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Electric cars are perfect for socialists: Labor plan boosts Big-Gov, but worse for CO2, pollution, coal use, and grid

Holden Volt, Electric Vehicle.

Labor’s electric car plan means higher emissions, more pollution, more coal use, and threatens the grid but it’s great for socialists.

Fantasy-land: Labor wants half of all new cars sales to be EV’s by 2030. That’s a radical change in a big country that loves its cars and drives great distances. Last year only 0.2% of new car purchases were EV’s. Our grid is already struggling, and extra charging cars would push it over the edge and may add something like $20b a year in extra network and generation costs.

This makes no sense on so many levels: in Australia EV’s are 80% fossil fuel powered and over their lifetime they cause more pollution than internal combustion engines.

Electric Vehicles produce more carbon emissions if the grid that charges them is powered by fossil fuels.

The results reveal that the energy consumption and greenhouse gas emissions of a battery electric vehicle production range from 92.4 to 94.3 GJ and 15.0 to 15.2 t CO2eq, which are about 50% higher than those of an internal combustion engine vehicle, 63.5 GJ and 10.0 t CO2eq. This substantial change can be mainly attributed to the production of traction batteries, the essential components for battery electric vehicles. (Qiao, 2017)

… an electric car recharged by a coal-fired plant produces as much CO2 as a gasoline-powered car that gets 29 miles per gallon (12.3 km/L).” (Sivak, 2017)

In a coal fired country, EV’s achieve nothing for carbon emissions, but over their lifecycle, they’re worse for human toxicity, freshwater eco-toxicity, freshwater eutrophication, and mineral resource depletion. (Hawkins, 2012).
Holden Volt, Electric Vehicle.
EV’s are so useless for the environment you might wonder why Labor and the Greens love them. Take your pick:

  1. Labor Green policitians are honest but stupid.
  2. Labor Green politicans don’t care less about the environment but want a great socialist car.

With our coal fired grid and long distances the only place on Earth less suited to EV’s is Antarctica, where it is too cold for the batteries to work and where people die when they run out of “fuel”. Although at least Antarcticans won’t have to worry about extreme heat setting their batteries on fire.

Electric Vehicles in Australia are 80% powered by fossil fuels

Unless our grid power goes nuclear the electricity draining into these cars is 60% coal fired, 20% natural gas and diesel powered and 20% “renewable”. The coal percentage would presumably be even higher if they get charged at night, like most electric vehicles surely are. (Figures from Dept of Environment and Energy)

99.8% of Australians don’t want an EV

This is a wild transformation. Currently 499 Australians out of 500 choose anything but an EV:

Behyad Jafari, chief executive of the Electric Vehicle Council which worked with Labor on the plan, said EV sales in Australia totalled 2216 last year, or about one in 500 cars sold. – Peter Hannam, SMH

As I said with the Greens policy. Only one in 4000 cars currently on the road in Australia is electric:

There are about 20 million cars currently registered in Australia. The total car pool of all electric vehicles sold here since Australia was federated is about 5,000 cars, making EV’s 0.025 per cent of all cars on the road. You can see how much we love them.

Each electric car needs about $2000 per year in extra network and generation:

The Australian Energy Market Commission (AEMC) released a warning in 2013 that electric cars will cost a lot more than just the purchase price and the electricity:

Electric vehicles in particular are another new “appliance” which is set to place new demands on Australia’s power system. This review has found that each electric vehicle could impose additional network and generation costs from $7500 up to $10,000 per vehicle over the 5 years from 2015 to 2020 in the absence of appropriate pricing signals and efficient charging decisions.

Who pays for the extra generation capacity? Under current market arrangements all consumers would have to pay this extra cost regardless of whether they owned an electric car. Using the AMEX figures, if half our 20 million cars were electric that would add another $20 billion dollars a year to network and generation costs (and that was in 2013 prices).

New “fat” batteries on EV’s draw so much current we need a whole new grid:

New bigger batteries need two days to charge at 7kW which is like adding “three new houses to the grid” and that’s the good option. If consumers want to fast charge (who wouldn’t) the 50kW option is like adding “20 homes”. (Vector, New Zealand Report 2018)

Ten million cars fast-charging at the same time would be like adding 200 million homes to the grid. Psycho.

EV’s are perfect for socialists because no one wants them without subsidies

All around the world consumers need lavish subsidies and rewards to be coerced into buying EV’s. Governments have to offer subsidies in China, India, Japan, Denmark, Norway and practically every country on earth.  In South Korea the subsidy is something like US$12,000. In Norway electric vehicles are exempt from purchase taxes (which are extremely high for other cars). They’re also exempt from the annual road tax, all public parking fees,  and toll payments. How much icing does that cake need? A lot: Sales of EV’s collapsed from 2000 cars to just 32 cars in Hong Kong when subsidies were withdrawn.

Last year, Australia’s Electric Vehicle Council predicted more than three million electric vehicles could be on Australian roads within 12 years (that’s along way short of ten million). The council wants $7000 tax breaks for buyers of electric vehicles.

EV’s in Australia just cost too much.

The Mitsubishi iMiev arrived in 2010, with a range of just 150km and a hefty price tag of $49,000. The Nissan Leaf was about three times as expensive as a comparable petrol-powered car. The Holden Volt cost $60,000. Only the super-rich could hope to afford the more glamorous Tesla Roadster at more than $200,000.   — Sam Clench, News.com

Electric vehicles are the perfect car for socialist governments. It’s another industry destined to be totally dependent on Big Government. EV cars and their owners are born Big Gov lobbyists. They form part of a club to cheer on other big-gov dependents.

The ALP are simply copying the Greens fairytale plans and multiplying by half. But make no mistake, the Labor plans are obscenely ridiculous all on their own. The job of the Greens is to make extreme Labor policies look “moderate” in comparison with something twice as stupid.

h/t Dave B, Pat

Other posts on EV’s:

 REFERENCES

Hawkins, R., Singh, B., Majeau-Bettez, G.,  Strømman A.H. (2012) Comparative Environmental Life Cycle Assessment of Conventional and Electric Vehicles, Journal of Industrial Ecology,  DOI: 10.1111/j.1530-9290.2012.00532.x

Michael Sivak and Brandon Schoettle (2017)  University of Michigan’s Transportation Research Institute.

Qiao et al (2017)  Cradle-to-gate greenhouse gas emissions of battery electric and internal combustion engine vehicles in China  Volume 204, 15 October 2017, Pages 1399-1411  https://doi.org/10.1016/j.apenergy.2017.05.041

Australian Energy Statistics, Electricity generation update 2017-18 and 2018

Vector Network Integration report, 2018

Images: mmurphy and Jeremy

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Rating: 9.2/10 (88 votes cast)
Electric cars are perfect for socialists: Labor plan boosts Big-Gov, but worse for CO2, pollution, coal use, and grid, 9.2 out of 10 based on 88 ratings

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452 comments to Electric cars are perfect for socialists: Labor plan boosts Big-Gov, but worse for CO2, pollution, coal use, and grid

  • #
    John Watt

    At current Ausrralian electricity prices EVs are cheaper to run than petrol. Charging stations in built up areas could utilise the unused capacity of street light circuits during daylight hours. However that is where the positive aspects stop.
    We need plans costed for regional charging stations,for battery disposal and for affordable EVs.
    These questions need answers before anyone,including PMs in waiting make undeliverable promises.

    1042

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      Who wants to do . this dopey grand plan ? Nobody that i know.

      And the folk who boast about wanting to do so, don’t want to pay for the electrical grid upgrade needed.

      It’s all bollocks mate !

      473

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        One motoring body seems to have jettisoned all common sense and thrown its lot in with the loopy left…. Time to cancel your membership…..at the rate they are going, driving yourself will be a thing of the past.

        They are idiots actually – who needs roadside assistance, insurance or other services when you have a car-as-a-service model ( a form of utopian socialism where nobody owns anything ) and no need for parking towers etc? Councils lose out – no parkung spaces needed, no parking fines, no one speeds because they cant ( good bye highway plod ), and lose your credit card amd youre stranded…..

        No thanks – i like personal freedom…

        383

        • #
          soldier

          As usual the zealots have ignored the practicality prblems with charging stations.

          1. The Tesla fast charger already draws over 400 amps. (By comparison, a domestic wall outlet (power point) is rated at 10 amps and air conditioners at about 25 amps.) On the figures above the proposed faster chargers (ten minute charge) would draw six times this? Maybe 2,400 amps. That’s a seriously high current flowing through the system. I imagine heat control could be a serious issue, particularly with a bank of these at recharging stations.
          Multiply that by the ten or so chargers that would be needed to replicate current petrol filling stations and each forecourt would need its own power station next door. Coal fired power station of course if you wanted to be able to fill your car 24/7.

          2. A 450kW charger is all well and good. What is not mentioned is the infrastructure – wires, transformers, switchgear etc. that would be required to deliver this amount of electricity. And it’s not only a single charger; a petrol station may have 10 bowsers i.e. can refuel 10 cars at a time. To recharge 10 electric vehicles simultaneously you are looking at 4.5 – 5 MW in total. To put it in perspective, that is the aggregate power supply to about 300 houses. A small power station for each “petrol station”. Even third in line for a 10 minute fill-up is too much wasted time.

          3. All this ignores the fact that, even without electric cars, the demand for electric power increases by over 2% per year. (that’s over 24% growth in 10 years).Where is the plan for that growth in generator capacity?

          4. And remember all electric cars are coal fired with their emissions repositioned to the power station.

          172

          • #
            John PAK

            Soldier’s comment is pretty fair. My neighbour installed a 7kW A/C system. 29 Amps at 249 V is too much for single phase so she then had to purchase a 1-phase to 3-phase converter (AU$10k). For comparison my HWS draws 16 Amps at 240V so ~3.8kW.
            My local transformer serves 4 properties and is already close to its power limit so if any of us purchased a Tesla car we’d be expected to pay for the transformer upgrade which is well over the $10k mark. I wonder how long those 400 Amp fast chargers take to recharge a car.

            It’s not that easy to supply an extra 400 Amps to every street that has a Tesla. NSW is already struggling on a hot summers after-noon to keep up with demand.

            Perhaps the Occasional Cortex variety have not thought this one out or perhaps an entirely new way of generating electricity is in the offing. My electronics tutor comments that Smart Meters are all about forcibly turning off your appliances at certain times of the day so that “your” electricity can be directed else-where. When the Short-on common sense man says we need big household batteries maybe he knows something he’s been told to with-hold from us prior to the federal election.

            30

      • #
        Yonniestone

        I hope the grid upgrade doesn’t involve wind power, today three wind farms I passed in Victoria’s west were stopped dead no generation all day and looking at the last one at 5pm near peak demand I wondered how the lights stay on.

        I wonder if the people pushing this insanity realise the torches pitchfork wielding peasants carry don’t require electricity to work?

        413

      • #
        Another Ian

        “Physics Reveals ‘Green’ Energy Sources Are Unrealistic And Unsustainable”

        https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/04/01/physics-reveals-green-energy-sources-are-unrealistic-and-unsustainable/

        111

        • #
          Another Ian

          And the comments!

          71

        • #
          Vladimir

          About Physics – capital P :

          How can an electric battery which weighs 500 kg can win the race of efficiency against petrol tank which weighs on average 30 kg ?

          Every EV with a single driver carries an additional weight of 7 passengers.

          151

          • #
            John PAK

            Tesla Inc are in the process of purchasing Maxwell Tech who sell super-capacitors that are being used as big rig cranking modules for cold mornings. Tesla will probably replace a quarter of the Lithium batteries in their sports cars with light weight capacitors. When coasting downhill the motor will act as a generator and recharge the capacitor bank. At the charging station the capacitors will fully recharge in a couple of minutes.
            The Top Gear comparison of the Lotus Elise against it’s electric Tesla cousin highlights the mass problem of Tesla’s car. Capacitors will help redress this problem.
            Of course this does not help the power station or current-flow in the lines to the charge-stations.

            40

    • #
      Crakar24

      John street lights wont pull the current a battery will…….i love the smell of melting plastic in the morning………stop talking smack john

      221

      • #
        Greg Cavanagh

        This was going to be my comment as well. The street lights don’t draw much power, so the cabling is light duty. The amperage draw from a recharging vehicle is significantly higher than what the existing cables can handle.

        100

    • #
      Hanrahan

      At current Australian electricity prices EVs are cheaper to run than petrol.

      Much of that would disappear if petrol was untaxed, as electricity currently is. Besides there are two fuel economy technologies soon to hit a showroom near you – Electronic valves which allow constantly variable valve timing and taking cylinders off line. The other is compression ignition petrol engines, These promise still more economical engines which, when coupled with hybrid technology [far cheaper than batteries and performance enhancing] will set a high bar for EVs to compete against.

      But can governments afford to give EVs a permanent tax holiday? Of course not. The family sedan is a taxation cash cow for both state and federal governments. They absolutely cannot afford the long term subsidies and loss of tax revenue they currently suffer on each EV. Once EVs are fully taxed, as one day they must be, there will be absolutely no economic justification for owning one.

      240

      • #
        Sceptical Sam

        At current Ausrralian electricity prices EVs are cheaper to run than petrol.

        Rubbish.

        Show me your figures.

        Here are mine:

        Hyundai Ioniq all electric

        Cost: $49,253 – $54,078.
        https://www.hyundai.com.au/cars/blue-drive/ioniq/electric#charging
        Battery, 88 kW
        Range: up to 230km /charge

        Cost to home charge: 88 kW+ 9kW* = 97kW @ 28c/kWh = $27.12

        Cost per Km = 11.8 cents/km

        Note: * allowance for approx. 10% power loss per charge
        https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360544217303730

        Compare to Toyota Yaris Ascent Petrol/manual

        Cost: $15,990 driveaway
        https://www.toyota.com.au/current-offers?model=yaris
        Fuel consumption = 5.8 litres/100km = 0.058l/km

        Cost/km: $1.35/litre x 0.058 = 7.8 cents/km.

        https://www.fuelwatch.wa.gov.au/fuelwatch/pages/home.jspx

        That’s a 50% advantage to petrol.

        I’ve ignored depreciation and opportunity cost. Hold on to your hat if you decide to add that in.
        Electric = shmetric

        442

        • #
          Sceptical Sam

          Hi Hanrahan

          This was not a crack at you. I seem to have managed to reply to you when it was supposed to go to John Watt at #1.

          :-)

          80

          • #
            Hanrahan

            Never thought it was. You supported me.

            60

            • #
              Sceptical Sam

              Fortunately Hanrahan, you’ve left me a little spot here (close to my original post) where I can make a correction.

              Firstly, I need to thank John Watt for his correction on the capacity of the Ioniq’s battery. I misread the size of the Ioniq’s battery. I said it was 88kW. John Watt said it was 48kW.

              In fact, ironically, it seems we were both wrong. Apparently, it’s 28kWh!

              https://www.hyundai.com.au/cars/blue-drive/ioniq/specifications-ev

              Now, please stick with me while I bring these numbers together to give a comparison on a weekly basis of major costs for an Hyundai Ionoq (all electric) vs a Toyota Yaris Ascent (petrol) – assuming 12,000km driven per year. Based on the RACWA’s methodology:

              https://rac.com.au/car-motoring/info/buying-a-car/running-costs#/12cc3b6a-8ca1-497d-89f4-4ca6c099e71d-pane-1

              Hyundai Ioniq: Electric

              Range = up to 230km in ideal conditions; Battery = 28kWh; Price Aus$49,000 to $54,000 (use $52,000)

              Costs:

              Costs per week for electricity at 3.8 cents per kilometer = $8.77 (round to 9.00)
              Cost per week for depreciation over 5 years (assume mid-price of $52,000) = $133.00
              Cost per week of money at 4% per annum = $40.00
              Cost per week to service vehicle = $0.00
              Insurance costs per week = $30.00

              TOTAL weekly costs = $212.00

              Toyota Yaris Ascent petrol

              Fuel consumption = 5.8litres/100km; Price = Aus$15,990

              Costs

              Costs per week for fuel (ULP) at 7.2 cents/km = $16.62 (rounded to $17.00)
              Cost per week for depreciation over 5 years = $52.00
              Cost per week of money at 4% per annum = $13.00
              Cost per week to service vehicle = $6.00
              Insurance costs per week = $14.00

              TOTAL weekly costs = $101.00

              Cost differential = $212 – $101 = $111 per week.

              Why would anyone go electric?

              90

          • #
            paul courtney

            Sceptical Sam: Thank you for the numbers. John may have wanted to make the point that EV enthusiasts have done -zero- planning, leaving us totally unprepared for EV at any scale. But his “Ev’s are cheaper than ICE” is hogwash, and you showed why. Goodo

            120

          • #
            Sceptical Sam

            “And EV maintenance is ⅓ lower than that of a comparable gas car.”

            2nd sentence, last para below:

            https://www.pluglesspower.com/learn/tesla-model-s-charging-home-public-autonomously/

            In my analysis above I used 0 maintenance cost for electric. That’s clearly incorrect. Perhaps a figure of $4/week for the comparison would be better.

            00

        • #
          Spetzer86

          Gas is $2.49 USD ($3.49 Australian) per US gallon (3.785L) in the middle of America this AM. But, hey, the difference in price is just your tax dollars at work, right?

          100

          • #
            Bill in Oz

            Spetzer, Unleaded petrol is what you mean by “gas”

            But here in Oz we use the word ‘gas’ to mean LPG..

            And LPG which is what I drive in costs 76.9 cents er liter here where I live in South Australia.

            So for LPG ( gas ) the cost is far cheaper again than using EV.

            71

            • #
              Bodge it an scarpa

              Problem is, Bill from OZ, LPG for automotive use is being phased out my most fuel retailers in Australia.

              10

              • #
                PR Mann

                Remember the subsidy to convert your car to LPG ? And now it’s over for the gas. Another terrible waste of government money

                30

        • #
          Dennis

          There would be no saving on fuel cost until the premium price paid for an EV was recovered by fuel cost savings.

          Government would tax electricity as liquid fossil fuel tax revenue declined.

          And the cost of replacing the battery bank, I understand that 8 years is typical warranty period, must be taken into account before comparing running costs.

          140

          • #

            I do not believe the 8 years battery life in an EV for someone that recharges regularly. Life depends on usage. I am retired and have a Subaru 15 years old and 330,000 km on the clock. Taking and watching grandkids at sports eats up the km which no EV could do- try ging to a surf carnival 150-200km away then try and come back home in the dark. I get about 2 years from a RACQ lead acid battery. The battery in my ride-on mower (used for about 1 hr every two weeks) lasts about 3 years. If your Li-ion battery does not catch fire during recharging I suggest max. 4 years life. The quicker it is recharged the more likely to over heat and catch fire. Electric only vehicles will never catch on in Australia. Even now there are few LPG only vehicles. Most are dual fuel because you can not get LPG everywhere.
            There maybe a place for hybrids. I believe most big car companies are concentrating on these like Toyota with the Prius.

            30

          • #
            Philip

            Another factor to consider is the second hand market, and hence indirectly the depreciation of that shiny new EV. If you are considering buying a second hand EV, say 6 years old, you must consider the cost of replacing the (very expensive) battery pack in the next few years. But how many years? Hence, what is the car actually worth? An ICE has a much more predictable life span, particularly if it has a complete service record, and the life span is a lot longer than 8-10 years of normal use. I’ve never yet had to recondition a car engine, but I would for sure have had to replace half a dozen battery packs if I had used EV cars the same way. Worse for the EV’s the cost of a full engine recondition is a fraction of the cost of a battery pack. So, as things stand at the moment, the ICE is much better value.

            30

        • #
          • #
            Dennis

            1. Add the replacement cost of the battery pack in around 8 years.
            2. Add the premium price paid for EV compared to an ICEV and what saving in fuel cost is there?
            3. Add the depreciation in EV resale value as the battery pack replacement time approaches.
            4. Add the government tax on electricity for recharge EV to replace fuel tax revenue.
            5. Consider the 80 per cent recharge taking up to 1 hour each time adding to travel time on longer journeys.
            6. Consider the additional nights of accommodation because of recharging delays.

            If you are prepared to pay a hefty premium for an EV go for it.

            190

            • #
              Peter Fitzroy

              So a Subaru Liberty, according to Canstar costs around 2 grand a year which after 8 years is 16 Grand or thereabouts.
              Now for your travel woes. Are you suggesting that you drive more than the recommended 2 hours without a break? Your argument is irrelevant.

              318

              • #
                Dennis

                In any period of… A driver must not work for more than a maximum of… And must have the rest of that period off work with at least a minimum rest break of…
                5 ½ hours 5 ¼ hours work time 15 continuous minutes rest time
                8 hours 7 ½ hours work time 30 minutes rest time in blocks of 15 continuous minutes
                11 hours 10 hours work time 60 minutes rest time in blocks of 15 continuous minutes

                National Heavy Vehicle regulations

                120

              • #
                Peter Fitzroy

                we are talking about cars, Dennis – can you stay on topic for a bit?

                416

              • #
                Dennis

                So Peter, driving heavy transport is not relevant, why are those drivers not required to stop every 2 hours as you posted?

                You are worse than a bush fly to keep up with.

                111

              • #
                AndyG55

                “Are you suggesting that you drive more than the recommended 2 hours without a break? Your argument is irrelevant.”

                DUMB, irrelevant comment yet again from pfutz.

                Many people drive far longer times than that. And their breaks are 10 minutes max

                Used to do Sydney-Melbourne and back with two drivers in two days. Try that in an EV.

                Lived out at Parkes for a while too, EVs would be totally useless out there.

                You are living in a FANTASY world, pfutz, like the FANTASY of CO2 warming.

                163

              • #
                crakar24

                I love this guy he is a crack up………….he thinks you can re charge your EV at 25C/kwH when the best rate going around is nudging 40 LOL

                80

              • #
                Gee aye

                Hey Craker… you worked out that thing about weight loss by breathing yet?

                It is not as hard a concept as the massive wasted energy in fossil fuels.

                37

              • #
                AndyG55

                “the massive wasted energy in fossil fuels.”

                Ok, so why WASTE even more of that fossil fuel energy by building wind turbines and solar panels or EV batteries.

                You cannot build any of them without using a large amount of fossil fuels

                You have fallen flat on your face again, little geegee.

                83

              • #
                the adorable Gee Ayeeee

                true aye gee. That doesn’t change the efficiency of the ff though does it.

                Also,

                please let Craker reply – I addressed him not you. The rules of this blog allow free discussion between people.

                32

              • #
                Crakar24

                I have no idea what you are talking about and I don’t have the time to care

                41

              • #
                the adorable Gee Ayeeee

                thanks old bean. How funny that you appear like this.

                In a previous thread you gave me lots of w t f replies. I thought you needed some biology 101. Or maybe you thought this self evident as everyone should.

                Carbon dioxide is your weight loss solution

                https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/12/141216212047.htm

                http://theconversation.com/when-we-lose-weight-where-does-it-go-91594

                I look forward to ag’s apoplexy

                14

              • #
                Crakar24

                GA I find your comments to be in general vague and not consistent and therefore I don’t pay any attention. Not to mention your behaviour with regard to personal emails.

                I followed your link and you did not disappoint a bs study that somehow managed to squeeze a plug for agw

                30

              • #
                AndyG55

                “In a previous thread you gave me lots of w t f replies.”

                That’s because you almost invariably talk mindless irrelevant gibberish !

                30

              • #
                AndyG55

                WOW, little geegee has just figured out that metabolising carbohydrates and fats releases CO2.

                Amazing he is able to figure that much out. !

                20

              • #
                AndyG55

                Furthermore, the faster you metabolise, the more CO2 you need to get rid of.

                WOW !!!!!

                STUNNED silence from the audience. ;-)

                You seriously have things bass-ackwards little geegee, twisted and warped. !

                Breathing out CO2 doesn’t CAUSE you to loose weight..

                The exercise needed to loose weight CAUSES you to need to release more CO2.

                20

              • #
                gee aye

                thanks aye gee. Craker does not believe it though?

                The only way to lose weight is to breath. How weird you fight that

                13

              • #
                AndyG55

                Only way to GAIN weight is to breathe, little-ass.

                Stop breathing you loose weight very quickly.

                Your attempt at “being clever” FAILED, yet again.

                31

              • #
                AndyG55

                “The only way to lose weight is to breath.”

                I wonder how many people here lost weight during their first 20-30 years of breathing ?????

                I know I haven’t lost any weight over the last 20 or more years due to breathing.

                You are demonstrably WRONG, as always, little-ass.

                10

          • #
            David Wojick

            I think that is .045 dollars, not cents. Plus those figures do not square with the cited battery and range figures. Is the battery bigger than that needed for the range?

            90

            • #
              Peter Fitzroy

              check the link David.

              29

              • #
                OriginalSteve

                We are in a fiesty mood today…..whats biting your rear end?

                Have you finished your 1000 lines yet?

                72

              • #
                AndyG55

                “Have you finished your 1000 lines yet?”

                Poor pfutz hasn’t found any empirical evidence for warming by atmospheric CO2 yet, either.

                Basically just a naughty little boy/girl/it who can’t do its homework.

                73

          • #
            robert rosicka

            As usual pretty loose with the costs associated, include costs of upgrading infrastructure to cope with charging six million electric boondoggles or will that all be free , and while your at it the electricity required will come from where at what extra cost ?
            People living in apartment blocks will charge their cars where exactly overnight ?
            How many households have more than one car ? What’s the cost to each household for one charger let alone multiple and will the local supply / wiring handle the extra load ?
            No thought about the consequences just eyes on the green prize .

            71

            • #
              Rob Leviston

              Absolutely! We have 4 vehicles at home. My wife’s car, daughter’s car, my work van, and my spare work vehicle. Most of the time, 3 are in the street. But only one under a carport, where we might be able to fit a charger?
              And my other work vans, ‘live’ in an open car parking lot, where we don’t even have electric lighting! Now, where do you think I could charge those if they were electric?
              Sheesh! And we also have 3 other contractor’s vehicles parked in the same parking lot!
              Seriously, whoever dreamed this up, is certainly no bright spark!

              60

          • #
            Sceptical Sam

            Fitz,

            Ergon Energy (and you) are only telling part of the truth. Why would that be I wonder?

            Here’s some of what you are leaving out:

            “The second-generation Leaf is due to go on sale locally in August with prices starting at $49,990 (before on-road costs). This is about $5000 more than the rival Hyundai Ioniq and below the mark the base Tesla Model 3 would sell for in Australia.”

            https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/motoring-news/nissan-leaf-worlds-best-selling-electric-car-coming-to-australia-in-august/news-story/77919f675b3da3db1fc4df8ac98c1547

            Now let’s do the difference in depreciation between the Leaf and the Toyota Ascent (as per my post at 1.3.1 above):

            Depreciation on a $49,990 Leaf over 8 years = $120 per week

            Depreciation on $15,990 Ascent over 8 years = $38.50 per week

            Difference = $81.50 in favour of the Ascent.

            Now, the new Leaf may better the Ascent in cost per kilometre on fuel alone, but when you add in the difference in depreciation the Leaf is so far out of the ball park that you’d have to be a financial illiterate to even consider it from an economic point of view. Add to that the “cost of money” and the case for the Leaf is a disaster.

            Green virtue signallers, on the other hand, will be looking for a subsidy to make up the cost difference. They’re always on the public teat.

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        • #
          John Watt

          Hi Sam,
          I think we should be talking kWh not kW when doing these sums. According to manufacturers site you quote,the full charge capacity for the 230 km range is 48 kWh ,which at 28 c/kWh is 5.8 c/km. Even with a 10% energy loss during charging this vehicle is way cheaper for fuel than petrol driven vehicles.
          Other issues that should be considered are charging EVs overnight thus providing an off peak load to enable our coal fired stations to operate economically.i.e. an opportunity to build more coal!,
          The S/L mains are already used to charge EVs in a number of cities across the world.
          Realistically we are talking about small vehicles ,used for short urban trips.
          Cheers
          John

          43

          • #
            crakar24

            John where in this day and age can you buy electrickery at 28C???

            40

          • #

            It would seem only fair that the registration charge for EV owners should include the costs of building the transmission lines, charging stations, wind-solar-hydro and complete batteries (along with waste disposal of said batteries eventually) as well as a fair percentage of road infrastructure too. There should be no subsidies, no RET, and then and only then could we compare costs.

            Talking about fuel cost alone seems rather pointless.

            253

          • #
            Sceptical Sam

            John,

            OK. Taking your 5.8c/km as a given (compared with the 7.8c/km for the Ascent) is not the end of the story.

            The cost of the Ioniq ranges between $49,000 and $54,000 whereas the Ascent cost just $15,990.

            The difference in depreciation between the two over an 8 year period is $81.50 per week in favour of the Ascent owner.

            Add to that the “cost of money” at say 5.0% pa and that adds another $32.50 a week into the pocket of the Ascent owner.

            The Ascent owner will be over $100 per week better off than the Ioniq owner.

            There is no way that electric vehicles, at their current prices, make any sense at all from an economic perspective. Fools and their money.

            No doubt, Labor and electricity Bill, if they get elected will be only too happy to put their hands into the taxpayers’ pockets to fund the difference. Why do you think that the manufacturers have priced their product the way they have?

            30

          • #
            Lucky

            Now it is true that electricity at 28c/kWh is cheaper than the equivalent amount of petrol (gasoline).
            But, in Australia, petrol is highly taxed for general revenue and for road construction and maintenance.
            So on top of the increased pollution, higher CO2 emissions (beneficial),
            EVs do not contribute to the roads they ride on.
            Question for John Watt – the price of petrol, in Australia now about $1.35 /L, would be how much without government taxes and levies?

            30

    • #
      Serge Wright

      Silly comment award to Mr Watt, whose brain fade forgot to include the cost of the batteries and subsequent replacement cost every 8 years

      132

      • #

        I suggest every 4 years for a user that does an 20,000 km per year (an average for those that live outside the CBD ie 40-50km per day plus weekends and holidays)

        20

    • #
      Dave in the States

      For how long? You forgot the laws of economics. If recharging demand increases, so will the costs. Moreover, tampering with the markets to engineer results causes grid instability and further increased costs. Expect more government tampering to increase the costs of hydrocarbon fuels to help renewables to compete. More cost increases. More subsidies. More mandates.

      130

    • #
      Roy Hogue

      We need plans costed for regional charging stations,for battery disposal and for affordable EVs.

      I don’t want to be hijacking this thread. But knowing that your major cities are mostly on or near the west, south and east coasts of Australia with many hundreds of miles between them, actually thousands of miles across the continent and the useful range of a battery charge makes these things only suitable for a trip to the grocery store and back, how do they think anyone will tolerate the numerous long battery recharging stops to get from, say Perth to Canberra?

      Why is that question not getting attention from these “experts”?

      With the best range I know of I would need to stop multiple times just to get from here to Phoenix and my son. That adds up to several days spent hunkered down waiting to recharge, plus a day or more actually driving. Do they think we’re stupid? They can build all the charging stations they want to and the lost time plugged into the charger is still a fatal flaw.

      200

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        They don’t give a tinker’s damn about what EVs will do to the average Australian or Californian.

        130

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          At risk of repeating myself, unless someone makes Tesla’s grand idea of transmitting power by radio waves work, the short range and recharge time will always be the killer. And I think the backlash from dictating no internal combustion engines will be too much for them to handle.

          The question is, will enough people backlash on them. In California climate change is a given, never mind that no one has ever seen it. And it’s openly included in planning for everything. When they order you to buy the EV with the threat of law behind it, you buy the EV or you make sure you have an army on your side. I don’t think any of us has an army at our back.

          I doubt there’ll be any significant backlash.

          Until Donald Trump came along and was such a handy scapegoat to blame for life’s problems I never realized how easy it is to sell people the illusion of safety and security if you just get them to buy the illusion of a serious problem first.

          30

      • #
        Another Ian

        They’re punting on a surge in motel opportunities.

        Just don’t ask how the building materials etc will get delivered.

        130

      • #
        robert rosicka

        Until they install charging points across the country including the interior this talk of the ev revolution is just that ! Nothing but talk .

        42

        • #
          shortie of greenbank

          I certainly don’t want them to waste resources installing charging points. The boss in the building next to where I work has an EV, had so for years, forced his business to install an EV charging point about 20m from where I sit. I have never seen a single car use it to recharge, not once in nearly 5 years.

          60

    • #
      Kinky Keith

      John,
      Your first three sentences are brilliant sarcasm, which is why you got 5 greens.

      If it wasn’t sarcasm then that explains the 11 reds?

      KK

      80

    • #
      yarpos

      They arent cheaper to run on a total cost of ownership basis. You trade (at the moment) low recharging/fuel costs for over investing at the front end. Its similar to people to crow about not getting an electrcity bill/having a very low power bill when they have spent tens of thousands up front for a large solar/battery installation. Its similar to windpower that is supposed to be so cheap now but still gets subsidised and never accounts for the back up needed when its output disappears (unless you live in SA where the bill came in at half a billion for diesel/gas gens and a battery)

      80

      • #
        Graeme No.3

        yarpos:

        I think the final bill was higher. The battery cost between $92 and $150 million, and the diesel fueled OCGT’s around $640 million. Only a looney would think that this was cheaper than a $15 million p.a. subsidy to the Northern Power Station to provide reliable backup.

        60

    • #
    • #
      Geoff

      Meanwhile in Victoria!
      EPA’s role in regulating greenhouse gas emissions
      We recognise that Victoria’s legislated long-term target of net zero emissions by 2050 and the process for setting five-yearly interim targets to keep Victoria on track to meet it, are important steps towards addressing climate change.
      As the state’s environmental regulator, EPA has been an advocate for effective action and will implement the Victorian Government’s direction on climate change.
      Following the establishment of interim emissions reduction targets for Victoria, the Government will identify appropriate policy instruments to deliver these targets, including determining when EPA regulation is appropriate.
      We note that the Government has established an independent expert panel to provide advice on interim targets and potential opportunities for meeting them, and will consider the panel’s findings, and the Government’s response to them.
      In the meantime, EPA will continue to consider climate change in its decision making by ensuring best practice design of new facilities and a risk-prevention approach to environmental hazards is taken. This includes demonstrating best practice management of greenhouse gas emissions as required by the State Environment Protection Policy (Air Quality Management).
      The Climate Change Act 2017 also requires EPA to consider climate change in relation to a range of decisions including the issue of works approvals and licences. EPA must consider the potential impacts of a changing climate on the proposal, and the potential contribution the proposal will have to the state’s greenhouse gas emissions.
      http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/LTObject_Store/ltobjst10.nsf/DDE300B846EED9C7CA257616000A3571/EB8F13501574660ECA2581C60009E563/$FILE/17-5aa001%20authorised.pdf

      1 Purpose The purpose of this Act is to repeal and re-enact with amendments the Climate Change Act 2010—

      (a) to set a long-term greenhouse gas emissions reduction target; and

      (b) to provide for the setting of 5-yearly interim greenhouse gas emissions reduction targets in order to reach the long-term greenhouse gas emissions reduction target; and

      (c) to facilitate the consideration of climate change issues in specified areas of decision making of the Government of Victoria; and

      (d) to set policy objectives and guiding principles to inform decision-making under this Act and the development of government policy in the State; and

      (e) to provide for a strategic response to climate change through a climate change strategy, adaptation action plans and emissions reduction pledges; and

      (f) to provide for greater clarity and accountability through information collection and reporting; and

      (g) to facilitate the State’s contribution to national and international carbon sequestration efforts; and

      (h) to provide for the creation of forestry rights, carbon sequestration rights and soil carbon rights; and

      (i) to provide for Forestry and Carbon Management Agreements in relation to private land and Carbon Sequestration Agreements in relation to Crown land; and

      (j) to implement changes arising from a statutory review of the Climate Change Act 2010; and

      (k) to make a consequential amendment to the Environment Protection Act 1970.

      The Regulation Guidelines remain unwritten and can be done at any time by the Premier and the Minister of Environment. No input from the Victorian Parliament is needed!

      30

      • #
        Bill in Oz

        It’s all greenist bloody BS.
        I’m glad I no longer live there.
        I expect there will be Victorians
        Seeking refuge elsewhere
        in the near future.
        Especially those on low incomes
        and pensioners.

        Tis a pity that the Liberal party could not get their act together last November

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        • #
          Another Ian

          Bill

          Been going on for years. Remember that number plate slogan

          “Victoria: the place to be (from)”

          40

      • #
        robert rosicka

        Geoff our glorious leader of the people’s republic of Victoriastan has decreed it and so it shall happen , even right now where relying on coal from interstate to keep the power on so if we get rid of the rest of the coal fired generation it’s lights out for us and SA .

        32

    • #
      Geoffrey Williams

      John Watt !!!! John What? is more like it !!!!
      On this site people are trying to have an intelligent and objective discussion on electric vehicles. So why don’t you just go to the ABC and have a chat with them they’ll love you.
      GeoffW

      41

      • #
        John Watt

        Hi Geoffrey,
        That sort of discussion would proceed a lot more smoothly if we noted the difference between kW and kWh when calculating EV running costs. This error resulted in a 100% overestimation of the EV running cost.and distorted the conversation e.g. 34 green thumbs supported the faulty calculation and it just went downhill from there.
        Cheers
        John

        10

    • #
      AndrewWA

      Wow…..even the couple who won the “FREE” BMW EV through RACWA couldn’t get rid of the car quick enough when the real hassles and cost of owning this EV became apparent.

      The replacement battery was no longer supported by BMW and the replacement would require a total software/hardware upgrade.

      Resale value – close to zero.

      40

      • #
        John PAK

        I’d suggest that all tech goes through teething problems before evolving into something useful. BMW are known for over complicating designs.
        I can imagine a time when city scooters are part battery, part ultra-capacitor, part photo voltaic paint and have a 50cc diesel that cuts in when the battery runs down.
        Mild climates like Sydney would benefit from cars being replaced with scooters that have sensible fairings. We have far too many cars transporting single drivers here so I’d be happy to pay extra fuel taxes to subsidise urban charging stations.

        The idea of cars being electric does seem a bit far fetched with 2019 technology but my 1985 Makita 7.2V drill was a joke. The 2018 brushless 18V Makita drill is a real tool that I use every day. It will not be long before they come out with super capacitors and contact chargers for a 2 minute partial top-up.

        20

        • #
          Kinky Keith

          John,

          I had a Ryobi battery powered drill, I believe, in the late eighties. It was very useful.

          The use of petrol has it’s own problems but we now rarely see fires.

          As for capacitors: without knowing anything about existing systems, it would seem to be a bit like trying to tame a Thunderstorm.

          KK

          00

          • #
            John PAK

            If interested in the new capacitors check out
            https://www.maxwell.com/products/ultracapacitors/

            I’m doing a basic electronics course with a retired electronics engineer and we made a capacitor from two sheets of kitchen foil in A4 clear plastic sleeves. Many capacitors are simply long rolls of thin metallic film on a plastic strip. Skeleton Tech have perfected one molecule thick graphene ultra capacitors. They need a small circuit board to limit current release but it’s all cheap doable tech in 2019.

            10

    • #
      Antoine D'Arche

      except….. when you cost in the building the increased supply required to recharge. Which will be when everyone comes home at night. 7 million vehicles, at how much each? 40kW? Compared to our current peak load this last summer of 29GW.
      Someone tell me where I’m wrong,I haven’t looked hard enough this yet.

      50

    • #
      Brian Wells

      Good points, not to mention the problems associated with the disposal/recycling of spent lithium ion batteries – there are 7000 of them in each Tesla battery pack. I asked google about this once, plenty of coughing and spluttering, and not too many constructive answers.
      Why do Labor/Greens think they can change the world in one term? Money is getting very tight in Oz at the moment, and I don’t relish the thought of funding the R&D expenses on behalf of electric car manufacturers.

      10

  • #
    mmxx

    Australia is poised on entering a future of unsustainability of our hard-won reasonable lifestyle because of green-left climate zealotry that is scientifically baseless but has infused the comfortable minds of the many of our youth, especially in indulged parts of suburbia.

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  • #
    robert rosicka

    Abc are using Norway as a good example for electric car uptake but that country is less than half the size of oz .
    To achieve 50% ev by 2030 would require somewhere upwards of a million cars per year and that’s just not going to happen ,the logistics of charging this amount of cars when we can’t keep the lights on now prohibits it .
    These guys are just nuts , economy wrecking nuts .

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    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Robert:

      “These guys are just nuts”, and they haven’t checked their facts; Norway managed a big take-up of electric cars by large subsidies and certain advantages e.g. freedom from charges. All paid for by their very profitable oil and gas industries and helped by their largely (98%) hydro generation, which could sell Certificates into the EU(more income) and get very cheap surplus renewables from the EU.
      The moment those subsidies were reduced, sales plumetted.
      We don’t have any very profitable industries, we don’t have an electricity scheme with a very cheap surplus supply (quite the reverse) and we have more cars travelling longer distances. Unfortunately this is the one of their ideas that is nearest to sanity (approx. several kilometres and then only if you include Sanity the DVD sellers).

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      • #
        robert rosicka

        Somehow auto correct has changed NSW to oz , Norway is less than half the size of NSW .
        And yes fossil fuelled cars are punished with taxes on taxes to even the playing field .
        There is no costing from Labor and you won’t get one .

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        • #
          yarpos

          They are also blessed with copious hydro power

          Norway does not demonstrate what can be deployed widely, its a massive cherry pick.

          40

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      Norway is a long skinny mountainous glaciated country with a pretty small road network i=outside Oslo & the other towns on the coastal fringe.

      Because of this geography Norway is far more dependent on boats & planes than Australia. All freight is transported between town by ship with just a limited amount coming in by road from Sweden.

      So the relevant question to pose about Norway is how many electric boats they have there ?

      Probably bugger all..

      After all who would want to risk a trip on the cold North Atlantic waters with battery powered boat ?

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      • #
        toorightmate

        Peter Fitzroy will probably tell us that Scandinavian ships are solar powered
        Peter is also solar powered, which is why he is totally useless on cloudy days and at night (as opposed to being almost entirely senseless when the sun is shining).

        50

      • #
        John of Cloverdale, WA, Australia

        They have plenty of electric snowmobiles (sarc).

        20

    • #

      Luv Jo’s pasts -
      She’s 99 percent great -
      but posts on electric cars-
      a subject as boring as waiting
      for the car to volt up….
      to travel to the next
      stage-post… zzzzzzzzzz.

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  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    Of the top 10 current selling cars in Oz, none meet the emission requirements that will be required.

    There goes the current newcar business, not to mention the second hand yards, whose stock has just been devalued pointlessly.

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    • #
      yarpos

      Depends on what they do. If it only applies to new cars you could see used car values rise.

      30

    • #
      BoyfromTottenham

      I’m going long on second-hand cars. Unless the next ALP govt subsidises the hell out of new EVs, they are unaffordable for 90% of new car buyers. If new ICE cars can’t meet the ALP’s tighter fuel economy / CO2 standards, and EVs are unaffordable, there are only two options left – hang on to your old ICE car or trade up to a newer second hand one. Either way the price of second hand ICE (and maybe hybrid) cars will go ballistic. the ALP can legislate to save the planet all it wants, but it can’t force the whole population to make dumb, unaffordable decisions about their vehicles. They do that all by themselves…

      30

  • #
    Bill in Oz

    How clean is Clean energy ? An interesting USA perspective. It turns out wind & solar are not that clean after all ! I doubt that the facts are any different here in Oz

    https://papundits.wordpress.com/2019/04/01/clean-energy/?fbclid=IwAR2fTH9g7kmM69eKJNYs5ZBe6x9x-NDdNAP8f3kgFDVjE_zHZVKTCLixfgo

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    • #
      Another Ian

      Bill

      Find yourself a copy of Ian Plimer’s “Not for greens”

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      • #
        Bill in Oz

        I have it here on the shelf.
        Along with two of his other books.
        It’s good. But 250 pages.

        But the link I gave puts it in 5 minutes.

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  • #
    Crakar24

    Too bad we dismantled our car industry we could have built the “Aussie Ampere” that could have rivalled the Russian Lada, Korean Komrade or the Venezualan Victor but alas that is not to be.

    180

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      How about the East German Trabant? Plastic body, poor performance and banned from Autobahns because of the cloud of (real) pollution obscuring them.

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      • #

        My favourite car of that type was the Lightburn Zeta made in Australia by a washing machine company in South Australia from 1963-1965. You had to take out the front seats to get things out of the cargo hold. It had no reverse gear so the driver would stop the car, and turn the engine on backwards and so they had four gears in reverse. The fuel gauge was a plastic pipe from the tank to the dash. They made 353 in total.
        A car-expert friend owned one as a novelty and swore the suspension was solid wooden blocks.

        With the Zeta, however, failure was engineered into the product from day one.[8] — Tony Davis, Extra Lemon! See wikipedia, link above.
        It’s a legend of Australian motoring.

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        • #
          Graeme No.3

          When sales were slow Lightburn started wondering why none of his executives had purchased one for their wives. By a curious coincidence every one of them had just purchased another (more conventional) model for a their wife’s car.

          But he got a big new car seller from NSW to come over. The price was attractive (unlike the car) but as he opened the driver’s door it came off in his hands. No sales in NSW.

          But Jo, you obviously didn’t see the sports model – known locally as the motorised roller skate. As one commentator claimed “the safest car on the road. Impossible to exceed the speed limit in it (even downhill) and capable of going under any bus or truck on the road.”

          80

        • #
          Murray Shaw

          Yes Jo, I had a stepmother named Zeta, think the car was better in the end!

          40

        • #
          Greg in NZ

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/103021319/dont-forget-the-firstever-skoda-suv-was-designed-and-built-in-new-zealand

          Trekka – NZ’s own make-believe Land Rover “with only 3000 examples built between 1966 and 1973… There was a bit of a panic in 1968 when the Skoda factory was reported to be considering the production of a low-cost utility in Australia. Trekka wanted to strike first and the two governments struck a deal for 720 examples of the Kiwi vehicle to sell in Australia duty free, with the same number of Holdens enjoying that privilege in NZ. Aussies weren’t as keen on our Trekkas as we were on their Holdens, and ultimately only about 100 examples of the Kiwi car were sold across the Tasman”. You could have any colour you liked as long as it was green (except the model in the article is a puke sick yellow).

          Conclusion: “Local car comes good: the Skoda Museum in the Czech Republic city of Mlada Boleslav has added a Trekka to its collection… The rear-drive Trekka was powered by a 1.2-litre engine that made a hearty 35kW. Driving through a four-speed gearbox, it could hit 110kmh flat-out”. No mention of a reverse gear and the tow-bar was an optional extra. Toot-toot!

          80

        • #
          Geoff

          My groomsman had a Zeta Sports. Nice. Gazillion mpg. Went all over Adelaide in it. Now we don’t even make the wheel nuts.

          20

        • #
          Another Ian

          Jo

          Re Lightburn.

          Give them credit for reasonable cement mixers. The washing machines looked like they were spun off that line IIRC.

          10

          • #
            Len

            They also made jacks. Nearly everyone had/has one or more in their shed. Red in colour from memory.

            20

      • #
        neil

        Actually it’s body wasn’t true plastic it was a type of Laminex, like the stuff we had on kitchen benches in the 1960′s, basically compressed tissue paper with a binding agent. The Trabant was made of paper.

        20

    • #
      Sambar

      And for the four wheel drive enthusiast we could have the “Outback Ohm” goes anywhere provided you carry a petrol generator to charge it up. For the greens who will still hate the idea of personal transport we could have the “Rundown Resistor”, for the large family there is the “Capacitor” and for the confused among use they could drive the all new “Transistor” the only electric car that offers the choice of manual or auto. Public transport would be provided by “Base-load Buses” and ……
      Gotta stop the Bundy Bear wants attention

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    • #
      David Wojick

      The first Studebaker car was an EV in 1902.
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studebaker
      You see where that got them.

      40

  • #
    pat

    never mind about the regional areas. we’re all headed the way of Spain. No FakeNewsMSM is reporting this (but will cover a CAGW protest of one!):

    Youtube: 2min06sec: Ruptly Raw (RT): Spain: Madrid revolts against urbanisation and an ‘empty Spain’
    Thousands of protesters from Spain’s rural areas marched in Madrid on Sunday, demanding measures to stop the depopulation of rural areas, calling it a ‘Revolt of the Emptied Spain.’
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiASeDAUK-Y

    Youtube: 1min25sec: EuroNews: The ‘Revolt of Empty Spain’: Why is Spain’s rural world protesting?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaRTjBd6–0

    different EuroNews video – watch:

    VIDEO: 1min54sec: 1 Apr: EuroNews: The ‘Revolt of Empty Spain’: Why is Spain’s rural world protesting?
    By Marta Rodriguez Martinez, Cristina Abellan Matamoros, Sandrine Amiel
    Thousands of Spanish citizens from remote rural areas are protesting this Sunday in Madrid against depopulation and the lack of infrastructure in their regions.
    The movement, initiated by 85 grassroots organisations, has come to be known as the “revolt of empty Spain”.
    Depopulation, an acute problem in Spain’s rural areas
    The municipality of Molina de Aragón in the Guadalajara province (northwestern Spain) has a population density inferior to Siberia’s. With 1.63 inhabitants per kilometre, it is the area that suffers the most from depopulation in a country with 16 provinces that feature among the least densely populated in Europe.

    ***The rural population of Spain increased between 2000 and 2010, but since then it has declined to approximately 9,17 million people, according to Statista.
    The issue is so acutely reflected on the map that 53% of the territory is inhabited by only 5% of the population, according to a study by the Research Centre on Depopulation and Development of Rural Areas (CEDDAR)…
    Although the protest movement is apolitical, the rural vote will be key in the national elections on April 28…

    The term “empty Spain” was coined by the author Sergio del Molino in an essay where he defines it as Spain’s interior — an absolutely depopulated area that heavily contrasts with the urban areas.
    Molina says that this reality is a particularity of Spain compared to its European neighbours that are heavily populated. “In Spain, you can travel multiple kilometres without seen anything else but fields.”…
    https://www.euronews.com/2019/03/31/the-revolt-of-empty-spain-why-is-spain-s-rural-world-protesting

    ***EuroNews leaves out all the important deal re numbers.

    more to come.

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    • #
      pat

      on jo’s previous thread, “Weekend Unthreaded”, Another Ian posted a very important link from WUWT:

      New paper: Urbanization has increased minimum temperatures 1.7K in the UK
      https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/03/31/new-paper-urbanization-has-increased-minimum-temperatures-1-7k-in-the-uk/

      the comments are interesting too.

      to be honest, thanks to Anthony Watts, I have long ago started to wonder whether the entire CAGW scam is based on UHI that is not fully accounted for.

      meanwhile, everywhere you look, politicians, MSM/business incl finance, seem to be pushing for further urbanisation:

      Waiting for urbanisation to percolate
      The Hindu BusinessLine – 25 Mar 2019

      Vertical farming could help urbanisation and climate change
      The Weekly Times-7 Mar 2019
      CITIES will have to become part of the solution to producing food, as urbanisation and climate change continue to be challenges…

      UN says urbanization to expand in Ethiopia
      Xinhua-4 Mar 2019

      Innovative urban financing can make our cities stronger
      World Economic Forum (blog) – 29 Mar 2019

      READ ALL:

      26 Mar: VisualCapitalist.com: Investing Megatrend: How Rapid Urbanisation is Shaping the Future
      By Jeff Desjardins
      Blackrock
      Investing Megatrend: How Rapid Urbanisation is Shaping the Future
      Of these five fundamental forces shaping the future of society, rapid urbanisation will likely have the biggest effect on how and where humans live, creating a myriad of investment opportunities in the process…

      Today’s infographic comes to us from iShares by BlackRock, and it highlights the case for rapid urbanisation as being one of the most important overarching trends to watch in markets over the long term…
      In these developed economies today, cities are major sources of innovation and wealth creation, and the World Bank estimates that over 80% of global GDP is now generated in cities…

      A global shift
      Billions of people – especially in Asia and Africa – will be seeking opportunities in cities over the coming decades. Between 2018 and 2050, the global urban population will increase from 55% to 68%, adding another 2.5 billion people to cities around the world.
      Nearly 90% of this growth will be in Africa and Asia, with India alone adding 416 million new people to its cities – more than any other country in the world over this timeframe…
      https://www.visualcapitalist.com/investing-megatrend-rapid-urbanisation/

      no wonder eco-terrorists get away with targeting farms, or mines, etc.

      60

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      Pat, the English translation does not convey the emotional significance of the Spanish :

      LA ESPAÑA VACÍA !

      41

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      UN Agenda 21 calls for emptying the countryside and stuffing people into big cities.

      Spain seems to be the blueprint we are following….

      “The trainwreck of Spain sends its economy down the drain………”

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  • #
    Sambar

    Australia wont need a new grid when all these electric vehicles hit the road. Users will simply be rationed as to when and how they can charge their cars. Remember the days in Victoriastan when striking refinery workers caused fuel shortages. The government response was simple, vehicles with regos ending with an even number could fill up on Monday, regos with odd endings could fill up on Tuesday and so on. The precedent has already been set and it worked just fine So, no electrons for you today, no electrons for me tomorrow. This is real progress.

    132

    • #
      robert rosicka

      No charging cars in summer !

      71

      • #
        Another Ian

        Get smart – solar cells and park it under a street light

        60

        • #
          Bill in Oz

          Ian, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry….
          Yes exactly what Get Smart was all about !

          51

          • #
            ivan

            You might laugh but in Spain some enterprising people used high intensity lights aimed at their solar panels at night to generate power and get a subsidy for it – eventually killed when subsidies on solar were reduced/abolished.

            70

            • #
              Lucky

              Yes, it was a big generating company. They had a fleet of trucks with diesel generators running powerful lamps onto the solar panels at night. The highly artificial inflated price paid for solar power made it quite profitable, and legal, until the law got changed.

              30

          • #
            Another Ian

            Bill

            A better answer might have been

            “What is a street light?”

            30

          • #
            Greebo

            EVs are about as effective as the cone of silence.

            00

    • #
      Hanrahan

      Australia wont need a new grid when all these electric vehicles hit the road.

      The real reason we won’t need a new grid is that we won’t have any industry and I doubt big shopping arcades could exist either so all that airconditioning and refrigeration will be off line.

      I hope they keep the ICE ambulances to take everyone with food poisoning to hospital though. I’m only half joking. If refrigeration becomes too expensive there WILL be food poisoning.

      110

  • #
    Speedy

    Morning all.

    I recently purchased an electric vehicle – well a pushbike anyway. And in the process discovered a few interesting thing about lithium batteries.

    1. They are expensive. A 400 Wh (that’s 0.4kWh) battery is costs about A$750. Probably cheaper when you get bigger but the basic cell is the same, so watch this space.
    2. They are sensitive. There are many ways to kill a lithium cell. Things like fast charging, overcharging (more than 80% rated capacity), over-discharging (less than 30% of rated discharge, and overheating (more than 30 Celsius.)

    So, old age might kill your battery, but if you want to use it in a practical sense, (fast charge, utilisation of the full battery capacity), then your battery turns into a brick very quickly. And the “1000 cycle” change/discharge design assumes optimum charge/discharge range on the battery (i.e. never more than 80%, never less than 30%) and cool temperatures. In Australia? Where temperatures are high most of the time and where distances demand that we have full battery use – not the optimum 50% that’s in the fine print.

    Caveat emptor.

    Cheers,

    Speedy

    240

    • #
      Sambar

      Hey Speedy and you still bought it! Could have sold you a slightly used hybrid,( push bike that is road / track ) really easy to ride, great gearing comfortable seating, about 80 thousand k’s on the clock, rode it to work for years. $100 bucks woulda dun it.

      40

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Speedy,
      what you need is a recumbent bike as used by a few zealots here in the Aelaide Hills. Lower Centre of Gravity for stability, aided by 3 wheels and it ‘zooms’ uphill if you tow the optional battery trailer.
      It is a bit of a nuisance passing them as they tend to go around in packs? herds? flocks? What is the correct name for a multiple of virtue poseurs?

      110

      • #
        Sceptical Sam

        A posy.

        60

      • #
        Rob Leviston

        Graeme, I’m certainly not a poseur! But I do ride recumbents! Not all recumbenteers are greenies! Know quite a few that are distinctly right wing! Myself included. Just my personal preference for cycling. Comfort you know!

        40

        • #
          Graeme No.3

          I didn’t call you a poseur. My frustration with these people is the slow speed, especially up hill, and the narrow roads which make safe passing hard.

          30

          • #
            RickWill

            Once electric cars are mandated you too will have to make the choice to cycle in comfort on a recumbent or take the torture test on an upright.

            A friend of mine rode a recumbent around Australia completely unassisted; covering the 15,000km in 49 days. Try to match that in a battery electric car!

            50

    • #
      Another Ian

      Speedy

      I posted a while back that in one of those hot spells the cockpit temperature in an R22 in flight was 48C. (NW Oz)

      How would they go in that?

      30

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Speedy, i was looking at batteries for an electric bike and was tossing up beteen sealed lead acid and lithium. Not a lot of difference price wise for a 36v 10Ah battery set up.

      Sounds like lithium is an expensive snowflake of a bettery. Yes they are light but it sounds like you lose 50% of the rated capacity as you have to baby them.

      My hops would only be 20 mins each way but with a 750W motor, I will use it to its max to have a bit of fun. My main driver is happily depriving the local council of paying for parking….

      10

  • #
    Mal

    NRMA representative on four corners (ABC) wants all new petrol and diesel vehicles to be banned from 2025
    Are these guys absolute morons.

    200

    • #
      robert rosicka

      Yes they are !

      160

    • #
      David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

      G’day Mal,
      I started to watch it, but got so annoyed I’ve turned it off. I might get brave enough to watch it later as I’ve got it recording. It shows a meeting in Tathra (south cost of NSW), of 200 people, who are claimed to have got interested in reducing global warming after their village was severely damaged by a bushfire about 18 months ago.

      Nasty fire indeed.

      But the program implies that it was this global warming/climate change/ CO2 emissions which caused the devastation – without any discussion, let alone any serious evidence. That Tathra was directly downwind of uncleared scrub on a hot day with strong winds when the fire started upwind was not mentioned.
      And then they voted for 100% renewables for their shire by 2030.
      I turned it off and came here for some sanity.

      Thanks for being here.
      Dave B

      160

      • #
        Mal

        Iused to live in bega and I fished out of Tathra for over 4 years.
        I know the area well.
        You are correct, Tathra is down wind of the hot norwesters which will blow up to 100 kph in front of a southerly change.
        The forest to the nw has had environmental protection for years now. That means no burning off.
        The fuel load had built up
        When the fire started the embers jumped 5 – 10 kms ahead directly towards Tathra.
        Properties were built right up-to the timberline
        This was a mandmade disaster brought on by disastrous green policies.if we don’t recognise this fact then they will continue as there are so many settlements on the far south coast with this predicament.
        The 200 locals protesting are most likely to be city blow in’s who have migrated from the cities and particularly canberra

        161

        • #
          Bill in Oz

          Cool burns are what the Aboriginal people of the South coast did for thousands of years.
          Cook saw & wrote about the smoke of the burning when he sailed up the coast to Botany Bay in 1772.
          And it was continued by early white settlers.

          but greenists did not like the smoke and saw the practice banned.

          Ahh well..They are now wearing the consequences of their own ignorance & prejudice..

          81

      • #
        truth

        And to do their bit for ‘the planet’ their big solution was to get someone to paint ’100% renewables’ on their local water tower.

        I’d be a bit worried about that local doctor at Tathra who called them all together if I were they too.

        10

  • #
    neil

    When a new technology arrives it typically takes forty to seventy years to replace an inferior technology, beyond this time it will probably never become mainstream.

    A few examples:

    Cars replacing horses 1886 to 1950′s
    Planes replacing ships 1903 to 1970′s
    Computers replacing slide rules 1945 to 1990′s

    The first electric car was 1846 forty years before the petrol car, first rechargeable battery 1859. 160 years later it remains a niche technology. Electric cars will not become mainstream in the next decade and maybe never because human nature tells us that we will not replace a superior technology with an inferior one because politicians and academics tell us we have to.

    190

  • #
    Mal

    Vote for Labor and watch your electricity Bill go through the roof.

    232

    • #
      shortie of greenbank

      Voting for Labor, Labor Lite (LNP) or Labor Watermelon ( do I have to say greens?) will net unfortunately similar results.

      Make your votes count in the senate is all I can say.

      50

  • #
    OriginalSteve

    EVs = lockdown of the population.

    You cant go far without a charge, which limits you to main cities, which ties in perfectly with Agenda21 of emptying people out of the countryside.

    Now add in autonomous EVs where you *arent* allowed to drive, and you are tagged and bagged and fodder for the laughable mythical ” gaia”.

    Im sorry , but as this makes just no ligical sense at any level, there has to be a spiritual driver to this. The NWO openly have said through predictions by Blavatsky et al, that if the bulk of the population didnt take the hint to become “enlightened” to the Agenda 21 nonsense, they would be *forced* into it.

    Guess what? We are being forced into it. You have sucessive Liberal and Labor and Green parties who want to throw our society off a cliff, and no one says ” stop!” from any party?

    “Can one blind person lead another blind person? Won’t they both fall into a ditch?” (Luke 6:39)

    221

    • #

      Yep! Take back the wheel, yer weren’t meant to have it in the first place.

      80

    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      Apologies Mod. Mea culpa.

      She’s dead. I know Blavatsky was an occultist, but sueing from her spiritual world might just be a step too far, even for her.

      Haunting, on the other hand…….

      20

    • #
      Another Ian

      On a punt you could study the business model of the originl Cobb & Co and be ready

      20

  • #
    Crakar24

    Crunching the numbers……

    I pay around 38c/kw, this is tempered slightly by my 3kw solar panels. I also pay 19c/kw (j tariff) to boil water during the night, it draws 14 amps for several hours.

    About 60% of my bill goes towards boiling water.

    With that in mind can i charge my car on thr j tarrif or do i pay full tote odds at night without a rule change i will.

    Plus the cost of upgrading my fuse board to handle current i wont be able to afford a car soon.

    80

    • #
      robert rosicka

      Not in NSW then , putz only pays 14 cents or so he claims .

      42

    • #
      Mal

      Not having a car is the intent of the exo fascists

      60

    • #
      Hanrahan

      With that in mind can i charge my car on thr j tarrif

      Not in Qld and I doubt anywhere else. The reason it is cheaper is that it is switched, ie you are off line during the peaks. here you can connect permanently wired aircons [split systems] but you cannot have a GPO or other power socket connected to that circuit.

      30

      • #
        John PAK

        In NSW I have a power-point on the off-peak circuit so I can run a fridge and freezer in my garage. I often run my fancy pulse battery charger through the night to stop my many lead-acid batteries from sulphating up. My power utility seemed to think this was perfectly acceptable and they even suggested running clothes and dish-washers at night. In summer NSW coal units are often maxed-out by 2 p.m. so they are encouraging us to transfer load to the night-time.

        20

  • #
    PeterFitzroy

    And yet Jaguar, BMW, Renault, etc are moving to phase out those inefficient heat engines we currently use.

    422

    • #

      Virtue signalling.

      122

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        I don’t think you understand the term. I’m not saying I use an EV (now that would be virtue signalling), I’m saying that car makers are moving away from combustion.

        418

        • #
          Sceptical Sam

          Fitz,

          You are misinterpreting what the car-makers are doing.

          They are not “moving away” from anything. They are Capitalists – very successful Capitalists too. Innovators. The saviours of the world’s poverty stricken.

          They are expanding their range of products to provide the dimwits, who believe they can change the climate, with a product they want. Good strategy. Fools and their money.

          202

          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            And phasing out combustion models, as an example VW are going to make their last petrol and diesel models in 2026.

            314

            • #
              David Wojick

              I bet they do not, because they would quickly become a much smaller company and probably fold in the process. A huge market for EVs cannot suddenly appear.

              130

            • #
              yarpos

              VW arent exactly famous for sound decision making

              50

            • #
              Gee aye

              I’m curious about where this is reported? Is there a statement by VW management?

              32

            • #
              Gee aye

              I get a lot of reports like this

              Earlier this week, Volkswagen announced a plan to get out of the business of fossil fuel cars and to go 100% electric. They’ll launch their final generation of fossil fuel cars in 2026 and plan to stop selling them all together by 2040.

              That’s not the same as making last model in 2026 – they are saying 2040

              81

            • #
              AndyG55

              You should try a bit of scepticism some day, rather than blind belief, little geegee.

              Perhaps you could provide evidence that atmospheric CO2 does something other than grow plants ?

              21

              • #
                gee aye

                yeah that’s right. That is all it does. No role in animal biology. No role on other planets. CO2 exists only for plants. It is a chemical with a mystically ordained purpose.

                Inhaling too much CO2 means you don’t need to proof read.

                20

              • #
                AndyG55

                So, NO WARMING EFFECT.

                Thanks for confirming that. :-)

                Inhale too much H2O, see if its a “toxic pollutant”

                You are making a GOOSE of yourself again, little geegee.

                You should never try to be “clever”, it never works for you.

                22

              • #
                gee aye

                so…. you you are saying it has no role in anything other than plant Carbon acquisition. This is very interesting. Do you deny the other things I wrote?

                20

              • #
                gee aye

                Do you stand by this?

                Perhaps you could provide evidence that atmospheric CO2 does something other than grow plants ?

                a bet. If I or anyone proves this wrong, I’ll never respond to you on this blog again.

                you read it right. So long as you do the same and never respond to me if you are wrong

                20

              • #
                gee aye

                oh wait I already did that. CO2 has a role in human biology.dammit

                20

              • #
                AndyG55

                No warming effect.

                So glad you agree, little ass.

                Of course CO2 has a role in ALL of nature, its a major part of the CARBON CYCLE. Didn’t you know that?????

                But as you have now admitted…. TWICE..

                NO WARMING EFFECT.

                12

              • #
                AndyG55

                This is fantastic.

                The little geegee has FINALLY admitted that atmospheric CO2 has NO WARMING EFFECT.

                Now perhaps the pfutz will get onboard with reality as well.

                After all, geegee worship pfutz, its makes him feel all brave etc.

                21

              • #
                AndyG55

                And geegee, apart from the requirement of a certain balance of CO2 in our system, in what way do we actually USE it.

                We, and other animals, PRODUCE it so plants can USE it.

                Our bodies don’t actually “make” anything out of the atmospheric CO2, do we.

                Our whole physical being is designed to GET RID of most of it.

                21

        • #
          Dennis

          You haven’t thought it through, like with coal fired power stations, businesses are all about return on funds invested and shareholders’ profit.

          When governments decide to abandon the free market capitalist system that has boosted the standard of living, and impose socialist controls picking winners and losers for consumers instead of allowing the market to decide, businesses adapt.

          Did you bother to read the above article?

          On SKY Outsiders a couple of weekends back they interviewed some teenagers after the climate demonstration and one bright young women who does not support the other students explained that she might have supported them in years past, but since studying economics she cannot possibly support them.

          80

          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            Dennis, I’m reporting the demise of combustion engines as a means of providing the motive force for personal travel. What are you talking about?

            212

            • #
              yarpos

              “demise” a couple of virtue signalling aspirations in Europe that are yet to be realised. Spare me.

              80

            • #
              AndyG55

              “the demise of combustion engines as a means of providing the motive force for personal travel.”

              Then you are talking ARRANT NONSENSE, as always.

              Ford F series, by itself, STILL outsells all EV’s in the USA by 6:1, or thereabouts.

              The only “demise” will be eventual “demise” of the AGW scam.

              I mean, they can’t even produce scientific evidence for the very basis of the AGW farce, ie, warming by increased atmospheric CO2.

              43

        • #
          toorightmate

          Has everyone forgotten that Kevin Rudd said everyone in Australia would be driving a Prius by 2016.
          Gee Rudd was stupid. He was almost as stupid as Peter Fitzroy.

          81

          • #
            Gee aye

            I’d forgotten it and can’t find where or when he said that. Can you point me to the quote?

            All I get is talk about helping the Australian car industry (remember that) to retool to make hybrids and other statements by Rudd along the lines of “how great would it be if soon everybody drove a hybrid”. No predictions and nothing specific.

            55

          • #
            toorightmate

            Gee aye,
            I do not have a direct reference to Rudd’s stupid comment, but it was splashed all over national TV during a visit he made to the Toyota plant in Victoria.

            32

            • #
              the adorable Gee Ayeeee

              so you were not skeptical? And you have no evidence.

              I bet you keep repeating it though

              34

      • #
        Another Ian

        Remember when tail fins were all the go for the latest in cars?

        20

    • #
      Crakar24

      Heat engines……waart da phuc?

      You dont want heat peter heat is wasted energy and what happens when batteries and associated cabling gets hot you waste energy peter. Like john at comment 1 stop talking smack!!!!!!

      And yes i am in a fine mood tonight to play whack a mole

      122

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Patricia, when you go without your nice warm house and the couch youre sitting on and give away the mobile phone you are using right now, then we will believe you actually put your money where your mouth is….until then, please make sure you walk your kids to school in the freezing rain, dont fly anywhere, never use a hair dryer again, and disconnect your phone.

      Best leave running the country for people who actually know how stuff works and dont believe in lefty fairy stories…

      112

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        Nice segway into irrelevance there Steve, what has any of that got to do with phasing out gas guzzling heat engines.

        322

        • #
          Hanrahan

          There is plenty of oil, it;s just THERE waiting to be extracted.
          Your standard of living is 100% built on bountiful energy. Energy starvation will lead to real starvation. Can’t you see that?

          101

          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            The stone age did not end because we ran out of stones

            311

            • #
              AndyG55

              (Snipped, stop the name calling and irrelevant comments about a person in the thread) CTS

              32

            • #
              AndyG55

              No, it ended because of the advent of iron and the use of charcoal, ie CARBON, to make and extract other metals.

              Something “BETTER” replaced stone as tools.

              There is currently nothing “BETTER” to replace ICE type cars and trucks, and there is unlikely to be in the foreseeable future.

              52

        • #
        • #
          OriginalSteve

          Seems I’ve hit a nerve…good….

          Give up your phone Patricia…..and hand over all the aspects of modern life that keep you and your children alive, go back to the green “nirvana”of no cheap and reliable power generation.

          Take 1000 lines…

          “I will not support pointless activities”

          82

        • #
          AndyG55

          “into irrelevance “

          Yes pfutz.. your comments are always irrelevant.

          They are designed PURELY to disrupt. To TROLL

          That is their only purpose.

          83

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      Car for the rich and uninformed
      With prestige on their half throttled minds.

      More B S

      81

    • #

      And which country are EV’s selling in without a major subsidy PEter?

      Who would Jaguar and BMW be selling too if it wasn’t for forced payments from taxpayers, or other tax concessions and subsidies?

      222

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        How would I know? I’m just looking at the news feeds, there are lots of subsidies to support manufacturers independent of the vehicles produced, but saving jobs, just like we used to do in Australia
        VW are going to stop production on petrol and diesel models in 2026. Jaguar are moving to Hybrids in 2020. BMW and the rest are following suit.

        414

        • #
          Dennis

          I hope you are not repeating the leftist school of theory that businesses are subsidised based on tax deductions for expenses incurred producing profit before tax?

          And farming and mining not paying fuel tax, another example of lefty logic, ignoring that fuel tax is for road transport vehicles?

          Yes there have been government, read paid from taxpayer’s taxes, subsidies for some businesses such as the now departed from Australia motor industry that was uncompetitive without subsidies, same as unreliable energy businesses.

          61

        • #
          AndyG55

          I don’t see this idiotic anti-science anti-CO2 agenda lasting that long.

          People are starting to wake up to the farce behind this anti-CO2 agenda, thanks to people like AOC and di Natale etc.

          Your comments also strengthen the case that the whole AGW nonsense is nothing but a piece of anti-science garbage and socialist agenda propaganda.

          I suspect that you know that to be the case, and are being willfully deceitful and just playing dumb as a pretense to troll as a form of sick attention-seeking self-gratification.

          63

          • #
            Greg Cavanagh

            It can’t continue simply because their stated goals are impossible.

            And just like the countries in the EU being unable to meet their targets, they fail, and they… um, do nothing.

            What they want is impossible to achieve, therefor it can never be achieved. At least not in the foreseeable future. It is doomed to fail by design (or ignorance).

            40

        • #


          And which country are EV’s selling in without a major subsidy?

          Peter, the question is key, core, important. If there is no country on Earth where EV’s are growing/common without subsidies then it tells us that the real cost of EV’s is not competitive with combustion engines and that every country that makes/uses a lot of them will become on net, poorer.

          It would make EV’s just as much white elephants as wind and solar which are also more expensive than fossil fuel electricity. No country on Earth has both lots of unreliable power and cheap electricity with monster subsidies.

          91

          • #
            John F. Hultquist

            without ?

            20

          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            Oh, on that I agree Jo.
            I’m aware that in Australia, there are no direct subsidies (apart from a reduction in the luxury vehicle tax for imports). In other countries there are substantial subsidies both direct and indirect for the entire auto industry. Some of these like in Germany are simply protection for what they already have. Others provide cross border deals (particularly common in the EU). And then there are the tariffs, like the aforementioned luxury vehicle tax, and the USA has a 25% tax on the large utes (like the Triton). Both distort the market. Also common is price support for fuel, common in the USA and in Indonesia, which again distorts the market, and the obverse in Europe, where fuel is highly taxed (Yellow Vests started from that)

            Back to subsidies – China recently slashed theirs with plans to remove it in 2020, Ontario does not subsidise but gives you access to the clearways for free. Everyone else provides some sort of subsidy.

            Maybe the ManicBeanCounter can give a better picture than I

            As to their white elephant status – it would appear that the more densely populated areas, particularly those with air quality problems, are keen to transition to EV’s, note that China is adding a million a year for mostly that reason.

            45

            • #
              OriginalSteve

              EVs fail the basic common sense test. The average user will say they are a pain to charge and inconvenient.

              And……only in a Socialst state of typical ill thought out and inefficiant “govt by committee” would EVs “work” only because all other modes of more efficient transport had been banned by an equally inept Socialist govt to “prove” EVs are “good”.

              Maybe if you only had to drive 10 km a day round trip from home, yes they make sense. But for your average australian, who would average at least 1-2 long distance 500km trips per year, plus running around after kids, going to the snow ( batteries hate cold ), going to the beach ( batteries hate salt water ) etc etc, there is *no* way EVs make any form of practical sense.

              Face it , EVs are impractical. The only thingthat keeps them even in the public eye is ideology – not common sense.

              42

  • #

    O’S, Agree with your comments. Have said this many times before: 99% of Australians are clueless about agenda 21/2030 which includes Bolt, Credlin, SKY, politicians, corporate companies, institutions, etc. Talking about emissions/Co2, Global warming/climate change is a political construct. They still don’t get it!

    132

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      The politics appear to be based on the writings of these people, and make it crystal clear there is an occult spiritual drive behind it.

      People see the politics, but never ask what makes people want to throw a functional society off a cliff, like sacrificing it in a fire…..

      Think about what is about to happen…a whole society is to be ” sacrificed” to the god of the UN…..

      100

    • #

      And I too agree.

      Agendas 21/2030 are the open declarations of the new collectivists. Once again it involves the reduction of man to a farmed species, to homo economicus, as tried so disastrously last century. A new generation of thugs and intellectuals is trying it on again. Remember jolly old George Bernard Shaw’s proposed death panels? (We do get the usual choice between “market” and “socialism”…but good luck sorting out the differences once the technocrats have done fiddling the market and disguising the socialism.)

      91

    • #
      joseph

      Yup . . . . .

      60

  • #

    It’s going to be a battle between Maccas and Hungry Jack’s to see who gets the choicest franchise possie at the charging station.

    Seriously, what are we looking at here?

    Elon Musk is only real in the sense that Joyce Mayne was real. The new business titans are government spooks and shills. This is not real business, not real enterprise. EVs are an old and okay idea whose usefulness is about to be stretched beyond rational limits into the mainstream. Just like solar and whirlygigs: clunky, expensive antiques hung off the side of the grid for no sensible purpose. It’s not about innovation and most certainly not about conservation.

    This is about exploiting the deliberate confusion between government and corporate in order to park trillions of new debt and printed money anywhere but in the price of a loaf of bread. (If bread goes to a hundred a loaf then we go full Weimar and the natives get restless. That level of beggary will take longer.) Even the Sheikdom of Norway, world’s biggest single investor, can’t find anything sensible to do with its sovereign wealth fund, aka oil money, so it tips it into green fairy floss.

    Guys, let’s roll with the coal. I actually like EVs in their little niche. I’m sure there are people they might suit. Be terrible if too many plugged in at six pm and sent the grid crashing. So coal!

    I said COAL.

    140

    • #

      Oh, and I might add…

      COAL.

      110

    • #
      Peter Fitzroy

      Up on the coast, one charging station is at a winery.

      414

      • #
        Hanrahan

        Perfectly logical.

        70

      • #
        AndyG55

        So bit the time the batteries are recharged.. the owner shouldn’t be driving anyway.

        That is greenie logic and idiocy..

        ooops… “greenie logic” and “idiocy” are the same thing.

        63

        • #
          Dennis

          By the time an EV driver reached Port Macquarie from Sydney after recharging at least once before arrival there would be temptation to indulge in a bottle or two.

          20

        • #
          Another Ian

          Years ago I met a bloke who’s outlook on travelling was that after about 50 miles you should call it a day and retire to the pub.

          He would fit with the logic of EVs but I doubt he could have afforded one.

          10

          • #
            OriginalSteve

            You could park your EV, go into a pub, come out to find 50 iphones plugged into it to charge up ( like a tech version of a tick… )

            00

      • #
        Another Ian

        So you can get pissed at the wait?

        00

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      There is the alternative methods of hydro, gas, or nuclear.
      We can rule out hydro as Australia is the driest continent. Besides The Greens (with gullible accomplices) have banned new dams in Australia.
      There remains nuclear with zero CO2 emissions; also banned in Australia by The Greens (with gullible accomplices).
      That leaves natural gas which offers much lower emissions than coal-fired (if introduced properly). also banned in Australia by The Greens (with gullible accomplices).
      Looks like coal is the only choice, unless you are prepared for electricity at 3 times the cost and available in quantity about 1 day in 3.

      140

      • #
        truth

        I agree Graeme No3: IMO labor has inadvertently made the watertight case for HELE COAL to be Australia’s bedrock electricity source…complemented by the CO2 to solid carbon CCC process being developed at RMIT…the one you don’t think will be viable.

        The researchers sound pretty confident that it WILL be viable and economic & it has lots of great spinoffs.

        So it looks to me as though …for Australia…. which is fundamentally different from all those European etal countries that are said to be way ahead of us with adoption of EVs ….a fact our ‘leaders’ seem blockheadedly…militantly….averse to recognising….the only way EVs will be viable is in a clean coal economy.

        Otherwise it seems to me the Australian economy and Australia itself is doomed to be bumbling around in the dark like idiots trying to survive on weather-dependent intermittents ….with weather deteriorating every year….so THEY say.

        40

        • #
          Kinky Keith

          What?

          Why?

          ” complemented by the CO2 to solid carbon CCC process being developed at RMIT…the one you don’t think will be viable.”

          There’s absolutely no scientifically or environmentally justifiable reason for CCS!

          It does Nothing for the Environment and our own Human Species has a functioning CO2 exchange rate of one hundred to one which signals that we grew and developed in atmospheres with much higher CO2 levels than at present.

          Normally we breathe in 400 ppm and exhale 40,000 ppm.

          We are a functioning part of the atmospheres CO2 cycle, accept reality and stop pandering to those who have enslaved us: please!

          KK

          60

          • #
            robert rosicka

            KK the greentards should be made to buy these .

            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lM5IgTxJtOk&feature=youtu.be

            32

          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            Got a link for that, or is it the usual exaggerated hot air (carbonated) that you specialise in.

            48

          • #
            truth

            Kinky Keith…

            Far from pandering… Kinky Keith …I’m being realistic.

            Like you I hate the idea of CCS…and I think it exposes the rancid hypocrisy of the environment Socialists that they consider it….it’s environmental vandalism….but the rest of the world DOES have leverage over Australia because they have the ability to deprive us of our markets without which …as a trading nation…we would soon become 3rd world poor.

            But it’s CCC ie carbon capture and conversion that this research is about…avoiding the dangerous sequestration.

            https://phys.org/news/2019-02-climate-rewind-scientists-carbon-dioxide.html

            The one thing that’s a worry is that the grip the CAGW hoax has on the world..and probably the abject fear of being seen to research anything that could possibly be seen by the CAGW thought police…to allow coal-fired power to exist and prevail… moves some of the scientists involved to present it…should it prove successful…as a geo-engineering process for removing CO2 from the atmosphere eg….

            ‘ Published in the journal Nature Communications, the research offers an alternative pathway for safely and permanently removing the greenhouse gas from our atmosphere’….they say that would be after the ‘transition’ to 100% renewables is complete.

            But they WOULD have to say that or they’d probably get no research grants…even though the applications have enormous benefits for some of the world’s most intractable problems…eg data storage.

            If it proved viable at scale and was the only way that Australia could use its coal and not be subject to consumer cartels and other mechanisms to force us to leave ALL our coal in the ground …you would be against it?

            20

            • #
              Kinky Keith

              Hi truth,

              I gave a green tick first time round.

              Unfortunately I have trouble imagining the processing that might be done cheap enough to make carbon conversion viable.

              It’s only going to be a political show piece when trees and grass do the same thing for free.

              I’d like to see the madness confronted and buried deep somewhere so we can start making headway with real problems.

              I suspect you feel the same.

              KK

              20

        • #

          “CO2 to solid carbon CCC process being developed at RMIT…”

          That’s the affair of RMIT, its donors and whoever believes they can make a non-subsidised quid or find some use for the development.

          Australia’s affair, as the biggest potential loser from the strangling of domestic coal power, is to implement new and efficient coal power generation, modernising and improving from mine to line. Efficiency means no albatross technologies, no green waste and no concessions to the temple priests of Gaia.

          Big Green is the pointy end of globalism. It cares about waste in that it wants and insists on waste. If carbon capture and non-hydro renewables were actually worthwhile as mainstream tech the globalists would not be interested in them.

          This is why we waste our time telling the agenda people that their plans are a great waste. The Undead actually want the waste…and they want us to waste our time persuading them of what they already know.

          Permission to treat as hostile.

          30

          • #
            Graeme No.3

            mosomoso:

            It’s a scam. We burn carbon (as coal) to generate energy. To reverse that reaction back to carbon requires more energy that we got in the first place (elementary thermodynamics). It doesn’t matter if they have a NEW, ALL SINGING & DANCING Catalyst, the energy balance is against this process ever being anything other than a consumer of energy (via electricity).

            10

  • #
    pat

    sad reminder:

    22 Jan 2018: SMH: Energy Minister Josh Frydenberg defies Coalition naysayers on electric cars
    By Nicole Hasham
    Energy Minister Josh Frydenberg has defied Coalition critics on electric cars, vowing the Turnbull government will support the fledgling technology and insisting it is better for the environment than traditional cars.
    Mr Frydenberg this month kickstarted debate on the issue in an interview and opinion piece for Fairfax Media, predicting more than one million electric vehicles would be on Australian roads by 2030 and likening the revolution to the introduction of the iPhone…

    read all:

    12 Jan 2018: Stand by, Australia, for the electric car revolution
    By Josh Frydenberg
    We live in the decade of disruption. Technology is transforming our lives at a rapid rate with no sector immune from its impact.
    In communications it’s the iPhone, in data management it’s the cloud and in energy it’s renewables and storage…
    ut there is another area of exciting technological disruption with real economic and environmental benefits that is yet to really take off here at home. Electric vehicles…

    While Australia’s 476 public charging stations are just a fraction of the more than 60,000 you can find across Europe, it will quickly grow over time.
    With these changes coming to the cost, range and infrastructure for electric vehicles in Australia, it is estimated that by 2025 there will be 230,000 such cars on our roads and more than one million by 2030. This will not only produce a good economic dividend for consumers, but also a better environmental outcome.
    With transport responsible for around 18 per cent of Australia’s emissions, the CSIRO Energy Roadmap estimates electric vehicles could reduce CO2 emissions by at least 15 million tonnes by 2030…

    One of the challenges that will come from the big increase in electric vehicles in Australia will be the demands on the electricity grid. An extra one million electric cars is the equivalent of 5.2 terawatt hours of power demand. This is about a 2 per cent increase in overall grid demand…
    The issue is not whether the grid has capacity to meet this increased demand, for it does…

    So, what are the next steps for the electric vehicle industry in Australia? Well firstly, there is a lot of activity already occurring at federal, state and industry level, but there is a need for greater coordination. This is where the Turnbull Government’s Vehicle Emissions Forum, which my colleague Paul Fletcher and I lead, can play an important role. Working on new vehicle emission and fuel efficiency standards it can provide a national platform for key stakeholders to share ideas and work together.

    At a federal level, we already support electric vehicles in a number of ways. The government provides a discount on the luxury car tax threshold for low emission vehicles; companies can earn carbon credit units under the Emissions Reduction Fund to transition their fleets to electric vehicles; the Clean Energy Finance Corporation is funding a number of programs that enable the purchase of electric vehicles and the Australian Renewable Energy Agency has provided financial support for research by ClimateWorks which has partnered with the Electric Vehicle Council, the national body representing the industry in Australia.

    At a state level, governments have responsibility for vehicle registration, stamp duty, government purchasing and are undertaking new charging infrastructure roll-outs. All important areas for reducing the costs for electric vehicle customers and thereby incentivising their uptake.

    Better coordination of existing and future activities around research and development, charging infrastructure planning, vehicle fleet targets and financial incentives, will bode well for the industry in the exciting decade ahead…
    https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/stand-by-australia-for-the-electric-car-revolution-20180112-h0hazy.html

    13 Jan 2018: SMH: Disruption from electric car ‘revolution’ will rival the introduction of the iPhone: Josh Frydenberg
    https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/disruption-from-electric-car-revolution-will-rival-the-introduction-of-the-iphone-josh-frydenberg-20180112-h0hajv.html

    30

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      What mileage can you get riding an i-Phone on the freeway?

      50

    • #
      Ted O'Brien.

      It will alll boil down to the cost of the batteries and supercapacitors. And savings can be made there by tailoring the battery to the particular job If a vehicle is doing the same small job on a regular basis, a small battery will do.

      Mind you, right now I can’t see batteries getting that cheap. Supercapacitors? Keep hoping!

      50

      • #
        Rokdoktor

        And following on from your comment on the price of batteries, where is all the lithium and other rare metals needed for these batteries going to come from? According to one estimate I saw, the world would need to lift its production of lithium by a factor of 20 to meet the expected demand that all these new EVs would produce.

        20

  • #
    Hanrahan

    1. Labor Green politicians are honest but stupid.
    2. Labor Green politicians don’t care less about the environment but want a great socialist car.

    I’ll excuse children and the young but no adult alarmist is honest. They know perfectly well that everything they say is built on a deliberate lie.

    Why do they hate civilisation so much they want to destroy it?

    142

    • #
      Greg Cavanagh

      Some might hate it, probably because so many people enjoy it, and that just doesn’t seem right.

      The rest are simply seeking opportunity for money or power or both.

      10

  • #
    mmxx

    It is not hard to imagine a future regional landscape filled with abandoned e-vehicles, leaking discarded batteries and unmaintained roads, bridges and electricity distribution networks.

    Green-leftists would argue that good would not be lost in that scenario, however. Horse and oxen farms and cartwrights would be businesses doing quite well supplying city and town essential transport needs. While food security might have become a day to day challenge where just the ruling elite gets well enough, capitalism would have fallen. Poverty would be equally distributed among the general poor and dispossessed.

    100

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      Here is an idea for the election campaign : arrange huge horse, cattle & sheep processions through the streets of the inner greenist suburbs.

      Why ? Because it is their future – along with all the stinking manure in the streets to clean up !

      82

      • #
        Kinky Keith

        Our local bakery had horse drawn delivery carts and often left garden fertiliser on the street near our home.
        Five minutes with a shovel and the circle of life continues.
        The “fertiliser” was mixed with soil and allowed to mature before actually being used.

        I know some will say “horse sh(t”, but that’s life.

        KK

        61

    • #

      There was a time
      in human history
      where we expanded
      out-out, crossing oceans
      and eyeing the universe
      through a telescope,
      now-now, honing in-
      Agenda Twenty-One,
      living in high-rise
      enclaves, surveyed,
      energy and
      vehicle-
      deprived,
      cut-back
      to for-
      tress
      size.

      90

  • #
    Serp

    Until the swappable universal battery in introduced there is no future whatsoever in electric vehicles and any person maintaining otherwise is insulting its own intelligence.

    80

    • #
      neil

      There will never be a swappable universal battery because manufacturer’s compete not cooperate. If a manufacturer develops a better battery why would they share, why would they give up a competitive advantage to their rivals. Since 1891 every vehicle in the world with tyres used the Schrader valve, we all know it as the tyre valve. It is the only component that was shared by every car, but recently some manufacturers have moved to the lighter presto valve developed for racing bicycles.

      So now there is not one single component used by every car in the world, there will never be a universal battery.

      100

      • #
        Ted O'Brien.

        Don’t worry Neil. The Market will sort that out.

        20

        • #
          neil

          The market has already sorted it out, that is my point. There will never be a universal battery.

          50

          • #
            Ted O'Brien.

            Many years ago my father told a story that when Henry Ford released the Model A in 1925 it was a very good car. A woman asked him: “How is it possible to sell this car so cheaply?”

            He replied: “Madam, if I could get sole rights to the spare parts I would give the cars away”.

            That policy is there to see today. But, if battery swapping becomes viable, there will be standardisation.

            50

      • #
        Robert Swan

        Nice story Neil, but it might not cover the EV battery.

        Cars would have suffered “range anxiety” if they had nozzle lock-in (say) in the filler: that you needed to pull up to a Ford branded pump to fill your Ford, and to a Mercedes pump to fill your Merc., etc. Manufacturers didn’t see themselves in the fuel selling business, and making the cars easily refuelled boosted their chances in the car selling business.

        Similarly, all these publically subsidised charging stations already have, I assume, a standard socket that fits any EV. Serp’s reasonable contention is that when EVs still don’t sell because of the umpteen wasted hours waiting while batteries charge, the next reasonable step is to standardise batteries. Otherwise you’ll only be able to quick-swap your Tesla at a Tesla station, your Nissan at a Nissan place, etc.

        As far as I can see, that’s not decided one way or the other. Do EV manufacturers see themselves in the EV selling business or as battery vendors?

        10

        • #
          neil

          There won’t be standard charging plugs, there are already several types, independent charging stations will have to offer different plugs like a bowser has different fuel hoses. manufacturer charge stations will only offer the plug they use.

          But as electric cars will always be a niche product charge stations will always be hard to find, so home charging is the only practical solution.

          10

    • #
      Greg Cavanagh

      The problem with swappable batteries is the life span and the cost of the battery itself. As the battery gets older it’s operation time is reduced. So every time you swap a battery and go for a drive, you’ve got a different maximum range. Pretty dangerous I think. And eventually it is dead for good. Who’s the lucky person who ends up replacing the dead battery with a brand new one?

      40

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    Who could remember The 2012 Pelosi GTxi SS/RT Sport Edition …

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAqPMJFaEdY

    50

  • #
    pat

    ***writer Clench seems not to know of the $28,000 EVs spruiked by Behyad Jafari from the Electric Vehicle Council, on ABC Breakfast – see comment #42 in jo’s Weekend Unthreaded thread. funny Jafari didn’t mention it to Clench! perhaps he thought Clench wasn’t as gullible as theirABC’s Fran Kelly:

    1 Apr: news.com.au: Huge problem with car prices: Too few affordable electric vehicles in Australia
    Australia’s car industry has fallen behind other countries’, and we now risk becoming a “first world country with a third world fleet”.
    by Sam Clench
    News Corp Australia’s online motoring editor David McCowen reports that, of the 1.15 million cars sold in Australia last year, about 1350 were electric…

    There are a few reasons for the gaping discrepancy.
    First, the selection of electric cars on offer in Australia is smaller than elsewhere in the world, and the cars we do have access to are rarely affordable…

    Electric Vehicle Council chief executive Behyad Jafari told news.com.au the lack of affordable options was due to investors’ uncertainty.
    “The rest of the world has developed policies to support the transition to electric vehicles. Australia hasn’t,” Mr Jafari said.
    “That lack of policy has created uncertainty for investment. We’ve had less deployment of particularly lower price electric vehicles.
    “There hasn’t been a comfort that this industry will be supported in Australia as it has been elsewhere.”…

    Think of facilities like high-speed charging stations. The lack of them exacerbates drivers’ worries that electric vehicles won’t have the range to carry them the vast distances between Australia’s cities.
    “We absolutely need more investment in things like charging infrastructure,” Mr Jafari said.
    “Then if you do need to go on those longer drives, you can make a pit stop, have a sandwich, recharge, then off you go again…
    He said the reality was that most owners of electric cars charged their vehicles at home overnight while they slept…

    When the Climate Change Authority (CCA) released its analysis of light vehicle emissions standards in 2014, it found the average light vehicle was emitting 192 grams per kilometre. Last year the National Transport Commission said the average had fallen to 182 grams.
    So it is clear that Labor is asking manufacturers for a huge reduction.
    “There are not many Australians driving a car under 105g a kilometre,” Energy Minister Angus Taylor said this afternoon.

    “The most popular car in Australia, the HiLux, is between 202-250. I do not know what tradies will do under the Labor policies. There is no car that can do what they need to do they can drive.”
    Labor has stressed its policy will only apply to new vehicles, not those already on the road.
    Opponents of the emissions measures worry that reducing the requirement to 105 grams would significantly raise the cost of those new cars.
    The CCA’s analysis found it would indeed add $1500 to the price, but that additional cost would be “more than offset” by savings on fuel within a year…

    The Australian Automobile Association (AAA) has called for both sides of politics to “clearly articulate” their vehicle emissions targets before the election…
    “A poorly designed (emissions) standard will drive up the cost of cars, the cost of petrol and significantly curtail the availability of popular vehicle makes and classes,” it said…

    ***In the meantime, however, even the cheapest of Australia’s electric cars, such as the Hyundai IONIQ and Renault Zoe, cost nearly $50,000.
    https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/huge-problem-with-car-prices-too-few-affordable-electric-vehicles-in-australia/news-story/64a87eb32a4a8d8c2fdc9664420058eb

    30

  • #
    Ted O'Brien.

    Don’t rush to dismiss the idea. Electric vehicles are already in widespread use and have been for a very long time. Electric trains stand out here, but battery power is already in use, e.g. fork lift trucks used in enclosed areas.

    In my view it’s nonsense to expect an electric car to look like an ICE powered car. And the ALP’s promise of “charging stations” is utter nonsense. Nobody will be driving into a charging station to wait for a car to charge. What will happen is that vehicles which are used a lot will swap batteries, which could be done in seconds if so desired.

    This system would also greatly relieve the intermittency problem, by having enough batteries to use only intermittent generation.

    The killer factor is what will the batteries cost? If batteries and/or supercapacitors can be manufactured cheaply enough, electric cars can be the transport of choice.

    51

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      Ahh sure that’s great idea. My 7 years old batteries that have lost some of their capacity will be swapped for new ones !

      Wonderful !

      Buy what will I pay ? At current prices 10 – 15 grand or more perhaps or more – just for a bloody recharge..

      Bugger !

      That’s a lead balloon mate.It will never fly or even float

      52

      • #
        Ted O'Brien.

        You’ll need a new car, Bill. One with a battery designed for swapping.

        You remind me that I haven’t yet inquired the price of a replacement battery for our new Caravelle which has stop/start technology, which, not being a city dweller I try to remember to turn off. I have since heard that a battery for a CX5 with stop/start costs $700. Hope the battery does last seven years!

        22

        • #
          Hanrahan

          The 12V battery in my hybrid is still good after 7 yrs because it has no starter.

          All this talk about EVs when the future should be hybrids. They really are cheap to own.

          20

          • #
            Greg Cavanagh

            We read either here or WUWT a couple months ago, that fleet vehicles were buying up the hybrids because of the subsidies. But they never used the battery only option, they ran continuously on fuel.

            Wherever there is a system, the system can be scammed.

            30

    • #
      ivan

      Ted, either you forgot the /sarc tag or you are not an engineer.

      To swap batteries the technology would have to be designed into the vehicles and all manufacturers would have to agree on a standard size/volume for the battery, not forgetting standard attachments. All of which points to standard size vehicles and hope that one size fits all, just as implied in the UN Agenda 21 which is ok if you want to be a slave living in a UN slave camp – I don’t!

      30

      • #
        Ted O'Brien.

        Seems you are not an engineer either.

        Assuming batteries become viable, batteries in cars can be swapped as easily as batteries in cameras. Same principles, just add wheels and hoists.

        Supercapacitors just might not need swapping, as by my understanding it may be possible to charge them quickly.

        12

    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      Swap and Go.

      What a gas.

      Do they use left-handed threads too?

      60

  • #
    robert rosicka

    Just as well all the raw materials needed for the six million plus electric cars can be grown organically on trees .

    92

    • #
      neil

      For Australia to meet Electricity Bills target we will have to buy half of all the electric cars produced in the world for the next decade. Currently the world only produces enough rare earth metals to produce 5,000,000 vehicles p.a. But this would mean no more drones, no more Dyson vacuums, no more high efficiency electric motors for anything else but cars.

      Not going to happen.

      90

  • #
    robert rosicka

    Abc regional are running a poll on faceache that asks do you support electric vehicles and at last look 70% were against but unsure of how many people had voted .

    20

  • #
    cedarhill

    This must be evolutionary. Every species that were “the smartest” species are all gone except humans. Evidence (observational) mounts that “climate change” and “Green” and the “Left” are the vehicles that will present the Darwin Award for species extinction to humans.

    50

  • #
    Hanrahan

    I never cease to be amazed at how so many people have no concept of scale.

    Browsing Hotcopper [my health has improved since I was banned] I came across this:

    Is anyone running 3 phase and solar with battery at home?
    Having a new home built and the central aircon unit they want to install is 3 phase so will require 3 phase to the switchboard, as I intend on fitting a solar system later with battery back up I am unsure it can work with 3 phase.

    Comments from anyone that has had experience with 3phase and solar would be appreciated.

    How could he possibly think that rooftop solar could meet any useful portion of a system needing 3 phase power?

    100

  • #
    pat

    another “smart” idea:

    Brisbane scooter riders fined for hundreds of safety breaches in Queensland
    ABC – 29 Mar 2019
    Figures also show more than 120 people were taken to hospital with injuries related to scooter use in the first two months since they were introduced in Brisbane…

    Electric scooter bursts into flames in Hougang flat, 2 residents injured
    The Straits Times – 30 Mar 2019
    SINGAPORE – An electric scooter that was left charging in the living room of a Hougang flat burst into flames on Friday evening (March 29), with four people in the unit fleeing for their lives…
    His stepfather, a 48-year-old pest control worker, was treated for minor burn injuries on his leg, while his uncle has been hospitalised, he added…
    According to Chinese-language newspaper Lianhe Wanbao, three pigeons were in cages inside the burnt flat.
    Wanbao reported that the homeowners, who were animal lovers, broke down in tears after they found out that the birds had died.

    At least 7 deaths connected to e-scooters in the United States
    San Antonio Express-News – 21 Mar 2019

    As electric scooters return to the streets, safety questions emerge
    Minneapolis Star Tribune-30 Mar 2019

    The CDC is studying e-scooter injuries
    Washington Post-15 Mar 2019
    “We were also hearing from hospitals about injuries…

    More Regulation? — Scooter dangers on crowded boardwalks
    10News San Diego – 11 hours ago

    25 Jan: JAMA Network Open: Injuries Associated With Standing Electric Scooter Use
    DOWNLOAD PDF
    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2722574?guestAccessKey=c8d43986-1131-4af7-b3bc-a9f9415cd3b3

    60

    • #
      Kinky Keith

      Reality again.

      Can’t some politician find a way to isolate us from It?

      KK

      20

    • #
      Ted O'Brien.

      No more than you would expect.

      Maybe we should check out India’s methods. A daughter went to a wedding last year, and my understanding of her report was that road rules were not visibly employed, but people seemed to arrive at their destinations unharmed, many on motor bikes. She saw the Taj Mahal, so it must have been in that region.

      40

  • #
    Betapug

    The perfect vehicle for Socialism indeed!
    Dynamic road pricing is coming shortly to regulate who can drive where and when (and how much you must pay for the privilege) to replace the harvesting of $billions of fuel tax revenue.
    Even better, the 5G high speed wireless network blanket coverage is going to allow Central to control also the speed at which you can drive in your permitted areas. https://business.financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/eu-officials-approve-speed-limit-technology-for-autos
    All charges to be deducted from your Big Brother living allowance.

    70

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Funny how all this points to the control freak Socialist nirvana of locking down the population.

      Society becomes one big open air gulag…..

      40

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Although I wonder how many of these control freak systems may become regularly “unreliable”….

      Modding may become popular if you actually want to have any form of freedom.

      No doubt Patricia would approve.

      20

  • #
    John of Cloverdale, WA, Australia

    So can you tow a trailer or boat with an existing EV?

    20

  • #
    Another Ian

    A suggestion for where the inspiration for this policy came from:-

    Go find yourself a copy of Peter Sellars and Co’s

    “How to win an election or at least not lose by much”

    and listen to the potential Labour minister for transport.

    I can’t remember his name but the Conservative one was Sir Orson Carte.

    30

  • #
    Dave in the States

    Here’s an idea: A true free market for automobiles. People are free to buy and drive whatever type of vehicle they want to-including EVs. No tax incentives. No subsidies. No fines. No fees. No mandates. Watch engineering innovation take off.

    60

    • #
      Dennis

      I remember that, free market capitalism, before governments were selectively choosing the winners and losers for consumers.

      40

    • #
      PeterS

      Sorry that ain’t going to happen. Governments are hungrier for more taxes than ever before, and it’s going to get much worse especially with an aging population.

      50

      • #
        Hanrahan

        PeterS, that, in a nutshell, is why this charge to EVs is a scam. As they replace ICEs [by mandate] all govs will be forced to gather the tax revenue from EVs that they have become accustomed to now.

        Once taxed, not subsidised, they will be even less affordable than they are now. There will be empty garages around the country.

        60

  • #
    Robdel

    The only country where EVs might just work is the Netherlands, flat and small.
    Was it not the notion of electric cars and concomitant costs that produced the yellow vest protests in France?

    50

    • #
      toorightmate

      I agree.
      The move to EVs is no less crazy than forcing every consumer of power in Australia to subsidise inefficient and costly wind and solar energy – all predicated by the CO2 hoax.

      30

  • #
    Dennis

    Don’t forget that the Turnbull Government, as he called it, set aside $300 million of taxpayer’s monies to encourage more EV sales, $100 million went to Macquarie Bank Leasing for them to encourage fleet operators to choose EV.

    It would be interesting to know how many fleet EV are now registered.

    I often drive past the Tesla recharging stations at Raymond Terrace (Heatherbrae) north of Newcastle and rarely see an EV parked there. Same goes but less often for Goulburn where the EV recharge is located near the railway station. And, at Artarmon in Sydney where Tesla have their showroom.

    40

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    It’s deja vu all over again …

    2019: Australia’s first locally manufactured electric van will be launched 11am Tuesday at smartenergy 19 at the International Convention Centre, Darling Harbour.

    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612940/the-new-safer-nuclear-reactors-that-might-help-stop-climate-change/

    1980: Horvath’s hydrogen Fairlane

    Brisbane’s City Plaza was buzzing as the revolutionary vehicle was unveiled on July 14, 1980.

    It might have looked like any other 1974 Ford Fairlane, but Horvath insisted that under the green bonnet was a device which could turn water into hydrogen via a controlled, thermonuclear reaction.

    Conventional wisdom was that you needed to surround such a reaction with tonnes of concrete shielding, but Horvath’s V8 emitted less radiation than a colour TV.

    Or so he said.

    https://www.couriermail.com.au/archive/news/horvaths-hydrogen-fairlane/news-story/24fddbda2900f1d0ac4b40083f858c2f

    20

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    PeterS

    Must have been an April Fool’s joke. This rush to electric everything is insane. For starters we won’t have the necessary infrastructure to charge those cars for possibly another decade or two. Batteries are too slow to charge – probably won’t be an issue in a decade or so. Etc.. I believe there will be a major advancement in portable electricity that will replace batteries. Perhaps a miniature nuclear reactor (April Fool joke). Then again who is to say there won’t be something radical to replace batteries. In time there will be but it could be a long while. In the meantime if people really believe a significant part of the population here in Australia can move to electric cars in such a short time then I might have a large piece of land on Mars I like to sell.

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  • #
    Another Ian

    Parallel reading

    “Ten ‘inconvenient’ Questions for ‘Climate Industry Entrepreneur of the Year’, Gov. Jay Inslee @jayinslee @govinslee”

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/04/01/%ef%bb%bften-inconvenient-questions-for-climate-industry-entrepreneur-of-the-year-gov-jay-inslee-jayinslee-govinslee/

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  • #
    Ross

    Slightly off topic but I thought this forum would appreciate the humour. This is a cut and paste of a comment in a Brexit thread on another blog:

    “Oxford University researchers have discovered the densest element yet known to science.
    The new element, Governmentium (symbol=Gv), has one neutron, 25 assistant neutrons, 88 deputy neutrons and 198 assistant deputy neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312.
    These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called pillocks.
    Since Governmentium has no electrons, it is inert. However, it can be detected, because it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact.
    A tiny amount of Governmentium can cause a reaction that would normally take less than a second, to take from 4 days to 4 years to complete.
    Governmentium has a normal half-life of 2 to 6 years.
    It does not decay, but instead undergoes a reorganisation in which a portion of the assistant neutrons and deputy neutrons exchange places.
    In fact, Governmentium’s mass will actually increase over time, since each reorganisation will cause more morons to become neutrons, forming isodopes.
    This characteristic of moron promotion leads some scientists to believe that Governmentium is formed whenever morons reach a critical concentration.
    This hypothetical quantity is referred to as a critical morass.
    When catalysed with money, Governmentium becomes Administratium (symbol=Ad), an element that radiates just as much energy as Governmentium, since it has half as many pillocks but twice as many morons. “

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  • #
    Maptram

    A radio station I was listening to a couple of weeks ago had a segment on EVs. One of the things mentioned was that AGL proposes to establish a network of charging stations which would provide “free” electricity, “free” because someone else is paying for it. I can see the “free” electricity will increase the risk of no power to the vehicle because EV drivers will try to get to the “free” power rather than charge the EV at home where they have to pay for the energy. Then there is the other issue. When a car runs out of petrol, more petrol is brought to the car, anyone can do it, friend, relative, breakdown service. If an EV gets a flat battery and there is no charging station available, recharge would be more difficult that recharging a flat battery on a fossil fuel powered car.

    30

  • #
    Rafe Champion

    The problem with electric cars is that they run on electricity…

    http://catallaxyfiles.com/2019/02/07/the-problem-with-electric-cars/

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  • #
    Matty

    I just despair at this. I have been running LPG in my cars since 1999 and I fully(naively) anticipated this would become more widespread. You can actually make a dent in emissions and air quality with LPG vehicles and we have plenty of it without turning one more sod. But with the demise of the Ford Falcon(which had more power than the petrol variant) there is no LPG dedicated car left on the market, and instead we have this bloody nonsense, while the cost of locally produced LPG has been jacked up to hobble it’s competitiveness. Many years later I’m about to get out of LPG – not quite what I had envisaged.

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    • #
      Dennis

      I had dual fuel vehicles from the 1980s until more recent years and the last was a Diesel with LPG injection (beware of other systems) that with 20% LPG injected with Diesel the engine burnt Diesel more efficiently and, figures rounded off, tests showed that combustion of Diesel improved from 80 per cent to high 90s per cent so emissions were lower, engine power and torque improved by 20 per cent and there was a small improvement in fuel economy.

      Part of the Howard Government’s Liberal-National Coalition) Kyoto Agreement “greenhouse gas emissions” reduction target initiatives was government/taxpayer subsidies for conversion of vehicles to dual fuel or dedicated LPG only. The Rudd Government (Labor) abandoned the subsidies. I believe that none of these changes have been done without thought and hidden at the time agendas. Such as the EU Standard changes to vehicle emissions and fuels. Fuels meaning phase out lead and sulphur. The cost for engine manufacturers and oil refineries was huge, and we of course paid for it. All along the EV transition was being planned. And what is next? Personal EV transport for the elites and the rest of us use restricted travel public transport and bicycles? Not by 2030, maybe?

      40

      • #
        Bill in Oz

        I’ve had LPG vehicles since 1996.
        I was under the impression
        That I was saving the planet
        via the low CO2 & other pollutants emitted.
        But now ?
        Shorten says have to switch
        To expensive EV’s to save the bloody planet
        Well bugger off ‘shortie’
        You’ve lost me completely
        And I used once upon a time
        To be a Labor party member.

        52

  • #
    Dennis

    Yet again the deception continues and the MSM/ABC go along with it on CO2 being talked about as carbon and carbon pollution, journalists use describe CO2 as carbon, the Opposition Leader spoke about the need for EV to reduce carbon.

    Very annoying.

    70

  • #
    TdeF

    Front page of the Australian today.. so much deceit and illogic it takes your breath away..

    “The Opposition leader said the costs of inaction would be greater than the economic pain imposed by his climate overhaul,
    saying that extreme weather events had inflicted a national damage bill of $18Bn last year alone.”

    Think of the savings! $18Bn a year. Amazing.

    So crippling all Australia is an urgent obligation of his government, for our own good.

    It is clear to the Opposition leader that every storm, every flood, every drought, every bit of weather related damage in the last 12 months is due to ‘Climate Change‘.

    “I love a sunburned country,
    a land of sweeping plains,
    of rugged mountain ranges,
    of droughts and flooding rains”

    is now all Climate Change.

    And our fault.

    Caused by Carbon Dioxide, coal, iron ore, smelting, agriculture, sheep, meat, power generation, transport, aircraft, termites, cattle, camels, koalas, ants and people. Get rid of the people and the businesses and live on the dirt without fire and we will all be saved from the weather and bushfires and floods and droughts and cyclones?

    Where is Tony Abbott, the one Prime Minister in Australia’s history who publicly called this crap?

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    • #
      TdeF

      So kill that $50Bn in coal exports, that $17Bn in gas exports, the smelting industries are either gone or near shut down. We import diesel for South Australia and Tasmania to run their governments and our defence submarines and we have 7 days reserve.

      It’s all worth it according to Bill Shorten. The savings will be $18Bn and Australia will no longer have bushfires, droughts, floods, cyclones and damaging storms. How unbelievable is that?

      We might stop the $48Billion iron ore exports too, as the oxygen is used to produce CO2.

      Stop the agricultural exports as well. There’s another $44Bn a year which comes back as CO2.

      We will be the heroes of the world.

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      • #
        Dennis

        Got to get rid of that carbon and carbon pollution.

        sarc

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      • #
        TdeF

        How can Shorten get away with claiming the damage from “Climate Change” was $18,000,000,000 last year in Australia alone?

        That is so outrageous and yet no one comments, not Graham Lloyd, not anyone.

        Why would Morrison say nothing? Or anyone else?

        All the commentators can say is that it may cripple ‘Blue Chip’ companies. Is that all?

        Potentially our next Prime Minister says the sky is falling and everyone agrees?

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        • #
          TdeF

          Why does no one question this?
          When did the climate become climate change?
          When did all bushfires, floods, droughts and cyclones become climate change?

          Where are the reporters? Why is no one even bothering to fact check let alone comment on an outrageous statement like this?

          So the rains which were supposed to hit a part of Queensland went slightly sideways and rained on someone else? That’s not Climate Change. That’s luck. Micro climate change I suppose, caused by local CO2 levels, especially around smelters.

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      • #
        Rob Leviston

        “How to cut off your nose, to spite your face!”

        00

  • #
    pat

    2GB (owned now by 9 Network, whose chairman is Peter Costello) news bulletin last nite only mentioned Coalition said Labor’s EV plan was “infeasible”, then gave maximum quote to a “think-tank”!

    Wikipedia: Infrastructure Partnerships Australia
    Infrastructure Partnerships Australia (IPA) is an industry body representing Australia’s infrastructure industry. Infrastructure Partnerships Australia was launched in 2005 by then NSW Premier Morris Iemma (Labor), and in Victoria by then Treasurer John Brumby (Labor), drawing together senior public and private sector Chief Executives in infrastructure businesses…
    The organisation provides policy research and commentary around a number of key issues in Australia, including:
    Road User Charging
    Electricity networks
    And other transport, utilities, social infrastructure and taxation reforms…
    IPA’s Patrons include … former Sydney Water Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer Kerry Schott…
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrastructure_Partnerships_Australia

    same “think-tank” quoted here:

    1 Apr: AFR: Electric cars drive ‘urgent’ need to reform road tax
    by Jenny Wiggins
    Australia needs to get cracking on charging electric car drivers to use roads or risk losing $17 billion a year in fuel excise if Labor’s new national electric vehicles policy gains traction, infrastructure bodies have warned.
    “Electrification is an enormous opportunity to rethink the way we deliver roads for a better outcome for users and taxpayers,” said ***Infrastructure Partnerships Australia’s chief executive Adrian Dwyer.
    Mr Dwyer, who represents private companies as well as government agencies, said it was “relatively urgent” for the Commonwealth to act…

    Australians ‘want electric vehicles’
    The Electric Vehicle Council, which represents car manufacturers, said the Coalition should support Labor’s plan to show that Australia was committed to shifting towards electric vehicles.
    “Australians want to own electric vehicles, this much we know from polls,” said the council’s chief executive, Behyad Jafari. “But they need much better support from their government.”…
    https://www.afr.com/news/politics/national/if-electric-cars-are-in-the-fast-lane-their-drivers-must-pay-road-tax-20190401-p519nn

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  • #
    Dennis

    2019 Nissan Leaf EV road test in Victoria, not yet to be recommended apparently, for most people at least …

    https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/2019-electric-vehicle-megatest-introduction

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  • #
    pat

    a total beat-up:

    AUDIO: 3min 42sec: 2 Apr: ABC AM: Coal-fired power station lobbied Melissa Price for help
    By Stephanie March on AM
    The Federal Environment Minister Melissa Price’s office told an energy company she would request a review of how coal-fired power stations can earn money from the Government’s Emissions Reduction Fund after the company complained it wasn’t allowed to bid into the scheme to upgrade its NSW power station.
    Documents obtained through Freedom of Information show Melissa Price’s office made the offer, after repeated lobbying by a representative of Delta Electricity whose chairman is political donor and energy businessman Trevor St Baker.
    Featured:
    Trevor St Baker, Delta Electricity
    Kelly O’Shanassy, Australian Conservation Foundation
    https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/am/coal-fired-power-station-lobbied-melissa-price-for-help/10961504

    seems it has already had an airing on 4 Corners:

    2 APR: ABC: Coal-fired power station lobbied Environment Minister for help, FOI documents reveal
    Four Corners By Stephanie March
    Late last year Delta Electricity wanted to bid for taxpayer-funded carbon credits to replace turbine blades at its Vales Point Coal Fired Power Station in New South Wales, the documents show.
    The Clean Energy Regulator rejected the request.
    In emails John Short, a representative of Mr St Baker’s company, disputed the regulator’s decision. Mr Short requested a meeting between Ms Price and Mr St Baker as “a matter of urgency”.

    The emails suggest the meeting never happened, but an adviser to Ms Price told Mr Short that while the Minister was unable to direct the regulator on individual matters she would ask the Emissions Reduction Assurance Committee to carry out a review covering “the ways coal-fired power stations can earn credits” through the ERF.
    “The Minister also notes it is important the ERF provides opportunities for participation from projects across the economy, including industry,” the Minister’s adviser wrote.

    The ERF uses taxpayer money to pay for carbon abatement — usually activities like tree planting or avoided deforestation…

    In the emails, Mr Short wrote the regulator’s rejection of the Vales Point project was to “effectively discriminate against a carbon abatement project involving a coal-fired power plant and as a result… is inconsistent with the Government’s Energy Policy, which is technology neutral”…

    Kelly O’Shanassy, the chief executive of the Australian Conservation Foundation — which submitted the freedom of information request — said even though it was within the Minister’s purview to ask for the review, Ms Price should have rejected Delta Electricity’s request for help…

    Mr St Baker says his company was seeking $15 million to $16 million from the fund to replace turbine blades at the Vales Point Power Station, which he said would make the plant more efficient and reduce its carbon emissions.
    That same upgrade has now been shortlisted by the Government as one of the energy projects it is considering underwriting, Mr St Baker said…
    In 2017, the St Baker Family Trust made a $50,000 donation to the Liberal Party, but Mr St Baker said he has probably given more money to the Labor Party over the years.
    “We made payments to attend business programs of both the Labor and Liberal and National Party every year — we’ve been doing that for years, the same as all businesses do,” he said…

    Should taxpayer money be used for coal-fired power plants?
    Economist Paul Burke, an associate professor at the Australian National University, said there were better ways to make coal-fired power stations more efficient than using taxpayers’ money…

    The Vales Point Power Station is 40 years old and due to come to the end of its life in about 10 years, but Mr St Baker has flagged the possibility of keeping it open longer.
    He said the turbine upgrade would not assist in extending the life of the power station.
    “The investment we are making now has insignificant relationship to whether that power station extends beyond 2029,” he said…
    “Remember coal plants are often underused in terms of their capacity factor, they could be used more as well, so this in economics this is called a rebound effect — if you improve here the emissions efficiency of the plant, this could lead to the plant being used more,” he said.
    “It could also lead to the plant being used for longer as well.”
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-02/coal-fired-power-station-lobbied-environment-minister-foi-reveal/10960544

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    • #
      Maptram

      Economist Paul Burke, an associate professor at the Australian National University, said there were better ways to make coal-fired power stations more efficient than using taxpayers’ money.

      “We have much better policy approaches that could be used for the fossil fuel sector, for example carbon pricing or regulation of emissions,” he said.

      This is what happens when economists are allowed to speak about efficiency. Their idea of efficiency is price and regulation, not improving the hardware.

      And why not use taxpayers money to improve the efficiency of coal-fired power stations, the only way solar and wind power is available is because of taxpayer (and fossil fuel generated power user) subsidies

      40

  • #
    Ve2

    Jo, you left out the cost of re-equiping every fire station in the country with specialised firefighting equipment.
    The retraining of 61,000 volunteer firefighters and the additional trucks to carry the 15,000 litres of water required to put out the car fires.
    The disruption to traffic for the 5-8 hours it takes to put out the car fire.
    The immense bushfire danger.

    91

  • #

    Story of The Little Red (Green-car) Engine.

    Hmm, that’s a big hill, gonna’ charge right up it…

    I THINK I CAN!

    I think I can,

    I think I can…

    I thought I could…

    But I couldn’t.

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  • #
    TdeF

    The size of a medium battery in an electric car is 0.5-0.6 tonne for as much energy in 80kg of petrol with an average of 40kg.

    So a million electric cars would be accelerating and decelerating and lifting and dropping a totally unnecesssary 0.5tonne weight.

    Can’t anyone see that takes as much energy again as currently being used. So we need twice as much energy against say a hybrid car with 16% battery for kinetic savings. That means ultimately twice as much power and twice as much CO2.

    Why? Can someone explain why we would burn twice as much fossil fuel to save CO2?

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  • #
    TdeF

    Looking for similar statements to Bill Shorten’s $18Bn Climate Change damage bill in Australia

    2017 Associated Press

    Major hurricanes, wildfires, drought and tornadoes have led to highest ever damage costs, as expert says extremes
    have ‘climate change fingerprints on them

    With three strong hurricanes, wildfires, hail, flooding, tornadoes and drought, the United States tallied a record high bill last year for weather disasters: $306bn

    So you just leave out the word ‘fingerprints‘ and you have $306Bn from Climate Change in one year in the US.

    All fixable with electric cars and shutting down business, agriculture, aircraft and sl*ughtering all your livestock. Sounds simple. A bit like the Rev Jim Jones solution in Guyana.

    90

  • #
    neil

    Yesterday Shorten was telling us we have to stop using coal and today he is claiming the only reason the government will return a surplus tonight is from coal revenue like that’s a bad thing.

    So Shorten would rather stay in deficit forever rather than sell coal to countries who will just by it from someone else if we don’t.

    90

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      The contradictions of Shorten’s policies are so obvious yo everybody except his deluded greenist followers !

      91

  • #
    TdeF

    I just wonder how adding 500kg to the weight of every car in Australia is going to save energy? Then that’s just logic and science and facts. Nothing to do with Climate Change then.

    80

    • #
      TdeF

      The TINY Nissan Leaf weighs 1.55 tonnes.

      80

    • #
      RickWill

      Weight is not a key factor if the vehicle has regenerative braking. Hybrids are heavier than basic ICE vehicles for vehicles of similar size but use about half the fuel in traffic as a conventional vehicle.

      The electric vehicles pay considerable attention to rolling friction and windage so they get as much from the battery as possible. Running the air-conditioner in city traffic can knock out 30% or more of the range in slow traffic.

      In the early 1980′s the Formula 1 fuel allowance was 250l per race and refuelling at stops was a requirement. Now the fuel limit is 105kg per race and the car does not refuel. That gives an indication of the improvement in engine efficiency and energy recovery systems. The downforce has increased to improve cornering speed so that adds to drag.

      40

      • #
        TdeF

        Sure assuming a 100% efficient energy recovery system. Kinetic and potential energy recovery in this perfect would would mean that weight would not matter. However it is not true. There are losses everywhere and there are a lot of things like rolling resistance which go up with weight and tyre size. Drag too goes up with size and size goes up.

        The formula one cars are light hybrids with a maximum KERS system of 60kw, so 16% of the weight/power. All the kinetic recovery is available and you still have a light car. My comment is about 100% battery cars.

        I am a great believer in four wheel drive hybrid cars. It is this insane idea that adding a half tonne battery somehow saves the environment. It also can take two days to charge and you cannot drive any great distance in the cold or using the power.

        30

        • #
          TdeF

          Consider an electric motor at 85% efficiency. Then a braking generator at 85% efficiency. That’s a 30% loss in and out. The heavier the car, the higher the actual losses and the greater the loss, which has to be made up with battery or petrol. Rolling resistance, cornering, grip losses, heating of tyres, damped bouncing on the suspension.

          30

      • #
        David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

        So to get to work you have to turn off the aircon? In a traffic jam on the M4? In summer?
        And how do these batteries perform on hot days, say over 35 degrees? 40?
        I just hope my v6 outlasts me. And Shorten doesn’t get in.
        Cheers,
        Dave B

        40

        • #
          Another Ian

          The skiing fashionable fraternity better realise that they don’t work so well when the temperature gets into the minuses as well

          20

  • #
    Ian1946

    Could someone please check my maths on this.

    100,000 EV’s each having an 84kw battery. Using a 7 kW charger it will take 12 hours to fully charge the battery. If so an extra 84kw of power will be consumed by the vehicle’s battery.

    Multiply this by 100,000 and an extra 8.4 Gw of power will be needed between 6pm and 6 am. As solar produces zero at night, and often the wind blows less at night, the base load will increase to 24Gw from the current 18Gw.

    This would require the construction of 10Gw of reliable power from either Coal or Nuclear sources.

    If I am correct then electric vehicles on a grand scale are impossible as neither Extreme labor socialist’s or the lib socialists would build the required infrastructure.

    40

    • #
      TdeF

      You need to speak of instantaneous power in GW/Kw or total energy in GWhr or KWhr, to compare apples with apples. A Tesla is around 80kwhr total energy.
      Time is needed to calculate energy. GWhrs not Gw.

      However at any instant during charging of 100,000 EVs you need 7kw x 100,000 or 700MW extra power at any instant during the charging process.

      To charge at 7kw and 240 volts, you would need to draw 28amps. That would be a special heavy load circuit for a home where the limits are around 16amps, close to that required for an electric stove. Of course this all costs money, but it’s a small price to pay for saving the world. For a 80kwhr Tesla, that would mean 11.5 hours. On a standard outlet, 23 hours.

      If you are stuck in the bush, you need a very long power cord. Or carry a spare 500kg battery in the boot.

      30

      • #
        crakar24

        The maximum you could charge the battery at would be 3.84KWh ergo it would charge your EV in 22 hours as Tdef has stated alternatively you could spend an additional $1,750 to set up an EV charging station at home and up to a futher $2500 for a charging unit. So you buy a car for 50K but it is useless unless you spend a few grand more to charge it? And this is a good idea?

        Anyway back to pricing, so lets say you pull 16 amps for only 8 hours on the off peak rate at 19 cents (In SA) we have 3.8KW X 8 = 30.4 KWH and then X by 19 = $5.76 for less than half a charge. Do that everyday equals an additional $519 on your power bill.

        Of course this all depends on you gaining access to the off peak and of course its only cheap now because nobody wants the power so we can expect the off peak to go up eveb faster than it has in recent years so lets crunch the numbers at 40c shall we?

        30.4 x 40 = $12.16 for less than half a charge and of course thats an additional 1 K in your quarterly power bill, remember this is less than half a charge so lets assume you splash the cash and get fast charger at your house…………..actually there is no need we all know the result. Unfortunately Labor will win the next election, liddell will shut down at the earliest possible time and we will get this carp shoved down our throats and its 3rd world here we come. All thanks to uneducated herd plodders like Peter F.

        40

        • #
          Another Ian

          IIRC max motor size on a SWER line here in Qld is 5 hp.

          And most places on the line would need their owncharger with an infliction of EVs.

          No doubt that will work a treat.

          Bugger the bush again

          10

  • #
    Bill in Oz

    Slightly off topic !

    LABOR WILL OVER RIDE THE CONSTITUTION TO GET IT’S WAY ON THE MURRAY DARLING !

    The Australian constitution give all authority to make laws about our rivers ( including the Murray Darling basin ) to the state parliaments & governments. For the Murray Darling Basin these are the parliaments of NSW, Qld, Victoria, South Australia.

    There is a way to change the Australian Constitution : by referendum with a majority of voters Australia & in 4 states, approving the proposed changes.

    But Labor, if it wins government in the next Commonwealth elections, will attempt to over ride the constitution completely by attempting to seize all power to make the law & regulations, on the Murray darling basin.

    There are problems with the Murray Darling basin and the management of the rivers in the catchment. Changes are needed to improve things.

    But in my opinion this Labor policy is totally wrong. It is unconstitutional. And thus illegal. I can never support a party which has such policies.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/02/murray-darling-water-plan-labor-says-its-prepared-to-override-states

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  • #
    pat

    1 Apr: CNN: Chris Isidore: Get ready for a big drop in Tesla sales
    Tesla is probably about to report the largest drop in auto sales in the company’s history.
    That’s not a shock —Tesla faced some special circumstances last quarter. But it’s still a concern: Tesla needs to keep its sales pace high to pay down its sizable debts.
    Tesla will report first quarter sales and production figures Tuesday, and Wall Street analysts expect them to be sharply lower than the 90,700 cars that the company sold and delivered to customers last quarter. Analysts predict Tesla delivered just over 50,000 cars over the last three months.

    That’s still significantly more than what Tesla reported a year ago, when Model 3 production was just getting started. During that quarter, the company sold less than 30,000 vehicles. But Tesla sales have never fallen so much quarter-over-quarter…

    First, Tesla rushed to complete some sales before the end of last year so buyers could take advantage of a $7,500 federal tax credit, which lowered the amount people had to pay for Tesla’s vehicles. That tax credit has been cut in half for sales completed in 2019 — potentially making a Tesla a somewhat tougher sell for budget-conscious buyers…

    Second, the company started shipping its Model 3 to China and Europe for the first time in the first quarter.
    Tesla was holding off on international sales as it tried to fill as many US orders as possible, largely so it could capitalize on the full tax credit before it was reduced. But the new push on international sales has been a logistical challenge for Tesla, which said in January that it would deliver 10,000 fewer Model 3s than it produced because it takes longer to ship the cars abroad…
    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/01/business/tesla-sales-first-quarter-2019/index.html

    1 Apr: Forbes: Hackers Use Little Stickers To Trick Tesla Autopilot Into The Wrong Lane
    by Thomas Brewster
    Elite hackers from China have found a way to trick a Tesla Model S into going into the wrong lane by strategically placing some simple stickers on the road…
    It’s not the first time Keen Labs has exposed potential problems in the safety and security of Tesla’s digital systems. Back in 2016, the hackers discovered a way to remotely take control of a Tesla’s brakes…

    UPDATE: A Tesla spokesperson told Forbes that it had addressed the vulnerabilities regarding remote control of they steering wheel before the Keen researchers had even been in touch. As for the other issues, the spokesperson added: “The rest of the findings are all based on scenarios in which the physical environment around the vehicle is artificially altered to make the automatic windshield wipers or Autopilot system behave differently, which is not a realistic concern given that a driver can easily override Autopilot at any time by using the steering wheel or brakes and should always be prepared to do so, and can manually operate the windshield wiper settings at all times.”
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2019/04/01/hackers-use-little-stickers-to-trick-tesla-autopilot-into-the-wrong-lane/

    10

  • #
    John of Cloverdale, WA, Australia

    Forget your boat, trailer, and caravan, another use for your towbar.

    20

  • #
    robert rosicka

    I’ve just done a study to confirm so many electric cars will cause a runaway effect through electromagnetic interference on the ozone layer causing the world to heat up by over 20 degrees Celsius.
    I’d love to show you how I worked it out but you know how it goes heh heh .

    41

  • #
    pat

    O/T…

    1 Apr: ConservativeTreehouse: sundance: Mark Levin Interviews John Solomon and Sara Carter….
    Journalists Sara Carter and John Solomon sit down for a lengthy discussion of the multi-year weaponization of the DOJ, FBI and intelligence apparatus to target Donald Trump and his administration. This is the biggest political scandal of our lifetime.
    VIDEO: 41min19sec

    There can be no ‘moving on’ until every measure is taken to hold these participants accountable for their unlawful and unconstitutional effort…
    If we do not raise our voices, today, tomorrow and for as long as it takes; and demand a full reckoning of the uncovered corruption over the past three years; the administrative state will simply bury it. There is no doubt the weaponization of our government will happen again; only the next time we will not be as fortunate to have a President that can withstand the onslaught on our behalf….

    CHECK TRUMP SKETCH…READ ON
    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/04/01/mark-levin-interviews-john-solomon-and-sara-carter/

    10

  • #
    RickWill

    Given the bi-partisan support for EVs in the Federal Parliament, I suggest the entire Com car fleet be converted to EVs. EVs must cost no more than the existing ICE vehicles in the fleet. That rules out Jaguar and Telstra. Hello Ioniq and Leaf.

    40

  • #
    pat

    31 Mar: HeraldScotland: Big Six all hike energy bills as new price cap comes in to force
    By Herald Scotland Online
    Gas and electricity firms are pushing their bills up to within £1 of a new cap which comes in to force on April 1, Which? said.
    Regulator Ofgem has raised the controversial price cap for a nominally typical dual fuel bill by £117 a year, to £1,254. Which? said householders could end up paying £1 billion more a year in total.
    More than 10 million homes are still powered and heated by energy sold at default standard tariffs. Critics believe the cap, which was designed to stop rip-off bills, has been ineffective…

    Natalie Hitchins, Which? Head of Home Products and Services, said: “Many people who hoped the price cap would bring an end to unwelcome price increases will be left reeling after price hike Monday adds more than one billion pounds to their energy bills.
    “If you are one of the millions of energy customers stuck on a rip-off standard variable or default tariff, our advice is simple – switch as soon as possible…

    Mobile phone bills and TV subscription costs set to go up at 2.6 per cent and 5.1 per cent respectively today. Digital TV provider Freeview said a survey had found people thought they were spending £29 on monthly subscriptions – but we’re actually paying £149.
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17540138.big-six-all-hike-energy-bills-as-new-price-cap-comes-in-to-force/

    comment in above refers to:

    22 Feb: GWPF Press release: GWPF Finds Major Error In EU Energy Study
    Authors of EU Commission report confirm mistake
    In his column earlier this week, Dr John Constable, the GWPF’s energy editor, pointed out that the EU Commission’s recent study of the effect of climate and other policies on international competitiveness contained a substantive error. The report claimed that annual levies on UK consumers in 2016 for subsidies to renewable electricity were €1.57 billion, whereas the correct figure is closer to €7 billion.

    The EU Commission’s consultants have confirmed the mistake in writing to Dr Constable:
    “You are correct that the largest part of the other subsidies was from the Renewables Obligation and that these were not allocated to ‘financed by end users’ as they should have been. Thank you for spotting this error, we are correcting the figures and expect a revised report to be online soon.”…LINKS
    https://www.thegwpf.com/gwpf-finds-major-error-in-eu-commission-analysis-understating-uk-renewables-subsidy-costs/

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  • #

    Let’s keep in mind that the planet-saving compact diesel fad was only meant for ten years.

    The EV fad, another debt-parking scheme, will likely last no longer. With the absurd global real estate bubble puncturing and markets falling, a new distraction and debt trench is needed.

    Rest assured, in ten or so years time we will be hearing about the evils of lithium and cobalt mining. Then it will be cash-for-electric-clunkers and back to…maybe LPG? Whatever.

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    pat

    behind paywall:

    1 Apr: UK Times: Denmark puts a stopper in Russia’s Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline to Europe
    by Oliver Moody, Berlin
    The construction of an €11 billion gas pipeline from Russia to Germany could be frozen for years because Denmark has raised eleventh hour environmental concerns about its route.
    The Nord Stream 2 project had been expected to begin pumping natural gas along the floor of the Baltic by the end of the year, to the chagrin of many of Germany’s allies, who say that it will leave Europe more dependent on the Kremlin for its energy…

    Almost 600 miles of pipes have already been laid and the terminals at either end are well on their way to completion but the work now faces an indefinite delay. The chief stumbling block is the Danish island of Bornholm, located at an important strategic position between Sweden and Poland. Unlike the other four countries along the course of Nord Stream 2, Denmark has stalled on issuing a permit for construction in its waters, citing potential risks to wildlife and human safety. The firm has already proposed two routes around Bornholm: one off the island’s southern shore, threaded through Danish territorial waters; the other further away to the north, just outside the zone…

    2 Mar: EnergyReporters: Nord Stream boss warns of years of delays
    A lengthy delay could force Russia to renew its gas transit agreement with Ukraine, while it awaits a final verdict…
    The Danish island of Bornholm, between Sweden and Poland, has led Denmark to stall on issuing a permit for construction in its waters, fearing the potential risk to wildlife and human safety.
    The issue is complicated by a 2017 Danish law allowing its foreign minister to veto the project on national security grounds…

    The Nord Stream 2 consortium has proposed a route to the south of the island through Danish territorial waters and another to the north, outside the zone.
    Last week the Danish Energy Agency (DEA) suggested running the pipelines further to the south, near Polish territory. This will require a complex environmental impact assessment involving the consultation of several other countries. Poland is heavily opposed to Nord Stream 2.

    Matthias Warning, CEO of Nord Stream 2, told his partners that years of delays could be expected. “This proceeding will already take several months and can be taken to appeal again — two possible court proceedings,” he wrote in a letter, according to Poland’s Biznesalert. “All in all it may take years. During such proceedings t,he DEA could put a parallel southern route application on hold.”

    Nord Stream 2 would not comment on Warnig’s leaked letter.
    Copenhagen’s reticence to grant its approval follows the introduction of an EU directive designed to bring Nord Stream 2 under closer scrutiny.
    https://www.energy-reporters.com/policy/nord-stream-boss-warns-of-years-of-delays/

    Updated 1 Apr: Politico: Nord Stream 2 runs aground in Denmark
    The project is backed by five West European companies — Austria’s OMV, Anglo-Dutch company Shell, France’s Engie and Germany’s Uniper and Wintershall…

    Warnig said the deadline for Nord Stream 2 to appeal the Danish decision was April 23. “This proceeding already will take several months and can be appealed again (two possible court proceedings). All in all it may take years. During such proceedings the DEA could put a parallel southern route permit application on hold.”
    Sebastian Sass, EU representative for Nord Stream 2, said the company “will now carefully evaluate” the agency’s request and “then decide what steps should be taken,” adding that the agency “has not rejected either of the two pending permit applications by Nord Stream 2.”…

    But it’s clear that the decision is a problem for the pipeline…
    https://www.politico.eu/article/nord-stream-2-runs-aground-in-denmark/

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    • #
      RickWill

      So sad – all Germans will be required to face a wind generator and blow as hard as they can for as long as they are able. Unless they abandon the planned closure of their coal power stations of course.

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    pat

    propaganda video, ending with 50% half of our energy by 2050 will have to come from RE, plus plant trees, capture CO2; then deceptively goes on to “it’s something ALL SCIENTISTS agree on”:

    1 Apr: BBC: Saving the planet: The next move
    By Kevin Keane, BBC Scotland’s environment correspondent
    VIDEO: 2min21sec: Climate change: How 1.5C could change the world
    Like superheroes, their job is to save the planet and this week 180 climate scientists are meeting in Edinburgh to plan their next move.
    To be technical, they are Working Group III of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) – but clearly that doesn’t sound so exciting…

    Co-chair Priyadarshi R Shukla added: “This report will provide governments with scientific information to underpin responses to climate change in the context of sustainable development.”…

    It coincides with an opinion poll by YouGov ***for Stop Climate Chaos Scotland (SCCS) which said 70% of respondents supported greater action to tackle climate change…READ ALL
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-47746289

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    pat

    1 Apr: TheNationalScotland: Stop Climate Chaos Scotland survey shows climate concerns are rising
    By Greg Russell, journalist (?)
    SURGING levels of concern about climate change have left 70% of people in Scotland supporting further action across a range of sectors to tackle it, according to a new survey.
    ***YouGov’s research for Stop Climate Chaos Scotland (SCCS) comes as the world’s leading climate scientists – the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) – gather in Edinburgh this week, and as Holyrood prepares to debate the Scottish Government’s Climate Bill for the first time tomorrow…

    According to the survey, 78% of respondents are either more concerned about climate change or as concerned as they were 12 months ago; one in three are more concerned now than a year ago; 70% support Scotland taking greater action in transport, food and homes to tackle climate change; and 88% of SNP voters support Scotland taking greater action over the next few years across similar sectors to prevent climate change.
    It also showed the most common reasons for fears over the issue are concern for future generations (71%), threat to wildlife (65%), natural disasters (62%) and rising sea levels (60%)…

    Gail Wilson, SCCS campaigns manager: “As 200 leading UN scientists from around the world gather in Edinburgh this week, MSPs at Holyrood must take note of the growing clamour for urgent action on climate change…

    Jamie Livingstone, head of Oxfam Scotland, a member of SCCS, said: “Despite doing least to cause it, climate change is hitting the world’s poorest people hardest, forcing people from their homes and increasing hunger.
    “Worryingly, climate change makes extreme weather events, like the devastating Cyclone Idai in Mozambique, Malawi and Zimbabwe, much more likely. As a nation which has historically profited from fossil fuels, Scotland has a duty to act with greater urgency when tackling climate change and it’s hugely encouraging that people support faster action.
    “Humanity needs bold, brave leadership and action right now – and Scotland has the chance to show genuine leadership.”…

    Head of planning for another SCCS member, RSPB Scotland, Aedan Smith, said: “Climate change is already starting to impact on wildlife in Scotland and the IPCC have identified climate change as one of the biggest threats to wildlife right across the world…

    Professor Jim Skea, co-chair of an IPCC working group, told the Scottish Parliament’s Environment Committee on the Climate Bill: “Everything that you do now will buy you benefits further down the line.”
    https://www.thenational.scot/news/17540545.stop-climate-chaos-scotland-survey-shows-climate-concerns-are-rising/

    ***Newspoll is an Australian opinion polling brand, published by The Australian and administered by Galaxy Research, which in December 2017 was acquired by international market research and data analytics group, YouGov. – Wikipedia

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    pat

    1 Apr: CFACT: Judge tosses kids’ lawsuit against Trump climate policies
    By Bonner Cohen, Ph. D.
    Rejecting a claim by Philadelphia-based Clean Air Council and attorneys representing two Pennsylvania school boys that people have a constitutionally guaranteed due process right to a “life-sustaining climate,” a federal Judge has dismissed a bizarre legal case challenging the Trump administration’s climate policies.

    In his Fen. 19 decision, U.S. District Court Judge Paul Diamond said the plaintiffs lacked standing. And in dismissing the case, Clean Air Council v. United States, Judge Diamond granted the request by President Trump, Energy Secretary Rick Perry, former Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Scott Pruitt, and other administration officials…

    Judge Diamond showed little patience with plaintiffs willing to clog up an already overburdened court system with an issue that was best dealt with outside the judicial sphere…READ ON
    https://www.cfact.org/2019/04/01/judge-tosses-kids-lawsuit-against-trump-climate-policies/

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    pat

    31 Mar: NoTricksZone: Fabricating A Warming: NASA Now Altering ‘Unadjusted” Data To Create New, Warmer ‘Unadjusted’ Data
    By P Gosselin
    https://notrickszone.com/2019/03/31/fabricating-a-warming-nasa-now-altering-unadjusted-data-to-create-new-warmer-unadjusted-data/

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    pat

    27 Mar: FinancialPostCanada: Joe Oliver: The climate alarmists are keeping poor people in the dark — literally
    It is impossible to elevate people in dire need to a decent standard of living without inexpensive electricity
    by Joe Oliver
    (Joe Oliver is a former federal minister of natural resources and minister of finance)
    I recently returned from a Petroleum and Energy Summit in Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea (PNG), which put into stark relief the moral imperative of developing fossil fuels, especially for the poorest people in developing countries. By implication, it reinforced the profoundly unethical stand of climate-change alarmists who are working to rid the world of hydrocarbons, irrespective of the harm to economic growth, employment and a decent standard of living for billions of people.
    A mere 13 per cent of Papua New Guineans have access to electricity. The government’s goal is to extend electrification to 70 per cent by 2030, an ambitious precondition to substantially raising GDP per capita above its current $2,400…

    PNG imports heavy fuel oil and diesel for 40 per cent of its energy, but does not access its abundant coal reserves. Yet coal is an important source of inexpensive energy in south-east Asia. Over 2,500 coal plants, with total generating power of around 2,000,000 megawatts (mw), are operating or in development in Asian signatory countries of the Paris Accord. For context, Canada’s 100 largest generating stations have a combined capacity of 100,829 mw.
    PNG is now debating development of its coal resources. It will take into account safety and economic advantages for its citizens. It should not consider global climate consequences because they will be infinitesimal…

    There is no satisfactory explanation for why temperatures have risen, fallen and remained flat during the last century of steadily increasing emissions. Since our grasp of climatology is obviously imperfect, we cannot claim that the science is settled…
    Climate alarmists have long claimed the high moral ground. In fact, they stand in the way of progress and prosperity. They should be ashamed of how they have misrepresented science to advance a flawed agenda and even more for causing harm to the world’s most vulnerable people.
    https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/joe-oliver-the-climate-alarmists-are-keeping-poor-people-in-the-dark

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  • #
    Hanrahan

    Anyone with a nutgrass problem?

    Some time ago in a previous life [prolly 50 yrs ago at ag college] I was told that 2,4-D was effective on nutgrass but looking at application rates no table lists it as effective nor does the table for the chemical itself list nut grass as a target.I know by experience if is effective but it nearly destroyed my new buffalo lawn.

    Doing another search I found a paper from ’44 – ’45 which says it is effective at 0.1% concentration [that's dilute]. The paper also addressed the issue of wether it killed the nuts or just the leaf and it appears it does. One surprising thing is that it has a residual life in the soil which, along with using too strong a mix may have been my problem, so I’m starting another trial.

    Prrecautions will be:
    Do not mow for a week – the torn leaves absorb the chemical. Besides the nut grass has enough leaf to get wet.
    Do not mow for another week.
    Use a fine spray to limit dripping into the soil.
    Any new turf will be green couch which is less susceptible.

    Here’s the paper:
    chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1946-vol-59/78-91%20(HARRISON).pdf
    That’s a funny looking link, hope it works.

    BTW 2,4-D is far cheaper than the new “sedge hammer” being marketed but if might be hard to find.

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    • #
      Bill in Oz

      Known carcinogen
      And a long time breaking down in the soil
      And some of it breakdown metabolites are also dangerous.
      Kids are especially susceptible.
      So not recommended for any grass where kids play

      That is why it is hard to find

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      • #
        Hanrahan

        Is the 2,4-D the carcinogen or the dioxins which were prevalent in agent orange?

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        • #
          Hanrahan

          I have no dog in the fight so have no wish to defend 2,4-D, merely present facts and allow the sceptics who populate this site to form an opinion. I have it in the back of my mind that it got it’s bad name after Vietnam when soldiers handling the stuff got ill. This is a tragedy.

          A couple of things should be remembered though. The handling procedures were primitive due to wartime carelessness and people had the concentrate spilt all over them. Also the stuff was made at max capacity with little regard for dioxins which, I believe, were the biggest problem in ‘Nam.

          Today it is rated as “possibly carcinogenic” which doesn’t worry me at the very low concentrations recommended and there hasn’t been a child in my back yard in living memory.

          The widely used farm chemical known as 2,4-D – a key ingredient in a new herbicide developed by the Dow company – “possibly” causes cancer in humans, a World Health Organisation research unit has said.

          The classification of the weed killer, 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid, was made by the WHO’s International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).

          The IARC said it reviewed the latest scientific literature and decided to classify 2,4-D as “possibly carcinogenic to humans”, a step below the more definitive “probably carcinogenic” category but two steps above the “probably not carcinogenic” category.

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          Another Ian

          H

          IIRC the agent orange problem came via 2,4,5T

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4,5-Trichlorophenoxyacetic_acid

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    • #
      robert rosicka

      Sugar or just fertiliser the bejesus out of the area , the cockys love the stuff in the front yard .
      Sugar supposedly works well , years ago I seen a trial on TV but I forget the science of it .

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      • #
        Hanrahan

        Sugar will not work for nitrogen-loving grasses, as they will be affected by the decrease in soil nutrients. But sugar is a viable alternative to weed killer for low-nitrogen grasses such as clover, clover mixes and alkali grass.

        Which excludes buffalo and couch. Clover is a legume which draws it’s nutrient from the atmosphere.

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      • #
        Hanrahan

        Sugar? Tick up another use for coke.

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    pat

    O/T

    1 Apr: The Federalist: Margot Cleveland: Papadopoulos Hints Conversation That Launched Trump-Russia Probe Was FBI Setup
    These new revelations raise fresh concerns that, with the approval of the FBI, foreign governments were meddling in the 2016 election
    The recently released transcript (LINK) of George Papadopoulos’s congressional testimony reveals a significant fact: Papadopoulos’s introduction to Joseph Mifsud — the source of the “Russia has Hillary’s emails” tip that purportedly prompted the FBI to launch an investigation into the Trump campaign — was arranged mere days after Papadopoulos announced he was joining the Trump campaign…

    On April 26, 2016, Mifsud also shared a tip with Papadopoulos over a breakfast meeting in London: Mifsud told Papadopoulos “that he had just returned from a trip to Moscow where he had met with high-level Russian government officials,” and had learned that “the Russians had obtained ‘dirt’ on candidate Clinton,” namely thousands of Clinton’s emails.
    Papadopoulos would later repeat this conversation to Australian diplomat Alexander Downer over drinks in a London bar in May. In late July, after WikiLeaks published a trove of stolen Democratic National Committee emails, agents at the FBI’s D.C. headquarters supposedly first learned of Papadopoulos’s statement to Downer, although it remains unclear how details of the conversation made it from Downer to the FBI.

    Then, on July 31, 2016, purportedly on the basis of Papadopoulos’s advanced knowledge of Russia’s possession of the stolen emails, Peter Strzok initiated the Crossfire Hurricane federal investigation of the Trump campaign…READ ON
    https://thefederalist.com/2019/04/01/papadopoulos-hints-conversation-launched-trump-russia-probe-fbi-setup/

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    theRealUniverse

    More EU insanity…
    https://www.iceagenow.info/dowse-the-fire/
    Banning fire extinguishers because the are CO2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  • #
    AndyG55

    I wonder how long it would take a “road trip” of say 10 EVs to get from Sydney to Melbourne and back, keeping in a group.

    Imagine the time taken to recharge them at 1 or 2 bays at a charging station. :-)

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    • #
      AndyG55

      Furthermore, does anyone have any idea of the through-put of petrol refills at some of the service stations on long distance routes.

      I know I have stopped once of twice at the twin servos between Sydney and Newcastle, and with 8 or 10 pumps going, there were still queues.

      Think how long it would take, or how many power points you would need, to “fill” as many cars in say 3 hours as that petrol station does.

      EVs are just a NON-VIABLE waste of time and money for Australian distances and conditions.

      Its ok while there are just a tiny few of them, but if the numbers built up, it would become a complete nightmare.

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      • #
        Dave

        Yes Andy, you bring up a good point.

        A big Service Station between Brisbane & Sunshine Coast is huge. Both North & South Lanes.

        They have I think 6 rows of 3 pumps (double sided) so 36 bowsers. Most get through in a couple minutes, fill, pay leave!
        Even then you sometimes encounter huge line ups waiting (not that long) but very busy.
        Especially long weekends & School Holidays?

        How big would these places have to be if Charging took even ONE HOUR?
        They’d take up Hectares and have to have it’s own substation providing electricity?

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        • #
          AndyG55

          Would probably needs its own motel, as well.

          Rooms at exorbitant rates, of course. :-)

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        • #
          Hanrahan

          I ran a servo in the ’60s. In those days there was a servo on every other corner. If EVs become ubiquitous we will return to that. Are the owners of these sites going to give free electricity? More likely they will make a profitable margin on the power and milk you for coffee, magazines etc in the lounge.

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      • #
        robert rosicka

        I have a cunning Baldrick plan , turn all city roads into one lane put charging stations every twenty feet along the other lanes .

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      • #
        GD

        to “fill” as many cars in say 3 hours as that petrol station does

        Also, a car can fill its petrol tank far more quickly than a battery can recharge.

        The car doesn’t actually fill its petrol tank, the driver does. But you get my drift. The queues would be endless.

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    • #
      robert rosicka

      Nailed it here Andy , they have gloated about single vehicles going here or there and doing ok but put a realistic number together and see what happens .

      70

      • #
        AndyG55

        A quick BOE calc at 4 minutes per car, 10 pumps 3 hours = 450 cars.

        Now, how many charge points would you need to “fill” 450 EVs in 3 hours?

        And what sort of electrical substation would you need, bearing in mind that its in between major urban centres.?

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        • #
          Hanrahan

          Andy, I have been trying to make that point for years.

          To your second point there are two “halfway houses” I know of with a lot of KMs each side of them, Lynd Junction and Ballyando Crossing, both are self sufficient for power. The generator at the Lynd tripped when they got busy when I was topping up. Do ya reckon a Tesla wold be welcome?

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  • #
    pat

    VIDEO: 31 Mar: CBS New York: New York State Budget: Congestion Pricing Coming To Manhattan
    Sources: Drivers In Cars Will Pay Around $11.50 And Truck Drivers Will Pay About $25; Possible Discounts For Some Being Worked Out
    Motorists entering Midtown Manhattan below 60th Street will be charged a toll, which is anticipated to raise more than $1 billion a year for the city’s ailing public transit system. A panel of experts will set the surcharges by the end of 2020, but sources told CBS2 drivers in cars will pay around $11.50 and truck drivers around $25…

    MORE: Gov. Cuomo Proud Of State Budget, Calling It “Probably The Strongest Progressive Statement That We’ve Made” (LINK)…
    https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2019/03/31/nys-budget-deal-passes-congestion-pricing/

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    Crakar24

    Well the stupid now burns brighter than magnesium in water unless this is a very good April fools day joke

    http://www.iceagenow.info

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    robert rosicka

    Seems as though the CO2 produced making Tesla batteries makes a mockery of using them at all if you want to save the planet .

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/06/20/tesla-car-battery-production-releases-as-much-co2-as-8-years-of-gasoline-driving/

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  • #
    Gautam Kalghatgi

    Anyone interested in a peer-reviewed paper (Applied Energy, vol 225, 2018) discussing the barriers to fast and unlimited growth of battery electric vehicles can email me at kalghatgig@gmail.com. I can send a copy

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  • #
    observa

    They’re simply fighting physics

    “Executive Summary
    A movement has been growing for decades to replace hydrocarbons, which collectively supply 84% of the world’s energy. It began with the fear that we were running out of oil. That fear has since migrated to the belief that, because of climate change and other environmental concerns, society can no longer tolerate burning oil, natural gas, and coal—all of which have turned out to be abundant.
    So far, wind, solar, and batteries—the favored alternatives to hydrocarbons—provide about 2% of the world’s energy and 3% of America’s. Nonetheless, a bold new claim has gained popularity: that we’re on the cusp of a tech-driven energy revolution that not only can, but inevitably will, rapidly replace all hydrocarbons.
    This “new energy economy” rests on the belief—a centerpiece of the Green New Deal and other similar proposals both here and in Europe—that the technologies of wind and solar power and battery storage are undergoing the kind of disruption experienced in computing and communications, dramatically lowering costs and increasing efficiency. But this core analogy glosses over profound differences, grounded in physics, between systems that produce energy and those that produce information.
    In the world of people, cars, planes, and factories, increases in consumption, speed, or carrying capacity cause hardware to expand, not shrink. The energy needed to move a ton of people, heat a ton of steel or silicon, or grow a ton of food is determined by properties of nature whose boundaries are set by laws of gravity, inertia, friction, mass, and thermodynamics—not clever software.
    This paper highlights the physics of energy to illustrate why there is no possibility that the world is undergoing—or can undergo—a near-term transition to a “new energy economy.”
    Among the reasons:
    Scientists have yet to discover, and entrepreneurs have yet to invent, anything as remarkable as hydrocarbons in terms of the combination of low-cost, high-energy density, stability, safety, and portability. In practical terms, this means that spending $1 million on utility-scale wind turbines, or solar panels will each, over 30 years of operation, produce about 50 million kilowatt-hours (kWh)—while an equivalent $1 million spent on a shale rig produces enough natural gas over 30 years to generate over 300 million kWh.
    Solar technologies have improved greatly and will continue to become cheaper and more efficient. But the era of 10-fold gains is over. The physics boundary for silicon photovoltaic (PV) cells, the Shockley-Queisser Limit, is a maximum conversion of 34% of photons into electrons; the best commercial PV technology today exceeds 26%.
    Wind power technology has also improved greatly, but here, too, no 10-fold gains are left. The physics boundary for a wind turbine, the Betz Limit, is a maximum capture of 60% of kinetic energy in moving air; commercial turbines today exceed 40%.
    The annual output of Tesla’s Gigafactory, the world’s largest battery factory, could store three minutes’ worth of annual U.S. electricity demand. It would require 1,000 years of production to make enough batteries for two days’ worth of U.S. electricity demand. Meanwhile, 50–100 pounds of materials are mined, moved, and processed for every pound of battery produced.”

    …and not only that they want to put those same batteries in every one of our vehicles and replace them all as they wear out in order to use said power. Welcome to the new Prometheans.

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    Ve2

    Currently 499 Australians out of 500 choose anything but an EV:

    And I will bet that most of the ones who do drive EV’s are forced to do so because it is government or company policy and supplied.

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    Brod Northwood

    One big question no one is addressing is the EMF pollution (that is bad for human biology) electric cars emit. A ride in an electric train with Ta rifield meter showed alarming rates of magnetic field radiation.

    10