JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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The secret life of internet climate trolls…

UPDATE from Hoyt himself below…

I like Hoyt.

Two earnest young chaps drive out to meet the slimy-ogre-from-the-hobbit who posts skeptical comments all over the web, and discover, shock, Hoyt is actually a nice guy. He’s not only normal looking, he’s well spoken, and he has good manners. He’s likeable.

Watch: The secret life of internet climate trolls: part one – 5 min  video


They young fans of the climate scare get excited when Hoyt admits he doesn’t believe a Democrat. (Hmm, I suspect they are thinking “ideologue”.)

They also got excited when he said he was a prostate cancer survivor, not because he survived (though I say, Thank Goodness) but because it gave them an excuse to talk about “doctors”. There’s an attempt at a James Delingpole-BBC moment coming where they play up a logical fallacy as if it tells us something about the climate. You trust medical science, but not climate science? I do hope Hoyt responded that if his medical doctors had been hiding data and losing records he would have been skeptical of them too.

Naturally, there’s no real science discussed. That apparently comes in “Part III”. Though…wait and see. They’re pairing him up against Physics Girl (who we meet in Part II) who has a PhD, works with the Hadron Collider and has a black belt in Judo.

We all know how selective editing can bias the result, but so far at least it’s been a fun thing to watch. Let’s hope they keep the good natured theme, and let both sides speak. If they do, that would make it a first.

The odds are not good (to put it mildly). This comes from Climate Desk, where they enjoy their troll battles so much they don’t allow any comments at all. (Just tweets).

But lucky for them, they have a whole planet to find a bad-weather-day somewhere for a photo-op.

Hoyt, feel free to tell us your side of the story over here.

UPDATE: Lubos points out that Part III is up in another spot. And I can say Congrats to the guys at Climate Desk, against my expectations, they did keep it good natured. They didn’t actually discuss any science at all. But they didn’t do a character assassination.

PhysicsGirl is assuming that all scientists are the same, that confirmation bias doesn’t exist, and that when someone discusses a climate model, an answer about another model entirely, has some meaning. She talks in general abstract terms so much I wonder if she’s been reading much on the climate debate. James doesn’t answer the most pointed question that survived the editing (would he keep his job?). And I’d like to see what Hoyt said that was edited out, but he comes across well in a video that goes nowhere. But if they’d caught him getting angry or making a mistake, it would have been a headline.

@hoytc55 Good on him.

h/t Willie. Ta.

 

UPDATE: Hoyt in comments says:

Joanne, I enjoyed reading your review of the ClimateDesk videos. Also, I have visited your superb site many times. It is very helpful pointing out various angles to the global warming alarmist propaganda effort.
Concning the video, James West and Tim ODonnell were a pleasure to work with and total professionals, as we filmed and interviewed for some three hours, and then another hour with Rosi with the show down. Yes, a lot was edited out, and it obviously had to be. Also, obviously a lot of “assumptions” have been made about who Hoyt is, how he thinks, and what actions he’s taken such as with prostate cancer and doctors.
First, I got involved in the issue when our school was showing Inconvenient Truth as a factual documentary.After a number of back and forths of easily demonstrating that Inconvenient Truth was nothing but a propaganda film, to the school system’s credit, they took a more balanced approach. Then after when I continued to see the propaganda pour out of the alarmists grant grovelling organizations, I thought I would continue to study the issue and get involved in the dialogue. Where the alarmists have gone with this is astonishing. In a nutshell, I think the global warming propaganda campaign will go down as the greatest fraud ever perpetuated in science. The only thing they haven’t blamed CO2 and global warming for is bad breath. Give them time. They will get there.
The one comparative that is completely wrong in the video is that I listened to what my doctors told me to do when we discovered I had aggressive prostate cancer. Then there is the attempt to give the alarmist climate scientists credit via a comparison.While, it could be easy to assume I relied on my doctors, nothing could be further from the truth. Do you think that a doctor is going to give you direct guidance when their world is a cacaphony of malpractice law suits? My primary sources for my decision to elect to have DaVinci Robitic surgery came from my friends who had prostate cancer and numerous research forums. My doctors, through no fault of their own were vague…such as “you need to check everything out”. Guys, if you are 50 or older, know your PSA score. There are few or no symtoms as in my case.
What is striking is how obvious it is even to a layperson on the subject such as myself that global warming has little to do with CO2. Early on I asked my son Will who is a Penn State aerospace engineer about the power generation equivalents between man’s power generation and the sun’s energy hitting the earth. It took Will little time, and he is an expert in power equivalents, to calcaulste a ratio that is so large that the only possible conclusion is that the sun and oceans in numerous ways control our climate. But facts don’t matter now. When you point out the facts, the response is to suppress it, block the publication in the various science journals, or call you names. The global warming AGW component is now a multibillion dollar effort for grants and left wing political promotion.

In summary, we have a theory, and it is only theory on its best day,called global warming which has been hijacked by a left wing and/or socialist political movement, where bending data is totally acceptable. The effort has morphed where this political group is attempting to implement policy via an “assumed close” as if this false theory has been proven.Ironically, what will ultimately return sanity and integrity to the climate science and physics world is climate itself as temperatures are leading the way with them having been flat for 16 years.

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The secret life of internet climate trolls..., 8.8 out of 10 based on 39 ratings

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102 comments to The secret life of internet climate trolls…

  • #
    Nathan

    The link to the video is broke already! :-(


    Sorry, extra http in link. Fixed. Ta. – Jo

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  • #
    graphicconception

    What Delingpole’s reply might have been:

    “If you screw up as a doctor of medicine you get banned from practising. If you screw up as a doctor of climate science you get promoted to professor!”

    (In some cases you get moved to England.)

    201

    • #
      Kevin Lohse

      Sending Aussie criminals to England is only fair, after all.

      270

      • #
        Richard111

        Dammit Kevin! I’ve now got to clean my laptop. :-)

        100

      • #
        Yonniestone

        Spoken like a true Aussie HAhahah
        I needed that, Love it!

        10

      • #

        Please make it Scotland. The SNP leader, Alex Salmond, has managed to get a referendum for independence in 2014. His economic case rests upon blighting the Highlands with wind turbines and then charging the English for that electricity at well above market rates.

        21

  • #
    Overshoot

    Working link is http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/video/2013/may/22/secret-life-internet-climate-trolls-video

    The original link had “http://” appended to it for some reason.

    00

  • #
    janama

    Typical warmists – they don’t discuss the science with Hoyt, they just attempt to ridicule his character.

    51

    • #
      Joe V.

      Yeah, but Science isn’t for talking about. It’s for kids to play with, while there is much more interesting stuff to talk about. Like bloggs and crazy old blokes who were going to make look sully & stuff. Science just goes without saying

      10

  • #
    Overshoot

    Thumbs up to #4

    It is also telling that one very rational person that encourages people to think through what they believe is called a troll (repeatedly) and the other is portrayed as a super hero.

    30

  • #

    Dear Jo, I got the info about this thing from Willie. It’s funny. Crazy parasitic nerds want to show that a Gentleman whom they find inconvenient is a jerk. So they go to a house and find out that he is a nice Gentlemen in a happy house with a cat and with some life history while they’re just annoying ugly young men with no experience and wisdom.

    Fine, then they extract this cool Physics Girl I have never heard of somewhere from Yale, an astroturf of a sort who has clearly no idea about the climate but who is charming.

    The showdown, part III, has been posted for 4 days already. They just keep it in secret at various places. It’s here;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU-EPDBZeaI

    They don’t solve much in those 4 minutes. She is just convinced that climatology is almost as proper science as any other science while the “troll”, i.e. wise old man, would surely prefer to discuss the topic at a much higher depth.

    202

    • #

      Thank you Lubos. Update added to the post. I like Hoyt even more. You are right, I’m not even convinced she has read much of the climate debate… perhaps Hoyt trounced her favorite lines, and this 4 minutes was all that was left?

      92

      • #
        Hoyt Connell

        Per the reference to Physicsgirl, she couldn’t have been nicer, and no comments on editing. If I were permitted one thing per having someone in physics, I think she would learn a great deal to meet renowned Princeton physicist Dr. William Happer and study his research as he is a specialist in gasious interaction, and was recently on CNBC where he noted that there is little correlation with CO2 and temps.

        10

    • #
      Maverick

      And don’t forget that the “Crazy parasitic nerds” are also big hypocrites – the steel petroleum powered car cruising down the concrete freeways, the nylon and cotton clothes, the polymer eye-glass frames, and a metal camera stuffed full of gold,silver,copper and lithium resting on an aluminum stand.

      31

  • #
    Backslider

    Jo, I really do not understand why you are giving oxygen to something from The Guardian (the new home of the S(k)S), of all places, which is clearly designed to demean this “troll” and to paint all skeptics with the same brush.

    20

  • #

    Interesting that they’re portraying a climate realist as a troll (the alarmists being the ones who specialise in that particular activity) without using the denier word – a sign of the times as they get pushed into the bargaining phase. However, they’re going to truss him up like a Christmas turkey – it’s their nature.

    http://thepointman.wordpress.com/2010/12/07/the-death-of-the-agw-belief-system/

    Pointman

    71

    • #

      I take it back. I think he trussed them up.

      Pointman

      40

      • #

        Trussing them up is not enough. They have to realize they are trussed up before it does any good!

        10

        • #

          “Trussing them up is not enough. They have to realize they are trussed up before it does any good!”

          Perhaps this comes with time, with age, with wisdom!

          And then again, maybe not … one can always hope, etc.

          _Jim

          00

  • #
    grayman

    The 2 young men in their commentary talking about Hoyt need to look in the mirror. Physics girl, so she has a black belt in judo and that matters HOW?

    60

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      she has a black belt in judo and that matters HOW?

      It is tough in the Physic(al) world. A girl needs to know how to look after herself if she is ever attacked by Higgs Boson. [Hey, Rereke, that's Mister Boson to you -Mod]

      110

      • #
        grayman

        Rereke, Great come back. I gave you a thumbs up for that. watch out for the Mod he is Mr. Boson body guard and he is protective. Mod I would give you a thumbs up to but there does not seem to be one for you so I am giving it to you the old fashion way.

        20

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      When you look at it, it is definitely a sexist differentiation. How come the thought police let that come to air?

      10

  • #
    Barry Woods

    Off topic, but A minor but satisfying discussion between a sceptic, a climate scientist and a high profile member of the climate concerned..
    for all those that remember ‘No Pressure’ 10:10 – Franny Armstrong and 300,000 climate deaths

    https://twitter.com/frannyarmstrong/status/337624969758507008

    Franny Armstrong
    ‏@frannyarmstrong 51m
    @BarryJWoods @Foxgoose @richardabetts Yes that 300K figure is discredited and no longer quoted by me or others. Kofi Annan’s org was wrong

    I know Richard, Richard knows Franny..

    Richard Betts ‏
    @richardabetts 4h
    @BarryJWoods @frannyarmstrong @Foxgoose
    300K climate deaths is dodgy http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/foresight/docs/migration/science-reviews/11-1121-sr3-changing-variability-in-climates-year-to-year.pdf

    see why, pg 17, by Prof Richard Betts (Met Office) ref GHF report

    20

  • #
    Joe V.

    OT. Did George Soros save Britain from the Nightmare of the Euro ?
    Over two decades ago back in 1992, Soros is reported to have made £1 Billion from the British Pound as it crashed out of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism, a forerunner to the now failing Euro single currency, on Black Wednesday.

    Now Soros is investing a small fraction of that
    In expanding his Media Interests for the first time into Britain with a £50 Million investment in a high speed Broadband venture to rival that of British Telecom.
    Soros invests in Ultrafast Broadband for Uk

    00

  • #
    Cynthia

    Medicine is political also. As long as a doctor does what the majority of medical practitioners do, he is safe. It is the engineering profession that is relatively free of politics. Engineers are judged by results, not conformism.

    70

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      That is an interesting point Cynthia.

      Engineers (and their more affluent cousins, Architects) face different challenges with each new piece of work they do. The tools, and techniques, and components may be similar, but the way they are combined to produce the required outcome will change from job to job.

      As such, engineering has become standards driven. Each component is manufactured to, and tested against, a defined standard; and the ways they can put together is defined by a range of standards, depending on what is being constructed. But there is no “standard” hydro dam. They are all unique, because of where they are.

      The insight that I am trying to express, is that Engineering, as a creative discipline, has resisted the application of “standard” processes, which many other professions have succumbed to. Instead, it questions what the differences are, and where the problem areas are likely to be, and worries about where the dangers will be lurking.

      In short, Engineers are skeptical by nature and training, in ways that those who are bound by bureaucratic process, are not.

      Their poorer cousins, the Scientists, used to be that way as well, but they have become trapped in the bureaucratic processes surrounding funding, which can actually act as a damper on any professional creativity they might have. Funding is often based on a predefined outcome, so the scientist has to creatively find ways of accommodating that, if they are to get the funding.

      Engineers face the same issue, but the outcome for them, is a tangible construction or object. For the Scientists, the outcome is an intangible political imperative — it becomes political in the funding process.

      Doctors are trapped in the same way that Scientists are, but in their case, it is the bureaucratic bulk purchasing of drugs, that is the real impediment.

      Almost every profession, with the exception of the Engineering professions, is actually smothered by bureaucratic blandness.

      191

      • #
        Joe V.

        Rereke, this is almost a masterpiece of expression. I’m going to use it to explain to my bosses why their pervasive culture of Tick/Click & Dropdown Box Forms for everything is driving me up the wall and destroying the constructive capabilities of their most valuable employees.
        I’d developed an idea that there are (at least) two opposing mind sets:- the constructive and the administrative . One is driven by executing & repeating processes while the other prefers figuring out the processes but isn’t keen on following the same process over again, seeing each problem as a separate challenge needing a new solution.

        60

    • #
      Maverick

      Very true Cynthia. The theory that cholesterol increases the risk of heart disease/attack is one such theory, that like climate change, is not even remotely confirmed by the empirical data. The theory was born out a 1953 study where the researcher plotted the consumption of dietary fat to coronary heart across seven countries and got a nice hockey stick style curve (ring a bell?) The thing was that the data was available for 22 countries and if he plotted the data for all the countries the graph looks like a canvas that has had paint flicked it from 5 meters away by some three year olds. That is the researcher selectively included and analysed the information (ring a bell?). Then the conventional wisdom monster called “Cholesterol is bad” has grown and grown to the point that doctors now measure a patient’s LDL and if they are too high according to a chart developed by the statin drug makers (read funded climate researchers), then they give you statin medication which successfully lowers your LDL levels. Of course there is no empirical data to show that lower LDL levels lowers heart disease risk, just like there is no empirical evidence that man made carbon is increasing the temperature. Frankly, its a sad indictment on the human race, that we can be so easily led by consensus. Where as a dog, I am pretty sure, trusts it survival instincts enough that it would refuse to eat a diet of 90% fruit and vegetables just because a consensus of scientists decided that this was best.

      51

      • #
        Rod Stuart

        I’m with you all the way, Maverick, until I get to the last sentence.
        My best friend, a British Bulldog named Goober, has a genetic disorder called Cystinuria. As a result, his diet is nothing but a prescription dog food U/D. It is mostly fruits and vegetables, and the animal is as healthy as a Malley bull. I suppose I feed him this way because veterinary science tells me that if I don’t he will again have the excruciating pain of those stones.
        On the other hand, left to his own devices, he would much rather dine on chicken and rabbit.

        00

  • #
    Mark D.

    What did I hear him say about Hoyt?;

    he’s both a producer and purveyor of America’s antagonistic political culture.

    Like politics is more “refined” elsewhere in the world? What a dumb**s

    Now I’d like to get my neurons on the little lippy dumb**s and show him some real antagonistic political style. Same for the nerdy Judo master “slayer” too.

    Hoyt does a pretty good job and I bet he was severely edited besides. I wonder if he’s ever been here to Jo Nova?

    **please note my kinder and gentler approach.

    60

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      **please note my kinder and gentler approach.

      Sorry, I missed it.

      Could you please run it past me again?

      ;-)

      20

  • #
    Joe V.

    Hoyt comes across like Monckton. He talks about facts, rather than about people or about himself.
    Whereas these kids, it’s all about them and how how cool they are. Facts are merely incidental to them.

    82

    • #
      Manfred

      Precisely. Many live in an image driven world defined by the miniscule dimensions of a sound bite, now absolutely critical, given their attention span.

      31

  • #
    Manfred

    I think this gives us a glimpse of generation gap at 1 sigma from the mean. At first thought, a number of things leap out at me.

    First, here we witness an attempt by aspirant journos striving for an original angle. This serves to highlight the way in which the younger generation strive with every fiber of their being to be different and unique. After all, they’re surrounded by conformity at every turn, by rules and regulations and by multiple media capable of demonstrating that just about everything they conceive of has been thought of before.

    The second point: here we see a our young journos trying to portray another member of their generation, of whom they are clearly rightfully proud because she gives the appearance of being a polymath taking the form of a delightfully inoffensive, ninja female physicist. In truth however, she is not. Nevertheless, the journos ploy is a crude attempt at overwhelming Trollus Maximus in scintillating stage headlights. The reality though is quite different as she, possibly through inexperience, commits scientific seppuku in the final, heavily edited third segment, to wit:

    Trollus Maximus: “I have no disagreement with continuing research but I have a huge disagreement with establishing policy on an unproven theory.”

    Physics Girl: “You’re assuming something that may or may not be true and you’re not asking for proof for what you are already assuming.”

    Some of you may remember that AGW/CAGW remains a PC hypothesis still searching for evidence. The burden of proof lies with those that assert the hypothesis, not the other way around. Our ninja scientist simply doesn’t know enough about the subject she is discussing and falls on her sword.

    Finally, given that she isn’t a climate scientist, doesn’t this alone disqualify her from any erudition on the subject? /sarc.

    Sharp salute to Trollus Maximus. Wage on, wage on.

    80

  • #
    FIN

    sun is driving climate, not CO2

    So the only climate point he makes in the video is wrong.

    118

    • #
      Backslider

      Come again?

      70

      • #
        Themm Nunnov

        Shame, BS.

        Earth’s climate is being controlled from a cloaked Carbonnian Warbird parked in orbit on the dark side of the moon.

        Everybody knows that.

        100

      • #
        Mark D.

        No I hope FIN does not come again. Obviously they are missing a few brain cells cause if the Sun doesn’t control our climate what (or whom) does????

        On the other hand we have been lacking target trolls lately since the regulars went cold (like the NH temps.)

        71

    • #
      Rod Stuart

      If you believe what you just wrote FIN, please allow me to offer for sale to you and you alone one SF bridge.

      This link regarding Murry Salby may be of interest then.

      70

  • #
    KinkyKeith

    On a wider scale this example of modern life illustrates that we now live in a world that is not grounded in very much at all.

    Having ideas buzzing around inside your head while have almost no contact with a tangible reality is not a good idea and the whole Global

    warming mess is an outstanding monument to this type of analysis.

    Our society needs to be switched to on-hold mode, reprogrammed and re booted because we are in big trouble at the moment.

    KK

    80

    • #
      Yonniestone

      KK, True, sadly true.
      The whole thing smacked of childish young men tackling a real man and acting in a childish manner while doing so.
      Is this what constitutes as an example of mature behavior for young adults today?
      And to top it off a reference to a girl with a “black belt” in whatever, really is this the prerequisite for a critical thinker today, well I suppose most recent “climate scientists” have a black belt in “No can do” ;)

      40

    • #
      Bulldust

      As we become more digitally involved this is an inevitable side effect. Most people are not self-aware enough to realise that The Matrix is not a red pill or blue pill moment, it is a gradual progression. Ask a typical teenager today to go without all forms of internet communication for a month… a week even and get back to me.

      We are already in a matrix, just some of us know it, most are blissfully unaware. The latter are the easiest to influence.

      100

      • #
        Yonniestone

        Bulldust says “We are already in a matrix, just some of us know it, most are blissfully unaware. The latter are the easiest to influence.”
        Much akin to “Familiarity breeds contempt”

        30

      • #
        Mark D.

        Bulldust, I don’t think it is only a “side effect”. One more generation and it will be the only effect. I worry quite a bit on the notion that humans can’t really cope with the speed of all the information and technology change. It is happening faster than evolution.

        50

        • #
          Bulldust

          It is the role of older generations to worry about the incoming youth … welcome to old fart status :) Thankfully rock and roll was not the undoing of society.

          Despite my often dire writings and economist training, I remain at heart an optimist. I have great faith in the predominantly good will of my fellow earth dwellers and their inclination to use new technologies predominantly for positive change.

          The rapidly changing technology brings both great leaps forward and some potentially deleterious side effects. Is the increasing disconnect with the “real world” necessarily a bad thing? The environutters want us to get out of nature’s way, virtual reality is one way of having less direct impact on the world. Maybe it’s a win-win? Easier to rack, stack and pack humans in vertical high rises in Agenda 21 certified living camps if we are connected into some futuristic virtual matrix disconnected from the real world…

          Who’s to say this is dystopian? Decades down the track when online experience is superior to dangerous and dirty real world (old skool) adventures, why would anyone want to take the red pill? It sounds futuristic now, but that’s because most people mire their thinking in their historical experiences, and lack the broad vision to see where we are heading. It is inevitable (to lend from Agent Smith’s lexicon) that humans increasingly merge with machines and the associated communications technologies … it is already happening and it is occurring at an accelerating pace. Suggesting it should not happen is about as effective as the UN telling hostile nations/tribes to be nice to each other.

          I could wax lyrical on this subject at length, but I am way off topic :D Needless to say I enjoy reading about the marvellous advances in technology every day – these are the things that gladden my heart.

          40

    • #
      john robertson

      Don’t worry KK , the upcoming economic chaos and mass poverty that the young will share, will provide a fine readjustment of attitude .
      Reorientation to reality?
      I figure a bunch of expensive “self help” courses, will help seperate them form the last of their parents money.
      Poverty for dummies?

      60

      • #
        KinkyKeith

        John

        Here in Newcastle another company has just announced inevitable job losses of somewhere between 60 and 120 people.

        This after our wonderful government closed down one of our Aluminum plants last year.

        The failure of government to correct the Aussie dollar to maintain the capacity to produce goods here is appalling and short term benefits of cheap imports will only be relevant until we are all on the dole.

        I estimate that by June 2023 we will all be on the dole; then we won’t be able to import anything, unless like Greece we can borrow some money from the EEU to pay our politicians Superannuation Entitlements.

        Maybe then the JJJJJ Generation will slowly become aware that they were conned, again by people smarter than themselves.

        Politicians 9

        Taxpayers 0

        KK :)

        51

        • #
          Bulldust

          I am not sure what more our Government is supposed to do to curb the rise of the Aussie dollar. They have run irresponsible budgets for years and still can’t get the dollar down…

          Are you suggesting unfloating the dollar?

          20

          • #
            KinkyKeith

            Hi BD

            Well the US owed China a lot of US dollars and China held a lot of US currency with which they could purchase valuable American assets.

            America fixed that so that the Chinese could only buy a small proportion of what was possible before the devaluation.

            Smart move but not appreciated by China.

            The US deval has also enabled their manufacturing industry to hold on while stupid Australia watches its manufacturers move to everywhere but Australia. Australian businesses now use New Zealand for example as a major manufacturing location.

            Not forward thinking on the part of our leaders but at least we have had cheap imports for a few years before we all lose our jobs,

            KK :)

            10

            • #
              KinkyKeith

              Another good trick by the US Banksters is to borrow money from the FED at 0.9% and lend it to Australian banks at 3 % – Isn’t quantitative easing wonderful – for the banks.

              KK

              00

            • #
              Bulldust

              As an conomist I am more than a little aware of these things Kinky. Could Australia have debauched its currency to save some jobs? Sure, but that would have brought a whole suite of different economic problems. If there was an easy and economically sound option, I imagine the RBA and/or Government would have taken it. Even dropping our interest rates dramatically won’t put us back in 60-70USc territory anymore. We are part of the portfolio of international central banks. That’s massive investment, and where else are they going to put that money? We’re as good an investment as anywhere else and there’s not a lot we can do about it. Sucks to be good, I guess.

              10

              • #
                KinkyKeith

                Bulldust.

                I defer to your more advanced economic view of things.

                In out Met course we had to do Economics 1Z so I am basically familiar with supply – demand curves and not much more.

                “Sucks to be good”

                Thats the problem we may have a great potential workforce, good people, strong democratic values: yes all that is good but we have had less than inspired leadership recently and there is a little bit of demoralization appearing.

                As an external sign of the good functioning of Australia we can look at how easily CAGW has been foisted onto Jo and Joe taxpayer.

                That our government can be so easily subverted and turned from good works by the CAGW crowd fills me with some concern for our future.

                KK :)

                00

              • #
                Rod Stuart

                Keith here is a piece by Kevin Andrews from 2011 that answers your query to some extent.

                10

              • #
                Bulldust

                No deference required … economists’ models are mostly thought experiments with little real world application. This is why I preferred econometrics and modelling, but the more I studied the more I realised most economic models were, to borrow from Tony, crap.

                I have little doubt that climate models are much the same. They would suffer from the same types of prolems that economic models have. I find it difficult to believe that we can’t model flows of money very well, but can accurately project global temperature (as if that construct even means anything anyway) 50 years into the future based on flows of energy. I am much more inclined to believe that we don’t grasp either system particularly well.

                The main difference I see is that economists accept that there are multiple schools of thought when it comes to the murky sysystem we call the economy, while CAGWers accept no view but their own. The humility is completely absent. That’s one of the big clues that you are not dealing with honest people, let alone scientists.

                30

              • #
                KinkyKeith

                Hi BD

                That’s it. Models can be excellent when done correctly but when used as an advertising gimmick for political purposes they are hard for people to understand and so it is hard to discredit them.

                I could go on about the warmer Computer Simulations posing as models but all you have to do is look at their model; basically uni dimensional with CO2 as the driver and EVERYTHING else confined to the Black Box and T left as the dependent variable.

                A real money maker.

                http://joannenova.com.au/2013/05/major-30-reduction-in-modelers-estimates-of-climate-sensitivity-skeptics-were-right/#comment-1277354

                KK :)

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                KinkyKeith

                Rod that item by KA is very heavy duty stuff for Sunday Morning!

                KK :)

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                Rod Stuart

                I thought you would like it KK.

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    Manfred

    Trollus Maximus:

    I have no disagreement with continuing research but I have a huge disagreement with establishing policy on an unproven theory

    Physics Girl:

    You’re assuming something that may or may not be true and you’re not asking for proof for what you are already assuming

    Game – set – match to Trollus Maximus. Physics Girl, who is clearly not listening, vacuously parodies the meme.

    And this is what passes for a “scientist?”

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      Joe V.

      I guess the answer is I’m not asking for loads-a-money to spend on whatever unquestioned assumption it is you think you’re referring to.

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      Bulldust

      She is female and ‘cool’ … she won the debate in the vacuous minds of warmistas before any “debate” started. Not sure why attention was drawn to this video TBH, other than to show how pathetic some of the CAGW hangers on are these days. These strike me as the type that work as rally boosters at Youth Against CC rallies or the like. Vacuous spruikers for vacuous minds…

      OK used my quota of the word vacuous for the week…

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    • #
      Hoyt Connell

      Manfred,

      You hit the nail on the head. When I brought basic issues to the forefront, they were responded to via philosophic waxing. In fairness, global warming is still an unproven theory. Nice isolation!

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    Manfred

    Oops – ‘…this is…’ – should read ‘…she is…’ or

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    Yonniestone

    To understand why Climate Desk even exists you have to understand that Activism has become an everyday pursuit for many of the population that covers all ages and social levels.
    This has been encouraged by Governments and NGO’S and is a useful tool for wasting peoples time whilst the important issues go unnoticed or challenged.
    a quick search found http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWfGKt0aZLI and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE2M7g_IWSE
    Plus this classic from Lord Monckton http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZprpB6rqUs4 how annoyed is that woman? :)

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    Niff

    Either they failed miserably in editing this to “slay” Trollus Maximus or there just wasn’t anything they could do with the material, because HE slayed THEM. But we should encourage more of this debate seeking. The more the merrier!

    If we can get a reasonable discussion going what do you think will win? The CAGW lobby has strenuously stomped on ANY kind of oxygen to the other side at every turn. Just think about the climategate revealed efforts, and various walkouts on interviews, and refusals to debate.

    Bring it on.

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    Streetcred

    I did have to chuckle at the young metronome’s query to Hoyt questioning whether his political beliefs (non-democrat) influences his ability to “embrace” the concepts of CAGW … that REALLY exposes the superficial understanding that these youngsters have of the ‘science’ (for want of a word). Clearly, such a query gives some insight to the thinking of these people … for them to be a liberal is to embrace the warmist cult / religion. That, I think, is a great problem for youth … they interpret science as a political outcome.

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    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      With reference to my issue of influence being applied through Government being in the funding business, the inevitable result will always be that we always get the best science that money can buy.

      10

    • #
      Hoyt Connell

      Street Cred,

      Bingo! What was obvious in the whole interview process was where when the concepts of facts violated the religion, hence there was no way the counter religion facts could be accurate.That was an eye opener when I asked a basic question of comparative power generation of mankind’s energy production vs the sun’s energy hitting the earth. My son Will is an aerospace engineer grad from Penn State and this was an easy physics question for him to answer. It went like this: I asked if mankind’s total energy production were represented by a golf ball, how big would the ball be representing the suns energy hitting only earth? I answered in the Showdown in a guarded answer that the ball would be 100000 times larger than the sun. I was of course challenged. I said you are right. It is actually 126000 times the size of the sun. Feel free to check the calculations. All of that was edited out.

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    RoyFOMR

    Viewing this video-trilogy brought a chuckle to this old man as I recalled the saying attributed to Guisot, Clemenceau and even dear old Winnie himself- a proper old rascal if ever there was one (RIP all and xxx).

    “If you’re not a liberal when you’re 20, you have no heart. If
    you’re not a conservative when you’re 40, you have no head”

    Ok, the actual wording may be as debatable as is its source but I think it captures the meaning, as I understand it, perfectly.

    I, 100%, guarantee that, in 20 or 30 years time, the starring-triad of “Troll-Busting-Heroes” will, in their own way, be Hoytists – bravely fighting their corner against the forces of enthusiatic but misinformed youth and the Dark Lords who callously employ ruthless manipulation, by dollar and deceit, to orchestrate the grooming and, subsequent, seduction to “the cause” of their disciples some of whom, self-select, become Junk Science “Jihadists”

    Rather perversely, perhaps, I quite warmed to the presenters – I think that they are highly motivated by their beliefs and should be commended for their enterprise and determination to confront one who does not share their views.
    I like their attitude as much as I disagree with their beliefs. That’s a plus as far I’m concerned although patience is required to see tangible benefits until they mature.

    Disclaimer: My 100% guarantee conforms to the UEA Climatostatricksical code of ethics (November 2009) that,implicitly, endorses any statement or projection (prediction) that makes a CoCuP (Claim of Certainty Under Pressure) for any future period after pensionable-rights have been attained or, likely, personal-demise has occured, is just Dandy or Beano by them!

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    • #
      Maverick

      In 1987, I was 17 and my economics teacher was the late John Daly, author of the Greenhouse Trap, one of the earlier books debunking the greenhouse cult. Then working hard, partying hard, earning money and having right wing views, or views that challenged conventional wisdom was acceptable and indeed encouraged. The others, the insipid fall-in-line 17-23 y/so had no real affordable access to expressing themselves by doing something quirky on video and counting the likes, so they were pretty much ignored. If I was 17 today working two jobs and buying $500 of BHP shares I would be ostraciced.

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      • #
        Mattb

        NOt sure where you live, but where Jo and myself are from “partying hard, earning money and having right wing views” are the norm.

        “If I was 17 today working two jobs and buying $500 of BHP shares I would be ostraciced.”
        By whom?

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      Jason Calley

      “If you’re not a liberal when you’re 20, you have no heart. If
      you’re not a conservative when you’re 40, you have no head”

      Let me post an addendum. “If you are not anti-state when you’re 60, you have no wisdom.”

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  • #

    In the video, there was one telling remark.

    It starts at the 3.10 mark, and the nice young man says to Hoyt with respect to his treatment for his Prostate Cancer.

    …..because there’s a group of scientists here that you take immediate action on…..

    The point I have here is this.

    Hoyt has taken immediate action once he finds he has Prostate Cancer, with the knowledge that this will improve his survival rate. He has acted immediately.

    Now, think back to the hole in the Ozone layer scare. They took immediate action to ban what told us was the cause, and all CFC’s were removed from virtually every spray product. They acted immediately.

    Now we have this Global Warming/Climate Change scare. They tell us, hand on heart, that they know (and know absolutely) the cause, that being the emissions of CO2. They (say that they) know the cause, so are they acting IMMEDIATELY to completely remove these man made emissions, and here keep in mind that this is not just one Hoyt who may die, or that the hole in the Ozone layer might lead to greater risk from harmful rays of the Sun. This is what they tell us as nigh on the end of the World as we know it.

    So, this being the single most critical thing for the survival of the Planet, are they saying (bugger the results, because this is really really important) that we immediately close down every source of those man made emissions, and here I’m on my old hobby horse, coal fired power plants, which make up 40% of all those emissions?

    No!

    They’re not doing this at all. They’ll fiddle at the edges and say that some are indeed being closed down, tiny, time expired inconsequential little plants, all aging beyond their life span, and in fact mostly replaced by CO2 emitting gas fired plants.

    Have they closed any large scale plant BECAUSE of this scare?

    No!

    Have they immediately stopped any Country, anywhere, from building new plants?

    No!

    The warmists still blandly go about blah blah blahing about their science, while at the same time totally ignoring that NOTHING is being done to shut off those emissions.

    That should be the most telling thing that literally screams out that the problem is nowhere near as dramatic as what is being made out.

    The words here are IMMEDIATE ACTION.

    There is none, and all you get is waffle about how action is being taken to reduce those emissions by perhaps some time twenty or more years into the future.

    Not an immediate stoppage but an airy fairy perhaps minor reduction that not only is not eventuating, but is in fact going in the other direction, as emissions of CO2 rise.

    You warmists need to tell your people to actually DO Something, and until that happens then all you have is waffle and blah blah blah.

    You’ve got nothing, and from that nothing, you do nothing, but blindly mock us.

    You tell us this is so damned serious. Then bloody well do something about it. Don’t just look down on us from your superior lofty green perch, throwing names.

    Tony.

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      Rod.Stuart

      SHHHHH
      Don’t start giving them ideas, Tony.

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      • #

        Rod,

        what these blah blah artists don’t know and aren’t being told is that there is no way known that any Government will actually close those large scale coal fired plants. Government’s know that is tantamount to the political death knell for them, something they will not ever tell these warmist believers.

        The minute second one large scale plant closes down as a direct result of this scare, you’ll hear just one comment.

        It won’t be ‘hear hear’. It won’t be ‘well done’. It won’t be ‘at last’. It won’t be ‘thank you’. It won’t be ‘we’re saved’.

        That one comment will be so loud that everyone will hear it collectively, wherever they are.

        It’s be this.

        What the………….!

        Tony.

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        • #
          Backslider

          But Tony, we do still get idiocy such as this: Eco Madness

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          • #

            What is worth noting in that article you linked to Backslider is the text under that first image, where Drax burns 36,000 tons of coal every day. That’s an emission of 103,000 tons of CO2 every day, or 37.6 million tons a year.

            The plants being closed down are those smaller plants emitting between 40,000 and 200,000 tons a year, around the same CO2 emissions as Drax on a time frame equivalent to 10 hours to two days of Drax operations.

            You could close a hundred of those smaller plants and still not equal the emissions from one large scale plant. Those large scale plants will stay open long long into the future.

            What also worthy of note here is that those smaller plants are being upgraded to become small gas fired plants, still emitting CO2.

            So, when you hear Governments saying that they are indeed closing coal fired plants, they’re not the entities doing that, and it’s not because they are taking action to immediately lower those emissions.

            Tony.

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          • #
            Joe V.

            The madness is upon us Tony.

            Merrill Lynch estimates 7 GW of coal-fired capacity will come offline this year in the UK.

            There are grumblings of a backlash, as the only party with an alternative position on Energy polls unprecedented support, but they are still tiny , though it is scaring some of the ruling Conservatives to start speaking out.

            The Conservatives aren’t all idiots, though many have succumbed to the riches of avarice offered them by Global Warming and like most of the national Academies of Science around the World, they are still led by Donkeys.

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            • #

              Joe V,

              again thanks for the link, and contrary to what any politician might be telling you that these three plants are closing because of those filthy CO2 emissions, the real reason is this.

              Didcot A – 46 years old

              Uskmouth B – 54 years old

              Ferrybridge C – 50 years old when it closes in 2015.

              Nothing, nothing whatsoever to do with closing because of CO2 emissions induced Climate Change.

              They’re so old, they probably have more down time than run time.

              The only despicable thing about this is that they are unreplaced.

              Tony.

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            • #
              Joe V.

              Is that the UK Govt. then blaming Europe, while in reality it is their continuing dithering and their predecessor’s lack of foresight to plan for replacement , that brought us to this ?
              The only certainty in the market seems to be that purveyors of present wind installations will continue to coin it in whether they produce power or not.
              The Windmillions, and paid for by the minions .

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        • #

          My observation of activists is that results are never really required. Activism is to make the person practicing it feel important, not to actually fix anything.

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        • #
          oeman50

          Thanks, Tony. I have had a fantasy of asking an auditorium full of Gorians to make a desicion to push an imaginary button to shut down all CO2 emitting power stations. And when they do, I shut off the lights.

          If the projections come true in England and they revert to third world status with intermittant power supply (not intermittant interruptions) due to an overdependence on wind power, the populace will demand the coal plants to be restarted. Look at the riots they just had in Inida when the power supply shut down on a sweltering day. It can happen elsewhere.

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    pat

    what happens to this after the election?

    24 May: Nth Queensland Register: Carbon farming in FNQ
    FOUR organisations across FNQ are bringing together some of Australia’s leading carbon farming specialists at this year’s Rotary FNQ Field Days at Mareeba.
    Northern Gulf Resource Management Group, Southern Gulf Catchments, Cook Shire Council and Terrain NRM are providing visitors to the field day with a jam-packed schedule of presentations and workshops, as well as technical natural resource management information and extension services.
    The groups have coordinated two full days of guest speakers which include Dr Christine Jones, an internationally renowned soil ecologist, Ben Keogh, managing director at Australian Carbon Traders, and Alan Lauder, author of the book Carbon Grazing – The Missing Link.
    Carole Sweatman, CEO of Terrain NRM, said the program of speakers will provide a wide range of information on carbon farming and soil carbon more generally.
    “The Australian Government’s Carbon Farming Initiative has supported us to bring most of these speakers to North Queensland,” Carole said…
    “The carbon farming and natural resource management tent will be at the Rotary FNQ Field Days sites 6A and 7A, and inquiries can be directed to Melanie Brennan on 0421 252 153.
    http://www.northqueenslandregister.com.au/news/agriculture/general/news/carbon-farming-in-fnq/2658694.aspx

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    pat

    23 May: Wall St Journal: AAP: Carbon tax cements concerns for Adbri
    CEMENT and lime manufacturer Adelaide Brighton expects net profit in 2013 to be flat or slightly below 2012 levels because of weak demand and the carbon tax…
    Adelaide Brighton is Australia’s biggest industrial lime producer and the ninth-largest in the world.
    The company is also the No 2 cement supplier to the Australian construction industry…
    Mr Chellew said net profit for the first half of 2013 was expected to be lower than in 2012.
    “The key contributing factors are the anticipated $3m carbon tax (not included in the first half of 2012), lower demand, particularly in Victoria and southeast Queensland, and the impact of earlier timing of planned key shutdown maintenance,” he said…

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/companies/carbon-tax-cements-concerns-for-adbri/story-fn91v9q3-1226648739552

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    pat

    if u can understand the intricacies and loopholes addressed in this piece, u r more financially astute than me:

    24 May: Bloomberg: Alessandro Vitelli: Utilities Tap Cheaper Compliance Option With UN Carbon Banking
    Utilities and refineries have retained the most flexibility among European Union industries to use lower-cost United Nations carbon offsets to comply with the bloc’s emissions caps from 2013 to 2020, according to EU data…
    Utilities in most EU nations have to buy all of their permits and offsets from this year through 2020, while industrial installations will continue to get most of their allowances for free…
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-23/utilities-tap-cheaper-compliance-option-with-un-carbon-banking.html

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    pat

    ***what goes up MUST NOT come down:

    23 May: Bloomberg: Alex Morales: Climate Scientist Hansen Turns Activist, Advocates ‘Fee’ on Carbon Pollution
    I caught up with Hansen in London last week. He was in Europe to lobby politicians to classify fuels from oil sands as more polluting than conventional fossil fuels…
    Q: Tell me your thoughts on the effectiveness of carbon pricing in Europe. The price has plummeted this year.
    A: Carbon markets are better than nothing. What’s really needed is a carbon fee, something that will go up monotonically.
    ***It should not go up and down and up and down. That’s good for traders and bankers; people who will make money from a fluctuating market. But that’s not the objective. We really don’t want big banks in the problem. They don’t add anything to the problem except cost.
    So what you want to have is a fee on carbon that you collect from the fossil fuel companies.
    Q: You’re reluctant to call it a tax?
    A: I would call it a fee if it’s revenue-neutral. If you give the money to the public, then it’s not a tax. It’s a fee collected from fossil fuel companies with the money distributed to the public. I would distribute it as an equal amount to every legal resident of the country…
    Q: The warmest temperatures since 1998, which were in 2005 and 2010, have all been pretty similar. How can we explain that we’ve not had a significantly warmer year than 1998 since then?
    A: When you look at a short period, it’s hard to have statistically significant warming. But the rate has been less in the past decade than the prior three decades.
    It’s normal. There’s no reason to believe that the temperature is going to be linear. There are a couple of reasons to believe it would be less. Since the 1970s we have been measuring the sun very precisely, and we know that this last solar cycle is the weakest of them all.
    But there are other factors involved, some of which are not measured very well, including human-made aerosols [which cause cooling].
    Then there’s just a natural variability. We’ve had in the last few years two strong La Ninas. That’s just a natural oscillation of tropical temperature. The 1998 El Nino was a record one, and that causes warming. The La Ninas cause a global cooling. When you have a big warming at the beginning and two La Ninas at the end, that tends to give you a negative trend…
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-23/climate-scientist-hansen-turns-activist-advocates-fee-on-carbon-pollutioin.html

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    ATheoK

    I agree with Jo’s invitation to Hoyt to post his take/story here. For that matter, I think Physics girl might post her side too… (just a suggestion Jo, your decision, totally).

    Several notes;
    There are a number of ‘clicks’ and ‘abrupt background sound changes’, that I can only take as ‘editing cuts’. I suspect, as Jo mentions obliquely, that ‘select’ Physics Girl responses are edited into place as responses to Hoyt’s statements; perhaps Hoyt’s are rearranged in similar fashion. A live to the web video would be so much better.

    I do remember seeing comments by a ‘Physics Girl’ somewhere; in my mind’s eye they’re comments on a news site. My apologies, I do not remember where nor do I intend to chase down exactly where. Nor do I know if there is more than one ‘Physics Girl’ out there, (quite likely though).
    None of the Physics Girl comments that I read were particularly illuminating; nitpicking, yes. I don’t recall any ‘PG’ comments as taking on rigorous science aspects; ‘PG’ slaying comments posted by those who do not fully understand science may educate some readers but are not rebutting the many valid concerns/critiques/science of commenters struggling for real science from the CAGW alarmist crowd. If Physics Girl did provide the ‘PG’ comments that I’ve read, she needs to spend time on serious science sites. I mean, what’s the worst that she can achieve pursuing genuine science?

    I am disappointed with the climatecrapdesk team! They have solid faith and they’re making entertainment to ‘prove’ their beliefs.

    On one hand, given that Physics Girl is post doc physics I would assume that a proper matchup would’ve matched credentials and education while seeking opposing views.

    On the other hand, if the edited video has Physics Girl stumbling while confronting Hoyt then matching her against a post doc physicist knowledgeable about the science ‘proofs’ that CAGW alarmism fails to provide would’ve been a very traumatic experience for PG and the climatecrapdesk team.

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    Tim

    This is not a doco. This is a planned, scripted and edited putdown and I really don’t see why it has space here. For instance, on Hoyt: “Internet comment trolls-they make you angry-they waste your time they do more than simply make mischief – our most pernicious twitter troll (Pernicious: wicked, malevolent, spiteful, evil…) -he’s stubborn and irrational- a product and purveyor of America’s antagonistic political culture-propagandist-noisy, nosey trolls like Hoyt- he’s a little banal (Banal: trite, hackneyed, dull, boring, predictable…) his twitter feed reads like it’s from the climate denier handbook…”

    Whereas, the smart, intelligent and articulate lady with great credentials is: “A brave girl – she reels facts, with style, under pressure.”

    These guys are not into science and they studiously avoid it. It’s pure propaganda.
    .

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    Hoyt Connell

    Joanne, I enjoyed reading your review of the ClimateDesk videos. Also, I have visited your superb site many times. It is very helpful pointing out various angles to the global warming alarmist propaganda effort.
    Concning the video, James West and Tim ODonnell were a pleasure to work with and total professionals, as we filmed and interviewed for some three hours, and then another hour with Rosi with the show down. Yes, a lot was edited out, and it obviously had to be. Also, obviously a lot of “assumptions” have been made about who Hoyt is, how he thinks, and what actions he’s taken such as with prostate cancer and doctors.
    First, I got involved in the issue when our school was showing Inconvenient Truth as a factual documentary.After a number of back and forths of easily demonstrating that Inconvenient Truth was nothing but a propaganda film, to the school system’s credit, they took a more balanced approach. Then after when I continued to see the propaganda pour out of the alarmists grant grovelling organizations, I thought I would continue to study the issue and get involved in the dialogue. Where the alarmists have gone with this is astonishing. In a nutshell, I think the global warming propaganda campaign will go down as the greatest fraud ever perpetuated in science. The only thing they haven’t blamed CO2 and global warming for is bad breath. Give them time. They will get there.
    The one comparative that is completely wrong in the video is that I listened to what my doctors told me to do when we discovered I had aggressive prostate cancer. Then there is the attempt to give the alarmist climate scientists credit via a comparison.While, it could be easy to assume I relied on my doctors, nothing could be further from the truth. Do you think that a doctor is going to give you direct guidance when their world is a cacaphony of malpractice law suits? My primary sources for my decision to elect to have DaVinci Robitic surgery came from my friends who had prostate cancer and numerous research forums. My doctors, through no fault of their own were vague…such as “you need to check everything out”. Guys, if you are 50 or older, know your PSA score. There are few or no symtoms as in my case.
    What is striking is how obvious it is even to a layperson on the subject such as myself that global warming has little to do with CO2. Early on I asked my son Will who is a Penn State aerospace engineer about the power generation equivalents between man’s power generation and the sun’s energy hitting the earth. It took Will little time, and he is an expert in power equivalents, to calcaulste a ratio that is so large that the only possible conclusion is that the sun and oceans in numerous ways control our climate. But facts don’t matter now. When you point out the facts, the response is to suppress it, block the publication in the various science journals, or call you names. The global warming AGW component is now a multibillion dollar effort for grants and left wing political promotion.

    In summary, we have a theory, and it is only theory on its best day,called global warming which has been hijacked by a left wing and/or socialist political movement, where bending data is totally acceptable. The effort has morphed where this political group is attempting to implement policy via an “assumed close” as if this false theory has been proven.Ironically, what will ultimately return sanity and integrity to the climate science and physics world is climate itself as temperatures are leading the way with them having been flat for 16 years.

    —-

    Hoyt, thanks for popping in. I’ll add it to the post as an update. You did a great job, and I suspect took all the fun out of it for the other team. you can bet they would be pumping it if you had put your foot in it, or made a mistake. Cheers! – Jo

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    john robertson

    Having found time to view the 3 parts, where was the science?
    More like 3 airheads and one inquirer.
    I am curious, Hoyt did you get a chance to ask all 3 if they had read the Climate Gate Emails? The IPCC 4th report?
    I am always fascinated by believers who preach the gospel, yet never bother to read it themselves. This was the impression the videos gave me of this branch of team CAGW.

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    Alexander K

    Rereke, at #12.1
    Your idea is a brilliant summary of the modern tick-box culture imposed on almost every profession since politicians decided Management was far more important than Leadership. This comes from the arrant nonsense that is disseminated by the degree-conferring business schools such as Yale, Harvard and all the multitudinous wannabees, most of whom are staffed by academic drones who went to university straight from high school and have never had a real job that depends on making or selling a product or managed anything, apart from a good feed.
    This phenomenon was pointed out to me some years ago by a teaching colleague in the UK, an ex serving Royal Marine officer who was at that time teaching advanced maths, stats and calculus, who said that the push in the armed forces , led by politicians, was to promote managers rather than leaders to the highest ranks so that the armed forces would be more amenable to working to fulfil government objectives.
    He was attempting to explain why the top staff in State Education in the UK, by the end of the Blair/Brown Nu-labour era, were such woeful leaders

    10