JoNova

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Another skeptical mind: Revered wine science expert writes skeptical book to rave reviews

The message just can’t be stopped.

Wine Terrior and Climate Change

What makes a leader of a field, a leader? They have a brain, and not always, but sometimes, they can reason. So it’s not surprising that some leaders see through the fog. Here’s another example of how the truth gets out. It’s a specialist field, and newspaper stories are all doom and gloom (eg. Climate change threat to Australia’s top wines! ) but one of its most esteemed leaders is saying emphatically: not so.

“The effects of climate change have been dramatically over-estimated. Future global climate change caused by human activity will be much less than feared and be largely benign for viticulture”. “The 21st Century will be wine’s golden age”.

In viticulture, tiny changes in levels of part-per-trillion molecules produce prizewinners (or not). See Croser’s review to appreciate just how much. They don’t just talk in degrees but the number of days involved.

“…the quantum and quality of the tertiary aroma and flavour compounds synthesised is profoundly influenced by atmospheric temperature.    John Gladstones identifies the optimal mean temperature of the last 30 days of ripening for the synthesis of flavour and pigment in red varieties as 18-22ºC and for the best attributes of delicate white and sparkling wines the mean can be as low as 12-15ºC”

Here is one of their own greats staking his reputation on the skeptical side. About a third of the book is about climate change, and John Gladstones writes prize winning books of almost biblical fame in the vineyard industry. According to one winery blogger, Gladstones’ 1992 book — the highly acclaimed Viticulture and Environment –became THE essential resource book, above almost all others. Gladstones is a leading agricultural scientist, winning prizes for his work on breeding, agronomy, and botany.  The famous Margaret River wine growing region (here in WA) was set up because Gladstones recommended it.

His new book  Wine, Terroir and Climate Change (Wakefield Press) is garnering excellent reviews, and here’s the thing: his message on climate change is well researched, clear, and unapologetic — man-made effects have been exaggerated, and the effects of extra CO2 are largely beneficial. He’s 79, and not going to waste time pandering to silly fashions.

And so the message spreads to a wider crowd.

Gladstones’ eminent role in the profession means for that specific audience, and for the array of dedicated wine buffs who will read it too, being skeptical now has cachet, approval, and a well written specific document to reference.

The book, and Gladstones himself, is earning raves:

‘Just when I thought I had it all sorted after 18 years of travelling with Viticulture and Environment and giving a copy to all of my friends, the grand old renaissance man of viticulture has produced Wine, Terroir and Climate Change. Not only do I have to buy a whole new set of his books to give away, I have to rethink my long term viticultural strategy of defence against climate change in the much more comfortable logic he presents of the resilience of terroir. John Gladstones’s intricately researched understanding of climate mechanisms and history, geology, soil and biology has created a welcome antidote to climate hysteria.’ - Brian Croser

 ‘For anyone interested in the future interaction between climate, climate change and viticulture, this book simply has to be read. Dr John Gladstones’s painstaking research is the foundation for his equally carefully constructed conclusions that robustly challenge mainstream opinions. - James Halliday

 

One reviewer, Phillip White , is evidently more convinced by the IPCC forecasts and doesn’t like Gladstones thesis, but such is Gladstones’ standing,  White admits he’ll have to read it and reread it anyway

“I’ve always regarded Gladstones as a genius, if a happily troubled one. He’s a grand godfather of modern Australian viticultural science, whose previous bible, Viticulture and Environment has been my constant reference companion for the last two decades. Gladstones’ new work needs to be read many, many times to be digested and understood as thoroughly as it deserves. I shall no doubt be doing this, especially as an errant plunge ahead into the second half, Climate Change, reveals that over the last century, or century and a half, Gladstones believes that “of about 0.6ºC recorded temperature rise, half can be ascribed to variations in solar irradiance and magnetic field, and the rest probably to anthropogenic [human] causes. But much of the latter can be shown to derive from mistakes and biases in the thermometer record … ”

“Great brain porridge here, if a little Plimerish at first sniff. “

White promised to write more on our friend and his hero Gladstones, but I have yet to find it on his voluminous, reasonably entertaining blog. Hmmm. Did he tackle those hard chapters?

For the wine-science buffs, Croser’s review of the book is excellent, and among other things you get the details on just how important plain old temperature is — apparently low diurnal variation could be a winner, so clouds might be handy?

A central argument of the book is that regional/site differences in heat summation and temperature equability largely define site suitability…

John Gladstones’s argument for the importance of the temperature equability (low daily temperature range) of a site, feeds into the aroma and flavour story. The low day temperatures at moderate humidity favour the direct synthesis of these aroma and flavour compounds and the accumulation of sugars as starch during the day. At night the surplus assimilate is translocated to the berries as sugar the substrate for aroma, flavour and phenol formation during the warm nights. The warm nights of temperature equable sites potentially allow 24 hour synthesis of aroma, flavour and phenols essential to wine quality (page 26).

Flavour formed in the berry skins at night has the least possibility of evaporative loss and the maximum possibility of being conjugated with sugar and transported to the interior of the berry where it is protected against degradation and evaporation (page47).

Winestate has just issued a feature on Gladstones’ book — treating the climate part essentially as you would expect for a journalist — back in the days when the term was not a bad name. In other words, without fanfare or wild sensationalism, they just report the news — climate change is not much of a problem, could turn out to be good, read the book eh?

Blogspotting: Reviewer Brian Croser wrote another post which mentioned a lecture by Andy Pitman, discussed past temperature range in wine-growing regions of Australia, and got a reply in comments not just from Pitman himself, but also from Brian Schmidt (the recent Nobel Prize winner of astronomy) who — as it happens — has a vineyard himself near Canberra. They get into some pretty detailed analysis of how you count up the warm days and cool days per month in each region. Averages are not enough if you are discussing the growth of cab-savs and shiraz.

Wine, Terroir and Climate Change (Wakefield Press)

H/t Geoff Derrick — Thanks!

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Another skeptical mind: Revered wine science expert writes skeptical book to rave reviews, 8.7 out of 10 based on 75 ratings

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174 comments to Another skeptical mind: Revered wine science expert writes skeptical book to rave reviews

  • #
    Lawrie

    Age and experience trumps fashion and ignorance. At what stage will climate scientists realise that we need to research how to adapt to rather than control climate. It is becoming more obvious that climate is driven by everything other than CO2 and that controlling emissions will have no effect. Money spent on dams and weirs would have better long term benefits than the wasteful expenditure on wind turbines and would also be more beneficial to the environment and the economy. We need more realists with knowledge debunking the crap from the climate alarmists.


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    • #
      Tom

      Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers. The prospect of domination of the nation’s scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present – and is gravely to be regarded. Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.

      President Dwight D. Eisenhower, farewell address to the nation, January 17, 1961.


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  • #
    DougS

    Let’s raise our glasses and drink a toast to John Gladstones!


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  • #

    In vino veritas …

    Pointman


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    • #
      The Black Adder

      Gday Pointman,

      Always enjoy your posts.

      What the hell is …In vino veritas … mean for a half pissed aussie who has had too much for xmas. Hic.

      Happy New Year. :)


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  • #
    Dave

    Great article – and also relevant to the previous media post:

    Here we have Prof Snow Barlow of Uni of Melbourne, QUOTE:

    Wine growers, whose produce is vulnerable to climate change, will have two choices, You can either change the style of wine you make, or move.

    This chap is an expert (aka: JB, MattyB etc) but in a position of influence and an expert in Viticulture and Environment – yet totally opposite to opinions that are becoming obvious to many in the industry. He is also on many different CC government Gravy Train income streams http://piarn.org.au/news/2011/jul/11/snow-barlow-carbon-price-and-land-based-sector and many, many other departments. Search Google for this chap and you have the ultimate grape expert.

    White on the other hand admits he hasn’t even digested Gladstones work:

    Gladstones new work needs to be read many, many times to be digested and understood as thoroughly as it deserves. I shall no doubt be doing this

    Yet Nicky Phillips the Fairfax Science Reporter that did the linked article is of the same substance as White.

    Unfortunately the majority of people don’t care, and do believe the majority of these types of articles published in the MSM. The parasites including the involved scientists, reporters, government fools etc that continue this garbage are going to be held to account at a point in the future for their greed and stupidity.


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  • #
    John Brookes

    79. Emeritus syndrome.


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    • #
      memoryvault

      Superior cleverness reaches its apogee, John, when nobody else has a bloody clue what you’re talking about.

      After that it’s all downhill.


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    • #
      Neville

      JB not making much sense as per usual. But if you were growing wine grapes in the Margaret river area 130,000 years ago during the Eemian interglacial the temp would have been much higher than now.

      Sea levels in that MR area were probably 4 to 5 metres higher than at present and warmer with plenty of coral growing as well.

      In fact our Holocene interglacial is the coolest of the last 5 interglacials.

      Of course during the Eemian hippos swam in the Thames and the Rhine just 130,000 years ago.
      It’d be a touch chilly for a hippo today to be swimming in Europe during our much cooler Holocene.


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      • #
        Andrew McRae

        No! Neville you are not permitted to venture beyond the Holocene! It is of vital importance to the warmist consensus science case that rates of warming in the 20th century uh the last 50 years uh the period 1975 to 2005 are UNPRECEDENTED in the Holocene. Do not look at the man behind the curtain! Maurice Strong is a kind loving benificent Big Brother who only has your interests at heart. We have never had warming like today! We have never had CO2 levels rising like today! We have always been at war with Big Carbon. Prosperity is sin! The time for The Great Cleansing is upon us!

        Sorry, went OTT. I hear religious fervour does that.

        More recently I’ve begun to understand how warmists can keep believing what they believe. It’s because tests of global warming can be constructed in such a way as the theory passes the evidence test. For example, “exponentially increasing CO2 should create a linear warming, there is a linear warming trend that is the same pre-1950 as post 1950, therefore global warming is a real problem.” These seemingly straightforward proofs (ie “the evidence is all around us!”) are how the scam continues in the minds of the uncritical. Not to mention suppression of natural history, knowledge of which by Bayesian reasoning would tend to reduce the probability of both unending warming and disaster from warming.


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    • #
      warcroft

      After 20 seconds of Googling ‘Emeritus syndrome’ all I came across was the Intersex Society of North America.
      “Intersex” is a general term used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male. For example, a person might be born appearing to be male on the outside, but having mostly female-typical anatomy on the inside.

      Hmmm. . . something you would like to share John?


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    • #
      DougS

      It’s more likely that Jo got it right:

      He’s 79, and not going to waste time pandering to silly fashions.


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    • #
      Sea McHugh

      Hey John,

      Don’t knock emeritus. The day will come when your academic catastrophic manmade global warming will be remembered as the good ol’ days. Anyway, are you implying that orthodox climate science can only occur within an academic framework that includes vested interests, political forces, bullying, secrecy, data manipulation and groupthink? So be it.


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    • #
      Stephen Harper

      John Brookes reads Dr. Gladstone’s book from cover to cover, thinks very deeply then wows us with his towering intellect as he pronounces on the tome which can be paraphrased as: nothing to see here. Gladstone is too old.

      Yet another magisterial pronouncement by JB who yet again illustrates why the rest of us poor slobs just cannot match his peerless insights. I mean, how good is JB to have nailed it with so few words?(too old).

      Not.

      In fact, what JB really illustrates is the intellectual poverty and hypocrisy of the I-am-morally-superior-to-you left-wing brigade. You know, the nicey-nicey, PC-left who admonish all and sundry for being sexist, racist, classist, anything-ist including, yep, ageist!

      So, JB has nothing to say except a mean-spirited and unfounded swipe at a giant of a man on account of his age. Funny how all those morality rules don’t apply to the lost lefties who wrote them.


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  • #
    Otter

    ‘Future global climate change caused by human activity

    j brookes in three……. two………………………………………….. 1 3/4……………………………………………………….


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  • #
    Dave

    And some more garbage from the Grape Expectations of the scientific world.

    Green oranges and yellow tomatoes may be another thing that consumers will have to get used to, as climate change affects the colour and nutritional value of horticultural produce, says the book, released today.

    See http://www.smh.com.au/environment/grape-expectations-as-climate-change-bears-fruit-20100228-pb6i.html.

    Mark Howden, a CSIRO chief research scientist and an editor of Adapting Agriculture to Climate Change is most prominent in the article above.

    Quoted in the article above is the following:

    Two CSIRO scientists, Leanne Webb and Penny Whetton, also say in their chapter on horticulture that the sugar content and colour of citrus fruit is affected by warmer seasons, as they tend to ”re-green” and cannot be left on the tree as long. Capsicums and tomatoes can turn yellow if they experience high temperatures when ripening, they write.

    Leanne Webb is a student of Prof Snow Barlow – no surprise here!

    Amazing how Fairfax and the CSIRO are so in tune together – yet haven’t communicated with the industry itself – An industry that gives many millions of dollars toward research!

    The TIME is now for these fools to go!


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    • #
      agw nonsense

      have you seen the price of yellow caps in the supermarket


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    • #
      Jazza

      How odd!

      I know full well that even allowing for the degrees of temperature variations state to state, one can eat RED tomatoes grown locally in northern WA when one’s counterparts in Victoria are eating theirs,aka, when ripe!!

      This Cc malarkey is all BOLLOCKS!


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    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      Is that great intellect Snow Barlow still around? I thought he’d be well over the hill by this.

      Nevertheless, I bet the snow’s gone at least.


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  • #
    Dave

    JB

    The Survival of a Mathematician:
    From Tenure to Emeritus

    You are really lost! Shaking the wrong person at 79 maybe?

    Please read Gladstones work on Viticulture and Environment.


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  • #
    The Black Adder

    I grew up in a vineyard.

    It was the best time of my life (except for the Adelaide Crows winning 97,98 AFL flags).

    If JB had grown up in a vineyard, he too may realise there is a thing called the sun, which determines basically everything on this planet. The Sun determined how my dads grapes grew for the season. Certainly nothing to do with China burning some coal, or India burning some coal, or Newcastle burning some coal or JB Burning coal to create the energy to post a stupid post!!

    Greenies and Do-gooders have had far too much to say on Climate Change and what the poor old farmer can do about it!

    Oz is 1.3 or 1.4% of world CO2 Production. What the f#$k are we going on about?
    Like Tony in the last post, I am going blue….
    God Help Australia!

    PS. The best time of my life was my wedding, if my wife ever reads this!


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    Stephen Harper

    I was browsing in Dymocks Books just today in the science section and came across Dr. Gladstone’s book. I had a little look see at the section on climate change. Now Jo has done a whole post on the book on the same day so I get the message: I had better read the book properly.

    Although I can’t do a book review I can make some observations: Dr. Jon Gladstones, as the grand old man of Australian viticulture, has a secure place in history. Just one contribution – his identification of the Margaret River region as comparable to Bordeaux – alone sets him above most all those who have enriched Australian viti- and vinculture. But he is much more than that. He is an icon. Unheralded in the community at large it is true; but an icon in the wine industry nonetheless.

    And this is what is so fascinating. Gladstones the icon is an iconclast! He turns at least three notions of conventional wisdom on their respective heads in the book.

    He posits that for superior grape flavour a more equable diurnal temperature range is to be preferred to the warm days and cold nights (which virtue is extolled on many a back label or winegrowing textbook).

    He dumps on the worship of biodynamic viticulture as being akin to mysticism.

    And he goes against the grain by contradicting the gloom-mongers who would have us believe that winegrowing in Australia is under serious threat from climate change.

    Dr. Gladstones has a well-deserved reputation for scientific rigour. It will be hard for the doom-sayers to contradict his pronouncement that Australian winegrowing has little or nothing to fear from climate change. He is the least likely target imaginable for an ad hominem attack. He is an unlikely target on the basis of his scientific credentials. The climate change scaremongers will probably just ignore him and hope he goes away. But he will not; and his new book will not. That is the beauty of what he has done. Everyone with skin in the game of making wine in Australia will have to read this book (or they ought to). His views will become well known and perhaps a few more will see the light.

    I am not that optimistic though. I recall attending a wine tasting at a wonderful (Swan) Riverside location a few months back. I was tasting Woodlands wines (from Margaret River) and chatting to the second generation family owners. We were getting on famously until I mentioned how problematic the whole AGW issue was (and how they had little to worry about). I might as well have asked if I could have sex with their dog. Things went downhill fast. No fact or statistic I mentioned could even be considered. The arty, back-to-earth, humans-are-a-plague worldview of my interlocutors trumped all. I might as well have been speaking Sanskrit. (There are lots of lovely winemaking folk who are like the Woodlands people. So Dr. Gladstones will have a job converting them from their Gaia worship.)

    But all praise to Dr. Gladstones the iconoclast. He has shown that intellectual curiosity and integrity are amongst our highest ideals; and he has stared down the Establishment enforcers (who proclaim climate doom amd gloom) who will now find it just that little bit harder to pull the wool over our collective eyes.


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    • #
      grayman

      Stephen, next time you find yourself at a wine tasting and the subject comes up and they give you the same crap ask them what they think about their different wines of the past 20 years. Each year specifically and 96 to 99 and see what they say. I am quite sure they will tell you those were some of the better years. And probrably the 00 decade as well. Then get them to think about the temp correlation to good years. Just might get a few minds to thinking.


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    • #
      Winston

      We were getting on famously until I mentioned how problematic the whole AGW issue was (and how they had little to worry about). I might as well have asked if I could have sex with their dog. Things went downhill fast. No fact or statistic I mentioned could even be considered. The arty, back-to-earth, humans-are-a-plague worldview of my interlocutors trumped all.

      There you have it in a nutshell, Stephen….no correspondence entered into, case closed, no evidence needed. And “they” wonder why we of skeptical inclination believe them to be akin to pseudo-religious zealots, immune to reason or logic, closed minded and blindly faithful to a cause into which they have fully been indoctrinated, but in support of which they could barely elucidate a single fact. It’s as though the “educated” class have become so ignorant as to be seeking intellectual equivalence in their analytical thought to the most base and concrete thinkers of the uneducated masses.

      Even if AGW, or it’s psychotic brother CAGW, were in fact true (doubtful though that may be), IMO the loss of the ability to allow for a dichotomous approach to truth and reason is too high a price to pay for the supposed “saving” of the planet. It represents a Pyrrhic victory if there ever was one- the planet “saved” but at the cost of everything I deem precious in the human condition- the rational intellect, the intuition, the drive, the passion, the ambition, the ingenuity, the inspiration. I’d rather “fry” quite frankly than allow the ongoing stultification of my intelligence and my senses by the mind-numbing indoctrination of eco-zealotry and political correctness gone mad.

      Btw, those people also forgot their manners, a small point but as a guest allowing you your opinion is, or should be, common courtesy- alas, no longer common thanks to Dogma.


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  • #
    Jaymez

    Here in China there are so many websites I cannot access via my hotel provided WiFi. Thankfully Jo Nova’s is not one of them. Perhaps those sites which are critical of the Chinese Government are not accessible, but those critical of Western Governments are? Whatever the reason, it was good to read this article.

    Coincidentally, it is a wholly-owned subsidiary of a private Chinese company which is currently trying to buy out all shareholders in the largest unlisted vineyard and winery in WA. Clearly the Chinese company is not concerned about the future impact of climate change and are busy buying vineyards and wineries at or near the bottom of the market – just as they are other agricultural properties in Australia.

    My fellow shareholders who are selling out (a clear majority at this stage), are being suckered into a panic sale which has not been helped by the climate change scare.


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    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      Well, after having had far too much Great Wall red and Great Wall white in what was a seemingly endless round of toasts I can understand why the Chinese want to buy Margaret River.


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  • #

    White promised to write more on our friend and his hero Gladstones, but I have yet to find it on his voluminous, reasonably entertaining blog. Hmmm. Did he tackle those hard chapters?

    This reminds me of an argument we had six months ago. Until we can proxy the the volume of the atmosphere, we have no understanding of how much warming C02 is contributing to our atmosphere. My contention being that, as the sun warms(or we pump out more C02) the atmopshere it is more volumous, creating a greater buffer between the surface and outgoing radiation. Thereby increasing surface temperatures but, not increaseing average temperatures. Until we are accurately measuring atmospheric volume, the CAGW argument is dead in the water.


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  • #
    Graeme No.3

    It is a very good book. The section on global warming (a.k.a. climate change, climate disruption, raining green monkeys & red cats) is well expressed and easily understood by people smart enough to grow grapes and make wine. Obviously not JB though as he appears, to use the politically correct construction, scientifically and logically challenged.

    What Gladstones does do is cite a number of older studies which have been forgotten because they aren’t on computer search. Very interesting especially on sea level fluctuations. His age isn’t relevant except that he has vastly more knowledge than some Self Appointed Prophets of Doom.

    I recommend the book highly, worth purchasing even if you only read the section on climate.


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  • #
    Rereke Whakaaro

    This book has to be the best news of 2011:

    a) It is written by somebody who is well respected in their field;

    b) It is based in science, and not propaganda or opinion that can just be dismissed. Gainsayers are going to have to demonstrate that John Gladstones is wrong.

    And best of all;

    c) It goes right to the heart of the “tree-luvvie” society – wine is so organic, you see. It is a gift from Gaia. It is what they sip whilst fantasising about the demise of western civilisation.

    This book will become a thundering great elephant in the room for the Gaia-worshipers, and one that cannot be ignored. It reinforces the uncomfortable idea that even organically grown and produced products (including wine) are dependent upon rigorous scientific principles. And in this case, rigorous science that says that their world view is wrong.


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    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Rereke,

      All true! But from now on I’ll not be able to enjoy a glass of wine without worrying about how global warming may have adversely affected the crop. Is nothing sacred anymore? /sarc off ;-)


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  • #

    The book is a good contribution but -

    It’s up against the UN’s education revolution -

    http://robertmuller.org/rm/R1/About_WCC.html

    “….Today I can only praise the United Nations for having taught me the truth and the real facts: the Earth which is my home, humanity which is my family, our place in time and the dignity and miracle of individual human life. This is why I made these United Nations teachings into a world core curriculum which should bless every school and child on Earth. A different world, the true world, a more beautiful, miraculous, astonishing world and humanity, and not the dissected world created by nations emerge from it.

    I urge all educators and governments to have a look at this curriculum. It is not the product of my mind, but of the United Nations, the recent first universal organization which thinks for the entire planet and humanity.

    An educator wrote to me: “Through your world core curriculum, the world’s teachers can now have access to the soul of every man, woman and child on this planet.” I hope this will be the case……”


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    • #

      Addendum:

      http://revolutionaryharry.blogspot.com/2011/11/entire-humanity-must-be-reprogrammed.html#more

      “….It really can’t be emphasised enough how one of the key elements of the agenda is to indoctrinate the young, worldwide whilst simultaneously distracting, dividing, and demoralising the older generations. Anything to prevent organised, cogent, resistance until the older generation slowly either loses heart or dies off altogether.

      It staggers me that something like the World Core Curriculum has never seriously been exposed or debated in the mainstream media. It’s worth posting again this quote from Muller’s preface to the WCC, with additional comment from Gary Kah’s, ‘The New World Religion’.
      “… [t]his institution, although commonly referred to as The Robert Muller School, is officially a branch of The School of Ageless Wisdom, founded in 1974 by Gloria Crook, a[n Alice] Bailey admirer and one of Muller’s close friends. The fact that this school draws heavily from the teachings of Alice Bailey is plainly revealed in the preface of the WCC Manual…: ‘The World is indebted to Dr. Robert Muller, former Assistant Secretary General of the United Nations,…for the formulation of the World Core Curriculum in its skeleton form. It is upon that scaffold combined with the ageless wisdom teachings that this present work has precipitated. The underlying philosophy upon which The Robert Muller School is based will be found in the teachings set forth in the books of Alice A. Bailey by the Tibetan teacher, Djwhal Khul (published by Lucis Publishing Co.).’…. The Robert Muller School has served as a type of testing ground for The World Core Curriculum and the teachings of Alice Bailey…[and] has been certified as the United Nations Associated School… As difficult as it may be to believe, the U.N.’s global education of the future is being openly modeled after the teaching of a Luciferic trance-channeler and her demonic spirit guide.”


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      • #
        Llew Jones

        Interesting about the late Robert Muller. He also of course was into the mystical evolution of Teilhard De Chardin as opposed to the scientific variety of Darwin.

        Here are the musings of an engineer who is a bit of a philistine as far as the philosophy and history of religion is concerned.

        Pantheism and animism are ancient natural religions which not only were universal but also dominated Greek philosophical thought and later the intellectual culture of the Roman Empire.

        What we are witnessing now in the UN and in science and education generally is a return to those ancient ideas which are formative in Lovelock’s Gaia hypothesis and very probably, et al, are a catalyst for AGW alarmism in that pantheism insists on the fine balance and interactive nature of all things in determining Earth’s environment including its climate.

        Haven’t done any googling yet to see if anyone has tried to but I don’t think it would be too hard to show that the tremendous advances in science and its applications that occurred in the Western world, during the interlude between the dominance of pantheistic religion, was due to the dominance of the Judeo/Christian paradigm in its intellectual thought. Its theism is powerfully and unashamedly anthropocentric. That is, that religion tells us that this Earth is nothing more or less, as Eddy informed us, than a lump of rock and it aint got a soul. Nor has anything else, animate or inanimate in that paradigm with the exception of humans who, alone, are made in the image of a transcendent (not a part of nature) god.

        Which brings us to Dr. Gladstone and J.B’s 79 YO geriatric. Perhaps he is just old enough to have been influenced by that paradigm, atheist or not, which is now rapidly diminishing as it is being replaced by pantheism in the sciences as well as in our halls of learning.


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        • #

          If I may pick on one point, the terms Judaism and Christianity are inconguous and should not be linked together.


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            Llew Jones

            Thanks for that. Yes Judaism and Christianity, as you say, have fundamental differences. I do note that Judeo/Christian in the historic American usage takes on an extended meaning beyond my use of the expression.

            My use of the term Judeo/Christian was in terms of the acceptance by Christianity of the Hebrew bible or Old Testament in its entirety, which of course is a library of anthropocentrism and thus includes the cultural mandate. Which mandate is expressed in the first book of the Jewish Torah, called Genesis?

            Those aspects of “Judeo”/Christian thought it seems to me are what defined the freedom for the application of the great scientific discoveries of that age into technologies that benefited humans in so many ways i.e. because of the cultural acceptance of that “Judeo”/Christian paradigm such developments were unhindered by the constraints of pantheism and animism

            (The other dependency of Christianity on the Hebrew bible has to do with its soteriology. The only bible the early Christians had was the Hebrew or “Jewish” bible. It is from those writings that the founder of Christianity is identified as the fulfillment of all the OT promises as the foretold Messiah. So without that “Judeo” part there can be no Christianity. But that is not even the Christian contribution I had in mind but certainly is the point of antagonism between Judaism and Christianity).


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            Roy Hogue

            Just a short comment to point out that Jesus was, in fact, a Jew. Moreover, Christians — at least those who actually understand their Christian heritage — consider themselves to be adopted Jews. Christianity stands on the foundation of Judaism and Christians are the beneficiaries of God’s covenant with the Jews by virtue of Jesus death on the cross. It is indeed proper and correct to link the two.


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            Roy Hogue

            Ephesians, chapter 1, verse 5 is the reference for adopted Jews that I couldn’t remember at first. The wording may vary according to the translation but the essential meaning remains the same. Mind you, this is the apostle Paul, a Jew, writing.

            It occurs to me to say that Jesus never founded Christianity and you will not find that word in connection with anything he said. It was not until many years after his death that the name Christian first appeared. He was Messiah to the Jews and all his followers were Jews, even Paul, a later convert and originally a persecutor of believers was a Jew.

            I don’t know how Christianity can be separated from Judaism.


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            As much as I hate the idea of arguing points with you Roy,I could not let the above slide by without comment.

            Firstly Paul was of the country of Judea but of the tribe of Benjamin [Philippians 3:3-5]

            You say “Christianity rests on the foundation of Judaism…” Examples of refutations of that statement: “The Jewish Religion, Its Influence Today” by Elizabeth Dilling. And, “Judaism Discovered” by Michael Hoffman.

            In the King James Bible, ‘Christian’ can be found in – Acts 26:28, 1Peter 4:16, Acts 11:26.

            Paul said: “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly….But he is a Jew which is one inwardly….in the spirit…..whose praise is not of men but of God.” [Romans 2:28-29}


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            Roy Hogue

            Four points:

            1. What I said was that you will not find the word Christian in connection with anything Jesus said. He never said it. I stand by that.

            2. I am well aware that Judaism does not regard Christianity as having any legitimacy. That being the case, how can you use texts on Judaism to prove any point about Christianity?

            3. Christianity would not exist without Judaism. The arrival of their Messiah was predicted in Jewish prophesy. At the time of Jesus ministry there was a virtual messianic fever going on. They knew when to expect Him. Some seized immediately on Him as their Messiah, mistakenly believing Him to be a great military or political leader who would free them from the Romans. He himself said He was the fulfillment of the Jewish law (I forget the exact words).

            4. You need to read your old and new testament and see what Christianity actually says about itself. You need an accurate history of those times for background. The Old Testament has been very carefully put together and kept with Christianity’s early documents for just one reason. It has been recognized as a necessary part of the whole picture. The new cannot stand without the old. Without God’s covenant with Abraham Jesus is just a foolish man who got himself killed for his arrogance. Without The Ten Commandments the same is true. He has no purpose without those things. You cannot understand Him without the Old Testament.

            Kevin, you’re a bible scholar. Why is it that you don’t recognize that everything Christ said and taught was right out of the Jewish law? The Jews understood that The Ten Commandments were summarized by: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul. And love your neighbor as you love yourself. Jesus reaffirmed that.

            Judeo and Christian ethics and morality are one and the same.

            By the way, your quote from Romans 2:28-29 supports me.


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            Lawrie

            As you are aware the word Christian means Christ like. Christ took the Jewish Bible, the old Testament, and put it in the modern context. He also took exception to the teachings of the priests who put emphasis on the procedure and observance of the law rather than the intent; paying lip service as it were. The most common examples being to publicly praise God while ignoring the plight of the sick and hungry. The tale of the good Samaritan comes to mind.

            Christ gave us two simple commandments; love God and love thy neighbour. It is impossible to do one without doing the other. The trappings of modern Christianity sometimes appears to be repeating history as man made rules tend to overshadow Christs simple message.

            The waste and evil inherent in the AGW scam and the worship of Gaia are anti Christian. Probably that is why Christianity is under attack by the Greens and other elitists including much of the ALP.


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            Roy Hogue -

            Rabbi Ben Zion Bokser wrote, “This is not an uncommon impression and one finds it sometimes among Jews as well as Christians – that Judaism is the religion of the Hebrew Bible. It is, of course, a fallacious impression. . . Judaism is not the religion of the Bible” (Judaism and the Christian Predicament, New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1967, p. 59).

            Rabbi Moshe M. Maggal, President, National Jewish Information Service wrote: “. . . you will notice the great difference between the Jewish and Christian religions. But these are not all. We consider the two religions so different that one excludes the other. . . we emphasized that there is no such thing as a Judeo-Christian religion. . . . There is not any similarity between the two concepts” (Letter of August 21, 1961).

            The London Jewish World of March 15, 1923 declared: “Fundamentally, Judaism is anti-Christian.”

            Rabbi Martin Siegel: “I am devoting my lecture in this seminar to a discussion of the possibility that we are now entering a Jewish century, a time when the spirit of the community, the non-idealogical blend of the emotional and rational and the resistance to categories and forms will emerge through the forces of anti-nationalism to provide us with a new kind of society. I call this process the Judaization of Christianity because Christianity will be the vehicle through which this society becomes Jewish” (New York Magazine, January 18, 1972, p. 32). word.htm


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            John Brookes

            It seems to me that the old testament provides a suitable history & mythology for a successful civilisation. If you look at the 10 commandments, they are pretty counterintuitive. I mean, why not covet my neighbours wife? What harm will it do? If someone wrongs me, why not murder them? Yet the rules nowadays seem eminently sensible. But I think back then they were revolutionary, and would have given any group of people who followed them an edge over others. Apart from the 10 biggies, there were many others, offering practical advice about avoiding food poisoning etc.

            Jesus came along, and saw a people hidebound by rules. Worse still, a people who followed the rules to the letter, but didn’t understand the spirit behind them. So he set about explaining not what you shouldn’t do, but what you should, and what your motivation should be. I’m not a Christian, but I’m very glad that people like Jesus existed, as their message was a vast improvement on what came before.


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          Roy -

          First let’s consider the claim we got our Bible and our religion from the Jews, as meaning Jews by religion. It is certain we didn’t get the New Testament from them, for it condemns the Jewish religion throughout all the New Testament. But did we get the Old Testament from them? No, for several reasons: in the first place, no Jew by religion existed before the return from the Babylonian captivity, shortly after 536 B.C. Their great historian Josephus writes, “So the Jews prepared the work. Jew is the name they are called by from the day that they came up from Babylon.” The only books of the Old Testament that were written after the return from Babylon are, Kings, Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah (all of them historical, rather than doctrinal) Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi. In none of these do the Jews receive anything but rebuke for their wickedness, for their apostasy from the religion of the Old Testament. The late Rabbi Stephen F. Wise, formerly the Chief Rabbi of the United States said, “The return from Babylon and the introduction of the Babylonian Talmud mark the end of Hebrewism and the beginning of Judaism.”

          The learned Rabbi was correct in distinguishing the true religion of the Old Testament as Hebrewism for it was the religion of the real Hebrews, who were not Jews at all. Judaism, the religion of the Jews, is as the learned Rabbi says, based upon the Babylonian Talmud, which contains the supposed oral law. It was never reduced to writing as part of the Bible. This oral law gradually gained greater force among the Jews than the written law in the Bible, with which it often conflicted in Jesus’ day, the Babylonian Talmud was known as the Tradition of the Elders.

          This is why Jesus told the Jews:
          “Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoreth Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. Howbeit, in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men. For laying aside the commandments of God that ye may keep your own tradition, ye make the Word of God of none effect through your tradition which ye have delivered” (Mark 7:6-13). “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God” (Matthew 22:29).

          “Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites! for ye pay tithes of mint, anise and cumin and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith” (Matthew 23:23).


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            Roy Hogue

            Kevin,

            You juggle legal niceties like lawyer. And then here we go with this.

            Rabbi Martin Siegel: “I am devoting my lecture in this seminar to a discussion of the possibility that we are now entering a Jewish century, a time when the spirit of the community, the non-idealogical blend of the emotional and rational and the resistance to categories and forms will emerge through the forces of anti-nationalism to provide us with a new kind of society. I call this process the Judaization of Christianity because Christianity will be the vehicle through which this society becomes Jewish” (New York Magazine, January 18, 1972, p. 32). word.htm

            It’s now 2012 and that was written in 1972. Has it happened? I don’t know but I see no evidence of it. Can it happen? I don’t think that kind of ideal well homogenized society is within human nature to accomplish. In any case, it seems irrelevant to the conversation here.

            I agree that Jesus said what you quote. What I don’t see is that it shoots down my position. Remember, this is a Jew taking to Jews from a Jewish perspective. I don’t know how much more plain it can be.

            Enough said. Peace!


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            Allow me the last word – something to think about:

            Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?” Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” (John 18:35-36)

            Since it was now clear that Pilate was merely repeating the charge of the Jewish leaders, Jesus answered his question. He was a king, but not a political ruler intent on challenging Rome’s rule. “My kingdom is not of (Greek ek; “out from the midst of”) this world,” He declared. Its source was not the world system, nor did Jesus derive His authority from any human source. As noted earlier, He had rejected the crowd’s attempt to crown Him king. He also passed up an opportunity to proclaim Himself king at the triumphal entry, when He rode into Jerusalem at the head of tens of thousands of frenzied hopefuls.


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            Roy Hogue

            I guess then that I can safely toss out the Old Testament section of my Bible. It’s obviously of no use. That surely will help my arthritis by making the book much lighter.

            Have a happy and prosperous 2012.

            Roy


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            Roy,

            There is a difference between law and grace.The old and new testaments teach us this. As Jesus said – If you knew Moses you would know Me,for he wrote of Me.


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            Roy Hogue

            There is a difference between law and grace.The old and new testaments teach us this. As Jesus said – If you knew Moses you would know Me,for he wrote of Me.

            Kevin,

            Exactly my point. And why was grace necessary? Because we could not follow the law. And what does grace accomplish for us? It makes the original covenant that God made with Abraham available to us, who otherwise could not attain it by following laws.

            I submit that you cannot understand Jesus without his very Jewish background and mission. He claimed to be the fulfillment of the law he condemned the Jews for not folowing.

            Since you quote what you did, how many years before Jesus appearance was the plan in motion so Moses could write of it?

            Christianity becomes a joke if it doesn’t stand on the foundation of the covenant with Abraham and The Ten Commandments.

            And now we must have tried Joanne’s patience to near the breaking point. So I think we should quit.


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            I made the point that Talmudism [Judaism - Communism] is the antithesis of Christianity.


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        Len

        Here we have the National Curriculum pushed by current the Labor government. Senator Ron Buswell on examining it, said it sounded like the Marxist Manifesto


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      Rereke Whakaaro

      Mao Tse-Tung (or Mao Zedong, if you prefer) has already tried that.. His book was little and red, and can still be purchased in Hong Kong as a tourist oddity, if you are that way inclined

      Oh, and a Happy New Year, by the way.

      It is past midnight where I am, and we will need all the good wishes we can muster in this coming year.


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    janama

    yet there are still die hard geologists out to have a go at Prof Plimer.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/cherry-picking-contrarian-geologists-tend-to-obscure-scientific-truth/story-e6frgd0x-1226233605954

    Mike Sandiford is professor of geology at the University of Melbourne yet this article really shows how uninformed he really is on this subject. His reference to volcanoes is one, his refusal to accept the world is cooling is another.


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      I note that this Sandiford person takes a swipe at Gina in the first and last sentences. Gina is no air head rich girl, I suspect she would mop the floor with that Oreske person.

      Oh well, at least the Sandiford person is giving Ian’s book some free advertising. In haste at the book launch I forgot to actually get a signed copy for myself to read. Will borrow my daughter’s copy when she finishes reading it.

      I see the Global Warming Mutant Ninja Death Cult like an infected big toe. The infection clears and fades from memory or it festers and is amputated, discarded and rots away. The latter would leave a scar and every step will be a reminder of the pain experienced. Books written questioning the religion are the antibiotic to the malaise.


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      cohenite

      Sandiford is a bit of a fruit-loop; he compares the impact of humans on the planet to nuclear explosions, in particular, the Hiroshima “Little Boy”, with this effect:

      In these terms, our human energy system operates at a rate of 0.25 Hiros, or one Hiroshima bomb every four seconds. That is the equivalent of more than eight million Hiroshima bombs going off each year.

      See:

      http://theconversation.edu.au/our-effect-on-the-earth-is-real-how-were-geo-engineering-the-planet-1544

      So, there you have it folks, you are all walking, talking atomic bombs.


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        Jaymez

        Meanwhile Hiroshima is a wealthy, healthy, happy thriving metropolis. Cancer incidence varies but for instance they have fairly normal incidence of most cancers and one of the lowest incidences of breast cancer in the world.


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          Jaymez,

          oddly, there’s a statement that came from one of the original Los Alamos Scientists about that one word, Nuclear. I can’t remember who it was, and if I could find it, I would provide the link, but it seems that most sites that actually say positive things about that word ‘nuclear’, seem to have been, er, ‘whitewashed’ shall we say.

          He mentioned that had they concentrated on using the process only for the generation of electrical power, that it would be in widespread use to this day, and also widely accepted, even to the point of not even bothering about it.

          Had they not had the exigency of answering what the Germans were doing, and then been pressed into ‘speedy’ development of the bomb, with the obvious scary results when what was till then Most Secret to the general public, finally came to pass, hence an unknowing public was astonished when it was finally utilised, then they would have continued development of the process for those electrical power generation purposes.

          From that point on, Nuclear electrical power generation has always been associated with what happened in Japan.

          Whenever I mention it at all, that one word, Nuclear is the problem I have, no matter how carefully I try to explain it.

          One of the odd things, however, is that Nuclear Medicine seems to be OK, and somehow acceptable, and the enrichment level for that is around the same as for power generation, 3 to 5% enrichment, typically only around 3%, while weapons grade enrichment is up around 98%, and an entirely different process altogether from enrichment for power generation.

          Another thing also mentioned in those earlier days at development was that Nuclear Power was considered to be so cheap, as to be at the stage of not even being metered for charging customers for using it, oddly, another thing that has also been whitewashed from all sites that mentioned it as well.

          As that inimitable holiday hotel owner once said, “Don’t mention the War. I did once, but I think I got away with it.”

          Tony.


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            Rereke Whakaaro

            I remember reading in an IEEE Magazine (it is late, on New Years Eve, and I can’t be stuffed in finding the reference), that there was some emerging energy production technology that actually utilised “spent” nuclear fuel rendering it non-radioactive. What is not to love about that?


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            ScottyD

            Tony, not sure if you are aware of search engine filter bubbles.
            Perhaps try your search again using the search engine at the bottom of
            the linked page.

            Cheers,
            Scott


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          Lawrie

          Funny that. Reminds me of Peter Garret with his thousands dead at Chernobyl when the answer was 65. Or Helen Caldercott and her death across the Pacific after Fukashima; reality, nil, zero, zilch. As usual there were no corrections in the news services that brought these scary fabrications to our notice, no challenges nor the seeking of other opinions.

          Reminds me of a series of photos on an email of the comparison between Detroit and Hiroshima. A then and now. Detroit is one gigantic slum and Hiroshima a very modern and vibrant metropolis. It makes the weeping and tearing of hair by Senator Conroy at the ALP conference seem rather stupid. Then again he probably is.


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      lmwd

      After reading that article this morning (I had steam coming out my ears) I feel like sending this quote from Lindzen to Sandiford. Oh, and then there were those inconvenient ClimateGate emails where the major promulgators of alarm privately admit to global cooling and discuss how to hide the decline…..

      “This contradiction is rendered more acute by the fact that there has been no statistically significant net global warming for the last fourteen years. Modelers defend this situation by arguing that aerosols have cancelled much of the warming, and that models adequately account for natural unforced internal variability. However, a recent paper (Ramanathan, 2007) points out that aerosols can warm as well as cool, while scientists at the UK’s Hadley Centre for Climate Research recently noted that their model did not appropriately deal with natural internal variability thus demolishing the basis for the IPCC’s iconic attribution (Smith et al, 2007). Interestingly (though not unexpectedly), the British paper did not stress this. Rather, they speculated that natural internal variability might step aside in 2009, allowing warming to resume. Resume? Thus, the fact that warming has ceased for the past fourteen years is acknowledged. It should be noted that, more recently, German modelers have moved the date for ‘resumption’ up to 2015 (Keenlyside et al, 2008).

      Climate alarmists respond that some of the hottest years on record have occurred during the past decade. Given that we are in a relatively warm period, this is not surprising, but it says nothing about trends.”

      http://www.quadrant.org.au/blogs/doomed-planet/2009/07/resisting-climate-hysteria


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    janama

    I pointed out this article to a friend who replied:

    I wish I could believe that, but the evidence to the contrary is in nature all around me!

    how can you deal with this attitude?


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      val majkus

      janama, that sounds like religious fervour

      but you could start by asking for examples relating to the person’s immediate environment – that being the nature all around me


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      KinkyKeith

      Hi Janama

      The only way to deal with it is to challenge it in court, under oath.

      It was done in the US over evolution and in the UK over AlGores movie.

      While ever politicians who are moving our money around are able to freely LIE about the reasons for that money disappearing they will keep doing it.

      Deceit over the use of our taxes must be stopped by legal challenge.


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      The Black Adder

      Hey Janama,

      Ask him how he feels about nature when a lion rips an antelopes calf from its mothers teet!

      Is that from CO2 as well?

      The strongest survive, the rest become ALP politicians…..:)


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      John Brookes

      Just trust your friend, he’s right!


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    pat

    30 Dec: WSJ: Europe’s Green Airline War
    A new tax on jet carbon emissions invites retaliation
    The European rule does allow exemptions for airlines whose governments are taking “equivalent measures” to penalize carbon emissions, though airline sources say a patchwork of carbon-reporting and taxation schemes would be even more unpalatable than the EU’s blanket measure…
    Beijing has floated a cut in Chinese airlines’ Airbus orders, and Chinese carriers are launching their own lawsuit. New Delhi is mulling a payback tax, and Moscow hasn’t ruled out increasing overflight fees on European carriers…
    The U.S. has stated its “strong legal and policy objections” to the move, and this month Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood warned that Washington “will be compelled to take appropriate action” if the EU doesn’t back down. The measures could include a tax on European airlines, judging by the request the U.S. made this month to nine European carriers for information on their 2012 carbon allowances and 2010 revenues.
    The anticarbon movement has already done enough harm by increasing the cost of energy and wasting money on subsidies for ethanol and other renewables that can’t compete on their own. Now it may start a trade war, which may be the only language that Eurocrats understand.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203479104577124633349735706.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


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    Joe's World

    Jo,

    It is one thing for scientists to be ignorant and another to choose to be that way!

    Happy New Year and may 2012 be our year!


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    pat

    30 Dec: Bloomberg: Matthew Carr: German Power, Carbon Declines After Italy Misses Debt-Sale Goal
    German power for next year dropped to its lowest level in more than a week and European Union carbon permits declined after Italy auctioned 18 percent less debt than its target…
    EU carbon permits for December 2012 decreased 6.6 percent to 7.26 euros a metric ton on the ICE Futures Europe exchange in London. United Nations emission credits for December next year lost 7.1 percent to 4.07 euros a ton…
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-29/german-power-carbon-declines-after-italy-misses-debt-sale-goal.html


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    A happy and prosperous new year to all. 2011 was a good year for climate realists, with the exception of a certain carbon tax in Oz …

    http://thepointman.wordpress.com/2011/12/30/2011-and-climate-alarmism/

    Pointman


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      Given the choice of a nice ‘Red’, or a Carbon Tax, I know which of those two leaves a better taste in my mouth.

      Umm! Just musing here. Being ex RAAF, I’m, er, partial to a nice Port, something that was a bit of a ritual at the Sergeant’s Mess Dining In Nights.

      I distinctly remember one that left all the others absolutely in the shade, and we had good ones, as each time, the CMC would introduce a new Port for us to use during that ‘Pass The Port’ part of the evening.

      This one was called ‘Artillery Port’, and without fraction of doubt, it was the best we ever tried, and was so well received, we called for it to be used for a few more times.

      That was back in ’91 now, and I’m blowed if I can find it anywhere now.

      That’s a huge admission from me, because I think it may actually be a New Zealand Port, perhaps from a Company called Robard Butler, and ever since Richard Hadlee, I’ve always grumbled about anything from New Zealand.

      Off topic maybe, and a cricket joke, but what is unique about Richard Hadlee?

      He was the first bowler to be Knighted since Francis Drake.

      Nyuk nyuk nyuk!

      Tony.

      Pity, all the good stuff just seems to vanish these days.

      Tony.


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        janama

        Tony – I was fortunate to spend an evening at a small aircraft hanger in the Hunter Valley. The owners of the hanger were all millionaires who loved Tiger Moths. We were introduced to their private port keg. Gotta be the best port I’ve ever tasted, 20 year old spirit they told me.


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      Rereke Whakaaro

      … 2011 was a good year for climate realists, with the exception of a certain carbon tax in Oz …

      And the fact that the UN are hiring “Communications Advisors”; and they don’t mean Engineers (I checked).


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      The Black Adder

      …I have a cunning plan for that damn tax…


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    pat

    more academic madness:

    30 Dec: USA Today: Doyle Rice: Does enduring extreme weather make you vote liberal?
    The study was led by Ann Owen, a professor of economics at Hamilton College in Clinton, N.Y.
    Additionally, the authors write in the study that “our results are consistent with the idea that experiencing extreme weather causes individuals to become more aware of the issue of global warming, and increases their perception of the risk of global warming.”
    The study findings are based on an Internet survey of about 2,500 Americans, conducted in August 2009 by Owen and three other Hamilton College economists…
    Although the survey focused mainly on heat waves and droughts, and was conducted in the summer, Owen says their findings can be extrapolated to any type of severe weather event, including blizzards and tropical storms.
    So, potentially, study authors report that weather disasters may hurt conservative candidates more than liberal candidates, because of their positions on environmental policy…
    The study is scheduled to appear in an upcoming issue of the Journal of Policy Analysis and Management.
    http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2011/12/severe-weather-global-warming-environment-laws-vote-liberal/1

    happy new year jo et al


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    Manfred

    ‘One reviewer, Phillip White , is evidently more convinced by the IPCC forecasts and doesn’t like Gladstones thesis:’ as he condescendingly spouts… “Great brain porridge here, if a little Plimerish at first sniff.“ The baseless arrogance is nauseating.

    So, to Dr. John Gladstone, a Bacchanalian high priest if there ever was one…

    …Bottoms Up and a very happy new year.

    Undoubtedly, the Gaia-esque Cult of puritanical primitivisation wrestle with the whole pleasure concept. One can almost smell the guilt associated with a free flowing bountiful abundance of ‘in vino veritas’. No doubt it will only be a matter of time before the Ministry-of-we-know-best figure out yet another enhanced tax take ‘in your best interests and safety’.

    For myself, I trust the next generation to invent their version of the 1960′s and throw the whole lot of restrictive rule makers, inventive tax takers, and human spirit breakers out into the garbage bin of history, to join their warmist cousins who profess to be climate scientists…a fast developing new age oxy-moron.


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      Rereke Whakaaro

      … throw the whole lot of restrictive rule makers, inventive tax takers, and human spirit breakers out into the garbage bin of history …

      The question for 2012, and probably for the rest of the decade is, “How much does the entire Public Service (in any country) contribute to the Gross Domestic Product of the country?”

      Sheep. Goats. Sorted.


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    sophocles

    … should the recent research from the Tibetan plateau prove true, the world is on the cusp of a 68 year long cooling phase. This could make a switch from red-wine grapes to white-wine grapes for Australian viticulture a potentially more profitable …


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    KeithH

    Janama @ 17. First let me thank you for a link you put on WUWT to assist someone else. http://climate4you.com/
    Very helpful and not a bad one in its own right to show to your doubtful friends.

    You ask “how can you deal with this attitude”? In February 2011 The Pointman had a great article titled “The Steady-state Environment Delusion” in which he gave a brief history of earth, our Universe and others and the vast forces at play. I’ll quote one excerpt which really “spoke” to me and puts the whole CO2 debate in perspective for anyone but those totally unwilling to see!

    “If you’ve ever been at sea in a big storm or caught out in open country when some extreme weather arrives, you’ll know on a personal level what every creature on the face of the Earth knows. Anytime Mother Nature decides to do so, she can reach out and snatch the life right out of you.
    As in individuals, so in species, planets, stars and galaxies. The forces ranged against us and all other species are massive beyond any real meaningful comprehension and our climate is just another one of them. Nature is indifferent to our very existence. The idea that we’ve any effect on forces like these and can also somehow conserve things in some supposed ideal balanced state, is not just childish but simply ignorant beyond all belief.
    If we have one survival trait in the face of these forces, it’s not our intelligence. It’s our ability to adapt to what’s coming at us.”

    http://thepointman.wordpress.com/2011/2/25/the-steady-state-environment-delusion

    Hope you don’t mind the C & P Pointman! Happy New Year to to one and all. I’ll just pour another Red and seek some more truth before the clock strikes 12 and 2012 kicks off!


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      No problem Keith. I think that attitude stems from our relatively short lifespan compared to geological timescales.

      “We look at our world and the universe with human eyes and more importantly, with a human lifespan. In terms of the latter, we see an apparently ageless and unchanging view but it’s a false impression. When looked at through the eyes of “deep” time, it is dynamic, violent and forever changing. There is no ideal static harmonious state which must be maintained. There never was and there never will be either.”

      Pointman


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      The Black Adder

      Happy New Year to to one and all. I’ll just pour another Red and seek some more truth before the clock strikes 12 and 2012 kicks off!

      Happy New Year to you Keith!

      I`m having a few VB`s and I am saving my Brown Bros. Shiraz (Probably drunk by Gladstones as well) for 11.30.

      Time to savour a new year, a good drop and hopefully the extinction of the Global Warming Scam.

      A Prosperous New Year for all Jo supporters….


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    Catamon

    Oh goody, the grapes will do fine!

    Pity about the forest and oceans though isn’t it?


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      Oh I dunno Catamon,

      perhaps we could use the Oceans for, er, should I say it, Desal Plants. (Nyuk nyuk nyuk!)

      Tony.


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      memoryvault

      Okay Catamon,

      Tell us all about the (probably already debunked) terrible fate of the forests and the oceans, that will nonetheless somehow leave the vineyards unscathed.

      It couldn’t possibly be worse, more wrong, more unscientific, more stupid, more entertaining than the rantings of Ross James on a previous thread.

      And we survived that.


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        Catamon

        Well Mem, i for one find it a bit sad that much of the northern Jarrah is in decline. The water stress related issues are significant and have been developing for a long time.

        And Tones oh omniscient and much respected pontificator on all matters of electrons!!

        Yup, we will need more desal, but no probs, a few hundred more wind turbines and wave power stations with a few hundred thousand less fracking refrigerated air conditioners all will be well don’t cha know. Would love to see someone ban the obscene things.

        Hmmmmm… have to put that in the manifesto proposal at the next meeting.


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          The Black Adder

          Catamon,

          I feel sorry for you, I reallllllly do!

          Why are you wasting CO2 emissions posting crap on New Years Eve?

          You should be in the cave where you want all of us to be!

          Hey Tony, I`m still feeling blue, but a happy blue (Thanks to the VB`s)


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          Ah Catamon, you just can’t help it can you?

          When you opened up in the earlier Post from Joanne about those Desal plants, you placed your foot firmly in your mouth, and now it seems that all you’ve done here is change feet.

          That’s why I love having people like you at Blogs like this. You’re all so deliciously and blissfully unaware of what it is you call for.

          ….with a few hundred thousand less fracking refrigerated air conditioners all will be well don’t cha know. Would love to see someone ban the obscene things.

          No matter where you live, have a wander into town and have a look around you. Or look at the skyline of every town or city, large or small.

          Look at every building higher than three stories. Go into one of them and take the lift up to any floor, get off, walk to a window and open it and let in the fresh air.

          Nope, you can’t do that. In most cases they’re part of the structure of the building.

          Every single one of those buildings has a large air conditioning unit on the roof.

          Now, when you think air conditioning, you think at the small level, like your car or maybe even in the home. Cooled air in Summer, and for reverse cycle systems, warm air in the Winter.

          However, in every one of those buildings on every skyline in every town and city, those units on the roof are supplying conditioned breathing air. In nearly every case the temperature is set at the one level, so it feels warm in Winter and cool in Summer.

          However the main purpose of those units on every roof is to circulate breathing air throughout the building. Otherwise, the air would soon become stale, so while it ‘feels’ like it is cool or warm, the air is actually being circulated from outside, through the building, and then vented back to the atmosphere, changing all the time.

          Some units can be run at a lower level during times when the building is unoccupied, but in nearly every case, they are working 24/7/365.

          Look again at the skyline.

          Those buildings are mainly workplaces, with some as residential.

          The air can not be just turned off. Turn them off overnight to save electricity, and it defeats the purpose, because when they are turned on again in the morning the compressor (the largest user of electricity) will have to run flat out to get the building back to the required temperature, hence they are left on all the time, because there has to be conditioned (eg circulated) air in the building at all times. Normal operation sees that compressor cycling between the set temperature setting, running for short periods of time, and then cutting out while just the large fans circulate the air through the buildings. Turn them off, and the compressor will have to run for hours on end to reach the cycling range temperature settings, hence defeating the puropse of turning the ‘things’ off.

          You cannot ban air conditioning in this application, because those buildings would be uninhabitable, either as a residence or a workplace.

          The same applies for hospitals. The same applies for shopping centres. Think of all other places where conditioned breathing air in a large enclosed space is utilised.

          All is not what it seems on the surface, and when people make ‘ambit’ claims like this, it just makes me smile.

          Now, again look at those skylines and think about what I have mentioned here. Now think Base Load, power required 24/7/365.

          Base Load IS NOT and adjective to describe those derdy polluding large scale coal fired power plants.

          Base Load is an actual physical requirement for a level of electrical power that is required ABSOLUTELY 24/7/365.

          Ban air conditioning.

          Hah!

          I’d like to see them try to do that.

          Tony.


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            I also couldn’t resist adding some data about air conditioning in the residential sector, because even in the recent new Energy White Paper, even Marn Ferguson mentions the strain placed on power demand by residential air conditioning.

            Air conditioning in a residential application makes up 8% of electricity consumption at that individual household level.

            On average, Australia wide, only one home in eight has air conditioning. (12.5%)

            The residential sector consumes 38% of all generated electricity.

            So, removing every air conditioner from every household residence in Australia will save 0.38% of all generated power.

            At the individual electricity generating plant, that minute amount would not even cause the plant to blink.

            It would still provide the same amount of power it always does.

            Air conditioning in the residential household is not the ‘boogey man’ everyone makes it out to be.

            Tony.


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            Catamon

            Fine Tonesy boy. Add to the list for the manifesto mandatory changes to building regs to require solar passive design features including ventilation.

            However, where did you get:

            On average, Australia wide, only one home in eight has air conditioning. (12.5%).

            That seems rather low to me, so i tried the ABS.

            Have a trawl through and its more like 70?% of households with one or more cooler of some type. In W.A. at least, its about 25% refrigerated split system, and will be more when refrigerated ducted gets take into account. The days are well gone when the cheaper evap systems were dominant.


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            Catamon,

            I was sort of waiting for a comment like this exact one, even down to the specific mention of that one home in eight.

            Even as high as your quoted 25%, then in the residential sector that takes the total residential air conditioning demand to 0.76% of Australia’s total power consumption, still a ridiculously low number that still would not result in any change to total power generation.

            What also needs to be taken into account that in those lower latitudes, air conditioning at the residential level is even less than it may be for WA, or for Queensland, and the vast majority in those two States would be in the Northern areas of those States where the figures would be much higher. In those lower latitudes States, people have heating in Winter, as opposed to air conditioning, so for those lower latitudes, the numbers would be significantly lower, thus lowering the overall percentage to the one in eight I mentioned.

            That’s the reason I use conservative figures.

            People just have no concept of what the real facts are, and because of that, I have no reason whatsoever to inflate the figures to somehow make a point.

            That figure of only 8% of residential consumption for air conditioning was also one I thought may get some puzzled enquiries, because those with air conditioning need only look at their electricity bill to notice that air conditioning takes up a swag greater percentage than that 8% I mentioned when used in Summer, but what needs to be realised here is that in the benign Months of Autumn and Spring, those air conditioning units are not even turned on, so that figure of 8% is again correct when extrapolated out over the whole year.

            As I mentioned, air conditioning at the residential level is not the boogey man it is made out to be.

            People ‘nit pick’ one small thing here and there, and even then, the end result varies so little as to still remain inconsequential.

            Tony.


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          BobC

          Come on Tony! You can’t expect true believers like catamon to actually know anything about how their society works! Their opinions are chosen soley on the basis of how it makes them feel.


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            Llew Jones

            Let us be kind Bob it is the time for New Year resolutions. These poor souls are masochists and come here not to be informed but to get red ticks. So why not make a resolution say to not read their posts but to provide the only therapy they come here for….red ticks. I’m going to be kind in 2012.


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            Catamon

            Actually Llew, to be informed is exactly why I come here. A lot of the posters are sad, frightened, conspiracy theorist kool aiders that’s true, but as with any blog there are occasional links to interesting info, and some comments worth reading. The actual links to some papers i probbaly wouldn’t normally come across are good. Though the interpretations by the “Skeptics” on the blogosphere sometimes are a bit self serving and, well, silly.

            I treat the blogosphere as a bit like a visit to the zoo.

            I’m going to be kind in 2012.

            A good and worthy ambition mate. I think i’ll just be me.


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            What I find interesting in this Catamon, is that when we deconstruct some of the gross statements that you come out with, showing how little you really know, (eg Desal, eg Air conditioning, eg at al) all of a sudden we are:

            ….. sad, frightened, conspiracy theorist kool aiders …..

            It’s the standard reply we have come to expect.

            You are basically clueless, and when we attempt to correct your misunderstandings, this is your reply.

            I’ve come to the conclusion that you really do not want to know.

            We don’t just make this ‘stuff’ up.

            Tony.


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          memoryvault

          Large scale desalination powered by windmills?
          You really don’t know a lot about these things, do you Cat?

          What next?

          A mag-lev train powered by solar panels bolted to the roof?
          With a couple of car batteries for back-up when it’s cloudy?

          How about a car that runs for a year on a couple of ‘AAA’ batteries, like the TV remote?


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            Catamon

            You really don’t know a lot about these things, do you Cat?

            A bit more than you’d think mem me darlin. But, basically i’m not a subscriber to the “oh yes we’d do something if not for …… (cue Tones)” school of thought.

            I’m more a subscriber to the “tax the rich scum till they bleed through their ears and spend it on the public good” school of thought. That provides the funds for the University i work at to do all kinds of wonderful research into whatever we want while laughing at the peons…..

            (insert maniac cackle emoticon)

            You know how it goes mate.


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            Winston

            Catamon,
            Your “tax the rich scum” quote is merely monumental jealousy wearing a halo.

            How then do you reconcile the Al Gore’s, Cate Blanchett’s, Maurice Strong’s, Dominic Strauss-Kahn’s, et al. And how these and their ilk fit within your world view? From what I’ve witnessed, people of your belief system do nothing but fall over themselves in slavish, slobbering worship of these so called icons, who are wealthy beyond any reasonable value accorded to their actual contribution to society, and in addition are narcissistic, self centered, ego trippers to a man (woman). Yet, your kind have blind hatred for those punters of the aspirational middle class, who have usually achieved any wealth they have gained on the basis of merit, intelligence, diligence and hard work, while operating at odds with a tax system and government which does little, if anything, to encourage their success. These people are the life blood of any functioning society, they spend much of what they do earn which is left after the tax man has gutted them, pumping money through the economy, providing the grist for the mill of retail businesses, etc, etc.

            Since, these people are the “life blood”, I suppose that would make you the “leech”
            then.

            Btw, Cat, just exactly what, if any, useful contribution have you ever made to society at large I wonder? I suspect by the contributions to the above debate that the answer is- “not bloody much!”


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            Catamon

            Btw, Cat, just exactly what, if any, useful contribution have you ever made to society at large I wonder?

            You’ll no doubt be pleased and comforted that i take my role in and contribution to scientific education over the last 20 years quite seriously.

            And your right, i would fall over in slavish worship of Cate Blanchett. I guess thats just a boy thing huh?

            Since, these people are the “life blood”, I suppose that would make you the “leech”then.

            I’ve known too many tradies who are wealthy primarily on the basis of “structuring” their activities to pay no tax at all to actually do anything but LOL at this Winston.


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            Winston

            I’ve known too many tradies who are wealthy primarily on the basis of “structuring” their activities to pay no tax at all

            The black economy of “cash in hand” is an entirely separate issue, as you well know- I am not going to defend people who avoid obligations that honest people are forced to abide by- but that was not the point I made, as you know- So again I ask, why the hatred for the people who have dragged themselves up from a lack of privilege to a more privileged level of affluence, yet the elite who are above and beyond this system are often your movement’s heroes?

            As to “our Cate”, she is just an actress! Hardly an activity worthy of the accolades or income which it attracts, sorry. In a properly evolved value system of human endeavour, this should be well down the list of tasks to aspire to for the betterment of civilisation, IMO. And I would be very interested to see exactly where she pays tax- Cayman Islands perhaps?- I believe that many of her Hollywood comrades in arms (who often preach about communitarian values, I might add) have well entrenched tax avoidance schemes, perhaps she is an exception, I wonder.


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            Winston

            You’ll no doubt be pleased and comforted that i take my role in and contribution to scientific education over the last 20 years quite seriously.

            I am “pleased and comforted” up to a point, but I hope that your “education” (as opposed to indoctrination) involves teaching your students the value of not just accepting the established paradigm, and having the humility and the where-with-all to be open to accepting how little we often know in many fields of endeavour, and more importantly allowing them to be malleable enough to accept contrary evidence when it arises, or at least listening with an open mind.

            Medicine, for example, has accepted many of these uncertainties more readily in the last couple of decades and it is much the better for it. Climate science and psychiatry are just 2 examples of scientific endeavours where the uncertainties are so large, and the knowledge foundation base is such a tiny fraction of the overall picture, yet have such a disproportionate level of belief in their own prescience and infallibility- both need a major purgative dose of reality to become properly-based, truly scientific endeavours.


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      Manfred

      What?

      You mean to admit you didn’t get around to modeling viticulture?

      Tsch, tsch.

      Or wait, I get it, it’s a secret isn’t it?

      It means there’ll be a surfeit to go around the selected Gaia-elite, to ease the cognitive dissonance associated with resolving their desire not to continue to be a blot on the landscape.


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    Juliar

    If a piss-pot Wine drinker can dismantle the alarmists arguments then you now their arguments aren’t any good! :D


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    Graeme No.3

    Juliar,
    don’t you know CO2 controls the temperature. Thus 130,000 years ago (roughly, I wasn’t around then) the Earth was 3ºC warmer than today. There were elephant, giraffe and hippopotamus in the Thames Valley when the CO2 level was 28O ppm. Therefore the Earth’s temperature is rising to get back to that level (plus the warming caused by the extra CO2).

    The rise is boosted by the extra warmth evaporating CO2 and water from the oceans. These extra Greenhouse gases cause more warming, followed by more evaporation, followed by more warming. What stops it? Well there is only 10-11 times the amount of CO2 in the top 150 m of the oceans than in the atmosphere, so the positive feedback should stop when the Earth gets to 70-80ºC. WE ARE ALL DOOMED!

    You might object that recent ocean temperature measurements have shown slight cooling and wonder where the missing heat is?

    Well, it is in the ocean depths. At night, giant squid come to the surface and pack suitcases of heat, before dragging it down to the stygian depths. All that splashing and agitation is the cause of the ever increasing number of hurricanes which the warmists count (or count on?).

    You see, AGW theory is really simple and believable!


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    er

    I was a skeptic until one day, after going to the grocery, I set down a 2 liter bottle of pepsi outside the front door as I let myself in and forgot about it. Later that afternoon, the sun heated the bottle. The concentrated CO2 caused so much greenhouse heat that the bottle turned white-hot and melted through toward the center of the Earth. It is a miracle that this doesn’t happen more often.


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    Madjak

    oh noooosss, big infomedia is struggling… my heart bleees for those useless oxygen thieves

    http://www.deadline.com/2011/12/2011-big-media-remembering-a-lost-year/#more-207547


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    John F. Hultquist

    From the cold and windy Kittitas Valley
    east of the Cascade Crest of Washington State
    Happy Twenty-twelve


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    Mervyn Sullivan

    Global warming skeptics have allowed the IPCC and its ship of fools to get the upper hand reinforcing the meaningless term ‘climate change’ in the minds of the general public.

    This must change.

    2012 must be the year that everyone dumps the term ‘climate change’ in favour of the term ‘catastrophic man-made global warming’… after all, that is what the IPCC’s mantra is about.

    So please, I encourage everyone to stop referring to ‘climate change’ and start referring to ‘catastrophic man made global warming’.


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      memoryvault

      Good luck with that.

      I’ve been trying the very same thing, first at WUWT and later here, for the last three years, without much success.

      He who controls the language, controls the debate.


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      Llew Jones

      Just wonder if “climate change” is not a much easier target to knock over than global warming.

      I’m inclined to think “climate has, is and will always be changing” resonates better with the “man in the street” than having to dissect and analyse the stats on “global warming” the warmists publish to fool the average person. Coming to terms with GW requires a little more maths skill than is needed to observe that “climate always changes” is a truism.

      One of my hobby horses is that the IPCC, with intent, defines climate as “average weather”.

      If we take a more general and I suggest more basic definition, climate becomes all those variables that produce a range of weather events. If we think about that for a moment then it is apparent that we can only be talking about regional and/or local weather events and of course anomalies in “average global temperature” or even the concept of global temperature becomes an unscientific nonsense. Who ever heard of “global weather”?

      We can throw CO2 into that list of many variables. The effect of the known variables as weather event drivers, it seems by considering the many poor weather forecasts, are only partially understood and there may be others whose effect is as yet unknown.

      When you look at climate in that way then it is very unlikely that there will ever be, in the same local and regional context, weather events that are exactly the same in every detail. That is one reason, if those many variables define climate, why defining it as “average weather” (over a convenient to the IPCC time span) is the climate fraudster’s dream.

      In the mean time I think we can demolish, in the minds of the “masses” IPCC climate change more easily than we can IPCC global warming.


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    [...] Another skeptical mind: Revered wine science expert writes skeptical book to rave reviews [...]


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    incoherent rambler

    It is hot here today – Melbourne 36C. Must be global warming


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      Juliar

      Tommorrow it will be ‘warming’ to 40oC. An increase of 4oC a DAY! Holy cow we are screwed! :D


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      Popeye

      IR

      Funny you should say that but it could have been much worse!

      Sydney probably saved Melbourne from “catastrophic man made global warming” on Saturday night – our esteemed mayor (Clover Moore) was quoted as saying (yes – she actually said it) that our beautiful NYE fireworks were indeed CARBON NEUTRAL? WTF – carbon neutral fireworks?? – not to mention the 1.5 million people who travelled to the city to watch them?????

      AMAZING hey – these people are stark raving LUNATICS AND SHOULD ALL BE COMMITTED!!!

      Cheers,


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    memoryvault

    Catamon @ 26.2.1.4.1

    “I’m more a subscriber to the “tax the rich scum till they bleed through their ears and spend it on the public good” school of thought. “

    Cat, I’m wondering if you would be kind enough to define for the rest of us just who the “rich scum” are, that need to be “taxed till they bleed through their ears”.

    Is it judged as simply an amount earned per annum? And if so, how much?

    Or are there other criteria?

    You might also like to throw in an explanation of just “WHO” gets to decide what’s in the “public good” (whatever that is).

    .
    You?


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    Catamon

    Cat, I’m wondering if you would be kind enough to define for the rest of us just who the “rich scum” are, that need to be “taxed till they bleed through their ears”.

    No Probs. I reckon start with Gina, Twiggy, Clive Palmer, Alan Jones then work down through the ranks.

    You might also like to throw in an explanation of just “WHO” gets to decide what’s in the “public good” (whatever that is).

    Well Mem, by convention, in a democracy, that role is served by our elected representatives. Happy Days, they finally got it right and brought in a Carbon Price eh?


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      Juliar

      Heaven forbid anyone who has earnt lots of money is allowed to actually be in possesion of it! Please explain to me why rich people (many who ‘reaped what they sewed’ with their wealth) are so evil?


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        MadJak

        Juliar,

        Catamon is just a bad troll. It is just a collection of communist catch phrases with very little intellect behind it. She’s just a mouthpeice for communist catch phrases and has been busted repeating lies here on multiple occasions.


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          Catamon

          been busted repeating lies here on multiple occasions.

          Where when what MadJerk?? Back your direct accusation with fact and example or apologize. Where have i posted something that i know to be untrue at the time i posted it?


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            MadJak

            OK, well lets start with post 4.1.4 at the following post:

            http://joannenova.com.au/2011/11/australia-picks-last-possible-moment-to-leap-onto-burning-ship/

            You state the following, which sounds all convincing :

            In fairness to the man, Tony Abbott did tell a meeting of the party faithful @ Hepburn Springs in 2007 that “climate change is crap”.

            Now, it’s not your fault this is incorrect, you were just the mouthpeice repeating what many others of your ilk have been saying for ages now.

            If you actually look at the source, the direct quote was that Tony abbot stated that “”The climate change argument is absolute crap”, which is, of course a completely different implication.

            Interestingly, it appears at least some “climate scientists” seem to agree with that statement. A bit inconvenient.

            Maybe you should be apologising to Mr Abbott for misquoting him?

            Nah, you’ll just not reply to this the last time I challenged you. After all, you’re just repeating what you masters are telling you.


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            Catamon

            Maybe you should be apologising to Mr Abbott for misquoting him?

            Absolutely Maddy love. It appears you are right that he did say:

            “The climate change argument is absolute crap”

            Which is not as different in the context the comment was made in (him telling different audiences, different thing, depending on what they want to hear), as you would like to think, and is bullbutter anyway.

            So Tony Abbott, i hear-by apologize for propagating a misquotation. Your still a git,a hypocritical blot on the body politic, economically illiterate and unfit to be PM, but i will own up to the misquote.

            Now, do you love me again MadJerk??


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            MadJak

            Juliar,

            You see with Catamons idea of an apology above – perfect example of the fact that catamon is just a mouthpeice of catch phrases from the extreme left:

            It appears you are right that he did say:
            “The climate change argument is absolute crap”
            Which is not as different in the context the comment was made in

            Which of course it complete bollox, as he was talking about the argument, no matter what catamons masters would like to have catamon broadcast.

            Just a mouth. No depth, no substance. Doesn’t check it’s references and cannot admit that maybe it’s sources (which I am sure are idolised) could and are often wrong.


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          Mark

          Madjak:

          Catamon is waiting for the “poverty/misery led recovery” to come.

          I suppose one day we’ll be enlightened with the preferred economic model, be it that of Pol Pot, Enver Hoxha, Fidel Castro, Kim Il Sung et fil. Can’t leave out the “golden oldies” but we know who they were. Whatever, their apologists never seem to run out of excuses why the socialist utopia never actually arrived and why so many risked death to escape their earthly “paradise”.

          This image recently appeared at WUWT. Its significance wouldl not be lost on any sane person. Catamon will probably go orgasmic at the sight of it.

          http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/northkoreaatnight.jpg

          One can only immagine what the one conspicuous light source probably belongs to. The now deceased “Dear Leader’s” palace perhaps?


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            MadJak

            I don’t understand why people who exercise the politics of envy and want to cut down anyone who does better than they do don’t just go and live in North Korea?

            After all, North Koreans have one of the lowest carbon footprints per capita of almost any country. They even have the odd decarbonising famine to help keep their carbon footprint down.


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      John Brookes

      Ah, that is music to my years Catamon. In rich societies, higher levels of income inequality lead to lower overall wellbeing – and not just for the poor, but for the rich in those societies as well. So, paradoxically, lowering the income of the top 20% actually makes them better off. I guess the best thing about this is that the most annoying of the wealthy would decide to go an live in a more unequal country. Bye bye!


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        MadJak

        JB,

        So this is music to your ears:

        “tax the rich scum till they bleed through their ears and spend it on the public good”

        Wow, I thought you actually had a bit of intellect there. I guess I was wrong on that one.

        I am genuinely sorry for being wrong with respect to JB, I will learn from this lesson and view JBs comments in future within the context of Catamons spat above.


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          John Brookes

          Catamon’s colourful language is just that, colourful language. The ideas are sound.

          A lot of rich people are scum. They got rich through looking after themselves at the expense of others. I’m sure you’ve all know of people who’ve got rich by not paying their bills (Alan Bond springs to mind). In one case a contractor was so sure they wouldn’t get paid by a rich bastard that they buried an earthmover and told the rich bastard he’d get it back when he got paid. The rich bastard tried very hard to to find his earthmover, but in the end gave up and actually paid the contractor. Funny. Then there are the scum who lend money to businesses, and wait until they are sure the business can’t come up with the money quickly – and then demand payment immediately. They then put the business into liquidation, and their mats, the shonky liquidators, come in and strip the company to the mutual benefit of the money lender and the liquidator. Then there are the companies that supply “Premium SMS” services. These shits con kids into agreeing to receive messages on their mobiles, and charge $5 per message. When the pre-paid credit available drops below $5, then they send $2 messages. Lots of parents and kids argue over excessive phone usage, with neither of them realising just why the money they put on the phone goes so quickly.

          Sure there are also lots of nice rich people. Like the surgeon who runs with a mate of mine. He does his half a dozen or so operations on a Friday before he goes running, and makes in that one day what my mate makes in one month as a physics teacher. Medical specialists are in short supply, because we don’t train enough of them. Why we don’t train more is a mystery to me. Perhaps existing specialists are too busy making money to train new ones.

          There is no doubt in my mind that we need to lower income inequality in Australia. Whether that is via taxation, or through a better labour market, it doesn’t really matter. But increasing inequality hurts us all.


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            Medical specialists are in short supply, because we don’t train enough of them. Why we don’t train more is a mystery to me.

            John, if our medical system was not controlled by the government and the AMA we’d train more doctors starting tomorrow. No shortage of students want to study med. Plenty of people would like to visit a doc more often – especially in the country, or after hours. The AMA are a powerful mob. They don’t want to compete with a sudden rush of graduates.

            If there was a free market in medical care in Australia, this problem, and many of the waiting lists, would get solved quickly.

            Jo


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            Winston

            Just how many physics teachers have to pay $60 to $100,000 plus in many cases for indemnity insurance, employ 2 or 3 staff out ot their own gross earnings, have to their own purchase equipment, pay rent, purchase disposable implements and dressings, etc., risk catching HIV, or other communicable diseases, sometimes work 15 to18 hour days, train for up to 10 to 12 years on top of your Uni course, being paid a pittance and working shift work sometimes round the clock for several years, dealing with death constantly, being confronted with telling good people they have a terminal condition, etc, etc.

            No profession is perfect, but to be in the top 0.5% of high school students, studying for 6 years and achieving distinction level results, then working as an intern, then resident then registrar, then hoping to get on a training scheme somewhere is not as easy as it might seem, John. As a GP, I can also certainly sympathize with many specialists, like endocrinologists and geriatricians, who are very poorly paid relative to their level of expertise. Don’t be so quick to criticize when you haven’t walked a mile in someone’s shoes.


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            Winston

            John,
            I forgot to mention- pay for your own disability insurance, pay for your own super without any contribution from the government, recieve nil pay when you are sick or when you go on holidays, often being “on call” overnight and on weekends when you have to answer enquiries from hospital staff over night then front up the next day to do surgery or do consultations all day, be verbally abused by drug addicted or mentally disturbed patients, be vomited upon, have pus fly up into your face, be covered in someone else’s faeces, all of which I can say I have experienced first hand- not much of a recruitment poster is it?


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            MattB

            Winston I’d be happy to walk a mile in your shoes… in fact 18 holes at any specialist’s preferred premium golf course on one of their many half days off caused by the fact they so restrict the number of people who can ply the trade that they can charge what they like when they like.


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            Winston

            MattB
            I haven’t had the opportunity to play a round of golf in 20 years, played all the time as a student. Haven’t got the time! But don’t let that get in the way of your belief system, by all means. Funny, none of my partners have time for golf either, by the way. And physics teachers don’t have the time to play golf, give me a break.


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            Winston

            You’ll be glad to know, counsellor, that a good deal of my time (unpaid) is taken up sorting through various governments red tape, local, state and federal, trying to wade through the convoluted mess you gives give us to try and run a business profitably. Well done then, mission accomplished.


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            Winston

            Btw, I bulk bill 75% of my patients and drive a Suzuki, many of my patients seen for gratis drive BMWs- go figure, I wonder why people can’t be bothered to work for many years like that when there are so many easier ways to make a dollar. I’m sure I could do your job in my sleep, for example.


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        Catamon

        So, paradoxically, lowering the income of the top 20% actually makes them better off.

        That is precisely what most of the fearful rich ignoramii don’t get anymore. Sad.

        But, in fact some few of them do acknowledge it in recent times so there is some small hope.

        interesting info:

        http://www.stanford.edu/class/polisci120a/immigration/Federal%20Tax%20Brackets.pdf

        or:

        http://ntu.org/tax-basics/history-of-federal-individual-1.html


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    PeterD

    Lawrie; RE 15.1.1.1.6

    Christ gave us two simple commandments; love God and love thy neighbour. It is impossible to do one without doing the other.

    Then at least one is redundant.


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      John Brookes

      He had to include “love thy neighbour”, because if he didn’t you’d get a society of excessive religiousity, where everyone would take great pains to look pious, and look down on those who they perceived as less pious. And this wouldn’t be very Christian at all, would it?


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        memoryvault

        “. . . where everyone would take great pains to look pious, and look down on those who they perceived as less pious.”

        You mean like a CAGW climate cultist?

        .

        And shouldn’t that be prius?


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          Catamon

          You mean like a CAGW climate cultist?

          I’d think probably yes. Those Conspiracy theory of Anthropogenic Global Warming cultists can be pretty irritating with their misplaced notions of intellectual superiority.


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    MattB

    It would have been great had he also presented/discussed what the implications for the wine industry would be if say the IPCC is correct. That would be a valuable contribution to make. After all he is an expert in wine and climate, but he’s no expert in climate science.


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      memoryvault

      Yeah, and maybe he should do a presentation on how to cope if one’s vineyard is struck by an asteroid, or invaded by Godzilla.

      Seriously MattB you are the very LAST person commenting on this site who should be demanding people explain what should be done if it turns out they’re wrong.

      Many months ago now you were asked for your “Plan B”, remember?

      That’s what you will do if it turns out you and the IPCC are wrong about CAGW, and instead the world now cools for a while.

      The question was, having created energy shortages with your fascination for useless windmills and psychopathic rejection of fossil fuels, plus food shortages with your support of biofuels, if it turns out you are wrong what do you intend to do about the tens of millions of people you have now condemned to death by exposure and/or starvation.

      After two months of refusing to answer at all on the basis that you and the IPCC couldn’t possibly, conceivably be wrong, you eventually offered this sage, compassionate advice to those you have condemned to slow horrible death:

      “They should wear more jumpers.”

      Is that your idea of a “valuable contribution” MattB?


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        MattB

        So what is your plan B MV? What should we be doing to prepare for the impending cold? You know I don’t support bio-fuels where they replace crops. If a big freeze is coming, or agw heats us up, well we are screwed either way. We can only prevent one of these (ie warming – by reducing GHG emissions), we can’t prevent an ice age. It would truly suck – but my actions would not contribute to that ice age. You are creating a false dichotomy where my actions cause the cold and the hardship.


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          memoryvault

          I gave you my “Plan B” long before you ever even responded to the original question.

          To refresh your memory, the ONLY way for humans to survive either warming or cooling, is access to energy and food.
          If it warms, energy for air-conditioning, refrigeration and transport.
          If it cools, energy for warmth, refrigeration, and transport.

          You have denied people energy. As a result millions of people are now going to die, and history will record you as a genocidal murderer.

          That is now carved in stone, and there is nothing either of us can do about it.

          YOU are a mass-murderer, and that is how history will record it.


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          BobC

          MattB
          January 3, 2012 at 6:57 pm

          If a big freeze is coming, or agw heats us up, well we are screwed either way. We can only prevent one of these (ie warming – by reducing GHG emissions), we can’t prevent an ice age.

          Well, the “Father of Global Warming”, James Hansen, claims that Mankind has already prevented not only the next ice age, but all future ones. I can’t find the peer-reviewed article where he makes this claim, but he repeats it in his 2009 book, “Storms of my Grandchildren”. On page 229 he says:

          “In fact, with humans on the planet, there will never be another ice age. …It is a trivial task to avoid the negative net climate forcing that would push the planet into an ice age…”

          How does he know this? Earlier (page 34) he claims that:

          paleoclimate information provides precise knowledge of how sensitive climate is to changes of climate forcings.

          Of course, he simply assumes that the forcings that we don’t have good paleodata for, such as cosmic ray fluxes, solar activity, albedo changes, etc, etc, are simply irrelevant and thus only the temperature and CO2 matter. (Also ignoring or hand-waving away the inconvenient fact that the paleodata shows CO2 lagging temperatures by ~800 years — thus providing more evidence that temperature controls CO2 concentrations than the other way around.)

          This is Hansen’s idea of “precise knowledge” — what you don’t know can’t matter, and argue away any data that contradicts your desired conclusion.

          Hansen proceeds blithly on to claim that:

          Human-made forcings are beginning to warm the world at a predicted rate

          ignoring the inconvenient fact that his prediction success rate (0.00) is currently tied with Paul Ehrlich. Given this record, perhaps the safest thing to assume is that another ice age is inevitable.

          Back to MattB:

          It [an ice age] would truly suck – but my actions would not contribute to that ice age. You are creating a false dichotomy where my actions cause the cold and the hardship.

          While true that you aren’t contributing to an ice age, you ARE promoting actions that will severely damage our ability to respond to it. In fact, lack of cheap energy will severely damage our ability to adapt to ANY change in the climate — hotter or colder. You are on a fool’s errand: Betting everything on an unproven (even, I would say, disproven) attempt to control climate.


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        MattB

        “Seriously MattB you are the very LAST person commenting on this site who should be demanding people explain what should be done if it turns out they’re wrong.”

        But that’s not what I’m saying. If this guy is a guru of viticulture then I think his opinion on what would happen if the IPCC was correct would be of great value. His opinion on what would happen if the IPCC was wrong is also of interest. HIs opinion on whether the IPCC is or is not wrong, I’m afraid, is a collection of mumbo jumbo and I’m not surprised as he appears to have attended the Gina Rineheart school of critical thinking about climate change.


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          memoryvault

          As stated before, since we are all still waiting, for over six months now, for your realistic “Plan B” if you are wrong (particularly since all the observable evidence suggests you ARE indeed, wrong), you are the very LAST person to be demanding explanations from others on the basis that they “might” be wrong.


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    MattB

    ““They should wear more jumpers.”” funnily enough MV you always lampoon me for saying this, and indeed it was said as a frivolous line, however whenever I go to cold places it appears that that is ACTUALLY WHAT THEY DO when it gets cold.


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      memoryvault

      MattB, if a Scotsman gets on a plane in Scotland, in the middle of the local winter, and flies to the Pilbara in WA and arrives in the middle of the local summer and 40 degree C + heat, he can nonetheless survive and prosper.

      For as long as there is water to drink, water to wet himself down with, and shade somewhere for him to rest in, he will even survive in an iron ore mine pit, where temperatures regularly get up to 55 degrees C +.

      On the other hand, the same Scotsman, back in his homeland, in winter which he is genetically acclimatised to, locked outside his home, will probably freeze to death in a few hours, regardless of how many “jumpers” he has on.

      The truth is, and always has been MattB, a bit of warmth can be inconvenient; a bit of cold is invariably deadly.

      Because of people like you, tens of millions of people are now going to die. There is now no way around it. There is now no time to plan to avoid it.

      And being a typical mass-murdering climate change cultist, your best solution remains “wear a jumper”.


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        John Brookes

        mv, if it gets 2 degrees hotter on average, it will be a problem for the world. If it gets 2 degrees colder, it will be a problem for the world. I agree with you, cold would be worse than hot, but neither will be good.

        Like it or not, our farms, cities, rivers etc are where they are because of our existing climate. A climate that has changes fairly slowly over the last few thousand years.

        The vikings (apparently) left Greenland because of a drop in temperatures. There are empty ruined cities in Africa because of changes to rainfall. The Mayan civilisation collapsed because of a prolongued drought. Ancient Egyptian civilisation collapsed because of changes to the flooding of the Nile.

        In the past, the world had a lot of slack in it. You could go to new places. Its pretty full now. A change in climate that would have been merely inconvenient a thousand years ago could be absolutely devastating now.

        So don’t go showing faux concern and accusing MattB of causing the deaths of tens of millions.


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          memoryvault

          So don’t go showing faux concern and accusing MattB (and me) of causing the deaths of tens of millions.

          JB, SA and parts of Victoria are experiencing very hot conditions at the moment. The potential for destructive bushfires is extremely high.

          During such times poorly maintained high voltage power lines can (and have in the past) provide an ignition source for what could be (and has been) fatal bushfires.

          Now, in a country prone to bushfires what do you think the sane thing would be to do, John (and MattB)?

          Well, we could start by properly maintaining the power lines, but we’re not doing that – there’s no money available for that.

          Given that we are nation prone to destructive bushfires, we could put all the power lines that run through susceptible areas underground, but that would cost a whole more than simply maintaining the lines, so we’re not even contemplating that.

          Do you know what we ARE doing about the situation John?

          We’re turning OFF the bloody power, John.

          In Victoria they’re taking it a step further and installing sensors that will automatically cut off the power to lines running through bushfire-prone areas, when conditions are favourable for such fires.

          I’ll put that another way, John. As of now, whenever it looks like there could be a bushfire, the authorities are going to TURN OFF the power to places most likely to be affected by said bushfire.

          So, all those places suffering in a heatwave will have no power for air-conditioning. All those places likely to have casualties and old people suffering heat-stroke, will have their hospitals running on emergency backup. All those pumps people might use to save their homes will be inoperable.

          Can you conceivably spot the faulty logic here, John?

          All this because we “can’t afford” to maintain our existing electrical supplies properly, let alone do anything sensible about “fireproofing” them.

          But you know what, John?

          At the same time that we, as a nation, can’t afford to do the proper, or sensible thing, we can nonetheless tax people into the poor-house so we can, amongst other things, set up a “clean energy fund”.

          We CAN afford to spend TEN BILLION DOLLARS “researching” (failed) wind-power, (failed) solar power, and the perpetual motion machine otherwise known a CO2 sequestration.

          Now, it’s NOT people like me, or Jo Nova, or Tony from OZ, or Sunset Tommy who are responsible for this kind of idiocy.

          It’s people like YOU, and MattB and Catamon and the other useful fools and your fawning, unquestioning, cultist support for the rantings of criminals like Flannery and Steffen and Karoly and Chubb, and not to forget JuLIAR, that makes this lunacy possible.

          People are going to die, and YES, ultimately it’s the fault of people like you and MattB


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    Wayne, s. Job

    Many times in our history has scientific and religious orthodoxy been challenged by new ideas from heretics. Reaction from the consensus has oft been savage, at this time we have one religion and one scientific mob that react rather badly to critisism.

    One problem may not go away this year but the heretics to the climate science scam are winning the battle by diligent scientific research. Once the AGW scam is exposed as fraudulent in nature the political discourse will change. The other problem is PC in nature and could also be solved rapidly with the right attitude, but I am not holding my breathe on that one.

    May 2012 be the year of the heretic.


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    [...] climate change that will occur and thus the degree of effect on terroir“. Unsurprisingly, the usual suspects have rushed to welcome a new member to their ranks. I decided to do a little [...]


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