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Vegans save a cow, kill 1,000 mice. Eat less red meat, get anemia.

How many sentient mammals died to make that vegan hamburger?  Tasmanian farmer Matthew Evans has added up the inconvenient numbers and written “One Eating Meat”. The death toll for vegetarian foods means vegans kill less cows, but more mice, lizards and ducks.

Preachy vegans should be silenced by new book on true cost of plant-based diets

Susie O’Brien, Herald Sun (paywalled)

For every 75 hectare of peas, 1500 animals die each year, including possums, wallabies, ducks and deer, not to mention many more rodents.

The 200,000 wild ducks killed in one year by NSW rice farmers?

Evans estimates he kills close to 5000 moths, slugs and snails each year in order to grow vegetables at Fat Pig Farm, his property in the Huon Valley.

Apparently beef uses more water, but plants use more brains:

One scientific analysis from the University of NSW quoted by Evans concludes that “25 times more sentient beings die to produce a kilo of protein from wheat than a kilo of protein from beef”.

The sentient beings are mostly mice.

More spent on low iron hospitalisations as meat intake declines

 It’s down with red meat, and up with iron deficiency in NZ  h/t Warwick Hughes

As the amount of red meat Kiwis eat shrinks, hospitalisations for iron deficiency anaemia are on the rise.

And it’s costing millions.

The cost of hospitalisations - primarily due to iron deficiency anaemia – has crept up from an annual $3.2 million to $6.7m over the past 10 years, according to Ministry of Health

On the ABC Evans talks about the effect the book is having on vegans.

What’s a true vegan these days?

 

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181 comments to Vegans save a cow, kill 1,000 mice. Eat less red meat, get anemia.

  • #

    “Vegans save a cow”

    Beef is just too tasty and unless that cow lived in India, it would be eaten anyway …

    81

    • #

      I don’t think that’s the Vegan aim. The aim is to reduce the number of animals worldwide to but a few here and there. Certainly the aim is to get rid of all farm animals.

      Wherever you see Vegan activity, little has to do with animal welfare, just consider how many lost/stolen pets (stolen by PETA) PETA kills each year. Consider how Vegan’s acted towards the Gippy Goat: https://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/news/victoria/gippy-goat-cafe-closes-amid-contant-vegan-activist-abuse/news-story/6ba17ab6d2fbee44a46bd042a242e54d.

      I truly believe that Veganism leads to mental illness and sooner or later all Vegans become irrational beings. Rational beings simply do not behave in the way that Vegans always do in order to further their cause.

      261

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        This is what happens when adults devolve into petulant children….society has allowed poor behaviour to continue way too long….its time to rout all the man-children and self absorbed idiots that PC has allowed to develop unchecked….

        Speaking of further silliness….pumping solar up hill….er…but its brown…..er…..hang on…..

        https://www.energymagazine.com.au/worlds-first-integrated-solar-pumped-hydro-project/

        “After Stage One of the Kidston Solar Project began generating its first revenue in November 2017, Genex is now focusing on Stage Two which will see 270MW of solar power integrated with the Kidston Pumped Storage Hydro Project. With the project including around three million PV panels, it will become the first integrated solar pumped hydro project in the world.

        “The project is located in north Queensland on the site of the historical Kidston Gold Mine and is valued at close to $1 billion.

        “Upon completion, the project will generate up to 783GWh of renewable energy each year and will have a total of more than 3.5 million solar panels.

        “Stage Two of the Kidston Renewable Energy Hub consists of a 250MW pumped storage hydro project and an integrated 270MW solar project.

        “The pumped storage hydro project will utilise two of the mining pits from the abandoned gold mine, which will make up the upper and lower reservoir, powered by the integrated solar farm.

        “During peak power demand periods, water will be released from the upper to the lower reservoir and will pass through reversible turbines.

        “During off peak periods, the water will be pumped back from the lower reservoir to the upper reservoir using electricity primarily generated from the 270MW solar farm.

        “The innovation of the project extends even further, with the integration of large-scale solar providing a world-first example of generating, storing and dispatching renewable energy on demand during peak periods.

        82

      • #
        Analitik

        I truly believe that Veganism leads to mental illness and sooner or later all Vegans become irrational beings.

        Vitamin B12 deficiency is the real manifestation of this. Many vegans are in total denial of the simple FACT that humans normally get the vast proportion of this vital dietary component through meat or other animal sourced food products (dairy,eggs etc), probably as part of the stance that “exploitation” of animals is unnecessary, and do not take the necessary supplements. As a result, they undergo long term deterioration in their mental faculties.

        https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12

        130

        • #
          Latus Dextro

          “In sudden disgust, the three lionesses realized they had killed a tofudebeest – one of the Serengeti’s obnoxious health antelopes.”
          Gary Larsen

          Intelligent design saw to it that homo sapiens is an omnivore. Human dentition permits herbivorous grinding and carnivorous stabbing, cutting and tearing.
          Predictably, homo soyentis , having lived on the tofudebeest of the Serengeti for too long, faded from existence.

          70

      • #
        theRealUniverse

        And to use windmills to kill of the birds and insects. Were doooooommedddd.

        10

      • #
        ColA

        Bemused,

        I did read not long ago that meat and in particular red meat has a specific nucleic? acid not found in any vegetables which they proved is critical to normal brain function and that without this acid there was noticeable deterioration. Vegans and those with a low meat intake were advised to take supplements to make up for the lack of this acid.

        Humans are omnivores, it’s is the prime reason we are not swing in the trees with our cousins!

        It appears most vegans lack the brain power to understand that. Next time you have a vegan ranting at you just ask if they forgot their supplements!! :-) :-)

        30

    • #
      sophocles

      Beef is just too tasty …

      … then it’s got some dietary importance. Nature tends to signal good food as being tasty. At least it did until we discovered sugar and then learned to extract all the other good stuff from it to render it more dangerous than anything else. I’ve also wondered about what we did to deserve silver beet: it’s a lot better for us than its flavour allows.

      I’ve occasionally wondered what roast mammoth would taste like. There were a few around about 12000 – 10,000 YA after the big catastrophe. But I’ve no real desire to try it. Besides, it’s a bit hard to get now; I don’t think the butchers stock it any more.

      I’ve also never had the inclination to go Vegan. The human gut is not totally suited for it. We — as in homo sapiens sapiens — are an omnivore. Our gut from our mouth to the other end, is too simple to be truly Vegan. Nor is eating too much meat good for us. I prefer moderation in everything (including moderation). It’s too easy to incur a dietary deficiency with a diet which leans preferentially, as in totally, one way. So I graze widely, some meat, some nuts and lots of vegetables with lots of variety in those I do eat.

      NZ’s soil is mostly volcanic which means it’s missing a trace element or three (three actually) for our food to be fully healthy. There is no iodine which is a signature trait of volcanic soils. It’s why the NZ Maori particularly favoured the coast. It wasn’t because it made it easier to get around by canoe although it surely helped, but because sea food, particularly kelp, is rich in iodine. So we have iodine added to our table salt as a dietary supplement. It makes the salt a little more bitter than it otherwise would be but you can get around that by using a little less. Having said that, most New Zealanders salt levels are lower than is strictly healthy.

      Non-iodised salt is available for those who want to remain additive-free but it’s not advisable. Into the 1920s, New Zealand was the world capital of thyroid goitre, an ailment caused by a deficiency in iodine.

      Another it is lacking is Cobalt. That mainly affected growing trees at the higher altitudes. Only tussock grasses and Scotch Thistles grew well above about 700m. Aerial top-dressing with added cobalt allowed the higher ground to support forestry well.

      The last is selenium: a Brazil nut every two days satisfies that. It’s good for men’s prostates so the girls don’t need it quite so badly.

      The important one is iodized salt.

      210

      • #

        I’ve occasionally wondered what roast mammoth would taste like.

        You may get to find out since they say that the woolly mammoth may be resurrected by 2020. They have good dna and the elephant is a suitable surrogate.

        60

        • #
          Kinky Keith

          Some have actually tried it when carcasses were recovered from melting ice a couple of decades back.

          Imagine eating something that died 10 or twenty thousand years ago.

          I understand that the experience was priced to reflect the unique situation.

          KK

          60

        • #
          sophocles

          I read about that, it’s what inspired the passing thought. :-)

          30

      • #

        ‘I prefer moderation in every thing, including moderation.’ Lol.
        ‘n we in Oz also need a modicum of iodized salt, among other things.

        20

      • #
        theRealUniverse

        I’ve occasionally wondered what roast mammoth would taste like. Can you just imagine what would have possessed paleolithic man to hunt mammoths? They must have been rather tasty. But knocking them of with rock and spears only…mind boggles.

        10

    • #
      Geoff

      Its not about veganism. Its all about hate. Young people are being taught to hate by the media. Its morphing to social media whereby they are now teaching each other to hate.

      Journalism is dead. The internet has taken away the advertsing $ that paid for real analysis. Gas lighting and fake news dominates to get click bait.

      Blogs now rule for real content.

      Australian manufacturing and farming is being hollowed out.

      Corporates full of scared salarypersons are not going to do anything. They will go down with the ship.

      The government has zip policy settings that can turn the ship to a productive coarse. Their idea is to pump prime private debt at a time of record debt. The opposition by contrast to the terrible LNP is horrific. A choice between “the Russian Front” or “the Gas Chamber”.

      Our universities are now businesses based on milking government backed debt and huge influxes of foreign students. Learning and research is distorted by chasing dollars to feed an ever increasing bureaucracy.

      None of this is ending well. However, end it will. We will simply implode.

      111

      • #
        Latus Dextro

        Geoff, fear not.
        It will end.
        It may end in murderous tears.
        I hope not.
        But end it will.
        This aberrant inhuman and inhumane behaviour will regress to the mean.
        It’s only a question of how long and how unnecessarily, preventably messy it might become en route.
        Global civil war is a luxury we can ill afford.
        If it comes to that the effeminate, effete, affected, virtue signalling corporatist globalists will be skating on very thin eggs.

        60

        • #
          glen Michel

          Well,what goes around…. etc. Back to the start and abiogenesis. Peak stupid with more and more irrational units that coalesce into their chosen hive.I venture that most denizens here will feel quite happy to leave this temporal existence with their individuality intact.

          20

      • #
        Yonniestone

        It was not sight of their blood,
        It came to them every plate,
        With self loathing to make good,
        When the Vegan began to hate.

        They were not easily loved,
        They were pale — a bit out of shape
        When every mind was not moved,
        Ere the Vegan began to hate.

        Their voices were boring and low.
        Clear eyes made them look straight.
        There was always a cone aglow
        When the Vegan began to hate.

        It was loudly preached to the crowd.
        It was sadly taught by the state.
        Every Green spoke it aloud
        When the Vegan began to hate.

        It can’t be genetically bred.
        It can’t even taste great.
        Though like the chilled tofu its said,
        When they went past the use by date
        That the Vegan began to hate.

        40

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      Ninety five percent of the vegans in our midst are youngish women
      What does this tell us ?
      Something simple and fundamental to human nature:
      In this age when so few women have children
      Or very few children
      The natural instinct in women
      Especially young women, to be maternal
      Is displaced & redirected towards pets, chooks, cows,
      And all sorts of other animals.
      Who need SAVING from death.
      This is what it is.
      Understanding this instinct is important.
      But that does not mean accepting
      The political demand that we all be vegan or vegetarian
      Pushed by such mobs as Animal Liberation or PETA etc.

      80

      • #
        Power Grab

        Here’s another factoid I found fascinating: The low-B-vitamin condition that leads to spina bifida in babies could be caused by the use of birth control pills before pregnancy. The pill is associated with lower-than-normal B vitamin status.

        60

        • #
          Bill in Oz

          Unlikely as most vegans women eat lots of Greens
          A rich source of B Vitamins
          But unfortunately they don’t eat many Greenists
          Unfortunately !
          :-)

          30

        • #
          Latus Dextro

          Off the top of my head for I haven’t checked the literature recently, I would be cautious with the generalisation here PG. The CP is associated with a spectrum of maladies. Are we talking about spina bifida cystica or spina bifida occulta? The former, clearly a preventable (by folic acid B9) neural tube defect of aberrational mesenchymal development, the latter not necessarily the case and may be related to a posterior arch defect and failure of secondary ossification.

          40

        • #
          Bill in Oz

          PS PG : I doubt many vegans use the pill.
          The pill is not politically correct in female vegan circles
          It must be done naturally. ( ? )

          20

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      Is this post about veganism ?
      Or is it about the causes of anaemia ?
      In we discussing the causes of anaemia
      I suggest that ( hidden ) bleeding in the gut
      Especially in both meat eating
      Or vegetarian older folks,
      Is a far more important ’cause’ of amaemia.
      And the increased number of people in the older age cohort
      With this health issue,
      Is the reason for the increase in such health care costs
      In New Zealand, in Australia and elsewhere.

      20

      • #
        Bill in Oz

        My golly gosh !
        It’s six hours since I made my comment above.
        And there are 106 comments
        But no one has taken up this aspect of the discussion.
        Have I strayed accidentally into
        An issue of health which is on this blog, un’pc ?

        10

  • #
    Spetzer86

    How many cows would the average farmer keep around if they were equivalent to pets? (Hint: not many) Vegans are, in a way, essentially requesting genocide for the bovine species.

    160

  • #
    Kinky Keith

    Seventy years ago, when I was just a babe, it was very common to have a small backyard garden to supplement food supplies.

    Unlike today, where the only experience of “food gathering” is a visit to the local supermarket, most children could at least see first hand the cycle of planting, looking after and harvesting vegetables and fruit.

    Through no fault of their own modern activists have had no direct experience of this aspect of nature and are the poorer for it. The judgements they make are less reliable because of that lack of experience.

    Good mental health comes from tending the garden but tending the “one true reality” of the mobile phone is a sure path to anxiety and dissociation from reality.

    Politicians love a confused society: so easy to lead and enslave.

    KK

    270

    • #
      PeterPetrum

      KK, i had never thought of it that way before. I am (or was) an agricultural scientist and, although I never actually practiced in agriculture for a living (I was in pest management) I remember vividly during and after the Second World War watching and later helping my father in the garden as he prepared the soil, planted the seeds, tended the young shoots, fertilised and watered them and protected them from a myriad of pests until we could harvest and eat our own vegetables. The years I spent on farms as I worked towards my qualifications in agriculture gave me a deep understanding of where our food supplies come from. I doubt very much if our current vegetarians and worse, vegans, would have any idea of what food producers must do to ensure that a viable crop can be sown, grown and harvested in a way that will provide wholesome and nutritious food for, mainly, city dwellers. And as for “not killing animals”, with my pest management hat on, I can tell them – ‘they’re dreamin’”.

      230

      • #
        Kinky Keith

        Sounds like you’ve been there Peter and have a well above average appreciation for how food and nature relate to each other.

        My grandfather was a mad keen suburban poultry farmer and before the age of ten I had the job of selecting and “dressing” a bird for Sunday lunch.

        Getting away from that tack I think a lot of the blame for the anxiety and disconnect in modern society should be sheeted home to our politicians: particularly from the late sixties.

        Sadly for all of us they discovered that real leadership wasn’t necessary when you could “buy” votes by dispensing lavish wads of society security.

        Currently Australia is led by people who are guided solely by the latest opinion pole rather than good, hard won, common sense.

        Where are our leaders.

        KK

        200

      • #
        sophocles

        Hungry animals have an intelligence and a cunning all their own.
        The sparrows infesting one of the local supermarkets attest to that …

        60

      • #
        Bill in Oz

        And that says to me that the best solution to the vegan/vegetarians is our midst is to encourage them to go bush.
        There the realities of life would be in their faces.
        PS I had this experience myself as an organic farmer.

        50

    • #

      What you’ll find is that many European immigrants back in the 50s pretty much all had backyard vegetable gardens (my parents certainly did) and that tradition has carried on until this day for many. Where I live now in rural Victoria, many residents not only have vegetable, herb fruit gardens, but also have chickens etc, depending on the size of the property. We also grow herbs, fruit and vegetables as best we can.

      100

  • #
    Drapetomania

    “One Eating Meat”

    Typo…
    On Eating Meat

    “..25 times more sentient beings die to produce a kilo of protein from wheat than a kilo of protein from beef”.”

    And that’s being kind and pretending that both have an equal protein value which is bs anyway.

    120

  • #
    Robber

    Surely true vegans grow their own? And carefully remove any pests and take them to a safe place?

    140

    • #
      Environment Skeptic

      I have tried everything else, and now i am a ‘microbiome’.
      I grow herds of Bacillus Subtilis on steamed soy beans (Natto) and the other 95% of me which is comprised of bacteria, virus’s and fungi get to work creating Serotonin for me, K2, neuro transmitters, and and nearly all the enzymes and so forth i need to survive. They love me feeding them Natto :)
      Modern medicine is still coming to terms with the microbiome, the majority.
      Bacillus Subtilis is the ultimate gut herd animal.
      Bacteria in and around our bodies cultivate almost every vital hormone we need to exist and they mop up any excess like excess oestrogen.
      Very elegant.

      “QYP 51: Kiran Krishnan on Microbiome and Gut Health”
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHImRkM96nw

      50

  • #
    Earl

    Why do people who choose a lifestyle that makes them so miserable, seek to impose that misery on every one else.
    In a good socialist society, every one is equally miserable I suppose.

    130

    • #
      el gordo

      There is this religiosity, a universal cultural thing brought about by civilisation, superstitious beliefs and retribution all bundled together.

      The elimination of pigs and cattle because of methane emissions is pure madness, and not supported by hardened Marxists.

      50

    • #
      Latus Dextro

      In a good socialist society, every one is equally miserable I suppose.

      At the risk of repetition:
      “Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.”
      Winston Churchill

      Winston makes the point precisely and elegantly, though I am less convinced by the accuracy. The incumbent misery is never shared equally, it is reliably imposed by the Left on their enemy du jour, in the beginning by political correctness, evolving to the barrel of a gun and concluding with the legion of the dead.

      They ALWAYS fail and they ALWAYS inflict misery. Ultimately murder ensues, as is currently occurring across the West and the wider globe eg. 40,000 annual excess winter deaths in the UK thanks to power impoverishment … declining health … declining jobs, destitution and despair, developing countries trapped in dependent poverty …

      100

      • #
        el gordo

        ‘They ALWAYS fail and they ALWAYS inflict misery.’

        Marxists split from the Utopians in the mid 19th century and then it became the dictatorship of the proletariat after WW1. It all went downhill from there.

        You may have noticed the two world wars were not communist inspired, just an old fashion slaughter festival like in days of yore. Naturally, these combatants quickly acquired weapons of mass destruction.

        One small point, I don’t see political correctness as a problem because it can be quickly overcome with a robust media, the backbone of liberal democracy.

        30

        • #
          Latus Dextro

          Blaming the prols after WW1? Blame elitist inbred ingrates of the League of Nations. The UN is infinitely worse on steroids and benzedrine.

          Oh were we to have a robust media preventing the irretrievable slide into chaos … it would terminate literally every absurd navel gazing preoccupation almost instantly, rid the World of the disgusting backward climatism charlatans, strip Alinsky inspired puppet morons like AOC of their 15 minutes, cleanse the world of deranged theocracies, restore prosperity and liberty, turn politics on its head, turn education on its ass, disenfranchise at least two generations of entitlement deranged semi-delinquents, rid the world of the grievance industry, dis-establish the UN and its multiple pathological organs of global administration-in-waiting. One could go on.
          A robust media … no mean feat and no minor accomplishment. It would be an act of the greatest salvation, indeed, worth praying for.

          The socialist fascists that led WW2 in Germany and Italy are as close be damned to “communist inspired.” Giovanni Gentile, student of Karl Marx was the father of ‘fascism’. It is an extreme Left ideology with the State as a central focus of devotion. The current Left are but a slither of a step removed.

          60

          • #
            el gordo

            The pseudo Marxist consortium in Australia has been smashed up, with a successful coup against Turnbull and a remarkable electoral victory by Morrison. He has the mandate of heaven and dines with the leader of the Alliance.

            Mussolini’s dad was a high ranking communist, a brute of a man, so its no surprise that Benito broke ranks and became a fascist.

            The current socialist combo in Australia is now powerless, a long way removed except in some states. Turnbull had plans to unite Australians, but where he failed Morrison will succeed because he knows how to appeal to the green/left cultural Marxists.

            20

    • #
      Another Ian

      “In a good socialist society, every one is equally miserable I suppose.”

      Except for the top end

      60

  • #
    Bill Posters

    What’s a true vegan these days? People who don’t use soap.

    70

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Need to stay up-wind of them?

      30

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      They buy expensive certified palm oil soap
      with exotic scents…
      Or perhaps live oil soap.
      Such things do exist
      Check out your local vegan ‘Health Food” Store !

      10

      • #
        StephenP

        And how many animals lose their home and lives when native forest is cleared to grow the palm oil?

        20

        • #
          Bill in Oz

          Lots, Lots ! Lots !
          But the palm trees are ‘certified’ Stephen !
          So environmentally aware vegans
          Can use the oil to cook or bathe.
          Mind you I’ve never met a ‘certified palm tree’
          That could explain to me how being certified worked clearly.
          But by all means please continue to ignore my sarcasm .

          20

      • #
        sophocles

        Check out your local vegan ‘Health Food” Store !

        What? They eat soap? Instead of using it?
        I knew they were thick, but not that advanced!
        :-P

        11

  • #
    Latus Dextro

    Now, just where are those damned delicious crickets when you need them?

    Iron deficiency and cognitive functions
    Among the cognitive impairments caused by iron deficiency, those referring to attention span, intelligence, and sensory perception functions are mainly cited, as well as those associated with emotions and behavior, often directly related to the presence of iron deficiency anemia. In addition, iron deficiency without anemia may cause cognitive disturbances. At present, the prevalence of iron deficiency and iron deficiency anemia is 2%–6% among European children.

    Iron deficiency anaemia is the tip of the iceberg of ill health and disease.
    Intellectual cognitive decline, lassitude, inadequate immune function (lowered resistance to infection), inadequate thyroid function the list demonstrating physiological integration is as long as it is devastating.

    Just what the UN inspired Green Death prescribes to facilitate de-population, de-industrialisation, destitution and despair.

    50

  • #
    Serge Wright

    The old addage was that people were vegans either because they love animals or because they hate vegetables and enjoy killing them.

    Interestingly, once people become vegan, them often express a hatred for humans and live in a state of constant violent protest, blockading the streets or invading the properties of innocent families. This group of people also hate work and seek a life of leisure and free welfare. I would suggest more study needs to be done on the affect of veganism on the human brain, especially wrt IQ ;)

    My personal choice for being a meatetarian is not just because I love meat, but also because I hate those vegan greenies :)

    91

    • #
      Turtle

      Nietzschean ressentiment morality. They hate their own species, their own country, their own race… and themselves. Such people should disappear themselves, but instead they conduct a campaign of hate against those who don’t share their nihilistic outlook.

      41

  • #
    David Wojick

    I added a bunch of fun Curry videos to my Climate Change Debate Education blog at http://ccdedu.blogspot.com.

    Discussed here: https://townhall.com/columnists/pauldriessen/2019/07/06/educating-kids-to-debate-alarming-climate-claims-n2549587

    40

  • #
    beowulf

    Delingpole’s solution to global warming — eat Prince Charles.

    https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/07/12/rich-eco-loons-like-prince-charles-should-pay-climate-change/

    At least you wouldn’t be eating a sentient being.

    80

  • #
    pat

    theirABC spends an inordinate amount of taxpayer $$$ pushing the vegan line, usually claiming people are turning away from meat. another piece with Matthew Evans:

    AUDIO: 12min: 6 Jul: ABC BlueprintForALiving: Jonathan Green: On eating meat
    Saturdays at 9am; Repeated: Sunday 4am, Tuesday 11.30am, Wednesday 1am
    Is ethical consumption of meat possible in an age of intensive agriculture and in which animals are bred to be slaughtered on an industrial scale?
    Is veganism the only ethical position? And what is the cost of not eating meat?
    We talk to ***Matthew Evans, former food critic and chef, turned farmer and restaurateur who has grappled with these issues in his new book, On Eating Meat: The truth about its production and the ethics of eating it.
    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/blueprintforliving/on-eating-meat/11274862

    8 Jul: Brussels Times: The world will eat more vegetables by 2028, but also more meat, says OECD report
    by Oscar Schneider
    Global consumption of legumes, root vegetables and tubers is projected to increase by 1.9% annually from now until 2028, according to an OECD-FAO report published on Monday, which also expects the worldwide increase in meat consumption to continue…
    The report stresses that in the next 10 years, the demand for agricultural commodities will depend in particular on the needs of an increasing, wealthier world population.
    In Asia, for example, where per capita incomes should go up sharply by 2028, annual meat consumption is projected to increase by 5kg per capita in China and 4 kg in Southeast Asia, the experts note…
    https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/world-all-news/60259/the-world-will-eat-more-vegetables-by-2028-but-also-more-meat-oecd-fao-report/

    OECD Libarary: OECD-FAO Agricultural Outlook 2019-2028
    Chapter 6. Meat
    https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/agriculture-and-food/oecd-fao-agricultural-outlook-2019-2028_db1359a1-en#page1

    21

    • #
      pat

      nothing to listen to. most is covered in the summaries:

      AUDIO: 10min28sec: 13 Jul: ABC CountryBreakfast: Rural News Highlights
      Presented by Edwina Farley
      (begins with 4Cnrs re-run with Slattery etc): The ABC’s Four Corners program labels a multi-billion dollar program designed to improve water use efficiency as a disgrace…

      4min39sec: Trespass laws attract ire of animal activists (more in the summary than in the audio)
      Animal welfare group Vegan Rising, which disrupted Melbourne’s streets in April, says the Federal Government’s new trespass bill is threatening their right to take action against animal cruelty on farm. The bill would create two new offences for activists that incite people to trespass, damage or steal from agricultural land. The tough new laws are expected to pass through the Senate when parliament returns later this month. It’s something farming groups lobbied hard for, after a number farms became the site of protests and animal thefts when an online map of their location and business details was published last year…

      (ABC despite Australians reducing their consumption of meat, the trend internationally is going the other way. meat not singled out in this summary.)
      Booming meat demand
      Agricultural products face booming demand in the decade to 2028, a new report has found. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) and Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) scenario for the next decade (LINK) foresees a 15 per cent rise in worldwide consumption. Its Agricultural Outlook 2019–2028 reflects growing populations and changing diets in the developing world…

      Cutting down on plastic
      https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/countrybreakfast/rural-news-highlights/11296612

      whilst OECD/FAO report says “annual meat consumption is projected to increase by 5kg per capita in China”, theirABC picks out a different figure:

      10 Jul: ABC: Global food demand to grow by 15pc by 2028, but real prices face long-term decline: OECD
      ABC Rural By Tom Major
      But a robust demand for meat will result in increased herd sizes and an unprecedented demand for animal.
      Urbanisation drives demand
      The outlook shows a global urban population reaching 60 per cent of the total, up from 55 per cent in 2018…

      Australian Meat Industry Council CEO Patrick Hutchinson said the outlook was similar to his organisation’s forecasts.
      “We’ve been working towards an understanding of about a 1–2 per cent increase year-on-year,” he said…
      In Asia, the main driver of growth in beef consumption is the westernisation of diets together with a positive perception among Chinese consumers.
      A predicted increased annual consumption of ***500 grams per capita in China, Australia’s second to third-largest destination for beef, could also benefit local industry…

      FAO assistant director for general economic and social development, Maximo Torero Cullen, said the climate challenge requires further emission cuts from agriculture…
      “The potential risks we are looking at are the spread of plant and animal diseases and growing impacts of extreme climatic events.”…
      https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2019-07-10/global-food-demand-to-grow-by-15-per-cent-by-2028/11289806

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    • #
      Bill in Oz

      Yes the ABC does do that Pat
      The Australian Brainwashing Corporation !
      NOT my ABC
      ( Thanks for that again EG ! )

      50

    • #
      Another Ian

      Pat

      Why are they suprised –

      Meal and potatoes

      10

  • #
    Zane

    Veganism is not very healthy. Aside from protein, cells needs natural fats from animal products, be it meat, cheese, butter, eggs etc. to function correctly.

    100

  • #
    pat

    bad capitalism. good Workers Party in Brazil. bad Bolsonaro. US denialism. fossil-fuel-based populism.

    AUDIO: 13min21sec: 13 Jul: ABC BlueprintForALiving: Jonathan Green: Sinking cities
    The threat to cities from rising sea levels is increasing; according to a recent landmark report, already sinking cities including Jakarta, Houston and Shanghai face immediate and growing danger from devastating floods and severe storms.
    The map of the world, by the end of the century, climate scientists tell us, will be radically redrawn and global cities are at the centre of this dramatic story. So how prepared are urban centres for the impending floods? And what kind of cities might be able to withstand the threats they now face?
    Guest:
    ***Ashley Dawson, Professor of English at The City University of New York and author of Extreme Cities: The Peril and Promise of Urban Life in the Age of Climate Change
    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/blueprintforliving/sinking-cities/11277204

    ***Wikipedia: Ashley Dawson
    Ashley Dawson is an author, activist and professor of English at the CUNY Graduate Center, and at the College of Staten Island, City University of New York. Dawson specializes in postcolonial studies, cultural studies, and environmental humanities with a particular interest in histories and discourses of migration. Since 2004, Dawson has been a contributing member of the Social Text collective. Dawson was co-editor of Social Text Online from 2010-2014 and, by appointment of the American Association of University Professors (AAUP). He has published and edited numerous books, and his essays have appeared in journals such as African Studies Review, Atlantic Studies, Cultural Critique, Interventions, Jouvert, New Formations, Postcolonial Studies, Postmodern Culture, Screen, Small Axe, South Atlantic Quarterly, Social Text, and Women’s Studies Quarterly…

    His recent book, Extinction: A Radical History, published by O/R Books in 2016, examines humanity’s role in the catastrophic extinction of animal life on the planet and argues that environmental devastation cannot be fully understood without a critique of global economics and an interdisciplinary approach that combines science with radical politics, environmentalism, and the humanities. In his latest book, Extreme Cities: The Peril and Promise of Urban Life in the Age of Climate Change, Dawson argues that cities are ground zero for climate change, contributing the lion’s share of carbon to the atmosphere, while also lying on the frontlines of rising sea levels…

    Interviews:
    Why Some ‘Radical Conservationists’ Think We Need to Abolish Capitalism to Save the Animals. Vice, March 10, 2016
    Extinction, “De-Extinction,” and Capitalism Against the Grain
    On domination, extinction, and capitalism’s long history of slaughter This is Hell
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Dawson

    13 Jul: ABC OffTrack: The curse of the plastic nurdle
    These pellets, called nurdles, are now appearing on the famously beautiful beaches of south-west Western Australia.
    Guests:
    Ms Lisa Guastella — physical oceanographer and meteorologist based in Durban, South Africa.
    Peter Moore — marine park ranger for the Department of Biodiversity, Conservation and Attractions.
    Dr Bridget Denise Hardesty — principal research scientist at CSIRO’s Oceans and Atmosphere.

    12

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    scaper...

    The science is in…vegans are tasteless. A whopping, 97% of canibal scientists concur. Any of you sceptics want to prove otherwise?

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    Zane

    Vegans tend to overeat soy and legumes, with negative health implications from the phytates. Fermented soy in moderation is ok, but generally the soy products seen in supermarkets are bad news. Children especially should not have soy forced into their diets.

    80

    • #
      Power Grab

      Ah yes! Phytates! I won’t tell my long story, but removing phytates from my diet was part of the way I cured myself of trigeminal neuralgia. When I searched holistic/TCM causes of it, I found writings that said “low minerals” was part of the problem.

      Another thing that helped was changing my eyeglasses. I had been wearing a pair of glasses that pressed on the trigeminal nerves. I switched back to an old pair that didn’t press on the nerves, and eventually got new glasses that didn’t press on the nerves.

      Another thing that helped a bit was homeopathic remedies. OTC regular painkillers didn’t seem to help at all in less than 45 minutes, but the pain usually was subsiding on its own after 45 minutes of agony. So I’m not sure the OTC painkillers did anything at all.

      Finally, a water-and-salt protocol did the most good at killing the pain. I would put 1/8 teaspoon of sea salt on my tongue, followed by a glass of water. That stopped the pain in its tracks more than once.

      40

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    Zane

    Soy is a huge industry. The old problem, vested interests out to maximize cash.

    40

  • #
    AndyG55

    BEEF Spag-Bol tonight. :-)

    Vegans.. I don’t care if you want to DEPRIVE yourself..

    But stop trying to force your idiotic self-hatred agenda onto others.

    ie, take a long walk off a very short plank !!!

    It all seems to be just another part of the totalitarian control agenda. !

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    • #
      Greg in NZ

      “BEEF Spag-Bol” Andy – that was soooo last night. Tonight was home-made pizzas (naan bread base) with tom sauce / chilli sauce, onion, garlic, red chillies, pepperoni & bacon, broccoli (yes! broccoli!), olives, avocado and lashings of cheese… maybe baked salmon tomorrow night with home-made fries. My guests today were three 20-something Sydney nurses who were gluten-free, vegetarian, pale and very low on – lacking – a sense of humour. Nurses, they don’t make ‘em like they used to.

      50

  • #
    Another Ian

    The Vegetarian’s Nightmare
    (a dissertation on plants’ rights)

    Ladies and diners I make you
    A shameful, degrading confession.
    A deed of disgrace in the name of good taste
    Though I did it 1 meant no aggression.

    1 had planted a garden last April
    And lovingly sang it a ballad.
    But later in June beneath a full moon
    Forgive me, 1 wanted a salad!

    So 1 slipped out and fondled a carrot
    Caressing its feathery top.
    With the force of a brute 1 tore out the root!
    It whimpered and came with a pop!

    Then laying my hand on a radish
    1 jerked and it left a small crater.
    Then with the blade of my True Value spade
    1 exhumed a slumbering tater!

    Celery 1 plucked, 1 twisted a squash!
    Tomatoes were wincing in fear.
    1 choked the Romaine. It screamed out in pain,
    Their anguish was filling my ears!

    I finally came to the lettuce
    As it cringed at the top of the row
    With one wicked slice 1 beheaded it twice
    As it writhed, I dealt a death blow.

    1 butchered the onions and parsley.
    My hoe was all covered with gore.
    1 chopped and 1 whacked without looking back
    Then 1 stealthily slipped in the door.

    My bounty lay naked and dying
    So 1 drowned them to snuff out their life.
    1 sliced and 1 peeled as they thrashed and they reeled
    On the cutting board under my knife.

    1 violated tomatoes
    So their innards could never survive.
    1 grated and ground ’til they made not a sound
    Then 1 boiled the tater alive!

    Then 1 took the small broken pieces
    1 had tortured and killed with my hands
    And tossed them together, heedless of whether
    They suffered or made their demands.

    1 ate them. Forgive me, I’m sorry
    But hear me, though I’m a beginner
    Those plants feel pain, though it’s hard to explain
    To someone who eats them for dinner!

    1 intend to begin a crusade
    For PLANT’S RIGHTS, including chick peas.
    The A.C.L.U. will be helping me, too.
    In the meantime, please pass the bleu cheese.

    Baxter Black

    Coyote Cowboy Poetry 1986

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    • #
      Curious George

      “The practice of non-violence towards all living beings has led to Jain culture being vegetarian. Devout Jains practice lacto-vegetarianism, meaning that they eat no eggs, but accept dairy products if there is no violence against animals during their production. Veganism is encouraged if there are concerns about animal welfare. Jain monks and nuns do not eat root vegetables such as potatoes, onions and garlic because tiny organisms are injured when the plant is pulled up, and because a bulb or tuber’s ability to sprout is seen as characteristic of a higher living being.” [Wikipedia]

      21

  • #
    Turtle

    Debate! Debate!

    Put this guy up against bestiality apologist and “ethicist” Peter Singer now!

    20

  • #
    pat

    UK to charge hundreds of climate change activists
    Washington Post – 12 hours ago
    LONDON — British authorities are charging hundreds of climate change protesters with public order offences in hearings that will take weeks to process

    12 Jul: AP: UK to charge hundreds of climate change activists
    Two courtrooms are being set aside for one day each week for 19 weeks to deal with Extinction Rebellion defendants, who range in age from 20 to 76.
    The Metropolitan Police are pushing for the 1,151 people arrested to face charges after demonstrations brought parts of central London to a standstill in April.
    Dozens of climate change protesters appeared Friday. Many of the cases involve an alleged failure to comply with a police order to remain in an allocated area to minimize disruption…

    Extinction Rebellion says activists are pleased to have a day in court but “the burden this tsunami of cases will place on the courts is unprecedented.”
    https://apnews.com/aa8514a318a94a508f7ce441dad2e08d

    if it comes down to just fines, XR won’t have a problem paying:

    12 Jul: Guardian: US philanthropists vow to raise millions for climate activists
    Fund donates £500,000 to grassroots Extinction Rebellion and other groups, with promise of more to come
    by Matthew Taylor
    Neilson said the three founders were using their contacts among the global mega-rich to get “a hundred times” more in the weeks and months ahead…
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/12/us-philanthropists-vow-to-raise-millions-for-climate-activists

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    • #
      Maptram

      Crown funding has a lot of people looking for funds for Adani protests. According to Andrew Bolt in last weekend’s Herald Sun, Bob Brown is looking for $500,000 to by some land near the Adani mine to set up a protestor training camp

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    • #
      Bill in Oz

      The solution for stopping the Extinction protests is simple.
      Arrest them and do NOT let them out on bail
      Because of the probability of re-offending.
      A few weeks waiting in remand would alsoSort them out mentally.
      I suspect.

      40

  • #
    pat

    12 Jul: Guardian: We were already over 350ppm when I was born
    The devastation is too great. We can’t simply slap solar panels everywhere and call it a day, writes 17-year-old climate activist Jamie Margolin
    by Jamie Margolin
    (Jamie Margolin, 17, is a Colombian American student, author, activist and a founder of the youth climate action organization Zero Hour)
    Many people trace the origins of today’s climate crisis to the Industrial Revolution, when humans first began to burn large amounts of coal, but the crisis’s true roots extend further back to the onset of colonialism…
    That brings us to the next system of oppression driving today’s climate crisis – racism…
    On top of colonialism and racism, the third system of oppression shaping the climate crisis is patriarchy…

    You can take action by joining Zero Hour, a youth-led climate action group that I co-founded. Zero Hour is hosting a summit 12-14 July in Miami…
    Join us! Because the only way to overcome a crisis this big is with a climate action revolution.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/12/jamie-margolin-zero-hour-climate-change

    Wikipedia: Jamie Margolin
    She is also a plaintiff in the Aji P. v. Washington case, suing the state of Washington for their inaction against climate change on the basis of a stable climate being a human right…
    She was part of Teen Vogue’s 21 Under 21 class of 2018. In 2018, she was also named as one of People Magazine’s 25 Women Changing the World…
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Margolin

    11

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      “a stable climate in a human right” ?
      Jamie Margolin needs to be put in a
      Padded Air conditioned cell.
      Now that would give her a ‘stable climate’
      And maybe solve a mental illness problem.

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  • #
    pat

    this video was on the ABC27 page below, but had disappeared when I had to refresh the page:

    VIDEO: 1min33sec: Moms and kids rally for climate action in Washington
    by WoodTV8
    Raquel Martin (Washington DC Correspondent Nexstar Media Group) reports from Washington, D.C. on July 11, 2019.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O81H3aIYGD0

    ***haven’t seen 500 in any of the video/pics I’ve found online. this piece was also on a local Fox channel, which is connected to Nexstar media:

    11 Jul: ABC27: Moms and kids rally for climate action in Washington
    by Raquel Martin
    WASHINGTON – Gathering near the U.S. Capitol Thursday morning, more than 500 moms and kids rallied to urge Congress to take action to stop climate change.
    It was the sixth annual Play-in for Climate Action, where moms and youth climate strikers from 25 states said things need to change before it’s too late.
    Gathering near the U.S. Capitol Thursday morning, more than ***500 moms and kids rallied to urge Congress to take action to stop climate change.
    It was the sixth annual Play-in for Climate Action, where moms and youth climate strikers from 25 states said things need to change before it’s too late…

    Alexandria Villasenor, 14, of California, is leading the charge. She said members of her generation are the ones who will pay the price if nothing changes.
    “We do have a Congress full of climate (change) deniers, and so we really have to push for change,” she said…

    “When I was their age, that was not on my mind and so it gives me hope for the future,” Rep. Donald McEachin, D-Va., said of the youth protesters.
    He was among several Democrats who stopped by the rally.
    “I believe that the environment is the single most important issue of the 21st century,” McEachin said…

    But House action is unlikely to make it past President Donald Trump.
    On Monday, the Republican president said Democrat proposals like the Green New Deal are job killers…
    Activists disagree and they say they’ll be back in Washington for a play-in every summer until their goal is met…
    https://www.abc27.com/news/washington-dc/moms-and-kids-rally-for-climate-action-in-washington/

    TWEET: Jamie DeMarco, Working at the Citizens Climate Lobby, passing state legislation and building political will for Congressional action on climate
    I’m here at the #PlayIn4Climate!
    Kids can’t stay still long enough for a Sit In, so we are having a Play In!
    Thank you @CleanAirMoms for calling for 100% clean energy.
    PIC
    11 Jul 2019
    1 of 2 replies:
    mathewsjw: what you’re promoting is #ChildAbuse, reported to Child Protective Services
    https://twitter.com/JamieDeMarco1/status/1149311085742362624

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  • #
    Maptram

    It’s said that vegans don’t eat honey because it’s produced by animals (bees) who are slaves. If that’s correct, perhaps they shouldn’t eat most vegetables and fruits, because they require pollination to produce the edible part, mostly done by bees.

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  • #
    pat

    not a single mention of CC/CAGW:

    12 Jul: SanJoseMercuryNews: Lake Tahoe fills to the top as massive winter snows melt
    by Paul Rogers
    California’s huge winter snow pack has been melting all spring and summer, sending Lake Tahoe’s water level to its highest legal limit.
    If you visit Lake Tahoe this summer, the beaches might seem a little smaller than they were a few years ago.
    It’s not an optical illusion. Large sections of them really are underwater.

    Dozens of feet of snow that blanked the Sierra Nevada this winter, generated by blizzards from raging atmospheric river storms, have been steadily melting all spring and summer, sending billions of gallons of water rushing downhill and steadily raising the water level at Lake Tahoe.

    Sometime, probably this weekend depending on the exact temperature, the lake’s level will reach its maximum legal limit — 6,229.1 feet above sea level — a point that federal officials maintain by releasing water from the gates of the lake’s only dam — the 18-foot-high Tahoe Dam, near Tahoe City — into the Truckee River. On Friday, the lake was less than an inch from that peak level and still rising.

    The surface of Lake Tahoe, which stretches 22 miles long, has risen an astounding 8 feet since the beginning of 2016, when it hit a low point during California’s historic 5-year drought.
    Put in perspective, all the extra water in the lake now that wasn’t there three years ago is roughly 1 million acre-feet, or 313 billion gallons — enough water to meet the needs of 5 million people for a year. Lake Tahoe’s rise over the past three years is the same as if Hetch Hetchy Reservoir, the main water supply for San Francisco, had been emptied into it nearly three times…

    It also means ample water supplies for towns around the lake, cities like Reno, and farmers from Reno to Fallon, Nevada, all of whom depend on Lake Tahoe every year for irrigation and drinking water.
    This summer will be the third time in the last three years that the lake has come right up to the edge of its legal limit. The last times that happened were 20 years ago, in 1998, 1999 and 2000…

    It’s not just depth. The lake’s famed clarity increased 10 feet from 2017 to 2018, according to an annual report released by UC Davis scientists in May.
    The jump was the largest annual improvement in 50 years, since measurements at the iconic Sierra Nevada lake began in 1968…
    https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/07/12/lake-tahoe-fills-to-the-top-as-massive-winter-snows-melt/

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  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    Going o/t …

    The Andrews govt has kicked off decision making on Victoria’s Emissions Reduction Target for 2025. Have your say!

    https://www.actonclimate.org.au/submission_for_ambition

    [Global Warming]: Reducing Victoria’s Greenhouse Gas Emissions

    Have your say about what Victoria should do over the next five years and beyond to set the State on a pathway to net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050.

    (contains Combet Report)

    https://engage.vic.gov.au/climate-change-reducing-victorias-greenhouse-gas-emissions

    >> Question 2; “The actions that Victoria and others (including the Commonwealth government) are already taking to reduce emissions – including the commitment of the international community, through the Paris Agreement, to limit warming to well below 2°C and to pursue efforts to limit the increase to 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels, in order to avoid the worst impacts of climate change;”

    Q. Are these the key issues influencing what the right targets are for Victoria?
    Are there other issues that should be considered?

    A. Yes. The 2°C target is a non-scientific made up target, and consequentially, so is 1.5°C:

    “All of this is much too complicated for politicians, who aren’t terribly interested in the details.

    They have little use for radiation budgets and ocean-atmosphere circulation models.

    Instead, they prefer simple targets.

    For this reason a group of German scientists, yielding to political pressure, invented an easily digestible message in the mid-1990s: the two-degree target.” (2°C)

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/climate-catastrophe-a-superstorm-for-global-warming-research-a-686697-8.html

    The Vic. Govt. is wasting public money on a fake ‘science’ report.

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  • #
    TdeF

    In Tamil Nadu they boast the ultimate vegans. These are people who refuse to eat any plant which grows below the ground, like most cold climate vegetables. So they live largely on fruit, coconuts, bananas and the like. I have never seen such strangely fat young people. Slim but stomachs which look like the starvation and malnutrition disease Kwashiorkor. Living largely on fructose. It must be very unhealthy. Enormous range of fruit juices though.

    In religion I admired a crowd of men and women in downtown Mumbai near the train station with lovely white dresses outfits and gold braid. My guide said they were a religious sect. Athiests.

    So there are always people who are extreme. Then Global Warming believers where every hot day is absolute proof. The Climate Change religion where every bit of odd weather is proof. Now a new religion, Species Extinction where Darwinian selection is treated as a man made horror story. All species must live forever, except mankind of course. And racism where only whites are racist and therefore despicable.
    This is all manufactured pseudo science, religion, fantasy. And it appeals.

    So send all your money to Al Gore. All that flying around is expensive. The same with Hollywood stars who spend their lives flying around the world while telling poor people not to do so. They are so virtuous, such paragons of moral and social rectitude. My favorite George Burns joke was when he said he was so old, he could remember Doris Day before she became a virgin. Hollywood is hypocrisy central and Climate Change is their favorite topic after MeToo.

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  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    How odd – you place food for herbivores in nice neat rows in a paddock, and then kill those self same herbivores. How about some fences, and/or nets (very popular in wine country) or a greenhouse (where you can add CO2 to make Andy happy). You could grow a crop and have no predation; but that would result in higher production costs. Considering how much food is wasted at all stages between planting and consuming as well as the amount that is just wasted, a slightly higher cost might be better all round. However since cost is the only factor it would never happen.

    17

    • #
      Kinky Keith

      Well I’ll be doggone if I can find a message or link or a comment in there.

      Well done FP. One hundred percent for consistency.

      90

    • #
      Analitik

      Clearly you have never been remotely involved with farming, possibly not even gardening

      120

    • #
      Kinky Keith

      p.s. you can’t put fences around CO2, at STP it’s a gas.

      90

    • #
      Annie

      Fences and nets don’t stop the depredations of mice, rats, slugs and snails, or birds like sulphur-crested thuggish cockatoos, etc. Presumably you would like to eat from time to time Peter F? We need food supplies as do all other species, whether omnivore, carnivore or vegetarian…the latter needing larger amounts and protection in growth from the said mice, rats, slugs, snails, birds, possums, wombats, wallabies, kangaroos, etc.
      Humans are omnivores.

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      • #
        Annie

        This was meant to be a reply to Peter F. at #28.

        30

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        You can have passive defenses against any pest. The point, which everyone has missed is that it would make the food cost more. At present it is so cheap that it is easier to throw it away, which I would suggest won’t happen because cost beats quality and flavour every time

        16

        • #
          Annie

          The point I was making is that there is no defence that is totally reliable. I agree that it is expensive, having spent a small fortune and much energy on netting, but cockatoos and other birds can break their way through the nets and rodents have no problem doing so.
          I have had to sort out cockatoos that entangled themselves in netting, white netting I might add, supposedly visible, and then harvest earlier than best time because rodents and possums still find their way in. It’s a never-ending battle to keep some of our crop…the wild life is lucky to find good pickings here. I don’t spray, etc. and leave stuff for creatures. The birds are loving the worms and insects here. I am glad I don’t farm commercially; it must be a nightmare for those who do and they should not be subject to the nastiness of the more activist moronic vegans (I realise not all vegans should be tarred with the same brush).

          100

        • #
          el gordo

          Sir, you are a worry wart, no offence meant.

          Industrial CO2 is increasing at a rapid rate, the plant life is happy but what about the predators.

          http://www.co2science.org/subject/i/summaries/insectsmisc.php

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        • #
          AndyG55

          ” The point, which everyone has missed is that it would make the food cost more.
          At present it is so cheap”

          And that is AFTER all the defences against pests etc.

          You don’t seriously think they don’t have fences, use pesticides etc in food growing areas, do you ?

          Those defences are THE REASON WHY food is so cheap and plentiful.

          They DO NOT make food more expensive.

          70

        • #
          Graeme No.3

          Passive defences don’t always stop pests. I can think of one glaring example.

          30

          • #
            Bobl

            You could grow stone fruit in a hermetically sealed chamber and q-fly (Queensland fruit fly) would still find a way to infect it*

            10

      • #
        TdeF

        While humans are omnivores, most of our ancestry is carnivore. We have the canines and incisors for ripping and molars for chewing. Australian Ab*rigines were stone age people who missed out on the agricultural revolution in the Fertile Crescent which totally changed human life on earth. Only after the last ice age we went from hunter gatherer to farmer and from acres to the person to people to the acre.

        However to insist now that we should not eat meat is to deny our ancestry. It is on a par with gender self assignment. It is the triumph of intellectualism over life on earth and you get to a vision of the world where all the animals live in harmony, like the absurd animals in Madagascar where the lion eventually ate sushi instead of his friend the zebra. Or the fish in Finding Nemo who were all good friends when in fact almost all fish are exclusively carnivores. Even the sharks were nice.

        Of course the cutest animals are vegetarian Polar Bears. Cuddle up to one today.

        It’s all nonsense. Virtue signalling. Then you get the Jainists in India who wear masks in case a bug would fly into their mouths and die. Oddly these people also believe in reincarnation, so what exactly is the problem? At what point does this all become insanity?

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        • #
          OriginalSteve

          Yes…..the new world order mob are mentally unhinged and demented, and want to force us into a vegie diet…my goodness they are in for a very rude shock….most people will correctly and sensibly tell them to go jump.

          30

    • #
      AndyG55

      “You could grow a crop and have no predation;”

      The IGNORANCE continues to flow from PF’s jibber-jabber.

      Even greenhouse growers need to combat insect and other pests.

      Seems PF has never tried to do or grow anything of his own,

      … so he can only comment with his usual “make-it-up” as he gibbers along.

      90

    • #
      WXcycles

      Peter Fits:

      ” … You could grow a crop and have no predation; but that would result in higher production costs” … However since cost is the only factor it would never happen. …”

      Oh boy, you don’t even realize that occurs all over the place, right now?

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  • #
    WXcycles

    There is not one bit of flesh on earth that does not ghet consumed by something at some point.

    100% consumption of all meat is the natural reality, why on earth should humans forego one of the best nutrition sources there is? Because of a philosophy? Because of a religion? Because of a mass delusion about nothing identifiably ‘wrong’? Because of an imposed mass guilt about some neo-original sin of having the residual canine eye-teeth of a capable predator and meat-eater?

    Sorry, not compelling.

    I’m off to the supermarket to buy a salad and cooked roast chicken then some steaks to make a curry with for later during this rather cold week of mid-winter to come.

    Enjoy your bananas with lentil cakes.

    30

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      Just about to make a lovely lamb stew !
      Lots of veggies as well of course
      Yummmmmmy !

      30

      • #
        WXcycles

        Ah, good choice Bill, I went for two huge slabs of beef, a cabage, carrots, long beans, spuds, red capsicum and parsley, with a cracking curry sauce mix and bay leaves. Beef and vege curry out the wahzoo, I’ll cook ‘er up tomorrow. Definitely the weather for it this coming week.

        Gonna need to use the doona in anger.

        30

        • #
          Bill in Oz

          My lamb stew is ready on the stove now !
          Rough cut pieces of lamb steakFried in olive oil, garlic, onions, carrots, spuds,
          Pumpkin, peas, celery, red Russian kale, parsley,
          Bok choi, red chard, tomatoes and red capsicums..
          And soy sauce and vegetable seasoning added
          With some red wine and black pepper.

          It’s a bitter cold wet windy day here in the Adelaide Hills
          So a couple of bowels of good tucker with some toasted rye bread
          And a glass of good Malbec red !
          Ummmmmm !
          life is good !

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  • #
    Dennis

    The 80 years old concrete barrages at the Murray Mouth in South Australia must be removed to allow the lower lakes and Coorong to return to natural estuarine environment.

    The Coorong is dying because the natural system (tide flows) is blocked.

    Many crops are grown along the Murray-Darling River system but cotton is blamed for excessive irrigation and water usage. But cotton is a most water-efficient crop, with a margin of $400-600 a megalitre – double durum wheat. It is planted in rotation with wheat, sorghum and canola.

    As usual the loudest complaints come from the Greens (Senator Hanson Young) regarding cotton growing and extracting water for irrigation purposes from the river system.

    Too bad about the Coorong estuary system dying, stop the farming.

    50

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      But then the dairy farmers will have no fresh water for their cattle
      And the vineyard growers at Langhorne Creek would also be out of business
      And the city of Adelaide which gets 40-50% of it’s fresh water from the Murray
      Via huge pumps and pipelines
      Might have to drink salty water as well.
      No the Coorong has to die
      Unless it can be saved with more fresh ‘environmental’ water from up stream
      At the expense of other farmers and other environmentally sensitive areas.

      I am being sarcastic here.
      But it is in fact what most South Aussies think.
      If they think about it at all.
      :-(

      50

    • #

      Jennifer Marohasy is good on this.

      30

      • #
        Bill in Oz

        She was till about 2012
        But after moving back up to Qld
        She started taking a big interest in the
        Great Barrier Reef & Peter Ridd
        And has done a good job with that important issue.

        40

  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    On the topic WXcycles – which was how many animals are killed in the production of vegetables etc. All producers balance the costs of production (including pest control) against the expected yield and the farmgate price. If you reduce predation by pests, this comes at a cost, particularly if you are trying to control pests like mice (and using passive measures like moats, barriers and so on) If that cost is too high, then even with the higher yields, you lose at the farmgate. So I’m glad that you are in agreement.

    08

    • #
      AndyG55

      SNIPPED

      (You didn’t challenge his statement, you took the easy way out with a personal attack) CTS

      72

      • #
        Bill in Oz

        Andy please !
        Do not demean this blog
        We can deal with contrarians like Peter Fitzroy
        Without resorting to continual insults

        43

        • #
          AndyG55

          Sorry, I apologise to the eel. !!

          70

        • #
          Kinky Keith

          Hi Bill, are you being sarcastic?
          I think that one of our current problems is the refusal to face reality.

          In this case the writer has only one opinion, and that is that the blog represents a barrier to the beautiful political future detailed by the IPCCCCC and others like AOC.

          The condemnation of his posts by others on this blog has been “unprecedented” even if you leave Andy out.

          The failure to identify this type of constant misrepresentation in the wider community has led to the effective enslavement of the modern world under U.N.control.
          Are we being hypocritical here in not confronting the same type of constant verbalism and misrepresentation that has led to the Global Warming religion.

          KK

          51

          • #
            Bill in Oz

            Actually no.
            I was not being sarcastic
            There are better ways to deal with a contrarian like PF
            Than simply abusing him.
            This blog is not just a conversation.
            It is a permanent record.
            Abusing PF constantly demeans the blog and the record.

            41

            • #
              AndyG55

              PF abuses himself by continually posting naïve, child-minded drivel based on some sort of alternate reality.

              I just point that out to everybody.

              40

            • #
              AndyG55

              What’s with the Neville Chamberlain impersonation, Bill ?

              31

            • #
              Kinky Keith

              “Contrarian”????????

              And Yes, there’s a permanent record, and that’s why in the future we don’t want people to look at his comments and say we messed up by not identifying them clearly for what they are.

              And I’ve detailed what they are on several occasions.

              KK

              30

            • #
              Kinky Keith

              Bill the main issue here for me is that the abuse is constant, deliberate and content free.

              Why should the participants in the blog be abused by the presence of a person who shows, by his activity, a serious lack of respect for our host, Jo.

              KK

              30

              • #
                Bill in Oz

                Yes Keith PF is a pest.
                And almost all that he writes is distracting verbiage.
                But why not leave that to the moderators to deal with ?
                Us posting insults at him, is
                I now suspect exactly what he wants us to do.
                Why ?
                Because iit is a way of discrediting the JoNova blog

                22

              • #
                Kinky Keith

                Bill, it’s not about him being a pest.

                The problem is he is insulting all who use the blog but the bigger issue is that he is the world’s current problem incarnate.

                If we turn a blind eye to that here, where we are searching for the truth we are basically saying to the wider world that we accept the same thing at the levels above like the unipccc.

                Maybe we should just give up?

                KK

                22

              • #
                AndyG55

                We have a group of people, PF being one of them ..

                … that have stated their ABSOLUTELY INTENT on bringing down modern western society

                They LIE they misrepresent, that commit massive fr**d, they subvert science, they use children to push their intent.

                Their agenda attacks the very weakest in society, and stops development in third world countries,

                … denying them the comforts, lifestyle and welfare that western civilisation has built for themselves.

                They are basically EVIL incarnate.

                Sorry, but it is WAY PAST TIME to consider being polite to these people.

                They need to be brought into the light of day by every means possible.

                42

              • #
    • #
      el gordo

      Getting a monoculture out the farm gate and into the market has costs attached, to quell predators.

      ‘These insects include wireworms, slugs, snails, red legged earth mites, aphids, earwigs, Lucerne flea, Rutherglen bug and slaters. Therefore – understanding, identifying and managing these insect pests is critical to establishing a successful canola crop.’

      30

  • #
  • #
    David

    Vegans save a cow

    If the whole world becomes vegetarians and vegans, cows and sheep will become extinct, mice populations will explode.

    00

  • #
    pat

    can’t remember seeing this posted. lengthy, silly:

    12 Jul: ABC: ‘Hasn’t climate change always happened?’ Scientists address the big questions
    ABC Radio Hobart By Georgie Burgess
    Earlier this year we asked what keeps you up at night when it comes to climate change, and the Curious Climate project received hundreds of questions…ETC
    So the ABC Radio Hobart Mornings program took some of your questions to a panel of climate scientists:
    •Michael Grose, CSIRO Climate Science Centre
    •Jess Melbourne-Thomas, CSIRO Oceans and Atmosphere
    •Stuart Corney, Institute for Marine and Antarctic Studies
    •Andrew Lenton, CSIRO ocean carbon modeller

    ‘Hasn’t climate change happened throughout history?’
    This was one of the most common questions we received.
    “Yes, climate has always changed through things like solar cycles, orbit of the earth and natural variability,” Dr Grose said.
    “It’s not a matter of one or the other, it’s a matter of both.
    “The rate of change due to humans is more rapid than any previous examples from things like ice age cycles.”…

    ‘Why do all scientists sing from the same hymn book?’
    Dr Grose and Dr Lenton said scientists relished opportunities to prove each other wrong, but because they see the evidence first hand no scientist could be in denial.
    “If one of us was to prove that climate change wasn’t real there’d be a Nobel Prize in that,” Dr Lenton said…

    ‘Are sea levels actually rising?’…READ ON

    Curious Climate Tasmania is a public-powered science project, bridging the gap between experts and audiences with credible, relevant information about climate change. The project is a collaboration between ABC Hobart, UTAS Centre for Marine Socioecology, the Institute for Marine and Antarctic Studies (IMAS), the Tasmanian Institute of Agriculture (TIA), and the CSIRO.
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-12/scientists-respond-to-climate-sceptics/11299064

    00

  • #
    pat

    Climate change signals part of socialist plot by MAURICE NEWMAN
    The Australian-11 Jul 2019

    12 Jul: Fox News: AOC’s top aide admits Green New Deal about the economy, not climate
    By Adam Shaw
    Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s chief of staff recently admitted that the Green New Deal was not conceived as an effort to deal with climate change, but instead a “how-do-you-change-the-entire economy thing” — a remark likely to fuel Republican claims that the deal is nothing more than a thinly veiled socialist takeover of the U.S. economy.
    “The interesting thing about the Green New Deal is it wasn’t originally a climate thing at all,” Saikat Chakrabarti said in May, according to The Washington Post (LINK).

    He reportedly made the remarks to Sam Ricketts, climate director for 2020 hopeful and Washington Gov. Jay Inslee, who the Post says greeted the statement with “an attentive poker face.”
    “Do you guys think of it as a climate thing?” Chakrabarti then asked. “Because we really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing.”…

    Ocasio-Cortez has called the deal “a wartime-level, just economic mobilization plan to get to 100% renewable energy.” The plan, which would cost trillions, sees the U.S. taking a “leading role in reducing emissions through economic transformation.”…

    In the conversation reported by the Post, Ricketts was reportedly uncertain about Chakrabarti’s statement.
    “Yeah,” said Ricketts, before saying “no.”
    “I think…it’s dual. It is both rising to the challenge that is existential around climate and it is building an economy that contains more prosperity. More sustainability in that prosperity — and more broadly shared prosperity, equitability and justice throughout.”…
    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aocs-top-aide-admits-green-new-deal-about-the-economy-not-the-climate

    TWEET” Saikat Chakrabarti
    They finally got us! The #GreenNewDeal is a plan to solve climate change AND reverse wealth inequality by proactively building the new energy economy in America. That means building solar panels, bullet trains, electric cars, batteries, new smart grids, and so much more.
    11 Jul 2019
    https://twitter.com/saikatc/status/1149430107838304257

    Wikipedia: Saikat Chakrabarti
    In 2015, Chakrabarti “dropped everything” to join the early stages of U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders’ presidential bid…
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saikat_Chakrabarti

    20

  • #
    pat

    behind paywall:

    13 Jul: The West: Bayswater proposes 100 per cent renewable energy target in radical climate change plan
    by Peter de Kruijff
    A Perth council wants to set itself what would be among the most radical renewable energy and greenhouse gas emissions reduction targets in Australia.
    Bayswater council is proposing a 100 per cent renewable energy target by 2030 and to cut carbon emissions to zero by 2040, with some councillors claiming State and Federal government had failed to act on climate change.
    It comes as shadow local government minister Bill Marmion said last night that councils should not get involved in climate change politics …
    https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/bayswater-proposes-100-per-cent-renewable-energy-target-in-radical-climate-change-plan-ng-b881254720z

    11

  • #
    Hanrahan

    Paleopathology and the origins of the low carb diet, by Dr Michael Eades
    If you have an hour to spare it would be well spent watching this:

    https://youtu.be/oyfDsv0t6YY

    I’ve never thought grains were part of the paleo diet. They were forced on the City/States by incessant wars and the need to retire behind defensive walls.

    21

  • #
    el gordo

    Breaking Nooze

    ‘Researchers suggest temperatures on Earth aren’t fluctuating just because of greenhouse gases — clouds and cosmic rays may also be playing a part.’

    Graham Lloyd/Oz

    50

    • #
      TdeF

      And the only Greenhouse gas which matters is water. However the ordinary public does not understand water can be a gas, even if it is in the air.
      So the scam continues. They even have Greta the 13 year old who can see Carbon Dioxide. You have to wonder if she can see clouds too?

      70

      • #
        TdeF

        It was interesting in William Harper’s funny talk where he pointed out that on the cover of his book, Al Gore had digitally removed clouds from a photograph of the United States from space, as they obscured blocked the sun and obscured his view. The irony would be lost on Al Gore. And it’s just so hard to photograph sun blocking Carbon Dioxide, the only Greenhouse gas which matters according to Peace Prize winner Gore. No one has explained why the Nobel Peace Prize was appropriate either. Obviously a meaningless prize.

        70

    • #
      Grseme#4

      Just finished reading Zharkova’s paper EG, and was going to bring three comments of interest to your attention in Weekend Unthreaded, but can do so now if you haven’t read her paper yet. Definitely worth a read – only 10 pages.

      00

  • #
    Bill in Oz

    Charlie is making a right Charlie of himself
    predicting catastrophe unless the Commonwealth
    Takes urgent action to reverse global warming
    WITHIN 18 MONTHS !
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/07/13/we-have-18-months-to-save-world-prince-charles-warns-commonwealth-leaders/
    I confess I used to admire ‘Chuck’ for promoting organic farming
    And for his intelligence.
    Possibly the most intelligent royal
    To say something, ( anything) publicly for 2-300 years.
    (If the others had any brains we did not know
    Because they kept their mouths firmly shut in public )
    But now I do not admire him
    He’s getting on in years
    ( Though younger than me )
    And the stress of being a royal & a prince
    Seems to have addled his brains.
    Or else he being constantly ‘snowed’
    With propaganda.
    Another victim of brainwashing.

    21

  • #
    pat

    it never ends. if only the pubic were awake:

    12 Jul: Reuters: German experts report recommends CO2 price for cars, buildings
    A report presented to Germany’s government on Friday said the transport and building sectors should be set carbon prices as penalties to incentivise savings in climate harming emissions, as Germany struggles to meet its 2030 environmental targets.

    European Union emissions trading (ETS) covers half of all polluting industries such as utilities, but not the two sectors whose CO2 output accounts for significant burdens on the environment, alongside areas such as agriculture and households…
    Germany is otherwise due to miss targets to cut greenhouse gases emissions, of which CO2 is the main one, by 55% in 2030 over 1990, has only achieved less than 30% so far…

    As for the tax option, chiefly hitting car fuels and heating oil, the experts said it would only work if targets were strict and monitored, and that voters should be assured it was used only to fund more carbon avoidance not to boost state budgets.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-climate-change-germany-carbon/german-experts-report-recommends-co2-price-for-cars-buildings-idUSKCN1U7148

    12 Jul: Xinhua: German gov’t advisors call for CO2 price for transport and buildings
    Carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions from buildings and transport should be included in the European Union’s Emissions Trading Scheme (EU ETS) by 2030, according to a recommendation from the German Council of Economic Experts presented to the government on Friday…
    “The current debate offers the historic opportunity to change Germany’s small-scale, expensive and inefficient climate policy in such a way that the pricing of CO2 is at the center of attention,” said Christoph Schmidt, chairman of the German Council of Economic Experts…

    Researchers from the Mercator Research Institute on Global Commons and Climate Change (MCC) and the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research (PIK), which contributed to the report, said that a carbon tax option stood a “higher chance of swift implementation from an administrative perspective” compared to creating a separate emissions trading scheme…

    In contrast, the Association of German Chambers of Commerce and Industry (DIHK) warned against placing additional burdens on German companies through new rules and stressed that climate protection is most effective in a global consensus.
    “The concept that is ultimately selected must therefore at least be compatible with European regulations in order to avoid competitive disadvantages for the German economy,” DIHK President Eric Schweitzer told the German newspaper Rheinische Post
    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-07/12/c_138221986.htm

    00

  • #
    pat

    12 Jul: DiscoverMagBlog: Viking Relics Will Disappear With Climate Change, Study Says
    By Roni Dengler
    Hailing from Norway, Sweden and Denmark, the seafaring pirates best known as Vikings, or Norsemen, raided and colonized Europe from the ninth to eleventh centuries. They also established settlements throughout the Arctic including in Greenland. Now researchers say that climate change is threatening the cultural history of the region, as rising temperatures eat away archaeological relics. The findings suggest Norse Viking artifacts are particularly endangered by climate change…

    For almost a decade, Hollesen has been trying to get a grasp on what will happen to the nearly 6,000 archaeological sites in Greenland as the climate changes. In the last three years, he’s teamed up with other researchers on a project called REMAINS of Greenland…
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2019/07/12/viking-relics-will-disappear-with-climate-change-study-says/#.XSnVduR7nIU

    13 Jul: NPR: Has Your Doctor Talked To You About Climate Change?
    Weekend Edition Saturday by Martha Bebinger
    When Michael Howard arrives for a checkup with his lung specialist, he’s worried about how his body will cope with the heat and humidity of a Boston summer.
    “I lived in Florida for 14 years and I moved back because the humidity was just too much,” Howard tells pulmonologist Mary Rice, as he settles into an exam room chair at a Beth Israel Deaconess HealthCare clinic…

    Then Howard turns to Rice with a question she didn’t encounter in medical school: “Can I ask you: Last summer, why was it so hot?”
    Rice, who studies air pollution, is ready.
    “The overall trend of the hotter summers that we’re seeing [is] due to climate change,” Rice says, “and with the overall upward trend, we’ve got the consequences of climate change.”

    For Rice, connecting those consequences — heat waves, more pollen, longer allergy seasons — to her patients’ health is becoming routine…
    https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/07/13/734430818/has-your-doctor-talked-to-you-about-climate-change

    00

  • #
    pat

    Russia Today has made note! given it’s usually full of CAGW advocacy, that’s a surprise:

    12 Jul: RT.com: Finnish study finds ‘practically no’ evidence for man-made climate change
    A new study conducted by a Finnish research team has found little evidence to support the idea of man-made climate change. The results of the study were soon corroborated by researchers in Japan.
    In a paper published late last month, entitled ‘No experimental evidence for the significant anthropogenic climate change’, a team of scientists at Turku University in Finland determined that current climate models fail to take into account the effects of cloud coverage on global temperatures, causing them to overestimate the impact of human-generated greenhouse gasses…

    The study’s authors make a hard distinction between the type of model favored by climate scientists at the IPCC and genuine evidence, stating “We do not consider computational results as experimental evidence,” noting that the models often yield contradictory conclusions…

    Japanese researchers at the University of Kobe arrived at similar results as the Turku team, finding in a paper published in early July that cloud coverage may create an “umbrella effect” that could alter temperatures in ways not captured by current modeling.
    https://www.rt.com/news/464051-finnish-study-no-evidence-warming/

    30

  • #
    pat

    more garbage from the police. what if CAGW sceptics blocked the roads in the UK or pro-coal protesters blocked the Brisbane streets, would this be the response?
    BBC is right up there with The Guardian cheer-leading them on:

    12 Jul: BBC: Extinction Rebellion: Disruption expected at Bristol climate change
    Police are warning of potential disruption in Bristol due to planned action by climate change activists.
    Extinction Rebellion, which blocked London’s Waterloo Bridge earlier this year, said it plans demonstrations all next week.
    Avon and Somerset Police said it could involve more than 1,000 people…

    Ch Insp Mark Runacres said the protest could involve the occupation of Bristol Bridge in the city centre…
    “We’re looking to work with the organisers of the protest to manage and mitigate the impact that creates for the city.
    “Bristol will be open for business as usual but there’s likely to be an impact, particularly for those who use the routes across Bristol Bridge. Increased journey times are likely because of the congestion that will be caused.

    “Any unplanned and lengthy road closure could impact on the ability of emergency services to respond to incidents and we and our partners are factoring this into our plans so we can continue to keep the public safe.”…
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-48969340

    30

  • #
    pat

    every photo stage-managed:

    12 Jul: BuzzFeed: These Pictures Of Activists Begging You To Take Climate Change Seriously Are Intense
    Extinction Rebellion has made a name for themselves with their disruptive protests in Europe. As they ramp up in the US, here’s what Americans can look forward to seeing.
    by Hayes Brown
    Since last year, activists with the climate activism group Extinction Rebellion ***have been grabbing headlines*** across Europe for their disruptive protests…
    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/hayesbrown/15-pictures-extinction-rebellion-climate-protests-europe

    10

  • #

    I like my vegetables after the available energy has been concentrated by cows, pigs, chickens, and turkeys. Ever wonder why in nature, vegetarians are at the bottom of the food chain? There’s a lot more energy available by eating a vegetarian than there is by eating vegetables.

    50

  • #
    Zane

    Maybe the Vegans will eat the Greens… :) .

    01

  • #
    JCalvertN(UK)

    Consider the lettuce leaf.
    Or rather an entire truckload of lettuces. What does it weigh? How many people does it feed? How quickly must it move to get the produce from field to supermarket whilst still fresh? What is the carbon footprint of the lorry trip? What is the carbon footprint of the greenhouse it was grown in? What else could have been grown in the space it occupied?

    20

  • #
    Carbon500

    Vegans are getting a lot of unjustified flak on this thread, yet no-one comments on the animal welfare issues which undoubtedly lie behind the reasons why some people eschew meat from their diet. I’m not a vegetarian or vegan, but I know a lady who is, and believe me, she’s not a strident placard-waving activist. She’s a scientifically literate former medical laboratory scientist, she’s nearly 70 years old, and in good health. I’ve never discussed with her why she’s a vegan; it’s not an important issue.
    Before going on, I need to point out that in my young years I was raised in a farming community, and my father worked on a farm as a stockman – please bear this in mind when reading my comments. Ill-founded sentimentality doesn’t drive my thinking.
    The European Union (EU) permits the transport of live animals across its borders, and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA) informs us that every year millions of farm animals including calves and sheep are transported all over Europe for further fattening and slaughter. Many suffer from stress, exhaustion, thirst and rough handling – not my words; these are the views of RSPCA inspectors.
    The EU was responsible for the closing of many small abattoirs serving local communities in the UK. This was because of ever increasing costs necessary to comply with EU-imposed building alterations and more. In this country (England), many a butcher slaughtered their own livestock on the premises. Because of this, animals were not dragged in trucks for miles to industrial slaughterhouses.
    Crucial to animal welfare is humane slaughter. Non-stun slaughter is permitted in the UK on grounds of religion. It is claimed that rapid and expert transverse incision with a knife of surgical sharpness severs the major structures and vessels in the neck, causing an instant drop in blood pressure and immediately resulting in unconsciousness. The claim is also made that this renders the animal insensible to pain, dispatches and exsanguinates in a swift action, and fulfils all the requirements of humaneness and compassion.
    Scientific examination of the process has clearly demonstrated that this is not the case. In addition to the carotids, extra arteries run through the vertebrae to supply blood to the brain. These are not cut during slaughter – instead, blood flow increases over four-fold in these arteries and brain activity can persist in a calf for over one and a half minutes after its throat has been cut. It has also been shown that most sheep can take almost half a minute to lose brain responsiveness. A vet I once worked with took the view that the only humane method of slaughter is by electrical or mechanical stunning, followed by immediate bleeding out. A conscious animal may choke on its own blood for half a minute, which is clearly cruel – his words, not mine.
    I remember a conversation with a slaughterman who’d been accidentally electrically stunned at the abattoir where he worked. He described how ‘everything turned blue’, and how he’d been revived in a nearby room – the efficacy of proper stunning demonstrated by an unfortunate accident in a human subject.
    Animal welfare issues such as these could easily be remedied, but politicians have little interest in such matters.
    Out of sight, out of mind – nicely packaged little chunks of meat at the supermarket, but no concern as to how it got there.

    10

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