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How dare you steal my dreams for a sensible democracy!

Adam Bandt, Greens MP, set up a  Parliamentary Committee on Climate Action which aims to declare a Climate Emergency in Australia. Five Liberal (conservatives) have signed up to the chicken-entrails committee.

Rowan Dean has a message on Sky News for Tim Wilson, Dave Sharma, Jason Falinski, Katie Allen, Angie Bell and Trent Zimmerman, said in a Swedishy indignant voice

How Dare You!

You have stolen my dreams and my hopes for a sensible conservative government with your empty words like renewables and climate emergencies.

People are being conned, people are being hoodwinked,

Entire educational standards are collapsing before our eyes…

 I would add: How dare you wreck a perfectly good civilization based on nothing more than inept simulations from an immature crystal ball gazing science, staffed with B-grade, aggrandizing pretenders that hide declines, fiddle data, and think namecalling is an analytical technique.

How dare you exploit the weak minded, inciting the gullibles to break the law and glue themselves to crosswalks!

we are in the middle of a mass hysterical climate delusion,

and all you can talk about is meeting our Paris commitments.

How dare you throw away the legacy of the Menzies years, by joining this neo marxist mad greenie socialist climate cult,

You say you are liberals and that you believe in nationalism but I don’t trust you because you are globalists….

and that would mean that you are evil and that I refuse to believe,

How dare you pretend that this is about anything other than trying to shore up your own seats at the expense of the poor and the sick and the elderly, who must freeze through the winter, and have no air conditioning through the summer…

If you vote for a climate emergency I say we will never forgive you…

One day we will be pulling out of Paris whether you like it or not.

h/t GreatAuntJanet and AndyG

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Rating: 9.7/10 (124 votes cast)
How dare you steal my dreams for a sensible democracy!, 9.7 out of 10 based on 124 ratings

253 comments to How dare you steal my dreams for a sensible democracy!

  • #
    Kalm Keith

    While in NZ have watched CNN and Aljazeera where levels of sanctimonious attack and hyperverbalism have been overpowering.
    There’s little “debate” just crushing presentation of the facts as seen by the presenter.

    We are a long way from reality here when the only acceptable form of existence is Victimhood.

    Such qualities as integrity, personal decency, thrift, work ethic and the like are pushed away.

    KK

    340

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      …and of course when everyone is spending….no one is footing the bill and it will all eventually collapse.

      Socialism is the exercise of irresponsible everything…. no wonder it always collapses…..

      Stupid is as stupid does.

      310

      • #
        el gordo

        This has nothing to do with socialism, the socialists with Chinese characteristics are building coal fired power stations and Dave Sharma is not a pseudo Marxist.

        The prospect of the world ending through human folly is of religious significance.

        93

        • #
          PeterW

          Socialism has always been about destroying free society.

          BY DEFINITION, it is Government control of Production, Distribution and Exchange. “Climate Emergency” is just the latest excuse for achieving more of that desired control.

          The major Socialist economies are just demonstrating how little they actually care about “climate”, once they have the power they seek.

          It’s about POWER, stupid.

          251

          • #
            el gordo

            ‘It’s about POWER, stupid.’

            That is human nature, politics is only a reflection of the phenomenon.

            China is communist in name only, they are closer to fascism with four classes. They are working to eliminate SOE and uplift the Third World through the Belt and Road, its a new form of capitalism.

            Have you considered the possibility that Beijing is a benevolent dictatorship?

            39

            • #
              PeterS

              Comparing fascism with communism is moot. They overlap so much it’s not worth distinguishing them. That’s why I consider the Greens being as much as fascists or neo-Nazis as being communists. They all pretty much have the same goals and end up with the same results.

              130

            • #
              Annie

              Not very benevolent towards Christians, Uighars and democracy-loving Hong Kong residents EG.

              100

              • #
                el gordo

                When it comes to their own people, Beijing behaves like a bull in a China shop.

                HK cannot be saved, the lease is up.

                22

        • #
          PeterS

          Socialism is a broad spectrum of which Chinese communism is just one example and Nazism is another. It’s very likely the main driving force behind the protests is a hatred of the West for a number of reason. They will go to any length to destroy the West and in that case can be called traitors, much like radical terrorists but for a different reason. In our democracy we can’t stop people protesting peacefully but the what we can and should be put them behind bars for length periods if they protest with violence and/or disrupt the peace for the rest of the population who are performing their normal duties as good citizens. Governments of both persuasions are far too soft on some of the these protesters.

          The world will not end. It will change dramatically. It has to in order to survive. We can’t keep going the way we are. For example, eventually planet destroying weapons will be developed and once they fall into the hands of a maniac the world would end. So mankind has to change to avoid such an outcome. How that change will occur depends on ones world-view and belief system. This is not the place to discuss them.

          141

          • #
            theRealUniverse

            ‘ They will go to any length to destroy the West ‘ That is not in Chinese philosophy which is much older than the CPC (read Confucianist Party..) You have to go back 2000 years and look at Rome (I came I saw I conquered) vers Post Qin China. Western Europe and USA isnt China and China isnt Western, and never will be. China has for 3000 years been run by top down bureaucracy, same now, nothing with ‘communism’. Take a close look at India by example. Run for years by imperialism.

            20

        • #
          glen Michel

          What is Sharma then? Maybe the federal member for the seat of Wentworth. Probably explains a lot. Zimmermann is, well,ahhh…. a….

          21

  • #
    Yonniestone

    The 2019 election was run and won on the so called climate issue and these clowns still can’t see how that happened, there must be a lot of secret investors in renewables out there because being this ignorant is beyond belief, I hope they don’t operate machinery.

    430

    • #
      PeterS

      There are some in the LNP that also believe the path to renewables is the solution to avoid a climate catastrophe. Pragmatism though will win in the end as long as it’s not too late. To make sure it does win we need a strong leader to fight the war against the climate alarmists, much like Winston Churchill was elected to fight the war against Nazi Germany. Up until now we have an appeaser much like Neville Chamberlain who eventually saw the dangers of Hitler and started to re-arm but was too slow. They needed Churchill to speed things up significantly and openly declare war, something that Chamberlain very likely would have done anyway but too late. I just hope Morrison is turning more into a Churchill and not staying as a Chamberlain. Time will tell.

      111

      • #
        Graeme No.3

        PeterS:
        check you history. Chamberlain was the one who declared war. Re-armament in the UK started in the early 1930′s with the Navy and the Air Force. The Army was last on the list for funds.
        Unfortunately the bureaucrats in the Air Ministry (and many senior officers) had fallen under the influence of “the bomber will always get through” cult. Hundreds of millions were wasted building useless bombers which ended up scrapped, while fighters were neglected (neither the Spitfire nor the Hurricane were wanted, indeed the Air Ministry tried to cancel the first, and had to accept the second when it started being sold overseas).
        The net result was that the UK would up with a superior Navy (thanks to German indifference) an inadequate Air Force and a hopelessly inadequate Army, and this was achieved with (possibly) spending as much as Germany.

        81

        • #
          PeterS

          I stand corrected, yes Chamberlain declared war and did so under some pressure from others including Churchill. Let’s see if the analogy still remains. Will Morrison declare “war” on the climate change alarmists or will he keep on appeasing them by following the Paris Agreement to the full? For him to be “fair dinkum” like Chamberlain in the late stages he must stop boasting about how we will meet the target, which actually is becoming doubtful anyway according to some. If he was really clever like Trump he should have started proceedings to break away from the Paris Agreement immediately after he had won the election.

          80

        • #
          Another Ian

          Have a read of Len Dighton’s “Fighter” to see how what fighters they did have was a lot more luck than you’d imagine – until Churchill made Beaverbrook Minister for Aircraft Production.

          And Hurricane, Spitfire and Merlin all started as “private ventures”

          50

      • #
        DaveR

        Spot on PeterS. There are still many in the Morrison government who are fully onboard the climate catastrophe deception. Frydenberg was not just a minion following orders when he crafted the flawed NEG. He was an enthusiastic believer, and indications are he still is today. He will be a significant problem for the LN coalition winding back renewables subsidies, which it must urgently do to stabilise energy investment, but also to fund drought relief and long-delayed water infrastructure. Interestingly, those policy/funding changes would be a great vote winner for both country and suburban electorates (but not inner city socialist areas).

        120

    • #
      Graham Richards

      The majority of the electorate will remember these dangerous individuals come the next General Election. Australia cannot afford a parliament split by ideologies based on fiction!

      20

  • #
    Svend Ferdinandsen

    What is the meaning of climate emergency? Is the weather gone berzerk, so that peoble and infrastruture needs to be saved, protected and repaired.
    I wonder what actions they have in mind, and if they would help in any way.
    It could mean that real emergencies is not taken care of because all effort are used for that imaginary emergency. And last, would the climate and weather change?

    252

    • #
      David Wojick

      Ironically, every declaration of “climate emergency” that I have looked at had no action items. It was just a meaningless declaration. In which case I am happy they are wasting their energy on nothing.

      When your opponent is dithering uselessly don’t try to stop them.

      290

      • #
        PeterS

        Provided they don’t use violence and/or disrupt other people’s lives too much. Once they step over the line, and they have done so on occasion, action should be taken to stop them, and repeat offenders be put behind bars for lengthy periods.

        150

      • #
        Lionell Griffith

        They are also wasting our hard earned wealth on nothing. They are nothing but a bunch of intellectual bullies and thieves.

        Unfortunately, we act as if there is nothing we can do about it but complain that they won’t follow the facts. Can’t you understand, they don’t care about facts? Reality is totally beside the point for them. All they care about is the power to destroy anything that it good BECAUSE it is good.

        160

      • #
        Greg in NZ

        0800 HELP ME!

        The wind is blowing, pressure’s dropping,
        leaves are flying, ocean’s chopping,
        rain is coming, trees are humming,
        this has never happened before!
        Waa waa waaaaaaa . . .

        Ooh I love a good old nor’easter stormy.
        Joy to the world ♬ ♬ ♬

        200

        • #
          theRealUniverse

          I suspect the great ‘kick up the bum’ by the GSM wont come soon enough..Even though it may mean tough times.
          As for this idiotic declaration, not enough voices against it? Are they all gutless?

          30

      • #

        The Declaration of Climate Emergencies is not meaningless. As I posted before, those who break the law in protest can use these declarations to argue they were only doing what a reasonable person would in an emergency.

        http://joannenova.com.au/2019/09/the-unseen-danger-of-declaring-fake-climate-emergencies/

        180

        • #
          DaveR

          Even more than that Jo,

          take documents from local contact group Breakthrough (National Center for Climate Restoration) sent to local councils. These documents were written in the UK and only slightly altered for Australian use.

          In it they say councils should use “any existing emergency laws” such as for bushfires, terrorist attacks etc because of the severity of the “climate emergency”

          The say councils can unilaterally implement new regulations because of the severity of the “climate emergency”….

          Because these councils are in “Emergency mode” they do not need to abide by their normal democratic principles of proposal, debate and voting, and can act unilaterally.

          The documents say councils announcing a Climate Emergency must then enact, among other things: immediate changes to council planning codes; the banning of natural gas connections to new homes and businesses; the conversion of all council vehicles to electric; and the forcing of all private businesses within the council Shire to be carbon neutral within 10 years.

          And there are more.

          None of this has anything to do with the democratic process.

          60

          • #
            OriginalSteve

            Correct.

            Anything they can do to subvert democracy and the rule of law, they will do.

            Put another way – anyone who aids and provides comfort to a “climate emergency” is either a gullible fool or outright undermining democracy, which could be technically a subversive act, and could be tried as tr*****n?

            I suspect the law is similar here :

            https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-115

            “Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.”

            50

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            Illuminating.

            20

        • #
          Ian Hill

          It’s the only “emergency” I’ve seen which is not urgent.

          60

      • #
        Russ Wood

        I would say that an unstated ‘action item’ is “Let’s get as much moola from the sheeple before they twig”.

        40

    • #
      Dennis

      It’s a Church of Climate Change emergency, the preachers and scientologists are losing too many once true believers from the congregation of the gullible.

      90

  • #
    Lance

    What all of these clowns seem to be missing is that NONE of their “solutions” will work in sufficient quantity to achieve their claimed goals.

    From the perspective of “Can it be done?”, the answer is NO.

    Batteries, Wind and Solar are resource limited endeavours.

    The raw minerals, steel, concrete, silver, neodymium, cobalt, lithium, etc, DO NOT EXIST in sufficient quantity to build the solar panels, wind turbines, batteries, distribution systems, etc. AT ALL, EVER.

    The manufacturing capacity DOES NOT EXIST to make all of these useless things.

    A sufficient quantity of installers/erectors DO NOT EXIST to do the work in 10 yrs even if the other problems were solved.

    Even if all of this were solved, the entire transmission, primary and secondary distribution, substations, pole/pad transformers, etc would all have to be replaced to handle the load as well as all service entrances, circuit breaker main panels, underground and overhead wiring, switchgear, protective relaying, etc.

    The money to finance this boondoggle doesn’t exist either.

    Greens don’t want new dams or nuke plants or coal or gas generation. I guess they like darkness, starvation, poverty and disease.

    It doesn’t matter if they are right or wrong on CO2, their solutions are impossible to accomplish in less than a century and only if 7 times the total world mineral reserves can be located, mined, and processed in time. Oh, and that is just to supply all of these things for the USA baseload grid, not including a 300% capacity increase to charge all of those EVs in 8 hours.

    To quote an old economics professor of mine:

    “That which cannot be done, will not be done”.

    “That which cannot be paid, will not be paid”.

    These people are utterly insane.

    360

    • #
      David Wojick

      That what they want is impossible may be a good thing, if it keeps the moderate alarmists from doing bad things that can be done.

      https://www.cfact.org/2019/09/28/is-climate-alarmism-tearing-itself-apart/

      120

      • #
        Lance

        The danger, David, is misallocation of resources and distortion of energy and financial markets.

        Not being able to achieve their goals will prevent them from being successful at those goals, but in the meantime their frantic handwaving and navel gazing and political and economic coercion are needlessly wasting money on what will ultimately fail.

        The materials, money, and resources, would be better applied to other things that are achievable and realistic.

        260

        • #
          DMA

          So true! The wasted money and effort aimed at mitigating the greenhouse effect are lost with no hope of accomplishing anything to do with the climate. See( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfRBr7PEawY ) for an explanation of the new analysis of 20 million radiosondes that proves there is no greenhouse effect in our atmosphere. The hypothesis that our CO2 emissions will cause climate change is falsified so any effort to reduce the nonexistent effect is utterly wasted.

          150

          • #
            Mark D.

            really interesting presentation DMA.

            30

          • #
            OriginalSteve

            Just as the USA wrecked the Soviet Union financially with its huge spending to try and out do the USA at a fake “Star Wars” program – the greenists dont care whether they wreck our economy via war, violence of financial ruinb – the aim is the take down of the middle class…..

            50

            • #
              Ted O'Brien.

              The USA wrecked the Soviet Union? That was very, very different.

              The USA did indeed engage in a huge sabre rattling exerise, for the purpose you indicate. But the Soviet regime was nearing the end of its natural life anyway.

              Marxism is a doctrine of hate that grew from the social horrors of nineteenth century Europe. One of the fundamental facts of human nature is that first hand information takes precedence over second hand information. So the horrendous oppression that marked the Soviet regime depended on first hand memory of how bad things were before the revolution. Only that memory could suppress admission of how bad things were after the revolution.

              So it was predictable that once the old guard had faded from influence there would be a massive shift in the management of Soviet society. Sanity might get a look in.

              The turnaround started with the Viet Nam war. The result there was always seen as a failure for the US and its allies, but it did in fact achieve the US objective, though at a far greater cost than anticipated. That objective was to hold up the Soviet war machine until it ran out of puff. Which, in the environment I described, it did. After Viet Nam they had just one more puff left in them. They wasted it in Afghanistan.

              So when Reagan embarked on his Star Wars program the USSR was ready to notice the cost and the futility of wasted enterprise. The final straw for the old system was the melt down at Chernobyl. This left the USSR facing the prospect of famine. But the US just happened to have 50 million tonnes of surplus wheat, the product of a trade war with Europe. That surplus flowed to cheaply relieve the scarcity in the USSR, and made it impossible to pretend any longer that the Soviets had a better system of government.

              10

        • #
          David Wojick

          Lance, you may have misunderstood my point. The wasteful actions you refer to are being done by the moderates, who are in power. The rise of the extremists is a hinderence to them, so I like it.

          70

          • #
            bobl

            Three problems with this idea, 1. The extremists pull the moderates left. 2. The extremists provide cover for the moderates to waste money even more so more cancer patients die for want of a cure while trillions are spent on useless tithes to the gods of global warming. 3. In Australia the declaration of an emergency can allow access to certain funding if the states/federal governments also declare. It may also allow councils to lay their hands on funds set aside for real emergencies like bushfires, droughts or flooding rains.

            I want to see a cancer emergency, the cancer epidemic is more relevant than AGW.

            50

            • #
              David Wojick

              I want them pulled to the left because there are fewer votes over there. For example the Democrat candidates for president endorsing the green new deal Is good for Trump.

              20

      • #
        PeterW

        David…

        Utopia is impossible to achieve…… but that has not stopped ideologues killing hundreds of millions of people and oppressing a billion more in an effort to achieve it.

        That is the record of Socialism.

        120

        • #
          David Wojick

          Yes but the new Utopians have no power and are not going to get any. They just make alarmism look bad.

          60

    • #

      Can it be done is irrelevant when what they want to do is completely unnecessary.

      The science needs to be corrected, but since collusion between the IPCC and UNFCCC replaces the usual methods for advancing and/or correcting climate science, what needs to be done is currently impossible.

      80

      • #
        Lance

        Ordinarily, and Logically, I’d agree with you.

        However, the Greens primary argument is that it IS necessary to do what they want to do.

        That is their “hook” for everything else they espouse.

        My point is that it doesn’t matter if it IS or ISn’t necessary. The goal is impossible to achieve.

        That changes the dynamic from arguing what is “necessary” to what is “possible or impossible”.

        You’ll never win the argument about “what is necessary”.

        You might win the argument about what is “possible or impossible”.

        Barring that discussion, I’d guard my savings and invest in lots, and lots, of Lead.

        30

      • #
        sophocles

        Isn’t the IPCC a subsidiary of the UNFCCC?
        Collusion is a matter of course for parent and child organisations.

        10

        • #

          The UNFCCC was established as an ‘independent’ part of the UN a few years after the first IPCC report was published in order to establish the need for its preordained agenda, however; its existence is predicated on what science the IPCC chooses to include in its summary reports as they define the so called ‘consensus’. As a result, the two organizations are linked at the hip by a conflict of interest. The conflict is that unless the effect of CO2 is large enough to be catastrophic, neither organization has a reason to exist. This institutional bias has been distorting climate science for decades. Unfortunately, many of their most egregious errors have been canonized as ‘settled’ science by inclusion in IPCC reports making correcting the science almost impossible.

          10

  • #

    Turnbull, Phelps…and now Dave Sharma.

    It’s time for a full purge of Wentworth. Ban the use of tennis balls in daylight hours Mon-Fri. That should drive out the worst elements.

    170

    • #

      Some made a lot of noise about how great Tim Wilson would be for the Liberal Party. What a complete and utter dud he’s turned out to be.

      200

      • #
        glen Michel

        It seems that the more ” effeminate ” members of the Liberal party are well represented. I can pick ‘em.

        21

      • #

        Sharma is involved with a Big Brotherish retailing system which will probably mesh beautifully with all kinds of information gathering world-wide. Seems that you need some corporate creepiness to get a start in Wentworth these days.

        Of course, Dave will be able to tip plenty of funds into retaining his seat. All his own money, of course. Just like Malcolm spent his own money. We heard that many times, right?

        When Julia reminded us that “Big business is on board!” with all the Green Blobbiness she wasn’t making stuff up. For once.

        20

  • #
    RobK

    Excellent satire by Rowan Dean.

    120

  • #
    Robber

    How dare the climate catastrophists continue to use fossil fuels.
    How dare those who claim a climate emergency continue to pollute our planet with their evil CO2 emissions.
    If they truly believe that it is a real emergency, then they should immediately take the following actions:
    – Stop using any fossil-fuel based transport.
    – Cut their electricity usage by 70%, as that is the % produced from evil coal.
    – Stop buying any products containing metal or plastics as they all generate CO2 in their production and distribution.
    – Buy a country property where they can build their own wooden house and live off what they can grow.
    Ah, peace and quiet at last – I feel better now.

    170

  • #
    Another Ian

    Around this area

    “Is as though people have stopped buying what they’re selling: My University Is Dying; Soon Yours Will Be, too”

    Link at

    http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/index.php/2019/10/13/whats-the-opposite-of-diversity-26/

    40

    • #
      PeterS

      I once thought of becoming a lecturer at a University. I’m glad I didn’t fall into that trap. Being a lecturer is now much like being a politician. Telling lies is the norm.

      110

      • #
        TdeF

        Donate to Dr. Peter Ridd, a man who was fired as Head of Physics at James Cook University for just suggesting that the science from the University was not rigorous and not reproducible. You can understand why good men in science do not speak out. Some like RMIT Vice Chancellor Ziggy Switkowski is on over a million dollars a year, so you can understand why a nuclear physicist says nothing, do not have an opinion on the debate and just pushes nuclear energy as the solution.

        And all the BOM meteorologists, half the world’s meteorologists. They say nothing when 97% of scientists are quoted as supporting man made Global Warming. It’s exactly what their jobs worth to say otherwise, or even hint.

        That’s how people get away with it. Threats, intimidation, keeping your head low. Now which of 350 PhD level CSIRO people working to prove on “Climate Change” for years have said anything at all? They didn’t find it.

        Our political masters control the information and good people get fired, as the judge said, illegally.

        80

        • #
          PeterS

          Even when I was working along scientists at CSIRO over two decades ago before the CAGW ball started rolling in earnest I felt threatened for my job for even thinking of speaking out against various issues that didn’t sound right. Science today has turned into a farce.

          90

          • #
            TdeF

            Any many of those speaking out today are simply retired and able to speak. White haired scientists. The rest just stay out of it, knowing it is all farcical. You have to be privately secure to say anything.

            Think of Professor Geoffrey Blainey, former head of History at Melbourne University and driven out of the university.
            Even revolutionary feminist Australian Germaine Greer is now banned at universities by the LBTIQWTF people as named by Mark Latham.
            Dr Ridd of course, for telling the truth.
            Andrew Bolt convicted for questioning the stolen children myth and professional university activists.
            and the master historian and former insider and Marxist, Keith Windschuttle for his Fabrication of Aboriginal History.
            and those they cannot fire, ban, harass are just ridiculed, derided, attacked. Doxed in the US, where the gangs are given workplace, phone numbers, email addresses so their lives are at risk and those of their families.

            It is the end game in the 1970s long march through the institutions and politicians, as with Brexit, are a big part of the problem. The RET (Renewable Electricity 2000) was a Howard era act and the politicians pretend they have no idea why electricity prices are so high and ultra cheap electricity coal power stations are being blown up as unprofitable.

            It is a war on Western Democracy and truth is the first victim. And the new black shirted violent Fascist gangs call themselves AntiFA, presuming no one under 30 knows any history and the wars and mass deaths under Socialism. And as always they chase the gullibles.

            My only hope is that they are now exposed as fr*uds, chasing their socialist revolution where their followers are more circus performers and camp than followers.

            101

    • #
  • #
    Serge Wright

    This is what happens when the lunatics start running the asylum. In this case the asylum is the sum of our collective educational institutions and the lunatics are the paid teachers and professors in charge of the system. Any sensible people such as Peter Ridd quickly end up being excommunicated from the new global warming educational church and receive the full wrath of the loonies in the court system.

    Ironically, whilst green politics pushes for a vegan lifestyle, they have now removed the necessary water for any sustainable agriculture in this country and the sad reality of watching the huge volumes of water diverted inland to the Murray River and then forced out into the southern ocean is perhaps the most disturbing act of vandalism ever inflicted upon this nation. An entire Snowy Mountains project built 60 years ago now has it’s sole purpose to maintain a different river delta with fresh water, that was previously salty in its natural state, prior to white settlement. When combined with the massive energy prices created by RE, farmers are now being forced from the land in droves and we are fast becoming a nation solely dependent on mining and will soon be importing most of our food from China and Asia.

    Not surprising, the loony left wish to shut down mining, leaving us with nothing and they claim this will save the planet. Obviously their vision is a planet without humans.

    The only question that remains unanswered is how on earth did such a large group of green zombie loonies ever get created from within a previously intelligent and prosperous society and then somehow get the keys to our learning and government institutions ?.

    120

    • #
      Bulldust

      I guess Snowy 2.0 is off the table then?

      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-14/snowy-hydro-2.0-expensive-and-wont-deliver-energy-expert/11594768

      But, but Turnbull promised it in a couple years… at less than half the current budgeted price….

      10

      • #
        Serge Wright

        Snowy 2 is not related to Snowy 1. It only recycles water up and downhill between Talbingo and Tantangara dams. I had a read of your ABC article link and the critisism is that this is an expensive option and we should use demand management rather than go ahead with the project.

        In essence, demand management means either turning off your power or making the power too expensive for use during peak periods. IMO – This entire concept is as crazy as glueing yourself to a roadway or worshipping a child climate messiah. If you don’t care about supporting the national energy needs then you might just as well turn off all the power and say job done. However, in this discussion related to Snowy 2, what we are comparing is one policy that will be a huge loss making exercise and further drive up your electricity bill with an alternate strategy that makes the electricity so expensive that you are forced to live in the dark at sunset so that essential services can be maintained. Either way the consumer loses.

        IMO – This discussion of Snowy 2 exactly demonstrates why RE is the biggest policy failure in the history of our nation. One reality is that RE needs storage, but the other reality is that the storage is completely unaffordable, so the only solution left is no power at all. Unfortunately, words fail me when trying to describe the sheer stupidity of the people responsible for this entire RE policy disater along with their confounding stupid road-glueing supporters that believe the world will end in a few years.

        10

        • #
          Bulldust

          Which is why I have always had the opinion as follows: my social contract with the electricity provider is that I will use what I want and pay the price they demand. It is not for them to say, no you can’t have my product right now, or you are rationed to XXX amount. I find it hard to envisage a free market in which a producer is actively dissuading their customers from using their product … utter madness.

          00

  • #
    Maptram

    One of yesterday’s links was to Tony Heller talking about how high temperatures from the late 1800s are not now included in recorded data. Removal of high temperature months and years means that averages are lower, so high temperatures as measured against the lower averages become records and evidence of climate change, climate emergency etc.

    70

  • #
    Michael262

    Jo, how dare you make such inflammatory unsubstantiated claims.
    You hide here instead of providing any real evidence, why are you too shy to submit anything for proper review ?.
    If you had a paper to submit in your area of expertise, being biology, surely you’d approach a reputable journal who would naturally review it.
    That’s what scientists do.

    333

    • #
      Robber

      Michael, welcome any evidence you have that there is a climate emergency. That’s what scientists rather than alarmists do.

      250

    • #
      David Wojick

      Michael, Jo is not doing academic research so your argument is foolish.

      250

      • #
        David Wojick

        Michael’s gambit is what I call the “journal shield fallacy,” basically that science is defined by the academic journals. It is a shield because the alarmists hide behind it. The reality is that science is a body of discourse, not a body of journals. In fact very little scientific debate happens in journals because the time delays are horrendous. Debate happens in real time, in every field.

        330

        • #
          Peter Fitzroy

          And the most twisted redefinition of a word goes to 11.2.1 Congratulations David, this is so tortured, it is not even wrong.

          Science is hypothesis testing, using a defined method. (it is more than that, but let us be concise) Journals are a standardised way of communication in science (or most research if the truth be known)

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          • #
            AndyG55

            WRONG. Journals are only one way of communicating science.

            You have shown, yet again, just how IGNORANT you are of what actually happens in real science.

            161

            • #
              Roy Hogue

              Andy, you should address his full statement because I might just agree with Peter Fitzroy on this one. Science is the use of he scientific method of investigation.

              Definition of scientific method from Merriam-Webster online
              : principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses

              That is what science is all about. Peter pretty much said that though not as succinctly as Merriam-Webster. The use of journals is also done. How else do you communicate your findings to the world? The fact that many journals have become less than reliable (being charitable about some of them) doesn’t change that basic fact that journals are used.

              40

              • #
                Roy Hogue

                The point is that someone can be a dishonest scientist but that doesn’t change what science is.

                We need to fight the dishonesty, not throw out the only means we have of being sure of our knowledge, the scientific method of investigation.

                30

              • #
                AndyG55

                Journals are NOT part of the scientific method.

                50

              • #
                David Wojick

                Science includes a great deal more than the scientific method. For example, it includes both creativity and communication. But my statement was merely a summary of the point about the journal shield fallacy, not a definition of science.

                10

              • #
                Roy Hogue

                David,

                I don’t disagree with anything you said but science still rests squarely on that foundation of a method of investigation that is completely objective. That so many get it wrong by twisting something to serve their purposes doesn’t change what it’s supposed to be all about.

                10

          • #
            John in Oz

            From Phil Jones To: Michael Mann (Pennsylvania State University). July 8, 2004
            “I can’t see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow — even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!”

            Your response to this, please.

            140

            • #
              John

              That was the line that lost me. Such shameless cherry picking. Such arrogance.

              50

            • #
              Peter Fitzroy

              this might put it into perspective
              The first paper, McKitrick and Michaels (2004), or “MM2004”, argued that most of the observed late 20th century warming was due to the urban heat island effect. Jones’ reaction to the paper, according to an email dated 8/7/2004, was:
              The other paper by MM is just garbage. […] I can’t see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow — even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!

              The MM2004 paper was indeed omitted from the first and second drafts of AR4 WG1 Chapter 3, but mentioned and refuted in the final text. McKitrick claims that Jones wrote that paragraph and that it gave contrived reasons for rejecting the paper’s conclusions.

              28

              • #
                AndyG55

                “was due to the urban heat island effect”

                So what was PROVABLY CORRECT was DELIBERATELY left out of the IPCC documentation. It has never been scientifically refuted, just on a contrived whim..

                Thanks for the confirmation, PF

                /PF does foot in mouth so well !!

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              • #
                John

                “but mentioned and refuted”

                Mentioned and ignored more like it.

                10

          • #
            glen Michel

            In your twisted and dystopian world view Peter. You seem rather short on nous and experience. Like a bluebottle floating on a fresh nor’east seabreeze.

            81

          • #
            David Wojick

            Fitz, that statement is merely a summary of the preceding paragraph, not a proposed definition of science. As such you have misconstrued it rather than responding to the point about the journal shield fallacy. It strikes me that you do this a lot, perhaps as a deflection?

            20

          • #
            David Wojick

            Communication is a misnomer in that it suggests one way flow. Science is a realm of back and forth debate. As for publishing results, preprints are coming on strong, and of course there are conferences, listservs, etc. journals are just one channel among many.

            20

            • #
              David Wojick

              And of course a lot of findings are now reported on blogs, including this one. Most of my research is reported on blogs, especially CFACT. I have no use for academic journals in this regard.

              20

            • #
              AndyG55

              Items posted on blogs like JoNova, WUWT, NoTricks, NotaLot.. etc

              … get FAR MORE views and FAR MORE peer-review than most journal articles.

              00

      • #
        Michael262

        David,
        I began the sentence with “if”

        14

    • #

      Michael, thank you once again for the invitation to penetrate the Publish-then-Perish industry. It’s been hours since your last suggestion to bang fruitlessly on those well-bolted doors.

      Don’t forget to remind us of more sand-pounding opportunities later today. As well as frittering economic, mineral and material resources on Big Green we can waste time and energy trying to stop the waste and plunder through the very same “reputable journals” boosting the waste and plunder. That’ll work!

      I’m just here to annoy GeeUp and stop the white elephants. (It’s a conservation thing with me.) The first seems to be working.

      190

    • #
      AndyG55

      poor mickey, even more EVIDENCE FREE than PF

      And that really is the abyss. !!

      61

    • #
      AndyG55

      little mickey, I know your attention span is only 2 or 3 second (less than a goldfish)

      but try watching this video.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfRBr7PEawY

      Maybe then you will stop sprouting your mindless empty nonsense.

      71

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      The climate is doing what it has always done mate.
      If you want anyone to believe it’s doing something different
      Produce your cast iron evidence.
      But you can’t
      So you indulge in Bull !

      60

    • #
      el gordo

      ‘ … to submit in your area of expertise …’

      This is her expertise, its a crowd funded university course, Climate Science.

      The tutorials are fun and don’t be afraid to tell us what you really think.

      30

    • #
      Serge Wright

      Michael,

      What you are suggesting is exactly what scientists have not been doing. After 30 years of research into AGW all we have is a dodgy consensus of an untested model and real world evidence that suggests a much lower climate sensitivity than what’s being postulated. You’ll notice that the voices of scientists are almost completely absent in the alarmist media debate that is now focused on extinction propaganda and creating a fake climate emergency in spite of rising population and food production and a fall in the number of peopel living in poverty and climate related deaths, both now at all time lows. Despite the good news we only hear nonsense claims to the contrary and due to the lack of supporting evidence the loony left choose to use an autistic 16 yo girl as their new climate guru because they can then resort to their usual discrimination cry and name-calling to whoever disagrees.

      If this behaviour is what you regard as robust science then you might as well glue yourself to the nearest busy freeway along with your loony mates and leave the blog discussion to the adults.

      70

  • #
    Peter C

    How Dare You Steel My Dreams for a Sensible Democracy

    This is a very passionate call to arms.

    I will be sending a personal email to each of the seven Liberal Wussy MPs named above, using that message. Tim Wilson has proved to be particularly disappointing, given his background with the IPA

    130

    • #
      Annie

      It seems they think they know which side their bread is buttered :(

      We saw Rowan Dean last night in the Outsiders encore…brilliant!

      110

    • #
      Dennis

      The Turnbull and Black Hand Faction influence based on globalism and socialism is significant, they convinced a bunch of new MPs who won their seats during the Opposition Leader Abbott led Coalition landslide defeat of Labor in September 2013 that Abbott must be replaced by Turnbull as leader, and in September 2015 that took place.

      At the 2016 election the substantial majority won with Tony Abbott leading the Coalition was lost and the government managed to cling to office by one seat.

      40

  • #
    Travis.T. Jones

    The climate zombies have arrived and have unveiled themselves.

    They are easily identified by their continuous moaning about the apocalypse.

    The most effective weapon is laughter, mocking, sarcasm … take no prisoners!

    60

  • #
    pat

    hear this on the radio this morning. it said Labor and the Greens supported the idea:

    Updated 14 Oct: ABC: Congestion charge the cheapest, most effective way to reduce traffic jams in Australia, report finds
    By Rachel Clayton
    A new report by the Grattan Institute is calling for all major cities in Australia to impose a congestion charge on drivers during peak hours to ease heavy traffic in the CBD…
    Lead author and the institute’s transport program director, Marion Terrill, said new technology meant the charge was the easiest, cheapest and most effective way to reduce congestion in cities…
    The Melbourne City Council, the Productivity Commission, Infrastructure NSW, and Infrastructure Victoria have all supported the idea…
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-13/should-australia-have-a-congestion-charge/11597022

    nothing new:

    27 Nov 2017: Grattan Institute: Delay in changing direction on how we tax drivers will cost us all
    by Marion Terrill and Hugh Batrouney; Published at The Conversation
    The federal government announced a year ago that it would review the charges imposed on drivers for using our roads. That review hasn’t yet happened. They should get on with it, because reforming the way we charge road users will make our economy more productive and our cities more liveable…
    As we describe in our report Stuck in traffic? Road congestion in Sydney and Melbourne, such a mechanism would mean charging people who drive at peak times on congested roads a small fee…
    https://grattan.edu.au/news/delay-in-changing-direction-on-how-we-tax-drivers-will-cost-us-all/

    51

    • #
      pat

      posted with an ***excerpt I omitted yesterday:

      10 Oct: HeraldScotland: Scots face paying out hundreds to park at work
      By Alistair Grant
      Green MSP John Finnie said: “The new powers over workplace parking levies will allow local government in our biggest cities to tackle congestion, air pollution and the climate emergency…

      ***Scottish Labour MSP Neil Bibby, who tabled an amendment to scrap the tax, said it was “nothing more than a political fix to pass a budget”…
      https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17958176.scots-face-paying-hundreds-park-work/

      50

  • #
    Dennis

    Trent Zimmerman MP was the Turnbull Black Hand Faction replacement for Joe Hockey MP in North Sydney, and the others are LINO too: Liberal In Name Only.

    80

  • #
    • #
      glen Michel

      Evidence free. There was ano5her mangrove dieback near Karumba some years back which affected 10 kms of the Gulf. Any suggestion it has anything to do with sea rise or increase in salinity is BS. Well documented similar events in the past.

      41

      • #

        So Mangroves dying back in the past due to some reason precludes a different reason for dying back forever more? Evidence?

        14

        • #
          el gordo

          Most of the article is verbiage, McInness has lost the plot, but here we see the salient points.

          ‘Scientists from Queensland and Northern Territory universities said one contributing factor was a temporary drop in sea levels, caused by a change in the trade winds, which left the forests unusually high and dry.

          ‘But they said another factor in the dieback along 1,000 kilometres of coastline was climate change and a sharp increase in the sea temperature.’

          51

          • #

            doesn’t address my question to glen M

            15

            • #
              el gordo

              Are we looking at paleo climate history?

              Mangroves are impacted by a drop in sea level, more than warm water, and I suspect its a natural function like coral bleaching.

              My impression is that it happened during the last strong El Nino and went unnoticed. Its not a global warming signal.

              20

        • #
          AndyG55

          Yes GA, we are waiting for your evidence.

          40

          • #

            LOL ! AG puts his foot right in his mouth.

            Which is exactly your aim. !

            Distraction and blog clogging.

            You really are a flounderer, aren’t you AG.

            If you want to try to put forward an argument, at least try to make sure you know SOMETHING about what you are talking about !!

            05

    • #
      Dave

      And not one mention of the BIG FLOOD?

      Flinders River was 70KM wide and 1,000km long dumping tonnes of animals, soil, rubbish & plants into the gulf.

      Photos from space show the extent of this FLOOD!

      I find it extraordinary not one PAPER has been written on this and the effect it had on the gulf as an ecosystem never mind the mangroves!

      500,000 dead cattle plus millions more in wildlife numbers would have been over 1/4 million tonnes of rotting carcases!

      Seems the science is only interested in Climate Change and the melted Arctic Ice Cap (which is actually growing)

      50

      • #
        Greg in NZ

        Carbon Climate Change now so powerfully lawless it pushes water uphill?

        “This is a mega river making its way up to the gulf”.

        Surely this has never happened in human history, especially during the Wet Season.

        Where do I get my funding grant from – this deserves more research – before it’s too late!

        10

  • #
    Dennis

    How about challenging the fools to a debate on real climate change, and their belief in man made global warming caused by carbon dioxide.

    Would they accept the challenge?

    I doubt it very much.

    80

  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    Is that the conservative response?
    Is denigration, and hysteria all you have?
    It’s a poor politics which stoops to those levels.

    but then, we live in a representative democracy – but this sort of childishness does not represent me, and it does harm to any claims of responsible government that might be remaining.

    For example, BHP, BP have joined a long list of companies who despite the damage they have done, are now asking for a policy shift, one that recognizes the damage neo-conservative policy has done to the environment

    226

    • #

      Is denigration, and hysteria all you have?

      Fitzroy, seriously, you need to look in the mirror when you say this.

      270

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        You mean, that because I’ve labeled a moron, fool, idiot, dumba**, uneducated, stupid, gutl***, stupid, fake and mindless – to list a few, I’m not allowed to take the same approach.

        Aton, seriously, you need to look in the mirror yourself. But then…

        218

        • #
          Bill in Oz

          You are an ignorant fool Fitzroy.
          And not welcome here.

          100

          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            Good to see you have lost none of your acumen in virtue signalling.

            115

            • #

              Peter,

              really, you do yourself no favours at all.

              You talk down to all of us from a self thought of position of authority, sneering at everything we say, everything.

              You give none of us any credit for knowledge in our own respective fields, especially Lance, probably one of the most knowledgeable people who contributes here, and you just laugh at him, thinking that you know better, because you have access to Google.

              You call us liars and cheats, and then, when called out for it, (three comments lower) you are silent.

              You have proved you have no knowledge in the fields we do have that knowledge in, thinking that by using Google, that makes YOU the expert in subjects where you have no knowledge. You use that same Google to raise unrelated points that you have just changed the subject to, and then also disappear after doing it.

              You perpetuate lies about us and persist with them.

              When asked to supply proof, you absent yourself.

              You don’t want to believe anything we say, and even when you do concede a point, you then later revert back to your original position. You do it to all of us, every single one. There is no one you do not set out to specifically antagonise. Some of us here actually do have knowledge in the things we write about here, but you will not see that, and will not give us any credit for.

              You get a free run here, something that none of us get at any other site, and you use that free run to just denigrate every one of us. We know you will never concede on one point at all, (although I am thankful that you have conceded that renewables will never replace coal fired power) but you need to have some respect for the knowledge and the background we have.

              The list is endless.

              And then YOU wonder why we snap back at you.

              Tony.

              190

            • #
              Bill in Oz

              Fitz you agree with BOM that the world is warming
              But have no reply at all when Ken Stewart investigates BOM weather stations
              And finds out that they are shonky
              So far 140 & counting !
              Ken just finished Qld today !
              As BOM’s weather data comes from shonky stations
              ( NON compliant with BOM’s own standards )
              It has NO evidence to support it’s claims
              And your global warming claims are way sh#t creek without a paddle !

              40

              • #
                Peter Fitzroy

                If by shonky you mean poorly sited, then yes I do agree with that. However, no matter where the placement, no matter where in the habitable world, all the measurements are showing a rise (using the normal averaging methodology for climate)

                Do you understand that at least?

                /Guidelines only remember

                04

              • #
                AndyG55

                “all the measurements are showing a rise “

                That is an OUTRIGHT LIE. !!

                Sites unaffected by urban heat or the El Ninos DO NOT SHOW WARMING

                The atmosphere over Australia shows no warming for 20 years, and if you discount a minor step at the 1998 El Nino, No warming for nearly 40 years

                Japan shows no warming for 40 or so years

                USA is cooler now than the 1940′s, as are many other places in the NH.

                Australia is cooler now than in the early 1900′s.

                /PF makes up his own NON-facts, ie LIES.

                10

          • #
            el gordo

            Fitz is good value as a counter point and you should take the opportunity to use your wit and wisdom.

            Robustness is perfectly fine, but ad homs should only be used sparingly for amusing impact.

            90

            • #
              glen Michel

              I agree. A little stir is good. Peter, this blog consists of people who have changed their position on CC due to their own applications. For many of us this issue is based on falsehoods. There is no motive other than a seeking for truth.

              61

        • #
          AndyG55

          Poor PF, if the cap fits, you should wear it

          And stop PROVING it to be correct.

          You are still searching for your inner virtue, but will never find any.

          51

        • #
          AndyG55

          “a moron, fool, idiot, dumba**, uneducated, stupid, gutl***, stupid, fake and mindless”

          Which one is false???

          You keep proving them to be true.

          81

    • #
      Geoff Sherrington

      PF,
      It takes a lot of money to “conserve” natural areas.
      A lot of past money comes from the mining industry. Plus a lot of the effort, a lot of the ideas.
      Why, specifically, do you dislike mining and its very positive contribution? Geoff S

      110

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        Geoff – “It takes a lot of money to “conserve” natural areas” . From what? A natural area is just that, it requires nothing to maintain, as this is how it remained ‘natural’ . If you mean it needs protection from man made threats like feral horses, pigs, goats, foxes, cats, dogs, rabbits, and introduced birds, not to mention toxic weeds, like soda apple, or lantana, or the depredations of man, then you are right – natural areas will need a lot of money – but get this – they need protecting from us, we caused everything listed above.

        212

        • #
          el gordo

          ‘ … they need protecting from us …’

          National Parks need to be restricted and a green army given the job of cleaning up the mess we have created. It will be labour intensive and expensive, perfect for soaking up youth unemployment.

          Dams are going ahead in NSW, before the big floods expected in 2021.

          70

          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            For the animals, I would recommend, hunting, baiting and fencing. For the weeds, lots of roundup (and it’s cousins). For man – heavy fines and effective enforcement.
            You will note, that I really don’t give a fig about any suffering to which a feral animal might be exposed, nor do I care much about the use of glyphosate (and related compounds), we are not going to be eating those plants.

            /pragmatism rules

            49

            • #
              el gordo

              The green army would have shooters to eradicate feral animals and they will use tethered goats to get rid of the lantana etc.

              We’ll restock all the rivers with native fish when the rains return.

              70

              • #
                Peter Fitzroy

                it’s a good plan el gordo, although I would include drones, as part of the hunting, and as part of the delivery of baits, and posion. From experience, Lantana is really only a problem in disturbed sites and edges (like roadsides), cut, or scrape and spray works very well, is targeted, and allows protection for new seedlings (which could also be delivered by drone). Also the drones could be used for audits after treatment to see what has survived.

                57

              • #
                el gordo

                Drones are a great advance, very versatile labour saving devices.

                40

              • #
                AndyG55

                “I would include drones

                Greens voters with guns ? scary !

                40

            • #
              beowulf

              I’m with you and Gordo, PF.

              You’ll get lantana popping up everywhere though, not only disturbed sites — spread by birds. The hills of my childhood were covered in it throughout the open forest and the rainforest margins. Unless the rainforest canopy is damaged, the lantana won’t get much of a hold in there due to lack of light. We used to spray it (2,4,5-T in those days, nasty stuff — with dioxin) and pull it every winter. Lantana and rabbits are symbiotic in coastal areas; where there is one, there is the other. Get rid of the lantana and it makes life harder for the rabbits too.

              Not keen on using goats on lantana. Goats on blackberries is fine but lantana causes extreme liver damage. Some colours of lantana are more toxic than others, but if you want your goats to live longer than a week, don’t put them on lantana. Cattle have died within 2 days of eating lantana due to complete liver collapse. It is fatal to white goats or goats with patches of white for instance. Even sub-acute liver damage causes photosensitisation of the unpigmented skin areas, causing them to slough large areas of skin and hair etc. I’m not aware of any browsing animal that can safely handle lantana in any quantity. Manual control via spraying or physical removal is the only real option.

              “1080” (sodium fluoroacetate) baits are relatively safe for native carnivores like quolls because as you would be aware Australian native plants contain 1080 naturally, particularly those from SW WA, so our animals have a high tolerance to 1080. Dingos might succumb to a dead 1080ed rabbit, but larger scavengers like Wedgetails and Whistling Kites are generally safe.

              Feral pigs also do enormous damage. During the 70s we had a huge feral pig problem in our district. Hunters were deliberately setting domestic pigs free to go feral, and wild pigs travel great distances overnight. Our pig traps were set about once per fortnight and would typically catch about 30-40 pigs at a time, including maybe 50% piglets and suckers. Our stockmen used to go pig-sticking from horseback until one of the horses got its guts ripped wide open by a boar. Constant trapping eventually solved the problem, but there is always a low level residual, mobile population that can explode again if conditions are right.

              National parks need a good clean out — and that includes fire where appropriate. In this context, lantana burns very hot and will make fires more intense. It needs to be cleared before any regular burning regime is implemented. Any burning regime should be of the traditional native type of spot-ignition radiating out, not ignition along an entire front like we are accustomed to doing.

              90

              • #
                Peter Fitzroy

                Yep, it is a huge problem, Beowulf and will need a injection of resources. However, the benefits to farm production by removing weeds, pests, and deprivations do a lot to make up for the costs. And it is something which will take 100′s of years. But more needs to be done.

                /Sent from the home of the Lantana – where it was first introduced by Margaret Innes, on Major Innes’ property near Port Macquarie

                45

              • #
                Kalm Keith

                Thanks.
                An interesting piece.

                30

    • #
      robert rosicka

      Neo conservatives are the problem hey Fitz ?
      While I don’t give much weight to Wiki sometimes they can be useful .

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

      Do you hate neo conservatives because they dislike communism or is there another reason ?

      30

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        If you consider the neoconservative policies of trashing the environment, holding down wages, removing protections, and tax cuts for the rich not reason enough?

        I also dislike communism (aka Stalinism), but it is a third order problem, given that our parliament has two centrist parties, one in opposition and one in power, and every once in a while the swap benches, but nothing else ever changes.

        19

        • #
          robert rosicka

          Slight over exaggeration there Fitz , much like the climate emergency.

          70

        • #
          bobl

          You are sooooo deluded on so many fronts,

          1. You refuse to acknowledge real science on climate or even that there is any diversity of opinion among scientists,

          2. you seem to refuse engineering experts when they show renewables so not save CO2

          3. You think that socialism can actually deliver prosperity. Capitalism is the only system that has sustainably done that, China is a managed capitalist system now. It is not communist although at the bottom layer of society communism is used the keep the little people in line. Without the doers at the top nothing is left for the rest. For example more progress was probably made on Pancreatic cancer trying to save Steve Jobs than in the 20 years before that, these advances flow to the rest of us. If there is noone big enough to spend half a bill trying to save grandma from a rare disease then these things don’t happen. While Elon Musk is a bit of a dolt, there is no doubt that his money will help us get to mars. Socialism doesn’t leave anyone rich enough to get to mars, or cure pancreatic cancer. Socialism leaves everyone in equal squalor.

          4 Conservatism has managed to preserve the environment, it’s not a zero sum game Peter, it is relatively easy to have wealth and environmental health, indeed history has shown that wealth (Capitalism) is a precursor for environmental stewardship. Real capitalists don’t raid environments because you can’t sustain profitability that way, indeed it tends to be the poor that rape the land because the need to just survive outweighs the benefits of preserving environments. https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/details.cgi?aid=2640 Biomass dependent Poor Haiti on the left, Evil fossil fuel burning Dominican republic on the right.

          5. Removing “protections” is also about removing impositions that prevent wealth being delivered to the poor. There is a balance, protections do noone any good if all the jobs that need “Protecting” are gone. Tax cuts to the poor benefit only the poor but tax cuts to the rich benefit everyone, indeed since the Trump corporate tax cut in the USA US tax revenue is above what it was before the tax cut and unemployment has reached 50 year lows. Your wonderfully cotton wool protective socialism and high tax/cost economy only serves to make sure that 5-6 percent (10% if you account for participation rate) of the Australia population are forced to live on welfare. So 1 million people are in poverty because you wont free up the labour market enough to give them a job – because of “Protecting” – who are you protecting, certainly not those jobless?

          It’s interesting to note that clearly you have drunk the kool-aid on AGW but stereotypically are a socialist too, those things do seem to live in harmony.

          70

          • #
            Eugene S Conlin

            You refuse to acknowledge real science on climate or even that there is any diversity of opinion among scientists,

            Diversity is only good when it causes dissension (e.g the alphabet genders/various (imagined) anthropogenic catastrophes etc.

            /sarc

            20

        • #
          AndyG55

          “trashing the environment”

          You mean green policies,, right

          TRASHING the environment wherever they are installed

          Huge lumps of concrete left in the ground

          Toxic decay from solar panels

          The absolutely horrendous POLLUTION in their manufacture.

          The deliberate attempt to starve plant-life.

          Is that what you are referring to, PF??

          /PF hates the environment !!!

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          AndyG55

          “our parliament has two centrist parties”

          LOL! Labor centrist …. you really are DELUSIONAL , PF

          Even the Liberals have too many leftist thoughts to be considered truly centrist.

          I guess when you look from the FAR LOONIE LEFT, everything is to right.. right PF !!

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      AndyG55

      Poor PF, spends his life attempting to denigrate others.

      That is his only purpose here.

      But he can’t hack it when he gets a bit back.

      So pathetically funny !!

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      Peter Fitzroy
      October 14, 2019 at 8:38 am

      Is that the conservative response?
      Is denigration, and hysteria all you have?
      It’s a poor politics which stoops to those levels.

      This is new for you Peter! And I’m delighted to hear that finally you are going to start calling out the non-stop denigration and hysteria that is embedded with taxpayer money at the highest levels. I can’t wait to see your letters to professors and editors which allow the petty namecalling “denier” even in science journals. As for hysteria — with 28 million radiosondes showing the models are wrong, and with 1000 tide guages showing that seas are only rising 1mm a year, I look forward to you finally starting to cite evidence and protesting at the rank, abject delusional apoplexy that the climate scare machine uses daily.

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        Peter Fitzroy

        Certainly Jo, I’m all against name calling, and denier is so much worse than moron, or f**kwit, as you would agree, but those epithets are normalised on this site. As to the missing hot spot, and the slow rise in the oceans, I agree, the models have a long way to go. As to the climate scare machine, that is their entitlement, and is good for nothing but a headline or two. Finally – evidence, well yes both sides are pushing evidence, and both are selecting that evidence on the basis of their conceptual bias (not the mythical real scientists, I agree). In the end, I can not say absolutely who is more right on this, or any issue, and in the end, time will tell. Until then though

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          bobl

          The problem here though is that you seem to be refusing to adopt new information as it comes to light, for example that EVs powered by 80% coal power and with a delivered thermal efficiency of around 15% results in more emission than an ICE with 45% thermal efficiency (even greater when you are using the heater).

          I have given you real math to do that shows unequivocally that global warming can’t possibly amount to more than 0.5C per doubling lots of information about the ineffectiveness of your favoured Solar and Wind non-solutions (and I’m an Electrical Engineer) yet you don’t even bother to check it out. You want to preserve your argument at the cost of your own ignorance. Maybe you just like arguing.

          I used to be like you, I believed in the story, but one day Kevin Rudd decided to stick his hand in my back pocket to raid my wallet for a carbon tax, I thought I’d better do the math, and guess what? oops AGW doesn’t stack up mathematically, it also has gross violations of the law of conservation of energy.

          Here’s another oddity for you.

          The CO2 energy band is 85% opaque, only 15% of energy reaches space, 85% must be retained heating the atmosphere, (Arrrgh Global Warming is right, we are all going to die), But the global warmists say doubling CO2 will cause a doubling of the heat retained with feedbacks causing 3-6 degrees of warming. But ooops, doubling the retained energy requires the energy retained to go from current 85% to 170% – that is the increase in retained energy has to go to MORE THAN 100% of the IR energy emitted into the absorbtion band of CO2, impossible – violates the law of conservation of energy. Instead what actually happens is 50% of the remaining 15% will be consumed. Energy retained doesn’t go to 170%, it goes to 92.5% an increase of just 7.5% and global warning will be around 1/13 of that predicted by the models that ignore the energy constraint, or around 0.25 deg C – 0.5 deg C.

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            Peter Fitzroy

            bobl – I don’t doubt your maths on EV’s, the most energy dense fuel is oil. Where we diverge is on the maths for global warming and the effect of CO2 in particular. As I’m often accused, accused in relation to capacity factors, doubling 85% is clearly wrong. And ignoring saturation for the moment, 7.5% is more on the mark. But I would also suggest that CO2 is only one of the GHC’s and gaseous H20 which will contribute its share.

            But that is all beside the point, really. I’m against the uncosted dumping of the by-products of electrical generation, at no cost, into the environment. By by product, I mean everything that goes up the stack, everything that is held in tailings dams, and all that heat, which is also dumped mostly into the air by both the cooling towers, and directly out of the stacks.

            do you see my point?

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              AndyG55

              “But I would also suggest that CO2 is only one of the GHC’s and gaseous H20 which will contribute its share.”

              Suggest what you like, It is MEANINGLESS without evidence.

              Ash is extremely useful and is used in products which are all around you.

              Only thing released from cooling towers is water vapour

              From chimneys, nearly all is LIFE-GIVING CO2

              / But PF hates life.

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            Graeme#4

            Bobl, would be interested in reading more about why the CO2 wavelengths are considered opaque. Do you have a reference for some reading material on this topic?

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              Graeme No.3

              The CO2 molecule absorbs IR at certain wavelengths. It gets rid of that extra energy mostly by kinetic collision with other molecules in the air, so it cannot radiate at the same frequency, except on rare occasions. Thus an instrument scanning the IR will see very little radiation at those wavelengths, and it will be decided that CO2 absorbed those wavelengths.
              In practice the number of collisions at normal temperature and pressure is about 1,000 times before the usual radiation time. The net effect is for ALL molecules to get some of the radiated energy, hence the atmosphere is warmed.
              A further note is that most of the absorption bands of CO2 are also absorbed by water vapour, which is usually over 100 times more abundant. Google IR spectra of CO2 and water vapour for confirmation.
              When you also factor in that 70% of the Earth’s surface is water which is a very poor radiator of IR you will quickly realise that the role of “heat trapping” by CO2 is very minor.

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                Graeme#4

                Thanks Graeme 3 and bobl for responding. I realise that WV plays a major part in the atmosphere – after all it’s 20X more radiation absorbent than CO2 and there is around 50X times the quality.
                But I’m still confused when I see the term “opaque”. Sorry, but I’ve read both of your explanations, and I’ve read up a lot on CO2 and what is does and doesn’t do, but the use of the term is still to me confusing.

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                bobl

                Let me give context for my use of the word Opaque, at the wavelength of interest energy goes in, less energy comes out (to space). So think of it like dark window film, if you look through the film, the scene is dim because 85% of the photons are absorbed by the film and the window film is described as partially opaque. Keep going to darker tints, eventually the film is fully opaque and you cant see through it. The atmosphere like the window film is partially opaque at that wavelength, CO2 is the tint.

                In reality its probably a bit more like putting a dark translucent frosted glass shower screen in the way. I doubt you’d be able to see images through it but the 15% of light would still come through. Unfortunately I’m not NASA and cant put an IR camera in space to find out :-)

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              bobl

              Graeme No.3 is pretty close, other than that i’ll remark that the CO2 can ONLY receive emissions matching its vibrational frequencies so if there is no energy available at the right frequency it absorbs nothing.

              We know that the CO2 absorption bands are 85% opaque because satellite spectrograms tell us so. You can Google them.

              It is an error to assume that CO2 can keep dumping more and more heat if there is no incident light at the right wavelength – the models assume the energy supply within the CO2 absorption band is infinite but its not.

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              • #
                AndyG55

                Starts out with “their is no doubt… blah blah..

                Then totally ignores the MAIN energy transfer mechanisms in the atmosphere.

                Book needs a new edition which is not based on erroneous AGW mantra.

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                Graeme#4

                Peter, I looked at your link and I have seen this explanation before. However, it’s not really CO2 superimposed on the WV radiation spectrum – if it was, then it would be obvious that the wide WV spectrum completely dominates that part of the EM spectrum. And what’s not mentioned in this article is that WV is 20X more absorbent and 50X more abundant than CO2 – that important relationship was conveniently omitted. There is a lot more about CO2 molecules and their behaviour that the very short article didn’t cover, and I believe needs to be fully understood.

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                Graeme#4

                Peter, another thought about the inability of CO2 to re-radiate or transfer its energy to other gas molecules:
                Just re-reading an exchange with a knowledgeable gent and Dr William Happer, an acknowledged authority on CO2. The discussion centres on the fact that the mean time between molecular collisions is 1 nanosecond, but an excited CO2 molecule takes around one second to decay and emit an IR photon. i.e. The time for a CO2 molecule to emit the photon is one billion times longer than a (kinetic?) collision with another molecule.
                What this means is that a CO2 molecule is one billion times more likely to transfer energy via collision than via IR emission.
                And so the widely-repeated belief that a GHG molecule absorbs IR photons and re-emits them is only correct for one photon in a billion.

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                Peter Fitzroy

                G4 read the whole book – that was just a page

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                AndyG55

                The book is seriously flawed.

                The explanation you pointed to is seriously flowed.

                its a PF style explanation.

                Knowledge has moved on from this rudimentary erroneous AGW pap.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfRBr7PEawY

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                Kalm Keith

                G4

                Good stuff there.

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          theRealUniverse

          ‘In the end, I can not say absolutely who is more right on this, ‘ do I detect a back track..?

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            Peter Fitzroy

            Well a bit – I do accept that the information presented here would lead to the formation of a view that is contrary to the mainstream. In fact, this makes this site a mine of information which is not published in the aforesaid mainstream. Have I changed my opinion, yes, I would like to see a solution which satisfies all the evidence. The mainstream view, incorrectly dismisses much of what should be incorporated, and that is not very sciency

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              AndyG55

              “which satisfies all the evidence. “

              The evidence that you CANNOT produce ???

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              robert rosicka

              If Peter Fitz is starting to doubt the leftist spin and ideology from what he has learned from this site it’s a good thing and should be encouraged.
              After all many of us were sucked in by the hype , but I’m not sure this leopard is ready to give up his spots yet .

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              bobl

              Don’t know if you are still on this thread.

              The main point to be made is that “Climate Action” as it is currently practised is economically irresponsible and on the whole the favoured activist solutions Solar, Wind and EV’s don’t reduce CO2 emission either at all or enough to make them worthwhile. Even rooftop Solar which does have a small CO2 return on investment only returns about 20% of the CO2 used to make them.

              As Tony Abbott proved there are compromises that reduce CO2 but are still profitable that could be implemented at no public burden. CO2 isn’t a pollutant but it is a useful waste stream from certain processes, many waste streams are profitable, for example ash is used for concrete. Converting field crops to Tree crops (like Mangos) are an example. Expansion of the irrigation areas and for example implementation of the Bradfield scheme (Proposed by One Nation) keeps photosynthesis on the move more of the time, absorbing much more CO2. Taking power station exhaust CO2, dissolving it in water and pumping it around co-located greenhouses or high utilisation open field crops like corn (Corn is capable of drawing down CO2 to starvation levels by 11 AM in the morning) – these crops could sink 80% of that CO2 (crop dependent) and the farmers would profit. You could even plant these high utilisation crops (Corn, Sugar Cane, Maise) along the highways to sink the vehicle exhaust at the point of emission and you might get 30% of that emission sunk into the crop. If the crop is profitable farmed that way then its win/win for everyone. Part of the reason roadside flora and grass is always so dense is Co2 availability,

              Indeed conversion of Coal Plants to the latest HELE technology saves more CO2 than converting the same amount of generation to rooftop Solar. Combine HELE coal with utilisation of the CO2 in CO2 enhanced cropping and you do even better.

              None of this fits the war on coal mantra of the greenies though so no activist is going to go for these solutions (which actually work) because they make profits, and there is nothing that avowed greenie socialists hate more than someone making profits….

              All of these solutions have a point, they consider CO2 to be a useful waste stream for some profitable purpose instead of trying to avoid producing it. When it comes to CO2 I suggest you turn your thoughts to ways we could use the compound profitably rather than focus on ways to avoid production (which invariably involves CO2 production in building infrastructure to avoid production).

              It’s a mindset change you need, when you look at CO2 as a resource it becomes irrelevant whether CO2 causes warming or not.

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          AndyG55

          “well yes both sides are pushing evidence”

          You aren’t.

          You are pushing propaganda pap. !!

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      theRealUniverse

      ‘Is denigration, and hysteria all you have?’ PF thats what most of the climate alarmists have, exactly that. and SHOWN to have. Skeptics are shouted down, BANNED from posting and banned from scientific institutions. Who are you accusing on here?
      We present what is known real data.

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      george1st:)

      P.F.
      IMOO
      you can’t handle the truth.

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      AndyG55

      “but this sort of childishness does not represent me”

      But that sort of childishness is EXACTLY why you are here, PF

      You are just a small child, desperately seeking attention.

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      AndyG55

      “the damage neo-conservative policy has done to the environment”

      Look at any “socialist/marxist” country… Environmental Disaster.

      Only an affluent society can afford to properly look after the environment.

      Look at the HUGE inroad capitalist countries have made into CLEANING up their environments

      Go and live in Venezuela, PF, and see if you can stand the “environment” there.

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    pat

    how dare Govt put a single dollar into community radio stations when they are churning out unbelievable rubbish such as the following daily:

    AUDIO: 4min10sec: 11 Oct: TheWire: Mental Health Issues linked to Climate Change
    Produced By Steven Riggall
    Those living in remote and rural areas are more likely to suffer from these mental health issues as they are exposed to both direct and indirect risk factors associated with such issues.
    This increased likelihood is evident when looking at Australian farmers, who are not only suffering from the direct trauma associated with an unseasonable drought but also from the loss of homes and loss of income that this extreme weather event causes.
    Featured: Dr Fiona Charlson, Post-Doctoral Research Fellow at the University of Queensland
    http://thewire.org.au/story/mental-health-issues-linked-to-climate-change/

    AUDIO: 4min55sec: 11 Oct: TheWire: Are climate coalitions the way forward for coal communities?
    Produced By Steven Riggall
    ***Fabio Mattioli – Lecturer in Anthropology, School of Social and Political Sciences, Monash University
    Kari Dahlgren – PhD Candidate, London School of Economics and Political Science
    With many coal communities fearing the threat of mine closures from future climate action, some experts now argue for building coalitions between city-based environmentalists and coal communities to achieve progress on the issue.
    They say the Labor Party (AND URBAN GREENS) should commit itself to facilitating these coalitions if it wants to regain voters coal mining towns and implement meaningful climate change policy in the future.
    http://thewire.org.au/story/are-climate-coalitions-the-way-forward-for-coal-communities/

    TWEET: ***Fabio Mattioli
    Kari and I sharing some more thoughts on building coaltions between working class communities and urban greens! LINK The Wire…
    11 Oct 2019

    on 19 May, Fabio re-tweeted:
    TWEET: Yanis Varoufakis (former Greek Minister of Finance, Influences Marx, Keynes – Wikipedia)
    My daughter’s reaction to the news of the Australian election: Goodbye ABC, goodbye Great Barrier Reef, goodbye public services, goodbye renewable energy, goodbye public health, goodbye public education and goodbye stunning river systems.
    https://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/1130010083335839746

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    Chad

    Why does anyone grant any credibility to “The Grattan Institute”. ?
    They are just another (not really) “independent “ group with little experience outside of academia and politics .

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  • #

    The real villian in the piece here is the Bureau of Meteorology. They continue to put out graphs of temperature which have no relationship to the actual temperature record. This is not science at all, its incompetence and failure at the highest level.

    Tony Heller shows in his latest video (see around 3 mins) that the BOMs graph is completely disconnected with reality.

    https://realclimatescience.com/2019/10/new-video-a-crime-against-the-community/

    Kenskingdom now shows that almost 20% of BOM stations surveyed so far are non compliant. Is the BOM really committed to data accuracy and integrity? What is the highly paid head of the BOM actually doing?

    https://kenskingdom.wordpress.com/

    More time spent on the actual science and accuracy, instead of producing the Extinction Rebellions handout material is urgently needed.

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      TdeF

      A lot of organizations are rotten at the top, not the bottom. That includes NASA, BOM, CSIRO, IPCC. At the top you have politicians, even politician scientists, people who in my opinion stop being scientists and chase fame and fortune and there is no doubt, that follows Climate Change and pleasing politicians who control public funds. In JCU, the Vice Chancellor earns over $1Million a year to keep the money flowing and has limitless funds and authority to destroy people like Professor Ridd. The ABC too is accountable in name only.

      The weapons of WWII were built by scientists and engineers, even competing to improve on machines of de*th and gas chambers and looking for financial rewards, like missile scientist and Nazi Werner Von Braun. And those who fought for the contract to design gas chambers. The popular fiction of the aloof, well meaning altruistic and dedicated scientist working only on good causes is a myth. Why scientists should be immune to fame and fortune is absurd. Then you get failed scientists like Flannery and Mann, the latter having failed to get a PhD in physics and found fame with one tree. And former Vice President and ultimate opportunist Al Gore, who has no idea how science works. His family was rich on Tobacco money and he was a football captain. They could afford Harvard. His thesis was on the contribution of Television to Richard Nixon’s election.

      The same in societies the Royal Society who published Prof Suess’ article in 1956 that there was only 2.1% fossil fuel CO2 in the air after two world wars, trucks, tanks, ships, explosivese and the demolition of much of Europe and gave the (half) life of CO2 in the air as only 5 years. Now it’s as if the sure and certain knowledge of 1956 no longer exists. Even his Suess effect has been corrupted on Wikipedia to hide the truth and conflate dodgy C13 theories with absolute C14 measurement.

      The villains are the organizations, the politicians and the university administrators as in JCU. And it’s all about the money, a massive amount of money just like every other profession. Who doesn’t want a part of $1,500,000,000,000 spent annually on preventing something which is not true?

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    nb

    Jason Falinski will write the book of tactics designed to destroy democracy and bring in the solar revolution.
    Katie Allen will still call Australia home after she has wrecked it and is living in the Bahamas.
    Mr Zimmerman will demand more and more windmills to blow in the wind, to kill birds and stuff.
    When this is done A Bell will be rung by the brothers and the sisters all over this land.
    Tim W just want to be another Tim. They can’t help it.
    Dave Sharma will then write the history of the world from the point of view of climate warriors of the past.

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      Graeme No.3

      nb:

      It would never be published. Are you aware of past predictions by climate warriors? Disaster is always coming, just change the date.
      A brief sample
      1923 Montana Glacier could disappear in 25 years
      Says Professor. Medford Mail Tribune (Oregon) Dec. 29
      1952 Montana’s Glacier Park may need new name
      The giant glaciers are melting away and could be gone in 50 years
      say naturalists The Post-Standard (Syracuse New York) Mar 05, 1952
      2009 No more Glaciers in Montana by 2020?
      National Geographic News March 2 2009
      2014 No more Glaciers in Montana by 2034?
      What will they call Glacier National Park (Montana) in 30 years when all the glaciers are gone? New York Times Nov. 22, 2014

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          Peter C

          What is meant by the vertical axis: Global Glacier Annual thickness change (vertical metres). Do they measure near the bottom of the glacier or up near the top? Is it possible to measure to 0.1m and somehow integrate over all the glaciers in the world?
          I thought they measured glaciers by length, ie advance or retreat of the end face (wall).

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          AndyG55

          A totally meaningless graph, GA

          What average thickness does zero anomaly indicate?

          500m???…. yearly changes are TINY

          And calculating average thickness of all glaciers.. LOL error bars must be HUGE. !

          You do know that most of those glaciers didn’t even exist pre LIA, don’t you gaga?

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          Graeme No.3

          I assume that they weren’t using satellites in 1923, so probably the measurement was the lower end of the glacier.
          My point was that in over 90 years they have recycled the same “Doom, Gloom, the glaciers are melting” story. I can’t help wondering what they would have said in 1850 when the Mt. Blanc glacier retreated so rapidly, to the delight of the locals no longer threatenned with being crushed by an advancing glacier.

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            Gee aye

            Awful that they kept alarming people. I wonder what empirical observations they were responding to, though incorrectly. Oh. Silly me. I just gave a clue.

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              AndyG55

              “I wonder what empirical observations they were responding to”

              You can’t produce any now.

              Silly you.. so true. !!

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          theRealUniverse

          Tony Heller, ex geologist, stated that glaciers grow and shrink under NORMAL conditions. There are many factors in any individual glacier. Some grow right next to some that shrink. So wheres your theory there?

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        theRealUniverse

        https://www.iceagenow.info/vancouver-coldest-oct-10-in-123-years-2nd-cold-record-in-two-days/
        Yes so in my crude geography Montana is reasonably close to Vancouver .. so no more glaciers in Montana by ..(fill in absurd date here..)
        iceagenow is a great source of posting the record LOW temperatures that never get into the MSM except a few local papers.

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    beowulf

    Here’s another genius at work regarding the announcement of 1 new dam, 1 possible new dam, and another upgraded, all in NSW.

    From Nature Conservation Council chief Chris Gambian:
    “Governments stopped building dams 30 years ago for a very good reason. Dams fail to provide water security for local communities . . .”

    So Sydney doesn’t need Warragamba? Newcastle doesn’t need Chichester, Tomago and Grahamstown? They all fail to provide water apparently. Sydney should go back to bucketing water out of the Tank Stream when it runs.

    What DOES provide water security for local communities if not dams?

    Chris is upset because a rule by-passing the usual suspects would allow Water Minister Melinda Pavey and Planning Department secretary Jim Betts to direct bureaucrats to disregard some planning processes for critical water infrastructure.

    One proposal would be to slash the length of biodiversity surveys which could cut approval times by up to a year alone.
    WaterNSW advice, showed the changes could speed up the delivery of the projects by up to two years.

    I would suggest the time saving would be far greater than 2 years. A new subdivision near me was held up for about 7 years by the discovery of an endangered shrub on the site. It was newly-discovered in 1999. $100,000 was set aside to propagate it and after years of obfuscation and hand-wringing, the subdivision was finally allowed to proceed.

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      RicDre

      Ross:

      Thanks for posting extinction rebellion link. One the interesting comments in the link:

      Extinction Rebellion’s finances have come under scrutiny as the group has paid no taxes on the money it has paid to its activist members. A document seen by The Mail on Sunday showed that even members of the group have become concerned, saying that HMRC would “crawl all over us” and that they expected fines from the government in the range of £150,000 to £200,000.

      Being arrested for blocking traffic is one thing, but tax evasion is absolutely outside the bounds of acceptable behavior. It kind of reminds me of the 1930′s Chicago mobster Al Copone; he killed a lot of people but he never went to jail for those crimes. In the end he went to jail for tax evasion.

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        theRealUniverse

        These morons need to be seriously investigated by ATO, and others. BUT they wont, its all to touchy feely. Cant upset the ‘agenda’.

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    RicDre

    For a sobering glimpse of where the Green New Deal is designed to take us:

    My Socialist Hell: 20 Years of Decay in Venezuela

    https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2019/10/13/my-socialist-hell-20-years-of-decay-in-venezuela/

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    pat

    heard a Beyond Blue spokeswoman on community radio this week saying anxiety is the #1 thing on their online forums – 4018 threads; depression second with 3830 at time of posting). also mentioned they were introducing materials into the schools, and said their staff had gone from 10 to 200:

    https://www.beyondblue.org.au/get-support/online-forums

    spokeswoman said – from memory – they get 40% of their funding from the Commonwealth Govt, 35% from State Govts & the rest from philanthropists and individual donors. their online Annual Financial Statements for year ended 30 June 2018 showed revenue of $65m-plus. Julia Gillard has been the Chair since 2014.

    11 Feb: Beyond Blue Forum: Animal cruelty, climate change, monoculture…the list goes on
    I feel hopeless and have decided not to have children because of the state of the world (why would I wish to bring a child into this when I myself, do not like to live here?). Does anyone else feel the same?
    https://www.beyondblue.org.au/get-support/online-forums/long-term-support-over-the-journey/animal-cruelty-climate-change-monoculture-the-list-goes-on-

    25 Jun 2017: Beyond Blue Forum: Worried about the future, war, climate change, health etc…
    Bec.98: Hi everyone. I made a post a little while ago but thought I’d make another one in this section with some updates.
    Lately I’ve been experiencing anxiety, depression and general fear related to the future/my life…
    I’d like to write a list of some of the things worrying me and, if I may, keep a bit of a diary here of my thoughts and feelings. Maybe some of you can offer some consolation on the subjects. Here goes…
    -Apocalypse, of some description. End of the world. A deadly virus/plague. The Sun dying or burning us all. Zombies. Anything.
    -Climate change/global warming, rising seas, flooding, natural disasters, drought, suffocation from dust or co2, an ice age? Anything related to climate change is one of my biggest worries at the moment. I read that Stephan Hawking says humans only have 100 years left on earth. I won’t be here by then, but does that mean the last years/decades of my life will be horrible?…
    Sophie_M Community Moderator: Hi Bec, thanks for posting again. As this post is a continuation of your other thread, we’re going to close it off – we encourage members to keep to one thread per topic, to save doubling up of posts.
    Please continue your discussion in the original thread: LINK
    https://www.beyondblue.org.au/get-support/online-forums/young-people/worried-about-the-future-war-climate-change-health-etc-

    Beyond Blue: Secondary schools program
    https://www.beyondblue.org.au/healthy-places/secondary-schools-and-tertiary/secondary-schools-program

    12 Oct 2017: Beyond Blue: Beyond Blue Chair Julia Gillard delivers 2017 Annual Bob Hawke Lecture
    These geopolitical and economic upheavals have converged with a triumvirate of social, environmental and technological changes, ranging from …
    Baby Boomers becoming grey nomads,
    Climate change becoming undeniable in any reasonable mind, and
    Digital disruption becoming the revolution of our age…
    And we are planning to launch, with Commonwealth support, a new national program for all Australian schools and early learning services next year…
    That new program for children and adolescents has the potential to be a game changer – because it’s a unique opportunity for us to work with educators to improve the mental health and wellbeing of the next generation before they leave school…

    ‘Age of Anxiety’
    As Beyond Blue continues our vital work on depression and suicide prevention, we are also determined to lead a nation-wide conversation and plan of action on the most common mental health condition – anxiety…

    Many speeches, articles and books are now devoted to trying to unpack the many implications – positive and negative – of our world of fast change.
    Certainly, events like Brexit and the election of President Trump show that there is a backlash, that those hit and hurt by change want to lash out.

    Think of the circumstances of unskilled or semi-skilled Western white men.
    Challenged by economic change, the gender revolution and the migration of people, culture and ideas, every reality they thought they could rely on has given way underneath them.
    Anxiety is an understandable response…
    Add to this the phenomenon of ‘fake news’ and the ability of individuals to exist in self-reinforcing bubbles of opinion divorced from facts, and it all is a recipe for even more anxiety – not to mention anger…
    That’s why Beyond Blue has launched a new Anxiety campaign: “Know when anxiety is talking.”…
    https://www.beyondblue.org.au/media/news/news/2017/10/12/beyondblue-chair-julia-gillard-delivers-2017-annual-bob-hawke-lecture

    13 Jul: SMH: Julia Gillard’s global warming: life after politics
    By Jacqueline Maley
    It’s a warm May morning a few days before this year’s federal election, and Julia Gillard is in an office tower, high above the Sydney CBD, doing a Tony Abbott impression. Specifically, she’s doing an impression of Tony Abbott crunching ice, loudly and with gusto. This is something, she says, that Tony used to do a lot. She calls him by his first name as though they’re old friends. As though their relationship was not slightly more complex than that…

    She works in various roles representing what she calls the “golden threads” of her prime ministership: education, women’s leadership and mental health. She jets around the world giving speeches on gender and leadership, including hosting Q&As with her friend Hillary Clinton and visiting Africa with pop star Rihanna, her new BFF (more on that later)…

    When at home, she’s kept busy with a raft of positions, including as visiting professor at Adelaide University; as patron of the John Curtin Prime Ministerial Library in Western Australia; and with Beyond Blue, where she’s been a board member since 2014…

    During Gillard’s prime ministership, Abbott famously stood at a volatile anti-carbon tax rally among signs calling her a “bitch” and “witch”…
    “The sort of living, breathing thing that the carbon tax, in inverted commas, became … the hostility of sections of the media. I do, I do marvel at it. No, maybe not ‘marvel’. ‘Puzzle’ is the right word. I puzzle at it still.”…
    https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/julia-gillard-s-global-warming-life-after-politics-20190709-p525f4.html

    the spokewoman on radio this week said they are non-partisan.

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    pat

    13 Oct: Daily Mail: Queen’s £100m a year windfall: Green energy earnings of the Royal Family are set to be boosted by an auction for the biggest offshore windpower development in the world
    •If Royals were still paid by the long-established Civil List, they would not benefit
    •But they now get 25 per cent of profits from Crown Estate after a deal in 2012
    •Estate owns seabed within Britain’s territorial waters that extend almost 14 miles
    By IAN GALLAGHER CHIEF REPORTER FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDAY
    The green energy earnings of the Royal Family are being significantly boosted by an auction, which formally began last week, for the biggest offshore windpower development in the world.
    If they were still being paid by the long-established Civil List, the Royals would not have benefited.
    However, the then Chancellor George Osborne replaced it in 2012 with the Sovereign Grant…
    Crucially, the deal gives the Queen 25 per cent of the profits from the Crown Estate, which owns the seabed within Britain’s territorial waters that extend almost 14 miles from the coast…

    The Crown Estate charges rent equal to two per cent of revenues for use of its seabeds for windfarms and collected £41million last year.
    It will also collect ‘option fees’ each year from successful bidders for the five new highly lucrative concessions.
    In a comprehensive examination of Royal finances, former Liberal Democrat Minister and Privy Counsellor Norman Baker describes in a new book how the abolition of the Civil List ‘has proved hugely profitable’ for the Queen.

    He said that the windpower development ‘will provide a bumper windfall of hundreds of millions for the Queen, a vast sum that before George Osborne’s disastrous intervention would have gone back to the Treasury’…
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7566749/Queens-100m-year-windfall-Green-energy-earnings-Royal-Family.html

    don’t know how the following figures in the above:

    from online document: The Sovereign Grant and Sovereign Grant Reserve Annual Report and Accounts 2018-19
    The Sovereign Grant for 2019-20 is £82.4 million (Australian $153 million) (Core £49.4 million and Reservicing £33.0 million).

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    pat

    how dare they try to steal our lives!

    11 Oct: BBC: Climate change: Big lifestyle changes are the only answer
    By Justin Rowlatt, Chief Environment correspondent
    The UK government must tell the public small, easy changes will not be enough to tackle climate change, warn experts.
    Researchers from Imperial College London say we must eat less meat and dairy, swap cars for bikes, take fewer flights, and ditch gas boilers at home.
    The report, seen by BBC Panorama (LINK), has been prepared for the Committee on Climate Change, which advises ministers how to cut the UK’s carbon footprint.
    It says an upheaval in our lifestyles is the only way to meet targets.

    The new report, called Behaviour Change, Public Engagement and Net Zero, amounts to an extensive “to-do” list for government.
    It says subsidies for fossil fuels have to go and taxes on low-carbon technologies must be cut.
    At the same time, consumers need to be given far more information on the environmental consequences of their actions.
    It also urges the government to consider introducing a carbon tax, increasing the prices of carbon-intensive products and activities…

    “These changes need not be expensive or reduce well-being,” the report concludes, “but they will not happen at the pace required unless policy first removes obstacles to change in markets and consumer choice.”
    PIC: Justin tucks into a “bug burger”: There needs to be a shift to lower carbon foods, such as mealworm…

    The BBC Panorama programme Climate Change: What Can We Do? is on BBC One on Monday 14 October (except BBC Scotland).
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49997755

    14 Oct: BBC Panorama: Climate Change: What Can We Do?
    This programme will be available shortly after broadcast.
    The government has promised Britain will radically reduce carbon emissions to achieve net-zero emissions by 2050. To get there, we’ll need to make big changes to the way we live – to our homes, how we travel, and what we eat – but how much difference will these changes really make? With the help of a family in Nottingham, Justin Rowlatt finds out what are the most important things we can do and asks what the government is doing to encourage us to change the way we live.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0009drg

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    pat

    shame on UK Times/Appleyard:

    behind paywall:

    13 Oct: UK Times: The climate crisis: can we fix it?
    Yes, we can, argues Bryan Appleyard. Climate change has ushered in a new era of anxiety, but existing or nascent technological solutions — from lab-grown meat to nuclear fusion reactors — may help us avoid the apocalypse
    Cities are clogged with young protesters crying “Extinction!” Greta Thunberg spits out “How dare you?” at the ruling classes and the complacent old. How dare we sell the futures of young people for our cars, our planes, our meat and our addiction to economic growth? Next weekend, unsurprisingly, there will be a conference in London about new forms of mental illness: climate anxieties and depression.
    Climate crisis, says the blurb, “presents psychotherapy with a complex but urgent challenge: how do we move from dread to resilience, from catastrophe to transformation, from helplessness to action, from fear to hope?”

    How indeed. Human life, the protesters all agree, has not long to go. At best a few of us will survive in the soon ice-free but still mercifully cool polar regions. At worst, none will survive…
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-climate-crisis-can-we-fix-it-nl2cfgctg

    Wikipedia: Bryan Appleyard was appointed Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE) in the 2019 Birthday Honours for services to journalism and the arts.

    22 Sept: UK Times: Does Extinction Rebellion really hold the solution to climate change?
    We’re doomed unless we take drastic action to stop climate change, says the environmental group bent on mass disruption. Are they right? Bryan Appleyard reports
    London is to be shut down for a week in October. If all goes to plan, New York, Paris, Madrid, Berlin and many other cities will also close. In fact, it may be two weeks, not one, starting from October 7. Be warned.
    The mastermind of this urban chaos is Roger Hallam, co-founder of the climate activist group Extinction Rebellion. He started out as an organic farmer in Wales until the weather “went weird” and his crops failed. Then he went to King’s College London, where he studied civil disobedience. He learnt a lot.

    “What I’m aiming towards,” he says, “is people unable to move in London for a week. That will be the biggest disruption since 1968.” That year, protests against capitalism and the…
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/does-extinction-rebellion-really-hold-the-solution-to-climate-change-jvts27hhq

    google threw up the following excerpt as wel:

    The problem is capitalism… ***through cruelty and violence [especially] over the last 600 years of colonialism, although the roots of the infections go much further back.”

    ***the exact same quote is in the following, which possibly Appleyard was quoting:

    11 Jan: Medium: Extinction Rebellion isn’t about the Climate
    by Stuart Basden
    I’ve been with Extinction Rebellion (XR) from the start. I was one of the 15 people in April 2018 who came together and made the collective decision to try to create the conditions that would initiate a rebellion. I was a coordinator of one of the original five working groups, and I’ve been organising with XR day-and-night since then (frugally living off my savings so I don’t have to work, having quit an industry that paid me £1000/week). And I’ve been in RisingUp (the organisation from which XR has emerged) since the first RisingUp action in November 2016. I’m a RisingUp Holding Group member, and a member of the XR Guardianship Team…

    And I’m here to say that XR isn’t about the climate. You see, the climate’s breakdown is a symptom of a toxic system of that has infected the ways we relate to each other as humans and to all life. This was exacerbated when European ‘civilisation’ was spread around the globe ***through cruelty and violence (especially) over the last 600 years of colonialism, although the roots of the infections go much further back.

    As Europeans spread their toxicity around the world, they brought torture, genocide, carnage and suffering to the ends of the earth…READ ALL
    https://medium.com/@plaosmos/extinction-rebellion-isnt-about-the-climate-42a0a73d9d49

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    pat

    well at least they are still publishing Lawson!

    behind paywall:

    13 Oct: UK Times: Behind science’s mask, Extinction Rebellion is a doomsday cult
    Politicians must stop pandering to the ‘crusties’ bringing havoc to London
    by Dominic Lawson
    When rebels try to seize control of their country, it is traditional to begin by taking over the state broadcaster. Perhaps it is in that context that we should view the siege of New Broadcasting House on Friday by the rebels of Extinction Rebellion (XR). They declared that their motive was to end the BBC’s “silence” on climate change.

    Honestly, these people are hilarious. The BBC is obsessed with climate change: scarcely a day goes by when it does not have a news story linked to the issue. And its very own Gandalf, the former BBC2 controller Sir David Attenborough, has become almost a full-time campaigner on the subject.
    In July, the BBC actually invited one of the founders of XR, Gail Bradbrook, to “advise” its editorial team on how to report on climate change…

    With the exception of Andrew Neil — whose forensic questioning of an XR spokeswoman by the name of Zion Lights exposed how their prognostications of impending doom are based not on the science of the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) but on a desire to infect the rest of us with their own misanthropic terror — broadcasters and politicians treat the demonstrators’ arguments as if they were above criticism…
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/behind-sciences-mask-extinction-rebellion-is-a-doomsday-cult-8pmbcktqr

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      pat

      reminder – XR and BBC are virtually a single entity. BBC can’t move without XR’s permission:

      11 Oct: UK Telegraph: Extinction Rebellion London: BBC Broadcasting House ‘locked down’ by protesters
      By Gareth Davies
      Extinction Rebellion activists have set up a barricade outside the BBC’s New Broadcasting House as the protest group accused the broadcaster of “deadly silence” over climate change. One journalist said the protesters were not letting anyone in or out of the building and a BBC reporter said the building was “locked down”…
      In a statement, Extinction Rebellion said the latest stunt was to “call on the BBC to meet its crucial moral duty to tell the full truth on the climate and ecological emergency”.

      But a BBC spokesman said: “The BBC already covers many climate change and environmental issues across its output.
      “Programmes like Blue Planet II and Climate Change: The Facts have had a huge impact on the public debate both in this country and around the world.
      “We know how important these issues are to audiences and will continue to focus on them across both news and non-news programmes, whilst internally doing all we can to lead the way in promoting sustainability in the media industry.”…
      Financial journalist Paul Lewis tweeted: “Locked out of BBC by extinction rebellion.”…

      An update that arrests had reached more than 1,000 – and which stood at 1,112 at 8am on Friday – came as The Telegraph revealed one of Britain’s richest men ***Sir Christopher Hohn (LINK), who is worth £1.2 billion, made a personal donation of £50,000 to the environmental group.
      “I recently gave them £50,000 because humanity is aggressively destroying the world with climate change and there is an urgent need for us all to wake up to this fact,” Mr Hohn told The Telegraph.
      The Children’s Investment Fund Foundation, a charity co-founded by the billionaire, has also donated more than £150,000.
      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/11/extinction-rebellion-london-bbc-broadcasting-house-locked-protesters/

      *** Chris Hohn is an English billionaire hedge fund manager. In 2003, Hohn established The Children’s Investment Fund Management (TCI), a prominent value-based investment fund manager noted for long-term, owner orientated engagement with publicly listed companies. Profits generated by the fund were proportionately allocated to The Children’s Investment Fund Foundation, a registered charity in England and Wales that focuses on improving the lives of children living in poverty in developing countries. He is known as an activist investor.
      In 2019 it was revealed that Hohn had donated £50,000 to environmental activist group Extinction Rebellion, with a further £150,000 donated by the Children’s Investment Fund Foundation. None of the Charity’s money was spent on civil disobedience, it was claimed.
      Hohn was appointed Knight Commander of the Order of St Michael and St George (KCMG) in the 2014 Birthday Honours for services to philanthropy and international development – Wikipedia

      reminder – ***two months after XR appeared on the FakeNewsMSM scene:

      21 Dec 2018: Guardian: BBC’s London HQ put on lockdown over climate change protest
      Extinction Rebellion group calls for environment to be made ‘top editorial issue’
      by Jim Waterson
      The BBC’s central London headquarters has been put on lockdown due to a protest by climate change campaigners who are demanding it uses its status as national broadcaster to declare a “climate and ecological emergency”…
      Broadcasting House was locked down early on Friday afternoon, with BBC staff and guests unable to enter or leave the building while security kept the peaceful but noisy protesters away from the entrance…
      Extinction Rebellion activists, who are demanding a meeting with the BBC director general, Tony Hall, said the corporation had a duty to broadcast about climate change with “the level of urgency placed on informing the public about the second world war”…

      The broadcaster Anneka Rice said she was stuck in the BBC reception “with Simon Mayo, Ken Bruce and three policemen” during the protest.
      Extinction Rebellion also organised protests on Friday at BBC offices in Bristol, Glasgow, Cambridge, Birmingham, Truro, Sheffield, Bangor, and the broadcaster’s Berlin bureau.
      ***The campaign group launched two months ago…

      The BBC has been criticised for its coverage of climate change, especially the decision to give airtime to climate change sceptics such as Lord Lawson, who oppose the scientific consensus. Earlier this year, the head of news, Fran Unsworth, told staff that the corporation had struggled with the topic: “Climate change has been a difficult subject for the BBC, and we get coverage of it wrong too often.”
      She added: “To achieve impartiality, you do not need to include outright deniers of climate change in BBC coverage; in the same way you would not have someone denying that Manchester United won 2-0 last Saturday. The referee has spoken.”

      The BBC acknowledged it had received a letter from a “newly formed campaign group” but did not comment on the demand for a meeting with the director general.
      “The BBC has a proud record of leading the way in sustainability in the media industry and we’ve set out further action including cutting energy use further, eradicating single-use plastic and minimising the impact of necessary travel,” said a spokesperson.
      “In the last charter period, we reduced our carbon footprint by a third.”…
      https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/dec/21/bbc-london-headquarters-put-on-lockdown-over-protest-by-climate-change-campaigners-extinction-rebellion

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        pat

        XR’s virtual godfather – George Monbiot, regular columnist at The Guardian:

        TWEET: Intelligence Squared (Intelligence Squared debates have also been broadcast globally on BBC World – Wikipedia)- 16h ago
        As #ExtinctionRebellion protests rage across the globe, we’re asking, must capitalism end to prevent climate collapse?
        @GeorgeMonbiot + @farhanaclimate will argue yes!
        @AdairTurnerUK + @TonyJuniper will argue no!
        13 Oct 2019
        https://twitter.com/intelligence2/status/1183339899073826816

        TWEET: George Monbiot – 12h ago
        This is utter genius, and anyone who does not watch it will be deported to our re-education camps on the Isle of Wight.
        LINK BBC Two VIDEO 5min53sec
        This week, Extinction Rebellion shut down 60 cities globally. Here’s @MrNishKumar’s take on it all… #TheMashReport
        13 Oct 2019
        https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1183402946177974275

        reminder back when XR first emerged:

        TWEET: Roger Harrabin
        The BBC has a duty of impartiality and has feared being accused of taking sides. Also the NHU has typically felt that people want to see animals, not humans. But it seems that last we are giving prime time to showing what a mess we are making on our planet
        14 Oct 2018
        FROM REPLIES:
        GEORGE MONBIOT, GUARDIAN
        This is welcome news. But … if you were the BBC, how often would you air a film about our great existential threat? Once a month, or once every 11 years?…

        CONTINUE ON GEORGE MONBIOT’S TWITTER PAGE:
        I can testify that, repeatedly over the past 25 years, people seeking to make films about our environmental crises have been dismissed out of hand, angrily and often with the f-word, by the BBC’s channel controllers. They weren’t indifferent. They were actively hostile…
        In one case, a producer I know was asked, before the controller had even looked at his programme proposal, “Is this environment?”
        “Yes.”
        “I’ve spent two years trying to get environment off this f—ing channel. So why the f— are you bringing me environment?”…
        In other cases, producers have simply been told to f— off. I have come to believe that the BBC is as culpable as any organisation for the UK’s failure to engage with these issues…
        I *think* things are now changing. But I thought that at the beginning of the BBC’s previous environmental renaissance, in 1989. That lasted 3 years, before the gates slammed shut again…
        12 Oct 2018
        https://twitter.com/rharrabin/status/1051386050529124352

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        Furiously curious

        David Attenbourgh’s program was mentioned – “Climate change- The Facts”. I did watch it, wanting ‘the facts’. But unfortunately it was a fact free zone. An hour of cyclones, floods, droughts and fires, basically Apocalypse Now. But there was one fact, when they showed poor little bats, dropping dead, out of trees, due to the unprecedented 42 degree temps in Cairns over last(?) summer. Very moving, and unprecedented. Then I thought, that shouldn’t be hard to look up, so I googled Cairns’ record temp, and 43.1 degrees in 1921 popped up.
        I don’t know how to go more deeply into the yearly records, but it would be interesting to know how often 42* has been reached, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t fairly often?

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          Peter C

          Agree Furious.

          I also watched the program and was( UN) impressed by the almost complete lack of facts,
          I also thought that 42C in Cain’s bust be very unusual, which it is, but not unprecedented.
          true
          Attenborough said that the flying foxes in Cairns were well heat adapted, which clearly was not true, as proved by the deaths. In fact they have no sweat glands, so have not able to cool well when the ambient temperature gets above body temperature.

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      pat

      Slithers –

      not vouching for everything in your linked piece, or in the sourced article linked. however, I did wonder why neither had a link to evidence showing any connection between Greta and Arrhenius, as was suggested:

      “But why Greta? Because she belongs, as it were, to global warming “royalty,” being directly related to that very Swedish scientist who, a little over a century ago, invented, and then popularized, the concepts of both global warming and man-made climate change. His name was Svante August Arrhenius (1859–1927), and his mother was a Thunberg”

      was stunned to find this easily at Union of Concerned Scientists Blog:

      20 Sept: UCUSA Blog: I’m a Scientist and Greta Thunberg’s Speech to Congress Inspires Me
      by Brenda Ekwurzel, senior climate scientist
      I was honored to meet Greta Thunberg…
      Moments before Greta’s powerful speech to members of Congress on September 18, 2019 in the largest room on Capitol Hill, the Ways and Means Committee room, she was preparing in a small room. Those of us with her stood a little away so that she might think about the words she was about to share with the world. Her father, Svante Thunberg, deftly encouraged us to speak in low tones while still engaging in friendly conversation. I remarked to him that I admired his first name because I appreciate that he shares it with the Swedish scientist and Nobel laureate in chemistry, Svante Arrhenius, who made noteworthy contributions in climate science by pointing out how different levels of carbon dioxide concentration in the atmosphere would affect Earth’s climate (the so-called “greenhouse effect”)…

      Svante Thunberg smiled and replied that he grew up knowing that he was related to, and named after, the Nobel laureate. However, until recently no one in Greta’s family quite understood exactly what Arrhenius was honored for. Mr. Thunberg said he himself did not truly appreciate it until Greta started to seriously learn more about climate change. With a twinkle in his eye and mirthful irony he posited this as a kind of an indicator that even Arrhenius’s own descendants were not sufficiently aware of the climate science—which likely means this applies to most people. Sure enough, if you look at the Nobel Prize website page, “Svante August Arrhenius was born on February 19, 1859, the son of Svante Gustaf Arrhenius and Carolina Christina Thunberg.” Greta is distantly related to Svante Arrhenius.

      Full circle: we have now received two warnings from Swedish thinkers, one from the 19th century and one from the 21st century. Svante Arrhenius put forth a theory that scientists have been building and expanding ever since, “standing on the shoulders of giants” as the saying goes…

      On Wednesday, Greta testified before the U.S. House of Representatives Committee and gave what my colleague, Alden Meyer, called the shortest and most powerful testimony he has heard anyone give in Congress during his decades in Washington…

      Hours later, I saw her speech to members of Congress and participated in the panel discussion that followed. It was an honor to sit beside Greta and watch her listen carefully to each question then reply with refreshing honesty, great clarity and power. I have been working in climate science and advocating for climate action for most of my working life. Even so, Greta has inspired me to do more to reduce emissions and share the latest science, with Greta’s words always in mind…
      Let’s act now. #UniteBehindTheScience.

      PIC: Greta Thunberg and Brenda Ekwurzel during panel discussion after her speech in the Ways and Means Committee room of the U.S. House of Representatives on September 18, 2019. Photo by Alden Meyer
      https://blog.ucsusa.org/brenda-ekwurzel/im-a-scientist-greta-thunbergs-speech-to-congress-inspires-me

      UCUSA: Brenda Ekwurzel, Senior Climate Scientist, Director of Climate Science
      Brenda Ekwurzel is a senior climate scientist and the director of climate science for the Climate & Energy Program at the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS). In her role, she ensures that program analyses reflect robust and relevant climate science, and researches the influence of major carbon producers on rising global average temperatures and sea level. Dr. Ekwurzel is a co-author of the fourth National Climate Assessment (NCA4) Volume II. She presents frequently to a range of audiences on climate science, educating the public on practical, achievable solutions for climate change.
      Prior to joining UCS, Dr. Ekwurzel was on the faculty of the University of Arizona in their department of hydrology and water resources, with a joint appointment in the geosciences department…
      Dr. Ekwurzel earned a B.S. in geology from Smith College, and an M.S. in geoscience from Rutgers University. She holds a Ph.D. in isotope geochemistry from the Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences at Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, and conducted post-doctoral research at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, in California…
      She has appeared on ABC News, CBS News, Good Morning America, CNN, the Fox News Channel, NPR, and The Colbert Report, and has been cited by the Washington Post, USA Today, the Associated Press and Reuters.
      https://www.ucsusa.org/about/people/brenda-ekwurzel?_ga=2.25031162.1370094109.1571034681-352201082.1528605190

      UCUSA: Alden Meyer
      Alden Meyer is director of strategy and policy for the Union of Concerned Scientists and the co-director of its Washington, DC, office…
      Mr. Meyer is an expert on the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, the Paris Agreement, and other aspects of international climate policy. He has attended the climate negotiations since they first started in 1991, and his analysis and advocacy have helped shape both U.S. and UN policies…
      Before coming to UCS in 1989, Mr. Meyer served as executive director of four national organizations: the League of Conservation Voters, Americans for the Environment, Environmental Action, and the Environmental Action Foundation. Before that, he worked as a policy analyst on electric utility issues and nuclear power economics for the Environmental Action Foundation and as energy issues coordinator for the Connecticut Citizen Action Group.
      Mr. Meyer received his undergraduate degree from Yale in 1975, concentrating in political science and economics. He received a master’s degree in human resource and organization development from American University in 1990…
      He has appeared on ABC, CBS, CNN, NPR, and NBC, as well as on the Today Show, Al Jazeera, BBC, SkyNews, and other broadcast outlets. He has been quoted in stories on global warming and energy issues in the Associated Press, Bloomberg News, Agence France Presse, Reuters, The New York Times, The Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, USA Today, and many other U.S. and international news outlets.
      https://www.ucsusa.org/about/people/alden-meyer

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        theRealUniverse

        Svante Arrhenius..and his mother was a Thunberg.., the thick plottens…
        Interesting..Although much as they might KNOW or not, he was proved wrong.

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    Another Ian

    A friend’s opinion:- “The global warming best summary I’ve seen”.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYhCQv5tNsQ&feature=youtu.be

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      Looking at the comments it appears as if the Leftists at YouTube are doing their best to prevent people finding this via search engine (link works fine).

      I have not looked at it, but this would suggest that it seriously damages the rubbish “global warming” theory, and hence we have the usual leftist attempts at silencing.

      So much like a Russian work colleague tells me went on in the old Soviet union. Did you know in the old Soviet Union you could not get newspapers at the library more than 12-18 months old? Commies wanted to be able to continuously rewrite history!!!! This is true.

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      TdeF

      Excellent video. Will watch it all later but so far it is spot on, with authority and all the senior experts in the field. The one point which is missing always is that there is almost no man made CO2 in the air. Without that, the idea of man made anything collapses.

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      Serp

      The attempted suppression of this documentary feature by the ABC back in 2007 was what initiated my suspicions that the IPCC was more than likely stooging us –after all in a free country we’re entitled to view the arguments and make up our own minds I thought. Then the country elected Kevin07 and the whole renewables disaster was unleashed upon it.

      I suspect that XR represents the last sputtering flare up of the brain dead science free decarbonization movement before its total extinguishment.

      Unfortunately the damage done in Australia and, more particularly, the UK will take many decades to remediate –here in Victoria under the intransigent Daniel Andrews’s government we’re still hell bent on dynamiting the remaining coal fired power stations as soon as possible. You’ve gotta laugh…

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      Furiously curious

      Watch it! 12 years old, and totally current. Downloaded in case it disappears.

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    Maptram

    Deniliquin NSW is an interesting place to look at for weather and climate data. The BOM currently provides data from it’s site at the airport and data is available starting from 3 June 1997. The highest daily temperature was 47.2°C on 25th January 2019. Climate change alarmists would say this proves that climate change is happening.

    BUT

    From 1 Feb 1858 to 29 June 2003 the BOM provided data from a Visitors Centre Site, which is about 4 kms from the airport. The maximum temperature recorded at the Visitors Centre was 49.6 on 12th January 1878. The airport maximum of 47.2 was also achieved at the visitors centre on 2 Feb 1897, and was beaten on 9th December 1874. So much for the record high temperatures in 2019.

    The other interesting thing is that there is data available from both sites for the period June 1997 to June 2003.

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      TdeF

      It would be interesting to have an array of digital thermometers over a large area and see how much the temperature varied over a grid say 5km x 5km. There is no reason a priori to assume that it would be the same over the entire area, but honestly who knows?

      So when someone picks a record temperature at a particular thermometer in the South of France and no other, even adjacent ones, as happened last year for their new record, all you learn is that at the exact location and around that time, that was the temperature.
      However when you then claim the country has had the hottest day on record, that is just silly. Unless you mean the hottest day at a single location at a particular time, maybe. Except you probably do not have history which goes back far enough to even claim that.

      That is why you should never change the raw data. You fit data. Worse, you do not change it and create new data recorded by no instrument at all. There is something very wrong with the methodology of the BOM that they change data and the historic record high temperature moves around? These people need a few lessons in experimental science and the number one rule is not to change the data. It’s almost the most basic rule in science. Otherwise the models determine the data and you cannot use the data then to validate the models. The bias is built in. Or is that the idea?

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        Greg in NZ

        Most days there’s a 2 to 5 degree difference in temps for the Auckland City area – whether it’s in town, the North Shore, hills to the west or hills to the south-east, or the airport to the south. The city’s built on an isthmus, surrounded by not only two harbours, but two oceans as well, with hills/ranges and wind/sea breezes in all directions. Keep it simple: record the hottest! coz it makes lots of cents.

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        Kalm Keith

        Good idea, a grid.
        The results would be very embarrassing for those who believe that analysing atmospheric temperature to the nth degree is “scientific”.

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        theRealUniverse

        Not only is it terribly wrong it is totally unscientific and also defies statistics.

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        Furiously curious

        The Paris/Low Countries record was interesting. They are talking about a green house effect. So the sun beats down on the area, heats up some layer of the atmosphere, which builds up in the atmosphere, causing ground temps to rise. Is that how a green house works? But in this case someone switched on a massive heating unit, plugged it in, and pumped in very hot air from the Sahara. Where is the green house in that?

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    Greg in NZ

    Way off topic, but as Travis T. Jones suggested earlier at #13,
    The most effective weapon is laughter, mocking, sarcasm… take no prisoners! Aye aye Sir!

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/shotover-jet-could-first-tourism-business-in-world-run-e-boats

    “Ngāi Tahu Tourism’s new electric boat project is set to convert one of its petrol-powered [grunty V8] jet boats to 100 per cent electric… it would make Shotover Jet the first tourism business in the world to operate an electric jet boat”. What could go wrong

    The company’s spokes-thingy, Jolanda, in a radio interview this arvo re the 1x ‘carbon zero electric conversion’ said, “I think it’s going to flip the industry on its head”. Ouch! Faux pas supremo, Jolanda: she must be new on the job – not so long ago a jet-boat passenger lost their head life when the boat they were in flipped and landed on… yep, ouch.

    But hey, they’re moving forward to “a more sustainable future, for us and our children after us – mō tātou, ā, mō kā uri ā muri ake nei”. Qué?

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      Chad

      I hope they have done their research
      Getting that 500+ hp performance for 30 mins is going to be interesting, requireing a heafty battery (1000 kg ) and a lot of recharge time……
      ….not attractive features for that kind of commercial jet boat.
      A classic case of “virtue signaling” .

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        Greg in NZ

        “The news comes as the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority (EECA) announced that Ngāi Tahu Tourism was one of four projects to receive funding from its Marine Electrification Fund”.

        “Earlier this year, Ngāi Tahu Tourism received co-funding from the Government’s Low Emission Vehicles Contestable Fund, administered by EECA, to install electric vehicle chargers at five of its businesses”.

        Other people’s money – no probs. Hey, some of that is MY money!

        That wonderful grunty, throaty, V8 vroom sound will still be echoing round the valley for a few more years/decades yet methinks. I used to live up above the gorge in Arthur’s Point, Q’town, where you could almost set your clock to the screaming thrillseekers as the jets roared them through the gap. Just wonder how they’re going to electrify their helicopters…

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    pat

    why were BBC & Guardian at the launch of XR?
    groups are launched all the time, but there’s not a possibility any major MSM will be interested.

    quite a coincidence that both BBC and Guardian quoted the same individual out of many, Lizia Woolf, whose brief statement can be found in the FB page below – yet Woolf’s name appears nowhere in the media – before, during or after the XR launch! BBC also quotes Tiana Jacout and she continues to be quoted in Guardian, Sky UK, UK Times & more, as you would expect:

    12 Nov 2018: BBC: Climate change protests leads to ’22 arrests’ over blockade
    By Roger Harrabin
    The first mass meeting of the organisation last month drew 1,000 people to Westminster and blocked roads for two hours. There were 15 arrests…
    But ***Lizia Wolf told BBC News she felt compelled to act.
    “The facts and figures are easily accessible if you have the stomach to look, but here within Extinction Rebellion and certainly with myself, is an offer of friendship, guidance and mutual grief.
    “The first step towards creating the changes necessary for survival – and towards solving any problem in general – is to acknowledge the utterly terrifying situation we are in.”…

    Another protester, Tiana Jacout, 31, from Bristol, told BBC News: “Finally! Someone has given us all permission to rage against the idea that we are barrelling towards extinction…
    The protesters were boosted by a letter from 100 academics in the Guardian – including the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams…
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46172661

    14 Nov 2018: Guardian: The Earth is in a death spiral. It will take radical action to save us
    by George Monbiot
    A young woman called ***Lizia Woolf stepped forward. She hadn’t spoken before, but the passion, grief and fury of her response was utterly compelling. “What is it that you are asking me as a 20-year-old to face and to accept about my future and my life? … This is an emergency. We are facing extinction. When you ask questions like that, what is it you want me to feel?” We had no answer…

    The oligarchic control of wealth, politics, media and public discourse explains the comprehensive institutional failure now pushing us towards disaster. Think of Donald Trump and his cabinet of multi-millionaires; the influence of the Koch brothers in funding rightwing organisations; the Murdoch empire and its massive contribution to climate science denial; or the oil and motor companies whose lobbying prevents a faster shift to new technologies…
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/14/earth-death-spiral-radical-action-climate-breakdown

    VIDEO: 8 Nov 2018: Facebook: Real Media
    Parliament Square, 30 Oct 2018
    Lizia Woolf is a 20 year old London-born woman who is worried about her future and the future of young people that are growing up on the south London estates she knows well. She spoke in front of a crowd of around a thousand people attending the #DeclarationofRebellion unauthorised rally in Parliament Square on October 31st etc…
    VIDEO: 41sec
    https://www.facebook.com/realmediaUK/posts/lizia-woolf-is-a-20-year-old-london-born-woman-who-is-worried-about-her-future-a/1891365037619693/

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    ZombieDawg

    I saw a bunch of these climate alarmists in town recently and was sorely tempted to go up to them and tell them some home truths and destroy their idiotic beliefs, but I thought why bother with linear thinking zealots. They’re not worth it.

    They remind me of this classic Monty Python skit:

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  • #
    Erny72

    I dare say the Australian gumment won’t have the minerals to pull-out of the Paris gentleman’s agreement.
    Our deliverance, like Brexit, will eventually be handed to us by EU intransigence. In the case of the Paris gullible warming agreement, it’s demise will naturally follow the inevitable* financial implosion of the EUSSR, who are the most vocal political supporters of the Gang-green ( unless the electorate in the USA has a collective cerebral aneurysm and votes for Elizabeth ‘ban-fracking-everywhere’ Warren or creepy Joe Biden in 2020).
    *Since EU and ECB intransigence prevents them admitting the ship is sinking

    When a continent of dependents are left scurrying about trying to figure out where their next meal is coming from, then even the most ‘enlightened’, ‘progressive’, idealistic yoof will lose their appetite for gluing themselves to footpaths and demanding the ‘lecky to charge their iPhones comes from unicorn farts.
    The Paris agreement won’t need to be dismantled and we won’t have to pull out of it, because it will simply be quietly forgotten about in light of more pressing, real priorities.
    In any case the Paris promise was never a legally binding treaty, it’s nothing more than a virtue signalling gesture. Consequently, ‘pulling out’ is more symbolic than substantial. We could simply stop bothering to send delegates to the annual hot-air fest with empty promises in hand – it’s not like the UN let’s naughty Australia address the assembled ineptocracy anyway as it’s apparently more important to listen to Scoldilocks’ petulant lecturing.

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    pat

    what a ….

    12 Oct: SMH: Peter Hartcher: Political heads in the sand: Denial and inaction as the planet burns
    In Australia, the Coalition has won three successive elections with Tony Abbott’s climate change policies. And absence of energy policies…
    After Howard had lost and Kevin Rudd took power, Malcolm Turnbull persisted with the idea of an emissions trading scheme, but only until Tony Abbott challenged him and won the leadership on a platform of climate scepticism.
    Turnbull, suitably chastised, took his vengeance on Abbott but never tried to change his carbon emissions targets, which remain unchanged to this day under Scott Morrison…

    It’s the parties that promise more active responses – Labor and the Greens – that have failed at the ballot box ever since the Coalition decided to take an antediluvian stance on climate and energy…

    And the idea that Morrison would be forced to act on climate change? The Prime Minister has shown an impressive imperviousness to reality. He shows no sign of deviating. Even as the country suffers record-breaking heatwaves that fuel longer fire seasons and more savage fires…
    Even as climate change aggravates drought, increasingly dries up drinking water for many towns and regions and damages the agricultural industry. He visits the damaged regions of Australia and empathises with the victims of fire, drought and water shortage but will not reconsider his policy on the factor that exacerbates the harm…

    One day the Australian electorate might be sufficiently moved by the planetary crisis unfolding around us that we’re ready to pull our heads out of the sand in sufficient numbers to bring Australian politics into line with reality…
    https://www.smh.com.au/national/political-heads-in-the-sand-denial-and-inaction-as-the-planet-burns-20191011-p52zvy.html

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    • #
      Serp

      I tried to read it but was repelled by its irrationality and quickly skimmed to the end; I suppose I should thank you robert rosicka –it is indeed a doozy.

      Obviously the poor devil has a quota to fill but you’d think he’d show some commitment to his subject and be less perfunctory in his performance. I’d give him an F+/E- for this effort.

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      theRealUniverse

      “But researchers have calculated that we are now pumping out between 40 and 100 times more CO2 than all the volcanoes on Earth.”
      NO! Physically impossible. (not that it matters anyway) Im not sure where they got this ‘fake’ data from. Guess somebody got a HUGE research grant for it…

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    • #
      Graeme No.3

      That article looks like something in The Child’s Book of Climate History minus the facts.
      Way out of date and fixated on CO2 as controlling the climate (hmm! I wonder if PF wrote it?)

      Of the 5 greatest extinctions in the past he ignores 3 (even though one is thought to have been caused by volcanism**). His figures on the end Permian extinction are slightly off when he claims that the Siberian Traps were big enough to cover the (continental) USA with a kilometre of lava. Actually it was at least 2 kilometres and up.
      And the extinction of the dinosaurs was somewhat more drawn out than he thinks he read somewhere. Could well have been up to a million years. And birds survived despite being closely related to dinosaurs.

      ** the End-Triassic extinction (now re-dated as near the end of the Triassic) could have been caused by volcanism as the North American tectonic plate separated from Europe about 210 m.y.a. but is ignored because even the author couldn’t figure out how to blame Trump for that.

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        Graeme No.3

        And every thing is because of a catastrophe. Well how about this?
        Rough date
        450 m.y.a. Ordovician (end) ice age CO2 3,000 p.p.m.
        300 m.y.a. Carboniferous (end) ice age CO2 350 p.p.m.
        150 m.y.a. Jurassic (end) cooling CO2 2500 p.p.m. (snow and some ice in Australia & Antarctica (then joined) but no ice sheet known).
        1 m.y.a. start of current ice age CO2 350 p.p.m. (actual i.e. geological term ICE Age thought to started around 20 or 30 m.y.a. with 500 or 1,000 p.p.m. of CO2).

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          theRealUniverse

          G3 , pretty much proves NO correlation CO2 vs climate doesnt it.
          There was one epoch at 7000ppm.
          Also I suspect that pre life earth, maybe 2-3 GYr BP, it could have been VERY high. Life produced oxygen.

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    DOC

    ‘The science is in!’

    This declaration is the fundamental basis under the Anthropogenic Climate Change movement.
    The power behind the declaration lies in it being an internationally accepted statement, accepted
    particularly by the political powers in control of the governance of the democracies. The mystery
    lies trying to determine why those politicians in particular fell so heavily into believing such
    an incredulous denunciation of the scientific method that had served so well for centuries. It is
    impossible to believe that such crank institutions as The Club of Rome could dominate more youthful
    and better educated people in the political system. What was/is the drawcard. Not all politicians
    are globalists. Not all believe in open borders. Many are Christian in the face of the antichristianity
    movement.

    To kill this climate cult, seeking destruction of western economies, this declaration has to be killed
    off. The planet has to reopen true science, but especially force open debate back, not allow it to be
    shut down by very discriminate use of destruction of reputation, employment and person. This is why
    the world needs more Trumps in charge of nations – preferably with his determination and courage to defy
    carpetbaggers, liars and selfserving, powerful persons and institutions that seek national destruction.
    (Preferably with the personality but not the reputation).

    The only way to defeat this current movement with its mass hysteria, is the science debate must be permitted
    to return and, with it, demands to follow the data, statistical methods and historical records and outcomes instead of
    ‘opinions’ whether they be from 97% of a group especially selected by activists or 100%.

    The West is currently destroying itself based upon ‘opinions’, opinions based on failed computer programs
    and manipulated data, and enforced on the basis that we must destroy our nations based on ‘just in case’ reasoning
    to avoid ensuing prophecised warnings of global disasters that ‘might’ be true. Furthermore, with the cost of
    avoiding these hypothesised disasters requiring the redistribution of $trillions to maybe avoid something without any fact
    based cost assessment a century later is more delusional than ever. Even the activists must be laughing at the
    hysteria they have been able to drum up in what are supposed to be rational sentient beings of all levels of intelligence.

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