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It’s that bad — talk of “declaring emergencies” and nationalizing South Australian electricity

Smell the desperation

Here in Oz, political lives are in turmoil. Suddenly “load shedding” is the topic de jour, and there are hit lists of suburbs in the firing line. It’s a long list.  Welcome to your green future.

The language is ramping up.  The SA state government is talking of a “dramatic intervention in the electricity market”.

The plans are “advanced” but they apparently don’t know what that intervention is. It could be a script for “Yes Minister”:

 Premier Jay Weatherill said the plans were well advanced, and all options remained on the table.

“One option is to completely nationalise the system,” Mr Weatherill said.

“That’s an extraordinary option. It would involve breaking contracts and exposing us to sovereign risk and the South Australian taxpayers to extraordinary sums of money. “It’s not a preferred option but we’re ruling nothing out at this point.”

Even if there were no more blackouts in SA, how much stress is added by not knowing if the electricity will be cut off without warning? How many people are preemptively running air conditioners early or all day?

The situation has changed so much that even Malcolm Turnbull, the man who fell on his sword for a carbon tax in 2009, is now scathing about renewables:

“What they did in a lazy and complacent way is they just assumed they could suck more and more energy from Victoria from those very emissions-intensive brown coal generators in the Latrobe valley,” he said.

Which is quite unfair. SA was not lazy. It took real effort and a lot of money to create this much instability.

Malcolm-come-lately’s warning to SA might have been more useful had he said this before they drove their last coal fired plant out of business. The “stunning Turnbull turnaround” on renewables is being received with dismay by some at the ABC. (Shame the ABC doesn’t allow comments on that story).

Is it a “state of emergency”?

The Federal Minister thinks so, the state Minister doesn’t:

Federal Minister for the Environment and Energy Josh Frydenberg said the SA Government should have declared an emergency on Wednesday to direct Pelican Point to be turned on.

“Under the rules, it is solely up to the South Australian Government to decide if there was an emergency, and in doing so be in a position to direct Pelican Point to supply,” he said.

AEMO is a corporate body charged with the administration and operation of the national wholesale electricity market.

SA Treasurer Tom Koutsantonis said he could only direct AEMO in times of state emergency, such as fire, flood, earthquake and war.

With a heatwave running and potentially an increase in the mortality rate, those in poor health might consider it an emergency to have their air conditioning subject to rolling blackouts. (It was certainly an emergency for local bats). The SA electricity grid is a ‘basket case’: says  Frydenberg.

 

Note the energy geniuses at the ABC offer up all solutions except the most obvious and cheap one:

What’s the solution?

South Australia needs more sources of power that can be dispatched on demand.

Local authorities are already investigating the possibility of an additional interconnector to NSW, Victoria or Queensland.

If they decide to proceed, the solution will take years and cost power users billions of dollars.

Other potential options include storage of renewable energy — through batteries, pumped hydro or other technology.

The SA Government is also seeking to stimulate a new market entrant, in all likelihood a gas generator, by offering a long-term contract to supply 75 per cent of its own power needs.

h/t Scott of the Pacific and David B.

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435 comments to It’s that bad — talk of “declaring emergencies” and nationalizing South Australian electricity

  • #
    KinkyKeith

    The aluminium producer, just outside Newcastle has been forced to shut down to avoid having to shed power from 300,000 residences.

    The claim is that this weather is “unprecedented”.

    But this weather is no worse than many periods in my own lifespan and governments should hang their heads in shame that forward planning has been completely ignored and left once again for the next group to fix after the next election.

    Will the last one to leave Tomago please turn out the lights.

    Sorry, that should read, please snuff out the candle.

    KK

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    • #
      Fantail

      It’s not “governments” that should hang their heads in shame. Governments are made up of individuals. Individuals who will absolve their responsibility with rhetoric by shifting blame to “governments”. Individuals like Turnbull and AGW-supporting representatives in the SA government and journos with the ABC. Their responsibility in this fiasco should never be let forgotten and should be attached to them like a label with every future office they aspire towards. The enormous backward steps taken in this social experiment fiasco are unforgiveable.

      751

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        May I suggest that the ultimate responsibility rests with the voters who put the government in place in the first place. So if the voters are not satisfied with the situation, what is their option? Vote the bastards out and put in someone else.

        I hate to say it because it makes the whole situation look so hopeless but as long as the voters let themselves be blinded by whatever line of bull they get handed by their representatives in parliament and state capitols the status quo will prevail.

        So perhaps the voters need to hang their heads in shame? The ultimate power still rests with them. I dare say that if a big majority wants it a certain way, it will go that way. I don’t think even the rabid save the planet mentality could buck such a mandate. So why doesn’t it happen?

        422

        • #
          PeterS

          I agree. It’s not the state government’s fault – it’s the people who voted them in as they were (and still are) fully aware of where the ALP stands wrt climate change and renewables. If the ALP+Greens win the WA election and the next federal election after what has been happening recently with SA then that is 100% proof the public are stupid and deserve everything they will get from them. In some ways I hope that happens to teach us a lesson that was supposed to be have been learned many decades ago – leftist socialism is a cancer and the ALP and Greens should by now be minor parties at best. The only problem of course is things will go down hill much faster and we will have lots of pain, such as a severe recession or depression but that’s how the ball bounces I’m afraid.

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          • #
            Wally

            Great in principle but those of us with memories remember that the libs were the same.

            90

            • #
              OriginalSteve

              I have a simple test that seems to shunt the most apathetic out of their zombie -like state :

              I ask how would they react if while their child was having an emergency operation, the power went out and they couldn’t get it back on ( generator fails…)

              170

        • #
          mobihci

          in a 2 party system, with both wanting to continue the RET scheme, the voters have very little say in the matter.

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          • #
            PeterS

            The voters have all the say in an election. If both major parties say announced they will increase taxes on everyone to 90% do you really think the voters will be stupid enough to vote for either of them? Although voters can in general be stupid they are not that stupid.

            80

        • #
          richard verney

          May I suggest that the ultimate responsibility rests with the voters who put the government in place in the first place.

          I disagree. Usually there is no or little choice between political parties. Often governments do things that are not set out in their manifesto. Rarely do Government commitments set out clearly all arguments for and against a policy and the downsides associated with any policy.

          The voter is deliberately kept uninformed by Government PR and MSM.

          Against such a backdrop, the voter is not in a position to make an informed decision, and an alternative government is often no better.

          We will not get better government until such time as there is real accountability, on a personal level, for decisionss taken by those in power. It is the likes of Turnball who should be made personally responsible for the financial implications brought about by their crazy and unthought through policies. I would also like to se the MSM journos who have given up on investigative journalism and telling the truth in an impartial manner also being held to account.

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          • #
            Retired Now

            It needs to be spelled out – they will be personal responsible. That is if they pursue this course of decisions then they may lose their house, their investments, their super if it all goes to hell in a handcart. That sort of personally responsible.

            10

            • #
              KinkyKeith

              That’s the only real solution RN.

              There have been hundreds of millions in two transfers to the U.N. “special” funds which I suspect would have the usual noble cause image but on closer examination might more accurately be viewed as retirement provisions.

              00

        • #
          michael hammer

          Sorry Roy but I dont quite agree. The average voter is not an expert in climate science. They reasonably look to both their government and the media to at least give them unbiasd information on which to form an opinion. In this case both the emdia and the government have gone out of their way to give totally one sided biased information with the deliberate intention of dictating public opinion. In doing so they have totally and deliberately ignored their responsibility and in my opinion this is tandamount to fraud.

          You cant blame a jury for giving an incorrect verdict if say the police present manufactured false evidence. I note that a whistle blower has now come out stating (with evidence) that NOAA deliberately generated a false paper showing the pause never existed in order to influence the Paris accord. In my book thats fraud pure and simple. The media and both major political parties have let Australia down badly and should be held to account. Of the three, I hold the media most to account, their specific role is to act as a scrutineer questioning whether what is being done is right. Unlike governments they do not have the pressure of facing elections making their role easier but instead of doing that they have chosen to shamelessly act as advocates for one side (and it increasingly appears the wrong side).

          I think there should be severe repercussions for them over the damage they have inflicted by deliberately duping the public. For government media let the costs be taken from their budget for however long it takes to repair the damage. For the political parties, vote for a party prepared to be more honest eg: one nation.

          40

      • #
        C. Paul Barreira

        Both Roy Hogue and PeterS are largely correct. In the gap one asks: What proportion of the responsibility rests with unelected politicians, bureaucrats, advisors etc.? Did any election reveal the details of the regulatory structures that rested behind the ‘principles’ of renewable energy? I doubt it.
        Think of education in South Australia. Over fifty years have passed since the introduction of the new maths into SA schools. Not only did this wreck the teaching of maths but the principles went way beyond that discipline into the sciences and humanities. None of these things were the subject of elections and the people responsible never faced the electorate. Beyond the schools tertiary institutions, now massively expanded, achieved the death of the humanities which, as it turns out, presaged the deteriorating condition of the sciences. Consequently we have a self-replicating system of intellectual and linguistic training fit only for a totalitarian state.
        Into this mess energy has become a matter of political urgency for politicians elected—under compulsion—by an uneducated and largely unintelligent public possessed of an ever-shrinking language. Remember Macquarie’s word of the year: two monosyllabic words. ’Nuff said.

        370

      • #
        Oliver K. Manuel

        You are right, Fantail.

        Near the top of the list are NAS members, Nobel and Crafoord Prize winners who “sold out” their own intellectual integrity and the individual freedoms of their fellow countrymen.

        91

    • #
      Mikky

      There was a large element of chance this week, a major heatwave landing on a full working day, that has not happened for a while, leaving many (including possibly the AEMO, who should know better) to conclude that demand is falling, what with all the smart consumers, solar PV, batteries, and a whole lot of wishful “green” thinking, that the closure of proper power stations doesn’t matter:

      https://climanrecon.wordpress.com/2017/01/26/issues-with-aemo-forecasting-part-1/

      70

      • #
        Ted O'Brien

        Our last supply crisis was caused by a dramatic reduction in the price of 2400W house heaters, which caused a big rise in their usage.

        Part of the current problem would be increasing usage of air conditioning.

        And as people search for scapegoats, the real villains are to be found in our most powerful and least scrutinized industry, our education system, starting from the cradle. A system which sees a pre school visitor start crying when a farmer starts his chainsaw, because cutting down that tree for a fence post will cause kids to die on the other side of the world.

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      • #
        David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

        Mikky,
        I suggest the chance of a blackout occuring on a working day is not unlikely, but rather 5 out of 7, a bit above 70%, and hence a hugely likely event. Ignoring it is planning for disaster.
        Cheers,
        Dave B

        30

    • #
      ColA

      It seems to me that if there is a concern about energy security and power supply that the last thing you should do is actually make that worse by turning off a significant operational power station,

      WHY are the idiots shutting HAZELWOOD???
      …. and why aren’t we saying something to stop it??

      90

      • #
        David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

        ColA,
        My reading of it is that it’s a purely commercial decision made in Holland. But Canberra might wake up to its closure quite soon after the closure as our national capita is heading towards 100% renewables, and I think they’re expecting a lot of that power to come from … South Australia …. with back up from … Victoria.
        I haven’t seen a detailed shutdown timetable for Hazelwood. Has anyone out there seen such a thing? Does a single plug get pulled on March 1, or March 31, or is it a staged shutdown over the whole month?
        Cheers,
        Dave B

        20

    • #
      Allen Ford

      “But this weather is no worse than many periods in my own lifespan”

      Mine, too, KK. I am 84 and well remember sweltering it out in high school in the ’40s.

      The climate kiddies have no sense of history and it’s no wonder, what with all the data manipulation going on, and deliberate blindness to any period of history older than the youngest kiddie.

      Once we old codgers die off who will be able to challenge the latest idiocy, from first hand experience?

      221

      • #
        PeterPetrum

        I didnt arrive in Sydney until 1966, when I was 26. I well remember driving around the city (and crawling into roofs looking for termites) when the temperatures were well above 100F at ground level and heaven knows what in the roof spaces. These temperatures would last for 3 to 4 days them be tempered by a southerly buster, only to climb again for another four days. This would happen all over summer. This pattern has diminished somewhat over the last 30 years so the kiddies (especially the journalists) have never experienced these conditions before and talk about “unprecedented”. In their lifetime maybe. This is just the cyclic weather pattern that us older persons have experience before.

        151

    • #
      Hivemind

      ‘The claim is that this weather is “unprecedented”’

      I used to keep close watch on the temperature in summer, as I frequently went jogging at lunch times. Indeed, over-40 temperatures in Canberra are quite common.

      The only reason the Bureau of Meteorology could call these temperatures unprecedented is if they are comparing them to the much modified, homogenised and all-round faked records they keep.

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    • #
      RobK

      The claim is that this weather is “unprecedented”.
      It’s not so much that the weather is unprecedented it’s more to the point that our response, namely;electric heat pump aircon is an unprecedented load on the grid. Those who offset consumption with home solar suddenly find the home truths of solar panel output decreasing by about 5%/10degC and cloud cover making it almost useless. When industrial renewballs are slated to fill the gap…disappointment follows.

      80

    • #

      Underlying the lazy (still too well fed and entertained), politically polarized public, and their representatives, and the larger tyrannous agenda of the Insane Left, is the fundamental crisis:

      A general scientific incompetence–not among the public, but among the “experts” themselves, across all specialties that intersect with the climate or atmosphere, and thus among all those who should have nipped this in the bud–brought about and maintains the insanity surrounding “global warming/climate change/energy infrastructure transformation”.

      Back in October 2011, I posted the following comment on Judith Curry’s “Climate Etc” site:

      “Judith Curry’s testimony: ‘It is now up to the political process (international, national, and local) to decide how to contend with the climate problem.’

      That’s what is wrong with this [Curry's] blog site, in a nutshell.”

      In other words, she failed (and continues to fail, despite her stand against the “consensus”) to see how wide and deep is the incompetence in the “climate’ science itself–although all of you here who see the society-wide strict adherence to the alarmist narrative–in all of our most trusted institutions–on a daily basis, and know it is nonsense, know better.

      As I have also written for the last 6 years, 1) stop all “climate policies” immediately, and 2) take “climate” science away from the “climate scientists”, indeed, take it away from any scientist who believes any part of it. It is all false; it all has to be redone, from the bottom up (as far back as the Standard Atmosphere, which alone is good science).

      90

      • #
        Oliver K. Manuel

        Amen. I agree. Climate “science” that ignores natural variations in Earth’s two primary heat sources, . . .

        1. The Sun’s pulsating neutron core, and
        2. Radioactivity from the birth of our elements

        . . . is not science.

        60

      • #
        Tony Porter

        Harry,
        Yes you’re so right – exactly what I’ve been saying ever since all this nonsense started, i.e. since about 35 years ago for me.
        Dr Judith Curry making comments about ‘the climate problem’ is indeed her (supposedly a sceptical and informed climate scientist) adhering to, thus endorsing and even advocating the alarmist narrative. There is no ‘PROBLEM’ with the climate, at least not one that any human being can do anything about. Dr Curry and her colleagues should be loudly shouting that narrative, wherever and whenever possible.
        However, there are ‘problems’ related to the SCAM of this non-problem which we (humans) CAN do plenty to bring about change and where those scientists such as luke-warmist, Judith Curry should be making a lot more noise about.
        These misanthropic REAL problems which she and her colleagues have inadvertently encouraged by continuing to make comments such as what to do to contend with the (NON) ‘climate problem’: The Socialist green manipulated MSM just LOVE it when reputable scientists imply they agree with their misanthropic agenda, hidden behind the CAGW scam and it needs to be exposed to everyone for what it is.

        I like (you – over the past six years), have posted many comments on many blogs and sceptic sites about the need to forget arguing the (junk / pseudo) science about whether or not human induced climate change exists and make it known what they’re REALLY up to and what they are doing to DESTROY capitalism (their real ‘issue’), thus ultimately destroy our great civilisation.
        Communism or Socialism has NEVER worked, it NEVER will and history has proven that many millions of people are murdered in the process of proving it cannot work.

        This scam of CAGW is by far the biggest hoax in mankind’s entire history, but worse is that it has the potential to also develop into the largest ever HOLOCAUST in history.
        This is what everyone needs to be alarmed about. People should be asking themselves why are they still insisting that doomsday is nigh, yet NOT ONE of their catastrophic alarmist predictions have even looked like happening, let alone occurred? Why all the hysteria and scaremongering?

        Forget the science: we’ll be arguing that until Hell freezes over and even then, no agreement will ever be reached…
        The green bigots who want to form their one-world global Socialist government tyranny in the UN even designed the scam to work that way: They knew that while everyone’s arguing about the ‘science’, or what may or may not occur as a result of CAGW / man-made climate change, they’re not seeing the huge (Communist) elephant in the room.

        Thank You… I’ll now step down from my soap box.

        10

  • #
    Mark

    The ALP will rue the day it decided to run with the climate change scare.
    Now that Trump is in, cracks are already appearing, such as the NOAA revelations. Normally campaigns of political madness can be quietly dropped, and replaced with a new meme. But this one has infrastructure attached to it, and material failure, and long term economic consequences, and the list goes on.
    When that part of the electorate that was fooled realises it has been fooled I would not want to be an aspiring career politician in the ALP. It is hard to imagine a graceful exit strategy from the climate change meme.

    750

    • #
      KinkyKeith

      Hi Mark

      All of us who have been following the global warming scam know the background of this mess so well that the solutions seem obvious.

      Unfortunately we may be hoping for too much to expect the average voter to pick up quickly on the true picture when the media presents such a wide spray of opinion on the cost and capacity to integrate renewables into the power grid.

      People swallow the oft repeated “knowledge” that excess power from renewables can easily be stored now that battery technology has improved so much.

      There are so many other ” renewable truths ” like this that make it highly unlikely that the average punter will be able to feel anything but confusion under the politically inspired media barrage.

      It all sounds so real and people end up believing the last thing they heard.

      One thing that will stick is any detail about money. For example it may be interesting to know that power prices in many parts of the world are significantly lower than here. That can be reinforced by giving the annual dollar difference.

      Is the USA really $600 a year less than us?

      Do that and we have an audience.

      KK

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      • #
        oldbrew

        Yes they always talk up batteries, but check the cost and performance and it doesn’t stack up on any industrial scale. But maybe better than nothing for households if the lights and appliances just went off though :/

        250

      • #
        AndyG55

        Its like the water situation.

        No new dams in how long ??

        No new power stations in how long ??

        We have a increasing population growth, and NECESSARY upgrades to ESSENTIAL services like water and electricity are put on hold or stopped by a bunch of anti-progress green sychophants.

        533

        • #
          PeterS

          Yes no new base load power stations for so long yet countries like India, China, Japan, Germany, US and many others are building them including hundreds of coal fired power stations. We are not the lucky country anymore – we are the dumb country.

          400

          • #
            ColA

            As I said above WHY are they shutting Hazelwood, WHY????

            70

            • #
              PeterS

              Simple, both major parties don’t want to allow any investment into coal or nuclear power stations so as existing ones become unprofitable because of old age, government regulations, taxes or restrictions they will close down of their own accord. When enough of them have closed down perhaps the public will finally wake up and act accordingly (meaning stop voting for either major party). It’s clear most people don’t believe we have a problem so we need to have much more pain first. Perhaps as companies decide to close down due to the high cost of unreliable power and unemployment rockets up then the penny will drop.

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      • #
        Roy Hogue

        People swallow the oft repeated “knowledge” that…

        And you could probably just stop at that. We swallow what the expert says, never mind that it’s fallacious, foolish and even dangerous. To do otherwise requires some real work to educate yourself and how many will do that? I can’t even be sure I know enough about all the subjects that affect my daily life. And that is what is so pernicious about climate change. It took me years to be sure I really understood enough to be confident that I’m right about it — it isn’t happening from manmade causes to a degree we can even measure against the noise of ordinary everyday weather variations. And if you can’t measure it, can’t see it, can’t smell it, can’t feel it or hear it, it ain’t there.

        300

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          Back in 1983 when compact disks first appeared I got serious about setting up a good music system. I was fortunate to get some very good advice from a couple of places that saved me a lot of money. That advice was simple, “Put your money into what you can hear.” I ended up with a better sounding system than if I had spent double or more money than I did. When you can’t hear the difference that difference doesn’t matter.

          For climate change the advice is similar, “Put your money into only what you can measure.” And by that advice we would have spent nothing on climate change to date. If you can’t measure it… …well I’ve already said that.

          330

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            PS:

            I do have to admit to having a certain fondness for quality equipment and good specs. I will therefore admit that we should study our climate and what makes it tick. But not from the point of view that it’s already getting warmer from manmade sources and we need to find out how bad it is.

            130

            • #
              PhilJourdan

              And yes, that applies to climate. There is no point in pursuing a solution that exceeds the capability to pay for it, for results that have virtually no impact. Which is what Paris is all about.

              120

          • #
            PhilJourdan

            That advice was simple, “Put your money into what you can hear.”

            I learned that when I was a teenager working in the sound room of an Audio club. A lot of the GIs (with a lot of money and nothing to spend it on except stereo) would come in and buy the most expensive just because it was. But having to sit in that room 8 hours a day, I would listen to all the speakers, and pick out the best. So when someone came in who wanted real quality (and was willing to listen), I told them to first get a reel-to-reel (this was before CDs and DVDs), and then to get the JBLs. They were not the most expensive, but gave as good a sound as the most expensive. And the reel-to-reel had the least hiss from tape along with the capability of storing the highest quality of sound.

            70

            • #
              Roy Hogue

              Phil,

              After a lot of listening to speakers I decided to put my money into a pair of Bose 901s. They were the first speakers I was offered at the first place I went looking and I never heard better anywhere else. JBL in particular always sounded too hot in the mid or high range and one salesman even admitted that my critique was correct. House brands were another challenge — even if it sounds better than anything else, where can I hope to get support 5 years from now when there’s even a minor problem?

              I’m on my second pair of 901s after the first pair finally had the foam surrounds deteriorate. I’ve never heard better. Even a pair of $10,000 Martin Logan electrostatics that were so realistic with a small vocal group that I would have sworn they were in the room if I didn’t know better, were deficient in the low end, even with a 12 inch woofer in their base. I like a big symphony orchestra and the pipe organ, both sometimes really heavy in the 40 Hz and lower range. And Bose handles it without even breaking a sweat. :-)

              The Bose have their problems because they need that equalizer to keep them flat. So I can’t mix speakers or easily switch from one to another. But who cares? The music is heavenly.

              And they handle everything my 100 watt/side amp can throw at them without even getting close to their damage point. They can handle 450 watts continuous per Bose specs. I would hate to be in the room running that much power. They can shake the walls and rattle the windows with less than 100 watts.

              Best of all, the price was $1,400/pair, including the equalizer and stands.

              10

              • #
                PhilJourdan

                This is going to date me, but when I was working there, the Bose 901 were not out. The 501s were the rage because you could pump a lot of amps through them without blowing them (and yes, the kids wanted it LOUD). I do not recall the model JBLs (the good ones) today, but they sounded better than the 501s (named because there were 5 speakers in each box – 5 in 1) The 901s then went them better with 9 speakers, but directed in 3 directions, so 3 speakers in each direction – they were meant to be staged in corners so the sound would bounce off the walls. However, by the time the club got those, I was on my way to college, so only had time to install them before my replacement got the joy of listening to them.

                Bose is the name in speakers now (but again, dating time, when I was working there, they were not – they were known for taking the amps). But they were also not that expensive – I guess they were building their brand at the time. So while $1400 is a bit pricy for most now, they were around $350 then. (My memory may be foggy on that point – - I only recall the JBLs were about $500 and they were not the most expensive, but then you could buy a decent car for $2k in those days).

                My wife, who probably has never seen the inside of a true Audio shop, will only buy Bose now. For a kid who grew up only knowing them as the “loud” (and loud is not good), it is a bit of a paradigm shift. But Bose is the best unless you have a LOT of money.

                00

          • #

            Roy Hogue,
            Philosophical reality encompasses all thoughts that have been, or may be thought EVER! This physical; (physics) is but that wee subset of reality that can be\has been repeatably measured. It does not mater of the details of what is measured; only that such is measured. That ‘what’ must remain in the fantasy\belief of reality, but is mostly disjoint from the measurement because ‘we do not know’. Earthlings take great pride in measuring alcohol content, flavor, colour, ambiance, pheromones, of single malt whiskey; but can never tell if the King wishes to sip more, or pour it on the floor! Science is indeed repeatable measurement of something. One must venture outside of science to get a clue as to what that something may be! I like science, measurement of whatever! Several times it was four years after measurement, before some clue as to “what is measured”, rather than, ‘what we thought we we were measuring’.. This is why the measurement values are never adjusted for any reason!! The effort in recording that number\value is always the best measurement of something then\there!

            40

            • #
              Roy Hogue

              If it measures out as 1.2 centimeters and repeated attempts also give you 1.2, then record 1.2 and be content. I get it. Adjusting measurements to fit expectation is nothing short of a curse on mankind.

              30

        • #
          RAH

          It’s really not that difficult. If the state press is for it then be against it and you’ll be on the right side 95%+ of the time.

          120

        • #
          Geoffrey Williams

          Good summary Roy – I fully agree. It is so frustrating for those of us who have made the effort to enquire into the true facts concerning world climate and find that we are stifled by mislead/uninformed opinion. (And sometimes outright lies!)
          GeoffW

          60

      • #
        Tony Porter

        What’s needed is much more exposure of these sorts of ‘TRUTHS’ among the community and in fact all of Western Society… That is, the TRUTH about their real Socialist agenda they’ve been hiding behind the climate change scam, for far too long. The more people that get know about this and understand why they’re doing this to us, the sooner the (long overdue) revolt will begin…

        90

      • #

        Almost all adults carry mobile phones which are constantly letting them down because the battery is flat.

        In view of this, it is amazing that they believe all the fairy tales about the Tesla batteries. People believe that technology can replace energy – when the two things are quite different.

        More technology >> More complexity >> Less resilience

        70

  • #
    turnedounice

    There is a lovely English Language word: ‘denouement’.

    What is the Aboriginal (South Australia localised) translation?

    Perhaps the SA politicians should be chosen from those who, dumped in a local desert with a small knife can survive for a month?

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    John

    There may be climate change deaths due to the prescriptions imposed by the greens!

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    • #
      Greg Cavanagh

      Greens have already caused many deaths over the years.
      Everything from forest fires, shark attacks and crocodile attacks, to diseases transmitted by vermin and insects.

      140

      • #
        David Maddison

        Tens of millions of people have died unnecessarily due to the banning of DDT in the early 70′s based upon false information presented in the book “Silent Spring”. No doubt those same people responsible for its banning would believe in lies such that vaccinations are (overall) harmful and various other fr auds. Now the world is facing a new round of suffering from a mosquito-borne disease caused by the zika virus. No doubt the green/left types that disallow DDT would continue to be happy to see a new round of death, birth defects and suffering rather than allow responsible use of DDT. Some information at http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/summ02/DDT.html

        50

      • #
        stan stendera

        Don’t even mention the DDT ban. Don’t even their mention their opposition to GMO food like golden rice which will abolish blindness. Don’t even mention how absolutely horrible they are.

        1111

  • #
    Mjw

    Dramatic intervention.
    I.e. Blame someone else.

    150

  • #
    pat

    10 Feb: news.com.au: Australian Energy Market Operator won’t take responsibility for SA blackouts
    by Sheradyn Holderhead and Adam Langenberg, with Paul Starick, The Advertiser
    THE besieged national power grid operator has firmly rejected accusations it did not allow Pelican Point to generate extra electricity to avert power cuts to 90,000 homes and businesses.
    In a statement issued Friday night, the Australian Energy Market Operator said Wednesday’s emergency load shedding was a last resort following a combination of factors near the evening power peak.
    “Based on where our investigations are at, AEMO does not accept public statements being made questioning AEMO’s capability or that we didn’t manage the power system in a safe, secure state,” the statement says. “Further, AEMO does not accept the assertions that some generators that were available to enter into the market could do so.”

    It comes as a top bureaucrat says SA – and the nation – could solve the growing energy crisis if two cables were built to better connect the state and Tasmania to the national grid.
    Oliver Yates, the Federal Government’s Clean Energy Finance Corporation chief executive, told a Senate committee yesterday that two new interconnectors would “drive down prices”.
    AEMO dismissed criticism it was “asleep at the wheel” but did concede its demand prediction and weather forecast fell well short of actual conditions…
    Yates: “We’re a big promoter of trying to get both the Basslink second cable in place and seeing SA put another cable in because … if you allow commodities to move efficiently, it will drive down prices.”…
    (Originally published as Grid operator rejects blackout blame)
    http://www.news.com.au/national/south-australia/australian-energy-market-operator-wont-take-responsibility-for-sa-blackouts/news-story/6cc03739f431828ebf80be81d4b4013b

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    • #
      Raven

      … if you allow commodities to move efficiently, it will drive down prices.”…

      Cool.
      Drop the RET and those coal fired electrons will indeed move efficiently and drive prices down.

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    • #
      James Murphy

      “…if you allow commodities to move efficiently, it will drive down prices.”

      This may be true, but only if you have commodities to move… unless of course he is really referring to moving a few megawatts in the form of diesel generators, as they moved relatively easily to Tasmania, the hydroelectric state.

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    • #
      ghl

      Hey Victoria
      Do you really think that allowing SA and Tasmania to compete for your power will drive prices down?
      More demand = higher prices.

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      • #

        In the short-term it will not drive prices, but in the longer term, in a properly competitive market. But in such a free market renewables would not stand a chance. Any grid operator would not just look at price but ability to contract to deliver power when required. Fossil fuels can meet variable demands, whether coal or gas. Nuclear power can deliver steady base load power 24/7. Any form of renewables is intermittent. When it combination of the reliable sources it pushes up average prices, so real competition would drive it out.

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    • #
      Rod Stuart

      What utter nonsense!
      The original “Bass link” was sold on the idea that it would provde a secure alternative to hydro-electric sources in the once per decade periods of little or no rain.
      When it came time to pay for a 500 mile extension cord though, (AUD 800 million) it was necessary to go the the bank……..in Singapore.
      The folks in Singapore of course demanded that the huge capital investment be amortised, and Hydro Tas ended up paying AUD 70 million per annum for 25 years.
      This of course increased the cost of electricity to consumers in Tasmania.
      Seizing the opportunity to capitalise on the carbon dioxide obsession, HT imagined that it could make a squillion selling electricity in the other direction.
      I can say honestly that a minion in the TAS treasury told me at the time that with the $350 million investment in TVPS that they make a fortune importing gas from VIC and selling the “value added” electricity back to VIC across the Bass Link.
      HVDC cable failure risk? Absolute nonsense! Blasphemy! The cost of the failure of Bass Link is calculated to be $560 million.
      When politicians are allowed into an industry they do not understand, the result is utter mayhem. It is just the same as the situation in Rome about 200 AD.

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  • #
    pat

    I turned on BBC World TV on cable tonite for the first time in ages, & they were in an Australian heatwave frenzy. no mention of Perth’s record cold that I could tell. couldn’t bear to actually listen, but it went on for about 5 minutes, then I went back to overseas cricket.

    ABC is churning stuff out.

    BOM predicts extreme heat, catastrophic fire conditions around Australia – ABC news 4 hrs ago

    has become this:

    10 Feb: ABC: BOM forecasts hottest February day for NSW; firefighters warn of worst conditions in four years
    By Lee Brooks and Sue Daniel
    Updated about an hour ago
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-10/bom-issues-nsw-weather-extreme-heat-dangerous-fire-warning/8256926

    for ABC, WA is all about the rain:

    Flood warnings remain as southern WA braces for more heavy rain – ABC News
    WA towns flooded, cut off as record rainfall hits state – ABC News

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  • #
    toorightmate

    I am surprised the ABC (or BoM) did not suggest an interconnector from the Northern Territory.

    70

    • #
      ROM

      toorightmate @ # 6
      ———————
      Careful what you wish for!
      They might like it and decide to do it!

      Such is the trust and popular regard for the SA politician’s level of intellect and mentality.

      [ The ABC operates at a much lower level of intellectual ability than does SA's politicians if thats at all possible.]

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      • #
        James

        And then to a Coal powered plant in China. I did read, it may have been on ‘Energy Depot’, that the Chinese are investigating ultra high voltage DC transmission to the European grid, to sell the excess power which they produce with coal. Darwin would be closer to China than Europe is.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      “an interconnector from the Northern Territory.”

      Does Bunnings have enough 25m extension cords, that is the big question. !!

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      • #
        Yonniestone

        Trust you to give Bunnings a big plug……..

        40

      • #
        Environment Skeptic

        AndyG55
        February 11, 2017 at 6:15 am · Reply

        “an interconnector from the Northern Territory.” ??

        Micro-managed Consumer demand:

        Here is what they will do. I am surprised all those who are eager to send their children to go help clean up that clean nuclear power at Fukushima haven’t thought of this. Don’t worry, nuclear power creates employment for those happy to clean it up for thousands of years. A real growth industry,

        From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_meter#Italy

        “Italy

        The world’s largest smart meter deployment was undertaken by Enel SpA, the dominant utility in Italy with more than 30 million customers. Between 2000 and 2005 Enel deployed smart meters to its entire customer base.

        These meters are fully electronic and smart, with integrated bi-directional communications, advanced power measurement and management capabilities, an integrated, software-controllable disconnect switch, and an all solid-state design. They communicate over low voltage power line using standards-based power line technology from Echelon Corporation to Echelon data concentrators at which point they communicate via IP to Enel’s enterprise servers. Demonstrating that with power line communication, smart meters don’t require WiFi radios.[40]

        The system provides a wide range of advanced features, including the ability to remotely turn power on or off to a customer, read usage information from a meter, detect a service outage, change the maximum amount of electricity that a customer may demand at any time, detect “unauthorized” use of electricity and remotely shut it off, and remotely change the meter’s billing plan from credit to prepay, as well as, from flat-rate to multi-tariff.

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        • #
          Environment Skeptic

          I have already heard all the those who trash solar and let me tell you i only have 1.5kw and a few batteries. (A couple of cheap super-capacitors will ensure my panels can supply stand alone power on a hot sunny day even without batteries if super capacitors are used instead.)

          In my case, i can run my split system on half power and still have enough left for the fridge or washing.

          What is extraordinary is that all those houses that are grid connected stop supplying power to the households that have them if the main power is cut. What a waste and what incredibly poor design.

          All solar installations should have some super capacitors for minimal power storage so that the inverters can continue to deliver power to home installations.

          I have practical experience with off grid power now for some time and it boggles the mind that an entire grid needs to shut down when we have smart meters. Solar could basically still provide useful power to individual households that have them by simply switching households with solar panels into off grid mode if the household has some cheap super capacitors installed along with their inverter and solar panels

          No excuse with the advent of smart meters. Super Capacitors are cheap, contain carbon instead of lead and so are very friendly to the environment whilst providing enough storage and buffering capacity to allow an inverter to operate.

          http://www.solrayo.com/SolRayo/Off-Grid_Solar_Energy_Applications_files/Ultracapacitors%20for%20Off-Grid%20Solar%20Applications.pdf

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          • #
            Environment Skeptic

            Just to elaborate a little further the main point above with respect to the use of smart meters in Italy and probably elsewhere.

            Here is the thing.

            Smart meters can actually throttle the maximum power
            that can be drawn by an individual consumer.

            This means that instead of shutting down an entire grid, the smart meter enabled households/etc are merely limited as to how much power can be drawn.

            This further means that those with a smart meter that must have full power can still have it.

            It also means that grid connected solar can keep delivering power because grid connected households must existing power to feed into or it turns off. In other words if town power is cut it has the further ridiculous effect of shutting down those households with the capacity to feed power back into the grid.

            03

            • #
              Environment Skeptic

              Of course……..all of this can be done in real time controlled by the responsible power company.

              In my opinion, (Conspiracy theory time) all these shut downs (Closing Hazelwood power station etc) are part of a grooming process so that people will mindlessly accept ultra dangerous nuclear power.

              14

          • #
            Rick Will

            Environment Skeptic
            You have made some bold claims but it is apparent you have limited knowledge of the working of power supplies and connected loads in your home.

            Power meters CANNOT throttle load. They are either on or off. The poles and wires operator can control the demand by selectively dropping houses off. This is load management and an accepted method of maintaining grid stability. You are either on or off. The power meter cannot tell your electric oven to only work at half load. When you put the jug on it will take the same time to boil the water or will not work – there is no in between.

            There are two reasons for shutting down grid connected inverters when power goes off. First and foremost is safety – if the local network needs to be de-energised in the example of a tree falling onto overhead wires the operator needs to know where to isolate. If a line is down there is no way of controlling the smart meters as they rely on signals over the power lines. The second is system stability. Without a solid grid connection there is a good chance of brownouts, over voltage, under frequency and over frequency. Any of these conditions can damage appliances and lead to fires.

            Your obvious lack of understanding suggests you have no experience with off-grid power. You need to know what the term means:
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-the-grid
            If you are operating off grid you will not be paying a service fee.

            If you could island your house from the grid, your puny 1.5kW solar array and a super capacitor might keep your 31″ TV fired up till about 4pm. BUT DO NOT boil water, turn on the micro wave, use the toaster, dishwasher,clothes washing machine, hair dryer, 55″ TV, air conditioner, electric cook top and TURN OFF the electric hot water, the fridge, freezer and any other appliance that has automatic cycling. In the middle of a sunny day in summer your panels, inverter and super capacitor will not run a toaster or boil water. In winter it will run a few lED lights. Without knowing the details of the inverter it may not have self-clocking and voltage regulating capability so it could likely destroy whatever low power device is connected such as batty chargers and electric clocks. If is has off-grid capability, which I doubt, it might manage a small microwave. After 3pm it will run a few LED lights till dusk. Then you light candles and fire up the BBQ.

            Lithium is not a heavy metal. It is the lightest metal. Its main problem is its volatility. Handling lithium batteries needs care due to the high power density. A small spanner or Allen key dropped across the terminals of a small lithium cell will vaporise quite quickly at the contact points.

            Can you provide a link to a super capacitor that will hold 200V while delivering 1.5kW over a few minutes that is commercially available and details its price? In fact even 50V at 10A for a few seconds is of interest to me.

            If all this does not make sense to you then I am prepared to continue your further education. Your understanding of the technology is similar to that of politicians that have created the current mess. It is devoid of reality. It breeds the sort of nonsense about conspiracy theories and gaming the system with AEMO’s complicity in poorly managing the market. Hazelwood is closing down because it makes a loss and has no prospect of making money for the owners with the present regulations. It makes money by selling power. It has high standing costs. If it cannot sell lots of power it operates at a loss. This is the dream of decarbonising zealots being realised. Its wonderful because the opportunity to burn coal is diminished. That is the objective of decarbonising.

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    • #
      Allen Ford

      I think a better option would be France. They produce a goodly proportion of their needs from nukular, and with Germany out of the loop, the French must be itching for some other suckers to take up the slack

      21

  • #
    ROM

    The” suburbs in the firing line” Advertiser list is only available through subscription.
    ————————————-
    Politicians just can’t let go can they?

    They completely bugger something up that was running quite OK for near on a century now of electrical power supply by introducing all sorts of new and un-researched out of the blue regulations and laws to fix a potential and supposed problem after being worked over by hypocritical and fanatically ideologically driven and motivated activists such as the ignorant of power realities, elitist greens and climate alarmists in this case.

    When those same regulations and laws begin to to cause all sorts of new problems the politicals in their hubris and ignorance pile even more regulations and requirements and laws onto the problem to fix the stuff ups they made originally becaiuse they didn’t do any homework on the subject and are almost entirely ignorant themselves on the supposed problem and industry.

    Nor in their hubris and ignorance will they listen to anybody who dares to express opinions and provide data and material that counters their own personal ideologically based beliefs which they formulate into policy and regulations and laws .

    Climate alarmism being the example here and the ideological basis of this solely and entirely politically created power shortage debacle in SA.

    Then when that becomes a thorough political and community FU, one that the politicians and bureaucrats created themselves almost from nothing but based almost solely on a lot of “green and alarmist activist” hot air, they decide they in their blatant hubris that they are the only completely [ in- ? ] competent people to fix the mess up and everybody else must bow to their expertise.

    And then they lose office and somebody else has to try and clean up the whole corrupted stinking political and real time, debilitating society destroying mess up.

    And all the while the voters and populace are just wanting a nice simple clean keep out of our hair and our way and let us live our lives as we want to, attitude from the politicians.

    And in this case, just make sure we get cheap utterly reliable, always there power 24 / 7 without any so called alarmism and climate stupidity being attached to that power, its price and its availability.

    Nowhere does it seem to occur to the politicians that they were the ones who created this mess through outright stupidity and ignorance because they didn’t research and think through the problems and put to much trust in activists who were pushing an ideological agenda and who they as politicians had come to believe in their hubris, that they were the only “experts” on the climate and the only experts who knew what was best for the society and populace who had voted them into power and who knew what was best for the voters and community regardless of what the community and the voters might think and want.

    If the politicians just swallowed and swallowed all over again and announced that all subsidies to renewable energy were going to be thoroughly worked over and promptly eliminated if they were not proven to be fully cost effective and cheap for the customer.
    And reliability of supply of power at the cheapest price was now a paramount policy from now on and they as politicians were stepping back and just going to facilitate the building of power generators, fossil fuelled, nuclear, gas or whatever by private enterprise, so long as it was reliable and cheap and was not liable for subsidies then their political problems would be over as far as the major bulk of the voters would be concerned.

    Much screaming from the greens and alarmists would be heard but politically and societally and economically and job wise, look where those same greens and alarmists activists and their ideologically based policies adopted by the politicals have now taken the SA and are taking the other states political cadres.

    Sigh! But they are politicians aren’t they so porcine aviation might be seen sometime in the next century perhaps.

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    • #
      Graeme No.3

      ROM:
      There are 37 suburbs listed running from Port Adelaide, then Woodville (and any suburbs with Woodville in their name) up to Bowden & Brompton on the edge of the city, then north (and NW) to Gepps Cross, Dry Creek, Wingfield. Curiously they are all staunch Labor electorates.
      I will list them if you want them.

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      • #
        ROM

        Thanks Graeme No3 but I was only curious thats all.

        Labour electorates! Hmm !

        Is somebody in the AEMO getting their own back for the close to slandering the AEMO copped from Weatherill and Konstant ??? in the last couple of days.

        100

        • #
          ROM

          Very cynical alternative explanation;

          SA Labor figures it can hold those very safe seats even if it loses a lot of votes so they get to be cut off from power if that course of action is mandated by the AEMO

          But in the more marginal electorates the lose of votes from very disillusioned voters and constituents who get cut off from power plus electoral boundary re-drawings means the loss of those seats and therefore potentially the loss of power in the SA state election of March 2018.

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      • #
        StefanL

        It’s nothing to do with electorates.
        The 37 suburbs you refer to “. are in the next of 22 groups of about 30-40 areas across the state on the load shedding list — effectively a roster for the planned supply cuts.”
        My suburb is in group 21, so eventually they will get around to us.

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        • #
          Lewis P Buckingham

          Well, when it comes to grant allocation the grants are always timed for election year.
          Now if you wanted to put government’in control’ of power and hence climate [note this is an ironical POV], then what could be easier than to load shed into areas that are not going to vote for you anyway.
          My own POV is that the Federal Government needs to invoke the Defence power in the constitution and mandate a minimum of turning base load despatchable power in SA.
          Without that none of our defence based industry will be able to start up.
          The possible list includes parts for littoral vessels, submarines, F 38 fighter aircraft and possibly even terrain fighting vehicles.
          SA builds advanced X Ray machines, they need electrons too.
          The opposition in SA needs to ‘Do a Malcolm’ and lay it onto them.
          This is becoming a problem for us all.
          If this instability hits NSW, my home state, many more will suffer in our Western Suburbs, than the entire state of SA.

          30

    • #
      Allen Ford

      “Politicians just can’t let go can they?”

      Avoid like the plague, any pollie or activist whose motivation in entering politics,is “to make a difference”.

      Their “differences” are guaranteed to be counterproductive.

      30

  • #
    cedarhill

    The Left is a progressive movement. It each area, they progress from casual half-truths, quasi-science through half brained solutions to poor implementations to outright disasters and catastrophes. Along the way, they ruin every thing they touch, sometimes forever.
    The Western Governments are called modern progressive country. Fits.

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  • #
    Mark M

    10 years ago, I said to some close friends that we would have blackouts in 2014-15.

    They insisted that there was no way a government would do anything so stupid to their constituents.

    I have reminded them of their exact words.

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  • #
    observa

    How would you like to manage this variability with wind energy
    What that graph shows most vividly is the great deception with renewable power and in particular wind with its typical average output of around 30% of installed capacity. The only way to create a level playing field would be to restrict any tenderer of electrons to that which they can guarantee 24/7 all year round and then you can appreciate the obvious drawing that average horizontal line through the graph. They can’t sell anything above the line and must make up any below the line to even sell average output. The only way to do that would be to partner with thermal generators and pay them their just insurance premia but the current gaming of the system would be over. It’s exactly the same with large scale and rooftop solar unless their owners can invest in storage to increase their average returns. Therein lies the great deception with renewables now.

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    • #
      toorightmate

      February, so far, has been significantly more stable than most months!!!!
      The swings in generation are but one of many technical issues which do not receive publicity.
      On the commercial side, no politician who I have come across realizes that it is necessary to multiply the capital cost per MW by 4. The turbines average output is about 25% of nameplate – bloody brilliant.
      If I sold you anything else that performed at 25% of its nominal capacity, you would have me gaoled – and rightfully so.

      220

      • #
        Rick Will

        toorightmate

        On the commercial side, no politician who I have come across realizes that it is necessary to multiply the capital cost per MW by 4. The turbines average output is about 25% of nameplate – bloody brilliant.

        Your factor of 4 times is way off the mark. To guarantee supply 24 hours a day the wind turbines or solar arrays need to be backed up by storage source like lithium batteries/inverters that can respond instantly in situations of total loss. Even fast response gas turbines will not accommodate that situation. And what owner of a gas turbine will keep staff on hand in the event that a storm front might come through. This is the dilemma facing AEMO; their modelling of the supply needs to have better weather forecasting than the BoM is capable of delivering, let alone their own resources and to actually get that data into an automatic load forecasting system. When generation is on demand the problem is simply load forecasting. When a large slice of generation is erratic the dimension of the problem increases dramatically. We will see AEMO increasing blamed for poor forecasting.

        You are misleading people to suggest that the required capacity is the rated capacity on the intermittent generation times the reciprocal of the capacity factor. Once you bring in the battery storage and look to minimise the overall cost of supply the rated generating capacity ends up being 8 to 10 times higher than the maximum load demand (or your guaranteed supply) in a power system with 100% intermittent generation.

        Already the zealots fostering intermittent generation are pointing out how Snowy Hydro have made incredible income over short periods by being able to take up slack when forecasts were below demand. A grid scale battery would be highly profitable in the present circumstances. But there is no point where intermittent generation and storage, at present costs, can get within multiples of the cost of coal generation for grid connection.

        With the unreliability now baked into the SA grid it is likely quite a few low power intensive users could find economic solutions for solar/battery combinations in Adelaide. SA has a trajectory to de-industrialise the State. In fact SA is already subsidising batteries into households:
        http://www.utilitymagazine.com.au/south-australian-battery-storage-trial-installations-complete/

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      • #
        James Murphy

        I disagree with the premise that increasing name-plate capacity (even on a national scale) will make it all better. When there is no wind (or too much wind), there is no power, regardless of the numbers of bird-killers installed.

        110

        • #
          Rick Will

          James Murphy
          You did not read what I wrote or did not understand it. If you have enough intermittent generators and enough battery storage it is technically possible to operate from intermittent sources alone. I have been running my fridge freezer off-grid for 4 years now. It has no automatic back up to grid power. Over 4 years there was one day when I plugged into the grid for 4 hours. It was in June. June is the time to test solar based supply in Australia.

          I have done the numbers to provide a reliable supply into the NEM based on 100% renewables. The design is based on solar arrays in the vicinity of Broken Hill. If located there it needs 240GW of solar panels plus 700GWh lithium battery capacity that would be located near load centres. The linked chart shows the complete June energy flows based on NEM demand and BH Solar output scaled up to the 240GW; currently 53MW to size the battery:
          https://1drv.ms/i/s!Aq1iAj8Yo7jNgWhZT3VyVmc6zV_2
          There may be a lower cost mix using some wind power but I have a view these will soon be uninsurable and will no longer find willing financiers.

          At present best costs this system could be constructed for AUD830bn. At present wholesale prices it would recover the capital cost in about 70 years if there with zero financing charges. However it will only last about 25 years so it condemns Australia to complete de-industrialisation where consumers can afford to pay much higher prices so the system can be rebuilt/replaced as it deteriorates. Australia could benefit from the ecotourist trade. Already Chinese students and tourists arriving here are gob smacked by the blueness of our skies.

          41

      • #
        Allen Ford

        “If I sold you anything else that performed at 25% of its nominal capacity, you would have me gaoled – and rightfully so.”

        A few pollies gaoled on this premise would surely concentrate their tiny little minds.

        50

  • #
    King Geo

    A play on words with Jay Weatherill’s SA in mind,

    beSET by DEBT to LET 50% RET without NET, ie poor BET.

    90

  • #
    Lionell Griffith

    … “if you allow commodities to move efficiently, it will drive down prices.”…

    A simple and inescapable fact of reality: that which is not produced cannot be moved. Its price and an inability to predict its demand is irrelevant in face of that fact.

    Isn’t it interesting, the same government that caused the destruction of the facilities that could have produced the energy on demand is now expecting to fix the problem. The government turned a mythical future catastrophe into a crises in the here and now by pretended that it could rewrite the laws of nature by passing laws, rules, and regulations. Now it expects to fix the crises by doing more of the same.

    The effort will fail too because the fundamental problem will still exist. Reality never did and never will pay attention to government laws, rules, and regulations no matter how numerous or strongly written.

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    • #
      Lionell Griffith

      We the People, when and if they can, have been trying for countless decades to vote better people into office in hopes “they” will fix the problems. Clearly, that has not worked.

      The so called better people try the same old thing of passing laws, rules, and regulations to force reality into being more cooperative with their demands. This too has not worked.

      Keeping on doing the same thing that has failed is not going to change much of anything but the names on the doors and issued dictates. Seems that something very different must be done.

      Rather than expecting the people we put into office to do better, how about putting better ideas into the people? This has a chance of having a better outcome largely because people do what they do according to the ideas they have about what and how to do what they do.

      The challenge still exists about what the better ideas are to be put into the people. However, it is quite clear what we have been doing for most of the past several hundred thousand years has not worked out so well. Utopian fantasies, heavy handed top down power and control, and rule by ancient religious commandments are not up to the task of producing a long lasting, living, and thriving human civilization.

      Why not try something radically different? I suggest: think while remaining in contact with reality, discover how reality really works, and then act accordingly. Do this as if your life depends upon it because it actually does.

      If enough of We the People do this, the chattering class doesn’t have a chance. They cannot rule those who cannot be ruled.

      50

      • #
        Another Ian

        Lionel

        As I heard it

        “If you always do what you always did

        You’ll always get what you always got”

        60

      • #
        clive

        As Einstein is reputed to have said “The very definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result “

        10

    • #
      Allen Ford

      This quote, attributed to Albert Einstein,

      Problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them

      should be writ large on the office walls of pollies of all stripes.

      10

      • #
        Truthseeker

        Problems cannot be solved by bureaucrats. When given a problem, bureaucrats see the problem as their job which means it must continue otherwise their job will end. Not only this but they will make the problem worse so that their job is more important and they can employ more bureaucrats.

        00

  • #

    Jay and Tom, you’re actually making the PM and Frydenberg look smart. The combined forces of the ABC, Fairfax, Murdoch and the Wentworth tennis ladies couldn’t achieve that in the year and a half since the Turnbull Spring. But you’ve done it.

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  • #

    Methinks all the people who can actually do useful stuff have left South Australia for Galt’s Gulch.

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  • #
    Greg

    If only there were some alternative, something readily available that you could dig up from the ground that could be used to produce energy reliably regardless of the weather.

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  • #
    Brian Austen

    A second cable to Tasmania will make the situation worse.

    The real problem is this fixation with a national energy market. Let the States revert to looking after their own back yards. We don’t need an energy market. Cheap power should not be the sole criterion. We need reliable power that is affordable and as clean as the technology can make it.

    250

    • #
      KinkyKeith

      Good one.

      60

    • #
      AndyG55

      “A second cable to Tasmania”

      A second power cable from Tasmania will just drain their dams even quicker.

      Do they have enough back-up diesel generators for when they stuff things up YET AGAIN !!

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        Greg Cavanagh

        Its amazing that every time their schemes don’t work, they double the effort or money thrown at it to do exactly the same thing again.

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      Graeme No.3

      I see one problem, the assumption that current politicians can make rational decisions.

      Weatherill’s claim that he will take control of the SA grid is a case in point. He doesn’t have the money thanks to 14 years of financial profligancy and he doesn’t know what to do. His immediate reaction to wind turbines not delivering power was to claim that more were needed. Now, a good(?) 2 years after refusing a plan by ALINTA to change the Northern power station to a gas fired plant, he wants to build one – or more correctly get someone else to build it quickly before next year’s summer and election. So the successful bidder will demand, and get a fixed share of the market at what cost? (an arm and a leg as deposit).
      I see some commentators are now calling him WeatherDILL; I don’t but my description of him would be censored.

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  • #
    Spetzer86

    It’s very much like Ayn Rand envisioned in Atlas Shrugged. You can watch the whole mess slowly becoming unraveled and the people pretty much just trying to deal with the situation and things keep getting worse. Government attempting to control everything is right in line with the plot.

    100

    • #
      Lionell Griffith

      Over a decade ago, there were comments on a blog about how Atlas Shrugged was an uncanny prophecy. I replied that it was not a prophecy, it was a script. Only the names, dates, and minor details of the action were changed to maintain the appearance of it being fiction.

      I thought it a script because the ideas presented that led to the ultimate conclusion were in full force in the society at the time. Sadly, they are still in full force and will produce a very similar outcome: a long dark night of a collapsed human civilization. It is a consequence of a philosophical equation having the force of 2+2=4: reality is real and can neither be wished nor commanded away.

      This is the seed of my idea that we don’t need better people in government, we need better ideas in the people. This is the only way we can turn this Titanic of a world civilization around to avoid a fatal collision. There is a philosophical iceberg that we are approaching at full speed. Steady as you go will not end well. Civilizations of the past have collapsed hitting that iceberg and this one will too unless we change the ideas that guide our thoughts, decisions, and actions for the better.

      I am convinced there is an answer but it won’t be easy to make happen.

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      • #
        KinkyKeith

        Trump has the notion that this current mindset can’t be fixed piece by piece.

        The entire structure has to be demolished and a new start made.

        51

      • #
        Geoff Sherrington

        Roy,
        Same year we bought a $1,500 (wholesale) Sony transcription CD player. Already has nice speakers, about was memorable. No hiss, ultimate clarity, intelligent recording engineers.
        When we downsized 10 yrs ago we had to toss the Sony. It was still working properly. Now you can get similar performance from a $100 CD/DVD machine. Digital is wonderful.
        Geoff

        20

  • #
    ken h

    Other countries that are paying attention should probably thank you for being the canary in the coal mine.

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    • #
      Ross

      Yes ken h.
      I think President Trump will be thanking SA in the next 12 months or so as he will be able to point to real situation (on a significant scale) as to why renewables are not reliable and coal still has a major role to play in electricity production.

      60

  • #
    Harry Passfield

    Solution for SA – and any other country being screwed by ‘ruinables’: Instead of giving ruinables first dibs, ie: priority of supply, make them contingent. Tell them to get to the back of the queue for supply and then only pay them the average price of existing supply (coal/gas/etc) whenever they are needed to fill a gap in demand.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      The Cooper-Eromanga basin in SA has huge supplies of gas.

      That is what SA should be using to produce electricity, not some intermittent, unreliable wind source.

      This renewable junk and the RET supporting it, has to go. !

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      • #
        clive

        SA has about 300 trillion tons of coal in reserve.Why do they keep banging their heads against a brick wall?Are they really that thick?

        30

    • #
      AndyG55

      “whenever they are needed to fill a gap in demand”

      That will invariably be when they CAN’T supply ! :-)

      82

    • #
      Analitik

      No, renewables should not be discriminated against. Repeating what I wrote in another thread about repealing the LRET.

      ===========================================================

      The LRET with its RECs is a political tug of war that will require immense political negotiation and campaigning to repeal. And it is only half the reason that renewables have been able to undermine the operation and profitability of thermal generators.

      Priority access to the market via the “semi-dispatchable” classification, where the renewable generators can produce whenever they are capable, regardless of demand and market bids AND are not required to provide any guarantee of supply is the other half of the equation of doom.

      Renewables need BOTH the direct financial support of the RECs and the heedless operating freedom provided by market priority access to survive and thus blight our grids and countryside. Of the 2, the crucial importance of market priority access would not be well comprehended by the vast majority of the politicians nor the electorate. Removing the “semi-dispatchable” classification and making renewable generators bid ahead and guarantee supply (else face fines) would barely raise a political ripple vs the bun fight the killing the LRET would entail. It could be sold to the masses as recognition that renewables are “mature” and “reliable” and can thus operate in the same manner as thermal generators.

      I appreciate that the LRET is fundamentally repugnant since it lends credence to the CAGW / carbon pollution scam and should be scrapped. But removal of market priority access will kill the wind (and solar) farms just as effectively and I contend, far more quickly and easily.

      [Graeme No.3 suggested this would just cause a mass installation of OCGT generators]

      As long as the wind farms have to supply the OCGT generated electricity at the amount and rate they bid the previous day and for the period specified, then that’s fine by me. Their installation and running costs will far exceed the REC value.

      It’s a lose/lose situation. If they raise their bid price to cover the possibility of having to run the OCGTs, then they will price themselves out of the market. If they bid at a competitive rate, the running costs of the OCGTs will destroy their profitability, even if with the REC support. Plus they would often have to curtail as they often could not bid anywhere near their namplate capacity else there would be no hope of supplying if the wind dropped out unless they built OCGT capacity almost equal to the nameplate capacity of the farm.

      Market bids are a contractual obligation with financial penalties for non-compliance. That someone as knowlegable, experienced and clear thinking as you haven’t seen that removing their current exemption from this gives me confidence that this exemption could be removed without a protracted political fight.

      [Graeme No.3 warned of the OCGTs receiving RECs for their power]

      The price of a REC would not cover the running cost of an OCGT – not by a long shot. The price is capped by the LRET shortfall penalty which is around $93 and usually gets traded far lower.

      These wind farm support OCGTs would be deemed “green” anyway since they are the wind farms’ “backup” so all power produced is supplied by the “green” source. It doesn’t matter – financially, they would be ruined. That someone as knowlegable, experienced and clear thinking as you hasn’t seen that removing their current exemption from this would destroy them, financially, gives me confidence that this exemption could be removed without a protracted political fight.

      [KinkyKeith wondered about our discussion being written in a manner for the greens and climate catastrophists to understand]
      KinkyKeith, I don’t want The Greens and climate Catastrophists to understand or relate to what I am saying.

      I want them to blindly think that all the renewable generators need is a “little” financial support and that renewables produce predictable power so they think that having them operate like thermal generators is reasonable and even desirable (since it gives them the opportunity to bid higher rates than the RECs and PPAs provide).

      =========================================

      KinkyKeith then commented on the unlikelyhood of the greenwash pushing for equality for renewables.

      Well, propose a honey trap :) – let the wind farms bid amount, period and rate as per other generators (and face the same compliance rules) and let them keep earnings from this in addition to the PPA and REC earnings.

      How can they argue against this? It is recognition of the “maturity” and “reliability” of renewables that they can forecast their output and gives them further earnings!!

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        Rod Stuart

        AMEN to that.

        20

      • #
        Harry Passfield

        But removal of market priority access will kill the wind (and solar) farms just as effectively and I contend, far more quickly and easily.

        Not a bad start…

        30

      • #
        Graeme No.3

        On a previous post ROM wrote
        Which I think is now the requirement put in place by the Spanish government for wind farms and solar farms if they want to be paid and collect any subsidies for their power input to the grid.

        Failure to meet those predictions that have to be lodged some 24 hours in advance of the proposed energy output by the renewables to the Spanish grid, a policy in part created to allow the grid operators to plan ahead as well as reel in the gross abusing of the subsidy system by the renewable energy scammers, leads to large fines and loss of income for the renewable energy generators.

        And I suggested
        We could call Analitik’s plan The Spanish Solution. That would appeal to the Greens as they consider Spain is a renewables success story.
        Posing is easy when you plagiarise.

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        • #
          Graeme No.3

          Bloody spell checkers. Posting not posing, the latter is what the Trolls do when one of them condecends to instruct us in AGW BS.

          20

      • #
        AndyG55

        As I’ve said before.

        Give it a level laying field, and wind and solar with disappear into the sunset.

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      • #
        Geoff Sherrington

        Analitic,
        Nice summary of ways to satisfy the “Politics is the art of the possible” type of maxim.
        I remain gobsmacked that schemes like RET were commenced when there was abundant and compelling evidence damning the concept.
        Geoff

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  • #
    Jacob Ingliss

    Nothing to see here then

    21

  • #
    Bob Cherba

    Reply to “ken h” #18

    Unfortunately, while other countries should learn from SA’s renewable energy failure, few if any will. Politicians who support renewable energy around the world will think they’re smarter than the SA politicians and will tweek the SA plans to “make them work.” It’s just like the ever-present communists and socialists who insist past failures occurred only because the people who were in power weren’t as intelligent and talented as the current flock of believers. Besides, we now have computers.

    It irritates me that new installations of industrial solar and wind power are touted as being able to serve X-thousands of homes. Left out is that they can do it only a few hours a day, about 25% of the time. And when it’s really hot or cold or stormy, their output is zero.

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    PhilJourdan

    As we have seen in the Colonies, that is how the socialists operate. First they create a crises, then they nationalize the industry to fix the crises they created. Government is fast to create solutions to problems that either do not exist or they create. But almost never retire the programs once they are no longer needed.

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    • #
      Curious George

      Ronald Reagan Quotes. Government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.

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    • #
      Rod Stuart

      The Hegelian Dialectic.

      20

    • #
      Andrew McRae

      As if on cue…
      ‘Smart’ air conditioners could help reduce blackouts
      http://www.9news.com.au/national/2017/02/11/09/01/smart-aircon-could-help-cut-blackouts

      Hang on, for some people (such as the elderly) their air conditioners are more important to survival in summer than food refrigerators.
      But the eco-warriors want to switch off your air-con remotely for whatever reason they like and for as long as they want.
      It’s less Daikin and more “die,kin”!

      And the bit about alternating five minutes with your neighbour must be the introductory offer.
      It will only be off for 5 minutes out of every 10.
      It will only be off for 9 minutes out of every 15.
      It will only be off for 14 minutes out of every 20.
      It will only be off for 19 minutes out of every 24, or 5 minutes in 10 for customers of our Federally-accredited GreenPower scheme…

      It’s called “Demand Management” in the business.

      “The missing link for cheap and reliable electricity”

      wtf!!? No that’s coal and nuclear power, ffs. If you had reliable electricity you wouldn’t be talking about any Demand Management malarkey.

      Every other Demand Management article I’ve read has said the customer retains the ability to “decline” the curtailment command and continue running the device but at a greater penalty or surge pricing. I do hope it is just journalistic laziness which has lead to no such reassurances being issued in this article about the Australian market. For some people an air conditioner in a heat wave is the difference between life and death, not the difference between discomfort and opulence, and such folk ought to at least be able to pay more to keep breathing. Just wait until DM becomes mandatory the same way old incandescent light bulbs became illegal… and perhaps instigated by the same politician if he’s quick about it.

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      • #
        Lewis P Buckingham

        Smart technology allows selection of clients.
        Those who have elected for renewables, AKA wind should be the first to have power reduced when the wind does not blow.
        This would then put a nexus between wanting green power and being responsible for the outcome.
        At the moment innocent people suffer, caught by incompetence.
        All politicians who advocate green power should be patched into this system.
        That way load shedding would affect the elites and the rich, rather than the poor.

        20

  • #
    Curious George

    I sympathize with poor SA citizens, but not with gullible SA voters.

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    • #
      PeterS

      Correct – let them suffer much more pain. Perhaps then and only then will the voters wake up and act accordingly.

      40

      • #
        Crakar24

        We need to suffer more Pete, the more we suffer the more we reject the gov and their green agenda however the alternative is no better and therein lies the problem

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    • #
      Raven

      The SA commenters here are just fine . . there’s nothing personal.

      We just need them to take one for the team.
      Onya fellers. :)

      10

  • #
    Ruairi

    Electrical engineers cringe,
    At the mess by the lunatic fringe,
    Let loose on the grid,
    And the damage they did,
    On their warmist renewable binge.

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  • #
    jorgekafkazar

    The solution to failed Socialism is always more Socialism. Onward to total collapse, comrades! All is for the worker! Whatever is left shall be Left! What a glorious victory we shall claim we have, as we sit in the dark and ponder the joys of die-electric materialism!

    /sarc

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  • #
    TdeF

    As usual, Weatherill and his minister are blaming everyone else. The simple facts are

    1. there was no problem to be fixed
    2. the entire mess is due to government intervention

    The massive tax scheme which is the RET, doubling electricity prices and dramatically reducing coal fired electricity, making privately owned coal power patently unprofitable is entirely the work of politicians, not industry. Why else would Hazelwood close? Hazelwood is running South Australia at present, not the windmills.

    The public of Australia does NOT want coal station closed.

    This is a politician made disaster. They were not elected to close power stations. The rolling disaster which is South Australia and soon every Eastern state is entirely the fault of Weatherill and his friends including Malcolm Turnbull. These power stations took a generation to build and they are being turned off in a year. We did not have a problem!

    Tony Abbott has demanded the end to the RET. Stop this and electricity halves, power stations come on line and the problem is over. So the politician solution is more power, less electricity, higher prices. Politicians are the problem. Stop the Renewable Energy Tax now!

    In the Victorian parliament this week, the Liberals agree with Labor agreed with the Greens to stop gas exploration in Victoria too. Why? Politicians on all sides are all trying to please someone I do not know, chasing every obscure vote and destroying the joint.

    Stop the RET. No one voted for this. Allow gas exploration. Who said fracking was dangerous? There are a million wells with not a single problem, but stopping everything is what politicians do. Self serving and ignorant and uncaring politicians are the problem. Stop the RET now.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      “Stop the RET now.”

      hmmm.. TdeF.. you seem to be trying to say something. ;-)

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      • #
        TdeF

        The RET is amazing and typical of the modern political scene in Australia. We elect politicians who then decide they are licenced to do as they please, regardless of the people they represent. They try to please their friends, the press, the ABC and other interests. No, they are elected to represent the people who put them there.

        I can only guess that no one in South Australia wants blackouts. No one wants the highest electricity prices in the world. No one wants to lose their jobs. However the politicians are not there to please the electors. They are on a mission from God. Apparently.

        The RET is the only problem. It can be removed in a day.

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        • #
          Annie

          Correction TdeF; they are on a mission from the dev1l.

          40

        • #
          TdeF

          The RET is a tax on all ‘fossil’ fuels
          Currently LGCs at $90 per megawatt, 9c kw/hr for the right to sell electricity. Why? Like solar, operators can dump unwanted power into the system and earn nothing because they get 9c anyway. Neither are power on demand and useless when the sun does not shine or the wind does not blow or even when it does.

          Sovereign risk is something politicians throw up when they do not really want to do something. In actual fact they could not care, as demonstrated by Weatherill. As for sovereign risk in cancelling the RET, who cares that the French paid $2.5bn for Hazelwood which they are being forced to close. Who cares that the Victorian government just increased the price of our coal by 300% without so much as an explanation at the time? Now the explanation is that the price had not changed for a decade, but 300%? No worry about sovereign risk there.

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        • #
          TdeF

          We see this with gay marriage. It is of little concern to most Australians but the current government went to an election with a promise of a plebiscite. Like BREXIT.

          Now Turnbull refuses to rule out politicians making the decision for us and the NSW faction which controls the Liberals is very much in favor, led by an openly gay politician Zimmerman who took Hockey’s seat. So once again we could end up with something the people do not want. This God complex, ego driven self interested politicians is killing us.

          Why did everyone fight so hard to stop the carbon tax when the RET is a bipartisan imposition which is driving coal out of business and shutting down our country? It is not about ‘renewables’. It is about closing coal and gas generation and even exploration. This massive self harm is being done to us by our politicians.

          We need a newspoll or Galaxy poll on the RET, the biggest and most destructive carbon tax in the world, all couched in the language of niceness, incentives, rewards, encouragement and the word carbon is not used once. We need to raise awareness.

          How many people in South Australia want the RET? A poll would shake Weatherill and Turnbull up. No point in Victoria. Andrews openly does not care what anyone in the public thinks. He dances to the tune of the Unions but why the Liberals back him is beyond logic.

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    • #
      clive

      The Germans have been fracking since before WW2,without any problem.So why aren’t”WE?”

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      • #

        Merkel’s “government” has banned further fraccing in Germany. Horizontal drilling in combination with fraccing could make Germany independent of foreign (mainly Russian) gas supplies.

        Merkel’s trade restrictions on imports from Russia (after the EU fuelled and ignited a coup in Ukraine, leading to Russia taking back Crimea to secure a port on the Black Sea, independent of NATO/EU) specifically exclude gas. Gas (and oil) is one of Russia’s most lucrative export; but Merkel’s “determination” to “punish” Russia for taking back Crimea is too weak; and to permit a measure of energy sovereignty by lifting the ban on domestic fraccing.

        40

        • #
          TdeF

          Russia is already substantially on the Black Sea at Sochi and further the Sea of Azov. It matters little in a Nuclear age with this talk of warm sea ports. Besides you cannot get out with the shallow 40km Bosphoros, then the Dardenelles and then the Aegean and finally to the Pillars of Hercules. The Russian navy was totally bottled up in WW2 and remains so. This was not about a ‘warm sea port’. Getting an aircraft carrier to Syria recently was farcical.

          Further the Crimea was always Russian and everyone there is Russian, except the Tartars who were expelled by Stalin. Visit the Crimea memorial in London from the punitive English/French war against the Russians.

          In 1954 the Peninsula, almost an island was a gift to the Ukraine by Kruschev and the people wanted to go home. Anyone over 63 was born in Russia. It’s the Ukraine which is a mess, criminal and dangerous.

          As an economic basket case, the Crimea is a real burden to either country and it represents only 2% of the land area of the giant Ukraine. However the Donbass region is a different matter and the war continues there, but of little interest to Europe at the moment.

          Of course the Russians who fought great battles in against the Germans and before that the French and the English in the Crimea. The last great battles were only 70 years ago and understandably they do not trust the Germans, the French or the English or even the Americans. The situation is not as simple as people think with good guys and bad guys. It is the Ukrainian government who has the leader of the Orange revolution former President Tymoshenko in jail.

          20

  • #
    tom0mason

    Federal Minister for the Environment and Energy Josh Frydenberg said the SA Government should have declared an emergency on Wednesday to direct Pelican Point to be turned on.

    “Under the rules, it is solely up to the South Australian Government to decide if there was an emergency, and in doing so be in a position to direct Pelican Point to supply,” he said.

    Ain’t that a favorite of all left-wing governments the world over — screw-up with inane bureaucratic decisions when engineering (or medical, or educational etc.) skill is required. Then when it’s all turned to crud announce ‘emergency measures’ to ensure the situation gets worse while the ‘plausible deniability’ cover-up begins.

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  • #
    Robber

    Another hot day ahead in SE Australia, and the wind currently:
    Adelaide – CALM (0 km/hr)
    Melbourne – CALM
    Sydney – CALM
    Now that is a state of emergency when you are relying on wind.
    When will the dumb politicians recognize that their policies are blowing in the …umm?

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  • #
    PeterS

    I wished Hazelwood was already closed to teach everyone especially the voters a very important truth about the absolute necessity for more not less base load power. SA would most likely have suffered several total blackouts over the past days to prove the so called experiment with a high reliance on renewables is a total disaster.

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    • #
      TdeF

      So it has come to this. Wishing harm on everyone to teach ourselves a lesson. I cannot agree. Those hospitals shut down, people trapped, people dead, businesses ruined. That is like declaring war on ourselves to teach ourselves a lesson.

      Politicians are not there to run the place. It is not their country. We do not exist for Canberra, as Trump says. Canberra exists to look after our interests and if they wreck the joint, they should be held responsible. Punishing ourselves to teach politicians a lesson is no good. Visiting the utter disaster in South Australia on Tasmania, Victoria and NSW just to educate politicians is crazy. They should lose their jobs, their pensions, their gold passes and walk home.

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      • #
        TdeF

        We see this at every level of politics. Councils deciding to take side on Israel. Universities on coal mining investments. Self important people put in positions to do a specific job deciding then that they were put there to make monumental decisions about the fate of the world instead of making sure the streets are maintained and the rubbish is collected. Then travelling the world at our expense to see their area of responsibility, even to COP21 and talking with their peers who also run the planet.

        We need a Trump revolution here and an end to creeping taxation to pay for the dreams of politicians. My Land tax for example went up 50% this year. Why? Council rates are soaring. Plus we now have to pay for a 300% increase in the cost of our own coal. This is politician made disaster and greed. We do not exist for them.

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        • #
          toorightmate

          Trump is draining the swamp.
          The likes of Turnbull, Bishop, Shorten and Weatherdill are part of that swamp.

          10

      • #
        PeterS

        I agree with your sentiments but the fact remains governments are only there because the people voted them into power. The blame rests with the people not the government if the voters keep voting them back in despite knowing their intentions and policies. How bad do things have to go before the voters wake up? Clearly it’s a lot. As for wishing for Hazelwood to be closed sooner so they can suffer more well it’s going to be closed down soon anyway. I was just making the point it’s a shame it wasn’t already closed to demonstrate how serious the situation is. Perhaps you prefer to wish the problem would go away and hope that we don’t have a repeat of low winds, heat waves, storms, etc. and avoid the need for SA to rely so much on the interconnect from Victoria. No, I prefer the truth and facts. SA has announced with great gusto they are the experiment to show that a high reliance on renewables is the way to go. On that basis alone SA clearly must suffer much more pain to allow reason to penetrate the thick skulls of SA voters.

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        • #
          TdeF

          I take your point. They were voted in and therefore the voters are at fault. I reject that.

          What I am objecting to is that while the government has a real job to do with education, health, police, emergency services, transport they decide they have been put in place to pronounce on the US elections, Israel, China and especially the weather and ‘Climate Change’?

          Not a scientist, meteorologist or rationalist among them. So they copy the opinions of their colleagues who are all against Global Climate Change Warming or whatever. Rising seas. Dying Polar bears. Gay Marriage. Social Engineering. Safe Schools and gender. Stuff like that. Nothing to do with the election. Disastrous fringe issues where no one is at risk.

          That was not the platform on which they were elected, which was, among other things, to ensure that the people of South Australia had adequate, reliable, cheap electricity as they had when the took government. In fact Weatherill and friends seem delighted that the place is disaster area, babies, old people and trapped people are at risk. Businesses are devastated but Weatherill and friends are proud of their achievement in saving the world? That is wrong. They would be charged with criminal neglect if they ran a private company.

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          • #
            PeterS

            I accept all of what you said except that I still stick to the fact the voters are to blame. Just look at the federal level. ALP want 50% renewables by 2030 yet they are very likely to win the next election. I don’t care much for Turnbull (in fact he is a ?????) but the alternative is far worse. Yet voters prefer to elect the opposition into power. OK let them. See how long before they start to cry fowl when they already knew all the facts beforehand. It’s just pure ignorance and stupidity so they deserve whatever they get because to be frank they asked for it; literally.

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            • #

              TdeF and PeterS,

              The problem lies in the failure of representative democracy. In theory, it is fine – until the pretty PR girls and the wealthy corporations get at our fake representatives.

              The only solution that is proven to work is the Swiss model of direct democracy. No wars, little immigration, unknown politicians, excellent educational system, different languages co-existing in one tiny place, high quality of life and world-leading products.

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  • #

    Oh no! Not only do observation and data not support the underlying global warming hypothesis the models are built on, now Anon Y. Mitty” says ‘So kvetching about conkvetchion is beside the point.’

    Anon has a point!
    The underlying global warming hypothesis the models support has always been based on the mistaken Idea that IR-EMR exit flux originates at Earth’s surface. The S-B equation now can be used to show that the minimum radiometric temperature of whatever is ‘radiating’ must be at least 255 K, but the surface has a higher thermometric temperature. The atmosphere is measured to have temperatures bracketing that minimum, thus demonstrating that exit flux originates somewhere in the atmosphere. Never from the surface. Can we all go back to sleep and put this scam behind us?

    It is the on and on kvetching about atmospheric CO2 levels that encourages the inherent human trait of scamming others for fame or profit! There is absolutely no ‘science’ whatsoever in any of the CAGW SCAM!

    Richard Betts says: 10 Feb 17 at 5:07 pm

    ” I think we all know that it’s the long-term trend that counts.”

    The long term statistical nonsense ‘global average temperature’ counts only for those promoting the scam! You are supposedly learned! Can you give us a technical definition of thermometric, thermodynamic, or radiometric “temperature”?:

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  • #
    • #
      Rick Will

      This is taken from that link:

      “Plenty of wind power generation coming in from the wind turbines along the great dividing range.

      “It’s the biggest day ever for solar.”

      I expect you could almost guarantee plenty of solar output on a hot day but it would be quite low at 6pm. Having wind power was dumb luck.

      The load management at Tomago, dropping total NSW demand by 10%, will result in compensation for them. It is usual to have that in a smelter supply contract these days.

      20

  • #
    Dennis

    I am truly amazed that with the now years of reported yearly hottest ever campaign underway that life on Earth has not ceased.

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  • #
    TedM

    “the price of coal-fired power (which is becoming uncompetitive against renewables)” At best this statement is a matter of smoke and mirrors, at worst a ball faced lie. The only reason that the cost of gas and coal fired power are increasing is because they are being used to ptop up wind and solar and so spend most of their time running at a small percentage of their capacity and so are operating inefficiently, not to forget the $11b of taxpayers money, over four years to fund them.

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  • #
    Robert Rosicka

    FOI request by Telegraph paper finds a report to the SA government from the AEMO , warning them of exactly what happened on Wednesday night .
    But The minister refuses to admit ever seeing the report , a friend of mine always said to be a good at lying you need to have a good memory .

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  • #
    redress

    There is only one solution. We must unwind the subsidies and regulatory interventions that have created the problems. Governments spend or impose regulatory costs like the renewable subsidies that amount to about $5 billion a year. These are poisoning the economy as well as costing each household $500 per year.

    https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/doomed-planet/2017/02/loon-turn-blackout/

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    • #
      toorightmate

      That little subsidy is about $1,000 per taxpayer per year.
      We are now paying more for “power” subsidies than we are for Medicare – is that just a bit ridiculous?

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    Oliver K. Manuel

    We are only now starting to see the long-term consequences of more than seventy-one years of purposeful deception (24 OCT 1945 – 11 FEB 2017) after frightened world leaders united the nations and national academies of sciences “to try to save themselves and the world from nuclear annihilation by hiding the source energy in atomic bombs, from the public: Neutron Repulsion.

    The late Professor Paul Kazuo Kuroda was the first nuclear scientist to examine the ruins of Hiroshima in AUG 1945. Kuroda risked the rest of his life trying to prevent Stalin from using the UN and the UNAS (United National Academies of Sciences) from using science to deceive and control humanity:

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10640850/TRIBUTE_TO_KURODA.pdf

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  • #
    Robert Rosicka

    So more interconnectors are the answer , given the load shedding going on now and threats of load shedding does that not mean there is not enough supply or barely enough .
    When Hazelwood closes South Australias life support interconnectors will either be shut off or permanently disconnected when Victoriastan has low supplies or does Victoriastan intend to load shed in favour of South Australia’s requirements .
    We can only share what electricity capacity is in the system , when the system is maxed out load shedding and states being blacked out will occur , not if but when .

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    • #
      TdeF

      The SA grid will not work without big base load generators. It is why orchestras have conductors. The problem with AC distribution is that everything has to match precisely and by definition, solar and wind are intermittent and highly variable. When Hazelwood closes, South Australia will close.

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      • #
        Konrad

        No, No. The Victorian energy minister has announced that the loss of 2.5GW when Hazelwood shuts down will be compensated by mysterious “grid scale batteries”. Apparently these will be installed right after the alien mother-ship delivers them.

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        • #
          TdeF

          Exactly
          Hon Liliana (Lily) D’Ambrosio BA 1986 (Melb), DipPubPol (Melb).
          Minister for Energy, Environment and Climate Change

          Occupational Health and Safety Training Officer, Liquor and Hospitality Workers Union 1986-88.
          Organiser, Australian Services Union 1988-94.
          ALP State Organiser 1994-99.
          Interests gardening, cooking, family, odd jobs around the house, reading crime fiction.

          She would know about technology.

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          • #
            Annie

            You definitely didn’t need a sarc/ tag there TdeF. I wonder where these ‘grid scale batteries’ are being produced? How soon can she arrange for them to be shipped in?

            How do such low-grade politicians become appointed to such posts?

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          • #
            Raven

            Well, she reads ‘crime fiction’ so with a little dedication I expect she could turn that fiction into reality.

            20

          • #
            Hivemind

            “reading crime fiction”

            So now we know how she will read the postmortem on this little shemozzle. But seriously, let’s not criticise this hopeless low-grade union functionary. It isn’t her fault that she has been put into this position that she is constitutionally incapable of fulfilling.

            I mean, training officer, organiser, another organiser. These are not the sort of jobs you want somebody with the power to black out an entire state. So why is WeatherDill so surprised that exactly that has happened.

            10

        • #
          gnome

          I want to know why none of the people’s protectors in the media have asked that minister where these batteries are, how much they store etc.

          Letting a minister get away with stupidity on that level is as much a scandal as the minister’s incompetence.

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        • #

          Please beware of that alien mother-of-a-ship delivering WA HO!! Woud jew lookat dat?? :-)

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        • #
          Willard

          Perhaps Jo can start a thread called the “Fallacy of modern grid scale battery storage” and you and your mates Konrad can laugh and make jokes, then we can all look back on the thread in the next 2 to 3 years and laugh and make jokes about Konrad and his mates who failed to do a little research.

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          • #

            Willard,

            when I read comments from people like you, I bite my tongue usually, and don’t reply, because it’s patently obvious that you have no real idea.

            Willard, go and look at the image at this link, and hey, you’ll have to do a bit of work to get the image required here, but I think you can do it.

            Once you arrive at the link, scroll down to that second image there.

            When that image is mid screen, click the button at top right that says MW.

            What you see there is an actual load Curve for power generation, just for fossil fuels.

            That power is not just airy fairy, there all the time, and bits and pieces of it being used, because that power is actually being consumed by everyone East of the WA border all of the time.

            Note, Willard, the low point there, That’s 19,000MW at around 3AM to 4AM, when you’re tucked up tightly in bed, and then rising to around 28,000MW plus during the day.

            NINETEEN THOUSAND MEGAWATTS at its minimum point.

            Willard, please explain to me the renewable technology that will actually be able to generate that on that constant basis, because that’s as low as it drops to, because all other consumption is on top of that.

            Now, once you’ve explained the technology to generate that power, and Willard, as a Battery supporter, and Lithium gung ho supporter, please explain to all of us here the Battery technology which will supply a constant 19,000MW PLUS for all that time, Willard, 24 hours of every day, 365 days of every year, and to do that forever.

            Waiting, waiting, waiting.

            And remember Willard, in your own words, the result is barely two to three years away. I’m absolutely certain Willard, that you will not be the one who is laughing.

            Tony.

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              Willard

              I’m not saying it will replace 19,000MW plus in the next 2-3 years, you know that and also you probably know a lot more about the reasons why power suppliers are keen ( and in some locations already have) to install large scale battery storage- it makes financial sense, unfortunatly you’d rather be on the “knock to battery storage side”. If you have clear evidence why large scale battery storage won’t take hold please provide them, providing gems like ” the batteries won’t last 7 years” doesn’t cut it in 2017, better still if you have nothing good to say about the subject don’t say anything at all because in 2-3 years you’re going to look a bit outdated.

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                Robert Rosicka

                Dear Dullard , you say again in two to three years for battery storage to take off? Get better ? Become more efficient ? Be the answer to all our prayers whatever .
                If at all maybe 20 years we may see something maybe until then turn the power off at your main switch so we may have some more .

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                Willard

                Robert Rosicka, the efficency and price has reached a point where it’s financially viable and as each month goes past both those factors improve even more, the reason it will take time is production can’t keep up with demand.

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              • #
                TdeF

                Willard, you have joined a cargo cult, dreaming of a future which does not exist, hoping that chemistry and fate will combine to make you right. It is not whether wind can match coal, it cannot. It is whether the output of coal can be stored. It cannot, except in your dreams.

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            Rick Will

            Willard
            If you have some notion that the grid instability can be resolved in 2 to 3 years using modern battery technology you are horribly off the mark. I have done the research. In fact that is hands on research as I am one of the few people who run off-grid using current solar, lithium battery and off-grid inverter technology. Having bought the components when the Australia dollar was its most favourable, the system cost 4 years ago was substantially lower than it is today. I did the installation myself so labour was free. My financing charge is income foregone from term deposits so about as low as it could be. My average power cost over the 25 year life of the system will be 52c/kWh, which is just under 10 times the average wholesale cost of power into the NEM in 2016.

            The grid scale AGL solar plants at Broken Hill and Nyngan have a combined capacity of AUDM440 with rated capacity of 155MW to give unit cost of AUD2838/kWh. I paid AUD1000/kWh for my array. The roof space was free and the mounting brackets are inexpensive.

            The Kingfisher solar/battery project gets 100MW solar array and a 100MWh battery for AUD400M. With an estimated spilt of AUD2200/kW for the array and AUD1800/kWh for the battery, charge controller and inverter. My battery/inverter cost was AUD500/kWh. Does not include the cabinet and space it occupies in the garage. My cost were substantially lower than the commercial projects so they will need to target grid price spikes to be economic.

            The reason there are price spikes is because there is a scheduling issue created by the intermittent generators. As more batteries are introduced the grid gets more stable so the price spikes disappear. So this solution becomes uneconomic as it gets scaled up.

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              Willard

              52 cents per Kwh over 25 years Rick, it’s now down 23 cents per KWh based on a 10 year calculation.
              Every new player that enters the market and every new battery production facility drives costs down more.

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              • #
                Rick Will

                Willard
                What is your basis for 23c/kWh. I bet you cannot guaranteed supply at 4am on the 21st of June in Melbourne at 23c/kWh without a fossil fuel source backing it up.

                The whole grid unreliability stems from giving market priority to intermittent generation over dispatchable generation without any compensation.

                Even at 23c/kWh it is still near 5 times the 2016 NEM wholesale price.

                I could get lower than 52C/kWh if I installed a small generator but that is not on the cards unless i take the whole house off grid and the possibility of running out of roof space.

                I get 66c/kWh for exported power from the on-grid system that exports more by removing load to off-grid supply so I am still ahead economically and I have learnt a lot about the dimensions of intermittent generation. I just kept adding panels and battery capacity until I had enough margin to get through June in Melbourne. Missed one day in 4 years so better than 99.9% reliability of supply.

                I can see the possibility of off-grid household systems being the lowest cost option in a few years but that will require 1. an improved supply chain into Australia for the equipment 2. the distributors and retailers continuing with their bloated price structures and 3. maintaining the push for intermittent generation on the grid so the wholesale price has an upward trajectory. None of these will help heavy industries in Australia.

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                Willard

                Rick- breaking this into 2- large scale battery storage is keenly looked at by the power providers for financial reasons, AGL may talk up the enviroment but $$$ saved is very attractive.
                Some householders are going Battery because they want to make more use of solar. Then there’s the group that want power stability, the power went off for at least 4th time in SA in 6 months for a lot of householders and business, I bet there was a few hundred thousand p&$@ed off citizens on Wednesday, I bet the phones were running hot to battery installers on Thursday, I bet the answer was “certainly Sir, get in the queue” suddenly the discussion on whether battery storage is cost effective or not is forgotten.

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              • #
                Rick Will

                Willard
                You have not given the basis for the 23c/kWh in your reply.

                No doubt there is enormous potential to profit from the mess in SA power supply. With current daily price fluctuations a grid scale battery could be extremely profitable. I also have no doubt that there are now people wanting to take control of their own destiny with regard to energy supply – that was partly my motive for my off-grid project.

                The end result for SA will be loss of all energy intensive industry from the State as power costs rise. There is no economic solution for supplying base load from intermittent generators and battery storage. SA will compete with Tasmania for the ecotourist and possibly winery tours.

                Is that the direction that the whole of Australia should be taking!

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              ROM

              For those who would like to bring themselves up to speed on the status of grid battery storage, maybe this article Deployment of Grid-Scale Batteries in the United States of June 2016 will bring some enlightenment.

              A relevant quote from this article;

              the “levelized cost of storage,” to use the terms of Lazard’s recent analysis, is generally higher than the alternative in every use case.
              Similarly, Hittinger and Lueken argue that falling natural gas prices have adversely affected the revenues of U.S. energy storage projects since 2009, because they must compete with gas turbines for peak shifting purposes.

              Figure 20 displays Lazard’s comparison of various battery chemistries (ranging from $221/MWh to $1247/MWh)

              to gas peakers ( ranging from $165/MWh to $218/MWh).

              —————-

              The second source of grid battery cost analyis is from Euan Mearn’s “Energy Matters” blog.

              I’ll leave it to the power analysis experts here to convert the US dollars Grid Battery costs [ 2016 ]quoted in this article from Energy Matters into numbers that are relevant to the Australian and our States situation.

              The Holy Grail of Battery Storage

              [ quoted ]

              A recent Telegraph article claims that storage battery technology is now advancing so fast that “we may never again need to build 20th Century power plants in this country, let alone a nuclear white elephant such as Hinkley Point” and that the “Holy Grail of energy policy” that will make this solution economically feasible – a storage battery cost of $100/kWh – will be reached in “relatively short order”.
              This brief post shines the cold light of reality on these claims by calculating battery storage costs based on the storage requirements for specific cases estimated in previous Energy Matters posts.
              &
              First a simple calculation.

              $100/kWh = $100,000/MWh.
              $100/kWh = $100 million/GWh.
              $100/kWh = $100 billion/TWh
              If everyone is happy with this we can proceed. (Note that all the costs listed in this post are in US dollars unless otherwise specified).

              &

              Multiplying the storage capacities shown in the Figure by $100 billion/TWh gives the following battery installation costs. Wind and solar installed costs (both estimated at $2,000/kW) are from IRENA :

              Battery storage needed to convert Germany’s 2013 solar generation to baseload: $800 billion, about 13 times the $66 billion cost of installing the ~33GW of solar capacity involved.

              Battery storage needed to convert solar generation equal to a year of Hinkley [ UK ]nuclear generation to baseload: $700 billion, about 28 times the ~$25 billion cost of the Hinkley plant.

              Battery storage needed to convert solar + wind generation equal to a year of Hinkley nuclear generation to baseload: $350 billion, about 14 times the cost of the Hinkley nuclear plant.

              Battery storage required to convert one month of UK wind generation to baseload: up to $500 billion, over twice the $200 billion cost of the ~100GW of wind capacity involved.

              (Note 1: storage requirements for a complete year would likely be significantly higher.

              Note 2: the lower-storage options discussed in the “estimating storage requirements” post are achieved by increasing wind capacity and curtailing large amounts of wind power.)

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              • #
                Rick Will

                ROM
                That battery cost data is not relevant to Australia. I have done a full analysis based on actual output of the solar plant in Broken Hill and the NEM demand across eastern Australia. Broken Hill is not the best location for the solar array but it is closer to the centre of load than more northern sites.

                The big difference between Australia and European countries is the mid winter insolation. In Broken Hill it achieved 4.3 hours average full sunlight for June. Germany only manages 1.4 hours average in January.

                So eastern Australia could go 100% intermittent generation from solar using 240GW of panels at Broken Hill and 700GWh of storage to meet the June NEM maximum demand of 25MW. This is the load flow chart:
                https://1drv.ms/i/s!Aq1iAj8Yo7jNgWhZT3VyVmc6zV_2
                The squiggly blue line near the bottom is the 30 minute energy flow in the NEM. I cannot see Australia ever achieving a battery cost of USD100/kWh- that would not cover the time for the installers to scratch their backside let alone chase flies. On my figure of AUD500/kWh and Solar at AUD2000/kW, Australia can achieve the holy grail of energy supplies for a mere AUD850bn. The size of the solar array would be smaller if it was located near Alice Springs, which averages 6.2 hours of full sunlight through June but offset to some degree by higher transmission costs.

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              • #
                ROM

                No real argument here Rick.

                That[ US ] $100 per KWh of battery storage quoted from the UK Telegraph was I would think, a reporter or a battery researcher scratching his cojones while he tried to think up a figure that wouldn’t get him pilloried by all concerned and from every quarter.

                Gotta keep the moola rolling in from the investors and the bureaucratic government funders so make some promises of progress that appear to have a foundation but which you can back out of very fast when the questions get harder to answer.

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              • #
                Willard

                Rick/Rom, Grid scale storage is for grid stability not grid domination.
                Your point on cost per unit of energy when installation cost is relevant, more so on home installations. One factor that’s bringing down the cost of the actual battery pack is removal of wasted transport, basically building the factory as close to the materials as possible, this hasn’t been done enough before, if battery makers don’t get as close to vertical integration as possible they won’t compete.

                39

              • #
                Rick Will

                Willard
                A few small batteries on the SA grid is not going to benefit stability. With a passing wind front the power supply can dip 800MW in minutes with the present level and siting of wind turbines and be off line for about 5 hours. I do not know what plans are in the pipeline for more of them at or near existing locations. The battery capacity to handle that needs to be around 5GWh. So to solve the existing stability problem, with battery storage, requires around AUD2.5bn at my prices or closer to AUD8bn at Lyon Energy installed prices. I expect there would be a better mix using the dreaded fossil fuel fed GTs but that costs money as well.

                As a matter of interest my Australian source of batteries is now charging AUD180 per 100Ah cell compared with AUD145 when I bought 4 years ago. So no price reduction there.

                So you aim to reduce battery cost by manufacturing them in SA. But hasn’t the State been aiming to rid itself of energy intensive industries. Could you imagine enticing a battery maker from Japan or China to set up a manufacturing plant in SA!!

                I have not yet worked out if there is an economic level of intermittent supply in an industrial power supply network but I have a feeling it will be zero.

                I have some confidence that a large scale battery installation could be operated economically in an unstable grid. I am not certain if it has an economic place in a stable grid. The very fast response might reduce need for spinning reserve. There is also potential to ease bottlenecks in distribution networks that are economic.

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            • #
              KinkyKeith

              Good outline Rick. Thanks.

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          • #
            Wally

            I’m an electrical engineer. 30 years ago when I graduated, better batteries were just around the corner.

            Still waiting.

            Those lithium high density batteries like in smartphones, that everyone is touting as the solution to all this? Well, trouble is they are knackered after about 1000 charge / discharge cycles. That’s why you can buy spare batteries for your phone.

            Those other exotic batteries that appear in the news now and again… experimental and have been for years.

            In the end its not just capacity that matters, its number of cycles too. Oh and not catching fire would be nice as well.

            Batteries have LOADS of hype but the substance is still over the horizon. It’s all better than 30 years ago, but its not 1-3 years away in spite of what Mr Tesla will tell you.

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            • #
              Willard

              Wally your an electrical engineer with 30 years experience but then compare mobile phone batteries with batteries designed for use in large scale energy storage.

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              • #
                ROM

                Willard.
                Get off your domestic horse re batteries and go run a an aluminium smelter or a steel smelter or a rolling mill or build a dozen submarines using batteries and then come back here and prove your financial case and the practical realities of supply case compared to just using coal and gas and nuclear as our power supply generators.

                Domestic is where you live.
                Industry and commerce pay the wages so that you can afford to live and eat and play.
                And industry and commerce are where the big users of power are located.

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                Willard

                Rom, with all due respect get off your power grid domination high horse and do some research on why grid scale batteries are being implemented.

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              • #

                Phone batteries, tablet batteries, computer batteries, electric tool batteries, car batteries, electric car battery banks, and residential solar panel battery banks or powerwalls are all scaled up versions of the one battery technology.

                In 1972, I spent 6 Months in the Battery Room of an RAAF Base, working on batteries of all types.

                Lead acid batteries, Nicad Batteries. As an electrical tradesman, it was perhaps one of the most intense, and dangerous training I had done, as there were so many differences in types of batteries.

                That 6 Months held me in good stead for the next eight years, especially away on deployments, because whenever anyone wanted to know batteries, they said go see Lang. He’s the expert. For once in my electrical tradesman life, I actually was the expert.

                I have watched battery technology change across the years to where we are now.

                People in the ordinary community look on battery technology as what they can glean ….. and then actually understand for themselves when talking heads in the media try to tell them about it, without the first clue themselves.

                They look on battery technology as for electric cars, and then scaled up to households, and they think that can be scaled up for grid usage.

                Battery storage for personal home use for rooftop solar is at the upper level of only 15 to 20KWH per day, just to supply the power requirements for overnight usage only.

                The whole of grid dream can be broken down into separate grids.

                Look at Sydney which has a constant requirement for 83,000,000KWH per day, all day, every day, year in year out, and compare that to the residential application of 20KWH, and that’s just overnight.

                That Sydney total is for the whole 24 hours. You will have to find a power source to charge those batteries, and at the same time, have them delivering that level of power constantly.

                That 83,000,000KWH is the equivalent of 4.15 MILLION of those residential applications. However, it’s not just for homes, it’s for Industry, Commerce, high rise buildings, and look at that Sydney skyline, around 1MW to 2MW every building, Malls at 15 to 20 MW each, every Coles and Woolies at around 10MW or more each, all of them requiring power for the full 24 hours not just a simple overnight discharge of a 20KWH system.

                I don’t care how far battery technology has advanced, and trust me, it has come an awful long way since 1972, there is no technology which can effectively achieve that level of supply of power.

                Don’t think household, and then just scale it up. It’s a whole new dimension of technology, and it is not two to three years away, no matter what Willard says.

                He can laugh at me and my (perceived) experience all he likes, and tell me I live in the past, but Willard, I’ll still be here in two to three years. Come back then and SHOW ME the batteries supplying those levels of power supply.

                It’s a dream you have been conned into believing.

                Tony.

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                Willard

                Tony- as you say “Phone batteries, tablet batteries, computer batteries, electric tool batteries, car batteries, electric car battery banks, and residential solar panel battery banks or powerwalls are all scaled up versions of the one battery technology.” Yes and No, in some cases slight variations in chemistry, the similarity between a Powerwall 1 and powerwall 2? not much besides the Tesla logo, twice the energy density for the same cost. Does a mobile phone battery have a built in temperature regulator like the car? No. Is it important for the mobile phone battery last for 8 plus years? No, doubtful the phone will last 3 years and if it does who cares a new battery is $20. horses for courses.
                And as I said to Rom,mits not about grid domination its grid stability.

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              • #

                And as I said to Rom,mits not about grid domination its grid stability.

                You still don’t get it do you.

                What size grid are you talking about. You can’t do a little bit of the grid for a little bit of solar power or a little bit of wind power.

                Wind currently has 3% of the grid. You hope to stabilise that, and the batteries for even that are not even operational yet, nor will be in the foreseeable future.

                What about the other 97% of the grid, any grid, anywhere.

                If you cannot do three percent, how the hell do you hope to even manage 100% of the grid.

                You people talk micro and think that is for a macro resolution.

                Tony.

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                stan stendera

                @Willard. How much is Elon Musk paying you????

                42

              • #
                Willard

                Who mentioned wind and solar Tony?

                24

              • #
                Willard

                Stan, why do you think Elon is paying me? It could be LG chem, BYD, Samsung or a dozen other battery “sponsors”

                21

            • #
              toorightmate

              Wally,
              Economic renewable energy was just around the corner forty years ago.
              Sh*t, it sure is a bloody long way to that corner.

              52

              • #
                Willard

                Who mentioned renewable energy? Discussion started at grid scale battery storage, if you’re going to try and change the subject at least be good at it.

                26

              • #
                AndyG55

                its ok dullard, what he meant to say was….

                Economic renewable energy storage is just around the corner….

                ….. forty years away..

                11

          • #
            Konrad

            “you and your mates Konrad can laugh and make jokes”
            I work in design and engineering. Design of Microwave Electo-Themal Thrusters and firing them in the back yard is just a party trick for BBQs. I just use two truck batteries. But achieving NASA space readiness level TRL5 does require an understanding of charge storage technologies including carbon-matrix super capacitors.

            I am laughing, because crazed warmists like yourself and the Victorian minister of energy have no idea what you are blathering about. The age of the Internet means you have to fool all of the people all of the time. In this you have failed.

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              Willard

              Quick ring Sun Edison and get them to remove the grid scale storage they’ve added to the grid in California because some guy in Australia who fires rockets at BBQs said it won’t work.

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              • #
                Willard

                Pretty sure I wrote Sun Edison California Rom, trying to change the subject?

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              • #
                Willard

                May be worth reading if both Sun Edison articles weren’t 10 months old Rom.

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              • #
                ROM

                OK! Give me a link to Sun Edison California and its on line and commercially operating grid sized batteries , a link that has all the specifications included as I am interested in your claims about the commercial viability of those grid sized batteries.

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              • #
                Willard

                https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/14/business/energy-environment/california-big-batteries-as-power-plants.html
                Try this one Rom, NYT, not everyone’s cup of tea but it covers a few different projects and some history of why. The installations began operating in December but didn’t hit the news sites until this year.

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              • #
                ROM

                So they are still building up those batteries to put on line on the grid at an experimental scale, not as a full on proven commercial grid storage operation as yet which you seemed to imply in your earlier posts.

                And as the spokes lady admitted, “The moment one fails,” Ms. Kennedy said of the big bet on batteries, “they won’t build any more.”
                .

                Up shot is that there are no proven commercial long duration power output grid scale batteries yet in operation.
                .
                Nor is there likely to be for quite sometime yet particularly as the prices of gas for the fast start peakers plus the advent of Trump onto the American political scene drives a very large stake through the whole global warming alarmist meme and subsequently the probable reduction, scaling down, even demise of much of America’s renewable energy industry leading to a return to a steady state, highly efficient coal and gas fired energy generators and a stable grid set up as of old that won’t need any batteries to hold its stability.

                Only a few very small capacity ones, numbers of are not given, I wonder why not?, that supposedly are to act as a form of capacitors on the grid to give some form of a short covering power output until the gas generator peakers can be fired up.

                And I note the regular “will” and “intend to” and etc that is part and parcel of the language around a new system that is not yet operational and at best is still experimental and needs a hell of a lot more money and research before it has any chance of being a viable commercial system.

                And the classic that you will find everywhere that some new and completely untried system that is likely to blow up in somebody’s face, is being foisted onto somebody somewhere;

                The executives involved expressed confidence in the design and reliability, despite Samsung’s recent smartphone problems.
                Not only are these batteries a different configuration than the smartphone units, executives said, but the larger footprint allows for the inclusion of sophisticated monitoring as well as industrial safety and cooling and ventilation equipment.

                And the NYT correction notes at the bottom as quoted;. “The article also misstated the status of an installation of batteries near Chino, Calif., for the utility Southern California Edison. It has been built by Tesla; it is not being built” ???????
                And no specifications, no costs quoted, no capacities given except the usual renewable energy scammers ,” will power xxx many homes” tish!!

                Case dismissed for lack of evidence

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                Willard

                Here’s another link for you Rom, the Tesla installation ( one of 3 from 3 different suppliers) began operation in December, as each installation proves it’s worth financially and reliably more will be built, you believe it won’t, I know it will, let’s see how things pan out over the next few years-
                http://www.seattletimes.com/business/tesla-project-harnesses-batteries-to-bolster-power-grid/

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                AndyG55

                It all depends how much money Elron Musk can keep scrounging from the taxpayer purse.

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              • #
                Willard

                Which countries taxpayers are you referring to Andy?

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              • #
                Willard

                AndyG55
                February 11, 2017 at 9:27 pm
                It all depends how much money Elron Musk can keep scrounging from the taxpayer purse.

                Looks like Andy has a bit of stage fright, can’t answer the question, maybe he was talking about the taxpayer of the good old US of A, the same USA that has a factory full of US workers paying taxes to the U.S. government, the same Tesla that builds ALL of its cars in the USA despite selling 2/3rds of them to overseas markets boosting the US economy, unlike all other U.S. car makers that build cars in other countries such as Mexico and sell them to US citizens on USA soil.

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              • #
                Analitik

                Quick ring Sun Edison and get them to remove the grid scale storage they’ve added to the grid in California because some guy in Australia who fires rockets at BBQs said it won’t work.

                Southern California Edison, not Sun Edison.
                Also note the scepticism of the other utilties on the cost/benefit and reliability eg

                “The reason we don’t have widespread batteries on our system is because it is not cost-effective for us,” said Alice Jackson, vice president for strategic revenue initiatives at Xcel, a giant electricity and gas utility serving eight Western and Midwestern states.

                Also note the total lack of mention of the actual capacity of the battery storage being deployed.

                https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/14/business/energy-environment/california-big-batteries-as-power-plants.html?action=click&contentCollection=Energy%20%26%20Environment%20&module=RelatedCoverage&region=EndOfArticle&pgtype=article

                This article says the new installatin of “396 refrigerator-size stacks of Tesla batteries” are “capable of powering roughly 15,000 homes over four hours”

                https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/business/energy-environment/battery-storage-tesla-california.html

                Do you realise what 15,000 homes is in the context of Southern California? It’s half a small town. Assuming the batteries could output enough power (which is not certain), it would have JUST covered the outage that the 90,000 homes in South Australa experienced last week.

                21

              • #
                Analitik

                This article has the Tesla battery facility’s as being 20MW output and 80 MWh capacity !!!

                https://arstechnica.com/business/2017/01/a-look-at-the-new-battery-storage-facility-in-california-built-with-tesla-powerpacks/

                Get real. Grid batteries may be able to provide some frequency support but significant power supply is a pipedream

                51

              • #
                Willard

                Late to the conversation Analitik and you go head first in to comments without understanding the initial discussion.

                34

              • #
                Analitik

                I read through the comments.
                What’s your beef?

                21

              • #
                AndyG55

                Poor Dullard,

                can’t take being told he is a GULLIBLE twerp.

                Stop taking the lithium.. it is making you totally irrational.

                33

              • #
                AndyG55

                Dullard.. there are far greater minnows that you to fry on the weekend.

                You don’t thing that Tesla doesn’t get massive subsidies where-ever Elron can manage it.

                I bet you wouldn’t find one project of this that is paid for 100% by himself.

                That’s not how he works.

                23

              • #
                AndyG55

                “USA despite selling 2/3rds of them to overseas markets”

                Tell me he doesn’t pocket HEAPS.

                Who sets up the recharge points.. who pays for that.

                SUBSIDY and SCAM.. the Elron Musk way.

                43

              • #
                Willard

                Oh look AndyG has taking to name calling because he has nothing intelligent to add, no surprises there.

                12

              • #
                AndyG55

                Been looking at some of the symptoms of lithium overdose.

                confusion, poor memory, or lack of awareness
                irrational behaviour
                • blurred vision
                • clumsiness or unsteadiness
                diarrhea… (yours appears to be verbal)
                • nausea or vomiting… (oops , that what your comments cause)
                acne or skin rash… a teenage problem., right, dullard.
                Weight gain… get out of granny’s basement and do something !!!

                Trouble is, Lithium is an anti-MANIC treatment.. so they definitely need to up your dose considerably..

                51

              • #
                Willard

                No beef Analitik, just don’t change the subject by adding an scenario that hasn’t been suggested, if you think battery tech is not viable for the reasons it’s starting to be installed now go ahead and provide them with up to date reasons.

                11

              • #
                AndyG55

                “Quick ring Sun Edison”

                Oh, do they still exist ???

                http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2016/04/22/sunedison-is-just-the-latest-casualty-of-the-popping-of-the-easy-money-energy-bubble/#8fe95051f017

                Or did they get someone to bail them out with taxpayer money ?

                32

              • #
                AndyG55

                “he has nothing intelligent to add”

                Sorry I can’t add anything to your hallucinogenic day dreaming.

                20

              • #
                Willard

                Andy dishes out on Tesla, can’t take the reply, must be uncomfortable with the fact that Tesla is the only US car company that builds cars in America employing Americans then sells the cars to overseas markets, unlike those other U.S. car makers that build them in Mexico and sell them back to US taxpayers. So go ahead AndyG55, if the truth makes you squirm take it out on me, a bit of name calling never hurt anyone, just makes you look a bit childish in front of your peers.

                03

              • #
                AndyG55

                A wonder if the massive expansion of lithium mining required to produce the enormous amount of batteries need for this pipe dream will have the same affect on the environment as the neodymium processing for the other failed pipe-dream, wind turbines.

                Environment isn’t important so long as its not in your backyard, is it dullard.

                40

              • #
                AndyG55

                Fantasy dreaming again, hey dullard.

                Tesla builds in USA because of MASSIVE SUBSIDIES.

                Take away the federal funding, and the AGW tax-payer funded Tesla collapses, like all these other subsidised AGW scams.

                40

              • #
                AndyG55

                4.9 BILLION in taxpayer subsidies !!!

                http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html

                Gees, even a dullard could do something with that.

                30

              • #
                AndyG55

                Elron Musk.

                I wonder how much of that $4.9 BILLION is in his personal account ;-)

                20

              • #
                AndyG55

                Come on dullard.. name a major project Musk has done without tax-payer subsidy.

                30

              • #
                AndyG55

                “It all depends how much money Elron Musk can keep scrounging from the taxpayer purse.”

                WOW.. did that get dullard upset. :-)

                Seems that I’m right over the target. :-)

                30

              • #
                AndyG55

                I wonder how US tax-payers feel about paying to set up EV recharge stations in foreign countries, and helping foreign multi-millionaires buy Elron’s cars as a feel good statement.

                31

              • #
                Willard

                The claim of $4.9 million was debunked long ago Andy- http://www.marketwatch.com/story/elon-musk-is-no-corporate-welfare-queen-2015-06-03 good quote from Elon- If I was interested in subsidies I would have got into the oil and gas industry.
                You have to get that chip off shoulder AndyG55, interestingly the discussion was battery storage and you’ve gone after Tesla, have any issues with LG chem, Samsung, Panasonic or any of the German battery suppliers?

                21

              • #
                AndyG55

                “Oh dear…

                Looks like dullard has a bit of stage fright, can’t answer the questions.

                21

              • #
                AndyG55

                That literally debunks nothing despite the headline. The guy relies on govt.

                The article is written by a rabid AGW apostle. Junk.=

                32

              • #
                Willard

                So that’s your response AndyG- “junk”?

                Okay how’s LG chem going in the battery storage market? Got any issues with them? What about Sonec?

                11

              • #
                AndyG55

                slowly, very slowly.. many years away, if ever, before it becomes more than a tiny niche .

                But you know that, don’t you ??

                Or is lithium a hallucinogenic too?

                01

              • #
                AndyG55

                I repeat.. since you seem to avoid anything that goes against your EV kool-aide fantasy.

                How do you think US tax-payers feel about paying to set up EV recharge stations in foreign countries, and helping foreign multi-millionaires buy Elron’s cars as a feel good statement. ?

                $4.9 BILLION in taxpayer funding !!!!!

                21

              • #
                Willard

                EV charge stations in foreign countries that purchased Tesla motor cars? Part of the deal when the car is purchased AndyG, just like the Superchargers that run from Melbourne to Brisbane.

                10

              • #
                AndyG55

                Thanks for CON firming.

                all part of the $4.9 Billion US taxpayer hand-out.

                Odd that you avoided the question

                How do you think US tax payers feel about paying for infrastructure in other countries and subsidising millionaires to buy feel-good cars.

                Hopefully Trump will do something about this scamming from the US taxpayer, and that will be the end of it.

                10

              • #
                AndyG55


                Here are some examples for recharging times: With a single onboard charger plugged into a standard 110-volt outlet, Tesla says you will get 5 miles of range for every hour of charging. From zero to 300 miles would take about 52 hours at that rate. With a single charger connected to a 240-volt outlet, which Tesla recommends, the pace speeds up to 31 miles of range for each hour of charging, and a full 300-mile charge takes less than 9.5 hours.

                Step up to twin chargers on the car and connect to a 240-volt, high-power wall charger (an extra-cost charging unit, not just a 240-volt line) and the charging speed zooms to 62 miles of range per hour, and the total charging time drops to under 4 hours, 45 minutes.

                Really in a hurry? Stop at a Tesla Supercharger station and you can top off the tank with 300 miles of range in just an hour, as long as your Model S is configured with Supercharger capability

                Read more at https://www.cars.com/articles/2013/11/how-quickly-does-the-tesla-model-s-battery-charge/#y2WPrqWQLRoVyTcT.99

                WOW… how handy is that !!!! ;-)

                21

              • #
                AndyG55

                Did you know..

                travellers used to rest their horses overnight for the next leg of their journey.!

                21

              • #
                Willard

                That’s the same Mr Trump that has Elon Musk on his advisory committee?
                Andy? Andy? Andy?

                10

              • #
                Willard

                So Andy Mr Trump is about jobs and America first but you think he’s going to give Tesla the heave-ho? Why exactly? So the US car companys employing Mexicans in Mexoco can ship their cars to American taxpayers? Sorry Mr Musk take Tesla and your cars off to German factories, we don’t want your battery tech here, get lost, go to Korea, and all those Spacex rockets and the tech involved? No way Mr Musk, get lost, take it to China… Yea sure Andy Trumps gonna say that.

                00

              • #
                Willard

                AndyG55
                February 12, 2017 at 9:14 pm

                Here are some examples for recharging times: With a single onboard charger plugged into a standard 110-volt outlet, Tesla says you will get 5 miles of range for every hour of charging. From zero to 300 miles would take about 52 hours at that rate. With a single charger connected to a 240-volt outlet, which Tesla recommends, the pace speeds up to 31 miles of range for each hour of charging, and a full 300-mile charge takes less than 9.5 hours.

                Step up to twin chargers on the car and connect to a 240-volt, high-power wall charger (an extra-cost charging unit, not just a 240-volt line) and the charging speed zooms to 62 miles of range per hour, and the total charging time drops to under 4 hours, 45 minutes.

                Really in a hurry? Stop at a Tesla Supercharger station and you can top off the tank with 300 miles of range in just an hour, as long as your Model S is configured with Supercharger capability

                Read more at https://www.cars.com/articles/2013/11/how-quickly-does-the-tesla-model-s-battery-charge/#y2WPrqWQLRoVyTcT.99”

                WOW… how handy is that !!!! ;-)

                How handy is that? Very handy charging at home when the cost of driving is 5 times less than your neighbors petrol csr who also has to stop at a servo on the way to work and buy fuel imported from a country with more money than they know what do do with, oh but wait you’re going to claim only millionaires drive Tesla’s, how is that arguement going to hold up when the model 3 hits the streets this yea Right?
                11

                02

              • #
                Willard

                So the day started with a battery storage discussion, AndG55 managed to slip in one of his pet hates- Tesla, Andy squeezed in all the old chestnuts- subsidies, charging times, millionaire owners, even managed a bit of name calling, I bet every time there’s a negative Tesla article no matter how improbable it is Andy cuts it out and blue-tacs it to the wall and tells everyone about it, of course Andy hangs out for that day when the evil and ruthless Elon gets exposed, his cars impounded, his Gigsfactory shut down, his SpaceX rockets grounded for good, and his Hyperloop blueprints destroyed, when the Musk empire collapses America can be free again, hang in there Andy.

                02

              • #
                AndyG55

                $4.9 BILLION subsidy…. and Trump is not going to allow that to continue.

                We will see how long the fake economy of electric cars last, won’t we. ;-)

                Back to the equivalent of a suburban milk cart.

                00

              • #
                AndyG55

                The golf cart and mobility scooter guys…

                …. they are ones you should be talking too, dullard.

                00

              • #
                AndyG55

                I can see electric cars being a real goer in South Australia. ;-)

                A highly appropriate song for you, dullard… hallucinogenic effects and all.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2npZLdxkZQ

                00

            • #
              TdeF

              So just turn off the coal power stations and wait three years for Willard’s miracle. Unfortunately for South Australia, the three years started last year. For VIctoria, it starts when Hazelwood turns off.

              Willard, why turn off what is working and pray for a very expensive miracle in a couple of years?

              93

        • #
          Analitik

          No, No. The Victorian energy minister has announced that the loss of 2.5GW when Hazelwood shuts down will be compensated by mysterious “grid scale batteries”. Apparently these will be installed right after the alien mother-ship delivers them.

          That’d be Elron Musk’s “alien dreadnought” that he tweeted about.

          60

  • #
    toorightmate

    The grid operator has now denied any responsibility for the SA blackout.
    So we have a situation where no one was to blame.
    Perhaps the blackout did not really occur. It was a figment of our imagination.

    191

    • #
      Dennis

      Maybe they are all in the dark?

      60

      • #
        Raven

        Q. What did South Australia use before candles?
        A. Electricity.

        30

        • #
          ROM

          As I think KK posted somewhere above;

          Will the last person out of SA please blow the candle out~

          31

          • #
            KinkyKeith

            My thanks to all who have posted on this section of the thread and especially to Willard without whose constant provocation the wonderful answers wouldn’t have been made.

            The depth of involvement of respondents in the application, use and integration of battery storage into the modern grid is amazing.

            That people with that level of expertise and understanding are prepared to share their knowledge with the rest of us on this blog is great and indicates that these contributors have a high opinion of Jo’s website.

            Again, many thanks to Willard for prompting such accurate and informative responses.

            Well done all.

            KK

            30

  • #
    David Maddison

    Enough of these hamster powered generators will solve Australia’s energy problems.

    https://youtu.be/2jS8WkFWcAo

    https://youtu.be/KUzLcbiImWY

    https://youtu.be/3Mt6rKf9wzQ

    https://youtu.be/EkNTAiWX8g0

    Hamster power!

    20

  • #
    Konrad

    You hardly ever saw Grandaddy down here
    He only came to town about twice a year
    He’d buy a hundred pounds of caustic and some tubing line
    Everybody knew that he made sunshine
    Now the revenue man wanted Grandaddy bad
    He headed up the holler with everything he had
    It’s before my time but I’ve been told
    He never came back from Canola Oil Road – (Apologies to Steve Earle)

    The time of bootleg ethanol and “Sunshine runners” is almost upon us. Canola farms that never sell to market. Hidden Canola presses. Dodgy “cleaning supply” companies buying too much sodium hydroxide. Cars and home generators running reliably and tax free …

    60

    • #
      TdeF

      Wait until the SGCs catch up with him. These are small scale Generator certificates. You can be taxed in your home. My estimate would be 6MWHr so currently $540 a year to supply your own power from carbon based fuels. Plus whatever carbon tax was on the fuel.

      41

      • #

        TdeF February 11, 2017 at 9:44 am

        Ya puts da pot on da top with many grow lamps. Da milk Cowzies go on da ground floor for farm legitimacy! In da underground two floors is da moneymakers! All neighbors (friends) are locked and loaded so no govment ossifers get anywhere near da place! Did you Aussies come from England or such nonsense?

        40

        • #
          TdeF

          So a new solar power source with moonshine?

          00

          • #
            Konrad

            I’m talking of the prohibition era we are entering, where clean reliable low tax energy is prohibited. Canola oil and sodium hydroxide = ethanol.
            Our politicians are now engineering a situation where bootleg energy to power cars and homes will cost far less than government regulated energy. Alcohol prohibition in America tells us what happens next. At one stage, Al Capone had more men under arms and more armoured vehicles than the state enforcement authorities.
            Our idiot authorities think they can continue with their inane green taxation policies. They may be right that demand is inelastic. But in a technological world, supply is not under their control.

            Here’s Steve Earle’s original from 1988-
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvaEJzoaYZk
            (Will get’s it).

            20

  • #
    David Maddison

    If our fellow Australians are too ignorant and stupid and silent about the problem should we even care? Should we waste our emotional energy on worrying about Australia as most are set upon a path of self-destruction?

    110

    • #
      PeterS

      If we continue down the current road of closing down our base load power stations and increasing our reliance on renewables then we do indeed have to suffer a lot more pain. Whether man-made global warming is real or not is not the issue anymore thanks to the gullibility of so many voters. The real issue is how best to provide reliable and cost effective power supply to a country for its own economic survival under either scenario. What’s the point of destroying our economy well before the global warming threat bites us assuming even if it’s true? The decision is simple. We need to build more base load power stations regardless of their nature, be it nuclear, coal or both. Although I consider it a waste of money to build nuclear ones given our plentiful supply of cheap coal the compromise is to start building both as many other countries are already doing in the name of reducing our CO2 emissions. As I said before, India, China and Japan between them alone are building many more coal fired ones (about 200 in total) so us building a few more will not destroy the push towards saving the planet from man-made global warming even if it were true. That’s the message that needs to be pushed to the public – start building both coal and nuclear power stations. At least that way we can avoid becoming an economic disaster case at least until the debt situation gets too big but that’s another story. Failing that then go ahead – let’s all suffer and lose our jobs, homes and super by closing down our coal fired power stations. Then it will be interesting to see who gets the real blame. Voters will squeal but they should look into a mirror first.

      60

    • #
      TdeF

      I agree but don’t agree. People read this blog. Politicians or at least their assistants, to get a perspective. Letting people be harmed by wrong decisions just harms everyone. That is why I am making it clear that the RET is the problem, the entire problem.

      The problem is that few Australians realise it, because it is a cunning tax, hidden in your bills and a John Howard/Tony Abbott Liberal coalition bipartisan tax. So Mr Weatherill and his friends do not have to spend a cent! Rather they have been spending billions subsidizing Whyalla, Port Pirie and even direct compensation for a destructive tax which is not even theirs. Weatherill did not pay for silly useless windmills. You did.

      In Victoria too, half a billion has been spent just keeping Hazelwood open. More to keep Portland open. So not only do you and they pay too much for electricity, your State taxes are going up to pay to compensate for the damage the federal laws are doing. All the while you are told nothing. Only this week the RET was front page in the Australian, $3Bn annually for nothing. Worse, another $3Bn is being spent to compensate for the damage being done by the tax!

      112

      • #
        Ross

        TdeF

        If a decision was made today to build a HELE coal plant in Australia do we know how long it would take to build ? There are probably two answers to that –1. Under current regulations and planning rules 2. Under an “emergency” law allowing the engineers to by pass the major planning rules (I’m not referring to engineering specs. etc.)

        70

        • #
          TdeF

          Remember a HELE plant would NOT be exempt from the RET and would not make economic sense.

          The RET Act is not about Carbon Dioxide per se. Carbon and CO2 are not mentioned.

          “The LRET creates a financial incentive for the establishment or expansion of renewable energy power stations, such as wind and solar farms or hydro-electric power stations”. I

          The RET is about eligible fuels (huge list including hydro, sugar,,..) and ineligible fuels (coal, gas, fossil fuels). Plants are exempt because they are considered carbon neutral. So the HELE plant cannot make money just as Hazelwood is broke. It is not about reducing CO2 output but stopping coal dead.

          71

          • #
            TdeF

            And of course any likely Hydro source has been made a National Park, so no hydro and the RET is about Wind and Solar and closing coal and gas. Turnbull wants an ‘emissions intensity’ tax, which is the same thing but presumably less for gas and HELE but he says this without explaining why.

            51

      • #
        PeterS

        RET is part of the problem but not the root cause of the real issue. The real issue is the gullibility of most voters who are so gullible they will still vote for one of the major parties when we have alternatives. As long as we continue with the silly notion we must stick to a 2-party system nothing will change and we will continue to slide into the abyss.

        40

        • #
          toorightmate

          The root cause of the problem is this ongoing, futile horseshit about CO2.
          (I may have said that a couple of times before?)

          00

  • #
    TdeF

    There was a time when politicians did not care much about electricity. In Victoria we had the SEC, the State Electricity Commission and the Gas & Fuel Coporation. The SEC was an engineering body under Sir John Monash, an engineer and former general whose job it was to create adequate, stable, cheap and reliable power for Victoria. They did a great job. It was not a political organization, apart from attempts by Unions to control electrical power.

    The SEC, G&F and their massive power stations were broken up and sold off around 1993 under Jeff Kennett.

    However the IPCC was the catalyst, the Inter Governmental Panel on Climate Change. The clue is in the title. Without Climate Change, they would not exist. Ergo, Climate Change had to exist and be controllable by governments. All they had to do was convince everyone.

    Formed by the world meteorological association, it became part of the United Nations and all that entails by the simple premise that Governments control Climates.

    They alone invented man made Global warming. It was necessary. That or cooling. By 2007 Kevin Rudd pronounced Global Warming as the greatest moral challenge of a generation. So
    now we have politicians who are not scientists or engineers trying to outdo each other in controlling the climate. We even get lectures and debates by economists, psychologists and dead kangaroo specialists on everything from hot rocks to nuclear technology. Not a scientist to be seen, except as a mouthpiece for his political masters or looking for funding to study parrots or snails or another year in the Arctic.

    The folly of letting politicians think they know anything about either the weather or science has visited this disaster on us, from the IPCC to the RET to the Clean Energy Regulator (Government body responsible for administering legislation to reduce carbon emissions and increase the use of clean energy.)

    Their solution, shut down electricity with taxation. Not only does it increase their incomes, they have responded to the moral challenge. Then you get Malcolm Turnbull demanding the new US President resolve Australia’s boat people problem. Is there no end to the arrogance of politicians? Defund and close the IPCC and will someone stop the RET?

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    • #
      ROM

      There was a time when politicians came from the trades and working class and returned soldiers and who understood what a nut and a bolt were and where they were used and why they existed.

      And those trady and working class and returned servicemen who had been through hell and back, politicians of the 1950′s and 60′s made damn sure that the people they grew up with and who they had worked with and fought with got electrical power by building power stations and extending the electrical grid by the most economical means, SWER lines in our rural case, into every town and village and rural regions.

      They planned and built dams right across Australia so as to ensure that the people they knew and grew up with always had water for domestic and even food producing irrigation needs .

      They paid for town sewerage systems to be built to ensure the health of the people.

      They built hospitals where only the minimum health needs Old Bush Nursing system had existed previously.

      They turned dirt track and gravel roads into sealed roads and Highways right across the nation. [ I still remember driving to Melbourne to my grand parents on a gravelled Melbourne to Adelaide highway. The Old Man clocked an amazing 60 MPH by my mothers watch on a section of sealed road outside of Ballarat. About 1944 or thereabouts ]

      They planned ahead and built bridges that were designed to take heavy road loads that would not eventuate for a another few decades.

      Today we have almost nothing in parliament as representatives of the lives and working pursuits of the ordinary people , the “deplorables” of Hillary Clintons’ infamous remarks.

      Instead we have vast reams of lawyers and bankers and union officials / thugs and pampered former sports people that are well past their prime and are only there because they are well known and promoted as our parliamentary representatives .

      They don’y know that what base load power is or why it is the basis of our modern civilisation.

      They don’t know at all about the requirement for a dead steady millisecond phasing of the power grid that gives it the stability to run sophisticated and computer controlled industrial processes as well as the computers in the politicians offices and the entire communication systems of a nation.

      They don’t know and don’t care that they are totally ignorant of the immense amounts of fuel nor the very limited types and sources for that fuel to provide that power in the amounts needed to run our society and civilisation.

      They don’t know where the water comes from when they turn on a tap.

      They don’t seem to know that to ensure that the so absolutely essential basic water supply to cities and towns and people everywhere, that they as leaders have to ensure that huge dams to store the water from rainfall HAVE to be planned for well in advance of the demand and constructed regardless of the protests from the crazies of the green cult.

      The politicians of today, in short, are from proffessions and academic pursuits that are far removed and remote from the trials and troubles and lives of the citizens they purport to represent.

      They do not understand the nuts and bolts of maintaining a civilisation and society as unlike the trady’s and proffessionally trained politicians of the half century back they have never had deal with those quite literally, basic nuts and bolts and hardware that keeps a society and civilisation operating at a satisfactory, to its inhabitant’s, level.

      They simply do not understand that THEY and they alone are totally responsible in ensuring that the absolute basic needs and the most basic requirements of a civilisation such as ours have to met and met more than adequately through the decisions they make as the elected leaders of our nation and society.

      In short the politicians of today who are almost exclusively from a union, academic or lawyer background and class are just plain straight out ignorant of the realities of maintaining and running the critical hardware that underpins the running of a modern 21st century society.

      And worse, much worse, they surround themselves with sycophant toadies who think like they do and applaud the politician regardless of his / her FU’s and who are equally as ignorant of life at street level as are the politicians themselves.

      And so we have the absolute debacle of an intermittent , grossly expensive, totally unreliable and completely unpredictable Renewable energy scam being given and taking absolute precedence in supplying power whenever the renewable scammers want to over the most basic, totally reliable, completely predictable near century long in development , sophisticated in the extreme basic fossil fueled power generation system that has been proven as an absolutely reliable source of very cheap electrical power for nearly a century past.

      The utter ignorance and gross stupidity and the abject culpability on the part of the political class in imposing this situation onto the populace with NO evidence at all anywhere that it will have any effect on the climate whatsoever is beyond describing in acceptable terms on this blog or anywhere else for that matter,

      181

      • #
        TdeF

        Good. Well said. Our problem is not elections, but the political classes.

        I would include journalists too, editing stories, making up stories and pushing their views instead of reporting the facts and letting us decide. We all know what Donald Trump means when he talks about Fake News.

        You can add Fake Science to that and Fake Issues like Gay Marriage, Safe Schools and people taking offence at $5000 a single complaint by the fake Human Rights Commission. The HRC has succeeded in extracting over $300k from its victims last year, for offending people.

        In this blog, it is Fake Science at issue and Real Disaster is the result from Mr Weatherill who could not give a toss about South Australia. In his view, it is their fault. They voted for him.

        61

      • #
        stan stendera

        +1,776,000,000,000,000 on to infinity.

        01

      • #
        Tony Porter

        They don’t know that what base load power is or why it is the basis of our modern civilisation.

        I think you’ll find they DO know. Both what base load power is and that it is the basis of our modern civilisation. That is why they want to remove base load power, so they can destroy our modern civilisation.
        These green zealots are often referred to as ‘watermelons’, for a good reason: They are really communists disguised as greens (green outside but bright red inside) and they don’t really give a damn about the climate, or the environment. They hate people having freedom and capitalism enables freedom. Therefore being devout commies they aim to destroy capitalism, as many of their predecessors have throughout history, only this time they want to destroy it GLOBALLY, so that global Socialism or Communism will rule.

        CAGW or climate change is as we know, a cleverly and carefully engineered hoax, but many aern’t aware of its purpose. It was chosen and designed to cover their real agenda of wanting to CONTROL everyone via a one world Socialist government. So they invented this global (non) problem, which will require a global solution and where they claim a system of global governance is the only way to effect a solution to this (non) problem… I.e. global CONTROL of everyone’s lives and livelihoods. Of course an awful lot of money is needed to enable them to implement these ‘necessary’ changes, so participating nations send billions, even trillions of dollars to the ‘climate fund’ (Socialist world government setup fund) in the UN…
        In February 2015: UNFCCC chief Christiana Figueres pointed out:

        The aim of the UN is to bring about a “centralized transformation“… “one that is going to make the life of everyone on the planet very different.” Figueres continues: “global society, is moving to the point where we are going to need more and more global governance muscle… Climate change is only the first of the major, major planetary challenges that we are being given, almost as a playground… to go into that playground and exercise our global governance capacity”

        Then, very recently again: at a news conference only about 3 weeks ago in Brussels, Quoted from a news article:

        Christiana Figueres, executive secretary of U.N.’s Framework Convention on Climate Change, admitted that the goal of environmental activists is not to save the world from ecological calamity but to destroy capitalism.

        Our government representatives, including Australia’s are all complicit in this (EVIL) master plan for humanity, only they’re too frightened to tell us they are.
        DON’T TRUST them.

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        PhilJourdan

        Excellent! Very well stated!

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    Geoff Sherrington

    Apart from reading plausible fiction like the great “Atlas Shrugged”, keep in touch with reality in Australian politics. Here is a piece by former PM Hawke in 1984, being lickspittle to the cranks in the Fabian Society. It is frightening that a person with these extreme, almost treasonous views, became PM.

    http://www.geoffstuff.com/fabian.pdf

    Geoff.

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    pat

    ABC is still more interested in spruiking wind and solar:

    Dennis (comment #33) provides an ABC link – here is an excerpt:

    10 Feb: ABC: NSW power: Blackouts across the state averted, energy operator says
    By Dom Vukovic and Penny Evans
    AGL said that if power to the smelter had not been cut, there would have been electricity cuts to schools, businesses and homes across NSW…
    Mr Harwin thanked electricity companies and the renewable energies sector for playing a significant role in staving off the need to enforce blackouts across the state.
    “I want to thank all the NSW electricity generators and their workforces gas, coal, hydro, wind and solar,” he said.
    “Plenty of wind power generation coming in from the wind turbines along the great dividing range.
    “It’s the biggest day ever for solar.”…

    overnite on ABC news headlines, there was a Labor spokeswoman (if I understood correctly) righteously accusing the PM of having no energy policy. evidence was the choice between closing down the aluminium smelter or cutting power to 300,000 homes.
    ABC does not appear to have documented it.

    time and time again, when there’s a potential or real problem with the electricity grid here or in the UK, for example, we see MSM giving voice to the very people who forced CAGW energy policies on the public in the first place, while threatening even more.

    Unions have a lot to answer for too in this regard; however Fairfax doesn’t think so when it writes this:

    10 Feb: BlacktownSun: Michael McGowan: Tomago aluminium smelter ‘on the verge of disaster’ as electricity cut off
    from Newcastle Herald/SMH
    The Australian Workers Union has accused energy supplier AGL of “bastardry”, and called for Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull to “pick up the phone” and intervene.
    “AGL has its hand hovering above a button that could batter the Tomago aluminium smelter and put a wrecking ball through the regional economy,” the union’s National Secretary Daniel Walton
    “Our information is that power could be cut this afternoon for a period of four hours. If that happens, the results could be catastrophic.
    “Workers will have to pull out all stops in sweltering heat to save the plant’s equipment. They may not be successful.
    “Tomago is in a precarious economic position and it cannot afford for AGL to cut power. For AGL to do so would be an unimaginable act of bastardy.”
    Meanwhile NSW opposition leader Luke Foley has called on the Berejiklian government to explain why the Liddell Power Station in Muswellbrook is running at only half capacity.
    Mr Foley today said “whistle blowers” had told him that just two of the four units at Liddell Power Station were operational.
    The reports were confirmed with the Australian Energy Market Operator.
    “The Premier’s top priority over the coming days is to ensure the reliable supply of electricity,” he said.
    http://www.blacktownsun.com.au/story/4460995/tomago-aluminium-smelter-on-the-verge-of-disaster-as-electricity-cut-off/

    32

  • #
    pat

    never let a crisis go to waste – ABC still shilling for wind:

    10 Feb: ABC: SA power: What is load shedding and why is it happening?
    By political reporter Nick Harmsen
    Why are renewables being blamed by the Federal Government?
    SA has one of the highest mixes of wind and solar energy in the world.
    ***It can be argued that the advent of high levels of renewable energy have helped bring down wholesale prices in South Australia.
    ***Subsidised via renewable energy certificates, wind farms can produce power at a much lower market cost than traditional coal and gas generators.
    But in turn, this flood of cheap renewable energy Other potential options include storage of renewable energy — through batteries, pumped hydro or other technology…
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-09/sa-power-what-is-load-shedding-and-why-is-it-happening/8254508

    23

    • #
      TdeF

      What we need is a lot more of the ‘other technology’. You know, the one we have not invented yet. The IPCC says we should not use fossil fuels or fly or drive or holiday or work or farm or anything but we should pay the wages and expenses of the useless 40,000 people who work for the UN.

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    el gordo

    ‘Much has been written about growing power grid instability in Europe as more and more volatile wind and solar energy have come online over the years.

    ‘Earlier today European news outlets reported how Brussels, a major centre of the European Union, plunged into darkness late yesterday evening.

    ‘So far it’s not known what’s behind the outage. The New York Post writes that the cause is a “mystery”, but according to the BBC here that “a spokesperson for Brussels’ power supplier, Sibelga, later told The Sun that the blackout was the result of an electric network distribution problem”.

    - See more at: http://notrickszone.com/#sthash.h1WvWKxH.dpuf

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    Colin

    Sometimes, when reading this blog, I become speechless. The madness in the USA is enough to drive me up the wall, but, my goodness, what is going on in your country? Where is the outrage? I just do not understand how sane people can just let a group of idiot politicians destroy their ability to live quiet, peaceful lives. How can one budget for the ongoing disasters heaped upon the average family? It is beyond my understanding. One day, it may be necessary for patriots in the USA to take up arms again–hope not, but, some of us do not take kindly to this kind of tyranny.

    20

  • #
    David Maddison

    I just checked https://outage.apps.sapowernetworks.com.au/OutageReport/OutageMap

    SA currently has power, an unusual condition.

    61

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    Dennis

    Did anyone else hear how fortunate we were in NSW yesterday? Despite the weather conditions and demand for electricity our wind turbines along the Great Dividing Range were delivering lots of power.

    10

    • #
    • #
      PeterS

      The article also states that AGL Energy was forced to cut power to a large aluminium smelter that uses 10% of the state’s power in the state’s Hunter Valley in order to avoid mass electricity blackouts across the state. So power shedding did in fact occur despite what other media outlets have been telling us. I bet most people don’t understand we are already so vulnerable.

      60

    • #
      AndrewWA

      What does “lots of power” actually mean?

      At 6PM the wind turbines were supplying 300 MW – 46% of their installed capacity.

      By 8:20 PM this had dropped to 75 MW – 11% of installed capacity. Imported power was elevated by >500 MW again to cover the drop-off in Wind Power.

      During a day when NSW needed 14,000 MW the maximum wind generation was 550 MW – 4% of demand and 84% of the installed wind capacity.

      The wind turbines generated >500 MW (77%) for almost 3 hours in the early afternoon.

      What saved NSW yesterday was the imported coal-fired power spike (about 500MW) from Queensland and Victoria (4:40-5:30 PM.)

      51

      • #
        AndrewWA

        Their ABC has confirmed that AGL cut power to the Tomago aluminium smelter to avert cuts to the voting public’s power.

        The “best ever” day for solar provided 230MW (100% installed capacity) for almost 4 hours.
        WOW!! That’s 1.6% of the 14,000 MW maximum demand.

        61

        • #
          AndrewWA

          Apolgise for the multi posts.

          The cut to the Tamago Aluminium smelter is what happens throughout Africa during periods of peak demand.

          The Ghana government has been known to shut down gold mines to ensure the voting public can watch the national soccer team play in the Africa or World Cup tournaments.

          Welcome to the Banana Republic about which Keating often talked…..

          61

        • #
          Dennis

          They were excited that so called renewables produced.

          10

        • #
          aussiepete

          WOW!! That’s 1.6% of the 14,000 MW maximum demand.
          The N.S.W Govt. Dept of Energy and Resources says that the State has an operational capacity of 20,000 MW.
          Can anyone answer my obvious question?

          20

          • #
            Robert Rosicka

            Aussie Pete I think the answer to your obvious question is that 20,000 megs is theoretical on paper , ie what their supposed to get from solar and wind at full capacity plus the usual coal and hydro etc .
            May also include what can be imported from other states , like South Australia as I believe with their overabundant excess wind power and interconnector line was setup for exporting power to other states making SA rich from free energy .

            10

          • #
            AndrewWA

            Unsure where that would come from – unless they’re including what can be sourced by the interconnectors.

            Numbers from Aneroid Energy:

            Fossil – 14.04 GW (~80% = 11.23 GW)
            Hydro – 1.70 GW (~30% = 0.51 GW)
            Q-NSW IC x 2 – 1.41 GW )
            Vic-NSW IC x 1 – 1.60GW ) [Combined Max 2.1GW on 9 Feb]
            Wind – 0.65 GW (~30% = 0.22 GW)
            Solar – 0.23 GW (~25% = 0.05 GW
            TOTAL – 19.63 GW
            (AVAILABLE: 12.01 + Say 2.1 = 14.1 GW )

            00

  • #
    pat

    where better to look for solutions than California? novel length:

    9 Feb: LA Times: Deborah Netburn: L.A.’s mayor wants to lower the city’s temperature. These scientists are figuring out how to do it
    As part of a sweeping plan to help L.A. live within its environmental means, (Mayor Eric) Garcetti has pledged to reduce the average temperature in the metropolis by 3 degrees over the next 20 years.
    It’s a noble goal. Not only will it make you more comfortable, it will reduce energy consumption and improve air quality. It may even save lives — extreme heat kills more people each year than hurricanes, floods or tornadoes…

    The city has already teamed up with USC environmental engineer George Ban-Weiss. A veteran of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory’s Heat Island Group, he said there is no better place to test different ways of reducing urban heat than L.A.
    “There is all this variation across the city,” Ban-Weiss said. “You can’t get a richer place to study climate and meteorology.” …
    The built environment is mostly responsible for the problem. More than half of city surfaces are covered by dark pavements and dark roofs. Traditional asphalt absorbs up to 90% of the sun’s radiation. As the asphalt gets hotter, it warms the air around it, adding to the overall heat. Even after the sun goes down, that accumulated heat lingers for hours and continues to transfer warmth to the night air…

    In another project, the team determined that the current zeal for xeriscaping could make L.A. up to 3.4 degrees Fahrenheit warmer in the daytime by depriving the soil of water and limiting the amount of evapotranspiration that occurs…
    By 2019, he hopes to have a better idea of how realistic the goal of lowering the temperature by 3 degrees really is, as well as the best way to achieve it.
    The cooling of Los Angeles is still years away, but the groundwork has begun.
    http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-sci-cooling-los-angeles/#nt=summary

    notorious non-defenders of free speech, will protect climate change data from President Trump!

    10 Feb: East Bay Times: Tom Lochner: UC Berkeley to protect data from science deniers with ‘guerrilla archiving’
    DataRescue SF Bay seeks to protect federal data in the public interest from a presidential administration that has expressed scorn for science and claims climate change is a hoax
    BERKELEY — UC Berkeley will host a “guerrilla archiving” event Saturday to save federal data in the public interest from a presidential administration that has expressed scorn for science and claims climate change is a hoax.
    DataRescue SF Bay will take place 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. at UC Berkeley’s Institute for Data Science in the Doe Memorial Library. The event, run by a group of Bay Area information technology experts, scientists, researchers and activists, is co-sponsored by UC Santa Cruz’ Science and Justice Center.
    DataRescue events feature the downloading of data, from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association (NOAA) and Department of Energy (DOE), related to climate change, alternative energy, and toxic releases, according to a news release from UC Santa Cruz…
    http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/02/10/uc-berkeley-to-protect-data-from-science-deniers-with-guerilla-archiving/

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  • #
    Dennis

    12.41 pm mid north coast NSW 34.4 C on electronic gauge

    10

  • #
    pat

    9 Feb: Breitbart: Joel B. Pollak: Climate Skeptic Willie Soon Addresses Packed Audience in L.A.
    LOS ANGELES — Dr. Wie-Hock “Willie” Soon of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics addressed a gathering of the American Freedom Alliance on Thursday night at the Luxe Hotel, describing the current state of debate about climate change as “spitting science in the face” and “treating science like a piece of rubbish.”
    Mixing humor and science, he entertained the gathering as he made the case for skepticism about climate change.
    He began by mocking the degree to which carbon dioxide was treated like a toxic gas by proponents of radical policies on climate change. “Next it will be oxygen, it will be anything that you want on the chemical table,” he joked…READ ON
    http://www.breitbart.com/california/2017/02/09/climate-skeptic-willie-soon-addresses-packed-audience-l/

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    Dennis

    Well surprise, surprise, it’s now official …

    RESIDENTS of Australia’s East coast will suffer through scorching, “hell on earth” temperatures on Saturday as the full brunt of the lingering heatwave bites.
    But for some parts of Australia, relief could be a little hard to come by, with several beaches in Queensland and New South Wales closed by lifeguards on Saturday morning due to dangerous surf.
    Authorities are on high alert in the two states, and in parts of Victoria and South Autralia, amid looming “catastrophic” fire conditions.
    Sydney is predicted to hit a sweltering top of 42C, after suffering through overnight temperatures that barely dropped below 26C.
    It is now officially the hottest summer in Sydney’s 158 year recorded history, with 10 summer days over 35C, according to Bureau of Meteorology.

    News.com

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    • #
      AndrewWA

      Suggest that in 1895-96 the Sydney Observatory wasn’t surrounded by concrete and bitumen (including the very nearby Cahill Expressway).

      The Sydney Obeservatory – a great example of an Urban Heat Island.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      Nobby’s Newcastle 3:30pm Saturday Currently 26.8C

      23

    • #
      Ken Lloyd

      The thermometer under the carport at my home in southern Sydney is now sitting on 43C. Temp inside the house is a more reasonable 25.5C – the aircon is doing a fabulous job!
      However, we’re hoping that, like yesterday, no rolling blackouts occur. If NSW is supposed to have 20GW installed capacity, how come we’re clinging on by our fingernails at only 14GW demand?

      If the SA electricity debacle spreads to VIC it will likely cause a domino effect up the entire East Coast on days like this, as no-one will have any spare power to send through the marvelous state “interconnects”. Since it seems that lunatics have ravaged the once secure power supply grids, I can see a promising market for private standby generators.

      Welcome to the banana republic.

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    • #
      scaper...

      Record? Way to go!

      Records are there to be broken.

      02

  • #
    pat

    Sackur leave the China is the new leader of CAGW til the end and interrupts Ebell when he counters Sackur’s China/renewables propaganda. Ebell still managed to get his point across:

    AUDIO: 23mins: BBC Hardtalk: Myron Ebell: Director of Competitive Enterprise Institute
    HARDtalk’s Stephen Sackur speaks to Myron Ebell, who led President Trump’s transition team on environment policy and has long been an advocate of radical reform of the federal Environmental Protection Agency. The Trump administration seems intent on a radical reset of America’s energy and environment policies. The implications will be profound on everything from fossil fuel production to climate change policy. In America’s new politics will the interests of big business consistently overshadow environmental concerns?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04rq0fk

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  • #
    pat

    9 Feb: ClimateChangeNews: Bangladesh bets on coal to meet rising energy demand
    By Kamran Reza Chowdhury in Dhaka
    (This article was produced by thethirdpole.net)
    The government hopes coal use will jump from 2% to over 50% of the Bangladesh’s electricity supply by 2022, with 23,000 megawatts of new coal powered plants in the pipeline.
    “In Moheshkhali [an Island of Cox’s Bazar in the Bay of Bengal], a hub is being built to produce 10,000 megawatts of electricity [from coal]… Construction of a US$ 6 billion (1,200 MW coal-fired) power plant has started in Matarbari [in the same district near the Bay of Bengal] with Japanese assistance; we will get electricity from the Matarbari plant by 2022,” Hamid told the parliament.
    The minister said a 1,320 megawatt coal-fired plant was under construction in the newly built Payra seaport, with Chinese support. Another power plant, the 1,320 megawatt Rampal project in the Sundarbans, funded by India, would start to supply electricity by 2020…
    This amount of electricity is a little more than Bangladesh’s current total installed capacity. Bangladesh has seen a swift upsurge in electricity usage. Hamid told the parliament that daily power generation capacity has grown from 3,000 megawatts in 2009 to15,500 megawatts by 2017. Currently, 80% of Bangladesh’s 160 million people have access to electricity—up from 47% in 2009…
    http://www.climatechangenews.com/2017/02/09/bangladesh-bets-on-coal-to-meet-rising-energy-demand/

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  • #
    Sean McHugh

    Premier Jay Weatherill said the plans were well advanced, and all options remained on the table.

    Er, so which is it?

    10

  • #
    Dennis

    Maybe my imagination is running wild but could it be that the threatened NSW power problems are as real as much of the BoM media data releases?

    31

    • #
      ROM

      Good point Dennis if I understand where you are coming from.

      There is now gaping hole appearing in the wall of politically backed and legislatively protected Renewable Energy industry and its past promotion regardless of the consequences.

      Two or many more can play at the game of smashing that gaping hole in that politically protected wall and moat around Renewable Energy even further open to the point where the destruction of political elements supporting renewable energy and Renewable energy’s complete reputation and even its hold on the media [ The Australian has been running a series of large page articles subtly suggesting the whole ultimate stupidity of renewable energy here in Oz with all of our immense resources of fossil fuels ] will be fried and frazzled in the public’s opinion.

      And your comment has suggested to me a suspicion that the fossil fueled generators might just be getting going in the whole act with the intention of making life very, very difficult indeed for both the Renewable Energy scamming rabble and the politicals who are backing the whole RE scam and who could well be seeking new pastures after another set of elections in both Federal and State if Renewable energy can be so discredited in the public’s mind that they revolt against the RET and everything it implies in the reliability, security and cost of the electrical power supply.

      Of course if somebody imports some of those 120 German papers on the Infrasound created very serious health problems created by turbines within 3 kilometres or even further away on occupiers of residences [ Dingaling Despot Dan here in Vicastan has decreased the clearance between turbines and residences set by the Liberals from 3 kms to one kilometers.
      He might yet get sued personally and very thoroughly as a couple of court cases in the USA have apparently awarded huge damages against wind turbine companies for debilitating health destruction from nearby turbine infrasound on a couple of families ] then a major public backlash could get under way.
      With hundreds of rural folk being affected,some very seriously, by the turbine infrasound, it would be classed as a full blown epidemic if it was some other form of disease.

      Such is another of the blatantly deliberate bordering on evil, hypocrisies surrounding Renewable Energy, particularly the wind turbine industry.

      But hey, these are the sacrosanct Turbines that are going to”save the planet”.

      So what if a few lives of those unfortunate and ignorant rural ” deplorables” are destroyed due to government policy and the politicals deliberate dismissal and ignoring of that major creeping and serious health and life destroying problems on their constituents from the turbine generated infrasound.

      The fossil fuel power generating outfits now for the first time have a wide open gap in the political and bureaucratic wall around Renewable Energy if they want to get in there and exploit it which they just might be already doing.

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    Dennis

    ABC NEWS

    Records smashed across NSW

    The highest temperature in the state on Saturday was Ivanhoe at 47.6C; the highest record for anywhere in NSW was recorded in 1939 at 49.7C.

    There were many records broken across the state:

    Penrith today reached 46.9C, beating its previous record of 46.5C;
    Forbes recorded 45.5C, with its previous record only 44C;
    Williamtown also reached 45.5C after a previous high of 44.7C.
    On Sunday, conditions would intensify in centres including Dubbo, Coonabarabran and Narrabri in the north through to the Hunter Valley and the coast at Port Stephens.

    The Bureau of Meteorology said very hot conditions associated with the mass of air, combined with fresh westerly winds over the southern half of the state, meant severe fire danger throughout Saturday for the Central and Southern ranges, Lower Central West and Hunter districts.

    20

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    Hivemind

    This problem occurred on a Friday, when industry could send workers home early. The same temperature is happening on a Saturday, a non-working day.

    What would have happened if the power had failed on a day when industry couldn’t have simply shed the load?

    00

  • #
    AndrewWA

    Quadrant Online – Behold SA and Be Scared, Very Scared

    An effort to quantify the cost impact of the RET.

    10

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    pat

    the CAGW scam has no doubt helped some, but the public are going to get very angry eventually:

    10 Feb: National Scotland: Kirsteen Paterson: ScottishPower to increase fuel bills by eight per cent in the next few weeks
    Anti-poverty campaigners said the change would be “a blow” for those “already struggling” to meet household heating and lighting costs.
    However, the Glasgow-based firm said only two-thirds of customers would be affected, with the remaining 1.1 million exposed to the change, which was blamed on rises in wholesale energy markets and non-power schemes including ***de-carbonisation work and the roll out of smart meters…
    Fraser Stewart of the Consumer Future Unit at Citizens Advice Scotland said: “Coming just a week after Npower announced a similar price rise, this news will come as an unwelcome blow for ScottishPower customers, many of whom are already struggling to pay their fuel bills.
    “Energy suppliers are blaming these price rises on increases in wholesale energy prices and the cost of delivering government policies…
    http://www.thenational.scot/news/15085741.ScottishPower_to_increase_fuel_bills_by_eight_per_cent_in_the_next_few_weeks/

    price rises look even greater at BBC which isn’t concerned about fuel poverty:

    10 Feb: BBC Scotland: Scottish Power announces sharp rise in energy prices
    The company will raise standard tariff electricity prices by 10.8% from 31 March, while gas prices will increase by 4.7%.
    It means a typical dual fuel annual bill will rise by an average of 7.8%, or £86…
    Last month, Npower faced a backlash after it said it would raise standard tariff electricity prices by 15% from 16 March, and gas prices by 4.8%…

    10 Feb: Burton Mail: Ofgem cap to help more than four million pre-payment energy customers welcomed by P3 in Swadlincote
    A temporary price cap being introduced by Ofgem has been welcomed by a charity working in South Derbyshire as a way of helping households who pre-pay for their energy.
    The energy regulator said the move, which comes into effect from April, could protect more than four million households as it would save typical prepayment customers around £80 a year, with many seeing a reduction in their gas bill of around 10 to 15 per cent…
    Rebecca Harrington, assistant director of operations for P3, which has a branch in Midland Road, Swadlincote, said: “Many of our clients come to us already struggling to keep up with the costs of their accommodation and household bills…
    “Fuel poverty is a growing issue for more and more of our clients, with pre-payment meters often installed in properties where people are already struggling to meet costs, yet they are a far from cost effective way of receiving electricity…
    The investigation by CMA found that pre-payment meter customers face “particularly high levels of detriment” as competition among suppliers is less developed than for those who pay by direct debit, cash or cheque. This means there are fewer tariffs available to these customers and the tariffs that are available are generally more expensive…
    The cap is due to expire at the end of 2020 when the roll out of smart meters is set to be completed…
    http://www.burtonmail.co.uk/ofgem-cap-to-help-more-than-four-million-pre-payment-energy-customers-welcomed-by-p3-in-swadlincote/story-30121781-detail/story.html

    10 Feb: TheWeekUK: What is happening to your energy bills?
    A cap on prepay charges
    “Customers who prepay for their energy are denied the best deals on the market available to those using other payment methods,” says Ofgem chief executive Dermot Nolan.
    “They are also more likely to be in vulnerable circumstances, including fuel poverty. The temporary cap will protect these households as we work to deliver a more competitive, fairer and smarter market for all consumers.”…
    Research has found that households on pre-pay meters typically pay £220 more a year for their energy than those on the cheapest deals.
    “This cap should stop some of the poorest households paying over the odds to heat and light their homes,” says Gillian Guy, chief executive of Citizens Advice.
    “It will help millions save money but action shouldn’t stop there. The government has rightly expressed concern that loyal customers on standard tariffs are paying over the odds for their gas and electricity.
    “It could help more struggling households, including low-income pensioners and families by extending this cap to people eligible to receive the Warm Homes Discount.”…

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    pat

    Rufo has some great ideas!

    10 Feb: Stanford Social Innovation Review: Renewable Energy Won’t Change the World
    Changing the composition of the world’s energy supply is important, but it’s only half the battle against climate change.
    By Rufo Quintavalle
    (Rufo Quintavalle is a writer, entrepreneur and impact investor. He is the author of eight books of poetry, and has more than a decade of experience investing in renewable energy, farmland, and forestry)
    (SSIR is published by the Stanford Center on Philanthropy and Civil Society at Stanford University)

    If the old order wants to maintain its position at a time of great societal upheaval, it can do so only by co-opting the language of radical change. Donald Trump gets this, and so do the billionaire Barclay brothers who, from their Lampedusian perch on the Isle of Sark, have been bankrolling the false populism of the Brexit campaign.
    But I am not here to attack the lies and cynical strategies of these pseudo-populists. They will expose themselves soon enough now that they are in power and can no longer inveigh against the ruling elites. What interests me more is whether my own people within the world of environmentalism and impact investing are guilty of a similar false logic…

    Electric cars, renewable energy, and biofuels are good things. But unless we simultaneously and significantly reduce our energy use and our consumption of raw materials, all the good alternatives in the world will still see us hurtling toward extinction. The notion that we can carry on exactly as before so long as we go renewable is, to flip Al Gore’s phrase on its head, “a convenient lie.”…Reading this article has a carbon footprint, and so does building a solar panel or a wind turbine…
    First, we in the developed world simply need to consume a lot less energy…
    The only way we can reduce energy consumption at the scale necessary is via policy and regulation…
    A coherent policy approach to climate change would involve increased investment in public transport and would no longer use car sales as a tool for calculating gross domestic product…

    Second, the global community needs to set a timeline for phasing out fossil fuel use and, in the 20 years left before we overshoot the two degrees Celsius upper limit of the Paris agreement, redirect a proportion of existing fossil fuel combustion toward the construction of renewable energy infrastructure…

    It will also — and we should not duck the issue — involve a certain amount of sacrifice and hardship. Reducing our overall energy consumption while simultaneously building a new renewable infrastructure will mean that there is less energy available for certain activities we currently take for granted: The lights might not always go on when we flick the switch…

    ***And finally, all these measures will need to be undertaken in a way that is compatible with continued economic improvement for the poorest members of society…
    https://ssir.org/articles/entry/renewable_energy_wont_change_the_world
    https://ssir.org/articles/entry/renewable_energy_wont_change_the_world

    ***like placing temporary caps on prepay energy customers in the UK?

    02

  • #
    pat

    if u click on ex BBC/Reuters/Guardian Emma’s name, u will find she’s great at churning out anti-Trump pieces, such as:

    Donald Trump’s six most unusual habits
    Chess geek stops Trump cold

    is this a step up or down for Emma…and surely Mann represents the Madhouse:

    10 Feb: news.com.au: Emma Reynolds: Welcome to the Madhouse: Scientist says Trump could destroy the world
    A WORLD-leading scientist has warned Donald Trump may signal the end of the world — and Australia could be first to face the catastrophic consequences.
    Michael Mann claims Mr Trump’s relationship to “post-truth” politics and “alternative facts” is much more than just embarrassing for the US and has the potential to destroy civilisation.
    Sitting in an office at the University of Sydney Business School ahead of his sold-out talk this week, the Penn State professor says one only has to look at the city’s record January temperatures for proof of how dangerous the President’s attitude is.

    “He’s building a wall between himself and the evidence of climate change,” Professor Mann told news.com.au. “He waffles, it’s hard to pin down, he says one thing to one audience then another thing to another audience.
    “Some of his quotes firmly deny basic evidence, then there’s a ‘kinder, gentler’ form of denial — ‘there’s some warming, human activity has some role’ — that is still in denial of science. The science is far stronger than that.”…

    The North and South Pacific have both seen one of their strongest cyclones in the past year and a half, with Vanuatu still recovering from Tropical Cyclone Pam. Australia’s ‘Angry Summer’ of 2013, which saw 123 weather records broken over a 90-day period, is yet another example of the impending risk for Prof Mann.
    “The Antarctic ice sheet is close to home,” he said. “If we lose the West Antarctic ice sheet, and we are very close to the threshold, we set in motion the destruction of the ice shelf. The ice shelf is ready to collapse. Then we’re talking a 10- to 12-foot [3- to 4-metre] sea level rise, we don’t know how quick.
    “We’re talking massive loss of coastal civilisation. That could be catastrophic for Australia and New Zealand.
    “That’s a tipping point we’re very close to, if we haven’t already crossed it. Every bit of carbon makes a difference. What is it that will put us over the edge?”…

    Mr Trump has made it clear he believes in “America First” but the professor of atmospheric science says the nationalism seen in global politics right now is dangerous.
    “Trump is maybe signifying a larger nationalist, nativist political wave, like we see with ***Brexit, that poses a particular kind of threat to activities that require global co-operation,” he said.
    “Trump is a threat to a larger global movement. The next election will be a critical decision — do we want global co-operation or a divided world?”
    http://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/climate-change/welcome-to-the-madhouse-scientist-says-trump-could-destroy-the-world/news-story/0e31691ab55a520800cef7dbd289fdad

    12

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    pat

    10 Feb: Newsbusters: Baby Talk on Climate Change Hits NYT News Pages: ‘The Planet Will Like That’
    By Clay Waters
    Hitting a journalistic nadir, the New York Times ran a deeply silly environmental piece by Tatiana Schlossberg (aka Caroline Kennedy’s daughter), “Trump Has Choices to Make on Climate Policy – What Would You Do?” written in the condescending style of a choose-your-own-adventure story at a 6th-grade reading level…READ ON
    https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/clay-waters/2017/02/10/

    LOL:

    11 Feb: Tim Blair Blog: CLIVE HAMILTON’S CLIMATE FLOUNCE
    In today’s major non-news event, ridiculous Clive Hamilton has quit the pointless Climate Change Authority.
    Apparently he’s upset about coal talk:…READ ON
    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/blogs/tim-blair/clive-hamiltons-climate-flounce/news-story/cc1dce6d5da9d5fe5ccad7a72eef0a17

    02

  • #
    scaper...

    Galaxy Poll.

    Labor 33%

    LNP 31%

    One Nation 23%

    Greens 8%

    One Nation has gained 7% in three months.

    The march is on!

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    • #
      scaper...

      Queensland.

      80

    • #
      Yonniestone

      A lot of positive talk about One nation down here also scaper, coming from ex voters of all party’s, PHON has the great advantage of a long term recognised name, good or bad its still widely known which is advertising that money can’t buy.

      40

      • #
        Dennis

        Why did Pauline Hanson label it her party, as you posted, One Nation was an recognisable brand name and Hanson is well known but in many places for the wrong reasons.

        00

  • #
    sophocles

    Woo Hoo! What fun!

    SA has to be kept on its diet of renewables with huge continuing publicity for as long as possible: it’s too good an example for the rest of the world of what not to do to a `national’ power generation and distribution system. PC-ness creates such wonderful chains of catastrophe; this is not to be missed. :-)

    On the other hand, if I were an SA resident, I would already be cashing up everything and preparing to emigrate. But, fortunately for me, I’m not.

    I’ve been having to ration the popcorn and beer supplies lately, as I’ve been hitting them harder than I ever expected to; this has been such wonderful entertainment. I can see, at this rate, the Lazy Boy is going to need a grease every three months, now, instead of the originally planned annual one. :-(

    The bit I’m really looking forward to see is the “increased competition” for what is, and should always remain a publicly owned asset, SA’s electricity grid. Wow, that’s going to be so not cheaper! SA will be the first society in the world to be creating, transporting and selling pure gold electrons. If they can bottle the unicorn farts, they might be able to make something out of them, too. And fairy dust.

    I’m also starting to watch the NZ scene more carefully. So far, we have hydro at 57% and geothermal at 10%. Some new geothermal capacity is due to come on line RSN, which will lift that to 13%. Gas (20%) is no longer a long term option as the local fields aren’t particularly large. Coal we do still have plenty of but it’s place in the generaton scheme seems to be being eroded. Wind is supposedly at 7% and it might have had a bit of a work out so far over this summer. I will have to research it.

    Another decent earthquake in the South Island somewhere in the vicinity of Reefton might just reduce hydro to 15%. We definitely don’t need or want that.

    20

  • #
    pat

    Idaho results: Trump 59.2%, Clinton 27.5%, Evan “CIA” McMullin (who FakeNewsMSM kept suggesting could beat Trump) 6.7%.

    10 Feb: Spokesman-Review: Despite study, farmers skeptical on human-caused climate change
    By Kathy Hedberg, Lewiston Tribune, IDAHO
    MOSCOW, IDAHO – A six-year, three-state, $20 million research project to study the potential effects of climate change on agriculture appears to have done little to persuade farmers that human-caused climate change is a reality.

    Two surveys of farmers conducted by a team of more than ***200 scientists from the University of Idaho, Oregon State University and Washington State University revealed a resistance to the controversial notion of climate change.
    “Based on our surveys, we know that the majority of producers (in the Pacific Northwest) don’t consider human-driven climate change to be an issue,” said Sanford Eigenbrode, one of the directors of the Regional Approaches to Climate Change team. The project, which involved the largest research grant ever awarded to the University of Idaho, came to a conclusion Thursday with scientists from all three schools and others gathered at the University of Idaho Commons to cap their work over the past six years.

    Eigenbrode said farmers are “climate skeptics.”
    That does not mean, however, the efforts of scientists to engage producers about climate change was a failure.
    Farmers aren’t the only ones wary of embracing climate change science. The project also connected with K-12 teachers…

    There were some teachers, Johnson-Maynard said, “that weren’t sure about how they felt about climate change.”…
    Chad Kruger, of WSU, worked with the extension service portion of REACCH. He said farmers’ acceptance of climate change may not make any difference.
    “I’m not sure it really matters what someone thinks about whether the climate is changing or what the cause is,” Kruger said. “We have a highly variable climate anyway, and we have to manage under uncertainty, whether it’s climate or markets or technology or everything else.
    “And the person who’s going to be successful moving into the future is the one who’s adapted to taking what information, tools and technology are available and managing that uncertainty.”…
    http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/feb/10/despite-study-farmers-skeptical-on-human-caused-cl/

    THIS IS NOT THE ONION, LENGTHY & NO NEED TO READ FURTHER:

    10 Feb: Phys.org: Eric Understanding climate change as a social issue
    Earth’s increasingly deadly and destructive climate is prompting social work leaders to focus the profession’s attention on one of humanity’s most pressing issues: environmental change…
    “We see it perhaps most importantly as a social justice issue,” said Lawrence Palinkas, the Alberg G. and Frances Lomas Feldman Professor of Social Policy and Health at the USC Suzanne Dworak-Peck School of Social Work.
    “Generally the people most affected by climate change tend to be the poor, older adults, children and families, and people with a history of mental health problems—populations that are typically the focus of social work practice.”…NO NEED TO READ ON
    https://phys.org/news/2017-02-climate-social-issue.html

    12

    • #
      Curious George

      Unfortunately, most Idaho farmers can read and think. The effects of climate change have been beneficial so far. The predictions of alarmists have been wrong so far. It is snowing in London today.

      11

  • #
    RAH

    What investors and management of an industry reliant upon reliable electrical service would even consider moving to or expanding in S. Australia these days? Sure maybe mining and processing operations that need to be near the place raw materials are extracted, but who else. If you were a major investor in a manufacturing operation would you support moving into that region? More than likely if a company had operations already there they would be running at the cost benefit analysis to determine if moving to a place with reliable electric service would be beneficial! In the end this is about one heck of a lot more than A/C and lighting for residents. It’s about the economic well being of the whole region and that will make the government have to move on it eventually. Any department of the government keeping track of the cost of the lost wages and production from these continued black outs?

    30

  • #
    ScotsmaninUtah

    California Edison Lithium-Ion grid scale Battery Storage

    Other potential options include storage of renewable energy — through batteries.

    The California based project will supply electricity to LA (LA city pop. 3.9 Million , LA Metro area approx 18 Million) and is rated at 400MW and delivers 100MW for 4hours.
    Note: 1MW supplies approx 800 homes ( average)
    However the battery array consists of 18000 units each the size of a Nissan Leaf automobile.

    The batteries will be charged by a solar array during daylight hours (Assuming that the Solar array can both supply its normal customers during the day and charge the battery storage array simultaneously)

    As an Engineer might ask … :o
    Is this really feasible ? considering that Lithium is obtained through electrolysis
    and is quite a rare element, where are these structures going to be built especially in a State where the cost of real estate is a premium. and what about energy for the other types of customers schools, theatres, restuarants, hospitals etc?

    The numbers for grid scale battery storage do not make sense :o

    here is the link

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/world-s-largest-storage-battery-will-power-los-angeles/

    The good news for Australia is that the largest deposits of Lithium are located in Oz followed by Chile, China and Argentina. However I have not seen many electric powered excavators they are all fossil fuel based vehicles.

    The Green activists in California have not thought this through … go figure !

    Thank you Jo for posting yet another great article :D

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    • #
      Willard

      Never seen an electric powered excavator? You need to get out and about Scotsman.
      LIthium is NOT a rare element, far from it, by the way how much Lithium do you think is in a Lithium battery?
      You say the numbers for grid scale storage do not make sense, I think it’s best you leave those calculations to the engineers installing them because based on the evidence of your above post your lack of knowledge counts you out of the decision making process.

      23

      • #
        Robert Rosicka

        Lithium is currently priced at $9100.00 per metric ton , in comparison with iron ore $79.50 per metric ton and zinc $2664.81 per metric tonne and lead $2390.00 per metric ton .
        Whilst it’s not the rarest of metals it’s not the cheapest and has been increasing in price by almost 20% per year , this suggests that lithium storage batteries will not get cheaper especially short term as demand outstrips supply .
        If it was easy to mine and process and as common as iron ore the price would reflect that fact .

        30

        • #
          Willard

          Here’s a little homework for you Robert, how Lithium is required in the production of a battery?

          11

          • #
            Willard

            Sorry, poor grammer on my part, how MUCH Lithium is required Robert?

            11

            • #
              Robert Rosicka

              If it’s getting more expensive to buy lithium Willard it’s going to be more expensive to make products that contain lithium .
              Economics dictates so .
              Unless your a Labor or green politician or supporter of either , then the more expensive the more economical .

              00

              • #
                Robert Rosicka

                And regardless of how much lithium is in a battery , if it’s in there is getting more and more expensive .

                00

              • #
                Willard

                Best to answer the question Robert, how much $9100 a Tonne Lithium is required for a battery?

                10

              • #
                Robert Rosicka

                Or is it better to ask that if the ever increasing price of the raw material will make large scale batteries using lithium cost prohibitive for large scale storage for power grids .
                Remembering everything has a useby date moreso if catches fire .

                10

              • #
                Robert Rosicka

                The plot thickens , lithium batteries have a lifespan of 5 to 10 years .
                We currently have no way of recycling lithium .
                Known reserves of lithium just under 55 million tons .
                Afghanistan has a major deposit to which its extent is still being verified but can’t see anyone mining it in the foreseeable future for obvious reasons .

                10

              • #
                Willard

                You say Lithium batteries have a lifespan of 5-10 years, at what state of degredation are you basing that on Roberts? Are you referring to useful lifespan? For traction batteries or storage applications?
                55 million tonnes of known reserves, that is known as is financially viable.

                Although I think your “negative rumours” concerning Lithium shortages should be kept circulating, keep those prices up for Aussie miners as long as possible.

                11

            • #
              Robert Rosicka

              How much lithium is required for a 1 kw battery , raw material , my research suggests 2-3 kg .
              Which may be less than ends up in the battery that’s just what’s needed to make one kw .

              00

              • #
                Willard

                Can you provide a link to that “fact”?

                10

              • #
              • #
                Willard

                Wow, March 2010, could you not find something more up to date? A more accurate 2016/17 figure is 0.7kg per Kw, that’s not the content of the battery but what’s initially required to get the end result, but as you need all the help you can get let’s go with your figure of 3kg which is a better result for those Lithium mines that under your vision can get $9.10 per Kg increasing by 20% per year, and where are some of those mines? Let me answer that for you….Australia, you’d think those with some pull would be lining up at Tesla’s doors promoting our resources just like the leaders of India, France, Germany, Portugal, the Netherlands, the list goes on, oh wait, the Prime Minister has already paid a visit to Fremont and grabbed a place in the queue.

                13

              • #
                Robert Rosicka

                Ok so price was quoted as 2017 price $9100 a tonne .
                True reserves of lithium are unknown , where have I said there was a limited supply , other than in current mining production .
                Yes I was looking at 2010 figure of lithium content in batteries so Willard I was wrong on that one .
                Do you know who is the majority owner of the lithium mine in WA and what price do they get ?
                Tesla has done a deal with two company’s for the lithium but estimates are Tesla will use 20 % of world production of lithium which certainly won’t hurt the price .
                Seeing as your the expert in lithium you should have known what the Chinese are paying for battery grade lithium , and that the mine in WA is 51% owned by the Chinese .
                Can’t find anything to say we refine lithium to battery grade only raw product , can find heaps of conflicting information on the subject and don’t think it’s a wise stock market investment long term anymore .

                00

              • #
                Willard

                Robert R, I did read somewhere a litihum process plant is being built in WA, no doubt it will be a token gesture and 90% will be exported for processing, not the first time overseas interests have investment in Australian mining-http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-08/chinese-investment-driving-wa-lithium-boom/8252068 .

                00

          • #
            ROM

            how [ much ] Lithium is required in the production of a battery ?”

            Thats a strange question?

            The equivalent of “How long is a piece of string!”

            Missing / ignoring the major specification; What size / watt hours is the capacity of the battery that the Lithium content / weight / amount is being used for this question?

            The genuine posters here on Jo’s blog, if they know an answer freely provide that answer.

            If they ask a question about some subject, they ask it as a genuine question that is seeking an answer to something they don’t know.

            Most of them just do a good search and try and find the answers themselves.

            And then there are the odd posters here, who think they are clever when they pose a question they think they know the answer to but pose that question in a way intended to try and trip somebody else up if they can and then show their own superiority of knowledge.
            ———-

            And it takes about 25 grams of raw, non battery ready Lithium for a 300 watt-hour battery.

            ie; A 20 KWh battery that will run an average Australian household for one day – 24 hours based on the ABS data, will require 1.67 kgs of raw, non battery ready, Lithium

            30

      • #

        Willard,

        Assertions are no substitute for good maths. Dream on!

        Here is something for a ScotsmanInScotland

        The Holy Grail of Battery Storage

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        • #
          Robert Rosicka

          Alfred you’re wasting your time with Willard and yes maths are not his strong point ( neither is it mine) but if lithium has been increasing in price by around 20% per year and is nearly ten grand per metric ton now the only upside is if you’re investing in the miners producing it .

          11

          • #
            Willard

            I think research is your weak point Robert, how about announcing how much Lithium is required because you really have an issue with its cost.

            12

          • #
            Dave

            Currently

            Battery grade Lithium Carbonate is running at $27,000 per metric ton

            Tesla use about 54 kg of this battery grade Lithium Carbonate per vehicle
            Their sales forecast per year is 500,000 vehicles

            Which is 27,000 tons annually or nearly 20% of current world yearly use

            The price will skyrocket again by end of 2017!

            30

            • #
              Willard

              Robert states the price is $9100 per tonne, are you disagreeing with him?
              I like your price better $27k per tonne, woo hoo, Scott Morrison will be parading a handful of Lithium around Parliment on Monday.

              12

              • #
                Dave

                No!
                I am just stating the price in the market today!

                Currently only four producers control about 85% of supply.

                50

              • #
                Willard

                $27,000 per tonne, very nice for Australia, thanks Dave.

                21

              • #
                AndyG55

                I think you have had enough lithium today Willard !!.

                Get your doctor to check you dosage level.

                52

              • #
                Willard

                Boom boom!

                I would but the doc overcharges already, and at those current prices I could be in for even more bill shock.
                I heard that on Sunday the doc visits the local hospital discharging patients.

                22

              • #
                Robert Rosicka

                Dave is probably correct or closer to the mark Willard , price for lithium depends on what grade of lithium and what country it was dug up in .
                The actual pricing range is apparently not very well known and prices are dictated by the Asian market and four major producers , no exact figures can be found just guesstimates as far as production goes .
                $20,000.00 + was the spot price last year by a Chinese company for battery grade refined lithium .
                Raw lithium is anywhere from $5000-$6000 up , this is quoting Reuters last year in June .

                30

              • #
                AndyG55

                “I heard that on Sunday the doc visits the local hospital discharging patients”

                Better hurry, maybe he will meet you in the carpark if you pay him enough.

                11

        • #
          Willard

          Now here’s Alfred, another who turns up to the conversation late and butts in without knowing the discussion, once again it’s not about grid domination it’s about grid stability, but go ahead keep posting references to change the subject, here’s something to remember Alfred, you posted an article from August 2016, battery tech is progressing that fast now that 6 month old articles are ancient history.

          22

          • #
            KinkyKeith

            Here’s a thought experiment for Willard.

            Sometimes referred to as a “thoughtie”.

            Here in Newcastle we have a beautiful ocean swimming pool at Merewether. It is 100 metres long, 50 wide and 1.5m deep. Now, picture the baths full of small grey solid blocks stacked up from the bottom of the pool and a further 4.5m up past the edge of the pool into the air. That is a huge amount of something, but what?

            Well here in the Hunter valley we have about 300,000 homes. And I just hear you saying “so what”.

            Just be patient, because about 18 months ago I was shown through a home that had a solar rooftop system plus a bank of storage batteries, the best and most efficient at the time, lead acid. The volume of those batteries was close to 0.1 cubic metres.

            So this is the thoughty: if every home in the Hunter was “self sufficient” then about every five years the mass I described in our local pool would be the amount of lead, plastic and concentrated sulphuric acid that would need need to be “recycled”.

            That’s the lifespan of that green technology.

            Very “green” I don’t think.

            KK

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            • #
              Willard

              Lead acid Keith’s? “The best and most efficent” here’s a “thoughtie” for you Keith ring up the engineers at LG Chem, Samsung of South Korea, Tesla USA, Senec of Germany and Panasonic of Japan and tell them forget Lithium guys, you’re doing it all wrong.
              ( don’t get me wrong though KK lead acid is a handy product for the applications its suited for)

              25

              • #
                KinkyKeith

                I know someone who’s garage was gutted by fire during a charging accident.

                I wouldn’t live in a home sitting on top of a bank of lipos.

                And yes, this type of exchange can go on forever, but you or you’ve served your purpose, so goodbye.

                :-)

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              • #
                Willard

                “You know someone who’s garage was gutted by fire during a charging accident” how did that happen Keith? Did they spill the electricity during recharging? .all jokes aside, charging batteries is not 100% perfectly safe but then again how many garages/houses catch fire due to non-charging issues? Do you want to go through a discussion on EV fires verses petrol car fires Keith’s? No? I think you’re being wise in backing out of this discussion now before you get put in your place.

                25

              • #
                AndyG55

                Legendary Motor Developer Calls Electric Cars An “Environmental Fraud” …”Dangerous False Path”!

                http://notrickszone.com/2017/02/12/legendary-motor-developer-calls-electric-cars-an-environmental-fraud-dangerous-false-path/#sthash.LFHlWBUd.dpbs

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              • #
                Willard

                Methinks AndyG55 has become desperate now by linking the old chestnut of the petrol car is cleaner than Coal fired EV line, sorry Andy, it’s old and tired and incorrect, best you stick to the original discussion of battery storage because you are taking a bath trying to prove you know something “sinister” about electric cars.

                14

              • #
                AndyG55

                Pretty sure basically everyone, especially a car designer, knows WAY more than you.. A song for you.. the words suit you to a tee.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2npZLdxkZQ

                Nothing sinister about EV, just a waste of time and tax-payer subsidies.

                Do you own one, dullard? How much subsidy did you take?

                21

              • #
                Willard

                Legendary motor developer cites a study released 5 years ago
                Legendary motor developer cant get over the fact that the fastest accelerating production car ever built is not his precious piston engine variety but full electric.
                Legendary motor developer is struggling with the reality that all he’s worked for, all he was led to believe and all he spoke about, that being the internal combustion passenger car is near the end of its time,
                Legendary motor designer retired 12 years ago and should have stayed that way.
                No EV subsidies in Australia AndyG, not needed, let market forces sort out the passenger car industry, I hear BMW are asking for them, just them being greedy.

                02

              • #
                AndyG55

                “let market forces sort out the passenger car industry”

                They are ! :-)

                http://acapmag.com.au/home/2017/01/ev-sales-plummet-australia/

                “Legendary motor designer retired 12 years ago and should have stayed that way”

                Can’t have people who actually know what they are talking about have a say, can we now.

                You wouldn’t be a totalitarian leftist by any chance, would you dullard?

                12

              • #
                AndyG55

                “In sharp contrast, more than 363,000 diesel vehicles were sold in Australia last year, an increase of 8.6%.

                Petrol-powered cars, however, still dominate the market, with more than 768,000 sold last year.

                Dullard obviously only hangs in his inner city ghetto, never been out of the suburb, right !

                Do you own an EV? You seem to have avoided that question so far.

                Or do you just borrow mum’s SUV when she let’s you?

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              • #
                Willard

                Only two brands sell new full EVs in Australia, BMW sell the i3, Tesla sell the model X and S, Tesla don’t submit sales figures to Vfacts, all those Renaults, Hyundai, GM and other electric cars sold in Europe aren’t available in Australia, but why would a car Aussie dealer want to stock a car that will rarely come back in for servicing or mechanical repair, there going to do everything to hold back the tide until one cracks under pressure.

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              • #
                tom0mason

                Read something interesting Willard. The true cost of electric vehicles…

                https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2016/09/16/electric-car-miles-per-gallon/

                11

              • #
                Rod Stuart

                First there was Bill Nye, the Science guy, and now there is old Weird Willard, the battery guy.

                21

              • #
              • #
                AndyG55

                That’s a pathetic excuse for plummeting EV sales in Australia, dullard.

                Do keep dreaming them up, so we can all have a laugh.

                11

              • #
                Willard

                Weird Willard the battery guy, fair enough, but I don’t wear a silly tie.

                01

              • #
                Willard

                Laugh all you like Andy, bit of humour and ridicule keeps he posts rolling in, let’s see how EVs are going over the next few years, so back to that battery storage that you keep avoiding…….

                01

              • #
                Willard

                Here’s one for you Tomo- https://electrek.co/2017/02/13/tesla-united-arab-emirates-middle-east/ Tesla selling electric cars in countries that have more cheap petrol than they know what to do with.

                01

              • #
                tom0mason

                Yep Willard at every turn you prove that these are just rich peoples toys and not made for ordinary people.

                As Chiefio points out for ordinary people these retched toys are for the rich.

                00

              • #
                Willard

                So how long before the EVs for the rich line drys up Tomo? latest GM electric car ( the bolt not the volt) is $US35K as each car maker gets a product out the price drops, less cost more range, whats your claim them Tomo, start thinking one up to get in early.

                00

              • #
                PhilJourdan

                @Willard:

                So how long before the EVs for the rich line drys up Tomo? latest GM electric car ( the bolt not the volt) is $US35K as each car maker gets a product out the price drops, less cost more range, whats your claim them Tomo, start thinking one up to get in early.

                That is the trend of ALL cars. The cars of today are faster, more efficient, and (adjusted for inflation) cheaper than the cars of yesterday. And that is the market at work. AN initial model must recoup not only the COGS, but the R&D. However, the second and later versions only have to recover the R&D for the changes, not the entire product.

                If EVs are economical, the market will support them, without government help. As long as the government interferes, it is FORCING everyone to support them, whether they like them or not. I have never bought a Mustang. So not a cent of mine has gone to support that model. The same cannot be said for a Tesla or Volt/Blot.

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        • #
          scotsmaninutah

          Alfred
          thank you for posting ,the link was a great read and a very pertinent article, especially so because of the numbers involved.

          10

      • #
        scotsmaninutah

        hi Willard, of course there exist electric excavators, however my point was that for large scale industrial mining the use of ( (tethered) electric excavators is not really practicable ( 10+ ton “bucket tear out” capacity )

        As for Lithium being quite rare, (it is found in only 0.0017 percent, by weight, of the Earth’s crust,) so I am sticking to my statement.

        Note: interestingly enough potassium-ion based batteries are now being promoted as a possible replacement for Lithium-ion technologies as they have higher energy densities and are 900 times more abundant than Lithium.

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        • #
          Willard

          You make a fair point Scotsman, in 5 years Litihum may not be the method of choice, interesting times ahead.

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  • #
    Robert Rosicka

    We as taxpayers need to push for accountability of politicians and their decisions and have it enshrined in law .
    The only accountability they have is by getting voted out , not good enough ,make them ,their party and any registered party member personally liable for incompetent decisions that waste tax payer money .

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    doc

    Looks like trying to solve the problems at government level by making empty threats. South Australia is a basket case and nobody is going to race to help it out, pour good money we don’t have after bad simply because some stupid politions went out on a limb making insane decisions. Yet it seems this disease is so bad in the Labor Party that Victoria, Qld and WA Labor all want to follow suit, but go further. I doubt the people of those States even have the interest in politics to even think for a minute about what these fools are aiming to do with their living standards. We should all be on the streets – where a lot of us may well end up eventually unless our polity in general, and Labor and the Greens in particular get brain transplants.
    SA is already soaking up WA GST funds; funds going to waste while WA is forced into deeper and deeper debt at the hands of all the other governments. When are people going to wake up that our Parliaments that we elect are full of absolute dickheads that feel secure in their occupation of Parliamentary seats and what they bring down on the people is totally off the planet. Are they all little dictators looking to increase their power thrills by subjecting the people to increasing hardship and penury?
    The way people are just sitting back and taking this stuff is wierd.

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    Amber

    Cut the ABC ‘s power first . The promoters of the biggest scam in history
    should be the first ones to pay the consequences of the fraud shoved right
    up their arrogant preachy beaks .

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  • #
    Egor the One

    How to fix the SA power problems?

    First step would be to sack WeatherDill and Co?

    Second step : Dynamite their WindMills and immediately desubsidize all renewables…..no more free taxpayer funded rorts.

    Third step: Immediately arrest and prosecute all responsible for this farce….in fact, a well worth while royal commission into this whole racket should be established and with wide ranging powers.

    Forth step: the prompt recommissioning of suitable coal and gas fired power stations….real solutions instead of rackets and ratbag theories allowed to run rampant.

    Fifth step: Greens party deregistration for the systematic spreading of anti national propaganda and policy that is detrimental to the well being of Australia and its people.

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    • #
      Michael P

      Why not just pass legistation outlawing the Greens as being a terrorist organization? They act as much sometimes.

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    • #
      KinkyKeith

      I see that the Greens may have problems with the federal government over compliance issues relating to financial record keeping and accounting.

      With a little attention to where Australians place their next votes we could put others into parliament in their place: by now most electricity users and business owners especially should know that the Greens mean business.

      Yes, they are out to destroy it.

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    Renato

    I see a few comments here suggesting voters getting rid of the SA government, and a few comments blaming the voters for electing the Labor governments that caused the disaster.

    The other notable thing about the State of South Australia, is that it has a habit of very often electing Governments with a minority of the popular vote. Such is meant to happen occasionally, like where a party has done an extraordinary job at winning marginal seats. But when it happens too often, with regularity – as is the case in SA – the word “gerrymander” comes to mind.

    Even former Labor powerbroker Graham Richardson said as much on Sky after the last election, where the Labor won the election but lost the popular vote by a margin that would have led to nearly a landslide for the Opposition in most other States.

    Could SA have gotten to this position if the election results in the last 20 years had largely reflected the popular vote?
    Regards.

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    Robert Rosicka

    Just seen an article on “their abc” about a business in South Australia that has to shutdown when the spot price for electricity gets too high , this is something we don’t really hear enough of .

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  • #
    lemiere jacques

    topic “du jour”

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    Kim

    Rather than a top down approach on these matters, I would suggest a bottom up approach. The government should assure energy security. Anyone wishing to use renewable energy should do this off grid.

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    Fang

    With the discussion up earlier in this thread! Willard,Rom, Tonfromoz, ect….
    There was some info missing from grid scale batterys! As a RC Modeler over the last 15 years, Ive seen and played with the Lithium chemistry batterys that have revolutionized the modeling fraternity! BUT! We still have the issue with ANY! Battery, is fire! Any battery that needs charging/discharging cycles can catch on fire, and regardless of what type of battery we use for grid system! Fire is and will be a major consideration! Therfore cost of said batterys go even futher out the door as a supply backup!
    Come back to our state goverments get srunk down to the major captial citys, (Victoria is state of Melbourne ect….) and our local councils become federally recognized to deal with! Then we can drive to our local councilors, and kick their figging Asses, when they are tacking us locals in the direction we dont like!

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