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Cloud forming bacteria?

File this under: “How little we know.”

The upper troposphere is apparently teeming with particles of bacteria and fungi, surprising researchers.* Proving that life is tenacious and that microbes can survive just about anywhere, a team at Georgia Institute of Technology have discovered that quite a bit of what we assumed was dust and sea-salt may be bacteria aloft. Some of the little critters made it as high as the upper troposphere which is 10km up (where commercial flights cruise). No one is quite sure if the microbes “live” up there, or were just visiting.

The study showed that viable bacterial cells represented, on average, around 20 percent of the total particles detected in the size range of 0.25 to 1 microns in diameter. By at least one order of magnitude, bacteria outnumbered fungi in the samples, and the researchers detected 17 different bacteria taxa – including some that are capable of metabolizing the carbon compounds that are ubiquitous in the atmosphere – such as oxalic acid.

The bacteria were probably tossed up there by wind and waves:

When the air masses studied originated over the ocean, the sampling found mostly marine bacteria. Air masses that originated over land had mostly terrestrial bacteria. The researchers also saw strong evidence that the hurricanes had a significant impact on the distribution and dynamics of microorganism populations.

The microorganisms likely reach the troposphere through the same processes that launch dust and sea salt skyward. “When sea spray is generated, it can carry bacteria because there are a lot of bacteria and organic materials on the surface of the ocean,” Nenes said.

Microbes might seed clouds

(It’s another factor the IPCC models don’t include).

The microorganisms could have an impact on cloud formation by supplementing (or replacing) the abiotic particles that normally serve as nuclei for forming ice crystals, said Athanasios Nenes, a professor in the Georgia Tech School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences and School of Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering.

“In the absence of dust or other materials that could provide a good nucleus for ice formation, just having a small number of these microorganisms around could facilitate the formation of ice at these altitudes and attract surrounding moisture,” Nenes said. “If they are the right size for forming ice, they could affect the clouds around them.”

The clouds are alive… (maybe)

For the future, the researchers would like to know if certain types of bacteria are more suited than others for surviving at these altitudes. The researchers also want to understand the role played by the microorganisms – and determine whether or not they are carrying on metabolic functions in the troposphere.

“For these organisms, perhaps, the conditions may not be that harsh,” said Konstantinidis. “I wouldn’t be surprised if there is active life and growth in clouds, but this is something we cannot say for sure now.”

More information at Georgia Tech

Speaking of clouds and storms: thoughts go to people on the East Coast of Australia where the remnants of TC Oswald have flooded Brisbane again, four lives have been lost and it has dumped the heaviest rain in a decade on Sydney.  [See the Sydney Radar here and 24 hour rainfall map]. People are still being evacuated in Bundaberg (north of Brisbane) where waters are still rising.

 

———

* While these researchers were surprised. Lank points out in comments that an Asian study found something similar in July 2012.

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157 comments to Cloud forming bacteria?

  • #
    Joe V.

    Aren’t these too being ‘trapped’ by the CO2 ?


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    Lank blows his nose

    Over 70 million tons of Asian aerosols (mostly dust) reach the USA every year and there could be thousands of microbes per gram of dust. A surprising number of microorganisms are leaping the biggest gap on the planet. Hitching rides in the upper troposphere,and making their way from Asia across the Pacific to NA.

    For the first time researchers have been able to gather enough biomass in the form of DNA to apply molecular methods to samples from two large dust plumes originating in Asia in the spring of 2011. The scientists detected more than 2,100 unique species compared to only 18 found in the very same plumes using traditional methods of culturing, results they published in July.

    http://aem.asm.org/content/early/2012/12/04/AEM.03029-12.abstract?sid=7cab5430-6e6b-4326-bfe9-0f82293f1ea6


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    • #

      Thanks Lank. I’ve updated the post.
      The Georgia Tech researchers were surprised – perhaps they haven’t read the Asian study?
      “We did not expect to find so many microorganisms in the troposphere, which is considered a difficult environment for life,” said Kostas Konstantinidis, an assistant professor in the School of Civil and Environmental Engineering at the Georgia Institute of Technology.


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      • #
        Lank blows his nose

        These studies could also be of help in developing predictive models of disease dispersal via tradewinds. Also, they could be of tremendous value to farmers.

        Clearly, the microbes could become nuclei for rain drops and snow flakes and influence the amount of precipitation that falls. I read some estimate that 30 percent of global precipitation stems from microbes but cant find the link – sorry.


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      • #
        Water Wizard

        The obvious example of small particles causing rain is the NSW bushfires causing massive precipitation from a relatively weak storm system over a relatively cool ocean. The old saying “Fire,…then Flood rings true. Its hardly a surprise that a large fire might send particles and whatever is attached to them into the higher atmosphere. Whatever a hot air balloon will achieve a big fire is going to ditto.

        So the Qld rain was caused by NSW lack of preparation for a bushfire which was caused by a lack of money to pay for same, caused by many years of Labor spending on climate bull.


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        • #
          Lank blows his nose

          Any estimates of particulate carbon put into the atmosphere by our latest bushfires?… anyone?
          Surely this particulate black carbon ‘soot’ has a significant role in local weather. Not only in ‘seeding’ clouds but also in reflection of heat and light.

          Do the IPCC reports and climate models consider particulate carbon at all?

          If you think Australia is bad then check this neat NASA map out for Africa (it is well worth clicking the globe and running through the seasons)….
          http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/GlobalMaps/view.php?d1=MOD14A1_M_FIRE


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        • #
          Water Wizard

          You can even model where & when to expect the most precipitates and the most rainfall based on the upper wind direction and speed. Answer Burnett River catchment. Result, evacuate low lying regions based on real data.

          BoM zero out of ten. So much for rain atmospheric models. Could not even see that ex-TC Oswald would move down the coast towards the fire updraft while the descending particles became rain.

          Big fires attract clouds. The storm would have been squeezed up against the Great Divide and pushed east by the Earth’s rotation. So it moved downhill to NSW as it dumped heat. The alarm bells should have been ringing in Brisbane when it made Townsville.

          In a big fire its an opportunity to release weather balloons to find out where the particles are going.


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          • #

            Thanks Water Wizard.

            Now I think I get it why that little part of your brain that sometimes prompts you is something you need to always pay attention to.

            When I first visited Joanne’s site here, that little voice in my brain raised a flag and said I should keep this one as a regular, and come back often.

            Here’s another reason why that has proved to be the case.

            I learn more here than virtually anywhere else.

            Tony.


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  • #
    handjive

    With the discovery of life at the most extreme edges where it was thought not to exist, you know this makes sense.

    Along with the cern CLOUD experiment, this further shows all CO2 forced climate model predictions are incomplete as are wrong.

    Real science is never settled.


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  • #
    AndyG55

    I had just assumed they already knew this.


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    • #
      AndyG55

      Rain has always had “stuff” in it.


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      • #
        Kevin Moore

        AndyG55

        That “stuff” is geosin. And maybe the “stuff” in the clouds is the same “stuff” cycling.

        http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3023/what-s-that-smell-right-before-it-rains-plus

        The human nose, not normally considered a particularly acute instrument, is extraordinarily sensitive to geosmin; we can detect it at a level of just ten parts in a trillion. Today this is mostly an annoyance, since in our supercilious age many prefer the fragrance of machine oil and ozone to the sweet smell of the planet. But I’ll venture to suggest it was important in an era long past.

        Geosmin is produced by several types of bacteria and algae, which manufacture a volatile compound that can be kicked up when soil is disturbed, such as by gardening, plowing, or a hard rain. When a storm threatens and a few molecules of geosmin waft your way, that signifies rain is falling to windward, and in the fullness of time will fall on you.


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        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          That’s interesting.

          In the military, and we were taught to “sniff for rain”, but nobody knew why.

          Mind you “why” is a word that you only use once with military instructors, which is probably why nobody knew.


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  • #
    Ace

    Phew…there is such a history to this. From algae-tinted rain to Panspermia. From Fortean animal rains to The Andromeda Strain. Its not clear where fantasy ends and fiction begins. Let alone where the reality lies.

    We know very littlke about the upper atmosphere. Forastart, though generally fifty milkes is arbitrarily heldto be the beginning of “space” the Earths atmosphere extends at least 20,000 miles beyond.The very reason that withoutstation keeping sattelite orbits decay…they in fact experience atmospheric drag like an aircraft. Even the ISS if not periodically boosted will fall from orbit due to atmospheric drag.

    Chandra Wickramasingh claimed a few years ago to have actual inter-planetary organisms obtained fromred rain that fell in India.It remained unclear what it really was but explanations tended toward algae or volcanic dust.

    Apollo astronauts (as I believe shuttle crews since) reported seeing forms that moved like organisms in the high atmosphere beneath them. But the descriptions are temptingly reminiscnt of those “floaters” you can see inyour own optical fluid when looking at a bright (empty) sky.

    What preoccupies me and disinclines me to investigate this topic is the prospect of E-coli from untreated sewage wafted up into the atmosphere by wind-turbines to form a smog of fine aerosol blanket of shit accross all of us.

    But Greens love shit.They think its healthy. They love everything thats”natural” dont they. So how can they deny being shit lovers.


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  • #
    Graeme No.3

    Those bacteria are obviously climatologists.

    They rose with hot air and haven’t got any support.


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  • #
    Lank blows his nose

    Identifying the mechanisms in these bacteria for resisting ultraviolet radiation at altitude (probably involve protecting and repairing DNA), may prove invaluable to medicine.


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    • #
      Lank blows his nose

      I’d hate to think what would happen if the US military got the idea of ‘seeding’ rain drops and snow flakes with some of the particularly nasty bacteria they have developed for ‘defence’……….. scary!


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      • #
        Byron

        All good comments Lank up until that last one , knowing a few US military types , I`d say that the US military would be very low on the list to use that sort of thing , not at the bottom certainly but You would have a long read before the USA turned up on that list . Apart from the obvious whackjob types like North Korea , there`s plenty of totalitarian regimes that would cheerfully use that sort of tech/bio on Their own people as long as They got to decide Who got the vaccine

        As I said , all good before that one


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  • #
    RokShox

    Don’t bacteria typically carry a negative charge on their cell walls? Wouldn’t such a charge dramatically enhance their ability to attract the polar molecule H2O and serve as nucleation sites?

    And is there a feedback mechanism in play where warmer temperature leads to increased storminess leads to more bacteria blown aloft?


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  • #
    ursus augustus

    Increasingly the theory of AGW is starting to look gossamer thin as a scientific proposition and should we perhaps be getting used to it being found in the fantasy / religeous sections of libraries and data bases.


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  • #

    With respect to the last comment in Joanne’s main Post regarding the disaster with the flooding on the East Coast, I know this will sound like a case of my seeming picky, but there was one thing I noticed in this recent rain event.

    The Tropical Low formed in the Gulf Of Carpentaria on 17 January and spun up slowly, and was named as TC Oswald on 21 January, as a weak Cat 1 Cyclone. It moved East and crossed the West Coast of The Cape York Peninsula in North Queensland 12 hours later and was then downgraded back to a Tropical Low.

    So, this relatively weak system was a Cyclone for barely 12 hours.

    Once reaching the Pacific Ocean, it turned South and moved down the Coastline, and now, 8 days later it is moving out to sea on the South coast of NSW.

    That rain system flooded everywhere as it moved down the Coast.

    I listen to the ABC radio nearly every day, mainly on the hour for the News, and then during the half day we were without electrical power as the rain moved slowly past Rockhampton.

    Every report prefaced reports on the flooding or the weather report with either the words TC Oswald, ex TC Oswald, or former TC Oswald, subliminally suggesting that this was in fact still a Cyclone.

    As the reports started to really manifest, umm, when Brisbane started to be affected, ABC Radio actually prefaced each of its warnings with the whoop whoop whoop of the Cyclone Warning, and until you’ve heard one of these, you don’t realise how it immediately makes you prick up your ears to listen. This specific Cyclone Warning was something I remember distinctly from those days during the Wet, when I was with the Air Force and deployed on detachments to Darwin, and the three or four times I was there during the build up to Cyclones, and those Cyclone reports were always prefaced with this whoop whoop whoop, and that’s the only way to describe it really.

    Now surely all this reference to Oswald as a TC, ex TC, or former TC is not just another case of subliminal extreme weather beating up, as this is the first time I have noticed it happening. Every announcer, virtually all the way down the Queensland Coast referred to it only as Oswald.

    It just adds to the way that the ABC especially have been beating up the Weather this Summer, almost as if a conscious effort is being made for some reason or other. Before this year, Summer in Queensland was just Summer, and daily temperatures were reported matter of factly, and this Summer, all of a sudden, those normal Summer temperatures for outback Queensland are suddenly extreme.

    This rain event could actually turn out to be the biggest Cyclone to have ever struck Australia, and all this for a 12 hour weak Category 1 Cyclone.

    I can see that this might seem picky on my part, but is this not symptomatic now of not letting a (sarc)good(/sarc) disaster go to waste?

    Also, I feel sure someone will come in and mention that this tone has now been adopted as a national emergency warning signal since 1995, but it is really only ever been used with reference to Cyclone Warnings.

    Tony.


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    • #
      Streetcred

      I guess as well, Tony, that those in the MSM have little or no experience with the regions that they are commenting on … it must all be like what it is where they are located or what their memories are. Mostly, I’d say, with little relevance to understanding what is going on in a region that is, for all intent and purpose, totally foreign to them.

      In so far as I’m concerned, they are no better than prostitutes of the feral government pimps.


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    • #
      John Brookes

      You are being picky :-)


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    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      For once I agree with JB

      The Aussie media are only following their Yank mentors who still refer to the damage caused by “Hurricane” Sandi.


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    • #
      Greg Cavanagh

      I bought two newspapers on Sunday to read more about the extent of the event (since I had no power). The news articles were themselves a study on extraneous words not required to tell the story. Every expressive word they could find in the dictionary was added to each news article to beef it up. Make it more exciting or something. It was very over done, compared to my normal reading material.


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    • #
      Andrew McRae

      How’s the river near your place, Tony?
      You could be fishing for sheep by now.

      Hope your place above the water line.


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  • #
    pat

    TonyfromOz -

    it’s unbearable having the weather constantly being hyped by the MSM. sky news guy – which i saw briefly last nite – said paraphrasing:

    - floods in qld & nsw, bushfire down south, drought in new zealand, “EXTRAORDINARY” -

    people employed by the MSM seem to have lived their entire lives in the airconditioned comfort of their cars, offices and homes. it is as if weather is alien to them.

    (pdf)Nov 2012: World Resources Institute: Working Paper
    According to WRI’s estimates, 1,199 new coal-fired plants, with a total installed capacity of 1,401,278 megawatts (MW), are being proposed globally. These projects are spread across 59 countries. China and India together account for 76 percent of the proposed new coal power capacities…
    http://pdf.wri.org/global_coal_risk_assessment.pdf


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    • #

      Thanks for this pat:

      According to WRI’s estimates, 1,199 new coal-fired plants, with a total installed capacity of 1,401,278 megawatts (MW), are being proposed globally. These projects are spread across 59 countries. China and India together account for 76 percent of the proposed new coal power capacities…

      So then, let’s add some perspective to that finding.

      These plants will not be built instantaneously, but when all of these plants finally do come online and fully operational, this equates to an EXTRA 9.8 BILLION tons of CO2 being emitted every year.

      I’m so glad that our Government tells us that Australia’s CO2 Tax is lowering OUR emissions, and in case some readers can’t recognise sarcasm, no TAX will ever lower emissions.

      Tony.


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      • #
        Lank blows his nose

        Also, they are tidying up their mines….

        During last year China shut down 628 small coal mines, improved technology at 622 mines, merged 388 mines and phased out 97.8 million tons of outdated production facilities.
        http://www.mining.com/china-is-cleaning-up-its-coal-industry-at-an-astonishing-pace-45043/


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        • #
          Lank blows his nose

          Talking of China – The following video puts our construction industry to shame.
          The 30 story hotel took 15 days to build and each section has electric and water pipes installed and tested for accuracy prior to them leaving the factory.

          It appears like those “sections” formed and pre-tested at the factory, snug together like Lego building blocks.
          Also check out the earthquake resistance level…..
          https://www.youtube.com/embed/GVUsIlwWWM8?rel=0


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          • #
            Lank blows his nose

            I’m just not sure how they get the crane down from the roof.

            Guess the Chinese can’t think of everything!


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          • #
            KinkyKeith

            Hi Lank,

            First we had “MyDogsGotNoNose’ and now we have “blows his nose” and all that focus is making me a bit self conscious about my long nose.

            But the comment: thanks for that video clip on pre-packaged construction; amazing.

            It should be shown to everyone in the Australian construction industry but especially all Elected Parliamentary Representatives as a lesson in reality.

            Seeing that sort of go get it attitude explains why we have no manufacturing left in Australia: we have mental constipation on a grand scale and need a wake up call urgently.

            KK :) .


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    • #
      Bob in Castlemaine

      Yes Pat on ABC News 24 today (could only stomach 1/2hr of it) 1 “worst ever”, 2 “worst on record” and 1 “worst in history”.
      Sad and tragic though the floods are we have to expect such things. As Tony Abbott commented when asked about the prospect of a new flood levy – we live in a land of drought and flooding rains and this has been the case since records began and before.


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      • #
        Lank blows his nose

        Bob in C .. They meant ‘wurst’ … and were really meaning ground meat product sausage.
        … just lost in translation!


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        • #
          Byron

          Well it all fits neatly in with Sonny`s comment on the previous thread

          ” The thing about climate sausage is nobody knows what’s in it except for the climate science butchers!”


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    • #
      Nathan

      Charlie Pickering on The Project last night (ok ok my wife watches it) tried to make the same point only to be corrected by the weather reporter who responded with a no, it’s done it all before, nothing really new in this. He looked so disappointed.


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  • #
    BuntChE70

    Doesn’t seem to be a new discovery.

    Forrest Mims III’s daughter studied airborne transport of fungal spores and bacteria from Sahara Desert dust and smoke from biomass burning all the way to Texas.

    http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/everydaylife/Smoking_Surprise.html
    http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/SmokeSecret/
    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10453-006-9038-7


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  • #
    AndyG55

    And of course the VERY BEST WAY to help alleviate both drought and flooding, is …….

    BIG DAMS !!

    and LOTS OF THEM !!


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    • #

      Umm, and speaking of Dams.

      Have a look at this link to SEQ Water. (South East Queensland)

      Latest Dam Levels SEQ Water

      Note how all the major dams are at or over their 100% Capacity, especially the big ones.

      Note also on that graph at the bottom how the whole Water Grid 12 is at 120%. That will shrink back, but that’s Capacity for probably 7 more years water supply in SEQ, if it never rains again, and while that seems to be a big call, it’s easily verifiable, just from that same graph.

      Leave it on the default Grid 12 ticked box.

      Underneath that main graph is a time line that can be changed.

      Move the left tab to the point under where you see the spike under the year 1999.

      Now move the right tab to the low point under 2004.

      Capacity fell, during that long severe drought from 100% to just on 14% and there was still water for SEQ.

      It sort of places into perspective how long the Desal Plant will be in mothballs, eh.

      Also, and with respect to the major flood of 2011, and how Ipswich was a major disaster, have a look what happened here and what happened in 2011.

      The Bremer flows into the Brisbane River.

      When Wivenhoe reached the critical stage and they let water out like there was no tomorrow, all that water flowed past where the Bremer joins the Brisbane at Goodna. That raised the Brisbane to a large height and the Bremer flood could not now flow into the Brisbane, so it just backed up and backed up and flooded Ipswich to major proportions.

      This time, as the Bremer flooded, they shut off the Wivenhoe release so the Brisbane was only at minor flood levels, and, consequently, the floodwaters in the Bremer could now escape into the Brisbane, and what do you know, Ipswich was not flooded to the extreme it was.

      Also comparisons with this flood at 2011 show some things that might bear questioning.

      Wivenhoe was lowered to 88% prior to the major inflows this time and is currently around 130%.

      In 2011 it ranged from a low prior to the flood of around 110% to around 180% at the height of inflows when all 5 gates were open at maximum, and water was still coming in almost faster than they could release it.

      Had that level been lowered prior to the 2011 flood to around the current pre flood level of 90%, then those monster releases would not have eventuated and it could have been done in a more controlled manner with respect to what was happening in the Bremer.

      While a lesser flood this time than in 2011, it seems that lessons may have been learned from what did happen in 2011.

      That water in Wivenhoe was treated as a Government resource, a source of immense income for the Government, having raised the price of water to more than double what it did cost, it was treated as a resource, and not for what it was originally built for, water storage, but also the major point, flood mitigation following the disaster of 1974.

      Funny how different political parties have different ways of looking at things.

      Tony.


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      • #
        AndyG55

        From what I heard, the Qld Premium actually told SEQWater to start releasing a few days earlier than they might have..

        Seems he was right on the money !!


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      • #
        Speedy

        FOR SALE. One RO desalination plant, one careful owner, barely used, comes with manufacturer’s warrantee and ongoing cashflow encumberances. As recommended by Tim Flannery. Suit large state or country. Unwanted gift from previous deluded labor government. Contact Campbell Newman C/ QLD.


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        • #

          No no no!

          Keep the damned thing. It’s right beside the Gold Coast International Airport at Coolangatta.

          Every election just erect a bloody great Dayglo arrow pointing to it with the text….. “Useless – Thanks Labor”

          Everybody flying in would see it then.

          Tony.


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          • #
            Kevin Moore

            Tony

            Don’t know why but the old song which Al Johnson sang – “List to me while I tell you of the blighter who blighted my life” popped into my head. But maybe the blighter was a Spaniard.


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          • #
            Speedy

            With due respect Tony, our green/labor friends have bestowed so many white elephants on us, one less won’t make much difference. Every wind turbine, every solar panel, anything to do with the 10 billion “green fund” etc. I’d get those day-glo signs printed in bulk if I were you.

            Point taken, but.


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          Byron

          Speedy ,
          Act now and as a bonus offer We`ll throw in a Geodynamics geothermal power plant , had $90 million government dollars spent on it and never been used* , contact Tim “FlimFlam” Flannery

          * (not used it this case means never been working , that`s the same as never been used , honest!!)


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      • #
        Streetcred

        That water in Wivenhoe was treated as a Government resource, a source of immense income for the Government, having raised the price of water to more than double what it did cost, it was treated as a resource, and not for what it was originally built for, water storage, but also the major point, flood mitigation following the disaster of 1974.

        Funny how different political parties have different ways of looking at things.

        B-LIAR’s government was borrowing money to pay the wages … they should have just paid in barrels of water. OMG … that’s what they did !


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  • #
    AndyG55

    Imagine the water available to Melbourne if they had build the Mitchell River dam, and a pumping system to Thomsom Reservoir

    Imagine the stoored water for Brisbane if Wolfdenen had been build, and Wivenhoe could have been nearly emptied before the 2011 floods and before this one.
    The whole operation of Wivenhoe could be changed so it actually acts as a flood mitigation dam as originall proposed.

    And how much water would Sydney/Canberra/Goulburn have if Welcome Reef had been built.

    In each case, enough water to easily make it through the most brutal drought.

    Massive inland dams would also help that area a lot too.

    CATCH some of these huge floods and use the water properly !!


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    People are picking up on the ‘hyping’ of the weather, I was in my local Bunnings this morning and two people independently wondered where the 100km+ plus winds were.. Sydney got soaked and got off lightly on the damage front.

    Yet if one actually read the BOM warnings – it was purely for the coastal areas that strong winds were expected; some how the ‘coastal’ bit got dropped in the reporting.. My wife was convinced loads of trees were going to fall over, no such thing happenned.


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      John Brookes

      Yeah, I’m always kind of disappointed when gale force winds fail to happen as predicted. Actually, I enjoy short bursts of all weather extremes :-)


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        Roy Hogue

        Yeah, I agree. It can be loads of fun, at least if you’re safe indoors looking out at it.

        On the other hand, when it’s raining so hard you can’t see more than about 30 feet, you’re in mud up to your ankles and you’re trying to protect what once was a hot meal from the rain long enough to eat it, it’s not so much fun.

        Basic training; Fort Ord, California; January 1962.

        But it is only weather, then or now.


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      Streetcred

      As an old yachtie I was interested in seeing what the wind gusts were: Cape Morton was getting gusts at around +50 knots of wind and sustained pressure of 30 – 40 knots. In the scheme of things that’s not catastrophic … many yachties will tell you of times caught at sea in these strong wind conditions with great alacrity.

      However, Brisbane wind reports barely got above 25 knots.


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    Byron

    It does remind Me of something My biology teacher said , somewhat tongue in cheek , many decades ago before the discoveries of so many of the “extremophile” microbial life since the 1980`s

    “Anywhere life can exist it will , anywhere life can`t exist it will but it takes it a bit longer”


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      Lank blows his nose

      I agree Byron.

      Bacteria have been on this earth for over 3 billion years. They had many varieties and some grew in colonies called stromatolites which we can identify in some of our oldest known rocks when there was no oxygen in our air and likely many percent carbon dioxide, sulphur dioxide and methane… strangely, temperatures may not have been much different from today’s.

      For most of the life of earth bacteria have ruled without contest!


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    Lank blows his nose

    Bacteria in the water too….
    Hey Tony form Oz and others commenting on the terrible flooding and storms.
    I’d like to draw your attention to this amazing clip… (watch it right to the end!!)

    http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/well_done_champ/

    This is ‘sea foam’ which is caused by the agitation of seawater, particularly when it contains higher concentrations of dissolved organic matter (including proteins, bacteria, and algae).

    As the seawater is churned by breaking waves in the surf zone adjacent to the shore, the presence of these ‘surfactants’ under turbulent conditions traps air to form bubbles which stick to each other through surface tension. Due to its low density and persistence, foam can be blown by strong on-shore winds from the beach face inland onto footpaths and streets.

    Another way for bacteria to travel and mix with the locals!!


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    janama

    This is exciting news – now the bacteriologists can climb onto the AGW gravy train.


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    RoHa

    “The upper troposphere is apparently teeming with particles of bacteria and fungi…”

    Eeewwww!


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    Garry

    The ability of bacteria to act as nuclei for precipitation is no surprise. It has been used for a couple of decades in the ski resort snowmaking business.
    Snowmax was launched in the United States in 1984. The active ingredient of Snomax is a protein contained in the cellular wall of the Pseudomonas Syringae bacterium, which enables the lowering of the freezing point of water – allowing ski resorts to make snow at warmer temperatures.
    I haven’t checked, but most developments like that are first discovered in naturem then applied commercially.


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    Garry

    I’ve now checked – the bug used in Snowmax, P. syringae has, since the 1970s, been implicated as an atmospheric “biological ice nucleator”, with airborne bacteria serving as cloud condensation nuclei playing a large role in producing rain and snow. They have also been found in the cores of hailstones, aiding in bioprecipitation.
    So …. Not really a new discovery at all, just something many had forgot!


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      Warrick

      That date will be about right – I remember from my undergraduate days around then about Pseudomonas in the atmosphere nucleating hail and rain. That’s probably quite a bit lower than this study, but if at cloud level, why the surprise that bacteria might exist higher up?


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      John Brookes

      I’ve heard on more than one occasion in the past that rainfall is greater over forested areas than it is over adjacent areas cleared for farming. Could it be that the forests emit particulates that help clouds form?


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        Water Wizard

        Forests transpire. The water evaporates and cools the air above it. In a dense forest the air temperature can drop a few degrees above the forest. This can cause rain. When forests burn this increases the droplet numbers and size in the atmosphere. So clouds form over forests. So forests are important. Without them there would be far less rainfall.

        An interesting experiment is to see how clean is the water evaporated from a plants leaves as it transpires. I can put a pot plant in the shade in a plastic bag and not water it for two weeks. Seems to make it grow faster. As no residue collects on the inside of the plastic bag I can only assume the process “cleans” the water.


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          Water Wizard

          What I meant was that a forest cleans the air by using the particulate matter in solution in the rain. As the plant is not covered in dust the forest leaf is designed to flow water off it at very low water volume. Transpiration normally occurs from under the leaf. The rainfall pH would affect the water flow off the leaves. A low pH may allow the bacteria in solution to grow on the plant leaf. This would cause disease in the forest. So acid rain may not be the problem. It may be the bacteria that spreads with acid rain, or both. Usually we spray a tree with a weak acid to prevent fungal diseases when there are no leaves.


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        Dave

        .
        JB,

        Could it be that the forests emit particulates that help clouds form?

        No! The whole of the Aussie landscape operates on a cyclic nature only. Everything has to be included – even the farmers fields and also the items Water Wizard says above.

        JB – You’re from WA and the biggest problem occuring currently is water retention in the soil along with fertility – mainly caused by bad farming, pastoral practices from the past, and current with very few people (including government and CSIRO) understanding how the landscape of Australia works now, as opposed to how good it could be if we changed our current practices.


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      • #
        Kevin Moore

        Water is particular!

        http://www.forestclimate.org/desert-australia.html

        Sydney Morning Herald
        March 4, 2005

        Fewer trees, less rain: study uncovers deforestation equation
        By Richard Macey

        Australian scientists say they have found proof that cutting down forests reduces rainfall.

        The finding, independent of previous anecdotal evidence and computer modelling, uses physics and chemistry to show how the climate changes when forests are lost.

        Ann Henderson-Sellers, director of environment at the Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organisation, at Lucas Heights, and Dr Kendal McGuffie, from the University of Technology, Sydney, made the discovery by analysing variations in the molecular structure of rain along the Amazon River.

        Not all water, Professor Henderson-Sellers said, was made from the recipe of two atoms of “common” hydrogen and one of “regular” oxygen.

        About one in every 500 water molecules had its second hydrogen atom replaced by a heavier version called deuterium. And one in every 6500 molecules included a heavy version of the oxygen atom.

        Knowing the ratio allowed scientists to trace the Amazon’s water as it flowed into the Atlantic, evaporated, blew back inland with the trade winds to fall again as rain, and finally returned to the river.

        “It’s as if the water was tagged,” she said.

        While the heavier water molecules were slower to evaporate from rivers and groundwater, they were readily given off by the leaves of plants and trees, through transpiration.

        “Transpiration pumps these heavy guys back into the atmosphere.”

        But the study showed that since the 1970s the ratio of the heavy molecules found in rain over the Amazon and the Andes had declined significantly.

        The only possible explanation was that they were no longer being returned to the atmosphere to fall again as rain because the vegetation was disappearing. “With many trees now gone and the forest degraded, the moisture that reaches the Andes has clearly lost the heavy isotopes that used to be recycled so effectively,” Professor Henderson-Sellers said.

        Tom Lyons, professor of environmental sciences at Perth’s Murdoch University, said there was now “certainly very strong evidence that changes in surface conditions have an impact on the climate. In some parts of the world the impact is very marked”. The Amazon research “helps us understand the mechanism”.

        Professor Henderson-Sellers said the average water molecule fell as rain and re-evaporated fives times during its journey from the tropical Atlantic to the river’s starting point in the Andes mountains. Forests played a vital role in keeping the heavy molecules, and their far more common relatives, moving through the water cycle.

        “People will tell you that when you remove the forests it rains less,” she said, adding, however, such anecdotal evidence, and even computer modelling, did not convince everyone.

        “This is the first demonstration that deforestation has an observable impact on rainfall.”

        Copyright (c) 2005. The Sydney Morning Herald.

        http://abc.net.au/science/news/stories/2007/2073363.htm

        Native trees key to cooling climate
        Dani Cooper
        ABC Science Online

        Tuesday, 30 October 2007

        Extensive clearing of native trees is making Australian droughts hotter and is an under-recognised factor in climate change, research shows.

        The study by researchers from the University of Queensland and Queensland’s Department of Natural Resources and Water shows that land clearing made the 2002-3 drought in eastern Australia 2°C hotter.

        The research, published online in the journal Geophysical Research Letters, also found average summer rainfall has decreased by between 4-12% in eastern Australia and by 4-8% in southwest Western Australia because of land clearing.

        These are historically the regions in Australia that have been most extensively cleared of native vegetation.

        Dr Clive McAlpine, of the university’s Centre for Remote Sensing and Spatial Information Science, says about 13% of the Australian continent has been cleared of native vegetation since European settlement in 1788.

        However, in many agricultural areas in eastern Australia and southwest Western Australia more than 90% of native vegetation has been cleared.

        “This study is showing Australian climate is sensitive to land clearing,” he says.

        “And our findings highlight that it is too simplistic to attribute climate change purely to greenhouse gases.

        “Protection and restoration of Australia’s native vegetation needs to be a critical consideration in mitigating climate change.”

        What’s the impact?

        Dr McAlpine says the research used the same modelling system as the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change to determine the impact of land clearing.

        It simulated climate scenarios for the country using data on pre-European settlement vegetation coverage and 1990 vegetation coverage for Australia.

        This showed more than 150 years of land clearing had added significantly to the warming and drying of eastern Australia.

        He says native vegetation plays an important role in moderating climate because it is deep rooted, which leads to more moisture evaporating into the atmosphere over a longer period.

        This is then recycled into the environment as rainfall.

        Native vegetation also reflects less short-wave solar radiation into the atmosphere than crops, which keeps the surface temperature cooler and helps in cloud formation.

        Looking to the future

        McAlpine says the findings should help in the development of policies to deal with the effects of climate change.

        “The first thing is we need to protect what vegetation remains,” he says.

        “We also need to carefully consider in regions such as Queensland where there is a lot of regrowth how we protect that so we are not leaving the landscape vulnerable.

        “And we need initiatives in southern Australia to restore native vegetation.”


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        Mark D.

        Good question John Brookes, http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/335144/description/Cloud_seeding_by_trees_could_alter_precipitation_climate

        It’s pay-walled (sorry)

        It occurs to me that the flora may be able to cause all kinds of weather and may do it on purpose to assist in reproduction, and even to eliminate some competition.

        They might even be able to alter climate…….


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  • #
    Lank blows his nose

    Everyone knows that the Titanic sank in 1912 to the sea floor at water depths of about 3.8 kilometres.
    Many do not know that the bacterium Halomonas titanicae is ‘eating’ the Titanic and is likely to complete the removal of >50,000 tonnes of iron by 2040!

    The bacteria leave “rusticles,” or icicle-like deposits of rust. The porous rusticles will eventually dissolve into fine powder.
    http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=80696&i=11461

    As I said…. bacteria rule the world!


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    • #
      dlb

      Iron metabolising bacteria are quite common, they produce the orange slime you often see in still ponds. Apparently they use dissolved iron a bit like we use sugar, in this case the waste is Fe2O3 (rust).

      I know, instead of burning coal we can go rust some iron!


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      • #
        Lank blows his nose

        dlb – you must have missed that class.

        ‘Rust’ as we call it is the result of a chemical reaction of iron oxidation by oxygen. Under 3.8km of water these microbes have NO oxygen. The water pressure is extreme (only several submersibles can venture to these depths), there is zero light and temperatures are only a couple of degrees centigrade. the water has elevated sulphur and is very salty.
        This bacteria was discovered by Canadian researchers when material was dredged from the wreck. The bacteria produces it’s energy from chemical reactions not involving oxygen. It is only known on the Titanic because that is about the only place we have looked.

        Lets be realistic, more than half of our oceans are greater than 3.8km deep (much of the earth’s surface) so what other microbes are there to be discovered? You would be amazed at what is currently being dredged up in microbe-land!

        I think my play on the words bacteria are “king of the world’ was lost on many readers. Any one seen the film?


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          dlb

          Lank – Rust, what the Titanic is doing is iron oxide. The oxygen has got to come from somewhere. The bottom of the ocean may be deficient in dissolved oxygen but it is not absent. These bacteria have evolved in this low oxygen environment to utilise what there is. Without the bacteria metabolising the iron, the rust chemical reaction would be extremely slow.


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            Lank blows his nose

            dlb this microbe is chemo-organotrophic and it is capable of anaerobic growth with the aid of glucose but in addition it is able to perform denitrification to gain energy through taking nitrate (not nitrite), and converting it to nitrogen.

            It is the main bacteria in the picture (linked above) but there are several dozen other species in this ‘primordial soup’. No-one yet understands how these different species interact. There is much to be discovered!


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            Lank blows his nose

            dlb – You are of course correct there is some oxygen in deep waters – just not much of it! and it is clearly controlled by water currents, temperature etc.
            This link is a very good summary of the chemistry down there. Sarah Don makes some very interesting points about the contribution of wood etc on the Titatic and the effects of low pH and temperature. However, she makes little account of the very high pressure, absence of light, high salt contents or the variety of microbes in this ecosystem.
            http://www.scribd.com/doc/11337904/Titanic-Resting-or-Reacting


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            Water Wizard

            The Titanic used rivets for connecting plates. For the double lined keel and ribs a hydraulic rivet machine would have used. It uses steel rivets similar to the plates. Most of the rest would have been done by hand and be wrought iron rivets. The steel and wrought iron would interact electrically and release oxygen in the process. This would eat into the tensile cracks along a line of rivets and the steel plates would unravel. So the keel will be left while the sides peel off. The rust eating bacteria are just opportunists. No doubt they are emerging from the plate spaces as the plate space expands. A grease was probably used between riveted plates. The bacteria lived in the hydrocarbon. Typically the oxygen rises and the bacteria growth rise up with the oxygen. This gives the impression that a rusticle hangs down even though it is growing upwards from a set of wrought iron rivets.


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      Roy Hogue

      As I said…. bacteria rule the world!

      No, no, no! It’s cockroaches that rule the world. Bacteria are just servants of the cockroaches. You could nuke the world to a cinder and the cockroaches would still be here but not the bacteria.

      Cockroaches are the one indestructible species in the whole universe.


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    Denier666

    Brisbane flooding due to Global warming?

    Wikipedia
    The 1893 Brisbane flood, occasionally referred to as the Great Flood of 1893 or the Black February flood, occurred when the Brisbane River burst its banks on three occasions in February 1893. It is the occurrence of three major floods in the same month that saw the period named “Black February”. There was also a fourth flood event later in the same year in June. The river runs through the centre of Brisbane in the Australian state of Queensland,with much of the population living in areas beside the river. It was flooded in the first flood due to a deluge associated with a tropical cyclone, called “Buninyong”.[1][2]


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    Bloke down the pub

    Looks like someone is going to have to visit Venus to check the clouds there for life.


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    Anton

    Interesting… and also gives another meaning to Horizontal Gene Transfer, wit possible consequences for evolution.


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    Joe Lalonde

    Jo,

    I have been trying to understand why our differences in atmospheric height and why our poles should be totally melted or totally frozen.
    The slower rotation at the poles exposes it to more sun or darkness due to tilting but our atmosphere shape changes a great many parameters of focusing that energy to the equatorial regions.
    If our planet can make an eyeball out of liquid that changes the focus due to shape, why cannot our vastly larger atmosphere to planet do the same considering it is different layers of gases and water vapour.
    The sun gives our planet only 1/500,000 of the energy it is producing and that starts to spread out and defuse over distance.
    The atmosphere focusing energy would catch a great deal more energy than the size of our planet.
    Considering the distance measurement is always changing when you measure that layering circumferences.
    This would explain many phenomenons we currently have such as cloud s defusing that focused energy and hazy days can increase that heat focus.
    Certainly easy to recreate with magnifying glass.

    As for bacteria, many of our meteors and comets carry water that scientists have found to have virtually identical composition to our rich life environment of oceans.


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    Sonny

    My conspiracy alarm bells are ringing BIG TIME.

    Suddenly aerosol delivered bilogocical weaponary has a natural explanation.

    God Help Us All


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    • #
      Sonny

      Simple google search:

      “chemtrails bacteria”

      It seems that the conspiracy theorists have known for a while that there is bacteria in the stratosphere. Modern science is finally catching up!

      The question is how did it get there? Was it man-made? Is it natural?

      I man-made what is it’s purpose and why is this not being disclosed,

      Cloud seeding? Weather Mod? Possible.
      Weaponization of the skies? Possible.
      Naturally occurring? Also Possible.

      The implications of this disx


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        Byron

        Nooooo ! Don`t even joke about it , We`ll have foil hatters turning up at the site with such gems as

        “nobody ain`t seen no so-called contrails in the sky `til 1984 `n that means they must be chemtrails , `n besides me cousin sez so and he worked as a cleaner for the government so He orta know”

        When confronted with WW2 video of hundreds of b-17`s streaming contrails at altitude:

        “They`ve been planning it a long time , the guvmint faked the footage in WW2 just to cover up them sprayin` ma house in 1990 ,”

        ” They aint bombers , they`re sprayin` fer mosquitos then , now they`re sprayin` fer me”


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          Sonny

          You’re right,
          Nobody who talks with a Southern American accent with poor English skills could be correct. Well argued.


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            Byron

            That was meant to be a bit of levity ,
            the actual reason I`m not a believer in conspiracy theories ESPECIALLY long running ones that would require an extraordinary amount competence on behalf of successive governments to maintain for those lengths of time is because …………….they would require competence on behalf of governments . We`ve SEEN cover-ups attempted by governments and they have all the finesse of someone trying to hide a 6’6″ body under a 3′ square rug


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            Crakar24

            What if they cut the body in half?


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    Andrew McRae

    I, for one, welcome our new bacterial overlords.


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    Shevva

    Could just be a place they go for holidays, we all need a break form the debt slave society we live in, even the bacteria kind in our society.

    *cough*Mann*cough*


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    Roy Hogue

    At 10 km up and higher where those big jets cruise (30 – 37 thousand feet) the temperature is constantly -60 to -65 F (-51 to -54 C). It takes some pretty tough stuff to even survive in that environment, much less be active enough to breed. They’re impressive little things just for that, whatever else they may be.

    I still don’t know about the conspiracy theories though — too farfetched for me.


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    Sonny

    O golly gosh look bacteria is in the news a lot lately:

    http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/01/24/1490981/antibiotic-apocolypse/?mobile=wp

    Warnings of “antibiotic apolocolypse” In “thinkprogress”???

    So now we have killer bacteria and the means by which they are spread globally.

    And somehow it’s all linked back to global warming and climate change… How interesting…


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    Kevin Moore

    ABC news this morning – Australian government donated $10 million to Mali. Meanwhile the good folk of Australia are asked to donate to the flood appeal.


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    elva

    I’m fed up of the BOM or climate centre modelling forecasts. Here in Brisbane and all along the east coast of Australia we are in the midst of the worst rainfall event since 2011.

    Yet during 2012 the BOM kept ‘tossing the coin’ saying we were in for a dry summer then a wet summer then a wet summer then a dry one. The last dry summer forecast meant the Wivenhoe dam was allowed to fill to 100% drinking water level. Thanks to the Premier, Campbell Newman, the level was dropped before the rains hit. Then he was able to shut the flood gates letting the Bremer river (no dam flow into the Brisbane river without extra load from Wivenhoe.

    Once the peak has passed the Wivenhoe can release more water even down to well below drinking levels. Good to see him ditch manuals and models.

    But in “The Courier Mail” today I see the BOM is having another toss of the coin saying the rest of summer will be dry. Why don’t they throw their useless, expensive computers into the Yarra river? If they can’t model 2 days ahead or one season how can they do it for 100 years.


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    pat

    and australian coal exports account for how much of China’s CO2 emissions?

    China accounts for nearly half of global coal use: U.S.
    WASHINGTON, Jan 29 (Reuters Point Carbon) – China now accounts for just under half of the world’s consumption of coal after burning more of the fossil fuel for a 12th consecutive year in 2011, according to data from the U.S. department of energy (DOE)…
    http://www.pointcarbon.com/news/1.2159131?&ref=searchlist


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    pat

    EU carbon dips 2.4 pct despite well-bid auction
    LONDON, Jan 29 (Reuters Point Carbon) – EU carbon dropped 2.4 percent on Tuesday despite a successful EU auction, as traders said low power prices were discouraging utilities from entering the market…
    http://www.pointcarbon.com/news/1.2159033?&ref=searchlist

    EU CO2 permit glut could hit 1.8 bln units this year: analysts
    LONDON, Jan 29 (Reuters Point Carbon) – The supply of EU carbon allowances will exceed demand by up to 200 million units in 2013, pushing the glut of permits crushing the European emissions market to as much as 1.8 billion by the end of the year, analysts said on Tuesday…
    http://www.pointcarbon.com/news/1.2159112?&ref=searchlist


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    pat

    30 Jan: Canberra Times: Nicholas Stuart: Climate change solution gets lost in political fog
    Date
    A simple, logical argument has been mishandled.
    I can’t help it: I’m a contrarian. Whenever the weather bureau predicts there’s “a 95 per cent probability of rain” I’m willing to bet it will be dry. And that’s why – at about ten to seven last Saturday night – I was getting absolutely soaked as I stood by the barbecue…
    The next day I went into the newsagent. A large pile of Tim Flannery’s latest Quarterly Essay (“Now or Never: A Sustainable Future for Australia”) was still sitting near the papers. I asked if many people had been buying copies, but the proprietor said it had barely moved. “So what”, I asked, “do you reckon the problem is? Don’t people believe in climate change?”
    He paused. “Yeah,” he said, sighing, “I don’t think that’s the problem. Something’s happening. But I don’t know that he’s going to tell us the answer.”
    Sticking your neck out is always a risk. It’s to Flannery’s credit that he’s been prepared to mortgage his credibility totally on something that he so utterly believes in. And, just to get this straight right now, I agree that climate change is occurring and I have little doubt that it’s being caused by the increasing amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere. I do think we need to act now to reduce carbon emissions and I do believe that, even though Australia’s contribution to the problem is small, it is vital that we demonstrate to the rest of the world that we’re not simply freeloading on the efforts of others…
    The extremely hot temperatures in the seas off Queensland made it highly likely there would be a devastating cyclone at some time this summer. But the torrential rains could very easily have come earlier or later or, indeed, not at all. The vagaries of different conditions make exact prediction impossible. The BoM understands this…
    When John Howard was prime minister, Tony Abbott was quite prepared to accept the wisdom of a scheme to cap carbon emissions. What’s changed today? Certainly not the science…
    Even if the government’s policy significantly reduces our own emissions production (an assertion that appears more and more dubious by the day), the climate is changing. People don’t really care why things are happening, but they are interested in scientific best guesses about what change will mean for particular areas…
    Will tropical Queensland have to deal with torrential floods every second year? Is there a way of channelling that water inland? Will fires continue burning inland Victoria? Will we still be able to obtain insurance? And why doesn’t the government act to bolster civil defence?
    Disappointingly, these are questions for which neither political party seems prepared to attempt to find an answer. Perhaps the reason is they’re frightened of the results. Not the dire climate predictions but the other thing, which for them is a far more terrifying reality. That this is a problem for which no politician has an answer.
    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/opinion/climate-change-solution-gets-lost-in-political-fog-20130129-2dj17.html

    the writer – Nicholas Stuart:

    Nicholas Stuart joined the ABC in 1985, worked in Radio News, ABC Radio Current Affairs, and ABC TV, and was the ABC’s Indochina correspondent before returning to Australia after a severe car accident. He is a regular columnist for the Canberra Times, and has written a trilogy of critically acclaimed books analysing Labor and politics…
    He is married to Catherine McGrath, the political editor of Australia Network…
    http://scribepublications.com.au/books-authors/title/rudd-s-way/

    Wikipedia: Australia Network
    Australia Network, originally Australia Television International and later ABC Asia Pacific, is a free-to-air international satellite television service operated by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation since 2006…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_Network


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      Water Wizard

      Sorry Nicholas has no idea what he is talking about.

      “The extremely hot temperatures in the seas off Queensland made it highly likely there would be a devastating cyclone at some time this summer. But the torrential rains could very easily have come earlier or later or, indeed, not at all. The vagaries of different conditions make exact prediction impossible. The BoM understands this…”

      He seems to have implicated the BoM in his opinion. BoM forecasts must fit their budget model. If it does not support GW it is not going to happen. If you pay them for GW then you will get GW.

      For a start the actual data available on the BoM web site for temperatures of the Coral Sea surface show that it is colder than normal. This is based on satellite height measurements and a few buoys. That is not to say there are enough buoys, there need to be more, that means changes to the CG budget. The NW conditions are better monitored with a lot of submarine data. The NW was hotter than normal. So the first cyclone was always going to be in the NW. If it exceeded Cat 3 it would cool down the water. It has done so. Now we can expect very little rain in Victoria till April. However, there will be a very cold winter around the solstice and four weeks after it. Its going to be a great snow season in late July.

      So its cooled off in the SE of Australia. Little thunderstorm activity so few natural fires. The water in the Gulf of Carpenteria is shallow and easily heated. However, the monsoon in Queensland failed right up to the point when NSW started to burn. So right on cue a small cyclone starts and gets fed by the fires ash & particulate matter. So far the BoM knows zip. Can’t even predict the storm path or rainfall intensity when there was a clear week to get it done. As for what may happen 10, 20 or 50 years from now, well……

      If NSW has no more bush fires of any size, SE Queensland & northern NSW is going to be dry for the rest of this “wet” season. Expect a mild El Nino.


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        Sugarplumfairy

        So far the BoM knows zip. Can’t even predict the storm path or rainfall intensity when there was a clear week to get it done.

        The BOM forecast dated 5.05am 24 January.

        Bureau of Meteorology
        Queensland Regional Office

        TOP PRIORITY FOR IMMEDIATE BROADCAST

        SEVERE WEATHER WARNING
        for DESTRUCTIVE WINDS and HEAVY RAINFALL
        For people in the Northern Tropical Coast and Tablelands, Herbert and Lower
        Burdekin, Central Coast and Whitsundays, Capricornia and parts of the Peninsula,
        Northern Goldfields and Upper Flinders, Central Highlands and Coalfields and
        Wide Bay and Burnett Forecast Districts.

        Issued at 5:05 am Thursday, 24 January 2013.

        Synoptic Situation:

        At 4am, Ex-Tropical Cyclone Oswald was situated approximately 110km south
        southwest of Cairns and moving in a south southeast direction at about 13
        kilometres per hour. The monsoon trough extended from Ex-Tropical Cyclone Oswald
        down along the Queensland east coast to near Gladstone.

        Destructive winds, with gusts in excess of 125 km/hr, and heavy rain, which may
        lead to flash flooding, are possible about the Central Coast and Whitsundays
        district. Locations which may be affected include Mackay, Proserpine, Sarina and
        the Whitsunday Islands.

        Damaging winds, with gusts to 90 km/hr, are possible in the North Tropical Coast
        and Tablelands, Herbert and Lower Burdekin, Capricornia and eastern parts of the
        Peninsula districts. Locations which may be affected include Lockhart River,
        Cooktown, Port Douglas, Cairns, Innisfail, Townsville, Bowen, St Lawrence and
        Gladstone.

        Heavy rainfall, which may lead to flash flooding, is likely in the North
        Tropical Coast and Tablelands, Herbert and Lower Burdekin, Capricornia, northern
        parts of the Wide Bay and Burnett, eastern parts of the Central Highlands and
        Coalfields, eastern parts of the Northern Goldfields and Upper Flinders and
        eastern parts of the Peninsula districts. Six hour rainfall accumulations of 100
        to 200 mm are possible. This heavy rain may also worsen the existing flood
        situation across parts of north Queensland. Locations which may be affected
        include Port Douglas, Cairns, Mareeba, Innisfail, Townsville, Bowen, Charters
        Towers, Rockhampton, Gladstone and Bundaberg.

        And from 1.15am Friday 25 January

        For people in the Capricornia, Wide Bay and Burnett and parts of the Central Coast and Whitsundays, Central Highlands and Coalfields and Southeast Coast Forecast Districts.
        Issued at 1:15 am Friday, 25 January 2013.
        Synoptic Situation:
        At 10pm, Ex-Tropical Cyclone Oswald was located over land, approximately 150 km west-northwest of Mackay and moving south-southeast at about 20 kilometres per hour. The monsoon trough extended from the Gulf of Carpentaria to Ex-Tropical Cyclone Oswald and then to the east coast near Fraser Island.
        Destructive winds with gusts in excess of 125 km/hr are possible about the Central Coast-Whitsundays and Capricornia districts. Areas that may be affected include islands and coastal areas between Mackay and Agnes Water.
        Damaging winds with gusts to 90 km/hr are possible over the Wide Bay and Burnett district. Areas that may be affected include islands and coastal locations between Agnes Water and Sandy Cape.
        Heavy rainfall which may lead to flash flooding is likely over southern parts of the Central Coast-Whitsundays, Capricornia, Wide Bay and Burnett, eastern parts of the Central Highlands and Coalfields, extending to the Sunshine Coast during Friday and possibly reaching areas north of Brisbane late in the day. Coastal locations and adjacent inland areas between Mackay and Brisbane may be affected. Six hour rainfall accumulations of 100 to 200mm are possible. Heavy rain areas are expected to begin easing from the Central Coast-Whitsundays district during Friday morning.
        At around 1am Friday, severe flash flooding has been reported in the Yeppoon area where rainfall of 58mm has been recorded in the last hour, and 198mm in total since 9am Thursday.

        Truth is the BOM were spot on with their forecasts for ex TC Oswald.


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          Water Wizard

          The BoM ‘predict’ things when they become obvious. They could have predicted this weather pattern when the fires became big in NSW and wind directions were known. The could have predicted the likelihood of fires causing this weather pattern.

          They get a VERY large budget. Its time to remove the GW dept. drop it off a cliff.

          “NSW Bushfires: Additional Natural Disaster Assistance
          10th January 2013

          Premier media release

          NSW Premier Barry O’Farrell and Federal Minister for Emergency Management Nicola Roxon today announced Natural Disaster Assistance will be made available in a further eight Local Government Areas (LGAs) in NSW affected by bushfires – bringing the total number of LGAs eligible for assistance to 45.

          “A very high level of threat continues for many communities around NSW and our emergency services personnel are working around the clock to contain these threats,” Mr O’Farrell said.

          “Individuals and families, farmers, small business owners and councils affected by these bushfires need to know that help is there for them as they recover from this disaster.”

          Natural Disaster Declarations have been made in the following eight LGAs, which will now lead to joint Commonwealth-state funded disaster assistance becoming available for these communities;

          Bland

          Carrathool

          Griffith

          Hay

          Leeton

          Murrumbidgee

          Narrandera

          Temora

          Natural Disaster Declarations were made in the following 37 LGAs yesterday;

          Albury

          Berrigan

          Blayney

          Boorowa

          Cabonne

          Conargo

          Coolamon

          Cooma-Monaro

          Cootamundra

          Corowa

          Cowra

          Deniliquin

          Forbes

          Goulburn Mulwaree

          Greater Hume

          Gundagai

          Harden

          Jerilderie

          Junee

          Lachlan

          Lockhart

          Murray

          Orange

          Palerang

          Parkes

          Queanbeyan

          Shoalhaven

          Snowy River

          Tumbarumba

          Tumut

          Upper Lachlan

          Urana

          Wagga Wagga

          Wakool

          Weddin

          Yass Valley

          Young

          More Local Government Areas may be declared in coming days as further assessments are completed.”

          They clearly had several weeks to predict the Queensland weather pattern if their models are any good. The data on their web site gave plenty of clues.


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            Sugarplumfairy

            Can you refer me to your published forecasts from several weeks ago predicting TC Oswald and all its ramifications? I must have missed them.

            Or are you just all piss and wind?


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            Water Wizard

            “Senator the Hon Don Farrell

            Parliamentary Secretary for Sustainability and Urban Water
            Strengthening the Bureau of Meteorology

            Media release
            8 May 2012

            The Gillard Government will improve the capacity of the Australian Bureau of Meteorology to respond to severe weather events by boosting funding in the 2012-13 Budget.

            “Recent extreme weather events like the devastating floods in Queensland and Victoria, bushfires in Western Australia and tropical cyclone Yasi have highlighted the growing demands on forecasting services,” Parliamentary Secretary for Sustainability and Urban Water Senator Don Farrell said today.

            “At times like this, it’s critical Australians have access to up to the minute weather information and world’s best forecasting.

            “That is why this year’s Budget will provide additional funding of $4.8 million in 2012-13 to increase the Bureau’s frontline capabilities.

            “This will involve the employment of up to 20 expert meteorologists, recruitment and training of up to 10 new local meteorologists and recruitment and training of up to 10 additional flood forecasters.

            “The measures announced today will provide the Bureau with better access to the skills and expertise it needs to respond to extreme weather events,” Senator Farrell said. Last year, the government initiated an independent review into the Bureau’s capacity to provide seasonal forecasting services and to respond to extreme weather events and natural disasters.

            The strengthening of frontline staffing capacity is one aspect of the government’s response to the review, which will be released shortly.

            The Bureau of Meteorology will also trial a recommendation from the review that the Bureau host advertising on its website.

            “The one-year trial will involve strict guidelines about the type of advertising permitted on the site,” Senator Farrell said.

            Revenue raised from this trial will contribute to the improvements in forecasting announced today.

            At the end of the trial the government will make an assessment as to whether advertising will continue on the Bureau’s website.”

            So we paid an extra $4.8M and got zip.


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            Water Wizard

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZwy1dR0oM4

            This set of videos explains some of my predictions.


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            Sugarplumfairy

            Whoopee!!!!

            But you continually miss the point.

            You claimed the BOM were wrong about TC Oswald. I asked for your published forecasts from several weeks ago but it looks like there were none. Piss and wind???? Yeah!

            OK Sunshine, seeing you know more than the BOM, here’s your chance at redemption.

            Give us, here and now, your detailed forecast for each day of February for the area 140E to 155E, 10S to 40S, and we’ll see how good you are. You can include things like Maximum and Minimum Temps : Rainfall – Totals and Intensity by region, any cyclones we may have in the pipeline and those odd little things like Tornadoes etc. You can throw in bushfires as well.

            You have three hours: I’m waiting.


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            Water Wizard

            Hand over the $4.8M and I’ll get to work on it. It will be accurate. I do not see anything in a spreadsheet from the BoM.


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            Sugarplumfairy

            Why would you need $4.8m??? You said you know more than the BOM, so where is your forecast for February???? If you are going to make these sorts of calls mate, be prepared to follow through,

            As I thought, all talk no action.

            Piss and wind, big time.


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            Water Wizard

            Now you are missing the major point. Australians pay the BoM for accuracy in advance. We get a clouded view of what may happen because there is a gemlin called “I can get a bigger budget if I agree to all the mumbo jumbo about GW.”

            Now you want an accurate report day by day for the coming month of February for the East Coast of Australia and you want it all for free in 3 hours. Why Tasmania and western Queensland missed out is a bit revealing.

            Simply the BoM get paid too much and produce too little.


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            Sugarplumfairy

            Now you want an accurate report day by day for the coming month of February for the East Coast of Australia and you want it all for free in 3 hours.

            But you said you knew what was going to happen in January, so where’s the problem. You say you’re better than the BOM so prove it. Show us your forecast for February.

            Why Tasmania and western Queensland missed out is a bit revealing.

            I was making it easier for you, but if you reckon you can do all of Australia go for it.

            But hey, you are so good, you might as well do the whole planet.

            Still waiting.

            Simply the BoM get paid too much and produce too little.

            And you have produced what??????


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          Sugarplumfairy

          As for your video, I’d say you watch it all the time. You strike me as a bit of a Narcissus.

          As for the Mitchell Dam, it will never be, so get over it.

          Just for the record, the SKM Report into Victoria’s water supply options, referred to a 500GL storage on the Mitchell. They estimated a sustainable yield of 85GL per annum. The Desal Plant can produce 150GLper annum.
          The construction of the Mitchell Dam would permanently displace more people that those affected by its floods. It would also spell the end of the Gippsland Lakes, upon which many depend for their livelihood. All the locals are not in favour of the dam.

          The budget price of $1.4 billion, is just that: a budget. Both Sugarloaf and the Thomson Projects grossly exceeded their original budgets. My guess is that the Mitchell if constructed would cost in the order of $4 billion and take around 10 years. It may take another 10 years or more beyond that to fill and become usable.

          And of course, you would be aware that during the Black Saturday fires Melbourne Water were desperately transferring all the water they could out of the Thomson.

          Why???

          You should know fire in a catchment is a threat to water quality. A good downpour after a fire in the catchment, and you have a dam full of ash and non-potable water. That would be the end of half of Melbourne’s water supply for many years. It’s been a long time since a large fire went through the Thomson catchment area, but it will happen again.

          Come that day and as expensive as it is, you’ll be thankful we have the Desal Plant.


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            Water Wizard

            So no new dams and desalinate everything. The Mitchell is just the beginning of all those videos. Shows just how thorough you are… not.

            Well if you pay $2M/day for the Wonthaggi for no water delivered plant, fair enough.

            I do not want to pay. I don’t remember David Downie, John Thwaites, John Brumby or Steve Bracks asking the voters for an opinion. They even said they were not going to build it so they could get re-elected.

            I want certain big water directors, financiers and government employees from DSE in an enquiry answerring a few questions. It may require a few BoM idiots who predicted it would never rain in our dams again there too.

            No. I’m not going to get my nutscracked for free sugarplumfairy but I certainly intend to crack a few elsewhere.


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            Sugarplumfairy

            So no new dams and desalinate everything.

            No. Recycling fron ETP is my preference.

            The Mitchell is just the beginning of all those videos. Shows just how thorough you are… not.

            And those seven minutes I spent watching are now lost forever.

            Well if you pay $2M/day for the Wonthaggi for no water delivered plant, fair enough.

            It’s there and ready to go. Teddy B is the one who said they won’t take any water. But Ted also said six months ago we wouldn’t need the Heli Tankers, so he will probably change his mind.

            I do not want to pay.

            Don’t. And don’t turn your tap on when the plant running.

            I note with interest you don’t dispute anything else I mentioned.

            Good luck on your campaign. But no politician is going to take any notice of someone like you.


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            Water Wizard

            No doubt as this period of low rainfall till April will get Melbourne concerned about dam levels again. We still need that Wonthaggi Enquiry.

            Ted Baillieu may be unelectable if he does nothing about doing a deal with Aquasure. I understand about 25% of the support base in the Nationals has already walked to Bob Katter. If he gets back in it will be as the LNPAP.

            Then there’s the matter of UniSuper owning almost 30% of the desal plant. Smart way to buy the academic vote.

            The supply manager at MW seems to think we have to live with the cost now we are committed. I can’t see him ever being CEO.

            No the best thing is for the government to buy out Aquasure, hold the enquiry and start putting those responsible in prison. It not a good deal but its the only deal.


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    Doubting Rich

    In about 2007 I took Gavin Pretor-Pinney, founder of the Cloud Appreciation Society, for a flight through a cloud to sample the cloud for bacteria to investigate the idea that clouds were seeded by bacteria. He took about 5 r 6 samples in petri dishes out of the aircraft for BBC 4 television.

    I am really not kidding. I was Chief Pilot of a small charter company, and we were hired to take him up. Unfortunately they never send us the promised DVD and I have never seen the programme, so I do not know the result.


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    AndyG55

    For those who like to keep up with water storages.


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    Crakar24

    OT but thought i would mention it

    Germany wants its Gold back from USA, Britain and France, the NY FED said you can have some of it back in 7 years, when Germany asked to see their Gold they were told NO.

    http://www.internationalman.com/global-perspectives/the-disappearing-gold

    The west are currnetly embarking on another crusade to rid the African continent this time Mali of Al Queada (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) the 3 players in this crusade are the USA, Britain and France and what by chance is 80% of Mali’s export………………Gold of course.

    http://www.mbendi.com/indy/ming/gold/af/ml/p0005.htm

    Maybe that Gold wont “disappear” after all.


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    Nice One

    “There is somethign we don’t know, therfore we should do nothing”

    Pretty dumb way to live your life, but then let me ask you, why didn’t this thought apply to the burning of fossil fuels? Why should we know EVERYTHING about burning coal and it’s environmental impact BEFORE going ahead and doing it?

    Your power of limited thought works both ways.


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      Rereke Whakaaro

      And your inability to correctly reference a thread makes you look like an idiot.

      Do you have that empirical evidence yet? Surely it is not that hard to find some real science?


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    Geoff Sherrington

    In the other direction (down) there are several references to bacteria in very deep drill holes. Have not got time to search thoroughly, have read them before, but indications are here. This is at depths down to several km. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Continental_Deep_Drilling_Program and http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=99607&page=1

    While the Erbendorfkörper had not been reached the KTB drilling has been considered a success anyway. For one thing the temperature rose much more quickly than expected which inflicted a reform of the theories about the temperature gradient at very deep drillholes. Other theory changes were required as well – it had been expected that the large mass and tectonic pressures would change the nature of the rock at depth (so called “metamorphite” rock). Quite unexpectedly however the rock layers were not solid at that depth and instead large amounts of fluid and gas were met pouring into the drillhole. Due to the heat and fluids the rock was of a dynamic nature which changes the way that the next superdeep drilling would be planned.

    The first experiment, the “Dipol-Dipol-Experiment” was about measuring the electric conductibility around the drill hole. This showed lines of graphite spanning through the rock that would also allow the rocks to glide when pressures moves them. The second experiment was to put a high pressure into the drillhole such that the rock would start cracking, the “Integriertes Hydrafrac/Seismik Experiment”. The resulting seismic activity was measured at multiple stations in the larger area – the result had been that the overall pressure came from the south, actually the African tectonic plate at work. The third experiment, the “Fluid/Hydraulik-Test” was pumping large amounts of fluid into the rock which showed it to be porously in general.[2]


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