JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).



The Skeptics Handbook

Think it has been debunked? See here.

The Skeptics Handbook II

Climate Money Paper


Advertising

micropace


GoldNerds

The nerds have the numbers on precious metals investments on the ASX



The four “gates” of the IPCC

IMAGE: IPCC Shot to Pieces

First there was Climate Gate, showing that the peer review process has descended into a criminal farce of scientific malpractice where adjusting and hiding data was de-rigueur. Hello Fraud. ClimateGate also spread to the US, where 75% of worldwide data is systematically ignored or “adjusted” until it tells the right story.

Then there was PachauriGate, showing that the man in charge of the IPCC was chairman of boards of companies that profit handsomely as the scare-factor is ramped up.

Along comes GlacierGate: about the IPCC “accidentally” using a WWF report instead of peer reviewed science papers.  After calling a 60 page Indian Govt report on glaciers “voodoo science” they were forced to apologize for that “one paragraph that was wrong”. Then Donna LeFramboise in just one day of hunting, found 16 other references in the IPCC  4th report to the “scientific journal” called “WWF”. Proving that really, the big safety-mechanism of the IPCC reputation was not in its exhaustive reviews but was in the way it made its documents so big, so dull and so unreadable, that hardly anyone actually … reads them. Call it the thousand-page-cloak-of-invisibility.

Camouflage for poor science, poor standards, bad logic, and too many vested interests to name.

Now there is AmazonGate.  The IPCC fabricates disastrous claims about the Amazon forest, and references a document written by activists that doesn’t even support the claim.

Will 40% of the Amazonian forests react drastically to even a slight change in rainfall? Is there a tipping point for the Amazon? The reference turns out to be an Australian forest specialist, who works for not just the WWF, but also for the World Conservation Union, and who according to his CV mostly works in Australia and Asia, and not the Amazon. His co-author is a journalist who’s worked on Greenpeace campaigns and for the WWF. Then, to top it off, the assertions that the IPCC attributes to them can’t even be found in the report that they wrote.

All Gates lead to humiliation and embarrassment for the followers of the great cult of the carbonistas.

And we haven’t yet got even close to the scandal of the faulty assumptions that led to the faulty models and alarmist predictions in the first place, or the even bigger scandal of how the observational evidence that proves the assumptions false is and was ignored by the IPCC.

VN:F [1.9.22_1171]
Rating: 10.0/10 (2 votes cast)
The four "gates" of the IPCC, 10.0 out of 10 based on 2 ratings

Tiny Url for this post: http://tinyurl.com/y8j9g75

146 comments to The four “gates” of the IPCC

  • #
    bill-tb

    Don’t forget sea-level-gate … and hurricane-gate.

    It’s getting hard to keep track of the lies, perhaps we should just ask what is true in the report?


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Robin Guenier

    Floodgate?


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Desert Jim

    This reminds me of the current legislative tactic of the liberals in the U.S. Congress to create 1000+ page bills that no one reads and then declare the world will end if the legislation isn’t passed immediately.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Henry chance

    Algoregate.
    Al apparently ran his sea level rise hoax past the public to save money on his seashore property in North Carolina.
    The other is Carbongate. Carbon trading fell from 7 dollars a ton to 10 cents.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Jim

    Henry chance:
    Very interested in your Carbongate and the collapse of prices.
    Where could I find a ref, thanks


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Franks

    Anybody any ideas what the name for a group of gates is called, the way it is going you had better think big.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Henry chance

    Carbon prices from the CCX. The Chicago climate exchange.

    CFI 2010 $0.10 $0.00
    The exchange was funded by Goldman Sachs and directors include Academic types that are educated like Pachauri.
    They traded 80,000 metric tons of CO2 today. That is a gross dollar volume of 8,000 doallars and a gross commission of less than 1,000 dollars. If you were a steel maker and purchased a million tons 2 years ago because you consume 3 million tons of coal to make 1 million tons of steel, you would have lost 7 million dollars. Is that a rip off?

    http://www.chicagoclimatex.com/

    On Papua New Guinea, they approached small farmers and collected 5-600 dollars a farm to help them enter access to carbon transactions. The hustlers disappeared with the money. It was a fraud.

    http://www.carbonoffsetsdaily.com/news-channels/global/broker-paid-k200000-for-carbon-%E2%80%98consultancy%E2%80%99-15695.htm

    And all these tribes are both not connected and speak different dialects/languages.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Desert Jim

    THE GATES TO HELL


    Report this

    00

  • #
    potentilla

    A group of gates in a dam are called sluicegates leading to a sluiceway. Sluicegates would be an appropriate term for getting things flushed out of the system.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Desert Jim

    As a water and wastewater engineer in another lifetime, I like your suggestion Potentilla.


    Report this

    00

  • #

    Looks like the AGW alarmists are in the final battles of their war against reality. They are losing big time. I suspect that they will double down and do more of the same. Especially since they don’t learn from history as they attempt to rewrite it.

    The writers of Monty Python’s Flying Circus could not have depicted a more delicious end for the scam.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Desert Jim

    Reminds me of James Carville’s recent advice to President Obama – Blame Bush Even More.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    PhilJourdan

    Robin, floodgates is right. They seem to have opened. We are being treated to a goof du jour!


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Michael

    Franks @ # 6

    For AGW alarmists: Escape Gates

    For AGW skeptics: Hanging Gates

    And now is not soon enough!LOL


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    A series of gates in a row become a CANAL.

    It’s ALIMENTARY my dear, and we all know what flows out of it don’t we?


    Report this

    00

  • #
    b_C

    The plural of “-gates” is “gotchas!”


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Tony Hansen

    Looks like someone forgot to shut the gate.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Bruce Leitch

    Will you guys please stop gating off!


    Report this

    00

  • #

    It just keeps coming. There are also Extinctiongate: http://www.nipccreport.org/chapter8.html
    and (I’m not the first to mention) Hurricanegate: http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2010/01/primer-on-egregious-eroors-in-ipcc-wg2.html.
    Ditto the sea level comments.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mike Lorrey

    The proper term for a series of gates is a slalom course. Which comes with many well tanned athletes resplendent in advertising for their many sources of funding making a very dramatic show of bobbing and weaving through the many gates in the least time possible. Anybody who takes out and misses a gate is disqualified.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Robert of Ottawa

    A wall of gates.
    A hole lot of gates
    A bill of gates
    A hell of a lot of gates
    Purley gates
    An arch of gates
    Gates plus ultra
    A farm of gates
    A passage of gates
    A swing of gates


    Report this

    00

  • #
    John Whitman

    Joanne,

    I wandered over here because of a reference at WUWT. I like your post.

    Somehow, Dante’s Inferno popped into my mind as I read it. Gates to the levels in his vision?

    John


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Simon

    Gates Galore ?

    Can we collect all of these Gates on a sticky post, as it’s getting hard to keep tabs on all of them?

    It’s so much fun though :)


    Report this

    00

  • #
  • #
    Roger.C

    Maybe it should just be Prison Gates – it’s what Pachauri and co should spend a long time looking at.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Carl Brannen

    The thing about the worries about the forests is that over the long term, most of the world’s forests are doomed one way or another. The land in the Pacific northwest where I live spends most of its time under 5000 feet of ice rather than trees. And the next ice age will lock up enough water from the oceans that a lot of what is now tropical forest will convert to grass (which is how it spends most of its time). If anything, man’s warming of the planet is in the direction of saving the forests.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    TomW

    All this talk of gates reminded me of articles I read awhile back about the “Gates of Hell” in Clifton New Jersey. It’s a place where several storm drains come together, and they’re pretty creepy-looking with all the dark tunnels, graffiti, etc. One website had pics of the walls as one descends down into the gates, ending with this one.

    Apropos now for the IPCC -gates, eh?


    Report this

    00

  • #
  • #
    Don.W

    What do you call a bunch of “gates”?

    Just like geese, they would of course be referred to as “Gaggle-gate”!


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Rereke Whaakaro

    Why has nobody mentioned the “Gaters” living in the New York sewer system?

    Actually, I have a serious question:

    Just a thought …


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Rereke Whaakaro

    Hmm,

    I tried putting a tab in for the question, and that didn’t work … here it is again –

    Actually, I have a serious question:

    Which organisation is responsible for Auditing the UN?

    Just a thought …


    Report this

    00

  • #
    TG Watkins(Wales)

    Can we thank Tim Berners-Lee for the opportunity that allowed Bill GATES and “Applegate”to open the “Floodgates”? Or should we return to the iron “Gates” of the MSM? Like Pandora’s Box,
    once the evil spirits are out they can never again be “Gated”, nor subjuGated. Gates exist to keep sheep in (I’m Welsh so they are always foremost in my mind) or to keep nasty, predatory
    animals out .I’m With the Duke of Wellington, at Cintra, “Take the Gate 92nd, your time has come”. (LOL ie laughs not love{ I’m very old})


    Report this

    00

  • #
    pat

    the carbon crowd continue their crusade, getting what appears to be a press release in the ‘northern star’:

    27 Jan: Northern Star, Lismore: Carbon trading cash cow
    THE introduction of an emissions trading scheme would boost the Northern Rivers economy by at least $109 million, primarily through the agricultural, tourism and fishing industries, a group of Lismore scientists has said.
    Dr Kevin Glencross and David Pont, who both contributed to areport by scientists working with the private company, Water and Carbon Group, said investingpublic funds generated through a carbon trading system would have a radical impact on the health of the Richmond River system…
    http://www.northernstar.com.au/story/2010/01/27/carbon-trading-cash-cow/

    nice former monsanto guy as CEO; u might like to look at the whole team and the board of directors:

    Water and Carbon Group
    Jim Hunter, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER
    B. Ag Ec, University of New England; MBA, Queensland University of Technology; GAICD
    Jim has 18 years commercial experience spanning numerous industries with companies such as leading global agribusiness Monsanto and has held CEO and operational roles in The Farmshed, Centrogen, and Genos. His early career was in sales, marketing and product development. Jim has developed and implemented the commercialisation strategies for several university and CSIRO created technologies.
    http://www.waterandcarbon.com.au/about-us/management


    Report this

    00

  • #
    spangled drongo

    It’s the “gatekeepers” who control the flow of science who are the problem.
    If we could only “gate” them all the world might progress a little better.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Max

    Interesting article. Btw, the neuter possessive pronoun is spelled its, not it’s, which is in fact a contraction for it is. After all, you wouldn’t write her’s or hi’s, so why it’s?


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Steve

    Collective noun for **gate?

    CLUSTERGATE!!


    Report this

    00

  • #
  • #
    Steve Schapel

    Max (#35)…

    Joanne is well known for her tendency to apostrophe abuse. ;) Regulars here have got used to it. (Actually, grammatical laxness is more likely from the artistically talented, I understand.) But leaving that aside, she sure comes up with some great information, don’t you think?


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Tel

    Dare I say it, but the horse has bolted.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mark

    MOAG

    “the mother of all gates”


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    Anybody any ideas what the name for a group of gates is called, the way it is going you had better think big.

    How about BullGate?

    Well, just a thought.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    janama

    I must add SpeciesGate.

    As I’m about to attend a luncheon with Prof. Barry Brook I thought I’d investigate exactly who he is. It appears he holds the Sir Hubert Wilkins Chair of Climate Change and notes his works as “My research focuses on global environmental change: human impacts on natural systems, in all its manifold forms”

    he lists

    * Director of Climate Science, Environment Institute
    * Climate and Energy blog/website: BraveNewClimate

    He leads a research staff of 7 and they supervise 8 PhD students who are currently researching the following:

    - Demography and control of disease-carrying tropical mosquitoes in northern Australia.
    - Factors controlling population size and extinction risk.
    - Population dynamics of small mammals in Kakadu National Park.
    - Does the inclusion of fine scale information to coarse parameter models improve population viability forecasts for small coastal and arid mammals?
    - Conservation status of Corucia zebrata in the Solomon Islands. (a skink)
    - The interactive effects of habitat degradation and climate change on Southeast Asian and Australian birds.
    - Impact of climate change and habitat fragmentation on the herpetofauna of Southeast Asia.
    Demographic impacts of future sea-level rise on Adelaide: a case study for Australian populations.

    These all appear to be valid research if one is to take the word of Professor Norman Meyers who has stated:

    If we do not do more, Myers says, the planet will continue to lose around 50 species per day compared to the natural extinction rate of one species every five years. He projected this rate in the late 1980s to much criticism, but the figure is now widely accepted by scientists. “The whole thing is taking place in what you might call a flickering of an evolutionary eye,” said Myers. “It’s hard to keep up with unless we damp down on some of the causes of the evolution.”

    http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Largest_mass_extinction_in_65_million_years_underway,_scientists_say

    Which means we must have lost approx 365,000 species since 1990, mind you, it’s hard to actually ascertain how many species there are because it appears no one actually knows.

    Further investigation shows that here in Australia we have lost the following species recently:

    Birds – last mainland bird extinction was 1920s – the Robust White eye.
    Amphibians – possibly 4 haven’t been recorded in the last 30 years.
    Reptiles – 3 mainland, 1 Norfolk Island
    Mammals – the last recorded extinction was the pig footed bandicoot in the 50s
    Invertebrates – 6 possibly – the last in 1996.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinct_animals_of_Australia

    It is also interesting to note that main donations of funds for Professor Myers work is the World Wildlife Fund, the Royal Society, NASA. Say no more!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Myers


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Sioned Lang

    I think this started with the Hockey Stick. That makes 5 gates.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Michael Cejnar

    Lets not open the champagne yet.

    In Australia, Liberal opposition, having blocked carbon trading, validated by Copenhagen, now is inexplicably suggesting a regional ‘Copenhagen’ with Indonesia towards ‘genuine binding reductions” to reduce CO2 – WTF?
    http://www.theage.com.au/environment/climate-change/coalition-urges-action-on-climate-20100124-msl0.html

    I have written to Greg Hunt, to express my dismay:
    —————————————————–
    Dear Mr Hunt
    Please don’t fall into the same hole Rudd/Wong are in regarding CO2 reduction.
    MSM – namely “The Australian” are now openly ridiculing climate scaremongering by the IPCC.
    Look at the trajectory of voter opinions world wide and in Australia – people are backing out of AGW everywhere in the last weeks, even Murdoch: http://joannenova.com.au/2010/01/media-ownership-and-the-rupert-murdoch-tipping-point/

    It is becoming almost ‘fashionable’ to be sceptic.
    India and China are having none of it and in USA – AGW is the 21st last concern on public’s mind, FDA’s CO2 endangerment ruling is under attack and may be legislated against.
    Democrats lost 3 by-elections including Massachusetts – Cap&Trade and Copenhagen probably did not help.

    And you are urging action on Climate Change?
    Just as you differentiated yourself from Labour, you merge with them again on Climate?
    http://www.theage.com.au/environment/climate-change/coalition-urges-action-on-climate-20100124-msl0.html

    Please consider the opportunity of tying Rudd and Wong to this sinking ship, without the Liberals on board.

    See attached jpg and my website: for references: http://www.nocarbontax.com.au/

    The Coalition can build a needed environmental policy on efficiency and smart technology, without buying into and getting burned by the CO2 scam….
    —————————————————-

    Any Australian voters may wish to email him as well:
    Greg.Hunt.MP@aph.gov.au


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Pat Heuvel

    …and everyone forgot (oh the humanity!) PoleyGate… think of the poor poley bears!


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Joe Simpson

    Anybody any ideas what the name for a group of gates is called, the way it is going you had better think big.

    There never having been a need for such a collective term before, methinks ‘ AR4 ‘ may assume the eponymous.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Janice

    This is pretty bad, but what about . . .

    SnowJobGate


    Report this

    00

  • #
  • #
    Joe Simpson

    The Four ‘Gates’ of the IPCC

    Like the Horsemen of the Apocalypse,
    portending The End,
    for Apocalyptic Global Warming stories at least


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Jerry

    Scientists discuss climate change, bushfire link

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/27/2802346.htm?section=justin

    Mr Davis says while climate change sceptics are in the minority in the scientific community, their views will also be examined at the conference.


    Report this

    00

  • #

    Well done

    How about AGW-Gate on Tshirts?


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Grant

    Don’t forget the most insidious of all – the Toll Gate.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Grant

    I do like the “slalom course” as a collective for gates – being as how I kayak and have tried a bit of slalom.

    I have a great respect for those who successfully negotiate the gates, go not become entangled in them and incur penalties.

    I think we need to rejig the scoring though. Instead of 2sec for touching a gate and 50sec for missing one altogether. we should aware more points for identifying a gate and avoiding it.


    Report this

    00

  • #

    So I assume that this is a “gate post”.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Gary Prince

    Snotgate – Recent research has shown that the computer modelled rate of sea-level rise that is attributed to the amount of snot cried out by eco-alarmists is grossly overstated.
    (Peer-reviewed – Strange and Bizar, “Wailing wallies” in GRL dec 2009)


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Michael

    Thumbnail @ 48

    After reading the message found at your link

    http://agmates.ning.com/forum/topics/this-just-in-from-christine

    I wrote to Ms. Imogen Birley and Ms. Milne. I shared Dr. John P Costallo’s narrative on pertinent climategate emails.

    http://www.icecap.us

    It is 209 pages long and he does a marvelous job of revealing how “scientists” sold their integrity and corrupted the scientific method.

    I don’t know anything about these women but am wondering if you think they might go to the site and read what has been written?


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Otter

    Since responsible science is being set aside by these agw idiots and mattb, I propose ‘Abdi-gate’


    Report this

    00

  • #
  • #
    nottoobrite

    Pat
    ref. Northern Star, Lismore.
    Carbon Trading Cash Cow.

    Now we see above that on the Chicago exchange prices have dropped from $7 per ton to $0.10 per ton, just wondering if the ”advisers” to this mini ripoff have a calculator, $107,000,000 divided by $0.10 ?( Today’s price $0.085 ) How many ‘gates’ to fence off this mountain ? Chicago=America=today’s volume trade 64,000 tons, America, and even Chicago I have heard of, but can someone tell me where is Lismore ?


    Report this

    00

  • #
    george

    Have only glossed through the above, but was Hurricanegate mentioned…Mr. Stern, what a mess!


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Another Ian

    A showing of my vintage but

    just imagine what

    Tom Lehrer

    could have done with all these “gates”!


    Report this

    00

  • #
    niphredil

    a group of Apes is called shrewdness. (also aptly referring to naughtiness)

    Maybe a fitting name for a group of climate’related’gates should be…
    - shrewdgatedness or
    - gateshredness or
    - gateshrewds (for short)

    or use the Crane group word of siege to make..

    - gatesiege


    Report this

    00

  • #
    george

    Lehrer rocks!

    Haven`t read all of the d`Aleo and Watts “Surface Temperature Records” epic (getting there!), but I get the impression that UrbanHeatIslandgate may not be too far away…if anything THAT will be cat-and-pigeons stuff once it goes mainstream.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    Having fun crashingates:

    polygate
    pangate
    manygate
    omnigate
    endlessgate
    liegate
    anothergate
    yetanothergate
    edugate
    ajudigate
    academicgate
    piledhighgate
    pleadthefifthgate
    alchemigate
    hysterigate
    negligate
    grossnegligate
    worsethanwethoughtgate
    skeptigate
    caughtugate
    incarcergate
    abetigate
    astoundigate
    abomigate
    malgate
    malignigate
    audaciousgate
    wizardgate
    snakeoilgate
    almostworkedgate
    bluffemgate
    congate
    repudigate
    repugnigate
    smokeandmirrorgate
    hokumgate
    excretagate
    shamgate
    shamegate
    gateosphere


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Liz

    With all this talk about “gates”, the first association I had was from the 1980′s movie Ghostbusters. Do you remember it? (those that are the right vintage.) It had the fearful, spooky and dangerous “Gate Keeper” in it. “I am the Gate Keeper!” The ghost buster team had to get past the “Gate Keeper” to save themselves and the world (or something like that). Who do you call? Ghostbusters!! Or should the AGW believers now have to call “Gatebusters?”! They may need them, ie “Gatebusters!” to destroy all these “gates” that are harming their credibility?


    Report this

    00

  • #
  • #
    nottoobrite

    Notoobrite.
    Lismore northern rivers area.. north coast .NSW
    Home of a number of Green,Environmental population…very active at pushing issues(think they have a number of retired “so called experts”)especially in local councils.
    They have pushed many policies for the coastal strip and caused “havoc among the local rural people”.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    george

    When one doesn`t know whether to laugh or cry…well, I just hope this puts a smile on a few people`s faces. And no, I do not consider it to be “off-thread” at all;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b-6U5MwyDM


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Magnus

    Forgot one:
    BillGate(s). No further comments required.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    With credit to Joe Simpson and the Book of Revelation for the idea:

    The Four Gates of the Apocalypse


    Report this

    00

  • #

    [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Tom L Lewis, Tim Myers, Joanne Nova, Aloha Analytics, Maurizio Morabito and others. Maurizio Morabito said: @JoanneNova here's the second one The Four ‘Gates’ of the IPCC « JoNova http://bit.ly/bJSVm7 – just get an account on bit.ly – [...]


    Report this

    00

  • #

    Let’s not forget “Hockey-stick gate” that was the centerpiece of Gore’s book and the IPPC contention that climate had not changed in thousands of years until CO2 took over. Geologists knew immediately that Mann et al. was rubbish and made the mistake that no one would believe such a stupid contention, but the hockey stick gained traction in the news media and was actually taken seriously.


    Report this

    00

  • #

    Here:

    http://buythetruth.wordpress.com/2010/01/26/un-ipcc-rotting-from-the-head-down

    I demonstrate that the scientific community knew about these Glaciergate errors by their being exposed in a peer-reviewed journal in 2005, which was essentially the substance of a chapter from a book published in 2004 by an authority on the Himalayas. Syed Hasnain’s pronouncements are shown to be myths, and worse. The paper appeared in Himalayan Journal of Sciences, entitled

    “Himalayan misconceptions and distortions: What are the facts? Himalayan Delusions: Who’s kidding who and why — Science at the service of media, politics and the development agencies.”

    In light of that, I find it almost certain that Pachauri and a lot of others knew that these were lies years before AR4 was published.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Real in the US

    So this is where all the tinfoil hat wearing people post.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    Real that is impressive for your first post. I wish you well here we can be very slow and patient with first timers……..


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    By the way, do you know how hard it is to find good weapons grade tin foil? Mostly cheap ALCOA product these days……You do know the difference don’t you?


    Report this

    00

  • #
    george

    Did the Greens derive their original policy on climate change from Oxfam Australia`s position…or was it the other way round? “40% by 2020″ seems to ring a bell from somewhere.
    Warning – you may need a bucket handy when reading the link;

    http://www.oxfam.org.au/explore/climate-change


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Keith

    Not sure if it was mentioned, but there is also Droughtgate

    Perhaps the IPCC (or maybe the UN ?) should be renamed “Gates R Us” ?


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    So this is where all the tinfoil hat wearing people post.

    I like my tinfoil hat. It keeps the IPCC from controlling my mind. Their nutty output bounces right off.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    george

    For those who haven`t seen it yet, here is David Kreutzer last year on effects of cap-and-trade…so guess what is mooted to be re-inroduced in parliament here next week. Sigh.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/article/catastrophic-economic-impact-cap-and-trade


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mike Flynn

    Where can I buy a tinfoil hat? Aliens are trying to make me think that it must warm up between glacial periods. Help!!


    Report this

    00

  • #
    R Dunn

    Now Playing –

    IPCC – Shot to Pieces : The Movie

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jwa6PgP9dM


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    Where did you Aussies find the guns?

    Great job and I’m sure it makes some people nervous!


    Report this

    00

  • #
    george

    From a few years back – and I suspect he was stating the obvious more than pushing an agenda, although anecdotally Gorby does have a “globalisation” reputation;

    “The emerging ‘environmentalization’ of our civilization
    and the need for vigorous action in the interest of the entire global
    community will inevitably have multiple political consequences.
    Perhaps the most important of them will be a gradual change
    in the status of the United Nations. Inevitably, it must
    assume some aspects of a world government.”
    - Mikhail Gorbachev,
    State of the World Forum
    Gorbachev, Mikhail. Keynote address – State of the World Forum 1996, San Francisco.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    Mike Flynn,

    I bought mine from an outfit called Erogla. They have a store at 5302 Snoitan Detinu Street, Nesnah Semaj City, Mars. You can place your order by phone at 1-800-WGA-CCPI.


    Report this

    00

  • #

    [...] only that vested interests have manipulated it beyond any sense of reality. Jo Nova takes aim at the UNIPCC and its appalling practice of using any junk possible in an attempt to prove its [...]


    Report this

    00

  • #
    J.Hansford

    Franks:
    January 27th, 2010 at 5:53 am
    Anybody any ideas what the name for a group of gates is called, the way it is going you had better think big.

    Hmmm. a collective noun for gates…?

    A clank of gates?… A slew of gates… A batch of gates… A rattle of gates… A stand of gates(last stand perhaps;-)….A jury of gates… just a lot of really embarassing gates:-)


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    Hey Roy that’s where I got mine! Much better quality than what you find around here. I found matching rabbit ears at Tram-k (you can locate them almost anywhere.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Baa Humbug

    .Hansford:
    January 28th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
    Franks:
    January 27th, 2010 at 5:53 am

    With due credit to Magnus #69

    A Bill of Gates

    That should do it


    Report this

    00

  • #

    Sadly, we have been hoodwinked away from diminishing the real problem, POLLUTION, by a bunch of lock-stepping pomposity laden professorial bastards.

    City air pollution kills more than TWICE as many people than do traffic accidents and autos are a big killer.

    Those Monsanto people mentioned in comments above have unleashed chemicals that slaughter insects but not too selectively. Tons of bee colonies have vanished. Hives are trucked around USA and Canada to pollinate crops. In China, whole families move about pollinating crops using feathers attached to poles.

    Frogs have diminished greatly. They eat those chemically poisoned bugs.

    Diminished bird populations you know about.

    We humans can not alter sun cycles so fooling with global warming or cooling is lunacy.

    Clean energy and electric vehicles however are within our tiny limited ability.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Baa Humbug

    Now we have Atollgate

    Remember Ian Fry the “crying” representative of Tuvalu at the COP 15?
    Seems his atoll island CANNOT sink as the alarmists (Greenpeace especially) would have us believe.

    Greenpeace even convinced Micronesia to sue the Chezh republic for their emissions.

    Here


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Baa Humbug

    This is the Tuvaluan representative calling for help as his island is sinking. The accent is hard to make out but I think it’s our good friend Lubos Motl who got the call.

    here

    :) :) :) :)


    Report this

    00

  • #
    MattB

    Humbug – what was my comment about some people believeing anything they read just because it supports their religiously held views? I do hope you research what real research scientists have to say about atolls and sea level change.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Baa Humbug

    I am an atheist Matt. Why don’t you go ahead and tell me what the real (read IPCC) scientists say.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    george

    People, that reminds me…I believe it is Professor Ian Fry that has been referred to, of the ANU no less. Attended Copenhagen at whose expense?

    The only reason Tuvalu is likely to sink anytime soon is most likely due to geological subsidence rather than rising sea levels, read an interesting article recently on that subject in relation to European and Pacific nations – apologize profusely, no link.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    george

    And a little Tuvalu addendum – remember those 3,000-odd “climate” refugees from Tuvalu moving to New Zealand, not that sea levels have risen that much in the last couple of decades?

    Well, a Kiwi made an interesting post in a forum on another website stating they were actually “environmental degradation through overpopulation” refugees. Have a read of this link, puts the “climate” refugee publicity this event attracted into an interesting IPCC publicity perspective.

    http://seekerblog.com/archives/20091231/tuvalu-a-climate-change-fairy-tale/


    Report this

    00

  • #
    MattB

    Atheist???? well at least we have common ground on the most important issues:)


    Report this

    00

  • #
  • #
    Roy Hogue

    Mark,

    Our local Tram-k has been closed down for several years. I tried Tramlaw but they don’t carry rabbit ears. Any suggestions?


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    Maybe I should just check into the nearest deddap llac and be done with it.


    Report this

    00

  • #

    Thanks so much for the honourable mention. I have a follow-up post on Greenpeace-generated literature in the Nobel-winning climate report.

    I’ve also discovered that Dr. Pachauri, the IPCC chairman, has written at least one forward for a Greenpeace publication. Which strikes me as rather cozy…

    http://nofrakkingconsensus.blogspot.com/2010/01/greenpeace-and-nobel-winning-climate_28.html

    All the best!


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Henry chance

    Malariagate

    New Ammunition from an E-Mail Scandal
    For years, malaria expert Paul Reiter of the Paris-based Pasteur Institute has criticized the warning, as expressed in the third IPCC report, that climate change will lead to the spread of malaria, saying that there is no evidence to support such a claim. Reiter accuses many climatologists of perceiving themselves too strongly as activists who are more interested in spreading an alarmist message.

    Scientists already feel that the second part of the IPCC report, which addresses the consequences of global warming, is not as sound as the first part, which deals with the underlying physical factors contributing to climate change. This could, in fact, explain how the erroneous Himalayan prognosis slipped into the report in the first place. The report’s lead author, Murari Lal, defends himself by saying that “the melting of the glaciers is such a huge threat to so many people” and, for that reason, had to be included in the report. According to malaria researcher Reiter, it is precisely this passion that is so dangerous to science.

    The fear, the facts and the refutation

    http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=9685251


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Bush bunny

    REAL IN THE US! Yes dear, and we are in AUSTRALIA, you know, Down Under? Not Austria, as most of your country folk seem to think. That’s in E-U-R-O-P-E.

    If you have a comment to make, avoid sarcastic remarks. Aussies
    are somewhat immune, you can’t insult us easily. Just explain
    how poor old Ted Kennedy’s seat has been won by a Republican? (GOP) Maybe Sarah Palin will win next election (SOS) That will silence any climate change debate, she believes the Earth was only created 6,000 years ago, so the IPCC are up
    themselves with their fraudulent records! LOL


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Bush bunny

    GeorgeGuitar: I was going to give you a thumbs up! Wouldn’t let me. Your comments re Monstano are quite in order. They claim to own the patent for several dozen seed crops that are Round Up resistant. Then charge farmers who grow Canola that has been cross pollinated by bees for a license to grow their crops.

    Just Google Monstano and see the Canadian farmer who was sued.

    They are not getting a hold with their GM crops in NSW. They are a danger to humanity I agree and insects.

    But car exhausts are not contributing to the deaths of people as you suggest. Although two of my good friends died via completing suicide that way. That’s why big urban cities like Sydney have a pollution haze always.

    I agree that electric cars would be a great idea, and China is
    in the forefront of developing them. However, the Greens
    in Australia are against them… as they need being recharged
    by brown coal electricity plants. Wind generated electricity
    is fraught with problems. Even in Denmark it has to be supplemented by coal burning power plants. Solar is a problem too. One sugar cane residue electricity plant is threatened and it does generate enough electricity for a smaller community, because the government is giving rebates to solar uses at their expense. I’d like solar but can’t afford it. But installed a rain water plant that actually I got all monies spent back from State and Fed Governments.

    Yes sustainability should be given a lot of mention. But quoting incorrect data to substantiate your stance on AGW, doesn’t win any votes. That’s the problem with the IPCC.
    They tried to manipulate developed countries to pay for third
    world countries demise. Tuvula is just one atoll. Another
    wants Australia to take them not as refugees, oh No, but train them to become worthwhile Aussie citizens.

    Atolls are renown for slipping back into the sea. But when
    Bermuda has problems then we have genuine problems. It’s a
    tax dodge for many billionaires just to reside there, and only
    150 feet above sea level at its highest point.

    Cairns by the say, has king tides encroaching down their main
    street you know?


    Report this

    00

  • #
    buzz345

    Here’s a comment I sent to the Australian today commenting on a reader’s letter to the editor

    … for a well documented history into Glaciergate check out ‘the Glacier show; a comedy in many parts http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2010/01/glacier-show-comedy-in-many-parts.html
    As to the latest claim by Jonathan Leake about the cost of natural disasters I suggest you check out Roger Pielke Jr’s blog http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2010/01/what-tangled-web-we-weave.html which refers to the other important story in involving the Muir-Wood et al. 2006 paper that was misrepresented by the IPCC as showing a linkage between increasing temperatures and rising damages from extreme weather events; this story comes from a reviewer of the Stern Review on which the Muir Wood basis for projecting future global losses from extreme events is based; Roger Pielke pointed out the error in the Stern Review which was modified after publication based on the reviewer’s comments now the Stern Review math does not add up, as the total GDP impact from USA, UK and Europe does not come anywhere close to the 1% global total for developed country impacts (based on Muir-Wood), much less the higher values suggested as possible in the report’s text, underscoring a key point of Roger Pielke’s 2007 paper; so now we have the IPCC changing things without acknowledgement or notification; based on that and on climategate; glaciergate; Pachaurigate; Amazongate; Sterngate; temperaturegate (the alarming disappearance of gauges from cool locations; WWFgate (the reliance by IPCC of a political organisations papers in its latest report) I say the IPCC has no remaining credibility and science should never have been polluted in this way; it’s political science and that’s no science at all

    on my count there are 7 gates and the ‘change after publication’ matter which could be called ‘ghostgate’ in all 8 gates of the IPCC


    Report this

    00

  • #
    unknownknowns

    I posted this originally on the Delingpole blog the other day.

    OT: Who put the ‘gate’ in climate?

    While viewing some old newspaper articles online I came across an interesting story headed “Evidence shows world cooling trend” from The Bulletin, dated July 24, 1974.

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=xi8VAAAAIBAJ&sjid=8fcDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6670,4007344&dq=Experiment&hl=en

    From text towards the bottom-left of the graph, that proves the cooling?

    As for today’s climate, the World Meteorological Organization and the International Council of Scientific Unions is sponsoring a 10-year Global Atmospheric Research Program (GARP), aimed at advancing the sciences of climatology and meteorology. Its first major international effort, the GARP Atlantic Tropical Experiment (GATE), began June 15, 1974

    Do you think someone was having a larf, given that the original gate had only just recently been established as a postfix for everything a bit dodgy?

    Coincidentally, on the same page, towards the end of the 2nd paragraph, we have this:

    The decline of prevailing temperatures since about 1945 appears to be the longest-continued downward trend since temperature records began. says Professor Hubert H Lamb of the University of East Anglia in Great Britain.

    So, looks like the UEA also has some previous when it come to association with ‘gate’ :)


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Baa Humbug

    Good one unknownknowns


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Baa Humbug

    Hey Donna, how nice to see you here at Jo’s place.
    Great blog you got there by the way. Keep up the good work. (I bet you’re squinting your eyes reading all those tiny print references :) )


    Report this

    00

  • #

    Bush bunny:
    January 29th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
    REAL IN THE US! Yes dear, and we are in AUSTRALIA, you know, Down Under? Not Austria, as most of your country folk seem to think. That’s in E-U-R-O-P-E.

    Now, now bunny, not all who visit here with Jo are from Down Under. Brian Valentine and I are both Yanks.

    It’s our current President who can’t figure out the Austria/Australia thingie or the Austrian/Australian language thingie. He sure as heck don’t speak for all of us (yeah, I know that’s his official job description and all but…)and there’s a great deal of “buyer’s remorse” right now in the USA. As he has deeply held religous belief in AGW, what can we say about his scientific knowledge?


    Report this

    00

  • #
  • #
    Roy Hogue

    …what can we say about his scientific knowledge?

    JL,

    I can’t say anything, since he has none to talk about. I’m a Yank as well and at least I don’t have buyer’s remorse since I voted for the other guy.

    On the science Obama is no worse off than many others. But politically he’s an extreme danger because, unlike many others, it’s not about money with him; it’s all about an ideology that sees his country as unworthy to be the world leader it’s been for so long. And if we fall to this man no one will come to our rescue. He seems quite willing to let the UN become our government.

    Thankfully, while he blames his predecessor and Republicans for his failure to get what he wants, it’s his own party that’s been his nemesis.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    PhilJourdan

    JLK #109

    It’s our current President who can’t figure out the Austria/Australia thingie or the Austrian/Australian language thingie. He sure as heck don’t speak for all of us

    I know he does not know how many states he is president of, but he is now confusing 2 of our allies? It does not surprise me. After all, he stated unequivocally the “overwhelming scientific evidence on climate change”, without actually saying why (i.e. whether man has caused it). He takes a lot of words usually to say nothing, as is the case here (plausible deniability).


    Report this

    00

  • #

    Bush Bunny,

    Thank you for your partial support. 1:37pm and 4:45pm

    Just to assure you that electric vehicles are a great jump ahead even when they tap into coal fired energy.

    Gasoline requires drilling, pumping, transport, refining, more transport and electric pumping sales stations. Gasoling delivers service to the wheels at 23% to 28% efficiency.

    Battery power can operate drawing from the grid here in British Columbia at over three million vehicles charging nightly with no aterations or overtaxing the system at all.

    Unlike gasoline, battery power delivers power to the wheels at 96% efficiency.

    So drawing from the same grid as gasoline delivery and refining does. EVs are still a vastly better value and so much cleaner as well. TG


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Bush bunny

    Hi JLKrueger?

    I was being sarcastic of course. But several years ago before
    Obama became president, a team of Ozzies went to the US of A,
    and asked people had they heard of Australia. Many were a bit
    fazed, and some said ‘Oh – yeah, where Hitler was born?’… It’s
    in Europe isn’t it?..” Mind you they most probably hand picked people to show a lack of knowledge in geography? LOL. That’s the media for you.

    Tony Abbott is now biting the bullet, even though Sen.Wong suggested strongly ‘He thinks climate change is crap?’ We’ll wait until Tuesday to see what Mr Abbott has to offer. He has stated that his ETS will involve no taxes. However, Mr
    Rudd has stated in the media, “He is suggesting one big Mega
    tax…’ Hot air of cause. From what I believe Tony is moving
    towards sustainability, and increasing the carbon sequestration
    in soils. Establishing Green Corps, etc.

    I think President Obama is sitting on an unexploded bomb for
    credibility, but I have confidence in you yanks, you are no fools. I believe his comment on ‘Climate change’ and that ‘he knew some people didn’t agree with it..’ (Address to the Union) smiling to himself and the VP and the chairwoman of the senate all smiling broadly too, I heard laughter in the background,
    may be reflected in a Senate vote to support his bill. And he
    will lose the next election if it is. And you may have Sarah Palin as President (SOS) Sustainability is one thing, taxation well who won an election on increasing it? (OK Aussies, John Howard did on the GTS tax). But that was because no one liked
    Keating.

    But I leave foreign political opinion to those who live in their
    countries as every country has a different set of circumstances
    and of course each state has a different climate and weather
    pattern.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Bush bunny

    Hi Tony Guitar, British Columbia eh. They are addressing sustainability I believe well. I like British Columbia, they still retain the Union Jack on their State Flag. Oh, Like Hawaii
    sorry American friends.

    China is in the forefront of electric car production. However
    something was pointed out to me, solar thermal and geo thermal require the use of underground water…. it’s not renewable like
    oil. Artesian water is greatly used in Australia, and Lance Endersbee (I think I spelt his name correctly) suggested use of it would cause it to run out, as it wasn’t replenished by rain.

    So some of the well thought alternative mass energy schemes have
    problems. Wind generated electricity and domestic solar also have problems particularly in climates that get cold or windless. I don’t know what the solution is. There are better
    educated people on this blog than me, who understand the nitty gritty of the science. One thing I know, the politics surrounding this Climate change swindle is enough to make people
    to start to think more towards sustainability.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    Tonyguitar,

    You are dreaming if you believe electric hybrid vehicles are overall better for the environment. The only argument that can be made is that they are better for reducing smog in large cities.

    Fossil burning electric generation facilities run about 33% efficient. It takes between 30 to 60 pounds of coal (depending on the type) to make the same amount of energy as 1 gallon of gasoline.

    Gasoline is 125,000 BTU per gallon at $2.80 USD

    Coal is between 10 to 20 pounds for the same POTENTIAL BTU.

    After 30% efficiency you need 30 to 60 pounds of coal to create the same value of energy as one gallon of gasoline.

    We have not yet got that electricity to your hybrids’ wheels. The transport over the electric “grid” losses are another 7%. The charging system in the hybrid car will lose another significant percentage too.

    When you factor in the huge amount of energy it takes mine and process the metals for and to manufacture the batteries you are in the hole deep. Lets not even consider the cost premium for buying that nice warm feeling eco-car.

    If you want to be green, stop driving.

    References
    Coal BTU per pound and Gasoline BTU per gallon
    http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/wcee/keep/Mod1/Whatis/energyresourcetables.htm

    Electric generation facilities efficiency
    http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/page/co2_report/co2report.html

    Grid Transmission losses
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Bush bunny

    Mark D: At a recent Greens meeting, Sen.John McKay said ‘Electric Cars do nothing to eliminate CO2 emissions as they depend on recharging via coal fired electricity plants. However
    what do we do, go back to the horse and buggy? Costs more to feed a horse than a petrol driven motor vehicle. If I had the dollars I would go all solar with electricity back up. But domestic electricity is cleaner than wood, gas or oil heating.
    It’s the plants that supply it,that seem to generate the AGW’s err.

    Mind you if for short journeys they developed cars or MV with one cylinder say, that would help surely. They are available. How much they cost I haven’t a clue. I drive mainly into town, maybe to a nearby town once a month, if that. I don’t need a six cylinder car really.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    Bush Bunny,
    The first thing I’d suggest is to worry less.

    Then the next time you buy a vehicle buy the lowest cost, highest MPG mileage USED car you can find that will fit your needs. By purchasing a used car you are saving money and re-cycling.

    After that worry less.

    You are right about the cost to feed a horse. That is why you don’t see them much at Walmart. :)


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Cameron

    Mark D,
    33% would be the low efficency for most modern plant in a country like Australia. A 6 feedheating stage coal plant will get about 36-38%, A higher pressure super/ultrasuper critical plant will get about 42-55% and an intergrated coal gasification combined cycle gas turbine heat recovery bioler will get up to 60% efficencies. If you start with gas for the combined cycle plants you go up from here.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    I won’t dispute your new (or remodeled) plant efficiencies but there are still plenty online that are not that highly efficient. When buying electricity you can’t choose which plant you are getting it from.

    In the automobile, fuel density is important and batteries are not very energy dense. The weight of battery powered autos is another source of inefficiency that has to be made up.

    The whole point is that there is a bunch of carbon on the other end of that electric receptacle. Lots of folks don’t know or forget that. Electric car salespeople are happy to tout that 90+% to the wheel efficiency from the battery and ignore the other losses (like the charger and vehicle weight).


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Bush bunny

    Mark D: Well spot on. My present car is only 11 years old, is
    fuel conservative and in great condition only 900k kms. I always buy old cars for less than $5000 mainly because I can’t afford more.

    My worry is that the ETS Tony Abbott and Obama are proposing will not do justice to our environmental situation. And not show up the great climate swindle for what it is. I use low watt globes, am electricity only (cleaner atmosphere) although I have oil ducted heating, I use a electric fan and blanket. A two bar electric fire sometimes in the lounge room if I have guests, I always tell them to wrap up warmly. And I live in
    a temperate area where night time temps can plummet to minus 15 degrees C. Mainly in the valley 3 kms from me, I live on a ridge so we are 5 c warmer in winter.

    My garden is green, (organically managed) with a new rainwater tank to supplement some garden use, not all, runs the second toilet and also washing machine, that has eco saving on it. What more do can people do. Oh, I don’t eat a lot of red meat.
    One big rump steak a month perhaps, that I enjoy.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    ANGRY

    SUBJECT: IPCC’s latest source: what some blokes told some green student

    Can the IPCC seem more ridiculous and agenda-driven? Now comes the most disgraceful example of its cherry-picking
    READ MORE HERE:-

    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/ipccs_latest_source_what_some_blokes_told_some_green_student/


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Bush bunny

    I’ve just watched Obama’s Address to the Union in the USA Congress. He is wanting to pass his clean energy bill, that includes nuclear, gas and oil, clean coal etc. in his address.
    To make the USA a leader in clean energy. (economically like China?) He stressed whether you believed climate change science or not, then, his bill will benefit Americans. So where is the reducing CO2 emissions. Never mentioned.

    You see I somewhat agree with him, I do not from the Chenobyl incident think nuclear is the best way to go, just in case there
    are dreadful accidents… however Chenobyl was an old reactor and the Russians haven’t been renown for technology expertise. The modern reactors are clean from CO2 emissions. Canada uses
    gas and oil to fuel most of their electricity plants.

    So where does the ETS tax come in – doesn’t matter eh?


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    I would not bet on nuclear or offshore drilling any time soon. Obama may say many things but when it comes to doing them…


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Bush bunny

    Well I followed the American elections, and he did say then he
    felt that he would explore the technology of clean energy, including nuclear, off shore drilling for gas and oil, solar and wind generated electricity. Sarah Palin of course was never for
    climate change believers either and could (SOS) pull the GOP
    nomination for the 2012 president. SOS!

    Now with Ted Kennedy’s seat gone to a GOP rep, I think Obama is treading on very thin ice. Remember China is the US of A’s biggest creditor, and they are not for giving any leeway to a capitalist western power. I think he will win through. But as far as Rudd is concerned he’s a twit of the biggest political
    international flavor. He can’t even respond to Lord Monckton
    without slandering him. And that Milibank? Both in the same
    category.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    susan jackson

    hello, what about EDGEMIGATEING the ones that dont wanna know about this waffle on climitegate etc. i beleive we are all going to end up behind some sort of gate down the track.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Tel

    At a recent Greens meeting, Sen.John McKay said ‘Electric Cars do nothing to eliminate CO2 emissions as they depend on recharging via coal fired electricity plants. However what do we do, go back to the horse and buggy?

    Well you could start by forgetting about all the worry on CO2 emissions and concentrating on things that actually matter.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Tel

    Cameron, I agree that 33% efficiency would be an old plant but around Sydney, power stations like Liddell were built in the 70′s although it has been upgraded somewhat since then. Old stations are an economic reality because it doesn’t even start to make sense to rip apart perfectly good infrastructure to get a few percent better efficiency.

    The efficiency in general cannot just keep getting better and better because basic thermodynamics says you need higher temperatures and higher pressures to improve efficiency — there’s only so far you can go before the plant falls to bits under the strain. Adding stages does help, but only incrementally with a rapidly diminishing return as you add more stages. Old plants last a long time because they were NOT built to the very limit of the materials.

    Besides, the stations are sitting right on a coal seam so you just scoop out the coal and feed it through the station. There is absolutely no reason for electricity to be expensive.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    TEL @127: Well you could start by forgetting about all the worry on CO2 emissions and concentrating on things that actually matter.

    Tel, I didn’t want to sound blunt That’s why I said “don’t worry so much”, but I am in full agreement with you.

    As to the efficiency comments, I realize they are simple comparisons. There are also losses (or carbon effects) in the refining and delivery of gasoline too. I simply wanted to expose the silliness of marketing “Green stuff” to the “Greenly inclined”. There is a lot of that going on right now and much of it is (what comes out of the posterior of Bulls)…….

    I spent an hour last night watching an otherwise interesting PBS program on Harp Seals and Narwhals. Every other comment was about how they were both in eminent peril because of climate change and global warming. It is no wonder people are feeling panicky about “doing something”?


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Stephen Grossman

    With the unusually cold weather this winter, perhaps we could turn Al Gore upside down and use his hot air as a snow blower.


    Report this

    00

  • #

    Tel,

    Sorry about this statement / generality…

    [Quote] ”At a recent Greens meeting, Sen.John McKay said ‘Electric Cars do nothing to eliminate CO2 emissions as they depend on recharging via coal fired electricity plants. However what do we do, go back to the horse and buggy?”

    False; fails to account for efficiencies of return.

    Mark D:

    Your argument failed for the same reason.

    Your links look impressive at first, yet …

    7% line loss is a constant for all electric uses. == I did not refute that.

    Electric generation facilities efficiency. == I did not refute that.

    Btu values Coal vs gasoline? == I did not refute that.

    Are you trying to say the mining of oil, transport of oil, refining of oil, delivery transport of gasoline to electrically run retail stations and pumps does not consume much electricity?

    I rest my case. TG


    Report this

    00

  • #

    PS:

    Did you pay $6,000 for your cell phone?

    That’s what they cost in the early days.

    These are early days for large format auto battery packs.

    Guaranteed that in time you will only pay a fraction today’s eight to $12,000 batt/pack prices. TG


    Report this

    00

  • #

    More to the point:

    Global warming is a fraud and a decoy to keep us lemmings from railing against the real criminals. Chemical companies run amuck.

    Global pollution is the real cause. We can’t do much to alter solar storms anyway.

    Meanwhile, were you aware that tons of bee colonies have vanished? That bee colonies are trucked all over eastern USA and Canada to pollinate crops?

    Were you aware that families travel about farms in China hand pollinating orchards with feathers attached to long poles.

    Were you aware of missing frog populations? They eat the chemically poisoned bugs, nest pas?

    Here in British Columbia there are vastly fewer butterflies, mosquitos and shad flies.

    Smog from truck and auto exhaust in cities kills more than twice those
    killed by auto accidents. Huge national medical plan savings when we switch to EVs. Add that the the Electrical auto savings side of the ledger. TG


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Tel

    The other problem with electric cars is that they are heavy. I remember that Top Gear had a run around with the Tesla Roadster which uses the best battery technology available in the world (don’t look at the price, don’t even think about the price) and the Tesla Roadster is substantially heavier than the equivalent petrol vehicle (which they also had running side by side).

    Heavy vehicles suffer the inefficiency of stop/start and cornering, all the force on everything is greater (suspension, tyres, steering). Some of that is recaptured by regenerative braking but you have the fundamental problem that rather than carry person from A to B, you are carrying person + massive battery pack + heavy equipment to carry battery pack from A to B.

    By the way, China is enthusiastic about electric cars because they are sitting on nearly all the world’s supply of Neodymium which is a prime ingredient for high efficiency electric motors. The political difficulty of buying oil from arabs at market prices is going to happen all over again buying motors from China when the day comes that China no longer feels the need to hand manufactured goods to foreigners at debt-subsidized rates.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Tel

    Meanwhile, were you aware that tons of bee colonies have vanished? That bee colonies are trucked all over eastern USA and Canada to pollinate crops?

    Were you aware that families travel about farms in China hand pollinating orchards with feathers attached to long poles.

    Although worthy of research, the panic merchants are thrashing the bee story far more than it is really worth.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427316.800

    Also:

    http://cookingupastory.com/manual-fruit-tree-pollination-in-japan

    In summary, the feather pollination method was used before any colony collapse was happening (it gives better fruit); the majority of our crops don’t depend on bees anyhow; there are multiple different species of bees (including wild bees) so decline in the genetically-narrow domestic bees gives no indication of whether other types of bee are declining; and finally, on a worldwide scale there is no decline, there is just decline in certain regions (and I’m sure it is important to the people of those regions).


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    Tony, perhaps my comment “your dreaming” was taken to mean that I was insulting you (which was not the case). That expression is used among friends in my part of the world.

    What is the “efficiency of return” for an electric car?

    I already said if you really want to be green don’t drive.

    I also already said: “The next time you buy a vehicle buy the lowest cost, highest MPG mileage USED car you can find that will fit your needs. By purchasing a used car you are saving money and re-cycling.”

    No I don’t believe electric car batteries will come down that far in cost. I have heard the same thing about silicon solar cells for 30 years and they remain too high to be a practical electric supply (unless you have no grid access). There is no way the built in carbon costs of batteries (Due to mining and manufacturing energy)will ever go away.

    Yes I’m aware of bee, problems. Many people are studying that and by no means has it been decided that it is chemicals. Right now a significant theory is that it is because of parasites. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090414084627.htm

    The frog situation is not clear or universal and the assumption that it is man caused is premature. In Minnesota the deformed frog scare several years ago turned up no direct link to pollution, pesticides or humans. http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-043-01/

    The vast missing insects you observe, could also be because of the healthier biodiversity brought about by SIGNIFICANT improvements in waste handling (ie pollution). since the 50s 60s and 70s. Which means more living predators of insects. All I know is that we have plenty of insects where I live (not counting politicians). You can have all the mosquitoes you want. (let me know where to send them)

    The last three items you have mentioned makes me think you are panicked. Panic is completely unproductive and a panicked assumption that seems intuitive (like it must be all those bad chemical companies) is foolish. Take a breath the world is very likely not going to end soon.


    Report this

    00

  • #

    Tesla Roadster has been out for years.

    Their battery pack is old format tubular. The new format is flat rectangle sandwich design [used in the Nissan Leaf], and cools much more efficiently.


    Report this

    00

  • #

    EVs heavier?

    The Nissan Leaf has virtually the same curb weight as the Nissan family sedan. IC engine and complex junk about the same weight as the Batt.Pack or about 400 pounds.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    You might be a Nissan sales person so I’ll defer to your expertise.

    The Leaf has a range of 100 miles average. I couldn’t find any information on cabin heat necessary in half the USA Half the year. Also nothing on air conditioning necessary in the other half of the country. To reach the same range as a Dodge Neon you’d need more than 3 times the battery (so what would that weigh? and where would you put it and what would the suspension look like) 3x 440 = 1320 added to the curb weight of 2500-3000 pounds = a very heavy 3820-4320 Which is Extremely heavy for a mini size car Dodge Neon = 2500.

    Nissan’s own web site is very short on specifications and has a lot of Weasel Words in the pop question section. I could not find the curb weight or charge specifications on the Nissan site.

    Takes 16 hours to charge a Leaf if you only have 120 VAC which is common in USA. (from Popular Mechanics)

    This comment on Popular Mechanics:
    I don’t know what rates are everywhere else but in CT they charge you for generation($.12), along with disturbution ect for a total of $.175 per kWh. Thats $4.20 for 100 miles. Gas at $2.50 a gallon would be $7.14 for 100 mile in a 35mpg car. At say 1000 mile per month thats $42.00 for the Leaf, and $71.40 for the misc 35mpg car. So I could save $29.40 a month on fuel. Now for the car payment. I have heard estimates of $30,000 – $7500(govt)= $22500 + battery lease(?) $22500 @ 6.0% 60 months = $435.00 a month 2009 Nissan Sentra(comparable gas car) $17,000 $17,000 @ 6.0% 60 months = $328.00 $435-$328 = $107 – $29 = $78 Does anyone really think this is going to save you money?

    After 3 years you’ll be looking at a $10,000 battery replacement. (Unless you have an add on lease)

    2000 miles a month (20 day work week) (the most the Leaf will do) cost = $9.00 USD at .10 per KW electric per day (30Kw)= $180/per20 day month

    Dodge Neon 2000 miles @ 30MPG = 67 GALLONS X $2.80=$187.00

    I say there is NO reason to play this game on the cost alone. As for the carbon effect see the other comments and figure 3 gallons of gas per day (about 60 pounds of Co2) or 30Kw of electric per day. (30 pounds of coal per day at the generation plant 30% efficiency forget the 7% line losses= 72 pounds of Co2 per day)

    1 kg of coal produces about 2 kWh of electrical energy. Since 1 kg coal emits 2.93 kg CO2,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal

    1 gallon of gasoline produces about 20 pounds of Co2
    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/co2.shtml

    I’ll stick with the Neon and you greenies keep dreaming.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    I realize the Neon is no longer produced (it just happens to be a car I am familiar with. Just substitute any 30 MPG small car.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Bush bunny

    Some years ago the Armidale Dumaresq Council, had a nice little
    free bus that was electric. But it was always breaking down and it was recharged at the local TAFE college. It proved too expensive to run tourists around to show them our heritage buildings and sites. Shame though.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    Sorry I caught my own error (it was late and I had to search many pages to find the info I wanted):

    2000 miles a month (20 day work week) (the most the Leaf will do) cost = $9.00 USD at .10 per KW electric per day (30Kw)= $180/per20 day month

    that should be 2000 miles at 30KW per day x .10 = $3.00 per day or $60 pr month. This would realize a savings of $127.00 per month in gasoline at 30MPG. I believe the carbon calculation is correct.

    Please note I used 30KW even though the battery is rated at 24KW. I could not find any information on the charger efficiency.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    vfiore

    don’t forget wikipedia (-gate, if you wish): one of the thugs of real climate has been controlling and “adjusting” thousands of climate-related entries for several years now…


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Freeone

    The EPA basis its decissions on the UN IPCC and on that basis a whole mess of regulations are about to be enacted by them. One will be to increase ethinol amounts in gas to 20% from 10%. At 10% ethinol is destroying gas pumps. At 20% it will do considerable damage to any vehicle. Also the price of food will greatly increase again and million more people of the 3rd world will starve. This will be the mother of all gates if these regulations go into effect.


    Report this

    00

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    Fox news is reporting today that Phil Jones of CRU fame has considered committing suicide. They post the following link to the Times of London for the full article.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7017922.ece

    It’s tragic to see a man who once was riding so high reduced to considering suicide. Thankfully he appears to have finally rejected the idea.


    Report this

    00

  • #