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Melting glacier in Alaska reveals ancient remains of forest – evidence of warm periods

Glaciers that tore trees in half and then froze the stumps are receding again in Alaska to reveal those old remnants of a warmer era. I like these little “concrete” anecdotes, though their true meaning depends on exactly how old these remains are, and whether that timing correlates with warming in other places.

Ancient trees emerge from frozen forest ‘tomb’

Retreat of the Mendenhall Glacier reveals the remains of trees which grew more than 2,000 years ago

The Mendenhall Glacier’s recession is unveiling the remains of ancient forests that have remained frozen beneath the ice for up to 2,350 years.

….

 

The most recent stumps she’s dated emerging from the Mendenhall are between 1,400 and 1,200 years old. The oldest she’s tested are around 2,350 years old. She’s also dated some at around 1,870 to 2,000 years old.

In Glacier Bay, Connor and other researchers have found evidence of ice advances occurring more than 5,000 years ago. They’ve also documented the glacial advance between 1724 and 1794 A.D. that pushed Huna Tlingit off their land, and written a paper incorporating those cultural and geographic histories. In that paper they cite Tlingit histories recorded by Richard and Nora Dauenhauer as saying that glacier was growing and advancing “faster than a running dog.”

Some of the ages of these trees suggest the Roman Warm Period may have occurred at the same time as an Alaskan Warm Period. Evidently, polar bears survived.)

These particular tree stumps are a bit too early to tie in with Medieval warm times in Europe.

Though, like other places, the glaciers started receding 200 years ago, long before man-made CO2 started to rise.

 

 

h/t Paul Homewood and Ice Age Now

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189 comments to Melting glacier in Alaska reveals ancient remains of forest – evidence of warm periods

  • #
    Kevin Lohse

    I see the trolls got here first, not to contest the presented evidence, just to indulge in a little snark. That’ll be a great comfort to the Greenpeace 30 when they hear of it.


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    • #

      Perhaps the Trolls will enjoy this great YouTube link involving a short dramatisation of The Downfall of the UN IPCC following their recent ‘failed’ and ‘doctored’ Summary for Policy Makers Report.

      HERE

      Trolls, please watch it and forward the link to all your friends. I’m hoping it goes viral.

      Cheers

      Mentat


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  • #

    This should disprove the Global Warming theory.


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    • #

      This should disprove the Global Warming theory.

      Perhaps — but it does prove the globe is warming again.

      Question is — why? Was it CO2????


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        AndyG55

        Maybe it shows that this particular part of Alaska may have warmed a bit.

        Says nothing about the whole globe, though.

        Remember the Mt Kilimanjaro snow loss. That was shown to be from local deforestation.


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          Bob Fernley-Jones

          Andy,
          I have a friend in Switzerland who has information on old silver mines and stuff emerging from retreating snow. Some other findings from old Norse settlements in South Greenland in warmer times, cherry blosssom records in Japan, stalagmite isotopes in South Africa also spring to mind, but are you interested to learn more?


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            AndyG55

            Yes, the evidence keeps mounting that over the past several hundred years we have been emerging from a rather cold period (called the Little Ice Age, amazingly enough)

            Lets just hope we haven’t reached the next small peak.


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          Chris Schoneveld

          “this particular part of Alaska may have warmed a bit”. Indeed the arctic has warmed since LIA more than any other part of the globe. Similarly one could say that this particular part of Alaska was warmer than other parts of the globe some 2000 years ago (hence not necessary a global event) or is that what you meant.


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        Backslider

        Question is — why? Was it CO2????

        No. Glaciers have been retreating in certain parts of the World long before CO2 could possibly be a factor.

        Geologists don’t get much say in the climate debate, yet they have the strongest evidence to disprove CO2 warming.


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          ianl8888


          Geologists don’t get much say in the climate debate, yet they have the strongest evidence to disprove CO2 warming

          Those two points are not unconnected


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          • #
            Backslider

            I was reading some alarmist crap somewhere the other day that was berating the opinions of an eminent scientist (Australian) because he was “only a geologist, not a climate scientist”.


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            • #
              King Geo

              Trust me – listen to the geos. Like myself they have been berating the “Theory of AGW” right from the start – anybody who has studied geology will immediately view the “Theory of AGW” as complete rubbish – the theory is completely floored and even to this day we have the new ALP leader, Bill Shorten, proclaiming that this theory is real – maybe he should be referred to as “Bull Shitter” (thanks for that alias name Ken). Bull’s backing of the Carbon Tax as core policy clearly demonstrates that he doesn’t realize that the majority of Aussies are now AGW skeptics, ie they have noticed the lack of GW in the past 15 years, and want the CT terminated – as said by many it is a “tax on nothing” and is a needless burden on the Oz Economy by driving up the cost of electricity – given Oz’s “vast natural gas reserves” this is a total travesty. Fortunately for Oz the incoming Abbott Govt is addressing this problem. It seems the good news is that the CT will be terminated post July 1 2014.


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            • #
              Allen Ford

              he was “only a geologist, not a climate scientist”.

              Anyone making such a stoopid comment like that understands neither geology nor climate. Study of the effects of climate on geological evidence is the geologist’s stock in trade. That geologists have been systematically ignored in this whole debate is proof positive that the whole climate thingo is phony from start to finish.


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              Andrew

              And rightly so – only a proper mammalologist is qualified to opine on the climate!


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            • #

              Depends on the degree, I think. If it’s paleoclimatology, or glacial geology, then you can get a shining star like Marcott. It’s not the degree, its the message. And in Marcott’s case, the school–a vast wasteland of politically correct environmental scholars who worship the ground the IPCC walks on. We have had many shiny stars with the cutest theories coming from schools in Oregon.


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            Backslider

            That’s because global warming has cause more water vapor which has led to more snow being dumped at the top of the glacier… don’t let them fool you, just ask Bilbo!


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        Manfred

        You actually have to ask….?
        sarc/


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        Geoffrey Cousens

        Obviously,it was certainly not co2.


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      unbolt

      Some of the ages of these trees suggest the Roman Warm Period may have occurred at the same time as an Alaskan Warm Period. Evidently, polar bears survived.)

      I have read the original article and it doesn’t say that anywhere. On what do you base this conclusion?


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        Backslider

        On what do you base this conclusion?

        Try grade school maths sonny.


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        Why does one need to ask the question. How old are the oldest trees mentioned in the article? How long ago was the period known as the Roman Climate Optimum? A simple google would find the answers. Or one can look back to their own notes.

        But for your future reference a great chart was presented to the EPA by Dr. Scaffetta in 2009. Presentation Slides (PDF)
        There are 76 slide but slide number 26 give a very good view of temperatures in past times.

        But to make it easy for you. I have the slides as jpg files. scafetta-epa-2009-26.jpg

        I was led to this link from following up on who Dr. Scaffetta is. I was inspired by the article a few days back. Does Dr Scaffetta show any who swallow IPCC AGW doctrine are truly dumber than a bag of hammers. Only to those who are not in the bag.

        How does on make easy to reference jpg files to page images.
        A very handy text command converts PDF to pages. Oh it’s a linux command. go script.
        gs -q -dQUIET -dSAFER -dBATCH -dNOPAUSE -dNOPROMPT -dMaxBitmap=500000000 -dAlignToPixels=0 -dGridFitTT=2 -sDEVICE=jpeg -dTextAlphaBits=4 -dGraphicsAlphaBits=4 -r150 -sOutputFile=scafetta-epa-2009-%d.jpg scafetta-epa-2009.pdf

        One can also use the simple image magick convert xyz.pdf to xyz.jpg but in the current fedora linux I am using the text is pixelated.


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        • #

          Whoa! I almost panicked there Thomas. I thought my government had reopened because I could actually access the pdf! I had to do a quick search of news to be sure it was still shut down. :) Now that I’m done hyperventilating, it’s a very interesting presentation that answers a lot of questions on the paleo periods and climate. Thanks very much for posting the link. I will also look up Dr. Scaffetta.


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      Safetyguy66

      I love your youthful optimism, but time has shown it takes a lot more than silly old observational evidence to even attract the attention of those who only see through one eye.


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    Bruce

    Yeah, they also found evidence of crocodiles in Alaska.


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      blackadderthe4th

      ‘Yeah, they also found evidence of crocodiles in Alaska.’ well that’s not a surprise, seen as when the Earth went through a hothouse period the Arctic was a tropical zone.


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      Bruce: The usual warmist response I get to statements like yours is: “Well, there were no people then” Since there were no humans then the automatic jump-to conclusion of warmists is that humans could not have survived then. Completely erroneous thought line–the absence of humans on the planets history does not indicate they could not survive, but rather they had not get come into existence. No one knows if humans could have survived–that’s a great little plot line for Science fiction, but has nothing to do with real science.


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  • #
    jon

    In Norway the glaciers where mostly melted down 8.000 years ago and reestablished around 5.000 years ago(Holocene optimum). In other Words we have been on a path towards the next iceage the last 5.000 years.


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  • #
    Peter Miller

    At Sue, Grabbit & Runne, we represent the interests of the Global Warming Industry.

    We require you to desist in all further attempts to suggest our client’s analysis, that it has never been warmer than today, is wrong.

    It is self-evident that forests cannot grow underneath glaciers, likewise it is self-evident that our client is correct in stating it has never been warmer than today.

    The consequences for not heeding this warning could be severe, as you could seen find yourself living under a wind turbine.


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    PeterS

    As expected some runaway AGW crackpots are claiming this is proof that man is at fault for the warming over the past 100 or so years. Of course such discoveries of old trees in Alaska (and many other things such as dinosaur bones) are simply indications of climate variability over long periods, not the cause. Their logic is akin to saying a murder has blue eyes therefore all blue eyed people are murderers. Such false logic is tantamount to telling fibs, and indeed it should be considered as such by the logical, thinking and intelligent people.


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  • #

    They haven’t quite censured all history and languages in Sweden…

    A bit south of Kiruna, next to Saltaluokta, there is the lake Pietsjaure, which in lapish means the pine lake. There are no pines there now, as the climate has become much colder in the last few thousand years. I find it amazing that the language can preserve such information for such a long time.

    http://www.pietsjaure.se/engindexreal.htm

    http://www.engelbert.se/sveri312.htm

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Laitaure%2C_Aktse%2C_Rapadalen%2C_Skierfe.jpg/1280px-Laitaure%2C_Aktse%2C_Rapadalen%2C_Skierfe.jpg

    If you look at the second and third links, you see Aktse. My wife and I went walking there. There are so many mosquitoes that they will cover your hand if you don’t put on some local mosquito oil + tar mixture.


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    • #
      KinkyKeith

      A truly beautiful area Erik, regardless of the age of the trees :)

      Here in Newcastle, Australia, we used to have bad swarms of Mosquitoes fifty years ago.

      I notice you use mosquito oil and tar mixture on your skin.

      We got rid of them by covering the water in the swampy breeding grounds with a thin film of kerosene.

      Very few mozzies now.

      KK


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  • #
    Neville

    During the Holocene optimum trees grew up to the arctic coastline where today there is just ice and tundra.
    Also Hippos swam in Rhine and Thames during the much warmer Eemian IG about 130,000 years ago.
    There is nothing unprecedented or unusual about the slight warming over the last 150 years at all.


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    BilB

    Most likely both are happening. Human influence well and truly preceeds 200 years with slash and burn land clearing, not that that is particularly relevent.

    There is always change, the real issue is rate of change.

    “The glacier has also receded 1.75 miles (2.82 km) since 1958, when Mendenhall Lake was created, and over 2.5 miles (4.0 km) since 1500. The end of the glacier currently has a negative glacier mass balance and will continue to retreat in the foreseeable future.[3]

    Given that average yearly temperatures are currently increasing, and the outlook is for this trend to continue, it is actually possible that the glacier might experience a period of stabilization or slight advance during its retreating march. This is because increasing amounts of warm, moist air will be carried up to the head of the icefield, where colder ambient temperatures will cause it to precipitate as snow. The increased amount of snow will feed the icefield, possibly enough to offset the continually increasing melting experienced at the glacier’s terminus. However, this interesting phenomenon will fade away if temperatures continue to climb, since the head of the glacier will no longer have cold enough ambient temperatures to cause snow to precipitate.”

    According to this extract the retreat rate of change has accelerated from under 1 kilometer per century to over 10 kilometers per century. So yes there was evidence of warming, now there is evidence of very rapid warming (heating).

    The biosphere requires time to adapt to change. The problem we face is that the pace of change is likely to outstrip even human ability to adapt, as a civilisation.


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    • #
      Backslider

      Why are you posting here when you have not bother to answer in two other threads?

      The problem we face is that the pace of change is likely to outstrip even human ability to adapt, as a civilisation.

      Tommy rot. Just look at the pace of change for other warm/cool periods. The planet is now in a cooling phase, not warming.


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      • #
        BilB

        Backslider,

        a) I was thinking much the same of you.

        b) The source of your confusion is becoming clear. You have become adept at flicking from one geological time period to another as though they were your summer vacations. No wonder you have lost track of what is rapid and what is not.


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          Backslider

          No wonder you have lost track of what is rapid and what is not.

          No sonny, its actually quite intriguing how you yourself have lost touch with reality.

          We are in the Holocene – that is exactly what we should be looking at.

          And what do we see? We see that we have just pipped up a little from the coldest times in the whole period.


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      Backslider

      I agree totally we have had a global temperature increase in the 20thC – but an increase from what? ..Probably an increase from the lowest point in the last 10,000 years.

      We started to observe meteorology at the coldest point in the last 10,000 years.

      Jørgen Peder Steffensen – Associate Professor at the University of Copenhagen


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      Safetyguy66

      “The biosphere requires time to adapt to change. The problem we face is that the pace of change is likely to outstrip even human ability to adapt, as a civilisation.”

      Lol why do you hate humans so much? You are one!

      Revel in the fact that we are so awesome, enjoy our abilities. The climate will not even test us. We have space to look forward to yet and your great, great, great, great grand children will look out the windows from Mars and say “what was all that crap about CO2 back in the day, damn adults can be dumb”

      Stop being such a woos…


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      • #
        BilB

        You are so correct, we are an awsome phenomenon, humans.

        But we are in plague proportions and as with all plagues, they die of very rapidly when they outstrip their resource base.


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        • #
          Heywood

          So the answer is to force people to fit Solar PV to their houses?

          Do you, by chance, sell Solar PV systems?


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          Safetyguy66

          Wrong again, we are not in any way over populated. In fact many studies have shown that the poorest countries in the world are in that state due to a dramatic lack of population density. You need a population to exploit resources, develop technology and taxes which in turn fund social welfare policies and improved lifestyles.

          The list – http://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/populations/ctydensityh.htm

          Its not until you get to number 20 that you encounter a 3rd world country (Rwanda) and they are mostly in the crap they are in through political turmoil, tribal strife and leadership corruption. By far the majority of the worlds most densely populated nations are also the richest with most well off people.

          The flawed eco logic of eugenics (which drives most green thinking) is just that, flawed. You assume more people equals bad for people without even researching the topic to discover if the numbers fit the theory. Its a dinner party favorite for me.

          Let me tell you what you really mean. You really mean the world could do with less people because you feel threatened by the rise of the brown men in developing nations. You are fine with more white Australians, just not with more brown people in Asia. You want to ensure your children’s future by following a flawed premise of talking down development in developing countries. What you actually are is less of an environmentalist and more of a poorly informed racist with eugenicist tendencies. But your not alone, there seem to be a lot of you popping up lately.

          Take my advice, have the courage of your own convictions and start your population reduction program at home, just wait till your family is asleep and Bobs your Uncle, you can start realising your dream of less people without ever leaving your house.


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          Mark D.

          But we are in plague proportions

          Where does one get the indoctrination to believe this cra p?

          On top of harboring such psychopathic ideations, you have gone and produced children of your own?

          Twisted just miserably twisted.


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          • #
            Rereke Whakaaro

            Not many people know this, but I have a talking fish.

            The trouble is, that the fish is not very well informed, living under water and all, so it tends to make things up.

            This is why I get so many people asking me, how can you believe this carp?


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          Backslider

          But we are in plague proportions and as with all plague

          Oh… David Suzuki’s long lost brother…. yes Bilbo, you are indeed a maggot.


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            AndyG55

            He is plague of one.

            Spreading his ignorance far and wide, for all to see !

            They truly used maximum pressure when they brain-washed this one… and left NOTHING behind.


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          Streetcred

          No BilB, you and your like minded mates are the “plague” … feel free to exterminate yourselves but leave the rest of us reasonable thinking members of the human race alone.

          Tell me, as an outsider, what do you REALLY think of the Human Race ?


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      AndyG55

      Yes.. ignorant children like you are often V E R Y S L O W at everything.

      How will you adapt when your mummy throws you out of the basement ?


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      Safetyguy66

      You know you got me thinking, thanks for that.

      I always wonder why so many people are obsessed with scenarios for the end of life on earth. I have my ideas on why that is, but that can form the basis of another rant. For now I just want explain my thoughts on the likelihood of mass extinction in 1-5 generations or less (and lets face it most AGWs believe its going to be a lot more “violent” than that) as compared to other similar scenarios man has faced.

      This afternoon I developed what I am calling “Dr Dooms Razor” its like Occam’s Razor except its for people fascinated with the end of life as we know it.
      It goes a little something like this.

      “There is an inversely proportional relationship between the accuracy of a doom hypothesis and the outcome observed at the time of its predicted culmination.”

      Now Im sure someone among this learned group can beautify that proposition as I am a to a wordsmith what Kevin Rudd was to finishing off a speech, too wordy.

      However lets put my theory to the test using a few examples from recent enough history that there shouldn’t be much of a debate over whether they actually happened or not and what the outcomes were.

      Its important to remember that at the time of these events, the hysteria around “end of days” scenarios was palpable, people really and sincerely believed in great numbers, perhaps greater than those who passionately believe we are about to cook the planet today, that we were DOOOOOMED! Dooooooomed I tells ya laddy!

      1. Y2K
      Media and “expert” predictions: Planes falling out of the sky, stock market collapse, food shortages, banking crisis, life support machines failing…. the works… the full disaster biscuit with extra doom chips. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xWNm_w8uVg

      And the reality: Well we all know the answer to that, in a word “fizzer”.

      2. AIDS
      Media and “expert” predictions: End of life as we know it basically, put your head between your legs and etc….. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U219eUIZ7Qo

      And the reality: Its a nasty disease, no doubt about it. But in terms of biological threats to our species that we know of, its not the worst nature has thrown at us. Save yourself some reading and go to page 14 for the graphs http://www.popcouncil.org/pdfs/wp/pgy/016.pdf

      Summary we have it under control basically. Its now a problem of poverty, education and religious interference that is causing the countries in the world who can least afford the distraction and diversion of resources to suffer from it the most.

      Pretty similar to what’s happening to developing countries from things like the World Bank refusing to fund coal power stations, you know about that right? No biggy though, the ones that don’t die from smoke inhalation from indoor cooking fires can perish from aids due to the policies of the same group of your like minded folk in the UN, gotta love that population control in action, I must have made your day with that info.

      http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-17/world-bank-to-stop-funding-coal-fired-power-stations-in-develop/4826928

      http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs292/

      3. Bird Flu and H1N1
      Media and “expert” predictions: You know the drill, prepare to die!

      http://www.theage.com.au/national/worstcase-scenario-is-6000-swine-flu-deaths-roxon-20090716-dlyq.html

      And the reality:

      http://kff.org/global-indicator/avian-flu-deaths/

      http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/updates/072409.htm

      4. Global Terrorism
      Media and “expert” predictions: You are no longer safe in your own home. We have all seen it, Im not even putting up links. Go to an airport and try and eat a steak with a plastic knife and fork and tell me we didn’t scare ourselves just a teeny, tiny bit too much perhaps?

      And the reality: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/wrjp255a.html

      I didn’t add up the column, but its appeared to be around 4000 total deaths from terrorism on US soil since… um 1865 your Honour….

      Meanwhile back in the real world: http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html and you don’t hear nearly as much about those numbers. I don’t see Obama deploying the National Guard to suicide treatment centres to “pratek the Mericaan peepul”

      5. Lets discuss the Elephant in the room AGW

      Briefly, because while the jury may be out in the minds of some, the predictions are flying thick and fast. They show 2 distinct features, firstly they are remarkably similar to the shrill nature of the predictions made about the other examples and secondly they are feeding nicely into Dr Dooms Razor by edging further and further out on the thin branches of the tree of nonsense in terms of their likelihood of coming to pass.

      If of course history is any guide in this case.

      So lets look at a couple of examples that we can already see nicely fit Dr Dooms Razor.

      Prediction:
      Tim Flannery, ABC Lateline, June 10, 2005:
      I’M afraid that the science around climate change is firming up fairly quickly . . . we’ve seen just drought, drought, drought, and particularly regions like Sydney and the Warragamba catchment—if you look at the Warragamba catchment figures, since 98 the water has been in virtual freefall, and they’ve got about two years of supply left . . .
      Maxine McKew: But. . . we won’t see a return to more normal patterns?
      Flannery: . . . they do seem to be of a permanent nature. I don’t think it’s just a cycle. I’d love to be wrong, but I think the science is pointing in the other direction.
      McKew: So does that mean, really, we’re faced with—if that’s right—back-to-back droughts and continuing thirsty cities?
      Flannery: That’s right.

      http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/an_excuse_from_flannery_for_his_dud_prediction/

      And the reality:
      http://www.thechronicle.com.au/photos/toowoomba-flooding-101/5432/

      Prediction:

      According to Dr David Viner (March 2000), a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia,within a few years winter snowfall will become “a very rare and exciting event”.

      “Children just aren’t going to know what snow is,” he said.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/snowfalls-are-now-just-a-thing-of-the-past-724017.html

      And the reality:

      http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/436170/Worst-winter-for-decades-Record-breaking-snow-predicted-for-November

      In summary, we both know I could fill pages with similar predictions. My point is basically when your considering your next doom hypothesis (because in your lifetime there will be several more after AGW gets boring) apply Dr Doom’s Razor, the more shrill the predictions of global catastrophe, the less likely they are to be correct my friend. Life just isn’t that exciting sadly.

      So open your mind. Realise there is more going on here than a simple premise of CO2 being on the verge of destroying the planet and understand it is a complex, political, social and even at times scientific issue with nuances ranging into shades of grey we don’t yet have the display capabilities to illustrate on your screen.

      http://youtu.be/MDCCvOv3qZY


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      You seriously think a society that went from horse drawn buggies to landing on the moon in less than a century is going to have trouble adapting to climate change? Humans have everything it takes to survive, if they are just willing to use it. If they give in to the alarmists and persist in using antiquated technology that now is “updated” and produces as much CO2 in manufacturing, transporting and installing as all other vilified technologies, we may suffer. If allowed to use the resources at hand, one supposes humans will thrive. All except the warmists, who need fear to sell the idea we should worry about adapting.


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    In response to BilB:

    “Given that average yearly temperatures are currently increasing, and the outlook is for this trend to continue” – Globally the last 16 years has shown no such trend. There may be local trends due to local factors changing, but this is not a global phenomenon.

    “The problem we face is that the pace of change is likely to outstrip even human ability to adapt, as a civilisation.” What evidence do you have for such a prediction?


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    Yonniestone

    Seeing the absence of warmist trolls I would like to toss in a theory on this discovery.
    It was Roman Big Oil who placed those trees there, here’s a YouTube video of Richard Alley explaining.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SUokMcF1OU


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      Heywood

      Geez Yonniestone,

      “here’s a YouTube video of Richard Alley explaining”

      Are you really Blackadderthe4th masquerading as a skeptic?? :)


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        crakar24

        So the retreating glacier was caused by roman big oil production? Well can you tell me what caused this?

        http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm

        I was thinking we could create an addendum to the one of the 4 laws of thermo dynamics or maybe create our own laws to describe how the AGW heat that developed the “death spiral” of the Arctic has now suddenly moved and is now hovering over randomly selected glaciers.

        Last week it was hovering over Sydney, next week it could come to a town near you, who knows where or when this AGW heat will appear next.


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          Heywood

          “who knows where or when this AGW heat will appear next.”

          In the mean time, it hides deep deep DEEP in the oceans, where it can’t be found, waiting to attack a poor unsuspecting city with a (gasp) hot day!!!


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          Yonniestone

          crakar24 it’s difficult to get into warmist troll mode without repeated head trauma or long term exposure to heavy metals but here goes.
          The Romans at this point knew they were onto a good thing with their development of evil capitalism and thinking they were going to rule forever wanted to stop any attempts in the future to undermine their power.
          So using their best minds came up with an idea of travelling to strategic places in the world where they would place false evidence so as to confuse any correct scientific analysis in the future that would cast doubt on their insistence of using oil based products and exploration.
          This grand scheme was of course created by Biggus Oilrggicus who was the head of ENI roman oil company which translates in Latin, EN = LOOK! and I = I (found oil) with the “found oil” part omitted as not to arouse any interest in their operations.
          Evidence of this scheme globally can be seen, or will be soon, at,

          - Pompei’s destruction caused by ENI testing an early form of fracking on Mount Vesuvius, a big cover up there.
          - The Hadrian and Antonine walls were constructed to keep Caledonian and Brit green barbarians from disrupting ENI oil exploration of southern Scotland.
          - The Machu Picchu water system was built earlier by ENI as they discovered oil there and engineered a way of transporting it to sea level.
          - ENI drilled at Vostok and upon striking oil corrupted any future ice core samples, this is explained in detail by Richard Alley in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drillralleyiceholeFU


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            crakar24

            Ah so that explains the disappearance of Atlantis, Atlantis of course being the major sea port for oil transportation (destroyed to hide the facts as you suggest).

            It also gives a better explaination as to the true reason behind the crusades and Romes quest for world domination, world currency and the removal of the current leader of a country with a puppet more friendly to Roman ideas.

            All we need to do now is figure out what role the Knights Templar played and it will be ready for publication.

            Cheers


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            • #

              …..what role the Knights Templar played

              I always loved the car he drove, a Volvo P1800.

              Uh, wait a minute, sorry, that was Simon Templar!

              Tony.


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              Dave

              The Knights Templar started to rebuild the ENI briefly in 1130 AD as the MWP after this shocking fellow below ruined it.

              Attila The Gore forced the closure of all ENI activities in Europe in the early 450′s AD by using massive numbers of human mounted bio-fuel transporters, that closed down the Roman Warming period full stop.

              Attila The Gore still has progeny today on earth, and will come back as a pirate saviour of GAIA.

              When are you guys going to publish? Can I order a copy, as I wish to donate it to the new Flannery Climate Commission library.


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        • #

          We could use some of that heat. An early snowstorm struck, dropping 18 inches of heavy, wet snow, and took down hundreds and hundreds of trees in town. It was pretty amazing. South Dakota could use some, too. Ranchers lost 100′s of cattle in the 4 feet of snow that fell there. Do you think we can figure out a way to direct the heat? Then it would be useful! :)


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        Yonniestone

        Of all the things I’ve been called that’s about the most insulting :)
        Would a warmist have such a wry sense of humor?


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    BilB

    “Globally the last 16 years has shown no such trend”

    You are one of a small band of people who actually believe this, Derek. The comment you are challenging was a quote from Wikipaedia, they weren’t my words. The previous thread was about a bet over the rate of increase, not that it was happening or not.

    There quite a few lost cities and regions were climate variability has, in history, forced people to abandon every thing that they have built. I don’t need to go into that chapter and verse.


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    • #
      Backslider

      The comment you are challenging was a quote from Wikipaedia

      LMAO!!! How DARE we challenge something as prestigious as Wikipedia????

      You do know that ANYBODY can edit Wikipedia pages, don’t you?


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        PeterS

        Yes, Wikipedia is sort of peer-reviewed; sometimes by bigots and confused people – certainly not always scientific nor factual. I prefer to do my own research.


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    • #
      Rob Taylor

      Alaska has seen declining temperatures over the last decade or so. It used to be the “canary in the coal mine” until the coal mine died and the canary kept singing.
      http://www.livescience.com/25907-alaska-climate-pdo.html


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      Heywood

      “You are one of a small band of people who actually believe this, Derek”

      Oh.. A small band of people like the UK Met?

      “The recent pause in warming – July 2013 – Global mean surface temperatures rose rapidly from the 1970s, but have been relatively flat over the most recent 15 years to 2013″

      Or Professor Phil Jones?

      “Do you agree that from 1995 to the present there has been no statistically-significant global warming?
      Yes, but only just. I also calculated the trend for the period 1995 to 2009. This trend (0.12C per decade) is positive, but not significant at the 95% significance level.”

      Or the head of the IPCC?

      “THE UN’s climate change chief, Rajendra Pachauri, has acknowledged a 17-year pause in global temperature rises, confirmed recently by Britain’s Met Office, but said it would need to last “30 to 40 years at least” to break the long-term global warming trend. “

      Or we can just look at the data.


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        Reinder van Til

        Long term global warming trend? Between 1940 and 1980 temperatures also dropped slightly. From 1980 till 1998 there is an increase in global temperatures. Since 1998 we are in a pauze. Why is 18 years significant and 40 plus 15 years is 55 years not?


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        BilB

        What I suspect is going on here is that a focus on air temperatures does not equate to a pause in global warming.

        There are 2 mechanisms at play here. one is the increase in atmospheric moisture content. This has the effect of suppressing temperature rise as the atmospheric energy content continues to increase stored in the moisture.

        The second is that the increased moisture dramtically increases air circulation, and rainfall. This increased circulation pushes huge amounts of cold air away from the poles and it is that extra body of cold air that affects average temperature measurements. We are seeing this mechanism in the huge out of season weather events across Asia, Europe, and America. The southern Hemisphere misses out on this as there is little populated land near the southern polar region so the drama occurs out to sea.

        The increased atmosheric moisture super charges storms as the latent heat of condensation transfers its energy to the carrying air causing it to expand and rise more rapidly and in greater volume. More moisture, more energetic vertical air movements.

        The so called cooling is called the freezer door syndrome. Open the freezer door on a warm day and the cold flow of air falling out of the freezer cools the general body of air and it could be argued that “things are cooling down”, when in effect what has happened is that energy has transfered from the kitchen to the freezer compartment, and things are actually, overall, heating up.

        From a complete system point of view, Earth’s surface environment is heating at an accelerating rate while various parts of that system are performing in various ways as various physical phenomena play out.

        The wiki quote on the glacier talks of a phenomenon where wwarming creates a phase of stability as surrounding moist air feeds the glacier for a time making it appear to reform.

        Same thing with air “temperatures” versus atmospheric energy content.


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          crakar24

          What i “suspect” is that you just made that crap up


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          Rob Taylor

          Whaaaa! I’m crying from laughing so hard. BilB’s doing what is nicely termed as a buttpluck. The same temperature records that “proved” global warming 5-10 years ago are not to be believed now. The model outputs that “proved” global warming 5-10 years ago are incorrect because cold air is flowing out from the Antarctic? And here I was about to put the blame squarely on UFOs and visitors from the Andromeda galaxy. Check the records BilB: no change in Antarctic temperatures for about 30 years. Highest sea ice extent on record. Some crackpots have just blamed Angolan heat on the ozone hole. Perhaps you might want to incorporate that into your next dissertation. Don’ t let it stop you. How about ocean heat content which amounts to 0.06 degrees as if that can even be measured. Keep drinking the Kool-aid. You need to stick with the Huffington Post if you want to try to justify your assertions. At least here, your comments will be tolerated by most: not me.


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          Heywood

          Another set of goal posts on wheels.

          BilB-o said “Given that average yearly temperatures are currently increasing, and the outlook is for this trend to continue” – Average yearly temperatures, often used by alarmist media to scare the kiddies, are a measure of the average atmospheric temperature of the earth, based on the particular dataset that shows the scariest temperature rise at the time. Usually the are expressed as decadal average figures ie. 2000-2009 is warmer than 1990-1999 etc…

          Derek responded “Globally the last 16 years has shown no such trend”. As we are talking atmospheric temperatures, particularly average yearly temperatures (as BilB-o first suggested), what Derek stated is more or less correct. In a nearly all of the global data sets, particulalrly the ones with the least about of ‘adjustments’, there has been no statistically significant warming since around 1997.

          BilB-o then counters “You are one of a small band of people who actually believe this, Derek”. Actually many scientists, including non-sceptics acknowledge this point. I included a couple of examples in my post.

          Now BilB-o shifts the focus away from atmospheric temperatures, and the lack of warming over the last decade and a half or so, and discusses moisture content in the atmosphere and air circulation in claiming no pause.

          So the conversation started with discussing average yearly temperatures, and morphed into humidity.

          As I said, goalpost on wheels.


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          • #
            BilB

            What I said was that temperature is not the defining criteria for whether the is global warming or not. Atmospheric energy content is, as this includes the latent heat of condensation which is a form of stored energy as far as the air is concerned and is not included in the temperature measurement.


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              crakar24

              There is so much crap here BiiB, firstly energy is energy W/m2, joules, heat its all the same, can you tell me the difference between heat and temperature?

              Quick and dirty

              tem·per·a·ture
              /ˈtemp(ə)rəCHər/Noun
              1.The degree or intensity of heat present in a substance or object, esp. as expressed according to a comparative scale and shown by a…
              2.The degree of internal heat of a person’s body: “I’ll take her temperature”.

              In other words temperature is a man made construct that measure the motion of atoms and molecules the faster they move the more heat they expel which of course we measure as temperature.

              Ergo latent heat is temperature, care to disagree?


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              Streetcred

              … and it’s not “atmospheric energy”, it’s total energy. Now, do you remember Conservation of Energy, “Energy is neither created nor destroyed, it is changed from one form to another.” For your edification and delight, as much as I hate Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy


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            • #
              Bob Fernley-Jones

              bilb,
              Did you know that according to Kevin Trenberth and the IPCC, evapotranspiration results in 46% of the heat loss from the surface?


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        • #
          Heywood

          …also interested for your evidence to the claim “Earth’s surface environment is heating at an accelerating rate”.

          Seems to indicate runaway warming. Is that what you mean?


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          • #
            BilB

            Acceleration is relative. It is nowhere near runaway, but any such change has to be of concern.

            What is runaway is our consumption of fossil fuels, resources, and land.


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              ExWarmist

              And here seems to be your real concern.

              Resource depletion by overpopulation (with CAGW tacked on top) – your not a disciple of Paul Ehrlich are you?

              You do realise that Malthus has had almost 200 years of being wrong? – i.e. Food supply has kept up with the population.

              You do realise that Humans are not yeast? – i.e. ar capable to thinking for themselves and adjusting their behaviour when they have the opportunity to do so.

              Here’s something to fry your noodle – the solution to over population is economic development. Parents in developed states naturally limit the number of children that they have – because they can and it makes economic sense to do so.

              Acquaint yourself with the population S curve which humanity is following as it brings the worlds population out of subsistence economies and into modern economies.


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                Maverick

                I love it:

                Humans a not yeast


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                Safetyguy66

                “You do realise that Malthus has had almost 200 years of being wrong”

                An extremely astute observation. Malthusian rationalisms have guided the modern environmental movement from the start. They are incorrectly associated with the “left” of politics when they are the precise opposite, they are extreme conservatives.


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                Backslider

                You do realise that Humans are not yeast?

                Of course not! They are maggots…. just ask daddy Suzuki.


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              AndyG55

              “i.e. are capable to thinking for themselves”

              Bilbo provides a very strong case against that argument. !

              “adjusting their behaviour when they have the opportunity to do so”

              In his case, I also doubt this very much.
              .
              .
              Seriously EX, you seem to be asking his to actually LEARN something.

              He has shown zero propensity for that sort of activity.

              So, please don’t expect too much of him.


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              • #
                ExWarmist

                Well AndyG55 – being capable of, and doing are two separate things…

                I also used to be a warmist who believed that overpopulation and resource depletion were real threats.

                So faith (a capacity to act in spite of doubt) remains that BilB can learn.


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                AndyG55

                But Ex.. you had logic and common sense to build on.

                Once the facts became clear to you, you responded appropriately.

                Sorry, but I don’t hold much hope in his case.


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              • #
                AndyG55

                ps..

                I was once a member of the Wilderness Society,

                and helped out at CAN (Climate Action Newcastle) gatherings.
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                Then I woke up to reality.


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            • #

              “What is runaway is our consumption of fossil fuels, resources, and land.” Ok Bilbo lets just be silly for a second and say that you are correct. Tell us what your POLITICAL solution is to this pressing problem. Be honest now.


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            • #
              Streetcred

              Are you Ehrlich’s illegitimate love child ?


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              • #
                Snafu

                Ah yes, Paul Ehrlich. Some of his quotes from the 1970′s….most probably long before Bilby was born.

                —-

                By…[1975] some experts feel that food shortages will have escalated the present level of world hunger and starvation into famines of unbelievable proportions. Other experts, more optimistic, think the ultimate food-population collision will not occur until the decade of the 1980s.

                —-

                Population will inevitably and completely outstrip whatever small increases in food supplies we make. The death rate will increase until at least 100-200 million people per year will be starving to death during the next ten years.

                —-

                Air pollution…is certainly going to take hundreds of thousands of lives in the next few years alone.

                —-

                Giving society cheap, abundant energy would be the equivalent of giving an idiot child a machine gun.

                —-

                A massive campaign must be launched to de-develop the United States. De-Development means bringing our economic system into line with the realities of ecology and the world resource situation.

                —-

                And you wonder why we are sceptic????

                Note to Bilby…….these quotes were said 43 years ago!


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              Safetyguy66

              Yeah its not like anyone is making more land right?

              http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/nasa-releases-images-of-new-island-formed-in-pakistan-earthquake-8849087.html

              Buy land Cleetus, they aint makin no more of it, hayuck.


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          Backslider

          one is the increase in atmospheric moisture content

          Sorry sonny, but the fact is that atmospheric moisture content is in decline. Look it up when the NOAA website is back online.

          You lost that silly argument sonny.


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          Dave

          BilB,

          Now that is a great hypothesis:

          The Bilby Freezer Door Hypothesis.

          Abstract:
          The so called cooling is called the freezer door syndrome. Open the freezer door on a warm day and the cold flow of air falling out of the freezer cools the general body of air and it could be argued that “things are cooling down”, when in effect what has happened is that energy has transfered from the kitchen to the freezer compartment, and things are actually, overall, heating up.

          Method:

          The Arctic is the freezer, The Antarctic is the fridge, and the rest is the kitchen. CO2 opens the arctic door (mechanism for fridge/freezer in Paper 2), and releases the cold into the kitchen, hence freezing NH winters. But at same time, it lets in hot air from the rest of the planet (kitchen) and starts melting. The CO2 opens up the giant heat bundle lurking deep down in the ocean (another paper later) and maintains the temperature of the rest of the planet (kitchen) as a result the temperature has been stable for 18 years. The CO2 automatic opener only operates if CO2 is above 390ppm (18th Law of Thermodynamics – CO2 openers) and then when it hits 450ppm the auto CO2 opener will open the Antarctic Fridge and then we’re all pharqued.

          Discussion:

          To prevent this eventually, we must all live in fours, in premade government provided dongas with a 3.5Kw solar panels as our only means of energy, and all coal fired turbines must be in idle situation ONLY, (they’re very good at that) that supplies 50% generation and 50% distribution, using it’s own CO2 Tax paper money for heating. Refer to Government Living Modules here. And there’s more, the 4 will also have included a 60% open recreation area FREE.

          There, problem solved.

          References:
          1. Wikipedia.
          2. Playschool Early Learning & overpopulation at kindies.
          3. BilB (expert designer and understander of power generation HERE & HERE & HERE for technical details)
          4. How can 30 famous people be wrong? (on human culling)

          Do I need a Sarc Tag??


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          bobl

          @BilB

          This is very similar to the “Heat is hiding in the deep oceans” crapola. To create water vapour one must expend energy, the temperature rise of the media through a phase change is very little, so water at any temperature has less energy than steam at the same temperature. But steam at a given temperature can transmit no more heat energy than water at that temperature in spite of the difference in energy.

          To maintain this argument of increased water flux resulting in wild weather one needs to account for all the energy losses. For example the heat of evaporation of gigatonnes more of Water, the energy involved in raising all that water to the troposphere, the losses in kinetic energy expenditure into the gravitational system from wind (pushing the air as you put it) and considerable IR to space from the top of storms. Losses from electrical discharges (added lightning) the losses due to the kinetic energy of rain hitting the planet, the Melting of ice (latent heat of melting) the list goes on. After all those losses there still needs to be enough energy left over to heat the atmosphere? You see you can’t have both, you can’t have the energy in the atmosphere as heat AND in the latent heat of evaporation and melted arctics at the same time – that violates energy conservation. This is a big problem, the Climate fraternity AND YOU neglect the losses and assume that radiant energy in must equal radiant energy out, but it just aint so …. Many other forms energy can take in this universe.

          In the ocean argument there seems to be this concept that say a degree of atmosphere warming can be converted to – 0.0005 degrees of ocean warming which can then reemerge later as 1 degree in the atmosphere again. This is tantamount to pushing heat against a thermal gradient, it’s disallowed by the laws of themodynamics. At Best an Ocean that is 0.0005 degrees warmer can heat the near atmosphere by 0.0005 degrees more than it used to. If Global warming heat is going into the ocean ( or equivalently latent heat of evaporation/melting ) then we can call it off and call it a Sceptics win, Global warming will never ever be a problem.

          Common sense isn’t very common these days


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          Geoffrey Cousens

          You[Bilbo]are full of it.And do stop stammering!


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    Safetyguy66

    Im not surprised. I stopped being surprised at what the world had to offer when I read this…

    http://cloudedleopard.org/default.aspx?link%3dabout_main

    A new species of Great Cat discovered in 2006… If you would have suggested that was possible in an environment like Borneo where David Attenborough has basically identified everything, people would have said you were a loon!

    Well some people just think they know it all dont they? No evidence required, they just happen to “know” about the history, present and future of EVERYTHING!

    Remember peak oil?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil (its ok to use Whackopedia for Whacky ideas isnt it?)

    Well now…..

    http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article42670.html

    Oil exploration, discovery and production has continued to defy doom theory for the better part of 40 years since the idea was mooted. As recently as a few days ago the IAEA stated in relation to US production….

    “With output of more than 10 million barrels per day for the last two quarters, its highest in decades, the nation is set to become the largest non OPEC liquids producer by the second quarter of 2014, overtaking Russia. And that’s not even counting biofuels and refinery gains.”

    Again if you suggested in the 1980s/90s that the USA would once again be a world leading oil producer, the greens and doom lovers would have laughed you out of the room.

    Well get this… we are HUMAN! We ROCK! and we made the assault rifle, so get over it. Evidence is king, emotive science is worthless and weak.


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      Manfred

      That is very nice SG66!!

      ….and this salutory observation from Simon Winchester’s novel “Atlantic”…..dedicted particularly to those prescient entrail gazers who see nothing but climate calamity and have no solution except the deafening unintelligence of primitivisation:

      Men might as well project a voyage to the Moon, as attempt to employ steam navigation against the stormy North Atlantic Ocean

      Dionysius Lardner, Irish scientific writer and lecturer, 1838


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      • #
        ExWarmist

        When people naturally lack the ability to innovate – they cannot imagine that other people can innovate.


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          Safetyguy66

          So true!

          At about 10 years old I remember telling my Dad some useless factoid. He replied “I knew that”, I said “really”, he said “yes mate, enever forget, just because something is new to you, doesnt make it new”.

          That same logic applies to so many things. If you spend your life dreaming about wearing an animal skin (are greenies allowed to wear animal skins?) and living in a cave, dont be surprised if your imagination has trouble stretching to topics where science and technology continue to provide innovative solutions to human social issues.


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            crakar24

            Yes as long as the animal is found dead in the forest if you find one dying you must sit and wait patiently until it does. Even then you must only partake in the skin all other remains must be left for nature to dispose of.

            Same goes for fruit, to pick directly from the tree would be considered murder, once again you must sit and wait patiently for the fruit to drop……….not sure how it works for root vegetables (i did not think this through when i started).


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    handjive

    And a warmer, carbon dioxide laden atmosphere climate is good for us how?

    Good News Everybody!
    From the canary in the coal mine
    With his farm solely given to crops — wheat, barley, canola, chickpeas, lentils, faba beans and vetch — Mr Schmidt said this year was going to be his best season on the family farm.
    “But what’s unusual about this season is that instead of just one crop being outstanding and the rest average, this year all the different crops look like they are doing really well,” he said.

    ACROSS the lush farmlands of South Australia, a once-in-a-generation crop is emerging.
    “This will be one of those years that will be talked about for a lifetime,” Mr Larwood said. “Importantly, the benefits will include helping to keep farmers on the land and feeding the world.”

    Meanwhile, north of the equator ….
    Canola acres may have been down in North Dakota this year, but good growing weather throughout the year are reported to have resulted in a “phenomenal” crop overall.

    And, who could forget those warming, acidic oceans from the quickest warming place on the planet:
    Booming Southeast pink returns fuel Alaska’s biggest salmon harvest ever


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    King Geo

    Good article and yet another nail in the coffin for Michael Mann’s (and his cohorts) discredited “Hockey Stick Temperature Graph” – yes the RWP & MWP were very real but not it seems for Dr Mann & Co. Have they conceded that their “Hockey Stick” is wrong? It seems they are “sticking” to their story – how can they sleep straight in bed at night? Do they have any integrity?


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  • #
    John F. Hultquist

    There are other interesting things under the northern lights**
    for instance:
    http://pubs.aina.ucalgary.ca/arctic/Arctic29-1-38.pdf
    Historical Aspects of the Northern Canadian Treeline,
    by Harvey Nichols

    “. . . northernmost dwarf spruces of the tundra and parts of the forest-tundra boundary may be relicts from times of prior warmth, . . “
    ————-

    **http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Poetry/ServiceCremation.htm


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  • #
    Neville

    Good post from Spencer and Christy showing the results of the hopeless climate models compared to UAH satellite and Had 4 temp records . Very good clear graph.

    http://www.drroyspencer.com/2013/10/maybe-that-ipcc-95-certainty-was-correct-after-all/


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  • #
    Louis Hissink

    The tree shown in the photo suggests it’s been violently decapitated. I saw similar remnant tree trunks in the Morwell brown coal open cut during 1975/6 during a uni excursion. I wonder if that observation was noted in the paper.


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    • #
      Safetyguy66

      Could an advancing glacier do that? I mean I know it seems totally possible and Ive seen the Ice Age movies so I know how fast glaciers can advance (thats a joke eco loons before you start quoting Toy Story for your next post). It just seems like it was more “sudden” looking at the stump. Nice observation matey.


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        Reinder van Til

        In The Netherlands ice was able to even move large rocks. When the ice was gone those rocks remained. A culture called the hunebedbouwers (hunebed builders) part of the trechterbeker culture used those stones to create their hunebedden (hunebeds which were graves):

        https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunebed

        Sorry, no translation from Dutch to English.


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        Louis Hissink

        No but a tsunami could quite easily. I doubt glaciers could move large rocks – those things flow by crystal creep or plastic flow, and hence the tree would have been slowly knocked over etc etc. Except no one has observed this process in situ, so one has to be careful when proposing various mechanisms, but sudden destruction seems the right mechanism so it’s interesting to locate this particular glacier geographically and have a look at Google Earth.


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          crakar24

          Louis,

          I thought it was obvious to all what has happened here. It is well known via wiki that there were a number of very large earth quakes around 400AD which produced a large amount of CO2 (note these were large earth quakes which we havent had many of recently so this co2 is not like what we have now)so all this co2 caused the MWP (noting the 800 year lag). This warmth (via increased co2) caused the glaciers to melt from the bottom up meaning they slide down the mountain at a tremendous rate knocking the trees over as they went.


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          Safetyguy66

          Wow another great thought, why not a tsunami? I mean if it was more oceanic than today, makes sense and the tree certainly looks like tress you see after that sort of event.


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          John Knowles

          There seem to be two stages at work here.
          1) the forest has been buried in silt and water-born gravels. (Many of the gravels have rounded surfaces where-as glacial moraine rocks are usually shattered sharp items). Many trees still have bark so they were covered moderately fast back around 600 AD.
          2) the section of tree above the gravel has been torn off in in down stream direction. This could have been by a significant depth (>20m) of snow starting to move down-slope. Even to-day some of these glacier see 20m of snowfall each winter and the last part of the Mendenhall is quite steep. Occasionally you see ice lakes breaching a barrier and flooding down a glacier, sweeping moraine rocks with them. One of the photos in the Juneau Empire article shows some large boulders in with the gravels which could have caused the damage seen in the photos.
          Given that other Juneau glaciers are revealing similar forests we seem to be looking at abrupt changes of climate in this region.


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    pat

    15 Oct: Bloomberg: Ewa Krukowska: EU Nations Agree To Seek Softer Law to Curb Car Emissions
    European Union governments agreed today to seek a revision of a draft law to curb emissions from cars, bowing to calls from Germany for more flexibility to protect the competitiveness of the domestic automobile industry…
    “The flexibility margin has to be narrow,” Valentinas Mazuronis, the environment minister of Lithuania, which holds the EU rotating presidency, said. “Results have to be achieved as soon as possible.”
    The decision was made after Germany built a coalition of countries supporting its plan to delay the start of the emission curbs. It proposed the law should be fully applicable to all new cars only in 2024, according to a document submitted by the government before the quarterly ministerial meeting and obtained by Bloomberg News.
    “It was made clear from all sides that we want an ambitious climate-protection goal and, at the same time, it was made clear that in some places more flexibility must be sought and can be found,” German Environment Minister Peter Altmaier told reporters after the meeting. “In this narrow room for maneuver, we will find a solution in the coming weeks.” …
    ***The EU is trying to reconcile its ambitions to lead the global fight against climate change with efforts to help the region’s economy recover from a recession…
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-14/eu-nations-agree-to-seek-softer-law-to-curb-car-emissions.html

    15 Oct: TheHindu: Nitin Sethi: Don’t add private investments to climate fund, says India
    The developed countries should not count private investments against the commitment of $100 billion annual fund for fighting climate change, India demanded, along with several other developing countries, at the recently meeting of select countries in Warsaw…
    The developed countries had promised to drum up an annual stream of 100 billion starting 2020. But poorer countries have been demanding a clear road map of how the developed countries will ratchet up their funding support…
    At the pre-COP, several countries expressed apprehensions about the difficulty of enhancing the volunteered emission reduction targets that were once approved by respective governments.
    Disagreements were also expressed by the developing countries, including India, against the idea of a ‘thin agreement’ in 2015, which has the backing of the U.S…
    ***The Polish presidency came under some criticism from the developing countries for bringing in industry representatives also to make presentations at the pre-COP meeting, an occasion that has been usually kept for government to government informal negotiations. The developing countries pointed out that only large corporate houses from the developed world found representation in the meeting.
    http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy-and-environment/funding-issue-dominates-warsaw-climate-meet/article5234109.ece

    Poland says will lead call for carbon cuts at Warsaw U.N. talks
    BRUSSELS, Oct 14 (Reuters) – Coal-dependent Poland said it would lead the call for all nations to deepen greenhouse emissions cuts when it hosts U.N. climate talks in Warsaw next month, in a surprise reversal of its previous stance…
    http://www.pointcarbon.com/news/reutersnews/1.2637628


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    pat

    13 Oct: Bloomberg: Sally Bakewell: Clean Energy Investment Headed for Second Annual Decline
    Clean-energy investment fell 14 percent in the third quarter from the prior three months as Europe curbed subsidies and cheaper U.S. natural gas lured investment.
    The $45.9 billion spent makes it “almost certain” that annual investment in renewables and energy-smart technologies will fall for the second consecutive year from $281 billion in 2012, Bloomberg New Energy Finance said in a statement.
    Investment in the quarter was 20 percent lower than the same period last year as spending in China, the U.S. and Europe fell. The U.S. saw the largest decline, sliding 41 percent to $5.5 billion, according to the London-based research company…
    “Governments accept that the world has a major problem with climate change but, for the moment, appear too engrossed in short-term domestic issues to take the decisive action needed,” Michael Liebreich, chief executive officer of Bloomberg New Energy Finance, said in the statement…
    A “crumb of comfort” is that installation of global solar photovoltaic capacity is set to reach a record this year, at about 36.7 gigawatts, BNEF said. A decline in the cost of the technology will reduce the overall amount invested in solar…
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-13/clean-energy-investment-headed-for-second-annual-decline.html

    13 Oct: Bloomberg: Ehren Goossens: Electric Car Rentals Stalled in U.S. by Range Anxiety
    In fact, people who drive off in electric vehicles from Enterprise Holdings Inc., the biggest U.S. auto renter, often bring them back to trade for a car that runs on gasoline….
    About 140,000 plug-in EVs are on U.S. roads, short of President Barack Obama’s goal for 1 million of the cars by 2015, data from the Electric Drive Transportation Association shows…
    Slow demand is the main reason the St. Louis-based company has 300 electric cars in its fleet, 40 percent below a target it set in 2010 when it ordered 500 of Nissan Motor Co.’s plug-in electric Leafs, Broughton said…
    Enterprise offers Tesla Model S cars in its Exotic Car Collection fleet for about $300 to $500 a day.
    That’s about 10 times the price of renting a Leaf, which Enterprise offers in Orlando, Florida, for about $55 a day, the same price as other compact or standard vehicles…
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-13/electric-car-rentals-stalled-in-u-s-by-range-anxiety.html


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      I want to point you here to just one thing pat quoted above:

      …..installation of global solar photovoltaic capacity is set to reach a record this year, at about 36.7 gigawatts…..

      Again note how they always quote the Nameplate Capacity here.

      That 36.7GW of Nameplate Capacity is the same as 18 Large scale (2000MW) coal fired power plants.

      That’s 18 of them.

      The total power delivered for actual consumption from all those solar panels is the same as could be delivered from 2.25 Large scale coal fired power plants.

      That’s 2.25 of them.

      Tony.


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        crakar24

        Tony can you be a bit more descriptive as i know a few people that would be “alarmed” by those figures

        Cheers


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          An average large scale coal fired power plant has a capacity of 2000MW, (2GW) so that 36.7GW of installed Capacity for solar PV panels equates to 18 large scale coal fired power plants.

          Solar PV has a current Capacity Factor of around 13%, and don’t be fooled where you read Solar PV can have a CF as high as the low 20%’s as that is theoretical only, and currently existing commercial Solar PV are actually delivering power at around 12.5% Capacity Factor, and that’s reality, not just my massaging of the figures to give a desired result, and if that’s the average, then some must be pretty low indeed, and in fact, some commercial solar PV plants are barely making 9% CF.

          So the Maths goes like this. NP X 24 X 365.25 X CF = Power Delivered for consumption. (where NP is Nameplate Capacity, 24 hours in a day, 365.25 days in a year, leap year included as the .25, and CF is Capacity Factor)

          So, we have 36.7 X 24 X 365.25 X 0.13 giving us power delivered of 41,822GWH

          Now, let’s go with the New technology Chinese USC plants currently actually running at a CF of 92.5%, not isolated, but now achieved over 6+ years they have been ramping up this technologies construction. This large scale coal fired plant will have 2 units running 1100MW generators, hence a Nameplate Capacity of 2200MW, or 2.2GW.

          So, here we have 2.2 X 24 X 365.25 X 0.925 = 17,838GWH.

          Divide 41822 by 17828 and the resultant comes in at 2.34.

          Well I was a tiny bit out I suppose, but I was pressing buttons on the fly.

          Two and a quarter, two and a third, hey, not much real difference.

          Frightening isn’t it?

          Then, on top of that, the solar PV plants have a projected lifespan of 25 years, and even that is sanguine, as it would be closer to 15 years, but hey, the end result is so absurd, even I’ll go with their 25 years.

          So let’s do the Math again, and here I’ll do best case scenario for solar PV, using their 25 years, and the fact that they will keep their 13% CF, which in fact dramatically diminishes after ten years and then after 15 years again. I’ll then use worst case scenario for coal fired power, and keep in mind here that means lowering the CF, as that up front total now at 92.5% is hard to maintain over the life of the plant, and it will drop, but still leave a lifetime CF around 87.5%.

          So now we have solar 41,822 X 25 years giving it a total power delivery of 1,045 TWH. Note now this is in TeraWattHours (TWH)

          For coal fired we have (from the one plant now as lifetime CF has dropped) 844TW.

          So, over the life of that 36.7GW of solar PV power, it will deliver the same power for consumption as 1.24 of those coal fired power plants.

          See how the further you go, it becomes even more frightening.

          Further to this, the Chinese soon hope to be able to run a generator of 1350MW attached to one unit. What this means is that one plant with two of these units will deliver the same power as all of those solar PV panels, the equivalent of 18 large scale coal fired plants. That’s lifetime ratio of 1:18

          Don’t even bother to mention the cost differential. This power delivery point should be the one thing which should have the most concentration placed on it.

          Tony.

          PostScript: I can see some people questioning that Chinese CF for their new plants at 92.5%. Here where I live at Rockhampton, we have the Stanwell power station close by. One of its units was turned on at the day of commissioning and ran flat out, (3000RPM) delivering its full power for 1073 consecutive days, almost three years. That’s a Capacity Factor of 100% for three years.


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    Greg Cavanagh

    I have a photo from the local paper that my mother cut out back in the 70′s.

    The local council dug a hole for a sewerage pump station. 30 feet down right smack in the middle of the hole was a big old tree stump. It was interesting enough that the called the local news paper. If you care to know where its location, it’s at the western end of Broadwater Ave West, Maroochydore.

    The significance of this is that the Maroochy River is about 140m away, and 30 feed down would place the tree about 25 feet below the water level.

    How old is the tree?
    And what caused the ocean to rise all those years ago?


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      Safetyguy66

      Maybe the Flintstones didnt power their cars with their feet? Could be they had secret diesel motors, I mean only we can change the climate right? So must have been evil humans somehow.


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      King Geo

      And here in WA we have good geological evidence that sea level was ~4m higher during the previous “Eemian Interglacial” (130Ka – 114Ka). I am referring to the wave cut platforms along our coastline from Cape Leeuwin to North West Cape and on Rottnest Island, and the “shell bed” in the cliff along the Swan River in Peppermint Grove (near the Scotch College boatshed). And “Warmists” please note that all this happened without any input from Homo Sapiens and today during the “Holocene Interglacial” (11.7Ka – present), nothing has changed.


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        KinkyKeith

        There has also been a drop over the last 8,000 years of 8 metres.

        Since this post glacial high, the oceans have swung down through successive peak of 4 metres and 1.2 metres to the present innocuous situation of being undecided where to go next.

        Rather than being in a dangerous state of flux, we are arguably in the most stable period of sea level experienced in a very long time.

        KK


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          King Geo

          I think SL will drop in the next 3 decades or so as we enter the next LIA – thanks to the next “Grand Minimum” which will be upon us later this decade and you know what that means – SL will drop – by how much? depends how long the LIA will last – only the Sun can answer that question – as for the IPCC & “Warmist Circus” – I believe there will be a boom for psychiatrists – think of all those “Warmists” who will need therapy.


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    Sunray

    As usual, I have enjoyed another stimulating visit to this critically necessary blog, but I must confess that my eyes glaze over when confronted with some of the very long technical jargon filled comments by contributors if a polemicist hue. Remember, KISS, for the bottom pat of the class, in other words, people like me.


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    crakar24

    Sunray,

    Jo does not tolerate sexual harassment here so there will be no “bottom pats” thankyou :-)


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    Sam Wilen

    It is crazy to say that geologists have been ignored or that the geological evidence does not support the notion that human activity can and is causing climate change. The position of the Geological Society of America is clear and unequivocal, if anyone bothers to read it. It is here:
    http://www.geosociety.org/positions/pos10_climate.pdf

    A briefer, clear summary of the key points is here:
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/Geological-Society-discuss-climate-change-evidence-from-the-geological-record.html

    Please get your facts straight people. Stop making stuff up.

    (Your comment stays in Moderation bin because you are off topic and used two fallacies) CTS
    [True CTS. I hope you don't mind if I let it go out "For discussion" anyway...? Jo]


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      This is the same tactic used in gun control attempts in the USA. The police chiefs are quoted as being “for” gun control while the officers are not actually in favor of this. A very small number of leaders versus a very large number of workers–it skews the argument deliberately. It’s a roundabout appeal to authority (CTS’s point, I think) and has no actual validity. Try polling actual geologists, preferably those with tenure or very secure jobs so they can’t be fired for disagreeing with the “leaders”. Then we can assess whether or not geologists agree with the AGW mantra.


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      Backslider

      It is crazy to say that geologists have been ignored or that the geological evidence does not support the notion that human activity can and is causing climate change.

      What exactly is that geological evidence which supports the notion that human activity has and is causing climate change, Sam?


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      Sam Wilen writes,

      The position of the Geological Society of America is clear and unequivocal, if anyone bothers to read it. It is here:…..

      I have seen it before and after their recent revision,it still fails to show evidence that the 25,000 members of the Society was ever polled on this.

      Maybe you can show us evidence that the rank and file members themselves support this scientifically ambivalent statement?


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      Heywood

      Why bother responding?

      Just another traveller plugging the cartoonist’s website.


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        Because what he wrote is shallow thinking because it never occurs to him who made the “position” report,was it the society board or the position report author? It doesn’t say exactly who actively supports it.I doubt most of the 25,000 members were given a true voice to the report and was not polled on it either.

        It is an amazing lack of critical thinking he and so many other reveal that make clear they have no idea what science research is about and that consensus is a POLITICAL method to corral support by means of opinion while science tries to move on evidence and verification.

        I ignored the rest since it was irrelevant.


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    crakar24

    By the way i watched a show about lightning the other day which i found fascinating, scientists believe they have figured out what causes the static discharge to build up:

    hot air rises up until it cools and falls back as ice this hits the hot air rising to create a positive charge on top of teh cloud and a negative charge on the bottom.

    The problem was they could not understand how the cloud would discharge to the ground as the air is highly resistive which means the amount of voltage (potential) is nowhere near high enough, so what was the mechanism/

    Then one day one scientists discovered a very high peak in x ray measurements just as the lightning struck, he checked the next strike and the next and the next and everytime they recorded a strike there was a very high peak in x rays.

    They then postulated that GCR’s were to blame, here is the theory:

    The charged particle enters the earths atmosphere, travels down straight through clouds, as it travels towards the surface it destroys the O2 bonds creating to oxy atoms and teh remaining energy is given off as x rays. In other words the GCR punches a whole through the atmosphere thereby creating a low resistive path to the surface which is used by the cloud to discharge its static potential energy.

    I look forward to reading about the remarkable discovery in AR5.


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    PeterK

    There is no global warming. It’s just a scam. Co2 … yeah, right. The real cause of forests in the far north, crocodiles in Alaska, etc, etc has nothing to do with changing climate and everything to do with the “HAB Theory.” This is the driver of everything!


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    pat

    TonyfromOz –

    thanx for clarifying the Bloomberg/solar stuff.

    12 Oct: UK Telegraph: Christopher Booker: It’s showdown time for our insane ‘green’ energy policy
    Politicians are complaining about rises in fuel bills that are largely the result of their own actions
    What the BBC and everyone else seemed to miss was the small print in which National Grid insisted that the lights wouldn’t be going out, because it now has “the tools” to cover any shortfall. One reason for its confidence was the story reported here before, of how National Grid has been quietly signing up thousands of diesel generators, linked by computers to the grid, which can be automatically switched on at a moment’s notice to cover for any power shortage. And their main purpose, although National Grid tries to deny it, is to make up for the unreliability of that ever-increasing number of heavily subsidised wind farms the Government wants to see built, in its efforts to “de-carbonise” our electricity supply.
    Although National Grid may try to keep quiet about it, the companies piling in to sign up for this scheme – attracted by the colossal sums it is offering to build up its “Short Term Operating Reserve” – make no secret on their websites and planning applications of the fact that it is designed to cover for the disastrous intermittencies of wind power. Even National Grid admits that, within six years, it hopes to have expanded its emergency reserve from 3.5GW to 8GW, equivalent to the output of four large conventional power plants. This is why firms such as Green Frog, Fulcrum Power and Power Balancing Services are pouring millions into building “mini-power stations” – container parks full of diesel generators – to qualify for “availability payments” so lavish that, in proportion, that they make the subsidy bonanza enjoyed by wind-farm operators look like chicken feed…
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/10374005/Its-showdown-time-for-our-insane-green-energy-policy.html


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    Jo needs to requisition Troll Central for a better class of troll. BilB is so stupid it is like killing baby seals.


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    Jimmy Haigh

    These old trees are obviously in denial…


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    Perhaps the saddest thing in all of this is when I was in school, I found geology and paleontology fascinating. I moved to Wyoming, where the layers in rocks are clearly visible (I lived in Iowa before that–not much rock layering visible there). The Wind River canyon has signs identifying the layers.

    Now, when I try to look up information or in a moment of insanity, watch a documentary on Public Television, I am pounded over the head with the climate change mantra. What was once very enjoyable learning has been turned into a club to beat people with (who says bullying is wrong???). I still watch and read–I just use the mute button far more often. :)


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      Roy Hogue

      Sheri,

      Like you I found the subject fascinating. Right here in Los Angeles, Santa Monica and Malibu we have some of the best places for students to study the sediment layering and some of the convolutions are extreme, with older strata folded until it rests on top of newer stuff. There are places where you can actually see this folding in a cliff or hillside. The Santa Monica Mountains are a goldmine for demonstrating how the crust of the earth was formed over millions of years. And the fossils are another thing to fascinate you if you take the trouble to look.

      National Geographic is now among the chief offenders. They once were good at documenting the world as they found it. That was the organization’s whole purpose, their whole objective in what they did. But now they’ve taken up an advocacy position that makes everything they print or produce for TV give me a sickening feeling because it’s so lopsided.

      I understand your complaint perfectly.


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      Mark D.

      Sheri, I should have asked before. I’ve been to the Wind River Canyon and the surrounding area including some volunteer work at the Episcopal settlement near Ft. Washakie (home to the oldest brick building in Wyoming as I recall). I was an adult chaperone from our church youth group of around 20 late teens/early adults. I loved the area and the people from the Shoshone tribe that hosted us.

      The Wind River area is quite beautiful though there is a great deal of Wyoming that isn’t unless you like rocky deserts.


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        I’ve heard tourists refer to many areas as “desolate”. The mountains and canyons are what draw people in. I love the deserts–I have 145 acres of sagebrush and rocks. :)


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        Roy Hogue

        Mark, Sheri,

        There is a lot of beauty in what many would call desolation. I find the deserts of the southwest absolutely fascinating in the variety of things both living and inanimate that you can find in these “most desolate” of places.

        I’ve never had the opportunity to visit Wyoming but perhaps in the future I’ll get there…

        In the meantime, if you haven’t been to Death Valley National Park in California I can recommend a visit. Do go in the winter however. The Furnace Creek Inn is a 4-star hotel with a fabulous dining room. It was first opened in 1927 and is something of general architectural interest along with the rest of the valley. It’s located right at sea level with a magnificent view of the valley below it. There’s an airport so you can fly in if you have an airplane (runway elevation is -205 feet).

        The valley itself has many things of interest and the beauty of the place can only escape you if you’r blind or dead.

        And yes, Mark, there’s sagebrush; also coyotes and a bunch of other wild life, that if you look for it, can be found without much trouble; even brine shrimp that live in the salt water pools at the lowest point in the valley, 282 feet (86 m) below sea level. Given that the water is always saturated these must be the hardiest salt water creatures in the world.

        Never underestimate the “desolation” because it contains some of the greatest beauty of all.


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          Mark D.

          Roy, I agree completely with the general theme of your comment and especially about those deserts that experience a profound spring bloom.

          But you’ve never seen NE Wyoming. Moonscape would be accurate at least when I passed through early summer. Sheri’s 145 acres might not even have sagebrush if it were up there. Now I am pretty good at seeing beauty where it isn’t obvious, and certainly there must be beautiful sunrises and sets there at minimum. But I’m telling you it’s DESOLATE! (between Gillette & Casper)

          The area Sheri mentioned (Lander and Wind River) is not desolate. It is green, pretty, has decent weather and at the foothills of a range that becomes the Tetons further north. Geologically interesting because of the ancient super volcano http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowstone_Caldera that isn’t fully asleep.


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            Mark is absolutely correct. There are areas of Wyoming that are so flat and barren it’s disturbing to tourists and others. Several years back, an elderly woman got stuck on a gravel road south of Gillette when she made a wrong turn and spent a week out there before being found. She licked the frost off her car for water (seriously-it was in late fall). There is nothing but flat, sandy prairie. No trees, no industry, nothing except the occasional coal mine. I can’t really disagree with the moonscape comparison, especially if the prairie dogs have eaten down all the grass. Google Earth really doesn’t do it justice, but try looking at the area around Newcastle, Wyoming.

            Roy-I have not been to Death Valley National Park but one summer day I did get “misdirected” and drove through part of Death Valley in a truck without air conditioning…….I’ve been in the desert around Yuma, which probably does have more life than northeastern Wyoming. Actually, I was surprised at the amount of plants and animals. Loved the cactuses! I guess I thought of “hot” deserts as looking like the Sahara. I’ve gotten used to “cold” deserts and cactuses in snow here.


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    Roy Hogue

    Is this Greenland redux?

    That’s not exactly the best term I suppose but it sure makes the evidence that Greenland was once much warmer all the more compelling.


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