Will EV’s cause more damage to the environment?
A freighter with nearly 3,000 cars on board is burning off the Netherlands. The Coastguard is working hard to try to stop the freighter sinking in a delicate environmental area. Only 25 cars are EV’s on a burning ship of 2,857 cars. No one is sure what started the fire, but a coastguard spokesperson told Reuters “it began near an electric car”. Firefighters estimate it may burn for days. Even if it didn’t start in an EV, the EV’s on board change the nature of the battle.
The fire spread so fast sadly one crew member was killed. Seven others leapt overboard and were rescued from the ocean. The ship carried a crew of 23.
UPDATE: As commenter James Murphy suggests — maybe they need to be transported like explosives can be – on the main deck, in a container that can be dumped overboard under its own weight. Just pull a pin or 2… more or less.
I’m thinking “ejection seats” for EV’s?
Just 25 EV’s among 3,000 cars
A freighter carrying nearly 3,000 cars catches fire in the North Sea and a crew member is killed
Mike Corder, AP
THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — A fire on a freight ship carrying nearly 3,000 cars was burning out of control Wednesday in the North Sea, and the Dutch coast guard said one crew member had died, others were hurt and it was working to save the vessel from sinking close to an important habitat for migratory birds.
Its location is close to a chain of Dutch and German islands popular with tourists in the shallow Wadden Sea, a World Heritage-listed area described by UNESCO as “the largest unbroken system of intertidal sand and mud flats in the world” and “one of the most important areas for migratory birds in the world.”
Earlier this year a Norwegian shipping line banned EV’s from its ferries:
Imagine the passengers jumping overboard?
CTIF News:
The Norwegian shipping company Havila Kystruten will no longer allow electric cars on board its ships, according to Norwegian Television NRK. The consequences of an electric car fire are considered too severe, states the company.
Risk analysis found lithium batteries too risky onboard. …the risk analysis found was that fires in electric cars are considered more difficult to extinguish than fires in cars powered by petrol and diesel.
Shipping transports around 90% of world trade, and fires are a regular problem. It’s only fair to mention that just two weeks ago a cargo ship carrying 1,200 new and used petrol cars caught fire and two firefighters died. Thirty years ago, around 200+ vessels were described as “total losses” each year, now it is around 40 to 60 annually. Safety has improved, but the insurance industry warns that ships are not able to deal with EV fires and they will be a growing problem.
Jump in Fires, Shadow Tanker Fleet and Economic Uncertainty Pose New Safety Challenges
Allianz on Businesswire
Potentially highly flammable lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries pose a growing risk for container shipping and car carriers.
“Most ships lack the suitable protection, detection and firefighting capabilities to tackle such fires at sea,” says [Captain Rahul Khanna, Global Head of Marine Risk Consulting at AGCS]
Fire is already one of the most frequent causes of total losses across all vessel types with 64 ships lost in the past five years alone. Meanwhile, AGCS analysis of close to 250,000 marine insurance industry claims shows that fire was also the most expensive cause of loss, accounting for 18% of the value of all claims analyzed.
h/t Colin and Helen D.
I assume there is some legal action that can be taken to hold the company that made the (assumed) EV that potentially burned down a freighter liable for the losses. Additionally, I never hear of accident investigations that determine the cause of an EV fire. The EV industry will never improve their safety record without forensic feedback from the accidents.
GL
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Hard to do forensics when the ship is under water. . .
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Even if it doesent sink, a battery fire is so intense it would destroy practically all evidence that might be useful.
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And in the other corner the reigning car fire champion representing Pickles damaged vehicle sellers:
Sydney January 2016 – blamed on faulty battery
Adelaide May 2022
WA April 2023
To further expand the theme of fires at recycling businesses:
Grafton Nov 2022
Melbourne South West Nov 2022
Yes container ships (and I believe this is the 3rd one in last 2 years) may sink but (damaged) car reseller and wreckers yards don’t so plenty of evidence to sift through or just blame arsonists.
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And in the other corner the reigning car fire champion representing Pickles damaged vehicle sellers:
Sydney January 2016 – blamed on faulty battery
Adelaide May 2022
WA April 2023
And to further expand the theme of fires at recycling businesses:
Grafton Nov 2022
Melbourne South West Nov 2022
Yes container ships (and I believe this is the 3rd one in last 2 years) may sink but (damaged) car reseller and wreckers yards don’t so plenty of evidence to sift through or just blame arsonists.
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Well now, that’s the way to get rid of “stranded assets”.
Second-hand trade-ins with no market for the dealer. Sounds a lot like an insurance job. Not done by half either.
Was it Amphitrite’s birthday?
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This has happened before and I am amazed that the Shipping Company is able to get any insurance for carrying EVs even if there are only 35 of them on board.
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Maybe they should be transported like explosives can be – on the main deck, in a container that can be dumped overboard under its own weight. Just pull a pin or 2… more or less.
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A very good point James. I hope you don’t mind, but I just added that to the post. What we need is an ejection seat for EV;s, yes?
But seriously, if they can set thermometers on the batteries and when it rises suddenly they can drop the ramp and give the car an instant sea burial? Might solve some of the risks, unless the car explodes next to the hull of course…
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Careful, whales are full of flammable oil, remember.
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Whales don’t float on top of the water and they don’t have dangerous polluting batteries.
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So: oils ain’t oils?
Dig a trench.
https://youtu.be/dcDbqQOcZps
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shipping containers are a HUGE navigational hazard for small craft.
I recall the it was Kay Cottee who raised this issue decades ago.
An “empty 40 foot container “floats” with its top about a metre below the surface.. If struck by a serious ship at “open-ocean’ speeds, the buoyant but submerged container will buckle, rupture and sink faster than the “Titan”. And the ship’s crew probably will not even hear the “bump”.
A collision involving your basic 40 ft, “adventure” yacht will see the keel ripped off or, at BEST, seriously damaged, causing capsizing and catastrophic intake of water. INSTANT “missing yacht”. Such an occurrence at NIGHT is basically a death sentence, especially in the North Atlantic in Winter. Any sane yachtie will have a big radar reflector atop the mast. These look like a very large Christmas decoration and act to scatter RADAR signals back over a large bit of ocean, hopefully being noticed on the 110 thousand Tonne Leviathan bearing down at speed.
As an aside, it is noteworthy that most of the “refugee” boats that enter Oz waters have very short or NO masts and absolutely NO sign of a simple, passive radar reflector. Quelle Surprise!! How many have been “run down” in the busiest sea-lanes in the world?
If shipping and container companies were actually responsible players, they would at least open the doors, or punch extra holes in old, unserviceable containers bound for Davey Jones Locker.
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Bruce,
“If shipping and container companies were actually responsible players, they would at least open the doors, or punch extra holes in old, unserviceable containers bound for Davey Jones Locker.”
I have never heard of shipping companies deliberately dumping used containers at sea.
Some – perhaps several thousands a year – do go missing, from ships – as a result of bad weather and incomplete lashing [or lashing failure].
Every container ship has a Container Lashing Manual; its cargo – of, for the biggest ships, 24,000+ Twenty-foot Equivalent Units [TEU – the standard measure of contain capacity for ships] – is supposed to be lashed properly. But turnround times are [unrealistically?] short, and there is, perhaps, not enough attention paid to supervision of the shore rigging crews, who have to lash many hundreds of containers at even a minor port.
And, sometimes, ships encounter severe weather. That can cause a ship to roll over 30 degrees [perhaps up to fifty] – with, if the ship is appropriately loaded, a considerable righting force – which strains the lashings.
Or breaks them.
Google could be your friend – look for the ‘ONE Apus’ 2020. A transPacific voyage leaving with some 12,000 TEU, with 1,800 boxes lost, and many more damaged.
Perhaps someone [with more tech smarts than I] could upload a picture here.
This link shows a few of the pix: –
https://www.shippingandfreightresource.com/thousands-of-containers-overboard-in-worst-containership-disaster-one-apus/
Besides, even old containers can be sold – as scrap, as storage, as housing, if not as bars or cafes [to be fitted out] for ‘Box-Park’ enterprises!
Auto
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The containers that are “decommissioned” and sold as “garden sheds” are usually rather shabby, showing lots if dents and bends and a LOT of welded patches. The insurers, like Lloyd’s, would have strict rules on container “condition”. Once “beyond economical repair”, they should be de-registered (see all that text on the door, etc) and sold into retirement or scrapping.If they are so dodgy that the anchor-points fail on an empty container in a bit of a swell, they are well beyond redemption. Then again, fully-loaded containers have been known to vanish from the open cargo decks. The practice of having a LOT of containers as high-rise deck cargo has long intrigued me. I Suspect that a lot of the upper ones are empty and being trans-shipped to where they can be filled. Sea freight is relatively inexpressive, but still a silly price just to ship dank air.
And, never mind the “Plimsoll Line”; on a “high-stack” container ship, where is the centre of gravity relative to the actual waterline?
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We already dump too much rubbish in the ocean. Another option might be to ship EVs in individual fire rated containers, although they would need a rating of more than one or two hours. Maybe the new owners could be offered these containers to park the EVs at homes instead of in garages under or attached to their houses.
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Would you rather dump a few EVs or a whole ship carrying its complete cargo load.
Maybe EVs could go on a sacrificial barge that could be let loose and sunk when in peril.
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I’m just waiting for an EV fire in the underground car park of a high rise block of apartments.
If I was buying an apartment in a high rise I would demand that the building had a no EV clause in the contract.
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I suggest you dont plan on buying any high rise apartments then !
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What? And deny pretentious w@nkers the chance to pretend they are saving Gaia? How dare you! (gratuitous Greta T quote there).
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A mere mortal gravatar these days Jo?
And a “blep” one too. 😉
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No-one ever comments on the pollution caused by sinking EVs in the sea. Maybe its not in the same class as raw sewage?
Did anyone see today’s BBC Early Morning programme piece about battery fires in e-bikes and e-scooters. Apparently these now happen every other day and there have been a number of deaths and a lot of injuries.
Suggestions were made about recharging locations and safety, even a suggestion that they be classified along with explosives and fireworks,, but no comment was made about similar problems with EVs.
I wonder why not?
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Seriously though, dumping a toxic battery into the Sea is not a good idea.
CERN the high energy physics lab near Geneva used to have a system where in the event of a fire in a lab the area was sealed and an inert gas was injected into the lab. This removes the Oxygen needed by a fire. Couldn’t a similar system be used for these batteries ? Or will they burn without oxygen ?
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That’s the whole problem with these batteries, they don’t need oxygen. If they did, putting the car in a river or bath would stop the fire, but it doesn’t. Likewise we can’t use fire extinguisher foam. All the energy the battery uses is contained in the battery. It is unstoppable. Maybe if we could cool it with liquid nitrogen we might slow it down, but just as likely — given the 600 fold expansion of nitrogen — it would create different explosions.
Dumping cars in the ocean would make a terrible shipping hazard I agree. I just found the image of ejector cars funny.
Seriously, perhaps one day they will get infra red detectors and an early detection system running, but apart from ejecting it or encasing it in some kind of “pop up” 6 in thick ceramic-foam (if such a thing exists) that had an exhaust vent to the get rid of heat and gases safely, I don’t know how we make it safe.
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“maybe they need to be transported like explosives can be – on the main deck”. HaHa. With a sign on each EV which read S.H.I.T. Because that’s how that rude word was derived. When manure was transported years ago, it was always stored on the upper deck, because it had a tendency to, you know, blow up. So containers of manure were initialled with S.H.I.T- which stands for Ship ( or store ?) High in Transit.
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I’ve heard of P.O.S.H (Port output and starboard home for the upper class sailing from the UK to India and back to ensure the noon day sun did not overheat their cabin) but S.H.I.T is a new one. Love it!
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Not so – unless you are joking. It’s a very old Germanic word that goes back at last a thousand years.
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Does the “carbon (sic) footprint” for this fire get added to the EVs, the ICE cars or the ship?
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4,000 cars on the earlier sinking ship has seen a dramatic rise in scarcity/price of cars. New cars are practically rationed already, and second hand cars are ridiculously expensive.
This can only make that worse.
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Totally unrelated.!
4000 cars represents less than 0.1% of annual car sales in Australia,..(let alone the USA where that ship was actually going).
New car shortages are due to component shortage issues following on from the Covid shut down of the manufacturing supply chain .
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Totally? It’s all in the mix.
Long experience has shown that a small undersupply or oversupply can have a greatly exaggerated effect on the price.
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At present there is no confirmation that it was an electric car that caught fire. The BBC report originally said it was, according to the coastguard, but that was changed to ‘started near an EV’. AS you say there is a Norwegian line that refuses to carry them after a catastrophic fire last year.
There have been lots of stories of low grade Scooter batteries catching fire and some of Ev’s catching fire when being charged
At present their safety is unclear. It may be that when new, they have fewer fires, but if there is one the results are catastrophic and long lasting. Their safety when the batteries are older and have been recharged badly numerous times is another matter
The Channel Tunnel between England and France allows them as do multi storey car parks. If there was a conflagration in the tunnel the consequences are too awful to contemplate. As regards multi storey car parks it is difficult to see how fire appliances could get up the ramps. Personally I would also feel uneasy at EV’s parking and charging underneath a residential building block.
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The building I live in had an EV parked in the car park under the building for awhile, I was very relieved when the person moved out.
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Which EVs have what kind of batteries?
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tonyb (4.59am). It makes no difference whether it was an EV or an ICE which first caught fire. Or if it was a bloke who threw a match away after lighting a cigarette.
Whatever way an EV catches fire, THEY are the problem.
[Mantary is not Mantaray – LVA]
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How would an ICE vehicle catch fire?
Its been a few decades since I’ve watched RORO vehicles unloading in Sydney, but I expect the protocols are essentially the same.
The vehicles are transported without batteries or fuel. At the destination port a service vehicle with two occupants drives aboard with a battery and some fuel, which is transferred to the unloading vehicle which is started and driven ashore followed by the service vehicle. The tedious process is repeated until the operation is complete.
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Highly unlikely these days. They are driven on, and driven off and they are placed in ” transport mode ” so the cars battery lasts the voyage. How do I know…I was talking to my salesman recently who explained the whole process to me, and one of the delays in moving cars, being getting enough humans to move them onto the ship, and back off. I’ve also seen a TV program on the subject, showing how the whole process works. It is also time consuming…it takes at least 24 hours to unload circa 3000 cars.
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Glenn,
Yes.
Back in the Early Old Stone Age, in the Thatcherite 1980s, at Bristol, UK, every Port employee with a valid driving licence was offered overtime to drive cars on [or off] car carriers. Not a few friends were also employed as casual labour.
Today, with the International Ship & Port Security Code, that would not happen. [In theory!].
I guess it was similar in other ports – but I don’t know for a fact.
Auto
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Will the Lamestream media bother to mention that there are EVs are onboard and they likely started the fire?
Even if the EVs didn’t start the fire, once they start burning, the fire is uncontrollable and has to be allowed to burn our naturally with l8mited ability to properly extinguish it.
Fire departments either smother the vehicle in a special water cooled box lowered over the vehicle (if access is possible and they have the equipment) or use tens of thousands of litres of water to keep the battery cool for a long time, bearing in mind that battery packs can reignite once the fire is apparently extinguished.
SEE LINK FOR REST
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Earlier this month a ship transporting some 3,000 cars caught fire in Port Newark, New Jersey. Two firefighters died. Reportedly no EVs on that ship.
https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/two-firefighters-dead-after-ship-fire-at-port-newark/
I wonder why cars burning on a ship always produce a white smoke?
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Fires still occur and are still tragic but EV fires are special because of their high temperatures, ability to reignite after apparent extinguishment, their ability to burn without oxygen (the battery supplies its own oxygen), the especially toxic smoke (including hydrofluoric acid) and the requirement for tens of thousands of litres of cooling water for a long time.
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Have you seen what happens when water is played onto an EV battery fire?
Kaboom! hardly describes it.
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It’s standard procedure for fire departments to pour vast amounts of water in it.
The following refers to and the described incident happened in Canberra.
SEE LINK FOR REST
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What happens to the ‘vast amount of water’ if it gets into a drain or watercourse?
How polluted is the water and what with?
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An actual Tesla on actual fire:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQqkbSJA6Io
So, what is the REAL agenda?
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The “white smoke” you mention is more than likely steam from the fire control system spraying water on the fire/hot metal.
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Also, depending on the car brand and construction,..many modern cars have a high proportion of Aluminium alloys and Magnesium in their construction ..body panels, engine transmission components, suspension parts, wheels , etc etc.
Some of those produce white/ pale smoke when ignited ..and are also very difficult to extinguish !
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New pope elected
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At the IPCC
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66324275
Auto, taking the good perfesser’s comments with a pinch of salt – notably inclusivity, and ‘following the science’, here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66316923 – though not in today’s propaganda from Aunty Beeb.
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Will the Lamestream media bother to mention that there are EVs are onboard and they likely started the fire?
Even if the EVs didn’t start the fire, once they start burning, the fire is uncontrollable and has to be allowed to burn our naturally with limited ability to properly extinguish it.
Fire departments either smother the vehicle in a special water cooled box lowered over the vehicle (if access is possible and they have the equipment) or use tens of thousands of litres of water to keep the battery cool for a long time, bearing in mind that battery packs can reignite once the fire is apparently extinguished.
SEE LINK FOR REST
[Wee edit, spelling and length – LVA]
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Will those Chinese EVs remain in China should shipping lines/insurers consider transporting them too big a risk? Will EVs be allowed on the Tasmanian Spirit 1 and 11? I crossed on it recently and don’t fancy a swim in Bass Strait.
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The loading staff should have asked if your vehicle was an EV. Maybe not if it is a truck. The last four times I have crossed on the Spirit, they asked if my car was EV. My diesel sedan is 2008 vintage so would be obvious to most that it will not be an EV but the question was asked. I get the impression it is a required question similar to -are you carrying any plants?
Spirit certainly have EVs on board but I think they have a special location for them.
Last time I was boarding in Devenport, there were 5 Teslas lined up in the spare lane. They were unregistered dealer cars probably being returned to the big island because they could not be sold in Tasmania. They did not board on my trip so I expect they were waiting for a sailing with lower demand and cheaper cost.
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As a further subsidy to EVs I can see the more woke governments like Australia’s forcing insurance companies to equalise risk between ICE and EV vehicles.
Thus more insurance will be charged for ICE vehicles to subsidise the higher risk of catastrophic fires that also spread from EVs
plus
a higher cost to repair EVs due to battery damage which causes an insurance write-off even with apparent minor damage
plus
repairers having to have extra space and separation of damaged EVs (which we recently discussed on this blog).
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From the first link in the post
‘ Earlier this month, two New Jersey firefighters were killed and five injured battling a blaze on a cargo ship carrying hundreds of vehicles. There were no electric cars on that vessel, the operator said.’
So not just EV’s
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That fire was apparently in the engine room whilst the ship was undergoing maintenance from what I have read…so not an ICE fire or an EV fire.
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The character of EV fires is different to ICE fires or indeed most other fires.
SEE my comment at #6.1 above.
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Quite correct Peter. While not common, it is a concern that EV’s have a propensity to combust spontaneously.
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Here is a (sorry its Bing) collection for consideration.
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Note the topic of the Tue 22 Aug midday session in this upcoming engineering conference.
I don’t know what the solution will be but there is certainly a set of people thinking about it.
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Are they missing ‘and deaths’?
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“So not just EV’s” No one said it was.
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That’s what the operator said. Much the same as having a government investigate itself or have the lunatics manage the asylum..
Let’s see an independent investigator chosen by at least two independent assessor’s make those judgments ,
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What makes this more problematic is that with the current grids electric cars in most jurisdictions create more emissions than do petrol cars ( as shown in the VW e to the VW diesel comparison that was referred to in a Jo Nova article a few months ago) . It shows that because of the substantially higher amount of emissions in the production process that over a 200000 kilometre life cycle of the e vehicle using a German , US or Chinese energy mix the total emissions of the electric car exceed the diesel . Only with an EU mix ( which would include countries with hydro and nuclear reliance) were emissions less over those kilometres. In fact with the EU mix electric vehicles had less total emissions only after the car was driven 125000 kilometres ( probably equivalent to 10 years or more of commuter driving) . So what’s the point? You don’t save the planet and in fact with the fire hazard you make it more dangerous.
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“So what’s the point? You don’t save the planet and in fact with the fire hazard you make it more dangerous.”
It has become apparent there is no point, it’s just another component of the BS we are being sold that humans are heating the planet and that we have to terraform the planet to save ourselves.
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Actually, There is a very valid point that you overlook..
..the whole CO2 and emissions comparason is irrelavent, BUT the reduction of fuel (petrol, diesel, ..OIL) usage is very important.
Few informed people would argue that we can maintain a practical lifestyle without having oil , and oil derived products readily available, OR that oil is an infinite resource.
Society grinds to a halt rapidly without oil .
Oil may never run out completely, but until substitutes can be developed in quantity, we should take measures to conserve oil usage for those critical applications where we have no alternatives.
Transportation is a major consumer of oil, so if there is a viable , practical, alternative …such as EVs ( powered by coal !) …then that should be encouraged.
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Chad. Conserving makes no real difference. Say we reduce usage by 10% world wide that might extend the readily available oil from say 100 to 110 years. Also most of the worlds population are grateful to those westerns who conserve as it just makes more available for them
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Hmm ?..10 years sounds like a “real difference” to me !
It sounds like you do not appreciate the importance of oil ?
The consequences of significant major oil shortages go way beyond price increases, ….it will cripple our transport and distribution systems leading to shortages of many daily essentials (food ?) and services, …
….eventually major international conflicts over resources ( IE world wars !)
Anything that avoids that , or even just gives a few more years of development for alternatives,..has to be worth it.
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Most of us here don’t believe in the CO2 crap but we a dealing with idiots who do, so surely there is nothing better than to point out that their ‘solution’ to the ‘problem’ actually produces more CO2 and more pollution?
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Even new EV fires are more difficult to extinguish and older batteries would be more dangerous.
But their reduction in so called co2 emissions are very small and a number of studies raise doubts about the availability of the rare earth materials required to replace ICE vehicles.
So very minor change for future co2 emissions for a small EV that costs twice as much as an ICE car. And within 10 years you have to replace the battery or try to trade in on another very expensive EV small car.
Does any of this make any sense? Certainly no measurable change to the temp or climate by 2050 or 2100, but more TRILLIONs of $ wasted for ZIP.
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And EVs can’t solve gridlock and parking woes either, so what’s the point.
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Battery cars are perfect for automated cars which is part of their impractical dream where there is no need to own a car as you can just order up an automated car when you need one. They haven’t considered where all these cars will be kept and charged up – or what with – or the effect of 1000s of these cars roaming around. And that is before we get to the safety issues and other problems with their automation.
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As I have mentioned before, the ultimate goal of the Elites, if we allow them to get away with it, is to get rid of all personal transport for non-Elites (Ref. 1).
Safety issues with EVs, especially in high density housing areas which are also being encouraged/forced, may well be the trigger to restrict use of EVs even after ICE vehicles have been banned.
In addition,
– EVs remain unaffordable for most ordinary working people.
– electricity is becoming or is already unaffordable for many people.
– there soon won’t be enough coal, gas, nuclear or real hydro (not SH2) power stations to charge them.
The 15 minute city (Ref. 2) will be sold as the answer.
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The madness just seems to continue at their ABC. This morning they yapped about replacing all diesel powered tractors and all other machinery on Aussie farms.
Big problems for the monster batteries required, but they said hydrogen could be the answer, but this is all very new and many more years of research required before they find an answer.
Unbelievable but true and many more TRILLIONs $ WASTED to replace a system that today works very well.
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Obviously none of the professional propagandists at Their ABC have ever visited a farm (well maybe a collective farm in the USSR, back in the day).
An EV can barely tow anything, if at all.
How do they suppose an electric tractor could tow a plow which requires a huge sustained torque for many hours?
As for liquid hydrogen, it is a nightmare to handle, even for NASA. It is not a consumer or commercial fuel.
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But David electric motors provide excellent torque and the weight of the battery enables the vehicle to provide traction.
So where’s the problem? Is it the short period between recharges?
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Are you going to install chargers out on the broadacre farms of today, be real.
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sustained torque for many hours is the issue as I said. Frequent, long recharges are the issue. An ICE tractor can and does work continuously, all day, and all night if necessary on a single tank of fuel, especially the automated GPS guided tractors with no driver.
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Yes, you did say that. I didn’t make the connection between the words “for many hours” and the need for frequent and long recharge periods.
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Why mess with a fuel source that works perfectly well already? Modern diesel engines are a creation of engineering beauty. Incredible torque, power and with each new generation the engines are even more economical to run.
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Forgot to mention- also really clean exhaust and super quiet.
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There’s a trade-off between weight, traction and soil compaction. There’s an optimum drive wheel slippage rate for efficient operation.
Two wheel drive and front wheel assist tractors max out about 120 hp and 3 tons dry (4 – 5 tons with fuel and water in tyres)
Four wheel drive tractors max out around 300 hp and 6 tons dry (8 – 10 wet)
The newer high powered tractors tend to use rubber tracks, which give excellent traction for lower soil compaction.
The other big bit of farm equipment is the header (combine harvester). These are also in the 200 hop range, but most of that power is used to drive the cutter bar, comb, elevators, grain auger, and especially the drum. Less weight is better for these, to maximise the grain storage capacity.
Well, I’m way behind the times. The John Deere X9 1100 header is almost 700 hp and has a grain bin capacity of 12 tonnes.
The biggest tractor has a similar power output (650 rated hp, 470 rated kW) , and is around 21 tons.
470 kW equates to 5.6 MWh for 12 hours of operation.
As David said, during peak periods (eg sowing), you try to work them around the clock. The only breaks are for refuelling, checking fluids, etc, every 12 hours or so. and more frequently to fill the seed hopper. The trucks with the supplies are taken to the paddock, if not all the way to the tractor.
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All of that reminds me of my days on the family farm years ago. It also reminds me of how little family farming is left.
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Not sure where you are FG, but the bulk of farms in Australia are still family owned. It’s just that the old” quarter mile block” has just increased to 100 /1000’s of hectares – but still owned by families who have corporatised and become way more efficient.
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“and the weight of the battery” Will make it easier to get them bogged.
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David, have you seen those “EVs” that haul 400 tons of coal up from the bottom of open cast mines ?
And .. https://youtu.be/TJOyITolHUk
Sure, they all have limitations , and nodoubt high costs currently, ..but they are making progress.
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In the real world, farming tractors run 16 hours a day at near full torque. Where’s the battery that can do that?
Show us that and then you have a point. Otherwise, this is a nonsense position. “Making Progress” from absolutely impossible to farcical isn’t a meaningful improvement. Demonstrate that battery powered tractors can perform a full harvest in the same time, with the same maintenance, and the same refuelling intervals, as can be had with diesel tractors, and then you might have a point worth making.
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..and you dont think mines operate 18 hrs a day ?
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Yep, during broadacre sowing season in Australia, some tractors run almost 24/7 for weeks.
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More guff from the State Sponsored Propaganda Specialists.
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Imagine the resulting conflagration when a battery powered tractor ignites the nearby bush and grasslands.
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I still waiting for the EV firetrucks
cant believe this is not top of any discussion on EV’s for everything given Australia’s propensity to go up in flames every few years.
not to imagine the inability for country areas to evacuate. Last big fires destroyed the power lines, so no power = no escape. smoke blanked out all of the solar panels so no power from there either.
50
I covered this a few months ago.
It’s already been done.
Global giant JCB have a hydrogen tractor. 😊
01
Caterpillar and Komatsu are working on that as well.
Cat has gensets in production, but it’s probably easier to supply fuel to stationary equipment than mobile.
10
Supplying hydrogen is never easy, or simple ….stationary or mobile .
Anyway, why H2 fueled genset ? …until green H2 is economically available, it seems pointless.
They may as well stick with NGas fueled piston engines, or go with gas turbines.
30
It should be a lot easier to stick a couple of bloody great tanks on the ground alongside a genset than carry them on a tractor.
I assume the idea of the genset is to be able to skite about having an actual product to keep up with the Joneses or JCBs as the case may be)
20
Where does the hydrogen come from ? How is it produced ? Here we go again, the wheel goes around and around. It really is lunacy.
30
Insurance issues for carrying EVs. LINKS
https://www.atlas-mag.net/en/article/electric-vehicle-transport-a-new-challenge-for-marine-insurance
According to Allianz Global Corporate & Specialty’s (AGCS) annual “Safety and Shipping Review 2022», the transportation of electric vehicles could be a new challenge for marine insurance.
https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/scorched-cars-burn-insurers-facing-higher-risks-from-electric-vehicle-transport-69252443
Scorched cars burn insurers facing higher risks from electric vehicle transport
https://lloydslist.maritimeintelligence.informa.com/LL1141339/New-vessel-type-could-be-needed-to-carry-electric-vehicles
New vessel type could be needed to carry electric vehicles
Lithium-ion batteries can enter into an uncontrollable self-heating state in event of a fire, warns protection and indemnity insurance specialist
https://garagewire.co.uk/news/must-read/electric-vehicle-demand-could-see-spike-in-shipping-fires-insurance-firm-warns/
Electric vehicle demand could see spike in shipping fires, insurance firm warns
Fire containment systems on older ships “not designed” to cope with chemical fires
https://commercial.allianz.com/news-and-insights/reports/lithium-ion-batteries.html
Lithium-ion batteries: fire risks and loss prevention measures in shipping
100
What are the insurance premiums & conditions for an EV of, let’s say the equivalent of :-
1). Hyundai i30 ICE.
2). Toyota Camry ICE
I would imagine they’d be considerably higher for the obvious reason of difference in sale price. What are the add on costs & conditions.
40
Here in California, insurance rates for EV’s are 50-100% higher than they are for ICE cars.
One factor: With the dominant brand (Telsa) if is hard to obtain replacement parts and they are very expensive.
Another: EV’s involved in minor fender benders are often declared a total loss. This because of the small possibility of damage to the batteries. Rather than take that risk, they write of the whole vehicle.
90
Four years ago we were aware we had a problem with the direction we were heading.
Have we made any progress?
A bit of waffle at the start, but there are good questions at the end.
Kalm Keith
October 22, 2019 at 2:48 am
” Where are they?”
Exactly; they’re hiding behind their pay packets.
And if Mr. Pitman is a “Climate Modeller”, enough said.
Modelling can be a highly valuable procedure in some industrial analyses where inputs and outputs can be clearly linked but that is not the case with so called climate modelling which has sought to link atmospheric CO2 levels with “The Weather”.
The chronic introduction of “renewables” into Australia’s residential and industrial has had two major effects;
1. Every household in Australia in now paying a $1,000 p.a. surcharge on their power bills, and
2. Industry in Australia has been decimated by electricity surcharges related to “Climate Change Actions”.
Heartache aplenty for the peasants but lots of “skimming” by the Elites when aud $6 billion in electricity surcharges is turned over every year.
But don’t worry, all will be well when Michael Mann arrives at the UNSW next year to take up his sinecure.
Will that be alongside “Prof” Pitman?
http://joannenova.com.au/2019/10/weekend-unthreaded-282/#comment-2207771
Australia is now a country so deeply mired in the Renewables “thing” the even businesses that are simply offices are struggling to deal with their power bills.
Industry left years ago. Australians have been enslaved and damaged by the Climate Change Industry and that fact is no credit to our politicians and universities which participate in the scheme.
KK
140
Michael Mann coming to the UNSW?
How the mighty have fallen!
71
Oooh. I’ve upset somebody.
Such is life!
40
Why is Mann coming?
To promote his fake “hockey stick” graph?
Australians aren’t already subject to enough climate propaganda?
Who’s paying for him?
Taxpayers or subsidy harvesters or both?
110
That may have been a rumour four years ago.
Since then we have been further “crushed and drained” through the Covid19 drama.
More of our “hard earned” just taken to make and uplift the lives of Mr Schwab, his sister, Analise, Soros, BGates, Ghunt, our own Julie B and top of the pile Tawdry Anhydrous.
They all have great aspirations.
For themselves.
50
G’day DM,
It’s past tense. He’s been. And gone, thank heaven.
KK’s article is dated 2019.
40
Imagine if you will a ship powered by Green fuel (hydrogen/ammonia) transporting fertiliser and EV’s in a bad storm . Not a good time to be crew .
110
well, the climate change lobby did predict the earth would burn…
70
Letter to Interislander Ferry Company in NZ sent today
Do you carry EVs on your ferries?
In view of the linked article which also features in The Telegraph is it safe to travel on a ship which also carries EVs
https://joannenova.com.au/2023/07/freighter-with-nearly-3000-cars-burns-out-of-control-near-dutch-world-heritage-area/#comments
I recall a few months ago a similar ship fire off the european coast where the car ship carrying EV was left to sink as the fire was not able to be extinguished.
Your booking system does not appear record which vehicles are EV or not
140
The solution has already been revealed; get people who buy sensible cars to pay extra insurance to cover the virtue signallers.
50
Never forget that we’re supposed to be changing to EVs etc to help change the climate and reduce our co2 emissions to achieve NET ZERO by 2040 or 2050 or ……?
Here’s the relative change since Hansen’s BS speech in Washington DC in 1988.
So can anyone tell us how that will ever change or turn around by 2040 or 2070 or 2100?
So why don’t they just ask China, India or other Asian countries etc and find out the correct answer?
Silly Kerry tried a week ago and was very disappointed.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co2-emissions-per-country?stackMode=relative&time=1988..latest&country=Non-OECD+%28GCP%29~OECD+%28GCP%29
30
I’m sorry but the software doesn’t allow me to copy the altered link since 1988.
So here’s the full link.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co2-emissions-per-country?stackMode=relative&country=OECD+%28GCP%29~Non-OECD+%28GCP%29
40
And that would not include people living in rural circumstances, still in much of the world, where cooking and living with wood, coal, dung and other non accountable sources predominates.
Are we missing part of the picture.
30
A while back there was an article pointing out that the third world uses fossil fuel for heating and lighting about equivalent to the amount of jet fuel used per year in USA.
They’ll be really excited to go back to dung etc won’t they?
30
Neville
‘ask China’ it is suggested.
This is an existential crisis.
All human life is at stake.
We must act resolutely, immediately
Indeed – all life on the planet will vanish in a few short weeks.
[Have I misremembered, or misquoted, Biden, Bojo, David Attenborough, the loon running the UN, or John Kerry? Or the rest of the gravy trainers?
Oh dear. So sad. Never mind].
Surely The Resident of America will be so keen to solve this apocalyptic problem that he will nuke China.
They’re burning over 150 million tonnes of coal – every week.
Auto.
Yes. /S for the Alarmist lap-dogs reading here.
30
Imagine an EV parked in your garage, left on charge overnight whilst you and your family are asleep. I’m guessing that doesn’t help with people’s next vehicle decision.
80
Doesn’t bear thinking about.
60
Each EV should be on a trebuchet that launches via a heat sensor near the battery.
70
Like this?
https://youtu.be/CyCJ69GU974
30
Didn’t go quite to plan…
10
Actually, the battery fire issue has been addressed in a few ways by different companies years ago but there’s the full testing, refinement, cost reduction and adoption phase that’s holding things up.
Batteries with the new flame-retardant collectors (bottom row) produced weak flames that went out within a few seconds, and did not flare up again even when the scientists tried to relight them.
The combustion issues in Li-ion batteries are related to the electrolyte and separator that are not used within the recommended temperatures and voltage windows.
“One of the key innovations in our novel current collector is that we are able to embed fire retardant inside without sacrificing the energy density and mechanical strength of the current collector,” said Ye. “Whenever the battery has combustion issues, our current collector will instantaneously release the fire retardant and extinguish the fire. Such function cannot be achieved with traditional copper or aluminum current collector.”
The researchers have patented the technology and are in discussions with battery manufacturers for commercialization. Cui and his team have already worked out some of the costs associated with adopting the polymer and they appear attractive. According to Ye, the cost of the polymer composite charge collector is around $1.3 per m2, which is a bit lower than the cost of copper foil, which is around $1.4 per m2. With these encouraging numbers, Ye added: “We are expecting industry to adopt this technology within the next few years.”
https://spectrum.ieee.org/liion-batteries-more-efficient-fireproof
11
A couple of observations (and questions):
Liability insurance for country sporting clubs is beginning to make “playing sports” a serious financial commitment (if not shutting the facilities down completely). Will the cost of insurance spark a re-invigoration of Australian manufacturing when the cost of delivering overseas manufactured goods becomes “too high”?
Almost all train traction in the USA is provided by “engines” that are powered by “diesel-electric” units. The constant speed of the dedicated ICE devices used to power the electric generators permits better fuel economy (and theoretically less “pollution”). Will this be the final solution for heavy duty farming equipment?
20
Le Tourneau was doing this with heavy earthmoving equipment in the 1950s, but that was apparently to simplify the drive line.
00
The Danes have just come up with something interesting – see page 40 of this PDF that I’ve compiled about ‘renewables’:
This is one of the optional ‘side-bits’ to this introduction starting point: which is the start to enabling viewers to discover what’s happening right now in nuclear energy and, hopefully, without ‘blowing brains’ at the outset …..
30
This incident may have implications for the insurance premiums for ships carrying such EV loaded cargoes. I fear they will rise significantly, impeding the maritime transport of for instance the VW ev plant (brand new) in Emden, Germany.
20
I saw a program about disasters. One incident involved a multistory carpark, I think in Liverpool [UK].
A car caught fire and set fire to surrounding cars and this started a chain reaction. Burning petrol flowed down to lower levels spreading the fire to other stories. The whole carpark was destroyed and almost all the cars.
While it did lead to a redesign of NEW carparks many old ones still exist.
How soon will an EV cause a similar incident. It could mean a ban of EVs in multistory and underground carparks. As many [most?] EVs are used for shopping or work they will often be parked in these kind of areas. A ban would cripple the market for EVs.
10
Some interesting items here
“What Happens When an EV Catches Fire At Sea? Lost Ship of 2857 Cars and One Dead Crew”
https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2023/07/27/what-happens-when-an-ev-catches-fire-at-sea-lost-ship-of-2857-cars-and-one-dead-crew/
And in comments there
20
Hi all,
Latest update from the NL:
Ship is 25 km north of the Dutch island of Terschelling.
South of the island is world heritage wadden sea area.
Towing connection is made by the salvaging companies.
But they are not staying onboard.
Temperature is declining on the ship.
Not 25, but 498 EV on board.
Total amount of cars: 3783
Regards,
Wilco
10
Sinking cargo ship carrying more than 3,700 cars is still burning at sea two days after fire ’caused by electric car’ broke out
00
The ship is not sinking.
At least not yet.
An anonymus source stated that the fire started around an EV.
But the root cause is under investigation.
So we won’t hear anything soon about that.
Petrol fire would produce black smoke.
And could be extinguished by shutting of the oxygen with water, foam or CO2.
EV batteries on fire can’t be extinguished.
Shutting off the oxygen doesn’t help.
They let them just burn out.
And they don’t generate black smoke either, rather grey smoke from the heat.
So that’s what you see on the pictures and videos.
The vessel is still afloat.
It’s being cooled down by spaying the sides, but not the deck.
They won’t risk sinking it.
It will towed away from the nearby shipping lanes for some 15 km.
If it is still burning no harbour will let it in.
Car brands in the cargo: Mercedes Benz, BMW, Mini.
10
They let the ship burn out at sea.
No environmental disaster.
After the fire has burnt out, at august 3th the ship was towed in to the nearby cargo harbour of Eemshaven in the NL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N19jH5a7Ybk
Kustwacht = Coast guard
You can clearly see how the cargo bay has burnt out.
Never mind the concentration of windturbines around the harbour.
In all sizes and year of construction.
They are like toys compared to also present modern coal and gas fired electricity power plants.
And the landing of gas supply from the nearby natural gas exploration platforms at sea.
00