JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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The Thompsons fight on from the USA: a business ruined by green-tape and the Australian Carbon Tax

This is one of the star case-studies of the noxious cost of big-government. A pernicious soul-destroying wrecker of livelihoods. This tyranny in action.

Matt and Janet are skeptics who ran a Beef Feedlot from Narrogin, Western Australia (2 hours SE of Perth). When they spoke out against climate change policies, onerous license changes were added that drove them to bankruptcy. Readers here and at Watts Up raised over $30,000 dollars as they faced eviction in Sept 2010. (It was the first time skeptics around the world had been asked to help a cause like this, and the response was so overwhelming that Paypal still can’t list all the donations we received on Sept 18th, 2010. It breaks their site).

The Thompsons write today with an update: they’ve decided it’s unfeasible to try to run their business under these conditions and with the new carbon tax in Australia, and due to family reasons they’ve reluctantly left Australia, moved back to the USA with their four children (bad for Australia, but good for Uncle Sam). They’ve reached a settlement with the bank but fully intend to pursue their legal case against the Department of Environment in West Australia. I’m delighted to say that Matt and Janet’s indomitable spirits survived these last two years, which pushed them to the brink and they are looking forward with great hope.

Their story in brief – a story I initially couldn’t believe would happen in Australia

This all sounds so unlikely: surely good honest businesses couldn’t go broke in a first world country because their owners spoke their minds? I’ve documented every statement below on this site. No one could run a business under these conditions.

Matt and Janet moved from Texas to Australia to set up a new feedlot farm. Their business was so successful in early 2007 they were turning away customers. After Matt  spoke out as a climate skeptic at a greenhouse gas reporting meeting in May 2007 the DEC  changed their farming license adding 33 new conditions, one or two which were so impossible, that no bank would loan against them. They had already signed contracts based on the previous license, and the newly reduced head-count drove them to the verge of bankruptcy. DEC even admits it broke it’s own rules. Apparently the Thompsons beef-feedlot didn’t smell right, even though Matt and Janet did everything the department suggested (and more), their closest neighbours wrote letters of support (wanting the farm to grow), 900 townfolk signed a petition for them, 6000 odour tests showed there was no problem, and wait for it, their farm was right next to a piggery which had run for 28 years. But 21 verified complaints from people who wanted to subdivide land and a number of other unchecked, not publicly listed, complaints about odours that can’t be measured were enough to close them down. And you thought Rule of Law applied in Australia? Not so, if you don’t butter up, pander, bow and obey the politically correct dictums set by unelected bureaucrats and the covert green-police, you too could be subject to random arbitrary license changes that insist your business must not offend anyone anywhere (and especially not your Green land-developing neighbours).

Donations for the Thompsons children helped to keep the family in their home for another 18 months, and put them in a much stronger position to fight the ongoing legal case. A large part went towards their move to the US, and the last part was sent a month or so ago to help set them up.

From Matt and Janet:

Dear Readers of WUWT and Jo Nova,

We would like to give an update to all of you who have supported us in a variety of ways, including with donations (in-kind and monetary) for our children, writing letters, and contacting politicians and our bank.

For a refresher on the background to our story, please see the original YouTube we produced, including the important second one, Part 1  Part 2:  [And/or Anthony and Jo, whatever links to your own blogs on this issue]

We returned to the USA for Christmas in 2011 on frequent flyer tickets given to us by family. Matt’s dad had been having health problems, and had had a major surgery in July. After seeing our parents again, we were moved to reconsider our living situation; namely the fact that since our business was not operating, we could no longer afford to fly our family back to the States should something sudden arise. (Matt’s dad had another surgery in February, and we were thankful to be here for that.)

In addition to the desire to be within driving proximity to our families, we had become acutely concerned over the deterioration in political, legislative and regulatory circumstances in Australia. We worried that even if we were to win our case against the Department of Environment and Conservation (DEC) (a case that is still in progress), the passage of the Carbon (sic) Tax in 2010 made the possibility of ever operating our feedlot again impossible. It meant that even if we won in court, most of our efforts to profitably operate our business would have gone towards convincing some bureaucrat that we weren’t causing greenhouse gas emissions, when in fact we were. Productive people do.

Finally, while in the US, Matt was offered a job in Texas, and we felt, all things taken together, we should make the heart-wrenching decision to move our family to America. This was not a decision taken lightly. We had lived in Australia for 10 years. Three of our four children had been born in Narrogin, and the first had been only 11 months old when we moved down under. We have many close, stalwart friends, and our lives in Western Australia, despite the obvious problems, had been happy and rich.

After fighting through the court system on three fronts (bank, receivers, and DEC) since mid-2010 to save our business and attempt to pay back our unsecured creditors (who have been unbelievably kind to us throughout the ordeal), we came to an agreement with the NAB and Ferrier Hodgson (the bank-appointed receivers) last month. The details of the agreement are confidential, but we feel that concentrating our legal efforts on the DEC (bringing it down to a one-front war, if you will) is the most prudent thing for us to do.

So our property has been handed over to the bank and receivers.

Very importantly, we continue to pursue the case against the out-of-control, bureaucratic and inept DEC, still hoping to pay back our unsecured creditors. Still hoping that our story will make a difference to society. Still hoping for some semblance of justice for ourselves after losing our lives savings and thriving business due entirely to a government agency’s edict, after being told by that same entity in the beginning that we could proceed.

Our children were devastated when we broke the news to them in late January that we were not to return to Australia. Matt and I have both struggled with the fact that we were not able to say good-bye to our close friends, and we have been missing them and our life in Narrogin. Adding to the pain, the subtle nuances of our legal situation required us to quietly pursue our course without communicating publicly to the people who directly contributed to keep a roof over the heads of and food on the table for our children. Had it not been for your faithful generosity, our situation would have been impossible.

While that silence was difficult, it was necessary. Walking the fine line of dealing directly with our treacherous situation and communicating openly and often has been tough. We hope you understand. From our direct communications with many of you, we are certain you do. From the bottom of our hearts, thank you.

On the broader front of the hoax of climate change, we are very proud that we spoke out strongly and publicly — and early on — against the attack on productivity and productive people. We know that it cost us our business, our entire lives savings, and the life of one of our closest friends.

We continue to be concerned in the extreme about the situation and the fundamental factors that led to the birth and unobstructed growth of such an insidious and damaging monster. We continue to be involved with grassroots actions, hoping to make a difference. We believe our four children and their generation deserve better than to inherit the current financial and political mess. These concerns and our actions affect our ability to produce real goods and services as we would like to, but we will survive and do what we must while doing what we can.

Thank you again for your warmth, support, understanding, and patience. Please don’t hesitate to contact us through Jo or Anthony (with “The Thompsons” in the Subject line) if you feel moved to do so. Thanks again and again.

Janet and Matt

 

The bottom line:

1. Free speech is very much under threat in Australia.

2 .This all would have been so different if the media had done it’s job. Should you ever be unlucky enough to be the small guy standing up to the establishment, don’t expect your tax dollars paid to the ABC will help you highlight the injustice and expose the corruption. It’s their ABC after all. And where is that supposed bastion of news: The West Australian?  They don’t seem to be in a hurry to let the citizens of Western Australia know how their Department of Environment play kingmakers either.

Thanks to Anthony Watts for his influential help on Watts Up.

He has just posted an update also.
UPDATED: My comment there (edited):

There is an anti-American element in Australia, not from ordinary Australians but from the green intellectuals, who were the activists against the Thompsons. You can bet that if they were Afghan immigrant farmers they would not have been singled out, and the media would not have ignored them. The combination of skeptic, american, beef feedlot, and free enterprise was a red flag …

What happened was abysmal. We lost upstanding citizens, entrepreneurial business acumen, four promising kids, and two excellent parents.

Most Australians would be appalled but they have not even heard of the Thompsons.

We wish them every success and will follow their progress closely.

I’m so proud of them for fighting on, and not letting the sods get them down.

* * *

My many posts on The Thompsons starting in July 2010 – now

 

VN:F [1.9.22_1171]
Rating: 8.7/10 (72 votes cast)
The Thompsons fight on from the USA: a business ruined by green-tape and the Australian Carbon Tax, 8.7 out of 10 based on 72 ratings

Tiny Url for this post: http://tinyurl.com/7u5wsqe

262 comments to The Thompsons fight on from the USA: a business ruined by green-tape and the Australian Carbon Tax

  • #
    Matt Bennett

    Those poor, poor children…. Being bought up in such a warped bubble of misinformation. Don’t get me wrong, as a business owner I certainly support an absolute minimal of interference from government’s sticky fingers and unnecessary over-regulation as far as is possible. But to call, for convenience sake, (because it doesn’t suit your business) the rock solid science behind global warming ‘a hoax’ just because you don’t understand it is ludicrous. Really, really poor form, no matter how much public support you think you have behind you. I’d say there’s a lot more to this story than meets the eye – pity it’s all confidential.

    ——————

    Darn. In the rescue mission to get back 100000 lost comments we lost the thumbs down on this post which set a record tally -201 Thumbs down. — Jo


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      Ian Hill

      Yes it did Jo, 201 in fact last time I looked a few days ago.

      All nested replies now appear as their own single reply way down the thread.


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      Vince Whirlwind

      Exactly what I was thinking – it will have proven to have been so traumatising for them to have been uprooted from their lives because their parents decided to go off on some misinformed ideological crusade instead of concentrating on earning a living, the worst of it being exposed to people who blame their failure on everybody but themselves.


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  • #

    I suggest the Thompsons get in touch with Gordon hall and get some legal guidance on how to recover all their money plus damages. holding the Dec and/or individuals personally liable is very possible but not using traditional court methods since the deck is stacked against you when entering court.

    legal remedy its available to everyone, and many are waking up to how law can be used correctly. check out talkshoe.com and find contracts in motion. Gordon runs a weekly call with real cases, amazing stuff.


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  • #
    Jaymez

    So glad to hear some news. So sad to hear Australia has lost such a wonderful and enterprising family. You have touched a lot of people, not just with your personal story, but also with your amazing contribution to our society in so many areas. The whole family should be proud of your legacy.

    I will look forward to any news regarding the case against DEC and will continue to take any opportunity to raise questions about DEC’s role in Western Australia.

    I wish you and you family well and the success you so richly deserve.

    Perhaps when this madness of the Carbon Tax, Clean Energy fund and various other disasters this current Government is visiting upon us has been removed, Jo can organise a reunion celebration.


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    warcroft

    Sounds like they need to be hit with a $1.1 million fine for blaming the carbon tax. That will teach them for speaking their mind!


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    Cate S

    Those poor, poor children…. Being bought up in such a warped bubble of misinformation.” Matt Bennett #1 in your god damn dreams buddy in the context you wrote it.
    However “Those poor, poor children…. Being bought up in such a warped bubble of misinformation.” yep, deliberatly deceitful people have impacted on those childrens lives, and the ability of their loving, caring protective parents to protect them from human beings need to be all knowing and powerful, crushing people like the Thompson’s financially, emotionally, and physically like their employees too…rip..
    Janet and Matt – you know you are loved and cared for by many many people – you give strength to others in your leadership, and by your example.
    Another step for us all to stand together – Thanks Jo for the update


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    Dallas Beaufort

    Green and red tape have destroyed many Australians over the past 20 years. The big question still remains, will Conservative State Governments and their councils who were relected on the back of the communities disgust with Green Labor’s fraudulent policies recognise this corruption and repair trust or just go on with the same take.


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  • #
    Leslie

    Well I am another farmer ( a Biodynamic one at that) ruined by the corrupt Australian Government and Big Business who have sold the soul of Australia to the worse on this planet, who control Monsanto, who own the Carbon Tax & who have orchestrated the collapse of the financial systems worldwide to name a few.

    I know for a fact I am, as the Thompsons are, one of 1000′s of farmers taken out,in Australia alone, through treacherous means with no due process , through a court system which is also in the pockets of the ones doing all of this.

    Funny I owed not a penny to anyone, not a bank no one. Yet due to also being quite vocal about a few issues one in regards to Monsanto and the truth about the Carbon lie, was attacked also on three fronts at once.

    I went to court after they decided to try to take everything, my property my livlehood and charge me for being a farmer on drought relief, which I was entitled too, seeing we were in drought for 10 years , although I only received the bare minimum of help for two years.

    Well they got tired of due process, so they just went for the juggler. Whilst I am still in process in court they removed my name from the title of my land put it on the market & sold it, way below market value. Without my knowledge.

    Then gave me 1 hour to leave after invading my home with 15 agents, who destroyed my business, stole my passport took my bank cards and left me with not a penny.

    They then took me to a Kangaroo Court where I was not entitled to a lawyer, judge refused evidence, and then threw me in jail for 6 month.
    Refused my right of appeal and still no justice.

    The whole system is corrupt to its core & I now know who is really behind it. With the stupid minions who carry out these dastardly deeds totally unaware that it will be them next.

    This is happening on a frightening scale in this country and worldwide. Quietly one my one taken out, no media , no so called recourse as the system and those in it are all corrupted.

    I have been in the Organic Industry since its inception in this country 50 years ago.
    I do know what is going on, I do know that all true environmental work has been taken over by these people with the government aiding and profiteering from it.
    They will stop at nothing, to take all and destroy all in its path. Even to the point of murder.

    For those who have been duped by the system and believe their lies, I ask that you really have a closer look to see the truth, for do not believe you are immune from it you are not.

    I give my sympathy and understanding to the Thompsons & those who have all been put through something similar. That goes out to millions of innocent people on this planet.

    —————————————————
    Leslie, as I have said to others – information is our friend -- I can’t help everyone, but you can do a lot yourself to make it easier for commentators to cover your story. WordPress.com and others offer free sites. Commentators don’t need fancy writing or long stories, (we need the opposite – the short brutal facts) but what is really valuable are photos (farms, documents, people). The better organised your documentation, the easier it is for people to draw attention to the story. Figure that any commentator needs enough documents to know the story is credible. The faster you can get information from screen to person the better (ie make it methodical, organized, concise) — Jo


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    Matt Bennett

    Jo,

    “The details of the agreement are confidential, but we feel that concentrating our legal efforts on the DEC….” so yes, much of the case IS confidential.

    Your ‘public support’ comment makes no sense to me whatsoever? I wasn’t talking about science, I was referring to the amount of letters, emails, financial and moral support the Thompsons have apparently received and how that doesn’t make their position any more tenable.

    And no, I’m not having a cheap shot via the kids (thanks for your ridiculous pot shot MadJak, as if you can EVER know my thoughts or motives), I deal with kids all the time as part of my business and their wellbeing is always at the forefront of my mind. It reminds me of those terribly ill-served children you see being ‘home-schooled’ in US bible belt states that have no chance of contact with the realities of the scientific method and therefore grow up schooled in the erroneous beliefs of their parents. Despite all the nonsense that flies around on sites like this, global warming, caused by our fossil fuel emissions, is a major reality to be dealt with largely during the lifetimes of these children. I does make it hard when they start out on the wrong foot.


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    dave shorter

    Well Matt Bennett,if it is caused by ‘our fossil fuel emissions’ then it isn’t caused by grass powered cow farts is it?


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    Mike Fomerly of Oz

    Bennett:

    It reminds me of those terribly ill-served children you see being ‘home-schooled’ in US bible belt states that have no chance of contact with the realities of the scientific method

    You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. If you think it’s home schooling that keeps kids from being exposed to the scientific method, think again. Most public education here in the U.S. is garbage. Don’t believe me? Look at the international competitiveness of U.S. students, particularly in science and math. Then look at the amount of money spent per pupil. Public education in the U.S. may be bad, but gee, it sure is expensive.

    What I will say is that you’ve been well-indoctrinated about the “US bible belt”. If you actually took the time to find out the facts rather than outsourcing your thinking to feeble-minded bigots, you would see that your opinion of people who “rage against the machine” by refusing to have their children indoctrinated with the kind of politically-correct claptrap that many teachers push is a cartoonish and preposterous point of view that betrays a distinct lack of analytical ability and a prejudice of which a “scientific” person with the slightest amount of self-awareness would be ashamed. One need look no further than your “rock solid science” statement to get a feel for the quality of your scientific thinking.

    Other than that, good post, except for your obvious “projection” about the kids being brought up in a bubble of misinformation, and your clear misapprehension of the facts of the matter. Nice work, champ!


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    Dave

    .
    You say this Mr. Matt Bennett:

    therefore grow up schooled in the erroneous beliefs of their parents

    All parents are erroneous in your belief! Amazing statement!

    .
    Let’s look at a personnel attack on you –

    Matt Bennett buys the Beef Feedlot at Narrogin cheaply from the banks and starts up a CATTLE CREDIT Feedlot.

    The more cattle you don’t feed – the more money you earn?
    The Thompsons tried to feed more cattle and got paid less!

    MORAL: Do nothing and earn money in this new GREEN society – Try to do something and be penalised?

    Sounds like a windmill arguement to me Mr. Matt Bennett!

    What message does this send to your own children??? :(

    Is this really about odour and methane Mr. Matt Bennett???


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    linda

    Great to get an update on Matt and Janet, i think Peter SPENCER case was also in NSW court today no follow up as yet.

    Many are belatetly taking note of who is behind buying up farms and for what purpose, much the same as urban rural land and it has nothing to do with the environment.

    Also noted from United Nations , they now want to include a clause to include PROPERTY RIGHTS, or land rights at the rio summit.

    http://insights.wri.org/news/2012/05/why-land-rights-should-be-rio20-agenda


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  • #
    Sonny

    I know exactly how people feel who voice their sceptisim in the public domain seeking to have an honest debate but instead are being viciously attacked in the name of “children” or “future generations”.

    These are some comments I received on Facebook just yesterday by people who should know better.

    “If only climate change deniers had their own planet they were free to stuff up and leave the rest of us to fix this one”
    Joel Zyngier, lawyer who actred pro bono against Andrew Bolt and lists one of his areas as “environmental justice”

    “It personally infuriates me that people like [Sonny] go around spreading misinformation and attacking good science. It’s my future and the future of my
    Family and friends he is helping to stuff up. We should all take it personally that fossil fuel funded messaging is helping delay action on climate which worsens the consequences for all of us.”
    Pablo Brait, Beyond Zero Emissions.

    It is so obvious how individuals with financial, career or ideological bias towards environmentalist alarmism depend on these kinds of superficial emotional appeals.
    The data is against them. All they have is propoganda.

    Thankfully out children and out childrens children will not suffer global warming and nor will they have to suffer all the alarmist bullshit that comes along with it.

    Pablo Brait, Beyond Zero Emissions


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    Dave

    .
    linda,

    Been checking land purchases in QLD and also stock movements – huge amount going on – will try to get details of the high profile parasites (mainly Greens & CAGW fanatics) on this con trick.

    10,000 head moved to one property (only small) in NQ that never had stock prior – stands to gain $420,000 in Cattle (methane) credits if they claim July 1st!!

    It’s criminal – the ACCC is too busy investigating the corner store for raising the price of a block of cheese by 8 cents!!!

    And Mr. Matt Bennett feels sorry for the children!!! GRRRRRRR!!!


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    Tim

    I believe that the Thompson’s case goes a lot deeper than Australia’s Department of Environment and Conservation. Have a Google look at the US: National Cattlemen’s Beef Association – (search: NCBA Op-Ed: Cattlemen defining sustainability.)

    They are fighting the good fight to protect their industry from ‘Sustainability’. They say: “…we risk facing unrealistic sustainability standards.”

    Sustainable is a very treacherous word and refers to Agenda 21; creating a pristine world and removing contaminants – such as cow dung. The ‘Sustainability’ term is an invention of one world government. (To create a pristine world you would move pollutants – like cow dung – to other countries that have low pollution, like Africa.)

    The United Nations Conference on Human Settlements (HABITAT 1) was held in Vancouver, British Columbia in 1976 and establishes the United Nations Policy on private property rights. It produced a document that became the blueprint for comprehensive land use planning. The preamble to the report declared that:

    “Land…cannot be treated as an ordinary asset, controlled by individuals and subject to the pressures and inefficiencies of the market. Private land ownership is also a principal instrument of accumulation and concentration of wealth and therefore contributes to social injustice….Public control of land use is therefore indispensable….”

    Just a WA issue?


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  • #

    Great GDP and jobs figures this week, eh? Result of a lot of hard work by Swan. We are well placed for the Carbon Price that comes in the first of next month—and that by itself will boost activity and jobs as the compensation gets spent,as the tax free threshold gets tripled to $18K and so on.

    Nice big solar power generation facility going up in NSW, first of many, helping drop electricity prices, creating jobs and so on.

    Instead of stuffing around with silly conspiracy theories why not enjoy all these good things?


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    Dallas Beaufort

    Maxine

    “Nice big solar power generation facility going up in NSW, first of many, helping drop electricity prices, creating jobs and so on”.

    Where is the help coming from to drop electricity prices?


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    unhappy constituent

    I just don’t know what is happening in Australia these last few years, one night I went to sleep in a state called Queensland and woke up in one called Nanny. Fortunately we got rid of Anna’s Hard Labor and now we seemingly have a few state pollies who are prepared to question CAGW publicly, so at least we might be on our way back, I just hope it’s not too late. Also o/t but did you see the two Olympic Swimmers who can’t be pictured with guns, this beautiful, wonderful Country, which i love with all my heart, is dying from inept and simply bloody stupid Politicians who are happy to exploit the politics of envy and hate for their own selfish reasons I just hope we can get back to where we should be before we reach the majestic heights of Greece or Spain.


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    Ross

    My very best wishes to the Thompsons for their future.

    I just hope the gutless banks take a real bath on this.

    I’m absolutely amazed by the comments on the upcoming cattle rort when the carbon tax comes in. How come this is not making major headlines in the MSM?

    It makes you wonder if the rort that took place in the EU when their ETS was introduced will happen in Australia. What happened there was in the years before the system started many companies inflated their reported emmissions figures above what was actually happening so they got given “extra” credits for the introductory period. So when the system started they flogged off the credits they did not need and started reporting actual emmissions –they made a huge profit and looked like great corporate citizens for reducing their emmission so well.
    I understand there has been a similar voluntary reporting system operating in Austraia for the last few years. Watch this space !!!


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    Ferdinand

    The great global warming hoax as it is now called is riddled with sinister elements mainly political.Supporters of AGW rely solely on computer models as there has never been any research that has directly linked dangerous global warming with cO2. Where you are not responsible for earning your income but benefit solely from state activities it ill behoves you to question what the state proclaims. Only private people can live the truth – and suffer the truth. As a Britisher I am ashamed of Julia Gillard who left these lands to torment Australia.


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    val majkus

    This is indeed a tragic story and through it all the family have remained outwardly at least courageous and good humoured for which I applaud them.

    The DEC have behaved deplorably. I urge readers to read Jo’s post at http://joannenova.com.au/2010/09/thompsons-part-10-the-dec-admits-it-treated-them-unfairly/
    and particularly the minutes of December 2009 which Jo has linked there

    Jo also has in that post a statement from the relevant Minister

    DF: There is a clear process that is gone through in these situations. Letters are sent out advising of the problem and providing a time frame for correction. Then an Environmental Field Notice is issued and the proponent is given time to comply. Then and Environmental Protection Notice is issued, and the proponent is given time to deal with that. Only after that exhaustive process, would an operation be shut down…or limited in throughput which would lead to it shutting down. We have had the same situation with waste treatment facilities. This is standard procedure. The Department is not interested in shutting the operation down.

    The DEC never followed that procedure in this case. As a result the Thompsons lost their considerable input capital, I suspect they incurred considerable debts and they lost their livelihood. When you’re in that situation it’s very difficult to get sustained legal assistance of the type that’s needed.

    Pro productivity – what’s it mean?


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    grayman

    Australia loss is our gain. Here in the US and Texas we welcome them home.


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    val majkus

    This is what Mitt Romney has to say about the ever extending reach of the arm of Government:

    Today, government at all levels consumes 37 percent of the total economy or G.D.P. If Obamacare is allowed to stand, government will reach half of the American economy. And through the increasing controls government has imposed on industries like energy, financial services and automobiles, it will soon effectively control the majority of our economic activity.

    One must ask whether we will still be a free enterprise nation and whether we will still have economic freedom. America is on the cusp of having a government-run economy. President Obama is transforming America into something very different than the land of the free and the land of opportunity.

    We know where that transformation leads. There are other nations that have chosen that path. It leads to chronic high unemployment, crushing debt, and stagnant wages.

    read more at http://catallaxyfiles.com/2012/06/08/the-liberating-power-of-the-free-enterprise-system/


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  • #

    Why glorify people like Matt Bennett with a reply to his stupidy ??


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    Skitz

    It’s the UN’s plan to remove private ownership of land from the populace. Personally, I wait for the day when all those rotten filthy politicians hang from that 6 million dollar flag pole at parliament house. If karma exists, then I can’t wait until the bastards get theirs.


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  • #

    Slightly off-topic, but picking up on Tim’s comment above:

    “Sustainable is a very treacherous word and refers to Agenda 21; creating a pristine world and removing contaminants – such as cow dung. The ‘Sustainability’ term is an invention of one world government.”

    I think we need some sort of support group or Watch Site for areas of expertise that are in danger of attack from AGWers. I’m willing to help.

    1. AGW re-badged as “Climate Change”.
    Sneaky. As if any of us actually involved thinks that climate is static?
    2. Next – re-badging “Extreme Weather”.
    We have the likes of Matthew England cracking on as if he has just discovered it, when many of us have been working on building resilience to extreme events for decades, events that have happened in the past and will happen in the future.
    3. Next – re-badging to “Sustainability”.

    Ok – the point about Agenda 21 is valid. With the benefit of hindsight, this was a lot more insidious than it appeared to be.

    So far, I have been unable to find a replacement term when (not if) sustainability becomes a dirty word.

    What is next on the hit-list?

    I notice the effect of all this muddying of the waters in my relatively humble daily work, designing buildings that suit people’s needs, are adaptable to change over time, but not cost-prohibitive at the outset.
    I often say things like “ok the C2 wind speed classification is a bit marginal, but the difference amounts to perhaps $xxx in extra plates, cyclone rods are less than $xx each…”
    ” … minimum floor level might be +450 AHD, but going to +750 AHD is only $xx on the length of the posts, two more steps…”

    Thing is – clients are showing a tendency to “switch off” because of this barrage of alarmism. They know they can’t meet the (apparent) demands, so they feel that there is no point bothering.

    Regards


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    Bulldust

    I am sorry to hear that the Thompsons have left Australia. Unfortunately the bureaucracy moves excruciatingly slowly , and business destronyingly, when it seeks to. Intransience of the regulators will beat enterprising business people most times and it is a loss to the economy as a whole. I, like many others here, look forward to positive (hopefully) updates from the court actions, but I imagine that will also move at a glacial pace.

    Good luck to all y’all back in the USA. Hopefully you can keep the carbon cowboys at bay there.


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    Bulldust

    Slightly off topic but somewhat on topic, it seems Greenpeace GetUp and a few others also want to stifle business in Australia by running negative advertising campaigns against Australian investments:

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/wayne-swan-slams-greenpeace-advertisement-about-coal-ships-on-great-barrier-reef/story-fn59niix-1226389109780

    To his credit, even Swannie thought this was a step too far. I suspect that Labor is gradually trying to distance itself from the Greens now that an election is fast approaching.


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    memoryvault

    .
    The Thompsons have suffered terribly at the hands of the eco-fascists who control the WA bureaucracy.
    Now for a bite of the bitter pill.

    This all started when the DEC cut the Thompson’s carrying quota from 10,000 to 6,000 at the beginning of 2008.
    Colin Barnett’s LIBERAL government was elected in September 2008, and has been in power ever since.
    In other words, to all intent and purpose, this disgusting affair mostly happened under a LIBERAL government.

    I just thought I’d point that out for those starry-eyed folk who continue to think things are going to change very much after the next federal election.

    And just in case anybody thinks it’s an outlier: in the last two weeks a senior minister in the Victorian LIBERAL government, a senior minister in the NSW LIBERAL government, and a senior minister in the QLD LNP government, have all confirmed their unswerving belief in Mann-Made Global Warming.

    Let us not forget that, unlike JuLIAR and the Greens, the federal LIBS will be given an overwhelming mandate to introduce THEIR “climate change” policies, which are just as ill-conceived and spendthrift as Labor’s, and based on the same cultist pseudo-religious, unscientific beliefs.

    Meanwhile, the eco-fascists will be left firmly in control of our bureaucracies, including the CSIRO, the BoM, the ABC, and our education system, JUST like they have in the states.


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    Wendy

    Jo, thank you for the update on the Thompsons.

    Matt and Janet, I am so sorry that you’ve had to leave Australia. Keep fighting as we are behind you 100%.

    Wendy & Kneel


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    Graham Richards

    Just in case anyone out there thinks Clive Palmer is a nutter because of his CIA conspiracy theories you had better think again. US interference is a problem through out the world!!
    The CIA recently interfered with a UK company, with the full knowledge of a British council, and bankrupted them.
    Saw this report on website of Daily Mail UK


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    Dallas Beaufort

    Memoryvault, yes, the so called conservatives are in power and there has been no change to Green Labor’s polices or their Liberals for trees policies which denigrate private enterprises loses to improve productivity , So therefore the ignorance within the so called elected representatives lives on in the knowledge that a large downturn is inevitable and these fools will only take notice once they have no options left but to listen to those who create something tangible of value.


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    linda

    Prior to 2008 election WA Liberals released a draft policy on property rights, maybe NOW would be a good time to justify the use of tax payers funds on the 7 reports over many years, and with the latest news from farm weekly, and the court case of Peter Spencer updates on JUST GROUNDS site .
    47% off national revenue is from private property, so where is the voice for property owners.
    http://fw.farmonline.com.au/news/state/agribusiness-and-general/general/pga-calls-for-environmental-law-review/2583569.aspx


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    val majkus

    Jo it would be great if the Thompsons kept in touch sometimes – maybe ‘letter from Texas’ once or twice a year
    I’d love to get updates on their new life and I’m sure many others would as well


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    MadJak

    Meanwhile,

    Union Members in NSW paid $350,000 to bail out an MP accused of spending almost half a million dollars of Health Services union funds on prostitutes and getting himself re-elected.

    I count my lucky stars that no one has ever bullied me into paying Union fees.

    I genuinely feel sorry for members of unions with this sort of thing being done with their hard earnt cash.


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    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=thinning-arctic-ice-allows-plankton-bloom&page=2

    “Decades ago, there would have been thick multiyear ice in this area, maybe 3 meters thick — 9 to 10 feet,” Arrigo said. “No way there would have been sunlight getting through ice that thick to have a bloom like this.”

    But these days, the portion of the Chukchi Sea the scientists studied is covered with 3-foot-thick “first year” sea ice that forms in the fall and melts in the spring.

    And that light, combined with nutrient-rich waters under the ice, is a recipe for a phytoplankton explosion.

    “The amount of phytoplankton in this bloom — top to bottom — is more than has ever been seen in any bloom anywhere in the world, in open water,” said Arrigo, who has studied phytoplankton for 25 years.

    He compared the plankton-filled water to “pea soup.” The dense blooms, more than 150 feet deep in places, extended from the ice edge more than 70 miles into the interior of the ice pack.

    Of course, spring arrives earlier in Arctic (and in the UK and no doubt everywhere else) so a lot migratory species miss out on this bounty.

    So, please, no more nonsense about arctic ice not thinning.


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    Fitzcarraldo

    Jo the main story is that the Gergis paper has been withdrawn/on hold CA jean S discovereed a major fault


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    Mark

    That gurgling sound you just heard is the sound of Gergis et al swirling down the dunny.

    http://climateaudit.org/2012/06/08/gergis-et-al-put-on-hold/

    Another “hockey stick” bites the ****.


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    Dallas Beaufort

    Maxine, If you continue to deliver this rubbish to support the public services demand to control with more funding money coming from this man made global warning CO2 tax scam, your position and that of the lefts in the public service is unsustainable. Your numbers will be cut until you and your fellows in fiction get the message, the public have woken up to the bullshit. See NSW Governments latest 10,000 public servants to get axing to get the picture Maxine.


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    Peter Miller

    It sometimes must be nice to be a pro-CAGW blog, where all unfavourable comments to the Cause are automatically censored out.

    In this blog, all too often there is some smug naive youngster or self-opinionated old fart spouting one, two, or three line comments and thinking themselves very clever.

    Jo, can I suggest you don’t censor these largely pointless comments, but put them somewhere below in a section entitled: “For smug naive youngsters and self-opinionated old farts only”.

    [And where would you put the self-opinionated old farts who just happen to be moderators?] Fly


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    Pat

    Maxinie, really, I think you should stop digging now, the hole is deep enough. You have proven, beyond doubt, that you know nothing about what you talk about and yet still claim to have a B.Sc. That’s a laugh right off the bat!

    I think you need to look up the term for used for the effect heat has on gases. Then look up atmospheric scintillation (AS). You will see that for there to be an increase in AS there has to be an effect on gases. The term used to decribe how heat effects gases is called MOTION. So for the AGW THEORY to be true there would have to be an EFFECT. More heat = more motion = more motion = more AS. If this were the case then ALL ground based optical devices would need to be adjusted to compensate for this increased AS. This is NOT happening. Therefore, no ajustments = no change in AS = no increase in heat. The AGW theory fails right there. And lets not talk about IR astromony, you will fail to understand that too. Ad can you tell me, where is Trenberths missing heat? Should have popped up now…according to the models at least.


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    handjive

    Maxine
    June 9, 2012 , Quote:

    * “That feedback might have been good but with methane roaring out of melting clathrates way too little: the Arctic ice is still melting afterall.”

    * “The globe is warming, the melting methane clathrates in the Arctic are going to accelerate it.”

    * (etc)

    Unlike our highly informed and, obviously superiorly intelligent climate scientist Maxine, Bsc, this peon has only google:

    February 24, 2006-
    The “hydrate hypothesis” (if validated) spells the rapid onset of runaway catastrophic global warming.

    By the way, the “hydrate hypothesis” is a weeks old scientific theory, and is only now being discussed by global warming scientists. I suggest you Google the term.

    Forgive this lowly peon for asking, but can Maxine provide the evidence that has ‘validated’ this ‘weeks old’ hypothesis to a point where Maxine ‘knows‘ this ‘one trick’ spells the ‘doom of mankind’?

    Here is a hint: Explain the PETM.

    Turn all those ‘thumbs down’ around!


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    ExWarmist

    Hi Jo,

    OT: My posts (and possibly others) are inheriting the up arrow values from the post that sits directly above them. Looks like a bug in the site code.

    (There I was, wondering why people were able to like my posts so quickly…)

    I would also check the code around the down arrow as well.


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    Jo, thanks again and again for your site and your tireless work to advance truth. We appreciate you documenting everything about our story for all the world to see…if only they choose to.

    I learned this last week that the EPA here in the USA is using drones to “inspect” ranch land for enforcement purposes. Incredible, eh, that they are spending resources keeping an eye on “criminals” who produce and pay tax. 1984. 1984. 1984.

    God help us all when the consequences of all this idiocy come home to roost. People will go hungry in large numbers. I just don’t see any way around it.


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    JimBrock

    I hate to comment when I don’t have all the information, but a cattle feed lot can generate overwhelming, nauseating stink. Used to be (haven’t driven through El Paso in years) that if the wind was from the right direction, driving west out of El Paso was right in the path of the stink from a cattle feeding operation. Man! I mean STINK! So perhaps the neighbors had a legitimate complaint.

    OTOH, I am sorry to see the Thompsons lose all that investment, in time,effort and money.


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    In the mean time, we will focus on raising children who know how to produce so that when the time comes, they will be able to do their part in rebuilding. Just like each of your stalwart readers does and will do.

    All our warmest regards,
    Janet and Family


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    Michael

    Strange that the Thompsons think that the US is safe from governmental malice and terrible red tape- its worse more laws and regulations than anyone could possibly follow- they keep adding without taking away. The US is on track to not have any legal small business. Currently being trashed is the last bastion of independant taxi drivers- Washington DC with million dollar badges being required to be bought.


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    Sounds fishy

    Well what an opportunity. So how does a carbon tax that doesn’t impact agricultural emissions affect the Thompsons?

    And if Matt spoke out at some rally – why is there necessarily a connection between that and their run-in with DEC?
    If he got a flat tyre on the way home would that have also been “proof”. What bulldust. It’s just a pile of excuses as the community that didn’t want a stinking feedlot. And they stink to high heaven.

    Sounds like Nova pumpin’ up the volume to me.

    —————-
    Mr Fish, read the links – Matt has the email records pre May 2007 and post May 2007. DEC took a special interest in the Thompsons from that point. Sure, correlation is not causation. 6000 odor tests from Narrogin prove the feedlot could barely be detected in the town most days of the month. Sounds like an anonymous troll, astroturf anyone? — Jo


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    Sounds fishy

    Call me Stinky like dead fish. Jo – it’s very simple – this is just grandstanding. So the Thompsons had a major run in with a govt dept – gee like that never happens.
    And bastards being bastards (DEC and govt in general) probably dig in if you touch them up.

    So how does a carbon tax, not to be on agricultural emissions, and not yet implemented affect them? – no answer

    Would proof do you have apart from spruiking that Matt’s opinions on AGW have anything to do with DEC’s actions. no answer – as you say “correlation does not equal causation” – you can’t selectively use this line on AGW matters and waive it here (well you can but that wouldn’t be consistent)

    Sounds to me like the locals (and you’d probably have to have grannie in the cemetery to be a local in these places) didn’t like stinky business. “Barely detected on most days of the month”. What apart from the days that did stink?

    Sounds like yanks go home and supported by the locals (who wouldn’t tell you to your face), and leaning on DEC to me.

    It’s emotional – who can be objective when they’re your mates – a difference of opinion = “you’re a troll”. Fair enough.


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    Sam Geoghegan

    Never really liked how you latched onto this story to buttress your own viewpopint. It isn’t, in my opinion, quality journalism to emotionally laden your objectives by appealing to people’s misfortunes. My imperceptive critics will no doubt utilise the argumentum ad misericordiam against me, or your ridiculous ratings system will dispense with my comment but it’s one of the reasons why I go somewhere like Climate Audit for balanced information. The polemicists just pick up scraps and spin a political narrative out of it.

    Humorously, most right commentators who claim to be against centralisation are all for ‘big government’ when it suits them.


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    Sam, “buttressed my viewpoint”?

    I’m not a lawyer, I waited 6 months to write anything because it was a big undertaking. I wanted a legal blog to take this up – it’s a property rights issue, not science communication. In the end, when no one else would do it, I saw a travesty and felt obliged do what I could.

    I see you haven’t read the 20,000 words I’ve written documenting their case?


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    Sounds fishy

    Jo – yes I have read the previous accounts, but you’ve just ducked the questions:

    How has a yet to be implemented carbon tax, that won’t account for agricultural emissions impact this issue – it doesn’t.

    Where is there any evidence that Matt’s views on AGW influenced DEC in any way.

    Should be easy to answer. Without answers it’s poor reporting.

    You may have your suspicions but that’s both opportunistic and indulgent without evidence.

    My suspicion is that Narrogin is a world away from the AGW debate ground zero. How indulgent of me.

    And I am not saying the Thompsons haven’t had a rough time nor am I unsympathetic to their misfortune, but things happen to many businesses every day. Why just pick this one? Tacking AGW and carbon tax onto the story with DEC is tacky regardless of the merits of those issues. It’s creating mythology on some very loose correlations. Which surely you’re against.

    Anyway enough said or I’ll be trolling.


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    Dallas Beaufort

    Another view on the Carbon Tax take: Or man made Global Warming, and its brain dead child Climate Change. Please be not be disturbed to the fact that all of this science is a shroud to implement a new taxation revenue stream to replace the now discredited crumbling edifice know as the current set of currencies, who’s values are suspect and have been worked to death. which need to be replace, hence the inflation of oil and gold and all manner of derivatives.


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    Kevin Moore

    Sounds Fishy

    You say -

    Where is there any evidence that Matt’s views on AGW influenced DEC in any way.

    Should be easy to answer. Without answers it’s poor reporting.

    You may have your suspicions but that’s both opportunistic and indulgent without evidence.

    It is reported above -

    Matt and Janet are skeptics who ran a Beef Feedlot from Narrogin, Western Australia (2 hours SE of Perth). When they spoke out against climate change policies, onerous license changes were added that drove them to bankruptcy. Readers here and at Watts Up raised over $30,000 dollars as they faced eviction in Sept 2010.

    Logic,facts and analysis would lead a rational person to the conclusion that it was Matt and Janets voicing of their viewpoints on climate change that brought about the DEC’s vindictive actions – what else would have caused the DEC to act in such an immoral manner?

    Your underlying problem I would think is that your education has brainwashed you to the extent that whenever the term skeptic appears it triggers in you a hate filled emotional response making you irrational and thus causing you to abandon facts and logic in any arguement that you may make.


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    Roy Hogue

    Their story in brief – a story I initially couldn’t believe would happen in Australia… – Jo Nova

    Unfortunately Jo, it’s beginning to look entirely possible to make that same statement about this country.


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    Sounds fishy

    This statement “the passage of the Carbon (sic) Tax in 2010 made the possibility of ever operating our feedlot again impossible. It meant that even if we won in court, most of our efforts to profitably operate our business would have gone towards convincing some bureaucrat that we weren’t causing greenhouse gas emissions, when in fact we were”

    is simply rubbish. There is no Australian carbon tax on agricultural emissions. Fabricated nonsense. If Nova couldn’t jam AGW or carbon tax into the discussion she wouldn’t be on the case. How can she let the above sentence stand when it’s WRONG!


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    Barry

    If all of this is true then why hasn’t the Liberal Barnett government done something about it? Is it yet another example of Liberal Premier not having the guts to confront the Left and undo their institutional apparatuses.
    Free speech is not under threat, because we have never had it. Only the Left have free speech in this country. Alan Jones is being pursued by ACMA on several fronts. Andrew Bolt has already been punished, but he doesn’t seem to understand that free speech should apply to the whole community and not just to him. The government has legislated of persecute people who ‘falsely’ claim that a price increase results from the carbon tax: result – no-one would dare state it even if it were true. But more to the point. Why have none of the Liberal Premiers abolished their anti-free-speech laws and tribunals? Why have they not used their positions to criticise the Gillard government for ruining our society? Howard had control of the Senate and did NOTHING to roll back Labor’s oppressive laws. Howard could have abolished 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act. Was he too scared to do it, or just incompetent? Instead, he treated workers like any other commodity and introduced legislation that will harm the Liberals’ election chances for years to come.
    This country is finished.


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    amcoz

    But the real irony about the whole reason for the carbon [sick, that's what is] tax is that it’s got absolutely nothing to do with controlling the climate: it’s all about, and has always been so, a nefarious way for the govmint to filch our wealth under a pseudonym for pol-loo-shone. They think we’re all imbeciles who won’t know differently, least of being told the truth; the govmint needs more of our dough to keep themselves in power.


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    Leslie

    Lets Cut to the Chase here.

    First what is behind this story and millions like it.
    Yes in Australia too.
    Which has nothing to do with which country you were born in.
    Which is not the left right paradigm.
    Which has absolutely nothing to do with helping the environment.

    But a mere front to take control of every persons sovereignty and every countries sovereignty.
    Which every side of government has bowed too in this Country and many others.

    The Courts are also a mere front to further their purpose, bar a very few near extinct honest ethical people.

    Agenda 21.

    Here are a few links to begin your research if you are unaware of what really is going on.

    http://www.un.org/esa/dsd/agenda21/
    http://www.green-agenda.com/agenda21.html
    http://www.topix.com/forum/world/australia/T8DGPKFP333V912OH
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTG9d2K1xVQ
    http://www.actforaustralia.com/articles/threats-freedom-agenda-21

    Best to fight this, then each other in the forum.
    Also to support those who have already experienced the brunt of this.

    Thanks Jo for your comment. I do understand. But one is met with tyranny on one side & ignorance on the other.
    With no system in place to protect you.
    So I rebuild again.


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    [...] or individuals they don’t like. An appalling example of that is the treatment of the Thompson family, whose successful business was forced to close by DEC, the Australian equivalent of the EPA, [...]


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    MadJak

    Matt Bennett,

    I would like to see the “Rock Solid Science” you speak of – in particular the evidence regarding the positive feedback of water vapour.

    Pity that’s all confidential – or is it non existent?

    Oh, and don’t pretend to care about the children. It is obvious you don’t.


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    Matt,
    1. Nothing you need to know is confidential. Follow the links above.
    2. What’s “public support” got to do with anything? (Or is that how you do science?)
    3. Hmm attacking the unknowable motives? You have nothing eh? Just thought you’d try for a cheap shot using the kids. “Poor form” eh?.

    BTW: What business do you own? You don’t seem to have left a link…


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    Dave

    .
    Matt Bennett,

    Amazing how you glow in the thought of the money due to you from the CO2 Tax!

    Many ex-Greens (and ALP) have been investing in properties over the past few years and stocking tens of thousands of cattle - ready to destock come July 1st and get a payout of $42 per head! Take a look at properties in WA, QLD and NT especially!

    CO2 Tax Collector: “How many cattle do you not run?”
    I’ll stop being a Cattle Farmer (Ex-Green): “50,000 as of 1st July”
    CO2 Tax Collector: ” Oh – calculates quickly – here’s your cheque for $2,100,000 @ $42.00 per head for Methane GHG reduction!”

    .
    Getting paid not to raise cattle? This will be exposed as the biggest con since the invention of the Left Handed Screwdriver!

    .
    And what is your contribution to the environment Mr. Matt Bennett?

    You owe the Thompsons more than you realise Mr. Matt Bennett!


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    Markus Fitzhenry

    “Rock Solid”. I’m still cacking myself.

    Dupes make me laugh so hard.


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    Ian Hill

    Matt Bennett, I do believe you may break Brooksey’s record for the most thumbs down and fastest “reverse ton”. The “rock solid science” you refer to is actually rock solid religion. How much CO2 “pollution” did you exhale today Matt?

    I’m pleased the Thompson family has made a decision like that. Yes, it’s hard for the children but they do adapt. I’ve seen the same in other families, ironicaly through not so dissimilar circumstances. Good luck Matt, Janet and family and I’m sure you will visit Australia again one day.


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    The Black Adder

    Matt…

    I thought Catamon and John B were stupid! But you take the cake!

    Just a pity they are moving to Texas, too many windfarms there for a sceptic!!


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    Dave

    .
    Matt Bennett,

    I’d say there’s a lot more to this story than meets the eye – pity it’s all confidential.

    You’re not wrong Mr. Matt Bennett – THERE’S A LOT MORE – here’s a link to one of the biggest con so far – $13 million pastoral property RM Williams Agricultural Holdings purchased this property (with the Federal Govt aid to the tune of $7 million) and is turning it into a CO2 credit scam – only less than 20% was used for cattle – and now they will earn millions for destocking the entire property? These de-stocking scams are worth billions to graziers – NOT TO RAISE CATTLE – sounds like YES MINISTER? The likely income per annum for RM Williams could be over $5 million.

    I now buy Redback Boots (on principle) that are made in China – it’s a sad story Mr. Matt Bennett – and unfortunately you are part of it!

    And you have the blood of this money on your hands!

    I feel for one commenter here “Sonny” that expressed his anger also – I am starting to feel the same way!

    Very Angry!!!!!!!!!!!!! :(


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    Grumpy Old Man

    The only thing that is rock solid about CAGW science are the heads of the believers.


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    Jaymez

    Matt I am usually prepared to give the benefit of the doubt to those who make silly comments. It is possible that they innocently misunderstood or misread a critical point. However, what you have shown by your comment is that you have clearly not read the supporting material regarding the Thompson’s business and the history with DEC. But that did not stop you from implying there was something nefarious which was deliberately being hidden from readers.

    I can only assume you deliberately besmirched the Thompsons because you are a believer in the “rock solid science of global warming”. I am sure you know that the terms when talking about ‘global warming’ and ‘climate change’ in reference to ‘hoax’ refers to the proposition that human green house gas emissions, particularly CO2 are causing catastrophic anthropogenic global warming (CAGW). Believers state that if emissions are not dramatically reduced soon (by up to 80% of 1990 levels we are told), we will reach a ‘tipping point’ of no return. Tim Flannery says we’ll have sea levels lapping the top storey of an 8 floor beach side building by 2100!

    Call it a hoax, call it a fantasy or a fraud, but CAGW has no rock solid underlying science. Unfortunately, as the Climategate emails and the hundreds of peer reviewed scientific papers which disprove the CAGW theory show, instead it is based on a bedrock of lying science!


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    This story sounds like really ripe BS.


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    Wow Matt, is 152 dislikes a record in these parts? Do you actually have any science qualifications in any relevant field so that you can make the judgement that the science is rock solid? I read the CAGW papers and most of them would have earned a well deserved verbal tongue lashing from my high school physics teacher.


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    Markus Fitzhenry

    Climate (so called) scientists are imbeciles. There is probably no net CO2-AGW. Basically, the assumption by the IPCC that all the absorbed Infra Red radiation (IR) is directly thermalised is wrong.

    The reason is that there is no direct process for transfer of absorbed quanta in GHG molecules by multiple collisions to symmetrical N2 and O2 as apparently claimed in climate science.

    Molecules have no memory so Local Thermal Equilibrium (LTE) is restored once an already excited molecule emits the same quantum, therefore no direct thermalisation.
    Kirchhoff’s law at equilibrium has always and will always be used for the correct design of furnaces. Kinetic selection in energy is transferred by multiple pseudo-scattering events as if the GHGs were a heat transfer medium, only stopping when the quantum is thermalised at a heterogeneous interface, or heads off to space.
    The hetrogenous surfaces of atmosphere do not have the same absorbitivy of the << 1 black body surface of the earth. It really does come down to the correct understand and application of gas laws.

    Clouds are grey bodies because the absorbed band specific IR is thermalised over many wavelengths. Tyndalls' experiments are driven by the container and the pressure rise at constant volume. His hypothesis does not reflect reality, atmosphere is not enclosed. The bottom of clouds emit specular light in the atmospheric window back to the Earth whose energy will have originally been partly CO2 specific, there will also be transfer in the other direction so it probably cancels out.

    As the atmosphere thins and has fewer clouds with height, the IR emitted with warm air will preferentially escape to space because as it is pseudo-scattered, it is selected to escape up. This means that as height increases, the emissivity down tends to zero. Hence, emissivity down will be less than absorptivity down above the cloud level.

    In summary: thermalisation is indirect and because the scattering of IR from the Earth’s surface asymptotes at ~200 ppmv [CO2], there can be no net CO2-(A)GW in the post ice age World.

    Doug Cotton has been banging on about back radiation for eons. His hypothesis, although not fully described is, in fact, correct.
    In the universe of superior physics, climate science rates only above average.

    This age of humanity, that causes the distress this family suffered by the hand of "climate science" sits well below the humanity displayed neanderthals. We all should be ashamed

    “Rock solid science” my bum.


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    Markus Fitzhenry

    “Your ‘public support’ comment makes no sense to me whatsoever?”

    Goes with the territory of being a dope. Matt.


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    MadJak

    For someone who claims to work with kids, you really show a severe lack of basic tolerance. Those poor poor kids who happen to deal with you.


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    Sonny

    Matt Bennett,

    People who genuinely believe that global warming (of 1 degree Celsius per 100 years, or 0.1 degrees per decade which is the absolute maximum you can find on any data records) is seriously a threat to children are either:

    1. Financially invested in the prosperity of climate science, renewable energies, carbon trading etc
    2. ideologically biased against “big oil” and “big coal”.
    3. Brainwashed left wing groupies who fantasize about communal living in mud huts.
    4. Unthinking, unquestioning media programmed sheep.

    WHICH CATEGORY DO YOU FALL IN?


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    Bob Malloy

    Despite all the nonsense that flies around on sites like this, global warming, caused by our fossil fuel emissions, is a major reality to be dealt with largely during the lifetimes of these children. It does make it hard when they start out on the wrong foot.

    1. specify “all the nonsense that flies around on sites like this”

    2. evidence on “global warming, caused by our fossil fuel emissions, is a major reality” please.

    3. It does make it hard when they (children)start out on the wrong foot.

    On this one I agree and I can only pray global warming propaganda be removed from our education system and be promptly banned, and all those that are guilty of sending our children into deep states of depression for fear of a burning world are duly punished.


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    Escovado

    Matt Bennett,

    Are you really this obtuse or is this a put on?

    Read the paragraph over again carefully. The confidential agreement is in reference to their creditors which have absolutely nothing to do with their very public case against the Department of Environment and Conservation—save for the fact that the DEC drove them to bankruptcy for publically daring to question AGW.

    I do think you’re a little confused about what constitutes genuine science. Empirical science requires observational evidence to support it and AGW is seriously lacking in that department. Do yourself a favor and read Joanne’s well-presented Skeptic’s Handbook. The government-sponsored, alarmist propaganda you’ve been swallowing doesn’t make AGW any less of a hoax either.

    Finally, all of those “terribly ill-served children you see being ‘home-schooled’ in US Bible belt states” consistently score head and shoulders above your enlightened public school students in standardized tests; so much for them “start[ing] out on the wrong foot.”


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    Jaymez

    Matt, I don’t want to repeat it, but please refer to my comment at #1.9 if you haven’t already done so.

    I would also ask, if as you say, the science is so rock solid for CAGW please advise:

    1. How much of the warming since the Little Ice Age is attributable to human green house gas emissions and how much of it is caused by natural climate drivers. Please differentiate between each of the natural climate drivers and the component of heating attributable to it.

    2. Please advise where I can find the calculations which use empirical evidence to project CAGW.

    3. While you are at it, can you direct me to where I can find where the projections of CAGW have taken into account all negative feedback mechanisms.

    4. It would also be good to understand what happened to the rock solid data and notes used by the CRU to adjust raw temperature data to their homogenised data which consistently increased any warming effect shown and was used by the IPCC. As the CRU have lost it and The Met are going to be spending about three years trying to reconstruct it, it would be handy if you could pass the information along to them too.

    5. I am sure you also have a rock solid explanation about why the temperature projections made in the IPCC reports have been so wrong!

    If you can give me plausible responses to the above, not only will I recommend you for a Nobel Prize, I will give you a whole lot more questions yet to be answered by ‘rock solid’ climate science.


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    agwnonsense

    Oh you poor deluded fool Matt,wake up and enjoy our beautiful ever changing world.Climate Change is Natural and CO2 is Life.


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    Matt, the major greenhouse gas on planet Earth is water vapour. All the rest, including CO2, have little to do with it.
    I see you are trying for a new record again.


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    Sonny

    5. All of the above.


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    Streetcred

    Sonny, you left out:

    (6) Playing with themselves.


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    The methane escaping from melting Arctic clathrates are going to accelerate global warming something fierce! I don’t have kids but fear for my great and great great nieces and nephews. Goes with not being solid bone behind the eyes you see?


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    That is just rubbish. Anyone can read the reports and the inescapable conclusions they point to.

    It is known the Koch Bros fund the anti-AGW krank science. Heartland propaganda outfit has had to pull its horns in so you might see less krank science at least for a while.


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    Escovado

    Sonny,

    All of the above.

    You took the words right out of my mouth. :)


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    Bob Malloy

    This has got to stop.

    “The Public Broadcast Service recently reported that increasing numbers of educators are teaching about the controversy over climate change. This has the scientific establishment doubling down on efforts to feed children their mantra: There is no debate.

    There is no man behind the curtain, Dorothy. The “consensus” has spoken.”

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/5/teaching-global-warming-in-kindergarten/


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    MadJak

    This reminds me of a story I heard when GST was introduced in NZ.

    The plan was to get 3 people. One of them buys a boat, then sells it to the 2nd person. They then keep selling the boat between all three of them and claiming back the GST on the Fish in the hold of the ship.

    It was legal initially. The Tax man found out, tried to nail these guys. One of them was a Tax Solicitor. He told them they would fail in court. They amended the legislation.

    In this case, with the carbon tax, i fail to see how they can amend the legislation to prevent this.

    Time to stock up on cheap beef.

    It could be a good time for struggling farmers to send a clear message to us city folk wrt appreciating fresh local food.


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    Maxine, you say:

    Nice big solar power generation facility going up in NSW, first of many, helping drop electricity prices, creating jobs and so on.

    Well go on Maxine, explain this plant to us. How much power, what the cost will be, how long it will last, how many hours the plant will produce power for, the process involved, the government subsidies.

    Go ahead Maxine, tell us what you know, and I know that you don’t know, so I’ll even let you look it up, and write it word for word from their own site.

    Then Maxine, I’ll shoot that full of holes for you. I’ll explain, not the warm fluffy green glow that you have read at their site. I’ll explain how it really operates, something these sites will never ever publish.

    No Maxine, you won’t even bother to reply, (a) because you have no idea at all, and (b) you’re not sure what you’ll be writing even by copying it out.

    Tony.


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    Kevin Moore

    Maxine

    Re job figures,a normal persons definition of employed would not correspond with the politicians definition whereby one hours work a week is classed as being employed.

    http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/featurearticlesbytitle/C35049FCB841741BCA256A1F0002C384?OpenDocument


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    Kevin Moore

    In 2007 public debt per person for Australia was $6,719.73. This year it is $12,469.67. It isn’t good enough to say that our debt is low by international standards (it isn’t) when the burden of that debt has doubled over the past five years and it has to be paid back by Australians.


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    Bob Malloy

    Nice big solar power generation facility going up in NSW, first of many, helping drop electricity prices, creating jobs and so on.

    Fill me in maxine, would that be the 150MW plant proposed for Moree, the one that couldn’t raise finance.

    The Solar Flagships program has been receiving a lot of media attention recently for the failure of the program’s two winning applicants to meet the deadline for funding requirements. The 250MW concentrating solar power (CSP) plant in Chinchilla, Queensland has managed to have this deadline extended, while the Moree Solar Farm, a 150MW solar PV plant in NSW, has been thrown back into the running against its former competitors for the funding, with Federal Resources and Energy Minister Martin Ferguson’s office noting that the Moree project had also been altered significantly from the original plan.


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    warcroft

    Wow Maxine, brainwashed by Labor spin much?
    Every day we are hearing about large companies laying off hundreds of workers. Not to mention the hundreds of smaller businesses doing the same.
    Thousands of people have lost their jobs recently (Ive had to make a number of my staff redundant the past couple of months) and yet you sprout on about great employment figures? You are obviously blind to reality.
    I seriously didnt think anyone believed labors latest numbers spin. But obviously I was wrong. There really are those out there who are out of touch with reality.


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    goanna

    Maxine

    That is absolute tripe.

    Cheap solar power is an “oximoron”.
    You are soooo gullible.


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    Kevin Moore

    From Catallaxy Files.com


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    Kevin Moore

    Samples of debt/GDP

    Debt per person, Aus $12,469-67 – as a percentage of GDP 22.6%

    China dpp $921 – 17.3%

    Japan $87,600.85 – 204.9%

    Canada $39,883.18 – 81.6%

    UK $32,207.96 – 84.6%

    US $37,952.73 – 76.3%

    Papua New Guinea $388.00 – 22.5%

    http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock

    Do you think that you have cash in the bank?

    $53.2 billion in Australian notes on issue.

    Sounds like a lot, right?

    According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS), in December 2011 there were 11.441 million employed people in Australia.

    So $53.2 billion in notes equals just $4,655 per employed person.

    Doesn’t sound like so much now, does it?

    But wait. There’s more.

    According to the RBA’s spreadsheet titled “Assets – Selected Assets and Liabilities of the Private Non-financial Sectors”, it seems that “Households and unincorporated enterprises” have $668 billion in “Financial Assets – Deposits.”

    And “Private non-financial corporations” supposedly have another $318 billion in “Financial Assets – Bank Deposits.”

    So that’s $986 billion in “Deposits” for households and private (non-bank) businesses … combined.

    Versus a grand total of only $53.2 billion in actual Australian notes issued by the RBA.

    Confused?

    If so, then it is probably because you have not yet seen through the biggest, longest-running con in the history of the human race.

    It used to be called “money-lending”.

    Now it’s called “banking”.

    In a nutshell, the “money” that most people think is in the bank … isn’t.

    http://barnabyisright.com/2012/02/05/think-youve-got-cash-in-the-bank-think-again


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  • #

    It is low and the surplus budgets will see the debt go lower.

    You should be more concerned at private sector debt—tho people and companies are trying to deleverage and save—that is good for the long term.

    The reason we have some debt is the GFC hitting company tax revenue for a sixer. Losses still being carried forward and written off against profits will keep company tax receipts depressed for a while. Reason the Budget is going into surplus is all the middleclass welfare that Swan has been pruning out of expenditure.

    So the govt has done a brilliant job, and the Carbon Price won’t kill the economy either. China, Korea introducing cap and trade schemes, we would suffer before long if we didn’t introduce ours.

    2014 I hope Swanny bumps up income tax and removes the diesel fuel rebate.


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    Robert

    So do your comments, but Jo posts them anyways.


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    Heywood

    Great contribution troll…..

    BS huh? Just like your whole religion.

    You and your fellow warmists will be held to account at some point, and I can’t wait for the reckoning…..


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    Bob Massey

    Maxine thanks for backing us up, we think the situation is BS too but it won’t stop idiots like you or Matt.


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    agwnonsense

    The MSM is part of the scam mate ,without their collusion the WHOLE climate thing would die a natural death,At the end of it all the the media will say “it wasn’t us”,and I will say “did you try and stop it,did you tell us the truth” What’s the answer my friend?


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    Kevin Moore

    These quote are apt I reckon.

    Benjamin CONSTANT on the effects of arbitrary power

    “Thus arbitrary power will have divided men of superior intelligence into two groups: the former will be seditious, the latter corrupt…”
    – Benjamin Constant, The Spirit of Conquest and Usurpation (1814), reprinted in Political Writings, translated and edited by Bancamaria Fontana (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1989), p. 126. Later editions than the 1814 one had “despotism” instead of “abitrary power.”

    Benjamin CONSTANT on the presumption of innocence

    “It is a misfortune that we offer the guilty the chance of impunity, but it is not nearly as bad as delivering the good man to the vengeance of the oppressor.”
    – Benjamin Constant, Principles of Politics Applicable to All Governments (1810) (Indianapolis: Liberty Fund, 2003), p. 160.

    http://www.pierrelemieux.org/quotes.html


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  • #

    Ross is this connected to the live cattle export ban. Maybe a few squares are getting filled in?


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    Chris in Hervey Bay

    Tony,
    Some many months ago I was unfortunate to hear a mug from Canberra prattling on about a new proposed wind farm and how it would provide all the energy needs for 30,000 homes.

    I asked the question then and it still stands today, i.e. How many wind turbines do you need to provide all the energy needs for ONE home when the wind is not blowing.

    Needless to say the question has STILL NOT BEEN ANSWERED !

    Maybe you may like to take a guess ???


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    WTF are you rabbiting about? The info is available, try, for example:

    http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/journal/worlds-largest-solar-power-stations-to-be-built-in-australia.htm

    Another effect of AGW:
    http://www.antarctica.gov.au/media/news/2012/latest-southern-ocean-research-shows-continuing-deep-ocean-change

    A marked, decades long reduction in Antarctic Bottom Water. Sounds funny but the really dense water affects ocean currents: that is going to affect our climate a LOT! Will also affect fisheries.

    But stick your fingers in your ears and shout “Lalalala can’t hear you!” but that will only work for a little while.


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  • #

    Chris,
    the answer to your question is one word.

    Axiomatic!

    Also, with respect to Wind Power I’d like to point out something that was said 407 years ago.

    Just then, they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from the plain. No sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his Squire, “Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. For this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from the face of the Earth is a service God will bless.”

    From Don Quixote
    Part 1
    Miguel de Cervantes
    1605.

    In this one respect, sometimes I feel exactly like the noble Don.

    Tony.


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    Escovado

    Have you seen the segment from Today Tonight, Adelaide about the wind farms?

    Wind Farms


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    Bob Massey

    Escovado, nice try but Matt is a “True Believer” and nothing that we can say will convince him otherwise because there is only nonsense on this site. He deals with children all the time and therefore knows more about the subject than you or I. That supposedly, in his mind, puts him on the altar of knowledge above us, about the same as his friends at the IPCC. His religion reigns supreme !

    Matt is a true critical thinker, NOT !


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  • #

    Satelites show more energy enters Earth than leaves it. Crackpot science is just that, crackpot! Ask yourself why those who say, against all the evidence incl Arctic ice shrinking, that there is nowarming when there damn well has been!


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    Pat

    Exactly right Markus. Seems Matt and Maxine have little knowledge in science…even though Maxine claims to.


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    You REALLY think it is that easy to scam $m?


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  • #

    Then why is the globe warming?


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    I have no religion, being an atheist. I am a scientist and have a B.Sc. from Adelaide Uni. Plimer is a complete fraud! LOOK at the science: globe is warming, Arctic ice is shrinking, glaciers are retreating, weather is getting more violent. You can close your eyes and pretend it isn’t happening but unless you are a child that doesn’t work.

    No Gawd is going to come and clean up the nest we have been shitting in. We are going to have to do that ourselves but the time to do so is ever less. Last year in the Arctic it was thought fun to light the methane escaping from melting clathrates. This year the escaping methane is not thought to be funny.


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  • #

    Why not stop and think and research the case, Bet it won’t be as Jo has spun it to appear.


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    Globe is warming, Actic ice shrinking, methane clathrates melting and ever more megatons of methane escaping into the atmosphere. That is reality. What Jo wrote does not sound right at all, bet there is something important she left out. That is how astroturfers work don’t you know?


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  • #

    Well I am another farmer ( a Biodynamic one at that) ruined by the corrupt Australian Government and Big Business who have sold the soul of Australia to the worse on this planet, who control Monsanto, who own the Carbon Tax & who have orchestrated the collapse of the financial systems worldwide to name a few.

    Oh gawd, that sounds like a fairy tale, you know, the woman who swallowed a fly and sent a spider down to catch the fly, then a mouse to fetch the spider etc.

    Monsanto owns the carbon tax? If you mean here there is no carbon tax in sight.

    Monsanto is a bad corporate global citizen tho, its GMO shit will create ecological catastrophes down the line as the modified genes escape into weed species or a new mould or virus wipes out swathes of GMP wheat world wide.


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  • #

    The trend is what is important.

    The one hour a week thing I believe is meaningless, but is an international standard. 40,000 new fulltime jobs is a good thing without dispute. The US only managed 80,000, some difference!

    Not only that, housing loan applications have actually ticked up by 0.2% in each of the last two months—confidence is returning.

    The Carbon Price will stimulate the economy further. How good is that?


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    I think they might get funding from the Clean Energy Fund. With the Carbon Price solar becomes very competitive with coal so one way or the other large scale solar generators will get built.


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  • #

    Those are the official ABS figures, not ALP Head Office spin. All those closures, they really exist or do you get your news from 2GB?

    That said, neither Baillieu nor O’Farrel are helping the economy of their states much.


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    Because solar become competitive with coal, because business now has certainty and can invest the megabucks. Not rocket science.


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    The MSM that fated the fraud Mockton etc?

    The globe is warming, the melting methane clathrates in the Arctic are going to accelerate it.


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    Pat

    Satellites show nothing of the sort.


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    ExWarmist

    Hi Maxine,

    Is this paper by Lindzen and Choi an example of crackpot science: http://www-eaps.mit.edu/faculty/lindzen/236-Lindzen-Choi-2011.pdf

    Could you please enlighten us with a specific rebuttal of their empirical evidence (from the ERBE and CERES Satellites) and of their analysis.

    I look forward to your penetrating and insightful response, which should be easy for you – after all the science by Lindzen and Choi is crackpot and you have a B.Sc.


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    Debbie

    Good grief Maxine,
    no one but no one is claiming the climate is static.
    The claimed drivers is the problem.
    Didn’t your science degree teach you that the climate/weather is always in a state of flux?


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    Pat

    Interglacials are warmer.


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    ExWarmist

    Hi Maxine,

    Why has the globe been warming from before the beginning of the industrial revolution?

    Nothing to do with the end of the global little ice age as recorded by Climate Scientist John Daly REF: http://www.john-daly.com/hockey/hockey.htm

    Or was it?


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    ExWarmist

    The holocene has been warmer than now – research the Holocene Climatic Optimum. REF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_climatic_optimum

    Are you sure that you have a B.Sc?

    Or are you just kidding?


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    David, UK

    Oh for crying out loud. Is Maxine for real?


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    Pat

    How much methane is in the air right now? How much will there be when the ice melts? And PUHLEASE dont prattle on about CH4 bing 22 times more potent GHG than CO2, because that argument simply fails when you study IR spectra and absorption bands. Maybe we should have a termite tax as termites emit more CH4 than all human activity put together, even healthy forrests emit more CH4 than humans. I don’t care where you got your B.Sc but I’d say its more BS than science.


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    Popeye

    You have just PROVED you don’t have a scientific atom in your ENTIRE body.

    IF you WERE a scientist you would take into account the complete evidence.

    That is: Rising Co2 – FALLING temperatures – THAT IS A FACT.

    Nothing you say OR do can disprove this FACT.

    Welcome to the REAL scientific world you BS ARTIST!!!

    Cheers,


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    Popeye,

    Temperatures are not falling.


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    Robert

    Using traditional logic having a B.Sc. does not make one a scientist any more than having an auto makes one a race car driver. Although using the type of logic Maxine and so many climate “scientists” use being able to make a paper airplane would make one an aeronautical engineer and a pilot.


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    ExWarmist

    I have no religion

    Hi Maxine,

    It’s not that people think that you “think that MMGW is a religeon”, it is that you behave like a religeous fundamentalist (pick any faith), who is unable to question their own assumptions and who assumes that those who disagree with them are simply wrong.

    The most intellectually courageous thing that anyone can do is too sit down and seriously question their own dearly held beliefs and the core assumptions that underpin their own conclusions.

    A willingness to do so is at the heart of the skeptical mindset.


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    Manfred

    Maxine – with your BSc, I know you have been taught some ability to appraise the literature and the evidence. In light of your comment 1.10.2.1 regarding increasing weather ‘violence’, sic: “weather is getting more violent.”

    Please have a look at Alexander et al. Australian Meteorological and Oceanographic Journal 61 (2011) 23-30, ‘Significant decline in storminess over southeast Australia since the late 19th century’
    you will see they report on hard records, not modeled data.

    In your earlier comment: 1.8.1 you state: “Then why is the globe warming?” I’m sure you can look at the same official sources (UK Met Office) that state temperatures have not risen since 1997, in spite of rising CO2 levels.

    Two current (Jan 2012) media sources, quoted and cited below, report on the temperature data release by the UK Met Office.

    “Last week, the UK Met released its latest global temperature data to the world. It shows that the Earth has not warmed in 15 years. The warming ceased after the great super El Nino of 1998.”

    “The numbers are based on readings from more than 30,000 measuring stations around the planet. The data was quietly released last week without fanfare and it confirms that the rising trend in world temperatures ended in 1997.”

    “Based on readings from more than 30,000 measuring stations, the data was issued last week without fanfare by the Met Office and the University of East Anglia Climatic Research Unit. It confirms that the rising trend in world temperatures ended in 1997.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2093264/Forget-global-warming–Cycle-25-need-worry-NASA-scientists-right-Thames-freezing-again.html#ixzz1xF4GnFST
    Read more: http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/weather/weather_news/United-Kingdom-Meteorology-Office-declares-Earth-hasnt-warmed-in-15-years#ixzz1xF3u2JLg

    I guess you respect the data – after all it does come from folk who have been on record agreeing with you. I suppose it may explain why there was no fanfare. And it may not be lost on you that a media association between temperature and ENSO, rather than CO2 appears to be the preferred one now: “The warming ceased after the great super El Nino of 1998.”

    It must be severely depressing for you and your scientific friends reliant on modeled data, not to mention a source of everlasting existential angst to so many of those who ‘believe’ in the politically correct hypothesis of CAGW – that is, the fraction of a degree described as: “The anomaly of -0.116C, relative to the 30 year running average, equates to an anomaly of approximately +0.137C above the more standard 1961-1990 average.” Paul Hudson – Global temperature update | 16:08 UK time, Wednesday, 7 March 2012

    Still you can console yourself that the rest of us financially shackled to a carbon dioxide tax have a lot more work to do in order to reclaim our financial and political freedom from lying politicians, mindless bureaucrats and a primitivised, eco-socialist modeled future.

    In the end, one or two heads will role in ‘a day of reckoning’, but like the doctrine of eugenics, the whole edifice of CAGW will simply slide into disrepute and official amnesia – eg. rest assured, no one will be coming to get you.


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    Ian Hill

    Maxine wrote:

    I am a …….. and have a B.Sc. from Adelaide Uni.

    SNAP!

    Oh no, the embarrassment I have to live with now!

    I don’t remember any Maxine when I was there, but there were a lot of students.


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    Any anonymous troll can claim any qualifications he or she likes. Until you prove to us who you really are it is usually taken as BS.


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    goanna

    Maxine

    you can not possibly be for real


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    Have you looked at the Methane IR band recently?

    It is gobsmackingly small that you would need a magnifying glass to see it:

    LINK

    So little Methane and so little IR absorption to do much of anything.


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    Wayne, s. Job

    Much to the chagrin of the AGW crowd it was recently published that methane levels in the atmosphere are falling. Why is this so Maxine.


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    Sounds like to really, really need to get laid.


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    goanna

    Maxine

    You really have no idea do you.


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    Bob Malloy

    I think they might get funding from the Clean Energy Fund.

    And we all know what thought done? dont we. He only thought he did.


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    Bob Malloy

    I think they might get funding from the Clean Energy Fund.

    Just another parasitic blood sucker on the tax payer then, nuff said.


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    ExWarmist

    Hi Maxine,

    Do you really think that the clean energy fund will survive the first budget after the 2013 elections?

    Surely you are not that naive?

    Malinvestments will be unwound – of necessity.


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    Juliar

    Clearly you are very selective in reading the news as I have read some QLD LNP members who have come out on our side. People aren’t saying that alarmists aren’t in the Coalition, many of them are alarmists. But scepticism is stronger in the Coalition than other parties. I don’t anyone on here would disagree with that so I think it is time you would stop making such silly generalizations. Believe it or not, I actually vote for a party not just on a single issue like what parties are doing about CAGW but multiple issues.


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    Juliar

    What news have you been reading? Liberal Governments in most states have either have cut a lot of the ‘Green’ programs or bureaucrats that Labor has created. They aren’t perfect on that front but you like Memory Vault may want to start reading the news on this stuff a bit more.


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    Juliar

    I am a Victorian, so I can only speak on behalf of Ted Baillieu but I think they are doing quite a decent job considering that a lot of their federal funding was cut dramatically which they didn’t know about before the election and because of the High AUD which is making it hard for Manufacturing in Victoria, which is a big industry. Also, they are putting a lot of money into infrastructure which I think a bigger emphasis needs to be put on Nation wide.


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    memoryvault

    .
    So, this entire sorry episode concerning the Thompsons did NOT happen under a LIBERAL government. In fact, for the entire nearly five year period of its unfolding, one can find story after of LIBERAL polticians who were “on the verge” of intervening and introducing some sanity into the affair sarc/off.

    QLD’s LNP Environment Minister did NOT say the following just the other day:

    Andrew Powell says he is yet to be convinced of the degree to which humans are responsible, but he does support efforts to reduce carbon pollution.

    “I believe the climate is changing, I am still to be convinced of the degree to which we are influencing that,” Mr Powell said.

    “But having said that, are we polluting the environment? Certainly. Are we using a non-renewable source of energy? Certainly. Do we need to address both of those factors? Most definitely.”

    And the federal Liberal Party does NOT have a “climate change” policy that allows for, amongst other things, the creation of a 15,000 strong “Green army”, charged with planting millions of trees in the name of “climate mitigation” and “sustainability”.

    Let me translate that into plainspeak for you Juliar. Somebody has to oversee these things, and somebody has to implement them, so here’s how it will go:

    1) – The 1700 strong Department of Climate Change will be rebranded the Department of Sustainable Development or some such, charged with the task of overseeing the implementation of the “environmental army” and given a $400 million a year budget to do so.

    2) – The Department of Sustainable Development will call for “Expressions of Interest” from “suitably qualified” organisations to develop “recruitment, training and implementation programs” for our Green Army.

    3) – The lion’s share of these contracts will be awarded to Greenpeace, the WWF, and GetUP!

    4) – As a consequence, $400 million a year of taxpayer’s money will be spent recruiting and brainwashing training the next generation of Simon Singh’s and Anna Rose’.

    5) – Liberal party politicians and their sycophant supporters will sit back and bask in the glory of having done something “meaningful” to win votes “save the environment”, and “stop global warming climate change”.

    6) – Eventually the purely natural, cyclical rains will stop, and the purely natural, cyclical droughts will return, and all the planted trees will die.

    7) – Nobody will notice, least of all Liberal politicians and their sycophant supporters, because by then we will be on to the Next Big Thing – whatever that is.

    .
    We both read the same news Juliar – I just don’t wear rose coloured glasses while doing so.


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    Escovado

    Bob Massey,

    I know, but I can’t resist when it’s so painfully obvious he never bothered to read what he was commenting on in the first place.


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    memoryvault

    Liberal Governments in most states have either have cut a lot of the ‘Green’ programs or bureaucrats that Labor has created.

    Want to give us an actual concrete example Juliar?

    And I don’t mean statements of intention, I don’t mean grand postures like Campbell Newman, which actually amounted to about 35 public servants taking redundancy and the rest simply rebranded into other departments – but still doing the same jobs.

    Actually, I’ll make it real easy for you Juliar. The veracity of Al Gore’s propaganda production “An Inconvenient Truth”, was tested in court in the UK. The court’s findings were that the film was little more than a propaganda piece and couldn’t be shown in UK schools without a warning being read to the children first, pointing out the film was propaganda, NOT a documentary.

    Your mission Juliar, should you decide to accept it, is to provide evidence of just ONE “conservative” state government in Australia imposing the same UK legal requirements on their state schools.

    Actually, I’ll make it even simpler. Provide evidence of just one “conservative” politician in just one of these “conservative” state governments, even calling for such a measure.

    No, I thought not. Trouble is, Juliar, you treat politics like Andrew Bolt does: like it was football, or rugby or soccer or cricket, and we all have a duty to barrack for our “team” regardless of the truth of the matter.


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    Popeye

    You’re such a smart arse Maxine – why don’t you agree to DEBATE Jo and her husband being such a world renowned scientist that you have suggested you are?

    I’m SURE that you won’t have ANY problem winning such a debate and all of us here would welcome the entertainment.

    I will send a personal email to Jo over the next couple of days in support of this debate and I’m sure many others here will do the same.

    Where would be your preference to hold said debate?? Let us know and I’ll encourage Jo to accept the challenge.


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    Manfred

    Maxine, in New Zealand we have just been advised by those wise talking heads, the MSM and University Academics (Waikato) that methane is not responsible for (no) temperature rise since 1997, but in fact, it is now the 20% rise in population, one that consumes ever larger amounts of the 70% hydro renewable generated power in NZ.

    And this in the face of the pending High Court Case against out Met office (NIWA) who are being challenged on the basis of their ‘adjusted’ temperature data record.

    I’m certain, a fine intellect such as yours and a BSc to boot, must begin to detect a slight discordant perturbation in The Force.


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    ExWarmist

    Hi Maxine,

    Globe is warming, Actic ice shrinking, methane clathrates melting and ever more megatons of methane escaping into the atmosphere. That is reality.

    You come with assertions and yet your hands are empty of real data (please provide links in the future).

    What is your intention here? To convince us of the case for Man Made Global Warming on rhetoric alone? (Yor are dreaming if you think that, that will work).

    You fail to understand us – we are sceptics – we require real, empirical, independently verifiable, measurable evidence on which we will then use reason to come to conclusions. Rhetoric by itself is ineffective and unacceptable as a debating technique.

    You need to understand the game if you want to play, and it is only your intellectual arrogance (instead of humility and courage) that stands in the way of you appreciating the conversation that is occuring here.

    Yours sincerely – ExWarmist


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    Andrew McRae

    There is practically no difference between Romney and Obama. Romney wrote the legislation that became the basis of Obamacare.
    “He advocated for what we’re now in front of the Supreme Court saying is unconstitutional,” Santorum said.
    Romney can hardly be opposed to big government spending when he promises to make the USA military the most powerful in the world. More big government deficit spending on buddy bailouts (like offshoring GM to Brazil) will be in the pipeline.

    Besides, The banksters own both these candidates, which means you lose if either of them “win”. Romney is doing everything he can to make sure of it.

    Don’t quote Mittens like he’s some guiding light.


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    Maxine,

    people like you intrigue me. You tell us above that you have a B.Sc. so quite obviously you do have a brain. However, what I cannot understand is that given this admirable brain, you have such tunnel vision.

    You link to an article about two Solar plants that are in serious doubt of ever taking shape, plants that have been explained as being of such little benefit. I ask you to explain the process for me, but you cannot, mainly because, even with that brain, you yourself have no real understanding whatsoever of what they actually do achieve.

    Having said that, and I was resigned to the fact that you wouldn’t accept the challenge of providing an explanation, what intrigues me is the fact that in one breath, (again as you quote above) you say that whatever Monsanto does, and says that they do at their site is a pack of lies, and nothing but crap. And yet, in the same breath, what you read about renewable power at the sites you visit and link to is somehow as pure as the driven snow.

    I can explain that ANY form of renewable power is marginal at best, horrendously expensive, and can only survive if there is huge Government money thrown at it. I can effectively deconstruct anything said at any of those renewable power sites, and I have done so with both of the power plants you have linked to, just two among hundreds I have explained.

    What I can’t understand is that even when shown conclusively that these sites spout as much crap as you lay at Monsanto’s door, you still prefer to believe what is in effect well disguised information aimed specifically at people who have no understanding of what is actually being said at those sites.

    You just flat out call us all lairs.

    Another thing that intrigues me also. Again, having such a wonderful brain, you especially, with that B.Sc. must know that if someone has Cancer, they have surgery, radiation therapy etc to send them into remission, in other words the Doctor does something in an attempt to cure that person. Everything stops until it is cured.

    Here we are told by the likes of you and other Scientists that the World is sick, in fact, catastrophically sick. Are they doing anything to stop it? Are they stopping the production of the CO2 that is supposedly killing the Earth in the same manner that Cancer is killing the patient. You would surely think that, hey, this is really drastic, so lets stop those emissions.

    Well are they?

    Well, no in fact.

    Not one large scale coal fired plant has been closed here in Australia, in fact not one coal fired plant of any size has been closed because of CO2 emissions. In the bigger picture, not one large scale coal fired plant has closed in the US either.

    Maxine, surely even you must see this and wonder why.

    You’ve been conned, big time, and you don’t even realise it. You believe one side because that’s whose Politics you follow, and whatever they say is pure as the driven snow, and even when you have been comprehensively shown that what you believe with respect to renewable power is patently false, you still believe the spin.

    And here’s you telling us how you have a B.Sc. You may indeed have that, but you have no CDF. (fourth Para, second sentence)

    Maxine, that was waste of a student loan if I ever saw one.

    Tony.


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    Ian, just what was Brooksey’s great record for thumbs down? I’ve just had to reset the benchmark so all these comments don’t disappear. If I put the limit at 200 thumbs down, is that enough?

    Congratulations Matt.


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    Rereke Whakaaro

    And your reference is …. where?

    Maxine,

    Opinion is not science, and there is little room in real science for opinion.

    Opinion is the realm of politics – a medium I work in every day. From your posts, I would say that you are a political little doggie, and probably left of centre?

    Unless, of course you believe in what you post – in which case, that is religion, and nothing can be done to save you.


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    I said I have a BSc. Don’t put words in my mouth.

    Try reading real science, not krank sites.


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    Probably they don’t want kids taught krank science. Would you want your kids taught Creationism and Flat Earth nonsenses?


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    I don’t watch garbage shows like TNT and ACA.


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    Coal is no longer that cheap.


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    ExWarmist

    Hi Maxine, You have a B.Sc – excellent.

    Please inform me what the defined falsification criteria are for Man Made Global Warming? I’ve been looking, but haven’t found them yet.

    I.e. That would be the specific, measurable, empirical events that if they were to occur would disprove the current hypothesis of Man Made Global Warming.

    Your hypothesis is falsifiable isn’t it?

    Thanks

    Your help in this little issue is much appreciated.

    Cheers ExWarmist


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    ExWarmist

    Hi Maxine,

    Could you please quantify (in a scientific way – as befits your B.Sc) the $ amounts that are funding the Sceptic movement as opposed to the $ amounts that are funding the Man Made Global Warming movement. Please detail the funds that are spent on different purposes, i.e. Funding for Research, Funding for Advertising, Funding for lobbyists, political and university donations, etc.

    I am very keen to see your precise, analysis of the funding for both movements side by side. It should be illuminating.

    Thanks in advance – I do appreciate your hard work to illuminate the discourse on this site.

    Cheers ExWarmist


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    Maxine, you’ve just shown yourself up as someone who only reads one side of the argument, and even then to a very limited extent.

    If you read the details into the Heartland and the Koch brothers you would easily and quickly find that they only gave funds to Heartland for healthcare projects, not anti-AGW science. And it was only a relatively tiny amount of $25K – compared to the billions of $ that the pro-AGW groups get from government.

    Because you might be very busy (probably why you haven’t done any basic research) here’s a link that gives all the details.


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    ExWarmist

    That is just rubbish. Anyone can read the reports and the inescapable conclusions they point to.

    It is known the Koch Bros fund the anti-AGW krank science. Heartland propaganda outfit has had to pull its horns in so you might see less krank science at least for a while.

    Wow Maxine, just Wow – it’s a conspiracy of moustache twirling, monocle adjusting, hairless cat stroking, evil, right wing, geniuses that are blocking the righteous, just, noble, planet saving, humanity saving, polar bear saving, spotted newt saving Man Made Global Warming movement from transforming the world into the paradise of Eco Utopia.

    The failure of the MMGW movement to triumph couldn’t possibly be,

    [1] Incompetance: REF: http://www.amazon.com/Delinquent-Teenager-Mistaken-Climate-ebook/dp/B005UEVB8Q

    [2] Scientific Malpractice: REF: http://assassinationscience.com/climategate/

    [3] Failed Predictions: REF 1: http://www.c3headlines.com/predictionsforecasts/ and REF 2: http://landshape.org/enm/disproving-global-warming/ and REF 3: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/01/19/what-does-it-take-to-be-a-science-expert/

    and [4] Co-option of the Environmental Movement: REF: http://thegwpf.org/opinion-pros-a-cons/2185-patrick-moore-confessions-of-a-greenpeace-founder.html

    I could go on – but the analysis of failure begins with looking in the mirror.


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    ExWarmist

    Being both an athiest, and scientifically and technically trained, I would not welcome my “kids taught Creationism and Flat Earth nonsenses?” – however, different versions of religion are one thing – science is supposed to something else – something that is capable of questioning basic assumptions.

    So Maxine, in your B.Sc – did they address the questioning of assumptions and the value of having a sceptical frame of mind, of relying on empirical, testable, and independently repeatable evidence? or Not?


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    Bob Malloy

    ExWarmist:

    Thanks for that, i’t saves me wasting my time on Maxine.


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    Rereke Whakaaro

    I want my kids to be taught all sides of every question, and I want them to be free to make up their own minds based on the actual evidence.

    I would even want my kids to be taught about phrenology; a science that was widely accepted at one time in the history of science.

    In fact, when you think about it, phrenology has a lot in common with Climate Science – both have or had adherents who were totally convinced of their correctness, and both had a cadre of sceptics whom the believers tried to vilify.

    Funny how history tends to repeat, when it ceases to be taught properly (including the failures along with the successes) in schools and universities.


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    ExWarmist

    Rereke Whakaaro
    June 9, 2012 at 9:07 pm

    I would love to have my kids taught the many things that people belive, both now and in the past. It’s a great opportunity to learn humility of knowledge, that certainty is fragile and can be easily overturned by events.


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    ExWarmist

    Maxine – the future will shock you. You truely have no understanding of what is happening in the world – especially in the world of finance – and are going to be blindsided by events as the current monetary system unravels.

    To free yourself from the matrix of lies that holds you, – you must first question, and really and determinedly question the core beliefs that you hold as sacred truths.

    It is there that you will find the lies that bind you.

    Expect the process to be painful and to take time.

    Yours sincerly, ExWarmist


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    Rereke Whakaaro

    Ahh,

    It would appear that Maxine holds a Bachelors Degree in Political Science.

    Also, the language patterns Maxine uses are not consistent across all of her comments. Hmm, is Maxine more than one person? Could Maxine be a team, do you suppose?

    Just curious.


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    David, UK

    Maxine, pleeease stop making a fool out of yourself, I’m embarrassed for you! You must realise you don’t create wealth simply by raising taxes to pay for non-productive jobs. Have you learned nothing from Spain’s disastrous example? Have you not heard that for every tax-funded Green job that is miraculously “created,” two or three jobs in the private sector are lost? Wealth is created from production, Maxine. It is the production of desirable goods and services that enrich our lives and enrich the economy, those things that free people are willing to exchange their hard-earned in exchange for.

    Have you not heard of the Broken Window Fallacy? Please look it up – it’s dead simple and will explain in seconds why “stimulating the economy” by hitting people with taxes to pay for Green (or any non-productive) jobs is bullshit. I mean, lets all go around dropping litter and “create” a few more jobs for refuse workers. That ought to stimulate the economy, no? Jeez, this is seriously primary school stuff, and you don’t seem to have a clue. Whether you think the Green jobs in themselves are useful or not is a separate issue – but don’t fool yourself that they are actually good for the economy. They are paid for by you and me.


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    ExWarmist

    What is the specific evidence that you have that

    [1] the globe is warming?

    [2] there are melting methane clathrates in the Arctic?

    and

    [3] that melting methane clathrates in the Arctic will accelerate global warming?

    You have a B.Sc, could you point to the specific, peer reviewed papers that support your arguments – I’m getting famished for the lack of Meat in your statements.


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    ExWarmist

    The MSM that fated the fraud Mockton etc?

    The globe is warming, the melting methane clathrates in the Arctic are going to accelerate it.

    Lets examine the business model of the MSM before we judge them.

    There are two MSMs, those who belong to the commercial media and those who belong to the Government media, lets address each in turn.

    [1] Commercial Media Business Model.

    The commercial media earn money by selling advertising space. The value of the advertising space is dependent on ratings. To get high ratings, the commercial media must first (1) attract an audience, and then secondly (2) hold the attention of the audience long enough to pass the advertising slots in front of the audience.

    And that is it. So whatever media content that is most likely to attract and hold attention for long enough at the least cost of production will be favoured over other forms of media content. (Reality TV with unpaid actors anyone…).

    No where in this business model is there any obligation to determine what the facts are and to tell the truth (apart from the defamation laws).

    [2] Government Media Business Model.

    The government media earn money (acquire budgets) by pleasing the senior career executive bureaucrats that dominate the functioning of the Government Apparatus. Pleasing is done by conformity to government (as opposed to political – don’t confuse the politicians with the Senior Executive Service) policy, and by being an effective propaganda arm for the Government as a distinct and self determining organisation.

    As with the commercial MSM, no where in this business model is there any obligation to determine what the facts are and to tell the truth (apart from the defamation laws).

    So Maxine, why trust the MSM (either Government or Commercial) on anything of any consequence?


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    ExWarmist

    Hi Maxine,

    If Jo has spun the case to make it appear a certain way (as you assert) could you please enlighten us with a blow by blow dissection of how the case “did in fact” progress from start to finish.

    Surely someone with a fine, logical, and analytical mind such as youself, who has done the hard yards, and progressed thorough a B.Sc degree at Adelaide University will be able to blow holes a mile wide in the (as you imply) thin tissue of misinformation that Jo has apparently spun about this case.

    Please – I would really like to see the insight and rock solid, “smoking gun” evidence that you will bring to the analysis.

    Don’t hold back – give it your best shot!


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    Ian Hill

    Sorry Jo, I don’t know exactly as I don’t keep stats on these things, but the impression I have is around 130.

    The call I made about Matt Bennett’s heartless, insensitive and absurd comment (saying Matt Thompson said it purely for the sake of his business) was a dead cert. I wouldn’t have got any takers down at the pub if I wanted to get people to bet against Brooksey’s record falling.


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    Brian of Moorabbin

    If I put the limit at 200 thumbs down, is that enough?

    As at 9.30am 11 June, Matt Bennett’s comment is running at 194 ‘thumbs down’. I think the limit needs to be a little more than 200, or something might break again.

    500 might seem excessive, but I sincerely doubt anyone could get to that point (either up or down).


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    MadJak

    So Maxine,

    So how much did getup get in funding from the Union Movement? I hear it was more than Thomson got to settle his defamation claim loss

    Gee this Union/ALP gravy train seems pretty darn sweet.

    Correct me if I am wrong here, but isn’t that Anna Wotsername from the australian youth climate commission in some way related to Getup? Husband and wife maybe?

    I wonder who she started the Australian climate commission with? ANy ideas?


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    Wayne, s. Job

    Another negative feed back where warm water is directed to the poles by ENSO. This dumps a lot of heat. Maxine those little critters sequestered the odd few ton of CO2 in their bloom, another negative feed back.

    I was looking forward to warming and Greenland being green again, sadly all indicators are pointing to a cooling world. A La Nina dominated decade or two with the sun in a funk does not a warming future make.

    Maxine your university education obviously did not include history or you might have noticed that it has been warmer than now in our historic past.


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    memoryvault

    .
    Maxine,

    Here is a link to an article about the nuclear submarine U.S.S Skate surfacing at the North Pole in 1958.

    http://www.ihatethemedia.com/photo-north-pole-submarine

    Now, I appreciate reading all those words might be a bit taxing for you, Maxine, so instead, I’d ask you to just look at the pretty picture. So, what do you see, Maxine? Or, to be more precise, what DON’T you see?

    That’s right, Maxine, there’s NO ICE. The North Pole was ice free in the summer of 1958. Perhaps you’d like to pass that little snippet of information onto Dr Arrigo before he wastes anymore taxpayer’s money re-inventing the wheel.

    .
    Oh, by the way, just for the record, this year spring is running LATE in the Arctic, AND in the UK, and a lot of other places.

    Meanwhile, winter snow arrived a month EARLY here in OZ, AND South America.

    I know, I know, mere “facts”, and we can’t have mere facts getting in the way of your ill-informed, totally BS quasi-religious dogma rant, can we Maxine?

    .
    “The ice is thinning”, the polar bears are drowning, it’s getting warmer, and the sky is falling, and it’s even worse than we first thought”, squawked Chicken Little Maxine.

    .
    Trouble was, it wasn’t


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    Ross

    Maxine

    Have you read Bork et al 2012 ?
    Here is a report on it

    http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2012/06/04/historical-imagery-of-greenland-glaciers-lessens-sea-level-rise-alarm/

    BTW Since you are into the science are you up to date on what has happened with the Gergis et al 2012 paper.? Just shows peer review isn’t what it use to be !!


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    Bulldust

    Ultimately the problem lies with the bureacracy. The politicians make the laws and regulations, they don’t enforce them. It is DEC that has to shoulder the blame for the woeful handling of the Thompson’s case. Sure politicans could intervene at the eleventh hour if they felt motivated enough to do so, but clearly there was no interest in the Thompson’s case at the political level. I suppose they perceived no votes to be won by acting.

    When you think about the nature of DEC, it would be fair to assume that many of the people employed there have the protection of the environment as a fundamental paradigm that rules their lives. It is not a stretch of the imagination to assume that many of them will be of the Green political mindset. It is therefore not a stretch to assume they can willfully stretch the regulations to suit that paradigm. It is the nature of the beast.

    Politicans do not gain many votes by fighting that beast… sad but true. The real worry is that the current and future generations are indoctrinated with Green fables by the time they get jobs. The schools and universities are where the real damage is done. Being realistic, I can only see environmental regulation becoming ever more stringent in the future. The damage is being done by teachers that spoonfeed the pap they don’t even understand themselves. As a former educator I find this particularly disturbing.


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    Yep the temperature during an interglacial seems to rise and fall by a few degrees. Why is this surprising to people like Maxine?
    Nice to see another Zerohedge fan


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    ExWarmist

    Thanks Mike,

    Yes I have been into Zerohedge since 2009, it’s definently the “red pill”.


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    Andrew McRae

    Tyler for president.


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    You aren’t making any sense. Put down the bong.


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    Kevin Moore

    Linda

    Instead of seeking justice in the oppressors courts, learn the systems techniques and what it is that the system doesn’t want you to know – knowledge is power.

    For whatever reason when I put the actual websites addresses, and click post comment, the post ends up in cyberspace so I’ve just given the name of the sites this time.

    Basic Fraud.com – Love for life.com.au – The Crow House.com “Lessons in Trust Law – Dean Clifford.


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    warcroft

    Thats right. The price of coal power has been (massively) artificially inflated to make it seem like renewable sources are a more attractive alternative and to force people to make the switch.


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    Maxine,

    this is in response to numerous short one liners carpet bombed throughout this Post.

    You really have not even bothered to find out the facts when you say in your simple one liner:

    Coal is no longer that cheap.

    Currently, coal fired power sells its power to providers at a price that equates to 3 cents per KWH. Only one form of power generation is cheaper than that, Nuclear power Generation, and in some places in the U.S. they sell their power to providers at 1.6 cents per KWH.

    Coal fired power IS so cheap because those large scale plants can actually run huge generators on a 24/7/365 basis and supply monumentally huge amounts of power. They have a minimum life span of 50 years which can be extended even further, hence, because of that, they can sell their power cheaper, even after all costs are taken into account, including the ongoing cost of the fuel, the coal itself.

    That’s at 3 cents per KWH.

    Renewable Power generates its power at a boutique level, considerably less ( and here by a huge amount less) than coal fired power. They also can only provide their power on a sporadic time basis, and these plants, at the absolute best, only have a life span of 25 years, full stop. Because of that, their power they do generate has to be recovered over the shortened life of the plant.

    To that end, they HAVE to charge a price enough to actually cover all their costs in that time. That power costs on average seven to ten times (and even higher) the cost of coal fired power.

    This takes that power (at the wholesale price) they sell to the provider up to between 21 and 30 cents per KWH.

    Electricity is sold to consumer at an average of 20 cents per KWH, and that’s the most expensive, the residential sector, because it is sold even cheaper than that to the Commerce sector, and even cheaper again to the Industrial sector.

    As is now plain, renewable power costs more to actually generate than what they can sell it at retail to consumers.

    To that end, even after considerable subsidies at the construction phase, usually half the total cost, provided by both federal and State Governments, the contract is covered so that both federal and State Governments will further subsidise the sale of electricity to retail providers, usually amounting to half the unit cost of the electricity they do provide.

    What this seems to do is to artificially bring down the cost of electricity to around 10 to 15 cents per KWH, and the remainder is paid to the generating entity by both Governments, still three to five times as expensive as coal fired power.

    Still, even so, retail providers would not voluntarily purchase renewable because it cuts their profit margin, and even you must understand that the provision of electricity is not an altruistic thing.

    What is plain to see, crystal clear, transparent, obviously plain to see, is that with ever increasing numbers of any form of renewable power being put in place, it can only drive UP the cost of electricity.

    If these renewable plants had to compete without Government assistance, they would never even get off the ground.

    They can do everything they can think of to try and drive up the cost of coal fired power, regulations, draconian measures, ephemeral dreams of a patently unobtainable CCS, CO2 taxes, tiny investments (literally) in a supposed Clean Energy Future, and all the crap they attempt, those renewables will NEVER produce power as cheaply as coal fired power.

    So when you say, Maxine, the simple one liners you have here, this is not from an actual knowledge base.

    It’s nothing but uninformed bald faced lies.

    Maxine, you’ve been had.

    Tony.


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    That feedback might have been good but with methane roaring out of melting clathrates way too little: the Arctic ice is still melting afterall.


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    The Arctic ice is melting due AGW. As dark ocean is exposed it absorbs the suns heat rather than reflecting it like ice. Gulfstream doesn’t reach the Arctic.


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    warcroft

    As I said above. . . the price of coal has been artificially inflated to make solar seem competitive.


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    Sonny

    Maxine, I think you should reconsider posting on this site. Your comments are full of sentence fragments and poor grammar. (Starting sentences with “because”?) This doesn’t in itself mean that what you write is wrong but for someone on the fence about CAGW they are more likely to be persuaded from someone who writes intelligent, well articulated and factually supported arguments (eg TonyFromOz) than someone like yourself who uses childish one liners.

    You claim to have a Bachelor of Science? I don’t believe you.


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    Study the science not gossip and weird conspiracy theories I would suggest.


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    That is how science works. A series has to be detrended, then we see how it goes. Scientific skepticism, empirical confirmation, all that. As against krank science.


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    MadJak

    Sure and you’re just all about the science aren’t you maxine?

    Doesn’t look like a conspiracy theory at all does it maxine?”>

    “Rose lives in Sydney with her husband Simon Sheikh, National Director of online advocacy organisation GetUp!”

    Oh, that’s right, anything that doesn’t support your view etc must be a conspiracy theory…. I geddit.

    I was only looking for confirmation from the source, but hey, what would you know about sources anyways. You’re just a Union Movement puppet.


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    Pat

    Does CO2 trap/amplify heating of the surface (Given the fact there is no such thing as an actual *surface* temperature)?


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    memoryvault

    That is how science works

    A published, fully peer-reviewed paper – reviewed by none other than “Australia’s leading Climatologist” (according to Wikipedia no less) and IPCC Lead Author, Dr David Karoly – is found – within a couple of days of publication, to contain a statistical methodology error that would get a “FAIL” mark at high school level.

    Did I mention the error was discovered by a high school student?

    .
    And let’s not forget the highly selective process of cherry-picking which proxy series to use – only incorporating those series which matched the desired end-result. Or the fact that Ms Gergis (can’t bring myself to use the term Dr) managed to pull a Mann blunder and use one of her data sets upside down.

    That’s not how “science” works, Maxine, it’s how “climate science” works.
    Please stop confusing the two.

    .
    To help you understand the difference between “real” science and “climate” science, here is a short clip of a “real” scientist explaining “real” science:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b240PGCMwV0

    And, for comparison, here’s a group of “climate scientists” (including Ms Gergis, I believe), explaining what they do:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiYZxOlCN10

    Did you spot the difference, Maxine?


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    Debbie

    Hey Maxine,
    I think you have confused the difference between science, statistics and projective modelling. They’re different disciplines you know. Science isn’t the only profession that uses the other two.
    Political lobbyists, advocacy groups, economists, insurers, educators and a plethora of others use statistics and projective modelling. We’re all fully aware how open to abuse they are.
    If you’re prepared to torture figures for long enough they will admit to anything.


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    Pat

    Krank science of the Jones, Mann, Hasen, Briffa variety? Phil “I lost all the raw data we had in an office move in the 90′s, so we made the rest up” Jones, or the Kieth “YAD061 is proof of AGW” Briffa eh? Tell me again, what qualifications in any science related subjects do the likes of Al “I invented the internet and much of my wealth was derived from oil and coal” Gore and Ross “I helped the PNG Govn’t in the 70′s relase land for mining. I was also on the board for a gold/copper mines there too” garnout have? Thats right, NONE!


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    Bob Malloy

    Again Tony, your explanations are informative and easy to follow. However I believe wasted on Maxine, more the pity.


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    ExWarmist

    Hi Tony,

    I have read many of your posts and they have much to recommend them.

    [1] You speak from direct experience.

    [2] Your facts are measured, quantified and independently verifiable.

    [3] You demonstrate logic and reason.

    [4] You express yourself in clear and actionable language.

    BTW: This applies to many of the commenters here

    (…mancrush much…)


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    Bob Malloy

    warcroft.

    As I just said to Tony, I fear your wasting your time, this particula feline is blinkered, refusing to admit the light of reason.


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    Bob Malloy

    What is the specific evidence that you have that

    Previously asked, still unanswered.


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    Juliar

    Again, you make some ridiculous assumptions about myself which you have little evidence to support your assumptions.

    Firstly, Andrew Bolt hardly treats Politics like a football match where he barracks for the one side. He has been critical of the Federal Liberal Party on numerous fronts such as their “Direct Action Plan” Again, why do you assume that I treat Politics like a Football match and barrack for my ‘team’? If you read my Twitter page, I have been critical of the Victorian Liberal Party’s choices on what they are doing TAFE colleges, Myki and how they treated Nurses. I have also been critical of the Federal Liberal Party’s policies such as Work Choices, on the environment and how they have no strong policy to slow overall immigration down so infrastructure can catch up. So you are completely wrong on that point.

    Secondly, some examples for you on the Baillieu Government.
    http://www.theage.com.au/environment/energy-smart/green-rating-backflip-20120415-1x1u5.html
    http://www.theage.com.au/environment/baillieu-reviews-green-laws-20120311-1usn0.html
    http://www.theage.com.au/environment/timber-gets-longterm-commitment-20111213-1ot7w.html
    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/carbon-target-scrapped-20120326-1vust.html
    http://www.theage.com.au/environment/energy-smart/tariff-cuts-eclipse-household-solar-panel-benefits-20111016-1lrlt.html

    There are some other ones for you as well.

    Newman has also shown a strong support for the Coal industry , see here > http://www.theage.com.au/environment/newman-can-do-climate-science-denial-20120607-1zxh8.html
    …and has got rid of this amongst other things http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/lnp-to-slash-real-estate-red-tape/story-e6freoof-1226322378579

    There is actually an LNP politician who has recently spoken against the CAGW doctrine, read here> http://thegwpf.org/international-news/5878-climate-sceptisim-the-new-populism-and-vote-winner.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    I am not saying the Liberal Party are perfect on this front, but they are better than most other parties. It is amusing that you imply, that a UK court ruling that calls “An Inconvenient Truth” propaganda is a declaration of against the CAGW doctrine when many conservative Politicians (not judges) in the UK have been proponents of wind farms in the UK.


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    ExWarmist

    Hi Maxine, you say,

    and the surplus budgets

    As if it is a certainty.

    The current world financial system is fragile and brittle, the potential fo government surpluses at this point of time is virtually nil.

    For system risk ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb and other works – to summarise, the processes of central planning that are so popular with governments throughout the world do not minimise risk – they suppress risk for a time, – until it erupts in major social and economic dislocations.

    Please educate yourself, and above all question what you believe.


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    Andrew McRae

    On matters presidential, Lord Monckton has written a 20 page briefing on why Obama was not qualified to take office because he was not born in the USA.

    Ah yes, the Land of Opportunity and the American Dream. It’s a land of opportunity because quite literally anybody can become president (even alien puppets) and it’s called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.


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    Rereke Whakaaro

    You wouldn’t care to give us a more specific reference, would you?

    Firstly, this is an US site, and last time I looked, American jurisprudence did not extend to Australia (although with the Megaupload fiasco, US Federal law may extend into New Zealand, on the basis of precedent); and

    Secondly, it is difficult to see how the site is supposed to work in answering specific questions.


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    Rereke Whakaaro

    Manfred,

    For the record, NIWA and the Meteorological Service are two distinct organisations.

    The “Meteorological Service of New Zealand Ltd (MetService) provides weather forecasts and related information presentation services to national and international customers. MetService supplies customised weather forecasts on a commercial basis across a range of industries, including the media, aviation and energy sectors.”

    I don’t think they are being sued for getting the weather forecasts wrong – they rarely get them right, so there is considerable precedent to be overcome.

    “NIWA, the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research, is a Crown Research Institute established in 1992. It operates as a stand-alone company with its own Board of Directors and Executive.”

    NiWA have accepted, in principle, that the temperature readings they were using in relation to long-term climate prediction contain some erroneous adjustments, thereby invalidating their previous position on climate change. I am informed that they have withdrawn their previous statements on climate change, and are no longer being sued.

    Maxine,

    It now appears that we have scientific confirmation that there is no CAGW in New Zealand. We are still awaiting the political confirmation, and expect it any day now. /sarc


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    Rereke Whakaaro

    Well, at least we have established that Maxine’s BSc is not in Biology or Biochemistry.


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    Rereke Whakaaro

    And I feel like Sancho.


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    Rereke Whakaaro

    Maxine,

    You go on about the Arctic, and why not. All those nice polar bears dying and stuff, and the sea lions not being able to find an ice flow to have a rest on …

    But what about the Antarctic? What about the increase in sea ice in the Antarctic, meaning that the penguins have to travel considerably further from their nesting sites (which are on land) to get to open sea water, where they can feed?


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    Pat

    Medievil Warm Period. Roman Warm Period. Period.


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    Pat

    Tell me again, how much methane is in the air right now, how much will there be after the ice melts and how much warming will methane be responsible for?


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    ExWarmist

    Hi Rereke – shall we start a book on what Maxines B.Sc is actually in.

    I suspect that it is not Geology as she has already firmly dissed Plimer. You have pointed out that she probably fails to understand Biology or Biochemistry.

    From REF: http://www.sciences.adelaide.edu.au/programs/ for the current programs (and in fairness Maxine may have completed her degree many years ago when the entries were different)

    We have
    Bachelor of Science (Animal Science) B.Sc (AS)
    Bachelor of Science (Pre-Veterinary) B.Sc (PV)
    Bachelor of Science (Biomedical Science) B.Sc (BioS)
    Bachelor of Science (Biotechnology) B.Sc (Biot)
    Bachelor of Science (EcoChemistry) B.Sc (EcoC)
    Bachelor of Science (Evolutionary Biology) B.Sc (EvoB)
    Bachelor of Science (Marine Biology) B.Sc (MB)
    Bachelor of Science (Mineral Geoscience) B.Sc (MiGe)
    Bachelor of Science (Molecular Biology) B.Sc (MolB)
    Bachelor of Science (Molecular and Drug Design) B.Sc (M&DD)
    Bachelor of Science (Nanoscience & Materials) B.Sc (NScM)
    Bachelor of Science (Natural Resources) B.Sc (NR)
    Bachelor of Science (Laser Physics & Techonology) B.Sc (LP&T)
    Bachelor of Science (Petroleum Geoscience) B.Sc (PG)
    Bachelor of Science (Space Sc & Astrophysics) B.Sc (SSAP)

    Perhaps we have a winner?

    But even this degree appears to have some real science content???


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    ExWarmist

    Hi Wayne,

    Got a link please – let’s keep the conversation accountable, it will be both more effective and more fun.


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    ExWarmist

    You claim to have a Bachelor of Science? I don’t believe you.

    Hi Sonny,

    I also have my doubts about Maxines B.Sc – but then I’m a sceptic…


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    Ian Hill

    I don’t think the photo proves anything. I went to the North Pole in July 2008 on a Russian Icebreaker and while there was lots of ice around there were also parts of open water like that shown in the photo. We were given the opportunity to have a swim at the Pole, in a small “pool” created by the ship, and naturally I had to do it, but not for very long mind you!


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    Bungalow Bill

    MV, you should read this:

    http://www.navalhistory.org/2011/08/11/uss-skate-ssn-578-becomes-the-first-submarine-to-surface-at-the-north-pole/

    They surfaced through a polynya, a small area free of ice. These are quite common and appear and vanish quickly as the ice moves.

    The sail was later reinforced to enable it to punch through thin ice, that is recently frozen over leads or polynyas.

    The commander James F Calvert had confirmed the above in his book.

    Sadly MV, these are the facts, and we can’t have mere facts getting in the way of your ill-informed, totally BS quasi-religious dogma rant, can we.

    Cheers.


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    Peter Miller

    There are obviously two species of old farts, those which are: i) useful, rational and reasonable, and 11) those which are self-opinionated, irrational ans unreasonable. It is self-evident you are one of the former.


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    Bulldust, thank you. We appreciate who you are and all you’ve done to advance truth. It’s been an absolute pleasure knowing you. You’re welcome at our place any time.


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    Val, it would be a pleasure. We feel like many of you are family, and would love to stay in touch. Thank you.


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    Jim, the Thompsons did best practice wherever they could. The DEC could not make any better suggestions. Their nearest neighbours thought it was fine. Yes, farms can smell, but they have to be somewhere, and the Govt shouldn’t have approved the site if best practice is not good enough.

    And some of the people who complained had moved into the area after the farm started, and nearly all of them were moving near a piggery that was well established before they were.


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    Jim, it is much worse than

    I am sorry to see the Thompsons lose all that investment, in time,effort and money.

    Us losing our lives savings and 10 years of our prime working lives is pretty bad, but it should not be oversimplified.

    Many good people lost money (some to the point of severe pain) because of our situation.

    Many good employees lost jobs that they liked and that paid well.

    Many good suppliers (local farmers, truckies, pump salesmen, reticulation specialists, pharmaceutical reps, etc.) lost a market. To the tune of $10 million per year in total.

    Worst of all, our friend Lindley took his own life.

    I say all of this not to gain sympathy, but to highlight the fact that people are not immune…cannot escape…the ripple effects of cases like ours. If a person closes his eyes to the writing on the wall in his family, community, state, nation and/or world, that does not mean that he will not be affected by the consequences.

    I just finished a book “Left to Tell” by Immaculee Ilibagiza, in which she relates some of the horrors of the Rwandan genocide of 1994 when the majority Hutus went on a killing spree that is estimated to have extinguished the lives of a million Tutsis. She relates how her very smart and educated father kept telling himself and his immediate family that everything would be alright. History seems bound to repeat itself because “normal” people are convinced that it can’t happen here…to me…now. We’re too civilised and advanced.

    The trampling of individual rights such as freedom of speech is pretty bold writing on the wall.

    Cheers,
    Janet


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    Kevin Moore

    The real Maxine I discovered from past ripostes, loves her home brew – not the store bought stuff, and loves stirring the pot. She is more than likely a member of the WA Home Brewers Society.


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    Rereke Whakaaro

    OMG! The WA Home Brewers? We are up against some serious Special Farces here :-)


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    Manfred

    RW, thank you for the correction – my error entirely. The hiatus of the moment is on occasions, a distraction.


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    Michael, I don’t think that you read that we think that. We have stated on numerous occasions that productive people around the world face the same fundamental problems.

    We chose to move back to the USA to be within driving distance of our families. We will fight the idiocy wherever we happen to be. There is no last frontier…no “new world” to which to escape.

    I am well aware of the taxi driver issue in DC and other issues highlighted brilliantly by John Stossel, et al. And we must not take for granted that any political party is going to do the right thing. Regardless of which side of the aisle a politician sits on, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance (by the people).

    Keep on keeping on. If enough of us hold their feet to the fire, we’re bound to end up with something better than what we have awakened to.

    Cheers,
    Janet


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    Dennis

    Home science maybe?


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    Dennis

    If they cannot be convinced to believe then they must be controlled and forced to accept.


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    memoryvault

    .
    Bungalow Bill

    You are being deliberately obtuse. Here is the quote from Maxine’s original post:

    “Decades ago, there would have been thick multiyear ice in this area, maybe 3 meters thick — 9 to 10 feet,” Arrigo said. “No way there would have been sunlight getting through ice that thick to have a bloom like this.”

    The actual photo however – taken “decades ago” shows nothing remotely like “(ice) 3 metres thick”, as claimed in the quote. Here is a link to an article which includes another photo of the U.S.S Skate surfaced up near the North Pole, this time in 1959.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/04/26/ice-at-the-north-pole-in-1958-not-so-thick/

    As can clearly be seen, while there is “ice”, it is at most less than a foot thick, again far short of Dr Arrigo’s “3 metres thick”.

    And yes, both photos are probably taken with the subs in polynyas. But Arrigo’s claim is that the ice “was 3 metres thick in the past, and is now less than a metre thick” (stated further down in the original article).

    The original photo establishes that this claim is complete BS. The photo clearly demonstrates that “decades” ago the ice wasn’t always 3 metres thick as implied, but rather, was subject to thinning to the same levels Arrigo notes as “unprecedented” today.

    The whole point of Maxine’s post was to try and validate a claim that what has recently happened in the Arctic Circle is somehow “unprecedented” and will lead to the release of massive amounts of methane from clathrates, thereby destroying all life as we know it – again (a familiar meme amongst you cultists).

    The whole point of my post was to demonstrate – successfully – that there have been periods of similarly “thin ice” in the past, and the world didn’t end.


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    Sonny

    Sometimes I think Maxine is actually a sceptic pretending to be an alarmist to make the alarmists look stupid. It’s the only explanation that makes sense!


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    Hi RW, good questions….the reason this method works is because it operates in the Private and not the Public, hence it doesn’t matter where you are. The process is straightforward:

    1) Run a 3 step administrative process in the Private on the DEC/individuals at the DEC (liablees)
    2) Use a notary to obtain a foreign judgement as part of the 3 step process
    3) Open a civil case to claim damages using the default foreign judgement. The judge presiding must take into consideration the foreign judgement.

    Since individuals at the DEC allegedly admitted to wrongdoing and thus created a loss and/or damage then this controversy needs to be rectified. I will presume that there are a number of issues with the Thompsons case that are deemed to be inappropriate, misleading and possibly fraudulent by individuals at the DEC and thus were possibly directly responsible for any losses to the Thompsons.

    The key is to obtain a foreign judgment. Don’t use a lawyer since they operate in the Public. It’s all about contracts. Statues and ACTs are contracts for your public person.

    This whole process is discussed in detail at creditorsincommerce.com in the workshops link. Listen to the Boston workshop. All materials are at the said link as well. No cost

    Contact Gordon on his Monday night call – anyone can dial in.

    I’ve successfully used some of this process already in Australia to rectify a controversy, and will run a administrative process on the department of climate change.

    Maxim of Law: The Contract is the Law


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    Bungalow Bill

    MV,

    Firstly, I am not concerned with what Maxine or Dr Arrigo said. I was referring to your statement that the North Pole was ice free during the summer of 1958. As I pointed out to you, evidence from the Commander of the vessel indicates the USS Skate surfaced in a small polynya. The photograph you refer to, according to reliable sources is of that event, though some doubt has been raised as to the exact location.

    The USS Skate did surface at the North Pole on 17 March 1959, through a recently refrozen lead. In both cases reports indicate they were surrounded by thick sea ice.

    Hardly the ice free North Pole you claim.

    Here is an excerpt from the article I linked to:

    “The submarine’s black hull stood out in stark relief against the deep blue of the calm lake in which the ship now floated. Beyond the lake, stretching to the horizon in every direction, was the stark white of the permanent polar ice pack. The officer who had climbed to the bridge with Calvert called the skipper’s attention to the port side of the ship. There a full grown polar bear was climbing slowly out of the water and up onto the ice.”

    Clearly you are confusing polynya and recently frozen leads with permanent ice.

    Let’s remind you of your statement above :

    “That’s right, Maxine, there’s NO ICE. The North Pole was ice free in the summer of 1958.“

    Now you are saying there were periods of “thin ice”.

    So in the just over 24 hours you have gone from “no ice” to “thin ice”.

    Is there anything else on which you would like to change your mind?

    And there is nothing obtuse in anything I’ve posted.

    Cheers.


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    Ian Hill

    And yes, both photos are probably taken with the subs in polynyas. But Arrigo’s claim is that the ice “was 3 metres thick in the past, and is now less than a metre thick” (stated further down in the original article).

    Excuse me for butting in, but in July 2008 the ice on the Arctic Ocean was definitely more than a metre thick and sometimes up to three metres thick. I took a lot of video of the icebreaker cutting through it. In the really thick stuff the icebreaker had to glide on top of it and break it with its weight. It made for an interesting dinner session one time as this was happening.


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    See Mr Fish, I’ll treat your name with respect when you provide it.

    Sounds to me like you have no intention of reading the evidence yourself.
    http://joannenova.com.au/2012/2010/07/smell-that-evidence/
    http://joannenova.com.au/2012/2010/09/thompsons-part-5-community-support/

    Looks like the grandstanding is all your own. I’ve been to the farm, met the neighbours, talked to people in the town. I’ve read the emails and the DEC minutes. You have… mouthed off?


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    Dave

    .
    Ms. Fishy,

    So how does a carbon tax, not to be on agricultural emissions

    So there is no impact of a CO2 Tax on agriculture? Wrong Ms. Fishy:

    1. Agriculture at this stage is exempt from the ‘Output’ emissions but not ‘Input’.
    2. Increase in cost of machinery – capital, repairs & maintenance.
    3. Increase in the cost all essential steel, concrete and other building materials.
    4. Increase in the cost of electricity.
    5. Increase in the cost of essential normal farm supplies – fertilizers, containers etc.
    6. Increase in the cost of essential road and rail freight both for incoming and outgoing.
    7. Increase in the cost of Statutory Council Rates.
    8. Increase in the cost of registrations, permits, and statutory insurances.
    9. Increase in the cost of essential medical services & insurance and emergency services.
    10.Decrease in the market value of property and a reduction in equity and security value of your property at your bank.

    Your Mr. Combet retoric is the same old stuff reguritated every week by the CAGW crowd!

    Get down to a farm, property, dairy, small crop growers – anywhere on the land and tell them that the CO2 Tax is not going to affect them at all!

    If you can leave your desk that is!


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    Tel

    … raising children who know how to produce so that when the time comes, they will be able to do their part in rebuilding…

    It’s amazing how many people are talking in terms of what to do AFTER what’s coming, almost offhand.

    Best of luck to you and your family. I think Australia is doing OK, but yeah we could do better. Let’s be honest with ourselves, we are what we are and nothing much is going to change in the big picture.

    In the USA, hmmm, tough times ahead, I expect it will take you guys a while to reinvent yourselves, not quite sure how you are going to do that, but I’m sure it will work out in the end. Sorry it didn’t work out for you over here.


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    ExWarmist

    Hi Sounds Fishy,

    You keep going on about

    How has a yet to be implemented carbon tax, that won’t account for agricultural emissions impact this issue – it doesn’t.

    As if it is a central issue – The Thompson Affair has no connection to the Carbon tax.

    I repeat – no connection to the Carbon tax.

    Pretending that the Carbon tax is important in this context simply obfuscates the real issues of out of control government departments ruining peoples lives for no better reason than that they can.

    If you want to be taken seriously – please read the articles, one by one, in order, before coming back to comment.

    Yours sincerely, ExWarmist


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    Roy Hogue

    …or your ridiculous ratings system will dispense with my comment…

    Sam Geoghegan,

    I assure you that I’ve not ticked a thumbs down on you. I’ll just say my disapproval directly — you show yourself to be a jackass in all respects: biased, bigoted and selfish. I could easily add other things. Shall I go on?


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    Sounds fishy

    Proof of a tie up with anti-AGW beliefs is zero. As I said – someone having a run-in with a govt dept – UNHEARD OF !

    Are you honestly that gullible to let Nova to manipulate you on this emotional issue.

    Your underlying problem I would think is that your lack of basic thinking has brainwashed you to the extent that whenever the term AGW appears it triggers in you a hate filled emotional response making you irrational and thus causing you to abandon facts and logic in any argument that you may make.

    Logic, facts and analysis would lead you to think people are looking for scapegoats. Or doing a quick fit up.


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    Sounds fishy

    Oh excuse me – it was simply the post title that made me think it might have had some importance – Jo must have slipped off the keys on another post by mistake.

    Or maybe when we’re writing a piece – this blog says “This isn’t the title”, “This title is a diversion”


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    Kevin Moore

    There is no Australian carbon tax on agricultural emissions – currently, but they are working on it -

    Seminar / presentation: Carbon Farming – A Good News Story
    “Good for my business and good for the environment”

    Topics will include:

    •The way ahead – managing carbon in Wimmera farming systems (Andrew Weidemann President, VFF Grains Group)
    •Carbon farming opportunities (Harm van Rees, Consultant Cropfacts, Bendigo)
    •Capitalising on carbon – the key action areas (Graeme Anderson, DPI)
    •The Five Big Questions (exploring motivations for farming and decision making) (Chris Sounness, DPI)
    •Management of nitrogen inputs and losses from nitrous emissions (Ashley Wallace, DPI)
    •Managing soils for improved productivity and soil carbon (Chris Pittock, DPI)
    •Understanding and optimising livestock emissions (Jane Court, DPI)
    •Other carbon issues for livestock farmers (Graeme Anderson, DPI)
    When: Thursday 29th March 2012, 9:30am -3:00pm
    Where: Grains Innovation Park, DPI, Natimuk Rd, Horsham
    Cost: Free, including lunch, morning and afternoon tea.
    RSVP: by 27th March to Chris Pittock – Chris.Pittock@dpi.vic.gov.au or (03) 5362 2111

    See also the Climate Change departments manual – “Dairy Greenhouse gas Abatement Strategies [DGAS] Calculator”.


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    Rereke Whakaaro

    There is no Australian carbon tax on agricultural emissions. Fabricated nonsense.

    Well that is an interesting statement to make. Your first sentence should read, “There is currently no Australian carbon tax on agricultural emissions”.

    For one was originally proposed, and a hefty one at that.

    You see, I was involved in discussions around the original New Zealand Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS), which was designed to merge seamlessly with the then proposed Australian scheme. I remember there was much two way conversation across the Tasman on “getting it right” to protect other trans-Tasman agreements.

    At that time, it was recognised that neither country could meet its Kyoto commitments if agriculture was exempted. It was also recognised that including agriculture would have serious electoral implications. The proposed solution therefore was to bring in the ETS schemes, but “bring in an adjustment period” for agriculture, thus deferring it for a period.

    In the final event, the Australian Government (the Coalition, if memory serves) got cold feet electorally, and didn’t go ahead with the joint scheme, so New Zealand went it alone.

    The carbon tax is a new beast, but is still build on the old ETS, and will still have the requirement to include agriculture to meet Australia’s Kyoto commitments (which still must be important, for why else would a beleaguered government bring in a carbon tax at all?)

    So I suggest that your charge of “Fabricated nonsense” says more about your lack of facts behind the situation than is does about reality.


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    Sounds fishy

    Not necessarily – these initiatives mean better soil health, higher digestion efficiency in cattle, and reduced losses of expensive nitrogen fertilizer. You don’t think this research is useful for production? Indeed the Opposition’s climate strategy is to encourage such measures with no carbon tax.

    As I said there is no carbon tax on agricultural emissions. That’s not what this post says is it?


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    Sounds fishy

    Not “might have gone” in some hypothetical future.

    “It meant that even if we won in court, most of our efforts to profitably operate our business would have gone towards convincing some bureaucrat that we weren’t causing greenhouse gas emissions, when in fact we were”

    Their statement is simply not correct. The intent is quite explicit. And its wrong.

    A major that the reason agriculture is exempted is that the accounting is simply too difficult.


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    Rereke Whakaaro

    Not “might have gone” in some hypothetical future.

    I am sorry, but I don’t understand the context for that statement. But aren’t all futures hypothetical?

    The statement you quote is itself a quote from Matt, I believe. One that presumably expressed his frustration in dealing with a Government Department that itself was not sure of which provisions would be included in the legislation and which would not. Remember, we are discussing this with the benefit of hindsight. At the time of that quote, the structure of the Climate Tax was still being defined.

    Their statement may well be incorrect from our current point of view in time, but now is now, and then was then, and we should try to avoid errors of temporal judgement.

    I agree that agricultural accounting is difficult, which is why both Australia and New Zealand effectively deferred its introduction until the agricultural sector had made the required adjustments. But neither country sought exemptions in their signing of the Kyoto protocols, so both countries are bound by those commitments. it is therefore reasonable to assume that they will be brought in at some stage.

    As I said before, the need for a Carbon Tax (or an Emissions Trading Scheme, in the case of New Zealand) is solely mandated by the Kyoto agreement.


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    ExWarmist

    I agree with that point – the ref to the Carbon tax shouldn’t be in the headline.

    The Carbon tax does not impact the story – the green tape definently does.


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    Kevin Moore

    A major that the reason agriculture is exempted is that the accounting is simply too difficult.

    The job has been done!

    http://www.dairyingfortomorrow.com/uploads/documents/DGASv1.4%20calculator%20Adviser%20version%20User%20Manual.pdf
    [Try http://www.dairyingfortomorrow.com/index.php?id=47 - Jo]

    CONTENTS PAGE
    Dairy Greenhouse gas Abatement Strategies (DGAS) calculator ……………………………… 2
    Purpose of Software ………………………………………………………………………………………….. 2
    Updates from version 1.2 …………………………………………………………………………………… 3
    System Requirements ……………………………………………………………………………………….. 6
    Enable macros …………………………………………………………………………………………………. 7
    Exiting DGAS …………………………………………………………………………………………………… 7
    Screen resolution ……………………………………………………………………………………………… 8
    Workbook View ………………………………………………………………………………………………… 8
    Introduction page …………………………………………………………………………………….. 9
    Input Sheets …………………………………………………………………………………………… 9
    Calculator Sheets ……………………………………………………………………………………. 9
    Output Sheets ……………………………………………………………………………………….. 10
    Structure of Software ……………………………………………………………………………………….. 10
    Navigation ……………………………………………………………………………………………………… 10
    Form Inputs and Controls …………………………………………………………………………………. 13
    Validation ……………………………………………………………………………………………… 13
    Tips and help ………………………………………………………………………………………… 14
    Reset button …………………………………………………………………………………………. 15
    Excel button ………………………………………………………………………………………….. 15
    Print results ………………………………………………………………………………………….. 15
    SAVE DGAS AS ……………………………………………………………………………………. 16
    DGAS User forms …………………………………………………………………………………………… 17
    Farm Inputs ………………………………………………………………………………………….. 17
    Herd Inputs …………………………………………………………………………………………… 29
    Economics ……………………………………………………………………………………………. 35
    Results ………………………………………………………………………………………………… 37
    Additional Abatement Strategies ………………………………………………………………. 40
    Acknowledgements and Licensing …………………………………………………………………….. 46
    Appendix 1: DGAS Adviser calculator data inputs ………………………………………. 47
    Appendix 2: Average dry matter %, dry matter digestibility and crude protein % figures for various feed sources ……………………………………………………………….. 52
    2


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    Kevin Moore

    damn it -

    Put an ‘e’ in adviser and the link might work.


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    Sounds fishy

    How quaintly southern dairy centric – try that with most the animals which are in northern Australia and a wide variety of extensive native pastures, unknown factors with soil carbon and their feedbacks, and not to mention a myriad of nitrogenous fertilizer implications in cropping.


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    ExWarmist

    Does the Kyoto agreement have a sunset clause – doesn’t it run out and is in need of a replacement.

    REF; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol

    Noting that the current commitment period ends this year – without a fresh commitment – what are the legal ramifications of ETSs.

    Thanks

    ExWarmist


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    Sounds fishy

    Indeed and perhaps but that’s not what the article implies,


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    Mr Fish, the carbon tax in the title and in Matt’s comments refers to all the legislation designed or proposed to reduce emissions of CO2. Matt and Janet had to make a call about the probability of their success in the case (which they still want to pursue) and also the value of running the farm if the case succeeds. The passage of the carbon tax legislation posed a risk to their profitability. They are not the only ones: “A director of Australia’s largest beef processing company says a carbon tax will add $8 million to its costs from July 1. (ABC News Nov 8th 2011) Matt and Janet know all too well that governments change rules all the time, and they referred to the “effort” of combating the bureaucracy as well as profitability.

    They don’t see Australia as a viable country to run a beef feedlot since the legislation passed. So technically, accurately, if the business owners feel that a carbon tax has ruined their business, then it has done just that. It’s a question of sovereign risk.

    If there weren’t billions of dollars resting on this, and it was merely a scientific curiosity, there would not be a culture of denouncing dissenters, calling people “deniers” and such efforts to make it hard for people to speak against it. It is obvious this is not just about “green tape”, but about current and future carbon tax legislation. The headline is accurate.


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    Kevin Moore

    Maybe the time of vengeance is not far away – Luke 21.


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    Craig Thomas

    “…, if the business owners feel that a carbon tax has ruined their business, then it has done just that…”

    Gosh, sounds like the kind of thing you find in leftie-nonsense about the so-called “Stolen Generation”.

    If the Thompsons mistakenly “feel” that a Carbon tax – at 1/3rd the economic effect of the GST – was going to prevent them from being in business, then the fault isn’t the Carbon Tax, which does nothing of the sort.
    The fault lies with individuals who mischievously prey on others’ ignorance by alarming them with misinformation about the Carbon Tax.

    The fact is that the Thompsons’ business failed well before any Carbon Tax came in (blame the Conspiracy or their own competence as you will, the difference here is immaterial), so blaming the Carbon Tax for their failure is inaccurate and misleading.

    ——————————–
    Good try Craig. But no banana. The Thompsons were so successful they were turning away business til the Dept of Env added 33 unworkable clauses. The thing that made them give up on the hope of fighting those clauses was the added burden of the Carbon tax legislation, which passed the week before they went to the US on holiday. Obviously it didn’t “cost them a cent” at that point because it wasnt enacted (yet) but real businessmen are forward looking. They do the sums. At that point, Australia became a package deal that was not worth fighting to stay with. – Jo


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    Craig Thomas

    “Kevin Moore
    June 11, 2012 at 4:09 pm · Reply
    Maybe the time of vengeance is not far away – Luke 21.”

    Nice one. What are you going to use? Truck full of anfo?


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