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EVen the UN is warning about the environmental damage Electric Vehicles will cause

Child Labor in Congo mining.

Child Labor in Congo mining. Photo Julian Herneis

Welcome to the Clean Green Future. Demand for rechargeable car batteries is predicted to rise 700% in the next four years. But even at current levels, children are already dying in mines in the Congo, and farmers in Chile are being forced off their land.

The UN is now slightly “concerned” about a car battery boom which it helped create.

…a new report from UNCTAD, warns that the raw materials used in electric car batteries, are highly concentrated in a small number of countries, which raises a number of concerns.

…two-thirds of all cobalt production happens in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC). According the UN Children’s Fund (UNICEF), about 20 per cent of cobalt supplied from the DRC comes from artisanal mines, where human rights abuses have been reported, and up to 40,000 children work in extremely dangerous conditions in the mines for meagre income.

And in Chile, lithium mining uses nearly 65% of the water in the country’s Salar de Atamaca region, one of the driest desert areas in the world, to pump out brines from drilled wells. This has forced local quinoa farmers and llama herders to migrate and abandon ancestral settlements. It has also contributed to environment degradation, landscape damage and soil contamination, groundwater depletion and pollution.

The UN’s answer, of course, is not to slow the transition, but to project out three shades of hope. They hope people will find some other deposits of cobalt and lithium. They hope people will figure out how to recycle them, and they hope someone will design some batteries that use other materials.

In the meantime, though, little black lives in The Congo matter slightly less than an undetectable temperature change.

Children mining cobalt in slave-like conditions

ABC News

Former child labourer Yannick from Kolwezi, a city of more than 500,000 people in the south of the DRC, dropped out of school and went into full-time work at the age of seven.   “People died in the mine, and you could suffocate when you are deep in the mine,” he said. “When it rained, it created a lot of landslides.

As Thomas Williams says at Breitbart –  we’re only talking about one hundred thousanth of a degree C:

For his part, IEA Executive Director Fatih Birol said that in 2018, electric cars saved 40 million tons of CO2 worldwide, sufficient to reduce global temperatures by a mere 0.000018°C — or a little more than a hundred-thousandth of a degree Celsius — by the end of the century.

“If you think you can save the climate with electric cars, you’re completely wrong,” Birol said.

Electric Vehicles use more fossil fuels than normal cars, unless you live somewhere like France and can run them on nuclear power. Otherwise these are largely coal-or-gas powered cars that may lower the fuel bill, but make electricity, jobs, and your lifestyle, unaffordable.

Electric cars are already causing minor grid failures in a few upmarket streets in Australia, and we only have about 5,000 in the whole country.  If we add enough, we’ll need a whole new grid. Each new fast-charging car is equivalent to adding 20 new homes. They need extra transmission lines and generation that will cost something like $2000 per year for “our” electricity network.

The poor of Chile and Congo need reliable cheap baseload electricity and free markets, not UN fake jobs that won’t solve a fake problem.

h/t Eduard H.

Other posts on EV’s:

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Rating: 9.4/10 (84 votes cast)
EVen the UN is warning about the environmental damage Electric Vehicles will cause, 9.4 out of 10 based on 84 ratings

139 comments to EVen the UN is warning about the environmental damage Electric Vehicles will cause

  • #
    Margaret Smith

    This does for electric vehicles what Michael Moore’s Human Planet does for ‘renewables’

    280

    • #
      PeterS

      The solution by him would be the same. Less consumption (ie, less cars or eliminate them) and a new society (ie, socialist – after he called socialism a democracy – LOL). We need people like him like we need a huge hole in the head.

      130

  • #
    John F. Hultquist

    I must have nodded off.
    Started reading before realizing this is July 2020.
    Thought it was July 2012 or something.

    Likely a search of joannenova dot come would find one or more similar stories from years past.
    Climate activists didn’t care then, and they won’t care now.

    240

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    How is that doomsday global warming prevention working out for you?

    Volkswagen factory produces last ever combustion engine car, shifts to EVs only

    https://thedriven.io/2020/06/29/volkswagen-factory-produces-last-ever-combustion-engine-car-shifts-to-evs-only/

    “From today on, only electric models of Volkswagen and in future also of the sister brands Audi and Seat will be produced in Zwickau,” the statement said.
    This, in itself, is a big enough milestone for a factory that has operated since 1904 and turned out more than 6 million Volkswagen ICE cars since 1990.
    But the Zwickau factory will also mark the first time the car maker has switched a large car factory completely to electric mobility.”

    Diesel cars: ‘It turns out we were wrong’
    4 April 2017
    http://www.bbc.com/news/health-39488662

    “Professor Sir David King, 77, was the architect of the policy to cut fuel duty for diesel cars as Tony Blair’s personal scientist.
    Yesterday he admitted he got it wrong, ”

    Everything You Need to Know about the VW Diesel-Emissions Scandal
    https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15339250/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-vw-diesel-emissions-scandal/

    Meanwhile, the scary green scam continues on the most gullible …

    New research shows the South Pole is warming faster than the rest of the world
    https://theconversation.com/new-research-shows-the-south-pole-is-warming-faster-than-the-rest-of-the-world-141536

    That warming should be welcomed from the Conversation scammers, as they are behind schedule from their last failed prediction …

    2008: Climate experts say that we will all have to move to Antarctica in 15 years
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/earthnews/3353247/Climate-change-study-predicts-refugees-fleeing-into-Antarctica.html

    Go woke; Go broke.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      Re South Pole warming

      “To estimate the influence of human-induced climate change, we analysed more than 200 climate model simulations with observed greenhouse gas concentrations over the period between 1989 and 2018.”

      LOL.. meanwhile UAH SoPol Land shows basically no warming at all

      260

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Volkswagen is now on a path to self destruction.
      Ohhhh well that’s their choice..
      It’s happened before when other ideologies got a hold.
      But green windy Germany nowadays imports a lot power from Nuclear France, Hyrdo Norway, and brown coal Poland.
      Very clever those Germans.

      222

      • #
        AndyG55

        Have they got that big second gas link from Russia built yet?

        Gas power EV’s… LOL !!

        130

      • #
        ken

        This is only one of Volkswagen’s many factories switching to electric only.
        They haven’t abandoned IC engines totally as the headline suggests.
        They will eventually wake up to the absurdity of EV’s.

        90

        • #
          PeterS

          In other words, it’s just talk and not reality. Very much like our politicians. PM Morrison still going on about how emission reductions is on track and important. Sickening. The alternative of course is worse. Is there any hope for us? I doubt it, not at least until we as a whole including at least one major party reaches the “Eureka” experience with respect to renewables and dumps them like the plague.

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        • #
          PeterW

          Zwickau is one out of 61 factories owned by the Volkswagen group.

          70

          • #
            Spetzer86

            If you had to bet which of those 61 factories will be the first to close, which one would you pick today?

            20

    • #
      sophocles

      These climate models show recent increases in greenhouse gases have possibly contributed around 1℃ of the total 1.8℃ of warming at the South Pole.

      Oh Wow!

      Quick everybody, don’t just stand there! Panic.
      The South Pole has warmed 1.8 ° C over 30 years.
      According to Misha from the Conversation The temperature variability at the South Pole is so extreme it masks anthropogenic effects.

      That, Misha, is what happens when you don’t understand orders of magnitude.

      It’s very cold at the South Pole Misha, somewhere below -50 ° C. At 1 ° C warming over 30 years, it will take the South Pole over 750 years to warm to a mere -25° C. Even at that temperature, nothing will melt. That’s why, Misha, Antarctica is white.

      The temperature at the South Pole is below -50°Celsius. If it took 30 years to warm the 1°C out of the 1.8 ° C which Misha’s model alleges the South Pole rose in temperature, after 200 runs, (let’s see: turns calculator on … Misha of the Conversation obviously didn’t take this step :-D My dinky little scientific calculator is far and away more accurate than Misha’s Climate Model )

      Let’s see: at 1° C every 30 years, it will take 25 * 30 years at least for the South Pole to warm from below -50 &degs; to something below -25°C a mere 750 years to reach a warmer -25 ° C Thats’ minus temperatures Misha. Doesn’t your CMIP 5 model cope with negative temperatures? Get’s confused by – signs?

      At that rate, who cares? Misha: do yourself a big favour and take the brain transplant option. Even the CMIP6 models are still running too hot. I had such high hopes for them, too. The CMIP5 models are even worse. Misha’s model must be CMIP5 model, which can’t handle negative temperatures.

      Wot a Wolly. I won’t even try to kick his rear end for such an obvious and feeble panicker, I wouldn’t get my foot back.

      70

      • #
        bobn

        meanwhile UAH SoPol Land shows basically no warming at all.
        So Sophocles – you’re running about 1000% too hot! More likely 750,000yrs to heat up to minus25. Oops but the milankovich cycles will have changed by then and we’ll be in a new ice age. It aint ever gonna warm up!

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  • #
    OriginalSteve

    I think EVs for short hops in towns for small distances make sense. But electric evrything is just plain dumb.

    181

    • #
      bobl

      Yes. but how much waste is having two $70,000 EV for short trips and a $25,000 diesel in the shed for the long ones. This is very poor utilisation of resources and dare I say it, is unsustainable. Really this just turns two car famillies into 3 or 4 car families, Leading to my catch-phrase, “Sustainability is economically unsustainable”

      Its the same with Wind/Solar for each Megawatt of renewables you need about 0.95MW of fossil fuel backup, that sits there maybe 30% of the time doing nothing (assuming CF of 30% for the renewables). Because the cost of the renewables is say 2 x the fossil fuel generator. Efectively the overhead on cost is 60%. The renewables constitute waste because the fossil fuel backup (bumped up just 5%) could meet the 1MW demand almost 100% of the time.

      With fossil fuel generator arrays you do use redundancy, but the redundancy uses the same tech and is often around one redundant unit for 10 in service units or 10% overhead on cost. On this basis though the Renewables are much less reliable because Renewables (say solar) fail every day, not just randomly once or twice a year. A Failure of the backup has an 80% chance of disrupting supply (for solar).

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    • #
      sophocles

      electric everything is just plain dumb

      -except when you want total control. The flick of one switch and your life is off.
      Think about it.

      Now add the Internet of Things to it. Flick that switch and everything of yours is off. All your appliances too.

      You’ve got a generator – so what? Your appliances have got the off signal along with your car and its charger. Everything else including air con was turned off. What are you going to do?

      70

  • #
    David Maddison

    Wow! Just imagine how bad some aspect of Leftist insanity things must be if even the UN thinks it’s bad!

    191

    • #
      Another Ian

      Check this list

      “Select House Members push “Climate Crisis” Action Plan”

      https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/07/01/select-house-republicans-push-climate-crisis-action-plan/

      40

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Its easy to pick who are pushing the globalist agenda…..follow the insanity of imposing a greenist strait jacket on an economy in trouble….the plan appears to be using covid and greenism to deliver a 1-2 punch to the middle class.

        Greenism is a direct threat to democracy and the people of this planet.

        90

        • #
          PeterS

          All so true but sadly PM Morrison doesn’t see it and in fact encourages it by still claiming emission reduction is important. Tell that to China, India, Japan and many other nations who are building hundreds of new coal fired power stations. It’s as if he thinks those countries don’t exist. Yet he becomes the hypocrite by spending some $250 billion on new longer range missiles in an attempt to defend us from China in case of a dispute. Then there are the diesel powered subs that will cost too much and take too long to delver. I sometimes wonder if Australia is the dumbest nation on earth. We used to be one of the smartest.

          70

  • #
    David Maddison

    Here’s a short video about exploitation of child slaves in the Congo for cobalt mining.

    https://youtu.be/JcJ8me22NVs

    50

  • #
    David Maddison

    The Left support slavery, whether it be the original support of slavery of black people in the US by the party of slavery, the Democrats; or Leftists keeping people on welfare as “voting slaves” to keep them voting for Leftist parties; or the taxation slavery of people who work; or the child slavery required to support Leftist “environmental” causes such as batteries required for electric vehicles or grid scale or home batteries to make intermittent power systems work; or the slavery of all of us as our standards of living and freedoms are daily destroyed by the Left.

    121

    • #
      PeterS

      The left support slavery for more than just the dark coloured people. The left support slavery for everyone else too, except for themselves of course.

      161

      • #
        el gordo

        This is not a left or right thing, fossil fuels eradicated slavery around the world but there are still small pockets to be found.

        62

        • #
          PeterS

          A lot of thing we discuss about is not a left or right thing. Emissions reductions is another example. Both major parties agree it’s important, which is crap. It doesn’t mean though we can’t blame the left for poisoning the minds of the LNP. In fact the left have a lot to answer for, far more than most people realise. The right are not perfect but they are not the root cause of the problems and propaganda being spread throughout our education systems, MSM and many business enterprises. For a number of reasons, the left have taken hold of many facets of our society and steering it towards a destructive end for the express purpose of a regime change. Simply put the left hate the West.

          70

          • #
            bobl

            I don’t buy into the conspiracy theory for the bulk of the left. 99% is driven by personality type, the left trades on “Feelings” rather than “Facts” and the right trades on “Facts” rather than “Feelings”. So we get the lines “—– deaths in custody” are a major problem even though Non —– die at a greater rate in custody. It “Feels” like it should be true because we hate racism. That’s enough for the left, the right want the facts and the fact that —– deaths in custody are LESS than Non —– deaths in custody means that we should be looking at the other side, OR even better we should not be racist at all and look at ALL deaths in custody.

            On climate change it’s the same, the Left look at the climate predictions and “Feel” that this is bad and someone should DO SOMETHING because, you know it aught to be a problem because some people are bad and polluting. The right say, hmm, prove to me that this is a problem beyond the capacity of the earths natural systems to manage, IE Feelings aren’t enough, you gotta show me the facts.

            So the left-right thing is more a war between the Feeling and Judging Briggs Meyer personailty types.

            Here’s another topical one

            The briggs Meyer F’s are screaming keep the QLD borders closed because people “Feel” at risk from those evil dirty infected Victorians at the same time that the Facts show that infectiousness would be reduced and lives would be saved if all the sick people in Melbourne were in fact brought across the border into North Queensland where the failure of microdroplet transmission, Vitamin D, UV exposure and lower density living can work it’s magic. A J says move those people to where the transmission risk is lowest to save lives.

            Now from this all you will note that I am a Briggs Meyer J

            71

            • #

              As a die-hard ENFP and former Green I agree that this is personality type driven and have been toying with writing a book on it for years. Agree Agree Agree.

              All except the border thing with QLD. Look at how the virus has spread in Brazil, Cal, Texas, FLorida and Arizona. Look at how fast the growth is in Vic. The last thing we want is for virus to get back into QLD. It could still take off like a rocket.

              104

              • #
                bobl

                That’s your F showing Jo.

                Looking at it objectively, yes it might take off in NQ but because of low population density, winter UV/Vit D, Heat, Salt air and various other variables like off shore prevailing wind direction. NQ would have a softer breakout than Victoria would, with the result that overall infection numbers and lives would be saved IE More people would be prevented from contracting the disease in Melbourne than additional people would catch it in NQ. I have an aged Aunt and Uncle in Victoria – if I could I’d invite them to stay here where it’s epidemiologically safer for them, but I can’t.

                While the QLD border closure might be reducing cases in QLD, ironically it could be driving more cases in Victoria?

                PS, you must hate me, I’m the stereotypical mad scientist – INTJ

                91

              • #
                bobl

                BTW Jo,
                Your own Premier does seem to be playing politics with his irrational fear of other states with virtually no CV 19 infection. Putting your ENFP aside and looking at it impassionately, how much do you think McGowan is playing to the sentiment within the WA population for secession from the Commonwealth for political purposes. I’ve worked and lived in WA over many years the secession sentiment is good and strong in WA.

                41

              • #
                bobl

                PPS, Maybe you should launch a thread on personality type and Politics and get some ideas for your book – I think it needs to be written. The thread will help as Data is king. Oh and I apologise for my Error I think you are right and the opposite for F – Feeling is T- Thinking, not J – Judging which Opposes P – Perceiving so those reading my comment please put T where you see J.

                For what its worth though my point was that the Left/Right schism isn’t political it’s psychological in origin. We don’t really have any party on the right because F’s tend to be drawn to public service roles.

                22

              • #
                Peter C

                What is an ENFP?

                10

              • #

                Peter, it’s one of the Myers and Briggs Personality Types. I/E=Introvert or Extrovert.
                N/S=Intuitive or Sensing, F/T= Feeling or Thinking and J/P=Judging/ Perceiving. You can take the test. :)
                https://my-personality-test.com/personality-type-indicator?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIs8-N_Pqt6gIVwRErCh3f1QLNEAAYASAAEgKW7PD_BwE

                20

              • #
                Peter C

                Thanks Beth,

                Apparently I might be an ISTP! I and S were weak. T and P much stronger.

                Jo says she is ENSP. Really? Extroverted- Yes, Intuitive- Maybe, Sensing- I don’t think so. She thinks about things a lot and is super logical in her replies. Perceiving – I thinks so, but I am not quite sure what Judgemental might be.

                20

              • #

                Peter, supposedly …
                ISTJ – The Inspector.
                ISTP – The Crafter.
                ISFJ – The Protector.
                ISFP – The Artist.
                INFJ – The Advocate.
                INFP – The Mediator.
                INTJ – The Architect.
                INTP – The Thinker.

                I meself come out INTJ.

                20

            • #
              PeterS

              I don’t believe in conspiracies either unless they are backed up with real hard evidence. In any case the end result is the same due to the lack of an appropriate response from those who should know better. As the saying goes “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”. It’s so true yet we never learn.

              30

          • #
            el gordo

            With the battle between labour and capital having come to an end, due to enterprise bargaining, climate change was a godsend for the left and the greens saw their opportunity to become a useful junior partner.

            But now I suspect the LNP will dominate our political culture for at least two more terms.

            Now let us look at Premier Gladys as an example of right wing delusion, renewable zones and not coal fired power plants. Both the left and right have become infected by green sludge, so only a balanced MSM can save us from mass delusion.

            The folly in the education system can be overcome fairly quickly, but we’ll need a catalyst to get the debate going.

            51

        • #
          PeterW

          Gordo,
          Slavery in a England and Europe declined markedly during the Medieval period due to moral-religious reasons. England declared war on the international slave trade in 1808, before fossil fuels became the major source of power. Again, it was clearly for moral/religious reasons.

          Slavery continues in Northern Africa and the Middle-East, in some of the countries best endowed with fossil fuels.

          The argument that slavery died out due to fossil fuel use does not stand up.

          51

          • #
            Wayne Job

            It was the English that supplied the slaves for the southern plantations. The arabs would round them up bring them to the coast in Africa where the English would purchase them.
            Take them to America and on sell them at a good profit. It was the Yanks that put a stop to the English and all their nefarious ways.

            23

            • #
              PeterS

              William Wilberforce played a key role in the abolition of the slave trade in Britain but it took some time to come into effect. His Slave Trade Act of 1807 started the process to abolish the slave trade in the British Empire. The Slavery Abolition Act 1833 accelerated the decline of slavery. In America the 13th Amendment was passed by Congress in 1865 to abolish slavery there but they too took their time to end it completely. Still, when the two were fighting each other for the American War of Independence, both sides used slaves. After the war most Northern states outlawed slavery but the Southern ones continued on using them, until the Civil War. Meanwhile in Britain thanks the efforts of many after Wilberforce, slavery was slowly banned even though the acts were already in place. All sides had much blood on their hands.

              30

            • #
              PeterW

              Wayne..Are you historically illiterate?

              The Arabs primarily ran the Eastern African slave trade supplying North Africa and the Middle-East. It was larger and more brutal than the Atlantic Slave Trade. Almost all male slaves were castrated and half-bred children of female slaves were normally killed.

              The West-African slave trade suppling the trans-Atlantic was primarily supplied by African slavers dealing with a mix of traders supplying the Spanish, Portuguese, and English colonies in the West Indies as well as the American Colonies and the fledgling United States. The traders were a mix of nationalities, including American.

              It was the English who banned the international maritime slave trade around the world, a ban which cost them enormously in blood and treasure. They did it by maintaining a naval presence around the world in a time and in places where fatalities from disease would have been intolerable to modern sensitivities.

              The West Africa Squadron of the Royal Navy is recorded as having captured 1600 slave-carrying ships and freed 150,000 slaves.

              As “S” has pointed out, it was a long process to formally ban slavery in all parts of the British Empire, but as slavery had been endemic to every race and continent throughout history, those making the breakthrough should be given due credit.

              80

          • #
            el gordo

            ‘Slavery in a England and Europe declined markedly during the Medieval period due to moral-religious reasons.’

            The Judeo-Christian belief in a monotheistic God did make an impression, Christians were not allowed to enslave fellow Christians, but everyone else was fair game. This was commonplace up to the 19th century.

            The American civil war was a battle over energy, the industrial north against the slave owning south, it distorted the market. So I’m sticking to my belief that fossil fuels and the industrial revolution provided better labour saving devices than slaves.

            21

            • #
              PeterW

              Gordo…. Wrong again.

              It’s nothing to do with being monotheistic – the Muslims have always been “soft’ on slavery because Mohammed owned slaves and permitted owning slaves. As Islamic doctrine holds that Mohammed is the ultimate human example, an absolute ban on slavery is difficult for them.

              Christian doctrine – preached in a world where slavery was endemic and Christians were cautioned to be apolitical – took the principle that all humans had an inherent worth and concludes after centuries of debate that this implied certain rights and liberties that were contrary to cultural practices that had been in place forever.

              Christians were not commanded to start wars over the legal status of slaves, but to follow their consciences in their personal relationships with each other as individuals. The result by the Middle-Ages was not just a general trend against slavery across Europe, but an equally obvious moral movement against treating women as property. Despite the expected variation in morality – humans were no more inclined to theological lock-step than they are now – the idea that a woman should not be married without her own consent, did not arise with the Feminists.

              10

          • #
            el gordo

            The Second Fleet convicts were virtual slaves.

            ‘Surprize, Neptune, and Scarborough were contracted from the firm Camden, Calvert & King, which undertook to transport, clothe and feed the convicts for a flat fee of £17 7s. 6d per head, whether they landed alive or not. This firm had previously been involved in transporting slaves to North America. The only agents of the Crown in the crew were the naval agent, Lieutenant John Shapcote, and the Captain of the Guard; Camden and Calvert supplied all other crew.

            ‘The three vessels left England on 19 January 1790, with 1,006 convicts (928 male and 78 female) on board. They made only one stop on the way, at the Cape of Good Hope. Here 20 male convicts, survivors from HMS Guardian, were taken on board. The three vessels made a faster trip than the First Fleet, arriving at Port Jackson in the last week of June 1790, three weeks after Lady Juliana, and one week after the storeship Justinian.

            ‘The passage was relatively fast, but the mortality rate was the highest in the history of transportation to Australia. Of the 1,038 convicts embarked, 273 died during the voyage (26%) and 486 landed sick. This sits in stark contrast to the mortality rates reported on the First Fleet where “with nearly an equal number of persons, only 24 had died and not thirty landed sick. The difference can be accounted for only by the comparing the manner in which each fleet was fitted out and conducted.”

            ‘On Neptune the convicts were deliberately starved, kept chained, and frequently refused access to the deck. Scurvy could not be checked. On Scarborough, rations were not deliberately withheld, but a reported mutiny attempt led to the convicts being closely confined below decks.

            ‘Captain William Hill, commander of the guard, afterwards wrote a strong criticism of the ships’ masters stating that “the more they can withhold from the unhappy wretches the more provisions they have to dispose of at a foreign market, and the earlier in the voyage they die, the longer they can draw the deceased’s allowance to themselves”. wiki

            21

        • #
          FijiDave

          el gordo, not so small:

          According to the Global Slavery Index (GSI), there are an estimated 40.3 million slaves in the world today. This modern day slavery is in many instances not all too different from that in medieval times, as people are still being owned as property by others in some countries around the world.

          30

  • #
    George

    “And in Chile, lithium mining uses nearly 65% of the water in the country’s Salar de Atamaca region, one of the driest desert areas in the world, to pump out brines from drilled wells. This has forced local quinoa farmers and llama herders to migrate and abandon ancestral settlements. It has also contributed to environment degradation, landscape damage and soil contamination, groundwater depletion and pollution.”

    I was in the Atacama Desert in February and saw (from a distance) the lithium brine operations in the Salar d’Atacama. I heard many claims about the environmental degradation but saw little evidence and think it might be environmental hysteria. The area containing the brine ponds is extremely dry and the potential for farming is negligible. The Salar d’Atacama is fed by water from the Andes to the east, there are no outlets and water consumption is from evaporation, humans plants and wildlife. My reading suggests that the lithium production accounts for about 10% of water consumption and that the largest users of water in this region of the Atacama desert are tourism, with quarter of a million tourists per year to the San Pedro area (the closest main town to the Salar de Atacama, with a population of 6,500), and copper mining. I visited lagoons in the area which are fed from the salar and the water levels in these were only a few metres from the surface.

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    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Thanks for that.
      It’s always good to read some personal experience
      Of such a far away part of the world as the Atacama desert.
      Backing it up with some research is also welcome.

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    • #
      RickWill

      Copper mining was a big user of the water resources in the region. That is changing through recycling water used to transport the concentrate to the coast as well as building desalination plants on the coast:
      https://im-mining.com/2018/04/07/bhp-opens-escondida-water-supply-largest-desalination-plant-latin-america/

      In a ceremony which took place today at Puerto Coloso, Antofagasta, Minera Escondida inaugurated a 2,500-l/s desalination plant to supply the mine’s needs. The new plant is in addition to the company’s 525-l/s plant, which has been in operation for twelve years.

      https://www.mining-journal.com/copper-news/news/1379729/chile-seawater-desalination-to-grow-156

      The use of seawater desalination by mining in Chile is to grow 156% through 2030 to 11 cubic metres per second, according to Copper Commission, Cochilco, while the use of continental water will decrease 6%.

      My understanding is that the water that was used in the mines reduced the flow in the Amazon. That is the driver for the desalination plants. I expect that the lithium mines will eventually have desalination plants. The fossil sourced energy used in Peru or Chile for desalination will be neglected when the CO2 savings are calculated for the EVs.

      Normally when you are paying more for a consumer item, it reflects that it required more energy in its creation. Teslas are the antithesis of conservation. They are behemoths.

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      • #
        Graeme No.3

        RickWill:

        I think you need a new atlas. Chile is south of Brazil and on the other side of the mountains.

        Re EVs Professor Michael Kelly wrote a report for the GWPF

        Turning to the raw materials needed to produce batteries, Kelly claims: “If we replace all of the UK vehicle fleet with EVs, and assuming they use the most resource-frugal next-generation batteries, we would need the following materials:

        207,900 tonnes of cobalt – just under twice the annual global production;
        264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate – three-quarters of the world’s production;
        at least 7,200 tonnes of neodymium and dysprosium – nearly the entire world production of neodymium; and
        2,362,500 tonnes of copper – more than half the world’s production in 2018.

        He also points out the unlikelihood of there being enough electricity IF they ever try going all EVs.

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      • #
        Analitik

        The capital and running costs of running the desal plants and pumping the water on its round circuit to the mines and back won’t scale well. From conclusion of the 2nd link

        Ultimately, the cost of installing desalination capacity and the energy costs associated with pumping water up into the high cordillera, will put the brakes on development projects. “This type of supply implies a high cost which many projects cannot assume, especially those far from the coast and at higher altitudes,” said Consejo Minero executive president, Joaquín Villarino.

        And from the first link

        BHP awarded a long-term contract for the development of the Kelar Power Plant, which was originally designed to use coal but was converted into a combined-cycle natural gas plant in order to have energy from a cleaner source

        So much for renewables and batteries powering production of more renewables and batteries.

        30

    • #
      Analitik

      It’s not about farming and the environment in the Atacama Desert itself. It’s about the surrounding region.
      This is from The Guardian so you know it must be bad if it’s green but even they report the effects as being bad

      Sara says that the villagers used to graze their animals on pastures on the edge of the Atacama, beneath the giant Andes mountains.
      “It used to be so green, now it’s just hard, cracked ground. We can’t keep llamas anymore,” she laments.
      Sara says that lithium mining on the Atacama is using up all the fresh water in the region’s aquifers – layers of porous rock beneath the soil which act as stores of water.

      and

      About 40km (25 miles) further north, Jorge Cruz grows maize and alfalfa on a small plot of land in the village of Camar, another indigenous community near the salt flat.

      He says that if the mining companies continue to use fresh water at the current rate his village will not survive.

      “The birds have gone, we can’t keep animals anymore,” he says. “It’s getting harder and harder to grow crops. If it gets any worse… we will have to emigrate.”

      No, I haven’t visited the region so I have no first hand knowledge.

      The farmers who worry about our phone batteries

      30

      • #
        Analitik

        And a more recent article from the (rather lefty) German site, DW

        At first glance, Chile’s Atacama Desert looks a barren, inhospitable place. Yet indigenous people and animals have long thrived there. Now locals says they’re having to compete with the lithium industry for the desert’s limited water resources.

        “Before the mining companies arrived here, there was a lot of water,” Diaz told DW. “But mining has consumed the groundwater, the companies even take water from the river, so we farmers don’t get the water we need anymore.”

        The 58-year-old farmer points to markings above the water’s surface in the irrigation canal that bear witness to past times’ higher water levels. “Today, very few farmers can make a living,” he said.

        Lithium extraction for e-mobility robs Chilean communities of water

        20

    • #
      BoyfromTottenham

      George,
      If you read carefully, your quote:
      “lithium mining uses nearly 65% of the water in the country’s Salar de Atamaca region”
      is talking about ‘Atamaca’, not the ‘Atacama’ that you refer to. Is this a typo, or something else?

      10

      • #
        George

        B from T

        “Atamaca” is a typo.

        The Lithium production is from the Salar Atacama which is about 100km south of the provincial capital Calama. the Salar itself is about 100km long (north-south) and 30km wide. The foothills of the Andes are about 30km to the east and the pacific coast is about 250km to the west.

        10

  • #
    Bill In Oz

    EV’s in Australia ?
    They constitute a miniscule part of monthly sales.
    Who wants buy a car which is roughly 40% more in price that a ICE car equivalent ?
    Who wants to buy and expensive car that runs out of ‘gas’ after 200 ks
    And then needs to be plugged in for 5-6 hours ?
    And how many service stations have room for a hundred or so car charging ?
    It’s all a dingbat idea.

    PS 2: Covid 19 has lead to a big change in where people want to live in Australia.
    Lots of people are working from home now and want to keep doing it.
    The high density inner city ( cafe latte) suburbs have fallen from favor
    Because of the higher liklihood of being infected.
    Prices for high rise apartments are falling like stones.
    The new favored areas are smaller country towns outside the cities.
    And EV’s with their limited range do not work in these places:
    No recharging sites and toooooo far away from the cities ..
    Ohhhh well..Another ‘blessing’ from Covid 19 ?

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    • #
      OriginalSteve

      EVs greatly restrict freedom of movement…but thats appears to be the idea…

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      • #
        David Maddison

        OriginalSteve. You are correct. It is certainly on the Leftist agenda to restrict freedom of movement, except for the Elites. Hence their war against roads and ICE vehicles and their heavy promotion of public transport and bicycle lanes. The physically infirm or those that have to go shopping (most of us have to shop regularly) who can’t use bikes or public transport will have to stay at home and rely on an army of delivery slaves for online shopping. Elites like politicians and senior public serpents will still have chauffer driven cars, unlimited taxi accounts (Cabcharge in Australia) or their own taxpayer provided cars.

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        • #
          Greg in NZ

          Staying put, the new moving forward.

          At least it’s warm in the Congo; poor kids would freeze to death here. Southerly storm dumps snow, highways closed, massive seas pounding the east coast, sub-zero wind chill: typical July weather at these latitudes.

          “Big winds make big waves, simple as that” pontificated Chris ‘NIWA’ Brandelino on the radio this morning, as Media.Inc ramped up a standard winter storm into some Godzilla Climate Monster (GCM) complete with wave measurements of “11.82 metres [40ft] recorded off Banks Peninsula”. Be afraid, be very afraid!

          And that’s why we need child slave labour and ‘one-use water’ from the mountains: to command the climate be kind again, just as it was during the Little Ice Age, or thereabouts.

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    • #
      John in Oz

      There are 2 free EV outlets at Summit Health Care in Mt Barker that are merely taking up 2 parking spaces as I have never seen a car being recharged there.

      There are time limits on every other parking space but not those 2.

      I feel discriminated against. Who can I complain to?

      80

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        John, I have never seen any cars re-charging there either.
        Maybe we should all park there anyway

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      • #
        David Maddison

        Why not put a fake charging port on your car and plug it in? Then you can have unlimited free parking.

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      • #
        Dennis

        Two EV charge stations I view a few times a year, Heatherbrae north of Newcastle and Dubbo NSW, mostly have no EV parked.

        A few days ago Heatherbrae had one EV on one of six charge points.

        30

  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    This is how the market works, it is feature, not a bug.

    All over the world there are people working in slave like conditions, if not actual slavery as in Libya, or in the sex industry.
    You minimise costs and maximise profit, if that means underpayment, aka Woolworths and Coles, environmental destruction, aka coal mining, or destruction of heritage, aka Rio Tinto, then all is good, aka shareholders.

    This is a libertarian dream also as there is only the market, with little government interference.

    Finally, as we all know, those children are free not to work, so they must be making an informed choice.

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    • #
      el gordo

      ‘ … so they must be making an informed choice.’

      Their uninformed parents told them to do it.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      So suddenly all those little black lives DON’T MATTER, because they are doing “Greta’s” work…

      Environmental destruction, aka Wind turbines and solar panel manufacturing…

      FAR more environmentally damaging that any coal mine or coal fired power station.

      And coal fired power actually CONTRIBUTES, without it, no single sizable city would/could exist.

      Plus the added BONUS of increased atmospheric CO2 that provides food for all life on the planet.

      Wind and solar contribute absolutely NOTHING.. they TAKE.. they require government interference to even exist, they require massive load of toxic chemicals in their manufacture
      (did you learn anything from Michael Moore’s film, or are you still in denial?).

      The market for EV’s is nothing to do with market demand, its is political interference at the highest level.

      EV’s are a meaningless gesture and will have zero effect on anything to do with the climate, just a big leap upwards in environmental destruction and human exploitation in undeveloped countries.

      But that’s ok..

      so long as you can virtue signal to overcome a non-existent problem, right Peter !

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    • #
      David Maddison

      Peter, as a Libertarian myself your ignorance of Libertarianism offends me. Slavery is an extension of feudalism, a Leftist ideology, nothing to do with the freedom-loving, free market loving Libertarian right. Why do you think the US Democrats fought to keep slavery and voted against every civil rights law? All the first black members of US Congress were Republican for many decades before a black Democrat was ever elected. Democrats in the US have done nothing good for black people – ever. It took Donald Trump to do that.

      Here is an essay on Libertarianism and slavery. Educate yourself.

      https://mises.org/library/radical-libertarian-tradition-antislavery-thought

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      • #
        AndyG55

        “Educate yourself.”

        LOL, very funny David..

        Where to start !!

        Gotta get rid of all the anti-knowledge first.

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        • #
          el gordo

          What Fitz meant to say.

          This is a laissez-faire dream, there is only the market with little government interference.

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          • #
            David Maddison

            Slavery requires the support of oppression of individuals by the state and is not consistent with Libertarianism or any authentic free market doctrine.

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            • #
              Bill In Oz

              But the free market South of the USA, pre civil war, was certainly very libertarian..
              Paradoxes abound in human affairs
              Consistency is not a strong point with humans

              34

            • #
              el gordo

              The children dropped out of school and went to work in the mines, in conditions similar to 19th century hell holes.

              ‘The relationship between libertarianism and laissez‐​faire is a simple one: Laissez‐​faire is the libertarian position on economic policy. Although most who regard themselves as libertarians admit exceptions, even the most moderate embrace a laissez‐​faire economy as the benchmark of a free society.’

              Libertarianism.org

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      • #
        Furiously curious

        There is the small matter of LBJ’s ‘Great Society’ changes of 1965, that caused the Republican and Democrat parties to swap memberships and policies. So we can go with the left’s idea that historical positions can never be cleansed (except………….when it suits) But i’d hope we’d be better than that.

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    • #
      bobl

      As usual not a braincell is working. Yes there are uneducated i***ts on the planet that do the sort of thing but they are more likely to be on the left. The right find would that more reprehensible than the left. Any educated person on the right knows not to shoot the goose that lays the golden egg. For example farm so intensively their property is decimated. Farmers are the best stewards of the land, miners know that damaging food supplies, or killing your best workers is not economically sustainable. They also know that to minimise external interference n their businesses they have to pay lip service to Global Warming.

      The environmental destruction driven by the left is incredible because they “Feel” EVs are the right thing to do, massive environmental destruction is allowed to happen, even at the behest of the “Feeling” left. Food riots driven by ethanol production, theft of ancestral lands for carbon farming, People dying of cancer because of funding diversion, Kids dying of malaria due to not being able to use DDT, or going blind from Vit A deficiency because the “Feeling” left wont allow GMO rice. These are all ok if you “Feel” like it’s right, but one look at the facts and they are seen to be wanting.

      In all cases Peter the rights FACT based approach is going to deliver best results, you can’t “Feel” your way to success. “Feeling” of course leads to Virtue Signalling which exists so you can “Feel” good about your mistakes.

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      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        This was a post about an alleged problems with a particular resource extraction, in one country. The post ignores any other sources for this particular resource, and then conflates this with EV’s and the green movement.

        my comment effectively ‘triggered’ you, which drives you to attack me, and not the message. Of course other forms of near slavery, actual slavery, environmental degradation, and destruction of native culture and artifacts might be totally fine with the commentators here, but if that is the case, then they should be totally fine with this particular example of cobalt production

        mind you, I’m not surprised that instead of arguing facts, you make a bunch of assertions outside the topic, politicise my position, while not addressing the real issue – the Congo allows this mining on this scale, because of profits.

        Prove me wrong

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        • #
          AndyG55

          Trying to justify child slave labour.. Really Peter ?

          The manufacture of EV’s is far more environmentally destructive that a normal car.

          Just as wind turbines and solar are far more environmentally destructive than coal fired power is.

          You never did watch or understand Michael Moore’s film, did you. !

          As bob’l says, you are the one basing all your little rants on “feelings” rather than actual facts and reality, because you KNOW you cannot produce facts to back anything you say.

          Great to see bobl’s post “triggered” you to do another victim-based whine.. very funny !

          “and destruction of native culture and artifacts might be totally fine with the commentators here”

          Nope, not fine…. wind turbines, and solar panels and bio-fuels have a LOT to answer for.

          The whole greenie agenda has a lot to answer for in the way of environmental destruction.

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        • #
          Graeme No.3

          Peter,
          the problem with cobalt is that The Congo produces 51,000 tonnes, as much as the next 14 largest producers. China is No.2 and Russia No.4, and Australia No.5 with about 11% the amount that The Congo produces.
          That means that The Congo as dominates the market and with the rising demand gets rising prices. For the poor people in The Congo this means even the dregs of the selling prices provide a living.

          And what is driving these prices higher? Demand to supply the “Green Energy” dream.
          “If we replace all of the UK vehicle fleet with EVs, and assuming they use the most resource-frugal next-generation batteries, we would need the following materials:
          207,900 tonnes of cobalt – just under twice the annual global production;
          264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate – three-quarters of the world’s production;
          And the UK is only one country trying to force their population to switch to EVs. And note, those EV’s will be marketed as CLEAN, GREEN and not as DBC (Dead Black Children).

          50

    • #
      PeterW

      Australia has the world’s second-largest lithium reserves… and only about 2000 different regulations that any developer must comply with. Not to mention the taxes, charges and high energy costs that make development less profitable.

      There is a reason why most mining is not done by under-paid kids…. it’s because modern machinery is a lot more cost-effective if government doesn’t make it otherwise.

      30

      • #
        PeterW

        Hmmm..
        Australia also has the word’s second-largest Cobalt resources.

        30

      • #
        Analitik

        You left out indigenous land rights that must be respected

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      • #

        HOw many of those regulations are other than trivial?

        10

        • #
          Lucky

          Regulations, licences, permits and all the other requirements of governments are quite substantial impediments to mining in Australia. So much so that only real big corporations can afford the delays, consultants, and payoffs to activists that are demanded before construction can start.

          30

  • #
    PeterS

    EV are a big step backward in terms of “refuelling”. Charging times are still far too long to be practical. There’s one good thing about them. If everyone had to use them it would be a good “load test” for the grid. Of course the grid would not survive and bring home the truth about renewables, namely it’s a scam.

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    • #
      David Maddison

      The Australian grid can barely stay working as it is without the secret hidden and hugely expensive diesel and gas turbine generators to keep things moving.

      Once there is a significant loading of EV’s getting charged, the whole grid will collapse without adding even more diesel or turbine generators.

      I always say that if people want to use “renewables” that’s fine as long as it’s done in a free market with no subsidies for unreliables and no penalties to reliable producers.

      The Left keep telling us how incredibly cheap renewables are so why would they object? The free market will work its wonders as it always does.

      Smart electricity meters could make sure a particular household is supplied only with unreliables. Once the wind stops blowing, the sun stops shining and the batteries go flat, the horrific cost of renewables will be realised as the household goes dark. Few Leftists would stick with them.

      At the moment the misery and high cost of renewables is socialised and spread equally among us.

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    • #
      Steve of Cornubia

      From time to time I find myself running out of fight in the face of unrelenting pressure from the Left to reinvent humanity and say, “Oh well. Let them have their way. It and we it will inevitably fail and then they will see the error of their ways.”

      Unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way. Like all modern socialists, they learn nothing from past mistakes, blaming bad outcomes – somehow – on conservatives who wouldn’t let them implement their policies in the purest form. If only they had total power, THEN you’d see the perfect version of their utopia. Honest!

      But we are remiss, we conservatives. This capitulation with a ‘knowing shrug’ has cost millions of people a prosperous future, when we allowed the Left to take over the education system. We knew it would fail and people wouldn’t receive a good education – and time has proven us right. But in the process of letting the Left fail once more, we have condemned all those poor kids to a life of welfare or as illiterate factory fodder.

      I’m ashamed.

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  • #
    Komrade Kuma

    The idea that you leverage the [planet’s electric energy supply system to battery technology that requires extremely rare minerals (these things are not called ‘rare eaarth’s’ for nothing) is just plain nuts. Whether its just for electric vehicles, residential buiilding solar generation or even loonier the main grid supply to provide short term storage and load shock absorbtion, nuts is still the only rational evaluation.

    That you try to achieve such a nutjob objective using child, slave labour among other environmental abominations just exemplifies the utter disconnect from both reality and morality the proponents of such madness are.

    100

    • #
      bobl

      Sorry, but the Rare Earths are not particularly rare. They are however quite diffuse in the earths crust and in some cases being rather reactive they can take a lot of energy to extract. It’s hard to find these elements in high enough concentration and chemical form to make it practical to mine. This isn’t uncommon, we think of Aluminium as being “Rare” compared to say Iron, but common clay in your back yard is likely to be comprised of Aluminium Silicate. The problem is that refining Aluminium from Aluminium silicates is hard to do.

      50

      • #
        Komrade Kuma

        Thanks bobl, I take both your points, a) they are not that rare overall but b) they are rarely available in commercially extractable concentrations. Gold is similar in some respects. At the end of the day perhaps that’s the actuall ‘driver’ of the child slavery.

        Re the ‘rare’ but not that rare thing, similar applies to wind and wave ‘renewable’ energy. There’s plenty of it out there but for extraction reasons it is difficult and expensive to build devices to harvest and then deliver it for practical use including temporary storage.

        Pigs could easily fly if they were the size of mice and their wings were big enough.

        30

        • #
          AndyG55

          Pigs could easily fly if they were the size of mice

          Then where would we get our bacon from ?

          And pork rind would be a thing of the past !

          30

  • #
    yarpos

    We can set aside the “if it saves on kiddie” logic if it means we can have our shiney virtue signalling toy. Living the dream.

    50

  • #
    David Maddison

    The smiling, happy, clean, healthy kid in the picture doesn’t look like a cobalt mining slave.

    The picture must have been taken by a Leftist as a propaganda piece to show how wonderful “green” energy is and its fantastic “employment” opportunities for the locals.

    50

  • #
    John

    “… little black lives in The Congo matter slightly less than an undetectable temperature change.”

    Well said !

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  • #
    Paul Miskelly

    Peter Fitzroy,
    Did you note the little exercise that I gave you in yesterday’s “Tuesday Open Thread” (post #14)?
    I suggested that you read the two papers by UK Professor of Electrical Engineering, Professor Michael Kelly on the matters of resource consumption, infrastructure cost, etc., in the pursuit of renewables-based solutions to the electricity supply, and that you provide a rebuttal, if you can, to those papers, preferably by the next available Open Thread.
    Well, you will find that one of those papers is absolutely, directly, relevant to today’s post. It’s full title is: “Electrifying the UK and the Want of Engineering”.
    Just in case you missed my original post, the paper is available at:
    https://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2020/05/KellyDecarb-1.pdf .
    It is a brilliant piece of engineering writing, and written to be readily understood by a non-engineering audience.
    The other, equally well-written paper is available as:
    https://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2019/11/KellyWeb.pdf .

    As for the last sentence, Peter, in your post (#10) above, I will leave it to others who are more expert than I in such matters as Chronic Obstructive Lung Disease, Silicosis, Mesothelioma, and the myriad of lung and other chronic diseases whose onset is caused specifically by underground working in poorly-ventilated mines to explain to you some of the reasons as to why people have worked so hard for so long to ensure that children are not exposed to such working conditions.
    So, you would still argue that these children are making a fully-informed choice?

    Don’t forget, you have Professor Kelly’s report to address.

    Regards,
    Paul Miskelly

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    • #
      RickWill

      Given the enormity of the task to decarbonise it is a good thing that it is being thought about now. The sad part is throwing an incredible amount of capital into technologies that are doomed and cannot return the energy that went into their implementation.

      The COVID19 experience provides a glimpse of what the world might look like when fossil fuels are more expensive.

      The technology is there for a very large proportion of jobs to be done from a home office. Who really needs to travel internationally by plane or boat!

      My eldest son lives in the UK with his growing family and they have not had the need to own a car. They do not have bikes. They walk locally for daily needs. They shop on-line for most clothing, tech stuff and educational supplies. They make the occasional trip to respective employer offices by walk/train/walk both ways. They will get a cab if the weather is seriously bad or they have luggage from an overseas trip.

      Insulation, heat capacity and sunlight are growing factors for economic housing. For example, double glazing is still rare in Australian homes. Energy bills in Australia have increased quite dramatically for people not used to working from home. There was a news report of a couple complaining about their energy bills showing the fellow adjusting his central heater thermostat in his house; dressed in shorts and short-sleeve T-shirt, the partner was in similar attire with no covering on arms or legs?

      Globally, we are not far from population decline. That will take some of the stress off resources. We may only have a couple of centuries to decarbonise. We have already elapsed 10 to 15% of the time to get there from when the sustainable thrust started and spent a massive amount of capital to wean off less than 2%.

      Solar provides low cost electricity in Australia but its intermittency remains an insurmountable factor in its economic use. Fusion is just around the same corner it was 30 years ago. But who knows there may be real breakthroughs in energy storage that would make intermittent generators economically viable and see fusion actually producing more energy than goes into getting energy out.

      Decarbonising remains a huge task and there is an end to fossil fuels at some point in the distant future.

      10

    • #
      Analitik

      Don’t hold your breath for a meaningful response. I provided links for PF to peruse and then reply on to questions I posed to him on the origins of SARS-Cov-2 and also on the electricity wholesale pricing mechanism with no reply for either.

      20

      • #
        Analitik

        I seriously would like to see the logic behind the moderation filter.

        No links. No quotes. No words that I can see as being remotely contentious and yet “Your comment is awaiting moderation

        10

      • #
        AndyG55

        “with no reply for either”

        You won’t get one, either.

        His only purpose here is to make meaningless, anti-factual rants as an attention seeking ploy.

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  • #
    TdeF

    Just when you think the madness might be ending, the Democrats have a softer Green New Deal..

    ..”sets a range of targets, including a 45% reduction by 2030 of greenhouse gas emissions, which cause global warming.

    The plan also would require that by 2035 new cars emit no greenhouse gases,

    while heavy-duty trucks would eliminate those emissions by 2040.

    The plan would eliminate overall emissions from the power sector by 2040

    and all but eliminate greenhouse emissions from all economic sectors by 2050.”

    New cars must be all electric, no hybrids, in 15 years.

    And by 2040 only wind, solar, hydro, nuclear.

    Yes, the Greens have seen the light. And carbon is banned completely from the economy. So those confessions and revelations are all about pushing the nuclear industry, which has no emissions at all.

    That will fix the white supremacy and white privilege problem. America will be a total basket case. As planned.

    I do hope those Chinese masters are not racists.

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    • #
      TdeF

      And is it about climate? Not really.

      Supporters say the plan, presented by Democrats on the House Select Committee on the Climate Crisis, by 2050 would save more than 60,000 American lives every year thanks to reduced air pollution, as well as nearly $8 trillion thanks to health and climate benefits.

      Having travelled across America for forty years, I do not know these 60,000 people dying every year from CO2 pollution related problems and exactly what the climate benefits will be? Does anyone know about these massive $8 Trillion climate benefits?

      But at least it is not just about the Climate any more. CO2 clearly is the cause of health disaster in the US. I guess that would be Republicans breathing and factories operating and people driving to work and trucks delivering goods.

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      • #
        RickWill

        would save more than 60,000 American lives every year thanks to reduced air pollution

        This is such a silly statement. It implies that the average life span in the USA will increase 5 days every year. How long can that go on for.

        The USA has had declining life span for the last 5 years and average life span will take a big hit in 2020 due to CV19 – 130k so far and it has only just started in Florida, Texas and California: all big States. CV19 has clearly highlighted the lack of social values and cohesion in the USA. No amount of wind turbines and solar panels will improve the social values in the country. In fact, the increase in cost of living will put greater stress on US society.

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      • #
        Dave in the States

        Because of co2 there are greater crop yields preventing famines and numberless deaths of humans. The Dems are on the wrong side of history again.

        30

    • #
      Analitik

      The plan also would require that by 2035 new cars emit no greenhouse gases,

      while heavy-duty trucks would eliminate those emissions by 2040.

      The plan would eliminate overall emissions from the power sector by 2040

      and all but eliminate greenhouse emissions from all economic sectors by 2050.”

      This can be simplified down to

      by 2035, they want to eliminate all new cars

      while heavy-duty trucks would be eliminated by 2040.

      The plan would eliminate the power sector by 2040

      and all but eliminate all economic sectors by 2050

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    • #
      Analitik

      the Greens have seen the light. And carbon is banned completely from the economy. So those confessions and revelations are all about pushing the nuclear industry, which has no emissions at all

      You assume that Democrats are Greens which is totally incorrect. The Democrats seek to pull the Greens’ votes to their side with this New Green Deal but you overlook that Greens are absolutists and nuclear power is absolutely abhorrent to them.

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  • #
    TdeF

    I get it. In the USA 40,000 people die each year in car crashes. As many again from gunshot, but that’s not climate related and still a health problem.

    So if there are no cars and trucks, 40,000 people a year will be saved from car crashes which will not happen if there are no cars. Or trucks. Or aircraft. Or factories. Or farm machinery. Or jobs. So it’s back to hunter gatherer for 330million people.

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    • #
      Dave in the States

      Because of green priorities pushing increasingly ridiculous CAFE standards in the US, cars have become smaller, lighter, and less safe, costing many more deaths. Another green folly.

      20

  • #
    TdeF

    What is interesting is that leftist Michael Moore debunks solar and wind as frauds, Green Energy is dead. Long live nuclear.
    Then very prominent Green activist Michael Shellenberg debunks the Climate Extinction. Green Energy is dead. Long live nuclear.
    Neither say they were wrong about CO2. Carbon Dioxide is still the poison which is killing the planet and according to Nancy Pelosi today, 60,000 Americans a year alone.

    And they are all pushing the alternative, directly in the case of Moore and Shellenberg and indirectly in the case of Pelosi.

    So after perhaps $US30 Trillion in utterly wasted investment, rise, uranium breeder reactors, the new Green energy.

    PS. You can now buy cheap mini reactors, suitable for third world countries. Retail. Stop all that nasty CO2!
    Especially suitable for countries like Libya and Iraq and Jordan and Venezuela. And of course Australia because we need their uranium.
    Safe as houses.

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      Furiously curious

      Shellenberger has been debunking green energy for at least 6 yrs. Maybe because he’s not a physicist, Co2 isn’t his interest? Do we think he and Moore, not adding their voices to that argument, has been all that stopped us carrying the day?
      I’m pro nuclear, but if it is so cheap, I cant figure out why UAE has just paid US$25 billion for a South Korean plant, and Egypt the same, for a Russian plant! 5+ megawatts. That’s about A$35 billion each, which is maybe comparable with renewables, as they will last a lot longer.
      Maybe new developments? Examples on the market?
      China will probably be where anything new comes from. Shellenberger visited a few years ago, and was told ‘no, no, no, not much is happening. It’s very difficult. It’s going to be 15 years.’ Possibly a ruse to discourage western research?

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    Serge Wright

    Aside from the extreme environmental and human cost of extracting the raw materials for the batteries, there is also the question of how to charge the batteries. To solve this problem there are only two apparent solutions.
    1) Use fossil fuels, which will result in more emissions than using petroleum.
    2) Storing excess solar energy in even more batteries to allow electric vehicles to be charged at night with RE, which is a proposition too absurd to consider, meaning we are left only with option 1.

    For those people living in Europe that have governments legislating 100% RE vehicles, good luck !!!

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    Ruairi

    Lithium and cobalt are rare,
    And the Greens who demand them don’t care,
    For those forced from the soil,
    Or child miners who toil,
    Nor their safety, health or welfare.

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    Gordon

    Can’t we just get rid of the UN?

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      Richard Ilfeld

      Well, there’s hope. Mayor Putz just lopped a billion dollars from his police force.
      NYC may be abandoned for somewhere else. The debate to find a news site would probably take
      100% of their energy for years, followed by amove to Chine where most of the world would simply ignore themm

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        bobl

        He’s just accelerating what was already happening due to NY’s unsustainable state tax policies. Wealthy people are mobile people. Having one of the highest state taxes in the continental USA doesn’t help if there is noone living there with the capacity to pay them.

        Covid-19 has removed 24000 NY taxpayers, and going to play out with an abandonment of high rise, and adding out of control crime due to police Force defunding even more people will be driven out. With the people will go the Company HQs eventually.

        The vista is not looking good for NYC.

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        RicDre

        “Well, there’s hope. Mayor Putz just lopped a billion dollars from his police force”

        Once the police are all gone, the protesters will be free to set up an Autonomous Zone in the New York Times building.

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        David Maddison

        If Antifa/BLM take over Manhattan without a police force it will be a similar scenario to “Escape from New York”. Manhattan will be isolated from the world and the Antifa/BLM can create their Marxist utopia. If they’re lucky, they’ll get a once per month helicopter drop of food in Central Park. Alternatively, they can just start eating each other.

        Movie trailer: https://youtu.be/ckvDo2JHB7o

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      RickWill

      Now there is a good idea. Trump has made inroads into their funding but there are others willing to keep this failed organisation funded.

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      Lucky

      To cut Gordon’s knot!
      Or was it the Gorgon’s knot?

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    Dave in the States

    Much of this tragedy is poor economic policy. On the demand side, we find products that could never make it on their own being subsidized. On the supply side we find virtually free labor and low cost production. (not to be confused with productivity). The renewable and EV industries should be being dinged with very high prices for these resources on the supply side and their customers should get no relief from the pain of high costs from tax payers anywhere.

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    frednk

    Lithium is in over supply. Not doing stuff because it is mined somewhere else; what sort of argument is that?

    https://www.afr.com/companies/mining/another-australian-lithium-mine-idled-20200123-p53ty8

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    WXcycles

    There are a lot more hybrids than electrics, it’s hybrid growth which is ‘driving’ the demand.

    Electrics are just more convenient to blame.

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    Dwight Vandryver

    There is no doubt that the global climate is warming. There is no doubt that people living in inner city areas are suffering from pollution generated by internal combustion engines. EVs would seem to be a good solution to these problems. Indeed, they may be in inner city areas to reduce the exposure to particulates and NOx. The Chinese think so, so it has to be good. The efficiency of living under a one party state ensures that sufficient charging points will be provided. The electricity, of course, will still be provided by fossil fuelled power plants. It makes sense in that city areas can breathe nicely, and the pollution caused by the power plants is out-of-town and easily dispersed without much impact on human health. But for long distance travel, the internal combustion engine is still supreme. Why is that? Vehicles based on old technologies are built using, and powered by, plentiful resources, mostly iron ore, coal and oil. New technologies require rare elements such as neodymium for high performance magnets and cobalt for batteries. The rarity is the problem. To produce rare elements in the quantities needed would result in wholesale environmental destruction. Given that there are over one billion vehicles presently operating on this planet, high tech solutions are not the answer simply because of resource limitations and environmental concerns.
    Many moons ago, it was demonstrated that internal combustion engines could easily be converted to run on ammonia. Of course, cylinders of liquefied ammonia would be dangerous. But with today’s technology it would be perfectly feasible to have plug-in cartridges, or packs, of an ammonium salt and an alkali that would provide the gas as needed by the engine. Instead of filling up with petrol or diesel, you would exchange an ammonia pack, automated as to be as easy as using a filling pump.
    Why has ammonia been neglected when the products of combustion are simply water and nitrogen? Because it relies on simple technologies, and in terms of global consumerism, that’s no good. The world’s economies depend on consumerism, and consumerism depends on selling stuff to people who didn’t know that they needed it.

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