and this is what equates to the Plant’s own stated Capacity Factor of around 64%.

      However, the main thing here is that total power.

      That’s barely 17MW.

      Watermelons sniped at me comparing that stated CF with a cherry picked coal fired plant. What they totally and utterly misunderstood was the nature of that coal fired plant. It’s main task was to act as a running reserve, (or spinning reserve) plant, meaning it’s burning and turning, but not supplying power until one of those larger plants that do provide 24/7/365 Power had one of their generator’s go offline for maintenance. Then, that spinning reserve plant comes on line to provide the power not coming from the major plant. These spinning reserve plants are in the main, almost time expired plants that only need run when required. They supply massive amounts of power, not your piss farting 17MW, but up around 400 to 500MW at a time for the full time they are required.

      Then, after maintenance and the main plant has run the generator back up to operation, that spinning reserve plant goes off line again, just quietly burning and turning.

      Because it is not actually delivering power then that counts as periods of time not producing power, hence the Capacity Factor goes down, naturally.

      But no, those watermelons still point at these near 50 year old plants and compare them with their all singing all dancing ‘free power from the Sun’ Solar Plant generating 17 lousy MegaWatts on the same basis as that 50 year old plant, not on the power generated but on the Capacity Factor.

      New Technology coal fired plants can, and are operating at CF up around 90%, but that’s only where they are being built, in China, using our Australian coal to fuel them.

      Judas Priest, we even have a coal fired plant here in Australia that holds a World Record.

      The Number 4 unit at the Stanwell Power Plant just 25Km to the West of where I am sitting now, fired up on day one of the plant’s operation.

      They fed the coal into the crusher, and the fine talc powder consistency coal was then force fed into the furnace along with air, and the immense heat boiled vast quantities of water to high pressure, high temperature steam, which drove the huge multi stage turbine which turned over the (around ) 400 tonne Stator, and did that at 3,000RPM, that huge weight rotating at 50 times a second, generating almost 400MW, just from that one generator.

      That generator ran at that speed, flat out, its normal operation for a continuous 1,073 days, almost three continuous years.

      Stanwell Power Station

      So, can that wonderful Solar Plant in Spain actually deliver power on that scale?

      That ONE single solitary generator, all on its own, rated at 365MW, running flat out day in day out, delivered its power in just under three years.

      The Solar Plant in Spain, at a mammothly humungous 17MW in total will deliver that same amount of power in 101 years.

      101 years.

      If everything goes well, that is.

      Pity it’s life span is only 25 years at best.

      I know Nuclear Power is not even a consideration here in Australia, but the WHOLE fleet of Nuclear power in the US delivers its power at a regular 92.5% CF, and in Summer that’s up around 95%.

      At one Plant, Diablo Canyon, they had one generator run flat out at its 3600RPM for a full 365 day year delivering it’s rated power at 101.2%. The amount of power delivered from that ONE generator over that ONE year could realistically be delivered from that ONE Solar plant in Spain in 107 years.

      That whole fleet of 102 reactors driving 102 generators produces around 805TWH (2011), and the whole of Australia consumes 261TWH of Power (2011), so those 102 generators which supply almost 20% of all the power consumed in the US deliver more than three times the total power consumed here in Australia.

      So, while Australia gins around making piddling little wind and solar plants that deliver virtually nothing, and cannot deliver power on the time basis needed, those old coal fired plants we have just keep humming along, getting older.

      Build new technology coal fired plants that ‘make’ more power on a better time basis, burn less coal, and emit less CO2.

      Not on your life.

      Tony.

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      • #
        Adam Smith

        Tony,

        Maybe your [snipped spacer] ED

        [Adam needs to be more worthwhile]

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        • #
          Adam Smith

          Tony,

          Maybe your [snipped spacer] ED

          [Adam needs to be more worthwhile]

          HAHAHAHAHAHAH You call that moderation!

          [THIS is moderation] /Fly

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          • #
            Bungalow Bill

            Adam,

            you may have noticed post #3 from Eric Simpson. Just in case you haven’t here it is.

            Some synonyms for warmists:
            Deceivers, Bullshit Artists, [mix and match: Climate- / Eco- / Enviro- -nuts -fascists -loons -freaks -clowns -radicals], Prophets of Doom, doomsayers, fear / scare-mongers, peddlers / purveyors of -bullshit -fear -deception -propaganda -lies -mumbo jumbo -idiocy, Chicken Littles, Cry Wolfers, doom and gloomers, alarmists, bamboozlers, these masters of deception…, BSers, leftists, baloneyists, outright liars, Orwellian double-talkers, propagandists, Mumbo Jumbo Specialists.

            So Mr Mod, you referred to Adam’s post with the comment :

            [Adam needs to be more worthwhile]

            Can you let Adam know what was so worthwhile about Eric Simpson’s post.

            Cheers!

            —————————
            Fair point. Snipped. Please people on both sides — insults need to be substantiated and connected to a point. – Jo

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          • #
            Joe V.

            The difference is:- while Eric Simpson’s was new & once in a while, bit of light refreshment, Adam’s contribution is regular, repeated, relentless and using of a lot more while.
            Jo’s Mods are just such nice, tolerant, accommodating people to put up with so much drivel.

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          • #
            Adam Smith

            [THIS is moderation] /Fly

            No, it’s a joke.

            (Your first three comments were completely off topic and unproductive because of this and all were moderated.I am now forced to watch what you do next and I hate it!) CTS

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        • #

          Hey Doc, I’m surprised you haven’t resorted to your usual …. “you lose the argument because of a spelling mistake” routine, or something similar.

          Had you actually known anything about the subject, you may have actually found an error in my main Comment at 12.1, and because you haven’t found it, then I’d better point it out myself then, eh!

          I said here:

          … the huge multi stage turbine which turned over the (around ) 400 tonne Stator, and did that at 3,000RPM, that huge weight rotating at 50 times a second …

          That is in error as the Stator does not turn. It’s the Rotor that turns, but, hey, you knew that didn’t you? Just too polite to point it out.

          Also, you may think there’s another error where I mentioned that Stanwell rotates at 3000RPM, and the generator at Diablo Canyon rotates at 3600RPM, that is correct, as Australian Power is supplied at 50Hz, and US power is supplied at 60Hz, but hey, you knew that too eh!

          Tony.

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          • #
            Adam Smith

            That is in error as the Stator does not turn. It’s the Rotor that turns, but, hey, you knew that didn’t you? Just too polite to point it out.

            I didn’t read that part of your post because you lost the argument after you reverted to name calling.

            It seems you can’t remember, but I support a carbon price because it means there will be no more brown coal power stations built in Australia and the black coal ones will need to be very efficient.

            Solar and wind won’t be able to power Australia, so that means we will have to go nuclear.

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      • #

        “New Technology coal fired plants can, and are operating at CF up around 90%, but that’s only where they are being built, in China, using our Australian coal to fuel them.”

        It’s amazing, and it’s the single most frustrating thing about the anti-conservation movement called “Green”. They favour wasted resources, they favour real particulate and chemical pollution…and they even favour needless CO2 emissions.

        Some genius – to the delight of The Guardian – was able to prove that Spain was (briefly and maybe) exporting green power to France (juggling arbitrage, subsidy, fancy book-keeping etc). Of course we all know it’s the other way round, but it’s not just the turbines that have to keep on spinning.

        But that’s Spain. If a country poor in energy resources should commit to the folly of green power back when the euros kept tumbling mindlessly down from the north, you can sort of understand.

        If uranium and coal rich Australia commits to an energy policy of waste, pollution and impoverishment, that’s another matter.

        I urge everyone to read, re-read and circulate Tony’s posts on electricity and energy.

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      • #
        val majkus

        Tony just remember everything this Govt says you have to check 2 or 3 times

        Gillard on her live blog the other day answered a comment ‘Geothermal doesn’t work’ and her answer was ‘It does – it’s working now, I was in a training facility powered by geothermal’

        http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/another_geothermal_fail/

        have a read what a commentor had to say about that:

        Reader The Realist corrects the exaggeration:

        One of Gillard’s blog answers yesterday was that she had seen a training centre powered by geothermal at Brunswick. This is complete BS. The closest thing to it is an air conditioner using a shallow well heat exchanger to boost efficiency at NMIT Epping Campus

        When will Labor learn that this is indeed the 21st Century and people are going to fact check the heck out of anything they say, even if they never bother themselves?

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          Winston

          Why rely on the truth, when a lie works so much better.

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          Hey, speaking of shallow well heat exchangers, here’s a Post of my own, (guilty again) from more than three years back now, and also read the comments for this Post all the way to the bottom, and there’s only 10 of them.

          Who Owns These Two Houses?

          Tony.

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          Rereke Whakaaro

          Geothermal does work – New Zealand has got volcanos full of it. Australia, not so much.

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            But geothermal is nuclear power. Uncontrolled at that and at melt-down!

            The heat in the magma is from the radioactive decay of (mainly) Uranium, Thorium and Potassium.

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            Rereke Whakaaro

            Bernd,

            Don’t tell the Greens that – they will want us to shutdown all the volcanos, and ban earthquakes. What would we do for entertainment then?

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        Adam Smith

        Watermelons sniped at me comparing that stated CF with a cherry picked coal fired plant.

        Tony, maybe they would take your arguments more seriously if you didn’t revert to petty name calling?

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    RoyFOMR

    I’m furious. Spitting mad, me! I’m a pacifist pussy-cat yet I am enveloped in a red-mist of rage!!
    Why? I’ve just listened to the BBC world service arm of World Wide GreenSlime giving throat to curses about how evil that Humans are that they continue to ‘pollute’ the Planet even when deceased!!!
    These melons are seriously deranged if not psychopathic and they are I’m charge???
    Yes, I knew that misanthropy was likely a part of their DNA but to carry their curses to those passed away is beneath contempt.
    Hellfire and damnation is what our once respected civilisation now preaches Dammit, excuse language, but they make the Taliban seem like Quakers!

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      RoyFOMR

      Oops forget to give a link. Here it is:-
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p00tx6d6/One_Planet_One_Planet/
      Listen and weep!

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        Bob Massey

        Roy I just listened that excerpt about the Green Burial Council some of the things that he says is correct however the main thrust from the outlining comment was we were doing damage to the environment even after we have died. I dispute this because what is it that we are made of that is foreign to Planet ? The caskets are reasonable inert materials such as wood, copper, bronze etc. How is this hurting the Planet? These guys need a real job.

        The Insanity is astounding !!

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      Winston

      Roy,
      This is the Greens greatest achievement- to turn previously peace-loving, industrious people into angry, disillusioned pessimists, who retreat from making the world a better and more habitable place to one where divisions are rife, tolerance is a rarity, intellectual snobbery is the norm, and dialogue is non-existent. And the root of this social breakdown is an entrenched self- destruction inherent in the human genome, which when confronted with technological advancement beyond our capacity to feel in control, retreats in cowering quivering fear to its inner Luddite lizard.
      Amygdala 1 Cortex 0.

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        RoyFOMR

        Yup, Winston, very prescient. And they’re bl**dy good at dragging everybody else down to their level. What’s the solution? Better directed birth-control (somewhat unfair and over-prescriptive on their putative offspring though, I believe), proper ie non political education or just a wresting back of the mass-media from the politically-’correct’ chattering dip-sticks?
        I dunno much but I know this. I despair.

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          Winston

          What’s the solution? Better directed birth-control

          Retrospective contraception, perhaps? I jest, of course.

          A sense of humour is actually a very good start by engendering this into our children- a modicum of cynical humour is, IMHO, necessary absolutely in our human advancement- it is the better part of ourselves reaching out from our unconscious world. Entrenching and instilling the idea of the power of the individual, and its superiority to herd-mentality, which brings out our worst instincts and stifles our innovative flair and cognitive spark- there lies an Edison in every single man and woman if only they look for it. Education needs to be a source of foundation of knowledge, not an end to knowledge. Education needs to be above all honest- no “socially constructed” history, but rather modified openly according to evidence, not opinion. Indoctrination needs to recognised as completely distinct from Education, and yet this unholy marriage of opposing ideas is not only tolerated but actively pursued by educators across all levels and is the cancer which is ultimately eroding our advancement as a species. Importantly, no “socially constructed science” should be allowed under any circumstances, where advocacy and computer simulations replaces evidence, preconceived desires for outcomes supplant real world observations, and scientific method is thrown out the window because the cause is deemed too worthy or immediate enough to warrant eschewing its rigourous application. Strict control of the media, either through commercial or political manipulation, needs to be abolished allowing a free exchange of ideas. Competition needs to be restored across all spectrums of business to counter monopolies’ predatory business practices; regulation is much more necessary across the world’s financial systems- derivatives trading needs to be outlawed (it is betting on failure and invites industrial and societal sabotage) and criminal behaviour weeded out and prosecuted vigourously, while also politicians being funded by private interests, including unions, should be banned (or at the very least rendered completely transparent and publicised)- the US Presidential Race is a farce of multi-million dollar vested interests- two lame-duck stooges, bought and paid for- Hobson’s choice for the electorate. The UN needs to be disbanded completely as a rank and utter failure, to remove yet another layer of needless obstructionist bureaucracy (not to mention a body blow to narcissists everywhere), and removal of much of the micro-regulatory framework that is strangling the lifeblood out of Western society- bureaucracy needs to mindfully facilitate rather than obstruct development for the benefit of people and society at large, with concern for environment as a secondary source of modification, not obstruction. And that’s just for starters, off the top of my head.

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            Adam Smith

            Retrospective contraception, perhaps? I jest, of course.

            Why would you write such a reprehensible thing if you were only joking?

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            Winston

            Why would you write such a reprehensible thing if you were only joking?

            By what mechanism would such a process be even possible- time travel perhaps, Adam? It’s called “gallows humour”- you may have heard of it, appropriately enough since we stand in the shadow of the economic gallows as we speak. Such is Life.

            Btw, where was your moral indignation when Australian medical ethicists recently advocated “post-partum terminations” – a very real and very possible process not out of the Science Fiction realms, which some apparently advocate?

            Moonlighting with the thought police, Adam? Or perhaps the Anti-humour League? Please try to loosen up, the day of reckoning is not far off- you should be looking forward to it, seeing how you guys are doing such a bang up job n’all.

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            Adam Smith

            Something else children need to be taught is proper paragraphing.

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            Winston

            Something else children need to be taught is proper paragraphing.

            Adam, more importantly children should be taught how to be less pedantic and anally retentive, and focus instead on addressing the issues being discussed, rather than critiquing grammar or sentence construction. Needless to say that the sentence I just quoted above also needs a bit of work, grammatically speaking.

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        Rereke Whakaaro

        … retreats in cowering quivering fear to its inner Luddite lizard.

        Very poetic – I love the implied alliteration.

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      RoyFOMR

      Daddy? You know how Granny and Papa are dead? Are they killing the poor, Poley Bears?
      Misanthropes!

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      RoyFOMR

      Quote: FuzzFrightYear:~-
      To Infamy and Beyond..

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    val majkus

    another good weekend read
    http://www.quadrant.org.au/blogs/doomed-planet/2012/06/combet-s-hot-spot
    a bit of cut and paste:

    For Greg Combet, Federal Minister for Climate Change and Energy Efficiency and a past ACTU leader (1999-2007), it was an opportunity to defend his “carbon price mechanism” for 30 minutes and give regional “clean energy” decarbonising initiatives some positive spin.

    Combet, who represented Australia at recent international climate forums, stressed that “not one country questioned the science”. In Durban last year it was agreed that a “new treaty with binding obligations” would be negotiated by 2020. Something had to done now to ensure we could honour (pay for) our UN wealth-transfer pledges. We had to do our fair share to save the world from a French-fry fate. “If you respect the science,” he said, “you have to accept the public policy responsibility.”

    Yet if you simply accept official UN reports on climate change, ignore Climategate leaks and the politicised group-think culture; if you do not critique IPCC-sponsored and other research; if you treat highly speculative projections as accurate forecasts, then you – like Combet, Garnaut, Flannery, etc, – will insist reducing human carbon dioxide emissions is the only practical way to reduce global temperatures and prevent climate chaos.

    Why, then, is the government reluctant to give an international context for its introduction of “permission-to-pollute” carbon dioxide permits?

    As Paul Kelly noted in The Weekend Australian (16-17 June),

    a bizarre fate has befallen the carbon tax. It is de-coupled from its purpose. Debate about emissions reduction targets and saving the planet has slipped from the radar…. Three years ago climate change would have been the main issue. Now it is about a tax-cash payment policy with Climate Change Minister Greg Combet boasting nine out of 10 households will be better off.

    [It] has turned into a net tax-transfer bonus that is justified in its own right.

    Here’s one explanation. Commonwealth Treasury modelling assumes availability of unlimited international emissions permits from 2015-16. Given there is currently no global permit market, this is very optimistic. Yet virtually all the modelled national “reduction” in emissions is projected to come merely from purchasing offshore permits, some inevitably from carbon cowboys and carpetbaggers. Domestic emissions actually are expected to increase by 2020, declining by only 2 per cent by 2050. Significant amounts of income (estimated at $57 billion in 2050) will be transferred to developing countries. If international permits are unavailable, the domestic cost of emissions abatement could be much higher. Who would want to focus attention on this looming – and environmentally ineffective – mess?

    When asked why the government has resisted joining up all the carbon (dioxide) dots, Combet blamed the “hostile political environment”. The AbbottAbbottAbbott monster had

    engendered fear in the community with his overblown beat-up. It’s a bunch of garbage. But he’s going to be found out. Four million households will be better off under the carbon price. I’m a Labor man. I’m a veteran of many union meetings. I know you just can’t get up and lie to people.

    “We have a responsibility to future generations”, he said. “Is $2.50 extra a week too much for you? Are you really that selfish? It is just doing the right thing.” This went down well. The audience applauded with such vigour it was as if they were about to be compensated with a bunch of free carbon credits, despite having the world’s largest per capita carbon footprint.

    Ultimately, however, the debate will not be about domestic price impacts or whether “the sky will fall in after 1 July 2012” when the carbon price madness begins; but for how much longer the government’s carbon charade and complicity with an eco-elite presiding over the rotten core of international climate politics can be kept from public knowledge and scrutiny.

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    RoyFOMR

    Dunno what you Ozzies are moaning about; at least your Politicians don’t equivocate. Your current PM said that there will be no Carbon Tax under her rule. I wish that my PM, Mr Comeon-now, was as forthright.
    You whinging Ozzies just don’t know how lucky you are!

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      Adam Smith

      Well we are very fortunate that we are in a country that hasn’t gone into recession in the last 21 years, whereas the UK has gone into recession twice in about the last three years.

      The first recession was understandable due to the GFC, but the second recession that David Cameron put your country in was a completely voluntary recession and was directly caused by his government’s idiotic economic policies.

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    I was shocked, yes, again, when I heard about this example of pseudoscience last night while driving home, so I have contributed this: where 1.2C over 100+ years is supposed to make leaves narrower. Maybe Jo or Kens Kingdom can do a better job with the figures.

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    Adam Smith

    By what mechanism would such a process be even possible- time travel perhaps, Adam? It’s called “gallows humour”- you may have heard of it, appropriately enough since we stand in the shadow of the economic gallows as we speak. Such is Life.

    Economic gallows? What on earth are you going on about? Australia has the fastest growing economy in the developed world! Australia’s economy is 13% bigger now than just before Lehman bros. collapsed.

    Btw, where was your moral indignation when Australian medical ethicists recently advocated “post-partum terminations” – a very real and very possible process not out of the Science Fiction realms, which some apparently advocate?

    I have no idea what you are going on about. I have never heard of the term “post-partum terminations” before reading it in this post!

    Moonlighting with the thought police, Adam? Or perhaps the Anti-humour League? Please try to loosen up, the day of reckoning is not far off- you should be looking forward to it, seeing how you guys are doing such a bang up job n’all.

    Err, “anti-humour league”? WTF? You’re the one saying Australia is close to “economic gallows”.

    Your assertion that we are near a day of reckoning has weird biblical overtones that I admit I find very amusing.

    Maybe it is you that needs to chillax?

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      I have no idea what you are going on about. I have never heard of the term “post-partum terminations” before reading it in this post!

      You forgot to add ….. “and I should know. I’m a Doctor”.

      Nyuk nyuk nyuk!

      Tony.

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        Adam Smith

        You forgot to add ….. “and I should know. I’m a Doctor”.

        Oh I get it Tony! You are incapable of engaging with my posts as I write them so you are giving me advice on how to write them in a way that gives you something you are capable of arguing against!

        Nyuk nyuk nyuk!

        Tony.

        What are you, the 4th Stooge?

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      Winston

      I have no idea what you are going on about. I have never heard of the term “post-partum terminations” before reading it in this post!

      The Journal of Medical Ethics published a paper recently, written by professional ethicists, which was subsequently publicised on Andrew Bolt’s blog – the gist being that the sanctioning of killing of children in the womb should not be limited by the birth of the baby.

      Alberto Giubilini of Monash University and Dr Francesca Minerva of Melbourne University are quoted as follows-

      “What we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is (permissible), including cases where the newborn is not disabled.”

      Emphasis added. So now you know, though I suspect you did already- makes my little joke seem rather innocuous don’t you think?
      http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_a_babys_life_isnt_sacred_but_an_ethicists_is/

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        Winston

        Your assertion that we are near a day of reckoning has weird biblical overtones that I admit I find very amusing.

        I’m glad I amuse you, as is my heart’s most fervent desire, of course- the “day of reckoning” to which I refer is less biblical, and more in the vein of The Alamo or the Little Big Horn.

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          Adam Smith

          I’m glad I amuse you, as is my heart’s most fervent desire, of course- the “day of reckoning” to which I refer is less biblical, and more in the vein of The Alamo or the Little Big Horn.

          Oh OK, so you’re just another wackaloon pledging violence because your side happened to lose a couple of elections.

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            Winston

            Pledging violence??? Both the incidents alluded to reference monumental and ignominious defeats brought about by extreme hubris and drastically underestimating the magnitude of the opposition they would have to confront. You have serious comprehension problems for a supposed lawyer if you think that somehow that was a call to violent insurrection- small wonder you chose politics.

            As to sides, my first vote in general elections was for Labor in 1983 and Don Chipp’s democrats in the Senate- I actually don’t agree with the Libs on alot of issues, but the alternatives are just so lamentable that to vote for anyone else is tantamount to negligence.

            The disintegration of the Labor-Green alliance played out exactly as I expected, and I was glad Abbott didn’t succeed in brokering a deal to gain government because that probably would have ended badly also, though I doubt he would have vacillated, back-flipped and spun about like a drunk on a tightrope quite like the current regime.

            By all means though continue to delude yourself that things are going great, the worm is about to turn and a grateful public are going to wake up tomorrow and see the light about the wonderful reforms and transformative policies Labor are responsible for, ushering in a golden age of prosperity.

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            Brian of Moorabbin

            Oh OK, so you’re just another wackaloon pledging violence because your side happened to lose a couple of elections.

            Adam takes offence at being called a denier, claims he doesn’t denigrate people on this blog, and then comes out with the above gem.

            PRICELESS!!
            :lol:

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        Adam Smith

        I have no idea what that has to do with anything I have written!!!

        But rather than linking me to Andrew Bolt’s blog I would rather read the article itself because Andrew Bolt has a habit of misrepresenting things.

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    Andrew McRae

    More news for fans of SkyNet and the new world order…

    DARPA announced a new goal of increasing robot power transmission by 2000% (two thousand percent). To be successful, competitors in the industrial military complex will have to:

    …develop and demonstrate high-efficiency actuation technology that will allow robots similar to the DARPA Robotics Challenge (DRC) Government Furnished Equipment (GFE) platform to have twenty times longer endurance than the DRC GFE when running on untethered battery power

    These robots will be demonstrated at, but not compete in, the second DRC live competition scheduled for December 2014.

    Mark that date in your calendars, dear humans, for in December 2014 the robots will be on the loose!

    Should we be at all concerned that this event is described as a “live” competition? :)
    I know now why it is you cry, but it is something I can never do.” – T800

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      Andrew McRae

      correction to above, that is a 2000% efficiency increase, not total power increase. A word got lost in transcription.

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      Mike Jowsey

      Try a wireless power transmission.

      http://teslatech.info/ttmagazine/v1n4/valone.htm

      “In November, 2002, the American Council for the United Nations University called for wireless energy transmission to circumvent the need for transmission lines as part of their “Millennium Project.” In cooperation with the National Science Foundation (NSF), NASA, and the Electrical Power Research nstitute (EPRI), the beaming of microwave energy and the creation of a world energy organization was seen to actively address the 2020 challenges to global electricity supply, especially in areas of massive urban concentrations.5″

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    Dave

    .
    The Reserve Bank says.

    Total credit in Australia, including mortgages and personal and business loans, is $2.1 trillion, equal to more than 140 per cent of GDP,

    The economy in Australia with massive government debt (biggest ever under GILLARD & SWAN) is not in as good shape as TOLD by the ALP! And will get worse!

    A useless government!

    What a stupid time to introduce a useless CO2 Tax and MRRT! Idiots!

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      Adam Smith

      Wow Dave has just discovered that most people buy homes using credit.

      What Dave didn’t bother to mention is that Australians also have almost $2 trillion in savings via their superannuation accounts.

      Of course compulsory super was something else that the conservative side of politics voted against.

      I think you’ll also find that household savings in Australia is at its highest level now for about 30 years, but of course Dave is only interested in telling half of the story.

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        Dave

        .
        Non-mining sectors make up 90% of the economy:

        1. Worst National GDP Growth over last 5 years (ALP)
        2. Worst drops in Owner Occupied Housing Finance Growth over last 5 years (ALP)
        3. Worst Construction Industry Growth Figures (Shrinking) ever (ALP)
        4. Worst National Retail Sales Growth for last 5 years (ALP)

        YUP! The economy is certainly going great under Labour – all downhill!

        Mining covers Australian Bad Economy

        What a stupid time to introduce a useless CO2 Tax and MRRT! Idiots!

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          Adam Smith

          What a stupid time to introduce a useless CO2 Tax and MRRT! Idiots!

          Err? The economy is growing at its fastest rate since late 2007.

          Why should we give away our mining resources with commodity prices at historical highs?

          Surely you are smart enough to realise that if you reduce taxes on mining companies it means other sectors of the economy will have to pay more tax, or perhaps even higher personal taxes to make up the shortfall.

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            Dave

            .

            if you reduce taxes on mining companies it means other sectors of the economy will have to pay more tax, or perhaps even higher personal taxes to make up the shortfall.

            But we are!
            1. The ALP put the TAX on Mining!
            2. And then the ALP increased personal TAXES – It’s called the CO2 Tax!
            3. And then the ALP keeps the RET’s for good measure – IDIOTS!

            The Australian economy will suffer with this IDIOT ALP government

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    pat

    Abbott is getting closer to a position that could almost have me voting for the Coalition, but they need to firm up their position against an ETS before i’m convinced:

    8 July: ABC Insiders: The world is abandoning emissions trading: Abbott
    BARRIE CASSIDY: So the business community wants certainty. You’re certainly clear on one point, there will be no carbon tax under a … But what about an emissions trading scheme? Will there be an emissions trading scheme at any point?
    TONY ABBOTT: Well, the world is running away from an emissions trading scheme at a million miles an hour. It’s been obvious since Copenhagen that we’re not moving toward these things, we’re moving away from them.
    BARRIE CASSIDY: Are you sure about that though? That they’re moving away from a carbon tax perhaps, but you’re banking a lot on the fact there will never be an emissions trading scheme.
    TONY ABBOTT: As I said, all the signs, whether it’s America, Canada, whether it’s the rest of the big economies, there are no signs that any of them are embracing a carbon tax or an economy-wide emissions trading scheme.
    BARRIE CASSIDY: So you don’t think there will ever be one in Australia; that Australia will ever be part of a global market?
    TONY ABBOTT: Well who knows what might happen in a decade or two decades or three decades? But our challenge is to deal with the problems of today. And at the moment this is the world’s biggest carbon tax at the worst possible time. We are exposing ourselves to all sorts of economic damage, without doing any environmental good.
    BARRIE CASSIDY: So you’re satisfied that’s the view of the business community as well, that they don’t want an ETS in place at any point?
    TONY ABBOTT: You can always find some voices that will say, ‘yes, we want one.’ But I don’t think anyone wants a carbon tax of $23 a tonne – because the world’s biggest carbon tax at a very bad time.
    Now I’ve visited literally hundreds of businesses over the last year, I don’t think Julia Gillard has visited very many at all, and the universal message I’m getting Barrie, is they don’t want this thing because …
    BARRIE CASSIDY: They don’t want the carbon tax …
    TONY ABBOTT: Because it’s going to act like a reverse tariff.
    BARRIE CASSIDY: … but the ETS is a different question.
    TONY ABBOTT: Well I don’t believe that it is a different question because it will act as a reverse tariff. If it’s a unilateral carbon tax or a unilateral emissions trading scheme, it puts up our prices vis-a-vis our competitors, it hurts jobs in this country and effectively protects jobs in other countries.
    BARRIE CASSIDY: Now you’ve got a problem repealing it of course, but the other issue is compensation. Your approach seems too good to be true. There will be no carbon tax, so therefore there will be no price rises, and yet people will get tax cuts anyway, and presumably the pension increases will stay?
    TONY ABBOTT: We will pay for tax cuts without a carbon tax, and for pension increases without a carbon tax through sensible savings in unnecessary and wasteful government expenditure.
    BARRIE CASSIDY: But why is there a need for those tax cuts or pension increases if there is no carbon tax?
    TONY ABBOTT: Because we want people to be better off and we want government to live within its means.
    Now at the last election Barrie, we came up with $50 billion worth of savings. The challenge will be harder this time, I accept that, because these are tougher fiscal times. But I believe that we can find significant savings that will enable us to give a tax cut without a carbon tax.
    BARRIE CASSIDY: So you want people to be better off but you want government to live within its means. The two contradict each other.
    TONY ABBOTT: I don’t believe that’s true, not at all. Look what’s happened across the Tasman. In about five years, John Key has got government as a percentage of GDP (gross domestic product) down from 35 per cent to 30 per cent of GDP, that’s a 5 per cent reduction in government spending.
    Now has New Zealand been devastated? No, it hasn’t. These are the sorts of reductions that you can achieve over time if you believe in small government rather than big government. And that’s Labor’s problem. This is essentially an old-fashioned borrow and spend, tax and spend, Labor government that has forgotten the lessons that Bob Hawke and Paul Keating learnt…
    http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2012/s3541262.htm

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      val majkus

      so Pat if they don’t firm up their position who are you voting for?

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        memoryvault

        .
        Obviously if prior to the next election Abbott and the Liberals don’t scrap their “climate change” policies and give some kind of solid undertaking to clean the green rot out of the BoM, CSIRO, our schools and universities, and the ABC, they will be sending a very clear signal that they intend continuing with the same nation-destroying madness.

        That being the case, it is beholden on all true conservatives to help them as much as we can by voting for the Greens.

        That way, by the time of the following election, we might just have some “conservative” candidates running and a population prepared to vote for them. And sanity.

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      Adam Smith

      TONY ABBOTT: Well, the world is running away from an emissions trading scheme at a million miles an hour. It’s been obvious since Copenhagen that we’re not moving toward these things, we’re moving away from them.

      What utter bullshit! California and New York are starting emissions trading schemes on January 1st next year.

      Those two U.S. states have bigger economies than Australia.

      Where on earth does Tony Abbott get this stuff from? He just makes it up doesn’t he?

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      Adam Smith

      TONY ABBOTT: I don’t believe that’s true, not at all. Look what’s happened across the Tasman. In about five years, John Key has got government as a percentage of GDP (gross domestic product) down from 35 per cent to 30 per cent of GDP, that’s a 5 per cent reduction in government spending.

      This is just an astonishing statement! Australia’s spending to GDP last financial year was about 24% and yet Abbott is saying how great it is that New Zealand is on 30%!!!

      Remember when Abbott said that New Zealand did better during the GFC than Australia? Of course by better Abbott meant that New Zealand was stuck in recession for 5 consecutive quarters, whereas Australia only had ONE quarter of negative growth!

      No offense to any New Zealanders here, but we don’t want to copy New Zealand’s economic policies!

      If you vote to make Abbott PM keep in mind you are electing an economic dunce.
      http://www.petermartin.com.au/2010/01/lets-be-more-like-new-zealand-abbott.html

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        Llew Jones

        Is English your first language? He did not say the 30% was great. He said reducing government spending by 5% is what can be done by (a non labor) government. A world of difference.

        Perhaps you need remedial classes in language comprehension.

        You have made the same mistake with Abbott’s claim on ETS schemes. See if you can find your mistake. Hint: “economy-wide” when referring to Canada and America means what?

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          Adam Smith

          Is English your first language? He did not say the 30% was great. He said reducing government spending by 5% is what can be done by (a non labor) government. A world of difference.

          You’re in a dreamland if you think any federal government will cut spending to under 20% of GDP. It hasn’t be there since the late 1960s.

          I mean the last Coalition government we had in Australia INCREASED federal government spending from 23% to an average of around 25% of GDP!!!

          Any government that tried to cut spending to below 20% would be voted out, because it would imply massive cuts to a lot of popular programs including things like Medicare.

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          Adam Smith

          You have made the same mistake with Abbott’s claim on ETS schemes. See if you can find your mistake. Hint: “economy-wide” when referring to Canada and America means what?

          Well this just proves that you don’t understand the current ETS. The ETS operating in Australia now is NOT “economy wide”. It doesn’t include agriculture or personal transport which is about 40% of Australia’s emissions.

          The more you write the more you demonstrate you simply don’t understand what you think Abbott is talking about. The more Abbott talks the more he demonstrates that he doesn’t know much about what he is speaking of, but he seems to know enough words to fool people like you into thinking that he knows what he speaks of.

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    Richard111

    It’s all an evolutionary process folks. Once the dust has settled the global population of homo sapiens sapiens will be vastly reduced and the survivors will parade proudly in the gulags.

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      Adam Smith

      WTF? Are you Dr Strangelove?

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        Dave

        .
        Photo of Dr Stangelove.

        Peters Sellers died over 32 years ago:

        How could Richard111 possibly be Dr. Stangelove???
        How could Julia Gillard be Prime Minister?
        How will the CO2 Tax in Australia reduce the temperature of the whole world?

        Why will the ALP lose the next election??

        LIES – nothing but LIES!

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      Dave

      .
      MadJak.

      Absolutely agree – Julia Gillard, Swan, Combet etc and whole of the ALP just LIED again for seven months, knowing all along they were leading Andrew Wilkie up the Garden Path! Gutless human beings – all of those that knew of this LIE! Thanks for the link!

      They are constantly telling LIES!

      Even LIED to their own independent members of government!

      Can’t wait for a poll!

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    Tomorrow night at Midnight (Monday July 9th) marks a truly wonderful occasion, one that all Queenslanders should celebrate.

    At that time the feed in tariff for rooftop solar power is reduced.

    It currently stands at 44 cents per KWH.

    Those power providers have been forced to buy the excess rooftop power produced from rooftop systems.

    The only time this has any substantial effect is if you have a pretty large, and by extrapolation, expensive system, because with smaller systems there is very little power left to feed back to the grids after the residence is supplied with what it normally consumes during an average period of bright cloud free Sunlight.

    So, while some of you may think that dropping this feed in tariff is unfair, let’s look at it then, shall we.

    That feed in tariff currently stands at 44 cents per KWH, and is being dropped to 8 cents per KWH.

    The cheapest method of generating electrical power in Australia is (far and away) coal fired power, and they can supply their power to the grid at around $35 to $45 per MWH. The providers (Ergon, Origin etc etc) buy this power and then charge their consumers the cost, which translates to 3.5 to 4.5 cents per KWH.

    So, with those feed in tariffs set at 44 cents per KWH, then you can see that this is even way more than what those retailers charge consumers for the total cost of electricity, which is around 25 cents per KWH, having just risen by 3 cents per KWH with the introduction of this Carbon Tax (sic)

    Now, by dropping it back to 8 cents per KWH, it is still more expensive that the cheapest form of power generation, but at least it’s on a par with what people actually pay for electricity.

    The average power consumption for a typical residence is daylight (one third) non daylight (two thirds) so even those people with rooftop solar systems are still net consumers of power from the grid, so they are relying on those coal fired plants to supply them with the bulk of their power anyway, and the only reason they gave such huge tariffs was so those rooftop systems could actually pay for themselves before they time expired.

    Now, because those tariffs were set so high, someone has to actually pay for that. Those who do pay are the people who are just connected to the grids and consume all their power from the grid. Because those providers have been forced to buy that power from those rooftop systems, they in turn pass on those costs directly to all consumers who use power from the grid, including those with the rooftop panels, as the bulk of their consumption is from the grid anyway.

    This is one of the factors that has added to the ever increasing cost of electricity.

    The only morally real way those panels should be used are for applications where the residence is totally removed from the grid. That way, the whole residence is supplied by only the power generated by those rooftop panels. However, this entails having a huge battery backup bank. The Sunlight generates the power during daylight in the panels and that power is then converted to household 240V/50Hz power with an Inverter, and while supplying the residence with power, part of the power is routed to the battery charger and the batteries. During non daylight hours the panels supply the power to the Inverter, and during non daylight hours that power is then supplied by the battery bank to the Inverter.

    You can cheap out here, but the recommendation is for a battery bank capable of operation for three days minimum. Because of this, that battery bank needs to be substantial, and that adds (considerably) to the overall cost, and that, for an average residence is around $68,000. Also keep in mind that those batteries need to be good ones for another reason. Batteries have a finite life, the number of charges that they can accept, and all going well, with good batteries, that may be as good as seven years, so you can see that a system of this nature becomes progressively more expensive with a probable $20K extra required every seven or so years.

    Even those self supporting systems attract hefty subsidies at installation, again paid for by all consumers in added costs for the electricity they consume.

    However, the bulk of the systems will be installed to ‘lock in’ that contract at that 44 cents per KWH, and we, all of us, pay for that.

    So, at midnight tomorrow, the tariff drops back to 8 cents per KWH, still more than what the providers pay for electricity from coal fired power.

    So, on Tuesday morning watch as the fundament drops out of the solar panel business here in Queensland.

    But, hey, that probably won’t happen, because there’s enough green supporters out there who will keep it afloat.

    Yeah! Right!

    Also, perhaps a little known fact is something called ‘Islanding’. What that means is that during a blackout, those rooftop systems must be removed from the grid, because there can be no power feeding the grids while the people are working on it to restore power.

    So, during a blackout, even those people with rooftop power will also be blacked out as well, unless of course they have battery backup and circuitry to prevent power being fed back to the grid, adding to the cost of the system.

    So, rabid green environmentalism has led to substantially increased costs of electricity for all of us.

    Tomorrow, some of that iniquity ends, but we will still be paying for it for at least 25 more years as all those people who took advantage of everyone else have locked in contracts at that 44 cents per KWH.

    Solar Power System Cost

    At that link, scroll down almost to the bottom of the page and then click on the image that is titled View Our Remote Area Pricing Guide. Look at the second bottom one there for an average consumption of 20KWH, which is a little less than the current Australian Power consumption per day, and that installed price is the fourth column from the left.

    Tony.

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      The (unsubsidised) solar system costs are pretty much as expected; and not much cheaper than they were a decade ago, adjusting for the value of the dollar.

      The hidden costs with off-grid are in maintenance; which can be quite steep when replacing battery banks every 3 to 5 years.

      I find it impossible to justify e.g. a 20kWh/day average system compared to the fuel costs provided by e.g. about 2500 litres of diesel for an equivalent amount of electricity generated over a year. If I had the money for such an off-grid PV solar system, I’d buy an 8kVA diesel generator and put the rest of the money into an investment account, letting the interest pay for the fuel and generator maintenance. After 20 years; I’d probably have the original principal and a shirtload of compound interest to enjoy.

      As a bonus, I wouldn’t have to ration my energy consumption during a period of overcast days.

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    Tristan

    Anyone play any good PC games recently?

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      Having completed Myst, and Riven, and two thirds of Exile, I’m looking forward to Revelation, and then End Of Ages, and that should keep me occupied for a long while yet.

      Very clever games.

      Tony.

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      Dave

      .
      YUP – some really good ones!!

      New one called “FIND THE GREEN“!

      And another one called “FIND THE GREEN LINK“!

      And the last one called “FIND THE GREEN CONNECTION“!

      And all of the above support a CO2 TAX that won’t reduce the worlds temperature by anything at all! What a bright lot!!

      Love PC Games! :)

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      Tristan

      I wonder what it is that makes a person like Myst or not. I like books, I like games and I like music but I’ve struggled to enjoy the attempts to blend the media (even when I can admire them for their artistry).

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    Rereke Whakaaro

    An article in The Sunday Times (behind the pay-wall), entitled “Disciples of the ‘God Particle’ hail discovery of a lifetime”, by Rachel Sylvester and Alice Thomson, caught my eye today.

    It is an article about Jeff Forshaw and Brian Cox, who are both making Quantum Mechanics sexy. The article starts, “They are geek chic …”, and then goes on to explain how both men have attracted a groupie following.

    The actual paragraphs that grabbed my attention were:

    [The two men are] … conjuring up a new way of looking at the universe, which they admit is difficult to understand.

    “The problem is that it requires that we accept a world in which particles are in two places at the same time,” Fanshaw explains.

    “No one’s head can accommodate that. The rules are simple but weird. It flatly contradicts our everyday experience.”

    Cox insists the concepts are possible for the general reader to grasp. “It is as difficult as a challenging Sudoku puzzle. There’s just a shift needed in your perception.”

    It is critical, he says, that science become mainstream. “We live in a society which is governed by science. If only a few people understand the foundation of that society, it is not only profoundly undemocratic, it is dangerous. The scientific method is to question the world, to be sceptical and to look at the evidence before making a conclusion. It’s very important for people to think more like that”.

    This is mainstream UK media, and they are letting through a comment that implies that it is OK, or even chic, to be sceptical.

    Mind you, Quantum Physics? Probably shills for big oil.

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      Joe V.

      This is mainstream UK media, and they are letting through a comment that implies that it is OK, or even chic, to be sceptical

      .

      Yeah but, if chic sceptical consists of more thinking ladies druelling over Brian Cox, there isn’t much danger of the status quo being destabilised.
      Just make sure the new Messiah works for the BBC.

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    MadJak

    Not just police – but anyone in the pay of the public – politicians, Beaurocrats, Suppliers, the whole lot should be subject to random drug tests.

    It’s not that much to ask that my taxes don’t directly support illegal activities.

    And yes, this should include long term beneficiaries as well.

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    mobilly1

    Watching the tour de France on and off I noticed still wind turbines as they rode through the French countryside , Just now watching the German motoGP all you can see in the background is rotating wind turbines at about 1rpm , Totally useless . Does anyone not find this ironic given the French Nuclear power stations sell real electricity to Germany and Germany sell solar panels to the world .

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    Adam Smith

    Dave

    But we are!
    1. The ALP put the TAX on Mining!
    2. And then the ALP increased personal TAXES – It’s called the CO2 Tax!
    3. And then the ALP keeps the RET’s for good measure – IDIOTS!

    The Australian economy will suffer with this IDIOT ALP government

    Clearly Dave doesn’t know anything about economics.

    The tax to GDP ratio is lower now than during the Howard government! The truth hurts doesn’t it!

    The government REDUCED personal taxes by increasing the tax free threshold to $18200 and will increase it again on July 1st next year.

    The RET is bipartisan policy mate. It passed parliament with both the Government and Opposition voting for it.

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      Loki

      The government REDUCED personal taxes by increasing the tax free threshold to $18200 and will increase it again on July 1st next year.

      According to the ABS the average person earns $1404.90/week. This means that the average tax reduction is $3.39/week.
      I earn slightly more than that (1540/week), so my tax savings are $3/YEAR or 5.77c/week.
      That makes me feel so much better. It will cover the price rise on less than 2 kWhr a week brought about by a tax that will not affect the rise in CO2 or temperature,and that the majority of Australians don’t want.

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      Dave

      .
      Yup! SWAN & GILLARD are TOPS in the economy! NOT!

      Worst debt for decades: “ALP THE BIG SPENDERS

      The RET was retained by the ALP – double dipping with the CO2 TAX!

      SWAN, COMBET & GILLARD need more money to spend – to fund their BIG LIE! CO2 Pollution!

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        Adam Smith

        Actually federal government spending is lower now than for most of the Howard years.

        Spending has been kept to 24% of GDP or less for the first time since the late 1980s (when another Labor government was in power).

        The assertion that Labor governments spend more than Coalition governments is just factually incorrect and at worst an out right lie.

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    Adam Smith

    Winston

    Adam, more importantly children should be taught how to be less pedantic and anally retentive, and focus instead on addressing the issues being discussed, rather than critiquing grammar or sentence construction. Needless to say that the sentence I just quoted above also needs a bit of work, grammatically speaking.

    Err what? So you just criticised me for saying you should paragraph your post properly, but then you go ahead and accuse me of writing an ungrammatical sentence.

    How does that make sense? What’s good for you is good for me.

    Oh, and that slab of text you wrote is STILL improperly paragraphed which makes it annoying to read.

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      Winston

      Bit tetchy, aren’t you Adam. Signs of strain in defending the indefensible, old sport. I’m sorry I can’t retrospectively space the paragraphs to your exacting standards. I promise I’ll report to the Headmaster’s office and request “6 of the best” for my crimes against humanity. Would that appease your worship?

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        KinkyKeith

        Hi Winston

        If reading a paragraph makes him annoyed just imagine how he would feel if he had to do what the rest of us have done to get by.

        GO OUT.

        Yes GO OUT.

        And get a Job.

        Now that would really annoy him.

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          Winston

          I was thinking the same thing!

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          Rereke Whakaaro

          I think he has a job – I think he is paid to try and shout us down because we are heretics who do not worship at the alter of the ALP.

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          Rereke Whakaaro

          Whoops, I meant to say, “heretics who do not necessarily worship at the alter of the ALP”.

          This blog is, after all, non-partisan.

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          Adam Smith

          Wow, you’ve run out of argument so now all you can do is hurl abuse.

          Congratulations, you’ve just lost the debate.

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    Myrrh

    I came across these two articles while looking for something else. The first on GM crops particularly shocking because I haven’t come across such detail when actually looking for info on GM crops, and the second, I read some time ago that the swine flu vaccine had been patented two years before the first outbreak.

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/07/03/gmo-foods-false-claims.aspx

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/07/07/pandemic-swine-flu-vaccines.aspx

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      Llew Jones

      Opposition to GM modified crops is dependent on the same philosophy that seeks to limit the use of fossil fuels on the ground that the CO2 emitted to the atmosphere is not part of the “natural” process. Anyone who knows about pre-GM selective animal and crop breeding knows that that is not a natural process but without it we humans would not, with our present populations, be able to feed ourselves.

      Organic food advocacy, opposition to herbicides, anti-vaccination attitudes, “natural” medicine and opposition to the use of fossil fuels, in my estimation, are all part of the anti-science philosophy of the same pseudo religion that undergirds “sustainability”.

      Here on the other hand for example is the Queensland Government’s information on GM crops from the opposite perspective:

      http://www2.dpi.qld.gov.au/fieldcrops/9548.html

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        Adam Smith

        Organic food advocacy, opposition to herbicides, anti-vaccination attitudes, “natural” medicine and opposition to the use of fossil fuels, in my estimation, are all part of the anti-science philosophy of the same pseudo religion that undergirds “sustainability”.

        Oh dear, what a load of nonsense.

        I am pro-vaccination, pro nuclear power, pro medicine that works, I don’t eat organic foods because it is a rip off, I have no problems with GM foods, but still feel that we should reduce our reliance on fossil fuels.

        It’s easy to just come up with idiotic stereotypes instead of engaging with arguments that happen to be different to your own.

        I of course note the hypocrisy of so called environmentalists who are concerned about climate change but not concerned enough to support nuclear power which is the best alternative to coal and gas for base load power.

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          Joe V.

          Being concerned about use of coal & gas while also about the risk of environmental destruction from radioactive pollution that comes with nuclear power isn’t hypocritical. It’s just confused.
          .
          I find people who readily throw around the charge of hypocritical often tend to be among the better examples of such.

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            Adam Smith

            Being concerned about use of coal & gas while also about the risk of environmental destruction from radioactive pollution that comes with nuclear power isn’t hypocritical. It’s just confused.

            No it is actually a clear example of hypocrisy, because nuclear power is far safer than power derived from fossil fuels.

            I find people who readily throw around the charge of hypocritical often tend to be among the better examples of such.

            So let me get this straight, you said it is bad for me to accuse someone of being a hypocrite because that is bad and that makes me a hypocrite?

            I guess I’ll just leave you to argue against yourself!

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            We’ve been all over this before Doctor Smith, and you were shredded that last time, so I’ll only add the one comment here, and then you can argue amongst yourself.

            Tell us Doctor, how soon you expect those Nuclear power plants to be on line and delivering power.

            Go on, Doctor, let’s see you commit, and this time, answer the direct question.

            Tony.

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    elva

    I see on bom.gov.au website they have a page ACORN-SAT station data and network which shows data for 100 years (since 2010). Most sites do so. It claims that the mean temperature in that time has increased 1′C and mostly since 1950.

    I notice, however, that Brisbane is unusual. The data is only taken from 1949 at the Brisbane airport. Yet Brisbane was recording long before on top of a hill called Wickham Terrace. Then in 1988 the recordings were shifted to the new airport near the present one which is directly next to the sea. Temperatures suddenly were lower in the day due to sea breezes.

    Not long after the main recording station was transferred to near the CBD again alongside a 6 lane highway. Now, it seems, the main recording station has returned to the 1988 airport site. Just what is going on here?

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    Adam Smith

    Winston
    July 9, 2012 at 12:12 am
    Pledging violence??? Both the incidents alluded to reference monumental and ignominious defeats brought about by extreme hubris and drastically underestimating the magnitude of the opposition they would have to confront.

    There’s a lot of words here, but they don’t really mean anything.

    You have serious comprehension problems for a supposed lawyer if you think that somehow that was a call to violent insurrection- small wonder you chose politics.

    Err, when have I claimed to be a lawyer!?

    As to sides, my first vote in general elections was for Labor in 1983 and Don Chipp’s democrats in the Senate- I actually don’t agree with the Libs on alot of issues, but the alternatives are just so lamentable that to vote for anyone else is tantamount to negligence.

    I’m not a lawyer, but I’m pretty sure your use of the word “negligence” in this context is inappropriate.

    The disintegration of the Labor-Green alliance played out exactly as I expected, and I was glad Abbott didn’t succeed in brokering a deal to gain government because that probably would have ended badly also, though I doubt he would have vacillated, back-flipped and spun about like a drunk on a tightrope quite like the current regime.

    Tony Abbott is incapable of compromising and negotiating with people in good faith, that’s why he was unable to negotiate his way to the lodge after the 2010 election. Since that date he has just been having a mega dummy spit because he thinks he is born to be PM.

    By all means though continue to delude yourself that things are going great, the worm is about to turn and a grateful public are going to wake up tomorrow and see the light about the wonderful reforms and transformative policies Labor are responsible for, ushering in a golden age of prosperity.

    Actually if you cared to read some of my posts instead of basing your judgement of me based on your delusional stereotyping you’d know that I don’t think Labor can win the next election with Gillard as leader.

    If Kevin Rudd was made leader then the Coalition would have to start asking itself if they can win the next election with Tony Abbott as leader because Rudd is a far more popular politician than Abbott.

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      Chris M

      Actually mate you’re just a rusted-on antediluvian Laborite, possibly in the NSW right-wing tradition and quite possibly a staffer, with some education but a total inability to think beyond your own prejudices. Tony Abbott isn’t PM because Windsor and Oakeshott never genuinely considered supporting him, the former because of his rabid antipathy towards the Nationals and the latter because he concealed his green/left-wing tendencies from his own electorate. GetUp assisted with his campaign and were fulsomely praised and thanked by him post-election, FFS! Nothing to do with Abbott’s alleged lack of negotiating skills!

      To confront your anachronistic Yay Team mentality, try and see if you agree with some of this:

      Whitlam – went too far, too fast with his socialist ideology
      Fraser – dreary and dreadful, had tickets on himself as a world statesman
      Hawke – an intelligent man with good economic ideas, but prone to act on emotion at times (John Button btw was one of the best Ministers ever imho)
      Keating – a smart-alec with an inflated opinion of himself
      Howard – a generally good PM who spent nowhere near enough on infrastructure development, and who should have handed over to Costello in 2006
      Rudd – an elitist sanctimonious social democrat of The Club of Rome variety, who is responsible for the current disastrous asylum seeker policy
      Gillard – desires power and will do and say anything to hold onto it

      By my count that makes two good PMs in the past 40 years, one Labor and one Liberal. Try thinking outside that boring Labor square, Mr Smith.

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    Dave

    .
    On the Topic of UNTHREADED

    Just a sample of some unhinged Unthreaded comments on an Unthreaded POST

    1. Maybe your [snipped spacer] ED
    2. HAHAHAHAHAHAH You call that moderation![THIS is moderation] /Fly
    3. I didn’t read that part of your post because you lost the argument after you reverted to name calling.
    4. No, it’s a joke.
    5. Tony, maybe they would take your arguments more seriously if you didn’t revert to petty name calling?
    6. Why would you write such a reprehensible thing if you were only joking?
    7. Something else children need to be taught is proper paragraphing.
    8. Err, “anti-humour league”? WTF?
    9. Maybe it is you that needs to chillax?
    10. What are you, the 4th Stooge?
    11. Oh OK, so you’re just another wackaloon pledging violence because your side happened to lose a couple of elections.
    12. I have no idea what that has to do with anything I have written!!!
    13. But of course Dave is only interested in telling half of the story.
    14. Surely you are smart enough to realise
    15. What utter bullshit!
    16. This is just an astonishing statement!
    17. You’re in a dreamland
    18. The more you write the more you demonstrate you simply don’t understand
    19. WTF? Are you Dr Strangelove?
    20. Clearly Dave doesn’t know anything about economics
    21. Oh, and that slab of text you wrote is STILL improperly paragraphed which makes it annoying to read.
    22. Congratulations, you’ve just lost the debate.
    23. Oh dear, what a load of nonsense.
    24. There’s a lot of words here, but they don’t really mean anything.
    25. Actually if you cared to read some of my posts

    What an excellent contribution to debate on the CO2 TAX!
    WELL DONE to the ALP!!!
    An excellent example of the ALP’s VOICE of reason LIES

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    pat

    memo to small business. put up a sign which says:

    “We are forced to increase our prices because of Manmade Global Warming policies of the Government.”

    10 July: Australian: Sid Maher: RET to trump carbon slug on power bills, says Origin
    ORIGIN Energy chief Grant King has warned the 20 per cent renewable energy target could add more to power bills than the carbon tax by 2020 as lower grid-based electricity demand and a boom in solar roof-top panels “crowded out” coal and gas-fired electricity generators…
    The latest figures from the NSW Independent Pricing and Regulatory Tribunal put the annual cost of green schemes to the average power bill at $316 a year. The carbon tax contributed $168, with the rest attributed to the RET and other green schemes.
    In an interview with The Australian, Mr King said the almost doubling of renewable energy generation capacity that would be required under the RET’s current rules by 2020 would see the component of that bill to pay for renewable schemes grow at a faster rate than the carbon tax component.
    One of the first acts of the Climate Change Authority under the carbon pricing scheme will be to review the RET, which is supported by both the government and the Coalition…
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/carbon-tax/ret-to-trump-carbon-slug-on-power-bills-says-origin/story-fndttws1-1226422043915

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      Adam Smith

      10 July: Australian: Sid Maher: RET to trump carbon slug on power bills, says Origin

      Wow this is very, very interesting because the RET is bipartisan policy.

      It was passed without even a division in the Senate because the Government and Opposition both supported it.

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    Dave

    .
    Paul Howes hates Julia Gillard & her relationship with the GREENS!

    What are you doing to me PAUL!

    Gillard, Swan & Combet will be gone by end of year – or SHORTENR

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