JoNova

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China “copied its way” to economic power to put it (too) politely

And so the mask comes off. After forty years of cheating in a “forced technology transfer” the game is up. Trump called China for the theft of intellectual property, then launched a trade war, but the CCP already had stolen much of the information it needed.

This is not just an economic war, this is a big wet blanket on some kinds of scientific research. With one big bad player in the game breaking the rules, there is less incentive for people to announce and share discoveries. Royalties can’t be enforced, and a competitor might copy and compete against you. Are we entering a new era cold war of secrecy?

Back to Zang: Now that there is no need to hide the theft, nor pander in the hope of taking more, another Chinese Professor openly bragged about the situation last week:

China ‘Copied Its Way’ to Economic Success, Chinese Professor Boasts

Nicole Hao and Cathy He, Epoch Times

For the past 40 years, the Chinese regime only did one thing: plagiarize, Zang Qichao, a prominent marketing expert and visiting professor of Beijing’s Tsinghua University, told a group of Chinese entrepreneurs recently.

“We plagiarized wildly, copied wildly,” Zang said.

“What intellectual property rights? What patented technology? We’ll get it first and deal with it later.”

Through this approach, China has skyrocketed to become one of the world’s leading economies, and now finds that there’s nothing left to replicate, Zang said.

For years, the CCP told businesses they would get access to the vast Chinese market if they worked with local firms. This arrangement meant Chinese staff soon learnt how everything worked, then gradually replaced the foreigners.

“When we look back, the factories are ours, the equipment is ours, the technology is ours, the patents are ours,” Zang said. “The foreigners have all gone.”

Green Dragon, China.Imagine a Westerner anywhere proudly saying “the foreigners have all gone?”

Feel the hostility — the complete lack of respect or shred of any gratitude.

Where are the squad of progressive Sino activists lecturing Zang for his racist hate? The CCP plagiarized many things, but they didn’t copy that.

The West hoped China would develop like Japan. The good people of China probably hoped that too.

The more Woke the West gets, the more it sleeps at the wheel.

______________

The Epoch Times also tells us that former President Donald Trump, launched a new website this week.

9.8 out of 10 based on 74 ratings

133 comments to China “copied its way” to economic power to put it (too) politely

  • #
    Pauly

    The Chinese government has also had an active program of sending its undergraduate, postgraduate and senior academics to study at all the “best” tertiary institutions around the world. A few have been caught in attempting the theft of information not belonging to them (ie spies), but the vast majority are their simply to learn the latest and greatest ideas, and then return to China to continue their academic work.

    One area that China has focused on is supercomputing. They have consistently been able to hold the majority of top ten and top twenty supercomputers in the world for the last few years. Supercomputers accelerate research and innovation in many fields, but you don’t see the Chinese wasting supercomputer effort on failed climate models.

    Bottom line: don’t be fooled that it’s only about copying.

    Corollary: don’t advocate capitalism, market economics and wealth creation, and then complain about competition.

    The key is that China’s economy remains centrally directed, and so is not truly creative and flexible. And a hard look at who is getting wealthy in China, mapped to the key positions held at the very senior levels of the CCP shows that the are recreating the mandarin dynasties of their past. Perhaps sowing their own future failure?

    380

  • #
    Fuel Filter

    Yup.

    We here in America have long been “Tech Raped” by them. Going back to that paragon of virtue, Bill Clinton. And, to be sure, prior to him, but he and the Democrats enshrined it as a matter of course.

    So, ALL those gains were stolen (along with the multi-pronged economic rip-offs of our money, such as it is) to build the CCP as it is today. All on the backs of American taxpayers.

    I do so hate Democrats. They sully everything they touch. And that’s why we can’t have nice things anymore.

    461

    • #
      OldOzzie

      FF – this joke from Comments on a ZeroHedge Article sums up America’s Position today

      Joe and Kamala are seated together at a nice restaurant and the waiter comes over to take their orders:

      He says to MS Harris, “Good evening MS Vice president. Have you decided on an entrée?”

      “Yes,” she replies. “I’ll have the New York strip, medium rare.”

      “Very good,” says the waiter. “And for the vegetable?”

      She answers, “Oh! He’ll have the same!”

      390

    • #

      “We here in America have long been “Tech Raped” by them.”

      They’ve even stolen some of my technology which still is likely a part of the Chinese firewall.

      70

  • #
    Klem

    This is why we need to put China in our past and move on to India. India is a democracy, they speak English, they don’t hate the West and they don’t round up entire families and make them disappear.

    Its time to close the chapter on China.

    532

    • #

      And, via Modi, they are fully against the one WORLD GOVERNMENT ideology.
      I suggest looking up President Trump’s visit, over 200k in a packed house, numerous standing ovations.
      ( They even played “Macho Man” when President Trump walked in.

      Donald Trump was winning, and in a big way against the globalists. They had to remove him.

      520

    • #
      Dennis

      As you probably know, ever since Brexit became a possibility the UK Government has been discussing revival of the Commonwealth of Nations closer economic and defence relationships. Trade dropped when the UK signed up to the EU (was EEU), and upset many or most Commonwealth members.

      However, looking forward as we should, a Commonwealth trading group with Japan and USA expressing interest in joining would/will be a very strong community.,

      Recently, POTUS Trump, the Quadrilateral defence agreement was revived between United Stated of America, India, Japan and Australia, for obvious defensive reasons and purposes, Australia already being an important Base for US Military, and intelligence gathering Pine Gap NT Base owned by the US for many decades.

      India is not only a UK political system country, English spoken widely, significant numbers of well educated people, but with a growing consumer market of millions of the over one billion population. And in Australia a significant community of migrants from India spanning back to the colonial years here and British Empire, now Commonwealth.

      160

    • #
      Deano

      Yes totally with you on India Klem.
      This is a golden opportunity to support India while we can. Loads of intelligent people willing to learn and more attuned to creativity than the mainland Chinese who have had any hopes of thinking differently terrified out of them. And I’d like ‘our’ ABC to start fairly reporting on India. For several years now, the ABC have portrayed India as nothing but a filthy swamp of sexual assaults and poverty.

      They have their own successful space program and are developing their own military stealth fighter in cooperation with the western technology companies rather than using blatant theft.

      10

  • #
    John R Smith

    They may have Gain of Functioned their way to world domination.

    200

  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    Form follows function, why reinvent the wheel.

    Really what did you expect?

    The Japanese pioneered the concept of reverse engineering, and then continues improvement

    In the meantime the West played games with patent law, and dropped the ball on innovation and education

    This is what an empire in decline looks like

    1723

    • #
      Pauly

      If you read Deming’s biography, you will learn that Japan bankrupted its economy during WWII, leaving ordinary Japanese starving and jobless at the end of it. Japan’s recovery was supported by the US, with many individuals choosing to help them rebuild, much like the Marshall Plan did for Europe.

      It wasn’t a game. It was compassion. And a growing Japan did not damage the growth in the US.

      410

      • #
        Dave in the States

        There is no greater juxtaposition than post war Japan and China under Mao. Talk about reinventing the wheel, why do we not learn the lessons from history? It’s like ground hog day with socialism.

        10

    • #
      YallaYPoora Kid

      The US did not move all their manufacturing to Japan but rather supported the rebuild of the Japanese economy.

      China is significantly different in that firstly any company wanting to make business (supply projects) in China had to hand over the proprietary manufacturing details to the CCP. Until recently China did not recognise any patent laws outside China.
      The ‘West’ in their wisdom (not) moved the majority of their manufacturing capability to China and put their home workforce out of work and marginalised the productivity and capability of their home manufacture if not closed it altogether. This gave China the newest factories and best manufacturing technology possible while home factories were becoming dated. It also made the ‘West’ dependent on Chinese manufacture and supply of everyday items where the tap can be turned off or slowed at any time by order of the CCP.

      The amazing thing is that this was all done with intent by the ‘West’ and new see where we are.

      380

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        What a load!
        No one forced any company to manufacture in China, did they.
        No one forced any company to sell to China, did they?
        No one forced anyone to buy from China, did they?
        No one forced any western company to close down, did they?
        No one supported local manufacturing in western countries, Did they?

        But blame china.

        just like blaming your little brother when you ate all the lollies

        228

        • #
          YallaYPoora Kid

          You are being a little sensitive. All I commented about was the different context between Japan and China.

          In the case of China the West themselves caused the situation by agreeing to actions under the LIma Declaration. Look it up yourself.

          Has nothing to do with blaming China however China is a at fault for not cooperating with and recognising international trade practices. For a country which wants to be a world leader it is a bad player.

          211

        • #
          Sceptical Sam

          That sounds like a cracker Peter. However, it is also a load (as you put it). The difference is that your load is going in the opposite direction; ie left.

          Why did western manufacturers go to China?

          Answer:

          1. Left-wing unionised feather-bedding and uncompetitive rates of pay undermined competitiveness. Union “bloody-mindedness” drove up the cost of labour. This was supported by government wage-fixing and industrial relations arrangements that paid scant attention to the downstream affects on productivity and employment.

          2. Left leaning governments over-regulated western economies; green and red tape slowly strangled the capacity of western industry to compete, so industry transferred operations to lower cost locations – China in particular.

          3. Other input costs also increased. The cost of land, construction, power (energy), transaction costs and so on, increased; all of which reduced the return on capital employed in western economies. Capital is footloose. The left have never understood that (or accepted it). The capital and the entrepreneurial spirit accordingly went elsewhere.

          We now see the Australian Labor Party thinking it can turn this around by setting aside a $15 billion manufacturing development fund as it runs into the next election. That’ll be more taxpayer money wasted. However, to make matters worse, the idiot Labor Party proposes to arrange for the superannuation funds to match the $15 billion. That workers’ money wasted.

          Labor has never understood how its policies were responsible for the decline in Australian manufacturing. It thinks it’s to do with capital. Idiots. The effect of its stupid policies is that private capital leaves. It’s footloose. Capital is not the cause of the decline; it’s the effect. The world is awash with capital looking for a reasonable return on equity.

          181

          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            The point is Mr Sam, no one forced them to go to china, and everyone purchased what they produced.

            In Australia and the USA, unionisation is at historic lows, in case you hadn’t noticed

            Red and green tape, how did that stop Holden (massive subsidies from the federal gov) in Australia or GM ( which is owned by the Chinese now)

            What you are saying is that price is the only rule, and therefore the cheapest producer wins.

            So all China did was offer low cost production and transport facilities.

            You, with your purchasing choices did the rest

            116

            • #

              Peter, and where was the media with it’s “Boycott Slave Labor China” campaign? Hasn’t started yet.

              Where was Greenpeace? Or the Unions? Our academics? Or either political party?

              Yes, everyone likes “cheap stuff” and freely bought the cheaper product, but most people had no idea what was really going on in China. Our ABC is still pretending Biden’s efforts to “rebuild alliances” is not the same as “putting America Second”. Taking the side of the CCP?

              The geniuses in charge kept saying “globalism is good” as if it were fair for Western workers to lose their jobs to slave labor overseas, and fair for our companies to lose their products to mimics who had no respect for patent laws. Is it fair (or just stupid) to compete with the cheap coal fired power the West invented then gave away and sabotaged on it’s own soil? Do the unions/ABC/Labor Party ever utter a peep to defend Australian workers?

              The coward media were not going to mention that.

              All’s fair in love and war, but who knew it was war? The CCP took advantage of our greed, vanity, and goodwill. But who on our side helped the CCP?

              Explain to me again why taxpayers fund the ABC and University Academics?

              Or why workers pay Union apparatchiks on high wages?

              It’s true Labor rates in the West drove Western factories out of production. But do we set any bar at all on ethical purchases? If we are willing to buy from slave labor forced camps why wouldn’t that kind of production take over the world? Can paid labor compete? And perhaps it doesn’t take a government tariff or ban on slave labor products, but if it was a part of our national conversation, the grassroots boycott could arise on its own.

              Keeping the people ignorant is aiding and abetting the slavers. If someone wanted to buy from non-forced-labor-factories what label can they look for? Who is demanding that China allow inspections and free speech of workers?

              260

              • #
                Peter Fitzroy

                No Jo Nova, all you have here are assertions.

                The pont remains that all you care about is price. You could not give a rat’s about the slave labour when you buy your cotton on t-shirt, your k-mart kitchen appliance, or your target crockery.

                Everyone is complicit here (including me). We live in a market economy, no one is forced to buy slave made goods, but we all do. And the reason is simple – it’s price.

                Since you have little skill in internet searches
                try this search: sustainable and ethical clothing or sustainable and ethical furniture or anything really.

                But I know that all you, and most who post here, care about is price, so save me the pretend outrage.

                019

              • #

                Peter, I hit a nerve eh?

                And since you do not even protest the use of slaves, nor supply any method of protest, transparency, or even the slightest information related to such, we shall assume you come here seeking approval for your own selfish unethical greed while we deplorables discuss ways to help those who suffer.

                Is that why you bristle so grumpily and make up obviously fake assertions about me? You want me to say “OK Peter, it’s fine to benefit from Uighur slavery?”

                Or are you a fan of the CCP and your role here is to defend them?

                Methinks your pretend outrage at our pretend rage, as you say, reflects more on you than on us. Rage away eh?

                110

              • #
                Peter Fitzroy

                Jo – I am saying that in a market economy it is about price, I agree that I am as complicit as you are. No one is forcing any of us to buy any particular product.
                I gave you the information to find ethical and sustainable products, nat a peep
                As to the fake assertions, what are you talking about.
                You want coal to continue as the main power source, and a big part of that is the price, I seem to remember that recently you are saying that the brown coal of Victoria provides the cheapest power, ignoring the pollution produced.

                I admit that I find a lot to admire like the way it has moved all of its population out of poverty, or the number of patents, the civil engineering, it health and education. I will remain sceptical about Uighur slavery, as indeed I would suggest you do. So far the only confirmation has come from disaffected Uighurs who are not in the country.

                I’m not outraged, more disappointed that you felt that you had to bring

                Explain to me again why taxpayers fund the ABC and University Academics?

                Or why workers pay Union apparatchiks on high wages? as that has anything to do with China.

                I must have hit a nerve thought 🙂

                06

              • #

                “I am as complicit as you are”.

                Says Peter who has no idea what I buy.
                I’m using my blog to suggest we ought be concerned. What are you doing? Making excuses to doubt the many reports from Uighur people, even though you know the CCP censor reports from within China. How else would we hear about it?

                And belatedly you pretend to care about ethical purchases with the mere 2 second suggestion of a possible Google search that you apparently have not done, even less “shopped at”.

                Lecture on, o great defender of the Communist Party.

                80

              • #
                Leo Morgan

                I doubt anyone will read this, but if they do, it is a response to Peter at 5.1.2.4 , which doesn’t have a ‘reply’ button. In that post Peter claims that price is all.

                Perhaps robots would behave as if price is the only thing that matters in the marketplace.
                Human beings don’t.
                We balance price with multiple other things.

                For example, we value time and certainty more than price, which is why unregulated markets have largely abandoned the barter system. This is despite the fact that either of the parties might be able to get a better price using barter.

                We pay higher prices for convenience, spending dollars for coffees in the City rather than cents for coffees at home.

                We pay higher prices for aesthetics. The iPhone boomed and the Microsoft phone tanked.

                We prioritise appropriate quality. Sometimes we’ll pay more for disposable items, and other times for long-life ones.

                We’ll judge on intangibles. We buy tickets to movies based on our tastes and values, not just price. My Mum pays more for Andre Rieu movies than I do for Marvel Movies whereas I would do the opposite.

                We include an assessment of how much we need something in our consideration of what price we’ll pay, not just “What is the lowest price?”. Petrol might be on special, but if the tank is full, we’ll pass it by.

                We’ll buy Australian to support our neighbours, but only if we know it.
                Some will pay a premium for recycled products whereas others want a discount.
                We’ll pay above the odds if we expect the price to go up in the near future, and less so if we expect it to go down.

                We pay according to our religious convictions- more for certified Halal or Kosher products if we’re believers, and less if we are not.

                We pay according to scarcity and available alternatives.
                We pay according to innovation and social cachet.

                Price is an important component of our market behaviour. If it’s too high, we can’t buy. If it’s too low, suppliers can’t or won’t make it. But it’s far from the only thing. In my abundant reading of economic books, I’ve recently read three that refer to ‘new economics’ implying that there’s more to our economic behaviour than price. The thing about those books is that they failed to realise that they’re refuting a man of straw, since classical economics never made the mistake that price was the only thing.

                Fully understanding the way that the unregulated market balances all these competing impulses, urges needs and resources is an epiphany that resembles seeing a mate in four. It’s so impressive that hardened materialists still refer to the “magic” of the free market as there’s no other metaphor that does it justice.

                20

            • #
              Sceptical Sam

              Peter, as usual you have the cart before the horse.

              What you are saying is that price is the only rule, and therefore the cheapest producer wins.

              I’m not saying that at all. That’s what you’re proposing. And it’s wrong.

              The low prices from China didn’t cause the decline in Australian manufactures. The flight of footloose capital did. And, that was driven by the unsustainably high wage rates in Australia, the green and red tape, the high energy costs and so on, as I’ve explained to you.

              Even artificially high tariffs couldn’t save Australian manufacturers. The tariffs merely slowed the rate of decline. They also removed the incentive to improve quality and productivity. Because of the feather-bedding, the high labour wage rates, the obstructiveness of the unionised workforce in the manufacturing sector, along with the other input cost disadvantages that flowed through from the socialist industry policy, the manufacturers did what any rational business person would do. They packed up shop and shifted their resources elsewhere.

              Not even the massive subsidy (in addition to the tariffs) of the car industry, for example, could prevent that sector from failing. By one calculation the government subsidy amounted to some $80,00 pa for each and every employee in the car sector at the end of the rort. It made no difference. The quality of the product was appalling. The unions resisted quality and productivity improvements. Friday cars became Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday cars as well.

              Quality, reliability, service support then, lastly, price, is the probable order of the decision making process. Why do the miners and the farmers and all those people who travel about in country Australia buy Toyota predominately? Because they are quality, reliable vehicles that don’t break down, backed up with excellent service, and supported with spare-parts and highly skilled and trained mechanics all around the country. They’re not the cheapest, but they’re the best tool for the job. Price is not the predominant driver of demand for that brand of vehicle.

              You can stick with your lefty views for as long as you like. What you’ll find is that you’ll start to wonder why things don’t work out as you think they should. The answer lies in your blind insistence that you and your ideology has it all taped. It hasn’t.

              90

              • #
                Peter Fitzroy

                srsly? everything you say comes back to price.

                05

              • #
                Sceptical Sam

                Peter says:

                srsly? everything you say comes back to price.

                In a sense that’s half right, Peter.

                1. The price of Australian labour was internationally uncompetitive;

                2. The price that of union obstruction and strikes in Australia was internationally uncompetitive;

                3. the price of poor quality, shoddy workmanship was internationally uncompetitive

                4. the price of government green and red tape was internationally uncompetitive;

                5. the price that of capital in the Australian economy was internationally uncompetitive;

                6. the price that had to be paid for the transactional costs was internationally uncompetitive; and finally,

                7. the price of energy was internationally uncompetitive.

                No level of tariffs or government subsidy was going to fix those issues in the medium to long term. Investors departed. They took their entrepreneurial skills and capital to more conducive locations. If Australian manufacturers were going to have to put up with highly priced, poor quality, shoddy workmanship then they might as well get the benefits of those products being manufactured at a lower cost. After all, you don’t go broke by making a profit, do you?

                So, one of those locations that they went to was China. China, which has no qualms about the exploitation of labour (its people), the exploitation of the environment, the exploitation of stolen IP, and the exploitation of the minorities including the Uigher and Falun Gong as slave labour. An economy that manipulates its exchange rate and subsidises its industry. An economy that imposes tariffs as a political tool contrary to the protocols of the WTO. Similarly, it chooses to ignore the international rule of law, both of the sea and land. It was admitted to the World Trade Organisation under false pretences. It chooses to take advantage of the benefits that flow from that membership, while refusing to abide by any part that may be adverse to its interests. Ditto, the United Nations.

                However, the west is starting to wake up. China’s free ride is approaching its use-by-date.

                India here we come.

                50

            • #
              Kevin kilty

              For goods made overseas, the bottom line is not “low price” but value. For overseas labor, it is not “cheapest” but rather more productive. These are more complex concepts.

              30

        • #
          R.B.

          Great reply to an argument that wasn’t made.

          The modern academic.

          00

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        Yes Pauly, but I was talking about the 90’s when for example, the USA made Japanese car manufacturers build their vehicles in the USA and utilising supply chains from mexico and canada. Did the USA brands learn and improve? No they did not.

        117

        • #
          Pauly

          Peter,
          Clearly you are not a student of history. I was living in Ohio in the early 90s, and actually visited one of these vehicle production plants. Firstly, US car manufacturers were not making a profit, and were closing many plants. The Japanese (Honda and Toyota) and Europeans (VW in particular) purchased these, refurbished them, and re-employed the local auto workers. Despite the same union rules, and the same workers, both were able to produce quality vehicles and make a profit, dispelling the myth that Japanese auto manufacturing could only work in Japan, with the Japanese culture, work ethic, and “jobs for life” employment policy.

          The problem was not the Japanese or European owners. But I do agree with you that US car manufacturers never learnt the key lessons. That was exemplified during the GFC when the Obama administration paid US car manufacturers billions in subsidies to keep them afloat.

          Tariff barriers and subsidies are both signs of an inefficient industry. Elon Musk continues that tradition.

          160

        • #
      • #
        Dennis

        The allies forced the major business empires in Japan to be broken up and operated as seperate entities.

        The clever Japanese then formed Trading Companies, like Sumitomo Shoji, Mitsui and others to do the export sales and marketing for those businesses.

        31

        • #
          David

          Dennis, it’s more complicated than that. The Japanese companies being very insular, generally were not practised in western ways and had poor English skills. The trading companies exploited this and developed western ways and good English. Each needed the other.

          30

          • #
            Dennis

            I understand, I worked for a Japanese Trading Company in Australia, one of my very early employment positions.

            00

  • #
    Guy Leech

    I agree that Chinese businesses, especially manufacturing businesses, have copied technology developed in other countries but many businesses do this if they can. I was taught in the 1980s at business school that Japanese businesses did just the same in the 1950s & 1960s, but also innovated, especially in quality control in manufacturing processes so that their products went from being perceived as shoddy to being reliable and well made.

    Matt Ridley argues in his latest book “How Innovation Works” that legal IP protection, i.e. the granting of short term monopolies via patents, may not be necessary for innovation to take place and therefore not in the interests of the majority of consumers or producers. Consumers worldwide have certainly benefited from greater supplies of manufactured goods at lower costs than would have been available had Chinese businesses not “plagiarised” technology.

    The free rider problem is a only a problem if one subscribes to the view that legislative protection of monopolies is a good thing, and given the generally free market views of our hostess here, I would speculate she might not actually support that.

    101

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      The first paragraph was right on target ; great.

      Then it changed course for the last two.

      The thing about Matt Ridley and our “hostess”?; is he advocating that we don’t need any rules of conduct?

      60

      • #

        What’s the worst system of all — one where people think we have patent laws and protection but we only have selective enforcement.

        I’m open to debate on patents. Perhaps we are better off without them, but if we do get rid of them, do it transparently, officially, and so everyone plays by the same rules.

        My main argument now is on transparency. We don’t know which factories in China are the good ones. And if the CCP won’t allow free speech, how will we ever know?

        If Western customers never find out and don’t have alternate suppliers to choose how could legal fair factories in Poland, say, compete?

        Did Japan compete by herding up minorities/religious groups in forced labor camps?

        80

        • #
          Sceptical Sam

          There are some who used to say that the Chinese will respect the Patent laws when they, the Chinese, have a critical mass of patents that they need to protect. When the west starts stealing these Chinese patents, the Chinese may finally act according to the international protocols.

          Until that time, they’re nought but pirates.

          40

    • #
      Tel

      Yup. [to KK @#6.1 is Matt R “advocating that we don’t need any rules of conduct?”. – J]

      And when these United States were young, they did the same thing to old Europe.

      100

      • #
        Kalm Keith

        🙂

        Guy was discussing “legislative protection of monopolies is a good thing”.

        The main point we were considering was patents, that different to monopolies.

        I think patents, which are by definition, Brilliant concepts, deserve protection; but monopolies should be left to compete rather than enjoy government boosting.

        KK

        10

      • #
        Kevin kilty

        Great point and made me laugh. I have told stories to my children about how people in the U.S. fleeced Europeans repeatedly over railroads, cattle ranches, and mines.

        00

      • #
        Tel

        I was taught in the 1980s at business school that Japanese businesses did just the same in the 1950s & 1960s, but also innovated, especially in quality control in manufacturing processes so that their products went from being perceived as shoddy to being reliable and well made.

        For clarification, that’s the quote I was agreeing with.

        https://www.history.com/news/industrial-revolution-spies-europe

        A reasonable quick outline of the early industrial growth in the USA … but the question of copying is much larger than that. Copying is a “natural” activity in as much as every child learns by copying adults around them, all of biology is based on copying at the molecular level. Without copying we would not be alive at all … the very concept of life as we know it would not be possible.

        The early Roman civilization copied most of their initial technology from the Greeks, as they expanded they were eclectic and incorporated new ideas they discovered. The Romans found themselves short of bronze because the Greek city states had long held monopoly control over the Tin and Copper trade, but the Romans redeployed their metalsmiths to a new and promising material: steel.

        When the Jurchen Jin Dynasty (what is now Northern China) attempted to intimidate Genghis Khan (in retrospect, possibly not the smartest move) the Jurchen deployed feared fire weapons in the inevitable war that followed. After the Jurchen struggled against the Mongolians, and the war dragged on, the Song Dynasty (Southern Han Chinese) took the opportunity to settle some old scores and pincer attack the Jurchen ensuring Mongolian victory.

        The Mongolians under Ögedei Khan rapidly conquered the Korean peninsula and quickly became adept in the use of the same fire weapons they had previously faced off against. This was of great assistance to them in their eventual conquest of the Southern Song Dynasty, which took another generation to complete.

        Not many people know that the American Revolution was supplied by King Louis XVI of France, secretly shipping thousands of Model 1766 Charleville muskets which caught the British quite by surprise when they discovered how well-armed George Washington’s men turned out to be. The first thing the Americans did was copy these muskets and you will notice that the Model 1795 Springfield Musket looks surprisingly similar. The Americans returned the favour to the French by supplying the French revolutionaries who then guillotined King Louis XVI.

        The copying continued though … in Russia after WWII they were acutely aware of their lack of decent weaponry and using the basic design of captured Sturmgewehr 44 rifle, plus some mechanisms from the American M1 Garand, they came up with the AK47 … probably a contender for the most mass produced weapon in human history (most of them unlicensed, but that’s Communism for you). The Americans also borrowed from the Sturmgewehr 44 and came up with the M14 which ended up facing AK47 rifles during the Vietnam War, only to discover that the Germans had been right all along … a lighter, more maneuverable assault rifle was better in most combat situations than the heavier more powerful battle rifle. The Americans switched to the M16 / AR-15 family of rifles which would be the other contender for most mass produced weapon in human history … although the M14 still gets used.

        The moral is, what goes around comes around … not always for the better, but it just happens anyhow.

        20

  • #
    Lance

    In 1984, I worked at a US Air Force Base. We had a Static Display for Memorial Day weekend holiday during which time civilians were allowed to enter the base and see various aircraft up close.

    We had to eject a Chinese Diplomatic group from the base because they were caught physically filing off metal samples from different aircraft, taking interior photographs of the electronics even though photography was prohibited. It was a political schitt storm, but had to be done.

    The CCP has been at this a long, long, time.

    450

    • #
      David Maddison

      I think Obama was responsible for a lot of technology transfer of intellectual property and military secrets from the US to the Chicomms through slack or zero enforcement against espionage and various “cooperation” programs.

      251

    • #
      Dennis

      The Australian manufacturing company that I managed had a new machinery factory at the rear of the older buildings containing an advanced production line (four) designed in house by our engineering people and made by a machinery company to our requirements.

      There were three entrance gates to the site across the frontage, and too access the new factory building involved a rather long walk along a driveway. One lunch break some employees noticed men of Asian appearance entering the new factory from the driveway and phoned the office, but the men realised they had been discovered and ran back to their car in the street. They were Chinese according to our Asian factory employees. And before they left they quickly took some pictures of the machines, probably not in enough of the detail that they were seeking.

      100

      • #
        Sceptical Sam

        That reminds me of that old BHP saw.

        Gate security at BHP Port Kembla was always pretty strict. However, not too smart. After a shortage of wheelbarrows became apparent security finally discovered what was happening.

        At the end of the shift and on bundying off, some blokes would take a wheelbarrow out the gate loaded with lawn clippings or the like. Security would check through the clippings and, finding nothing hidden, let him pass. Eventually, they woke up.

        BHP got out of steel making. Took its capital and put it to more efficient uses.

        20

    • #
      Deano

      Consider this, our universities carry out a lot of research in conjunction with private industry – an ideal place for stealing new designs and technology. But the same universities are riven with woke PC culture that punishes perfectly warranted criticisms when they target someone in a protected category. So when a white, male heterosexual lab tech notices some female Chinese students copying files they have no right to access, he’s the one likely to get in trouble should he report it.
      No wonder the CCP continues to eagerly encourage their students into our uni’s.

      10

  • #
    Penguinite

    At least DJT is back on the air with his MAGA-phone:-)) https://www.45office.com/thank-you/contact.

    280

  • #
    Jonesy

    Yep, the Chinese copy…and just like multiple copies of copies of a vhs video…the product is inferior. First hand inspection of chinese built heavy trucks show that, yes, they copy European manufacturers closesly but still fail to make them fit for purpose.

    The scary issue is we are flooded with chinese manufactured steel products in critical applications. No standards, no guarantees!

    230

    • #
      el gordo

      This story is five years old and I assume that Australia has stopped importing cheap and nasty steel.

      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-17/safety-warning-over-fabricated-chinese-steel/6949506

      112

      • #
        Just Thinkin'

        Nup. We still import cheap and nasty china steel.

        It shows up in construction sites all the time.
        This is supply cost.

        Repair and replacement costs come from a different budget.
        So, the people of that country pay and pay and pay and pay.

        You just hope that you aren’t anywhere near when parts fail.

        70

      • #
        robert rosicka

        Nothing new even back in 2015 el gordo, I did a DLI welding ticket 30 years ago and every piece of metal had to be scanned for internal cracks and impurities.
        Chinese steel is brittle and full of impurities.

        230

        • #
          Ronin

          Look at the recent debacle surrounding the Patrol boats, dodgy CCP aluminium plate, some had to be removed from already built ships.
          You have to ask yourself what are we doing using cheap crap product in Australian built ships.

          70

      • #
        Dave

        El Gordo,

        Bluescope steel is still made in Australia but plently comes from Asia now!

        They changed their brand about 10 years ago! Now look at this image!

        It used to say Australian Made Steel by Bluescope!

        China has huge Bluescope factories!

        30

      • #
        MP

        Assume…..Ass/u/me

        00

    • #
      RickWill

      Take a look at the desk in front of you or wherever you are doing your blogging. Look at every item and identify its place of manufacture. Then take at look at all the labels on the clothing you are wearing. Most stuff is manufactured in China these days.

      About 12 years ago I did separate analysis of steelworks. One was in Taiwan and the other in the USA. The Taiwan smelter was almost 10 times the labour productivity of the US plant. The US plant was surviving by making specialty alloys that commanded a high price and no doubt contributed to the labour requirement. However the Taiwan plant was modern and massive whereas the US plant was olden tired.

      Each manufacturing centre has been built on the learnings from the previous centre. A big benefit for Germany was basically starting from scratch post WW2.

      I consider my life has benefited in the last two decades from China becoming a manufacturing centre. Australia has ridden the coat tails of the Chinese manufacturing prowess by providing some key resources. Australia enjoys a huge trade surplus with China. That benefits all Australians. It allows the country to afford all the goodies that fill a modern home and extravagances like wind and solar power without actually having to learn how to make the components.

      75

      • #
        Ronin

        While the West occupies itself with racism, gay rights, womens rights, BLM, immigrants, muslim hate and a dozen other diversions, the Chinese just get on with making the most of their ‘acquired’ technology, undercutting and killing off competition, acquiring territory and generally terrorizing their near neighbours.

        30

    • #
      Dennis

      Like “stainless steel” screws corroding after four months in the weather, at my place, fixing timber palings to an enclosure.

      120

    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      Jonesy,

      There is an upside. 🙂

      China’s war machine is made with the same steel. And welded by the same welders.

      Boom, boom.

      10

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    Already sent my message of thanks to President Trump via his new website.
    Had to claim the pacific area as part of my address, but noted I was in Australia and had dome that.

    I received a general reply.

    201

  • #

    Reading the article, my first thought was that we knew all this years ago.

    My second thought was that the ruling elite in many western countries are either naive , feathering their own nests or are ideologically aligned with the Chinese.

    Whatever, they have exhibited treachery against their own people and western culture.

    310

    • #
      Just Thinkin'

      When you have Globalist Grubbnmnts that pretend to be
      otherwise, therein lies the problem.

      10

      • #

        But years ago, were Chinese professors openly bragging about the theft?

        50

        • #
          Just Thinkin'

          Jo, we have the same problem that the USA had before Mr. Trump
          started reversing things. All their governments were not for
          the American people. They were Globalists, but never known by that name.
          They had from 1913 to bring all of their changes in, bit by bit.
          Now Mr Biden is there they are RUSHING to reverse Mr. Trumps changes.
          Not taking ages like before, but in a few months. And, the people
          of America are waking up. Unfortunately, unless the we have someone in
          Australia that can reverse our governments Globalist tendencies, we are
          stuffed. 97% of people don’t realise what has happened.
          And our MSM don’t help. We have a few voices but they get drowned out.
          Mr. Morrison is letting the Premiers do his dirty work. He is NOT for Australians.
          He talks the talk, but there are no real actions.
          GOD, help Australia.
          Rant over.

          30

        • #
          tonyb

          Jo

          My son went to Cambridge University. We went to visit him several times and we commented about the number of Chinese students there including doing research in the Cavendish laboratory and other high tech research centres.

          It was quite obvious what they were doing and if I as a casual visitor could tell and the students studying with them knew then the Authorities were turning a blind eye or more likely accepting funds for research projects. This was a decade ago.

          30

          • #

            I’m sure it’s true tonyb, my point was only that the wheel has turned, and what was a weakly covered secret is now open advertising.

            It’s a notch up in hostility.

            “Not even pretending anymore”

            50

            • #
              Deano

              Gangsters use the same technique when they ‘own the town’.

              When some of Big Al’s boys without disguises casually stroll into a packed restaurant and shoot dead a competitor in front of everyone then amble out looking smugly like they’ve just won at poker, you know there’s no point calling the police!

              10

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      Yes,
      “feathering their own nests” is an appropriate description.

      The funny thing that when they are found out, nothing is done to punish and discourage future “feathering”.

      It just goes on and on and so we find that President Xi now has a holiday island on the east coast of our formerly independent nation.

      And when things get too hot at home, the featherers go off to New York.

      90

  • #

    There was a lot of worry about Japan, Inc. similarly four decades ago, and look where they are now. And Japan had the advantage of a reasonably democratic form of government. I have two comments about fears of China, Inc.

    First, I spent 23 years as an industrial contractor and consultant, and during all that time I would teach mathematics or engineering, or science courses at local colleges. Then I spent 20 years as a full time academic. I have had 5,000+ students. The Chinese, while being reasonably good students, were not super-persons. I was often surprised by the gap between the formal ways they approached problems (probably from having had a formal/theoretical education), and the rough and approximate methods of pounding out solutions to real problems — entreprenuerial/applied problem-solving. Lots of people are good at the latter, and I think it is a fundamental element to growing wealth and employment.

    Second, people almost always make their own problems. I have dozens of examples of this, but I am going to mention an issue pertinent to the U.S. in particular. We have spent decades in the U.S. raising unnecessary costs of everything we do, and we seem prepared to continue doing this until we are truly and thoroughly non-competitive. We do this because Americans, and both political parties although one is worse, are convinced that a crushing burden of laws and regulations requiring bloated bureacracies (HR is a good example in the private economy) will eventually make everything fair. The rent-seeking and corruption this generates is a drag on competitiveness.

    There are problems to solve, always, but our government entities have generally settled on regulating heavily, which leads to raising taxes for the bureacracy involved, money to be transferred to the beneficiaries (NGOs go here too), internal compliance people required within business, filling out mountains of compliance and data gathering forms, and an effort by the beneficiaries to make sure the problem is never solved followed by legal wrangling and sue and settle, finally far too much money spent on political campaigns and electioneering, including fraud.

    This is no way to stay ahead.

    300

    • #
      Furiously curious

      3 words — too many lawyers.

      211

    • #
      Binny Pegler

      The Mandarins eventually brought China down by fighting ‘Over China’ instead of ‘For China’.
      Right now the bulk of Western politicians are doing the exact same thing.

      160

    • #
      RickWill

      The key economic issue with Japan and now China is that they are growing old. Both are racist societies that limit immigration and both now have a standard of living that resists limits fertility rate – essentially well educated women. So they are populations in decline (Japan in decline since 2010) or near decline (China just making replacement) and that results in steadily increasing average age. China WILL grow old before growing wealthy. There is simply not enough capacity globally to support a wealthy lifestyle in China. The only hope is to tap the potential growth in Africa. With regard to wealth, Taiwan is actually ahead of Japan but China a long way behind.

      71

      • #
        WXcycles

        They’re still on $8,300 GDP per capita – just imagine the wealth disparity level in that number. How long until Dear Father Xi nationalizes the extravagant wealth and assets of the few in national emergency decree to placate the impoverished for the good of internal stability, and get back to core CCP values?

        Should be interesting.

        30

      • #
        Lucky

        RickWill refers to the (apparent?) conflict between aging and productivity. Consider, China is reducing its aged population by virology. It is probably deliberate.

        10

  • #
    DonK31

    They plagiarized the art of plagiarism from Joe Biden.

    180

  • #
    TedM

    It is China’s version of the 3 R’s. Rob, Replicate, Replace. Steal the technology, copy it and produce at a cost that undersells the owner of that technology, when that owner collapses, replace them.

    210

  • #
    Neville

    This is a very old story and I’ve been telling friends about this for years.
    But a number of stupid lefties still think it is just nasty and racist to even suggest such a thing.
    But even the Poms didn’t hold on to the Ind Rev forever, although they did steal a march on the rest of the world for a long time.
    But anyone who trusts the CCP at all is just a fool waiting to be ravished and smashed.

    220

  • #
    Geoffrey Williams

    People the world over and throuhout history have copied technology discovered by others. How else has civilization grown, think of the the iron age, the wheel, fire, the axe, the bow and arrow and so on etc etc.
    The idea that someone can ‘invent and patent’ goes back hundreds of years. Of course patents have fixed lifetimes and so eventually expire. But from my observations if two items are offered for sale, one the original version and the other a cheaper copied version, then most people will choose the latter.
    For at least 20 years or so, we in the west have happily purchased the chineese products made with copied technology and mass produced with cheap labour. These have improved our lives, and I have no complaints . .
    GeoffW

    37

  • #
    Binny Pegler

    It’s a lot easier to fill in a hole, than it is to build a mound.
    China will find that ‘catching up’ was a LOT easier than ‘over taking’
    Over taking the west will require the sort of free independent thinking, the CCP simply can’t allow.
    They have already let that particular genie out of the bottle. Now their hands are full trying to get it back in.
    Why do you think there is a total media blackout happening right now?

    210

    • #
      Gary Simpson

      Agreed. There is a hell of a lot of free independent thinking going on in Hong Kong, due to a hundred years of western influence. Now just look at how the chicomms are dealing with that.

      20

  • #
    Simon B

    Why would this surprise anyone? Australian Universities and researchers have been ‘collaborating’ for a decade or more with so much of their data and findings held in the Chinese CCP laboratories. They weren’t doing it to allow foreign researchers to maximise their earning potential! Useful idiots!

    130

  • #
    William Astley

    I have an issue that we have are still asleep. What happened in the last decade? Last year?

    China is actively fighting a ‘cold’ war with the US and spending billions and billions of dollars every year, to fight that war. This is not a trade war. The CCP does not ‘follow’, listen to, fear, foreign made ‘rules’. The CCP is implementing a cold war plan. Any Chinese tactic is allowed (like covid, China is the super Covid winner), if it is effective and can keep the war cold.

    The CCP officially hates the US and wants revenge on the British for past evil deeds… like forcing the Chinese to accept British opium and British control of Chinese territory… so the British could get cheap tea. The problem is China has been hating the US for 50 years and the UK for what 100 years. It is too late to make the old hate go away. We are at war. So now China is super powerful and the US has been sabotaged.

    China created the concept of an evil US which must be ‘defeated’ for their people. The CCP and most Chinese think of ‘themselves’ as a ‘race’. To be a member of the CCP is to hate the US and want revenge on the British. It grows as China becomes more powerful.

    https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/physician-scientist-steven-quay-provides-open-letter-response-to-who-report-five-undisputed-facts-support-the-laboratory-origin-of-the-covid-virus-301258582.html

    The purpose of the Open Letter is to help readers of the WHO report understand the five facts that scientists agree on and which support the conclusion that an accidental laboratory-acquired infection was likely responsible for the COVID pandemic.
    The five undisputed facts are:

    • COVID-19 wasn’t smoldering in the community before the epidemic broke out, as was observed with previous coronavirus epidemics.
    • Despite an intense search, neither the COVID virus, nor any close relative, has yet been found in nature, unlike prior natural zoonoses. The closest viral relative is from the laboratories of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, near the epicenter of the first cases.
    • The COVID virus had little genetic diversity at the outset, unlike prior natural zoonoses. It was genetically pure, like the man-made vaccines being rolled out.
    • The COVID virus’s powerful infectious trigger isn’t found anywhere in its related viral group in nature but has been repeatedly inserted into viruses by laboratory scientists, including at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
    • The virus was highly adapted for infection of people from the start, unlike prior natural zoonoses. Growing viruses in humanized mice is a common technique to hone their lethal abilities.

    192

    • #
      el gordo

      There is little doubt they were manufacturing a weapon of mass destruction. Did a lone wolf release Covid into the wet market and is he a hero or villain?

      143

      • #

        Well said William. My only comment relates to this:

        _____
        Despite an intense search, neither the COVID virus, nor any close relative, has yet been found in nature, unlike prior natural zoonoses. The closest viral relative is from the laboratories of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, near the epicenter of the first cases
        _____

        As far as I recall, it’s not fair to call it a “viral relative” as if it was actually a virus. The nearest relative was the theoretical wild bat virus RaTG13 which only exists as letters on a computer in Wuhan, which have many suspicious improbable changes. Even though it was supposedly found years ago. It was not registered until Jan 23 in 2020. For some reason the Wuhan bat lady didn’t bother to publish on this deadly potential pandemic causing bat virus until after the pandemic started. Go figure.

        I wrote this up in May last year. For me, being primarily a genetic scientist by training, this information was and still is the clincher in the evidence trail showing SARS 2 is a lab construct.

        https://joannenova.com.au/2020/05/is-coronavirus-man-made-the-bat-virus-it-evolved-from-appears-to-be-faked/

        If China were dealing with a natural virus in RaTG13, why are there no vials of this virus? Why didn’t they publish sooner? Why are there not the normal pattern of random mutations that are silent that we find everywhere else in nature.?

        130

    • #
      Tilba Tilba

      China is actively fighting a ‘cold’ war with the US and spending billions and billions of dollars every year, to fight that war. This is not a trade war. The CCP does not ‘follow’, listen to, fear, foreign made ‘rules’. The CCP is implementing a cold war plan. Any Chinese tactic is allowed (like covid, China is the super Covid winner), if it is effective and can keep the war cold.

      What is it with the right? This extremely high level of paranoia about China, but they fail totally to be critical of outrageous corporate behaviour at home.

      China is where it is because of 30 years of decision-making and investment by American Capitalism … is there anything hard to understand about that?

      I think for everyone’s personal and political sanity, they give up reading that Epoch Times.

      00

      • #

        Now there’s a CCP talking point…

        “I think for everyone’s personal and political sanity, they give up reading that Epoch Times.”

        This is exactly what the CCP wants you to do.

        20

  • #
    Flok

    I am done with China, they have attempted numerous times to get to our IP. That is all they wanted. They didn’t get it but they gave it a good shot. Zero shame approach and extremely condescending.

    It does represent a long road for manufacturing at larger scale in QLD without compromising the cost of the product and in a long run it will be rewarding on many levels.

    60

  • #
    Dennis

    China – a United Nations backed “developing nation status” member.

    UN Lima Protocol, Whitlam Labor Australia signed that UN Agreement in 1975 and there was no Union Movement opposition, “up the workers”.

    The Agreement covers transfer over time of most, and importantly know-how to produce, manufacturing products made in Australia. And of course loss of Australian jobs and tax revenue source companies in manufacturing industry.

    Then consider many other UN influenced, attacks on member nation sovereignty, such as Agenda 21 – Sustainability, Paris Agreement – emissions reduction, and many others.

    And the winners are: First and foremost China, and other “developing nations”, China even provides them with foreign aid coal fired power stations to support their industries and people.

    90

  • #
    Michel Lasouris

    I hear the sound of a worm turning…….

    50

  • #
    neil

    To an extent this is a cultural issue, what we call industrial espionage some asian cultures call smart business.

    I was working at Holden around 2000 when a Group of Korean Daewoo engineers were march out of the Lang Lang proving not for stealing data on vehicles but walking the roads and taking detailed notes and sketches on all the test facilities. Their plan was to duplicate the facility exactly in Korea. Some years later when GM had full ownership of Daewoo, Holden engineers went to Korea to work and found an exact copy of the Holden emissions laboratory right down to the colour of the paint and location of warning signs.

    The holden engineers were there to help Daewoo develop a local 4cyl engine, when they inspected the prototypes they found they were an exact copy of the engine Holden produced in Port Melbourne and sold to Daewoo. even having the GM logo cast into the engine block. There was no independent thought at all just 100% exact copying.

    91

    • #

      wow… so GM korea copied GM Australia. How funny

      51

      • #
        el gordo

        Yep its the greedy multinationals.

        32

        • #
          Sceptical Sam

          Nope.

          It’s the feather-bedded Australian union shops.

          It’s the idiotic socialist government green and red tape.

          It’s the transactional costs, the energy costs, the taxation imposts.

          The owners of the capital voted with their feet. Footloose. They didn’t cause it. They took the most rational action available to them. They packed their ports and departed.

          Only rabid and delusional lefties blame the “greedy” multinationals.

          The “greedy” were the feather-bedding unions; the socialist governments; the free-riders. The socialists who believed fervently (still do) that 2 + 2 = 5, and that other people’s money is theirs to waste.

          Just like Albo’s $15 billion industry development initiative to be funded by the taxpayer and dollar-for-dollared with the union controlled superannuation funds, in his run up to the next Federal election.

          51

          • #
            Dave in the States

            Exactly right!

            20

          • #
            Tilba Tilba

            Only rabid and delusional lefties blame the “greedy” multinationals.

            No – the rational and analytical blame Capitalism … I appreciate it’s a difficult word for some people.

            It’s not “greedy” multinationals – it is rational corporations (big and small) moving where costs are lower and profits are higher. Australian workers are not going to enter a race to the pathetic bottom with SE Asian labour.

            Maybe you would like them to! LOL.

            I ran a design & print micro-business for some years after early retirement. People could get very very good equivalent product just by sending their Illustrator files to printers in Vietnam, Thailand, and China.

            I survived with the design side, and personal customer service.

            00

  • #
    Ross

    Kevin Rudd (previous prime minister of Australia) was always such a fan of China during his early period in that role. He thought he was very impressive by sometimes talking in mandarin. Went to one of those Climate junkets where the Chinese probably refused to budge on any CO2 emissions agreements. He then famously referred to them as those “little fat f…..rs”. Basically, he got a dose of reality. Trump, really has been the only major political leader with some common sense on this subject. The only way to fight the Chinese in the market place is with tariffs – they hold too many other advantages. Low wages, best technology (which they never researched or developed) and of course having 1 billion people as a ready market is sort of handy as well.

    60

    • #
      Ross

      ….”little rat f….rs”.

      40

    • #
      Tilba Tilba

      Trump, really has been the only major political leader with some common sense on this subject.

      Trump talked a big game, but I don’t think he brought one single job from China, Indonesia, or Mexico – back to Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, etc. In fact, manufacturing job-shedding continued.

      He talked big about Carrier Aircon staying in some place – but six months later they went to Mexico anyway. Big corporations do not care about the frenzy of little political ants scurrying about. Not one bit.

      02

  • #
    el gordo

    Social Credit sounds mundane, George Orwell understands.

    ‘Over the next five years, and likely well beyond, social credit is set to be used as a tool to improve the government’s economic governance capacity and domestic market conditions, as a means of promoting fair competition, strengthening market supervision, and encouraging law-adherence. In the long term, it is clear that social credit fits into the CCP’s grand designs for “data-driven governance” covering all spheres of society.

    ‘What remains unclear is how integrated, far-reaching, and effective this system will be in practice and if, or how soon, we can expect ambitious social credit policy goals to turn into a reality.’ (The Diplomat)

    20

  • #
    george1st:)

    The Chinese did not have to be that clever to fool the woke Westerners who bent over backwards to do ‘the right thing’ .
    Same as they own the UN, IPCC and the WHO .
    Taking advantage in every step they can .

    60

  • #

    “there’s nothing left to replicate”

    The joke is on them.

    00

  • #
    Jim

    I would both agree and disagree with the assertion of intel creating a new paradigm. Did they spy? Yes. And one of the tools of spying is to misinform. The most common is to bribe.
    So how did they convince a company to move their operations there? Capitalism or communism?

    00

    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      So how did they convince a company to move their operations there?

      They didn’t have to.

      The unions and the idiotic policies of the socialist governments of the West did the convincing for them.

      20

      • #
        Tilba Tilba

        The unions and the idiotic policies of the socialist governments of the West did the convincing for them.

        Totally incorrect – the US has never had a socialist government (idiotic or otherwise) – but Main Street and the working class have been decimated in state after state. Go for a drive from Chicago to Manhattan – it’s astonishing.

        01

  • #
    CHRIS

    It is unbelievable that nations just sit back and let China do what they want…just like pre-WW2. All this talk of “sanctions” against China is just that; TALK. China will not be pulled into line unless the Neville Chamberlains of the West unite to stop China’s aggression and human rights abuses (I liken China’s treatment of the Uighurs to Hitler’s treatment of the Jews).

    30

    • #
      el gordo

      We can do nothing to help the Uighurs and unlike Hitler’s extermination camps, we are looking at reeducation facilities.

      02

  • #
    Dave in the States

    America’s great errors concerning China go waaaaayyy back.

    We are still reaping the bad karma from the incompetency of the FDR administration.

    00

    • #
      Tilba Tilba

      We are still reaping the bad karma from the incompetency of the FDR administration.

      LOL … one of the articles of faith – nay the Holy Grail – of the Republican lunar right, at least since Barry Goldwater, is to disparage and wind back the social and economic reforms instituted by FDR, and then more lately by LBJ, with civil rights and the Great Society.

      The Republican Right can’t stand the fact that two visionary and determined Democrat presidents rise so much high than a tepid pond of ineffectual Republicans. For the same reasons (and the same type of ideological psychosis) Donald Trump couldn’t accept that some half-baked non-billionaire African-American dude from Chicago had a much bigger Inauguration crowd.

      They’re a funny lot, the Republican Right!

      10

  • #
    Tilba Tilba

    From Sceptical Sam:

    1. Left-wing unionised feather-bedding and uncompetitive rates of pay ….
    2. Left leaning governments over-regulated western economies …
    3. Capital is footloose. The left has never understood that (or accepted it). The capital and the entrepreneurial spirit accordingly went elsewhere.

    We have heard this song many times. People who have a conservative view will never call it for what it is – capitalism – and it is capitalism that has destroyed the manufacturing-industrial base, the like of Main Street, and smashed the middle and working class.

    It cannot be stressed too much that Wall Street and Corporate America have shifted production off-shore … it has nothing to do with apportioning blame to Democrats or unions or bureaucrats – that is just a transparent distraction.

    In many cases – in both the US and Australia – government (and especially Dem/Labor state governments) have tried everything possible to keep production at home – free land, tax incentives, wage and workforce cuts – everything. Companies leech this for some years, then go anyway.

    The reality is – that for a very wide range of products – high-cost Western countries cannot compete at any price. Do you want wages to drop to $5.00 per hour, and staff cut by 50%? Give industry the right to pollute in any way they want?

    It is not the fault of “the left” that Main Street USA is a tragic disaster – capitalism has moved on. The US had a rather good run from 1880 to 1980, but other nations have caught up and overtaken them in many ways.

    And it has been going on for a long time … I recall as a kid all our products were AWA, STC, RCA, Motorola … and so on. All the cars were British or American. So were all our tools, farm equipment, and gardening equipment. By the time I left school we were using Sony, Sanyo, Panasonic, Nakita, Mitsubishi, etc. I was driving a new Mazda in 1969. Later there was a wave from Korea, Taiwan, Singapore.

    And a good thing I guess – without it we might still be using Hanimex slide projectors, Polaroid instant cameras, and RCA videorecorders the size of a bar fridge. And have you ever driven an American car – it feels like a slow barge.

    From a political point of view, it’s hard to see a solution. Both parties are very heavily dependent on donor funding from the very Wall Street and corporations that are the engine-room of globalisation, and very wide-ranging trade freedoms. In other words, they want America to be the way it is … or at best they don’t care. Profit is everything.

    I do not see what benefit there is in “moving” from China to India … the results back home will be just the same.

    The only solution it would seem to me – in order to maintain our standard and quality of life without relying forever on being a quarry – is to concentrate on those areas we can be very good at and which cannot be undercut easily.

    France, Germany, and Italy are very good at it – and produce a wide range of very desirable products that China cannot. Australia and the US need to do this on a big scale as well.

    It’s also worth asking whether the copying by China is such a bad thing … I type this on an excellent laptop made in China and was very cheap; I’m watching football on an 80 cm Chinese-made flatscreen TV that is at least 12 years old. I expect most of what I’m wearing is made in China or nearby.

    I said capitalism (and its right-wing political partners) caused the transfer of manufacturing out of the West – not the left or the unions. But really, we are all culpable, if culpability has to be apportioned. We have welcomed enthusiastically the consumer bonanza of the last two decades … but I agree the hidden costs have been high, and they’re on-going

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      You are a walking talking soft advert for the CCP.

      They certainly would be afraid of a resurrection of the Commonwealth or a shift to empower India. Best pour cold water on that idea…

      Capitalism did not “cause” the transfer of manufacturing. Corruption and the petty aim of virtue signalling, allowed the dark side of CCP, their bad will, slavery, pollution, to go “unnoticed”.

      Slavery is OK with you then?

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      Kalm Keith

      Incroyable!

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    Tilba Tilba

    Tilba, it’s almost like you are a nonstop CCP /Democrats advert.

    No, that is not fair – I just need to respond to all these erroneous claims that it was “the left” that led American corporations to abandon the industrial states and head for China. This is false.

    It was a decades-long square-dance between Chinese “state” capitalism and American “free market” capitalism … the left in the most part was at the vanguard of trying to keep manufacturing in America, and keeping Main Street alive. The conservatives on here will not admit that it was capitalism what done it – it wasn’t the CCP and Dems.

    And I am not a shill for either. And I have driven through some industrial regions of America – it’s awful.

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      David Wojick

      Back in 1978 I started doing strategic issue analysis (having discovered the issue tree). One of my first projects was for a major chemical company and the question was “Where in the US can we build our new chemical plant?” After careful analysis my answer was “Nowhere” because our environmental regulations were becoming prohibitive. So they went elsewhere.

      Back in the late 1990’s I lectured on the war on coal. EPA had a long line of stupid coming anti-coal regulations. In 2000-2001 we had a huge power plant building boom, with over 200,000 MW coming online. It was all gas powered even though gas was expensive. This was before the fracking revolution. Environmentalism killed coal, not cheap gas. Juice has become expensive.

      Manufacturing did not leave; it was driven out. I have been watching this in detail and writing about it for 50 years.

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    CHRIS

    Nailed it, Jo. GREED was the factor in selling out the US to China…doesn’t matter if it was left, right, centre or whatever. In the US, GREED IS GOOD is the Mantra across the board. You’ve only got to look at the activities of the Reagans/Bushes/Clintons/ Obamas/Trumps/Bidens and the rest of the Wall Street/Washington Swamp individuals to see how the USA sold its soul to China and other nations, all for the mighty PROFIT. In my opinion, the USA will get what it deserves when China really starts Sabre rattling.

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