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Time to lockdown China for its dishonesty

The one thing China may have successfully done with the CCPVirus is to rally the rest of the world to say Enough. Enough of the crass mercenary games, the self-serving lies, and enough of the reckless hygiene or leaky labs.

We all helped to make China what it is, by buying the cheap goods, by selling our manufacturing base, ignoring the ethical quagmire and by assuming that China would follow in the footsteps of Japan, Taiwan and Korea.

And as we speak, Chinese military ships are plying the waters of the South China Sea. While China is sending doctors and PPE to Malaysia to fight the pandemic, the Malaysian government is not publicly protesting the prolonged and close presence of the Chinese Navy. (h/t Dave B)

Time to put China on lockdown for its dishonesty amid coronavirus crisis

Glenn Harlan Reynolds, USA Today

China needs to be isolated from the civilized world until its behavior improves. We are in the current situation, with deaths and economic devastation worldwide, because China handled this outbreak with its trademark mixture of dishonesty, incompetence and thuggery. Were China a more civilized nation, this outbreak would have been stopped early…

… wherever the virus came from, China’s response was inept, dishonest and utterly inconsiderate of the rest of the world. A competent, honest response would have placed the world on notice much earlier. A China that cared about the rest of the world would have halted flights abroad while this disease was spreading, instead of allowing its citizens to spread willy-nilly around the globe. (As Brian Kennedy writes: “China seems to have taken the position that if they were to suffer the coronavirus, so too was the United States and the rest of the world….

 Among other things, the United States — and ideally the world community at large — need to sharply reduce economic relations with China. In particular, no one should be relying on them for medicines, medical equipment and other vital goods. (China’s state news service threatened to plunge America into a “mighty sea” of coronavirus by withholding critical medications.) Chinese scientists should no longer have easy access to Western laboratories or universities. Chinese political leaders should no longer find it easy to travel the world.

Congress should pass legislation stripping the Chinese government of sovereign immunity to lawsuits for COVID-19 damage in the United States. China should be stripped of its leadership roles in international organizations. And finally, Taiwan — a nation that has handled the outbreak better than almost any other nation, but has been excluded from the World Health Organization because its membership would offend the Chinese government — deserves membership in WHO, and full diplomatic recognition from the United States, and the rest of the world.

Read it all..

Glenn Harlan Reynolds, a University of Tennessee law professor and the author of “The New School: How the Information Age Will Save American Education from Itself,” is a member of USA TODAY’s Board of Contributors.

In late January Tedros-head-of-the-WHO raved about President Xi’s handling of the novel coronavirus, which our ABC radio played in full as a non-stop five minute grovel, with no questions asked about whether he had any role in China’s $13 billion Belt and Road program loan to Ethiopia (which it was struggling to pay) and whether that might have compromised his judgement.

A few days later Professor John Mackenzie, a Senior WHO Expert on the Novel Coronavirus Emergency Committee delivered a savage reply, calling China’s response “reprehensible”.( Thanks to commenter Sunni Bakchat.)

WHO expert says China too slow to report coronavirus cases,

Financial Times

The stinging criticism from Prof John Mackenzie, a member of the World Health Organization’s emergency committee, … labelled China’s response “reprehensible” and said it defied logic that there was no increase in new cases at the same time that Chinese officials were holding local political meetings in January.

“There must have been more cases happening that we weren’t being told about. I think they tried to keep the figures quiet for a while because of some major meeting they had in Wuhan but I think there was a period of very poor reporting, or very poor communication,” he said.

As it happens, I was lucky enough to learn virology from the same John Mackenzie, one of my all-time favourite lecturers, long ago at UWA. He was sharp as, and a font of hilarious and captivating tales of viral trickery, havoc and mayhem. I’m delighted to see him in the fray showing that though the UN is an unsalvagable, troughing, corrupt organisation, there are still a few good people in there among the political climbers.

Tedros was forced to reply to this accusation and pretty much said no one should pick on him til after there was a long deferred review, and he’d retired or something. And could he have another half a billion dollars. And besides John Mackenzie wasn’t a WHO staffer. (He’s just a member of the Emergency Committee on Coronavirus.) As if that mattered. It was that pathetic.

What follows is one long weaseling excuse, but where were the Western Media?

WHO chief again deflects criticism of China and seeks US$675 million in aid

Bavan Jaiopragas, South China Morning Post

Speaking at a press conference in Geneva, WHO chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said China should only be criticised for its response to the crisis if an “after action review” justifies doing so. Tedros was responding to media comments by John Mackenzie, an epidemiologist who is part of the world body’s emergency committee, that Beijing’s early response to the outbreak had been “reprehensible”.

Tedros, who has been criticised for repeatedly praising China, tried to steer the topic away from Beijing’s actions when asked about Mackenzie’s comments. “Again, I say let’s check,” the director general said. “Maybe we will have the after-action review to see if there was something hidden or not … we will have scientists who will understand, investigate and tell us the truth. “Now as a global community, please let’s focus on the actions we can take today.”

He added that if China had actually been hiding case reports, the number of infections now would be higher than it is.

Moreover, he said, McKenzie, an emeritus professor at Australia’s Curtin University, was not a WHO staff member.

Below, Sunni Bakchat compiled some of the relevant clauses from the WHO Pandemic Guidelines that China was supposed to meet for those of you with legal minds and an eye for detail.

““China’s embassy shot back that they reported everything according to WHO guidelines”.

The WHO has had a “China friendly” Director General since November, 2006. Dr Ghebreyesus’s predecessor was Dr. Chan (3).
The WHO Influenza Pandemic Guidelines (“IPG”) for want of any other identifiable pandemic guidelines appear to govern the member countries responses (1).

The WHO Influenza Pandemic Guidelines are taken from The International Health Regulations of 2005 (“IHR”) (implemented 2007) (2).

China is a conditional signatory to the IHR (7) as at 2007; The conditions state “Indicates that a State Party has submitted, to the Director-General of WHO, documentation related to the International Health Regulations (2005), which has been circulated by the Director-General to all Member States of WHO as well as to other States eligible to become Parties to the Regulations pursuant to Article 64 thereof.”. This circular (8) was approved on an undisclosed date after Dr. Chan’s appointment as director General. The circular includes a formally translated statement regarding implementation of the IHR’s. At clause two it states; “The Ministry of health of the people’s republic of China is designated as china’s focal point, pursuant to paragraph 1 of Article 4 of the IHR. The local health administrative authorities are the health authorities responsible for the implementation of the IHR in their respective jurisdictions. The general administration of quality supervision, inspection and quarantine of the People’s Republic of China and its local offices are the competent authorities of the points of entry referred to in article 22 of the IHR”. Presumably the Ministry of Health, Implementers and local authorities are different authorities. Article 22 of the IHR (9) at Page 25, Clause 1(i) states “The competent authorities shall:” inter alia “communicate with the National IHR Focal Point on the relevant public health measures taken pursuant to these Regulations.”

Will we ever find out from China when the first communication with the National IHR focal point occurred? A published timeline from The WHO (11) suggests knowledge of the extent and potential severity of the disease in early January when the wet markets had already been closed for disinfection.

Article 22 of the IHR at Page 25, Clause 1(g) states “The competent authorities shall:” inter alia “be responsible for supervision of service providers for services concerning travellers, baggage, cargo, containers, conveyances, goods, postal parcels and human remains at points of entry, including the conduct of inspections and medical examinations as necessary;”. Point of entry is defined under the IHR’s as revised on the 23rd May, 2005 as “a passage for international entry or exit of travellers, baggage, cargo, containers, conveyances, goods and postal parcels as well as agencies and areas providing services to them on entry or exit;” The aforementioned timeline from The WHO (11) states in relation to Wuhan “Since 14 January 2020, 35 infrared thermometers have been installed in airports, railway stations, long-distance bus stations, and ferry terminals;”.

This indicates an implementation of the required measures in a time frame inconsistent with containment imperatives. There had already been a case identified in Thailand by the 13th January. China had already shared the sequenced genetic code for use by other countries by the 12th January.

Article 22 of the IHR at Page 25, Clause 1(d) states “The competent authorities shall:” inter alia “advise conveyance operators, as far in advance as possible, of their intent to apply control measures to a conveyance, and shall provide, where available, written information concerning the methods to be employed;”.

The People’s Daily newspaper announced on January 22nd the Authority’s notification of discontinuation of all public conveyance from Wuhan commencing January 23rd at 10:00am local (10). It thus appears compliance with Article 22 of the IHR’s occurred on January 23rd.

The WHO can make a formal declaration under the IHR’s for a “Public Health Emergency of International Concern” (“PHEIC”). A PHEIC is “an extraordinary event which is determined to constitute a public health risk to other States through the international spread of disease and to potentially require a coordinated international response”.

The WHO declared a PHEIC for COVID-19 on the 30th January, 2020 (4) at a meeting of the IHR Emergency Committee for Pneumonia due to the Novel Coronavirus 2019-nCoV (“ECP”).

Members of the ECP (5) include Emeritus Professor John Mackenzie of John Curtin University. Professor Mackenzie is quoted in the Jakarta Post (6); “On Feb. 5, a day after Tedros had urged countries to provide complete case reports, the Financial Times reported that the influential WHO emergency committee member and veteran professor John Mackenzie “hit out at Beijing’s ‘reprehensible’ response,” and “accused China of not reporting coronavirus cases fast enough.”

The Jakarta Post article’s author seeks to impugn Professor McKenzie’s remarks by invocation of a cum hoc ergo proper hoc fallacy. The appearance of China using one of its proxies to invoke Neo-Marxist post-modernist dialogue to manufacture consent for its actions seems fairly likely. It reeks of the sort of asymmetrical, disinformational warfare beloved of Putin’s Russia.

The consistent pattern emerging from China is arguably one of casual delay and non-disclosure. Establishing the correct intent is a difficult task when events could easily be construed as governmental incompetence. Where prompt disclosure has occurred, it was before physical containment was in place. Hindsight is always perfect vision. The timelines involved need to be very closely scrutinized.

Particularly in relation to China’s interaction with the WHO, who China has sought to heavily influence since the implementation of the IHR’s that govern the response to pandemics. There are many gaps in the information required to create a highly accurate picture of what happened. What is clear in the above analysis however, is China’s response to the disease outbreak in terms of its compliance under the IHR’s if not deliberate was clearly negligent.

(1) https://www.who.int/influenza/preparedness/pandemic/publication/en/
(2) https://www.who.int/ihr/publications/9789241580496/en/
(3) https://www.who.int/dg/who-headquarters-leadership-team/former-directors-general
(4) https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/30-01-2020-statement-on-the-second-meeting-of-the-international-health-regulations-(2005)-emergency-committee-regarding-the-outbreak-of-novel-coronavirus-(2019-ncov)
(5)  https://www.who.int/ihr/procedures/novel-coronavirus-2019/ec-22012020-members/en/
(6) https://www.thejakartapost.com/academia/2020/02/18/the-strange-war-against-the-who-amid-its-battle-with-covid-19.html
(7) https://www.who.int/ihr/legal_issues/states_parties/en/
(8) https://www.who.int/ihr/China2007.pdf?ua=1
(9) https://www.who.int/csr/ihr/WHA58-en.pdf
(10) https://simpleflying.com/wuhan-quarantined-airport-closed/
(11) https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200121-sitrep-1-2019-ncov.pdf"

 

9.3 out of 10 based on 66 ratings

203 comments to Time to lockdown China for its dishonesty

  • #
    John F. Hultquist

    ” . . . but where were the Western Media?”

    Western Media has a collective case of Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS).

    400

    • #
      Geoff Croker

      China is our biggest customer. We did this knowing that if we deal with a communinist dictatorship it was never going to end well. We did it anyway. We wanted the money. We WILL now pay the price of misery and devastation but will learn nothing. Our inept leadership on nearly ALL levels has brought us all undone.

      It is too late to “fix” the China problem. We must address our own problems first.

      292

      • #
        PeterS

        So it’s OK to allow the CPC to do it again and delay warning the rest of the world about the next epidemic that comes about only to become an epidemic? What’s wrong with multi-tasking and trying to solve multiple problems, both here and there? Sticking head in the sand approach doesn’t work.

        81

        • #
          max

          “So it’s OK to allow the CPC to do it again”

          of course it is not OK, but beggars cannot be choosers.

          one more think, western world created and supported commies from beginning.

          Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution
          https://www.amazon.com/Wall-Street-Bolshevik-Revolution-Capitalists/dp/190557035X

          The Lend-Lease policy,
          the United States supplied the United Kingdom (and British Commonwealth), Free France, the Republic of China, and later the Soviet Union and other Allied nations with food, oil, and materiel between 1941 and August 1945. This included warships and warplanes, along with other weaponry.

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          • #
            PeterS

            As I said a number of times in the past the West is certainly not without many transgressions. Nevertheless, just as we should not neglect them and instead try to resolve such transgressions as best we can, we also should not neglect the CPC’s transgressions and instead try to do something about them. In both cases we as mankind need to avoid repeating the same mistakes. Of course, as I’ve also said in the past, mankind has a nasty habit of ignoring the past mistakes and end up repeating them. So, let’s find an appropriate way to avoid the next pandemic as best we can given the fact we all live on the same planet. OK?

            41

    • #
      Deano

      This whole thing is far too clumbsy for China. A corrupt government has China, but not a stupid one. This looks like a staged event most probably set up to allow them to claim they have seen the error of their ways and that will reform themselves to become a good global citizen. All a stunt of course.

      10

  • #
    Sunni Bakchat

    Beau et assez intelligent Jo! 😉

    70

  • #
    dinn, rob

    what, organized hanky-panky? Astonishing, simply astonishing.
    Professor Chumakov: “There are several inserts, that is, substitutions of the natural sequence of the genome” https://balance10.blogspot.com/2020/04/professor-chumakov-there-are-several.html

    60

  • #
    el gordo

    China blamed for spreading panic, this could get very nasty.

    ‘A global echo chamber created by Russian, Chinese and Iranian official campaigns is picking up and repeating unproven claims about the pandemic.’ Oz

    81

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      I’d heard on a podcast that apparently the year of 2020 had been effectively “pre-selected” for a military stoush with the West.

      Apparently the date of 2020 is common through Chinese military literature, although I have no way of confirming this.

      It could however make more sense of things.

      A sobering point though – Russian strategy for taking down the USA has been :

      Step 1 – Biological attack
      Step 2 – Nerve agent attack
      Step 3 – Nukes.

      Assuming Chinese and Russian strategy may be similar, then this might get ugly.

      The USA food supply is already under pressure, Chinese ownership of a few key food processing plants has created headaches for the Americans.

      Trump has already deployed National Guard to food plants for cleaning after corona infections, and ongoing protection.

      There is talk Trump may nationalise those plants and boot out the Chinese.

      There is also another military strategy that may be implemented, which is “lighting many fires” – its entirely possible the US military will be stretched with war in Iraq, China and other theatres that China may re-take Tiawan. If it kicks off, I’d get out of Taiwan.

      Its interesting – Kissenger suggesting one day UN troops may turn up in the USA for “peacekeeping” purposes. If the USA has been decimated, then a globalist subjugation of the USA using foreign UN troops is possible.

      Has China provoked the West into a conflict?

      57

      • #
        el gordo

        ‘There is talk Trump may nationalise those plants and boot out the Chinese.’

        Socialism with US characteristics.

        43

        • #
          OriginalSteve

          I guess if your population is starving, you may run a greater risk from collapse from internal trouble than an external threat, which ultimately makes you vulnerable to an enemy.

          Damned if you do, damned if you dont….

          50

          • #
            el gordo

            State Owned Enterprises is not the ideal route, a free market works best, but in times of economic crisis it maybe essential for awhile.

            40

          • #
            el gordo

            Beijing is preparing for the economic shock waves.

            ‘Though the COVID-19 pandemic has had an impact on foreign-funded companies operating in China, the possible withdrawal of some United States and Japanese companies will not crash the country’s economy as supportive government policies, market scale and an advanced industrial supply chain are sufficient.’

            China Daily

            10

            • #
              DOC

              el Gordo, the fact the CCP sees it necessary to even comment on this is a
              sign they see big trouble coming as the West pulls out its investments. Xi’s
              biggest worry is said to be from his own people becoming ‘restless’. Loss of
              that trade would hamper all his other ambitions. There is rising noise from the
              US media about renegging on loan repayments as the way of ‘reparation’ for the
              destruction wrought on the US economy by COVID-19 due to China’s dalliance.

              90

              • #
                el gordo

                Its feasible that Xi is now under increasing pressure to do something, the Princelings are getting nervous. This leader has the Mandate of Heaven and is in the big seat for life, unless he gets ill and retires prematurely.

                There won’t be an uprising from the masses, its an Orwellian state.

                ‘ … renegging on loan repayments …’

                Interesting idea, but surely as the US has been actively involved at the Institute they shouldn’t be asking for repatriation.

                20

      • #
        TdeF

        Retake Taiwan? That is pure Chinese propaganda. Taiwan was never part of China. That’s like retaking Vietnam or Korea or Tibet, a case in point.

        150

        • #
          OriginalSteve

          Funny…the Chinese seem to think so…

          00

          • #
            TdeF

            No they don’t. They are a different country, culture, even written language. Try telling the British they are Germans. Or French.

            20

            • #
              OriginalSteve

              I’m not disputing that…the point I’m making is that from a China perspective, they consider Taiwan to be a wayward child that needs to be brought back into the family.

              20

      • #
        el gordo

        ‘Has China provoked the West into a conflict?’

        Its not in their national interest to have purposely created this pandemic.

        Let us assume that a lone actor from the Wuhan Institute released the virus at the wet market, in this way WW3 can be avoided.

        Beijing has no stomach to take Taiwan, HK is an illustration of how it becomes a festering sore.

        72

      • #
        Orson

        OriginalSteve asks “Has China provoked the West into a conflict?” Historian Niall Ferguson turned pundit says that no official from China has ever objected his characterisation of China-US relations as “The New Cold War.” In his podcast discussion a few days ago (via YouTube), Ferguson says last year he asked the nonigenarian(sp?) ex-diplomat who opened China to the West in the early 1970s, Henry Kissinger, about his claim. He replied that the US is in the foothills of a new Cold War with China. Please listen to the vigorous discussion between Ferguson, retired general turned historian H. R. McMaster, and economist John Cochran in the recent Good Fellows podcast from the Hoover Institution. This is a feast for the geopolitical savvy.

        40

      • #
        Meglort

        Hopefully.

        The chincomms will get their face wiped with their backsides.
        The problem with China is it suffers from the Dunning-Kruger effect.
        Full of pomposity, self-delusion and rebreathing its own piffle.

        It would more likely be China getting shamed and chained by the G20.
        And once the west decouples, internally it will self-destruct.

        Russia knows China is a putrid and feral state, my bet is they will sideline sit.

        30

    • #
      PeterS

      They are already being blamed for it. The question is what do we do about it? Do we stick our head in the sand and let it happen again, or do we discuss what we can do about it to prevent from happening again. I am under no illusion as to what is the right approach, if any. Why are there so many posters here missing that real issue? How about the idea of finding a way to detect viruses? In the UK they are using dogs to sniff out people who might have the virus. Surely we could develop some device to do it better and easier. We can send men to the moon and perhaps soon Mars so perhaps we could postpone such advancements and focus our attentions to developing devices to detect viruses. Just a suggestion. Sticking head in sand does not work.

      51

    • #
      MudCrab

      A global echo chamber created by Russian, Chinese and Iranian official campaigns

      Good thing Russia got their puppet into the White House back in ’16, hey?

      /snark

      52

  • #
    Carl

    Random sampling for antibodies in New York city showed 21% had had the virus. This is 10 times the rate of confirmed cases and shows the death rate has been overestimated by about 10 times. The death rate in NY city is now looking more like 0.5%. New York city has almost the highest population density in the world. Their health system was overwhelmed after local politicians said there was nothing to worry about and to get to the Chinese New Year parade. In other places the death rate will be much lower.

    Please see this article: https://nypost.com/2020/04/23/2-7-million-new-yorkers-may-have-been-exposed-to-coronavirus-study/

    25% of NY city deaths were in nursing homes.

    The high number with antibodies is consistent with what I’ve been saying: this virus isn’t as deadly as thought; it mostly affects the very elderly and those with co-morbidities; our politicians have panicked and are destroying our economy and kid’s future unnecessarily.

    245

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      Clear and concise. Thanks.

      54

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      I think the situation has also been hijacked by certain elements within the top end of society to attempt to damage the economy.

      If you have global crisis, they can push for a global govt and a global currency. I’m thinking more likely the global currency, as this thing has been assisted by people who seem hell bent on destroying the economy. Why?

      104

    • #
      Ross

      In NY there is a policy that says people should be re admitted to nursing homes, even if they have been infected

      https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/04/explains-new-york-numbers-governors-policies-required-infected-coronavirus-patients-sent-back-nursing-home/

      Similar things happened in Italy, the UK and elsewhere. This seems to have been a monumental, bureaucratic mess in many places. One of the first things everyone learnt was the very old were the most vulnerable and we all know nursing homes have major issues with infections every winter.

      100

      • #
        Jeffrey Dun

        Dr Malcolm Kendrick wrote an angry essay on the situation in England.

        He concluded with the following words:

        “If you wanted to create a system most perfectly designed to spread COVID amongst the vulnerable elderly population, you may well have come up with the current one. Infect people with COVID in hospital, and then scatter them into care homes and the rest of the community. Making sure that you infect all the carers on the way.”

        https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/

        110

    • #
      RickWill

      New York now has 15k deaths and it will reach 24k by the time those now in critical care die. The rate of community infection is presently in rapid decline as evidenced by being well past the peak death rate. Most of the remaining 9000 to die are already in critical care or at least already infected.

      Doing the numbers 24,000/2,700,000 = 0 .88%; more than TEN times worse than seasonal flu. Most communities are experiencing a death rate of about 1% of infections where the hospital system is not overrun. Australia is 75 in 6661 assessed cases; equates to 1.1%. There are 45 in critical condition so expect final toll to reach 100. It is likely that there will be a significant number of undetected cases; given the high level of testing in Australia of likely infected, lets say 50% more so total infected 10,000. To give a final death rate of 1%.

      42

      • #

        Numbers – Bah! Humbug! (now surely they wouldn’t fiddle those numbers …..surely not)

        Same here in Australia.

        I’m just so immensely thankful that our dear leader here in Queensland Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk personally saved the lives of more than 30,000 of her fellow Queenslanders from dying. (/sarc) Link to article That got an eye roll from me. And then she followed it up with this ….. That keeps me up at night, thinking about how I can save people’s lives. And we thought Gillard was the only one to use ‘hyperbowl’. And you wonder how much social distancing there is with hair and makeup prior to these media briefings.

        Please don’t try and tell me that was not scaremongering.

        I can just see her next tourism campaign leading off with what she said when she slammed the borders shut with a $1334 fine.

        Queensland – Beautiful One day, perfect the next. We don’t want you here!

        And I’m just overjoyed that she now thinks she is in charge of the Rugby League. I hope that when it gets up and running, she doesn’t allow the TV broadcasts into Queensland. Serves them right. Imagine how many votes are in it for her if she cancels State Of Origin.

        You might think I’m really cynical, but they bring it on themselves.

        Tony.

        243

      • #
        Bulldust

        Rick, I would guess the number of infected is far higher than you guess. I bet most of the younger, healthy infected people didn’t even know they had it. That said, a relatively small percentage of the population has probably been infected, even assuming much higher rates than those recorded. I imagine the governments of the world are wary of rolling out massive testing programs as all the false positives would scare the general populace, and give the media excuses to run scaremongering stories. Like they need an additional excuse.

        Total side note: the missus and I walked past the Pan Pacific Hotel in Perth (Hill street and Adelaide Terrace) and there was an ambulance taking away a woman and young child. The responders were in full body suits, masks etc. No new cases in WA yesterday, apparently. I must therefore believe that the two were known cases that had escalated in severity.

        70

        • #
          RickWill

          At no stage has Australia’s medical system been under stress. There were some initial queues for testing but that subsided over a couple of days. There has been very few cases without an identified source. There has been substantial contact tracing to locate further cases. In Australia 1.6% of those tested had the virus. In the USA 19.5% of those tested had the virus.

          The heath system in NY was inundated. In the early days before the State was locked down, the emergency services could not cope. 911 calls were not being answered. In those circumstances, people with the initial symptoms would not bother seeking medical attention unless it progressed.

          One question they should have asked of those sampled for antibodies in NY was if they had experienced any of the symptoms.

          My eldest son lives in the UK. His toddler bought something home from day care the week before UK was locked down. I was very concerned over the next week for their health as I considered there was a good chance of them having the virus. Both recovered in 4 days after first symptoms. Their condition would need to deteriorate considerably before they contemplated leaving the safety of their unit. If it was not CV19 then they were exposing themselves to extra risk by going out and there was no magic elixir to kill the virus if they had it. I expect people in NY would want to be in desperate circumstances before they ventured out given the circumstances there. Not so in Australia as the risk has never been perceived as high. Because Australia acted a week or two earlier on their trajectory; saving 5 to 6 doublings.

          40

          • #
            Bulldust

            A colleague here at work has a son in NYC. He had the symptoms and lost sense of taste and smell (for about 4 weeks so far) but appears to be on the mend. He was never tested.

            The partner of my daughter-in-law is a copper in NYC, who travelled with a copper who tested positive. He had a test and it came back negative. He had a cousin, however, in his twenties who died of it (comorbidities probably played a role).

            There’s no way of knowing, but my Mum (in Andorra) may have died rom this bug, but at near 90 it may simply have been age-related causes. As far as I know she was never tested.

            We are in the fog of war at the moment. Small case studies and anecdotal evidence may mislead as much as inform.

            90

            • #

              Bulldust, so sorry to hear about your mother. Best wishes for the rest of your family.

              30

              • #
                Bulldust

                It was a bit awkward as none of us were in Andorra at the time, and none could go there. The redeeming aspect was the dementia probably meant she wasn’t overly aware that we weren’t around. There were other people locally visiting Mum in the last weeks.

                The four sons and families will probably meet up in Andorra or Holland later this year. The latter is more likely as Mum was Dutch and one of fourteen, so there are a fair few rellies over there. There are some interesting characters in that bunch, so it’s always entertaining.

                30

        • #
          Speedy

          G’day Bulldust – I reckon the lack of footy would be torture for you – “this is the time of year we all looove…”
          Cheers,

          Speedy

          10

          • #
            Bulldust

            I am not a crazy fan of sportsball, although I do enjoy the footy more than the other alternatives. I think there is talk it may be back in June in some form. Bringing something like that back will have more impact than people may realise. People are desperate to see signs of normality. Who wasn’t smiling when toilet paper reappeared in supermarkets last week? Baby steps…

            30

            • #
              Speedy

              G’day B/D. There was an AFL Footy Tipping competition commentator – probably 20 years ago I reckon, who was a cracker to read every week (He saved me a few times from doing some dumb tips. In footy tipping, I can barely pick my nose.) His pen name was Bulldust and you reminded me of him – must have been a coincidence. Good to see the footy back – Carn the Crows!

              And yes, it’s nice to see the poo tickets in the shops again! The fun part will be the people who have supplies to last them into the next century…

              Cheers,

              Speedy

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              • #
                bulldust

                I was 6th out of about 100+ in the office tipping in round 1 this year and we cancelled it >.< I had 8 with a margin of 9 points on the first game.

                While I can't relate to the club histories of most clubs in the following link, the West Coke Eagles on is hilarious:

                http://www.convictcreations.com/football/clubculture.htm#.XqJxU2gzaUk

                I was born in Geelong, but left the country at age 2. Came back as a born again Aussie in September 1992, to Kalgoorlie. My new state was playing my birth team in the GF a couple weeks later. Eagles won in a glorious come back, so I adopted them as my team since then, though I have a soft spot for the Cats. They came good a little later, of course.

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        Jeffrey Dun

        “Most communities are experiencing a death rate of about 1% of infections where the hospital system is not overrun. ”

        South Dakota is an interesting exception. Unlike most other States it has not been locked down and has recorded 9 deaths from 1,858 infections. That is a very low CFR, much lower than the CFR for the seasonal flu.

        https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/04/22/exclusive-south-dakota-gov-kristi-noem-on-beating-coronavirus-without-lockdown-were-much-better-on-offense/

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        • #
          Bill In Oz

          Best not to trust Breitbart on this
          It has a political agenda not a medical one.
          North Dakota is interesting because it is an isolated cluster of infections & deaths
          Based around employees at the very large Chinese owned Smithfield Pig processing plant.
          Lots of employees at this plant are getting infected.
          But most of them are low paid casuals with a migrant background.
          The plant is deemed an essential industry by the Federal government
          And so employees are ‘required’ to turn up for work
          Despite the known Wuhan Covid 19 virus infections.
          And despite the lack of PPE gear and social distancing at the plant.
          Not a great illustration of the USA in action.

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        • #
          RickWill

          So far 9 deaths in 1858 equates to 0.48%. There are only 854 recovered. Deaths lag cases by about 20 days so expect at least another 9 deaths to take the total from current assessed cases to 18; equates to 1% like most other communities. This is at least TEN times worse than seasonal flu.

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            Jeffrey Dun

            It seems to me that you are confusing CFR with IFR.

            The 1% to which you refer is the CFR. One would expect the CFR for the flu to be higher than this. For example, when I last looked at the end of March at the Centre for Disease Control and Prevention in the USA, it was estimating that at that point in their flu season there had been 24,000 flu deaths from a total number of confirmed flu cases of 284,840. That is a CFR of 8.4%.

            Of course, the IFR for the flu is significantly less than that because the overwhelming majority of people who catch the flu are undocumented. But then the same applies to the IFR for Covid. We will have to wait and see how they compare.

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            • #
              RickWill

              The 1% to which you refer is the CFR.

              No it’s not. The nearly 1% is based on the study infection number. By the studies own calculation they are saying that their estimated total infection in NY is 2,700,000. The total deaths will end up at 24,000 before they get to low numbers as there are still thousands of critical cases and more to present who already have the virus. 24,000/2,700,000 = 0.88%. Deaths are displaced by 20 dats from presentation and a few days longer from infection.

              The death to assessed cases, CFR, in NY is now at 6%.

              It is very clear that CV19 kills around 1% of those infected providing the medical system is not overwhelmed. If overwhelmed the IFR will be higher..

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              • #
                RickWill

                I should add that the actual CFR for CV19 in NY will be close to 10% given the delay between case assessment and eventual death. It is a reasonable result for the State given the stress on the medical system.

                France will end up with a CFR around 15%.

                The virus is fast running out of hosts in Australia. Likely total death will be 100 out of 6661 assessed cases. So CFR is 1.5%. I expect IFR to be about 1% like other populations. The small difference between CFR and IFR in Australia is that there has been considerably more testing and there was no greater fear for people presenting themselves for testing.

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              • #
                Jeffrey Dun

                “No it’s not.”

                Yes it is ! Your comment, to which I replied, was about South Dakota. I wasn’t talking about NYC in my reply to you. I was replying to your comment about South Dakota. You forecast, based on their current numbers, that it would “…equates to 1% like most other communities.” You then say that: “This is at least TEN times worse than seasonal flu”. which is false.

                You are comparing apples and oranges; that is, you are comparing the CFR for Covid in South Dakota (say around 1%) with the IFR of the seasonal flu (assumed to be around 0.1%).

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        • #
          DOC

          Cuomo gave the New York figures on testing for antibodies at 13.5% infections
          and a death rate of 0.5%

          20

          • #
            RickWill

            The IFR is based on current deaths. There are still quite a few deaths to come in NY as they are only a few days past the peak death rate. My figure of 0.88% will be much closer than Cuomo’s current figure because he is not counting on those who are already infected but yet to pass.

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    • #

      Carl – totally agree.
      I would add that our media have by and large been totally useless in this crisis.
      The initial response was one of attack on Trump for his “xenophobic” halting of Chinese arrivals, and indifference about actually doing something about this issue.

      Now we have them piling on and supporting continued restrictions, many of which are totally useless about preventing virus spread and only kill the economy. They are just politically correct parrots – no holding Govt (in particular Dan Andrews) to account for heavy handed and politically motivated actions. V little questioning on what the plan is next, other than more restrictions…

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        WXcycles

        There were 18 new cases today. If Australia reopened with that still occurring we end up right back were we started with more cases showing up right across Australia during June and July. If we completely eliminate the new cases between now and mid-May and then re-open there’s no community-spreading. Business are then clear to begin recovery, and well before most countries so.

        Yesterday the US admin was talking about planning to have most of the US economy back online by the end of August (that’s 4 months to almost full reopening).

        Most of our businesses will be up and running by end of next month with no residual community spreading. That’s a fantastic result given what we were looking at just 1 month back.

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      Bill In Oz

      Swiss medical researchers from University Hospital Zurich have discovered that the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus basically attacks the endothelial cells lining the blood vessels, causing sepsis and multiple organ failure in critically ill COVID-19 patients.”

      The study is published in the Lancet journal. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30937-5/fulltext#%20

      The issue is can we live with this virus in our midst ? I don’t think so.
      So I am glad that we in Australia are eliminating this virus from our nation.
      But if the USA wants to let it rip, that is a decision for the relevant USA authorities.

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      TdeF

      So they say. “The state tested 3,000 random New Yorkers across 19 Empire State localities for the presence of antibodies, which would indicate that they were exposed to the coronavirus at some point and may have built up some level of immunity to it.”

      There is no guarantee of random! These are people who ventured out to supermarkets, something they were told not to do. These are people who wanted to be tested. What they found is a group of lockdown breakers with a much higher exposure to the virus and who thought they might be exposed. Surprise. Surprise.

      The fact that Australia has wiped out the virus completely by lockdown proves this is rubbish, that there are not 20x as many people floating round shedding virus and infecting others. The infection stopped when the lockdown started.

      It is one of many reports and the key is the word random. I do not believe it and even they warn the sample may not be random.

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      Jerry in New Jersey

      Sorry but anything that disagrees with the 1% infection rate from the Austria study is utter BS…

      20

    • #
      Boris

      Those of us who could see this were considered stupid and dismissed out of hand…

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    • #
      Orson

      But it is also not as simple to survive as the flu. 10 to 30% appear to suffer permanent kidney damage. And permanent lung damage, heart or nerve damage may be common or perhaps not infrequent. Carl, shall we do an Alphonse routine? This way to the virus…you first…no you, I insist!

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      TedM

      “Random sampling for antibodies in New York city showed 21% had had the virus.”

      Actually shows 21% had been in contact with the virus. It doesn’t mean that they had contracted it. Probably a bit of journalistic licence.

      Also I wait to find out just how specific this anti-body test is, and if the same people were tested in 6 months would the test result be the same, or would the “immunity” have been lost.

      Still a lot to learn, too much uncertainty.

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      • #
        David A

        Is the accuracy of the antibody test known? How similar and specific is this test to other antibodies developed through contact with common cironaviruses?

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    • #
      Serp

      We shouldn’t be surprised Carl; let’s face it, governments are so compromised by lobbying that it is not possible to obtain any hearing at all for some points of view –I’m becoming increasingly uncomfortable about Bill Gates’s involvement in this seeming fiasco now that he has quit his board duties to concentrate on climate change after having been neck deep in Event 201 last October, the dry run for what we’re being subjected to now.

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    William Astley

    We are going to get angrier with China.

    It is economically impossible, for the US, to stay in quarantine for a year. Some of the states and cities in the US will be bankrupt by this summer. Small US Companies have started to go bankrupt in real time. All of the banks in the US will be bankrupt if the slide is not stopped.

    We have discovered an economic ‘tipping’ point.

    If countries isolate, they cause permanent economic damage to their country. Losing first the small businesses which knocks out the banks, followed by the loss of private homes, then large companies, and then mass unemployment.

    https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2020/04/23/donald-trump-jr-blasts-media-acting-cant-open-covid-eliminated/

    Another reason why we might get angrier with China, is there is a new paper out of China that states the Covid-19 virus has mutated into 20 different viruses and some of those are deadlier than Covid-19.

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      OriginalSteve

      And this is why I have been advocating a “controlled damage” approach to get people back to work, while knowing the collateral damage will occur, but its that or economic oblivion.

      If you follow the scientific purist approach, it ignores the reality of needing economies to function, and economies cant function if your population is in bunkers.

      It also makes sense to place super tight controls around the 70+ age population and let the younger economically productive age group back to work.

      There is no neat way through this, and is going to be a pain to live with for a while.

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      • #
        Yonniestone

        I think the “controlled damage” approach is occurring naturally, there has been a notable increase in road traffic and activity around businesses with people still being cautious, going by personal feedback this is happening in other regional areas too, with some places having zero covid-19 cases the government cannot expect people to sit back and go broke when work or commerce is just sitting there.

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  • #
    dadgervais

    I agree. They should be ostracized, isolated, and contained. Not because they are bad global citizens, but because they are communists. The former is an inescapable consequence of the latter. The same goes for another supremacist ideology which seeks world domination, but shall remain nameless. Still, we have to deal with the virus problem regardless of the origin.

    A review of both French and Chinese data shows that the percentage of covid patient smokers (for each adult age group) is about 1/5th the corresponding percentage in the general population.
    https://www.qeios.com/read/article/574

    Either this is some statistical anomaly, or smoking reduces the risk of infection, or infected smokers are much more likely to be asymptomatic and not require treatment. Should we look for an antiviral agent in cigarette smoke? Perhaps, smokers should postpone quitting until the “extinction event” is over? Inquisitive minds (should) want to know.

    But, these are politically-incorrect early results which, as usual, will be ignored or suppressed. If not ignored, then no funds will ever be provided for follow-up, while boatloads of cash will appear for shoddy studies to debunk/refute the evidence.

    Of course, the CDC lists smoking as a risk factor, and we must trust the experts!

    — dadgervais

    p.s. Full disclosure: I’m a (higher risk) 70 year old, retired engineer with high blood pressure. My pension is not affected, so no personal financial gain from reopening the economy. Also, I smoke 1/2 pack a day, though (true-fact) I 100% quit for the 40 days of Lent. Great timing I guess.

    p.p.s. “True-fact” is a colloquialism in some areas, and we already know it’s redundant.

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      Bill In Oz

      Yes E G.. Well worth reading. Here is a choice paragraph:
      “…..we must consider that Xi Jinping has produced the greatest program of ethnic cleansing in the world today. He has curtailed freedoms in China severely and is the father of the panopticon state. His incessant military buildup threatens neighbors while using economic and other subversive means to erode the sovereignty of countries around the world. We should not assume it was beyond his imagining to withhold a degree of support from the international community to ensure that China would not suffer alone.”

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    OriginalSteve

    Its worth noting an increasing chunk of the US media is calling the virus the “CCP virus” – Chinese Communist Party virus.

    Its also worth investigating whether any work on this thing was commissioned/funded/directed by “the swamp”….

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      Ross

      We know the answer to that Steve. Fauci and the NIH gave at least US$3.8 million to the Wuhan lab back in 2015 (?) to do work on viruses after similar work was stopped in the US.

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        el gordo

        I wondered what that was all about, designer virus for biological warfare.

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      • #
        el gordo

        Australia should formally sue the US as coconspirators, $60 billion should be fine and we want it in gold bullion because the dollar is worthless.

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        • #

          el gordo, but our spare essential oil supply will sit on US soil and we depend on them utterly for military defense.

          Can’t see anyone suing the US.

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          • #
            MudCrab

            …depend on them utterly for military defense

            I assume you were being figurative not literal.

            If we depended on them utterly we wouldn’t have an ADF and would be one of those nations who expect allies to defend their airspace… like say, Ireland… and New Zealand…

            The only way New Zealand could currently defend its own airspace would be to hope the intruder drifted into range of the Sea Sparrow missiles on their ANZAC frigates (good luck since one of the two is up on the blocks in Canada for refit) or try and throw rocks at it from the back of a C130.

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            el gordo

            Okay, if the US is found to be duplicitous then Australia should demand $60 billion dollars of free oil. If they refuse to cough up then we can quit the Alliance and become a truly independent state.

            Our biggest trading partner is not going to militarily attack us.

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    Robber

    Another mystery remains. How did China shut down this virus so quickly that it reports a grand total of just 83,000 cases, 4,632 deaths, only 2,700 cases since the start of March, and now has only 959 active cases.

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    • #
      SteveS

      Well. if I recall correctly, at the time of the outbreak, chinese province leaders were told they would be directly held responsible for Corona deaths in their provinces. You know, kinda similar to russian Northern “Federal Subjects” reporting winter temperatures….the colder you report, the more oil you get.
      Reporting high Corona cases/fatalities is career/Life damaging.

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      William Astley

      I agree. That figure is impossible if the Chinese did not have advance news of the virus and/or understanding of how the virus would mutate.

      The Chinese had a ‘lucky’ break advantage. The first cases of the covid virus started with the serious lung infection, so they were easy to find.

      It was only later that this sneaky virus mutated so that it attacked the throat with a minor attack and then wait for its deadly attack on the lung.

      The US has new technology that enables it to emulate any virus in software and run the simulated virus through a program that emulates the response of every bioactive region of the body and the virus as it evolves….

      … throat, nose, brain, heart, stomach, and so on for any human population.

      These two pieces of complicated software enable a virus ‘designer’ to understand how a virus will mutate with time and how those mutations would affect its victims.

      The simulated virus has exactly the same response as a real virus would have had, if it had been run through hundreds of thousands of people. This technology enables the development of viruses that can manipulate and change humans at a microbiological level.

      This ‘designer’ virus technology could be used to find and kill cancer cells, in a machine like manner. The ability to evolve a designer virus so it can enter a human body and infect the human body in a known manner, was the key to this new technology.

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    • #
      Orson

      Well, the urn count in Wuhan is 10X of the official death count in that city, yielding 40,000 as an unofficial but more truthful death toll.

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      Meglort

      There are plenty of non-CCP censored sources that show infection is and has been continuing since it was supposedly contained. The CCP has internal enemies that leak.

      What was stopped was the reporting of it and that stuff was already going on in Jan.
      There were bonus payments to community level mobsters to have zero cases for example.
      Just like the CAGW rort, if the paymaster says the answer is no, it then is no.
      Just make the cause of death, viral pneumonia or unknown if really needs be.

      Lockdowns in towns and suburbs are continuing, people are still dropping dead in the street and there is massive unrest, economic malaise, unemployment and food shortages.

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      David A

      Robber, it is simple, China lied.

      Covid-19 started in early November, maybe sooner, in a city of 11 million with about plus 3 to 4 million seasonal. It had 2.5 to 3 months of uninterrupted spread prior to the lockdown. All of China’s numbers are FUBAR. China did not shut down their economy over a few hundred unexplained deaths. It was far worse their then reported.

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  • #
    MudCrab

    You seem to have the Soviet flag on display.

    Soviets use a gold hammer and sickle on red background. It represents – probably – the gold plated elite manipulating the economy to bleed the masses.

    China has gold virus spheres on a red background. It represents the gold plated elite manipulating bio research to bleed the masses.

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      nb

      Very funny!
      Certainly the red background is the blood of the dead and destroyed.
      And certainly the gold represent the harvest of wealth that flows to the mandarins.
      But are’t the hammer and sickle a reminder that all that wealth comes from the backbreaking toil of a rural peasantry? You know, a bit of a tilt towards those who produce all that wealth.
      I thought, in the case of the Chinese, they had done away with all that sentimental stuff.
      The shimmering gold stars in the Chinese flag are aspirational, representing gold and diamonds. The motto is ‘On the blood of others, we can collect buckets of gold and diamonds.’
      I believe there is a shorter motto too. It goes ‘Çhina kills’.

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        Sceptical Sam

        Nope.

        Close but no Corona.

        It’s goes:

        “Chinese Communist Party kills – asymmetrically”.

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      OriginalSteve

      I seem to recall an Australian movie called “Tomorrow When The War Began”.

      All of a sudden, in a Simpsons-esque future predicting moment, I’m wondering if it may not be far fetched?

      Maybe we also need to have an urgent audit of any food companies of food supplies owned and controlled by Chinese companies in Australia?

      As we’ve seen in the USA recently, they are potential food supply choke points.

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      • #
        MudCrab

        Based off the YA book series of the same name.

        Came out… mid 80s? (!!!). I never read them, but remember seeing them in the shops back in the day.

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    • #

      Not so Mudcrab. That is the Flag of the Communist Party of China.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China

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        nb

        yeah, yeah, that flag means ‘We, the CCP, use hammers and sickles to bludgeon our people. See all the blood?’ As for the national flag, refer above – ‘From buckets of blood, gold and diamonds for the CCP’

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    Sunni Bakchat

    Those interested in an advanced understanding the roots of China’s emergent disinformation campaigns could reference the Russian, Yurchak’s cultural work known as “hypernormalization” (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hypernormalization). A highly acclaimed eponymous BBC documentary by Adam Curtis explains the idea. Yurchak’s roots were in Anthropolgy but he appears the heir to amongst others, Baudrillard, Barthes and Goebbels. The world the Hypernormalists envision is a totalitarian simulacrum. It seems this is what China (and russia and Iran) wants to force upon the world. Link to the documentary is here – https://youtu.be/-fny99f8amM .

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      Serp

      Two hours and forty minutes is a bit long-winded for my taste Sunni Bakchat; I dipped into it in a couple of places but couldn’t raise enthusiasm –thanks anyway.

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    Roy hogue

    What else can you say to this but a big loud, yes. It’s a little harder to do but if a group of the right governments got serious about it the possibilities are many…

    How about no flights in or out of China? Too draconian? Too risky? Would China’s leaders do?

    Many other things you can do and they all poke the sleeping dragon and prompt him to respond with fire and brimstone.

    But I like the idea of a real lockdown, no flights in or out of China for say 10 days? 30 days? Longer?

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  • #
    Ruairi

    Those afflicted with T.D.S.,
    A few billion strong, at a guess,
    Swallow globalist bait,
    To feed anti Trump hate,
    Much increasing the pandemic mess.

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  • #
    Environment Skeptic

    Good grief…here goes the stir up trouble with China Syndrome again…i thought i had posted here to show that despicable ‘Gain Of Function research’ is being performed all over the world, not just China. For example, it was illegal and made legal again in the USA… And that medical reporting skills in all countries leave much to be desired.

    We need to clean up our own back yard before trying to clean the back yard in China.

    I will post the info again this evening. sigh*

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      Environment Skeptic

      I mean, our economy is trashed and now world leaders in stirring up opinion would like us to trash what remains of our relationship with the the country of china….again…instead of fixing up our own hard won mess in our own country.

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        Bill In Oz

        Trolling for the CCPTrolling for the CCP are we ES ?

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        • #
          Environment Skeptic

          Criticism Containment Patrolling…(CCP) 🙂

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            Sceptical Sam

            Don’t you realize you’d be one of the first put up against the wall by your CCP?

            The useful idiots are always the first to go.

            Then they squash the rest under the tank tracks in Tiananmen Square. Tank man included.

            Then, any left over have their doors welded shut. What’s a few million give or take a few?

            Ask Pol Pot. Ask Stalin. Ask comrade Fidel.

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            David A

            Leaks from class 4 labs are a strong sign of careless arrogance. China has had at least 4 leaks of deadly viruses. Their industrial accident record is close to one magnitude greater then most nations. While I agree with stopping all gain of function research, it is likely best to concentrate on the source of this China virus.

            00

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        Yonniestone

        What about doing it old school, defeat them in battle and claim any loot as spoils of war, they’d respect that more than shrill SJW’s, candles and teddy bears.

        10

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      OriginalSteve

      You raise a good point, and something I’d omitted in previous posts – namely the Elite work above the nation-state level and are unaccountable to everyone, except God.

      Put simply, the Elite have the ability to use countries like chess pieces, so if country X is designated to fight with country Y over some assigned stoush, with the “reason” pumped through the mass media, then the trained attack dogs in govt and media will be barking on cue to justify to the public, “the cause du jour”.

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      PeterS

      Yes, the West is certainly not totally innocent in a number of areas but the focus of attention here is how do we avoid the sinister behaviour of the CPC to repeat itself and result in another pandemic, which could be much worse than the current one. If we do nothing it will definitely happen again, you can bet your house on it. We can’t afford to let China get away with it. So yes, we should clean up our own backyard but that doesn’t mean we do nothing about the next-door neighbour’s mounting rubbish tip that stinking out the whole suburb.

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        Environment Skeptic

        Gain Of Function labs in our own backyard in general have extensive libraries of all kinds of viruses from all over the world…the bat virus could have originated anywhere on the planet where gain of function research is allowed to continue. And yet we have those who will claim their flu lab is the cleanest on the planet and then grovel down the road leading to popular pastime that busies itself with the denigration of others.
        https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/virus-experiments-risk-global-pandemic

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          PeterS

          The issue is not the origin of the virus – that’s a separate issue and might take years to solve. All the major nations will continue to conduct their secret labs – there’s no point harping on how that can be avoided. That would be like harping on the point they all should stop building new military weapons of other types. The issue is how the CPC handled the situation at hand. It was unacceptable, and still is. What we do about it is the real question at the moment. I am under no illusions as to knowing what is the right approach. We need to discuss it though to see if we can come up with one, if possible.

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            OriginalSteve

            The only exception I would make to your point is whether this virus is a CHIMERA.

            If so, it’s an illegal and very dangerous branch if research that has now *gone into the wild* across the planet.

            One concern I have is whether this virus does the “softening up” for what’s next.

            Let’s be blunt – if someone was evil enough to not only create it and release it, they will do it again.

            Let that sink in, everyone…..

            Then you have weirdos who want to leverage your families’ suffering to inject microchips in people via vaccines. You have to not be quite right in the head…or plain evil….maybe both.

            We are dealing with some seriously nasty people.

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              PeterS

              I get your point and actually have a lot of sympathy with them. I do believe there is a lot of evil people in this world but that’s nothing new. I also believe there will be other far more nasty pandemics will come because of these evilness. Not much we can do to stop them. However, that doesn’t mean we sit on our hands and do nothing. For example, I like to be prepared. I was prepared for this pandemic for many years and I didn’t have to panic buy various essential items. I feel we should develop procedures and processes to detect and protect ourselves from the next outbreak, and failing that if it turns to be overwhelming, be at least prepared to handle the outbreak as best we can. The world was caught with their pants down this time. Let’s not let it happen again, please.

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          DOC

          Env. Skeptic. The laboratories and even the Wet Markets are not the argument. The source of
          COVID-19 is currently irrelevant.

          The argument with China comes from its refusal to acknowledge the size of the problem it
          was confronted with. It protected itself by travel restrictions while at the same time it demanded the world accept its people and flights.It plundered the world for PPE etc. It
          refused to consult and cooperate with the rest of the world’s epidemiological specialists.
          It had the WHO still telling the world there was nothing to worry about while China
          distributed its people globally at the same time it was reputed to be welding the doors
          shut on its infected.

          The consequences of this were to prevent confinement of the virus to China – quite the reverse – and the outcome has been to destroy the global economy and throw millions out of jobs.

          It is facile to try to deflect the details onto Laboratories and say China is no worse
          than the rest of the nations of the world. China is front and centre to everything that
          is confronting the rest of the World’s nations. We have to wake up that the cheapest
          goods are not worth enslaving ourselves for, and China has to pay a big price.

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            nb

            ‘The argument with China comes from its refusal to acknowledge the size of the problem it was confronted with. It protected itself by travel restrictions while at the same time it demanded the world accept its people and flights.It plundered the world for PPE etc. It refused to consult and cooperate with the rest of the world’s epidemiological specialists. It had the WHO still telling the world there was nothing to worry about while China distributed its people globally’
            Precisely. And that behaviour is consistent with biological warfare. Moreover no other explanation is forthcoming. So that remains the only reasonable conclusion. We are at war. China is killing our citizens. China kills.

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          • #
            David A

            5he source us certainly relevant. How to deal with the virus, and how to deal with China’s lies are also relevant. Knowing the source is key to preventing that avenue of release in the future.

            00

    • #

      Environment Skeptic,

      A virus with Gain of Function advances did not leak from Western nation labs and they did not tell the world “it’s the flu” and “it’s curable and preventable” when it isn’t.

      And the rest of the world did not lie by a magnitude about the numbers of the afflicted while they shut 80% of their economy down.

      Since biowarefare is coming, we need the research to stay a step ahead of what Communist Dictators. If we shut down our own labs it will be easier for the Chinese labs to surprise us…

      Our sins are complacency and being asleep at the wheel, and stupidly, naively trusting that China might ever consider our health and welfare as being useful.

      80

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Jo, if it happens again, I suspect Beijing,Shanghai and other main cities will disappear in a nuclear flash or be targetted by satellite tungsten weapons.

        I’m not advocating such a thing, but there are people out there who are way less tolerant and forgiving that I…..

        40

  • #
    RickWill

    Australia has the most leverage over China of all nations. More than 50% of Chinese steel production relies on Australian iron ore. Stopping that would have a significant impact on China’s economy. Of course the flip side is that it would have a massive impact on Australia’s terms of trade. Meaning Australia would not have the external income for all the imported essentials like oil and less essential goodies like appliances and clothing.

    It would be disastrous for the UN to be given more power. The UN should be defunded and disbanded. It serves no useful purpose. Its liabilities outweigh its benefits. Take a lesson from ScoMo and simply form a global cabinet of G20 leaders to handle global emergencies; bringing in other leaders as representatives of most affected under the emergency. Require countries to behave in a civilised fashion at the threat of sanctions. The world would work more efficiently without the UN globalists.

    There is a shift in the story no going on. The arrogant western leadership and press grossly underestimated China’s medical prowess and internal controls to crush the virus within its borders. From the time the virus started killing outside China there has been a growing realisation by western leaders that they underestimated China’s medical prowess and their need to save face by downplaying the extent of the internal disaster. Now the story has moved to retribution.

    The best approach would be to get the UN out of the picture (they are USELESS administrators) and set a G20 meeting to address the CV19 disaster. It still has a long way to run. The first priority for leaders is to keep people across the globe fed. The global food supply needs to be the priority not retribution on China.

    I heard that some families in Texas are struggling to feed themselves. Imagine what it is like in India.

    141

    • #
      RickWill

      Non elected officials never need to face the music as a people representative.

      With regard to UN administrators, think Kevin Rudd. After failing as a representative leader he was promoting himself as the next boss of the UN. The UN is infected with egocentric globalists. They are beyond sovereign controls and never face community wrath at a polling booth. Would be dictators who have failed in their own country.

      A G20 leadership team would not be free of dictators but most are elected representatives who face the community every few years.

      The EU administrators suffer the same fundamental issue of never needing to face their community.

      100

      • #
        dinn, rob

        a G-20 backed by top billionaires as world elite dictatorship! Australian iron ore sold on world market not getting directly or indirectly to China! Gain-of-function research–IF really corrected/eliminated by common sense–is a small step. Think of genetic engineering of all biology, central banking through all the world, state and corporate control and mass TV and mass drugs–or maybe better not. Take a walk under some trees before they become GMO trees and be thankful for the wind in your face.
        On 7 April 1989, while under the command of Captain 1st Rank Evgeny Vanin and running submerged at a depth of 335 metres (1,099 ft) about 180 kilometres (100 nmi) southwest of Bear Island (Norway),[6] fire broke out in an engineering compartment[2] due to a short-circuit,[7] and even though watertight doors were shut, the resulting fire spread through bulkhead cable penetrations. The reactor scrammed and propulsion was lost. Electrical problems spread as cables burned through, and control of the boat was threatened. An emergency ballast tank blow was performed and the submarine surfaced eleven minutes after the fire began. Distress calls were made, and most of the crew abandoned ship. The fire continued to burn, fed by the compressed air system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-278_Komsomolets
        A Sunken Soviet Sub Is Raising the Radioactivity of the Norwegian Sea 800,000-Fold. (After 30 years) But Don’t Worry. https://www.livescience.com/65931-radioactive-soviet-submarine-leak.html
        Russia, China, US and others too want many more weapons. But Don’t Worry.

        24

    • #
      Environment Skeptic

      The global food supply needs to be the priority not retribution on China.

      Agreed !

      Now all we can do is wait and hope that the specialists in making things worse do not make things worse.

      51

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        Measures are needed that target the CCP
        Not the Chinese people.
        The Chinese people suffer & are burdened by the Chinese Communist Party
        Especially since Yi came to power in 2012.
        And that is why so many Chinese have migrated out of China
        And moved money off shore out of China since 2012.

        So targeted measures that hurt the regime and not the people
        Are needed.

        72

    • #
      David A

      While I agree with much of your comment, calling the Democide China did with this through their military is not “China’s medical prowess”.

      10

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    0.00: “In late November, word had already gotten off the mainland that there was a virus in Wuhan.
    On Dec 15, the U.S. trade bill was signed -Phase 1.
    6 weeks later the trade truce was signed with an out clause.
    A very clever out-clause that the Chinese made sure was in there that said that if there was any kind of Act of God, pandemic, then they didn’t have to make good on what they had committed to buy from the United States.
    Within days they had announced the first corona virus.
    So, did the Chinese know damn well that this thing was running around the world for six weeks before they shutdown Wuhan?
    Yes they did.
    Is that criminal?
    Yes it is.
    Does it deserve to go in front of a … ‘world tribunal’?
    Yes it does.”

    Economist Danielle DiMartino Booth Exposes China & World Health Organization in a sit-down with Patrick Bet-David

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c47KVyz0Gsg

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  • #
    PeterS

    There are a number of ways to handle the fact the CPC is secretive, devious, sinister, arrogant, stubborn, etc.., which all helped to allow China to lead us to the current situation where they are clearly guilty of allowing the pandemic to get as bad as it has. It’s not the first time. They were all avoidable and we must do something to prevent it from ever happening again because the next time could very well be much worse. Some approaches involve punishing China, which would include the Chinese people themselves. An extreme example would be sanctions similar to what the US had done to Iran. That might help the Chinese people to revolt against their authoritarian government, but it could also do the exact opposite and side with their government and make matters worse. Other approaches would be in a more diplomatic fashion. I am under no illusion as to which one is the right approach, if any. Whatever we do I sincerely hope it doesn’t lead to war. That’s all I like to say at the moment.

    51

    • #
      Environment Skeptic

      We could learn how to make our own drones and mobile phones, medical drugs?

      43

      • #
        Dennis

        “What is The Lima Declaration? And why has Australia has lost 98% of it’s manufacturing?

        Although signed in 1975 by Labor Senator Don Willesee, the Lima Declaration has had far reaching effects, and can clearly be seen as the blueprint for the disastrous policies embracing the bizarre philosophy known as “Globalisation”.

        The Second General Conference of the United Nations Industrial Development Organisation (UNIDO) met in Lima, Peru, during the period 12-26 March, 1975. The resulting declaration had disastrous ramifications for Australian industry. The basic reasoning behind the Declaration was that the drastic plight of the Third World was the result of the rapacious policies of the advanced industrial nations. Australia listed as one of these. The only way to rectify the situation was to transfer industrial resources from advanced countries like Australia to the Third World, then to provide markets for Third World exports by buying products once produced locally.

        Both major parties are equally to blame for betraying the nation. The Fraser Government took over where Whitlam left off, Hawke and Keating increased the tempo of the programme with Mr Hawke, Keating, Button and other senior ministers telling unsuspecting Australians they were working to ‘internationalise’ the Australian economy. The truth is, they were sowing the seeds that has almost decimated Australian manufacturing and industry and has seen Australian jobs disappear overseas.

        More than half of Australia’s manufacturing capacity has been destroyed since 1974 and the economic carnage continues while Australia imports vast quantities of goods once produced locally. While we’re ploughing oranges into the ground, we’re buying concentrate back from Brazil. Our car industry has all but disappeared, steel making is on it’s knees and our petroleum industry is under severe threat of being moved overseas. If a situation arises where there is a serious threat in the region, we will be unable to defend ourselves. The Declaration will leave Austraia short of technology, tools and jobs and we can thank scores of useless and short sighted politicians for that – on all sides of Parliament.

        In 1970 estimates numbered Australian farmers at around 300,000, the number is now below125,000.

        A call for change was made in March 1975 when the Second General Conference of the United Nations Industrial Development Organisation (UNIDO), meeting in Lima, issued a Declaration and World Plan of Action.

        The Lima Declaration and Plan of Action called for the redistribution of world industry so that developing countries would have 25% of it by the year 2000. Now in Australia we have lost more then 98% of our Industries to third world countries – along with our jobs . To achieve this, radical changes in traditional concepts and practices are recommended. Economic growth in poorer countries could no longer be seen as the “trickle down” benefit of growth in rich countries. To close the gap between rich and poor nations the developing countries would have to grow faster than the developed countries. With this end in mind, the Lima Declaration sets out the “main principles of industrialisation” and defines the “means by which the international community as a whole might take broad action to establish a New International Economic Order”.

        Wonder why we’re importing so much fish and seafood from countries like Thailand and Vietnam – when we are surrounded by vast oceans? Look no further than Resolution 27 “Developed Countries such as Australia should expand it’s imports from developing countries.”
        Are you puzzled why so much industry and jobs have moved overseas? Maybe look at Resolution 35 “Developed Countries (Australia) should transfer technical, financial, and capital goods to developing countries to accomplish resolution 28 above.”

        (35) “That special attention should be given to the least developed countries, which should enjoy a net transfer of resources from the developed countries in the form of technical and financial resources as well as capital goods, to enable the least developed countries in conformity with the policies and plans for development, to accelerate their industrialisation.”

        (41) “That the developed countries should adhere strictly to the principle that the Generalised System of Preferences must not be used as an instrument for economic and political pressure to hamper the activities of those developing countries which produce raw materials”

        (43) “That the developing countries should fully and effectively participate in the international decision making process on international monetary questions in accordance with the existing and evolving rules of the competent bodies and share equitably in the benefits resulting therefrom”

        (52) “That the developing countries should devote particular attention to the development of basic industries such as steel, chemicals, petro chemicals and engineering, thereby consolidating their economic independence while at the same time assuring an effective form of import substitution and a greater share of world trade”.

        The UN is a giant unregulated Non Government Organisation with its sights set on a one world government, where people in power have no loyalties to countries like Australia. The Lima Agreement has the potential to turn developed countries like Australia into non developed countries – no wonder so many Australians are worried for their children’s and grandchildren’s futures.

        Like most Australians, you’ve probably never heard of the Lima Agreement. Some information is available on the buttons below. There is a vast amount of information available on the Internet. ”

        Australian Conservative Coalition

        Add UN Agenda 21, now Agenda 30: Sustainability and others.

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        • #
          Environment Skeptic

          Excellent points Dennis. Perhaps the best we can do in the meantime is to indicate some moderation to those seemingly intent on making the situation infinitely worse by finger pointing at this time.

          23

          • #
            Environment Skeptic

            Time to lockdown China for its dishonesty

            If it were my blog, i would comments such as the one quoted into moderation until the full extent of dishonesty in all nations is known.

            25

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          Let’s stay on topic here.
          The CCP is the huge elephant
          In the living room.
          Dealing with it is what this post by Jo is all about.

          21

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          Amazing stuff.

          01

        • #
          Boris

          Denis,

          Yes, we are seeing the concrete outcome of the treasonous Lima Declaration, a globalist policy in action. We have built a threatening and hostile China with the west’s inventions and technical know how, as well as capacity. Unfortunately the west has been set up for possible war and the real masters can play each side for the best deal, for their dystopian messianic world government. I was 15 in 1975 and I remember my parents discussing the Lima declaration at home around the evening dinner table.

          Fabian/international socialists need to seen as the traitors that they are.

          But there are so many more of these policies and as you mention at the conclusion of your post Agenda 21/30 etc.

          Where to start ……… it’d take several books to elucidate to answer what we are going to do about the CCP/PRC.

          We should start by withdrawing from the disastrous Lima Declaration. Stop sending intellectual and technical aid such as teaching them to how to compete with our industries, for example, how to produce fine merino wool to be our future competitor.

          Obviously, stop immigration from mainland China.

          Gradually stop buying goods from China and support our own industries as they grow and or are again reborn.

          But we must deal with the treasonous bankers and oligarchs by taking away their money power to create money out of nothing. etc etc

          30

      • #
        PeterS

        Yes that would be nice but that misses the point (again). What do we do about the CPC so they don’t repeat the same mistakes again and we end up with yet another pandemic? I thought that’s the key issue at hand. If not then OK let’s have another thread to discuss what we should do to make Australia great again. We certainly are not short of ideas, such as building base load power stations to drop the price of power drastically. I would love to discuss such approaches but that’s not what this thread is about.

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  • #
    george1st:)

    Absolutely , the Chinese Dragon has grown too big to be tamed .
    Courtesy of the UN,IPCC ,the western worlds apathy.
    We have been killing own own economies for years exporting industry and jobs to China for our ‘cheap’ products .
    Xi , president for life is making his presence felt .

    40

    • #
      Dennis

      A developing nation is China, not only does Australia in cooperation with the United Nations export industry and jobs to China, Australian taxpayers provide foreign aid monies as well.

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      • #
        Kalm Keith

        Which reminds me of the Australian perception of Indonesia being a poor country.

        The exact detail is now vague but goes something like;

        There are 30 million People in Indonesia who have more “wealth” than the top 25% of Australians.

        Note; by any sane standard Indonesia should see us as impoverished and give us support.

        I don’t doubt that the figures for China are similar.

        Have my parents and grandparents worked and slaved to build a Stupid Country?

        Our politicians are living the Good life in New York when they retire and laughing at our Gullibility.

        Cleanup time is here.
        KK

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  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    Love an post displaying cognitive dissonance –
    We were happy to have the wet markets operating as long as it mean that you could buy cheap goods, 24/7
    this was always unsustainable.
    but instead of asking about our own culpability, we blame instead.
    Why did we not ask China to improve its standards afters SARS?
    Why did we offshore all our production?
    Why did we not have supplies sufficient to keep the front line workers safe

    / the answer is price. /

    I’ve always tried to purchase ethically and sustainable products, I know I pay more, but that is not my consideration

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  • #
    Dennis

    Government ministers and others are saying that post-COVID-19 red and green tape must be cut with cooperation from the State Governments of course, and our nation must become self sufficient for economic and security purposes.

    No mention or acknowledgement that successive governments have been party to the undermining of our nation’s economy and security via United Nations treaties and agreements signed and supported by Australian governments legislation and regulations. Blue tape.

    80

    • #
      Speedy

      Hi Dennis

      “Blue Tape” – I like it. The UN has not come out of this very well, for all appearances it seems that WHO is just a puppet acting on behalf of the CCP. WHO’s credibility and moral authority is trashed and we need to bear that in mind next time we hear some stuffed shirt giving us the latest UN imperative.

      For countries such as Australia and the USA, it throws the situation into stark relief: It seems that they are paying for the UN, but the Chinese have bought the votes. Time to take the cash off the table and leave.

      Cheers,
      Speedy

      70

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        Time for the UN to exit New York as well.
        What benefit does the USA get from having UN
        In one of it’s biggest cities ?
        Probably more Wuhan Covid 19 disease.

        60

        • #
          PeterS

          Good idea. They can go to the moon where they can’t bother us. Make sure Kevin Rudd goes there too. Add Turnbull too.

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  • #
    TdeF

    Remeber it is also a very small numbers game if it is not true.

    Consider America has a mere 0.7Million known infected people from 330 million. That’s one in 400. 0.25%.

    So in a sample of 3,000 you expect 7 people. If you get 70, you can publish that the infection rate in this group has been higher than expected but so what? Firstly it is New York where infection rates are higher. Secondly they are at a supermarket and lastly they may have a reason to want to get tested but this second point is about small numbers.

    Even 70 people in 3,000 is not ‘herd immunity’ or anywhere near it and Sweden is claiming they will reach ‘herd immunity’ in three weeks. Many will die chasing this dream and the only question is when the authorities will stop this appalling experiment in unnecessary death to prove someone’s pet theory.

    We in Australia could not have eliminated this virus if its real infectivity was 50 higher than expected and the number of unsymptomatic carriers was 50x as large.

    50

    • #
      TdeF

      This was in response to #5 where “Random sampling for antibodies in New York city showed 21% had had the virus.”. Even the authors of this study question whether it was random. Known infections are 700,000 in 330,000,000 is 0.21%. So the report claims 100x as prevalent in New York supermarkets as expected. That is not random. It is limited, voluntary and restricted testing in a contagion city and even which supermarkets would matter.

      50

  • #
    MudCrab

    And as we speak, Chinese military ships are plying the waters of the South China Sea.

    Why is this news to people?

    Has the world been entertained by the big fluffy cute panda while being silenced for so long by White Imperial Guilt that NO ONE has noticed this? No one has noticed that the Spratly Islands have somehow – despite global warming sea rise (snark) – managed to grow from small rocks into land masses big enough to build air bases? Has no one bothered to pass a casual look over the ruling the PCA made declaring that China were ILLEGALLY occupying this area, or observed that China decided to simply denounce and ignore it?

    Don’t look so surprised. It is on you for not paying attention.

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    • #
      Bill In Oz

      I have known about it for years.
      So has the Philippines
      And Vietnam
      And Indonesia
      And Malaysia
      And Taiwan
      And Brunei.
      So has Australia, the USA and Japan.
      Heck ships from both Australia & the USA sailed through the South China sea
      Close to these new islands last week,
      in Defiance of CCP China.
      The only country not worried about this is Cambodia which is an ally of China

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  • #
    ianl

    Why do people insist on conflating 1.4 billion chinese people with the CCP, who control the police, the armed forces, the media, commerce … those 1.4 billion do not have voting rights.

    The CCP is completely thuggish. Likely not well known here, but I have actually seen part of the Beijing defence against internal uprisings – the core of this is a series of extraordinarily large cannons ringing the capital, all of them pointing outwards at everyone else in the country.

    If you conflate that with the political power of the CCP as “China”, you are doing precisely what the CCP want.

    There is still no sensible discussion here of the many issues raised by Aus’ fragile, hollowed out economy. Depending on mining and agriculture, as has been done for about 200 years, has led directly to this helpless point. Lee Kwan Yu was right, although I resisted that for a long time.

    I have had an Indian mining engineer ask the obvious of me: why do Australians not take robust risks ? The answer is also obvious. Australians trade in houses, not share capital. So who supplies the capital ? And why would they now if there is so little chance of return as we close our international borders for years until re-opening them is riskless ?

    It must be self-evident now that C-19 has achieved all that the greenies desired. No pollyanna stuff either, thanks.

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    • #
      TdeF

      It is like identifying all Germans with Adolph Hitler. Or all Russians with Josef Stalin. Or all Japanese with Tojo. Or all Italians with Mussolini.

      In WWII the Italians did not want to be there. In a documntary on the war in North Africa, the British Sixth army beat the Italians and had hundreds of thousands of Italian prisoners, so many their captors could not cope. So the Italians used their own trucks to drive into captivity, which helped a great deal.

      The Chinese people are not the CCP. While President Xi has made himself supreme dictator for life, he could suddenly fall ill. Like every emperor. Wuhan Flu is likely if too many businesses are harmed by a confrontation with their major buyers, America. That was the whole point of Nixon and Kissingers’s engagement with China, mutual dependency. So far it has avoided a cold war.

      41

      • #
        TdeF

        And a fundamental difference with the world poverty which created WWII is that America has lifted China out of extreme poverty. Now everyone has something to lose. Before WWII a lot of people had nothing to lose. China like Russia wants to be part of the world economy, not an outsider. And as Moore’s film showed, there are a lot of people who see every world event as an opportunity to get rich.

        However putting up walls with America and Europe would not be popular with most Chinese at every level. And President Xi does not want to preside over a Great Leap Backwards.

        The best thing which can be done is to get international organizations out of the UN world government. The CCP knows how to infiltrate and control such things. WHO should be completely independent. WMO as well. The UN is a forum, not a world government. The EU too was never going to be a government, but it is what the bureaucrats want. Common market into European Community into European Union into military power was never the deal. We need UNEXIT.

        And no one ever needed an undemocratic UN political body in charge of the world’s weather, the IPCC. It is a patently ridiculous idea.
        Disband it. Fire the lot of them.

        40

        • #
          TdeF

          My point is that if WHO was independent, this would never have happened. It didn’t happen with SARS in 2003 when WHO took on the Chinese government and declared a pandemic.

          This pandemic is entirely the personal fault of WHO President Tedros Adenhom who was supposed to warn the world in December and still claimed it was not infectious, human to human and that shutting borders was unnecessary according to WHO. He should be charged for cr*mes against humanity.

          The fact that he did this on behalf of the CCP is clear. The fact that the CCP controlled WHO is the ongoing problem. What Tedros did is cr*minal on a scale with Tojo and Hitler and Stalin and Mao. And with his professional knowledge of infectious diseases, he knew exactly what he was doing.

          And he has the gall to ask the world for more hundreds of millions? For what? A job well done? I note that the CCP just gave him $150 million.

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      • #
        Yonniestone

        Its the minority that commit the crimes but the peaceful majority are irrelevant.

        Brigitte Gabriel gave a great explanation in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s please watch.

        10

    • #
      PeterS

      I agree 100% but I think most of the time when we mention China we mean the government not the population. So to be clear we should use the term CCP or CPC as both are the same.

      40

    • #
      DOC

      I don’t believe your premise is correct. Mostly on this blog people address remarks
      as ‘China’ or ‘CCP’. Indeed, in one of the recent ‘threads’ we were all reminded to
      watch this form of address by either Jo or the Moderator. I don’t recall any references
      as ‘the Chinese’ but dare say it happened to have the moderation. People are careful,
      but either ‘China’ or ‘the CCP’ are terms that effectively address the outcomes of
      governance, the moves by that nation.

      51

    • #
      nb

      I conflate the Chinese people with the CCP because I see little resistance. In Hong Kong a half of the population are pro CCP. So let’s not get too carried away. Notoriously, the Chinese in Australia during the late 19C argued against democracy as they could not abide the idea of a self-governing people. They required an elite class of rulers.
      In China there are clear cases of resistance, such as those who protest in Hong Kong. But on the mainland there is much racism, much jingoism, much conformity. IF the Chinese wish to be considered apart from the CCP let them show why.

      11

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  • #
    Jerry in New Jersey

    Looking forward to a good rant about why the US DHS study concerning the impact of sunshine and warm weather on the virus. Maybe use a paragraph or two to relate the study to the “good luck” causing the low death rate in Australia too…Rant on!!!

    30

  • #
    Roger Knights

    Here’s a long exculpatory piece, from America’s National Public Radio, in need of a critique:

    https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/23/841729646/virus-researchers-cast-doubt-on-theory-of-coronavirus-lab-accident
    Virus Researchers Cast Doubt On Theory Of Coronavirus Lab Accident
    NPR: April 23, 2020 7:08 AM ET
    GEOFF BRUMFIEL EMILY KWONG

    “The assessment, made by more than half-a-dozen scientists familiar with lab accidents and how research on coronaviruses is conducted, casts doubt on recent claims that a mistake may have unleashed the coronavirus on the world.”

    10

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Lab researchers keen to deflect any attention to their research
      And deflect any blame as well.

      20

    • #
      nb

      Sure, so the best response to a lab accident is to destroy the evidence, close down the literature, disallow inspections, pretend there was a wet market incident then pretend there is no wet market, jail whistleblowers, deny what is going on, get the UN to deny what is going on, and let infected people travel the world. No probs. I guess that is what is in the UN handbook for pandemic response.

      10

  • #
    Selwyn H

    Interesting that the “Rhinolophus affinus” horseshoe bat faeces sample found in Shitou Cave, south of Kunming, the capital of Yunnan in 2013 was given the identification number RatG13 and sent to the Institute of Virology in Wuhan for testing where it was found to contain a virus very similar to Covid-19. Coincidently 2020 is the year of the RAT in Chinese mythology. After the exodus of around 5 million people from Wuhan City for Chinese New Year in mid January to all parts of China and the world the infection rate in Chinese cities compared with Italy is ridiculously low. Even allowing for early lockdowns in other cities after the Wuhan lockdown on 23 January the infection would have already spread to Shanghai (30 million people) and Beijing. I smell a very large “RAT”!

    50

  • #
    Speedy

    China were slow in REPORTING the virus, but they were pretty swift in EXPORTING it. Once the virus was identified, the CCP stopped local flights but continued with international ones. In fact, they got very upset when countries like Australia and the USA put them under quarantine.
    The CCP’s behaviour is tantamount to murder.

    130

    • #
      PeterS

      Good way of looking at it.

      30

    • #
      george1st:)

      Which is exactly why they should be made to pay .
      Culpability is 100% , needless loss of lives cannot never be resumed .
      Economies destroyed can never be repaid either .
      Perhaps a liitle remorse and admission of errors by the CCP would go a long way to help reconciliation .
      Sorry , dreaming again .

      60

    • #

      Speedy, I looked into that and found mixed stories — both that the CCP left flights open out of Wuhan from Jan 23 and that they stopped flights. It would be good if someone has time to dig into this and find out the truth. Did China allow international flights from Wuhan after it stopped internal movement out of Wuhan.

      There is also the point the question of our culpability. Our own leaders should surely at the same point have stopped accepting flights from China (did we have intelligence from China, or even just maybe someone reading Twitter?)

      Our defense Minister was told it was preventable and curable, but could see China was reacting like this was the plague and was stopping all travel internally out of the region.

      31

      • #
        PeterS

        True. Our leaders are always slow to react due to a number of reasons, one of them is their “ivory tower” life styles. The other in this case is they placed too much trust in the WHO who advised at the start there was nothing wrong. The buck stops with our leaders especially when it comes to international affairs.

        20

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        It was Hunt the Health minister
        Or maybe the Foreign Affairs & Trade minister
        Who’s job it is
        to look out for these type of issues.
        And of course the Australian embassy in Beijing.
        I wonder whether they were asleep at the wheel when this all happened in January.

        02

      • #
        Lucky

        Yes.
        Governments (Australia and many others) at that time failed.
        They believed China and WHO, But better contact and relationship with Taiwan would have helped.
        Taiwan had plans in place for such events, they had up-to-date information, they knew what to do,
        and they did it.

        20

    • #
      nb

      ‘The CCP’s behaviour is tantamount to murder.’
      The CCP’s behaviour is tantamount to murder.

      00

  • #
    WXcycles

    AFRICA:

    (16th April to 23rd April)

    African Countries – Change in Totals over 7 days:
    https://i.ibb.co/NjSYFgF/Africa-7-day-Totals.png

    African Countries – Percent Spread over 7 days
    https://i.ibb.co/6FH4DJ1/Africa-Country-7-day-percent-spread.png

    African Countries – Percent Died over 7 days
    https://i.ibb.co/gW1cfm5/Africa-Country-percent-died.png

    Africa – Continent-Wide Totals
    https://i.ibb.co/k0YmMN8/Africa-Country-Totals.png

    Africa has 17,682 active cases today. It averages 1,323 new cases per day during the past week. Active cases grew 55.7% in 7 days, averaging 8.0% growth per day. Over the next 4 weeks if the active cases keep growing at the current average growth of 8.0% per day, this is the result:

    Date | Active Cases Total
    23-Apr … 17,682
    30-Apr … 30,304
    01-May … 32,728
    07-May … 51,935
    14-May … 89,008
    21-May … 152,544
    28-May … 261,434

    So Africa’s infection won’t become an issue until the second half of May. But would reach ~1 million cases near June 15th. Action will of course be taken in the intervening period to push the active totals lower during mid-June. So not much will be said about Africa for about another 3 to 4 weeks (until ~2 weeks before Winter begins).

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    • #
      WXcycles

      Countries with more than 250 dead, and above 2.5 % died:

      % Died | Country | Total Deaths | New Deaths
      15.16 … Belgium … 6,490 … 228
      13.82 … France … 21,856 … 516
      13.57 … UK … 18,738 … 638
      13.54 … Algeria … 407 … 5
      13.45 … Italy … 25,549 … 464
      12.06 … Sweden … 2021 … 84
      11.69 … Netherlands … 4,177 … 123
      10.40 … Spain … 22,157 … 440
      9.20 … Mexico … 970 … 113
      8.32 … Indonesia … 647 … 12
      7.38 … Egypt … 287 … 11
      6.69 … Brazil … 3,313 … 407
      6.62 … Philippines … 462 … 16
      6.30 … Iran … 5,481 … 90
      5.66 … USA … 49,769 … 2,110
      5.59 … China … 4,632 … 0
      5.44 … Switzerland … 1,549 … 40
      5.40 … Romania … 545 … 21
      5.10 … Canada … 2,147 … 173
      5.01 … Ecuador … 560 … 23
      4.88 … Denmark … 394 … 10
      4.78 … Dominican Republic … 265 … 5
      4.51 … Ireland … 794 … 25
      4.32 … Poland … 454 … 28
      3.67 … Portugal … 820 … 35
      3.64 … Germany … 5,575 … 260
      3.48 … Austria … 522 … 12
      3.13 … India … 721 … 40
      2.74 … Peru … 572 … 42
      2.50 … Japan … 299 … 0

      Countries over 1,500 actives, sorted by spreading percent:

      % New v Active | Country | Active Cases | New Cases
      19.1 … Brazil … 19,606 … 3,735
      15.0 … Mexico … 6,947 … 1043
      13.2 … South Africa … 2,405 … 318
      12.9 … Peru … 12,920 … 1,664
      12.3 … Ireland … 7,580 … 936
      11.6 … Pakistan … 8,485 … 981
      10.5 … Belarus … 7,024 … 741
      10.5 … Bangladesh … 3,951 … 414
      10.1 … Singapore … 10,242 … 1037
      9.7 … Saudi Arabia … 11,884 … 1,158
      9.6 … India … 17,306 … 1,669
      9.0 … Kazakhstan … 1,709 … 154
      8.9 … Egypt … 2,600 … 232
      8.9 … Ukraine … 6,479 … 578
      8.9 … Qatar … 7,004 … 623
      8.8 … Chile … 5,840 … 516
      8.3 … Russia … 57,327 … 4,774
      8.0 … Kuwait … 1,887 … 151
      7.6 … Canada … 25,202 … 1,920
      7.3 … Finland … 2,112 … 155
      7.3 … UAE … 7,063 … 518
      7.0 … Denmark … 2,295 … 161
      7.0 … Hungary … 1,655 … 116
      6.8 … Moldova … 2,185 … 148
      6.3 … Argentina … 2,351 … 147
      6.2 … Iran … 16,702 … 1,030
      6.0 … Colombia … 3,419 … 205
      5.8 … Indonesia … 6,168 … 357
      5.6 … Germany … 44,254 … 2,481
      5.5 … Romania … 7,073 … 386
      5.3 … Sweden … 14,184 … 751
      5.2 … Dominican Republic … 4,697 … 243
      4.7 … Philippines … 5,797 … 271
      4.6 … Spain … 101,617 … 4,635
      4.1 … USA … 744,037 … 30,713
      4.1 … Morocco … 2,957 … 122
      4.1 … Poland … 8,317 … 342
      3.9 … Turkey … 80,808 … 3,116
      3.9 … UK … 118,996 … 4,583
      3.7 … Panama … 4,593 … 171
      3.6 … Malaysia … 1,966 … 71
      3.6 … Switzerland … 6,347 … 228
      3.6 … Ecuador … 9,295 … 333
      3.4 … Belgium … 26,507 … 908
      3.4 … Israel … 9,000 … 305
      3.1 … Greece … 1,761 … 55
      2.8 … Netherlands … 31,302 … 887
      2.8 … Austria … 2,786 … 77
      2.7 … Serbia … 6,074 … 162
      2.5 … Italy … 106,848 … 2,646
      2.4 … France … 94,239 … 2,239
      1.8 … Portugal … 20,332 … 371
      1.2 … Australia … 1,547 … 18
      1.1 … Czechia … 4,825 … 55
      0.9 … Norway … 7,175 … 63
      0.4 … S. Korea … 2,051 … 8
      0.4 … Luxembourg … 2,854 … 11
      0.0 … Japan … 10,227 … 0

      % Died | Country | Total Deaths | New Deaths
      1.12 … Australia … 75 … 1
      1.10 … New Zealand … 16 … 2

      % New v Active | Country | Active cases | New Cases
      1.2 … Australia … 1,547 … 18
      0.8 … New Zealand … 370 … 3

      Australia:
      Confirmed Cases: 6,675
      Recovered Cases = 5,126
      Active Cases = 1,471 (current) … 108 recoveries last 24 hrs.
      Deaths = 75
      New Cases = 18

      32

  • #
    GTB

    Is it possible that those who have had the flu vaccination would give a false positive to the corona virus test?
    Just wondering.
    G

    20

    • #

      No. They are very different viruses. Different families. Influenza are negative sense RNA and multiple strands. They bind to different receptors. So antibodies generated are to different kinds of viral spikes. And the code is “opposite” mirror coding.

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  • #
    justjoshin

    Give them the North Korea treatment? Ca you imagine the Chinese response to that? It seems likely to trigger a war.

    There will be a fair bit of pain as the west scramble to shift its supply chain out of China. It might just move some secondary and tertiary industry back home.

    I think you will see a lot of countries giving incentives to move manufacturing out of China.

    20

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      I suspect Beijing’s “god” is mammon…..so yes, losing cash flow will very much mess with them.

      10

    • #
      WXcycles

      … It seems likely to trigger a war. …

      Isn’t what they’re going in many areas pushing confrontation? Seriously, who builds a massive fleet of hundreds of ocean going dredges then goes and misappropriates the global commons destroys coral reefs and covers the resulting dry ground with hundreds of weapons of war pointed at the neighbors and does not know they’re likely to incite a war from that behavior alone?

      But I’m sure getting very tired of having their disgusting ‘perspectives’ fed back to us by the media as a rationale for why it’s OK for the CCP to incite war with Asia and the wider world. This is just another variation on a theme of what we saw in the 1930s.

      40

    • #
      nb

      ‘But I’m sure getting very tired of having their disgusting ‘perspectives’ fed back to us by the media as a rationale for why it’s OK for the CCP to incite war with Asia and the wider world.’
      Yep. Marxist media loves a communist.

      00

  • #
    OriginalSteve

    ‘Repeat virus patients may not be contagious’: KCDC

    http://m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20200422000768

    “NATIONALSocial Affairs
    ‘Repeat virus patients may not be contagious’: KCDC

    By Kim Bo-gyung

    Published : Apr 22, 2020 – 17:08
    Updated : Apr 23, 2020 – 17:38

    (Yonhap)

    “South Korea’s health authorities said Wednesday that patients who test positive for the novel coronavirus after making a full recovery may have little or no chance of infecting others.

    “The center has completed in-depth examinations of six relapse cases and in all of them, the virus was detected in the patient’s body in polymerase chain reaction testing, widely used for COVID-19 diagnosis. But when the pathogen was separated out and cultivated, nothing came out, according to the Korea Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    “”That they showed to be negative in culture test has led us to think the (repeat patients) may have little or no infectivity,” KCDC Director General Jeong Eun-kyeong said during a daily update on the novel coronavirus situation.

    20

  • #
    OriginalSteve

    https://nypost.com/2020/04/02/hydroxychloroquine-most-effective-coronavirus-treatment-poll/

    “Hydroxychloroquine rated ‘most effective’ coronavirus treatment, poll of doctors finds

    Play Video

    “An international poll of thousands of doctors rated the Trump-touted anti-malaria drug hydroxychloroquine the best treatment for the novel coronavirus.

    “Of the 2,171 physicians surveyed, 37 percent rated hydroxychloroquine the “most effective therapy” for combating the potentially deadly illness, according to the results released Thursday.

    “The survey, conducted by the global health care polling company Sermo, also found that 23 percent of medical professionals had prescribed the drug in the US — far less than other countries.

    ““Outside the US, hydroxychloroquine was equally used for diagnosed patients with mild to severe symptoms whereas in the US it was most commonly used for high risk diagnosed patients,” the survey found

    30

  • #
    OriginalSteve

    At least France is being honest….unlike here….

    Funny how apps of exact same functionality roll out globally at same time. Wouldn’t you call that a conspiracy?

    https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2020/04/22/france-apple-google-ditch-privacy-protections-during-pandemic/

    “France has become the first country in the world to openly call on Silicon Valley tech giants to remove privacy protections during the Chinese coronavirus pandemic, in order to introduce a “sovereign European health solution” that would track the movements of citizens.

    “The French government is aiming to unveil a contact tracing app by May 11th, when the country is expected to ease national lockdown measures that were introduced in March.

    “France and the European Union as a whole have come out in favour of a centralised approach to the tracking of citizens, in which data would be stored in government servers and monitored by state health services.

    “Currently, Apple’s operating system would prevent such an approach, as its Bluetooth function prohibits constant background tracking if the data is to be moved off the device. France claims that this privacy protection would prevent the government from developing its contact tracing app.

    ““We’re asking Apple to lift the technical hurdle to allow us to develop a sovereign European health solution that will be tied our health system,” France’s digital minister, Cédric O, told Bloomberg News.

    00

    • #
      WXcycles

      If the aim is emitter signal tracking this can already be done by the ISP. So why does a democratic Govt need access to the operating system and thus the private files to track the emitted signal?

      They don’t.

      So this request is not about tracking virus cases or tracing transmission connections. So it’s about pure spying and the virus as cover.

      10

  • #
    DonS

    Hi Jo

    I see China has locked down another province due to an outbreak. What’s that, the 3rd time they have done this since they told us they had control of the virus and the W.H.O. praised their efforts? What a joke!

    I also see that the poster child for lifting the lockdown, Taiwan, have announced a large outbreak among mostly naval personnel and are considering putting in place a strong lockdown to get it under control.

    This virus seems very persistent and I don’t know how this will all end but locking us down until our economy reaches the green paradise of a pre stone age level is probably not the way to go. I agree with the lockdown as a way to buy time to figure out what to do next but the clock is ticking and I see no evidence our leaders are doing much more than hopping for a miracle vaccine to appear.

    At some point someone will need to make a decision to lift much of the lockdown, I’m just glad it’s not me who will either be proclaimed a great leader or a mass murderer depending on how it goes.

    41

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Don, Each country is different.
      Each has it’s own strategy and conditions to work with
      I’m in Australia and am quite happy now with how our leaders are dealing with the pandemic disease.
      We are indeed almost through the infection phase
      And can now loo to relaxing some of the lockdown restrictions
      But where are you ?

      03

    • #
      WXcycles

      Don, limited closures are to be expected, I expect to see them in Australia, and lots of them elsewhere, to manage emerging clusters of cases. But if more than 90% of the economy remains functioning we can work with that. At the moment it looks like we can re-open in under 2 months of total isolation time, and that’s a lot better than the, “at least six months”, discussed by ScoMo at the beginning.

      Which means a lot of the support money budgeted and allocated will not need to be be spent and our debt growth will be that much lower, with more latitude to cover costs with AUD quantitative easing and stimulus to keep priming the economy out of the initial malaise. We’ve hibernated the economy, we did not shut it down. I don’t know about you but I have stuff to do, things to buy at the end of the lock-down. I expect I’m not Robinson Crusoe.

      10

  • #
    UK-Weather Lass

    In the fullness of time perhaps we will come to note that Covid-19 was the infection that stopped our love affair with the short term thinking and opportunism that has contributed to our reduced capacity to see a bigger picture, a longer term game, and a lasting need for the maverick, the diversity of thought, rather than the mistaken comforts of consensus folly however it manifests itself.

    We should be blaming ourselves for drifting into unknown territory rather than having the old fashioned resolve to know what we are doing, what we need to do next, and why it is necessary to do what must be done. There will always be ‘China Syndromes’ no matter how we seek to avoid them because that is the nature of our species whenever corners are cut, or speed of results is seen to be more important than progress.

    If we want change then we must be that change.

    31

  • #
    el gordo

    HK soon to lift restrictions.

    ‘With no new cases, officials have cancelled the daily press conference at 4.30pm, held jointly by the Department of Health and the Hospital Authority.’ SCMP

    10

  • #
    Lucky

    The optimistic, if unlikely, resolution is for the people of China to act with own resources and from their own traditions.

    Confucius advocated loyalty to the State and family values.
    He taught that the leader should always be respected.
    The teaching of relevance here is-

    The Emperor must be respected.
    When leadership is good then of course you give respect.
    When leadership is average you respect the leader.
    If leadership is bad you should respect the leader.
    If the leader is so bad that the existence of the State is threatened
    and the people foresee only unending disaster- Kill him.

    00

  • #
    ramblingidiot

    “China handled this outbreak with its trademark mixture of dishonesty, incompetence and thuggery. Were China a more civilized nation, this outbreak would have been stopped early…”

    Bwahahahahah. Puh-lease, some of us are adults. Which country bungled its early response to the virus? Which country is spending most of its trillions of bailout money on corrupt corporates?

    00

  • #
    WPeter

    “China needs to be isolated from the civilized world until its behavior improves.”

    Great idea. That’s what we did to Japan after WW1. That worked really well.

    00

  • #
    nb

    “China needs to be isolated from the civilized world until its behavior improves.”
    Great idea. That’s what we did to Japan after WW1. That worked really well.

    Isolation, no. Serious repositioning of the West with China, yes.

    10

  • #
    nb

    A useful short documentary showing why China cannot be trusted in any matter. China kills.
    ‘The CCP Method: The coronavirus outbreak is the latest wakeup call’ at
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH35390sFrk

    10