JoNova

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Coldwave killing people in Russia, Britain, and the US

If a few weeks of extreme heat suggest CO2 is causing a catastrophe, then don’t a few weeks of Siberian record-breaking cold suggest the opposite?*

I bet Siberians would appreciate some global warming this winter.

People are dying of cold weather in Ireland, the UK, the US and Russia. Spare a thought for the those facing temperatures so cold that natural gas is liquifying in pipes.

Norilisk, Russia. Photo from bigpicture.ru

In the last week snow has shut 5000 schools in Britain. More than 1,000 flights have been cancelled at Heathrow, and one 25 year old dental nurse woman died in Kent. An Irish Doctor was killed with three others in an avalanche in Scotland. Seventeen died in Afghan refugee camps since the start of January. (In terms of weird weather, on January 9th it even snowed in Israel.)

“London: Extreme winter weather swept across western Europe, leaving thousands of passengers stranded at London’s main international airport and claiming several lives in Spain, Portugal, Scotland and France, including those of three Mali-bound soldiers.”

Last Friday, people were panic buying in Wales.

“With much of Britain expecting to be brought to a standstill today by a 40–hour snowstorm, shelves were left completely empty and basic items disappeared amid fears families would be left snowed in.

Supermarkets reported a “frenzy” as people stampeded along the aisles, filling their trolleys with bread, milk, vegetables and other essentials, leaving stores “virtually empty”.

Six people have died of the cold in Cook County, USA. A woman was found dead in Wisconsin and a man in Minnesota. It’s been the coldest winter in China for thirty years. Eighty-three people died a few weeks ago in Ukraine.

The worst death toll this winter comes from Russia.

“Snowpocalypse in Russia

On Friday, Moscow was on a verge of traffic collapse as more than 10 inches of snow fell on the city, which is more than half of January’s average.

Thousands of passengers were stranded overnight in the capital’s major airports, as several dozen flights were delayed.

The polar circle city of Norilsk has been buried under 10 feet of snow – entire apartment blocks, markets, stores and offices were buried under snow overnight. Banks of snow were as high as two people put together, reaching the second-story windows of some apartment buildings.

In the end of 2012, Russia saw extreme winter not witnessed since 1938. The coldest-ever December in Russia led to the evacuation of hundreds of people in Siberia, where temperatures fell below -50 degrees Celsius; Moscow also saw its coldest night ever for the season.

More than 90 Russians died during the cold snap, and more than 600 people were taken to hospital due to the extremely dangerous weather, which is 10 degrees below the December norm. Nearly 200 people have died throughout Russia as a direct result of weather-related accidents and hypothermia this season...”

[Russian Times]

 

Quiet, the masters of PR hypocrisy are at work

Environment reporters and climate commissioners are cherry picking the pain. Every hot-spell might be due to “climate change” but cold weather is just cold weather. Media outlets are projecting visions of fireballs downunder and forecasting more heatwaves to come. Even when they acknowledge that “one event can not be put down to climate change” they feed the monster: “but it is what the models predict”. Thus by spectacularly brazen bias do they pump the meme, and forget to mention that record snowfalls and minus 50C temperatures are not what the models predicted. Just ask Dr David-children-won’t-know-what-snow-is-Viner. The models can’t be a bit right on some things and a total-fail on others. If they can’t do precipitation or clouds, they can’t do the climate.

One extreme event is just noise in the system. It doesn’t tell us anything about the long term trend and says nothing about the cause…

* Cue trolls:  tell us about the models that predicted heavier snowfall (especially after it happened). Which model got global precipitation right?

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Coldwave killing people in Russia, Britain, and the US, 9.5 out of 10 based on 118 ratings

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378 comments to Coldwave killing people in Russia, Britain, and the US

  • #
    Rick Bradford

    No, no, you haven’t got it at all. Record heat is global warming, record cold is global warming.

    Remember that in these times of ice and snow to check on any elderly neighbours and check their thermostat is turned down a degree or two in order to save the planet.


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    • #
      turnedoutnice

      The reality is that the IPCC ‘consensus’ is based on incorrect physics. Correct the radiation physics to that which is taught as standard to every other scientific discipline other than Climate Alchemy and the only significant GHG warming is some water vapour side bands. There can be no significant CO2-AGW.


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      • #

        So, turnedoutnice, you’re saying there’s no logical basis for the GHE as taken as fact by the MSMedia & warmists. Add to that the lack of evidence of a causal correlation between CO2 & temperature. There is no causal correlation! Help get the word out about this must see 3 minute video where Al Gore is called out for his deception as he falsely claimed a causal correlation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK_WyvfcJyg&info=GGWarmingSwindle_CO2Lag


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      • #
        Nice One

        You forget about CO2 acting as layers. I suggest you familiarise yourself with the history of CO2 first before making more stupid comments.

        http://www.aip.org/history/climate/co2.htm#S2

        For the rest, some thngs to chew on:

        If a few weeks of extreme heat suggest CO2 is causing a catastrophe, then don’t a few weeks of Siberian record-breaking cold suggest the opposite?*

        This is a strawman argument. Climate scientists say the recent heatwave is more likely in a warmer climate, not that this one heatwave is the result of global warming. Nor do they say winters wont happen. With more moisture in the air (a result of warmer air), when it gets below zero, more snow occurs.

        The rest of your “anecdotal” evidence also has a few glaring problems.

        - Snow shutting down schools, delating planes – That’s never happened before (except a few years ago)!
        - People dying from the cold? i thought for a moment you were talking about last year
        - Snow in Jerusalem – same again, last year and 4 years before that.

        Perhaps it’s a sign of global cooling, if only the average global temps would comply. Stranger weather, that’s for sure, more extreme perhaps?

        And finally a LOL I found along the way for all you folk with great sense of humour. I know you’re out there!!!!

        CO2 kills, not the cold


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        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          Climate scientists say …

          People, whether Climate Shamans or not, can say anything.

          But where is the empirical evidence? Were is the repeatable demonstration of cause and effect?

          You just don’t have it, do you? You cannot point to anything other than the computer models for the basis of your belief system.

          Look up the term acolyte in the dictionary. It describes you to a tee.


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          AndyG55

          Damn, but you are a so much a FOOL and an IDIOT , Nonce !!

          Its a rhetoric statement, aimed at illustrating just how STUPID all the CAGW “scare” / “alarmist” statements are.

          Do………. You…………Understand…

          And you just pointed out that it ISN’T strange weather……….. then you say it is

          Make your moronic mind up, FFS !!

          Climate is continuing as it always has.. nothing untoward is happening..

          Do………. You…………Understand…


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        • #
          Nice One

          27 thumbs down yet none of you can defend the statement by turnedoutnice! Funny that.

          Rereke, still waiting for your calcs of attribution. What are your Tarot cards telling you?

          @AndyG55, Unlike YOU, my mind is convinced by the evidence. That shows that despite an overall increase in global temps, Winter still happens.

          I am also open to the idea some scientists are studying, the large expansion of ice free Arctic and how it affects the jet stream, which in turn affects the weather.

          Dr. Jennifer Francis has been studying the link between the Artic Sea Ice and the jet stream. From last September (although Francis’ research into this dates back to 2002):

          http://climatecrocks.com/2012/09/22/the-weekend-wonk-jennifer-francis-on-arctic-sea-ice/

          As temperatures over the Arctic Ocean fall with the approach of winter, the extra energy that was absorbed during summer must be released back into the atmosphere before the water can cool to freezing temperatures. Essentially, this loads the atmosphere with a new source of energy—one that affects weather patterns, both locally and on a larger scale.

          The difference in temperature between the Arctic and areas to the south is what drives the jet stream, a fast-moving river of air that encircles the northern hemisphere. As the Arctic warms faster, this temperature difference weakens, as does the west-to-east wind of the jet stream. Just as a river of water tends to meander when it reaches the gentle slopes of coastal plains, a weaker jet stream tends to have steeper north-south waves. Arctic amplification also stretches the northern tips of the waves farther northward, which favors further meandering. Meteorologists know that steeper waves are slower to shift westward.

          Global warming now has a face and a fingerprint that directly touch each of our lives. Rather than just a gradual increase in temperature, we can recognize its influence in a shift toward more extreme weather events. A warmer atmosphere also means a moister atmosphere, so any given storm will have more moisture and energy to work with, increasing the chances of flooding or heavy snows. Arctic amplification adds another mechanism to the mix, making extreme weather more likely. The loss of ice and snow in the far north may load the dice for “stuck” weather patterns, compounding potential risks for our economy, our health, and our security.

          From Feb 2012, Judith Curry (semi-skeptic):

          “Our study demonstrates that the decrease in Arctic sea ice area is linked to changes in the winter Northern Hemisphere atmospheric circulation,” said Judith Curry, chair of the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at Georgia Tech. “The circulation changes result in more frequent episodes of atmospheric blocking patterns, which lead to increased cold surges and snow over large parts of the northern continents.”

          The peer-reviewed paper can be found here,

          We conclude that the recent decline of Arctic sea ice has played a critical role in recent cold and snowy winters.

          And that’s what we’re seeing, increases in flooding in the UK and stuck weather patterns that contributed to hurricane Sandy and the heavier snow over Europe and Russia.

          The simplistic view taken by most people in this forum – “OH LOOK, REALLY COLD WEATHER, GLOBAL WARMING IS NOT HAPPENING!!!” – overlooks the global trends and the impacts that are changing the weather patterns. Smarten up chumps.


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          • #
            Rereke Whakaaro

            Nice One,

            Rereke, still waiting for your calcs of attribution. What are your Tarot cards telling you?

            I have no idea what you are on about, “Calcs of attribution”? You are obviously getting confused.

            Or perhaps I missed one of your previous comments? A reference would be nice – just one.


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          • #
            Rereke Whakaaro

            Nice One

            Rereke, still waiting for your calcs of attribution. What are your Tarot cards telling you?

            I can see that you are still confused. Pray tell, what are these, “calcs of attribution”, to which you refer?


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        • #
          Backslider

          So you think that submariners tragically dying is funny? You really should talk to a mental care professional.


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    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Remember that in these times of ice and snow to check on any elderly neighbours and check their thermostat is turned down a degree or two in order to save the planet.

      I am the elderly neighbor and believe me; I have my thermostat turned up a degree or two to save my cold, cold butt. The planet is fine, just fine.


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      • #
        Joe V.

        On Saturday night during the most anticipated cold spell in recent memory the BBC had to show us the Winter of 1963 just to remind us that Winters used to be much worse than this.

        Strewth , this was little more than a couple of inches, but by the time the Met Office had cottoned on to Piers Corbyn’s forecast from a month earlier we all knew what to expect and schools and offices were already planning to shut before the snow arrived.


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      • #
        Dennis

        Please invest in a timber/wood fired heater


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  • #
    old44

    Julia’s Carbon Tax is working well.


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    • #
      MadJak

      It sure is,

      The Upper class continue to make massive amounts of money off taxpayer subsidised rorts
      The Middle class is diminishing in size and shutting their wallets so they can pay their bills
      The GimmeGimmeGimme class is doing well

      Command economy in action. Just like it was planned


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  • #
    Mattb

    I guess this is why they call it climate change.


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    • #
      Jambo

      Couldn’t agree more Matt. This is exactly why they stopped calling it global warming and switched to climate change. To cover their bases and keep the gravy train rolling along even if the planet cools. Whichever spin-meister imitated the change deserved an award named after him/her.


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      • #
        KinkyKeith

        And following all that change Jambo, it is now morphing into its’ new reincarnation, ECOLOGY Science.

        I assume that “ECOLOGY Science” is the management and preservation of our beautiful planet by a system in which Global Warming is just one small facet of the money gobbling vehicle.

        KK


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        • #
          AndyG55

          I thought they were heading for the “Sustainability” word.


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          • #
            KinkyKeith

            Yes Andy, that’s the word I was looking for Sustainable Ecology or Ecological Sustainability.

            Doesn’t matter what you call it as long as it gets the funding.

            KK


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        • #
          CameronH

          Kinky, The actual field of pseudo science that has spawned all of this nonsense is “Conservation Biology”.

          Conservation Biology has as its core concepts the Ecosystem which is maintained in a Balance by its Biodiversity. If this Balance is maintained then the Ecosystem will be Sustainable. An Ecosystem can be bought back into Balance by its Biodiversity from any Natural impacts and perturbations but not from any Human impacts, which are deemed unnatural. Any potential Human impacts, therefore, need to be vetted and approved by the Great and the Good from the high moral horse of their environmental activism in such groups and the WWF and Greenpeace. This is why Global Warming needs to be a human impact.

          None of these concepts are empirically verifiable concepts. There have been ongoing arguments and debates even about what an ecosystem is, how you identify one in the real world, what are the boundaries, where does one ecosystem end and another begin? It is the same with Biodiversity. There is no way to determine this empirically and all of the work on biodiversity and species extinctions are done using computer models. These models are based on the flimsiest of assumptions that have come from the study of isolated and small island populations. Their simplistic view of the world is that a human impact that affects X square meters of land will automatically result in the extinction of Y% of species. This will upset the “balance of nature” which will be “Unsustainable”. All of this eco-sinning will greatly upset Gaia or Mother Nature who will visit her wrath upon us with all types of plagues and cataclysims. Can you believe it? How close is this to Intelligent Design which simply states that the earth and its biosphere (ecosystems) was created by some Supernatural Being (Gaia) to a set design which is relatively unchanging through time. It is interesting that the Great and the Good from the enviro-fascist crowd are usually atheists who also strongly believe in Evolutionary Biology which is basically the opposite to Conservation Biology. I believe the term for this is cognitive dissonance.


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          • #
            llew Jones

            I’m mildly fascinated by this topic. There is little doubt that this attitude to the “oneness” of nature is essentially a contemporary version of Paganism.

            The older manifestations of this nature worship religion, much like the modern Pagans had their sacrifices, even human blood sacrifices, to appease the gods of nature.

            Contemporary Pagans are prepared to offer up humans to those same gods (e.g. biodiversity) either through a tremendous diminution of human life style or the obliteration of about 6+ billion of us.

            One thing that is of interest is that science and its post enlightenment partner, technology, prospered in the context of the so called cultural mandate.

            Strangely that mandate has its origin in a theistic religion. e.g. be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it… and have dominion…

            That tradition postulates the existence not of a perfect Earth but a flawed “fallen” one in which humanity, not nature, is the focus. Subduing the Earth and making it livable for the current 7 billion inhabitants has been actively pursued and accelerated by science and technology. That perhaps is why contemporary Pagans, such as the Greens, seek to reverse the Industrial Revolution.

            It seems to me that given the anti-pagan, theistic presuppositions that undergird the post enlightenment technological advancement, of which we all are heirs, it is not surprising many atheists are naturally predisposed to Paganism and are activists of or sympathetic to the great current pagan cause, CAGW.


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          • #
            Mattb

            What a pile of opinionated clap trap.


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          • #
            Mattb

            “There is little doubt that this attitude to the “oneness” of nature is essentially a contemporary version of Paganism.

            The older manifestations of this nature worship religion, much like the modern Pagans had their sacrifices, even human blood sacrifices, to appease the gods of nature.”

            You mean like Harvest Festival in the Catholic Church. All things bright and beautiful, all creatures great and small… etc etc


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          • #
            Truthseeker

            Mattb,

            What I say is a pile of opinionated clap trap.

            There fixed it for you.


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          • #
            llew Jones

            “You mean like Harvest Festival in the Catholic Church.”

            No that is a slightly different ball game. We call that syncretism. A bit like Christmas and Easter all stolen from the pagans. Hang around and we’ll help you with your education.

            “All things bright and beautiful, all creatures great and small… etc etc”

            etc etc yeah.. yeah.. but who made em? Your little foray into hymnology, for your education mb, is called an irrelevancy.


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          • #
            KinkyKeith

            Yes. that’s the one I heard mentioned: “Conservation Biology”.

            What a great vehicle.

            KK


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          • #
            KinkyKeith

            And Llew,

            What’s wrong with the Harvest Festival?

            We used to have it in the Congregational Church I went to as a kid,

            just appreciating the fact that we had food.

            I like food.

            KK :)


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          • #
            Mattb

            Lle you seem to think I was unaware of borrowings from paganism?

            To paraphraise KinkyKeith “What’s wrong with Paganism?”

            And Llew… yes the lord god made em… he was obviously a bit of a greenie himself.


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          • #
            KinkyKeith

            Here goes Mattew again; putting constructs on things that are only in his mind.

            Harvest Festival was only ever explained to us as being thankful for life and food and shelter.

            It seems now that like the “greenhouse” effect , the Harvest Festival is to be given an image makeover with all sorts of hidden subversive attachments.

            Go Greenies!

            KK ;)


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      • #
        Rereke Whakaaro

        The organisation I work for tracks such things as changes in meme.

        The change from Global Warming to Climate Change took less than a Fortnight, world-wide. That is pretty impressive. Some might say it was done with military precision.

        There is obviously a command structure behind the alarmism, that people are not supposed to see, or recognise. Sometimes you can be too efficient for your own good.


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        • #
          Considerate Thinker

          Certainly looks just like that to me Rereke,pushed on by groups like Getup and other clever constructs funded by government hand-outs? via arms length funding trains? Easiest to track was union sponsorship re-allocated from socially smoothed and deniable, just looking after the members interest, general funding support. Then there are the government and non government paid spin doctors who play the media.

          Will be an interesting and bitter/dirty election campaign as these well funded partisan bodies emerge from the shadows.

          mark my words….


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        • #
          Tim

          Now with black carbon/soot emerging as a recognised problem – watch for the word ‘carbon’ to be used as a combined threat. A great opportunity for PR masters to combine Co2 and carbon as the ‘Carbon warming threat’ to a naive public.


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        • #
          KinkyKeith

          Rereke

          you must work for an interesting organisation

          KK :)


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      • #

        The planet isn’t cooling. Stop looking at peaks and look at average temperatures.


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        • #
          Heywood

          Hasn’t been warming for more than a decade either.

          Even James Hansen (NASA) agrees.

          You consider Hansen a reputable scientist don’t you? Or do you know better?

          A guess by now you have toddled back to your blog to promote the merits of race-based selection to the ALP Senate positions.


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        • #
          Streetcred

          maxi … shove your head into the freezer, close the door, and leave it there … it’s not helping you here at all.


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        • #
          Louis Hissink

          Yes Maxine, the earth continues to return to the thermal state it was at before the unexpected cooling caused by the Little Ice Age.

          Now when the Greenlanders can start growing crops in areas they used to before the LIA, and we find the temperature is still rising, then maybe we have a problem, but right now temperatures are cooler than they were then, and there isn’t a problem.

          There is, for the climatically challenged.


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        • #
          Geoffrey Cousens

          Max.;as usual,sublimely ignorant and arrogant all at once.Whatever and wherever its happening,C.O.2 has absolutely no bearing on it.Tiresome”Maxine”.


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        • #
          sophocles

          Maxine states:

          The planet isn’t cooling. Stop looking at peaks and look at average temperatures.

          Do you know something Prof. Jones (head of HadCRU at UEA) doesn’t? In an interview published on the BBC’s website (www.bbc.com) on 5th February 2008 he said:

          From 2003 to date [05/02/2008] it is cooling at 0.03 degrees per decade …

          Bad luck Maxine. It’s cooling.
          Even Dr. Phil Jones says so.

          … and Russia is having another mild winter …?
          Yeah, right.


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          • #
            Mattb

            Not so:
            http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/phil-jones-earth-cooling-sunday-mail-0351.html

            and lets look at what he actually said:

            B – Do you agree that from 1995 to the present there has been no statistically-significant global warming

            Yes, but only just. I also calculated the trend for the period 1995 to 2009. This trend (0.12C per decade) is positive, but not significant at the 95% significance level. The positive trend is quite close to the significance level. Achieving statistical significance in scientific terms is much more likely for longer periods, and much less likely for shorter periods.

            C – Do you agree that from January 2002 to the present there has been statistically significant global cooling?

            No. This period is even shorter than 1995-2009. The trend this time is negative (-0.12C per decade), but this trend is not statistically significant.

            http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8511670.stm


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          • #
            Mattb

            And just to be clear:

            BBQ question: Do you agree that from January 2002 to the present there has been statistically significant global cooling?

            Prof Jones’ Answer: No.

            No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.No.


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          • #
            Backslider

            And to be even clearer:

            B – Do you agree that from 1995 to the present there has been no statistically-significant global warming?
            Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes


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      • #
        Mattb

        It was one of george bush’s advisors, who deemed that Global Warming was too scary.


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    • #
      Bob Massey

      And exactly how has the Climate Changed Matt ? As we have stated in the past the extreme cold or hot events we have experienced lately are not outside range of the anecdotal evidence. Just because our records only go back 150 years max doesnt mean this is outside the norm.

      “They Called it Climate Change” because it suits the agenda.


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      • #
        Mattb

        Actually Boris and many here think that this cold is the start of a new ice age.


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        • #
          Backslider

          Who exactly are those “many” here? Where exactly did Boris say that?

          One thing I can say: At least there is some evidence for that theory :-P


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          • #
            Mattb

            Slider – jo put it in nice big font at the top of the last thread, in case you missed it:
            “It’s snowing, and it really feels like the start of a mini ice age”


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          • #
            Backslider

            “feels like” != “is”…. why are you so desperate?

            How about you go back down the bottom of this thread and start giving us the *models* that predicted this cold weather…. thank you.


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          • #
            Mattb

            his “feels like” is a segue in to introducing scientists who think that is exactly what is happening. Yes he has a pollies forked tongue but the intent is clear.


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            Backslider

            Still waiting for the models Mattb…… or is it all just warmist’s forked tongue?


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          Streetcred

          Answer the question, “… exactly how has the Climate Changed Matt ? ” When you’ve done that and supported it with credible links (don’t pop sks onto us, it is discredited and thoroughly debunked around the world, then you can move to the next point about what you think the rest of us attribute the cooler weather to.


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        • #

          My interpretation of what Boris was saying was not that he had switched sides. Rather, there is a huge anomaly between what the global warming hypothesis predicted and the actual events. Also that Piers Corbyn should be listened to, as his long-term weather predictions (using solar influences) are better than the Met Office, under the sway of the human-caused global warming. But – in true politicians style – says we should keep an open mind on these issues.


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      Ian

      You know Mattb I cannot work out whether you are a grown up or not. The cold weather is obviously cold weather as all of those on your side of the debate are saying climate change is going to lead to warming of anything up to 6C with attendant bush fires and drought and rising sea levels. As you know the Australian press are blaming the current hot weather on climate change. So how can this catastrophic warming climate in the Southern hemisphere, suddenly change in the northern hemisphere to become a catastrophic cooling climate? Have global CO2 levels suddenly dropped to cause this cooling? Will this cooling spread to the Southern hemisphere? Or will the hot weather spread to the Northern hemisphere? Weather my dear Mattb is not the same as climate, a fact which it seems you haven’t quite got your head around just yet. Incidentally, have you answered the questions I asked you earlier?


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        AndyG55

        “Or will the hot weather spread to the Northern hemisphere”

        I’m betting it will take about 5-6 months, but the cold will also spread to the SH during the same time period.


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        Mattb

        Sorry what questions are these?


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        Rereke Whakaaro

        Will this cooling spread to the Southern hemisphere? Or will the hot weather spread to the Northern hemisphere?

        Well, actually, the world has two climate systems, one on each hemisphere. There is debate over how much interaction there actually is between them. But it is generally agreed that they are not perfectly mixed.

        This is one reason why having “global climate change” is an oxymoron. “Hemispheric climate change” may be more appropriate, but it makes for a terrible sound bite.


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      Ace

      Cold weather in Russia = “Climate Change”. !!!!!!


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      Byron

      Mattb,
      climate change ? really? sheesh You`re really out of the groove aren`t You ? If You were anymore unhip Your bum would fall off . Global Warming and Climate change are sooooo passe , All the best people are calling it climate disruption now . Covers all bases that way . Global warming is fraught with all sorts of problems if it doesn`t actually ,well….warm .And climate change , well that kinda fizzles if it doesn`t actually change . Climate disruption however is good to go if it warms ,cools or stays the same, it`s a due to CO2 induced disruption

      (Sarc btw for any newbies)


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        mc

        Byron @ 3.5.

        All the best people are calling it climate disruption now .

        Great line about what the best people are saying. With your permission I will use it for a new line of funky t-shirts I am designing. Pretty soon all the best people will be wearing t-shirts with the logo, “All the best people are calling it climate disruption now”. (sarc).


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        Ace

        Thats all spot on mate. However, isnt it dandy that “Climate Disruption” sounds so pathetic, like that old favourite of the British railway companies “leaves on the line”, “disruption of services”…a glitch, a blip, a pecadillo, a puny pathetic climb-down. They are welcome to use the expression. In fact I am going to start using it myself as of now.


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        AndyG55

        At least Big Al’s “dirty weather” meme doesn’t seem to have gained much traction.

        Taking Rereke’s comment at 3.1.2, that probably indicates he is not one of the prime directors behind the fraud, just being used and paid heaps for it, one way or another.


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        Backslider

        It pissed down rain during my golf game the other day…. darn that climate disruption!


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      Shevva

      Sorry mattb you don’t get to change the name just because the first one wasn’t to your liking it was, is and always wil be CAGW.

      You also can’t once every single one of your models fails then make it up as you go along. Your Ego really is bigger than your intallignce. ‘I’m saving the world, bwhahahahhahaha’, strokes cat.


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      AndyG55

      Seriously? You aren’t really trying to pull that spin again are you.

      Maybe you should stand on your head while you say it !!

      The CAGW idea was always that CO2 caused back radiation that warms the atmosphere. That is what they still preach.

      But they have always been, and always will be, manifestly WRONG !!


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      MadJak

      But Mattb,

      The Climate wouldn’t be the climate unless it changed!

      The name and the context of it’s use deliberately implies that it is somehow abnormal for the climate to change.

      So I call Bullshit on that name (as I have done in the past)


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        Mattb

        “The Climate wouldn’t be the climate unless it changed!”
        Of course it would be. I’m not sure you know what climate means.


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          Streetcred

          No, no, no, Matt !! … climate does change, like the weather, in response to many external drivers. It oscillates in time from slightly cooler to slightly warmer and so forth … but never the same.


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            Mattb

            But if climate didn’t change, it would still be the climate. If weather didn’t change it would still be weather. I didn’t say it didn’t change, I just said it would still be climate even if it didn’t change.


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          MadJak

          Mattb,

          I think you’re just trying to pick an argument.

          If you truly think that the climate could ever not change in any way it is you that is failing to grasp what the climate is.


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            Mattb

            If the statement “The Climate wouldn’t be the climate unless it changed!” wasn’t bullshit then I’d have nothing to pick an argument with.

            “If you truly think that the climate could ever not change in any way”
            What in god’s name would ever have given you that impression?


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      The mark of any science (or even non-sciences like history and theology) used to be to more clearly understand the subject matter through ever more refined distinctions and classifications. Climatology is entirely different. Climatology changes terms to fudge the subject matter. It ever fuzzier analysis of the past data, and more opaque methods of reconciling past predictions to out turns.
      Use terms that fail to distinguish between natural and human-caused climate change is not a mark of science, nor a mark of more general scholarly study.


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      Crakar24

      I gave you a thumbs up MattB because that was funny maybe there is hope for you yet.


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        Mattb

        Crakar you spend too much time reading my posts – I’m glad someone occasionaly gets it.


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        Streetcred

        Crak … there is absolutely no excuse for giving Matt a thumbs up for anything. jb is a different story because he doesn’t claim to know much and actually has the occasional lucent thought as he is not sufficiently brainwashed to know otherwise.


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          Crakar24

          Street cred,

          Generally i would agree but i have been rather harsh on MattB of late and i did see his comment as an attempt at humour (i may be wrong) but still he made me laugh and for that i gave him a thumbs up.


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    crist

    Despite the frenzy being whipped up by the media the snowfall in the UK is nothing unusual. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem to take much for schools to close or people to start panic buying. The UK does not cope well with snow, because although it is not unusual it is infrequent, a distinction which many commentators fail to grasp.


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      Shevva

      I think the schools shutting are just Elf&Safety issues, can’t have Britney slipping on ice at school now can we and if they do it at home well that’s social services problem to take them into care.

      I also have a sneaking suspision that a good percentage of teachers would of simply phoned in sick so good old Gove is just dodging a snowball.


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      Mark D.

      snowfall in the UK is nothing unusual.

      Righto, but the “experts” said there would be no more of it.


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        crist

        Sure, and now that the experts’ prediction has been proven baseless, the message has changed so that what is in fact reasonably typical weather for a northern European country is being described in almost apocalyptic terms. In particular I’ve noticed that snow depths are routinely described in centimetres rather than inches, presumably because 5 cm sounds more impressive than 2 inches.


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          Owen Morgan

          “In particular I’ve noticed that snow depths are routinely described in centimetres rather than inches, presumably because 5 cm sounds more impressive than 2 inches.”

          Good point!


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        Greg Cavanagh

        I get it. Snow is a thing of the past, our children won’t know what it is. So now when snow falls, its extreme and unusual (since children don’t know what it is… or something….).


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        Mattb

        The “expert” actually also said that there would be heavy snow falls in the future. I note he is no longer in academia and that is probably because he was a hack.


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      Roy Hogue

      The UK does not cope well with snow, because although it is not unusual it is infrequent, a distinction which many commentators fail to grasp.

      Unfortunately that failure to cope well describes a lot of places where snow is a regular thing, including Washington DC.

      You would think that our Capitol City and its suburbs could manage to do a better job but no, they don’t. I was there one January for two weeks. About six inches of snow had just fallen and it stayed everywhere for that whole two weeks. To be fair, major downtown streets had been plowed but there was no effort to remove snow blocking parking, etc. So getting around — after all, I was a tourist after work — was a bit difficult. The major highway, the beltway as it’s called, was never plowed. My motel never made an effort to plow the parking lot, which soon became ice.

      To make it even dicier, some drivers handled the snow like it was a sunny 80 degree (F) day. Fun stuff!

      I finally asked if that was standard practice and the answer was yes. I was glad to leave.


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      Crist makes an important distinction. Snow in the UK is not unusual, but it is infrequent. People take time to adjust to new conditions. Some, like this driver in South Wales on Sunday did not even take the basic step of clearing the snow from the windshield. In Britain snow is still too infrequent to justify snow tyres or snow chains on cars. So 2 to 5cm of snow is sufficient to close schools. In South Wales it was up to 30cm.
      Extreme weather is a relative concept. In Britain any snow is as extreme as maximum temperatures above 28 Celsius. But in terms of mortality, injury, general inconvenience or simple unpleasantness, the cold is worse.


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        Ian

        “In Britain any snow is as extreme as temperatures above 28C”. So is fog and heavy rain and floods and leaves on railway lines and strong winds and heavy seas and sharp frosts. Not only have all these caused chaos in the past, they do so now and will continue to do so in the future as Britain never seems able to put in place measures for dealing with these “unforeseen” events


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        • #

          It is not worthwhile putting in place the measures for many of these things. For frequent events, like flooding on a flood plain with lots of houses it is worthwhile. There are flood defenses that protect my house and thousands of others by the River Mersey in Manchester for instance. But maintaining a large fleet of gritting lorries to be used 20 times a year on every mile of road is not.
          The infrequency and the small scale of impacts makes most extreme weather uneconomic to more fully counter. As for leaves on the line, I once worked for a company that developed an enzyme that would quickly digest the leaves. Unfortunately, it also digested much else, so was not put into production.


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    Dave

    .
    The question is:

    Tell us about the models that predicted heavier snowfall (especially after it happened). Which model got global precipitation right?

    Answer:

    No answer available until data converted to “current snow record adjustment” and then it will be available. Never ever before thast please. Models only work if the past is available to change models to validate the current warmmer, wetter wets, colder colds, snowier snows, icier ices, cyclier cyclones, and Artic faster melting melts.

    Model currently under construction to suit the ideals of the JBs, MattyBs, Nice Ones, Maxines, Grads, James Rosses et al to ensure all funding is correctly directed to their relevant departments and bank accounts.


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    Amfortas

    The 1970′s predictions. At last!! The Ice Age.

    They told us so !


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    What gets me is they tell us that they know the cause, supposedly the emissions of CO2.

    They know the source of those emissions, and they keep telling us that if they are not stopped, it will lead to a runaway disaster of monumental proportions.

    So, are they taking drastic measures to stop those emissions?

    Well, no, all they are doing is talking about it.

    It’s like something somebody said in an earlier Thread.

    Doctor, I have this broken arm, and as you can see the bone is poking through the skin.

    Let’s see if a Panadol will fix that shall we. In the meantime, let’s discuss what could happen if we just leave that bone poking out through the skin. I’ll discuss it with some of my colleagues and we’ll form a Committee to discuss the ramifications. In the meantime, you just carry on as usual.

    Same with those people who come here and talk talk talk.

    To you guys, (and you know who you are, and we know who you are) then do something. Remove yourself and your family from the electricity grid to assist with actual lowering of those emissions. Lobby at your work places to take them off the grid too. Tell your political party of choice to shut down those power plants. Tell them to stop sending coal and iron overseas. Tell them to do something.

    Don’t just talk about it.

    Actually bloody well do something.

    Tony.


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      Rick Bradford

      Not fair, Tony!

      Leonardo DiCaprio certainly plans to do something:

      “I would like to improve the world a bit. I will fly around the world doing good for the environment,” added DiCaprio, in an interview with Germany’s mass circulation daily Bild

      Not a hint of irony, it seems …..


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      rukidding

      “Target Atmospheric CO2: Where Should Humanity Aim?
      James Hansen
      Stabilizing atmospheric CO2 and climate requires that net CO2 emissions approach zero (10),
      because of the long lifetime of CO2.”

      So just whip in and close all those coal fired generators down will you Tony.
      He wants all coal fired power stations closed by 2030.I wonder if he has mentioned to the Chinese that those coal fired power stations they are building need to be closed down in 17 years time.


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      Tony-be careful what you suggest. In the US, west coast “saviours of the planet” are protesting shipping NG and coal to China, implying they will not allow shipping out of their ports (not sure how that works with states and federal rights, but we are in a really lousy political climate at the moment, so who knows?) This nonsense will continue unless someone has the will to cut off NG and coal sales to these states, along with any electricity that MIGHT have been generated using coal or NG. I don’t see it happening soon. What you are suggesting IS happening, most definitely.


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      • #

        Let ‘em try stopping those power plants. Just let ‘em try.

        There will be chaos like you’ve never seen.

        There’s nothing to replace them with, literally nothing.

        All it will take is just one week, and this whole debate will be done and dusted.

        I just wish that one large plant operator would have the cojones to actually do just that, shut his plant off for one week.

        Tony.


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          Roy Hogue

          I want exactly the same thing, Tony. The sooner the rubber meets the road the sooner the reality check will happen.

          Let them act, not talk.


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          Ace

          I think thats the premise of Atlas Shrugs. If all the “one per cent” withdraw their labour…be it nowt so much as signing cheques…the other 99% are rapidly fecwed.

          But Im afraid it wont happen like that. Everything is going down into chaos and misery for almost everyone, but so slowly that like the apocryphal Frog in a boiling pan, people will just keep adapting to it as though its “normal”.

          Environmentalism’s design for the future is exactly as George Orwell described it in 1984: a boot perpetually treading in the face of Humanity.

          So far they are succeeding. Things are going to have to get very, very, very bad for all of us before it can change.


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          bobl

          Actually Tony, I commented a while ago that all power stations made uneconomic by the carbon tax (and that’s a lot of them) should shut down for a week (all at the same time) and then lets see how Jules likes her carbon Tax – Sorry Victoria, you’ll be the first blown off the grid.


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            Can you now see why they’re calling for the introduction of Smart Meters, (and notice it’s only for the residential sector) and bear with me here, as that opening sentence looks pretty obscure.

            The purpose of an ETS is to place a cap on CO2 emissions and then lower that cap each year.

            At the end of year one, the cap gets lowered, and not just for coal fired plants that hum along 24/7/365, but for all the other Peaking Power plants that only operate for a few hours each day when the peak arrives as everyone gets home from work.

            So, those large scale coal fired plants burn the absolute minimum amount of coal they can to generate their electricity. So, lowering their cap means (no questions asked) they then generate less electricity. That electricity is calculated so that just what is required is being generated plus a small factor on top of that in case of sudden large demands.

            So now we have large scale plants generating less electricity, That has to be made up from somewhere, and it would be those Peaking power plants being asked to run for longer periods.

            But hang on a minute, they too are subject to their own cap as well, so instead of them being asked to supply more, they also will be supplying less.

            Get the picture now.

            Year two and the cap gets lowered again.

            Year three and the cap gets lowered again.

            Etcetara, etcetera, etcetera.

            They can’t call on God to make the wind blow harder, and the Sun sets just as Peaking Power kicks in.

            So let’s see now. All the calls on the ‘blower’ have resulted in no one capable of supplying the extra power.

            Why?

            Because if they exceed their allowed cap, they are fined by 1.5 times the carbon credit cost of that excess amount, they also need to purchase extra credits to make up the excess, also at 1.5 times the credit cost, and then on top of that their next year’s cap is lowered further by the amount of the excess.

            See now how plant operators will say a flat out “NO” when asked to supply extra power.

            So now we have demand greater than supply. To stop the inevitable cascading plant failure, and remember the monumental failure in the US in the late 80′s early 90′s when half the Eastern States were blacked out, some for as long as ten days as plants failed one after the other from overload, and then took days to come back up.

            To stop that cascading failure, then load shedding comes into play.

            Essentials are immune, like the water supply, the rail system, hospitals, emergency services, every high rise building, (all of them work places) all Industry, work places, all the Major shopping malls, (try telling Coles and Woolies that their fridges will be shut down indefinitely) traffic control and lighting.

            So what does that leave us then?

            The easy out. Disconnect everyone else, and with the flick of a switch, all those Smart Meters immediately isolate vast swathes of power consumers. Then it’s the residential sectors, starting in the (usually poorer) outer suburbs, regional and rural areas.

            See what the future looks like under an ETS.

            By the way, those plants that exceed their cap, it’s just a monetary amount they pay the Government, the 1.5 fine, the 1.5 extra credit purchase, and the lowering of the cap.

            Note how it’s not designed to lower emission, but is just a revenue raising artifice for the Government. The killer point in all this. If this eventuates, then (at a cost to be repaid later) the Government will bail out the plant so it can keep operating, and this is actually enshrined in the Legislation.

            Note how the Government doesn’t want to achieve the aim of the ETS, (the lowering of emissions) but just to make as much money out of it as possible.

            Now, MattB, now Maxine, now John Brooks, now Ross James, now others of their persuasion, keep rattling on about the Science. However, this is the end result of what you advocate.

            Hey you guys, lead the way will you, You go first hey! After all, it’s what you want. Abide by your principles and make a stand. Stand by your Science. Show some guts. Until you actually do that, you are not part of the solution, but in fact, part of the problem, one of your own making.

            Don’t tell us. SHOW US.

            Tony.


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      Grant (NZ)

      Tony,

      My suggestion is that instead of a tax or an ETS the Government, if they believed one jot of the rhetoric, would say:

      We are putting an immediate ban on any and every activity that is not essential to life. We are banning all entertainment – movie making, music, sport.

      All these activities involve CO2 emissions in their production and consumption.

      We will ban the use of the Internet for any activity other than commerce. There will be no YouTube and Flickr and Facebook. These too involve emissions in their production and consumption.

      All non-essential travel is also banned. No one will be able to take holidays – domestic or international doesn’t matter, it is not essential for life.

      Okay! I hear everyone screaming – that is going to involve mass unemployment. Movie actors, and professional sports people will be out of work immediately. Pretty well all the dole queues will be filled with celebrities (former celebrities actually because no one will be able to recognise them). But I am sure we can find ways of employee this mass of extra labour in more manualisation of currently mechanised operations. I can just picture the former professional All Blacks forming a hay making gang to travel round the country with scythes and pitchforks. And our former acting talent could turn their hand to entertaining children in person rather than via mass media.


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        Crakar24

        Its worse than we thought Grant (from the land of the long white cloud) There is an ad currently screening on TV here in Oz which enables you to create your own fizzy drinks.

        I cannot imagine how Guliblard could allow the importation of thousands of canisters of death? How could we in this day and age recklessly hand out bottles carbon pollution to the general public and say “here take these and release some planet smashing pollution”. I know the Australian public on the whole are too stupid to know the difference but surely the government should know better.


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          Grant (NZ)

          I suspect the ruling class is aware of the income they receive from the production of carbonated beverages. What are the French going to do when they realise they will have to cease production of Champagne.


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          • #
            rukidding

            Grant we don’t have to be as servere as you suggest just for a trial lets ban all sport that requires artificial light to be played and see how that goes.Then if that is a roaring success we can move on to some of your more extreme suggestions.
            Bring Australia to a halt what could go wrong. :-)


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            Crakar24

            CO2 is used not just in the production of champagne, CO2 is pumped into the vats where they hold the red wine for a period of years where it matures before being bottled. The reason why they use CO2 is because………wait for it…………..wait for it……………wait for it…………..the reason why is because it is heavier than air.

            You see you dont want air to make contact with the wine otherwise it will go off just like when you leave a bottle of wine open overnight it tastes like crap the next day.


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        • #
          Streetcred

          I know the Australian public on the whole are too stupid to know the difference but surely the government should know better.

          You see, Crak, there is the rub … the government comprises bureaucrats that in the main would not survive the private sector, and the pollies in government all come out of the unions and haven’t done an honest day’s work in their lives … seems to me that it is the stupid ones that are running the country. ;)


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            Crakar24

            I disagree Streetcred pollies are slimy, despicable creatures but they are not stupid. They did not get where they are today based on stupidity.

            They know where their bread is buttered it is the stupid people of this country that voted them in, in fact i would not be surprised if the ALP get voted back in this year that is how stupid we really are.


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      Mattb

      Being on a grid is efficient. That is why they exist.


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      • #
        wayne, s. Job

        No Matt B it is inefficient with many losses but coal is so abundant that the losses are worth the effort


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          Mattb

          THINK Wayne, THINK. If it was more efficient to have homes with small coal fired generators then WE WOULD HAVE THEM!!!! In fact many off grid areas are deisel generator powered but when the grid is available they are connected AS IT IS MORE EFFICIENT. Why else would it be?


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          • #

            Mattb,

            at long last.

            Thank you.

            How nice it is to see you standing up for large scale coal fired power.

            Where you say the following:

            …..to have homes with small coal fired generators…..

            (and I’m not taking you out of context)
            well that proves to me you have zero understanding of how coal ‘makes’ electricity.

            As a householder, you will need to arrange for regular coal deliveries. You’ll need a scrubber. You’ll need a crusher to convert the coal to powder. You’ll need an injector for that powdered coal. You’ll need an air injector. You’ll need a high temperature furnace. You’ll need a boiler, and with that boiler, a pressuriser for the steam. You’ll need a turbine. You’ll need a generator. You’ll need a regulator.

            Now do you see why engineers have more CDF than you.

            You Matt, are connected to the grid with those large scale coal fired power plants.

            Your workplace, and the Council you are a representative of, are connected to that grid.

            You Mattb, are part of the problem.

            You rave on about the solution and the Science behind it, and yet you blithely contribute towards that so called problem, without doing anything about it.

            And then in the same breath, you stand up for coal fired power.

            Your side claims rooftop solar is part of the answer, and then, when you get those systems on your roofs, you bloody well stay connected to the grid, still consuming two thirds of your electricity from it.

            You hype wind, and then rely on CO2 emitting sources to support that grid when the wind doesn’t blow.

            You hype large scale solar power, and then rely on those other plants to support them when they no longer generate electricity.

            Make up your mind.

            If you want less CO2 emissions, make a stand Mattb, and do something.

            All we get from you is talk.

            I’m glad you come here to Joanne’s blog.

            You shine a very bright light on the sheer and utter complete hypocrisy of your side of the debate you say is over.

            Tony.


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            Mattb

            Tony – rest of your post aside, yes it would indeed be absurd to not be connected to a grid. even my solar panels are more efficient when I’m on the grid as there is no need for me to find storage . Yes yes I’d prob not bother with them if I knew then what I knew now but ahh well. Yes I’m part of the problem, but individual action cannot solve this problem. Tony you are part of the problem because you’d rather have a 10 paragraph anti-Mattb rant even when you bloody well agree with me!


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    Shevva

    Note to self. comment stating your can’t even spell from a troll.


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    Sonny

    Cue Maxine the Moronic Maltese to explain how cold air from the warming melting arctic is cooling down the Northern Hemisphere.

    Keep in mind Maxine, there are Engineers here, myself included who have studied the mechanisms of heat transfer.


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    David

    Snow in January in the UK…
    Its what us Pomms usually describe as – er – ‘Winter’….


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    And from March 2000

    However, the warming is so far manifesting itself more in winters which are less cold than in much hotter summers. According to Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia,within a few years winter snowfall will become “a very rare and exciting event”.

    “Children just aren’t going to know what snow is,” he said.


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  • #

    Since only anomalies count in climate change doctrine, a rise up or a drop down would both be evidence, wouldn’t it?


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    Eyal Porat

    Hey, people, it snows in Israel (and Jerusalem) almost every year! Sometimes even two or three times.
    What’s so extreme in a few centimeters of snow in a city more than 800 meters above sea level in winter time?
    These people are stooping so low their noses are about to meet the ground.


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    Roy Hogue

    Snow in Israel; who would have believed it? But do not fear! Obama is now the second coming of Jesus The Christ and will soon fix everything for us. Yes, it’s now official.

    Catch it soon because I don’t know how much longer that cover page will be up.

    The nursery is now run by the children. I want my real nanny. Oh please give me back my real nanny!


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  • #
    Roy Hogue

    In case you didn’t catch the inaugural address, Obama did indeed promise once again to save the world… …sort of. :-(


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    • #
      Andrew McRae

      Saving the world from the guilty pleasures of prosperity, I heard.

      Perhaps if he doubles the rate of drone strikes per month he’ll win two Nobel Peace prizes?


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      • #
        Roy Hogue

        Before he was elected he decried the drone strikes ordered by Bush. It was politically expedient. Now he orders more drone strikes than Bush ever did. It is politically expedient.

        Obama is a shameless whore if that’s what you’re hinting at. :-)


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          Crakar24

          I heard someone say he is a cross between MLK and Lincoln, not sure what they meant by that i know MLK once said “I have a dream” and Obama once said “I have a drone” Lincoln went to war to save African/Americans from slavery whereas Obama through NDAA/secret renditions/torture has done the opposite maybe this led to the confusion.


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  • #

    “Big Chill in East Asia, China is after an unusually harsh winter this season with temperatures descend to the lowest three decades. (Hindustan Times – Sat 12th January 2013)”.
    Northern Europe would be a part of it for a long time, when the North and Baltic Seas had not prevented it. Until now they are still able to release considerable heat. So far it is a bulwark against the Asian extreme cold. Situation on 19 January 2013: http://climate-ocean.com/2013/12_8.html


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    Roy Hogue

    Lest we forget the past: in about 1947 it snowed 4 inches on each of two successive nights in the San Fernando Valley north of Los Angeles — elevation less than 800 feet (267 meters). I know this because I lived there at the time and am an eye witness. I was so mad because my parents made me go to school both days instead of staying home to play in the snow.

    Yes, all the current difficulties are severe. The deaths are a tragedy. But so what if it snowed in Israel? So what if somewhere it’s snow worse than anyone remembers? Our challenge is to cope with life, not cry and whine about problems. Instead we play games with people’s lives.

    We are not being honest with ourselves. To me the most striking thing about all the climate change nonsense is how childish it has become. Indeed, the whole world has become like children; witness the News Week cover page if you doubt it.

    When I was a child my parents didn’t expect adult behavior. But as I grew up they expected better and better grasp of reality. They demanded it. My teachers demanded it. My employers have demanded it. When I was in business for myself my clients demanded it.

    What has overcome a whole generation of human beings that they are still wearing mental diapers? God help us!


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      Grant (NZ)

      Dude. You have been alive for 2 climates (a climate being 30 years). It is just your kind with memories that the left/greenies want eliminated so their scare mongering is more effective on the young and clueless.

      Get into hiding quick or they’ll come to erase your memory.


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  • #
    Backslider

    I recall my father (born in Finland) telling me that -40C was like -10C without any clothes on…. no matter how much you had piled on.

    I love this one from Newscientist (Hansen yet again):

    Sea level rise could lead to cooler, stormier planet

    A CATASTROPHIC rise in sea level before the end of the century could have a hitherto unforeseen side effect. Melting icebergs might cool the seas around Greenland and Antarctica so much that the average surface temperature of the planet falls by a degree or two. This is according to unpublished work by climate scientist James Hansen of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York City.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21728995.200-sea-level-rise-could-lead-to-cooler-stormier-planet.html


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    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Hansen does seem to get better with age — Earth’s village idiot as it were. He’s now very good at predicting the present. The future, though, eludes him still.


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    • #
      Dagfinn

      The first comment is interesting and saying exactly what I was thinking–this is negative feedback.

      This doesn’t make much sense to me. In their paper, Hansen and Sato themselves point out that there would be NEGATIVE feedback — if the meltwater cools the environment then it will slow down the melting.

      The whole idea of the paper is that we will have exponentially increasing melting. I see no reason why it should be exponentially increasing, and the data presented in the paper certainly don’t demonstrate that.

      It’s not the first time Hansen contradicts himself, still it seems exceptional even for him.


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    • #
      Grant (NZ)

      It’s unpublished and not peer reviewed so it doesn’t count :-)


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      • #
        Backslider

        So why the story?…. just for the sake of more alarmism?


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      • #
        Roy Hogue

        Grant,

        What counts most is what you do when no one is looking. But let’s not judge too hastily. If Hansen had done only this one work of unpublished fiction and was relatively sound otherwise he would not be held in such low regard for this paper.

        However, that isn’t the case, is it?


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    • #
      Streetcred

      This is according to unpublished work by climate scientist James Hansen of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York City.

      It is unpublished for a reason … and should stay that way. His reputation is in tatters, even his NASA buddies take no notice nowadays.


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      • #
        Backslider

        This is something that always amazes me. If you look at the history of these people and some of the wild and ridiculous predictions they have made, they clearly have no credibility. But, because they have things like “of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space” tacked after their name, people still get sucked in to their latest volbetroff.


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        • #
          Crakar24

          What should amaze you even more is that Hansen works for GISS (Goddard Institute for Space Studies) however his temp data does not come from satellites.


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      • #
        Roy Hogue

        Firing him would be more appropriate. He is completely out of control and as you point out indirectly, he’s an embarrassment to his employer.


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  • #
    mwhite

    “* Cue trolls: tell us about the models that predicted heavier snowfall (especially after it happened). Which model got global precipitation right?”

    Shouldn’t that be (especially before it happened) most people can “predict” something that has already happened.

    As far as I know most models have been “predicting” the following

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/climateexperiment/whattheymean/theuk.shtml


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  • #
    Kevin Moore

    Two sides of the story –

    1.

    Global cooling is caused by global warming — says Greenbang.com

    “Averaged globally, temperatures around the world have been rising pretty much since modern instrumental record-keeping began. But average global warming doesn’t mean steady, year-round warming everywhere.

    Now, new research suggests that some of the cold, snowy winters that parts of the world have seen lately aren’t due just to random variations, but could in fact be caused by climate change. Yes, global warming might be causing more cooling and snow.

    Led by Judah L. Cohen of Atmospheric and Environmental Research, the new study explains the effect this way:……

    http://www.greenbang.com/global-warming-might-cause-colder-winters-more-snow_21263.html

    2.

    “Deluges of snow and rain. Why?

    The world has been hard-hit by abnormal weather in late 2010 and early 2011. Many articles have been written and opinions voiced. Some even blame global warming, but what really happened?

    It is indeed an unusual co-incidence of natural climate processes, which boil down to the following scenario:
    the world has been cooling slightly due to a change in solar activity, as borne out by the late and few sunspots for the coming Cycle 24. This alone accounts for:
    in the summer of 2010: droughts at mid-latitudes as explained above, accompanied by heat waves and bush fires in the summer of 2010: droughts at the centres of continents with abnormally low temperatures in the northern winter
    in the winter of 2010: (some) snow falling early, colder winter in the winter of 2010: (some) snow falling at lower latitudes, colder winter during the same time over the past three years, the oceans have experienced an unusually strong El Niño, during which ocean currents stagnate, which accounts for:
    a massive pool of warm water accumulating in the tropics.

    The warmer water should have triggered an over-active hurricane season but hurricanes cannot develop strength (spin) if they cannot move to higher latitudes where the coriolis force is stronger. When they did, they moved over colder water, which extinguished them. Because of land winds, none could make a land-fall.

    Seas in higher latitudes becoming colder than usual, resulting in
    summer: the drying of continents, heat waves, droughts, bush fires, etc.
    winter: early snow over larger areas then the El Niño ended, followed by La Niña when oceans begin to circulate again. The massive pool of warm tropical water began its journey poleward to higher latitudes, exactly when winter began in the north and summer in the south, causing:

    in the north: massive amounts of snow to fall on the still cold land. The snow, reflecting sunlight, further cooled the land, resulting in more sea wind with more snow over ever larger areas. Note, this is how an ice age begins!
    In the south: massive torrential rains on continental margins, accompanied by flooding.
    An extraordinary conspiracy of natural factors indeed! Its aftermath will be felt as a thorough disruption in agricultural productivity, most likely resulting in serious famines world-wide, accompanied by social unrest.
    http://www.seafriends.org.nz/issues/global/climate2.htm#global_cooling_heatwave


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    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Averaged globally, temperatures around the world have been rising pretty much since modern instrumental record-keeping began.

      Now if only we knew where the average place was we could make some sense out of an average temperature.

      The words to an old Jerry Reed Country Song include,

      The average man owns 2 1/2 cars;
      I bet that half a car is a real trick to drive.

      That’s from memory so maybe not exact. But you’ll get the point I’m sure.


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      • #
        Kevin Moore

        The ‘Average Global Temperature’
        All the current concerns about weather and climate focus on ‘man-made global warming’. It is claimed that the ‘average temperature’ of the Earth has increased over the preceding 10, 50, or 150 years, by 0.5, 0.8, or some other number of degrees C.

        Because the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has undeniably increased over these periods (attributed to increasing use of fossil fuels and clearing of forests), this increase in ‘greenhouse gases’ has been blamed for temperature rises. The widely-promoted fear is that there will be a ‘runaway greenhouse effect’, where world temperatures will increase out of control, and damage the Earth for habitation.

        This ongoing controversy is not dealt with here. Instead, we will look at some of the background to the whole business, and the assumptions usually made.

        “I just made it up!”
        How is the average global temperature of the Earth calculated? On the face of it, this seems a simple matter, just make regular readings at representative places and average these out. But delve into how this is done, or could be done, and you find you have disappeared down an ‘Alice in Wonderland’ rabbithole.

        “I just made it up!”

        A recent Google search on “How is the average temperature of the Earth calculated?” gave 1,380,000 results. The most pertinent [6] was a Yahoo Question page, which more or less repeated the same query:

        “How do they calculate the average temperature to say that the earth’s temperature is a particular number (I can’t believe they just do an arithmetic average of 10,000 readings around the world.)? ” …………..
        http://www.aoi.com.au/bcw/Sealevel/index.htm


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    • #
      Greg Cavanagh

      I’m sure they could set up an experiment to test this theory.

      A large cold room full of ice and water. Add heat to the upper room air. Did that increase ice melt and make the room colder?


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  • #
    MadJak

    Well that’ll help keep that evil methane locked up in Siberia. You know the stuff that is meant to accelerate the runaway climate change.

    Oh that’s right – now they’re talking about a methane bubble under the arctic now – why? because siberias’ getting colder now.

    I wonder will they feed this into their models? Nah, of course not – nothing to see here, just move along people.

    After all, it is all about belief, isn’t it!


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  • #
    Tel

    It’s worse than we thought.


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  • #
    pat

    $14trn = 14 TRILLION DOLLARS!!! how fortunate to have a Mexican as a FACECARD for this money grab. watch your Super:

    22 Jan: UK Independent: Tom Bawden: Davos call for $14trn ‘greening’ of global economy
    Political and business leaders warned of need to ensure sustainable growth
    Only a sustained and dramatic shift to infrastructure and industrial practices using low-carbon technology can save the world and its economy from devastating global warming, according to a Davos-commissioned alliance led by the former Mexican President, Felipe Calderon, in the most dramatic call so far to fight climate change on business grounds…
    The extra spending amounts to roughly $700bn a year until 2030 and would provide a much-needed economic stimulus as well as reduce the costs associated with global warming further down the line, said Mr Calderon, who leads the alliance.
    It is better to try to pre-empt events like Hurricane Sandy, which cost $50bn, by keeping a lid on global warming, concluded the report, researched by the Accenture consultancy…
    Mr Calderon is calling on the UK Government and other members of the G20 to unleash a wave of private investment in green infrastructure by giving potential backers of low-carbon projects the confidence and incentives to step up their spending.
    ***The alliance, which includes the World Bank, Deutsche Bank and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, proposes that governments use public money to give guarantees, insurance and incentives to potential low-carbon investors at the same time as phasing out fossil fuel subsidies.
    The investment is needed to stimulate spending on everything from low-emission crop practices with reduced chemical and fertiliser use to renewable power generation and energy-efficient buildings and transport.
    In addition to the need for an extra $14trn of extra spending, a substantial part of the $5trn-a-year that has been earmarked worldwide for investment in traditional, fossil-fuel heavy infrastructure by 2020 will need to be diverted to greener alternatives “to avoid locking in less-efficient, emissions-intensive technologies for decades to come”…
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/davos-call-for-14trn-greening–of-global-economy-8460994.html


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    • #
      Roy Hogue

      They’re not only going to eat their children’s future, they seem bent on eating their children as well.

      I guess they figure that with no future their children don’t count anyway.


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  • #
    pat

    Accenture Consultancy which is behind the report calling for our TRILLIONS:

    2009: Venturebeat: Camille Ricketts: U.K. called climate change slacker, taps Accenture to turn Smart Grid program around
    And one of its regulators estimated that it will need to spend 200 billion pounds (a staggering $316 billion dollars) over the next decade in order to make the necessary cuts in greenhouse gases. At the same time, the government announced that it has contracted Accenture to help ease its rollout of Smart Grid technology, which should push it closer to its goals…
    Accenture will be charged with advising utilities as well as the government how to best install advanced meters capable of beaming energy consumption data between energy generators and their customers…
    Accenture is no stranger to the Smart Grid. In the U.S., it is partnering with Colorado-based utility Xcel Energy to run a pilot program incorporating these technologies. It also offers its Intelligent City Network — a portal for Smart Grid best practices that utilities can consult as they deploy smart meters and communicate changes to their customers…
    (VentureBeat is hosting GreenBeat, the seminal executive conference on the Smart Grid, on Nov. 18-19, featuring keynotes from Nobel Prize winner Al Gore and Kleiner Perkins’ John Doerr)
    http://venturebeat.com/2009/10/12/uk-called-climate-change-slacker-taps-accenture-to-turn-smart-grid-program-around/

    June 2012: WUWT: Pacific Institute reinstates Peter Gleick
    comment by A. Scott: Here is their Board of Directors:
    (includes) Olivier J. Marie, business strategist, former Partner at Accenture and Booz Allen & Hamilton, Energy Analyst. Works with MBA students from the Haas School of Business New Sector Alliance helping non-profit organizations…
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/06/pacific-institute-reinstates-peter-gleick/

    Pacific Institute Board of Directors
    Olivier J. Marie, business strategist, former Partner at Accenture and Booz Allen & Hamilton, Energy Analyst…etc
    http://www.pacinst.org/about_us/staff_board/board.htm

    Wikipedia: Accenture Consulting
    Accenture plc is a multinational management consulting, technology services and outsourcing company headquartered in Dublin, Republic of Ireland. It is one of the world’s largest consulting firm measured by revenues[3] and is a constituent of the Fortune Global 500 list.[4] As of September 2012, the company had more than 257,000 employees across 120 countries…
    Accenture originated as the business and technology consulting division of accounting firm Arthur Andersen…
    Through the 1990s, there was increasing tension between Andersen Consulting and Arthur Andersen. Andersen Consulting was upset that it was paying Arthur Andersen up to 15% of its profits each year (a condition of the 1989 split was that the more profitable unit – AA or AC – paid the other this sum), while at the same time Arthur Andersen was competing with Andersen Consulting through its own newly established business consulting service line called Arthur Andersen Business Consulting. This dispute came to a head in 1998 when Andersen Consulting claimed breach of contract against Andersen Worldwide Société Coopérative (AWSC) and Arthur Andersen. Andersen Consulting put the 15% transfer payment for that year and future years into escrow and issued a claim for breach of contract. In August 2001, as a result of the conclusion of arbitration with the International Chamber of Commerce, Andersen Consulting broke all contractual ties with AWSC and Arthur Andersen. As part of the arbitration settlement, Andersen Consulting paid the sum held in escrow (then $1.2 billion) to Arthur Andersen, and was required to change its name, resulting in the entity being renamed Accenture…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accenture


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  • #
    pat

    22 Jan: UK Daily Mail: Jan Fryer: The BBC froze me out because I don’t believe in global warming: Outspoken as ever, David Bellamy reveals why you don’t see him on TV any more
    ‘And it’s just nonsense. For the last 16 years, temperatures have been going down and the carbon dioxide has been going up and the crops have got greener and grow quicker. We’ve done plenty to smash up the planet, but there’s been no global warming caused by man.’…
    ‘I still say it’s poppycock!’ he snorts. ‘If you believe it, fine. But I don’t and there’s thousands like me. David Attenborough used to be one of us on wind farms, but then he changed his mind.’…
    ‘And I can’t complain. When I was at the BBC, I could do whatever I wanted. In those days, you could say what you liked. You can’t now…
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2266188/David-Bellamy-The-BBC-froze-I-dont-believe-global-warming.html


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    • #
      handjive

      David Attenborough. Hitler is alive and well & practising his racist eugenics under the guise of Attenborough’s “environmentalism.”
      .

      Humans are a plague on the Earth that need to be controlled by limiting population growth, according to Sir David Attenborough.

      “Sir David, who is a patron of the Optimum Population Trust, has spoken out before about the “frightening explosion in human numbers” and the need for investment in sex education and other voluntary means of limiting population in developing countries.”
      .

      Voluntary?

      Not in Attenborough’s “environmental” pogrom, which is well underway:

      UK aid helps to fund forced sterilisation of India’s poor

      “A working paper published by the UK’s Department for International Development in 2010 cited the need to fight climate change as one of the key reasons for pressing ahead with such programmes.

      The document argued that reducing population numbers would cut greenhouse gases.”
      .

      Of course, like all “anti-human environmentalists,” it does not apply to them.

      The world will be a better place when he, all his offspring & “believers” are dead.


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      • #
        MadJak

        The Question that allways does in this sort of talk is quite simple:

        “By what means would you determine who can and cannot breed/survive and who would make that judgement?”

        Too often the answer is targeting the Africans or the Chinese – with the totally invalid argument that “They can’t support their children/people”. This argument is completely flawed because they’re also the people who are consuming the least pof the worlds resources – it’s kindof like saying “I ate too much, so you must starve now”.

        And we all know that China has done more to curb it’s population growth than almost any other country (though peaceful means that is). Not tha tthe one child policy should be lauded mind you – particularly wrt to the effect on the viability prospects of many girls.

        I would ask David Attenborough if presenting documentaries or being the child of someone who has made a living out of presenting documentaries would justify exclusion? How would that differ to say some kid who walked across africa with other children to escape the brutality of war?

        And then, of course, the discussion becomes emotional – why? because it’s a personal question, of course. The sort of question that billions of people around the world have no means to ask while some well off elites in the developed world discuss their fate yet again.


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      • #
        John Brookes

        Population projections show that world population will reach 9 billion, and then fall. In all except the poorest countries, birth rates are falling. The two key things to reduce population growth are to eliminate extreme poverty, and to improve the education and employment of women. These are good goals anyway, so should be implemented.


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        • #
          cohenite

          The greatest impediment to population stability is religion, particularly Islam.


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          • #
            Gee Aye

            Does your statement in some way negate JB’s or add to it? I have to agree regarding certain parts of organised religion although I can’t see that catholicism is doing much better than islam regarding population growth. It all depends on which part of the world you look at. Catholicism looks positively negative in Spain but few other places.

            Poverty and poor education in regions with strong religious doctrine are those that have the highest birth rate (UN is the reference sorry), but there is no other strong correlates to suggest that a particular religion is better at driving population growth.

            Is there a study you are getting your data from?


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          • #
            Dave

            .
            Just trying to get data from here and here to get figures.

            By putting the top 10 Islamist countries together you get a birth rate of around 3.00.

            By putting the top 10 non Islamist countries together you get a birth rate of around less than 1.55? The world rate is around about 2.5.

            I haven’t done Catholic dominated countries – but work out for yourself the Catholic dominated countries and the Islam dominated countries GeeAye.

            India is 2.60
            China is 1.55

            Make up your own mind.


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          • #
            cohenite

            Gee Aye, islam is on the ascendacy; it’s ideological view of women is one of complete subservience; in islam the woman’s only role is to be a wife and mother.

            There can only be one result to that.

            Catholicism is a partially domesticated religion; remnants of it’s past oppressive strictures still remain but basically outside the West; islam has no such stricture even within the West.

            Comparative birth rates are generally available, as Dave notes, in wiki and elsewhere. I haven’t bookmarked any such studies although I have discussed them before; I’m simply arguing on basic principles.


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      • #
        AndyG55

        “Humans are a plague on the Earth that need to be controlled by limiting population growth, according to Sir David Attenborough.”

        who has several grandchildren. DOH !!


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  • #
    Greg House

    “Spare a thought for the those facing temperatures so cold that natural gas is liquifying in pipes.”
    ================================================

    This is impossible that natural gas is liquifying in pipes.

    The liquefaction of natural gas requires -162C (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas).

    The lowest natural temperature ever recorded on Earth was −89C in Antarctica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowest_temperature_recorded_on_Earth).

    I do not think that Wikipedia lies on these particular issues.


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    • #
      Grant (NZ)

      Greg, natural gas is distributed in two forms – LNG (liquified) and CNG (compressed).


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      • #
        Greg House

        Natural gas can be liquefied, of course, but not naturally, because you will not find a place on Earth where the natural temperature would be -162C. The lowest ever recorded one was −89C in Antarctica. Can you see the difference?


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    • #
      AndyG55

      Temperature and pressure, Greg. !


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      • #
        Greg House

        AndyG55 says (#26.2): “Temperature and pressure, Greg. !”
        ==================================================

        And your point is…?


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      • #
        Roy Hogue

        I was going to mention the same thing. Higher pressure raises the temperature of liquefaction, also the point where it solidifies. AT high enough pressure it remains liquid at room temperature. Los Angeles’ MTA runs busses that boast about running on LNG. So what we need to find is a graph of freezing temperature vs. pressure. Then we’ll know.

        I also know that natural gas can contain water vapor and I don’t know how ice would form or how it would affect small valve orifices, etc. inside the distribution system.

        Jo’s link on the subject leads to a page that doesn’t mention natural gas freezing. But it may have been updated since the link was posted.


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        • #
          Greg House

          Right, I did not know that the pressure in the pipeline is fairly high.

          On the other hand it is difficult to believe that they would maintain such a pressure that natural gas liquefied in the pipeline.

          The third thing is that the dramatising temperature in this particular case is not quite honest, because they did not mention the high artificial pressure.

          On the other hand maybe they did not know that.


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          • #
            Roy Hogue

            Greg,

            In the U.S. at least, natural gas appliances run on 1/2 pound per square inch pressure maximum and some have internal pressure regulators that cut it in half again. If they tried to deliver it through pipelines at that pressure there couldn’t be a pipe with a large enough diameter to handle the load. So the pressure is quite high and every building has a pressure regulator between the cutoff valve and the meter. I don’t know what the pressure is but judging by the output pressure (1/2 PSI) and the diameter of the regulator diaphragm (about 6 inches) it could be in the 100 + PSI range.


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        • #
          Greg House

          Roy (#27.2.2.1.1), according to http://www.naturalgas.org/naturalgas/transport.asp “Natural gas that is transported through interstate pipelines travels at high pressure in the pipeline, at pressures anywhere from 200 to 1500 pounds per square inch (psi).” which means up to 10 MPa.

          The question is at what temperature natural gas in the pipeline would liquefied.


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          • #
            AndyG55

            I would guess, at about the tempperature it is reported to have happened. ;-)

            Yes, they use cold at -162C to liquify the gas, but they can still store it as a liquid in pressure vessels, ie bbq gas cylinder, which don’t really hold that large a pressure of (around 25 kPa or 3.6 psi iirc), which is A LOT less than in a pipeline !

            I would have to go back 35 odd years to remember how to do the calculations, but there is bound to be a pressure/temp liquification graph on the net somewhere.


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          • #
            Greg House

            AndyG55 says (#27.2.2.2.1): “I would guess, at about the tempperature it is reported to have happened. ;-)
            ===========================================

            Not so fast, Andy, I have a good news: http://www.answers.com/topic/liquefied-natural-gas!

            But first one important definition: “Critical temperature is the maximum temperature at which a gas can be converted into a liquid by an increase in pressure.”

            Now look at this (quoted from the link above):

            1. “McGraw-Hill Science & Technology Dictionary:
            liquefied natural gas

            (materials) A product of natural gas which consists primarily of methanes; its critical temperature is about -100°F (-73°C), and thus it must be liquefied by cooling to cryogenic temperatures and must be well insulated to be held in the liquid state;”

            2. “McGraw-Hill Science & Technology Encyclopedia:
            Liquefied natural gas (LNG)

            A product of natural gas which consists primarily of methane. Its properties are those of liquid methane, slightly modified by minor constituents. One property which differentiates liquefied natural gas (LNG) from liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) is the low critical temperature, about −100°F (−73°C). This means that natural gas cannot be liquefied at ordinary temperatures simply by increasing the pressure, as is the case with LPG; instead, natural gas must be cooled to cryogenic temperatures to be liquefied and must be well insulated to be held in the liquid state.”

            It is highly improbable that the temperature in Siberia could fall under -73C.

            Looks like we are done with the issue.


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          • #
            AndyG55

            I’ve forgotten too much of that chemistry/physics stuff to argue :-)

            Still, if the gas in the pipes did liquify, it would be interesting to know how/why .


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          • #
            Greg House

            AndyG55 says (#27.2.2.2.3): ”
            Still, if the gas in the pipes did liquify, it would be interesting to know how/why.”

            ==========================================

            The natural gas in the pipes could only liquefy at a temperature below -73C and this depending on pressure. The lowest ever recorded temperature in Siberia was −71.2 °C.

            No way.


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          • #
            AndyG55

            I’ve tried to find an original report that this actually happened.. can’t find, just vague references is all.

            Lots of chatter on CAGW sites using it for the “extreme weather” meme, though.

            Does anyone have any idea where this gas pipe liquifying story originated ???


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          • #
            AndyG55

            Greg,

            When I made the “temperature and pressure” remark, I knew also involved, just didn’t know the values.

            Now we have the values, I’m inclined to agree, doesn’t seem possible.

            Still, -162C change to -73C does show the effect of pressure, just not enough effect to cause liquification.

            so 2 queries arise.

            1. Did a pipe liquify somewhere (or is it just more hype, or some other mistaken event)?

            2. IF it did, how and why?


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          • #
            AndyG55

            ps Post #30 seems to indicate critical value of -81C. for methane.

            I wonder what the gas in the pipes actually was?


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          • #
            Greg House

            AndyG55 says (#27.2.2.2.6): “IF it did, how and why?”
            ===========================================

            You mean how and why an impossible event happened? A good question.


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          • #
            Tel

            Gazprom seem to run higher pressure than most, from here…

            http://www.gazprominfo.com/articles/compressed-natural-gas/

            They say they run at 200 to 250 bars, so around 3000 PSI.

            Further, “natural gas” can be many things, but to start with “natural” means exactly what it says — you get whatever comes out of the ground. This is wet gas which may contain water, longer chain hydrocarbons and other crap. It goes through purification and dehydration before being handed to the consumer (as dry gas) but with gas pipelines in Siberia, who knows what stage it is at? I can’t find any Gazprom documentation about composition at various stages of transport, but maybe the documentation is in Russian, and maybe they just don’t make such information public.

            In short — it is entirely possible that Siberian pipelines are not carrying pure methane.

            By the way, can anyone find a reference for this event, back to some original Russian report?


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          • #
            AndyG55

            Tel, they do try to remove the H2O, but the long chain stuff.. who knows what it might contain from a natural source.

            Let’s put the issue down as “unverified” at the moment. Hence not worth chasing too much.

            Certainly, from an engineering pov, worth looking at IF it actually happened.


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          • #
            Roy Hogue

            Greg,

            This article mentions benzene as “one of” the components of natural gas that can freeze and says it must be (is) removed at some point. But that’s not enough info to go on.

            I remember the gas laws well enough but without data we don’t have I’m just guessing.


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            Tel

            Let’s put the issue down as “unverified” at the moment. Hence not worth chasing too much.

            Well if all Siberian supplies got shut down due to liquification, you would have heard it widely reported.

            My guess is that no one puts processing plants right at the well-heads, so they pipe the gas wet for at least some distance to a suitable plant. In Siberia I’d say they don’t make that plant any more elaborate than it absolutely needs to be.

            Probably a few well heads got shut down due to liquification, and it was wet gas that hadn’t been processed yet.


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        AndyG55

        Another possibility… Natural gas can contain some ethane and propane, (around 3% total) both of which can easily liquify under cold and pressure.

        But in the absence of further information, I’m now giving up on this. :-)


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          Greg House

          AndyG55 says (#27.2.3): “Another possibility… Natural gas can contain some ethane and propane, (around 3% total) both of which can easily liquify under cold and pressure.”
          =========================================

          My guess would be that a mixture of gasses does not work this way. The properties of the components do affect the property of the mixture however. Therefore the critical temperature of natural gas (a mixture) is higher than the one of the main part of it: methane (90%).


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      john robertson

      Greg, don’t know about natural gas, but propane gells up(fails to vaporize) here at around -40, if your tank is low and the demand is heavy.
      We install electric heaters, usually blanket type for cold weather use on high demand installations or vaporizers with external heat.
      But at -50C, when it comes, you will see 500W quartz lights , naked flames, herman-nelsons and open electric heaters shoved under propane pigs as people try to keep their heat on.
      The liquid is very hard to ignite.


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    mc

    According to Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia, within a few years winter snowfall will become “a very rare and exciting event”.
    “Children just aren’t going to know what snow is,” he said.

    In the bizarre world of the “climate disruption” industry the above statement is not a prediction, it is a publicly placed job application.


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    Steve Brown

    I live on England’s South coast, we’ve not been hit by the civilisation-disrupting 5cms of snow but it is still bloody cold and damp. There’s central heating (gas-fired) in the house but we can’t afford to use it (I’m an unemployable 65 years old. pension now kicks in at 67!)
    Gas prices have gone up TWICE since August and this country is sitting on vast reserves of shale gas that the all-powerful Greenies have proscribed as “Nasty”.
    I have become very, very embittered towards Greenies and their ambitions of late. Cold is not conducive to intellectual discussion. I’d prefer a shotgun.


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    Rod Stuart

    With a boiling point of minus 161 C at one atmosphere and a critical temperature of minus 81 C, and bearing in mind the heat of compression in natural gas transmission, it is difficult indeed to imagine natural gas freezing in pipes.


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  • #

    Wow, nice cherry picking, Jo!

    Siberia -9°C, UK -20°C. Hmmm something weird is happening there.

    Frigid Arctic ice is escaping the Arctic, AGW and the record icemelts change the polar currents and winds so lobes of frigid Arctic air escape the circumpolar winds and head south until blocked by another system.

    So the record cold does not refute AGW I am afraid, for all the lemmings here think it does.


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      Heywood

      “So the record cold does not refute AGW I am afraid”

      Nor does a couple of hot days confirm it I am afraid, for all the loser warmist lemmings that think it does.

      I wonder about your motivation coming here. It might be some sort of attention seeking disorder. Maybe you should talk to someone.


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      AndyG55

      The yapping chihuahua returns.

      Someone throw it a mouse or something.. so it can really have something to be scared of. !


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      Ace

      Maxine, what you do is called “sophistry”…its the exact opposite of science.

      Science predicts an occurrence then stands or falls on whether the predicted event occurs.

      Merely taking miscellaneous events and then “interpreting” anything and everything creatively to support a view is the opposite. Its what you do.

      I know I was sarcastic about your ignorance on an earlier thread. But now I think it is really sad that you might go through your entire life without having the faintest inkling of the true beuaty of the scientific method.

      I suggest you get on a college course and find out what a load of guff you’ve been spouting before you make yourself look more of an idiot in the eyes of posterity on the annalls of web-archivism.


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      Harry

      Gosh, Maxine arrived to make exactly the comment predicted above!


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      Roy Hogue

      Maxine,

      I think you know where you can go. Please take your nonsense with you.

      OR — actually contribute usefully to the debate.

      I would really prefer the latter but I’m not going to hold my breath waiting for it.

      In any case, your attitude of superiority is wearing very thin and in spite of Jo’s policy to the contrary I wish she would cut you off.


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      Sonny

      Right on cue!!!

      Maxine “explains” how global warming causes global cooling exactly as I predicted above!

      “Lobes of Frigid arctic air” bwahahahahahaha!

      If only that pesky air could stay where it should and stop the arctic from melting!!

      Bwahahahahahahahahah!

      Maxine, you are insane.


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        Ace

        Sonny, be patient, I think I tried to be this time, its merely descriptive to call her an ignoramus but you cant slate these people as “insane” because that reduces “us” to their level.


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      ianl8888

      Actually, dear, the NAO (North Atlantic or Arctic Oscillation) is a result of differential air pressures between the Arctic and mid-latitude regions. A higher pressure differential maintains the shape of the circumpolar winds, keeping frigid air within that circumference; a lower pressure differential splits the circumference (generally in two), allowing the frigid air to bleed out

      These pressure differentials are impelled by the Nino/Nina oscillations. Nino pushes colder water into the west Pacific and then towards the poles from the equatorial regions of the Aus continent and the Indonesian archipelago, reducing air pressure differentials. Nina pushes warmer water into the west Pacific and towards the poles, increasing differentials

      There is hard geological evidence (eg. minutely analysed drill cores from red bed lakes in the US) for the Nino/Nina oscillations over at least the last 11,000 years. Natural variations in climate. You will need to argue that AGW, melting Greenland ice etc. in the last 50 years have altered the Nino/Nina/NAO oscillations

      You won’t, of course. But these oscillations have been occurring for millenia, sometimes severe, sometimes milder. Climate is comprised of non-linear, chaotic processes constantly interacting. Prediction is irreducibly uncertain

      Many, many papers on attempting to understand these oscillations. For example:

      We conclude that the 1,500-year cycle in the Arctic Oscillation arises from either internal variability of the climate system or as an indirect response to low-latitude solar forcing.

      http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v5/n12/full/ngeo1629.html

      I fully recognise that this dose of reality will not change the public debate. So tell us how to achieve reliable, affordable base load energy without reducing living standards


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      Ian

      Maxine so why do you think climate scientists seem unable to predict this cold weather? Why haven’t the models? Why is it that no matter what happens it’s all due to CAGW? Don’t you think that those not as deranged as you appear to be, are justified in being a little “sceptical” (to coin a phrase) when told that whatever happens is due to CAGW. Hurricanes, hot weather, fires, cold weather, snow, floods, drought anything at all, is all due to CAGW. Can’t you see that the change in title from global warming to climate change, apparently made to ensure this term could be used to explain any weather at all seems a bit suspicious. Can’t you see that the dire predictions of the climate change proponents which turn out to be entirely inaccurate damage their credibility? Can’t you see that the way the proponents of CAGW steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the science is not settled is taken by many as arrogant posturing. Can’t you see that the involvement of the politicians eagerly developing new taxes they claim will combat the threat just looks like they’re cashing in on people’s fears. And will you please tell us all where the literature is that quantifies the extent to which human activity, as compared to natural causes, has changed the climate?


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      rukidding

      Yea lets save the world Maxine.
      Sorry you can’t.If AGW is what you say saving the world past about 50 years and 5 billion people ago.
      So stop lying to the world and tell them they can’t be saved.
      No you can’t do that can you because people might just say to hell with it all if we are going to die might as well party like there is no tomorrow.


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      wayne, s. Job

      I did seem to note an oddity that the shifting pattern opens a hole to the arctic for warm air off the pacific ocean to blast into the arctic area. This warms the air in the arctic to minus a shipload to a ship load. The problem being in the long term that the pacific ocean and thus the world is dumping heat to space and does not auger well for the global warming meme.

      That the heat is not being replaced creates a small problem, the sun and all the other indicators being as they are, our problem for the fore seeable future shall not be warming.

      Maxine if you have a good inside running to a genuine soothsayer that can predict anything better, please give me his or her phone number.


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    Harry

    Oh…. Maxine… if you are genuine then you should put into practice things that will make a real difference. So, perhaps its time to get rid of your doggy (eats evil meat, breathes out CO2) and change your picture to something more environmentally sound. A rock, perhaps?


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      Ace

      Better still, she could forgo the internet, donate her computer to needy kids in Africa (I mean that setiously, charities exist to channel used PCs accross the world) and learn to live without electricity.


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        Ace

        …like I am at present rates going to have to do given the immense burden the Eco-inflated cost of it is becoming to me. No…SERIOUSLY …I AM thinking about using candles in my flat because REALLLYY(no, I am not kidding or deploying mere hyperbole)I AM in danger of being unable to pay my utilities bills. I am sat here FREEEZING my door-knobs off at times
        ……Yeah…thanks to ….summitorothers…like Our Maxines.

        Dont misinterpret my attempts to be polite…I really HATE these people.


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          Ace

          …alright…I dont want to become a PARNCUTT…but if I met Stephen Chu face to face with him strapped to a steel bench on a water-logged floor while I wore rubber boots and had a taser in my grasp…yeah,I would find my new found belief in doing Right By Jesus sorely tested! Chu would have to thank God for staying my inclinations even though, no doubt, the Fascist swine is an atheist.


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            Mattb

            new-found belief? So did you used to be a fascist swine too?

            I’m an atheist too btw… that may help you reack higher climax in your psychotic dreams.


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            Roy Hogue

            Steady there. Words are one thing and actions are quite another. Words threatening harm are a bad idea.

            I understand your anger, believe me, I do. But keep a tight grip on this fact: we are being accused of wanting great harm to millions if not billions of people. Do not make that accusation come true, even if the harm is aimed at only one person.


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            Ace

            Yes Matb…I did used to be a fascist…somewhat more extreme than Hitler, and the reason I am not now is my “new found belief”.

            Whereas if I were still an anti-theist I would still be a fascist. Like you.

            Because at the end of the day, AS I SAID CLEARLY…my “new found belief” would stay my hand, whereas you believe in nothing and there is therefore nothing to give you perspective on your arrogance. You believe nothing and therefore nothing you say or do has consequence or meaning. If you had an urge to inflict torture on someone there is nothing to stop you.

            If you had a glimmer of intelligence you would see from this scenario that only belief will stop a person carrying out such an act. Atheists and those who believe in another deity DO carry out such acts, regularly. Just look at recent events in Algeria. Or thousands of others occurring daily.

            As for “psychotic dreams” that simply again reminds us what an ignorant little child you are using big words you dont understand.

            As before, what acomplete pillock you are.


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            Ace

            Roy…I clearly stated that my beliefs would “stay my hand”.

            The difference between “us” and the Parncutts is that. As Ive spelled out for our resident idiot…not Maxine but Mattb….THEY have no such scruples.


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            Mattb

            Ace… why do I think you are as reformed as those sharks in Finding Nemo? Is that you Bruce?


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            Roy Hogue

            Matt, you really don’t know when to quit. The more you are shown to be a fool, the more you talk. :-(


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  • #

    [...] Jo Nova shows us some anecdotal evidence that costs may be actually killing people.  That led me here….. [...]


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    Ace

    …only my belief would stay my hand.


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      Mattb

      Bullshit it would.


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        Ace

        Basically, Brookes and “Matb” are as we see people who prefer to believe in a pretension of their own rightous and exemplary purity than acknoiwledge their common humanity. Most people in everyday life do feel anger from time to time. Most people will have no problem admitting that. Admitting it is the first step towards not acting upon it.

        But Brookes and Matb …and their type…like to pretend that they exist on some kind of plane of superior saintly exemption from such nasty human weakness. They refuse to acknowledge this weakness and fromtjis emerges the example of such as Parncutt, who set out a scheme of judicial murder of sceptics.

        As such they are exemplary Eco-Fascists.


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      John Brookes

      So you are naturally violent, and need religion to control you? That is weird.


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        Mattb

        … but not surprising.


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        Ace

        Brookes…human beings ARE naturally violent. If you think thats weird you must have lived your entire life with your head shoved up your arse.

        As if we didnt see enough evidence of that already.

        Yes I am liable to violence as evolution has pre-determined inmy genes. The only difference between me and you in that respect is I admit it and you deny it. I am quite certain that your innate propensity for aggression can be elicited if the circumstances arise. You dont know yourself orare self-deceiving. You are also ignorant of biology.


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          Mattb

          lol I love your rationalisation of actually being a psychopath. “It’s in me genes your honour.”

          Ace it would appear my atheism has rendered me far less likely to go Clockwork Orange for kicks than your supposed faith.


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            Mark D.

            Mattb, don’t you think “reformed Catholic” is more accurate than “atheist”?

            After all…..


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            Mattb

            They are both accurate. I quite like Catholicism, and even Christianity, but at the end of the day I don’t believe in God. It’s kinda a fatal flaw. That Jesus guy, like others, did have some pretty sound advice though I have to say.


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            Mark D.

            That Jesus guy, like others, did have some pretty sound advice though I have to say.

            Precisely why “athiest” is not accurate.

            Denial might be more accurate but that for another day. Give my best regards to mom and dad.


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            Mattb

            “Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[4][5][6][7] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[8][9] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.”

            Thinking that some bloke had some good ideas is completely compatible with atheism. You could say I’m a bit agnostic with my atheism… I’m certainy not an evangelical atheist. Denial would be a strange way to put it indeed.

            I take it we are not separated by many degrees?


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            Backslider

            I always find it interesting when somebody declares themselves an atheist.

            Tell me Mattb. From your eminently scientific point of view, how did life begin on Earth? (no long lecture, just a simple sentence or two).


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            Mattb

            How did life begin or how did the universe begin? Life appears to be a fluke of chemistry. The universe, who knows? Maybe I’m more of a Nick Cave, and just don’t believe in an interventionist god. A God, if one exists, does not appear to have popped in to my event horizon.


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            Backslider

            Yes Mattb, I expected as much. However, to clarify your point, I am sure that you mean “A great many flukes of chemistry”, wouldn’t you agree?

            The problem is that, from a purely scientific point of view, using the purest science (math), in the much touted 3.5 billion years that the planet has been in some way inhabitable there simply is not enough time for such a thing to happen. Its statistically impossible…. the probability is accepted by eminent scientists as zero.

            This is why scientists such as Stephen Hawking believe in panspermia. That this fluke of chemistry is just as impossible somewhere else in space is beside the point, for them it at least takes the heat off as to origin on this planet.

            I urge you to study the probability of this with an open mind… your eyes will be opened.


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            Crakar24

            Back slider,

            I would consider myself an athiest and if your question was/is designed to catch me out then sorry but you are sadly mistaken but just for the record i have no idea how the universe/galaxy came into being but i would agree with Mattb about the flukes of chemistry idea.

            Let me ask you a question, if you were God (christian) and you created a son and put him on Earth to spread the word then why did he spend all his life in what is now known as Palestine?

            Would it not make sense that he travelled to other parts of the world to spread the word? Why were the Aboriginals not informed of this new development? The American Indians? The Indians? Eskimos? Chinese? etc.


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            Backslider

            “A God, if one exists, does not appear to have popped in to my event horizon.”

            That is an agnostic speaking, not an atheist.

            If He does pop into your horizon, how will you recognise Him?…. you have an entire universe that screams at you “intelligent design”. Again, probability discounts it all just happening by chance… it is just too complex and too beautiful. You have the intelligence you see, if you will.


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            Backslider

            @Crakar24 – this is a scientific discussion, not theological.

            Thanks.


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            Mattb

            I’ve never heard the word panspermia before excuse my ignorance. A quick google suggests I have no particular problem with it as a possibility.

            again a quick google http://www.evolutionfaq.com/articles/probability-life (and others) suggests that “from a purely scientific point of view, using the purest science (math), in the much touted 3.5 billion years that the planet has been in some way inhabitable there simply is not enough time for such a thing to happen. Its statistically impossible” is highly debatable.

            One does have to wonder if it is statistically more probable that life began somewhere else and by fluke was transported to earth, or whether it started here by fluke.


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            Mattb

            Crackar apparently god did make his son/prophet travel to many different parts of the world to spread his message. Unfortunately he forgot to tell everyone this so we all want to kill eachother.


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            Crakar24

            That is an agnostic speaking, not an atheist

            .

            If He does pop into your horizon, how will you recognise Him?…. you have an entire universe that screams at you “intelligent design”. Again, probability discounts it all just happening by chance… it is just too complex and too beautiful. You have the intelligence you see, if you will.

            This is a scientific debate? Sounds theological to me.


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            Mattb

            “you have an entire universe that screams at you “intelligent design”. Again, probability discounts it all just happening by chance… it is just too complex and too beautiful.”

            I thought you said this was a scientific not theological discussion?


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            Mattb

            Well I’m going to buy a lotto ticket. I agree with Crakar WTF!?


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            Crakar24

            Crackar apparently god did make his son/prophet travel to many different parts of the world to spread his message. Unfortunately he forgot to tell everyone this so we all want to kill eachother

            Maybe when he got there they heard him out and told him to piss off.

            I could not win a chook raffle dont by a ticket on my account


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            Mattb

            “That is an agnostic speaking, not an atheist.”

            Did he hack my account? Mods can you please check that some agnostic is not hacking my account?


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            Backslider

            The two of you only prove how closed minded and ignorant you are.

            Probability is a very pure science. It amuses me, in a sad way, just how afraid of it you two really are.

            It is the two of you who spoke of God, not me, other than to ask Mattb a question re. his reference to God. At most I spoke of “intelligent design”, leaving it open to whoever wishes to explore the truth to decide for themselves.

            If the discussion was in any way theological, it was only so because the two of you made it that way.

            Mattb, the probability is hardly debatable. This is math, not climate debate. So sad you are afraid of math. It does expose your own hypocrisy.


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            Mattb

            Slider it took me all of 5 seconds to google and find a link (provided above) that refutes your statistical claims in at least some way. So what if it happened off-planet…. it is a big universe. As I say it is clear we do not know what caused the “big bang” or whatever you like to call the origin (the big god light switch).

            There is no scientific evidence to suggest that god/gods do not exist. I’m cool with that. 100% comfortable.


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            Crakar24

            Intelligent design is not discussed by scientists


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            Backslider

            The point is Mattb, that you are in fact afraid of the science, looking for the first thing you can find to suport what you already have your mind set on. Thats fine, I can accept that you are closed minded.

            @Crakar – False. Many very eminent scientists do in fact discuss intelligent design.


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            Crakar24

            BS,

            The day that a scientist relies on the “hand of God” to explain his theory is the day that science dies.


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            Mattb

            BS can you explain the link between panspermia and intelligent design? I’m completely fine with you believing that everything we can’t yet explain by science was “created” by an intelligent designer. It really has no relevance to my life and cannot effect it in any way.


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            Backslider

            BS, BS – you two should read a little more carefully, you don’t even know what you are BSing.

            @Crakar24 – who ever said such a thing? Certainly not me, nor any scientist I know. You just made it up as an excuse to BS.

            @Mattb – the link is something I think you would do well to discover. Find out just why people like Stephen Hawking believe in Panspermia, its quite amusing.

            I don’t recall at all talking about creation, nor did I tell you what I believe. I did ask you a question about how life began on this earth, just to see how much you think you know.


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            Mattb

            is intelligent design not jsut another word for creation? ie something designed/created life. Quite different from a literal/biblical/young earther type. Are you suggesting despite all your capital H Hims, and G Gods, and reference to just too beautifulk to be anything other then intelligent design, that you do not believe in the existence of a designer? Weird.


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            Backslider

            Mattb – If you talk about God in lower case, then you only show yourself to be both disrespectful and uneducated.

            If you are unable to see intelligence in everything around you, you are simply blind.

            Again, it is you who brings up God and Creation. Why is that?

            When you are able to set aside your prejudices, then you may actually see and learn something useful.

            The main point is this: the very same prejudice colors your own thinking in relation to global warming.


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            Crakar24

            I don’t recall at all talking about creation, nor did I tell you what I believe. I did ask you a question about how life began on this earth, just to see how much you think you know.

            You asked how life began so you could tell how much we think we know.

            I could ask how was life created as an alternative to how life began they both mean the same thing, we both answered your question so you could tell how much we think we know which infers that you have the answers that we seek.

            If you are unable to see intelligence in everything around you, you are simply blind.

            Define intelligence in this context, intelligence of the individual or the intelligence required to begin life or perhaps some other definition?


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            Mattb

            yes yes of course it does. *sigh*


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            Backslider

            @Crakar24 – seek to answer your own questions, its better that way.

            Mattb was talking about Creation as in God. Thanks.


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            Crakar24

            @Crakar24 – seek to answer your own questions, its better that way.

            What are you a tarot card and palm reader in a fucking circus?

            Mattb was talking about Creation as in God. Thanks

            .

            So was i…..i got headaches trying to keep up with GA you will give me that and a nose bleed, im otta here MattB i suggest you do the same.


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            Mattb

            “Mattb was talking about Creation as in God.”

            No I wasn’t I talked about creation by an intelligent designer.


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            crakar24

            i assumed “intelligent designer” was code speak for God my mistake, i suppose an ID could be a group of aliens but in saying that would they still qualify as a God?


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            Rod Stuart

            “If there were no God, there would be no atheists.”
            ― G.K. Chesterton


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            Ace

            …”psychopath”…I love this. When he wrote earlier “psychotic” I SOOOO wished he had put “psychopath”. More grist to grind the cretin down with. As follows:

            Mattb, a psychopath by definition does not feel human empathy or emotion. That someone like Stephen Chu makes me so angry on account of his effect upon peoples lives that I concocted the scenario I depicted earlier would indicate the inapropriateness of the term”psychopath”.

            But its more than that. My scenario followed in sub-tending comments from my earlier description of the circumstances I am experiencing. If in Australia you cannot pay your electricity bills you have to live without air conditioning. Tough shit. If I cant pay my electricity bills…I will get hypothermia and….I die! Get it. You should try living a winter over here. IT IS a matter of LIFE and DEATh whether we can pay our heating bills. It IS made vastly harder due to “green taxes” on energy. Which collectively,people like YOU MatB have imposed on us.

            So, not only are YOU directly involved in jeopardising the very lives of many people, you cannot empathise with that nor even respond on a human level to someone (me) who has stated clearly how he is suffering (cold). That, Matb REALLY DOES mke YOU a psychopath!

            Apologies for the upper case folks but I guess you realise I am addressing a complete idiot who needs things spelled out.

            Meanwhile, although most people grasp the concept of a hypothetical situation you seem determined to show the world that you think everything is a literal description of planned events.

            Its all the more ridiculous for the fact that the scene I depicted was based on an episode of “24″ Well maybe you never saw it. Maybe you are as thick as shit. I allow Occam to decide which explanation of your obtuseness fits best.

            Then again, Matb, you seem to want to advertise the fact that you cannot read a paragraph such as the one I wrote earlier and actually comprehend what it said, even on a literallevel. I said IF in such a situation I would be “sorely tested”…which to anyone with the comprehension skills of a five year old clearly means I would not act on the opportunity. I think most people can read three sentences and understand that but not you. Dimmock.

            As dfor our friend Saint Brookes of Erewhon, if HE had to experience this and he didnt feel a hatred towards those who were contributing to thiswith their Environmentalist shite, then he wouldnt be even half feckin human.


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            Ace

            MEANWHILE…I didnt realise I was starting a debate about religion. I was reluctant to refer to “belief” but my irony lead me astray plus I dont think anyone should deny their having a belief. Although in Shia doctrine it is a religious duty to deny being a shia when in Sunni lands (its called “taqqiya”).

            Now that the topic has kicked off I should clarify my position. Firstly “belief” to me does not equate necessarily with any particular “religion”. Thats something I think I am going to spend the rest of my life working on. However, I do relate to Christianity.

            Relating to Christianity does not mean endorsing any particular church or doctrine. There are so many. And anti-theists like to stereotype us by presupposing our endorsement of particular doctrines, such as literalism.

            In that process they like to paint “belief” in terms of the early “creation myths” out of which religion emerged. To stereotype people like that is as bigoted and ignorant as saying some guy must be a good dancer and love melons because he is black.

            Well, basically, thats the level on which the “thought processes” of pin’heads like Brookes and Matb operate.

            As a scientist I dont feel any need to adduce “belief” or a deus ex machina to “explain” any aspect of the physical world.However, if we accept standard cosmological models, which I do, this as yet does nothing to address metaphysical issues and existence as opposed to non-existence (a concept that is actually among the hardest to grasp or imagine which few people ever apprehend).

            Basically, a physicist can describe physical processes in the big-bang just as he can explain the acoustics in a piece of music. But what you experience when you listen to a piece of music cannot be reduced to physical explanation (even in the most all encompassing definition to include biology and psychology). And what you experiencein being alive defies rational account. It isan emergent property and more than the sumof the parts. “Das Eine” cannot be either explained or even described,much though Phenomenology may attempt this. This becomes ever truer aswe ageand accumulate experience and insight.

            It has taken me forty years to understand this simple but elusive insight since it was first explained to me as a psychology student. I too was then a reductionist. I dont suppose for one moment that limp-nuts like Brookes or Matb are liable ever to get on the first rung of comprehension.

            Until something in experience occurs to them and impresses itself into their consciousness, as it has for me.

            Which leads to the one thing I will say to Matb …who obviously wont read any of the above or understandit if he did…I was until the age of almost 51 intensely, vehemently, scathingly, actively and loudly anti-theist and anti-religion too. So Matt…whatever you feel now…whatever you think you believe, experience can change in the future.


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            Mark D.

            Mattb asks:

            I take it we are not separated by many degrees?

            Politically: 180
            Longitude: 150
            Outside air temperature 24 hour (my coldest your warmest): 120F
            Latitude: 80
            Body temperature: Depends on if you’ve been in the sun or not…..

            So to answer your question, I think we are.


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          Mattb

          By the way Ace I totally see that your therapist/priest has given you some tools to cling to in the hope to keep you from repeat offending. So I’d rather you carried on not being extremely violent then listened to JB or myself.


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            Ace

            Like I said…Matb, with every comment you make you indicate to everyone reading that you are complete idiot who cannot read a rhetorical script without taking it literally. Its as though a child asked to say which historical figure should be thrown out of the balloon runs to the head-master claiming their teacher is a murderer.

            You are obviously such a clueless,uncomprehending idiot that you cannot even comprehend what an idiot everything you wrtite shows you to be.


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          KinkyKeith

          Yes Ace,

          People who believe in the myth of peaceful primitive tribes living in harmony could take a look at the behaviour of original inhabitants of the Southern area of Papua New Guinea.

          Horrifying raids described by those who first came across these groups.

          KK


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      Ace

      Matb…so you are really keen to show yourself the complete idiot.


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        Ace

        Basically, Brookes and “Matb” are as we see people who prefer to believe in a pretension of their own rightous and exemplary purity than acknoiwledge their common humanity. Most people in everyday life do feel anger from time to time. Most people will have no problem admitting that. Admitting it is the first step towards not acting upon it.

        But Brookes and Matb …and their type…like to pretend that they exist on some kind of plane of superior saintly exemption from such nasty human weakness. They refuse to acknowledge this weakness and fromtjis emerges the example of such as Parncutt, who set out a scheme of judicial murder of sceptics.

        As such they are exemplary Eco-Fascists.

        ——————————————————————————–


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          Ace

          …Addendum, “Belief” is not the same thing as “religion”. To refer to the former as the latter is an act of stereotyping superficiality.


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          and with the derision it deserves


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          Ace

          Feck…this came out at the top. Its supposed to be AFTER all the above:

          MEANWHILE…I didnt realise I was starting a debate about religion. I was reluctant to refer to “belief” but my irony lead me astray plus I dont think anyone should deny their having a belief. Although in Shia doctrine it is a religious duty to deny being a shia when in Sunni lands (its called “taqqiya”).

          Now that the topic has kicked off I should clarify my position. Firstly “belief” to me does not equate necessarily with any particular “religion”. Thats something I think I am going to spend the rest of my life working on. However, I do relate to Christianity.

          Relating to Christianity does not mean endorsing any particular church or doctrine. There are so many. And anti-theists like to stereotype us by presupposing our endorsement of particular doctrines, such as literalism.

          In that process they like to paint “belief” in terms of the early “creation myths” out of which religion emerged. To stereotype people like that is as bigoted and ignorant as saying some guy must be a good dancer and love melons because he is black.

          Well, basically, thats the level on which the “thought processes” of pin’heads like Brookes and Matb operate.

          As a scientist I dont feel any need to adduce “belief” or a deus ex machina to “explain” any aspect of the physical world.However, if we accept standard cosmological models, which I do, this as yet does nothing to address metaphysical issues and existence as opposed to non-existence (a concept that is actually among the hardest to grasp or imagine which few people ever apprehend).

          Basically, a physicist can describe physical processes in the big-bang just as he can explain the acoustics in a piece of music. But what you experience when you listen to a piece of music cannot be reduced to physical explanation (even in the most all encompassing definition to include biology and psychology). And what you experiencein being alive defies rational account. It isan emergent property and more than the sumof the parts. “Das Eine” cannot be either explained or even described,much though Phenomenology may attempt this. This becomes ever truer aswe ageand accumulate experience and insight.

          It has taken me forty years to understand this simple but elusive insight since it was first explained to me as a psychology student. I too was then a reductionist. I dont suppose for one moment that limp-nuts like Brookes or Matb are liable ever to get on the first rung of comprehension.

          Until something in experience occurs to them and impresses itself into their consciousness, as it has for me.

          Which leads to the one thing I will say to Matb …who obviously wont read any of the above or understandit if he did…I was until the age of almost 51 intensely, vehemently, scathingly, actively and loudly anti-theist and anti-religion too. So Matt…whatever you feel now…whatever you think you believe, experience can change in the future.


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            Ace

            …Hold on Roy, its not finished yet!

            A few more points on this topic:

            Firstly, people like Matb and Brookes presuppose moral values as tough they were a given out of thin air. Their moral values are given them by their culture. Our culture is Judaeo-Christian and its values are fundamentally andcomprehensively rooted in that origin. Every “moral” atheist is in fact acting on CChristian principles and owes his sense of moral identity to Christianity. I accepted this as historically and inarguably true even when I was anti-Christian. Some things just are.

            Secondly, atheists pretend that Utilitarianism provides morality. But Utilitarianism doesnt work like that. If, for example, a powerful person has nothjing to loseandeverything to gain by doing you harm, nothing in Utlitarianism will stop him. Theonly thing that prevents thieves going round to Brookes and Mat and walking off with all their belongings is fear of consequences, articulated by force (of the law). Aswe saw with Parncutt, only fear ofconsequences prevent Environmentalists from killing those of us who disagree with them.

            So what in “belief” for me invests morality? well its not fear of Hell and brimstone. everything significant in a life is within that life (hence my disgust at Environmentalist rhetoric about future unborn generations). What I have discovered in my belief is a higher level of the poetry of existence. This is indescribable. It may be attributable to the dopimanergic system acting on the mudulla and events in the temporal lobe. But thatdoesnt explain thesensation any more than the practical physics of acoustics explains what we feel when we listen to the Goldberg Variations. For me this is something I would not abandon.

            Ivbe said too much on a public forum where any idiot can come and throw stones. Maybe. But it needs saying.


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      Roy Hogue

      That’s the longest exchange I’ve ever seen (#35…).


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    RoHa

    “People are dying of cold weather in Ireland, the UK, the US and Russia.”

    What about Canada, Norway, Sweden, Finland, China, Korea, Japan, etc.? I know that most of these countries are pretty well organised, but I would expect a few people to slip through the cracks.


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    A C of Adelaide

    IF (and its a big if – but stay with me for the moment and lets look at the world from their eyes) the science is settled AND there has been no warming in the last 15 years ( and they seem to be conceeding this) THEN by their own logic – we must have already slipped into an Ice Age that is countering the CO2 induced global Warming. By my calculations if we had stopped pumping CO2 into the atmosphere back in 1979 like they wanted, the current global temperature anomaly would be about -1.0 C below where we are now. And about 0.8 degree C below the 1979 figure.

    Is that what they really want?????


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    sillyfilly

    Where’s William Kininmonth to put the kybosh on this article.


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    Crakar24

    Someone posted this

    http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/719139main_2012_GISTEMP_summary.pdf

    After reading it Hansen is even more assured of his place in the history of bad science and here is why.

    Page 1

    The 5-year mean global temperature has been flat for a decade, which we interpret as a combination of natural variability and a slowdown in the growth rate of the net climate forcing.

    The long-term warming trend, including continual warming since the mid-1970s, has been conclusively associated with the predominant global climate forcing, human-made greenhouse gases2, which began to grow substantially early in the 20th century

    The approximate stand-still of global temperature during 1940-1975 is generally attributed to an approximate balance of aerosol cooling and greenhouse gas warming during a period of rapid growth of fossil fuel use with little control on particulate air pollution, but satisfactory quantitative interpretation has been impossible because of the absence of adequate aerosol measurements3,4

    Page 5

    The second largest human-made forcing is probably atmospheric aerosols, although the aerosol forcing is extremely uncertain3,4. Our comparison of the various forcings (Fig. 6a) shows the aerosol forcing estimated by Hansen et al.9 up to 1990; for later dates it assumes that the aerosol forcing increment is half as large as the greenhouse gas forcing but opposite in sign. This aerosol forcing can be described as an educated guess

    If the aerosol forcing has thusly become more negative in the past decade, the sum of the known climate forcings has little net change in the past few decades (Fig. 6b). The increased (negative) aerosol forcing is plausible, given the increased global use of coal during this period, but the indicated quantification is arbitrary, given the absence of aerosol measurements of the needed accuracy. Even if the aerosol forcing has remained unchanged in the past decade, the dashed line in Fig. 6b shows that the total climate forcing increased at a slower rate in the past decade than in the prior three decades. The slight growth in the past decade is due to a combination of factors: solar irradiance decline, slight increase of stratospheric aerosols, and the lower growth rate of greenhouse gas forcing compared with the 1970s and 1980s.

    Page 6

    The one major wild card in projections of future climate change is the unmeasured climate forcing due to aerosol changes and their effects on clouds. Anecdotal information indicates that particulate air pollution has increased in regions with increasing coal burning, but assessment of the climate forcing requires global measurement of detailed physical properties of the aerosols. The one satellite mission that was capable of making measurements with the required detail and accuracy was lost via a launch failure, and as yet there are no plans for a replacement mission with the needed capabilities.

    What troubles me the most here is that Hansen relies heavily on the influence of aerosols to maintain his assertion that CO2 is the cause of planetary warming however he repeatedly informs the reader that he knows absolutely nothing about the effects of said aerosols. How can he on one hand confidently state that aerosols play a major role in the climate but then on the other claim the magnitude and even the sign of these effects are an educated guess?


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    Ross James

    What if the Earth’s Climate Cooled – (Really seriously cooled)

    Eight months of volcanic eruptions which gave off billions of cubic feet of lava and millions of tonnes of sulphur dioxide was the direct cause of famine and drought in Egypt in 1784. The famine was thought to have killed 17% of the population of the Nile Valley in addition to the 9000 Icelanders who perished in the immediate aftermath.

    The principle cause of this link appears to be the amount of sulphur dioxide released into the atmosphere. It is released with Hydrochloric Acid, which is often removed from the atmosphere through rainfall. Sulphur dioxide was carried south with the winds,combining with water in the atmosphere and producing small particles of sulphuricacid. This remained in the atmosphere, blocking out the sunlight.This led to the coldest winter Siberia had experienced for over 500 years.These cooler temperatures in the north led to a smaller difference in temperature between the land and the sea in the Indian Ocean and Atlantic Oceans. With such a smaller temperature difference there were significantly less rainclouds formed, leading to drought and inevitably, famine.
    It is thought that eruptions in the tropical areas could also lead to warmer climates in the Northern hemisphere.Researchers have been developing equipment that may be able to measure the amount of sulphur dioxide that is released in each eruption in order to enable a system of warning to societies, thus giving them time to formulate and implement emergency measures to avoid such catastrophe again.
    This abstract was checked by WhiteSmoke Solution.

    Source: http://www.shvoong.com/exact-sciences/467915-giant-eruptions-iceland-led-nile/#ixzz2Ila619Dj

    …….Franklin’s political eye was focused, but his scientific eye was attentive too. All was not well in the French countryside, where one of the worst environmental calamities of modern history was just beginning to unfold. That summer was the hottest on record, and a mysterious “dry fog” had settled across Europe. The combination of heat and air pollution was too much for the weak and elderly. Mortality spiked among farm workers and laborers across the continent.

    According to British naturalist Gilbert White, “the sun, at noon, looked as blank as a clouded moon.” When rising and setting, it was “particularly lurid and blood-coloured.” The heat was so intense that meat went bad the day after it was butchered, and swarms of flies made life miserable.

    The seeds of climate science in America were very possibly being planted as Franklin observed the changes 200+ years ago. Conditions went from bad to worse as Europe and North America were plunged into a deep freeze that winter. In its first peacetime year as an independent nation, the United States had to contend with more extreme weather than the colonies had ever experienced. New England suffered a record below-zero weather streak. The Mississippi River froze as far south as New Orleans. Ice appeared in the Gulf of Mexico.

    Other parts of the world were also in trouble. Monsoons in Africa and India were extremely weak, and rain barely moistened the African Sahel. Agriculture collapsed in the Nile Valley leading to mass starvation. Volney, the French historian, wrote, “Soon after the end of November [1784], the famine carried off, at Cairo, nearly as many as the plague; the streets, which before were full of beggars, now afforded not a single one: all had perished or deserted the city.” Within a year, Egypt had lost a sixth of its population.
    Franklin watched this extreme weather with great interest and concern. In December, 1784, he presented his ideas in a paper entitled “Meteorological Imaginations and Conjectures.” He described the dry fog, even though he was uncertain of its source, “During several of the summer months of the year 1783, when the effect of the sun’s rays to heat the earth in these northern regions should have been greatest, there existed a constant fog over all Europe, and great part of North America.” He observed the effect the fog had on the sun’s rays: “They were indeed rendered so faint in passing through it, that when collected in the focus of a burning glass, they would scarce kindle brown paper. Of course, their summer effect in heating the earth was exceedingly diminished.”

    He drew some important conclusions: “Hence the surface was early frozen. Hence the first snows remained on it unmelted, and received continual additions. Hence the air was more chilled, and the winds more severely cold. Hence perhaps the winter of 1783-4 was more severe, than any that had happened for many years.” Franklin was arguably the first American scientist to recognize the sensitivity of climate to changes in radiative forcing, and to propose that the Earth can respond in a way that reinforces the change (now known as ice-albedo feedback).

    by Mark Boslough Physicist; Fellow of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry

    ____________
    Conclusion:

    Radiative forcing from sunlight are vital for earth’s climate health. Too much or little RADICALLY alters Earth’s climate!

    It’s Sunlight …its how much is captured, prolonged and drawn into climate weather chaotic patterns by way of daily negatives – or extra postives energy +.

    ________
    Ross J.


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      Backslider

      The request was for “models”, not bullshit tying global warming to weather events that contradict them.


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        Mattb

        Yes I did indeed present science and not models. My mistake.


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          AndyG55

          There is not one bit of science in any of those “excuses” propaganda pieces.

          Most are ‘after the fact’ spin. They were trying to justify their lack of ability to forcast snow over the last few years in UK ad other northern places, without any real science or PROOF behind their “excuses”

          So…. how about answering the first question. Which model….???


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            Mattb

            OK I’ll repost here since you can’t see a couple of posts down:
            How’s this for science: http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/figure-spm-7.html

            Showing INCREASED precipitation in winter in the UK…
            “Values are multi-model averages based on the SRES A1B scenario for December to February (left)”


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            AndyG55

            lol.. read, idiot..!!!!!!

            The prophesy is for “Relative changes in precipitation (in percent) for the period 2090–2099

            roflmao.. !!!


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            Dave

            .
            MattyB may be a better mayor than predicting climate. But I doubt it after this.

            Or even bringing up the right link.

            Unbelievable isn’t it AndyG55 – 2090 to 2099.

            This wins the dickh3ad of the CAGW wankers club for sure.

            :) :) :) :) :) :)

            Bye MattyB – your odds just went to 1,000:1.


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            Mattb

            So are you suggesting that somewhere along the lines there are predictions for lower precipitation in the intervening years?

            Look you guys LOVE applying 5 years of data to try and say that a long term 100 year prediction is wrong.

            The most unfortunate thing about blogs is the time wasted communicating with ded-set morons like you two Andy and Dave. You appear to be unable to comprehend even the most basic issues. Fair dinkum.


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    Mark Allinson

    It’s as simple as this:

    WAR IS PEACE,

    FREEDOM IS SLAVERY,

    IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH,

    COOLING IS WARMING.


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    Mattb

    How’s this for science: http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/figure-spm-7.html

    Showing INCREASED precipitation in winter in the UK…
    “Values are multi-model averages based on the SRES A1B scenario for December to February (left)”


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      Ian

      Splendid Mattb Do the stippled areas show snow or rain or doesn’t that matter? The discussion here is about snowfall which is of course precipitation but and it is a biggish but for you, why if the globe is warming is the precipitation falling as snow rather than rain? You never seem to be able to grasp exactly what’s going on do you?


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      Backslider

      Your graph represents “Relative changes in precipitation (in percent) for the period 2090–2099, relative to 1980–1999.”

      Oh yes, now that’s real science…. no, ummmm…. what would you call that Mattb, like when you think about it… if you ever do that?


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    Dave

    .
    Some Climate Scientists Classic Quotes from 2000.

    1. Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia:

    “Children just aren’t going to know what snow is”
    “Heavy snow will return occasionally”

    2. David Parker, at the Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research in Berkshire:

    “British children could have only virtual experience of snow.”
    “Via the internet, they might wonder at polar scenes – or eventually “feel” virtual cold.”

    3. Professor Jarich Oosten, an anthropologist at the University of Leiden in the Netherlands:

    “that even if we no longer see snow, it will remain culturally important.”

    What a bunch of loonies chasing the money.
    And now even thousands more loonies chasing the money.

    (I’m a Climate Scientist – the most important scientific job in the universe – listen to me as the science is settled.) /sarc

    And you trolls lemmings have followed this junk for how long JB, MattyB, Nice One, Sillyfilly, Ross James, etal.


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    pat

    looking a bit messy!

    23 Jan: Herald Sun: Mark Solomons: Law firm Maurice Blackburn confirms flood maps not accurate as they prepare for class action
    The maps released by law firm Maurice Blackburn on Monday were said to show areas of Brisbane and Ipswich that the firm claims would not have flooded in January 2011 if Wivenhoe Dam had operated properly…
    But yesterday the law firm admitted the maps were inaccurate, and that it had known as much before their release on Monday.
    Instead, the lawyers said, the maps were meant “for illustrative and educational purposes” only.
    They said they would not present the maps as evidence in court and also said they would not identify the US experts in an attempt to keep them away from the media…
    Mr Scattini said the extent of flooding shown in the maps was determined by overlaying aerial imaging generated by Ipswich and Brisbane councils, the then-Department of Environment and Resource Management, and the Queensland Reconstruction Authority…
    Some Brisbane residents have complained their properties did not flood but were shown in the green area.
    Mr Scattini yesterday conceded his firm had been aware of errors but said it was not responsible for them…
    “Our own experts pointed them out to us,” he said.
    “If the Queensland Reconstruction Authority says people flooded and they didn’t, then good luck to them.”
    State Government departments contacted by The Courier-Mail declined to comment on the accuracy of the maps.
    Engineers Australia yesterday called on Maurice Blackburn to release “any credible technical evidence” to back its claims.
    Mr Scattini said that was to be expected of the professional body representing the dam engineers who are likely to be named in the lawsuit.
    He said his firm would disclose the relevant information to the Government before making it public…
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/law-firm-maurice-blackburn-confirms-flood-maps-not-accurate-as-they-prepare-for-class-action/story-fndo45r1-1226559613348

    23 Jan: Courier Mail: Kate McKenna: Residents fear flood maps may impact on land values
    Comment by Jan of Brisbane of Australia: Are these the same maps the insurance companies are using to increase their premiums?
    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/residents-fear-flood-maps-may-impact-on-land-values/story-e6freoof-1226559617008

    23 Jan: Courier Mail: Mark Solomons: Much posturing ahead of threatened legal action by lawyers representing flood victims
    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/much-posturing-ahead-of-threatened-legal-action-by-lawyers-representing-flood-victims/story-e6frerdf-1226559617407

    23 Jan: LawyersWeekly: Andrew Jennings: Jurisdiction headache engulfs flood action
    Comment by B: There is no such thing as a class action in Queensland. The UCPR simply doesn’t provide for it. Maybe a journalist can put that little nugget to Mr Scattini next time he pops his head up.
    Or maybe you can ask him why any other state has jurisdiction when its being touted as a negligence claim. Both breach and damage happened in Qld. The Defendants all reside in Qld….what’s the connection to anywhere else?
    Come on lawyers weekly, how about a few hard questions rather than just swallowing what Mr Scattini says?
    http://www.lawyersweekly.com.au/news/jurisdiction-headache-engulfs-flood-action


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      ianl8888

      :) :)

      I love it when the ambulance runs over those who are think they are chasing it

      Hard. reliable, accurate, complete technical information – as frequent as rocking horse poop in the public domain


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    Dennis

    As the new global cooling graph plunges downwards let’s make electricity and gas unaffordable for the most vulnerable people, a Fabian Socialist Labor dream about ridding the world of humans draining resources. Madness, far left extremism. Eugenics. Late 1800s dream world future world.


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    Dennis

    By the way, the German Socialist Workers Party or NAZI wanted to cull human beings, and now we have extreme Greens and their comrades Labor wanting the same outcome.


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      Dave

      .
      Dennis,

      The GANG GREENS now have a uniform in the UK.

      The Brownshirts have arrived. They even have the GANG GREEN HELMETS that are not usually available in the workplace health & safety shops. They are starting to look like a military organisation. Half way through the video they raise their GANG GREEN HELMETS in a very familiar salute to World Domination GAIA.

      What a bunch of tools – The GANG GREEN party.


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      Kevin Moore

      By the way, the German Socialist Workers Party or NAZI wanted to cull human beings

      Some balance I feel is needed.

      http://www.whale.to/b/bombing_ger.html
      (700,000 Phosphorus bombs were dropped on Dresden, deliberately killing over 500,000—During this time there were more than 1,2 Million people in Dresden, 600,000 Dresden citizens, plus 600,000 refugees from Breslau). This fits the definition of holocaust:


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        Dennis

        So do the present world new world order far left of politics people. Wake up young people, check UN Agenda 21 and more.


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        Roy Hogue

        This fits the definition of holocaust:

        Kevin,

        So does dropping the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You forgot to mention those.

        Both Dresden and the bombs were in pursuit of an end to a long, deadly war. What the Nazis did was simply coldblooded murder. I wish you would learn the distinction. :-)

        Dresden, like a long list of other things, should not have happened. But it did. And here we are. And it’s far too late to cry over it; far too late to point fingers.


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    Mike Spilligan

    From the UK: I haven’t read many of the comments, but the real point here is that BoJo is a politician and his article was an OpEd – so it wasn’t meant to be scientific with references, more of a “look here” for those (the majority) who ignore the climate “debate” and just hope for the best. The fact that a leading, high-profile politician has poked his head over the parapet does mean that other doubters may follow.
    We’ve had 5 “bad” winters out of the last 5 – but none of the extreme variety we had in cycles through the 1960s, 70s, and 80s. The problems have been caused by gullible local governments – most of them – only too willing to believe the global warming story – so they cut back on CapEx on snowploughs, gritters and on salt supplies and so on – it seemed like a win/win for them.


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    John Brookes

    I just looked at the UK version of Google News. And found nothing about cold weather. I’m sure it is cold, but the major news organisations in the UK didn’t rank the cold important enough for it to make Google news.


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    Dennis

    OK, so I am an elderly fool, over 60 years of age. I was cold last winter in Australia, I used electric radiator and an air conditioner to keep warm. The electricity cost was uncomfortable. Then 1 July 2012 the Australian circus alliance government increased electricity cost by 9% carbon tax con. $9 in every $100 of bill. Added to about $10 of every $100 of bill renewable energy levy from federal Labor. Almost 20% of electricity is tax. So I am installing a timber (Wood) heater soon. The maths add up to a saving and peace of mind, albeit with some inconvenience carrying timber and removing ashes. My life is going backwards, but I know that the cold will increase through to 2020 and beyond. So tell me, how do I deal with extreme Greenism? And Labor?


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      Mattb

      The electric radiator will be costly. I’m honestly surprised that installation and running a wood heater would stack up against the reverse cycle aircon though. The govt’s compensation should cover things though.


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        wayne, s. Job

        MattB you are living in a fools paradise it is getting to the point that the middle class can not afford basic services, let alone older people with fixed or falling income.

        Do some thinking and research, this green bullshit is destroying people, if you can not see it or work it out for your self I would suggest you leave this site because you are an idiot.


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          Mattb

          Look Wayne it is pretty simple… Dennis already has a reverse cycle air conditioner, and they are known to be the most efficient form of space heating available, so I’m just saying to Dennis that it is most likely his cheapest option, especially as he’s already outplayed the capital for the aircon unit. At 60+ I admit I did not consider collecting firewood to be a useful option.

          Bullshit the middle class can’t afford basic services I mean seriously Wayne wtf?


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            Dave

            .
            So MattyB you say talking to Dennis as 60+ then immediately label him as:

            Bullshit the middle class can’t afford basic services I mean seriously Wayne wtf?

            Why are you even debating any topic here Mr. Mayoral MattyB – that’s discrimination?

            So you know Dennis is middle class by being 60+, on the assumption of the fact he has a reverse cycle A/C.

            You are starting to make JB look smart.

            Do you enjoy being rude to your voters MattyB?


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            Mattb

            Dave I didn’t say Dennis was middle class. Wayne directly mentioned the middle class and I called bullshit. Do keep up.


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            Roy Hogue

            Matt is a politician by nature. Politicians are not known for empathy.


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            Backslider

            I’m curious Mattb – at what income level do you label somebody as “middle class”?

            Ok, for once maybe I agree with you, by my definition the middle class are simply pissed off.

            But, lets look at the working class, who are the majority – life is super tight for these people. I can’t comprehend how somebody can support a family on $40-80,000/annum.


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            Mattb

            The “middle class” have been pandered to for too long, welfare etc, have developed a sense of entitlement. It is not healthy. Love or loathe the carbon tax but my opinion is that the genuine lower class WILL be appropriately compensated. THe middle class just thinks they should be too.


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            Backslider

            I do not in any way support a carbon tax, for anybody. “Pay To Pollute” does not in any way make the World a cleaner place, which is exactly what this is and Bob, Joe and Ethel are who pay for it.

            Carbon credits are just another money making scheme, just look at the EU to really see it in action.


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      AndyG55

      Push the electricity price up so people can’t afford it.

      People turn to wood heaters, thus releasing FAR more real particulate pollution, plus using wood from somewhere..

      Not a very sensible environmental outcome.. another Green fool idea !!!


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      John Brookes

      When I lived in the hills, we used a wood heater in winter. While pleasant it was definitely an expensive way to stay warm.


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        wayne, s. Job

        Collect the wood yourself pretty cheap, it is laying every where ready for a bush fire, only the green crap rules stop you legally collecting it. If you get away with it is cheap, not too many years ago they wanted you to collect it to protect the forests. Fools


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        Dave

        .
        Too lazy to collect wood on your bike ride JB.

        Yet you didn’t even notice the comment from cohenite where people haven’t got a choice.

        You can’t see the forest for the trees JB. Why didn’t you reply to this JB?

        OH – that’s right LAZY and you just follow. FOOL


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        Roy Hogue

        50 watts at 12 volts out of a thermopile is impressive. There’s nothing wrong with basic human ingenuity. Some just don’t want to allow it to work.


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    Dennis

    Answer: I can cope, but young people beware of the lies and deception, stand up to the left and be counted, your future, your families future, depends on it. Apathy is exploited by the left.


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      Kevin Moore

      They believe they have learned what form of government would work best by installing different varieties of governments in different countries with leaders they chose, studied, and watched to see which form would be likely to meet their needs in the year 2000 and beyond. They saw different national governments as ‘projects.’ For awhile, they thought communism would be the best, until the mind control technology showed them they could covertly rule the masses without communism. With this technology, they believe they can rule the masses easily and effortlessly, and governing can be limited because they feel all of the Elite will have much the same wants, needs, and goals. They already have the central banking system in place and have a master plan for the laws, rules, and regulations that will govern those that are left. Thanks for the Memories by Brice Taylor p.281


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    LevelGaze

    Very O/T but interesting nonetheless…
    Another electric car bites the dust, this time in Australia.
    http://theage.drive.com.au/green-motoring/electric-car-dropped-as-sales-stall-20130123-2d77n.html
    Looks like the government has bought enough of them as it can (with our money) but the savvy general public don’t buy it.


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    Senex Bibax

    This is weather, not climate, but perfectly normal weather for this time of year: At 6:30 AM today, it was -30 C in Ottawa, the expected high today is -22 C, and there is a frostbite warning in effect, meaning exposed skin can freeze in less than a minute.


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    Angry

    BYE BYE GLOBAL WARMING !

    Britain braced for 40 hours of snow.

    Britain is braced for 40 hours of snow with icy winds as gas companies warn that tens of thousands of people will see their heating fail.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/weather/9808984/Britain-braced-for-40-hours-of-snow.html


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    [...] : http://joannenova.com.au/2013/01/coldwave-killing-people-in-russia-britain-and-the-us/) : [...]


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