JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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That Australian sense of humour: not the Tea Party, the G.R.O.G. Party

G.R.O.G. = Get Rid Of Gillard

...
The GROG Party

H/t:   Just Grounds, Jeff, Craig. Thanks :-)

Please, will the original artist comment so I can give credit and a link?

UPDATE #1: Could be Alex Werchon on CAN-Do?   4-Mar-2011? (h/t Dave N if so).

UPDATE #2: Andrew Bolt describes the Thomson meltdown as “out of control” – Senior members of the Gillard government are being accused of heavying the Health Services Union for reporting the allegation that  M.P. Thomson misused Union funds to hire prostitutes... “overnight a dirt-covered shovel is left outside the door of HSU secretary Kathy Jackson, who was home alone.” Bolt also notes that the Labor Party connection with union thugs and conmen has some history.

“What we are witnessing is more like scenes from a mafia vendetta, not the processes of a responsible government.”

Andrew Bolt

Have these people no scruples?

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That Australian sense of humour: not the Tea Party, the G.R.O.G. Party, 9.1 out of 10 based on 16 ratings

Tiny Url for this post: http://tinyurl.com/3bxvlje

232 comments to That Australian sense of humour: not the Tea Party, the G.R.O.G. Party

  • #
    Gee Aye

    After the next election, those on the other side will be forming the G.R.O.T party.

    10

  • #
    pat

    why didn’t any of us come up with it? brilliant.
    might repeat a laugh i’d just posted on the previous thread, cos let’s face it, we all need a laugh these days:

    23 Aug: Townhall: Paul Driessen: Climate Prostitutes, Charlatans and Comedians
    Put these guys on Comedy Central. Put ‘em in an asylum … a mandatory restitution program … jail perhaps … or a witness protection program, if they turn state’s evidence on other perpetrators. But keep them away from our money – and our energy, economic, healthcare and education policies.
    Climate prostitutes, parasites and charlatans have been devouring billions in US taxpayer dollars, year after year, plus billions more in corporate shareholder cash, activist foundation funds and state government grants. The laws, mandates, subsidies and regulations they advance have cost taxpayers and consumers still more billions for “alternative” energy and other schemes that send prices skyrocketing, kill jobs, and reduce health and living standards.
    It’s time to end this destructive saga and, while we’re at it, pink-slip the politicians and bureaucrats who pour billions of hard-earned tax dollars into perpetual climate “research,” “education” and “environmental” programs. They’re actively complicit or have completely failed to perform proper due diligence…
    http://townhall.com/columnists/pauldriessen/2011/08/23/climate_prostitutes,_charlatans_and_comedians/page/full/

    on a more serious note, some might find this lengthy, detailed piece interesting:

    25 Aug: seekingalpha: John Petersen: It’s Time To Kill The Electric Car, Drive A Stake Through Its Heart And Burn The Corpse
    I was recently invited to prepare a memorandum on the battery industry for the electric mobility working group of the World Energy Council, a global thought leadership forum established in 1923 that includes 93 national committees representing over 3,000 member organizations including governments, businesses and research institutions. Since my memorandum integrated several themes from this blog and tied them all together, I’ve decided to publish a lightly edited version for readers…
    Metal prices are more volatile and increasing more rapidly than energy prices…
    Any alternative that can’t be deployed at relevant scale isn’t an alternative at all. It’s merely an expensive distraction for the masses, a bit like the circus in ancient Rome.
    The Diminishing Marginal Utility Of Batteries
    Once you understand that metal supplies are far more constrained than energy supplies, every evaluation of electric drive becomes a simple exercise in optimizing the fuel savings from each unit of metal used. The five generic levels of electrification and the typical fuel savings at each level are summarized below…
    http://seekingalpha.com/article/289828-it-s-time-to-kill-the-electric-car-drive-a-stake-through-its-heart-and-burn-the-corpse

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    I love GROG! makes you sleep almost as well as MEAD.

    00

  • #
  • #
    John Brookes

    Grog, eh? Might start the next rum rebellion….

    00

  • #
    The Black Adder

    This is brilliant!!

    Today being a Friday, means a few sherbets with my mates down at the local today.

    I will be signing them all up to the GROG Party.

    00

  • #
    Overseasinsider

    I NEED this as a bumper sticker!!!!!!

    00

  • #
    keith

    Speaking as a cold-calling, early morning, door-to-door second hand shovel salesman I don’t think we should go leaping to conclusions before all the facts are in…

    00

  • #
    pat

    Bolt also has:

    26 Aug: Australian: Terry McCrann: Staggering cost of CO2 permits revealed
    AUSTRALIAN businesses and households will have to send about $650 billion overseas between 2020 and 2050 to buy permission to keep some of our coal-fired power stations and other industries operating.
    This staggering cost is indicated in the fine print of the Treasury modelling of the Government’s carbon dioxide tax and subsequent emissions trading scheme.
    The $650 billion will be to buy “permits” to emit CO2.
    The permits will be bought from sellers that don’t yet exist, or in markets that have yet to be formed, although the Government expects – hopes – they will develop over the next few years.
    But this week it was reported that European police agency Europol had revealed a fraudulent trade in these so-called carbon credits in the only serious market that does operate – for the European Union – was far more widespread than previously thought and could have cost EU taxpayers up to €5 billion ($7 billion) in lost revenue in just 18 months…
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/staggering-cost-of-co2-permits-revealed/story-fn7j19iv-1226122430767

    where is the rest of the MSM and why haven’t they been on to this scam long ago. i’ve posted the following at Bolt, but i may have been too late, cos comments seem to close down early:

    -as i’ve said previously, the carbon dioxide Emissions Trading Scheme is the Main Course. the carbon dioxide tax which is to be preceded by the compensation to keep voters sweet til the next scheduled election are merely the appetisers.
    turnbull and sinodinos are as gung ho on the ETS as the present Govt and, by whatever means necessary, we need to get Abbott to declare No Carbon Tax and No ETS. sadly, the Carbon Farming Initiative (which is for trading emissions, while locking up productive farming land) has already passed (on the day the Convoy of No Confidence was in Canberra) and will be rubber-stamped in the House of Reps. enough is enough. keave CO2 alone. -

    everyone is going apes**t on bolt’s blog and it might wipe some smiles off faces here on jo’s site just when we were enjoying the G.R.O.G.! LOL. congrats to whoever came up with the name.

    00

  • #
    pat

    forgot to excerpt the line: “That will be throwing away nearly $30,000 for every Australian, about $120,000 for a family of four.”

    00

  • #
    vk

    So are we going to see K. Rudd announcing on TV: “… this government has lost its way …”

    00

  • #
    Gee Aye

    Wow I get thumbs down for suggesting that Tony Abbott will win the next election AND that forces opposing him would denigrate themselves with a distasteful name (as opposed to one which suggests a bit of fun). I didn’t think the meaning was that obscure.

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  • #

    The zombies have GetUp!

    We, the living, have GROG.

    On nomenclature alone, the living shall prevail.

    00

  • #
    KeithH

    Overseas insider @ 7.

    My thoughts exactly but I do suggest a change of colour for that purpose. Green is not too popular anywhere I’ve been in the last 12 months. I wonder why? LOL

    Would love to send one in particular to Mr.Sleazy Albanese, the Minister of No Consequence in the last two most wasteful, inept and destructive governments in Australia’s history!

    00

  • #
    pattoh

    When Thomo was getting into the idea of running for parliament, one of his colleagues suggested that the best perks were “political fact finding tours” .

    Perhaps he has a hearing impediment & mis-understood.

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  • #
    Bruce D Scott

    This site is so very good for the soul, witty and accurate, thank you jo and friends.

    00

  • #
    Madjak

    Bumper sticker… Please…

    Turns out it was a kiwi who finally brought down the ginga ninja….

    …You’re welcome!

    I sure hope every person who knew about the minister of horizontal services behavior who didn’t report it to the police are up on charges as well. Make it public. I want names of these corrupt bastards to be made public.

    In all fairness, whilst the accusations are gross, thompson shouldn’t be hassled as the labor party selected him and put him in front of the public and asked them to vote for him. What does that say about who’s buggering who?

    This mob more buggered than a really buggered bugger.

    00

  • #
    Speedy

    Evening all.

    With reference to Winston and his classical perspective, maybe the slogan for the Grog Party should be “In vino veritas”. I think you’ll find more “veritas” in the GROG Party than at Labor.

    By the way, did you know that Labor stands for

    “Logic Approximating Border of Reality”?

    Actually, I just made that last bit up – Labor stands for just about anything that will allow them to remain in power. Isn’t that right, Julia?

    Cheers,

    Speedy

    00

  • #
    Another Ian

    Speedy

    I thought it stood for “A Lick and a Promise”

    00

  • #
    Madjak

    A Liar and a Pickpocket?

    00

  • #
    Speedy

    Another Ian

    We’ve had plenty of promises, anyway…

    Anyone got any idea what GREEN stands for?

    Cheers,

    Speedy

    00

  • #
    MaryFJohnston

    Re @1

    I took that to mean Get Rid Of Tax

    Is there some other meaning that you people are annoyed by??

    00

  • #
    Madjak

    GREEN = Grotty Extraordinarily Extreme Nazis?

    10

  • #
    cohenite

    David Stockwell compares the scandal in New Zealand with the unexplained tampering/adjustments of the temperature record with what Ken Stewart found in respect of the Australian temperature record:

    http://landshape.org/enm/global-warming-trends-gimme-some-truth/

    In my opinion this is all you would require to seek a judicial review of the official BoM temperature record.

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  • #
    Speedy

    LABOR = Lacking Ability, Brains Or Reason.

    00

  • #
    mobilly1

    Just a few thoughts
    On The Convoy . A magnificent effort and Highest Regards for all who Invested time with the convoy.
    On this Gillard Minority Government , They have a lot to answer , History will show them no credence.
    On the Rudd Government , History will show the start of the rot.
    On the Howard Government , History will show and is showing , We had a Decent Government that did
    run a very good Sound Financial economy and should be well applauded .
    ( Just dont forget : The demise of the Howard Government was , Howard`s ETS , Campaigned for in the 2007 election )
    Notice the Trend : Liberal Government first with the agenda , Labor gets in then Introduces the same agenda , Labor then
    gets returned to Government saying no ETS , What is the current Agenda an ETS
    The Australian People have voted this ETS out twice , We are now at the point of voting it out for a third time.
    The same ETS Agenda over and over again .
    What`s with that ?

    00

  • #
    Joe Lalonde

    Jo,

    Here is my attempt…Leading Australia to Bankruptcy with Offensive Restrictions.

    Definition of LABOR.

    ;-)

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  • #
    Rick Bradford

    Ooh, can’t you just see the superior, sneering Lefties having fun with this one.

    Remember, they have no sense of humour and will forthwith try to tar the ‘Skeptic’ movement as self-confessed drunks and idiots. F**k ‘em, the self-righteous twerps.

    Still, if we form a QLD chapter, we will have to ‘passwordise’ the acronym so it reads ‘XXXX’. :)

    00

  • #
    Bush bunny

    Oh I haven’t had such a laugh. I can’t think of anything at the moment give me a minute or two. Not as good as some but I tried.

    L – loose

    A – and

    B – boring

    O – orifice

    U – useless

    R – Robbers

    G – Godless

    R – Realist

    E – Earth

    E – Engineers

    N – Nonsense

    G – Get

    R – Rid

    O – Of

    G – Godless politicians?

    No I’m no good at this.

    00

  • #
    Wayne, s. Job

    Those with a true heart make light of problems in extreme circumstances.
    Those with a true heart jest even more with parody when their enemies are
    abusing them. For they know they have won. ” First they ignore you, then they ridicule you,
    then they fight you, and then you win” Gandi.
    I just returned from a convoy and they ignored me and ridiculed me, now I am ready
    for the fight, bring it on Jooya.

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  • #
    Bush bunny

    With ref to Andrews article does he sock it to them. I must say I generally agree with 95% of what he writes.

    Thomson is a Turd with a capital ‘T’. Now someone is saying he has nothing to answer for. A solicitor who reckons no legal charges can be laid against him, he has done no wrong.

    I can see him wangling out of the 90k legal fee loaned or given to him by the NSW labor party. Unless he has forgotten to disclose this on his tax return. But not the HSU for campaign expenses, that I believe he has now declared to the AEC. Bit late, eh? But was he given permission by the Union to use their funds to support his campaign.

    Getting hotter and hotter and if this guy stays put then I would say he is trying to stay just to qualify for a pension, that I believe they can only claim if they survive one term.

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  • #
    Bush bunny

    PS I mean to say just look at him, deep set eyes, smiling to himself.
    Smart Arse attitude. The Convoy of No Confidence couldn’t have arrived in Canberra at a better time really.

    I believe if the ATO get involved they will kick A. With the media coverage this time, what a hay day for them, and the threats to the present HSU secretary (whom I think will make her more determined to see this through). This scandal has lifted the lid of a barrel of worms for the ALP and Julia Gillard. And I think it will be a bigger scandal than the Jim Cairns and Julie Morrosey affair that contributed to the Whitlam
    fall from grace.

    00

  • #
    J.H.

    G.R.O.G Party, stronger than the Tea Party….. Love it. Absolutely love it.

    MaryFJohnston: @ 22……

    I took that to mean Get Rid Of Tax

    Is there some other meaning that you people are annoyed by??

    Yeah, a small matter along the lines of: ” There will be no Carbon Tax under the Government I lead.”

    …. Abbott has promised to repeal the tax and we’re gonna G.R.O.G. all day long come election time….:-)

    00

  • #
    Charles Bouurbaki

    Let’s not be too harsh on Labor MPs. At least they’ve shown expertise in one of the two famous organisational challenges. But what of the other?

    Can they organise a piss-up in a brewery?

    00

  • #
    bananabender

    Cato the Elder ended every speech with the words Carthago delenda est – ‘Carthage must be destroyed’.

    Tony Abbot should end ever speech with the words ‘Labor must be removed’.

    00

  • #
    bananabender

    Many years ago a union heavy turned up to a building site run by one of my relatives in an attempt to disrupt work and recruit a few members. The unsuspecting union thug quickly scampered when asked if enjoyed eating hospital food. He never came back.

    00

  • #
    bananabender

    The pragmatists such as Graham Richardson need to march into Gillard’s office and demand her immediate resignation as PM. I honestly think the ALP will be destroyed by Gillard if they don’t act within a few days.

    The Labor realists may have to split to form a new centrist party. The socialist apparatchiks will be forced to join the Greens. The probable result will be 10-20 years of electoral oblivion. A healthy democracy needs a vigorous opposition.

    00

  • #
    Speedy

    Mary/Gee Aye

    Actually the program should be as follows:

    Phase 1 G.R.O.T. – Get Rid of Thomson. Followed soon after by a couple of G.R.O.G.’s.

    GROG #1 being Get Rid of Gillard (assuming the Labor Party don’t do so anyway.) GROG #2 being Get Rid of Greens – that will only happen once everyone wakes up to the waste and essentially misanthropic nature of their cuddly little cottage politicians.

    Cheers,

    Speedy

    00

  • #

    I personally do not care for Tea. But Grog? Where do I sign up! ;)

    00

  • #
    Joe V.

    Jo,
    What would you think of getting a Prominent Link or a Sticky to the Petition of No Confidence, up High on your Homepage , just for the few more weeks that it’s still open.

    I know you already have many links to it, but wouldn’t want casual browsers, or anyone who comes looking for it to miss it. Just for those who may want to print, sign & return it of course.

    A link to the Just Grounds Home page may suffice, where there are clear instructions what to do with it, unless you have something similsr, though it might benefit from a suitable Graphic to draw attention to the unfsmiliar browser too.

    I imagine you must have considerably more exposure than the Just Grounds site, for people likely to be looking for it.

    00

  • #
    ThomasJ

    Oh, how enourmously lovely + fun w G.R.O.G… :-D
    In Sweden ‘grog[g]‘ is, normally, a rather stiff drink of [type] Gin & Tonic, Whiskey & [Soda-]water &/or ice…
    Good Name + Label! Must find a corresponding, Swedish ‘translation’!

    Envy You all in ‘OZ’ for Your efforts – wish we’d have somewhat close to that here…

    Brgsd from the Bestcoust of Scandinavia!
    //ThomasJ

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  • #

    Thanks for keeping a sense of humor!

    Many folks have lost their humor, as well as trust in world leaders – for reasons documented in the revised Deep Roots of Climategate:

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10640850/20110722_Climategate_Roots.doc

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10640850/20110722_Climategate_Roots.pdf

    Occasional deception over the past 40 years has destroyed public confidence.

    A new reference [#55] to the life of Madam Marie Sklodowska Curie drives home the key conclusion (p. 4):

    Personal freedoms and government deception are incompatible.

    Please feel free to copy and save the latest version of the Deep Roots of Climategate on other servers.

    With kind regards,
    Oliver K. Manuel
    Former NASA Principal
    Investigator for Apollo

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  • #
    MaryFJohnston

    JH @33

    “”I took that to mean Get Rid Of Tax”"

    Just as long as you understood by that , I was ignoring him.

    Don’t give him air.

    He doesn’t comment or offer anything of use.

    He’s just doing research for his philosophy course or learning SAT for when he practices as a solicitor.

    00

  • #
    Another Ian

    Jo, Snip if “beyond the pale”

    Re Charles Bouurbaki:
    August 26th, 2011 at 10:22 pm

    An email doing the rounds says

    “Thought for the day:

    It’s not all bad news for the Australian Labor Party….

    At least one of their members can organise a root in a brothel.”

    00

  • #
    pattoh

    GREEN

    Gunna’

    Root

    Enterprise &

    Economy

    Now!

    00

  • #
    Bulldust

    The SMH has a long story on the back history of the whole Craig Thompson affair:

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/factional-brawl-could-sink-gillard-20110826-1jebw.html

    For a generally leftist paper this paints a scathing picture of the moral wasteland in the union strongholds that form the core of the Labor Party. It’s a wonder any of them can even lie straight in bed…

    Barring some new Democrat Party or the like, I can’t imagine my vote ever straying from the Lib/Nat Coalition again. Most people rank politicians down there with used car salesmen, loan sharks, and advocate climatologists (couldn’t resist) but Labor seems to be plumbing new lows.

    It truly boggles the mind that Gillard is so desperate to cling onto power that she is willing to destroy any credibility Labor has in the process. My fervent hope is that this somehow politically explodes in the near term s that we don’t have to unwind the lunacy of a carbon (dioxide) tax and pointless mining tax, let alone more of Labor’s unprecendented wasteful spending.

    00

  • #
    Mark

    Speedy #38:

    Gonna be a while before the Greens completely disappear. To much extreme left mantra being rammed down the kid’s throats at school.

    I wonder if Bazza O’Farrell realises this and is prepared to begin the process of uprooting the pernicious Marxist characters who totally pervade the Education Department.

    If he doesn’t, then unfortunately, the “gang of many” just restarts where it left off when the Coalition loses power at some future time. Any wonder why the Greens want to lower the voting age to 16!

    00

  • #
    Gee Aye

    Mary/Gee Aye
    Actually the program should be as follows:
    Phase 1 G.R.O.T. – Get Rid of Thomson. Followed soon after by a couple of G.R.O.G.’s.
    GROG #1 being Get Rid of Gillard (assuming the Labor Party don’t do so anyway.) GROG #2 being Get Rid of Greens – that will only happen once everyone wakes up to the waste and essentially misanthropic nature of their cuddly little cottage politicians.
    Cheers,
    Speedy

    Speedy,

    Just focusing on the joke and not any deeper meaning – I was really thinking that the Thomson affair would be better served by adding P.E. to the acronym in question but I could not come up with anything suitable.

    dammit where is my avatar

    00

  • #
    pattoh

    One thing for absolute certain:- the historians & social commentators will be mulling over this government & the whole AGW scam for centuries.

    00

  • #

    [...] That Australian sense of humour: not the Tea Party, the G.R.O.G. Party [...]

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  • #
    incoherent rambler

    pattoh # 49

    AGW will be studied for many years.
    This govt will be forgotten in a very short period. However, the PM will be immortalized with expressions like :
    “gillardesque”
    “totally gillarded”
    “told a little white gillard”
    “that person is a complete gillard”
    “he did not lie, he gillarded”
    “gillards, damned gillards and statistics”
    “well that was a total gillard”
    “it’s worse than a mess ,it’s a gillard”
    “don’t try the gillard with me!”

    I deleted a few.
    Suggestions welcome to expand the list.

    00

  • #

    When this nightmare is over we may see F.R.O.G. stickers; Finally Rid Of Gillard

    00

  • #
    Madjak

    “I repeat did not have gillard relations with that woman, monika lewinsky”?

    00

  • #
    pattoh

    Perhaps Fabian Barbies will fetch a premium ( Like Joh for PM T shirts) one day on eBay.

    00

  • #

    Hmm!
    Let’s have some fun here.
    My good lady wife is a keen gardener, and over the years she has, er, ‘persuaded’ me to join here in that pastime.
    I’ve developed a love for Australian native trees.
    In my time in the RAAF, whenever you were posted away from a Unit, you usually got a going away type party, well, you know the Military, any excuse to have a few beers, and you were always given a gift, more often than not, an engraved pewter stein. Towards the end, when it came to gift giving time, I asked instead of a pewter, for a book on Australian Native trees, and I now have a healthy collection of around 8 large coffee table sized reference books, some of which I have purchased myself over the years, and those that I have also add to my wife’s collection.
    Because of our now mutual liking for gardening, every so often, we cruise the nurseries, and one of those is the local nursery section at Bunnings.
    There is a flowering annual or perennial called Gillardia.
    You can buy them in either as those small seed packets, or already potted up as small plants.
    They have a basically red coloured flower, er, coincidentally.
    The correct name is Gaillardia, but it has been shortened to a more pronounceable name as is sometimes the way with plants.
    They are native to North America, and go under the common name of Blanket Flower.
    Here is a link to a page that mentions it as Gillardia, so you don’t think I’m just making this up.
    http://www.google.com.au/search?q=Gillardia&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=Gillardia&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&nfpr=1&prmd=ivns&ei=UG9YTrTxFazSmAXbkLGxDA&start=10&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4dd86e68d6c231d3&biw=1280&bih=884
    Here is the link to the main Wiki page for Gaillardia, and from this page, you can see the main varieties.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaillardia
    One of those there at that page is Gaillardia pinnatifida var. linearis which goes under the common name of the Red Dome Blanketflower, which sort of aptly describes our leader.
    Needless to say, there are none of this variety of flowers in our garden.
    Tony.

    00

  • #
    pattoh

    But Tony, how long is the bloody flowering season, I am getting hayfever.

    It should be declared noxious, it is killing the native fauna & choking the habitat

    I suspect your are right, definitely a northern hemispere plant probably best( self assessed) suited for a small patch of ground in New York

    00

  • #

    Yeah!
    The Subway!
    Tony.

    00

  • #

    Join the revolution?

    What revolution? This is anti-politics. No new paradigm is being presented here, just more of the same media beat-up. Both the right and the left are on a race to the bottom. No-one wins from this. Not the left, the nor right, or the country and its people.

    We’ve already seen the Gillard Government covering up for Thomson and Labor giving him $90,000. Was that an inducement to an MP? A payment to buy his slience? – Bolt

    Funny, didn’t see Bolt complaining about the near identical situation enjoyed by David Davis. Can Andrew spell the word H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E?

    Gillard repeatedly insisted on her innocence, and I’ve seen no evidence at all to the contrary. I note this to remark yet again on her poor judgement and the Labor/union culture. – Bolt

    Guilt by association. Well played Mr bolt. As always, your mastery of logic is impeccable. A greater mind has not graced the Australian political commetariat. /sarc

    If my lover robs a bank, does that mean I go to gaol? That is an awesome vision you have for Oz there Mr Bolt. I can’t wait until you are our supreme leader.

    MaryFJohnston @ 22:

    Is there some other meaning that you people are annoyed by??

    Stay classy babe!

    Let’s all get back to the science. This is embarrassing!

    00

  • #
    Tel

    Gonna be a while before the Greens completely disappear. To much extreme left mantra being rammed down the kid’s throats at school.

    I expect the green movement will continue to grow, although the whole climate change thing will bother them for a while, they ultimately will just silently sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened.

    When you get down to it, the Australian Labor Party consists of two basic demographics:

    Group #1: are the genuine working class people, who are not well educated, work at simple manual jobs and tend to be old-style socialist in their politics.

    Group #2: are the middle class, middle aged, university educated, hand wringing, angst-ridden organizers who are sure they know exactly what is best for Group #1. These people almost always end up getting hold of administrative positions where they inevitably bolster their own power (all in the name of helping someone else of course).

    The two demographics are incompatible. What we will see is the ALP finally get re-taken by Group #1, and the angst-ridden latte sippers move to the Green party.

    Thing is, Group #1 are ever diminishing in Australia because manufacturing has moved to China.

    00

  • #
    Gee Aye

    LABOR- all that is missing is U.

    So anyone else read Christian Kerr’s article in the Weekend Australian, Enquirer P7?

    00

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    Helen Armstrong

    GREEN = Gone Red Envionnmental Eco Nazi

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    Gee Aye

    Waffle in 58,

    while I agree with you regarding the rhetoric inherent in slogans (I mean who is inspired by “Join the revolution”? “Stronger than the Tea Party”, I take to be going along with the usual meaning of the name G.R.O.G.) and the hypocrisy of many commentators (on all sides of the debate), this thread is not about science so it is a pointless to call for it to be discussed here. Are you asking for a new thread on the Science?

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    Mal

    Ah, a Bolt fan. That explains everything. What has any of this got to do with climate science. Oh, sorry, I forgot. You are not really interested in the science, you are only interested in closing down any discussion about what should be done about climate change.

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    Mal

    GREEN = Gone Red Envionnmental Eco Nazi Ah where would we be without moronically over the top name calling!

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    MaryFJohnston

    Pattoh @ 56
    When you say:

    “”I suspect your are right, definitely a northern hemispere plant probably best( self assessed) suited for a small patch of ground in New York”".

    I hope you are not suggesting this species be transplanted to the UN ?

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    Gee Aye @ 62:

    I have no problem with a political discuss here. In fact, I relish it. But, for a blog that proclaims such high value on logic and reasoning to link to hypocritical imbeciles like Andrew Bolt and Alan Jones then, I’m going to call it out.

    Frankly, the concept of relying on divisive media figures to promote a scientific point of view is offensive. They aren’t interested in the science. They are pushing their own wheelbarrows and using whatever talking points they can get to further their own agenda. Both these people, whom are regularly linked to in order to highlight ‘public debate’, only have a handful of arguments. These are constructed by other people and they drill them into their interviewees over and over and over again. Never actually understanding the science or the argument, only rote learning the questions which are difficult for alarmists to answer. If I were to describe both these individuals it would be “the light is on but no-one’s home.

    Venturing into the political arena is a grey area for a science blog. It is easy to make mistakes in logic just because that argument aligns with your political point of view. There is always a fog-of-war in political discussion. You rarely ever see your own logical fallicies Those on the left will see the flaws in the political argument and devalue the scientific argument as having as numerous and as erroneous flaws as the politics, therefore, dismiss the entire blog as junk.

    As a libertarian, I don’t know which is worse, the logical flaws on the both side of politics around climate science, or right-wingers referring to themselves as tea-partiers and libertarians. :)

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    Gee Aye

    Tel @59

    Group #1, the unskilled/semi-trained has actually stabilised (or at least is not in step decline) mostly because the service industry sector has grown – cleaners being an example of a major growth occupation in this category.

    This is not to negate your argument since the employees entering these jobs have different histories and allegiances to the “old” working class. Some have fled communist rule for instance and many are parents of young, ambitious and entrepreneurial workers. So there is no nature or socially enforcedl alliance to Labor or the union movement.

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    Speedy

    If the ABC was Relevant (Part 39)

    (Or if the IPCC made wine.)

    IPCC Vintage 2007.Reviewer’s Notes:

    Although the IPCC brand has struggled with declining market share of late, it continues to enjoy glowing endorsements from its employees and salespersons world-wide. Clearly a Red, this non-carbonated varietal derives from a number of regions, but concentrates on a mountainside property in the Yalal region of Russia, where much of the stock originates. Growing conditions in the region are enhanced by liberal use of organic fertiliser from contented cows, which lends the wine its distinctive palette.

    The wine has a strong nose – a powerful blend of rat and freshly picked cherries, with more than a whiff of corruption. The tasting experience was enhanced by a clothes peg.

    Colour is brown and murky, and obvious attempts to avoid transparency are evident. However, when held up to examination in the clear light of day, it was possible to see right through it, and the winemaker recommends it served in rose coloured glasses.

    On first impressions, the wine has a robust body – top heavy, bloated and full. Further interrogation, however, reveals that it has no substance whatsoever.

    The palette promises much, but fails to deliver. An attempt was made at sophistication, but it only achieves a confusing mix of befuddled complexity and naïve over-simplification. Tainted by several conflicts of interest, it leaves a bitter residual aftertaste.

    Price is a closely-kept secret, and will only be revealed after the transaction is complete; payment is understood to take place on an ongoing basis at the discretion of the vendor. Previous customers in California, Spain and Portugal are said to be struggling with the tab. However, the wine itself will not keep and is suspected of having already gone past its prime – if it ever had one.

    Best served by candlelight in a cold, dark room during a power brownout.

    Late news: With insiders already speculating that the upcoming Vintage 2012 will be more of the same, IPCC has responded by retaining the original winemaker and drastically increasing the advertising budget. Who would like to write the review on this one?

    Over to you…

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    Gee Aye

    Waffle,

    thanks for the clarification. I agree with you re Andrew Bolt and Alan Jones. I have not seen anything they have produced that contributes to the core of the climate debate – certainly no original research or ability to show they understand any pertinent science – but certainly they have contributed considerably to the mood of the debate and their constituents.

    I agree with you that this thread was much better without Bolt addendum as his quotes don’t gel with the lighter comments that the bumper sticker has elicited. On the other hand the quote is not about climate and it is completely up to JC what she puts in her blog.

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    Another Ian

    60Gee Aye:
    August 27th, 2011 at 5:23 pm
    LABOR- all that is missing is U.

    I thought it was a guarantee of taking “U” out of work

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    MaryFJohnston

    Tel

    The scenario is evocative of the old description of self centredness written by Leonardo Da Vincii many years ago.

    “”The two demographics are incompatible. What we will see is the ALP finally get re-taken by Group #1, and the angst-ridden latte sippers move to the Green party.”"

    His version:

    “”Going round and round in ever diminishing circles until they disappear up their own rectums in a blinding blue flash of light.”"

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    Madjak

    Wow,

    It sure looks like some concerned greens and reds have just come out of a blood letting meeting over the last few hours

    Is it a meal break or a last supper. Feel free to spill the beans. Will gillard be rolled before the tax on the periodic table gets shoved down our throats?

    Please refer to the excellent quote at 30 by wayne.

    Once again, it goes to show that if in doubt side with the team with the sense if humour. They obviously have a clear conscience.

    btw your host has every right to pick whatever topic she chooses.

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    Steve Schapel

    Bulldust (#46)

    … so that we don’t have to unwind the lunacy of a carbon (dioxide) tax

    This is confusing to me. I was under the impression that Abbott & Co also have a policy of attempting to control the climate by regulating carbon dioxide emissions. Am I mistaken?

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    Bob of Castlemaine

    TonyfromOz: @ 55

    The propagation of exotic species such as Gillardia in Australian cities is fraught with danger.
    Long ago assimilationist botanists such as Von Muller discovered this when during the nineteenth century they misguidedly spread the seeds of such invasive feral species as blackberry into the Australian bush.
    When ferals such as these escape into the Australian countryside the consequences can be catastrophic for the native population. Once released often it is impossible to limit the spread of these invasive ferals, they spread over the landscape and prosper by choking the life out of the native population.

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    Bulldust

    Steve Schapel:
    You are mistaken… the Coalition (the original one, not the Rainbow one) has a concept called “non-core promises.” Howard was the champion of those. The 5% CO2 reduction through direct action is clearly a non-core promise. Labor & Greens & other loonies like to pretend otherwise.

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    Bush bunny

    Bob of C – 75. When I was young in England, we would go blackberry picking and made jams and puddings from our pickings. The blackberry
    was often trained into hedges dividing fields. But Australian blackberries are much bigger and sumptious than ours were.

    Goats get rid of blackberry without having to poison the bushes.

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    Twodogs

    You know things are bad for Labor when Rudd starts to look like a better option. He’s to the right of Gillard, but his self-love is too irritating for me, even more than her nasally South Australian cringe. At least with her there’s no one doubting her extremism.

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    Speedy

    Mal @ 64

    Next time you want to defend the intellectual power of the of Labor and the Greens, just remember those wonderful words of wisdom from Mrs. Gump:

    Stupid is what stupid does.

    When was the last time the Labor did anything that WASN’T stupid?

    Cheers,

    Speedy

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    Joe V.

    Pollies are not to be trusted, but you get the tyranny you choose. Then you rely on their opponents & a free & independent press to keep the ‘honest’.

    Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
    C.S.Lewis

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    cohenite

    Waffle; I think you are unfair about Bolt and too idelistic and unrealistic in your appraisal of the dynamics of the situation; if we had a critical MSM similar to Bolt, who does attempt to understand the science, AGW would close down in a week; AGW is a POLITICAL process; to defeat it requires politcal commentary; the science is dead in the water but until that and the manifest evils of the AGW ‘solutions’ are publicised through the media AGW will continue. I actually think Bolt has done more to oppose AGW than anyone else in the debate and that is with all due deference to our host who has also done a splendid job but in a more constrained context. In a way Bolt is the equivalent of Pickering who almost single-handedly brought down that other ego driven, utility free labour government headed by the buffoon Whitlam.

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    Oscar the Grouch

    This is ground-breaking stuff. For anyone who hasn’t heard about the recent findings of a ‘climate change’ experiment in Geneva I would suggest you read it.

    CERN – Cloud Experiment : strong evidence that the sun may be responsible for climate change.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/25/some-reactions-to-the-cloud-experiment/#more-45850

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    pattoh

    MFJ @65

    Yep I reckon a comfortable gig for (Fabian) services rendered is a strong motivation for our current leader & her predecessor. After all it got their colleague from across the ditch control of the UN Development Fund. The possibilities are manifold!

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    Louis Hissink

    Waffle etc,

    You don’t debate science, you do experiments. What is misconstrued is when a political agenda is framed in scientese, as AGW is, and then sure there is debate about that involving scientific couched arguments, but it isn’t actually science per se.

    Supporting Cohenite’s comment, AGW has been comprehensively, and scientifically, falsified – but this means nought for it isn’t science.

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    J.H.

    MaryFJohnston:….. Ah, all is clear.No probs, I missed that it was a response to someone else…. P’haps I need some real Grog…;-)

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    Steve Schapel

    Bulldust (#75)…

    Ok. Thanks for your explanation. It is somewhat reassuring.

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    Steve Schapel

    Incoherent (#51)…

    Thank you very much for that entertaining expansion to our vocabulary.

    May I suggest an addition…
    “hoisted with his own gillard”
    (hopefully to be applied to browns, greens, and reds)

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    MaryFJohnston

    Mal @64

    Sorry I started to read “”GREEN = Gone Red Environmental Eco Nazi”" and liked it so much I gave it a green tik.

    Then read the rest..

    Can you move one of those green tiks to a red Thumbs down.

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    val majkus

    sorry if this has been mentioned but here’s a copy of an e mail I received today

    The next rally

    “CONVOY OF NO CONSEQUENCE”

    Date and time: Thursday, 1st September 2011 at 12 noon.

    Location: We meet on Livingstone Road (corner of Marrickville Road) and from there we march
    to Mr Anthony Albanese’s office 334a Marrickville Road, Marrickville.

    Last Monday, 22 August 2011, eleven separate convoys from every state in Australia converged on Canberra to peacefully demand a new election.

    Thousands of ordinary, hardworking Aussies from all over the nation, drove semi-trailers, trucks, motor homes, four-wheel drives, cars and other vehicles to the ACT (some spending thousands of dollars on fuel) to exercise their democratic right to express their views, directly to the Government. People have had enough of this Government’s waste and mismanagement of their hard earned dollars AND are sick and tired of being IGNORED.

    Unfortunately (and undemocratically), not all who wanted to attend were able to do so as police escorted trucks to sites well away from Parliament House.
    Another example of the contempt shown by this government to the people was the statement made by Mr Anthony Albanese, in Question Time when he referred to the “Convoy of No Confidence” as the “Convoy of No Consequence”.

    This attack on ordinary, hardworking Australians, under parliamentary privilege, is cowardly, and CATA will NOT stay silent.
    This is why our next rally will be held in Marrickville. We will meet on Livingstone Road (corner of Marrickville Road) and from there, march to Mr Albanese’s office.

    We know that People Power is EFFECTIVE. We will not be insulted and silenced by parliamentarians whose generous salaries are paid by us, the consumers and taxpayers of Australia.

    Truckies are invited to join us!

    An invitation will be sent to Mr Albanese.

    Please email us, if you will be attending the Rally and if you can help to distribute our new flyers.

    Jacques Laxale & Team
    0438 758 901

    Consumers & Taxpayers Association Inc.
    Web: http://www.stopcarbonlies.com
    Email: cata@hotmail.com.au

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    La verdad que es un caso de corrupción que no debería ocurrir . Una vergüenza para los Australianos contar con gente como esta.

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    rjm

    val majkus @88

    What a great idea!! Let all those convoys roll on to each Labor MPs Offices and see what the Convoy of no Consequence really is.

    Say YES to an election now !!!

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    Great idea but unfortunately the GROG Party is likely to have a short life span. My suggestion for the rebirth when this happens is the GIG Party (Gillard Is Gone).

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    cohenite @ 80:
    There’s a difference between Bolt and Pickering. Bolt pushes a right-wing agenda. Pickering is politically neutral. I know, I’ve had professional dealings with Pickering in the Kevin 07 campaign(I’m happy to work with and for any political party, just like Pickering).

    Bolt is preaching to the choir. Verbally abusing guests and politicians alike does not speak to the alarmists. All they see is bad manners so the argument is switched off. If Bolt had a full grasp of climate science, not just the ‘denier’ talking points then he could engage in nuanced discussion that wouldn’t degenerate into BM on his part.

    Andrew ‘throw your hands up in the air’ Bolt needs to produce more than invective, politically biased editorial to make the left-wing stop and reconsider their position. Unfortunately, Bolt and Jones have a rich history of hypocrisy that pretty much guarantees the left is not listening.

    Look at the way Alan Jones describes scepticism as a truly grass roots movement. If it was, then why is he the chairman and financial backer in chief of a small group of silver-hairs which he buses to protest rallies? If you think that looks anything but ridiculous to left-wing alarmists then, I’d say you need to start mixing with a wider spectrum on the political landscape.

    In the long run, these two are not helping the debate. They are hijacking it for personal gain. The same way Tony Abbot is.

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    incoherent rambler

    to make the left-wing stop and reconsider their position

    I am not sure that has ever happened. Examples please.

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    Lionell Griffith

    Waffle @ 89,

    The left et.al. has never listened to reason, science, and a rational approach to problem solving so why worry about them? Attempting to convert them to reason is a total waste of time and effort. We need to go around them, under them, over the, and through them but NEVER EVER cooperate with them or even be polite toward them! They have everything to gain from us and we have nothing to gain from them. They need us and our ability to create real wealth. We need them for absolutely nothing.

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    waffle,
    thanks for that insight.
    At long last, I think I’ve finally ‘got’ it now.
    What we need to do is to do away with everyone who argues against the ‘establishment’ position.
    Right!
    Tony.

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    cohenite

    Waffle; convince the left!!! I’m afraid that is impossible; Lionel is right; I have had vast experience discussing AGW and other pet favourite issues with the left for years; the only thing you get from them is spleen and invective; they are ego driven creatures; their ‘issues’ are merely used to highlight their sense of superiority; by questioning the issue you are questioning their sense of superiority.

    What Bolt does is continually reveal the paucity of logic and reason behind the left’s positions; it is a classic and ongoing case of the Emperor has no clothes; to be made to look ridiculous is the nemesis of the left; but to make them look ridiculous is unavoidable because their positions are ridiculous!

    For this reason there is no way you can critique the left diplomatically.

    Now as for your other assertions about “silver-hairs” and scepticism; I’m not sure what you mean by that; and I also don’t know what you mean by Bolt’s hypocrisy; he seems a straight shooter to me, even if I do get banned occasionally from his site.

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    Roy Hogue

    G. R O. G. might stand for Get Rid Of Gore.

    He’s never at a loss for a villain to blame.

    Knocking off two birds with one stone just has to be a good thing.

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    From the responses it’s pretty easy to identify the problem. Lack of empathy. Failure to understand the alternative point of view denies any opportunity to illuminate false assumptions and to sway option. Or, dare I say it, shift worldview. As long as your approach is us and them not we, then I suggest don’t try. Just come this blog and vent your frustration at how ‘stupid people are’. I myself, have had great success with informed discussion about climate change alarmism. But, then again, I was a believer once so I can see the alarmist point of view. And I never considered myself stupid for trusting scientists and being worried about the state of our atmosphere.

    Oh, and just a bit off topic(more political). As long as you believe one side of politics is stupid nonsense, you will forever be a slave, the divided and conquered.

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    cohenite

    Waffle, what is the “alarmist point of view”?

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    option = opinion, lulz

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    Grant (NZ)

    The irony, that is usually lost on most Labour politicians, is that of all the political movements round the world, their policies have been the ones that have cost their constituency their livelihoods. And the policies of AGW are essentially anti-worker too.

    I cannot find the quote but it is something like “You cannot benefit the worker by attacking the employer” and attributed to someone like Lincoln. Essentially the anti-employer policies of Labour movements around the world have cost many jobs.

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    One of the root causes of the alarmist position is an exasperation of perceived greed within society. Having so much more than we need to survive is unnatural for the human condition. This creates a disconnect from reality, an altered mindstate. Survival stress and hunger are our natural life conditions which promote happy drug production in our brain. This is why western society is so miserable.

    We all view the world through grey glasses because we don’t realise how good our lives are. It is our natural state to be in crisis, hence we invent them in our minds, create wars, do depraved things to each other to stimulate that drug production.

    A bit of personal responsibility to create some austerity everyday, such as diet and exercise, allows the body to create those natural conditions that leaves us more fulfilled and relaxed about life. We get our drug fix. There is no silver bullet, we just need to hammer the point that life is good and to respect the chemical processes in the body which allowed human beings to conquer a situation that nearly drove our species to extinction once.

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    pattoh

    Does anybody else think it is amazing that the whole “credit card/prostitute/Thomson” thing has got even the leftard ABC (female) journos barely concealing their feminist/good unionist indignation over principals (in the end a result of one individuals human foibles) while they still wear their “Boadecia like” Earth-mother principals into the battle to destroy Australia’s standard of living, economic sovereignty & property rights?

    To me the disparity in world view is dumbfounding!

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    Grant (NZ)

    Pattoh

    Paradoxes abound. It’s amazing how many are oblivious to them.

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    Winston

    On topic this time the conclusion to my play, using Shakespeare’s dialogue almost exclusively with surprisingly little editing required. Perhaps Shakespeare was prescient, or perhaps the path to self destruction through over-ambition, disdain for the ordinary people, and monumental vanity and stupidity are universal and timeless………………..

    Act III Scene I:

    Narrator: And so the stage is set, thought Maximus (Rudd), for the long awaited fruition of his plan to return to his rightful place as Caesar, while dispensing a little rough justice to the woman who had so recently usurped his authority. Having sown the seeds of doubt among Julia’s supporters, he knew that a combination of ambition, fear and self-preservation would cause them to turn on her, as indeed they once did to him. He relied on the inherent nature of these senators for hatred and subterfuge, knowing that their lack of moral fibre and rectitude would see them act against their once esteemed leader.

    Theatrum Absurdum, the Ides of March. All the various senators are in attendance, awaiting Caesar to appear for her scheduled speech. A murmur of voices is heard throughout the chamber as many whisper under their breath at the scandal that has enveloped Dobellius (Thomson). This corruption, and the foolhardy and transparent attempt to cover up the misdeed, along with the general discontent of the populace, has loosened Caesar’s once vice-like grip (pun intended) on power.

    Caesar enters and approaches a crowd of her “followers” including Brutus (Swan) and Cassius (Brown), unaware that plans are afoot to replace her. Dobellius (Thomson) is brought before Caesar in disgrace, no longer able to accept Caesar’s protection, due to the efforts of Favonius (Bolt) in spreading the truth of his corruption.

    Dobellius (Thomson):
    (Humiliated, crawling) Most high, most mighty, and most puissant Caesar!
    Dobellius throws before thy seat
    an humble heart!
    (Kneeling)

    Julia Caesar (Gillard):
    I must prevent thee, Dobellius, from
    these “couchings” with these lowly courtesans.
    (Translation- For god sake, keep your trousers zipped and leave the hookers alone!)

    They might fire the blood of ordinary men,
    (Translation: I know you might be horny)

    and turn pre-ordinance and first decree
    against the law of Utopia Viridus.
    (Translation: but did you have to illegally raid the Union funds to pay for your dalliances and break the law, getting me in the sh*t!)

    Be not fond,
    to think that Caesar bears such rebel blood
    that will be thaw’d from the true quality
    with that which melteth fools!
    (Translation: Don’t think I’m gonna let you get away with this sh*t, nothing you can say now can possibly save your sorry arse!)

    I mean, sweet words,
    low-crooked courtsies and base spaniel-fawning!
    (Translation: Don’t crawl to me!)

    You, brother, by decree are banished, to Labor no more.
    If thou dost bend and pray and fawn for Caesar,
    I will spurn thee, like a Kerr’s cur, out of my way.
    (Translation: Don’t let the door hit you on the bum on the way out! You’re about as popular here as Malcolm Fraser at a Gough Whitlam memorial service.)

    Know this, Caesar doth not wrong, nor without cause
    will she be satisfied!
    (Translation: I am utterly blameless and you have really p*ssed me right off)

    Metellus Cimber (Garrett): (pleading)
    Is there no voice more worthy than my own
    to sound more sweetly in great Caesar’s ear,
    for the repealing of my banish’d brother, Dobellius?

    Brutus (Swan): (fawning and obsequious)
    I kiss thy hand, but not in flattery, Caesar,
    desiring thee that Dobellius may
    have an immediate freedom of repeal.

    Julia Caesar (Gillard): (affronted)
    What, Brutus!

    Cassius (Brown):
    (fearing Caesar’s actions would loosen his vicarious grip on power) Pardon, Caesar. As low as to thy foot doth Cassius fall (prostrating himself),
    to beg enfranchisement for Dobellius.

    Julia Caesar (Gillard):
    I could be well moved, if I were as you.
    (Translation: Tell someone who cares!)

    If I could pray to move, prayers would move me.
    But I am constant as the northern star,
    (Translation:I’m as stubborn as a mule and I won’t change for anyone. I am totally immune to logic or argument)

    of whose true-fix’d and resting quality
    there is no fellow in the firmament.
    (Translation: Nobody is half as pigheaded and intransigent as I am)

    The skies are painted with unnumber’d sparks,
    they are all fire and every one doth shine,
    but there’s but one in all doth hold his place.*

    (*Author’s note: Shakespeare, prescient as he often was, is perhaps alluding to natural climate variation and the Cosmic Ray theory four centuries before Svensmark!)

    So in the world; ’tis furnish’d well with men,
    and men are flesh and blood, and apprehensive.
    (Translation: All you men are such wimps and gutless wonders)

    Yet in the number I do know but one
    woman that unassailable holds on her rank,
    unshaked of motion: and that I am she!
    Let me a little show it, even in this.
    That I was constant; Dobellius should be banish’d,
    and constant do remain to keep him so.
    (Translation: He’s stuffed and he’s gone, and I’m changing my mind for no one!)

    Cinna (Wong):
    (pleading) O Caesar!

    Julia Caesar (Gillard):
    Hence! Wilt thou lift up Olympus?
    (Translation: “Get lost! You are pushing sh*t uphill”)

    Decimus Brutus (Crean):
    (fawning) Great Caesar.

    Julia Caesar (Gillard):
    Doth not Brutus bootless kneel?
    (Translation: If Brutus can kneel before me, why can’t the rest of you?)

    Casca (Shorten):
    Speak, hands for me!

    (Translation: Talk is cheap, and action speaks louder than words- take that!)

    (Casca (Shorten) first, then the other Conspirators (Brown, Ferguson, Garrett, Crean, Wong) and, finally, Brutus (Swan) stab Caesar (Gillard))

    Julia Caesar (Gillard): Et tu, Brute?
    (Translation: WTF!)
    Then fall, Caesar!

    (Caesar dies)

    Circus Maximus: (Emerging from shadows) Quid pro quo, Caesar!
    (Translation: What goes around comes around, bitch!)

    Narrator: Maximus (Rudd) knelt over Julia Caesar’s lifeless, bloodied corpse. Lifting her body and carrying it to the pulpit, he placed it beside him as he delivered what he was hoping would be the oration to re-assert his claim to leadership in Utopia Viridus.

    Circus Maximus: Friends, Bogans, Countrymen! Lend me your ears.
    I come to bury Caesar (Gillard), not to praise her.
    (Translation: Good riddance to bad rubbish!)

    The evil that men and women do lives after them.
    The good is oft interred with their bones.
    So let it be with Caesar (Gillard).
    (Translation: Julia really crossed the line when she double crossed me, and now she has been hoisted on her own petard and consigned to the rubbish bin of history)

    The noble Brutus (Swan)
    hath told you that Caesar (Gillard) was ambitious.
    If it were so, it was a grievous fault.
    And grievously hath Caesar answer’d it.

    (Translation: If Brutus (Swan) had lost confidence in her, then what does that tell you about her fitness for leadership)

    Here, under leave of Brutus (Swan) and the rest–
    For Brutus (Swan) is an honourable man!
    So are they all, all honourable men and women.
    Come I to speak in Caesar’s (Gillard’s) funeral.

    (Translation: Don’t think ill of the conspirators who stabbed her in the back, because now I can dance on her grave!)

    Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. You all did love her once, not without cause.
    What cause withholds you then, to mourn for her?

    (Translation: She may have had some good qualities, but she was a dog’s breakfast of a Caesar. And, if she had had a bit of spine and supported me in the beginning, none of this would have happened)

    O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
    And men have lost their reason. Bear with me……….My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar,
    and I must pause till it come back to me.

    (Translation: Give me a second. Let me savour the moment. Victory is oh so sweet! Better her than me, I can tell you!)

    Narrator: When Maximus (Rudd) had finished his speech, he expected thunderous applause and a “Hail, the conquering hero” type response. But instead an almost deathly pall befell the chamber, as the prospect of a return to his autocratic, self-serving rule was met with the stunned silence and revulsion it surely deserved.

    Act III Scene II:

    Narrator: Marcus Antonius (Abbott) now seized the opportunity, having remained silent for some years in the face of a most corrupt and incompetent government, having watched this once great Empire dwindling into insignificance with every passing day at the hands of these vandals. The time was now ripe for change and the moment of truth was now at hand…………………………….

    Marcus Antonius(Abbott):
    Have patience, gentle friends! It is not important that you know how Caesar (Gillard) loved you.
    You are not wood, you are not stones, but real men and women.
    And, being the common people of this great land, bearing the will of Caesar (Gillard).

    (Translation: Caesar (Gillard) may have pretended to care for your welfare, but you really were suffering under the thumb of Caesar)

    It will inflame you, it will make you mad!
    ‘Tis good you know not that you are her heirs. For, if you should, O, what would come of it!

    (Translation: You are going to pop your corks when you find out the size of the national debt that these vandals have left you. We will be paying it off for generations to come)

    But yesterday the word of Caesar (Gillard) might
    have stood against the world; now lies she there.
    And none so poor to do her reverence.

    (Translation: Julia may one day have sought a cushy UN position, but her colleagues have done her in before she could get there. No one could possibly be so ignorant or impoverished as to lack understanding of her ambition for One World Government)

    O masters, if I were disposed to stir
    your hearts and minds to mutiny and rage,
    I should do Brutus (Swan) wrong, and Cassius (Brown) wrong. They who, you all know, are “honourable” men:
    I will not do them wrong.
    (Translation: I won’t punish the conspirators, I’ll leave that up to the electorate!)

    But here’s a parchment with the seal of Caesar (Gillard);
    I found it in her closet, ’tis her will!
    Let but the commons hear this testament.
    (Translation: I have in my hand her Fabian socialist manifesto- it’s a real eye opener!)

    Yea, they would beg a lock of her red hair for memory,
    and, dying, mention it within their own wills,
    bequeathing it as a rich legacy to their issue.

    (Translation: In future, the conspirators will try to eulogize Julia’s leadership, spinning a tale of misfortune and misrepresenting the true facts, to weasel their way back to future power and to pretend their legacy is anything other than an utter disaster and an embarrassment)

    If you have tears, prepare to shed them now. Look, in this place ran Cassius’ (Brown’s) dagger through.
    See what a rent the envious Casca (Shorten) made!
    Through this the well-beloved Brutus (Swan) stabb’d;
    And as he pluck’d his cursed steel away,
    mark how the blood of Caesar (Gillard) follow’d it.
    (Translation: Look at this, the conspirators really gave Julia a complete skewering, didn’t they? No such thing as loyalty amongst thieves)

    As rushing out of doors, to be resolved
    if Brutus (Swan) so unkindly knock’d, or no;
    For Brutus (Swan), as you know, was Caesar’s (Gillard’s) guardian angel.
    Judge, O you gods, how dearly Caesar (Gillard) relied upon him!
    This was the most unkindest cut of all;
    For when the noble Caesar (Gillard) saw him stab,
    ingratitude, more strong than traitors’ arms,
    quite vanquish’d her: then burst her mighty heart.
    Even at the base of Pompey’s ( Hawke’s) statue,
    which all the while ran blood, where “great” Caesar (Gillard) fell.

    (Translation: Julia must have felt intensely betrayed because those who brought her down were those she thought were her friends, and one time partners in crime in the overthrow of Maximus (Rudd). She is in good company in the Labor pantheon, and it is ironic that she bled out at the base of the statue dedicated to a former leader (Hawke) who suffered a similar political fate)

    O, what a fall was there, my countrymen!
    Then I, and you, and all of us fell down,
    whilst bloody treason flourish’d over us.
    O, now you weep; and, I perceive, you feel
    the dint of pity, for these are gracious drops.

    (Translation: “Don’t cry for me, Argentina” should be her theme song, I wouldn’t waste too many tears, though, for her departure)

    Good friends, sweet friends, let me not stir you up
    to such a sudden flood of mutiny.
    They that have done this deed are “honourable”?
    What private grievances they have, alas, I know not,
    that made them do it.
    And they will, no doubt, with reasons answer you all.

    (Translation: The conspirators will pretend that there is a valid reason for their mutiny, but really it all comes down to political expediency and vainly trying to save their careers from ruin. So, don’t get angry, get even….. at the ballot box!)

    I am no orator, but a plain blunt man,
    that love my friends; and that they know full well
    that gave me public leave to speak of them.
    (Translation: I may not have the best public persona, or the slickest delivery, but my party has faith in me and I am an honest man)

    For I have neither wit, nor words, nor worth,
    action, nor utterance, nor the power of speech,
    to stir men’s blood. I only speak right on.
    (Translation: I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I’m a damn sight better than the alternatives!)

    I tell you that which you yourselves do know–
    Showing you Caesar’s (Gillard’s) wounds, and that there were an Antony (Abbott) who would ruffle up your spirits and put a tongue
    in every wound of Caesar (Gillard), that should move
    the stones of Rome to rise and mutiny.
    (Translation: I hope my words have the ring of truth and encourage you all to vote this rabble out of office, and give me the opportunity to correct the most parlous state that our beloved Empire, and our economy, has become as a result of Labor’s mismanagement)

    Narrator: A tumultuous applause greeted Marcus Antonius’ (Abbott’s) speech. Most of the fellow senators (at least the ones still living) and the citizens in attendance were grateful for the opportunity to reclaim their once proud Empire from the clutches of these unscrupulous and unworthy pretenders. In short order, an election was called and Antonius (Abbott) was swept into power with an overwhelming majority.

    Cassius (Brown) saw his dreams of a return to a Stone Age nirvana crushed with the death of Caesar (Gillard), and he was consigned to exile on a far off isle, where he could never again seek to influence the corridors of power with his regressive and nonsensical philosophy.

    Popilius Lena (Milne) went mad at the sight of Marcus Antonius (Abbott) becoming the newly democratically elected Caesar, and was confined to an asylum for the remainder of her life, medicated with a regular infusion of green Kool Aid.

    Brutus (Swan) was banished to the wilderness in the far north of Brittania, where he was often seen, bearded and unkempt, dressed only in bear skin pelts and carrying his trusty abacus. One day, he may learn how to use it!

    Circus Maximus (Rudd) was a shattered and hollow shell of a man. The rejection of the people was too much to bear and he embarked on a mission to the land of the Mandarin Emperor Yuan, only to become the valet and manservant to a lowly government official. He would never again aspire to the giddy heights of power he scaled politically in Utopia Viridus.

    And so, the plebeians and the general populace embarked on the long hard road to economic recovery, knowing that the tough task ahead, though fraught with danger due to a troubled international situation, was at last based on sensible governance and avoiding the pitfalls of overarching ambition and stupidly onerous taxes placing unreasonable burden upon the lives of its ordinary citizens. No more would Utopians be at a disadvantage compared with their trading partners, and sensibly exploiting the natural resources of the Empire for the common good would no longer be viewed with disdain by those privileged to serve as political representatives of this proud nation.

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    Gee Aye

    Waffle… I’d also suggest that it is not just people of the left who are turned off by Bolt and Jones. So long as climate scepticism is seen to have them (add LCM to this list) as the headline acts, anyone else who wants to debate or explain the case against AGW with a believer or agnostic, has a big hurdle to overcome with a large section of society. Please don’t give me the representing the “silent majority” rhetoric.

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    Madjak

    Left, right, what a bore. The whole left wing/ right wing party ideal came from the days when people needed leaders who were better informed than they could be.

    Now, in many topics, the people are finding their leaders to be ignorant rent seekers on many topics who believe their skills as a politician make politics a profession. It’s not a profession, it is skill.

    These days, I am finding that on many issues I agree with views from the left and on others, views from the right. It depends on the issue and whethereither life or interst has allowed me to become unformed on the matter.

    Having said that, I don’t care what the color of their flag is, if they have no mandate, want to tax the ephemeral or if they’re as corrupt as some tin pot despot, they must be exposed, ridiculed, prosecuted and removed with absolutely no mercy.

    And anyone obstructing proceedings should be prosecuted and exposed to exactly the same extent.

    This lot must be removed with zero mercy -even if it is just to send a clear message to others as an example of what happens when you take the stance that the means justifies the ends.

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    Pete H

    http://www.2ue.com.au/blogs/2ue-blog/union-cash-questions-for-the-pm/20110826-1jdj0.html

    The coffin lid seems to be getting nailed down good and proper! :-)

    Union cash questions for the PM

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    memoryvault

    Waffle @ 95

    From the responses it’s pretty easy to identify the problem. Lack of empathy. Failure to understand the alternative point of view denies any opportunity to illuminate false assumptions and to sway option.

    My apologies Waffle, for not being to empathise with the people you admire who have been caught lying, fudging data, character assassinating scientists with differing results, denying them funding and locking them out of the peer-review process.

    I’m sorry that I have trouble finding anything in common with people such as you who have declared I am mentally ill for being able to understand high school science, people who have demanded I be put on trial for “crimes against humanity”, branded and/or tattooed with “denier” and loaded onto “death trains” and sent off to be gassed as a “final solution”.

    I sincerely regret that I can find no common ground with your ilk who have already killed millions with your bans on such things as DDT, your support for biofuels, and ongoing denial of cheap, abundant fossil energy to the people of the Third World.

    Above all it is truly a pity that I cannot buy into the CAGW religious cult, simply because ALL of the current observable data is that things are cooling down – and rapidly.

    Waffle @ 99.

    One of the root causes of the alarmist position is an exasperation of perceived greed within society.

    So, would this be an admission that it was never about the “science” – that it was, is and always will be a POLITICAL endeavour?

    An admission that you post @ 95 is REALLY a call for us to fall into line with YOUR version of “white man’s guilt”?

    Tell me Waffle, exactly HOW does denying the poorest people in the world access to freedom from disease (DDT), food (biofuels), and the opportunity to better themselves (refusal to build fossil fuel power stations) fit in with curing of “perceived greed?

    Do you REALLY believe your actions are helping promote THIS for them:

    Survival stress and hunger are our natural life conditions which promote happy drug production in our brain.

    Are you honestly so twisted you think you are making them HAPPY?

    If so, then you are truly one sick puppy.

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    macca

    G.R.O.G. party will be s successful as your CONVOY OF THE SERIOUSLY DELUDED.and we all know how well that went…..ha ha ha

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    ozymandias

    The sophistication and humour so ostentatiously displayed on this site is truly cringe-worthy. All I can say of some posters here is that their convictions are deeply rooted.

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    fredn

    I would have thought that after your “Conveyor of right wing irrelevance” you would have paused and thought a little. And as for Andrew Bolt, he is good for comedy relief, the trouble is the morally deranged take him seriously.

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    …..is that their convictions are deeply rooted.

    Just like that ‘gigantic leg’, eh, ozymandias.
    Tony.

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    memoryvault

    @ 109 – 110 – 111

    The Three Stooges?

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    cohenite

    I’ll try again to post this. Waffle@102; now I understand you; you subscribe to the Protestant Ethic; reward and pleasure must be earned; but you are preaching to the converted here; the right-wing position is that responsibility must go with privilege and rights; you need to talk to the left who are all rights and no responsibility which only produces a sense of entitlement.

    You need to test run your view [which I partially agree with] over at Deltoid; the Deltoidians, despite their erudition and education are fundamentally left. However I would recommend you fortify yourself by reading Ode To A Grecian Urn before you go.

    Keats eleoquently summed up your position which is pleasure and fulfillment for humans is emphemeral; despite their pretensions the Deltoidians are philistines and if you quote Keats it will confuse them since they regard themselves, at the very least, as Demigods.

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    MaryFJohnston

    Mr Vault

    Weren’t the tree stooges Americans?

    The middle one seems Greek by name.

    Wasn’t there a verse “ozymandias and his lute made trees ……..”??

    But this is totally irrelevant; just like the three stooges above.

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    Twodogs

    Julia’s fabian-ness is exemplified in Labor’s poor execution of everything. It smacks of every policy action as being nothing more than a vehicle to achieve something else.

    I do not accept incompetence. It’s amazing how much you can achieve if you give it your all.

    They don’t care how much is wasted on school halls. Big spending announcement – tick. Jobs for mates – tick. Spend your money on you and claim all of the credit – tick. Income redistribution – tick. Spend twice as much as necessary / build half as much as able – so what? It’s not their money! They got to tick off the stuff that is important to them. The waste is neither here nor there to them, and it’s nothing they can’t explain away with an “independent” review.

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    Madjak

    It lookslikethe blood letting meetings are out again.

    Come on macca, fredn and ozynumbnuts, spill the beans. All the other labor insiders are hard at work exposing the labor partys’ fukishima moment.

    I ask the same question as during the last election – with ALP in power (albiet an impotent power atm), who will be the pm at the next election?

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    Kevin Moore

    “Diplomat with family ties gets $225,000 job”

    The Australian, August 26, 2008.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/diplomat-gets-225000-g-g-job/story-e6frg6nf-11111117301160

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    Lionell Griffith

    Waffle said at 98: Failure to understand the alternative point of view denies any opportunity to illuminate false assumptions and to sway option.

    Sorry no. Your problem is that we understand the “alternative point of view” all too well. We know it to be a fraud based upon whim, wish, and magical thinking. We know it is in direct denial of reality. We know it works to have it’s way by sacrificing that which makes life and thriving possible. We know they will pick the wrong over the right, the evil over the good, and a path to failure over a path to success EVERY TIME. ALL you can do with that kind of “alternative point of view” is get out of its way and allow it to destroy itself as it eventually must.

    Keep in mind that when you compromise between right and wrong, it’s wrong that wins. when you compromise between good and evil, it’s evil that wins. When you compromise between success and failure, failure wins. THAT is what you are asking us to be empathetic with and to accept as a viable alternative? You want us to be wrong, to be evil, and to fail? That won’t happen.

    The reason? We want to live! Death is not an alternative way of life for us. You are welcome to chose the path to death for yourself. Just don’t expect us to go along for the ride and to pay for the trip. It’s your ticket. You bought it. Now PAY for it!

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    CameronH

    Waffle @ 92, I am not too big on unsupported assertions. Would you please provide some examples of Andrew Bolt “Verbally Abusing” one of his guests. I frequently watch his program and, while I do not always agree with his opinion, I have never seen of heard him abuse anybody. He does put people on the spot and ask hard quesations but he has always seemed to be polite to me.

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    Damian Allen

    POLL: Do you support the Gillard Government’s Carbon DIOXIDE (PLANT FOOD) Tax?

    http://www.alexhawke.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=frontpage&Itemid=225

    VOTE NOW !

    THE SANE ANSWER IS “NO” !!

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    Maxine

    Bolt, you are relying on Bolt? LOL!

    You won’t get rid of Gillard. Just a headsup to the astroturfer that runs this site: Thomson will likely be exonerated and then be in a mood for some defamation actions. So might our PM, Julia Gillard.

    In 2013 with all the contentious legislation bedded down and the Libs still battling with their $70Bn black hole The govt will likely be returned.

    The lady is not for turning.

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    Andrew McRae

    Mr Swan said passing the carbon tax would show the world Australia has “got its eye on the main game”.
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/carbon-tax-will-pass-says-swan/story-fn7x8me2-1226123767111

    So Swanny, you’re gonna save the world. What a mindjob.

    Labour wanted to rig their own unelected bipartisan committee (the climate change committee) to formulate the carbon tax because the bipartisan committee we already had (parliament) might not have rubber stamped the Greens’ agenda so smoothly.

    Abbott introduced a bill to ask the people whether they want the carbon tax they didn’t vote for, yet the government won’t have a bar of it.

    Mr Swan, if we have to give up democracy in order to save the planet, we will end up with a planet not worth saving.

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    Maxine

    Damian, that poll is 70% in favor of the ETS ATM.

    Madjack (well chosen name I’d say) it is “Fukushima” BTW. Hmmm “impotent power”? 188 Bills passed since the election, don’t sound so impotent to me. I’d say Abbott is the impotent one for all his bellowing.

    Lionel Griffith, well done! I want to live, my children and grands, great grands etc. That is why I support the ETS that will be introduced week after next! Evil Libs and their evil WorkChoices are death!

    Twodogs (two dogs, half a brain?) why not try reading some reports, the Auditor General’s and Brad Orgill’s. Your statements re the BER are wrong and stupid. Value for money 97% of the time and hundreds of thousands of jobs saved in the GFC.

    Fredn-too true!

    Macca—good one!

    Memory vault—gee man, what are you on? Gin and self pity? Only time govt interfered in AGW discussions was when Howard prevented CSIRO entering the debate.

    PeteH—nope, our Pm gillard will be with us as PM for a good while yet.

    Madjack quoted;

    These days, I am finding that on many issues I agree with views from the left and on others, views from the right. It depends on the issue and whethereither life or interst has allowed me to become unformed on the matter.
    Having said that, I don’t care what the color of their flag is, if they have no mandate,

    Hmmm that “if they have no mandate” kinda indicates you only follow rightwing views. But PM Gillard did talk of implementing a carbon price and that is what she is doing. Howard promised the same n 2007 so no mandate is crap.

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    Memory Vault: I said I empathize with the left’s position, not that I sympathize with it. There’s a difference.

    I sincerely regret that I can find no common ground with your ilk who have already killed millions with your bans on such things as DDT, your support for biofuels, and ongoing denial of cheap, abundant fossil energy to the people of the Third World.

    Did you see what you did there? It seems your dogma ran over my karma.

    So, would this be an admission that it was never about the “science” – that it was, is and always will be a POLITICAL endeavour?

    Yes. For the left it’s all about politics that stems from a personal guilt complex. Which, I believe is a result of a chemical process that is latent in our biology. Something, which is said can be alleviated, but not cured.

    cohenite: I wouldn’t say Protestant Ethic, rather, I know thyself. Do not view your biology as a personal failing. Accept it and work towards fulfilling your potential. We have a great capacity to understand and project into the past, present and future. Those who have achieved wealth and security need to realise its temporality and not be seduced by the embrace of momentary comfort. That is what I refer to as a retirement, when you cease to be human.

    Lionell Griffith: I’m not going to have a discussion with you for as long as you view the world in black and white, right and wrong, good and evil. I can tell you that the left doesn’t share your absolute view of the world. I guessing the term ‘bible basher‘ makes you cringe and you don’t know why.

    CameronH:

    Would you please provide some examples of Andrew Bolt “Verbally Abusing” one of his guests.

    If I must then I will. Not tonight, I’m in between engagements and don’t have time to dig through the verbal and literary diarrhea of Mr Bolt.

    What needs to be understood, just by reading responses here, this blog, just like alarmist blogs, are echo chambers. I’m largely indifferent to people’s political viewpoint here as long as:

    A) they can carry a robust and polite scientific discourse
    B) they don’t make value statements on commenter’s morality

    Yes, it’s Jo’s blog and she can post whatever she wants here and block any response to that. The reason I’m here is because this is one of the few sceptic blogs that are not politically dogmatic and censorious of alternative points of view. It is to her credit that John Brookes and MattB get a run on this forum. It is to their credit that they persist despite rude and obnoxious responses they get from posters.

    If you want to call me a communist for disagreeing with your worldview then, I hope that tinfoil hat is comfortable.

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    pat

    more at gwpf:

    gwpf: from UK Times (behind paywall): Flawed Green Scheme Costs Households £120 In Energy Bills
    Every household in Britain has been overcharged an estimated £120 in utility bills as a result of an environmental initiative that is not working, an investigation by The Times has found.
    Energy companies such as Scottish Power, EDF Energy and Centrica, the owner of British Gas, have pocketed about £9 billion in free windfall profits by manipulating a carbon trading scheme. The extra costs have come when energy prices are at a record high, but, according to the climate change group Sandbag, the total carbon emissions saved by the scheme are roughly equivalent to every person in Europe replacing two old incandescent lightbulbs with energy-efficient alternatives, costing about £3 each…
    http://www.thegwpf.org/uk-news/3713-flawed-green-scheme-costs-households-p120.html

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    Aww!
    Not fair.
    The Maxine and Waffle ‘tag team’ seem to be ‘broad brushing’ everybody.
    I thought at least you’d have a dig at me about the obscure ozymandias ‘dig’, but I guess that’s over your heads.
    Oh, and Maxine, be careful what you wish for.
    Tony.

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    Madjak

    Maxine,

    Are you on crack? or don’t you have time to see what people other than the labor stooges have to say in the matter?

    Well you’re obviously keen to protect corruption in government. Keep at it, it’s spin prone people like you who are making this government become a 12 month term joke.

    I kinda hope you’re one if the anointed ones who will be exposed as perverting the course if justice.

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    Actually Tony, I thought this was a sublime piece of writing:

    What we need to do is to do away with everyone who argues against the ‘establishment’ position.

    So, I assumed your post was I jest. I’m curious as to why I’m suddenly viewed as an alarmist or leftist. I’ve been posting on this blog for two years. I assume all those who aren’t n00bs understand my position. But, like I said, this forum is very much an echo chamber and if you disagree with the herd you need to be prepared to defend you position against the wildest of emotionalisations.

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    Madjak

    If anyone thinks this government has a mandate for taxing an element of the periodic table, they are either myopic, stupid or just a blatant liar.

    But that’s cool there maxine. You keep on barracking for a pm protecting a former union head who apears to have ripped off its members by spending their fees without a mandate. Keep at it, your spin is working wonders… for the liberals, that is

    Gee his last defamation case was such a resounding vindication, wasn’t it?

    btw – do you know the difference between a tea bag and a labor government?
    - a tea bag stays in longer…

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    Ah Waffle,
    it was only in jest, and I seriously wondered if it wasn’t too esoteric and ‘at altitude’.
    It’s funny about ‘position’, and I’ve had the same thing happen to me on occasion in my three and a half years I’ve been ‘at it’.
    ‘Some’ Americans have no concept about what I’m attempting to say when I warn of the ‘secondary’ consequences of this mindless adherence to what they ‘think’ Climate Change’ will end up achieving, if it succeeds.
    You get misinterpreted and then spend ages trying to explain that you’re really coming from the same general direction that they are coming from.
    It’s all good, and at times, it’s also good fun.
    I wish I had been a good fisherman sometimes, because if the fish ‘bit’ like some people, I’d never have had to visit the butchers.
    Someone mentioned The Three Stooges above, and to quote Curly.
    Nyuk nyuk nyuk!
    Tony.

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    Gee Aye

    Waffle @127

    A) they can carry a robust and polite scientific discourse

    this is rule number one for posting on this site. Who would have thought.

    Echo chamber is very apt and it is obvious that the appeal to reclaiming scepticism in a recent previous thread has just affirmed to the posters here that what they think is scepticism is so. Any outsider would see little evidence that they are sceptical.

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    Maxine

    Waffle man you waffle on don’t you? try doing more reading less waffling, leave the psycho/sociological analyses to those who have qualifications. And AGW is ALL about the science. Swan has, through persistence in the MPCC included valuable tax reform in the ETS package agreed on. I never watch Bolt either. The man is a fraud, his stated positions are just to get traffic-he even agrees AGW is happening! You also look like one of the herd from what I see here! sorry!

    Tony from Oz This is a politics blog, an astroturfer’s attempt to provide those she deluded with continual proof AGW doesn’t exist, the convoy was a success, Gillard won’t last etc, do stay in tune with the rest of the band. As to what I wish for, continual action against AGW, decent government. At the moment I have both.

    Madjack I think you will soon see the corruption (by Mr Thomson I presume?) is non-existent.
    Nope, not a high flyer in the Labor govt or movement, just someone who does some reading and by that I don’t mean the execrable Bolt or Akerman blogs which are just for idiots.

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    CameronH

    Waffle @ 127, You were so strong with your condemnation of Anmdrew Bolt and his verbal abuse that I thought you would have many examples at your fingertips. I eagerly await your examples.

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    Madjak

    Maxine,

    You sound a lot like saddams foreign minister (was it aziz?)at the fall of baghdad.

    I’m sure the minister of horizontal services issue is just one big trap. shooore…

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    Lionell Griffith

    Waffle @ 127 said: Lionell Griffith: I’m not going to have a discussion with you for as long as you view the world in black and white, right and wrong, good and evil. I can tell you that the left doesn’t share your absolute view of the world.

    Life and death is absolute. That to live you must act in accordance with your nature and and the nature of reality or you will die is an absolute. That you must choose to focus, to think, to know, and to act upon that knowledge correctly to live is an absolute. These things ARE black and white. Oh for a time, as with the left, you can hide the fact they are absolutes by stealing already produced wealth and sacrificing the wealth producers. However, when there is no more produced wealth to steal and no more willing sacrificial victims, your scam is over. THAT is absolutely absolute.

    However, it is true that as long as I see reality as real and unavoidable and you see it as simply a matter of wishing it away, we cannot have a conversation. That’s OK by me. I can make more progress by talking to a pile of sand than by talking with you. Once you accept that reality is in fact real and that wishing won’t make it go away, then and only then will we have something to discuss.

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    cohenite

    Maxine says: “Madjack I think you will soon see the corruption (by Mr Thomson I presume?) is non-existent.”

    Care to have a little wager Maxine?

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    Damian Allen

    Maxine == STUPID IGNORANT MORONIC JUVENILE TRAITOR

    Girlie you better go and ask your mummy what those words mean…..

    NOW GET BACK TO THE ABC (AUSTRALIANS BEING CENSORED) !

    cretin!

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    MaryFJohnston

    What are they doing here?

    Are there 5 stooges now?

    Lost count.

    No wonder I can’t understand Catastrophic Man Made Global Warming.

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    Damian Allen

    Results from an online poll conducted by ninemsn:-

    http://news.ninemsn.com.au/previousvote/

    Do you support the carbon tax?
    NO: 131692 (83%)
    yes: 27113 (17%)

    global warming is the biggest FRAUD in the history of civilization!!

    Australians will not tolerate being taxed back to the stone age based on a FRAUD!!

    If this despot federal government persists with this BS there will be massive civil unrest all around Australia !!!!!!!

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    Damian Allen

    Poll: Do you want your federal M.P. to vote in favour of a carbon (DIOXIDE) tax ?

    Results:-

    yes 1.3% 274
    NO 98.7% 21,091

    http://www.2gb.com/index.php?option=com_homepage&id=1&Itemid=44

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    Damian Allen

    More interesting poll results from ninemsn …..

    Should an election be called before a carbon tax is introduced?
    YES: 117148 (81%) no: 27493 (19%)

    Do you agree with the truckies’ call for an early election?

    YES: 87758 (80%) no: 21654 (20%)

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    MaryFJohnston

    D.A.

    These are just kids.

    Time will bring its own retribution.

    They will see their current “absolute beliefs” turned upside down by the backlash which is coming against the Algorithm which has penetrated Western society .

    The best use of your energy at the moment is to do something childish and irrelevant in return for the crap that Labor is subjecting us to.

    Do what I did. I cut up the Carbin Tacks Propaganda sheets that my wife and I got from Juliaaar into 3 parts, fitted them neatly into standard envelopes and posted them off to my local MP and Corbett. Theoretically the Aussie post is supposed to deliver them but I suspect they get tanked.

    Something positive like that is better value than playing with the 5 stooges.

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    Damian Allen

    gillard “government” considers new tactics to aid passage of carbon legislation: report !!!!

    The federal government is considering gagging debate in the Senate to help get its carbon price legislation through Parliament by the end of the year, according to a report in the Financial Review.

    MORE:-

    http://www.climatespectator.com.au/news/govt-considers-new-tactics-aid-passage-carbon-legislation-report?utm_source=Climate%2BSpectator%2Bdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Climate%2BSpectator%2Bdaily&utm_source=Climate+Spectator&utm_campaign=1f290dd600-CSPEC_DAILY&utm_medium=email

    CLEARLY THIS JOOLIAR “GOVERNMENT” HAS NO RESPECT FOR AUSTRALIANS, DEMOCRACY OR OUR COUNTRY !!

    ELECTION NOW !!!

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    Madjak

    I wish combets propoganda was more absorbent…. At least then I would’ve got some value for my tax dollars

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    MaryFJohnston

    The main reason I like Andrew Bolt so very much is that the little lefties can’t stand him.

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    MaryFJohnston

    Madjak

    I did try but it’s too smooth.

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    Madjak

    Mary – hope you sent it back as being defective goods then.

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    Mark

    Damian Allen:

    You need a new keyboard.

    Either that or you have yet to realise that overuse of upper case eventually defeats the purpose and just becomes tiresome for your intended audience.
    .

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    Wayne, s. Job

    Thank you Jo, I met the Thompson’s on my foray to Canberra on a convoy, they really are totally nice sincere people. If we had Janet as prime minister we would be doing OK.

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    Adam Smith

    More interesting poll results from ninemsn …..

    Should an election be called before a carbon tax is introduced?
    YES: 117148 (81%) no: 27493 (19%)

    Do you agree with the truckies’ call for an early election?

    YES: 87758 (80%) no: 21654 (20%)

    This poll result isn’t interesting at all. Self selecting web polls that are not weighted to reflect the make-up of the Australian populace HAVE NO SCIENTIFIC VALUE WHATSOEVER.

    I find it astonishing that this forum is supposedly based on the proposition that people should cite actual evidence to support their positions on issues, but then people repeatedly link to and reference web polls as if they actually give an accurate indication of the support for various policies!

    Setting that to one side, the other issue here is that MANY policies government’s have implemented over the past few decades weren’t popular when they were enacted. Floating the dollar, privatising things like Qantas and the Commonwealth Bank, deregulating the banking sector, and reducing tariffs were all very unpopular policies, but they have all created big benefits in the long term.

    It is astonishing to me that supposedly the only measure of policies is whether or not most people agree with it. It seems the idea of the longer term national interest has gone out of the window, and now all we expect governments to do is whatever most people reckon at the time.

    If that is the way Government’s in the past decided on policy, Australia would have a basket-case economy with low growth, high inflation, high interest rates, and high unemployment, which is what we had before the Hawke and Keating governments deregulated parts of the economy.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 153

    Floating the dollar, privatising things like Qantas and the Commonwealth Bank, deregulating the banking sector, and reducing tariffs were all very unpopular policies, but they have all created big benefits in the long term.

    And your “proof” that all these were all “good” for Australia is . . . .

    Floating the dollar simply made us yet another plaything of the international banksters. China has done very well without such “benefit”.

    Qantas was ALWAYS a “private company”. All that was changed was the rules to allow overseas interests to buy into it it. As a result Qantas has gone from one of the most commercially successful airlines in the world, to a company in danger of going under.

    And the benefits to Australians are …

    The constitution allowed for the creation of the Commonwealth Bank to create the credit for the nation debt free. Now we “pay” the international banking cartel for the privilege of creating our own nation’s credit in defiance of the constitution. AND we pay interest on the debt.

    And the benefits to Australians are . .. .

    Your point Adam Smith . . . . ?

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    Adam Smith seems genuinely afraid that an election would stop these this nonsense.

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    John Brookes

    Well said Adam Smith. Government by poplar opinion is a silly idea. Our elected representatives have a responsibility to do what is in the best interests of the country, not what you or I think is a good idea.

    I support a football team, and it has a coach. I have opinions on who he should select, and where they should play, and how they should play. I certainly hope that he never takes my opinions into account! As long as he and I have the same goal, getting the Dockers to win their next match, that’s good enough for me – at least for a couple of seasons. After that if he’s not getting the job done, time for someone new. By convention, the Oz government gets 4 years.

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    Adam Smith

    [And your “proof” that all these were all “good” for Australia is . . . . ]
    The fact Australia hasn’t had a recession for 20 years.
    The fact Australia’s economy has quadrupled in size in the last 30 years.
    The fact the average airline ticket is 40% cheaper now than when the Government owned airlines
    The fact interest rates have been on average half what they were over the last 20 years than what they were in the 1970s and 1980s.
    The fact Australia’s real wages are 30% higher now than what they were int eh 1980s.
    The fact Australia now exports more in a month than it did in an entire year in the mid 1980s.

    Floating the dollar simply made us yet another plaything of the international banksters. China has done very well without such “benefit”.

    What the crap are you going on about? When we had a fixed currency, currency speculators would bet AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT, which had to periodically adjust the exchange rate. Now currency speculators have to speculate against each other.

    Qantas was ALWAYS a “private company”. All that was changed was the rules to allow overseas interests to buy into it it. As a result Qantas has gone from one of the most commercially successful airlines in the world, to a company in danger of going under.

    This is sheer nonsense! When Qantas was government owned, the average air fair was far higher than it was now. There was no competition in the sector, average middle class families could only afford a plane flight or two a year because tickets were so dam expensive. I have no idea what you mean by Qantas at risk of going under, they made half a billion profit last financial year!

    The constitution allowed for the creation of the Commonwealth Bank to create the credit for the nation debt free. Now we “pay” the international banking cartel for the privilege of creating our own nation’s credit in defiance of the constitution. AND we pay interest on the debt.

    What the crap are you going on about now? Most Australians bank with one of the big four, which are Australian owned.

    The problem with this forum is that you try to debate the issues, but all you get in response is nonsense and conspiracy theories.

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    Adam Smith

    Adam Smith seems genuinely afraid that an election would stop these this nonsense.

    I’ve got a nice bottle of red set aside for when the Clean Energy bills pass parliament.

    Once those bills a through, the legislation will NEVER be repealed, because doing so would require paying big polluting companies billions of dollars (about $27 billion over the first three years alone).

    You can have all the elections you like after those bills pass.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 157

    This is sheer nonsense! When Qantas was government owned, the average air fair was far higher than it was now.

    And exactly WHEN was Qantas “government owned”, Adam Smith?

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 157

    The fact Australia hasn’t had a recession for 20 years.

    You must be living in a different Australia than me.

    Or you actually believe the figures put out by the ABS.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 157

    The fact interest rates have been on average half what they were over the last 20 years than what they were in the 1970s and 1980s.

    Tell that to all the people who lost their homes when housing interest rates hit 18% in the 90′s under Keating’s “recession we had to have”.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 157

    The fact Australia’s real wages are 30% higher now than what they were in the 1980s.

    According to whom?

    Oh I know, the government Bureau of Statistics (ABS). The SAME people who claim that the “average” Australian is now earning about $1300.00 a week ($69,000.00 a year) when Taxation Department records show average TAXABLE income at $48,000.00 a year.

    Care to explain the discrepancy Adam Smith?

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 157

    What the crap are you going on about now? Most Australians bank with one of the big four, which are Australian owned.

    And what on earth has this got to do with the fact that the Australian Constitution allowed for the creation of the Commonwealth Bank specifically to create the nation’s credit at no interest?

    Yet another case of slither, slither, slither.

    You never did get around to explaining how you dealt with the carpet burns on your nipples Adam Smith.

    Slither, slither, slither.

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    TonyfromOz @ 133:

    ‘Some’ Americans have no concept about what I’m attempting to say when I warn of the ‘secondary’ consequences of this mindless adherence to what they ‘think’ Climate Change’ will end up achieving, if it succeeds.

    But, but, climate change will solve everything. There will be no war, hunger or disease. Once everyone believes in climate change, the world will be a better place. Utopia is just around the corner. Now tap your heels thrice and repeat after me… /sarc

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    memoryvault

    John Brookes @ 156

    Well said Adam Smith. Government by poplar opinion is a silly idea. Our elected representatives have a responsibility to do what is in the best interests of the country, not what you or I think is a good idea.

    Thank you John Brookes for so succinctly summing up the great divide between you and me.

    In case you weren’t aware, John Brookes, we are supposed to be a REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.

    That is, the people elected are elected to represented the WILL of the majority, within the bounds of the constitution.

    What you are describing is the selection of a group of TRIBAL ELDERS, who then decide “what’s best for us” regardless of what we want or believe in.

    Why are people like you so afraid of letting the majority of us deciding what we want, John Brookes”

    Yes, we will make mistakes.

    But we will have nobody but ourselves to blame.

    Do you REALLY believe that the opportunists in Parliament today know more more about what is best for YOU, than YOU do yourself?

    Are you THAT shit-scared of making decisions for yourself?

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    memoryvault

    Waffle @ 164

    But, but, climate change will solve everything. There will be no war, hunger or disease. Once everyone believes in climate change, the world will be a better place. Utopia is just around the corner. Now tap your heels thrice and repeat after me…

    Yes, we are all familiar with the teachings of the Church of CAGW according to the prophet Saint Albert of the Goracle.

    Your point is . . . .

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    Mark D.

    MV @ 165 to John Brookes:

    Do you REALLY believe that the opportunists in Parliament today know more more about what is best for YOU, than YOU do yourself?

    I really believe that ANYONE knows more than JB about what is best for him…..

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    John Brookes

    memoryvault, I love the theory, but a representative democracy is what we’ve got. And any smart person does not want their representative to truly represent the opinions of the ignorant, the bigoted and the selfish. Public opinion is worth nothing if it is not well informed. And most of it isn’t.

    Take sentencing laws. When asked about the adequacy of sentencing, most Australians say that sentences should be longer, that judges are too soft. However, when Australians who have been on a jury are asked about the sentence handed out in the trial they were part of, they think that the sentence was pretty close to what it should have been.

    So having your representative reflect public opinion on this issue would be a mistake.

    I expect my representative to inform himself or herself better than the general public, and hence make different calls than the man or woman in the street.

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    Adam Smith

    And exactly WHEN was Qantas “government owned”, Adam Smith?

    When it was owned by the Government.

    You may like to have a look at this act of the federal parliament:
    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/qsa1992120/

    Hint: It’s title is the “Qantas Sale Act”.

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    Adam Smith

    In case you weren’t aware, John Brookes, we are supposed to be a REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.

    That is, the people elected are elected to represented the WILL of the majority, within the bounds of the constitution.

    WRONG! This is a howler that would cause a first year politics student to fail an essay.

    Democracy DOES NOT simply mean “the will of the majority”. That is called “majoritarianism”.

    Democracy means the authority of the popular will at elections, but also RESPECT FOR THE RIGHTS OF THE MINORITY, i.e. the people that didn’t vote for the incumbent government.

    Now, Australia had an election a year ago, and the Parliament supported Labor to form a minority government.

    So you should respect the will of the parliament, and the will of the voters that elected that parliament (which is indirectly every person who voted).

    It seems to be YOU that doesn’t want to respect the will of the majority, because you seem to have this crazy idea that Gillard shouldn’t be the PM.

    Well, such it up. Wait a couple of years, then you can vote for whoever you like.

    PS: Good luck finding a credible candidate that thinks the government should own Qantas.

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    memoryvault @ 166:

    Yes, we are all familiar with the teachings of the Church of CAGW according to the prophet Saint Albert of the Goracle.

    Your point is . . . .

    My point is, if you wish to be saved from the NWO global government, carbon tax regime, send all of your money to me now. I will single handedly remove this threat from your existence, for a nominal fee(all your money). Don’t delay, the carbon tax is immanent.

    If you get in touch within the next 24hrs, for a limited time, I will send you, at no further cost, a free set of steak knives. Don’t delay, send all your money now. Be free of the carbon tax today and live the life you always wanted to live.

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    Roy Hogue

    Lionell @120,

    The whole problem is that life has been a lot too easy for far too long and the consequences of bad decision making could be put off for too long. They are now used to their fantasy and without a doubt think it is reality, hence cannot give it up. But the problem is self correcting.

    Most of them will never understand what I mean and will never know what hit them; just as in England right now, they don’t know what hit them.

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    MaryFJohnston

    MoThErHoOd statement”

    “”"Setting that to one side, the other issue here is that MANY policies government’s have implemented over the past few decades weren’t popular when they were enacted. Floating the dollar, privatising things like Qantas and the Commonwealth Bank, deregulating the banking sector, and reducing tariffs were all very unpopular policies, but they have all created big benefits in the long term.”"”

    The linking statement:

    “”So now we have a proposed Carbin Tackx which is also the subject of voter rejection.”"

    Then the logic.

    “So therefore the Carnin Tks is also good for Australia. ”

    QED or something.

    Then:

    “and therefore people who reject he carbin tax are like those who wanted to reject the good schemes above!!!”"

    WRONG.

    Different groups of people.

    The reason we are not discussuing science on this thread is because it is all IN.

    Man made CO2 cannot in any way have any significant effect on atmospheric temperature.

    Nature did it.

    This is now a political issue which we will continue to discuss with politicians.

    btw The polls show NOBODY wants a Carbin Taks or an ETS tax or any more CO2 BS.

    We want good honest informed Government for Tax Payers.

    No vote for students or non taxpayers.

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    MaryFJohnston

    memoryvault:

    I would defer to your comments in 154.

    @173 above I was speaking in relative terms; that those actions by earlier govts were not as damaging as the proposed Carbin Taks.

    Good points.

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    MaryFJohnston

    MV

    He is, as I surmised earlier, training to be a lawyer.

    Don’t expect any science.

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    MaryFJohnston

    Roy at 172

    You have neatly outlined the entire problem.

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    MaryFJohnston

    Could be a philosophy student with a lawyer friend.

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    Damian Allen

    POLL: In its reporting of politics, the Australian media tend to be……..

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/thedrum/polls/

    Clearly the obvious answer is to the LEFT.

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    MaryFJohnston

    DA 178

    Yes.

    Looking at the questionnaires the answer options only lead to answers being of one kind;; Left Leaning.

    Skewed questionnaires are a wonderful political tool.

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    Tel

    My point is, if you wish to be saved from the NWO global government, carbon tax regime, send all of your money to me now.

    Are the Koch Brothers paying you to say this stuff?

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    Adam Smith

    The reason we are not discussuing science on this thread is because it is all IN.

    POLL: In its reporting of politics, the Australian media tend to be……..

    People on this site can not continue to say they are interested in science and rational discussion while they continue to use webpolls as evidence for public opinion.

    Unweighted and unrepresentative self selecting polls can not be used to judge public opinion.

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    Lionell Griffith

    Roy Hogue @ 172,

    I agree.

    I have long thought that the only way to get through to the ubiquitous teenage mentality (not limited to those of teenage years) is to have them meet reality at full speed, face first, spread eagle. Then if they survive the experience, they just might be willing to understand that they not only don’t know every thing, they will understand that they hardly know anything at all.

    Unfortunately, these teenagers of the left have stolen our credit cards, the keys to our cars, and have left the front door unlocked so their “friends” can steal what they have not yet stolen. They will eventually meet justice because reality will deliver it in spades redoubled eventually. As before, our challenge is not to be caught in the resultant collision.

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    cohenite

    Adam, how do you judge public opinion?

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    Adam Smith

    [They will eventually meet justice because reality will deliver it in spades redoubled eventually. As before, our challenge is not to be caught in the resultant collision.]
    Currently it is delivering relatively (i.e. compared to the US and UK) low unemployment, decent economic growth, historically low interest rates, the lowest debt in the OECD, another mining boom, the biggest terms of trade the country has ever had, with government spending as a proportion of GDP currently lower than it was for most of the Howard years.

    I say we should leave the kids in charge if that’s the results they can deliver.

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    Adam Smith

    Adam, how do you judge public opinion?

    One way is using PROPERLY weighted polls that use randomised sampling based on demographic factors. Newspoll, Nielsen, Galaxy et al do these sorts of polls every week.

    They are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to webpolls that aren’t randomised and are self-selecting, and therefore can only be accurate by luck rather than by design.

    Another way we judge public opinion is to have elections every few years.

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    Adam Smith

    The Australian caught out spreading lies (again):

    THE AUSTRALIAN published today an opinion piece by Glenn Milne which includes assertions about the conduct of the Prime Minister.

    The Australian acknowledges these assertions are untrue. The Australian also acknowledges no attempt was made by anyone employed by, or associated with, The Australian to contact the Prime Minister in relation to this matter.

    The Australian unreservedly apologises to the Prime Minister and to its readers for the publication of these claims

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/correction/story-fn6nj4ny-1226124242214

    They should also apologise for failing to end a sentence with a full stop. You’d think a newspaper company would know better?

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    MaryFJohnston

    Lionell

    The teenager above is a classic example of one who is overcome by political propaganda and can’t see the ground he is walking on for all the BS.

    He cant tell the difference between a failed economy and a failed economy plus a mining boom.

    Like all lefties he gives credit for our current relatively good position to the Labor Left and paradoxically to the Mining Boom which is “creating Global Warming”. Aren’t they Against Mining??

    Beats me.

    Mining boom courtesy of China.

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    MaryFJohnston

    “”The Australian caught out spreading lies (again):”"

    Sometimes lies are necessary

    as has been so readily demonstrated by

    the Catastrophic Global Warming Industry.

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    Adam Smith at comment 185,
    Perhaps another way might be for the result to hinge on the response to the first question, which could be, say:
    Do you currently support Labor.
    If the answer is yes, then the questioner proceeds with the Poll.
    If the answer is no, the questioner just hangs up.
    Then they’d get the desired result.
    Tony.

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    Mark D.

    Adam Smith:

    One way is using PROPERLY weighted polls that use randomised sampling based on demographic factors. Newspoll, Nielsen, Galaxy et al do these sorts of polls every week.

    So have any of them polled the carbon tax question?

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    Maxine

    The end result of AGW/climate change is a dead planet. Dunno what MV was blovviating about that it will solve everything.

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    Tristan

    So if we Get Rid Of Gillard, presumably we’re left with Abbott.

    This is what Abbott promises(http://www.liberal.org.au/Issues/Environment.aspx):

    Action on Climate Change including the creation of a $2.55 billion (over the first four years)
    Emissions Reduction Fund, additional funding for one million solar homes by 2020, clean
    energy hubs, solar towns and solar schools, geothermal projects, studies into algal synthesis
    and the planting of 20 million trees.

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    An article sent to me recently made these points:

    Julia says her carbon [dioxide] pollution tax will have the equivalent effect of taking 45.000 cars off the road.

    China in 2008 put 8.000.000 new cars on the road. In 2009 it was 11.000.000. In 2010 it was 18.000.000.

    In the next two or three years China will have about 45.000.000 cars on the road.

    Many areas in China do not have electricity and burn coal for cooking and heating. This will not stop soon as the population is increasing in rural areas. If the cost of Australia’s coal gets too high it seems highly likely that the largest undeveloped coal field in the world in Mongolia just over the border from China will be developed. It is only a 400 kilometre train line into China.

    They talk of the huge wind farms, and yes they are there in Mongolia as a result of private enterprise,but the cost of the electricity generated is too high,so they are not even connected to the State Grid.

    One of the sensible things China is doing is building nuclear generators at the proposed rate of 12 over the next 15 years. Australia should be doing the same if it is really serious about reducing pollution.

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    Tristan

    Kevin, I’m afraid the article may have misinformed you. It’s 45 million, not thousand.

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/environment-benefits-equal-to-45m-less-cars/story-fn6bfkm6-1226091934925

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    Truthseeker

    Adam Smith, how about elected representatives lying about what they stand for?

    “There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead …” – Julia Gillard

    How is this behaviour in any way justifiable under a democratic system? Julia stated clearly her position on the topic and then completely reversed her position. This is pure dishonesty and shows no moral integrity on this issue. She has no mandate to act in the way she has. This stikes at the very essence of what democracy is about and why this government should be brought to account.

    Your arguments are spurious to the central issue here. It is not about opinion polls or popularity. It is about the basic integrity of those that stand for elected office.

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    Tristan

    Hi Truth, as I’m sure you’ve noticed, there’ve been lots of about-faces from the Australian political leadership, whether it be regarding the GST, work choices, core and non-core promises, the adoption of the Garnaut report as a guide to Australian climate policy or most recently, the carbon tax. While sometimes it’s a result of dishonest campaigning, other times it can be due to external pressures, party politicking or simply being in a minority government.

    REPLY: Minority government is no excuse for lies, deceit or back-flipping. If she couldn’t make an honest government with the independents, she shouldn’t have formed a government.

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    Tristan

    Well, I’d contend that any party that formed a minority government would have to, by definition, govern differently than they would have were they elected by majority. What Gillard had to give up or introduce as a result of her dealings with the independents certainly isn’t known to me. Regarding the carbon tax, I don’t know why Gillard said there wouldn’t be one and I don’t know why, after saying that, she decided to implement it. Of course, the partisans on both sides have plenty of answers to that question :)

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    Madjak

    Tristan,

    Joolya told the governor general that she could govern the country.

    She most obviously cannot. Even her lies are pathetic.

    end of.

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    Madjak

    btw, tristan,

    Why are you against planting 20 million trees? Are you being funded by B.P or something?

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    Tristan

    Madjak, I guess that depends on your definition of govern.

    I’m not against planting 20 million trees, I was merely pointing out that both parties have committed to spending a lot of money to reduce/sequester CO2. They both have the same negative five percent target as well. Whichever way a voter may swing, they’re voting for a party that accepts the concept of AGW.

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    Madjak

    Tristan,

    Yep, but only one of them is pushing towards a beurocratically governed tax on an element from the periodic table in a move towards giving merchant bankers the next big bubble. Boy goldman sacs is gonna love trading an invisible trace gas.

    The liberal plan will help with all sorts of real pollutants – not just plant food.

    All this guff about taxing pollution is utter BS. It s an attempt at a command economy which will do nothing fir the environment.

    Even if you believe in AGW, you’ve gotta admit that having things being run by the same group who gave us CDOs and the GFC.

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    Tristan

    Madjak,

    I find it strange that the Carbon Tax is being promoted as a stop-gap measure while we figure out how to implement a vastly more complex ETS. If the goal is reducing emissions, and if the Carbon Tax does it effectively why would you switch to the difficult to implement and regulate ETS? If the tax succeeds, I suspect it’ll stay.

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    Madjak

    Tristan,

    That is their plan. They have been very public about the carbon tax supposedly easing the country into an ets by 2015. That is the so called carbon tax’s purpose.

    They saw the backlash against the ets with rudd, they’re trying to make it more palatable.

    I do agree with you, once it gets in no politician will ever get rid of it. It’ll be to the federal govt what the pokies are to local councils.

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    Madjak

    this has everything to do with revenue and politics. It has nothing to do with the environment.

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    Adam Smith

    Like all lefties he gives credit for our current relatively good position to the Labor Left

    WRONG ASSUMPTION! I give the credit to the Labor Right that modernised the Australian economy after the Fraser government did exactly nothing for 8 years.

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    Adam Smith

    Adam Smith at comment 185,
    Perhaps another way might be for the result to hinge on the response to the first question, which could be, say:
    Do you currently support Labor.

    No, this would be a stupid way to conduct an opinion poll, because it implies asking the respondent to accept or reject an answer already given to them. A proper poll would not pollute the data in this way, it would simply ASK the person who they would vote for if an election was held that weekend.

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    Adam Smith

    Adam Smith, how about elected representatives lying about what they stand for?

    It depends on what it is. Misleading parliament is a serious issue, but let me give you an example. After the 1996 election, John Howard said that some of his election promises were “core” and others were “non-core”. This is being extremely slippery with the truth, but I don’t think it precludes someone from being PM.

    When circumstances changes, Government policies should change too. If the Government just adopts the same policies irrespective of the circumstances, then it suggests they don’t know what they are doing, and will probably end up doing more harm than good.

    “There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead …” – Julia Gillard

    How is this behaviour in any way justifiable under a democratic system?

    Because we are in a REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY, where we elect people to make decisions for us. We then get an opportunity every few years to vote them back in or vote them out.

    Julia stated clearly her position on the topic and then completely reversed her position.

    Not true. She said she would price carbon pollution in the next parliament, and that’s what she is doing.

    This is pure dishonesty and shows no moral integrity on this issue. She has no mandate to act in the way she has.

    Yes she does. She has the mandate from 75 other MPs that support her being PM.

    This stikes at the very essence of what democracy is about and why this government should be brought to account.

    Not at all. John Howard had absolutely no mandate to introduce WorkChoices, but that didn’t mean he couldn’t do it. Of course voters kicked him out at the first opportunity after he pushed that policy through parliament in just 1 month.

    Your arguments are spurious to the central issue here. It is not about opinion polls or popularity. It is about the basic integrity of those that stand for elected office.

    I’m sorry, are you now referring to Tony Abbott who promised during the 2004 election campaign that the Medicare Safety Net thresholds would not be changed, only to have them changed 2 months after the election?

    When circumstances change policies change.

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    Adam Smith

    Well, I’d contend that any party that formed a minority government would have to, by definition, govern differently than they would have were they elected by majority.

    Completely agree.

    Is it so bad that the current Hose of Representatives has to work based on compromises?

    Isn’t that MORE democratic than the usual scenario where the Government can shove anything it likes through the House, and only think of compromising in the Senate?

    But no, apparently some here think that majority government is more democratic!

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    Adam Smith

    Tristan,

    Joolya told the governor general that she could govern the country.

    She most obviously cannot. Even her lies are pathetic.

    end of.

    This shows an astonishing lack of understanding of our democratic system.

    All the Governor General needs is evidence that the PM has confidence on the floor of the House. Gillard was about TO NEGOTIATE TO GET THE CONFIDENCE OF THE HOUSE, which is something Tony Abbott was completely incapable of doing (even though he offered Andrew Wilkie $1 billion for Tasmanian health when he only asked for $500 million!).

    It is NONE of the Governor General’s business what policies the Government adopts, they are POLITICAL DECISIONS, that the Governor General has no right to comment on let alone use to determine her executive actions.

    The liberal plan will help with all sorts of real pollutants – not just plant food.

    It has been estimated that the Coalition’s direct action policy will cost at least $32 billion from 2014 to 2020, and as much as $111 billion:
    http://www.apo.org.au/research/real-cost-direct-action-analysis-coalitions-direct-action-plan

    Which taxes will they raise to pay for that?

    this has everything to do with revenue and politics. It has nothing to do with the environment.

    So why is the Coalition proposing to spend up to $111 billion to plant trees and shut down brown coal power stations?

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    Joe V.

    What’s stopping an Indepenfent from crossing the floor ?
    While the ALP is headed for certain defeat & the Greens for anihilation, don’t they know that being seen as the cause of an early election is their only salvation.

    Why are they more scared of Julia than their electorates?

    They should be falling over themselves to be the first.

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    Adam Smith

    What’s stopping an Indepenfent from crossing the floor ?

    Independents can’t ‘cross the floor’ because they have no party position to defect from.

    While the ALP is headed for certain defeat & the Greens for anihilation, don’t they know that being seen as the cause of an early election is their only salvation.

    It is foolish predicting election results 2 years in advance of the poll.

    Why are they more scared of Julia than their electorates?

    They (I assume you are referring to Oakeshott, Windsor and Wilkie) support Gillard being PM.

    They should be falling over themselves to be the first.

    Why? Let’s say you are right and the Coalition is going to win the election. Liberal governments win, rural independents tend to lose, because voters that supported the independents are likely to vote Liberal or National.

    So it is in the independents’ interests to keep the current parliament going as long as possible if the Coalition’s position in the polls remains strong.

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    Mark D.

    Maxine: @ 192
    August 29th, 2011 at 2:17 pm
    The end result of AGW/climate change is a dead planet.

    Oh boy another crying end of the world……repent… REPENT….. REPENT ….Before it’s too late!!!!!!!

    WAIL, WAIL, GNASH TEETH, WAIL

    Pass the offering plate Co2 tax please……

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    Madjak

    adam@210,

    what a pathetic attempt at deflection on you part.

    I will repeat my statement.

    Joolya told the governor general she could govern the country. She most obviously cannot.

    Shes even supporting the minister of horozontal services to stay in power ffs.

    And yes, the liberals are proposing their plan to “combat climate change” because, guess what adam…. they are a political party!

    And guess what? Their plan is not a move towards getting merchant bankers to trade a trace gas. You know merchant bankers – they’re the ones who gave us the GFC.

    Furthermore the liberal plan will combat many forms of pollution -instead of targeting plant food.

    For anyone to describe jooliars carbon tax plan as putting a price on pollution is a complete and utter lie.

    sorry for the groundbreaking revelation their adam.

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    Joe V.

    Ah , Now I get it. These Independents hate the Liberal National Party, over the will of their own electorates.
    Thanks to Paul Sheehan, on 2GB this morning, for that insight.

    It really seems quite hopeless for Aus. then, with such public spirited self-servants .

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    Adam Smith

    Joolya told the governor general she could govern the country. She most obviously cannot.

    That’s not what she told the Governor General at all. All she has to do is confirm to the Governor General that she has the support of at least 75 other MPs on the floor of the House of Representatives.

    Maybe you should be thinking about why Gillard’s negotiating skills are far superior to Abbott’s to the extent that she was able to get the support she needed when Abbott couldn’t?

    Shes even supporting the minister of horozontal services to stay in power ffs.

    Excuse me? Thomson hasn’t even been CHARGED with committing a crime. What about Senator Mary-Jo Fisher who HAS been charged with shop lifting and assault? Why aren’t you saying that she should resign from parliament?

    And yes, the liberals are proposing their plan to “combat climate change” because, guess what adam…. they are a political party!

    Yes, the Coalition accepts the science and supports action on climate change. Except they simply propose spending up to $111 billion to acheive the same thing Labor will acheive using a market mechanism.

    The rational sceptic would accept that the government’s position would at least have the benefit of not wasting as much money.

    Furthermore the liberal plan will combat many forms of pollution -instead of targeting plant food.

    No it won’t, it is designed to cut CO2 and CH4 emissions, that’s it.

    For anyone to describe jooliars carbon tax plan as putting a price on pollution is a complete and utter lie.

    The Clean Energy Future bills will put a price on atmospheric carbon pollution.

    sorry for the groundbreaking revelation their adam.

    You haven’t revealed anything.

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    Madjak

    Wow adam, you really are myopic. even trying to put words in my mouth.

    Firstly anyone with a criminal record -particularly theft – should be removed from parliament -regardless of their affiliations.
    Anyone attempting to delay or prevent the course of justice through stalls or delays -aka fwa should be stood down as well.
    anyone in parliament who supports people who are in this sort of strife should expect to go down with the people they support. Without exception and without wingeing about it.
    Forming government requires the leader of the party with the numbers to state to the gg and hence the queen, that they can govern. point stands. JG cannot.
    Thomson has avoided charges because to date the hsu snd fwa stalled it. It took sn extremely couragrous kathy jackson to finally stand for their membership. The revelations that the hdu books are a mess with missing records from thomsons time is likely grounds for prosecution under the corporations act alone.
    Even if charges cannot be laid (which I doubt), it’s the obvious attempts at covering it up which reinforce t me that this government cannot govern.

    110b is nickels and dimes compared to a market trading the invisible. look at the eu trading rorts.

    So planting 20m trees is just going to cut c02 for the environment and ch4? Put down the kool aid dude.

    Carbon is not a pollutant. Carbon is an element which permeates almost everything on this planet. Your choice of words shows you are more about party politics and spin than science or reason.

    yours,
    a carbon based life form

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    MaryFJohnston

    Madjak

    Have you noticed how G. Aye ha sdisappeared?

    has he taken on a pseudonym?

    Is he/she still here?

    The EU trading rorts. Passing Carbin Credits across inter EU borders to get tax credits; and when mates buy from each other, nudge nudge, wink wink, the carbin cost is NIL but the Carbin credit is THERE and it cost nothing.

    That last bit is not true.

    It cost some poor EEU worker a tax contribution but the workers are only drones in this Left Wing Money Grab.

    Australian workers will feel the same sting as those in the EEU.

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    Madjak

    Mary,

    Maybe gee aye has been reassigned – probably to what is left of bolts blog?

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    MaryFJohnston

    Madjak

    Are you implying bu this; “”Maybe gee aye has been reassigned”

    that he can’t think for himself;

    that there is a higher being directing his every move??

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    Madjak

    Either a conscious or unconscious one, yes, but then again i don’t believe in higher beings. Not even perverted aliens :)

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    Gee Aye

    wow… leave the internet for a few days and the conspiracy theories appear.

    Why?

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    CameronH

    Waffle, A couple of days ago you made an asertion that Andrew Bolt “Verbally Abuses” guests on his program. I watch his program and also listen to his radio segment and, although he has strong opinions and is frequently critical of people and their actions, I have never heard him “verbally Abuse” anybody. I called you on this and you said that you were going to provide some examples of this “Verbal Abuse”. I am still waiting mate!!.

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    Richard

    Gillard? Is that a typo? Shouldn’t that be two Z’s?

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    UPDATE #2: Andrew Bolt describes the Thomson meltdown as “out of control” – Senior members of the Gillard government are being accused of heavying the Health Services Union for reporting the allegation that M.P. Thomson misused Union funds to hire prostitutes… “overnight a dirt-covered shovel is left outside the door of HSU secretary Kathy Jackson, who was home alone.” Bolt also notes that the Labor Party connection with union thugs and conmen has some history.
    “What we are witnessing is more like scenes from a mafia vendetta, not the processes of a responsible government.”
    Andrew Bolt
    Have these people no scruples?

    No, I guess people like Andrew Bolt have no scruples. You idolise Alan Jones even after Cash for Comment? Don’t think he has any scruples either.

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    RED don’t you even believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

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    CameronH

    Maxine @ 225, Andrew Bolt is only reporting what is happening and what is reported at other media outlets. I guess your idea of having scuples is keeping quite about inappropriate activities that assist your ends and also intiminating people who disaggree with you.

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    Madjak

    Maxine,

    Flying spaghetti monster…. oh you mean positive feedback cycles resulting from a trace gas causing runaway global warming, or do you mean the government wants to save the planet by taxing carbon based life forms and not just as an opportunity to get a command economy in place. Or do you mean the poor poley bears are drowning because the sheep are farting?

    Nope, I don’t. None of the above.

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    AussieMagic

    I just love this site…a combination of humour and knowledge with the odd ‘whinger’ thrown in. Right now I am celebrating yesterday’s High Court decision on asylum seekers. “Blowin’ in the Wind Bowen” says “the government is considering its options”. Hey, the majority of Australians have a suggestion: labor (note small L) pack its bags and set off on the adventure of a lifetime. Six months years on the sunny shores of Antarctica chatting with the locals as you sing:

    They’re coming to take me away ho ho hee hee ha haaa!
    To the funny farm,
    Where life is beautiful all the time.
    And I’ll be happy to see those nice young men
    In their clean white coats,
    And they’re coming to take me away ha haaa!

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    Fran

    Hi,

    Can anybody please tell me whether this Grog Party artwork is available as a bumper sticker and if so, where can I purchase same?

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    Bek

    This should real become a Facebook group, so more people can agree!!

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    Dereck Eastwell

    Hi
    Cool name and what it stands for, i saw a sticker on the back of a car, can you tell me where to get them please.

    cheers dereck

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