JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Weekend Unthreaded

Castle Rock, SW WA

Rainbow over Castle Rock, Oct 2017.

We had a few days away last week in Geographe Bay, SW WA thanks to the kindness of a supporter. Miles of quiet beaches for those who don’t like crowds. :-)

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276 comments to Weekend Unthreaded

  • #
    Sceptical Sam

    In case you missed it:

    “Michael Mann Crowdfunds Worst Children’s Book Ever.”

    Another unmannly tantrum because the grown-ups have woken up.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/10/13/delingpole-michael-mann-crowdfunds-worst-childrens-book-ever/

    And who has ever heard of Megan Herbert?

    The latest partner in the Kool-aid franchise. The children always bear the brunt of the abuse. Why?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

    How many children will Herbert help brainwash?

    152

    • #
      Dave in the States

      I live near an elementary school. The other day I was driving around the block and saw a bunch of kids marching in protest march fashion in front of the school, lead by, I assume their teacher, carrying save the planet banners, and LGBT rainbow banners (these kids were about ten years old!). Very disturbing to see this going on among innocent children.

      150

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        There is a very stark warning for those who are put rubbish in Christian kids’ heads:

        “If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.”
        ( Matt 18:6 )

        Fightin’ words….

        61

    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Using children has been going on for a long time. Anyone who is serious about anything goes after the children. If you want to change the society just be patient and indoctrinate the children and when they become adults they’re yours.

      I once heard a Catholic priest say that if you teach the child in the way he should go sufficiently well, he will not depart from that way for the rest of his life. And he was right.

      The unfortunate thing is that we should have been indoctrinating our children about the right things, about democracy and freedom, the benefits of capitalism and free markets. But we stopped teaching them the good things about their country and started teaching them only the bad. The result is entirely predictable but we weren’t looking until it was too late.

      The big difference now is that they think they can be more out in the open instead of being subtle about it.

      120

      • #
        TdeF

        Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man.

        Disputed Jesuit maxim widely attributed to Ignatius Loyola; according to Three Myths, by A. Beichman et al. (1981), p. 48, this saying was “attributed to him (perhaps mischievously) by Voltaire.

        80

  • #

    Global warming is about to hit us. Oh, wait. That’s Summer.

    171

  • #
    Annie

    What a gorgeous photo Jo! It is a beautiful part of the country, we loved it when we visited.
    I hope you are feeling refreshed.

    120

    • #
      robert rosicka

      Sandgropers are spoilt imo ,some magnificent coastal scenery all over that state but the south is amazing .

      40

    • #
      Peter C

      I learnt once that the rainbow is a symbol of hope, after the great flood.

      60

    • #
      Bruce J

      Just saw the photo and now a delicate green with envy. A great reminder of the holidays spent at Dunsborough and Busselton before so many people recognised the beauty of the area.

      30

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      I don’t believe that the rainbow was over Castle Rock. It only appears to be over Castle Rock in a photograph, due to refraction occuring somewhere between the photographer, and the horizion, that just happens to include Castle Rock.

      Get a grip, people. This is a science blog, and not some extension of the ABC.

      21

  • #
    Dennis

    What is that saying? At the end of every rainbow there is a bag of coal?

    91

  • #
    toorightmate

    Castle Rock will disappear next year.
    Rising sea level you know.
    Tim told me so, and Al, and every other warmist idiot I have come across.
    I am very, very, very old and Pinchgut looks the same as did 85 years ago. Perhaps it is rising at the same rate as the sea level is rising?

    171

    • #
      William

      Water levels have risen some sixteen centimetres in the last 100 years – hardly noticeable in the grand scheme of things. And that is why Abbott was able to correctly state that photos of Manly beach show no change over the last century.

      131

      • #
        robert rosicka

        Where has the water risen that much I wonder ? Not in Sydney and not in Hobart that’s for sure .

        111

        • #
          William

          That is data from the Fort Denison tidal gauge – while it shows a greater increase in water level than that, the site is also subsiding. Bob Carter wrote about it a few years ago.

          91

          • #
            robert rosicka

            My bad , I’m sure there was a thread on WUWT last week about SLR and it included fort Denison but rember now it was thirty years they were talking about .

            51

          • #
            AndyG55

            Sydney tide gauge shows around 0.65mm/year.

            SCARY !!

            And as William alludes to, surveys done between 2005 and 2010 (iirc) have shown it is subsiding by about 0.2mm/year.

            That makes the actual SL change at Fort Denison about 0.45mm/year.

            61

          • #
            William

            I just recalled an episode of Gilligan’s Island when they panicked as the measuring stick the Professor was using to gauge water levels indicated the island was sinking rapidly. Later in the show it emerged that Gilligan was using the stick to set his lobster trap and had been putting it further out and into deeper water to catch bigger lobsters.

            20

        • #
          Graeme#4

          Actually it’s been steadily rising in Fremantle at a rate of 1.3mm/year, but don’t know how much of that is due to site sinkage. Fremantle is one of Australia’s earliest recording sites.

          40

      • #
        Roger

        In both France and England there are inland towns which were once viable ports, that is until falling sea levels in the Little Ice Age left them disconnectd from the sea. Recent small sea level rise since the end of the LIA has yet to reconnect them to the sea.

        Tide gauge data shows that there has been no change in the trend of sea level rise since the end of the LIA – that rather destroys any argument that AGW is accelerating sea level rise.

        Looked at from the other direction the constancy of the trend can be argued to prove that AGW does not exist – because the trend is the same as in the 1880s.

        111

      • #
        Rereke Whakaaro

        Sixteen centimetres is the length of my extended hand. It is half the length of my forearm. It is less than the depth of the water I put in the sink, when I wash the dishes.

        We need more uni students to get part-time jobs working in restaurant kitchens. If we did that, and showed them the numbers, the problem of climate change would disappear.

        60

      • #
        clive hoskin

        I seem to recall that Cockatoo island is still visible in the middle of Sydney Harbor?At least it was the last time(2 years ago)I was there.

        10

  • #
    Graeme #4

    When working overseas, folks used to ask what Perth was like. My response was ” Meditteranean without the crowds”.

    80

  • #
    Graeme #4

    Tesla has just sacked 400 staff from their 33,000 workforce. And they are still building the latest cars by hand…

    120

    • #
      toorightmate

      It is hard to concentrate on cars (that wont sell) and big batteries at the same time.
      Elon might be the first man on mars. The business is tough without Oh Bummer giving him BILLIONS to prop up his lavish lifestyle.

      181

      • #
        James

        How about a subsidy mine to send him on a one way trip to Mars! Then no more subsidies after that.

        61

      • #
        James

        How about a subsidy to send him on a one way trip to Mars! Then no more subsidies after that.

        11

      • #
        clive hoskin

        Why do yo think he has been hanging around here(like a bad smell)He’s probably sizing us up for a”Fleecing”And”Weatherdill”is glad to accommodate him.

        40

  • #
    Mark M

    New IPCC report to include science of attributing extreme events to climate change.

    http://wwf.panda.org/?uNewsID=310810

    75

    • #
      Our Poor Country

      Mark M, you cannot trust any report from the disgraced IPPC. It’s just left wing propaganda clap-trap. (Just ask Viv or Larry)
      You’d be much better off to study JoNova a little more closely to get a proper understanding of how this left wing scam makes us all the poorer.

      121

    • #
      Mark M

      Via the conversation:
      https://theconversation.com/satellites-are-giving-us-a-commanding-view-of-earths-carbon-cycle-85539

      Five papers published in Science today provide data from NASA’s Orbiting Carbon Observatory-2 (OCO-2) mission.

      Similarly, we can now examine the processes behind the extraordinary greening of the Earth over recent decades as CO₂ levels have climbed.

      Up to 50% of vegetated land is now greener than it was 30 years ago.

      The increasing human-driven CO2 fertilization effect on vegetation was estimated to be the dominant driver.
      . . .
      If global warming causes hurricanes and greening of the planet simultaneously, how do you know when climate is fixed?

      42

    • #
      Geoffrey Williams

      WWF-clearly a bunch of alarmists.
      Mark, I don’t believe a word they say . .
      Regards GeoffW

      30

  • #
    William

    Well, an interesting week commenting on the Fairfax website – none could counter any of Abbott’s facts from his London speech although some tried, one Ross of Malibar who, on numerous occasions stated that the Lancet report did not prove anything as the countries in the report had long brutal winters and short hot periods. He even laughed about schooling the Abbottistas on this. I tried four times to correct him by listing the countries in the report: Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Taiwan, Thailand, UK, and USA as well as the conclusions but the moderators did not allow a single one of these posts through. Consequently, he kept on repeating his claim, including one time when he thought he was getting one over me. It was very frustrating, watching someone make a goose of themselves while all the time the collective thought he was on a winner.

    My other favourite is one person who continually refers to the Kidston pumped storage hydro project as though it is up and running. He uses it as proof that using excess solar to pump water for hydro generation works. I have pointed out on a number of occasions that the project has only just completed a feasibility study and is only at the due diligence stage. There is no proof that it will be effective, and I rather doubt it will be useful on a sunless day. But still he trots it out and the collective cheer him on for winning the point.

    Anyway, for anyone wanting to debate the Fairfax alarmist collective, that is what you have to deal with! And by the way, you will not find a group of people more anti goal and gas. They are the types who will thoroughly agree that base power is indeed a dinosaur.

    321

    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      They are the types who will thoroughly agree that base power is indeed a dinosaur

      As is the Fairfax press.

      180

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        I think every person will agree base load is for dinosaurs…including the greenists who live in huge mansions and fly everywhere…..except for the problem that heating, fuel manufacturing and life in general can stop when you stop baseload power….

        Where do they find these people?

        4 legs good, 2 legs bad….baaaaaa

        30

        • #
          Annie

          No legs, one leg, three legs, four, six, eight, centipede, miilipede all good. Two legs, tut tut tut…just not acceptable.

          10

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Found calculations on pumped storage:

        https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/11/pump-up-the-storage/

        “It is clear enough that pumped storage exists and works quite well in certain locations. But demonstration does not imply scalability, and scaling the existing installations did not deliver a radically different answer (in fact, demanding more installations). The enormous scale I calculate means simple factors of two or even ten here and there do not change the overall flavor of the conclusion.

        Let’s be clear that I am not making any claim that large scale storage at the level we need is impossible. But it’s far more daunting than almost anyone realizes. It’s not a matter of “just” building up when the time comes. We could easily find ourselves ill-prepared and suffering insufficient energy supplies, intermittency, and a long, slow economic slide because we collectively did not anticipate the scale of the challenges ahead.”

        I have also emailed the Snowy 2 people asking them to provide accurate figures on daily power production, what happenes during droughts etc.

        Should be interesting.

        40

    • #
      Griffo

      I admire your diligence in even trying to engage with these idiots,but I think it would be a waste of time. What about the uber nutter , the one with the red bandanna, Fitzsimons in Sunday Fauxfax attempting to put down Ian Plimer sad,sad sad

      181

      • #
        KinkyKeith

        Thankfully I missed the Plimer put down but am reminded of what sort of person we are dealing with when I go into a bookshop occasionally.

        I’m still trying to work out what sort of person it is that feels comfortable, even entitled, to stand on the piled bodies of decent people to make a few quid.

        KK

        50

    • #
      FarmerDoug2

      William.
      Please keep trying.
      Doug

      70

    • #
      greggg

      Sometimes I wonder if some of the posts are from the moderators. Most posts that provide evidence to the contrary are deleted by mods. Most of the MSM is guilty. It’s not just climate, it’s anything that goes against the official narrative.

      20

  • #

    A couple of weeks back I asked a generic question as to why the Summer and Winter Load Curves had different shapes, and what you may think it is which constituted that difference.

    Now that power consumption is (slowly) beginning to change to reflect Summer consumption, I explain at my most recent Base Load Post just why there is such a difference, and why coal fired plants across the Country are shutting down their Units one by one for a few days at a time, taking anything up to 5000/6000MW out of the grid system.

    It all comes down to HVAC, (Heating Ventilation and Air Conditioning) in those tall structures in ALL our cities across the Country.

    I have the data and analysis and an explanation of HVAC at this weeks Post at the following link.

    Australian Base Load Electrical Power – Week Ending 14th October 2017

    Tony.

    223

  • #
    David Maddison

    Musk’s Hypertube completely debunked.

    It’s practically impossible.

    https://youtu.be/QXF2qcu-tFw

    The idea of running a train in an evacuated tube is not new, by the way.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain

    112

    • #
      David Maddison

      I meant to post this link. The link above is the next video in the playlist but watch this one first.

      https://youtu.be/RNFesa01llk

      83

      • #
        Peter C

        Thanks David,

        I might have taken the proposal seriously until I saw that video. I will certainly never travel on a Hype-r-loop, even if they can build it.

        60

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      David Maddison.

      Yes, I remember the Robert Salter articles. They caused some discussion.

      51

    • #
      William

      Thanks David, Not only informative and thoroughly debunking, but very easy to watch and follow.

      71

    • #
    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Dave Maddison:

      I remember the Robert Salter version. The train ran inside a tube which itself sat in water in a larger tube. In fact there were 2 tubes inside that larger one which could be interconncted at points for safety reasons. The water was enough to allow the tube to float as the train passed and allowed for minor distortion of the inner (train carrying) tube. The idea was taken from early railway consruction across a swamp in the UK where the smoothest travel was achieved.
      The tmain ube itself was to be bored through solid rock so the track followed a straight line underground to the destination. That cutting bypassing the Earth’s surface curve meant that the track dipped the start (and rose at the end) giving gravitational acceleration at the start and deceleration at the end.
      Speed from memory was much slower, around 300 mph maximum and it was intended for intercity travel e.g. NY to Chicago..

      70

    • #
      Roger

      As a child I used to love watching the vaccum tube systems in department stores – when you bought something, your money with a note of the purchase was put into a little container and ‘vacuumed’ off down the tube to the accounts department who would then send it back to the counter the same way with your change and receipt………..

      100

  • #
    Edwina

    While looking at daily readings for SE QLD I scrolled right down to see 6 temporary AWS readings. They are places where readings are taken on a short term basis and then moved on to another set of locations. Mobile weather stations. What are they for?

    82

  • #
    el gordo

    ‘Germans were fooled and deceived by politicians and activists into thinking that the transition to renewable energies would not cost much, reduce pollutants, create a clean environment, improve the climate and create many jobs.

    ‘None of these have come true.

    ‘Electricity prices have skyrocketed, the landscape is being industrialized and Germany has not reduced its greenhouse gases in more than 7 years. Moreover the climate is still the same. Now Germany’s industrial base is eroding.’

    P Gosselin (Notrickszone)

    191

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      You can fool some of the people some of the time.
      You can fool some of the people all of the time.
      You can fool all of the people some of the time.
      But you cannot fool all of the people all of the time.

      As the “renewables experiment” moves from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and country to country, and in so doing, repeatedly fails to have any noticeable affect on ambient household temperatures, people are starting to realise that the only tangible manifestation comes in the form of less service for higher energy prices, with their flow on effect.

      It is the slow motion train wreck of western civilisation, that we are observing.

      111

  • #
    David Maddison

    Short article about Tesla and subsidies.

    https://amp.detroitnews.com/amp/105279744

    83

  • #
    el gordo

    This is a polynya in Antarctic waters and warmist Latif has confirmed it has nothing to do with AGW.

    https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn.net/newman/gfx/news/hires/2017/antarcticare.jpg

    The hole in the ice is the size of the Netherlands and was last reported in the vicinity during the mid 1970s great climate shift. This is obviously just a coincidence.

    The principle behind the anomaly is that warmer and saltier water sits under fresh water ice until the pressure from below is impossible to contain. It should hang around for a couple of years, eventually the warm water dissipates and the area is iced over once again.

    50

  • #
    David Maddison

    QUESTION:

    This summer, how likely is it that there will be an extremely major grid failure such as we see, for example, most of Victoriastan or NSW have no power for many hours.

    What are the best and worst possible scenarios?

    72

    • #

      Apart from SA, for what my opinion is worth, I doubt there will be a major grid failure on the eastern seaboard.
      BOM is hedging its bets, pointing to a two week pause in cooling, not exactly a climate change event, in ENSO sea surface temperature.
      http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/outlook/

      ‘While the tropical Pacific has been cooling since mid-winter, this trend has reversed over the last fortnight as sea surface temperature anomalies have risen. However this recent warming may be only temporary, with a majority of surveyed climate models still suggesting La Niña thresholds may be reached by the end of the year. But only three models suggest these thresholds will be maintained for long enough to be considered a La Niña event.’

      So no El Nino or Super El Nino forcast.
      This means our Eastern seaboard, Indian ocean dipole willing, will be cool and rainy.
      No doubt all the Chinese and Japanese Airconditioner companies and manufacturers already have calculated our climate for Summer and worked out how many units to export to OZ.
      They clean up our BOM data and put it into learning neural networks.

      The government has reserve powers to cut power consumption.
      They can and will ask major users, such as aluminium producers and smelters to cut use.
      They can limit the amount of power used in off peak water heaters.
      Perish the thought, they may even turn off the lights in government offices and stop using airconditioners themselves.
      When the generators were down during the Wran brown outs in NSW, he comissioned extra gas turbines at huge cost to keep the lights on.
      The brown outs and the petrol tanker strikes were damaging to the economy and crippling politically.
      It was this experience that made politicians unwilling to continue running power stations so they privatised them.
      However Wran brought in essential services legislation to prohibit strikes in vital services.
      The RET and market control has been the final knives in the heart of stable power generation.
      So now politicians institutionalise instability, a wound to the citizen.
      Any fluctuations in power to the NBN will mean much of our communications will fail.
      Cabinet ministers now can be held personally accountable if they knew, or should have known, the consequences of their actions, when these cause economic havoc.
      The present case before the courts refers to the live cattle trade and its sudden ban.
      Mindful of this I think we will be OK.
      However industry will sense the wind and quietly fold their tents to slink away at night.
      No jobs will be lost, they will just go somewhere else, on line or overseas.
      Our children will become a community of bespoke potters and coopers.
      We can’t even refine petrol, were a shooting war start in South East Asia we won’t be getting petrol from Singapore.
      Hope and Pray this will not be one outcome.
      We don’t even have the sense to reserve strategic assets such as coal and LNG.
      With the present mindset,all that will be left is mining, agriculture, social services and medicine.
      There won’t be much use building infrastructure if there is no power to run it or jobs at the end of it.
      Our children will, by and large, work in hospitality and tourism as interesting jobs go overseas, while the rest is automated.

      60

  • #
    Will Janoschka

    TonyfromOz October 15, 2017 at 2:50 pm · Reply

    A couple of weeks back I asked a generic question as to why the Summer and Winter Load Curves had different shapes, and what you may think it is which constituted that difference.

    Yes yes! Baseload at any day or time-of-day is never ‘statistical’ as the goof-offs claim but instead ‘deterministic’ as you observe.
    The baseload generation need have excess capacity as rolling reserve to handle the statistical 3 sigma or at least the RMS of such thermal noise riding upon some deterministic average. that slowly adjusts to ‘now’.
    Your governmental instance\subsidy of fictitious sporadic non renewable RENEWABLES has thrown the monkey wrench\sand\rocks into any concept of reliable power generation. This is not simply governmental incompetence, but instead deliberate criminal intent by banksters to subjugate all serfs\peons\honest folk! Where is my pitchfork?

    “What but about statistical analysis of demand don’t they understand?”

    Perhaps the big Elephant under the tent!! Electrical power demand is perhaps the most deterministic of anything yet discovered. Baseload need only cover your statistical ‘noise’ peaks to be 97%-99% reliable! It is only the SCAM of ‘inverted transient renew-ables’ that drive all “outages”!!

    “Baseload as a concept being a fantasy is just propaganda driving argument.”

    Could you expand on that statement, so that it makes any sense? :-)

    Will Janoschka
    October 14, 2017 at 11:25 am · Reply
    “I have noticed that all refrigerators have a little light in them, which only comes on when you open the door.”

    That is because of the refigerator gauge boson. His name is Westing. Such is similar to Maxwell’s Demon called Photon, He decides if Thermal EMR is to be emitted, absorbed, transmitted, reflected, or the remaing nothing,so that all probilities sum to unity! QED (quantumelectrodynamics) in a nutshell.
    If you catch Westing doing his thing; (the state of the light\lamp\LED), he asks “isn’t this a Westinghouse?” When you agree, he says “I’m just westing!” :-)

    To very reclusive turnedoutnice\AlecM\mydogsgotnose.
    Perhaps in the next weekend-undrivel; we can have some polite or intense interaction without identifying background of any other! I value your technical views but refuse to accept\promote some of them!
    All the best!-will-

    63

    • #
      turnedoutnice

      On climateetc I have put out my final analysis. I have introduced new physics which is that because the IR emitter density of states is filled at the Earth’s surface (near black body for all fully self-absorbed atmospheric GHG frequencies), also full for the local atmosphere in the same frequencies, Earth’s IR surface disappears. IR energy eventually goes to space where those GHG bands cease to be fully self absorbed.

      This is defined by when the GHGs in projection to the Earth form a space filling plane, which defines altitude/OLR effective source temperature in those bands. For partially self-absorbed GHG bands at the surface, it occurs at lower altitudes. This explains the maximum ~2.6 km altitude of low level, non-convective clouds – the energy rushes to space as IR because low temperature, low humidity reduces self-absorption in the 16-23 IR micron bands.

      So, about 60% of surface S-B level IR does not exist; surface radiant exitance seen by a pyrgeometer is actually from self or partial self-absorbed GHG molecules in the atmosphere near the surface, as is, of course, ‘LWIR’ in the opposite direction. Neither radiant exitance is a real energy flux: At equilibrium they are equal and opposite so no possible GHG IR heating of the surface, nor positive feedback.

      Surface temperature is controlled by the partially self-absorbed 16-23 micron water vapour bands. As the surface warms by, say CO2 heating from OLR blocking or tsi increase, local humidity increases, as does 16-23 micron self-absorption. That shifts energy loss to more latent heat, making cloud area and ascent velocity rise. This plus longer term negative feedbacks ensures near zero warming from higher [CO2].

      I have also discovered that the forward lobe of rain drops is, because it is not a plane wave, back reflected (500 mm diameter) at ~30,000 times the plane wave leve). This explains the rainbow, also why rain clouds, particularly convective, have high albedos, lower SW light transmission. Paper nearly ready; this process explains Milankovitch amplification at the end of ice ages, also perhaps the 30% larger eyes of Neanderthal man over Homo Sapiens.

      So, I have developed a highly plausible theory explaining the GHE, really about 15 K. Cess made a bad mistake, backed up by a fraudulent GISS 2d modelling paper, admitted 25 years later by Hansen to an AIP reporter as ‘a fudge’. Subject to constant tsi, the GHE remains unchanged as [CO2] varies, explaining the incredible stability of Earth’s climate (±3 K over the past million years).

      By the way, the climate alchemists got it very wrong when they claimed, based on Goody and Yung’s bidirectional photon diffusion physics, which actually requires a vacuum gap – they missed this in the fine detail of Planck 1913. A radiant exitance measured by pyrgeometer is not a real energy flux. LWIR cannot transfer IR energy to the Earth’s surface, warmed solely by 94% of ToA tsi and variation of 16-23 micron GHG blanking.

      34

      • #
        turnedoutnice

        Correction: as 16-23 micron self=absorption increases, there is less surface IR because the atmospheric window is reduced. This means higher surface temperature, higher humidity. This causes cloud area and albedo to increase, offsetting the CO2 warming; strong negative feedback.

        The details need to be worked out but the overall thermodynamics are clear. The radiation entropy production rate is kept constant, as is surface temperature, at constant tsi.

        34

        • #
          Will Janoschka

          I looked for your post at Dr. Curry’s blog, could not find it.

          “A radiant exitance measured by pyrgeometer is not a real energy flux. LWIR cannot transfer IR energy to the Earth’s surface,”

          No spontaneous thermal flux in a direction of higher radiance (temperature) ever! If one examines how a pyrgeometer is built and operates via flux transfer in the 5-8 micron water vapor aborbsion band; one will notice the outward measured flux is less to Earth’s atmosphere than it would be to even lower radiance space. This lowering of spontaneous flux is indicated by the necessary parentheses in the Stefan-Boltzmann equation containing two temperature functions. When the parenthesis evaluate to zero all spontaneous thermal EMR flux ceases (zero potential difference)! This complies with all 22 of J.Maxwell’s equations, G.Kirchhoff’s Laws, and the R.Clausius 2nd law concerning spontaneous anything.

          “This causes cloud area and albedo to increase, offsetting the CO2 warming; strong negative feedback.”

          There has been no thermal effect from increasing atmospheric CO2 levels above 180ppmv where 15 micron optical depth at sea level pressure is already less than two meters. The measurable spectral radiance of surface and atmosphere is the same at 15 microns.

          “The details need to be worked out but the overall thermodynamics are clear. The radiation entropy production rate is kept constant, as is surface temperature, at constant tsi.”

          Spontaneous EMR is not within the field of thermodynamics at all! Only if EMR flux is converted back to sensible heat does such enter the realm of thermodynamics! I look forward to your critique of my analysis and measurement!
          All the best!-will-

          13

          • #
            turnedoutnice

            Week in Review, top blog.

            23

            • #
              Will Janoschka

              turnedoutnice October 15, 2017 at 7:45 pm
              “On climateetc I have put out my final analysis.”

              turnedoutnice October 16, 2017 at 1:45 pm
              “Week in Review, top blog.”

              Dr. Curry’s latest WiRis Oct 7,2017 Nothing there!
              At climateetc on April 19,2015 You were still lambasting the Repugnican senators for calling your Atmosphericic CO2 gross error, “the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on humanity”! What say you now?
              All the best!-will-

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            turnedoutnice

            Am I being censored/ Stephen Mosher made an apparently angry post.

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              Will Janoschka

              “Am I being censored/ Stephen Mosher made an apparently angry post.”

              Mosh-pit may (I hope) be censored everywhere.

              I cannot speak for our hostess Joanne, but I have found that this site only correctly snips the part of a post in violation of AU law. If a post is missing Email to the moderators above right. :-)

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              Will Janoschka

              It appears you were posting @ Dr.Curry blog as:
              Alexander Davidson October 15, 2017 at 8:13 am
              Is that correct!? Who knew?

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              Will Janoschka

              “Proof of the real control of climate, mainly by 16-23 micron water vapour self-absorption variation with, mainly, humidity, is the ~2.6 km maximum height of low level clouds. Deeper clouds are convective.”

              You are still accepting the meteorological BS about water vapor. Clouds are airborne water “condensate” not WV which is visibly transparent.
              This massive airborne “WATER” is continually absorbing insolation flux (daytime) into “latent heat of evaporation” as WV and continually powering EMR exitance to space (night-time) from 0.9 microns to 200 microns as that same airborne WV partially ‘condenses’ back to ‘water intermediate phase colloid’ (cloud), needing absolutely no change in temperature.
              60% of insolation flux never reaches the solid\liquid surface of planet Earth. Does that help understanding this atmosphere?
              I need another beer!! :-)

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            Will Janoschka

            So Alexander Davidson Oct 15, 2017 at 8:13 am
            Would you please comment here on:

            AndyG55 October 15, 2017
            And one second spot temperatures!
            Will Janoschka Oct 16, 2017 at 11:04
            With a diurnal swing of 24kelvins @300Kelvin; what is the RMS thermal noise in a bandwidth 43,200 times higher? How about 3 sigma? Will the higher excursions from the mean be greater than the lower? :-)

            All the best!-will-

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              AndyG55

              “Will the higher excursions from the mean be greater than the lower?”

              If the low excursions are deliberately blocked.

              Only the greater will be allowed to make “noise”.

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                Will Janoschka

                “If the low excursions are deliberately blocked.
                Only the greater will be allowed to make “noise”.”

                Indeed! with a mean displaced from zero; only the outliers are measurable. The inliers are only munching grass! EXAMPLE:
                Two volt battery connected to 1 ohm resistor 1/2 the time. Average voltage is one Volt, while average current is one Ampere. Yet the average power is two Watts. The difference comes from the subtle RMS power concept! :-)

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        Will Janoschka

        Perhaps here is an example of the deliberate intentional confusion sewn by Climate Clowns
        “The emissivity of a surface may be defined as the ratio of the radiance from the surface to that from a black body viewed under identical optical and geometrical conditions and at the same temperature.”

        What intentional misdirection because of your attempt to equate\conflate EMR flux (scalar power transfer) W/m² with ‘radiance’ (vector E-field magnitude) W/(m² x steradians). Temperature is but a measurement of the sensible heat accumulated some defined mass; never a property of that mass. Emissivity of a ‘surface’ relates to the roughness\polish of that same mass surface, never its ‘measurement of temperature’! Earth’s compressible fluid atmosphere has no surface to be ‘emissive’. Truly the greatest scam ever perpetrated upon humanity. :-(
        On woha are we!-will-

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          Will Janoschka

          “Truly the greatest scam ever perpetrated upon humanity.”

          Apologies for an opinion rather than measurement!
          Please preface that by: This may be inadvertent BS from ignorant academics; but appears deliberate for financial gain, if so this is:

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    peter

    How do I post on this site? Nothing is coming up.

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      peter

      Is someone deleting my posts?

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        Peter C

        We can see them (your posts) Not deleted.

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        AndyG55

        Someone ought to delete them.

        They are propaganda pap.

        But you not an alarmist site, so you will be allowed to continue to post, even if it is arrant nonsense.

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        Rereke Whakaaro

        Is someone deleting my posts?

        No, but you do need to pass an IQ test.

        Until you pass such a test, you cannot contribute posts to this blog.

        You can, however comment on the current post, if you wish, but you do so at your own peril.

        We frequently have outbreaks of Physics and Mathematics, sometime exacerbated by Chemistry, Climatology, Psychology, and Veterinary Science (although we are not sure how that last came to be). If you know what those words mean, and how the subjects interrelate, and are mutually dependent, then you might just survive, if you are lucky.

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          Will Janoschka

          “and Veterinary Science (although we are not sure how that last came to be)”
          Such is important for discussing Rhinoceros shat! If left in the Sun to dry; becomes impervious to tungsten-carbide tools! :-)

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    pat

    so long as the unholy alliance between NGOs like Greenpeace and the CAGW mob continues, we’ll have zero MSM outrage over stunts like this.

    AP even exploits it to shill for “renewables”; calls it a “stunt”:

    12 Oct: ABC America: AP: Greenpeace activists light fireworks at French nuclear plant (Cattenom)
    Eight environmental have broken into a French nuclear power station and set off fireworks to urge better protection for nuclear waste and protest France’s dependence on atomic energy.

    Utilite EDF insisted that the stunt Thursday by Greenpeace had no impact on safety at the plant in Cattenom in eastern France. The company said the activists were detained eight minutes after entering the site, and threatened legal action…

    French President Emmanuel Macron’s government has pledged to expand renewable energy and reduce its dependence on aging nuclear plants, the source of most of France’s electricity.
    http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/greenpeace-activists-light-fireworks-french-nuclear-plant-50437782

    12 Oct: TheLocalFrance: AFP: Greenpeace activists set off fireworks at nuclear plant in France
    EDF tweeted: “Greenpeace activists on site. Stopped by police. No access to the nuclear area. No impact on the safety of installations.”

    Greenpeace said the fireworks were set off at the foot of a spent fuel pool (SFP) — where nuclear plants store highly radioactive fuel rods that are removed from reactors after their use.
    Roger Spautz, a Greenpeace official in Luxembourg, said that at around 5:30 am (0330 GMT), about 15 activists entered the site and crossed two security barriers to reach the building containing the SFP…

    France has a total of 63 spent fuel pools at its 58 nuclear reactors, which provide 75 percent of the country’s electricity.
    https://www.thelocal.fr/20171012/greenpeace-activists-set-off-fireworks-at-nuclear-plant-in-france

    headline at Le Figaro in France at least calls them “militants”:

    Des militants de Greenpeace tirent un feu d’artifice dans une centrale nucléaire

    Figaro report includes (google translation):

    Around 7 am, eight militants were in police custody, according to the prefecture…
    According to France Bleu Lorraine Nord, the residents of the site described this morning a large deployment of the forces of order. In addition, EDF employees are currently stranded outside the nuclear power plant (the plant employs more than 1,000 people in Cattenom). Condemning “violently violent actions of a movement multiplying illegalities”, the operator announced that he would file a complaint. According to Christelle Dumont, public prosecutor of the Republic of Thionville, the penalties incurred are 5 years imprisonment and 75,000 euros fine.

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      C. Paul Barreira

      In South Australia we store our nuclear waste in hospitals. Pretty good, eh! When will so-called Greenpeace protest?

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    peter

    Try again ! Jo, any comment on these references that supposedly refute your disproving of Man Made Global Warming?

    1. Wrong. The missing heat was in the oceans (Nature Climate Change 5 (2015) 240).
    2. Wrong. Satellite measurements of outgoing radiation confirms the change in energy budget as predicted by the greenhouse effect (Geophys. Res. Lett. 38 (2011) L19701, JGR 120 (2015) 3642).
    3. Wrong. The hot spot is not a core assumption. I bet you don’t even know what it is. Besides, it has since been found. (J. Climate 28 (2015) 2274, ERL 10 (2015) 054007, Geophys. Res. Lett. 40 (2013) 2801).
    4. Wrong. Clouds both cool the planet (during the day) and warm the planet (during the night). High level cloud in the day generally has a cooling effect, but low level cloud can have a warming effect.
    5. Wrong. Climate change models are not expected to predict local weather. On a long term, global scale, they have been remarkably accurate. Don’t believe the plots you find on climate denier blogger websites, they intentionally use incorrect baselines and starting points to distort the comparisons between models and data.
    6. Wrong. We have been over Idso’s debunked 0.4 warming calculations before. In his eight methods he failed to properly account for energy flows and equilibrium.
    7. The planet has warmed over the past 50 years. CO2 in the atmosphere is a well-established physical mechanism that produces warming. Yes, the oceans, orbital cycles and varying solar activity have also caused warming in the past but not one of them is responsible for the currently observed warming (see the IPCC report for the evaluation of each one of these). Even a natural cycle must be driven by some mechanism. So I ask you yet once again, what alternative physical mechanism do you propose is causing the currently observed warming?
    8. I don’t think you understand feedbacks at all. The warming that has occurred since 1972 has exceeded what would be expected for direct CO2 warming, indicating that positive feedbacks are occurring.
    9. Wrong. It is known that it was warmer 1000 years ago because of increased solar radiation and reduced volcanic activity at the time, and an associated change in ocean currents. The warming is predicted by the models. (see for e.g. Science 324 (2009) 5923).

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        peter

        Why is that funny scott? Do you have answers to those claims? Does Jo have any comment? As posted in 2012:
        man-made-global-warming-disproved

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          AndyG55

          “Why is that funny scott?”

          Because you have regurgitated a technicolour spew of non-thinking, anti-science propaganda pap showing just how gullible and susceptible you are to brain-washing.

          That is why its so funny.

          Where did you cut and paste it from ?

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            Glen Michel

            Sounds like he’s attended John Cooks climate seminars. Maybe Al Gores Institute of Advanced Brainwashing. The one that indoctrinated gullible kids. Maybe an academic from ANU .

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              Sceptical Sam

              He’s looking forward to looking at the pictures in Megan Herbert’s illustrated climate propaganda book for children.

              Perhaps he’s one of the peer picture reviewers.

              He obviously can’t think for himself yet.

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          Peter C

          1. The missing heat was in the oceans (Nature Climate Change 5 (2015) 240
          Risible idea! Discussed on this blog at length.

          2. Satellite measurements of outgoing radiation confirms the change in energy budget as predicted by the greenhouse effect (Geophys. Res. Lett. 38 (2011) L19701, JGR 120 (2015) 3642).
          Whatever they thought they showed has not been confirmed by Satellite or balloon temperature measurements. Model predictions run far too hot

          3. . The hot spot is not a core assumption. I bet you don’t even know what it is. Besides, it has since been found. (J. Climate 28 (2015) 2274, ERL 10 (2015) 054007, Geophys. Res. Lett. 40 (2013) 2801).
          No it has not been found

          4. Clouds both cool the planet (during the day) and warm the planet (during the night). High level cloud in the day generally has a cooling effect, but low level cloud can have a warming effect.
          NASA has that on its website. No proof offered as far as I am aware.

          5.Climate change models are not expected to predict local weather. On a long term, global scale, they have been remarkably accurate. Don’t believe the plots you find on climate denier blogger websites, they intentionally use incorrect baselines and starting points to distort the comparisons between models and data.
          No they have not been accurate on a global scale. In respect of local weather, every hurricane, hot day or flood is described by Alarmists as “the type of local weather we expect to see more of with Globull Warming!

          6. . We have been over Idso’s debunked 0.4 warming calculations before. In his eight methods he failed to properly account for energy flows and equilibrium.
          Please provide your reference.

          7. The planet has warmed over the past 50 years. CO2 in the atmosphere is a well-established physical mechanism that produces warming. Yes, the oceans, orbital cycles and varying solar activity have also caused warming in the past but not one of them is responsible for the currently observed warming (see the IPCC report for the evaluation of each one of these). Even a natural cycle must be driven by some mechanism. So I ask you yet once again, what alternative physical mechanism do you propose is causing the currently observed warming?
          IPCC is not a credible source and never was.
          Don’t need to provide an alternative at this stage. It is due to natural mechanisms which are not well understood.

          8. I don’t think you understand feedbacks at all. The warming that has occurred since 1972 has exceeded what would be expected for direct CO2 warming, indicating that positive feedbacks are occurring.
          I don’t think you understand feedbacks at all. No correlation (with CO2) means no causation.

          9. It is known that it was warmer 1000 years ago because of increased solar radiation and reduced volcanic activity at the time, and an associated change in ocean currents. The warming is predicted by the models. (see for e.g. Science 324 (2009) 5923).
          Everything from 1000 years ago is speculation. How can you know what the solar radiation was, or the amount of volcanic activity (which is supposed to cool the Earth) or what the ocean currents were like.

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            AndyG55

            Copy paste, copy paste..

            Off you go !!

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              AndyG55

              I think poor new Peter has left to hunt for something to copy and paste. :-)

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                Ross Stacey

                I would give Peter the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he is trying to educate himself. A good way to start.
                After reading the two it is a valid question to ask for more proof. A sensible reply to the question would be better than assuming it was someone trolling this blog

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                AndyG55

                “I would give Peter the benefit of the doubt”

                I wouldn’t.

                Seen his sort too often.

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                AndyG55

                “A sensible reply to the question would be better “

                There are two solid 9 point replies. #23.1.1.2 and #23.5

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              AndyG55

              Sorry Peter C, that landed in the wrong place .. oops !! :-)

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            peter

            WTF? I ask some simple questions and not only do I NOT get any specific answers and at best (from Peter C)only get angry opinionated rhetoric but I cop 14 red thumbs and a psychotic outburst from AndyG55.

            Thank-you to Ross Stacey for the only intelligent comment I’ve seen so far.

            I’m not a newby but have posted on this site for years with criticism and comment on climate alarmism. I made several attempts to post the same questions before but each time, because I included the site address of Jo’s 2012 posting “man-made-global-warming-disproved”, the comment disappeared and failed to be posted. There are a number of technical faults with this joannenova.com site.

            Yes, I did cut and paste the 9 questions. They came from a reply to me from a rabid supercilious alarmist troll who I have argued frequently about climate questions. Asked what evidence is there why the climate theory is wrong I replied with reference to Jo’s 2012 posting on “man-made-global-warming-disproved”. I’ve always considered that post a good summary of why the climate theory is indeed wrong. Their reply was the nine point/questions I’ve listed above.

            At least each point was answered with a peer reviewed scientific publication reference. I’ve answered to the 9 ‘wrong’ claims but thought (erroneously) that I would get more knowledgeable in-depth analysis of the errors/faults/limitations etc specifically of each of those papers from readers of this Jo Nova site. How wrong I was!!

            I was particularly disappointed that Joanne hasn’t bothered to reply. She of all people should have been right up there on the failings of each of those papers referenced in the troll’s reply.

            10 years ago I was sitting having lunch with several colleagues, all professionals, some with physics degrees on 6-figure salaries (even then), when the subject of climate change came up. I opinioned that the scientific evidence didn’t support a catastrophic outcome from CO2 emissions. One of them exclaimed “oh, you’re a sceptic!”. They all laughed like I was the village idiot who howled at the moon. No more climate discussion ever occurred after that. Has this site degraded to that level of reactionary unintelligence? Where regulars abuse anyone with a different opinion or (as in my case) just ask some simple reasonable questions? Or are people who post here mostly just angry old white men with nothing else better to do?

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              el gordo

              Any suggestion that this is an old men’s shed is unfair.

              At times it looks like a peanut gallery, but that’s only because we can’t attract a resident troll to offer a counterpoint. We hunger for battle but are stuck in barracks.

              In light of the plateau in world temperatures over the past two decades, do you believe CO2 causes warming?

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                peter

                Well, in light of the heat generated on this site, I certainly believe CO2 has caused warming here. Lol.

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                el gordo

                Peter this is a serious matter, are you a lukewarmer?

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                AndyG55

                “In light of the plateau in world temperatures over the past two decades, do you believe CO2 causes warming?”

                It is noted that Peter did not answer this question.

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              AndyG55

              Poor petal…. straight out of the “victim” handbook. :-)

              Do you deny that “you have regurgitated a technicolour spew of non-thinking, anti-science propaganda pap”?

              Don’t you think people are getting sick of seeing the same junk, time and time again ?

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                Ross Stacey

                Fair go Andy. I read Peters comment as a cry for help, not as a rebuttal to Jo’s excellent booklet. I could well have done the same had I not avidly read this blog for the last 4 years. I think it would be nice to have a page that summarises counter arguments that have been put up by the alarmists dismissal of Jo’s booklet.

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                peter

                I don’t even know Luke?

                As our Warmist friends can point out, the plateau only lasted to 2016 when a powerful El Nino jumped up temperature noticeably. You can’t keep extoling the virtue of a temperature plateau that no longer exists, can you?

                I posted the replies (that listed 7 specific scientific references) to Jo’s points to see what response would be made, expecting each reference to be easily refuted on the science. Instead I just copped abuse. No one has commented on any individual scientific paper let alone all seven? I haven’t received any solid replies. Only soft opinionated replies. Scientific questions deserve scientific replies not ad hominem abuse. There was no science in any of Andy’s comments and his abusive anger will not win any argument.

                I often ask global warming alarmists for their evidence. Their response is usually ‘none’ (silence), defer to authority (go read the IPCC reports) or even anger. Their websites are echo-chambers for the faithful. I hope this site is not going the same way?

                Jo Nova was conspicuous by her silence. Which is her right but that wont convince any doubters of her arguments. Do you disagree?

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                el gordo

                ‘…the plateau only lasted to 2016 …’

                I have heard that yarn, but as you know temperatures have cooled considerably since then so its back to the plateau with a precipice looming.

                ‘Do you disagree?’

                Jo has her own agenda and is doing a fantastic job as the editor of a modest sized international daily and the archive will be invaluable for future journalism students. How could we have gotten it so wrong.

                The science interests me so I’ll ask you once again, do you think industrial CO2 is making the world a warmer place?

                A couple of sentences should suffice and avoid graphs with obvious bias or dubious data.

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              AndyG55

              “I was particularly disappointed that Joanne hasn’t bothered to reply”

              You got two solid replies.

              Jo is NOT at your beck and call. !

              [Andy, you're correct but you don't need to defend Jo. She can do that if she thinks it necessary.] AZ

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              robert rosicka

              Whinge and whine you couldn’t debate Jo , I’m sure she has enough to do without replying to every warmist that comes along with a not so smoking gun .
              Plenty people here willing to debate your beliefs by the sound of it your not a newby but have been coerced into the warming rhetoric by those who you believe with a six figure salary and university education couldn’t possibly be wrong .
              I was similar to you in thinking and believing everything I was told about Co2 and it’s effects until one day I heard about ocean acidity and how the oceans are becoming more acidic .
              Owning a pool for twenty years I know about PH and it didn’t sound right so I checked and found out these six figure plus highly educated people were not telling the truth on this subject so what else are they fibbing about .
              Haven’t found one claim yet that holds water , yet to see any paper that’s been through the critique process and not found wanting , climate gate and Manns hockey stick do nothing for your cause neither do computer games .
              Believe what you want but even a lowly uneducated person like myself can count to 14 , what’s your excuse ?

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              Peter C

              OK Peter,

              You say you are a skeptic. Congratulations.

              I am not going to Fisk your whole reply. I will just say this. Ask one question. Then assess the responses.

              I am still searching for some answers and no one on this blog knows all the answers.
              Mostly they have a good grasp of the Questions.

              I do encourage you to purchase a copy of “Climate Change the Facts 2017″ edited by Jennifer Marohasy
              https://www.amazon.com/Climate-Change-Facts-Jennifer-Marohasy/dp/0909536031/ref=pd_sim_14_4?_encoding=UTF8&tag=wattsupwithth-20
              It will cost you $7 for a Kindle edition.

              I have not read all of it so far. However one of the contributions I have read, “The Contribution of Carbon Dioxide to Global warming by Dr John Abbott and John Nicol makes clear just how little basic physical research a\has been conducted ,in recent years, on questions relating to CO2 and the Greenhouse effect.

              The Physicsts are either not interested or do not want to get involved and the Climate Scientists do not want them anyway.

              That needs to change.

              All the best with your enquiries.

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          KinkyKeith

          This is serious.

          I agree with you Pete, this is serious.

          Social security benefits have caused a lot of trouble for everyone over the last 40 years.

          When spare time is spent reading fiction stories that sound so real that H.G.Wells might have been proud to own, we have a problem.

          Houston, we have a problem; people with too much time on their hands reading political claptrap and believing that they are reading science.

          Then they vote to have those working pay more tax dollars to cover the cost of the U.N. humanitarian effort to rectify the problem by giving me rulers of lo.Ely islands and atolls half of the take.

          Fair’s fair. They need the other half to cover the cost of the conferences in Rio and Paris.

          That’s Paris France. Very nice, any time of the year.

          KK

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            KinkyKeith

            AoutKorrect, I hate it.

            Low lying islands.

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              toorightmate

              KK,
              We have low lying politicians.

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                OldGreyGuy

                TRM partially said:
                > lying politicians.

                I am immediately reminded of Mark Twain’s, “but I repeat myself.”

                However I am always amused by some of the twists of the english language. So someone who tells a lie is lying (where did that ‘y’ come from), or we can make Lye from wood ashes leaching the alkalis from the ashes and as most politicians seem to have wooden heads I am wondering if TRM is referring to a set of lies from politicians or is proposing some more radical action to rid us of these dissembling elected officials whose craniums seem to be timbered in origin.

                Just some ramblings on a Weekend Unthreaded. :-)

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          Rereke Whakaaro

          It is funny because Peter is making the basic first semester logical error of asking somebody to prove that something does not exist.

          It is called, “The fallacy of proving a negative”.

          Even nursery school kids understand that:

          “Yesterday, upon the stair,
          I met a man, who wasn’t there.
          He wasn’t there again today,
          I wish that man would go away”

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            Sceptical Sam

            Has Megan Herbert illustrated that yet Rereke?

            Oh yes. I see it now. Underneath your four lines.

            Brilliant illustration too!

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      robert rosicka

      Wrong . Even a natural cycle must be driven , cycles are ridden not driven !

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        robert rosicka

        Actually point 5 gets blown out of the water by Manns hockey schtick.

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          toorightmate

          Every time I think of the hockey stick, I dread how hot it is going to be tomorrow and then umpteen times hotter the following day. Scary stuff – enough to make you want To HOMOGENISE (does that word mean “to keep cool{?).

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          Rereke Whakaaro

          Actually, Mann’s hockey stick becomes closer to the truth, if you invert it.

          Let us not forget that the hockey stick first saw the light of day in the 1970′s when people were worried that we might be drifting into a new Ice Age, due to an increasing level of particulates in the atmosphere.

          One day, people like Peter will finally come to the realisation that nature is cyclic and self-correcting. That was the major lesson learnt from the Ice Age scare, and it was the reason why Schneider, and the rest of the climate worriers, all changed the meme in unison, from cooling to warming.

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      Deplorable Lord Jim

      “1. Wrong. The missing heat was in the oceans (Nature Climate Change 5 (2015) 240).”

      Try reading what has already been written on the relevant subject matter, eg:

      Nature Climate Change 5 (2015) 240 = Roemmich, D, Church, J., et al (2015) Unabated planetary warming and its ocean structure since 2006, Nature Climate Change, doi:10.1038/nclimate2513

      A quick search reveals comment by Jo on that paper, here:
      http://joannenova.com.au/2015/02/how-to-unscientifically-hype-insignificant-noise-in-ocean-warming/

      etc.

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      Serp

      Point 5 is a bit harsh Peter; I’m sure the people running those climate denier blogger websites are sincere in their beliefs and you could add a little kindness to your strictures against them.

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      AndyG55

      1 Wrong.. there is no proof or measurement of mechanism whereby CO2 back-radiation can warm the oceans. The oceans warm the atmosphere.

      2. Wrongs. Satellites show that out-going radiation increases with the natural warming from the oceans.

      3. The hot spot WAS a key assumption.. Why do you think so much effort was put into data mashing in an attempt to fabricate it. It was never found it was a load of statistical gibberish.

      4. Low level clouds are there because they have done their job of cooling the planet. Sometimes they do too good a job hence there is slower cooling for a while., which is what fools the climate fools.

      5. Climate models don’t “predict” anything. They are fairy-talks at best, pure garbage at worst.

      6. Idso is not correct, there is actually no mechanism whereby CO2 can warm a convective atmosphere, there is not one single paper that proves empirically that it does, and several that prove it doesn’t.

      7. The ONLY warming has come from El Nino and ocean events, There is NO CO2 warming signal in the satellite data. There is no mechanism whereby CO2 can warm a convective atmosphere, there is not one single paper that proves empirically that it does, and several that prove it doesn’t. (produce a paper showing empirical proof that CO2 causes warming in our convective atmosphere.. surely , after 40 or so years?? )

      8. You CERTAINLY don’t understand feedbacks. All feedbacks balance the non-warming from CO2. ;-)

      9. Certainly was warmer 1000 years ago. since then we have had a Little Ice Age, and a slight amount of highly beneficial warming to go along with the absolutely beneficial increase in atmospheric CO2. Thing about CO2, it is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL for ALL life on Earth, and it is still at pretty low levels compared to plant requirements.

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      AndyG55

      So basically , peter.. you have been sold a load of brain-washed propaganda garbage,

      and you have swallowed it whole, like a good little non-thinking anti-science, AGW apostle.

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      AndyG55

      ” climate denier blogger websites”

      Yes you should avoid places like Non-Skeptical No-science.

      They are the real DENIERS of natural climate change.

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      AndyG55

      ” On a long term, global scale, they have been remarkably accurate.”

      OMG, do you really believe that pap? Bizarre.. !!

      Let me guess , you have close to zero mathematical ability to see through the sham statistics that they use to try to hide their manic FAILURE.

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        AndyG55

        ” On a long term, global scale, they have been remarkably accurate.”

        They keep shifting the baseline every few years, start again, until the REAL temperatures drop down below the least worst projection. Then shift the baseline again.

        You really do see them doing it?

        Are you really that mathematically inept?

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      robert rosicka

      Just curious to see how far gone you are Peter , what’s your take on ocean acidity as in the oceans are becoming more acidic ?

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      One of the problems in science is to find something predicted and verify it.
      The Tropospheric Hot Spot was a feature of global warming theory.
      If it is not, then why the attempt to prove it true?

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      Graeme#4

      A newbie warmost that doesn’t have a clue what he is talking about? Oh goody! We need some more levity around here occasionally.

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      Rereke Whakkaro

      However, for all his naivety, Peter did manage to provide us with six and a half hours of amusing entertainment. That was not a bad effort, I reckon.

      For a while there, I thought we had a live one, but no. The quality of academic indoctrination is still going through the floor.

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      • #
        el gordo

        We are chafing at the bit, waiting for combat, and all we get is a very angry young man who walks in off the street with cuts and pastes.

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          robert rosicka

          It’s Andys fault he scared him off with facts .

          54

        • #
          doubtingdave

          not so , I have done my home work , do you want me to give you a different version of reality than the one you have been bought up to accept

          21

        • #
          Graeme#4

          It would be nice to have our own Griff here, who provides great entertainment on WUWT.
          If I could say something to Peter, it would be a suggestion that when visiting a blog site for the first time, it’s always worthwhile monitoring what’s going on for a long while before joining the conversation. Then perhaps Peter might have learnt that many of the contributors here have a significant detailed scientific or technical knowledge. So if you comment here, you had better have your ducks in a row, otherwise you will be the wood duck in the shooting gallery.

          51

          • #
            el gordo

            A blog of this size should be able to attract a couple of characters, happy to argue the case for the Blue Team, but they’re scarcer than hens teeth.

            30

            • #
              AndyG55

              Twotter, Frank.. zero-science arguments and empty obnoxious bluster.

              Gee.. an apparently zero-content piece of green twitter confetti.

              Then the anonymous red thumbers…. scary ! :-)

              As you say, the AGW quality is basically zero to negative.

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                Rereke Whakaaro

                Gee Aye has his moments.

                I have a suspicion that he knows more than he lets on, and is just playing with us.

                30

              • #
                AndyG55

                “that he knows more than he lets on”

                I’m sure he does too..

                It is not possible he could know less than he lets on.!!

                34

              • #
                el gordo

                ‘…is just playing with us.’

                True, but its only semantics and he knows nothing of the science.

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          • #
            Will Janoschka

            If you cannot identify the succor\sucker in the poker game’ you’r it! :-)

            24

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    pat

    meanwhile, cyber hacking can be a very serious matter. 2 years’ imprisonment not uncommon, and worse!

    Wikipedia: List of computer criminals
    Hao Jingwen: China: Accused of hacking into a bank computer network and stealing 260,000 renminbi ($US31,400)
    Sentenced to death and executed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_computer_criminals

    30

  • #
    pat

    12 Oct: SolarPowerPortal: Clean Growth Strategy: the green economy responds
    Jeremy Leggett, founder at Solarcentury: “The full five pages of proposals ***do not mention solar PV – the world’s fastest growing power technology, with the lowest prices on offer to many governments – once.
    HMG’s omission is incomprehensible, given that large British companies like Solarcentury are major active players in this hugely attractive clean-energy growth market, at home and abroad”…
    https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/clean_growth_strategy_the_green_economy_responds

    Carrington looks on the bright side!

    12 Oct: Guardian: Damian Carrington: UK climate change masterplan – the grownups have finally won
    Government’s clean growth strategy unequivocally states that tackling climate change and a prosperous economy go hand in hand
    The grownups have finally won and everyone in the UK, from those in cold homes to those on polluted streets and in flooded towns, will benefit…
    The new strategy published on Thursday signals a new, if belated, beginning. It is the beginning of the end of the fossil fuel age…
    However, ***while many of the details are missing, the clean growth strategy marks an important and vital step forward for the UK. As the prime minister Theresa May says in the plan’s foreword: “Clean growth is not an option, but a duty we owe to the next generation…
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/12/uk-climate-change-masterplan-grownups-finally-won-clean-growth-strategy

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  • #
    David Maddison

    You’ll be pleased to know that Australia’s discredited BoM is claiming 22 September 2017 as the hottest September day eeevvvuuuhhh.

    http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/current/statements/scs62.pdf

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    pat

    14 Oct: WUWT: Eric Worrell: S&P Backs Renewables: “The Tide has Turned”
    Standard & Poor, the credit rating agency which in 2015 paid $1.4 billion to regulators to settle legal action related to its role in the 2008 subprime mortgage fiasco, now thinks that renewable power is the future:

    ‘Tide has turned’: Global rating agency says climate economics trump politics
    Peter Hannam
    OCTOBER 14 2017
    “The tide has turned,” said Michael Wilkins, the head of climate and environmental risks at Standard & Poor’s Global Ratings, adding the transition meant the economic viability of assets such as coal mines and coal-fired power stations would be “vastly impaired”.
    Mr Wilkins’ comments come as new S&P research points to deep falls in the costs of renewable energy as other groups report important shifts by corporations at home and abroad on climate risks…
    LINK TO SMH

    Eric Worrell: Frankly I’m shocked that an organisation which prides itself on prudential advice would take such a position…
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/10/14/sp-backs-renewables-the-tide-has-turned/

    I posted the following in the WUWT comments FT worth reading in full, for some laughs:

    talk is cheap.

    15 Oct: Financial Times: BlackRock and Vanguard’s climate change efforts are glacial
    The engagement excuse on global warming is wearing thin, writes Attracta Mooney
    BlackRock, a large investor in companies that rely heavily on fossil fuels, does not seem a likely environmentalist.
    But one year ago, the world’s largest asset manager issued a stark warning about global warming. “Investors can no longer ignore climate change,” said the fund house, which oversees $6tn in assets.

    The New York-listed company argued that even if one did not agree with the science, investors could not disregard the “swelling tide of climate-related regulations and technological disruption”. Investors, it said, needed to act to protect their portfolios.

    Yet just a few months later, BlackRock appeared to forget its own warning. Throughout the year to June 2017, the fund house repeatedly voted against resolutions at annual general meetings that called on companies to provide more clarity about how they might be affected by climate change…

    As Carolyn Hayman, who co-chairs Preventable Surprises, a lobby group, says: “We are talking about systemic risk from climate change that will effect the whole economy worldwide. [Investors] have a fiduciary duty to understand this…

    The climate change issue is here to stay. Even with the US withdrawing from the Paris agreement, governments show few signs of slowing down their drive to limit global warming…
    https://www.ft.com/content/adc7973a-b001-11e7-beba-5521c713abf4

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    pat

    for Peter Hannam:

    14 Oct: EconomicTimesIndia: Govt power push, shift in energy mix can be a good theme to play
    By DK Agarwal
    ***If data is to be believed within three years, India’s total power capacity has increased by nearly one third from 243GW in March 2014 to 320 GW in March 2017…
    Even the supply of coal to power utilities has also increased by 20.6 percent to 35.1 MT in September 2017 against 29 MT in the same month 2016. The rise in power demand led to a 17 per cent year-on-year increase in coal-based generation in August, and the same trend has continued in September…
    If we compare the data of domestic demand of electricity with the coal production, it can be seen that in the month of May 2017, coal production has increased to 51.38mn tonnes as compared to April 2017, a change of 8.5 per cent marked.

    India is the world’s third largest energy consumer and Coal will continue to be a dominant commercial fuel from now and beyond for India’s power sector, given the vast domestic feedstock available to power generators…

    It could be seen that the success of the Modi government of coal block auctions has benefited the country in a big way. If the coal sector picks up, the performance of power and infrastructure will pick up and it will have a multiplier effect on the economy.
    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/markets/stocks/news/govt-power-push-shift-in-energy-mix-can-be-a-good-theme-to-play/articleshow/61078318.cms

    14 Oct: Manila Bulletin: Pangasinan eyed as site of $2-billion coal-fired power plant
    By Liezle Basa Iñigo
    Sual, Pangasinan — Considering that power rates in the Philippines are the third highest in Asia in the survey done by an Australia-based consulting firm specializing in Asian power markets, this town is welcoming the possible entry of another coal-fired power plant.
    Mayor Roberto Arcinue shared his view that construction of more power plants in the province is the most effective way of providing cheaper electricity rate and preventing another power crisis.

    Citing the survey made by the International Energy Consultants (IEC) that the Philippines’ power rates are already the 16th highest in the world, Arcinue is entertaining talks with another multi-national company planning to put up a 1,000-megawatt coal-fired power plant in his town…
    This town already hosts Team Energy’s 1,200-MW Sual power station, the country’s biggest coal-fired power plant, located in Barangay Pangascasan, Sual,which began operating in 1999.

    Arcinue said he sees nothing wrong with the government’s plan to put up new coal-fired power plants to boost power supply in the country.
    https://news.mb.com.ph/2017/10/14/pangasinan-eyed-as-site-of-2-billion-coal-fired-power-plant/

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      AndyG55

      Even the Philippines are building new COAL fired power station !!

      WAKE UP AUSTRALIA. !!!

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        PeterS

        Time is running out for Australia. If we don’t start building new generation coal fired power stations very soon, we will be left behind of the rest of the world so much we will be like North Korea where the lights go out at night.

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        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          If you want to mimic North Korea, you would need a statesman-like leader, similar to Kim Jong Un.

          Actually, now I think about it …

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            Yonniestone

            Its those haircuts that worry me most…..the repressive lifestyle is coming along nicely here….

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              OldGreyGuy

              I wouldn’t mind if a few of the ferals who rabbit on about every leftist cause in the media would get a haircut every now and again.

              … and a shave.

              … and a bath.

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          Another Ian

          PeterS

          This is actually VERY forward thinking – gives us the chance to be FIRST in on the coal development that comes beyond HELE and we’ll have all that coal that we didn’t burn

          /s shouldn’t be necessary

          30

        • #
          David Maddison

          As Tony from Oz has said before, even if a decision was made today to build a new coal power station it would take about 6 or 7 years before it came online. Under the present policies we don’t have that much time because the economy will be well and truly ruined by then with the only likely viable industries being tourism and some agriculture (but not operations like dairy farming which require cheap and reliable power).

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            AndyG55

            Is there a faster option by building modern units as extensions to current coal power stations?

            Save one heck of a lot on infrastructure build.

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    pat

    ***hmmm. wasn’t the spin partly that some of the money would go towards “renewables”?

    14 Oct: Financial Times: Saudi Aramco considers shelving international IPO
    Oil company could turn to private share placement as doubts grow about going public
    by Anjli Raval in London, James Fontanella-Khan and Arash Massoudi in New York and Simeon Kerr in Dubai

    Saudi Aramco is considering shelving plans for an international listing in favour of a private share sale to the world’s biggest sovereign wealth funds and institutional investors. Talks about a private sale to foreign governments including China and other investors have gathered pace in recent weeks, according to five people familiar with the initial public offering preparations, amid growing concerns about the feasibility of an international listing…

    ***One person working for Saudi Aramco said that the Chinese government was close to playing a key role in any new plan…

    Saudi Aramco said: “A range of options, for the public listing of Saudi Aramco, continue to be held under active review. No decision has been made and the IPO process remains on track.”…

    ***There has been growing discord within Aramco ranks about the benefits of a listing for the country. Four people close to the company have said the government would ***never be able to generate the same rate of returns by deploying IPO proceeds to non-oil investments

    Even so, Saudi Aramco’s chief executive Amin Nasser said earlier this month that the initial public offering of the state oil company remained on track for 2018.
    https://www.ft.com/content/42b521c0-b028-11e7-beba-5521c713abf4

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    Antoine D'Arche

    hope you enjoyed yourselves and had a good break.
    Cause this summer the sh#t is going to hit the fan…

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    Ruairi

    The planet-saving Greens don’t really care,
    That renewable wood-burning smogs the air.

    The more the Greens make power prices jump,
    The more Australia needs a Donald Trump.

    Renewables though subsidized aren’t able,
    To pay their way or keep a state grid stable.

    The global warmists talk so much hot air,
    It could affect some wind speeds here and there.

    Australians could build treadmills in each state,
    To power grids and shun the coal they hate.

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    pat

    15 Oct: UK Sun: Gethin Chamberlain: JEZZA’S SALES PITCH Jeremy Corbyn ‘ethical’ £19 T-shirts have been made by Indian workers who earn just 55p an hour
    Workers would have to graft for a week before they could afford to buy one of the pricey tops
    The shirts are manufactured for the Corbyn-backing Momentum group in a factory in Coimbatore.
    Momentum turned to Isle of Wight-based clothes firm Rapanui following a scandal involving another company…

    Tory MP Andrew Bridgen said: “This demonstrates once again the rank hypocrisy of the left.”…
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4687310/t-shirts-cheap-labour-india-jeremy-corbyn-hypocrisy-claims/

    40

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    Joe

    I notice some new cars have a climate control knob – jeez that’s wicked! Must work on the exhaust gas or something.

    60

  • #
    pat

    playing the “renewable” card, which I’ve ignored in the excerpts:

    12 Oct: Reuters: Brazil to ramp up oil production before ‘renewable era’ hits: official
    by Luciano Costa
    Since 2006, Brazil has discovered potentially massive stores of oil and gas trapped below a layer of salt under the ocean floor off its coast, but slumping global oil prices have complicated efforts to exploit these reserves.
    (Deputy Energy Minister Paulo) Pedrosa said the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC), which has cut output to reduce a global crude glut and support prices, should not expect Brazil to help control the global oil supply.
    OPEC’s chief said Tuesday the cartel was meeting with the United States and reaching out to other countries in an effort to restrict global supplies and combat low prices…

    Brazil has several rounds of bidding for new exploration areas planned each year through 2019 and is discussing two additional annual auctions in both 2020 and 2021.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-energy/brazil-to-ramp-up-oil-production-before-renewable-era-hits-official-idUSKBN1CG2EW

    minus the “renewable” nonsense, getting down to business:

    28 Sept: Reuters: Exxon Mobil bets on Brazil, buys 10 oil blocks in auction
    by Alexandra Alper, Rodrigo Viga Gaier
    (Additional reporting by Pedro Fonseca in Rio, Marcelo Texiera in Sao Paulo and Ernest Scheyder in Houston, Writing by Alexandra Alper and Guillermo Parra-Bernal; Editing by David Gregorio and Cynthia Osterman)
    Exxon Mobil Corp vastly expanded its presence in Brazil on Wednesday, winning 10 blocks in the country’s 14th round of bidding for oil exploration and production rights, helping the cash-strapped nation fetch a record 3.8 billion reais ($1.19 billion)…

    Exxon Mobil took six blocks in consortia with state-controlled oil giant Petroleo Brasileiro in the promising offshore Campos basin, after bidding 2.24 billion reais for one block. That was Brazil’s highest-ever such bid.
    The U.S. company prior to the auction was among the few oil majors without a presence in the exploration of the recently discovered large offshore fields in Brazil…

    Asked after the auction why he spent so much on the bids, Petrobras CEO Pedro Parente said he had information suggesting the blocks were part of the pre-salt area, one of the world’s largest oil discoveries in recent decades…
    The auction was seen as a test of whether market-friendly reforms under President Michel Temer could tempt investors back to a sector struggling after years of state meddling and tarnished by a corruption scandal at Petrobras…

    Environmental activists protested the auction and threatened to invade the Rio de Janeiro hotel where the round was taking place. They were removed after scuffling with hotel security staff…

    The auction was Brazil’s 14th round for blocks outside of the coveted pre-salt area and should gauge appetite for the country’s second and third pre-salt rounds next month.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-oil-auction/exxon-mobil-bets-on-brazil-buys-10-oil-blocks-in-auction-idUSKCN1C22UY

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    pat

    lots more hilarity at the link. surprised CBC has published it:

    12 Oct: CBC: Exhibition Place wind turbine hasn’t produced power since March
    Toronto Hydro says turbine suffered water damage during a storm, repairs took months
    By Mike Crawley
    The wind turbine that symbolized Ontario’s push for green energy is at a standstill and won’t be generating electricity until next month at the earliest, CBC News has learned.
    The turbine located at Exhibition Place was damaged in a storm in March, and it hasn’t worked since.

    The rainstorm caused water damage to the turbine’s ring generator, said Tori Gass, media relations specialist for Toronto Hydro. The turbine is a joint venture of Toronto Hydro Energy Services Inc. and the WindShare Co-operative.
    “There were also high winds in this rainstorm … and that’s what allowed the rain to get into the generator area,” Gass said Wednesday in an interview with CBC Toronto. “This is the first time it happened in the life of [the turbine], it’s not a common occurrence.”

    It took until August to find a specialist firm that could do the necessary repair, which cost about $100,000, said Gass. Toronto Hydro then decided to perform other upgrades, at a cost of $25,000, that are be completed in November
    This is just the latest in a series of maintenance troubles for the turbine since it began operating in 2003.

    Its original backers promoted it as a showcase for the benefits of wind energy, billing it as “the most visible wind turbine in Canada” with its location along the shore of Lake Ontario, just west of downtown.

    The turbine was sometimes used as a photo backdrop by former premier Dalton McGuinty and other members of his government, until a backlash over wind farms in rural Ontario contributed to the Liberals losing several seats in the 2011 election…

    Gass, of Toronto Hydro, rejected the assertion the turbine is unreliable.
    “It might seem like it’s not running a lot of the time, but actually in the realm of turbines, this one is considered quite reliable,” said Gass, adding that the turbine has an availability record of 95 per cent…

    Criticism of Ontario’s wind energy program has focused on the hefty premiums paid to wind farm companies, financed by hydro customers’ electricity bills, as well as homeowner complaints about noise and vibration. In addition, wind turbines in Ontario tend to produce power when it is least needed, such as at nighttime, while generating little power on hot summer days, when demand for electricity peaks.
    “Wind turbines are not really effective,” said (Wind Concerns Ontario Parker) Gallant. “They basically produce intermittent, unreliable power, out of synch with demand.”
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/wind-turbine-electricity-power-cne-toronto-hydro-1.4349292

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    pat

    10 Oct: Handelsblatt: Wind-Turbine Investors in the Doldrums
    Germany’s three largest publicly-traded wind-power companies may have lost their drive, but some analysts recommend hanging onto the stock
    by Leonard Kehnscherper
    Because of the amendment, wind-turbine operators now earn eight euro cents per kilowatt of electricity they feed into the grid, down from nine cents, and that number is expected to drop to seven cents by the end of 2018. The one-cent decrease alone reduces annual revenue by up to €50,000 ($59,000) per wind turbine. That drop, coupled with the bidding auctions intended to support public wind energy companies, has significantly impacted suppliers’ bottom line.

    The combined earnings before interest and taxes of the three largest publicly-traded wind-power companies in Germany, Nordex, Senvion and Siemens Gamesa, fell by almost 20 percent from €415 million to €333 million for the first six months of 2017, compared with the same period a year ago. Their lower earnings have also affected their stock prices…
    Nordex, for instance, has seen its stock drop from €32.75 to just under €11 since the beginning of 2016, and it could dip still further. Sven Diermeier, an analyst with Independent Research, warned about the fourth quarter “because of provisions for personnel reductions.” The company, which has yet to provide a sales forecast for 2018, plans to cut between 400 and 500 jobs…

    Siemens Gamesa’s stock price hasn’t performed much better. British investment bank HSBC recently lowered its target price from €15.50 to €13. Sean McLoughlin, an analyst with the bank, warned that turbulent years lie ahead for European wind-turbine manufacturers, adding that wind-power auctions will continue to depress prices and raise pressure on margins…
    As with Nordex, job cuts are also expected at Siemens Gamesa, with 600 to 2,100 jobs on the line at the Danish site in Aalborg…

    But not all wind-turbine suppliers are suffering. Denmark’s Vestas stock has risen from €47.61 to €75.35 since December 2016…
    But Mr. Diermeier cautioned that all wind-turbine makers, including Vestas, could see their stock negatively impacted, should the European Central Bank decided to raise interest rates. “The stock value could decline because customers have to pay more for their financing,” Mr. Diermeier explained…
    https://global.handelsblatt.com/finance/wind-turbine-investors-in-the-doldrums-838052

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    john

    Bill and Chelsea were in Boston at Northeastern university last night. Chelsea fled reporters when asked about Weinstein.

    [The link you provided does not work. Try this instead.] AZ

    https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/10/14/chelsea-clinton-reportedly-flees-the-scene-when-asked-about-returning-weinstein-money/

    Meanwhile, at the same time, Hillary was in Wales having a law school named…after her.
    Hillary Clinton has received an honorary doctorate from Swansea University during a visit to the city.
    The former US secretary of state and 2016 American presidential candidate was presented with the award during a ceremony at Swansea University’s Bay Campus.
    She said the honour “meant the world to her”.
    The university’s College of Law was also renamed the Hillary Rodham Clinton School of Law.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-41611316

    —-

    This gives higher education a really bad name.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U

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      toorightmate

      Hillary and 4 Corners – what a coup!!!!
      She is now blaming Assange for her election loss. Is there anyone she has not yet blamed.
      I still fail to understand why Trump continues to let this crook loose.

      50

      • #
        Another Ian

        TRM

        Hillary for one

        30

        • #
          Another Ian

          “I still fail to understand why Trump continues to let this crook loose.”

          There seems to be a suspicion that Trump is aware of Napoleon’s comment about not your job to correct errors made by your opponent.

          So some speculation on where the two ends of the rope are.

          40

      • #
        Rereke Whakaaro

        Because Hillary and Obama have dug themselves a hole, and Trump knows that you don’t get out of a hole by digging it deeper.

        30

  • #
    Ian George

    Jo,
    Another BoM failure.
    Casino has had over 60mls in the past few days but the official reading is about 8mm.
    It is recording totals as if the gauge is operational – which it clearly isn’t.
    http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDN60801/IDN60801.94573.shtml

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      robert rosicka

      The driest October eevvvaaahhhh .

      41

    • #
      el gordo

      If they start fiddling around with the rain gauges we are truly sunk.

      With the apparent absence of major drivers like ENSO and IOD, BoM seems to think there isn’t much happening.
      http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/outlooks/#/rainfall/median/seasonal/0

      My forecast, without the aid of sophisticated computers, is for above average precipitation in the south east and the coolest summer in living memory.

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      • #
        robert rosicka

        They have also started to “homogenise” flood levels .

        31

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        Graeme No.3

        el gordo:

        Predictions can be chancy things
        And the more wrong they are, the more lauded they become as prophets”experts”. e.g.

        The guy who made these predictions, for example:

        “By the year 2000 the United Kingdom will be simply a small group of impoverished islands, inhabited by some 70 million hungry people.”

        “If I were a gambler, I would take even money that England will not exist in the year 2000.”

        “[i]n ten years [after 1970] all important animal life in the sea will be extinct. Large areas of coastline will have to be evacuated because of the stench of dead fish.”

        Is he:

        (A) in a loony bin sharing a room with Julius Caesar and Napoleon Bonaparte?
        (B) unemployed and carrying around “End of the World is Nigh” signs?
        (C) a recently appointed Fellow of the Royal Society?

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          el gordo

          Yeah but we are only looking at seasonal forecasts, its BoM against me.

          This is a typical blue team (modellers) and red team (paleo history) making a guesstimate.

          21

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    robert rosicka

    ABC is banging on about that news poll and people wanting subsidies to continue , if that was the poll that called me they wanted to talk to someone under thirty and hung up when told no one here at the moment .
    I wondered what that was all about .

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  • #
    Another Ian

    “In this post I depart somewhat from our usual format to cover three stories from last week that have a common theme of underlying chaos in and manipulation of energy policy.”

    http://euanmearns.com/mendacity-duplicity-and-scaremongering/

    30

  • #
    • #
      Another Ian

      Way back when a version of Wordstar mentioned that its spellcheck could handle “kawphy” as in the joke of the time

      30

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    I’ve just learned that a group of firefighters from Australia is now on the job here in California helping to contain the fires we’ve got raging away. I’ve no doubt that they bring some useful experience with them from fighting the fires you’ve had in the past.

    THANK YOU AUSTRALIA. :-)

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  • #
    TdeF

    Scott Morrison says there is no ‘silver bullet’ to electricity costs. Why not repeal the Renewable Energy (Electricity) Act 2001? After all, ‘Renewables’ no longer need to built with massive charges buried in our electricity bills.

    I also note that they allege half of the electricity cost is in ‘distribution’. How much of that is to build distribution for windmills and home solar, endless powerlines to the myriad of wind farms? You know, the ones which blow over and bring down the whole grid. Let the windfarm and solar people build their own infrastructure. We did not need these power lines and they should not be built at our expense, buried in our bills.

    Also as Frydenburg said last week, in the last ten years $40Billion has been ‘invested’ in renewables. Isn’t that enough of our money, considering we are now forced to buy power from the people who received our money? He also said that $11Billion of that is in assets which only work 3 days a year.

    In the old days, we paid taxes and the government built power stations and we paid low rates for power as after all, we paid for the power stations and they used our coal. Now we pay for the wind farms and solar, other people own them and retailers charge the world’s highest rates for electricity. If wind and solar are so cheap, why aren’t we paying much less?

    If you read the report of the Hepburn Springs wind farm, they are finally making the money they predicted 1/3 from actual power sales and 2/3 from cash from coal power. This is the premise on which the wind farm was build, rivers of cash from coal power. This was never about the environment.

    Silver bullet? Yes. Repeal the bill. Stop the robbery. They have stolen enough and we, the providers of these billions, want a discount or just turn them off. Permanently.

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      TdeF

      When does the RET end? It has been 16 years since the robbery started, now at $6Billion a year. However at night wind and solar are often 2% of the (electricity) requirements of Australia. So the promoters only want another 50x $40Billion or $2000Billion to get rid of coal and gas? No. Stop the insanity. We have had, we have given enough. Why should it continue?

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        Tdef

        Why do we need wind and solar? Most people have no need. A lot like the NBN. Another absurd idea on the back of a beer coaster.

        Snowy II? Very Fast Train? Another airport for Sydney? Desalination plants? No cost benefit. Ratbag ideas. At our expense.

        Forget Malcolm’s ‘International Obligations’. That was optional and no one really argues we get any benefit at all. If the Paris Agreement went to referendum, it would never pass. Our politicians have sold us down the river.

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    Robber

    The ACCC has published its Preliminary Report for its inquiry into retail electricity pricing in NSW, Queensland, South Australia, Tasmania, Victoria and the ACT.
    “One thing is clear from this consultation and information gathering: there is a severe electricity affordability problem across the NEM and the price increases over the past ten years are putting Australian businesses and consumers under unacceptable pressure.”
    Wow, some straight talking!
    “We have found that there is insufficient competition in the generation and retail markets, which both raises prices and increases barriers to entry”.
    “Our preliminary findings are that, on average across the NEM, a 2015–16 residential bill was $1524 (excluding GST), and was made up of:
     network costs (48 per cent)
     wholesale costs (22 per cent)
     environmental costs (7 per cent)
     retail and other costs (16 per cent)
     retail margins (8 per cent)”
    “We estimate that higher wholesale costs during 2016–17 were likely to increase the average bill by a further $167″.
    “On any measure, it is clear that electricity prices in Australia have gone from a source of competitive advantage to a drain on business productivity and a serious affordability concern for households”.

    The ACCC is accepting submissions in response to this preliminary report.

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      toorightmate

      People should be forced to take a long hard look at these findings.
      For these astronomically high costs to be the case in the world’s most energy rich country is ludicrous.
      It is a sad indictment on those who have governed Australia for the past 25 years – at Federal and State level. We, the voters, should hang our heads in shame.

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    toorightmate

    Totally unrelated to climate:
    The press has recently emphasized Putin’s love for dogs.
    I wonder if he does this to antagonise past Democrat US Presidents. They like cats (here, puss, puss, puss).

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    el gordo

    Keep a weather eye on Greenland’s mass balance…

    https://www.dmi.dk/uploads/tx_dmidatastore/webservice/b/m/s/d/e/accumulatedsmb.png

    … and that hurricane hitting Ireland is a regional cooling signal.

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    pat

    channelling Orwell again:

    16 Oct: AFR: Ben Potter: ACCC’s Rod Sims says CET may push energy prices down or up
    Australian Competition and Commission chairman Rod Sims said the proposed Clean Energy Target could help to push wholesale electricity prices down but renewable energy target subsidies may push up retail prices again…

    Under either scheme, retailers must acquire sufficient clean or renewable generation certificates to match the target for their own energy supply in each year…

    ***Other reports that focused on this question have found that the wholesale price effects of increased investment, coupled with the ***negligible marginal operating costs of wind and solar energy which enable them to undercut gas and coal power in the NEM when wind and solar power are abundant, is larger than the cost of clean energy subsidies.
    This results in a net benefit to the consumer…

    The Warburton review of the RET undertaken when Tony Abbott – the strongest advocate in the government for axing the CET – also found that the RET was beneficial to consumers and business customers.
    http://www.afr.com/news/acccs-rod-sims-says-cet-may-push-energy-prices-down-or-up-20171012-gyznzp

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    pat

    The Australian article is behind paywall.
    some excerpts here, plus other articles excerpted:

    16 Oct: MacroBusiness: ACCC throws up another energy shock yawn
    By Houses and Holes in Australian LNG, Australian Politics
    Depending on which paper you read, the ACCC has just condemned the entire National Electricity Market (LINK). If you read The Australian it’s all the fault of renewables…

    (FROM LINK TO THE AUSTRALIAN)
    Malcolm Turnbull faces a crucial cabinet debate today with a new warning from voters against schemes that pass hidden power costs on to households, with ­almost 60 per cent of Australians saying they will not pay a cent more for clean energy policies.
    The warning, in a special Newspoll survey, comes as the consumer watchdog prepares to release extraordinary research today showing households are paying $103 every year on average for environmental schemes.
    The Australian Competition & Consumer Commission will warn today of “unacceptable pressure” on households from the spike in energy prices, which have soared 43.7 per cent in a decade — an average increase of more than $500 per bill — as a result of network costs, retail margins and climate-change targets…

    The government has abandoned the clean energy target proposed by chief scientist Alan Finkel, amid warnings from Coalition backbenchers that the subsidies for solar and wind power, passed on to consumers through an emissions intensity scheme, would result in 42 per cent of electricity coming from renewable sources by 2030.
    In another sign of a key contradiction at the heart of energy policy, the Newspoll shows 63 per cent of voters support subsidies for renewable power but do not accept paying those subsidies in increased electricity bills…ETC
    https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/10/accc-throws-another-energy-shock-yawn/

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    Consider this for a minute.

    Australia consumes (around) 200TWH of power each year.

    Sydney consumes around 7% of that total, and probably even more than that, but I’ll go on the low side here, so that comes in at 14TWH per year, so on average around, wait for it, 38,360,000KWH per day of power. That daily power consumption is higher in Summer and lower in Winter.

    The average home consumes around 20KWH of power a day.

    So, Sydney ALONE consumes around the same power as 1.91 Million homes.

    To, umm, alleviate the possibility of power outages this Summer, they are proposing that homes restrict their consumption of electricity, for a bonus, a bribe if you will.

    Any savings on power consumption would be purely voluntary, and of such a small nature as to be all but inconsequential, and probably not even noticed.

    Almost 2 Million homes – JUST FOR SYDNEY.

    Someone somewhere must be having a real good chuckle.

    Tony.

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      Will Janoschka

      “Someone somewhere must be having a real good chuckle.”

      Only the banksters rolling around in in the theft of your hard earned money! :-(

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    Another Ian

    On industry subsidies

    ” November 12, 2015 at 5:18 pm

    Adding to what you said, and it’s a pet peeve of mine-is that fossil fuel companies (and thousands of other companies) by and large receive tax breaks, not subsidies- though they receive some. They’re two different things, though the media constantly uses the same term for both. A subsidy, by definition, is the government giving money to an individual or company so as to become viable. A tax break let’s you keep more of what was already yours- nobody is “giving” anything to anybody. Solar and wind receive “subsides”, which is money from the government. Fossil fuel (and you and I) receive mostly tax breaks.”

    And subsequent comments

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/11/12/one-of-the-longest-running-climate-prediction-blunders-has-disappeared-from-the-internet/#comment-2070590

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    D. Steven Fraser

    Jo,

    love the pic. Sun at a high angle, rain down low. Love the colors.

    As the sun sets, the rainbow rises.

    All the best.

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    pat

    David Maddison’s Bolt article (comment #55) is a must-read; ditto some of the comments, one of which links to:

    Bolt’s article is a must-read; ditto some of the comments. one includes this:

    16 Oct: CatallaxyFiles: Alan Moran: ACCC offers some clarity but much obfuscation in its report on electricity price rises
    The increase in costs from generation and from retail is all due to the renewable energy program increasing costs of doing business and forcing out low cost coal generators. It is these measures that have led to the wholesale price of electricity rising from under $40 per MWh in 2015 to $90 per MWh today.

    The wholesale component of household bills is about one third. So this cost increase has led to as much as a $400 per household increase on top of the $100 directly paid in green energy subsidies. The wholesale price effect is far greater for business customers where the energy component can be up to 60 per cent of costs…READ ALL
    http://catallaxyfiles.com/2017/10/16/accc-offers-some-clarity-but-much-obfuscation-in-its-report-on-electricity-price-rises/

    and CAGW policies have cost much more than that.

    end the CAGW scam now.

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    pat

    how on earth does this get published at The Courier Mail?
    Mark Bailey is given free rein to speak total rubbish; solar is given more PR!

    16 Oct: Courier Mail: ACCC accuses electricity companies of deliberately hurting families
    by Renee Viellaris
    And in findings likely to be seized on by state Opposition Leader Tim Nicholls, ACCC chairman Rod Sims has estimated Queenslanders paid the most to turn on their lights in 2016-17.
    The average southeast Queensland power bill has skyrocketed 52 per cent in just nine years…
    “The ACCC estimates that in 2016-17, Queenslanders will be paying the most for their electricity, followed by South Australians and people living in NSW,” Mr Sims said yesterday…

    ???Queensland Energy Minister Mark Bailey said the ACCC report showed the national electricity market was broken.
    He said retaining power assets in public ownership helped reduce the price increase compared to other states…
    “What we know is that renewables are getting cheaper and cheaper every year,” he said.
    “They are now the cheapest form of energy infrastructure by a long way.
    “If we want the best outcomes for bills you’ve gotta back the cheapest, latest technology in our system.”…

    ‘WE’RE LOOKING INTO SOLAR’
    NICOLE Jones, who lives in Bardon with her partner and two young daughters Mika and Arkie, said electricity prices had a significant impact on her family’s cost of living…
    “We’re looking into solar because of it.”…
    “I don’t really know the details – whether we’re being ripped off – but it’s an expensive bill,” she said…
    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/accc-accuses-electricity-companies-of-deliberately-hurting-families/news-story/9cfa23fd9da5638bf3429d882c10ec34

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    pat

    Clean Energy Derivatives Corp? hmmm:

    16 Oct: Australian: John Durie: As Sims fumes, a new energy venture blooms
    Just as ACCC boss Rod Sims is banging the table about the impact of market dominance on the energy market, a new venture chaired by Oliver Yates is attempting to boost the amount of supply coming from energy producers in Australia.
    Clean Energy Derivatives Corp (CEDC) is raising at least $250 million to fund a new venture providing contract certainty to new entrants in the market.
    The idea is to write long-term contracts for a set amount of supply and CEDC will fund the supply under an agreement by which the venture supplies the national grid and if the price is above the contracted level then the money goes back to CEDC but if it falls below the contracted price then CEDC pays the supplier.
    The concept was used in reverse auctions run by the ACT government and it also used by the UK-government-backed Low Carbon Contracts Company…

    Sims noted in his report that some industrial users complain it is difficult to get finance to fund alternate supply in Australia because the lender has to take a risk on both the energy price and the ability of the user to stay in business.
    CEDC takes the energy risk out of the equation and encourages more supply into the market which means the industrial user has more choice than the big three integrated producers who dominate the market…

    Yates is the Macquarie banker who ran the Clean Energy Finance Corporation for the Australian government before quitting earlier this year to establish his own venture along with some work for the bank.
    He is joined at CEDC by former ACT minister Simon Corbell, long time energy executive John Smith and ***Ashleigh Antflick.
    The new fund was launched today just as the ACCC report was released…
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/opinion/john-durie/as-sims-fumes-a-new-energy-venture-blooms/news-story/2d34fcee131a50aac0db9a9138989bf9

    some history regarding Ashleigh Antflick (formerly Elementus):

    12 Jun: CanberraTimes: Kirsten Lawson: Land Development Agency decision to buy Williamsdale land for solar farm made with very little documentation
    The Land Development Agency has admitted it made a mistake when it failed to record a board decision to buy land at Williamsdale for lease to a solar farm.
    The 2014 decision, which ended a major stoush with Uriarra residents over the site of the Elementus solar farm, appears to have been made with virtually no documentation, and just one 18-month-old valuation.
    In response to a freedom of information request for documents relating to the decision to buy the block from Actew, the agency listed just five documents, none of which set out a detailed reason.

    ***It said that because one of the board members had declared a conflict of interest some of the documents “that would normally be created … do not exist in this instance”.
    The board member was Chris Purdon, and while the nature of her conflict is not disclosed, the company she owns with husband Rob Purdon was contracted by the solar farm during development.
    The agency said Ms Purdon’s conflict “necessitated in camera discussions and the recording of key decisions only.”

    It released handwritten notes of a board meeting of December 11, 2014. The scant notes only have the words “actions” and “pursue Williamsdale” – presumably recording a decision to go ahead. The final board minutes contain only a dot point saying “two confidential items were discussed in closed session and not recorded”….
    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/land-development-agency-decision-to-buy-williamsdale-land-for-solar-farm-made-with-very-little-documentation-20170531-gwh1o5.html

    June 2016: CanberraTimes: Matthew Raggatt: Tree felling continues after Elementus sells Williamsdale solar farm
    The felling of trees continues at Williamsdale ahead of construction of the capital’s third solar farm, but the company that battled opposition to its approval for three years has sold its interest.
    Elementus Energy recently sold the solar project to a subsidiary of Melbourne-based Impact Investment Group, which has contracted German company ib vogt GmbH​ to build the 11-megawatt farm…

    Elementus won the entitlement in 2013 to an ACT government feed-in tariff support payment worth a maximum $2.3 million annually for electricity delivery for 20 years…
    Elementus managing director ***Ashleigh Antflick declined to comment this week on questions about whether it had always been the company’s intention to sell before construction began…

    Founded in 2013, Impact is co-owned by Mr Lock and Small Giants, the family company of Daniel Almagor and wife Berry Liberman, and its staff includes retired AFL champion turned investment analyst Chris Judd.
    The company has said the farm will deliver enough electricity for ***3600 households from November…

    ***now 3,000 homes:

    5 Oct: CanberraTimes: Government unveils 36,000 new solar panels at Williamsdale
    by Steven Trask
    Climate Change Minister Shane Rattenbury said the long-awaited Williamsdale Solar Farm, about 20 kilometres south of Canberra’s city centre, could on its own generate enough electricity to power 3,000 homes…
    According to ACT government estimates, the solar farms could reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 1.4 million tonnes over the next 20 years…

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      pat

      note Future Super involvement:

      4 Oct 2017: RenewEconomy: Impact plans second solar investment fund as Williamsdale opens
      Williamsdale, which actually came on line earlier this year, was the first asset in the original solar fund, which attracted $100 million in less than two days from high net worth individuals, self-managed super funds and one institution, ***Future Super.

      That fund aimed to deliver a return to investestors of 10 per cent per annum, and such was its success that Impact is now looking at a second fund, with the first asset likely to be the 15MW Swan Hill solar farm in Victoria, that is building on a “merchant basis”…

      “The smartest investors and developers in the country aren’t trying to eke another few years out of old unreliable, polluting coal-fired infrastructure,” said Lane Crockett, IIG’s head of renewable energy infrastructure.
      “They are building the clean generators that will deliver reliable electricity, crucial environmental benefits, health benefits and attractive financial returns.

      Meanwhile, our investors have confidence knowing that the ACT government has committed to buying the farm’s electricity for 20 years.”…
      http://reneweconomy.com.au/impact-plans-second-solar-investment-fund-as-williamsdale-opens-40825/

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    pat

    14 Oct: UK Independent: UK climate change plan branded a ‘blueprint for under-achievement’
    Government accused of missing opportunity over climate change as ministers concede UK could still fall short of key emissions targets
    by Lizzy Buchan
    The Government also faces a threat of legal action as the strategy concedes that the UK may not meet these key targets for the late 2020s and early 2030s, despite wide-ranging measures to cut emissions…

    Activist lawyers ClientEarth, which took the Government to court over failures on air pollution, said the firm was considering legal options as the UK set to miss its emissions reductions target for 2023 to 2027 by 116 million tonnes – equivalent to the Philippines’ annual emissions…
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-government-climate-change-plan-blueprint-under-achievement-global-warming-renewable-energy-a7998701.html

    above asks all the usual suspects for a quote: Green Party’s Caroline Lucas, Lord Deben, chairman of the Committee on Climate Change, Friends of the Earth. who cares what they think?

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    Serp

    This is what happens when a country sells its infrastructure to international equity groups constituted solely to maximize profit; the National Interest has been abandoned.

    The remedy is beyond me. Simplistic ideas such as confiscation and nationalization come to mind.

    I’m sure that were we to go that way within weeks our political betters would have sold us out to the hedge funds again.

    Australia is a sad vassal state which is now languishing under the prime ministership of a man who becomes invisible whenever a problem arises.

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    pat

    all this will sound familiar:

    14 Oct: Scotsman: Scott Macnab: Insight: Can SNP deliver green energy at a fair price?
    For hard-pressed Scottish families who have seen energy bills double over the past decade, it’s not hard to see why Nicola Sturgeon’s plan to establish a new state-owned energy firm was met with some enthusiasm. The First Minister’s announcement last week that her government was to become a player in the increasingly crowded energy supply market was certainly radical and went some way further than Prime Minister Theresa May’s move to impose a price cap on bills.

    The politics of this are a marked shift to the left by both leaders to meet the seeming appetite among sections of the electorate, particularly in Scotland, for the politics of Jeremy Corbyn…

    It’s easy to see why the First Minister felt compelled to act as average domestic gas and electricity bills in Scotland have increased by up to 114 per cent and 50 per cent respectively between 2004 and 2015. And while the cost of a unit of gas is similar across Scotland and the rest of the UK, consumers in the north of Scotland pay between 8 and 9 per cent more than elsewhere in the UK.

    But leading energy experts fear the ability of politicians to tackle the vagaries of Scotland’s power bills are limited. Far greater forces are at play here. The Scottish Government has taken a lead in shifting the way the country generates and consumes its energy in an effort to “decarbonise”. Traditional “dirty” power stations fired by coal and gas, such as Longannet in Fife, are gone or on the way out. Fracking has also been banned in Scotland to address global warming concerns…READ ON
    http://www.scotsman.com/business/companies/energy/insight-can-snp-deliver-green-energy-at-a-fair-price-1-4587170

    Dave Toke is unhappy:

    14 Oct: Dave Toke’s green energy blog: How the centralised generators are trying to strangle the decentralised energy revolution in the UK
    (Dr David Toke is Reader in Energy Politics in the Department of Politics and International Relations in the University of Aberdeen)
    Just as the UK Government has stopped onshore renewables (mainly wind power and solar pv) from getting all-important long term power purchase agreements (PPAs) through the feed in tariff system (the big one being now reserved for Hinkley C), so government agencies are moving to make sure that the rules of the electricity market favour centralised generators over decentralised ones.

    The Government says that no subsidies will be available for onshore wind and solar pv. Yet it is busy doling out subsidies and altering rules to favour big power stations over decentralised renewables…
    http://realfeed-intariffs.blogspot.com.au/2017/10/how-centralised-generators-are-trying.html

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    pat

    14 Oct: UK Telegraph: Christopher Booker: Philip Hammond is being called a traitor for stating the obvious: that ‘no deal’ will be a disaster
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/14/philip-hammond-called-traitor-stating-obvious-no-deal-will-disaster/

    14 Oct: GWPF: from UK Sunday Telegraph: Christopher Booker: The True Cost Of Wind Power
    MPs arriving at Westminster Tube station have lately been presented with a huge advertisement claiming that the cost of electricity from offshore wind farms has been cut by “50 per cent over the past five years”.

    Despite the fact that this was paid for by various green lobbyists, including Greenpeace, the WWF and foreign-based owners of offshore wind farms, it seems from comments by MPs, the BBC, journalists and even our energy minister Claire Perry, that they all believe this boast.

    But The Global Warming Policy Forum has complained to the Advertising Standards Authority that the poster could hardly be more outrageously misleading. It is based only on figures relating to two offshore wind farms that haven’t even been built yet and possibly never will be.

    The official data, expertly analysed by Paul Homewood on his blog, Notalotofpeopleknowthat, show that last year we were all paying for offshore electricity through our household bills at nearly three times the going market rate, including subsidies of £1.4 billion. And this is still soaring so fast that, by 2021, we will be paying £3.1 billion a year for offshore wind energy, equating to £115 for every household in the land.

    The Government may be babbling on about putting “a cap” on electricity bills. But nothing is pushing up those bills faster than its own ever-more-insane “green” energy policies.
    That people are allowed to hide this from us – and delude those gullible MPs into the bargain – is indeed outrageous…
    (LINK – BEHIND PAYWALL)
    https://www.thegwpf.com/christopher-booker-the-true-cost-of-wind-power/

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    pat

    15 Oct: CharlotteObserver: AP: The Latest: Election tally shows Austria turning right
    Austria’s Greens have suffered huge losses in a national election, with projections showing them short of the 4 percent support needed to make it into parliament.

    Projections from three-quarters of the ballots cast in Sunday’s election had the environmentalist party securing 3.8 percent of the vote. It won 12.4 percent four years ago…
    http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/national-business/article178996611.html

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    Another Ian

    Problems in paradise

    “Over 100,000 People in Green Energy South Australia Now Receive Food Donations”

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/10/15/over-100000-people-in-green-energy-south-australia-now-receive-food-donations/

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    CrossBorder

    A belated thanks to TonyfromOz, who commented on the shattered glass countertop and recommended Mother’s Chrome polish for glass cooktops. Yes, it really does work better than the supermarket versions – thanks again!

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