JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Sea level rise hysteria can be cured by looking at tide gauge data

Scaremonger photos of inundation abound in our national news this week. Famous foreshore parks are gone, islands disappear, houses, picnic areas, racecourses, golf courses — all submerged. The water rolls in over Sydney’s Circular Quay, Melbourne’s Docklands, Brisbane Airport, Hindmarsh Island — swamped. Rooned. Today its the satellite photo, tomorrow it’ll be computer generated streetscapes; coming soon, the underwater documentary: Swimming in the Opera House.

Sea level rise, Perth, Fremantle, Australia.

This is a mocked up satellite pic of Perth, WA projecting how much ground we will lose.

If you live in these future washed out zones, email me. I’ll buy your house.

Compare the forecast two metre rise, to actual Tide Gauge Data for Fremantle since 1900 (Fremantle has the second longest record of sea level change in the Southern Hemisphere):

Sea Level rise Fremantle, Perth, Australia.

Sea Level rise Fremantle, Perth, Australia shows about a 20cm rise in 110 years.

So there has been a 20cm rise or so in 100 years. But 200cm is coming. Yeah.  (For details of the way Sea Levels around Perth Coastline change see Chris Gillhams work.)

This slow rate of sea level rise is not just a west coast thing: Sydney’s sea levels are rising at just 6.5cm per century.

The model projections future rate of change is off the scale.

Here’s that current Fremantle trend with a projected 2 metre rise to 2100 added in:

Mean Sea Level, Fremantle, Model Projections, 2100.

A 20cm rise in one hundred years is 2mm per annum. If the forecasts are right that rate must rise immediately to 22mm pa, a tenfold increase.

As it happens, the tide gauge is sinking 2 – 4mm each year (20 -40cm a century).

PARTS of Perth are sinking because too much water is being extracted from the Perth Basin, making those areas more vulnerable to sea level rises.

Professor Will Featherstone said the gauge was sinking at about 2-4mm a year due to groundwater being extracted at a faster rate than it can be replenished, causing the land to subside.

Naturally Featherstone goes on to put in the politically correct caveat, which allows his inconvenient research to be published, but if taken literally, makes no sense at all.

“If the land is subsiding, then the rate of sea level rise measured by a tide gauge appears to be larger than it actually is, which seems to be the case at Fremantle,” he said.

“However this doesn’t mean that we are at a decreased risk of sea level rise, instead we could be at an increased risk, because the land itself is sinking.”

Obviously if the seas were rising due to CO2 then subsidence is “extra-bad”. But if most of the rise so far is due to something else, who cares, the cause and effect link is busted, no disaster is coming?

The big unasked question above: Do CO2 emissions cause Fremantle to sink?

If CO2 emissions are not pushing the port of Fremantle down into the crustal plate then most of the sea-level rise recorded at Fremantle has nothing to do with our emissions. Ergo, reducing or increasing emissions will not cause sea-level rise, nor prevent it, and the forecasts of a 2,000mm rise in the next 90 years are hyperbolic guesstimates based on skill-less models and should be treated accordingly.

At this point, I fully expect someone to say that CO2 emissions indirectly reduce rainfall in South West WA and thus cause people to suck up more groundwater, which drives the local subsidence. I defy anyone to find a climate model that can predict rainfall patterns globally with any measurable skill above random chance. The causal links in the chain between your car exhaust and Fremantle-sinking grow ever longer unto an improbable multi-step narrative that lacks observational support at every point.

Secondly, the real problem in WA is “streamflow” not “rainfall”. While rainfall has fallen, there is research suggesting the decrease has more to do with forest clearance than CO2 possilby thanks to the production of cloud seeding molecules. The point that matters here is not rainfall, but the streamflow reductions which vastly outstrip the loss of rainfall. Rainfall is down in SW WA from 700mm to 600mm. But streamflow has been savaged. Down from 330GL to just 50GL. Unpacking that is another long story, for another day…

Other related posts:

 

When the warmists are at it again,
Divide their predictions by ten,
Or just use common sense,
For a hundred years hence,
To gauge what sea-level is then.

– Ruairi

REFERENCE

Featherstone W. (2015) Nonlinear subsidence at Fremantle, a long-recording tide gauge in the Southern Hemisphere, Journal of Geophysical Research, DOI: 10.1002/2015JC011295

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Sea level rise hysteria can be cured by looking at tide gauge data, 9.6 out of 10 based on 84 ratings

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244 comments to Sea level rise hysteria can be cured by looking at tide gauge data

  • #
    Annie

    You gotta be scared Jo! Where does all this contrived panic end?

    112

  • #
    Oliver K. Manuel

    Fear, the strongest, most basic emotion, is seldom removed by logical analysis, the most recent and weakest talent to appear in the evolution of humans.

    100

    • #
      Oliver K. Manuel

      Faith, humanity’s strongest weapon against fear, was cleverly destroyed by globalists with Dr. Carl von Weizsacker’s illogical phalse physic:

      https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10640850/Nuclear_Energy_Error7.pdf

      30

      • #
        Oliver K. Manuel

        If blogs like this continue to confront atomic, nuclear and particle physicists with evidence of the Nobel-prize winning errors that isolated humanity from reality, God, truth, humanity’s unalienable rights to enjoy life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness may soon be restored.

        https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2017/05/27/free-individual-returns-from-the-dead/

        20

        • #
          Craig Thomas

          Kook-le-doodle-do!

          08

          • #
            Rereke Whakaaro

            What an erudite comment, Craig. Well done!

            From my recollection, that must be one of the most lucid and deeply penetrating comments that you have ever made, on this site.

            Oliver means no harm, and it takes no effort to ignore him, if you are uninterested in his view of the world.

            All you do, by making wise-cracks like that, is to make yourself appear shallow and mean and stupid.

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            • #
              Craig Thomas

              The most important thing in science is to identify errors, not to sweep them under the carpet.
              One of Manuel’s greatest crimes against science is the massive amount of self-referencing he does – you don’t improve your science when you constantly travel within your own circle of thinking.

              01

  • #
    Richard Ilfeld

    As I sit at my computer looking at a channel leading directly to the Gulf of Mexico,
    I reflect on the satisfying increase in my property value over the last 35 years…good retirement insurance.
    It seems the vast majority who make up the real estate market are not persuaded that coastal properties wiil
    soon be inundated, nor dissuaded by the more real probability of a hurricane. The folks know.

    201

  • #
    RobK

    Hi Jo,
    Great article….but check typo, para immediately below Fremantle tide graph. I think it should be 200cm, not 2000cm.
    Cheers.

    Rob, oops. Ta. I am trying to do a bit too much at the moment. BAH!- Jo

    60

  • #

    Of all the beat-ups by the Holocene deniers, the sea level beat-up is king. The rise since the 1700s has been a dribble, and not getting any faster.

    And you still can’t paddle a canoe into Ephesus where the Romans could park fleets. And you still have to trudge to where the Claudian Invasion came ashore in England in 43AD. Same deal with the Norman Invasion landing, same deal with the sea’s retreat from Thermopylae.

    Siltation? How is a bit of silt going to hold back the resistless rise of oceans due to anthro CC? That must be some silt. Or this Modern Warming can’t match it with the old ones.

    Wake me when you can once again get an Egyptian grain ship into Old Ostia. Mind the silt.

    391

    • #
      Alfred (Melbourne)

      I believe that my kids are not being taught any real history at school so as to ensure that they have nothing to compare the media nonsense to. What applies to climate is even more applicable to the official story about the Middle East, terrorism etc.

      Here is where “Ostia Antica” is to be found today:

      http://qbusters.com.au/ida/ost1.jpg

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      • #
        OriginalSteve

        I teach my child that the govt is lying to them via cliate change myth,and the teacher is told to teach them this drivel. That way the teacher is respected ( as they should be ) and the real source of the problem is exposed.

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        • #
          Alfred (Melbourne)

          Unfortunately, my two younger ones are not at all interested in current affairs – let alone history. Like learning anything difficult (e.g. Latin & piano), children need compulsion.

          The Romans had vineyards as far north in England as Yorkshire and Northamptonshire. In recent times, vineyards were reintroduced to places like the Isle of Wight. This year, the weather has been very bad for them. One more thing, Roman soldiers only wore sandals – even in Cumbria and Germany.

          https://notjustdormice.wordpress.com/2014/07/02/vineyards-in-roman-britain/

          80

          • #
            RoHa

            Actually, we know that the Roman soldiers wore knitted socks with their sandals. Fashion fail it certainly was, but necessary in the Northern parts of the Empire.
            We also have letters from soldiers asking their family to send warm underpants. Roman Warm Period though it was, when you were standing on Hadrian’s wall on a winter night, you wanted more than just a tunic and a loincloth to keep the North Wind from your essentials.

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            • #
              PeterPetrum

              I used to live right on the site of the old Antonine’s Wall, near Falkirk in central Scotland. I can assure you, no matter how warm Yorkshire might have been in the Roman warm period, they would have needed their socks and warm undies on the ramparts there!

              60

              • #
                Alfred (Melbourne)

                We lived in Carlisle for a while and used to take visitors to see the area of the wall. Apparently, the Scots/Picts would attack the Romans while stark naked – and painted blue. Tough people. Or maybe it was just Roman fake news?

                Happily, we left just before the place got flooded – due to global warming as confirmed by that bastion of truth the New York Times.

                “In an English City, a Lesson in Climate Change”

                https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/science/carlisle-england-climate-change-flooding.html

                10

              • #
                Annie

                We were actually staying up here just out of Carlisle when those floods happened. We had to take a wide detour to get onto the M6 to head south.
                Cockermouth has often flooded too and there are marks on some buildings showing the flood heights. The Nov 2009 one was horrible and the deep chill from all the dampness that first winter was very apparent despite all the dryers in use. There was a more recent flood but the town bounces back. The people in the town are amazing.

                I’m reading a book about Carlisle atm, by Margaret Forster, and her search for her family history.

                30

            • #
              sophocles

              And Hannibal walked his elephants from Spain, over the Pyrenees into northern Italy. He lost a fair few on the way but he still arrayed elephantine cavalry against the Romans …

              40

              • #
                Iconoclast

                Interesting fact which rarely, if almost never gets mentioned, Sophocles, is that if Hannibal were to take that same route today he would never make it into northern Italy let alone win comprehensively at Cannae. One of those “receding” glaciers would be right in his path.

                30

              • #
                sophocles

                if Hannibal were to take that same route today he would never make it into northern Italy l

                I know. It was warmer back then. It might have meant Scipio Africanus wouldn’t have risen to prominence as he did—he learnt his Strategy and Tactics from Hannibal by playing Hannibal’s tactics back at him but without elephants—and the Rome vs Carthage war might have raged (coughed and spluttered maybe) on longer than it did.

                Carthage, however, was the original great “User Pays” nation, and Users were most definitely not lining up to pay for the war so Cathage would have eventually lost anyway. However, the baddies laying waste to Rome’s food basket got the Roman Treasury united behind efforts to kick him out and stomp Catharge for once and for all.

                As Dr Michael Hudson has pointed out, a Public/Private mix is far more efficient and effective. (The World Bank’s formula for PPP or Public Private Partnerships are for the Public to Pay and the Private to Profit. Bit one sided which is why they don’t work well …)

                10

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      mosomoso:
      You are relying on historical facts whereas climatologists rely on hysterical “facts”. They will claim that “this time it is different” because they argue
      CO2 causes global warming,
      CO2 is rising,
      therefore the World must be getting warmer (which is why they change thousands of temperature readings because “they must be wrong”).
      therefore the oceans are warming,
      therefore sea levels are rising,
      therefore “WE ARE ALL DOOMED” unless we go back to living in caves or mud huts and eating grass.

      People who don’t accept this are labelled as deniers and can then be ignored; although a surprising number of outspoken ‘believers’ go on to buy foreshore properties. KRudd, Flannery, Gillard are some locally, other names no doubt come to mind.

      Unfortunately those gullible enough to believe this rubbish can do a lot of economic damage.

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    • #

      Goes without saying that many old sea-sites, ports and portions thereof now lie underwater for various reasons. But I still remember how, as a hitchiker in 1971, I travelled right past Thermopylae, not realising that those mountains on the land side of the road were once hugged by the Mediterranean.

      Instead of this…
      http://flavianomega.tripod.com/spartan/Thermopylae.jpg

      You now get this…
      http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/0a/6d/63/the-modern-day-highway.jpg

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      • #
        spangled drongo

        Moso, you may recall this:

        http://jennifermarohasy.com/2013/01/king-tide-not-so-high/

        Well, I have been checking the same spot at the highest astronomical tide [HAT] each year and the same situation applies.

        Storm surges are, of course, considerably higher and always were but ~ normal barometric pressure HATs are all lower than they were in 1946.

        There are many benchmarks like this around the coastline where people I know live and I am yet to find anyone who complains about SLR.

        00

      • #
        DD More

        1 -Alexandria was founded around a small Ancient Egyptian town c. 331 BC by Alexander the Great.

        2 – http://www.unesco.org/csi/pub/papers2/alex.pdf
        Figure 1 Shows the present shoreline and Old Shore Line of Alexandria – A causeway known as the Heptastadion, was constructed to link the mainland to the island of Pharos, thus creating two remarkable harbours: Portus Magnus to the east and Eunostus to the west. Within the innermost corner of the Eastern Harbour, close to the Heptastadion, a structure known as the Kibotos was built, and functioned as a lock connecting the sea with Lake Mariout to the south. The lake was in turn connected to the River Nile by canals, thus providing a link for maritime shipping to the inland waterways of Egypt and greatly increasing the possibilities for transport and commerce.

        The causeway is now filled in and there is more dry land that sea.

        3 – The North African Plate is sliding under the European Plate, so if anything it should be sinking.

        1 + 2 + 3 = No sea level rise. But that is only after 2000 years of sea level rise.

        Time for a road/boat trip to the `Isle of the Dead’ Revisited. Time to re-re-check explorer Sir James Clark Ross 1841 mark placed at MSL

        00

    • #
      Bulldust

      Efes (Ephesus) is well worth visiting. I was there a few years ago and there have been great restoration works. I can confirm it is a fair way inland and uphill from where our cruise vessel was berthed. It was far more impressive than the ruins at Pompeii.

      30

      • #
        Bulldust

        Oddly one of the things I remember well was the Turkish stands outside the ruins selling “Genuine fake watches.” You certainly don’t want to buy the fake fake watches, genuine fakes is where it’s at.

        80

      • #
        DavidH

        Last year, on my 3rd time in Pompeii (first for wife & daughter) I found it largely in repair, some houses I’d been in were inaccessible. Still worth seeing but I went to Herculaneum for the first time and that was great: much smaller, less people!, houses more intact (some original, charred, wood still in place). Surrounding the site is some 10 or 15 metres of ash that the site was dug out from, deposited by the pyroclastic flow that buried the town.

        30

    • #
      Griffo

      Vesuvius dumped some ash around Naples 2000 years ago which must have raised the level of land ,could it happen again? Australia is looking pretty good for the next few million years,can’t say the same for NZ.

      50

      • #
        sophocles

        Oh it’s not so bad. Volcanoes, tectonic movements and earthquakes built the present NZ. The Real Estate Agents should be pleased, the Kaikoura quakes mostly raised land and there’s some fresh foreshore. It may or may not be ripe for development soon … :-)

        As soon as the next glaciation starts, there’s all the land of the submerged continent out to the northwest which will be (eventually) valuable.

        30

    • #
      Craig Thomas

      Amazingly, the *science* shows that sea level rise over the past 30 years has occurred at twice the rate of sea level rise over the last 100.

      …so where you get your strange belief that sea level rise hasn’t been increasing is a complete mystery.

      06

  • #
    AndyG55

    “Adjustments to satellite sea level data started between 2000 and 2003.. and have just kept going upwards.

    It seems to be a NOAA/AGW trait to always adjust in one direction.

    https://s19.postimg.org/p42wgwtir/comparison.jpg

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    • #
      Ted O'Brien.

      Andy. I wrote this for ABC News, but haven’t discovered yet their address. Any use?

      The Editor,
      ABC News.

      Dear Sir/Madam,

      I write in regard to Tom Wildie’s story on two metre sea level rise posted on the ABC news site at Just In at 11:33 on Tue 23rd May.

      Is this a new story, or an old story recycled?

      The story drops a couple of names, NOAA, Professor John Church, and some more obscure identities.

      After the formation of the IPCC in 1988, we were told of a danger of dramatic rises in the level of the oceans as polar ice melted caused by CO2 emissions.

      For the first ten years the incoming data seemed to support this alarm as temperatures seemed to rise. Then it stopped.

      Remember, rising sea levels was the measure of the predicted catastrophe, with the call of “by 2100”. In 1988 2100 was 112 years away. Today the same call is just 83 years away.

      In the intervening 29 years there has been no significant change in the rise of sea levels. The catastrophe just is not happening. We were warned of 50 million climate refugees by 2005. There was no change in the climate to make any climate refugees. Even now when more than a quarter of their “by 2100” has elapsed.

      NOAA publishes sea level data from tide gauges around the world. Sydney’s Fort Denison gauge is listed, one of the world’s best and longest records, showing a remarkably steady rise of 0.65 mm a year, about two and a half inches a century in the old measures. But NOAA stopped publishing the incoming data for Fort Denison about 2010 or 2011. Why? They continue to publish other data. Is this “homogenisation” of data by omission? Did they stop publishing because Fort Denison’s data does not support the AGW narrative?

      The Fort Denison website tells us that the tide gauge is “cleaned and recalibrated” monthly. Obviously we need to clean the barnacles away on a regular basis, but what is this “recalibration”? Fort Denison hasn’t moved. Have they moved the reference point?

      Would you please find out for us and let us know, 1. why did NOAA stop publishing Fort Denison’s data in their tidesandcurrents chart about 2010, and 2. exactly what does “recalibration” of the Fort Denison tide gauge mean, and when did this practice of ‘recalibration” commence.

      In 2017 this story looks like old, now in the light of newer information, “fake” news.

      So why was it published just an hour or so after the news of the Manchester bombing, when I and no doubt at least tens of thousands of others were searching for the latest on that tragedy? Had it been waiting in the wings for an opportunity to gain high exposure?

      FYI, a glance at the NOAA tidesandcurrents data shows that, as you would expect, the great river deltas are sinking. The east coast of the USA has sea level rises above average and California on the west coast an average rise of about six inches a century, a bit less than the oft quoted eight inches globally, while Australia shows much less than average rises.

      251

    • #
      Ted O'Brien.

      It needs to be remembered, that no matter what the satellites say, it’s at the tide gauges that the flooding happens (if it does).

      51

  • #
    tom0mason

    [Borrowed from GWPF report 15]
    In general, the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), and government planning and management authorities, use the unqualified and ambiguous term ‘sea-level’ when discussing this issue. In nearly all instances, this usage refers to global average sea-level.
    This (rightly) leads to great confusion in the public mind.
    First, because most people think that when government scientists or ministers talk about sea-level change they are referring to what is actually happening on the nearest coastline rather than discussing a global statistic.

    Second, and after people have had the distinction between local and global sea-level explained to them, they are (rightly) puzzled as to why a planning agency would use a notional global average value rather than direct measurements made at nearby coastal locations of interest. After all, houses do not have their heating and air-conditioning designed to cope with the global average temperature range, but with the known (and measured) local temperature range; why should coastal planning and sea-level matters be any different?

    As concluded by Wunsch et al. (2007) with respect to the satellite measurements:

    At best, the determination and attribution of global mean sea level change lies at the very edge of knowledge and technology. The most urgent job would appear to be the accurate determination of the smallest temperature and salinity changes that can be determined with statistical significance, given the realities of both the observation base and modeling approximations. Both systematic and random errors are of concern, the former particularly, because of the changes in technology and sampling methods over the many decades, the latter from the very great spatial and temporal variability… It remains possible that the data base is insufficient to compute mean sea level trends with the accuracy necessary to discuss the impact of global warming–as disappointing as this conclusion may be. The priority has to be to make such calculations possible in the future.

    Wunsch et al. (2007)

    90

  • #
    Phantor48

    So that’s where the hockey stick went!!!

    80

  • #
    RobK

    I think it must be very difficult to correlate sea level rise with anything if you cannot measure the relative movement of the oceans floors(sea beds). Just as abstraction of ground water from Perth’s sedimentary coastal plain can impact it’s relative level, so must big movements of the sea floor that cause tsunami, along with any more gradual upheaval and silting of the ocean. These would need to be measured to the millimetre everywhere….big job.

    90

  • #
    CheshireRed

    I suspect they’re lying.

    131

    • #
      el gordo

      Yes they are lying and they have no shame.

      “With ‘business as usual’ emissions, the questions are when, rather than if, we will cross a two-metre sea-level rise,” Professor Church said. “This scenario would result in major catastrophes and displace many tens of millions of people around the world.”

      121

    • #
      el gordo

      Here is another example of fibbing.

      In 2009 Phil Jones said of the pause in temperature: “….the ‘no upward trend’ has to continue for a total of 15 years before we get worried.”

      A few years later (when his time was up) he said 16 years was not significant because pauses of such length had always been expected.

      20

  • #
    Dennis

    The last time I can remember a report about the Sydney Opera House sinking on its foundations was 1 April a few years after construction was completed.

    60

  • #
    el gordo

    ‘….measurements at Sydney between 2005 and 2014 show the tide gauge site is sinking at a rate of 0.49mm/yr, leaving just 0.16mm/yr of the overall relative rise as representing global sea-level change. Indeed, the rate of rise at Fort Denison, and globally, has been decreasing for the past 50 years.

    ‘Despite this high-quality and unalarming data, it is surprising that some east coast councils have implemented coastal planning regulations based on the computer projections of the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.’

    The late Bob Carter in the Oz 2014

    170

    • #
      Dennis

      And insurance premiums have risen accordingly.

      110

    • #

      My late colleague Bob was right. In Queensland, the ludicrous RCP 8.5 rise of 800mm by 2100 was mandated in the State Planning Policy. Most people I know in the construction industry (along with anyone who goes fishing or lives close to the shore) know this stuff is nonsense. I objected to it in 2013, and it was fairly promptly removed. That was encouraging, but I have the uncomfortable feeling that I may be the only person who lodged an objection. It was put back in again in 2015.

      120

  • #
    Dennis

    By the way, you know when Euro Standards has lost the plot when a motor vehicle engineer and Bosch agent tells you that the exhaust system for an Audi SUV retails for A$18,000 and has an almost zero effect on reducing engine emissions. And that the Exhaust Gas Reticulation valve is linked to the computer to ensure that nobody blanks it off as they used to do a few years ago to avoid the clogging with exhaust particles that effected engine performance in diesels.

    This is another example of climate change madness, we both agreed.

    121

    • #
      Willard

      $18 000 for an exhaust system Dennis? Maybe Mercedes Benz, Fiat Chrysler and now GM are facing Dieselgate lawsuits not for excessive emissions but rather excessive cost of spare parts.
      Best to stick to electric vehicles Dennis.

      215

      • #
        Dennis

        Willard, the last time I asked you for an electric equivalent to a mid size SUV all you came up with was a monster truck hybrid that had towing capacity lower than the SUV diesel and load capacity lower than a smaller Mitsubishi Triton crew cab 4WD light truck.

        I hate to think what the price of that monster would be if it ever reaches the market place.

        Transport vehicles is another target of extreme green stupidity intent on blindly following the man-made global warming fraud and ignoring that it is a political and insider, crony capitalist, plot for furthering socialism aims and objectives with fellow traveller crony capitalist socialists making more money.

        Read about Maurice Strong who came up with the natural climate change theme.

        Electric vehicles, like solar systems and wind turbines, are not the solution, they are all a big part of our problems.

        70

        • #
        • #
          Willard

          $52K Dennis, and when the savings in refueling, maintenance and parts are factored in the incentive to purchase is there, the big 3 in the US have two choices, build hybrid and electric pick up trucks or sit on their hands and get swamped, Ford has a new CEO for this very reason, expect F series trucks to be built in petrol, hybrid and electric.

          115

          • #
            Dennis

            That’s very strange Willard, from a manufacturing and engineering excellence point of view if hybrid was the best there would be no other options, would there.

            No diesel, the European Greens not long ago gave diesels the thumbs up for fuel efficiency.

            Oh well, in a land where all electric Tesla is heavily subsided by US taxpayers but only a toy for wealthy people who knows what will happen next.

            91

            • #
              Willard

              The U.S. pickup truck market is huge, plenty of room to transition through 3 options, 4 if you count Diesel.

              216

              • #
                AndyG55

                “The U.S. pickup truck market is huge”

                Yep, and EVERY one of them is fossil fuelled. :-)

                EV market…. well the Ford F series outsells ALL EVs by 7 to 1, just on its own !!!

                92

              • #
                AndyG55

                Speaking on “own”

                How’s your V8 going, shilly ?

                42

          • #
            toorightmate

            Willard,
            About 9 years ago Australia had a PM who told us that we would all be driving hybrids by now.
            He was much like you – a d*ckhead.

            112

            • #
              Willard

              Keep up with the insults Toorightmate, it’s important you let it off your chest.

              311

              • #
                TdeF

                Also that’s get if off your chest. Letting something off is a different matter.

                50

              • #
                AndyG55

                Maybe you can use the insult to get up the guts to actually buy an EV !!

                Or not..

                plenty of mindless yapping

                but very little action to back it up.. hey shilly !!

                82

            • #
            • #
              David Maddison

              I love my six litre (366 cubic inch) V8. It is remarkably economical if you drive normally.

              43

              • #
                Dennis

                Even more economical if it was equipped with injected LPG dual fuel David, and lower emissions on LPG.

                You might recall the Howard Coalition government after the Kyoto Conference made LPG conversions cheaper with subsidies for installation and equipment. LPG is a resource Australia does not take enough advantage of as a fuel.

                Most modern petrol engines have hardened valves and valve seats to cope with the extra minor wear from LPG however, Flashlube have an upper cylinder lubrication kit that is not expensive and meters lubricating fluid in with LPG and petrol regardless of which fuel is being used.

                20

          • #
            mobihci

            are you saying there is a SUV EV that does 550km range for $52k au?

            what?

            you mean the mitsubishi hybrid with 50km ev range that would end up costing more to run over long trips than the diesel version because of the size of the small charge ICE?

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            • #
              Willard

              No, you’re saying that Mobi.

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                mobihci

                sorry, the way i read it was that you were saying there is an EV SUV for 52k au, when range was mentioned, you claimed numbers of 550km. so, what are you talking about?

                i went looking recently for a viable EV, and found none that would 1 have the range and 2 be cheaper than lpg/diesel to run. you say there is one available for 52k? other than the 200k+ tesla

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              • #
                Willard

                As far a combo of range/price no chance in Australia until the end of this year Mobi, why would an independant car dealer want to sell you a car that needs minimal servicing and very few parts to repair/replace? They can make more profit out of selling one $18 000 Audi replacement exhaust system than they can from selling 3 electric vehicles……in New Zealand on the other hand it doesn’t appear to be a problem.

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              • #
                mobihci

                why make excuses? you are using your claim that these things are viable as in available to use and do as they say they do. they do not, this bs just keeps on going and going for how many years. a decade ago it was cheaper to buy an EV than it is now, and they are no more range viable now than they were then.

                hybrids? good for city, BAD for freeway, they cost more to run than conventional diesels, so yes there is a use for them in the current market

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              • #
                Willard

                1.There are viable replacement EVs for Audi SUVs right now, anyone who has an issue with a $18 000 replacement exhaust has an alternative.

                2.hybrids? good for city, BAD for freeway, they cost more to run than conventional diesels, so yes there is a use for them in the current market,

                this above statement from you Mobi is incorrect, they do not cost more to run than convential diesels.

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              • #
                AndyG55

                “There are viable replacement EVs”

                Well… show us your EV then !!

                The one you have replace your REAL car with.

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              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                All my friends who are into AGW have SUV’s and big cars….i have been driving Suzuki one litre cars for a more than two decades by far and the Suzuki Alto i drive now can fit 3 meter posts etc into the back and no problemo….who needs an SUV? or an EV….good grief…

                40

              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                the arguments on both sides of the fence are super soft…..just get a 1 litre hatchback any kind and watch the wallet grow in size….sure ….some of them including the Suzuki Alto could do with some CO2 inflated airbags…

                30

              • #
                Dennis

                Willard for most owners the complete exhaust system for an Audi would not be required for replacement, at worst it would need mufflers but that should not be within 200,000 Kilometres and probably considerably more life than that.

                The point I made was what a Bosch trained engineer told me, an $18K complete exhaust system that delivers a minute emissions saving gain. Another example of extreme greenism.

                40

          • #
            Bobl

            Not much saving, diesel costs about 30c per kWh in a turbo diesel – electricity costs around 25c per kwh so you save around 5c per kwh takes a lot of kwh to make up the price difference! now if electricity was 6c instead of pushed to 25c by the ret then EVs might make sense.

            BTW take the tax away from the diesel to put electricity and diesel on a level playing field and diesel would be just 20c per kw. Cheaper than electricity.

            40

            • #
              Dennis

              And let’s not overlook the rising electricity prices based on so called renewable energy target.

              And future recharging costs.

              10

      • #
        yarpos

        Yes of course, select from one of the wide range of electric SUVs with 700km range and independent off road charging capability. Fantasyland is full of them, such a viable option its amazing the roads arent swamped with the critters.

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        • #
          Willard

          Ah so now there are electric SUVs being sold with a range of 550kms you need one with 700kms Yarpos? so when the current cells are replaced with 2170s and the range goes up to 900kms you’ll suddenly make 1000kms as your benchmark. Of course every Audi SUV driver makes weekly trips to Birdsville without stopping, that is until the 60 000km warranty runs out and he has to fork out $18 000 for a new exhaust.

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          • #
            Dennis

            Willard, at least a hybrid has a reasonable range of travel between refuelling stops.

            But last time I read about the Toyota Prius (or is it Pius drivers?) when the battery pack dies the car has to be refitted at the Toyota factory and at the time I read about it the cost was $13,000 including road transport Sydney to Melbourne return.

            Oh what a feeling!

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            • #
              Willard

              http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2011/02/the-200-000-mile-question-how-does-the-toyota-prius-hold-up/index.htm

              I think you need to reevaluate your source of information Dennis, nowhere near $13,000 for a replacement Prius more like $4000 at most, by the way the pack will outlast most conventional cars, unlike the $18 000 replacement exhaust system for an Audi SUV…..oh what a bad feeling for Audi owners.

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              • #
                Dennis

                I’m happy that I am not an owner of an Audi/VW Willard [wink].

                And even happier that I do not own a Prius with that expensive battery pack. My builder son has many complaints about the service life of battery power tools that unless remain on charge when not being used die very quickly.

                Imagine that Prius battery pack in grandma’s bowling club and shopping transport car.

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              • #
                TdeF

                How Much Does a Catalytic Converter Replacement Cost?
                The average cost for an Audi Q7 Catalytic Converter Replacement is between $1555 and $1806. Labor costs are estimated between $123 and $156 while parts are priced between $1432 and $1650. Estimate does not include taxes and fees.

                So where is this $18,000?

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              • #
                Wayne Job

                That exhaust BS I believe it or not am an engineer and if I had an exhaust leak I would go to an exhaust shop that can bend pipe and weld. For a few hundred dollars you can keep an exhaust going forever. That is an insurance BS write off price.

                60

              • #
                AndyG55

                So shilly-willy. Which EV do YOU drive as your only car.

                Or are you just having yet another baseless and hypocritical, Chihuahua type yap!!

                43

              • #
                Willard

                Where is the $18 000 TdeF? Ask Dennis, that cost wouldn’t be a surprise, wonder how much a gearbox/engine/fuel injection repair is?

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              • #
                TdeF

                Obviously the facts are irrelevant. So what are you doing making any comments?

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          • #
            James Bradley

            Dullard,

            Fun fact on range, and recharge capacity of modern electric vehicles:

            Over 98% of electric vehicles manufactured are still on the road today – the rest actually made it home…

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            • #
              Willard

              You’re full of fun facts James, that’s not all you’re full of.

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            • #
              Griffo

              Love the play on words,what about dillard,or dullbert,still we shouldn’t be indulging in ad hominems. We should be countering with reasoned discussion, hard when you are dealing with Willard.

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            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              I did a bit of research, as one does, and an interesting fact emerged concerning the current generation of EV batteries.

              They don’t slowly loose their ability to hold a charge, as most lead-acid batteries do. They are capable of holding full charge for multiple charging cycles.

              Then, after an indeterminate number of charges, they refuse to recharge at all.

              Bit of a bummer if you happen to be in the middle of the Nullarbor, when your batteries die.

              With a petrol or diesel engine, you can carry a can of fuel in the boot. I wonder if EV drivers need to fill their boot with spare batteries. Or bottles of water, if they are in the Nullarbor.

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                Willard

                Hi Rereke

                I’ll call that out as alternative facts, provide a link please.

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              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                A solar panel on the roof and a Super Capacitor battery would fix that if one is prepared to wait a few hours while the solar panel brings the Super Capacitor up to charge.

                “Replacing My Car Battery with Capacitors! 12V BoostPack Update “

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3x_kYq3mHM

                30

              • #
                sophocles

                bit quick on the “false facts” willard. Here’s a few facts from cleantechnicna about lithium battery lifetime and the things (some to be avoided) which affect battery life.

                Then you could try taking the temperature of the highway crossing the Nullarbor. Best done with a mercury thermometer from an electric car.

                Rereke may have some good points.

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      • #
        AndyG55

        What type of EV do you have as youronly car, shilly ?

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        • #
          AndyG55

          NOPTED, yet again that shilly-willy WILL NOT answer a basic question.

          Seems that he can YAP the YAP, but will not walk the walk. !!

          53

          • #
            Willard

            You’re really keen to know if and/or what EV I drive aren’t you Andy? I recently read a book recently titled “how to keep an id**t in suspense” , it’s working a treat.
            [That is enough Willard. We have been very tolerant of your hijacking of threads. But, if you can't comment in relation to the subject matter of the thread, then make no comment at all] Fly

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            • #
              bullocky

              ‘I recently read a book recently titled “how to keep an id**t in suspense”’

              Peer review it, did you Willard?

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            • #
              AndyG55

              Yep, showing you up as a hypocritical yapping shill.

              Let me guess.. you own a V8. ! :-)

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      • #
        Dennis

        Dieselgate Willard – don’t you mean manufacturers handicapped by Euro Standards cunningly crafted to drive diesels off roads in the EU?

        The same diesels the EU Gnomes recommended for their superior fuel efficiency not many years ago.

        History of Handicapping;

        1) The world must stop using leaded petrol (trillions of dollars cost of oil refinery changes, engine management, etc)

        2) The world must switch to more economical diesels, but first remove sulphur, more enormous compliance costs.

        3) The world must switch back to unleaded petrol vehicles (too bad about the owners who chose diesel).

        4) No, now the world must go hybrid with petrol engine (too bad about the new trillions of dollars of cost).

        5) But electric would be so much better (no fossil fuel filling stations within, say, eight to ten years in extreme Green lands).

        So far there appears to be no way out of so called renewable energy so little or no farmland for food production coming our way, unless we switch to eating human greens.

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        • #
          Willard

          Diesel gate- engineers smart enough to build a cheat device but not smart enough to built a cleaner engine, or maybe it was cheaper to build a cheat device, in the long term it’s costing them in lawsuits and fines. I wonder if that $18 000 Audi exhaust actually does the job intended? Or maybe it’s over inflated price is to help pay the Dieselgate fines.
          [What does this comment have to do with the subject matter of the thread?] Fly

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          • #
            Dennis

            You didn’t read my original comment properly Willard.

            “By the way, you know when Euro Standards has lost the plot when a motor vehicle engineer and Bosch agent tells you that the exhaust system for an Audi SUV retails for A$18,000 and has an almost zero effect on reducing engine emissions. And that the Exhaust Gas Reticulation valve is linked to the computer to ensure that nobody blanks it off as they used to do a few years ago to avoid the clogging with exhaust particles that effected engine performance in diesels.”.

            30

            • #
              Willard

              I read and understood it Dennis, this stuff has been going on since the first time some smarty pants came up with the “lets make it cleaner” idea many decades ago, 1. It doesn’t work as designed, 2. It only works when the motor is serviced correctly and 3. As soon as the motor gets high mileage under its belt the anti pollution equipment probably compounds the issue.

              29

              • #
                Dennis

                Willard if Greens had common sense they would have worked out long ago that by injecting LPG into Diesel fuel and burning both, 20/80 is a good ratio I learnt from personal experience using such a system for years, then combustion rises from around 80% to at least 95% resulting in lower particle emissions and a corresponding increase in power.

                And far cheaper than all the EGR valve and exhaust system modifications, and other Euro requirements for a better result.

                And because of the ratio only a small LPG tank is necessary, mine was 35 litres which was more than enough for a couple of refuelling stops for Diesel. And easily tucked away under the vehicle mounted onto the chassis on a 4WD or other truck. In a car takes up minimal luggage compartment area, unlike the larger tanks taxi cabs install.

                Another interesting past and before unleaded Petrol was introduced at enormous cost to consumers was a muffler that had inside expanded metal mesh that created a barrier that exhaust gases passed through and Lead particles dropped to the bottom of the muffler. A far less expensive solution to lower Lead from fuel exhaust.

                The same design but with larger expanded metal mesh is used to remove Coal dust particles in power station boilers to reduce grit erosion of the boiler tubes. Well was used when I was last aware of the system.

                Often the best answer is the simple answer, but extreme Greenism always offers the most expensive impositions.

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              • #
                toorightmate

                Dennis,
                Willard and “common sense” don’t fit in the same sentence.

                62

              • #
                ROM

                I see Willard is right into his usual thread jacking again!

                82

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                Yes ROM, tedious isn’t it.

                Mind you I am guilty of having some fun, by poking a metaphorical stick into his cage, every time he has appeared. It appears to encourage him.

                But such things get tiresome, and I can only put up with bad salesmen for so long.

                I doubt that he understands the physics, chemistry, and engineering involved in his latest object-of-desire, and therefore has no concept of the shortfall in expectations in the current generation of EV’s.

                EV’s will only become a realistic option when they can do everything a petrol, or diesel, vehicle can do, and do it cheaper, and safer, and more efficiently. Then, and only then, will he be on a winner.

                82

              • #
                Willard

                “I doubt that he understands the physics, chemistry, and engineering involved in his latest object-of-desire, and therefore has no concept of the shortfall in expectations in the current generation of EV’s.”

                Interesting quote above Rereke, how’s that 50% average grid transmission loss theory going for you?

                38

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                That wasn’t a quote. It was my opinion. I think we need to add English reading comprehension to the list of things that Willard doesn’t understand.

                For your information, and edification; the “50% average grid transmission loss theory” wasn’t my quote.

                You are obviously having trouble, trying to keep up with your own trolling, which is an epic fail.

                The only thing I pointed out, was the length of transmission lines in Australia, which would obviously have greater impedance losses, than, say, transmission losses in Rhode Island. [I am waiting to see if Willard can add Geography to his "duh", list].

                So purely because I like to say it:

                EV’s will only become a realistic option when they can do everything a petrol, or diesel, vehicle can do, and do it cheaper, and safer, and more efficiently.

                That is Economics, Willard: something else to add to your “duh”, list.

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              • #
                Willard

                So a 50% average grid transmission loss wasn’t your quote but your opinion, okay thanks for clearing that up Rereke.

                33

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                Yes Willard, the quote was made on an earlier thread, but not by me – go look for it, and then apologise for saying it was my quotation.

                And my opinion, that you have little understanding of the physics, chemistry, and engineering involved, in EV technology, still stands. It does so, because I have seen no evidence to the contrary. You have no depth of understanding behind your comments. They are nothing but wind.

                [And that will be the end of this discussion. It is way off topic for this thread, which is about hysteria over apparent (but not real) sea-level-rise.] Fly

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            • #
              David Maddison

              This is a 1969 US Patent for a muffler designed to remove lead from the exhaust stream. As I understand it, the manufacture of lead free fuel uses much more oil than simply boosting the octane rating of fuel with tetraalkyl lead compounds. Using leaded fuel and then removing the lead with a muffler of this nature would have been more environmentally friendly. But most green “solutions” are expensive and ultimately bad for the environment.

              https://www.google.com.na/patents/US3563029

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      • #
        Angry

        electric vehicles are CRAP !

        Nobody with a brain would purchase or drive one !!

        12

  • #

    As Michael Mann would have put it:
    “There are now dozens of hockey sticks and they all come to the same basic conclusion. The recent warming does appear to be unprecedented as far back as we can go. But even if we didn’t have that evidence, we would still know that humans are warming the planet, changing the climate and that represents a threat if we don’t do something about it.”
    Professor Michael Mann
    Pennsylvania State University
    Expertise: Past climate change, atmospheric dynamics, oceanography
    https://youtu.be/-x2afzvRbeg

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  • #

    For a look at some more tidal charts from WAs falling sea levels, go here.

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    Frank

    Jo,
    You are making progress by admitting that sea levels are rising, well done.

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    • #

      You however are not doing too well, since I have been saying this for years.

      The Handbook for Trolls recommends using the word “admitted” in comments as it falsely implies some “guilt”. You will get your first troll-badge for deceptive language soon. Keep working.

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    • #
      Konrad

      Sea levels rising? Only recently and only at 2~3mm pert year, a rate that has been dropping since any significant human CO2 emissions. At the time Egyptians were building pyramids, sea levels were far higher.

      Take a bush walk around beautiful Middle Harbour in Sydney. Observe the erosion and undercutting well above the current high tide mark. It’s not all wind erosion and salt spalling.
      http://imgur.com/a/ZgS6W

      And higher in the bush?
      http://imgur.com/a/oepBV
      Here we see shells being washed down from higher elevations, but this is still 5m above low tide level and Sydney only has a 2m tidal range. Could it be an ancient aboriginal midden? No. Most of the cone shells are far too small to be food source.

      And in the crevices in harder iron laden sandstone, still 4m above current low tide level?
      http://imgur.com/a/obuTl
      If sheltered from wind and rain, their ghosts are still there. Recently exposed. Paper thin. They got there thousands of years ago.

      Just a mere 3000 years ago, sea levels in Sydney were almost 1.75m higher than today. Humans didn’t cause the dramatic rise 18,000~20,000 years ago that created the Barrier Reef. Humans didn’t cause the the sudden sea level fall starting 7000 years ago that sculpted Sydney’s beautiful foreshore. And Humans aren’t responsible for the current 2~3mm per year sea level rise we have documented since the end of the Little Ice Age.

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      • #
        Glen Michel

        Yeah yeah, but it’s attributed to increasing levels( man- made) of Carbon, ie Carbon Dioxide.That’s the conventional wisdom. What else could it be? Sarc/ off.

        10

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      Sea level rise is only an issue if it happens everywhere at the same time.

      When it doesn’t happen everywhere at the same time, we refer to it as, “tides”.

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      • #
        The Deplorable Vlad the Impaler

        A bit of a technicality, Rereke:

        A change in sea level taking place everywhere at the same time (or approximately the same time) is called a ‘eustatic’ change.

        Any local change, other than the diurnal tidal cycle is called ‘isostatic’. Local changes are most often due to tectonic influences (e.g., withdrawal of fresh groundwater near a shore, causing local subsidence in the land surface).

        A case here in the States is the Mississippi Delta. As the river runs into the Gulf of Mexico, and dumps the entrained sediments, the mass of the delta is increasing, and causing part of the coastal area to “sink” from the increased load. Of course, the CAGW alarmists point to it as de-facto proof of sea-level-rise (from melting Arctic and Antarctic ice, doncha know) even though it is a relatively localized phenomenon.

        Hope that helps; I’m sure there’s local examples around your neck of the woods (or ‘currents in the Pacific’, as it were), but I cannot think of any off the top of my head.

        Regards,

        Vlad, the Mostest Deplorablest of Impalers (and thanks to Dr. DeHavilland, His Lordship and Mightiest Harry TwinOtter, for the moniker!!!!!)

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        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          Well, thank you Vlad. I stand most humbly corrected.

          50

          • #
            The Deplorable Vlad the Impaler

            You are most welcome. And, I apologize for the tardy response; we had our “Memorial Day” holiday here in the States, and I took two of the grandkids out to the middle of No Where, Wyoming (the Red Desert, actually), and we were completely cut off from all civilization (including cell phones!!!!!! P.T.L.!!!!!).

            As I stated, it is just a bit of a technicality. I think you could find some decent, simple treatments of the subject if you searched on the term, ‘sequence stratigraphy’. As any geologist will tell you, sea level changing (rapidly or slowly) is just part of the norm. These CAGW-alarmists, who become apoplectic over a change in sea level, display glaring ignorance of the past.

            But for them, there is no history prior to their own existence: temperatures have only changed in the past century (give or take a century); prior to that, the previous 4,599,999,099 years, the temperature was ALWAYS the exact same, never changing, always constant; as was sea level, and everything else.

            How they manage such a myopic view is beyond me.

            My best regards to you,

            Vlad, the Mostest Deplorablest Impalerest

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    • #
      AndyG55

      1.4 to 1.7 mm per year..

      PANIC TIME. !!!

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    • #
      Craig Thomas

      Well, Frank, as the data accumulates it does get harder and harder to deny that sea levels are rising…although that doesn’t stop many of the commenters here who seem obsessed with believing the opposite of what is really happening.

      06

      • #

        Frank foot in the mouth statement: “Jo,You are making progress by admitting that sea levels are rising, well done.”

        Craig: “Well, Frank, as the data accumulates it does get harder and harder to deny that sea levels are rising…although that doesn’t stop many of the commenters here who seem obsessed with believing the opposite of what is really happening.”

        Well Craig AND Frank, evidence accumulates that you two are indeed dishonest and stupid, since Jo stated right here in THIS blog post:

        “This slow rate of sea level rise is not just a west coast thing: Sydney’s sea levels are rising at just 6.5cm per century.that there has been sea level rise”

        and,

        “A 20cm rise in one hundred years is 2mm per annum. If the forecasts are right that rate must rise immediately to 22mm pa, a tenfold increase.”

        Since not one skeptic said there is no sea level rise globally,locally in some places sure, but backed up with official data.

        What skeptics react to are the idiotic hyperbolic statements,that never matches with reality,such as this one also from this blog post you didn’t read:

        “Scaremonger photos of inundation abound in our national news this week. Famous foreshore parks are gone, islands disappear, houses, picnic areas, racecourses, golf courses — all submerged. The water rolls in over Sydney’s Circular Quay, Melbourne’s Docklands, Brisbane Airport, Hindmarsh Island — swamped. Rooned. Today its the satellite photo, tomorrow it’ll be computer generated streetscapes; coming soon, the underwater documentary: Swimming in the Opera House.”

        You and Frank comments in the thread so far are so lacking,that Jo’s post stands without even a scratch on it. If you really have something beyond stupid strawman or lies to offer,go right ahead,otherwise stuff it!

        10

        • #
          Craig Thomas

          I think what neither yourself, your thumbs-upperers, nor your host appear to be able to grasp is that a long-term linear trend is not *the* story.
          “2mm/year” over 100 years tells you nothing about the fact that over the early part of that record, the rate was lower, while the latter part of that record contains a higher rate of rise. Hence the complete silliness in the linear trend that has been applied to the graph in the article.

          As you can see, the rate of rise is *really* starting to shift into a higher gear now:
          http://www.columbia.edu/~mhs119/SeaLevel/SL+Nino34.png

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  • #
    TdeF

    Just keep moving Manne’s hockey stick along. It must be true someday. So far the Hockey stick has been moved 30 years and there is no perceptible impact on temperature or sea level. In that time no climate model has correctly predicted past temperatures and looking back 30 years, no one had the following thirty years right either.

    What is really interesting is the correlation between politics and Global Warming and Green activism. Not for the first time in history, you can pick someone’s Science entirely from their politics. That makes it political science, not rational science. Here in Melbourne in a lifetime, I have not seen any significant movement of the ocean and looking at the now older structures at the Port, not since they were built a hundred and fifty years ago. Apart from erosion and regular movement of sand bars, the beaches also look exactly as they did. Looks like we are all doomed.

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    • #
      Yonniestone

      It’s all a bit of a letdown really, I was going to use the “death by a thousand microns” pun but even that doesn’t measure up.

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    • #
      Craig Thomas

      Every reconstruction has confirmed that Mann’s “hockey stick” conforms with the facts. Temperature is increaing and sea levels are rising. Plain facts. Deal with them, finally…

      05

      • #
        tom0mason

        Craig Thomas,
        utter BS, John Reid very much disagrees with your ignorant assumption.

        See http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0958305X16686447?journalCode=eaea& to start your eduction in real mathematics from a scientist.

        30

        • #
          Craig Thomas

          I made no assumption, I reported the facts – every published scientific reconstruction agrees with the shape of Mann’s “hockey stick”.
          John Reid published something in a non-science pseudo-journal and didn’t even pretend to look at the long term time series and is therefore not even relevant to this topic.

          Mind you, is this JOhn Reid thsame Joyhn Reid who said,
          “a humane way to reduce the population might be to put something in the water, a virus that would be specific to the human reproductive system and would make a substantial proportion of the population infertile.”
          ?

          If so, I am warming to him already…

          01

        • #
          Craig Thomas

          Good Grief.
          I just read John Reid’s paper – he removes an arbitrary signal from the global temperature data (in the process removing the positive trend), then analyses the remaining data and declares, “there is no trend”.

          I’m suprised that even a comedy journal like E&E would publish something that ridiculous.

          01

  • #
    Ruairi

    When the warmists are at it again,
    Divide their predictions by ten,
    Or just use common sense,
    For a hundred years hence,
    To gauge what sea-level is then.

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    • #
      Annie

      Brilliant Ruairi! Thankyou, I’m glad I didn’t miss it after scrolling down rapidly to avoid all the troll hijacking. I wish people wouldn’t engage at length with trolls…it’s a waste of space.

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    John of Cloverdale, WA, Australia

    Thanks Jo. I was putting together something myself to debunk these exaggerated claims, but you have saved the research time. It would be nice if you could get onto one of the local, or, national radio/TV stations to spread the truth (versus alarmist) speculation about Climate Change, rainfall and sea level changes.
    JB (Geophysicist).

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    John of Cloverdale, WA, Australia

    Whoops! Please excuse the grammatical errors, I should have proof read.

    20

  • #
    PeterS

    Well we might ask the flat earthers why the earth is about to sink faster to match their forecasts of extraordinary sea levels rises. Seriously though I find all this fear mongering by the global warming alarmists simply a sign of desperation to try and keep alive their scam. It might still work in the medium term thanks to the biased MSM and devious governments who are desperate for more revenues to help avoid the coming pension crisis. I see the rising total US pension liabilities of about $5 trillion a far more serious threat to the world than any predicted sea level rise. Apparently government pensions destroyed the Roman Empire economy.

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      Bobl

      Yes I find it odd too, frankly I love to point out that us engineers solved the sea rise problem thousands of years ago with a little invention called piles of dirt. These days the Chinese build new islands out of piles of dirt. The 1.7mm per annuum needs perspective, a grain of sand is around 0.5mm so beating sea level rise means depositing a layer of sand on a beach 3 grains high each year!

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      • #
        AndyG55

        The ocean will do that all by itself. !!

        22

        • #
          Bobl

          In 10 minutes, this is the point I’m making to put sea level rise in perspective, the sea level rise is about the same that a stiff on shore breeze will deposit in 10 minutes. In a year my dog can pile up enough dirt to offset 100 years of climate change sea rise if I give him enough bone to dig for!

          Perspective! a layer 3 grains of sand high, in a whole year. This is why climate change sea rise is harmless because even if it did happen there are simple and very cheap solutions engineers have used successfully for centuries. Even on those islands they constantly carp about pump sand like the Chinese did and make your island any size you want

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  • #
    Mark M

    19-MAY-2017

    Sea level as a metronome of Earth’s history

    https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2017-05/udg-sla051817.php

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    Peter C

    A recent article here in a peer reviewed journal takes aim at the sea level rise nonsense.

    THE ISLE OF THE DEAD BENCHMARK, THE SYDNEY, FORT DENISON TIDE GAUGE AND THE IPCC AR5 CHAPTER 13 SEA LEVELS REVISITED
    Albert Parker
    http://agro.icm.edu.pl/agro/element/bwmeta1.element.agro-0b25339b-340d-482c-b1c3-71cef1ddce00/c/10.pdf

    Albert Parker finds that there are interannual and multi decadal (up to 60-70 years) fluctuations in the tide gauge measurements, which can be cherry picked to give apparent short term accelerations in sea level trends. Taking the best long term records, which include the Isle of the Dead tide mark (1884) and the Fort Denison tide station (1886) the fluctuations are evened out and there is no acceleration of sea level rise in the long term records.

    Albert Parker also makes some choice remarks about the IPCC scientists and in particular the published work of Dr John Hunter (both in the scientific literature and his own blog).

    The paper has some odd phasing suggesting that it has been translated to or from a foreign language, possible Spanish.

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      Peter C

      Isle of the Dead tide mark 1841. My bad.

      Part of the conclusion of the paper here:
      Pugh et al. (2002) claim the Isle of the Dead bench- mark was not struck at Mean Sea Level (MSL) as described by the man responsible for putting it there, Ross (1847), acting in association with Lem- priere, but was rather struck closer to high tide. Thus, they claim the mark was 44.5 cm above MSL in 1841. Then they simply disregard the assess- ment by Shortt (1889) that the benchmark was 34 cm above MSL, and similarly they disregard the assessment by Hamon (1985) that the MSL was 36 cm below the level of the benchmark. They report the mark is now 31.5 cm above current MSL to put forward a wrong sea level rise of 44.5–31.5 cm = 13 cm since 1841. The three assessments by Shortt (1889); Hamon (1985) and Pugh et al. (2002) actually show differences within the error bar over the 120 years. The zero absolute rise of sea level since the end of the 1800s is confirmed by the Sydney tide gauge instrumental record.

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      yarpos

      They make it sound like they have full solar capacity at 9AM? Still it will be fun to watch

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    Bob G

    There is no common sense on the Left. The oceans have risen 400 feet in 18,000 years and at the same time man has thrived. Granted mankind has trouble getting out of the way of a fast moving tornado but a flood that comes at us at a half inch per decade, I don’t think so. Look at the history of lower Manhattan island. About half of it used to be under water!!! Our ancestors didn’t whine about too small an island. They just filled the water in and reclaimed it!

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    el gordo

    Half the SLR is caused by thermal expansion.

    ‘Thermal Expansion: When water heats up, it expands. About half of the past century’s rise in sea level is attributable to warmer oceans simply occupying more space.’

    National Geographic

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    pat

    today’s MSM hysteria:

    NOAA predicts an ‘above average’ Atlantic hurricane season, with 5 to 9 hurricanes expected
    CNN – ‎9 hours ago‎

    25 May: AFP: Expect above-average Atlantic hurricane season, U.S. forecasters say
    The Atlantic Ocean could see another above-average hurricane season this year, with 11-17 big storms and as many as nine hurricanes, U.S. forecasters said on Thursday…
    An average season produces 12 named storms of which six become hurricanes…
    “Forecasters predict a 70 percent likelihood of 11 to 17 named storms,” said NOAA, referring to tropical storms with winds of 39 miles per hour or higher…
    Five to nine of those storms could become hurricanes, with winds of 74 mph or higher.
    Two to four hurricanes are expected to be “major,” meaning Category 3 or higher, with winds of 111 mph or more…
    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/expect-above-average-atlantic-hurricane-season-us-forecasters-say/ar-BBBwzjV?ocid=UP97DHP

    uh-oh:

    25 May: Baltimore Sun Blog: Scott Dance: NOAA predicts above-normal hurricane season, counter to earlier forecasts
    National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration forecasters predict a busy Atlantic hurricane season is ahead.
    They are calling for 45 percent chances of an active year in the tropics, 35 percent chances of a typical year and only 20 percent chances of a below-normal season.
    That is counter to earlier forecasts of a below-normal season, based on expectations that the climate phenomenon known as El Niño was developing.
    Gerry Bell, NOAA’s lead seasonal hurricane forecaster, said the outlook “reflects our expectation of a weak or non-existent El Niño” and normal or warmer-than-normal water temperatures across the tropical Atlantic and Caribbean Sea…

    Early forecasts that AccuWeather.com and the Tropical Meteorology Project at Colorado State University released in early April called for a quieter season, with 10 or 11 named storms and four to six hurricanes. But that was when it appeared a potentially moderate El Niño pattern was going to develop.
    Now, forecasters think El Niño may not develop this year, or if it does, that it will be weak…
    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/weather/weather-blog/bs-md-hurricane-season-forecast-20170525-story.html

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      Bobl

      So that’s a 55% chance of an average or below season?

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      Bobl

      Oh interestingly given the record quiet southern hemisphere season why would conditions have changed to generate an active northern hemisphere season? I don’t see it, still if NOAA keep forecasting an active season they are bound to get it right eventually.

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    Curious George

    “The land itself is sinking.” Only a carbon tax can stop it. With no power, there will be no groundwater extraction.

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    jaymam

    According to the official tide gauge the highest tides in Auckland each year increased until 2011 when there was a cyclone nearby. Since then the highest tides have dropped to a level lower than 100 years ago. Unfortunately I am unable to copy the URL of the graph showing this, having tried 10 times.

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      ROM

      The Permanent Service for Mean Sea Level [ PSMSL] station data is where you are mostly likely to find the Tide Gauge Data for a very large number of tide gauges around the world.

      The smaller the ID number, the in blue first number for each station, will give an indication on how early and how long the historical tide gauge data will be for that station.

      FT Denison in Sydney, a very long and early series of Tide gauge data for instance has a station ID of 65.

      To locate a station in what appears to be just a very long jumbled up mess of stations without any order but there is order and logic behind its listings ;

      The PSMSL begins it series with Reykjavik in Iceland and then proceeds eastward and south along the west coast of Europe and then Africa .

      The PSMSL series proceeds along the coasts of each nation always moving east to Indonesia, up the east coast of Asia and then back to Australia and then NZ before turning north again into the Pacific Island’s area and then onto the north and south American west coasts.

      Auckland and Auckland – Waitemata Harbour with two PSMSL recognised tide gauges are 150 and 217 ID numbers. [ about 2/3rds of the page down ]

      Clicking on the station ID numbers will bring up the Tide Gauge data and graphs [ the data can be downloaded from the graph link ] which in Auckland’s case indicates a rising sea level until around 1960 and has since remained almost completely flat line sea level.

      In another forum life I used the PSMSL data quite a lot in some heated arguments over the claimed very fast rising sea levels, claimed rises which the PSMSL tide gauge data said just didn’t exist.

      The satellite claimed SL rise of some 3 mms per year globally is subject to some very heavy criticism due to multitudinous adjustments that have to be made to the raw data, a subject on which I was only reading a couple of nights ago but haven’t a clue which article I read on those satellite SL claims and the adjustments required to the sat SL data.

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        jaymam

        I am talking about plotting ONLY the highest tides, because that is when flooding occurs. That involves getting one measurement per month or one per year. That is very simple to check by going down to the sea and looking at a datum. It is impossible to check the MSL calculations. There is always missing data.

        Mean Sea Level involves a measurement every minute of every day (for Auckland), i.e. 1440 measurements per day, or some 525945 measurements per year. Yes, that is what the climate scientists here do.
        What is the point of measuring low tide or mid tide, or any tide below high tide?
        In Auckland the lowest tides are increasing in height, while the highest tides are not increasing. So MSL gives the false impression that the sea level is rising.
        Again I say: we are interested in only the highest tides, because that is usually when flooding occurs.

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    el gordo

    Ryan Maue has a guest post up at Watts on the hiatus.

    https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/2m-global-temperature-anomaly.png

    There is a general reluctance by the Klimatariat to admit massive model failure and they want another 20 years to prove that AGW is not fundamentally flawed.

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    RoHa

    Losing Brisbane Airport would be a bit of a nuisance, but surely no-one would miss Perth or Fremantle.

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    pat

    TonyfromOz & others from the scientific side might like to check comment #45 on Jo’s Unthreaded thread, beginning with -

    “24 May: Bloomberg: Eric Roston: There’s Way Less Coal Than We Thought”, about a study that seemingly the CAGW mob didn’t want published…link for the study included.

    lots of other coal stuff posted at Unthreaded today as well.

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    John F. Hultquist

    Here is an often seen sea level rise chart:

    https://curryja.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/post-glacial_sea_level.png

    Note that 14,000 years ago the ice of the last glacial advance was melting, but most was still around. Then it melted rapidly. Much of this was caused by a change from snow to rain. Rain erodes ice. Good point, so here it is again: Rain erodes ice.
    At about 7,000 years ago most of the “easy ice” was melted. “Easy ice” is that at low latitude and/or low elevation. An example is the Puget Lobe (Seattle area) of the Fraser Glaciation.
    Ice that remains today is not “easy ice” and that is shown by the very slight yearly rise measured by the instruments — the so called tidal gauges.

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      Richard111

      Handy graph for the coffee table John. There is a very simple calculation, taking current sea coverage as being 71%, showing how much land ice, not sea ice, must melt to raise global sea level by just one metre. The conclusion I reached was 400,000 cubic kilometres! The isothermal melting of ice requires some 334 kilojoules per kilogram at 273.16 K. That figure applies only to the change of state from solid to liquid between the temperatures of -0.01C to +0.01C (or from 273.14K to 273.16K). You are going to have to add 2 kilojoules for every degree below freezing for each and every kilo of ice.

      This energy must be delivered through the air so rain is quite handy. The total energy required must be delivered to only Antarctica and Greenland. The amount of energy required is 121,454,545,500,000,000,000 kilojoules.

      Now try and figure out how to deliver that energy to such limited areas of the world in say 10 years or even 20 years without frying the rest of the world.

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    Rolf

    Why does the data that is linked to stop at the end of 2015 ?

    http://www.psmsl.org/data/obtaining/stations/111.php

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    Richard111

    Here in the UK we are building more and more houses with connecting roads that produce more and more rain runoff.
    This runoff usually ends in the nearest river which is no longer dredged for green reasons and the river floods and damages the roads and houses.

    Go figure.

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    thingadonta

    have these people ever heard of a bungwall?

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    thingadonta

    I sent my script to Hollywood called The Attack of the Killer 0.0000000323cm/minute sea level rise, but they rejected it. ‘The Day after Tomorrow’ got made instead.

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  • #
    ROM

    .
    20cm sea level rise in 100 years!

    200cm sea level rise predicted in the next 100 years!

    These guys are talking peanuts or are looking at their male appendages and basing all their estimations on their [ very limited ] abilities there!

    Now how’s about a peak sea level rise of 10 METERS PER DAY!

    Yep! It probably happened when the Mediterranean Sea filled again as global sea levels rose and flooded over the rock sill that runs across the Straits of Gibraltar about 5.3 million years ago.

    So read about a real genuine, fair dinkum sea level rise in one of the planet’s major bodies of water and see what a real seal level rise really consists of rather than a few miserable centimetres every century or so that apparently creates so much fear and horror amongst the ABC’s climate cult believers.

    Colossal Flood Created the Mediterranean Sea

    The Mediterranean Sea as we know it today formed about 5.3 million years ago when Atlantic Ocean waters breached the strait of Gibraltar, sending a massive flood into the basin.

    Geologists have long known that the Mediterranean became isolated from the world’s oceans around 5.6 million years ago, evaporating almost completely in the hundreds of thousands of years that followed.

    Scientists also largely agree that the Mediterranean basin was refilled when the movements of Earth’s crustal plates caused the ground around the Gibraltar Strait to subside, allowing the ocean waters of the Atlantic to cut through the rock separating the two basins and refill the sea.

    But exactly how the waters cut their way through and how long it took them to do so wasn’t known.

    A new study that used seismic data and holes drilled into the rock at the strait revealed that the ocean water cut a 124-mile- (200-kilometer-) long channel across the strait over the course of several thousand years.

    The team that conducted the study estimates that the water flowed across slowly at first, over a period of several thousand years. (Though slow in this case is still three times the rate of discharge of the Amazon River today.) But 90 percent of the water likely came over in a rush over the course of several months to two years. Peak rates of water level rise in the basin may have been as high as 33 feet (10 meters) per day, the study authors report.

    But rather than rushing over in a giant version of Niagara Falls, the flood likely took the shape of a huge water ramp several miles wide, descending from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean.

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    TdeF

    To remind everyone of the history of this. It is not about sea level rise, a few mm a year. It is about rapid runaway catastrophic Global Warming, 0.5C in 10 years so 5C in 100 years by the power of arithmetic. Robyn Williams, the ABC’s own scientist for Global Warming was happy to agree to 100 metres in 100 years as reasonable. That’s a meter a year.

    Has anyone been to the beach lately? Have you noticed a 10 metre rise in the last ten years or a meter per year?
    This whole idea of drowning cities is just ridiculous, absurd, fantasy, manipulation. Have you even notice one centimeter?

    Having seen snow across the world and seen vast areas melt to green pastures from Siberia to Canada, Texas to St. Petersburg, what actually happened? Did anyone drown in New York or Stockholm or Glasgow? Did anyone even notice the impact from the yearly melting of vast areas of ice and snow? Did all that Arctic ice melting make any difference?

    Why do people believe things which they know not to be true with their own eyes. That however is like asking a believer in the Rapture what happened when the day came and went.

    It has been 30 years of this. Nothing is happening. Nothing has happened. The computer models were wrong. There have been no drowning cities. Just use your own eyes. There is no rapid sea level rise threatening cities. Not a single global warming attributed drowning since the IPCC warned the world in 1988.

    Perhaps we should wait for another 30 years, as the graph shows? This is a Climate Cult.

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      el gordo

      ‘Amazingly, in a Nature interview a week prior to AR5’s release, assessment co-chair Thomas Stocker said this:

      Comparing short-term observations with long-term model projections is inappropriate. We know that there is a lot of natural fluctuation in the climate system. A 15-year hiatus is not so unusual even though the jury is out as to what exactly may have caused the pause.

      ‘Claims that there might be something fundamentally wrong with climate models are “unjustified unless temperature were to remain constant for the next 20 years,” he said.

      Ryan Maue (WUWT)

      ——–

      Climate is 30 years of weather, they can’t have another 20 years.

      Five years of global cooling should bring an end to mass delusion.

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      el gordo

      ‘This is a Climate Cult.’

      Yes but in defence of the masses the left/green blob has been using depth psychology and social psychology as a propaganda tool for a generation or more.

      The Trots occupy the newsroom of the national broadcaster and practically all of the msm have become propaganda wings of the pseudo Marxist political elite.

      A scientific paradigm shift, coupled with a few years of noticeable global cooling, should do the trick.

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        Lionell Griffith

        Do not underestimate the ability of a true believer not to see evidence counter to his belief. One piece of evidence in favor out weighs millions of pieces of evidence against. Almost always, their fallback position is that you can’t prove their belief isn’t true. Thereby depending on one of the most fundamental logical fallacies by demanding that a negative be proven.

        Demanding that a negative be proven is based upon a total evasion of what “to prove” means. To prove means to produce conclusive evidence for the existence of the object of discussion. Proving a negative is not possible for a nonexistent object has no attributes. Especially the attribute of existence. Because of that, no evidence can be produced for or against its non-existence.

        Part of the problem arises from the presumption that a proposition can only either be true or false. True meaning to be consistent with reality and false meaning to be in contradiction wit reality. Thus both true and false are connect to reality. However, there is a third logical alternative: having no connection to reality. Also known as arbitrary.

        The arbitrary can be ignored because it is logical and conceptual noise without actual meaning or cognitive content. One can only discuss and debate something with actual cognitive content. All one can do with the arbitrary is to identify that it is arbitrary.

        In some rare instances, it is possible to do the work to connect the arbitrary to reality which then transforms it to being either true or false. It is important to note that it is the responsibility of the one who proposes the arbitrary to do that work. It is even more important to note that others have no responsibility for doing such an effort. This despite any and all demands by the proposer of the arbitrary that others must do the work only he is responsible to do.

        Hence don’t feed the trolls. Respond only if some evidence is offered by the prospective troll. Then only examine and discuss that presented evidence. Do not get side tracked into other issues unless and until the presented issue is dealt with.

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          el gordo

          Yes, all you say is true. For instance I might comment to a zealot that half the SLR is caused by thermal expansion and they will say its because of global warming caused by humans. Its hard to counter their argument by separating wheat from the chaff.

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          Rick Will

          There is an alternate reality of Anthropogenic Climate Disruption that has plausible roots. This gives a taste of the thinking process:
          https://collapseofindustrialcivilization.com/tag/anthropogenic-climate-disruption-acd/

          The believers in ACD are in a position of strength in their alternate reality. Essentially it is Humpty Dumpty science where Climate Disruption will be whatever they say it will be. From that perspective EVERY weather observation supports the belief. The belief cannot be disproven as there is no basis for dispute in their reality.

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            Lionell Griffith

            Taking a position that any and all evidence supports their hypothesis is nothing but the other side of the arbitrary coin. It is most assuredly not plausible.

            It is still logical and cognitive noise in that there is nothing that can be considered and discussed. One side is “everything” and the other side is “nothing”. To consider and discuss, the thing to be considered and discussed must be something specific and particular.

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              Rick Will

              The plausible roots I was referring to are the growing population and consumerism placing increasing demand on resources.

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    Alfred (Melbourne)

    Right now, the wonderful fake Renewable Energy – solar plus wind – is producing under 3% of the electricity being consumed in all of Australia.

    http://qbusters.com.au/ida/e17.jpg

    I wonder how long this nonsense can continue before they throw in the towel?

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    pat

    26 May: Courier Mail: Labor in deal on Adani royalties
    by Sarah Vogler & Anthony Templeton
    STATE Cabinet has agreed on a new royalty payment scheme for Adani’s Carmichael coalmine that will see the miner pay less for the first five years.
    But any deferred royalties will attract interest, as revealed by The Courier-Mail, under a deal struck at a snap Cabinet meeting late yesterday.
    The deal would also cover other new projects in undeveloped resource areas such as the Surat Basin and the North West Minerals Province…
    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/queensland-government/labor-in-deal-on-adani-royalties/news-story/6de9d21ba4b36a77a7eecdbe3bd2fb5b

    ABC tries to spin it their way:

    26 May: ABC: Adani to pay full royalties for central Queensland Carmichael coal mine, Government decides
    “There will be no royalty holiday for the Adani Carmichael mine,” Ms Palaszczuk said…
    “Adani will analyse the details when they have been formally provided,” the (Adani) spokesman said.
    “Adani confirms again that it will pay every cent of royalties to the state ***AS WAS ALWAYS THE CASE, and that it also remains committed to regional Queensland and generating 10,000 direct and indirect jobs.”…

    26 May: Guardian: Joshua Robertson: Adani Carmichael mine to get six-year holiday on royalties, report says
    It is not clear how different the new offer is – the Australian reports that Adani would be asked to pay “several” million dollars a year before repaying, as before, the balance of full royalties with interest…
    But the reported royalties “holiday” will now apply across the Galilee basin and two other undeveloped mining regions, the Surat basin and the North West Minerals province…
    Smith said another beneficiary of a royalty holiday was New Hope Coal, who “claim to be sitting on a resource of 1bn tonnes of coal in the Western Downs”…

    26 May: Courier Mail: John McCarthy: Queensland thinks small and can’t deliver
    Whether you approve of the mine or not, the Adani saga, now in its sixth year, paints an awful picture of bureaucratic and political ineptitude.

    From the very start it has been an exercise in bureaucratic bungling that has been exaggerated by an apparent factional brawl sparked by the Left’s distaste of coal that must make the business community shudder.
    If a project described by Peter Beattie as a “no-brainer’’, and which has been supported by three successive premiers, can’t get up, what hope is there for anything difficult?…

    It has also laid bare the differing cultures in the anti-coal southeast and the regions where Adani is seen as a bringer of economic wellbeing.
    And it’s not just Adani. GVK-Hancock’s massive coal mine in the Galilee that is bogged down in the courts has effectively been shelved because of poor market demand.

    New Hope’s Acland expansion has also been in the Land Court for more than a year in a contentious case which has had more exhibits than the Mabo native title case and pitted farmers against miners in a dispute that has cost millions, threatened jobs and water security and should have been avoided…READ ON
    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/opinion-adani-saga-proves-queensland-thinks-small-and-cant-deliver/news-story/ae0f02f38db5f1c1880b9bf5513f5882

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    Eddie

    OT: Is the tide turning ?
    Just when we thought the Internet had saved the world from democratic centralist stupidity. Pommie PM Theresa May launches bid for a new Internet controlled by Government at G7

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    TdeF

    On Breitbart, Gary Cohn, economic adviser to Trump is saying things like “solar and wind power would help the United States become “a manufacturing powerhouse” while still becoming “environmentally friendly.””

    Cohn is also anti coal as they have so much gas. It may be that the trillion dollars flowing to solar and wind is very attractive income. While there is no way solar and wind can begin to supply the energy needs of any country it is a hugely profitable area subsidized by massive taxation, direct and indirect. Like the French, with nuclear as a base, it seems that economists are sprouting the value of selling useless solutions to bunnies like Australia. Unused giant desalination plants. Hundreds of thousands of disposable windmills. Part time solar. Why leave it all to France and China especially when US manufacturing can get involved. That will be the push to keep Trump onside.

    The last thing we need is a US President joining the Green Blob and billionaire Gore to rip off Australians.

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      TdeF

      I suspect the industry is so big now that it is past the point where anyone needs to talk about global warming or drowning cities. The indoctrination is in place and justification is unnecessary, so who needs facts? Pyramid building is in full swing whether it makes sense or not is the story being pushed to Trump.

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      TdeF

      That does give reason to hope. Trump will not be bullied and this was the first chance all the European leaders could work together to intimidate Trump as the new boy, along with Macron. It failed. However the universal approach of ignoring him as a form of intimidation did not work. All the leaders seemed scared to appear friendly, knowing the press is against them and even a smile or handshake let alone a warm greeting would have been front page at home. However by playing hard to get, even grumpy, they messed up. Trump is not looking to make friends and he is not interested in buying them. His world view is that the US gets a raw deal from Europe and China. He is not wrong.

      Still, he is prepared to listen to arguments on solar and wind, purely as a business proposition. The only climate which is changing is the political one.

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        TdeF

        Perhaps that vacillation is why Rand Paul (Republican Kentucky) is making a fuss now. Six million jobs, presumably in the coal industry and the centre is in the Blue Hills of his Kentucky then Virginia and more. These are the people who put Trump in office and then you get all the industry supporting the coal industry, as in Australia. Still you hear the rhetoric about how gas is ‘less polluting’.

        I did not ever think anyone would be silly enough to argue Carbon Dioxide was pollution but after three decades of vilification, Carbon Dioxide is the mortal enemy of the Greens, the greatest danger in history to life on earth. Of course all life on earth is made from the stuff and produces the stuff, but that’s apparently beside the point. Life on earth is the pollution. Now the Greens want to get rid of the animals too. Birds and insects are next.

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    Rick Will

    The BoM have been operating a sea level monitoring project around Australia for more than 20 years. It shows considerable variation around the coastline:
    http://www.bom.gov.au/oceanography/projects/abslmp/reports.shtml
    Southwest WA has the greatest change. Note that they state the data has not been corrected for ground movements.

    Another interesting piece of data is that most of the sea level increase has been due to mass increase rather than thermosteric:
    http://www-argo.ucsd.edu/llovel_2014_sm.jpg
    The black line is the mass contribution. This chart combines data from two satellite projects and the ARGO buoys.

    Very recent data indicates that there is now an increasing ice mass on land, for example:
    http://www.dmi.dk/uploads/tx_dmidatastore/webservice/b/m/s/d/e/accumulatedsmb.png
    Greenland has the highest ice accumulation in the modern recording era. So that little reduction in sea level showing in the satellite data might well be sustained although the sea level has often fallen after El Nino periods then increases again.

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      PeterS

      Also there have been recent discoveries that there are possibly oceans of water beneath the earth’s crusts. It is suggested that there is from one to three times the world ocean’s equivalent of water in the mantle transition zone from 410 to 660 km deep. Ringwoodite is suggested to be one mechanism by which oxygen and hydrogen atoms are bound together within its structure. At the depth of the transition zone the pressure and temperature allow water to be released from the Ringwoodite sort of like sweating. This could be the cause at least in part of the rising sea levels. This is not proven to be true but it is at the moment a valid interpretation given the scientific evidence. The point being there are various ways one could explain the rising sea levels however it’s ludicrous to suggest any of it let alone all is due to mankind based on flimsy evidence at best and fake evidence at worst by the global warming alarmists.

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    pat

    and 3-0 for Bloomberg “reporters” in favour of CAGW. too much spin to excerpt:

    27 May: Bloomberg: Six to One Against Trump on Climate in ‘Honest’ Exchange at G-7
    by Arne Delfs, Margaret Talev & Jennifer Dlouhy
    https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-05-26/merkel-says-it-was-six-to-one-against-trump-on-climate-change

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      TdeF

      Ha! That’s not a fair contest. With their mad free immigration policies, with the exception of the reluctant May, they are all losers. It is becoming apparent from Manchester to Stockholm, from Paris to Berlin. As said, the climate is changing and the shift away from the left of politics is gathering pace. The people have had enough of their politicians and their press. Obama is gone. Trump’s way is the future and they don’t like it.

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        mikewaite

        I would like to be able to agree with you , TideF, but in the UK at least popular opinion is swinging sharply leftward, favouring Corbyn and crew as the next Govt.
        Their policies are even more extreme, to the left , than those of the disastrous Callaghan Labour Govt of the late 1970s which made that Govt
        turn to the IMF for a bail – out and the FTSE100 falling to 150 (currently 7500).
        Forget about sensible energy policies,Brexit, tightening border control or support for private industry .
        The future is massive expansion of onshore winfdfarms , nationalisation of every conceivable service, union control of services and industry , and a hugely unmanageable deficit which will cause the Govt to seek IMF help again in 2019-20 , help which will certainly involve becoming part of the Eurozone .
        The damage to personal incomes as the pension funds collapse that are invested in a rapidly falling FTSE will probably only affect citizens outside the public sector, but all will be affected by the high interest rates necessary to try to control the rampant inflation.
        This is not an attempt at forecasting , but hindcasting, a rerun of what I experienced in the 70s, trying to support a young family and keep a job.

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        • #
          Matty

          May thinks she has Labour on the run, so called a General Election thinking she can wipe out Labour. Among Brits who don’t like anyone getting above themself that may backfire. No one in their right mind wants Labour jn power but some may take exception to rampant, unrestrained Toryism & vote strategically to thwart Tory ambitions.. Only in Scotland are they assured to pick up seats, where the dominant SNP have started whining for independence again.

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  • #
    pat

    8 Reuters staff involved in this one!

    27 May: NDTV: Reuters: Leaders Reach Impasse On Climate, Urge Cyber Crackdown
    (Writing by Noah Barkin; Additional reporting by Crispian Balmer, John Irish, Andreas Rinke, Giselda Vagnoni, Steve Scherer, Elizabeth Piper; Editing by Alison Williams)
    (This story has not been edited by NDTV staff and is auto-generated from a syndicated feed.)

    World leaders failed to persuade Donald Trump to back a landmark climate deal at a G7 summit (AFP)
    Taormina, Italy: Leaders from the world’s major industrialised nations failed to persuade U.S. President Donald Trump to back a landmark climate deal at a G7 summit in Sicily on Friday after hours of talks that were described by Germany’s leader as “controversial”…
    Meeting days after a suicide bomber killed 22 people at a concert in northern England, the leaders did issue a joint statement on fighting terrorism, admonishing internet service providers and social media companies to “substantially increase” their efforts to rein in extremist content…

    But on the issue of climate, there was no breakthrough…
    Merkel described the climate debate as “controversial”. There was a “very intensive” exchange of views, she said…
    The leaders are expected to issue a final communique on Saturday. Italian officials have suggested it will be shorter than 10 pages, compared to 32 pages at the last G7 summit in Japan.
    http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/g7-leaders-reach-impasse-on-climate-urge-cyber-crackdown-1704465

    BUT, if you click on the above headline in google result -

    G7 leaders reach impasse on climate, urge cyber crackdown
    Reuters · 2 hours ago

    you now get this major re-write, involving 7 staff:

    26 May: Reuters: G7 leaders turn gaze to Africa, climate harmony elusive
    By Crispian Balmer and Noah Barkin
    (Additional reporting by Steve Scherer, Giselda Vagnoni, John Irish, Steve Holland and Andrea Rinke; Editing by Noah Barkin)
    The leaders are expected to issue a vastly shorter communique than in previous years, with one European diplomat suggesting it might be just six pages long compared to 32 last year…
    There appeared to be little expectation of any overnight breakthrough on climate change, meaning Washington’s G7 allies might take the unusual step of issuing a statement just in their own names to stress their continued support for the Paris deal…
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g7-summit-idUSKBN18L2ZU

    a case of too many Reuters’ “cooks” spoiling the “climate broth”?

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    • #
      el gordo

      ‘…..described by Germany’s leader as “controversial”…

      Heresy such as CO2 doesn’t cause global warming and global cooling has begun.

      10

  • #
    pat

    meanwhile, Obama the Trump Stalker – back on the “don’t eat steak” trail – what a joke. Guardian no doubt thinks it’s cool!

    26 May: France24: Louise Nordstrom: Obama speaks out about climate change as G7 pressure Trump to honour Paris pact
    The forrmer US president on Friday published an opinion piece in British daily The Guardian, saying he firmly believes that of the world’s current challenges, climate change “is the one that will define the contours of this century more dramatically perhaps than the others”.
    “No nation, whether it’s large or small, rich or poor, will be immune from the impacts of climate change,” he wrote…

    In Obama’s opinion piece, which appeared to be published to coincide with the G7 summit, the former US leader focused on the second biggest cause of greenhouse gas emissions after energy emissions: food production and food waste. According to Obama, these issues are not being paid nearly as much attention as they should, and said this could largely be explained by a lack of knowledge…

    “Most people aren’t as familiar with the impact of cows and methane. So part of the problem that we need to address is just ***lack of knowledge in the general public.”…
    http://www.france24.com/en/20170526-usa-obama-trump-climate-change-g7-paris-pact-greenhouse-gas-emissions-environment

    ***said Mr. Know-It-All.

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  • #
    pat

    more Reuters revisionism:

    Trump and other leaders clash on trade, climate at G7 | Reuters
    8 hours ago – The leaders then adjourned to the San Domenico Palace, a one-time Dominican monastery that is now a luxury 5-star hotel. During World War Two, it housed Nazi air force chiefs.

    click on the link and Reuters has removed the above, but keeps this mention of “force”, which was in the original piece:

    26 May: Reuters: Trump faces G7 squeeze on climate change, trade at Sicily summit
    By Crispian Balmer and Noah Barkin
    (Additional reporting by Steve Holland; Editing by Hugh Lawson)
    “This is the first real opportunity that the international community has to ***FORCE the American administration to begin to show its hand, particularly on environment policy,” said Tristen Naylor, a lecturer on development at the University of Oxford and deputy director of the G20 Research Group…
    http://in.reuters.com/article/g7-summit-idINL8N1IR29A

    more on Tristen, if u can make sense of it:

    Oxford Uni Department of International Development: Dr Tristen Naylor, Departmental Lecturer in Diplomatic Studies
    Dr Naylor’s work examines questions of status and group membership in international politics. He is developing a theory of ‘International Social Closure’ that improves our ability to analyse inclusion in international society, offering stratification as the key concept for understanding contemporary global order. His work proposes new insights to improve the English School’s understanding of international society, its expansion, and its reproduction; in so doing, his work also addresses limitations in the global governance and diplomacy literatures concerned with clubs and networks

    Previously, Dr Naylor was a Research Fellow within the Twenty-First Century Concert of Powers Research Group, the Lecturer in Politics at Christ Church, Oxford, and a Visiting Researcher at Sciences Po, Paris.
    Prior to his academic career Dr Naylor was a Foreign Policy Analyst and Advisor for the Government of Canada…
    In his final post he served as an Officer at the Canadian High Commission in London.
    http://www.qeh.ox.ac.uk/people/tristen-naylor

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  • #
    TdeF

    It is interesting how even the Telegraph takes an Anti Trump stand. Breitbart reviewing the testimony of the former CIA head reported that there was no evidence linking the Russians with Trump. The Telegraph says that he was worried about a connection between Trump and the Russians. This is verballing, putting words in his mouth.

    What is absurd is that the Trump team is accused of revealing Democrat emails and exposing the public to the truth. I did not know that was a crime, except in the eyes of Hillary’s team.

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    • #
      TdeF

      As for Trump exposing state secrets to the Russians, he is the one who decides that anyway. If he did, which he didn’t, it would no longer be a state secret.

      What this means in the attempt to ‘corner’ Trump on Climate, the greatest threat to the world, is that the European leaders cannot be seen to be friends with Trump publicly. They have two scapegoats for all the troubles of the Middle East, Putin and Trump.

      No one blames Obama and his “Arab Spring” to ‘free’ Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Syria, Iraq and caused all the trouble. No one blames Merkel and her open door policy for Arabs.

      What is also odd is that the terrorists are all of one religion, but they are also all Arabs when the biggest country in the area is Turkey and there are 6 million Turks working in Germany and France. So it is all down to Obama and his ‘Arab spring’. More like Springtime for Germany. Goosestep the one step for me.

      There are certainly thousands drowning from the Arab Spring and none from the deadly few mm of ocean rise which so worries Merkel.

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  • #
    pat

    unbelievable. when I just went to google news page for today, I get not a single headline from the G7 summit, nor any article/summary with the word “climate” in it.

    also, despite doing daily google searches on “solar”, “wind farm” & “wind turbines”, at no point did a single one of the many articles linked to in this ridiculous “Factcheck” piece show up in the results.

    read all:

    26 May: CarbonBrief: Simon Evans: Factcheck: Whale strandings and offshore windfarms
    Last Saturday, two dead whales washed up on the coast of Suffolk, in eastern England, and a third was spotted floating at sea.
    What happened next illustrates how news can spread and evolve into misinformation, when reported by journalists rushing to publish before confirming basic facts, or sourcing their own quotes…

    However, much of the coverage was based on the speculation of one volunteer coastguard. The three whales became a “family”, even though they were each from a different species. And their deaths were pinned on noise from offshore windfarm construction, even though pile-driving at a nearby site finished two months ago.

    Carbon Brief has spoken to half a dozen experts on whales and underwater noise to try to get to the bottom of the story. Our findings cast huge doubt over whether offshore windfarms were to blame for the whale deaths, as implied by much of the media coverage…
    https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-whale-strandings-offshore-windfarms#

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  • #
    pat

    more FakeNews. imagine 84 of every hundred Brits wanting politicians to try to reduce the temperature of the earth…at any price, presumably:

    25 May: UK Independent: Ian Johnston: Climate change: 84% of Britons want Theresa May to have a word with Donald Trump
    Exclusive: Prime Minister urged to ‘use the UK’s special relationship with the US’ to convince the climate science-denying president to alter course
    The survey by pollsters Populus, who contacted more than 2,000 people, found 84 per cent of respondents believed Ms May should “convince Trump not to quit the Paris climate agreement”. Only about five per cent thought she should “definitely not” say something.
    Tanya Steele, chief executive of environmental group WWF, which commissioned the poll, said: “The Paris Agreement is a bold and hopeful commitment to protect the environment for future generations – nearly every country on the planet signed to take ambitious action to try and limit the impacts of climate change.
    “We urgently need our Prime Minister to use the UK’s special relationship with the US to urge Donald Trump to stand by the agreement and protect our planet for future generations.
    “It’s what the UK public wants, and it is what our children and our environment need.”…
    http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change-theresa-may-donald-trump-paris-agreement-global-warming-84-per-cent-britons-a7755106.html

    another dud from Populus:

    23 June 2016: Independent: EU referendum: Final polls show Remain with edge over Brexit
    An online Populus poll, the last conducted before voting began, gave Remain a 10-point lead, 55 to 45, its strongest performance in days…

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  • #
    Egor the One

    The only significant rise is the rise of the BSers !

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  • #
    pat

    CAGW activists/MSM are lapping this up, of course:

    26 May: Breitbart: Matthew Boyle: Gary Cohn Relaunches War on Coal: Fuel from America’s Heartland ‘Doesn’t Make Much Sense Anymore’
    White House National Economic Council director Gary Cohn, a former Goldman Sachs banking executive, has reopened the U.S. government’s war on coal in direct contravention of directions from President Donald Trump.
    “Coal doesn’t even make that much sense anymore as a feedstock,” Cohn said in Europe on Air Force One, while speaking for the White House to the press, the New York Times’ Brad Plumer noted.
    “Natural gas, which we have become an abundant producer, which we’re going to become a major exporter is, is such a cleaner fuel,” Cohn continued.
    BRAD PLUMER TWEET

    Cohn’s comments against the coal industry come as he has attempted to steer President Trump in a direction against his campaign promise to remove the United States from the Paris Climate Accords, a deal that Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) has told Breitbart News would cost at least six million American jobs. Paul and 21 of his GOP U.S. Senate colleagues have written to President Trump urging him to follow through on his pledge to remove the U.S. from the job-killing deal and stand up for the coal industry in the United States…

    As the Trump administration has made great strides in rolling back job-killing regulations on the coal industry, moving the government out of the way, President Trump announced to the American people back at the end of March that “the war on coal is over.”
    But it seems the war on coal is being relaunched by his economic adviser Cohn, who now calls coal obsolete and unclean. Cohn’s comments are sure to cause serious backlash among Republicans and Democrats on Capitol Hill, since there is bipartisan support nationwide for protecting coal workers.
    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/05/26/gary-cohn-relaunches-war-on-coal-fuel-from-americas-heartland-doesnt-make-much-sense-anymore/

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  • #
    Gordon

    Just check out the history of Ephesus Turkey. Oceans have to rise a lot to get back to the Roman days.This is just more BS.

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    • #
      TdeF

      Ephesus is well worth a visit. It used to be a very big city by Roman standads. Like Pompeii, all the best bits were covered so the marble was not stolen but the river which fed this port silted up, like most of them, killing the industry.

      Ostia, Rome’s port, is now 40km from the ocean. The canal to beautiful Bruges silted up, which kept it a time capsule as all the traffic moved away. Even Stockholm had to be moved 1,000 years ago as the land is rising much faster than the water, as in Scotland.

      Generally the problem with ports is that they have be maintained and dredged continually. However we are to believe the reverse is true, that the ports will be drowned. It hasn’t happened even with the steady sea level rise.

      Ironically the sea level coral atolls would keep rising if we didn’t live on them, so the sea rise is not the problem. Once again, the people are. As the Club of Rome says, people are the problem. Get rid of the people and the planet will be saved, but why and for whom? The Greens like Obama are now against cows and their solution is to eat smaller steaks. You would think that was a joke like Obamas Arab Spring? As the first black US president, Obama has devastated Africa and crippled the US but Hillary would have been far worse.

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    • #
      sophocles

      Ephesus may have been uplifted by tectonic activity which could have sped up the silting up of the harbour.

      From Wikipedia:

      Except for a relatively small portion of its territory along the Syrian border that is a continuation of the Arabian Plate, Turkey geologically is part of the great Alpine belt that extends from the Atlantic Ocean to the Himalaya Mountains. This belt was formed during the Cenozoic Era (about 66 to 1.6 million years ago), as the Arabian, African, and Indian continental plates began to collide with the Eurasian Plate. This process is still at work today as the African Plate converges with the Eurasian Plate and the Anatolian Plate escapes towards the west and southwest along strike-slip faults. These are the North Anatolian Fault Zone, which forms the present day plate boundary of Eurasia near the Black Sea coast and, the East Anatolian Fault Zone, which forms part of the boundary of the North Arabian Plate in the southeast. As a result of this plate tectonics configuration, Turkey is one of the world’s more active earthquake and volcanic regions.

      and:

      The dominant process in the region is the subduction of the African Plate beneath the Hellenic Trench, and the deformation in the entire African-Arabian-Eurasian collision zone is most likely driven by the slab roll-back of the subducting African Plate in the East Mediterranean. This process is further fuelled by slab-pull forces in the Makran Trench in the Gulf of Oman where the Arabian Plate is subducting under Eurasia

      Plenty of room for uplift there.

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      • #
        sophocles

        My bold in the above quote.

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      • #
        sophocles

        The Mediterranean is a tectonically very active area. It’s the last vestige of the Tethys Ocean (the eastern ocean in Pangaea north of Gondwanaland) with Africa driving north into Eurasia.

        Italy is part of the African plate (it has pushed up the Swiss Alps) and the Aegean area (Albania, Greece, Montenegro, Bosnia Herzegovena, Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Syria (north Syria) are banging around together with Turkey (Anatolian Plate) trying to escape West from the pincers against its eastern end.

        Santorini (Thera volcano), Etna way to the South West on Sicily and Vesuvius on the Italian mainland are where subduction friction melts crust and pushes it up and out.

        The Arabian plate is pushing north to north east, opening up the Red Sea as a new ocean.

        Fascinating area. Lots of Big Earthquakes all around there, often. Lots of interesting geological action too.

        Because of this: some Roman ports are raised and silt up quickly, others are dragged down and drowned.

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    pat

    26 May: NYT: World Leaders Increase Pressure on Trump to Stay in the Paris Accord
    by Michael Shear and Corla Davenport
    Aides to Trump were also pressing for language in the statement that would reassure coal producers in the United States that remaining in the Paris accord would not get in the way of the president’s efforts to help their struggling industry. The United States was pressing for the agreement to specifically welcome the use of so-called clean coal…
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/26/world/europe/paris-climate-agreement-trump-g7.html?_r=0

    Republican Greg Gianforte who won in Montana yesterday:

    26 May: ABC America: Republican Greg Gianforte delivers victory speech after winning Montana special election
    Gianforte: “Tonight we won a victory for coal and timber families”…
    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/video/republican-greg-gianforte-delivers-victory-speech-winning-montana-47656293

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    pat

    27 May: GWPF: Why Are Big Corporations So Eager For Trump To Break His Promise On Paris Climate Deal?
    by Fred Lucas, Daily Signal
    “Follow the money. There are companies that want to game the system of using carbon dioxide as a currency to make money.”…

    “BP and Shell are European companies and it’s impossible to do business in Europe without towing the political line,” Myron Ebell, director of the Center for Energy and Environment at the Competitive Enterprise Institute, told The Daily Signal. He added that for oil and gas companies, “the only way to get the price of gas back up is to kill coal. The Paris Agreement kills fossil fuels, but it kills coal first.”…

    While corporate support might seem surprising, it’s very much the same old story for large companies seeking an advantage over smaller competitors, said Katie Tubb, a policy analyst with The Heritage Foundation.
    “Big business and big government often go hand-in-hand. Big businesses generally can absorb and adapt to the costs of complying with burdensome regulation, of which Paris is a wellspring,” Tubb told The Daily Signal. “Smaller companies have a much harder time complying, which means less competition for big business. This is especially true if big business can influence the substance of regulations to favor themselves or freeze out competitors. I think in other cases; these large companies are just looking for PR points.”…

    Generally, larger energy companies have an advantage under the climate deal, said Fred Palmer, senior fellow for energy and climate at the Heartland Institute.
    “Follow the money,” Palmer told The Daily Signal. “There are companies that want to game the system of using [carbon dioxide] as a currency to make money.”…

    Ahead of the G7 meeting, Trump chief economic adviser Gary Cohn, the director of the White House National Economic Council, told a pool reporter Friday that the president is weighing both sides.
    “I think he’s leaning to understand the European position. Look, as you know from the U.S., there’s very strong views on both sides,” Cohn said. “He also knows that Paris has important meaning to many of the European leaders. And he wants to clearly hear what the European leaders have to say.”

    Ebell warned that if the administration seeks to make a deal to stay in the agreement, perhaps with a lower commitment than the Obama administration pledged, then a future president could simply increase the U.S. commitment. That’s why, Ebell said, it’s best for the United States to get out.
    http://www.thegwpf.com/why-are-big-corporations-so-eager-for-trump-to-break-his-promise-on-paris-climate-deal/

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    pat

    the Gary Cohn comments are not going down well. plenty in comments and republican forums calling for him to be fired when Trump returns to the US.

    also, there’s this:

    26 May: CNBC: AP: Trump has promised to revive the coal industry, but his economic advisor says that doesn’t make much sense
    Sen. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., a longtime coal advocate, said he was taken aback by Cohn’s remarks, which sounded more in line with the Obama administration than Trump.
    “I completely disagree with his statement,” Manchin said, adding that he plans to meet with Cohn “to explain the role that coal has and will continue to play in making this country great.”

    Melinda Pierce, legislative director for the Sierra Club, the nation’s largest environmental group, said Cohn’s comments were accurate.
    “Coal is increasingly not competitive as the market, the international community and public opinion reject this dirty fossil fuel that makes our families sick, pollutes our air and water and threatens our climate,” Pierce said.
    “The Trump administration’s policies are completely at odds with these facts and need to catch up to reality instead of putting polluter profits ahead of the health of our communities,” she said.

    That’s unlikely to happen…
    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/26/donald-trump-and-economic-advisor-gary-cohn-differ-on-coal.html

    still trying to find a piece I saw earlier where Cohn basically claimed Trump was now more “knowledgeable” BECAUSE he had spoken to people with more knowledge on the subject of climate change.
    for now, why is this ***early para at Bloomberg so awkward?

    27 May: Bloomberg: Trump Working to Understand Europe’s View on Climate Change, Cohn Says
    by Margaret Talev & Jennifer Jacobs
    ***Trump “feels much more knowledgeable on the topic today,” following the Group of Seven meeting, Gary Cohn, director of the National Economic Council, said on the sidelines of the summit in Sicily, Italy. Trump’s trying “to understand the European position,” he said.

    Cohn on coal
    Mr Cohn observed on Thursday that the US is moving away from using coal in power plants.
    “Coal does not even really make that much sense anymore as a feedstock,” Mr Cohn told reporters traveling aboard Air Force One. “Natural gas, which we have become an abundant producer of, which we’re becoming a large exporter of, is such a cleaner fuel. If you think of how much solar and how much wind we’ve created in the United States, we can be a manufacturing powerhouse and still be environmentally friendly.”…

    The delay opened the opportunity for foreign and religious leaders, notably Pope Francis, to press Trump into honoring U.S. commitments on the environment.
    ???The delay opened the opportunity for foreign and religious leaders, notably Pope Francis, to press Trump into honoring U.S. commitments on the environment…

    “Look as you know from the US, there’s very strong views on both sides,” said Mr Cohn. “Both sides are running ads. So he knows that in the US there’s very strong opinions on both sides, but he also knows that Paris has important meaning to many of the European leaders. And he wants to clearly hear what the European leaders have to say.”
    https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-05-26/trump-leaning-to-understand-europe-view-on-climate-cohn-says

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    pat

    ***particularly galling for Trump supporters is this Cohn comment

    26 May: Bess Levin: White House Adviser Tells Europeans, Trump “Came Here ***to Get Smarter”
    Gary Cohn does not stick to the script.
    Top economic adviser goes rogue
    Of all of the people who signed up to join the Trump administration, one of the most surprising was Gary Cohn. In his past life, the National Economic Council director was the president of Goldman Sachs, where he was surrounded by mostly intelligent people and had a boss who is widely respected. He’s a registered Democrat. And, unlike many of the people on Team Trump, he is aware of basic facts like if you want to build a road, it costs money. But Cohn was widely known to have grown sick and tired of waiting for Lloyd Blankfein to vacate the C.E.O. office, allowing him to get the job, and so when the call came to work for the White House, it appeared to be a good way to make a graceful exit. (When you’re worth hundreds of millions of dollars, retirement starts to look like a fate worse than death.) But the last several months have clearly worn on Cohn, and on Friday, he showed signs of taking the first step in a series of steps that might result in blurting out, “I can‘t work with you morons anymore!”

    One of them involved trashing coal, i.e., the thing Trump seems to think is the cornerstone of a vibrant 21st-century economy. Mediaite (LINK) has the details of Cohn’s pique…

    The other was the tacit admission that the president may be dumb, or at the very least, nowhere near up as smart as a person representing the U.S. at the G7 Summit should be…

    Tweet: Jim Acosta (CNN): Cohn says of POTUS at G7 summit: “He came here to learn. He came here to get smarter.”

    Have a great long weekend!
    http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/05/gary-cohn-donald-trump-get-smarter

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    pat

    following Acosta’s “get smarter” tweet, he has the following. what is he referring to? something doesn’t seem right with this whole Cohn narrative.

    26 May: Twitter: Jim Acosta CNN:
    WH is tweeting pics from Cohn briefing. But it was off-camera and only avail to small pool of reporters. Full WH press corps had no access.
    https://twitter.com/Acosta/status/868155413782573056

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    pat

    26 May: Breitbart: Cohn: Trump Becoming “Smarter,’ ‘More Knowledgeable’ on Climate Change
    by Joel B. Pollak
    White House economic advisor Gary Cohn made the curious comment in Sicily on Friday that President Donald Trump’s views on climate change were “evolving.”
    It was not clear exactly what that meant. “Evolution” could mean moving towards the alarmist consensus of the left — or it could also mean toward a skeptical view, one more carefully informed by scientific and economic reality.
    In political terms, “evolving” is usually a term used by the left, a euphemism to describe when a politician has changed his or her position…

    Like the term “progressive,” the term “evolution” implies an improvement in moral and intellectual terms, from prejudice and ignorance to reason and enlightenment. The left, presuming that its own views are superior, and that the “long arc of history” bends in its direction, expects people to “evolve” in its direction.
    What was stranger were Cohn’s words explaining how Trump is said to be evolving. The president, he said, was becoming “smarter” and becoming “more knowledgeable” about the issue.
    Again, that could mean Trump is growing skeptical of the alarmist, non-scientific view around which our public debate on climate change revolves. (In obtaining a degree in environmental science and public policy from Harvard, for instance, I became more knowledgeable about the problems in modeling climate — problems that have not improved much since then, despite the radical advances in computer technology and data analysis.)…

    It is also possible that Cohn was shaping his assessment of the president’s views to flatter his largely European audience, which believes in climate change the way people on other continents believe in religion.
    That flattery may have been appropriate, for diplomatic reasons. What defies explanation is why he would imply that his boss had previously been less “smart” about the issue, or less well informed.
    It is the kind of comment that tends to reinforce the false narrative the media spins about every single Republican president — i.e. that he is stupid…

    It is also a comment that carries considerable political risk. Conservatives resent being told, usually by leftists, that their generally skeptical views on climate change are poorly informed, or “denialist.” Often, the leftists making such accusations cannot actually explain themselves how climate change is presumed to take place, and never consider a view other than their own.
    For now, conservatives continue to hold out hope that the president “evolves” the U.S. out of the Paris climate agreement…ETC
    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/05/26/climate-change-cohn-trump/

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    Wayne Job

    When I was a lad some fifty years ago i went for a big ride on a motor cycle, some where I think north of Alice Springs some what the day ended and it was time to camp. I road of the the road into the desert to set up the tent. The sun went down rather quickly and it was as black as spades and almost as cold as the arctic in about ten minutes. In the tent I dug down into the sand and wrapped up in my sleeping bag.The sand kept me nice and warm. Packing up the next morning I noticed shells in the sand, they looked fresh not weathered much and very ocean looking. If the ocean was that high once not long ago fears of it rising are somewhat misplaced if the cause is CO2.

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    • #
      PeterS

      Well at least you didn’t wake up in the morning to find several 2 m high ant hills nearby. I got a rude shock when I saw them. Next time I better survey the surrounding area to make sure.

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    el gordo

    Pearl River Estuary tide gauges find no AGW signal in sea level.

    http://www.co2science.org/articles/V20/may/a12.php

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    observa

    “One of the oldest tide gauge benchmarks in the world is at Port Arthur in south-east Tasmania. When combined with historical tide gauge data (found in the London and Australian archives) and recent sea level observations, it shows that relative sea level has risen by 13.5 cm from 1841 to 2000.”

    That’s an average of 0.85mm a year for over half a century but we have another much longer tide gauge at Hallett Cove Conservation Park in South Australia whereby the science tells us-

    “During the Recent ice age about 20 000 years ago,
    sea level was about 130 metres lower than today
    and South Australia’s coastline was about 150
    kilometres south of where Victor Harbor now is.
    The ice cap started to melt about 15 000 years ago.
    Sea level began to rise and reached its present level
    about 6000–7000 years ago.”
    (Hallet Cove geological trail, Govt of SA, Primary Industries & Resources SA, 2010)

    and that can be an average rise of 16.25mm/yr for EIGHT THOUSAND YEARS.

    Very very clever folks in white lab coats that can detect the anthropogenic CO2 signal from the truest historical proxy for global warming down at Port Arthur recently wouldn’t you say? [snip because of 18C]

    [Let's all be clear that floating ice melts without raising sea level at all. It returns to the same volume of water that formed the ice in the first place. The final snip is unfortunately necessary but doesn't detract from the rest.] AZ

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      observa

      Let’s all be clear that floating ice melts without raising sea level at all. It returns to the same volume of water that formed the ice in the first place.

      That’s true but long haul sea level rise can only occur with temperature expansion of sea water and/or ice on land or the polar caps melting and adding to it so we should ask why is the one proxy that rules them all so obviously overlooked?
      (Note: That ‘Hallet Cove Geological trail’ brochure is no longer up on the Govt website but I have a copy and will be interested to see if they have removed same from informational signboards in the Conservation Park itself)

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    doubtingdave

    OFF topic , but sets up the weekend open thread nicely , QUOTE from Angela Merkel * The Paris deal isn’t just any other deal , it is a key agreement that shapes todays GLOBALISATION “. So now we know for certain , its never been about the science has it ? , Merkel wants a NWO and she hopes that the EU will be the proto type that globalism is based upon , from BREITBART NEWS http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/05/27/merkel-mad-trump-declines-endorse-paris-climate-agreement/

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    Don Gaddes

    ” i defy anyone to find a climate model that can predict rainfall patterns globally with any measurable skill above random chance… ”
    I refer you to the work ‘Tomorrow’s Weather’ (Alex S. Gaddes, 1990.) That defines the ‘X FACTOR’ and its terrestrial ‘footprint’ in terms of exact Solar-induced longitudinal orbital ‘Dry’ Cycles.
    These ‘Dry’ Cycles move from East to West around the Planet, with the Solar orbit of the Earth’s Magnetic Field. By default, the Wet’/Normal periods (or Cycles.) between these ‘Dry’ periods are also exactly predictable.
    The ameliorating factor in these ‘Dry’ Cycles, (an exacerbating factor in the ‘wet’/Normal periods,) is the ‘albedo’ effects of volcanic activity, that produces Low Pressure systems and ‘cloud seeding’ (via volcanic ash,) moving from West to East with the Earth’s Axial Spin. An example of this is the recent Cyclone Debbie, that was initiated over the Coral Sea by volcanic activity in Indonesia and Bougainville and exacerbated by the major eruption of Sabancaya in Peru, appearing as an East Coast Low over Australia.
    The current ‘Dry’ Cycle ended circa 110 degrees East (Beijing) in mid February – and will end over Australia in early January 2018.
    An updated version of ‘Tomorrow’s Weather’ (Including ‘Dry’ Cycle forecasts to 2055,) is available as a free PDF from dongaddes93@gmail.com

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    The heralded 2 mm/year rise of sea level is based on one tidal gauge station at Quarry Bay, Hong Kong Harbor, Gloss ID 77.

    However, this reading does not reflect a sea level rise, but a subsidence of the geology on which the station sits.

    The “2 mm/yr of sea level rise” is bullocks.

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    Oliver K. Manuel

    Thanks, JoNova for helping the public see that the govenment’s AGW scare is intended to keep the public from realizing their good fortune by experiencing the benevolence of the eternal now instead of forever worrying about the government’s false warnings of tomorrow’s disasters!

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    tom0mason

    Agreed fly, so remove it.

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