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Is this the beginning of the Euro-spring? the invisible revolution

From the Facebook page: Movimento-de-Forconi

During the last couple of weeks, truck-drivers in an advanced western region with 5 million people have blockaded roads and ports protesting at the sudden 40% rise in the fuel price (due to taxes) which is wiping out their business. The fishermen joined in, so did farmers. The area is heavily dependent on road transport, and was apparently paralyzed for days with fuel shortages, and empty supermarket shelves. On the internet, people are describing this as a middle class uprising, and on the verge of revolt. Can you name the location?

 …shades of a magna-carta type moment

Possibly not. The mainstream media are not describing this uprising at all … it’s o’ so unnewsworthy. And you can imagine that readers might not care if this were taking place in the back-reaches of Venezuela, the slums of Chad, or the dark corner of Uzbekistan. But it wasn’t. It’s was in the West, in Sicily. Who knew?

Word on the internet is that the middle class producers are rising up en masse. It’s  known as the ‘Movimento dei Forconi’ or ‘Pitchfork Movement’. Just like the The Convoy of No Confidence in Australia last August, it started with truck-drivers and farmers, and just like the Convoy, the media ignored it. Ultimately, the journalists are not on the same side as the working middle class.

There are shades of a magna-carta type moment.

These are some of their demands:

  • The arrest of all corrupt politicians.
  • To reduce the number of parliamentarians
  • To remove the provincial bureaucracy, as most of these politicians
    have been there for over forty years.
  • To drastically cut the salaries and privileges of parliamentarians
    and senators
  • To restrict politicians two only two terms in office

Alexander Jousse on Lew Rockwell writes:

After a hundred and fifty years the south is still suffering the effects of this occupation, but now the roles have been reversed; the wealth of the north is confiscated by Rome to bribe subsidise the corrupt politicians of the south. This is one of the reasons why Lega Nord is so popular in the North.

It will be interesting to see what happens next, as the protests are soon moving to Rome. This is not necessarily a positive move, as every political movement (eg. Lega Nord) that has gone onto Rome, has been bought off and betrayed their ideals. Over the past week, the establishment, including the unions have been deeply humiliated and lost a lot of credibility. There has been very little media coverage; the news still has to breach the international mainstream media (MSM) ‘Firewall’.

As Italy falls deeper into depression, the establishment will lose further credibility; regional movements such as the Forconi will multiply, putting further pressure on the State. This could well be the beginning of the end for the Italian state as Darth Monti’s taxes push more people unto the street.

Not surprisingly there are attempts to smear the movement, with baseless speculation that it is “linked” to the mafia, though there is no investigation underway, or evidence to speak of. Police confirm the “rumors” err… are real rumors, as if that is something the police ought to do.

(What happened to innocent until proven…?). See here:

Many people believe that fascists and mafia are behind and within the movement. There are those who ask the promoters of the protest to distance themselves from people linked to the crime who are seizing the moment to join the protest as victims to have a sort of control. Prosecutors in Palermo confirmed the possibility of such suspicious, but it is unknown whether there are already ongoing investigations. [Source]

What does it mean to confirm the possibility of a suspicion? Would that be nothing… or is it less?

Put on your thinking cap and try to imagine the Mafia putting “the arrest of corrupt politicians” at the top of their Christmas Wish List? As if.

 

More info:

Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Movimento-dei-Forconi/254645254561355

A blogger near Vernazza writes about the protests with UPDATES.

The Dollar Vigilante

UPDATE: One of the reasons Italy is in such a deep hole is its media

James Panichi, Italian writer, in The Australian writes about how the captain of the Costa Concordia was “presumed guilty” by the journalists from day one.

I would argue the Italian press is among the most unreliable and unprofessional in the West.

What few outsiders understand is that Italian journalism is dominated by a legally recognised corporation, the Ordine dei giornalisti. It’s a throwback to the fascist era guild of journalists, under which people who had not passed a state-run exam could not be employed as fully fledged journalists. Similar laws are in place today. The Ordine is by definition uncompetitive: it’s designed to curb the supply of journalists, thus protecting the state-sponsored perks they have come to expect (free gallery entry, discounted public transport, inflated pay).

And, like most of the medieval guilds that dominate and distort Italy’s economy, the Ordine is highly politicised and incapable of upholding professional standards. There may be exceptions, but the copy of most Italian journalists would not get past the most forgiving of subeditors in an English-speaking newsroom.

Italian journalism is unreliable, slanderous and sensationalist. There is no presumption of innocence: anyone accused of a crime is described as having done it. People are identified by their ethnicity; wrong articles are never corrected; names are misspelt. Prominent Italians have opinions attributed to them that they neither hold nor understand. The style of writing is opaque and wordy. There are virtually no women columnists working at the country’s top 20 newspapers. There’s also the tradition that has become synonymous with Italian reporting: virgolettare il pensiero, the quoting of a person’s thoughts: “I’m in a very tricky situation,” the prime minister thought.

The two largest mastheads, Corriere della Sera and La Repubblica, struggle to sell more than 600,000 copies a day – a pittance for a country of 60 million people. But market forces aren’t really the issue. The Italian government spends about $850 million a year to prop up newspapers. Some publications exist not to make money, but to generate employment through government funding.

It’s a symptom of a weak press, of low standards, of an industry that was  too conflicted to provide checks and balances for the government expenditure, and never strong enough to expose corruption. A nation without a real investigative media will collapse under it’s own cronyism. And so it has come to pass…

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139 comments to Is this the beginning of the Euro-spring? the invisible revolution

  • #
    Nick

    Not long now.

    We only need one more term or a touch more for some duristictions of the sorts of Governments that subsidise renewables, actually subsidise anything for that matter, engage in behaivour regulation and modification of the population via preasure and interest groups to bring on their innevitable collapse.

    Problem is, they’ll take us with it.

    But they wont get power back for a while, maybe a generation or 2.


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    Kevin Moore

    It all comes back to the private banks control of the worlds governments and their economies as well as their plutocratic agenda.

    The USA 1809 Debate Over The Recharter Of The Bank Bill.

    In 1809, in the Debate Over The Recharter Of The Bank Bill, Thomas Jefferson said, “I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies . . . If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] . . . will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered . . . The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.”

    http://somehelpfulhints/Articles/Running_us.htm


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    • #
      bananabender

      Jefferson was talking about he danger of private banks issuing their own banknotes not the US Mint.

      A banknote is nothing more than a pre-printed cheque issued by ankfor a fixed amount of money.


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        • #
          bananabender

          Let me guess – the Bilderbergers, the Masons and the Zionists?


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          Twodogs

          That would be the Federal Government. Obviously you are confusing it with the U.S. Federal Reserve, which is privately owned. But never let facts get in the way of a good story, such as the private big 4 banks refusing to follow the RBA on interest rates. After all, who needs evidence when false assertions are far more compelling?


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      • #
        Kevin Moore

        Federal Reserve Notes (FRNs) are unsigned checks written on a closed
        account. FRNs are an inflatable paper system designed to create debt through
        inflation (devaluation of currency).

        Inflation is an invisible form of taxation that irresponsible governments
        inflict on their citizens.

        The Federal Reserve Bank who controls the supply and movement of FRNs has everybody fooled. They have access to an unlimited supply of FRNs, paying only for the printing costs of what they need.

        FRNs are nothing more than promissory notes for U.S. Treasury securities (T-Bills) – a promise to pay the debt to the Federal Reserve Bank.

        There is a fundamental difference between “paying” and “discharging” a debt. To pay a debt, you must pay with value or substance (i.e. gold, silver, barter or a commodity).

        With FRNs, you can only discharge a debt.

        You cannot pay a debt with a debt currency system. You cannot service a debt with a currency that has no backing in value or substance.

        No contract in Common law is valid unless it involves an exchange of “good & valuable
        consideration.” Un-payable debt transfers power and control to the sovereign power structure that has no interest in money, law, equity or justice because they have so much wealth already.

        http://www.apfn.net/Doc-100_bankrupycy.htm


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  • #
    RB

    If you watch the BBC you wont see any of this. For months they havent covered Greek riots, Hungarian riots, dissent in Poland, and Romania.


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    • #

      Yep. There is nothing wrong in Europe. There is nothing wrong in Europe. There is nothing wrong in Europe. …

      Move along. Nothing to see.


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      • #
        Bulldust

        I see the odd voice in the media finally reporting the state of the world as it is… i.e. in a depression. If it weren’t for China and India growing like the clappers this last decade or two, we would have noticed in Australia as well.

        We are suffering for the lesser of two evils, a rampant growth in mining making other industries uncompetitive through a high exchange rate. Unfortunately this means the mining industry will get hammered pretty hard as metal prices start to soften (more). I sincerely doubt the Aussie dollar will drop in the coming downturn to depths we are used to seeing in recessions (i.e. 50-60 US cents). Higher dollar & soft metal prices = very bad for mining companies without a lot of cash reserve.

        The Euro has slipped a bit since December BTW … it is starting to lose it’s sheen of invicibility IMO. Expect it to fall, nay plummet, a bit this year. Unfortunately that probably means a strengthening US dollar, which is the last thing they need right now… but them’s the breaks.

        Tricky times… which also means a lot more civil unrest to come in the countries worst affected by the depression.


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  • #
    KinkyKeith

    I particularly like their demands for a clean-out of all levels of government.

    May be hard to achieve but when a society collapses as is the case in Europe all bets are off.

    Having to listen to Politicians talking about financial aspects of government and talk glibly about allocating a million dollars here or there gives me goosebumps.

    On another thread people have identified a University Sociologist who has been “allocated” 2 million to assess the relationship between the Australian flag and racism.

    This is an unnecessary expenditure but politicians say to themselves; “it doesn’t matter if we add another 2 mill to the final annual deficit of 4 billion, nobody will notice it”.

    Wrong way of thinking. Australia a couple of years ago had very good financials, we now have a national debt and there are no plans to stop it increasing.


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  • #
    Louis Hissink

    Have a read of Justh Sloan’s impression of the Davos Economic Summit in this Weekend Australian (she has two columns in the online version). The summit is controlled by the EU socialists and as their economic is collapsing, (they don’t recognise that it is), the people will start to rebel.

    The MSM is controlled by the bankers in any case, (its complex and started way back in medieval times at the time of Magna Carta), but as every empire has discovered, underground economies always appear when the system becomes a mess.


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    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      Louis,

      The MSM is controlled by the bankers in any case, (its complex and started way back in medieval times at the time of Magna Carta)

      I would be interested in knowing the reference for that statement, especially events that occurred around the Magna Carta Libertatum (1215).


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      • #
        Kevin Moore

        The Edict of Expulsion 1290 King Edward 1 is related to the Magna Carta.


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          Rereke Whakaaro

          Only three clauses from the original Magna Carta remain in the British Statute. All of the remaining clauses have been repealed at one time or another, and in some cases reinstated and then repealed again. It is an interesting story, but not entirely relevant to Louis’s remark.

          My comment was more about his statement that, “The MSM is controlled by the bankers … [since] medieval times … around the Magna Carta”. i.e. circa 1215.

          The first regularly published newspaper in Britain was the Weekly Chronicle, circa 1785, almost six hundred years after the Magna Carta.


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          • #
            Phil

            Hi

            I think you will find the oldest published newspaper in the world is the Berrows Journal first published in 1690 (irregularly) then regularly in 1709. Its still going strong and is the evening paper of the town I grew up in.

            Regards

            Phil


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    • #
      Kevin Moore

      Not what you’re looking for but may be of interest.

      Magna Carta was Common Law,or the Law of The Land, but Acts of politicians are Admiralty law [Statutes] or the Law of The Sea [Acts Interpretation Act 1901, 15B]


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  • #
    Louis Hissink

    Have a read of Judith Sloan’s impression of the Davos Economic Summit in this Weekend Australian (she has two columns in the online version). The summit is controlled by the EU socialists and as their economic is collapsing, (they don’t recognise that it is), the people will start to rebel.

    The MSM is controlled by the bankers in any case, (its complex and started way back in medieval times at the time of Magna Carta), but as every empire has discovered, underground economies always appear when the system becomes a mess.


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  • #
    wes george

    Germany Formally Requests That Greece Hand Over Its Fiscal Independence

    It was tried previously (several times) under “slightly different” circumstances, and failed. Yet when it comes to taking over a country without spilling even one drop of blood, and converting its citizens into debt slaves, Germany’s Merkel may have just succeeded where so many of her predecessors failed. According to a Reuters exclusive, “Germany is pushing for Greece to relinquish control over its budget policy to European institutions as part of discussions over a second rescue package, a European source told Reuters on Friday.” Reuters add: “There are internal discussions within the Euro group and proposals, one of which comes from Germany, on how to constructively treat country aid programs that are continuously off track, whether this can simply be ignored or whether we say that’s enough,”

    2012 is going to be interesting.

    Germany is pushing for Greece to relinquish control over its budget policy to European institutions as part of discussions over a second rescue package, a European source told Reuters on Friday.


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      Louis Hissink

      Wes,

      This is simply the ongoing process of destroying the nation-states by bankrupting them – this is going to become ugly, especially for the politicians, rent seekers public servants and associated parasites.


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        Rereke Whakaaro

        It is going to get ugly for the world.

        Say after me: This is not just Europe’s problem. The solid truth of the matter is that Europe will take the world economy down with it.

        Here is a strap line for the 21st century: “The only safe way to be, is to be debt free”. Get there as fast as you can.


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          wes george

          I sure hope that both of you are wrong because there is some evidence that should the world economy and with it the US dollar totally collapse it would be far worse than the Great Depression because back then everyone lived relatively close to nature, not to mention cities and populations were much smaller.

          Our dependence upon layer after layer of complex supply lines, from the paddocks to the grocery and from the oil wells and coal mines to the petrol station and the light switch means that a really major economic implosion would probably destroy the already threadbare social fabric in our major cities. Civil disorder was never a real big problem in the Great Depression. But today we are skating on the thin ice of the same kind of economic systems which were only designed to support the complexities of the industrial age with much smaller populations. Today we’ve extended the complexity and distance we are from being able to live directly off the land without any strengthening of the resilience of those complex systems. We’re at risk of an epic cascade failure where one systems collapses triggers another and so on until the whole of the economy grinds to a halt. If this kind of catastrophic failure were to occur it would be much aggravated by the way society has become so ideological polarised thus limiting our ability to work together to ameliorate the real problem. Our elites will struggle to the bitter end to find political advantage in our descent into chaos rather than offer real solutions all of which mean political compromise and pain.

          One economist I read declared that the collapse of the global economy wouldn’t mean a return to the 1930′s but more like 455 AD, which if I recall was a pretty bad year for western civilisation.

          When Nixon defaulted on the gold obligations of the US government in 1971, he plunged the entire world into the regime of irredeemable paper currency. As of 1944, the world’s central banks had agreed to use the US dollar as if it were gold. It was (and is) their core asset, against which they lend to banks in their own currencies. When the dollar’s gold redeemibility was defaulted, the result was that the entire world’s currencies and financial system became a purely debt-based system. A positive value (gold) was replaced with a negative (debt).

          Like that TV commercial coyly said, “let’s see if they notice.”

          The result was market chaos. Prices rose dramatically in the 1970’s; many thought the paper currencies were headed towards their graves right then and there.

          Then along came Volcker, and under Reagan, engineered a “fix”. He quickly brought interest rates up to nearly 16% on the 10-year bond in July of 1981. He then began a process of forcing them ever lower and lower. This process continues today, with the 10-year yielding around 2.5% as of this writing (Aug 2011).

          This created the long boom. It almost busted twice, on Black Monday in 1987, and again in 2001 (even before 9/11). It finally began busting in earnest in 2008. Thanks to stupefying amounts of money spent on bailouts and “stimulus”, the bust has been arrested. The can has been kicked down the road.

          http://keithweiner.posterous.com/pages/why-another-economics-blog

          I think that the idea of a debt based system makes it sound far more invidious than it original was. The idea wasn’t that the system was based on debt but rather the collateral against which the loan was made. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is bankers and traders aided by the computer revolution were able to ever further extend the definition and packaging of debt, selling it along and reselling and so on until, yup now the whole big picture system is based on debt disconnected to any collateral. And as more and more people understand this and try to extract their fortunes from a system that has lost all credibility at some point the rush to escape will rapidly accelerate and freeze everything. I have no idea what happens then.

          Here’s a metaphor:

          Helga is the proprietor of a bar.

          She realizes that virtually all of her customers are unemployed alcoholics and, as such, can no longer afford to patronize her bar.

          To solve this problem, she comes up with a new marketing plan that allows her customers to drink now, but pay later.

          Helga keeps track of the drinks consumed on a ledger (thereby granting the customers’ loans).

          Word gets around about Helga’s “drink now, pay later” marketing strategy and, as a result, increasing numbers of customers flood into Helga’s bar. Soon she has the largest sales volume for any bar in town.

          By providing her customers freedom from immediate payment demands, Helga gets no resistance when, at regular intervals, she substantially increases her prices for wine and beer, the most consumed beverages. Consequently, Helga’s gross sales volume increases massively.

          A young and dynamic vice-president at the local bank recognizes that these customer debts constitute valuable future assets and increases Helga’s borrowing limit.

          He sees no reason for any undue concern, since he has the debts of the unemployed alcoholics as collateral!!!

          At the bank’s corporate headquarters, expert traders figure a way to make huge commissions, and transform these customer loans into DRINKBONDS.These “securities” then are bundled and traded on international securities markets.

          Naive investors don’t really understand that the securities being sold to them as “AA” “Secured Bonds” really are debts of unemployed alcoholics.

          Nevertheless, the bond prices continuously climb!!!, and the securities soon become the hottest-selling items for some of the nation’s leading brokerage houses.

          One day, even though the bond prices still are climbing, a risk manager at the original local bank decides that the time has come to demand payment on the debts incurred by the drinkers at Helga’s bar.

          He so informs Helga.

          Helga then demands payment from her alcoholic patrons, but being unemployed alcoholics they cannot pay back their drinking debts.

          Since Helga cannot fulfil her loan obligations she is forced into bankruptcy.

          The bar closes and Helga’s 11 employees lose their jobs.

          Overnight, DRINKBOND prices drop by 90%. The collapsed bond asset value destroys the bank’s liquidity and prevents it from issuing new loans, thus freezing credit and economic activity in the community.

          The suppliers of Helga’s bar had granted her generous payment extensions and had invested their firms’ pension funds in the BOND securities. They find they are now faced with having to write off her bad debt and with losing over 90% of the presumed value of the bonds.

          Her wine supplier also claims bankruptcy, closing the doors on a family business that had endured for three generations, her beer supplier is taken over by a competitor, who immediately closes the local plant and lays off 150 workers. Fortunately though, the bank, the brokerage houses and their respective executives are saved and bailed out by a multibillion dollar no-strings attached cash infusion from the government.

          The funds required for this bailout are obtained by new taxes levied on employed, middle-class, non-drinkers who have never been in Helga’s bar.

          http://www.zerohedge.com/news/explaining-modern-finance-and-economics-using-booze-and-broke-alcoholics


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    • #
      John Brookes

      Germany Formally Requests That Greece Hand Over Its Fiscal Independence

      That would probably be because the Greeks keep asking Germany for money.


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      • #

        Incorrect. The Greeks are being forced to accept “help” by being kept within the monetary union. They have had political leaders appointed by Eurocrats to ensure that the folk don’t get any bright ideas about abandoning the Euro and rebuilding their own economy from scratch without the burden of the EU.

        Greece is being manipulated to support the concept of a European megastate.

        The interference in the government of a sovereign state by the EU contravenes the principles of European stability established in the Peace of Westphalia; which ended the 30 years war in Europe.


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          Rereke Whakaaro

          Bernd,

          Please don’t quote the facts to John, it only confuses him. I bet he can’t even locate where Westphalia is.


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            wes george

            It’s not that simple, Johnny. Besides as our resident Leftist moonbat your supposed to unthinkingly side with the trampled peasants not the German bankers. Clean up your dogma, dude.

            Notwithstanding their own many sins, the Greeks should treat this latest German proposal with the contempt it deserves. If Greece is to make the reforms and take the painful steps the Germans want, its elected politicians should take those steps on their own. If its elected officials choose to defy the Germans, Greece will almost certainly have to leave the euro in great pain and tribulation.

            Those are unpalatable choices, but the miserable combination of Greek and EU shortsightedness and greed seems to have left no better options. The only freedom the Greeks have left is to choose how to suffer, but that is a choice that must be theirs to make.

            German politicians from Chancellor Merkel down love to talk about their dedication to Europe and their desire to see the current crisis resolved through the strengthening of European institutions. If this is sincerely their belief and not a shallow pose, they can begin by taking public responsibility for their own very considerable part in creating the European crisis, explain to German voters that Germans are going to have to pony up to save their banking system from the consequences of bad regulation and stupid loans, and come up with a much more just and reasonable approach to the European crisis than anything they have yet proposed. That solution will certainly include many of the reforms Germany advocates today, but it will also include measures that share the sacrifices far more equally and fairly than anything the Germans have yet been willing to conceive.

            http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2012/01/28/will-german-politicians-wreck-europe-to-save-their-own-skins/


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    • #

      Breaking.. 2 minutes ago. Greece rejects Germany’s EU Budget Plan: http://www.skynews.com.au/politics/article.aspx?id=712930&vId=


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  • #
    handjive

    George Soros, the man who still holds the record for making more money in a single day’s trading than anyone, Jan 23, 2012:

    “I am not here to cheer you up.
    The situation is about as serious and difficult as I’ve experienced in my career,” Soros tells Newsweek.
    “We are facing an extremely difficult time, comparable in many ways to the 1930s, the Great Depression.

    As he sees it, the world faces one of the most dangerous periods of modern history—a period of “evil.”

    Europe is confronting a descent into chaos and conflict.
    In America he predicts riots on the streets that will lead to a brutal clampdown that will dramatically curtail civil liberties

    George Soros on the Coming U.S. Class War


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  • #

    [...] the last couple of weeks, truck-drivers in Sicily, have blockaded roads and ports protesting at the sudden 40% rise in the fuel price (due to taxes) which is wiping out their business. The fishermen joined in, so did [...]


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  • #
    Rolf

    What if this is not due to taxes ? What if this is due to oil supply ? Just have a look and see what’s comming. If it’s due to taxes it would be the same all over Italy, not an isolated place. One guess is that’s the embargo on Iran oil is not so easy to find another source.


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    • #
      Bruce of Newcastle

      Rolf – there is a difference between levying taxes and actually collecting them. One reason why Greece is not meeting any of the EU imposed deficit limits is tax collection is collapsing faster than the EU can impose tighter and tighter limits. The people seem to have all simultaneously decided to not pay tax and wait until the government chases them down, or more likely, for a tax amnesty.

      Remember when the Greek government started flying helicopters and using Google Earth to try and find out who was evading property tax?

      “Officially, just over 300 Kifissia residents admitted to having a pool. The true figure is believed to be 20,000. There is even a boom in sales of tarpaulins to cover pools and make them invisible to the aerial tax inspectors.”

      Says it all really.

      Underlying this is the same rule of law problem that causes poor governance in sub saharan Africa. Corruption sucks the lifeblood out of nations.

      Sicily has a history of being very similar to Greece in this respect. Until people pay their taxes there will be no recovery. And people will only pay their taxes when they see their government governing fairly and uncorruptly. Chicken meet egg. I can’t see this entrenched culture changing in Greece anytime soon – in Argentina they recovered rapidly from the default and unpegging of the currency because there remained quite a strong culture of independence and willingness to make and sell things. This does not seem to be the case in Greece.

      Beware of Greeks Bearing Bonds


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  • #
    John Brookes

    A 40% rise in fuel prices. No wonder they are unhappy. If you imagine that this price increase occurred because of a carbon tax, what level of carbon tax would produce it?

    A litre of petrol produces 2.3 kg of CO2. So a tonne of CO2 is produced by 430 litres of petrol. Assuming that petrol in Sicily was around $1.30 per litre, a 40% increase is about $0.50 per litre. So to get a rise of this magnitude, a carbon tax would have to be set at $215 per tonne. Ten times the gentle start planned for Australia.

    It seems irresponsible to raise taxes so rapidly.


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    • #
      Dave

      John Brookes,

      The effect of an additional carbon tax on fuel prices in Italy is quite different from the actual CO2 tax that you describe – check your information 1st before waffling on. Italy has had the excise tax + Carbon Tax on Fuel operating since around 1999. The government rakes in a fortune from fuel (all fossil fuels) and the world is getting cooler.

      Also – who do you classify as the “Little People“? Amazing statement John Brookes!


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      Tristan

      The country was living beyond its means. Now it must not only live within its means, but pay its debts. That requires some pretty big changes and a lot of belt-tightening. I think that Greeks would suck it up without too much complaining if they felt the people who got them into the mess (the bureaucrats) were leading by example. As far as I know, the politicians haven’t accepted drastic cuts to their own lifestyles, so why the hell should so many of the populace?


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        Dave

        Tristan?

        I think that Greeks would suck it up without too much complaining

        What are you talking about? Greeks?? This particular thread is referring to Italy & Sicily!
        [snip. no need. mod oggi]


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      Bruce of Newcastle

      John – A week ago Mitt Romney’s advisor advocated a $2/gal petrol tax to address climate change.

      This would raise petrol price in the US by about 40%.

      I presume from your comment that you agree with me that this would be a silly thing for Mr Romney to actually do?


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  • #
    Stuart Huggett

    Well researched Joanne!!!

    Definitely not news that is ‘on message’

    Can I commend you and your readers to this amazing speech by Nigel Farage to the EU Commissioners about what they are doing to Italy…. The key phrase is ‘What in God’s name gives you the right to do this to the Italian people?”

    Probably only the first rumbles…

    Thanks again for a great site…


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    Stuart Huggett

    Oh dear I forgot to put in the link – here it is:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdob6QRLRJU&feature=youtu.be


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      Joe V.

      This Farage character is a veritable paragon if free speech.
      He’s only allowed to speak so freely because he is completely powerless.
      And that is the Key to the European situation.
      .
      Watch the appointed (unelected) Commisioners sitting there and taking it, smirking as they know they only have to listen to it, but do not one thing about it – other than try to smear & ridicule this man who stands up & talks so plainly.

      The European Parliament is but a sounding board, for letting the representatives of the ‘little people’ let of steam , in the hope it’ll make them feel better, while identifying ‘talent’ that might be co-opted to the ranks of the EUrocrats if they can be seduced by the trappings of office to abandon their political convictions.

      For a digest of more such examples of the EU Parliament working, telling it like it is, to the ostriches that actually run things. Try here:-
      EU Parlaying


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      Joe V.

      The EU Commissioners don’t do it with quite such panache as in the Australian Parliament, as they know they don’t have to worry about re-election in a few years, so why even bother , acknowledging the dissent. Just carry on announcing their new political and techocratic contstructs that are going to make it all so much better, for another while, while totally ignoring the Parliament.
      They even bother paying lip service as the Parliament is an irrelevance to them.


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    Kevin Moore

    Questionaire on RT’s website -

    What should Assange expose in RT’s TV series?

    http://rt.com/

    1. Who controls the Internet

    2. How banks run the world

    3. NATO war machine agenda

    4. Who rules the mainstream media


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    A relevant article at EUReferendum

    Salient point:

    A constitution cannot be decreed for us any more than respect can be demanded, yet it is respect for the law that leads to consent to the rule of law.

    The future is written in history.


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      Rereke Whakaaro

      Hmmm …

      That guest piece at EUReferendum makes the common mistake that the Magna Carta is still significant in British Law. It is not. And It certainly does not have the same status as the US Constitution.

      Only three clauses remain:

      Clause 1 of Magna Carta (the original 1215 edition) guarantees the freedom of the English Church. Although this originally meant freedom from the King, later in history it was used for different purposes (see below). Clause 13 guarantees the “ancient liberties” of the city of London. Clause 29 gives a right to due process.

      Source: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Magna_Carta

      The principles behind the Magna Carta have been modified and morphed into other legislation, in the most part, but Britain no longer has a single defining document.


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        Don’t get distracted from the salient point that the rule of law is by consent.

        de facto; Britain is ruled by the Eurocratic Empire which makes the bulk of regulations and laws that are used to “govern” the province made up of fiefdoms previously referred to as “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”.


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    Joe V.

    Meanwhile the UN admits it’s not working , at the World Economic Forum in Davos:-

    “Even though governments have said in Durban ‘yes we’re going to dedicate the next three years to negotiating and agreeing by 2015 a new legally binding agreement’, let’s be very clear, that is not going to happen,”

    said Christiana Figueres, executive secretary of the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change. ”
    .
    And what’s more, they are realising they cann’t do it without more of the ‘little people’ :-

    “Unless you have this from the bottom up, unless you have very powerful pressure from consumers, from private sector, from civil society to governments to say yes, this is what we want, as a humankind this is what we want, it’s not going to happen because it’s just too big”

    , she added.

    Full article : http://m.economictimes.com/news/politics/nation/world-economic-forum-davos-2012-no-chance-for-climate-deal-unless-firms-join-push-says-un/articleshow/11644759.cms


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    Post updated: I remembered an article in The Australian this week which is so apt.

    UPDATE: One of the reasons Italy is in such a deep hole is its media

    James Panichi, Italian writer, in The Australian writes about how the captain of the Costa Concordia was “presumed guilty” by the journalists from day one.

    I would argue the Italian press is among the most unreliable and unprofessional in the West.

    What few outsiders understand is that Italian journalism is dominated by a legally recognised corporation, the Ordine dei giornalisti. It’s a throwback to the fascist era guild of journalists, under which people who had not passed a state-run exam could not be employed as fully fledged journalists. Similar laws are in place today. The Ordine is by definition uncompetitive: it’s designed to curb the supply of journalists, thus protecting the state-sponsored perks they have come to expect (free gallery entry, discounted public transport, inflated pay).

    And, like most of the medieval guilds that dominate and distort Italy’s economy, the Ordine is highly politicised and incapable of upholding professional standards. There may be exceptions, but the copy of most Italian journalists would not get past the most forgiving of subeditors in an English-speaking newsroom.

    Italian journalism is unreliable, slanderous and sensationalist. There is no presumption of innocence: anyone accused of a crime is described as having done it. People are identified by their ethnicity; wrong articles are never corrected; names are misspelt. Prominent Italians have opinions attributed to them that they neither hold nor understand. The style of writing is opaque and wordy. There are virtually no women columnists working at the country’s top 20 newspapers. There’s also the tradition that has become synonymous with Italian reporting: virgolettare il pensiero, the quoting of a person’s thoughts: “I’m in a very tricky situation,” the prime minister thought.

    The two largest mastheads, Corriere della Sera and La Repubblica, struggle to sell more than 600,000 copies a day – a pittance for a country of 60 million people. But market forces aren’t really the issue. The Italian government spends about $850 million a year to prop up newspapers. Some publications exist not to make money, but to generate employment through government funding.

    It’s a symptom of a weak press, of low standards, of an industry that was too conflicted to provide checks and balances for the government expenditure, and never strong enough to expose corruption. A nation without a real investigative media will collapse under it’s own cronyism. And so it has come to pass…


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      markus

      It is very ugly, right now, Joanne Nova. But one has to keep faith, we will oust them soon.


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        Markus Fitzhenry

        There is no more I can do here, AGW meets a rubber ear.

        But alas, while hatred is around, we will never settle, our crown.

        It is they who speak of us, as if we are no more than, powder puffs.

        It is my right to speak to them, and I will condemn.

        Markus Fitzhenry.


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    Peter Miller

    This may help explain the situation in Europe – and lots of other places elsewhere:

    Spanish scientists announce the discovery of a perverse, perplexing atom.

    The new element is Governmentium (Gv). It has one neutron, 25 assistant neutrons, 88 deputy neutrons and 198 assistant deputy neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312.

    These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of lefton-like particles called peons.

    Since Governmentium has no electrons or protons, it is inert. However, it can be detected, because it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact. A tiny amount of Governmentium can cause a reaction normally taking less than a second to take from four days to four years to complete.
    Governmentium has a normal half-life of 3-6 years. It does not decay but instead undergoes a reorganization in which a portion of the assistant neutrons and deputy neutrons exchange places.

    In fact, Governmentium’s mass will actually increase over time, since each reorganization will cause more morons to become neutrons, forming isodopes.

    This characteristic of moron promotion leads some scientists to believe that Governmentium is formed whenever morons reach a critical concentration. This hypothetical quantity is referred to as critical morass.

    When catalysed with money, Governmentium becomes Administratium, an element that radiates just as much energy as Governmentium since it has half as many peons but twice as many morons. All of the money is consumed in the exchange, and no other byproducts are produced.


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      KinkyKeith

      great Peter


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        KinkyKeith

        This outline is a modern day parable for people with scientific backgrounds to be led to an understanding of the constipatedness and selfservingness of modern government.

        Similar parables for other parts of the community may be useful.

        eg. Footballium and Cricketium.

        I don’t think there would be any point doing a re write for Greenium.


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    Rereke Whakaaro

    There’s also the tradition that has become synonymous with Italian reporting: virgolettare il pensiero, the quoting of a person’s thoughts: “I’m in a very tricky situation,” the prime minister thought.

    This is complementary for an Italian newspaper – at least the journalist is intimating that the Prime Minister actually thinks!

    From this, we deduce that the journalist is probably part of the Prime Ministers’ extended family. :-)


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    David, UK

    bananabender
    January 29, 2012 at 11:48 pm · Reply

    Jefferson was talking about he danger of private banks issuing their own banknotes not the US Mint.

    A banknote is nothing more than a pre-printed cheque issued by ankfor a fixed amount of money.

    Indeed – and so is true of coins, since coins stopped being made of metals of any significant value a long time ago.


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    Joanne,

    How refreshing to find such an intelligent and witty site and even comment threads. Thank you for linking to my piece on the Sicilian revolt, I will definitely link to this for further reading.

    I have also written about Mario Monti being a fish out of water in the Italian Parliament when they heckled his senate address a few weeks ago. This is just a part of the problem with Italian unrest and Eurocrats ‘appointing’ Monti to an elected position. I have also imbedded the a fore mentioned video of that speech by Nigel Farage. It seems to be quite appropriate for the comments made.
    http://culturalcomments.blogspot.com/2011/12/europe-pessimo-politics.html

    On a side note, while I am keeping my blog updated with the latest on the situation in Vernazza, I am not actually in Vernazza, but the city next door.


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    methinks the liberation of Europe started with Operation Husky in Sicily, in 1943…


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    Neville

    Meanwhile NASA scientists are more concerned about the coming cold than any serious warming.

    In fact no warming now for 15 years, or half a climate cycle.

    Of course our co2 tax can’t change the temp or climate by a jot, but will help to wreck our economy and export jobs and industries overseas.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2093264/Forget-global-warming–Cycle-25-need-worry-NASA-scientists-right-Thames-freezing-again.html#ixzz1ksaai1Qc


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    chris

    Are you suggesting that the Australian presstitutes are any less corrupt than their Italian counterparts? The Italian and Greek immigrants had a very corrosive affect on Australian politics. Their branch stacking has disenfranchised the Anglo majority which stupidly welcomed them to our shores. Our politicians pander to ethnic ‘communities’ and special interest groups, while the silent majority are treated with contempt. If you do not believe me, then ask yourself why Gillard appointed someone in her office last week to liase with the Jewish community. It is about time these leeches looked after all Australians for once.


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      KinkyKeith

      Chris

      Thanks for saying that.

      Australians post WW11 were too trusting and assumed that everyone was in this together. Yes, we were taken for a ride.

      I have met many hardworking and self reliant people from Italian and particularly Vietnamese backgrounds.

      Despite the “Cabramatta” thing, which was basically both Lib and Lab premiers failing to provide adequate Law and Order, the Vietnamese have been perhaps the outstanding immigrant group in recent times. The taxes invested in them has been repaid many times over.


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        Wayne, s. Job

        You are dead right on that one, despite some hiccups the Vietnamese have been a blessing to Australia, the Chinese likewise have been exemplarary. Real Aussies.


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    Nik

    Some rubbish is recklessly flung about here, like the assertion that the wealthy Kifisia suburb of Athens has 20 000 swimming pools. That would involve having more pools than residents, totally improbable. Google Kifisia municipality figures before reproducing garbage.

    The theory of austerity is crap. So is the gratuitously perpetuated notion of Greeks and/or Italians being habitual tax cheats. The theory enables the Merkelites to demand and get a stream of constantly rising taxes. Installing a Gauleiter in Greece would ensure they get priority payment for money which they borrow at 1% and relend at 4%. The last two months my tax bill was more than my total gross income. The sense in such measures must be even to the most staunch lutheran minds a tad unproductive. Unless the point is for us to starve eventually and thus solve the problem that way.

    The Italians are implementing a similar policy of overtaxation to close the current account deficit. But like Laffer pointed out some years ago, once you go past the tax producing limit of a population you are more likely to cause recession and get diminishing taxes. No amount of lutheranism can save you then.

    Nik


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      Bruce of Newcastle

      Nik – you can take that up with the Daily Mail, whose article it came from (at the link), or with the PCC. However I’ve seen similar reports elsewhere, though the numbers vary. Anyway, it wasn’t the numbers, what I was most impressed with was the reported boom in camouflaging tarpaulins.

      Italy seems similar, though they may prefer Lambos to pools. I don’t write what’s in major newspapers I just read them. With caution.

      “You can read the Times if you want to. Sometimes they get lucky.” – K, Men in Black


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      gnome

      Wikipedia says 43,929 in 2001. Population growth since then? 20,000 swimming pools seems like a lot, but if it is a wealthy enclave one for every third household and an average of three persons per household still comes to a lot more than 300. Clearly, no-one knows what the real figure is. Arguably, no-one needs to know, as long as there aren’t too many children drowning in them.

      But don’t try to tell us that Greeks have been carrying their weight. And if you don’t like lutherans, I dare you to tell them that before you ask them for money. You haven’t up till now, but you look like having lots more opportunities in the next few months.


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      DirkH

      No sane person would lend Greece money for 4%. The risk of default is too high. Even if you can lend it at 1%, you wouldn’t re-lend it to Greece.

      What I’m saying is that Merkel is insane herself. She’s throwing good money after the bad. We (Germany) will have to write it all off eventually anyway.

      The Eurocrats (Merkel, Sarkozy, the EU commission etc…) want to keep their empire against the realities of the market; it will all end in failure.

      Nothing personal against the Greek; that’s just what I see. There’s no way this can end without a breakup of the Eurozone; the imbalances get bigger by the day. Google TARGET2 or look at the definition of NIIP on the wikipedia.


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      Graeme No.3

      And C. Northcote Parkinson pointed this out in 1959 (in The Law and the Profits).

      Government expenditure would keep rising, as there was no mechanism to stop it.
      The black economy would expand. Those not in the black economy would be squeezed.
      The respect for the “rule of law” would drop as those who were paying felt that the only way to survive was to find some way of evading taxes. Hence increasing lawlessness.
      Eventually the public would revolt.

      His other prediction (in 1962 East and West) was the collapse of communism, the breakup of the USSR, and the rise of militant Islam.

      Needless to say, he was ignored. Copies of books turn up in secondhand bookshops occasionally and well worth reading.


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    DirkH

    The Italian Journalists guild has been mentioned. It should be noticed that practically ALL traditional professions in Italy are organized in such guilds; that’s the reason prices for services are extremely high and competition next to non-existent. Similar results to the American Auto worker unions; which lead to the ruin of Detroit by making the industry unable to compete with cars assembled in right-to-work states from imported parts.

    Italy is in this regard still like a medieval society. Of course these guilds organize protests against such tax hikes.


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    Romanoz

    As Naomi Klein has pointed out in the NYTimes, emissions reduction is not a win-win game. It posits a revolution which will see the end of the economics of growth.
    Some powerful players are going to have to lose if the targets are going to be reached. The rest – well they will be “compensated” according to Gillard and then enserfed!


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    Siliggy

    How Iran is reporting this.
    “[Sicily, Italy] Martino Morsello: ‘Invisible enemy calls for Pitchfork Movement!’ [ © PressTV] ”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_pEoEfaquw


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    Mark D.

    Wow, you people are saying things that are starting to scare me.

    That is not a good thing at all…….

    Just this morning I was told by a retired Physician (MD) to buy more food and ammunition. He stated that the trouble was going to start in the EU and the US would try to bail them. It won’t be enough and by this summer all hell will break lose.

    I really hope he is wrong……


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    Dave

    O/T but getting auctioned here in Australia Now?

    Description at Graysonline:
    Wind power / Wind turbine generated carbon credits. Certified VCS standard. These carbon credits are suitable for individuals or businesses voluntary carbon reduction initiatives. These carbon credits were generated of the following project. Bundled wind power project in Tamil Nadu, India The total capacity of this project activity is 19.8MW. The project activity by TCS Textiles Pvt Ltd involves 22 Wind Turbine Generators (WTGs) which generate electricity to the Tamilnadu Electricity Board (TNEB) Grid which is a part of Southern Grid of India. These wind power credits are certified “Verified Carbon Standard“. One (1) Tonne of C02 Credits per each, buyer to nominate desired quantity. (164453-1)
    Bids so about $9.00AUD for 10 carbon credits!

    Is this the ship sinking or scams?


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    Juliar

    The arrest of all corrupt politicians. -> Fair enough
    To reduce the number of parliamentarians -> Disagree
    To remove the provincial bureaucracy, as most of these politicians
    have been there for over forty years
    . -> Disagree
    To drastically cut the salaries and privileges of parliamentarians
    and senators
    -> Don’t agree. Politics is a tough gig and is a high pressure job. Politicians deserve to be paid well even if they are incompetent.
    To restrict politicians two only two terms in office -> Disagree


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      KinkyKeith

      Hi Juliar

      If we were talking about Australia I would agree with you but parts of Europe are not like our system of government.

      In Italy, if what we read is correct, see Jo’s description of Italy’s “free press”, the whole system needs a serious Re-bore and a total fresh start.

      Patronism and cronyism doesn’t make for good government.

      Eventually everyone is on the “take” and it collapses.


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    MadJak

    If the basic points jo mentions are what they’re demanding, and they don’t let their message get watered down with fringe demands, they will get what they demand and more, very quickly. If, however, they allow fringe demands to creep in to divide them, their journey to freedom will be much harder.

    Good luck to them – they will succeed – it’s just a matter of how strong their resolve is and how soon their success will come, IMHO.

    I have bored everyone with my views before.

    If only some of the EU countries had actually had a basic understanding of capitalism, instead of being led by numerically illiterate children elected by self centred, short sighted left leaning entitlement focused bludgers, the drastic changes taking place (and their horrible social consequences) simply would not have occurred.

    I see a rise of the middle class – which in most “developed” countries is, in fact, the working class. This is, of course a point that Labor leadership in Australia simply doesn’t have enough brain cells or counting skills to understand. They’re too involved in the narrow, naive and ideological battles of the last century to be able comprehend what the world is now.


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    theRealUniverse

    Spring! Looks like an EU iceage to me.D


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    Graeme No.3

    Madjak,
    I should think that a lot of Italian politicians are thinking of giving up their day job. Who wants to be “front and centre” when the population starts to decorate the lamp posts with those they blame.

    But there are signs of intelligence (or perhaps rat cunning); the Spanish have dumped subsidies for “green” electricity, the Germans are cutting the solar rebate rate, even in the UK there is the start of a retreat from covering the land with wind turbines. Our local lefties think there is still lots of money available because Swannopoulos (the World’s fastest debt generator) tells them the economy is going great guns, and the mining tax will generate lots extra to waste.

    Check out the rumbles from China. The Baltic Dry Index dropped 44% last year, mainly due to lessening Chinese acceptances of iron ore. Chinese imports from Japan fell 16.2pc in December. Imports from Taiwan fell 6.2pc. The Shanghai Container freight Index has been sliding for months.
    The mining tax may not bring in very much at all, even if the constitutional problem can be overcome. Since the minerals belong to the States, Julia (or her successor) will be trying to stand between the State Premiers and a bag of money.

    We may yet find ourselves living in interesting times.


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      MadJak

      Graeme No.3

      I should think that a lot of Italian politicians are thinking of giving up their day job. Who wants to be “front and centre” when the population starts to decorate the lamp posts with those they blame.

      Well that should weed out the rent seekers from the people who actually care about making a positive difference for their country.

      Sure, it’s the person in the position when the proverbial hits the fan, but guess what? That’s all a part of the job. Look at Swannopoulos at the moment basking in the glory of the reforms of the howard/costellow and Keating reforms. To those of us who can see it for what it is, I fear we are in the minority though

      Yes, China is concerning. I think they did the right thing with popping the RE bubble – instead of trying to prop it up. I (like others) can only hope that china can pull off the great transition to spurring internal demand for their products. I’m unsure if they’re ready to, but if they pull it off, there is hope -albiet with a radically transformed economic power paradigm.


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    Harry The Hacker

    The demands sounds an awful lot like those of Peter Lalor at Eureka.

    I also thought that the Italian media was heavily owned / controlled by Berlusconi.


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    incoherent rambler

    The demands sounds an awful lot like those of Peter Lalor at Eureka.

    They shot Peter.

    I reminded of the saying “You get the government that the media allows”


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      No they didn’t. They couldn’t find a jury to convict the Eureka people.


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      Harry The Hacker

      No they did not.

      Peter Lalor went on to become a member of parliament in Victoria. Over time, most of the demands were met.

      —–

      For various reasons, the miners felt that they were being taxed and treated unjustly. They created the Ballarat Reform League, with (amongst other things) the following political aims:

      (1) A full and fair representation. [i.e. in parliament]
      (2) Manhood suffrage. [in other words - everyone can vote]
      (3) No property qualification of Members for the Legislative Council.
      (4) Payment of Members.
      (5) Short duration of parliament.

      The charter of the Ballarat Reform League begins:

      “That it is the inalienable right of every citizen to have a voice in making the laws that he is called on to obey – that taxation without representation is tyranny.”

      The members of the League burned their miners licenses in an act of defiance of the Government.

      At the time, a license had to be provided on demand, something that was not always possible because they were often kept in the miners’ tent, away from the wet and dirty conditions. However any miner found not carrying the license was immediately arrested and fined.

      The burning of the miners licenses led, in turn, to the massacre of miners at the Eureka Stockade in a surprise night raid by the Victoria police.

      The resulting rampage by the police saw innocent bystanders shot, the wounded being bayoneted, and much needless destruction of miners property.

      About 22 miners were either killed immediately or died soon after, and a further 12 were wounded and survived. Casualties on the Government side were 4 killed and 12 wounded.

      This is one of only two acts of defiance by Australian people against their government, and is the incident that had the largest impact on shaping our Australian democracy.

      Whilst the rebellion was over in 15 minutes, it led DIRECTLY to fundamental changes in Government in the colony of Victoria, and had a significant influence on all Australian Governments.

      Some of the things we take for granted came about from, or were hastened by, the efforts of the Ballarat Reform League, and their leader Peter Lalor:

      . short terms of parliament
      . nobody needs to carry or produce identification papers or other government documentation to police on demand (generally you have 24 hours)
      . true representative democracy
      . the right to trial, to see and hear your accusers
      . limits on powers of police
      . fairness in dealing with governments and employers

      Peter Lalor, leader of the Ballarat Reform League later became Speaker of the Victorian Legislative Council [Upper House of Parliament].


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    ceetee

    Fantastic discourse, there is hope after all.


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    Bruce of Newcastle

    Back on thread and some more. When Argentina defaulted the people did as Nicole in Liguria is reporting – the revolt of the pot bangers.

    “What now drives housewives in Argentina out of their homes and into the streets banging empty pots is not that they have run out of dollars, but the visceral and frightening realization that they have run out of a future.”


    So now we will see pot banging in Athens, in Lisbon and maybe in Palermo. But Argentina revived remarkably quickly after they defaulted:

    “‘Argentina suffered terribly from 1998 through 2001, as it tried to be orthodox and do the right thing. After it defaulted at the end of 2001, it went through a brief severe downturn, but soon began a rapid recovery that continued for a long time,’ Economics Nobel Prize laureate Paul Krugman wrote earlier this year.”


    So what now? In the UK Telegraph today is this article:
    We’re on the brink, warns Greece ahead of summit

    “Greece faces “the spectre of bankruptcy and all the dire consequences that entails”, the Greek prime minister warned last night.”


    In other words the technocrat PM of Greece has just said to the EU ‘pull my finger’.
    The German economy minister says “If the Greeks fail to do this themselves, the leadership and monitoring must come in a stronger way from outside”. How can the Greeks do this? Forget all about 1941 and say yes please Ms Merkel? Mad hubris from Germany!

    So get your earplugs, we may have some pot banging coming.


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    Mydogsgotnonose

    What may be developing is a US-proxy 4th Reich with the new Fuherine, Merkel: http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/revealed-angela-merkel-rigid-serial-conformist/

    ‘Effectively, the US Government and its key agencies now have all the major posts in the EU/IMF/ECB leadership occupied by ‘our people’. Last year The Slog posted about the Strauss-Kahn affair, and how secret American support for Christine Lagarde had ensured her completely undeserved appointment as Managing Director of the IMF. In turn, of course, there are American-trained bankers running Italy and Greece. And as of Friday late afternoon, the Germans have a plan on the table to remove Greek sovereignty.’

    It’s a bit like a re-run of the 1930s when Prescott Bush and Sir Montague Norman worked with Helmar Schacht to cement Hitler’s power!


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    MadJak

    Sir paul nurse

    I just caught the end of your piece broadcast here on their ABC. I am posting these point here in the hope you will consider them.

    1) Lets start with the name – climate change – what an oxymoron – and you wonder why people are sceptical? People sound like nutters everythime they talk about “Fixing climate change” or :tackling climate change” – honestly – you’re meant to be a learned professor – you must at least feel slightly uncomfortable each time you say it.

    2) Please demonstrate where denialist is even a word in the english language. The use of the term “Denier” is a demeaning insult which insults the very people you are trying to communicate to. I call that sheer stupidity on your part.

    3) The attempted comparison between sceptics and GM protestors or cancer patients is astounding. It shows your views of sceptics and your heavy bias against their perspective. Personally I listen to oncologists and recognise that GM has been conducted for centuries.

    4) Of course if my oncologist was explaining that the cancer is somewhere – he doesn’t know where, but thinks they should operate anyways because we’re running out of time to find the hot spot, but s/he would like to take out a lung and a kidney just in case it was there – I would be getting a second opinion – wouldn’t you?

    5) Your attempt to pass peer review off as being some form of rigid quality control is a joke. Sure, it’s better than nothing I guess, but I’m sure during copernicus’s time there would have been an overwhelming consensus that the sun revolved around the earth and it would have all been peer reviewed too.

    6) You mention progress (sputnik)because of science – yes science helps provide the building blocks but it was engineers that produced sputnik. Have you noticed how many engineers are sceptical of Global warming? Engineers can’t afford to get it wrong (without getting a one way ticket to siberia).

    7) You really should look at some of sciences ecological failures here in australia – try the introduction of cane toads as an example, or the influence of the eugenics movement on the locals for some greet examples of consensus science having disastrous effects.

    8) Thanks for the laugh when you mentioned how people said they didn’t want to eat plants with genes in them. They sound like AGW proponents in society explaining that they want carbon removed from all food. Oh, what it wasn’t a Joke? Oops!

    9) For the vast majority of the populace, CC was explained by Al Gore – a politician, in a political way with massive over dramatisation where the debate was “over”. Is it any wonder it’s a politically charged debate – team AGW politicised it.

    10) Yes, your points about misinformation on the web are true – just look at real climate – of course, it was recognised by some in CRU as it not being factually important because it’s a PR tool.

    11) I find it interesting you talk about how scientists must be their own harshest critic when the name of the documentary is along the lines of “science under attack”. And yet you complain that everyone has an opinion on the topic. Of course they do – al gore told them we were all going to fry and that it was all our fault.

    12) So climate science needs to communicate “better” does it? I’ve only been hearing about the science for over a decade now and it still doesn’t add up. Believe me – if it did, I would want to do something about it. But guess what, each time I ask I encounter someone calling me a denier or some conspiracy nut. It kinda makes it difficult to get answers that add up.

    13) RE: Climategate – surely you must be appalled and Dr Phil Jones submission to the parliamentary investigation about how no one peer reviewing his science ever asked for the data?

    Now, if you could tackle the current problems, you may have not wasted everyones time:

    1) Recognise that the climate has always changed and therefore climate change is a useless propaganda slur designed to ridicule anyone who has doubts
    2) Explain where the missing heat is – the troposphere and the Oceans
    3) Explain the runaway global warming effect – the multiplier and justify why this has never occurred before?
    4) Explain why scientists have been so comfortable with reporters and politicians using the r work and exaggerating the claims and over dramatising it and yet remained silent. How is this acceptable on a topic which has such serious implications for everyone on both sides of the debate
    5) Explain why the people on team AGW have failed so abysmally to defend their belief in the face of fierce criticism. If they were so well briefed with hard science, they should have been able to defend themselves better. I am not talking about scientists here – I am talking about the activists.
    6) Explain how australias carbon tax can in any way be about tackling AGW and not being an economic butchering mechanism when it is tied to peoples incomes?
    7) have you ever thought about how many polluters have been getting a free ride while the emphasis on tacking goreball warming has been at the fore?


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      MadJak

      Oh and one more thing – do you think that the scientific community cashed in a significant chuck of it’s credibility the day Al gore and teh IPCC recieved a Nobel peace prize?

      I sure do. It was at that point global warming because a purely political debate in both my mind and many others.


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        Colin Henderson

        Madjak: The Nobel prize does not always go to worthy recipients. Neurologist Walter Freeman won the 1949 Nobel Prize for Medicine in honour of his work – lobotomizing mentally ill people by jabbing a spike between their eyeballs.


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    You mean Goldman-Sachs is a key agency of the US Government? I thought they owned it.


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    Eddy Aruda

    How many times do I have to say it? It always gets down to the money. l like money but it is not my God. That being stated, it is the God of the rich and the powerful. Once people start grumbling because of poor economic conditions the politicians will appease the people to save their own hides and the world will keep on spinning.

    Either this scam falls apart because of money (i.e. wrecked economies and the end of CAGW research funding) or their is a revolution or a coup. Will the republic fall? Nothing lasts forever and this too shall pass! Although I am an optimist I do live in the real world.


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    wes george

    What the Bible Teaches About Capitalism
    As the Ten Commandments instruct, envy is corrosive to the individual and to those

    The Bible’s proclamation that “Six days shall ye work” is its recognition that on a day-to-day basis work is the engine that brings about man’s inner state of personal responsibility. Work develops the qualities of accountability and urgency, including the need for comity with others as a means for the accomplishment of tasks. With work, he becomes imbued with the knowledge that he is to be productive and that his well-being is not an entitlement. And work keeps him away from the idleness that Proverbs warns leads inevitably to actions and attitudes injurious to himself and those around him.

    Yet capitalism is not content with people only being laborers and holders of jobs, indistinguishable members of the masses punching in and out of mammoth factories or functioning as service employees in government agencies. Nor is the Bible. Unlike socialism, mired as it is in the static reproduction of things already invented, capitalism is dynamic and energetic. It cheerfully fosters and encourages creativity, unspoken possibilities, and dreams of the individual. Because the Hebrew Bible sees us not simply as “workers” and members of the masses but, rather, as individuals, it heralds that characteristic which endows us with individuality: our creativity.

    Read the whole thing. I have often encountered leftists in various forums misrepresenting the Bible as proto-Marxism. Rubbish.


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    Mervyn Sullivan

    The western world purposely embarked on a policy of expensive fuel, presumable thinking it would ween people off fossil fuel energy.

    It truly is amazing that at a time when the the world has such an abundance of known reserves of fossil fuels and oil (which is not actually a fossil fuel), and could enjoy the cheapest energy prices in a long time, these western world governments have set in place policies that artificially inflate fuel prices based on the false ideology that CO2 emissions from human activities is causing catastrophic man-made global warming and adversely driving climate change.

    Fortunately, as the real world data on climate is revealing, there is no dangerous warming, and many people are soon going have to face the inconvenient truth that the ideology, based on climate models, is totally wrong and there is no reason to decarbonize the world let alone have high fuel prices.


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    Walter

    “I would argue the Italian press is among the most unreliable and unprofessional in the West.”

    Personally I would argue that most Australian Journalists are among the most unreliable and unprofessional in the West. Even the PM knows this as it keeps her in her job!!


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    Kevin Moore

    If the Banks financing governments can type into a computer numbers which have no value and call it money, and can print rectangular pieces of plastic with different numbers on them at the cost of cents, then why do governments pledge the labour and heritage of their countries citizenry to the banks to obtain their costless ‘money’ at compound interest?

    Why did Australia’s best men lose their lives in war? If only they could see how the banks have taken over this country by deception? What would they say to us?

    Protesters blame politicians for their sorry plight,but it would be much better if they knew where the root of the problem lay. Is there a politician in Australia brave enough to tell the truth about money, Ron Paul style?


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      Kevin Moore

      After writing the above I thought of Barnaby Joyce and what he might have to say at Barnaby is Right.com.

      RBA officials investment in rental properties is to my mind significant.

      “….Interestingly, it appears that Reserve Bank officials are the keenest investors in rental properties. “We are not sure whether to be relieved or concerned that of the five central bankers who were brave enough to note their occupation on their tax form, all five had an investment property!”, the report says. “Of the 200 occupations classified by the Australian Tax Office, the employees at the Reserve Bank topped the list with respect to their investment property exposure.”


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        Kevin Moore

        According to the debt clock posted on Barnaby’s site, every Australian owes the RBA $16,586.00. I presume then if the RBA wanted the debt repaid tomorrow we would have to declare bankruptcy. But then again I think we have been bankrupt for a long time.

        http://www.debtclock.com.au/


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    Rereke Whakaaro

    Perhaps we should be a little more moderate in the application of moderation.

    I have to work around censorship of one form or another during my working day. And in fact, one of the interesting observations about the topic of this thread is the lack of coverage in the international MSM about the protests in Sicily. Censorship of a very serious and worrying kind.

    People go off-topic because they have nothing useful to contribute to the current subject, and sometimes nothing useful to contribute at all. My grandmother used to say that empty vessels make the most noise, and that certainly applies to the trolls we get here – especially now the quality of trolling has dropped through the floor – we only deserve the B-team reserves? Gimme a break.

    But however bad and inept they are, I still do not advocate arbitrarily removing them (or anybody else for that matter). Let’s leave that to the Cook and Bottlewasher over on SepticScience.

    (What I snipped out was completely useless for discussion.We allow for some off topic discussions and that has been allowed for a long time.But we have one person who has been completely off topic every single time in this thread. This in return has caused some unproductive off topic replies.I had to stop it) CTS


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      Mark D.

      Rereke, I seldom disagree with you and I don’t really disagree here except to point out some alternate reasoning.

      From what I’ve read here over the years, I gather that the Mods are volunteer. I also gather that posts from new bloggers are held in moderation. I imagine that there are a significant number of new troll posts that never make it through this first level of “censorship”. I’m paranoid enough to even imagine that some of the “quality trolls” take on alternate persona and even feed themselves. A few smarter ones slip in quietly at first. This observation is my own, after reading several commenters with very similar styles come in, get snipped first, eventually they are permanently moderated. Then they (or someone sounding just like them) appear as a fresh new avatar and start over.

      I have to commend Jo, and the moderators even if I think they sometimes “over prune”. Anyone who’s worked around fruit trees knows it is very important to prune and the fruit borne is better for it. I have to believe the same concept applies to blogs.

      I’ve posted off topic stuff, I’ve even been “snipped” for bad language (besides speklling that is). I don’t think we need to take it as personal. As I wondered above, perhaps the Mods were seeing something else that we aren’t privy to. Those of us whom are firm in our convictions need not become upset when we are caught up in a house keeping matter. A clean house (not sterile) is usually more comfortable right?.

      (sorry for mixing metaphors)


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        BobC

        One common trolling technique (seen on completely unmoderated sites) is to take over the site and make it very unpleasant for anyone else to contribute. A moderate amount of moderation is probably necessary here to avoid that.

        If such is being attempted here, it is an indication of how threatened they are by this site.

        (If Jo was the sole moderator.She would have not written up many blog entries and the flow of comments would be few because everyone’s comment would have to be approved.Believe it when I say that having a number of volunteer mods around help greatly increases your positive posting experience.It really does because you can post freely here BECAUSE Jo feels comfortable knowing her mods will watch and stop those few bad comments.Therefore there are no restriction to post except for a first time post that is by administrator’s decision put into the pending bin) CTS

        Like Mark D said, we probably don’t know the real scope of trolling attempts.


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    pat

    i recommended a book “Extreme Money” by Satyajit Das on an earlier thread. having finished it, i would add that it is evident from which journalists he quotes favourably, that he is more on the left than on the right, but don’t let that put u off reading it. he makes mention of “climate change” in the book, and it seems he believed in CAGW at the time of writing the book, but he strongly points out that trading in carbon is just another scam for the banksters etc.

    richard fidler had him on for an hour on ABC which i heard last nite. when he brings up the carbon scam, Fidler does not pursue the topic at all. however, after Fidler and Das REPEATEDLY say that no politician will ever tell the public the truth about the financial mess we are now in and what must be done about it (RON PAUL, GUYS???), Fidler finally, towards the end of the conversation, mentions Paul by saying he wants to make the US isolationist on foreign policy (which has nothing to do with the topic they were discussing), and that Paul wants to bring back the Gold Standard (WRONG AGAIN). Das, sadly, responds with the MSM/Republican Party mantra that no way will Ron Paul be the candidate and that we will not be going back to the Gold Standard, which means he is not au fait with Paul’s position either:

    AUDIO: 30 Jan: ABC Conversations: Richard Fidler with Satyajit Das
    Satyajit Das is one of the world’s leading experts in derivatives and risk management.
    He’s worked in financial markets for over 30 years, and consults to banks and investors.
    Das is full of scathing criticism for most financial institutions, political leaders and their central banks; he says the giant international financial machine that has been built up means everything in life has been converted into monetary form, or ‘financialised’.
    And that, says Das, is not a good thing – for any of us.
    Extreme Money: The Masters of the Universe and the Cult of Risk, published by Penguin.
    http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2012/01/30/3418519.htm?site=conversations

    Wikipedia: Ron Paul
    While Paul believes the longterm decrease of the U.S. dollar’s purchasing power by inflation is attributable to its lack of any commodity backing, he does not endorse a “return” to a gold standard – as the U.S. government has established during the past – but instead prefers to eliminate legal tender laws and to remove the sales tax on gold and silver, so that the market may freely decide what type of monetary standard(s) there shall be.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul

    Ron Paul for President.


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    pat

    another CAGW scam biting the dust…

    31 Jan: Financial Times: Tesco steps back on carbon footprint labelling
    by Louise Lucas and Pilita Clarke
    Tesco, Britain’s biggest supermarket and an early champion of the green revolution, is to ditch its plan to emblazon all its products with a carbon footprint label because the message is too complicated…
    In comments that caught the industry unawares, Helen Fleming, climate change director, told The Grocer magazine that Tesco was phasing out the labels because they took several months’ work to calculate and take-up among other retailers was slow…
    The supermarket group added: “While no final decision has yet been made, customers have told us that they find the labelling difficult to understand and so we are currently considering a range of options as to how we communicate what is often a complex message in a way that is easily understood.”…
    David Metcalfe, chief executive of Verdantix, an analyst firm that advises companies on environmental and energy strategies, said: “What we are seeing is the end of all the hopeful climate change strategies that were highlighted in 2007, when everyone had a lot of money,” said.
    “I wouldn’t criticise Tesco for stopping this because no retailer anywhere in the world has found this a successful way of engaging consumers.”…
    http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/96fd9478-4b71-11e1-a325-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1l0n0CdOF


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    memoryvault

    “Is this the beginning of the Euro Spring”?

    Doubtful.

    Judging from recent geo-political developments it’s more likely to be the beginning of the Global Winter aka WWIII.

    .
    WWIII will simultaneously solve the European and US (manufactured) debt crises, and the attendant civil strife, including the protests in Europe, and the Tea Party and “Occupy” movements in the US;

    It will “solve” the problem of all the worthless “money” that has recently been flooded into the system as debt, destroying the value of all existing assets and savings;

    It will put an end to the phony, and more importantly, failed CAGW “crisis” and let governments everywhere off the hook;

    It will probably put an end to the “two-tier” economy here in OZ, ensuring everybody is equally poor;

    It will probably lead to the implementation of some form of international, global governance; and

    It will assist (in combination with what has already been done in the name of CAGW coupled with a cooling climate) in killing off maybe two billion people or more, thereby “solving” both the over-population “problem”, AND providing an excuse to tack another couple of decades onto the advent of the mythical “Peak Oil” tale.

    .
    What’s not to like? (sarc\off).

    .
    As we speak, the USS Enterprise, the oldest of the US fleet of nuclear carriers, and previously marked for decommissioning this year – at an estimated cost of $500 million – is instead sailing into the middle of the main tension area between US-Israel, and Iran.

    Iran has submarines in the area, as does the US, and Israel. If the USS Enterprise now gets torpedoed and sunk (regardless of by whom), it will kick off WWIII nicely, AND solve the $500 million “problem” of decommissioning and disposing of eight aging nuclear reactors.


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      BobC

      memoryvault;

      The only reason that WWIII hasn’t already started is that, for the last 65 years, the US has been supplying Europe’s defense. If they had their own armed forces (I mean, ones capable of actual national defense) they would have started a major war by now, like they have every 30 years for centuries.

      Neither China nor Russia will start WWIII over anything that happens in the Middle East — I think that this is clear from their actions during the Cold War. (Unlike the leaders of Iran, they’re not insane.)

      There are no armed forces in the Middle East (except maybe Israel’s) capable of fighting a “World War” for more than about 48 hours.

      So, there will be no “WWIII”.


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        wes george

        I totally agree with BobC.

        The US has enforced a Pax Americana since WWII and the positive effects of this are literally immeasurable since we can’t know what mischief Europeans and others might have gotten up too if America had followed the foreign policy of isolationism of which Ron Paul advocates.

        For instance, South East Asia would be a remarkably different place if the US had not drawn the line in the sand with Vietnam. No matter how poorly that war was conducted it really did discourage the advance of communism into Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines.

        In a similar way the botched US efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan have had a powerful and positive effect on the middle east in the sense that no dictatorship is considered invincible any longer. The Arab Spring wouldn’t have spread from Tunisia into the Middle East if the American influence didn’t exist. Even the technology that made the Arab Spring possible is American. Of course, to suggest the so-called “war criminal” George Bush’s foreign policy set the stage for the Arab Spring is heresy, but its also true.

        Taiwan would be a Chinese province if the Americans hadn’t insisted otherwise. Not to mention South Korea only exists thanks to the US. We could go around the world and find similar examples of US hegemony promoting peace, stability, democracy and free market capitalism.

        We tend to measure America foreign policy by its mistakes not its successes.

        I fully support the US carrier fleet flying the flag in the Persian Gulf. The way to deal with bullies is talk softly and carry a big stick.


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      crakar24

      As we speak, the USS Enterprise, the oldest of the US fleet of nuclear carriers, and previously marked for decommissioning this year – at an estimated cost of $500 million – is instead sailing into the middle of the main tension area between US-Israel, and Iran

      Ah the old lets blow it up and pretend the other guy did it trick hey………..of course this is not the first time governments have tried this. False flag attacks have been used throughtout the ages to trick the people into accepting a war for profit etc.

      In fact it happened just recently, remember the Sth Korean ship that was sunk apparently by those nasty Nth Koreans? The drum beats for war were banging loudly after a report was released claiming unequivocal evidence pointed to the Nth Koreans.

      Of course they did leave out one minor detail but once this was highlighted to the world the drums fell silent. The detail of course was that the Sth korean ship was sunk with a German made torpedo!!!!!!!!! WTF a German made torpedo!!!!!!!!!!!

      This minor excluded detail probably saved us from Korea MK11.


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    Kevin Moore

    There are shades of a magna-carta type moment.

    These are some of their demands:

    •The arrest of all corrupt politicians.
    •To reduce the number of parliamentarians
    •To remove the provincial bureaucracy, as most of these politicians
    have been there for over forty years.
    •To drastically cut the salaries and privileges of parliamentarians
    and senators
    •To restrict politicians two only two terms in office

    Politicians do not equate to King John.

    “The borrower is servant to the lender”, therefore the ‘Crown’ is the Rothschild financial empire, headquartered in the ‘City of London’.


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    J Knowles

    If I was an Italian politician I’d be concerned about copy-cat blockades in other regions. Given that I’d probably be shagging some teenager or taking bribes or running a cozy deal with some Helga in her bar or ‘paying off’ certain press editors, or all of the above at once, it’s hardly surprising that we’ve seen little of this protest the MSM.


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      J Knowles

      Perhaps that’s a bit savage. The current government does contain many people with academic qualifications and good intent but it’s hard to keep the small business class happy when the nation is so dictated-to by debt. A smart politician would work to keep food on tables and cheap energy supplies available for the economy to turn freely.


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        Dave

        JK

        That’s nailed it on the head!

        A smart politician would work to keep food on tables and cheap energy supplies available for the economy to turn freely

        None of them have done this – they have been too busy KRudding all around the world investigating Renewable Energy Schemes! I think I am getting a strange feeling, that maybe Australia is following Italy etc!


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    Dave

    What percentage of the economic downfall can be allocated to “Renewables” in Italy?

    These are some raw statistics on energy pricing and info regarding Italy.

    Energy Source, Price, Rank in EU re price
    Unleaded, €1.727, 1st(highest)
    Diesel, €1.669, 1st (highest)
    Natural Gas, €0.796, 2nd (after Sweden)
    Electricity, €0.2041, 5th highest
    Electricity Industry, €0.1478, 3rd after Malta & Cyprus
    Fuel Taxes, €1.016, 1st (highest) this is bad considering it retails at €1.727
    Feed in Rebate, €0.2 to €0.4 depending on renewable, 1st (highest)
    Net Importing of Energy, 164.6Mtoe, 2nd (After Germany)
    Kyota Target 2012, – 55.8Mt CO2-eq, 6th last in reduction abilabilty?

    Overall the performance of Italy in the cost of energy has hit huge amounts, unaffordable by the majority of the population. Greece and Spain have similar performance levels. Is the Green Revolution in CO2 tax a huge player in the instigation of the Pitchfork Movement? Maybe the bureaucracy that has been built around this fraud also contributes to the other 50% cost blowout factor?

    And what have they achieved? A debt ridden country, 6th last in CO2 reduction out of 27, and a bureaucracy higher than that of the 25 EU nations. 2nd LAST – how do the populace feel?

    All of these statistics have been taken from Europe’s Energy Portal


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    Mark

    Well I wonder how much of the Oz “meejah” will report this apart from radio 2GB

    http://www.thegwpf.org/best-of-blogs/4867-germanys-top-environmentalist-turns-climate-sceptic.html

    A leading disciple abandons the “faith”.


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    theRealUniverse

    The new Italian PM and the new Greek PM are stooge planted puppets of the IMF banksters set up to introduce draconian austerity to the Greece and Italy the rest to follow. AUD now up to 80 EUcent was 75..and going up (or down if your are the euro).


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    David

    Its an interesting development – considering the Italian propensity for shoulder-shrugging while ordering another espresso….
    Don’t get me wrong – the Italians are lovely people, but they have an attitude to politics which makes ‘laissez-faire’ seem positively dynamic…
    I am reminded of a pivotal moment in Europolitics (although which one escapes me) a few years ago, when the whole future of Europe was suspended by a thread – with the UK in its usual position of splendid isolation, and dependent on Italy supporting our stance. However, the Italian Foreign Minister decided to change sides and the vote (whatever it was) went through.
    Our late night ‘attack dog’ Jeremy Paxman, in the programme Newsnight, got the Italian Minister on a screen, and said: ‘Minister, why did you change sides..?’
    To which the reply was : ‘Well – we didn’t want to cause any trouble..’
    European politics writ large….


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    Catamon

    Interesting, a post on useless media. The Italians have had a few years of bunga bunga Berlusconi with his neat combination of media control an political position so its not surprising if their MSM is perhaps, slightly more pathetic that ours.

    But fear not, Gina to the rescue!!

    Maybe she’s going to try a Berlusconi??


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    The science and censorship comments have been moved to “Unthreaded Weekend”.
    The inflammatory, repeat comments, dragged from a different thread entirely have been snipped.
    Temp needs to self edit, post carefully, and now has to wait for moderation on all his comments.

    For those wondering, sorry things got messy. I asked the volunteer editors to be a bit firmer this week, in keeping people to topic and stopping the inflammatory thread hijack attempts – things based on wild exaggeration – transplanted far from the original quote — that meaningless diversions. I’m very grateful to the volunteer mods (especially CTS tonight and this month).

    Unfortunately moving comments from thread to thread and snipping manually used up the only spare hour I had today, and that’s why I insist commenters must self edit. I’d much rather write a post than edit someone else’s comments.

    What’s the fastest way to lose the right to post freely here?
    Ans: Be an anonymous chicken and waste my time or the moderators.

    Jo


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    Bruce of Newcastle

    Some Italians have taken to rebelling in an interesting way. This from UK Telegraph:

    “Italians desperate to beat the taxman are smuggling undeclared cash into the tiny republic of San Marino in their underwear and shoes.”


    I feel a song coming on…


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    Catamon

    http://grogsgamut.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/drum-piece-and-national-press-club-rant.html

    So there are some parts of the “media” who actually do tell it how it is here.


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    Ian Wright

    The passing reference at the head of this story to the media ignoring The Convoy of No Confidence in Australia last year is just nonsense. It received extensive coverage in the print and electronic media. Given the small numbers who actually participated I’d argue it was seriously over-reported in the media.


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    Crakar24

    [snip responding to snipped - jo]


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    Eddy Aruda

    I do not believe in capital punishment, per se. I do believe society has a right to protect itself and I believe in the rule of law. I do believe in capital punishment for crimes against humanity. When political leaders murder innocent people by the millions they must be held accountable and should face justice.

    And quit worrying temp, it’s not like I am a warmanista advocating Nuremberg style trials for those who simply disagree with the status quo.

    If I recall Jo said in a prior post that this is where it ends. Jo cuts everybody, especially me, a lot of slack. You may try showing a little respect to Jo. Her forbearance is not limitless


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    Temp

    {snip. Temp I asked you to stop – Jo]


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