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Big-gov-brain wants “half a trillion” to add ice to the Arctic

Sometimes an idea comes along that adds another chapter to the Book of Stupid. You might think windmills on land are an indulgent, pointless fantasy, but take that idea and make it worse:

(CNN) A team of scientists has a surprisingly simple solution to saving the Arctic: We need to make more ice.

A team at Arizona State University has proposed building 10 million wind-powered pumps to draw up water and spill it out onto the surface of the ice, where it will freeze faster. Doing so would be complicated and expensive — it’s estimated to cost a cool $500 billion, and right now the proposal is only theoretical.

It’s not like we have anything better to do with half a trillion dollars.  Should we cure cancer or refrigerate one of the coldest places on Earth? Should we teach our kids about the fall of civilizations, or teach them to bow before prophets who keep predicting the end of the Arctic and getting it wrong?

Or we could add ice to the whole arctic for just $5 trillion

Tristan Hopper explains the beefed up plan would absorb the “entire steel production of the United States”, “half the worlds container fleet”, and cost about the same as the “GDP of Japan”. It would also make 163 million tonnes of CO2. He’s serious, and so are the ivory tower guys:

“… the researchers from Arizona State University call the cost “economically achievable” and the environmental impact “negligible.””

We could fund it all by giving up on universities right now. When it comes to the Tertiary Sector — just say “No”.

Mech-madness

The giant water pumps would sit on buoys floating in the Arctic Sea. They would take up water from beneath the ice, store it in a tank and then spray the water on top of the ice.

The machines would be powered by the wind, which is plentiful in the Arctic, in a similar way to windmills you see creating power on farms.

Yes, it’ll be just like windmills on farms, except they float on water, are subject to extreme weather, and produces nothing that any human needs within a 3,000km radius.

The team estimates in the paper that 10 million devices could add a meter of sea ice onto the current level of ice over the course of a winter. That’s a meter of ice on each tenth of a square kilometer.

“That’s a significant change,” said Desch. The sea ice only grows two to three meters in thickness during the winter.

To make a dent in the loss of ice, you would need to cover about 10% of the Arctic, which adds up to 10 million machines, he said.

What could possibly go wrong? The noise from ten million wind turbines might drive ten thousand whales crazy and destroy the sleep of a million polar bears.

Where is Greenpeace when you need them.

h/t Vaun

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223 comments to Big-gov-brain wants “half a trillion” to add ice to the Arctic

  • #
    toorightmate

    The team from Arizona State University are on ice.

    170

  • #
    Hasbeen

    When did universities start a major in comedy?

    270

  • #
    mothcatcher

    The environmental impact would be “negligible”

    How many trillions of dollars would we need to spend before we actually got a NON negligible result, then?

    231

    • #
      Dennis

      Well, as you must understand, one billion is not very much money, can’t be because politicians throw that amount away like petty cash.

      131

    • #
      Bulldust

      The truly stupid thing missing that they are talking about ‘curing’ a symptom and not the disease. If one thinks global warming is a problem then one should look at ‘solutions’ which tackle that problem rather than the side effects of said problem. I would have thought someone intelligent enough to get into University would be Cleveland enough to see such a basic truth. Talking about high altitude aerosols to induce cooling is a real solution if warming is an issue, putting ice makers in the Arctic is not. Simples.

      As a UofA grad it would have been easy to take a cheap shot at ASU, but I am feeling magnanimous this morning … Yes early morning in Andorra.

      50

      • #

        Bulldust
        Ice holds less heat than water. So if it worked at all it would release heat to make the final product and create it in every process along the way.
        As well as obstructing cooling convection with the wind turbines.

        30

      • #
        ColA

        Please PLEASE don’t talk about geo-engineering the atmosphere, honestly the notion of putting huge amounts of anything in the air in order to “fix” anything is grossly insane, we have enough problems with know it all “scientists” sprouting total BS as above without fertilizing their tiny minds with even worse BS ideas!

        10

  • #
    Patrick

    I designed a wind powered pump ad my honours project at university in the 1970s. It needs some more work to get in operating efficiently. Can I please have a grant?

    140

  • #
    RobK

    A tidy service contract in the making. There’d be a fair chance to machines themselves would ice-up. These clowns have obviously got nothing better to do. Dumb idea.

    150

    • #
      Greg Cavanagh

      You heat the water as you draw it up and store it, you also heat the machinery to stop it all freezing solid.

      Then you pump and spray the water out over hundreds of kilometres. Easy!

      60

  • #
    u.k.(us)

    Lets get serious, not every crack-pot theory deserves to see the light of day ??

    90

  • #
    Keith

    This cannot be a real story, surely! No One is that dumb! We are messing with evolution when we allow this crap to have oxygen.

    150

    • #
      Ted O'Brien.

      Too much money spent on this one already!

      50

    • #
      Albert

      Must be ‘fake news’

      40

    • #
      sophocles

      We are messing with evolution allowing such geniuses to have oxygen.

      Einstein truly summed it up with his oft quoted aphorism about the infinite:
      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.

      The whole question about “restoring” Arctic ice is Why?

      40

  • #
    Steve

    These are post-modern universities, otherwise homes for the mentally deranged. It is supposed to keep them out of harm’s way. But sometimes they escape …

    231

    • #

      Steve February 19, 2017 at 1:27 am

      “These are post-modern universities, otherwise homes for the mentally deranged. It is supposed to keep them out of harm’s way. But sometimes they escape ”

      Please try to consider who\what is running the asylum\university! Is that distinguishable from ‘government’?

      61

    • #
      MudCrab

      Over the last few years I have been increasing of the belief that the true role of universities is to prevent the useless percentage of school leavers from cluttering up the youth job marker.

      70

  • #
    Oliver K. Manuel

    The grant guided motives of “consensus scientists” are too obvious for Trump to overlook.

    The late Professor Paul Kazuo Kuroda, the first nuclear scientist to examine Hiroshima’s ruins in AUG 1945, was already a creative genius, guided through life like “iron filings drawn to an magnet outside himself.”

    That intellectual humility allowed Kuroda to first realize that the “beginning of the world” was just like the destruction of Hiroshima.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10640850/TRIBUTE_TO_KURODA.pdf

    Thirty years later, the late Dr. Dwarka Das Sabu and I encountered incredible opposition to the publication/presentation of experimental data from meteorites that confirmed Kuroda’s 1945 insight into the “beginning of the world.”

    Before presenting the experimental data at the 1976 AGU Spring National Meeting, we sent a copy for publication in the “Transactions of the Missouri Academy of Sciences.”

    I will post a hyperlink to that paper, showing first experimental confirmation of the birth of the entire solar system in the explosion of a single supernova.

    71

    • #
      Oliver K. Manuel

      This paper first reported the supernova birth of the solar system [Trans. Missouri Academy of Sciences (1975)]. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10640850/Supernova_Birth_World.pdf

      Here are radioactive age datings of the solar system’s birth from a single supernova ~5 Ga ago and condensation of solids within the first ~10 Ma:

      http://www.omatumr.com/Data/1994Data.htm
      http://www.omatumr.com/Data/1996Data.htm

      30

      • #
        Oliver K. Manuel

        The date of ~5 Ga for the birth of the solar system is based on a combination of U238 /Pb206 and Pu244/Xe136 age dating of meteorites

        The dates of ~1-10 Ma for condensation of refractory grains of meteorites is based on Al26/Mg26 age dating of SiC (silicon carbide) grains in meteorites.

        20

        • #

          Oliver K. Manuel February 19, 2017 at 1:46 pm

          “The date of ~5 Ga for the birth of the solar system is based on a combination of U238 /Pb206 and Pu244/Xe136 age dating of meteorites?”

          Just what is it that allows you to assume that ~5 Ga had combinations of U238/Pb206 and Pu244/Xe136 to be anything like what is measurable more recently? I have no reason to consider your thinking incorrect. You provide no evidence that your thinking may possibly be correct! Why would you consider that some ‘birth of the solar system’, not encompass all of its history?
          All the best! -will-

          42

  • #
    James Murphy

    Carbon dioxide is remarkable stuff, if humans generate 163 million tonnes of it by, say, burning coal or gas to generate electricity, it’s a deadly pollutant, and causes all kinds of terrible ‘think of the children’ problems. If humans generate 163 million tonnes of it to ‘save the planet’, the environmental impact is “negligible”.

    At least none of these ‘researchers’ suggested that we could reduce sea-level by making more sea-ice…did they?

    130

  • #
    King Geo

    The Worlds largest meteorite crater is in Arizona. May I suggest escorting those Arizona State Uni Team members to this crater and bury them – their proposal for Arctic Sea Ice restoration would attract a response like this from famous New Yorker J. Mc – “you cannot be serious!!!”.

    80

  • #
    James Murphy

    What would a large scale operation involving spraying sea-water onto existing ice do to the natural sea-ice formation and retention process? I understand that, aside from the obvious aspect of turning water into a solid, the sea-ice formation mechanism is not the same as making ice cubes in a freezer, but could well be mistaken.

    I guess the next step would be to equip polar bears and seals with ice axes or chainsaws so they can cope with this extra metre of ice?

    60

  • #
    AndrewWA

    Seriously – and they call this science?!

    We have had satellite records only since 1979.
    Prior to then we have anecdotal records which indicate tha t the Arctic has been close to being ice free long before the dramatic (sarc) increase on atmospheric CO2 levels.

    NSIDC data for today show that the Arctic Sea Ice Extent is about 1,000,000 sq km below the 1981-2010 median. It is very close to the 2011-12 extent.

    Can I suggest that we’re just seeing normal variation.

    This scientific expectation that we can influence the planet to that extent and that it is worth the huge expenditure gobsmacks me. Academia has gone stark raving mad!

    131

  • #
    Curious George

    Would spraying water on the ice make more ice? I have a better idea – let’s pump water high in the stratosphere and let if fall down as snow. That would make more ice, also it would warm the stratosphere and therefore increase the ERL (Effective Radiation Level) temperature, thus cooling the planet even more. Forward, to a new Ice Age!

    90

    • #

      That is just what the 1000 Mph Eastward wind at the equator already does!

      71

    • #
      ExWarmist

      Beat me to it Curious.

      Sounds like an opportunity to write a sci-fi dystopia novel or movie.

      Hairbrained scheme to freeze the artic tips the world into the next glacial period with “catastrophic” results.

      They’ll probably have to nuke the Arctic from Orbit just to reverse the process.

      They’ll need someone to play a British Arch-Villain who just want’s to “Save the Planet from Humanity” who is trying to keep the machines running with a small army of white clad soldiers. The intrepid hero, with his new girlfriend (who’s an amazing computer hacker) and a side kick Husky (dog) named “Fergus” will save the day.

      50

  • #

    I guess they need some money to line their pockets.

    Everyone knows that the Arctic open water determines the “size” of the glaciers.

    As the recent paper disclosed, it is the Antarctic that determines when the ice age begins.

    With the stratospheric clouds due to cosmic rays (see Svenmark’s theory)
    reflecting the minimum solar activity, “may be soon” if those hunks of ice break off and reflect more radiation further out.

    (PS. send money to help with the “perpetual drought” in Calif and it’s “dry rain”.)

    120

    • #
      Roy Hogue

      …dry rain.

      You get a green thumb from me for that one. It was so dry yesterday that you needed SCUBA gear to go out in it. ;-)

      101

      • #
        AndyG55

        All that dust overflowing Oroville emergency weir turned the rivers all brown.

        101

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        It looks like the red thumb got wet along with the rest of us. Sorry about that, old man. I ordered the rain to shut down but it wouldn’t obey.

        20

    • #
      PeterPetrum

      You know, every time I hear some climate snowflake talking about the Arctic and the ice calving off in big chunks, I just can’t help thinking of the Titanic – or is that just an urban myth?

      40

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        …I just can’t help thinking of the Titanic – or is that just an urban myth?

        I expect some might like to rewrite that bit of history. After all, an iceberg floating down the North Atlantic is an inconvenient fact for them. But myth it isn’t. There were too many eye witnesses. And 1912 is recent history, history of a time when it was already getting warmer and warmer and warmer, yet a big chunk of Arctic ice sunk the worlds first and only “unsinkable ship”.

        30

    • #
      sophocles

      Oops, Svensmark’s hypothesis is about the modulation of low tropospheric cloud, ie clouds at low altitudes, like about 4000 t0 5000 metres.

      20

  • #

    what climate do scientists want us to return to and where and when did it last exist?

    tonyb

    200

    • #
      Dean from Ohio

      The Tyrannical Optimum, when anti-social, misanthropic people in black robes and funny hats were dictators without opposition or restraint.

      200

  • #
    Reed Coray

    I know in today’s world it’s fashionable to “Think outside the box.” The Arizona State “Team” that dreamed this up should be rounded up and put back in the box.

    170

  • #
    Gordon

    So would we have global cooling then? What if the machines malfunction? Is a global deep freeze possible? Lets just leave the climate alone. Seems to be doing fine.

    80

  • #
    turnedoutnice

    These people are seriously dumb. The windmill to power the pumps would have a thermodynamic efficiency of about 0.7 x 0.6 =0.42.

    So 58% of the captured energy would be released into the Arctic as heat. Then the water would melt existing ice!

    90

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    Big-gov-brain wants “half a trillion” to add ice to the Arctic

    I guess I should buy stock in ice making machine manufacturers, do ya think? With half a trillion to spend there’s bound to be a boom in ice making.

    On the other hand, if the Arctic is melting as they say then will even half a trillion be enough to keep up with it, not even adding any new ice.

    Frankly I think Arctic ice is a lot like rain in California. As soon as the experts become thoroughly convinced there’ll never be another chip of ice in the whole Arctic ocean it will freeze so hard and so thick that the Earth will become unbalanced and tip over, South Pole up. Now that would give them something they could legitimately worry about — how to get everyone to stand on their heads to remain right side up.

    God save us from these… ??? …I don’t even know a good title to give them anymore. To call them scientists is so far below the reality…

    130

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      This idea will cause problems in the Liberal media, because they will want to hail this ‘planet saving’ scheme while at the same time blaming it on Trump. Still, I am sure they will find a way to do both.

      100

    • #
      Yonniestone

      Increase government, print more money, raise taxes, restrict movement, align political parties, reduce infrastructure, control information, sanction activism, declare thought crimes, waste a huge amount of GDP on an impending catastrophe that no one is allowed to question……….what could go wrong?

      60

    • #
      jorgekafkazar

      God save us from these… ??? …I don’t even know a good title to give them anymore. To call them scientists is so far below the reality…

      Cacademics?

      30

      • #

        jorgekafkazar February 19, 2017 at 10:06 am

        (“God save us from these… ??? …I don’t even know a good title to give them anymore. To call them scientists is so far below the reality…”)

        “Cacademics?”

        Perhaps KaKa-infants! All subjects have the right to remain ignorant.

        10

    • #
      sophocles

      Now that would give them something they could legitimately worry about — how to get everyone to stand on their heads to remain right side up.

      Great suggestion Roy. That is at just the intellectual level required to keep those geniuses busy for the rest of their lives.

      Whatever you do, though, don’t let it out that we denizens of the Southern Hemisphere have no problems with being “upside down” whatsoever. It would spoil it for them. The only thing which is strange is the night sky: all the constellations are upside down :-)

      20

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        Sophocles,

        Here’s a short anecdote for you.

        I can still remember from grade school days when the fact that the Earth is a sphere was being taught and illustrated with a the usual globe map of the planet, how one student couldn’t understand why you down under were not all dangling from the ground by a thread ready to fall off. The misconception of course, is obvious. But to grade school level of experience it was a hard concept.

        I will guard your upside down secret with my life.

        The constellations are not the only thing. Even stranger still is the fact that the toilet swirls the other way around, clockwise instead of counterclockwise. That ought to confuse those who know nothing of physics to the point of talking to themselves. It’s hard to visualize why it’s that way even when you understand what’s going on. So maybe we should present them with that puzzle to work on instead.

        30

        • #
          Annie

          The sun travels in the opposite direction and you have to double over to see Orion properly, otherwise his sword points up instead of down. I miss seeing Orion the right way up!

          10

          • #
            Rod Stuart

            AND the hot water tap is on the wrong side of the sink, the light switches are all upside down, and the silly buggers drive on the wrong side of the road.

            10

            • #
              Roy Hogue

              On the wrong side of the road too? How do they stand it? Maybe we should start a charity to collect old right handed roads and sent them south. There are plenty of discarded roads here judging by their state of repair. So I’m sure we could get them at a steep discount.

              10

    • #
      Greg Cavanagh

      I think you should buy stocks (or stacks) of pitchforks. Won’t be long and they’ll be in hot demand.

      20

    • #
      Gordon

      Exactly how much fossil fuel would be required to create this ice?

      10

  • #
    Sparks

    It’s OK we have a team on this lol

    40

  • #

    Do they know the Arctic ice is meant to fluctuate, that it’s been going up and down like Berlusconi’s trousers since forever? Down after the Napoleonic Wars, up around the turn of the 20th century, down by the early 1920s, up in the 1970s…

    Do they know glaciers are meant to melt and retreat periodically so minerals, especially iron, can make their way into the oceans?

    Kids out of the kitchen, adults in. Please. Urgent.

    131

  • #
    Harry Passfield

    This is snow-flake news from whitepeace (no green in the arctic, is there? – then again, there are plenty of green (as in naive) idealists up at uni).

    50

  • #

    If someone suggested selling ice-makers to Eskimos, you would be thought ridiculous. But scale the ice-makers up a few billion times and you have the genius of the climate scientists.

    110

  • #
    TdeF

    Actually, the author said something profound

    ‘The really hard questions here aren’t mostly technical. They’re questions about what kind of planet we want and who we are

    Really? This from a Professor of Applied Physics?

    However it does match perfectly Kevin Rudd’s use of the greatest moral challenge of a generation. Note, not technical or financial or political, moral.

    When did controlling nature become a moral challenge? When did we get the ability to decide ‘what kind of planet we want’. Was it after the invention of the internet or the iphone or Youtube?

    When did did scientists and politicians and people in the street become Gods?

    This is mass megalomania and judging from this statement alone, the author is either a highly manipulative opportunist or barmy.

    170

    • #

      “Energy in Earth’s system is basically a one-way street : sun – ocean – atmosphere – space. (Please note that the ocean surface is warmer than the atmosphere, on average, so net energy transfer is indeed from ocean to atmosphere. See *).” -Anthony Watts, on 2-18-17
      * http://eesc.columbia.edu/courses/ees/climate/lectures/o_atm.html

      Yahoos can always ask more questions and propound more riddles than we can process. I wouldn’t say life is a one-way street, but i think the order is probably pretty good that Watts and his source have given.

      50

      • #
        bobl

        Err, Nope, one has to factor in the huge kinetic and potential energy stores of the planet and the conversion of heat energy to and from kinetic. It is a COMPLETE error to make the assumption that all energy leaves via radiation.

        50

    • #
      Ted O'Brien.

      “highly manipulative opportunist or barmy.”?

      Both!

      40

    • #
      sophocles

      I’m picking the invention of the iphone. “i” stands for “idiot.” Doesn’t it?

      10

  • #
    Annie

    Oh Heavens! April the 1st yet again!

    60

  • #
    AndyG55

    Silly child-minded twerp….do want to bring on a new Little Ice Age.?

    1979 was an extreme year for sea ice.

    Even now its way above what it would have been for most of the first 80% or so of the current interglacial.

    The denial of climate history by the Arctic Sea Ice Worriers is bizarre anti-science, to say the least.

    72

  • #
    David Maddison

    I just checked – it is not April 1st.

    What the hell has happened to universities?

    81

    • #
      AndyG55

      They still think they are under an Obama presidency,

      This is just the sort of anti-science nonsense that Lurch and Holdren would go for !!

      122

    • #
      jorgekafkazar

      What the hell has happened to universities?

      There’s something toxic in the insecticide they spray on the ivy-covered walls.

      30

      • #

        jorgekafkazar February 19, 2017 at 10:38 am

        “There’s something toxic, hallucinogenic, in the insecticide they spray on the ivy-covered walls.”

        Toxic would be much better!

        51

  • #
    AndyG55

    Not sure the Russians would allow this

    They want access to Arctic oil and sea routes..

    It would be much preferable to them for the sea ice level to dropped back nearer the Holocene average.

    72

  • #
    David Maddison

    To replace the “missing”‘ ice why can’t they just tow icebergs from the Antarctic? It would be cheaper and easier.

    50

    • #
      AndyG55

      Arctic is doing just fine.

      NSIDC has 2017 sea ice extent above 2016 for this day of the year.

      41

    • #
      Albert

      Perhaps they should turn the Earth upside down, but that may cause huge flooding as the ice melts

      40

      • #

        Albert February 19, 2017 at 10:03 am

        “Perhaps they should turn the Earth upside down, but that may cause huge flooding as the ice melts.”

        Now you may be discovering some learning of the concept of “gravitational fields”! Not the Kepler ‘capture of other solids into orbit’! Instead the very obvious effects on local surface ‘fluids’! Consider the huge difference between incompressible ‘ocean’,and very compressible, but less dense, ‘atmosphere’.
        Have your honorable\esteemed academic Climate Clowns ever even noticed the obvious? ‘Tis like, “each subject has the right to remain ignorant!” (used to be silent)!
        All the best! -will-

        21

  • #
    Egor the One

    Round ‘em up,lock ‘em away, and give ‘em some ice blocks to play with along with their ‘play dough’ and other ratbag Marxist cultural initiatives’.

    Or better still….How about a stick of dynamite with a 1 mm fuse each with a complimentary box of matches, and off they can go to their ‘safe places’!

    40

  • #
    Robdel

    Do the authors know any elementary thermodynamics? By reducing the entropy of the arctic, they are invariably increasing it elsewhere. It takes energy on a grand scale to do what they are proposing, so where will this excess energy go? Have they not learnt about refrigeration?

    100

  • #
    Annie

    Do the words ‘ big-gov’ and ‘brain’ belong together?

    70

  • #
    John F. Hultquist

    of a million polar bears

    You’ve been told a zillion times not to exaggerate!
    Now cut it out.

    50

    • #

      John F. Hultquist February 19, 2017 at 8:34 am

      (“of a million polar bears”) “You’ve been told a zillion times not to exaggerate! Now cut it out.”

      Is that in zeptoJoules or (1/zeptoJoules)? What is the inverse of exaggeration?

      31

      • #
        Greg Cavanagh

        Antonyms for exaggerate (I like the “ignore” one myself).
        compress
        contract
        decrease
        ignore
        lessen
        play down
        abridge
        be modest
        deprecate
        lower
        reduce
        shrink
        depreciate
        minimize

        20

        • #

          an·to·nym
          ˈan(t)əˌnim/
          nounLinguistics

          a word opposite in meaning to another (e.g., bad and good ).

          Not opposite, but inverse, upside down! Even worse is ‘conjugate, the complete opposite, negative, and ‘upside down’ (inverse) all together! Oh woha are we! :-)

          10

  • #
    Rick Will

    Sea ice has very little salt content. The salt is rejected as it freezes and highly saline water escapes through micro fissures. Snow falling on existing sea ice has even less salt content than the ice. Adding salt to water lowers the freezing point. So pumping salt water on to sea ice will likely create a slushy mess. It would then reflect less solar radiation and would cause additional heating. There is a reasonable prospect of such a system having the reverse of its intended purpose.

    Taking time to comment on this naval gazing indicates it a lazy day in Melbourne. Some rain and not yet warm enough to go outside – mid February and 7C outside at 9am. What is happening to our global warming? I also note that the Arctic is 2C above average today – only a face numbing 26C below freezing.

    120

  • #
    David Maddison

    O/T

    Good. Let SA freeze in the dark. They voted in the government and deserve what they get.

    I can’t wait until the Green fantasy is fulfilled when Hazelwood is shut fown and blown up and there is no more spare electricity.

    http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/owner-of-pelican-point-power-station-says-it-cannot-rescue-south-australia-from-ongoing-blackouts/news-story/4d56def6d2b4dc7731a670fd33eea7cd

    90

  • #
    doubtingdave

    just wanted to come and apologise to people , for my behaviour in recent times , especially KINKY KEITH ; I really do respect your views but I have had a difficult time lately , and get frustrated , I regret my asinine comments , and just wanted to wish you all the best , all of you are good folk , in spite of the fact we might disagree on topics and that is what makes this blog special

    90

    • #
      Annie

      Good on ya’ Dave. I hope things are better for you now. I know I get my cranky moments; especially when the world looks madder than ever and I wonder if there are many left who can see a bit of commonsense.

      30

  • #
    David Maddison

    Wouldn’t pumping up ocean water on this grand scale cause the sucking in of warmer water from beyond the arctic circle thus raising the temperature of the Arctic Ocean causing more ice to melt?

    70

    • #
      Yonniestone

      You’d assume the regional water would be cold already but increasing ice with finite ocean capacity would cause sea levels to drop, apparently its happened before……..

      30

  • #

    Seems like they corrected the dr evil one million dollars mistake …
    The joke has become reality.

    20

  • #
    Crakar24

    https://www.iceagenow.info/new-orwellian-meaning-ice-free/

    Follow this link for the definition of ice free, imagine the entire state of SA covered in 3ft of ice……and you wonder where they come up with junk like this

    51

  • #
    David Maddison

    Even assuming there was an actual problem with retreating sea ice (which comes and goes naturally in any case) what exactly is creating more sea ice meant to achieve anyway?

    62

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        AndyG55

        Why do I find it not the least bit strange that this is under the auspices of “Scientific American” ?! ;-)

        The “Scientific American” quality we are getting very used to seeing.

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          ROM

          And to rival “Scientific American” in the stupidity and ignorance stakes, a real probability of an evolutionary extinction for penguins, from the Earth Saving and the hell with reality, “whack a doodle” Greenpeace organisation;

          [ Item from around 12 months ago'.]

          Greenpeace to Start Relocating Polar Bears to Antarctica ;

          In a move that some regard as “misguided,” Greenpeace has decided to relocate over 100 polar bears from the Arctic north, to the Antarctic south. The plan is to have roughly 50 males and 50 female polar bears captured and then shipped by C130 cargo plane to the southernmost continent.
          &
          Greenpeace hopes to generate a sustainable population of the bears, as a secondary population center in the event that the Arctic Circle becomes uninhabitable.

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          • #
            sophocles

            What sort of geniuses do they breed in the Northern Hemisphere?
            Antarctica is way colder than the Arctic. Would they survive?

            Second: They would have to provide all the Southern Hemisphere nations with a thorough environmental impact report which includes such things as diet, population control etc. I can predict such an idea would have about the same popularity among those nations within proximity of Antarctica as releasing snakes in Ireland, which has no snakes at present.

            Whatever. We would have to round them up and deliver them back. I think re-releasing them in the back yards of the idiots who thought of this would be highly appropriate.

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          • #
            AndyG55

            Don’t these dolts realise that the Antarctic is FREEZING cold ice, ALL YEAR, surrounded by sea ice …

            ….But the Arctic is a zone of annual sea ice surrounded by land ??

            I really hope that Greenpeace are fined massively for every bear that dies… which would be all of them.

            What an non-thinking, inhumane proposition.

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    • #
      Ken Lloyd

      Exactly! From where does anyone get the idea of what is an “optimum” quantity of ice on the planet? In any case, an attempt to meddle in natural climatic events at this scale is about as futile as Canute ordering the tide to recede.

      This proposal is nothing more than an early April fool prank.

      30

      • #
        sophocles

        Overall, the annual amount of ice on this planet is pretty constant. What the northern hemisphere loses, the southern hemisphere gains.

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  • #
    Radical Rodent

    In the not-too-distant past (1970s), there was a similarly hare-brained scheme to do the reverse – to melt the ice, as we were heading into a new ice age!

    40

  • #
    John PAK

    Plugging those 200ºC hydro-thermal vents along the Gakkel Ridge might be a lucrative and equally stupid idea.

    30

  • #
    Brett

    So what if they spent this money and the Russians decided to build their dam:
    How the USSR Tried to Melt the Arctic
    I liked this bit from the article (in reference to Rick’s post #35)

    His goal was to remove a 200-foot layer of cold surface water, which would be replaced by warmer, saltier water that would not freeze

    Sort of reminds me of this article as well:
    Weather Control as a Cold War Weapon

    Plus the Russians goal of reflective mirrors in space (Znamya)

    30

  • #
    David Maddison

    This is the web page of Steven Desch, one of the proponents of this idea.

    http://physics-dev.asu.edu/home/people/additional-graduate-faculty/steven-desch

    20

  • #
    Owen Morgan

    Carroll, thou shouldst be living at this hour.

    20

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    Ruairi

    The seventies great Arctic threat,
    With proposals and plans could be met,
    For warming its sea,
    And keep it ice-free,
    By changing where rivers outlet.

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  • #
    pat

    glad jo posted this, cos I was reminded to dig out this one I saved earlier in the week:

    13 Feb: ClimateActionProgramme: Norwegian eco snow machines secure the future of skiing
    Norwegian researchers are developing a machine capable of simultaneously producing snow and heating homes, in a bid to save winter sports from the impacts of climate change…
    Researchers at SINTEF, Scandinavia’s largest independent research institute, and at the Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU) believe that an adaptation of the technology used in domestic fridges and freezers can solve this problem…
    The project is supported by a 2.3 million krone ($300,000) grant from the Norwegian Ministry of Culture which argues that skiing is engrained in the country’s culture…
    Jacob Stang, Researcher at SINTEF, said: “A traditional snow-production facility that makes snow at zero degrees outdoors has no ‘hot side’. That means we need a heat pump that has the properties of a refrigeration plant. We have to adapt components, such as an evaporator and condenser, to get them to work together.”…
    The technology could also expand the horizons of the sport by bringing snow to places it would not usually be available.
    http://www.climateactionprogramme.org/news/norwegian_eco_snow_machines_secure_the_future_of_skiing

    21

  • #
    Egor the One

    This SCAM knows no boundaries. From Billions to Trillions now.

    Their end game is obvious to any with a brain: That is, when the global average Temp does not runaway, they,the scammers, will claim that their (pretend)counters were/are being/have been successful.
    They will claim that we will always have to do more to achieve the best desired outcome(world socialism for the masses but not for the self proclaimed elite ruling class).

    Even if it cools, they will spin it that somehow our lack of effort ‘TO DO SOMETHING’ has had/will have a reverse effect !

    …..There is always a BS answer, and do not forget that there is also in the mix, to administer all this(rubbish),the propaganda of the need to have some New World (dis)Order/One World Government(dictatorship) that conveniently can not be voted out!….An extension of,or super version of our present day UN(Unelected Nutters).

    Of course, there are spanners in the works, such as ‘the Donald’ and now with others also starting to become prominent.

    This is the scammers real panic now: if they are stopped from doing anything ‘significant’,and nothing climate related happens, then they will be seen by all to be the kooks and crooks that they are, although who knows what levels of BS they will stoop to in such an event to justify themselves.

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    • #
      David Maddison

      I think that the Greentards know the game is over especially with Trump in power and his worldwide influence so that’s why they are pushing harder than usual to embed more expensive and unreliable electricity production.

      40

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    pat

    Xenophon wants big-gov:

    19 Feb: SBS: AAP: Xenophon wants emissions scheme set up
    Crossbench senator Nick Xenophon wants the federal government to look at putting in place an emissions intensity scheme.
    “More and more experts are saying that that is the best way to reduce power prices and ensure security of energy supply,” Nick Xenophon told ABC TV on Sunday.
    The government ruled out such a scheme, which would make electricity generators pay for the pollution they cause in making power, a day after suggesting a review of its climate change policies may consider one.
    Senator Xenophon says rising power prices and a series of blackouts are killing his home state of South Australia.
    He’d like to see more gas generation and solar thermal mixed in with renewable energy.

    The government has been promoting high efficiency, low emissions coal-fired generation as a way forward but there is no appetite in the energy sector to build new coal plants.
    Senator Xenophon said coal was still quite dirty and there didn’t seem to be clear evidence it could get much cleaner than where technology is now.
    “The way to achieve our Paris agreement (emissions reduction) targets … is to have more gas-fired generators in the short-term to give you the baseload of supply, and of course, once we get battery storage perfected, then you can let it rip in terms of intermittent forms of energy supply,” he said.
    “There’s a toxic culture of politics in Canberra that seems to prevent people sitting down together in a room from all sides of politics and thrashing this out and working it out.”…READ ON
    http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/02/19/xenophon-wants-emissions-scheme-set

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    • #
      AndyG55

      “There’s a toxic culture of politics in Canberra”

      Yes, Nik-X… and YOU are one of the main causes.

      Prancing around with your attention seeking agenda, instead of working to actually fix the problem.

      Supporting the Government on HELE coal fired replacement of aging coal power stations would have a huge effect on reducing real pollution as well as the “pretend” pollution, CO₂

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    Robert Rosicka

    So if an official ETS gets thru they may just solve the looming energy crisis once Hazelwood closes .
    Electricity will become so expensive those on below average income won’t be able to afford it .
    With extra electrons floating around SA might just get away without another blackout because there will be heaps of spare supply ! ? Hey I see what you’re up to Nick from south Australia , nice try , nice try but I’m onto you .

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    Rod Stuart

    Are these people on ice? Or are they all manic-depressive?

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    pat

    19 Feb: UK Daily Mail: David Rose: US Congress launches a probe into climate data that duped world leaders over global warming
    Republican Lamar Smith has announced an inquiry to acting chief of NOAA
    He has demanded for all internal documents and communications between staff
    It follows an investigation by the Mail on Sunday and information leaked by Dr John Bates
    In his letter to NOAA, Congressman Smith expresses frustration that previous demands for documents about the Pausebuster were not met, although his committee took the unusual step of issuing a legal subpoena. NOAA’s decision to withhold the documents was, he wrote, ‘without any justification in law’.
    As for the revelations by this newspaper, Mr Smith said they ‘raise additional questions as to whether the science at NOAA is objective and free from political interference’. NOAA has said it intends to bring in ???‘independent outside parties’ to investigate the Pausebuster and the flawed datasets…
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4238806/US-Congress-launches-probe-climate-data.html

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    dp

    Somebody doesn’t understand well how energy works. This silly exercise will not remove a single calorie from the Earth system and send it on its way to the stars.

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    Brett

    When the turbines freeze up they can send these little guys up…

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    pat

    18 Feb: American Thinker: Democrats’ Real Global Warming Fraud Revealed
    by Dennis T. Avery
    (Dennis Avery, a former senior analyst for the U.S. State Department, and co-authored Unstoppable Global Warming Every 1,500 Years with astrophysicist S. Fred Singer.
    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2017/02/democrats_real_global_warming_fraud_revealed.html

    nothing political about CAGW!

    17 Feb: CatholicNewsAgency: Pope Francis encourages meeting of popular movements in California
    Pope Francis on Friday sent a message of encouragement to the hundreds of religious and community leaders participating in a meeting of popular movements being held this week in California…
    The Feb. 16-18 conference being held in Modesto, about 30 miles southeast of Stockton, was organized with the support of the Dicastery for Promoting Integral Human Development, the Catholic Campaign for Human Development, and the PICO National Network.
    The PICO network was a recipient of part of a $650,000 grant from George Soros’ Open Society Foundations…
    The Pope confronted the “invisible tyranny of money” as a disability and restriction to human dignity and the common good…
    “The ecological crisis is real,” he emphasized first. “Science is not the only form of knowledge, it is true. It is also true that science is not necessarily ‘neutral’ — many times it conceals ideological views or economic interests. However, we also know what happens when we deny science and disregard the voice of Nature…
    “I would also like to highlight the work done by the PICO National Network and the organizations promoting this meeting,” Pope Francis also said. “I learned that PICO stands for ‘People Improving Communities through Organizing’…
    COMMENT: Phil: I wonder if Pope Francis knows who George Soros is? I don’t know where Pope Francis is going with being so involved in the LIBERAL politics (repeat LIBERAL politics) of America…ETC
    http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-encourages-meeting-of-popular-movements-in-california-89704/

    17 Feb: WTOP: AP: Vatican-sponsored conference criticizes Trump orders
    The conference opened Thursday with the first names called of some two dozen activists who did not attend because they were fearful of the political climate.
    Trump won 52 percent of the Catholic vote, propelled by strong support from white Catholics, according to the Pew Research Center.
    Not all oppose the president’s orders…

    Wikipedia: PICO National Network
    The organization is headquartered in Oakland, California, with additional offices in San Diego and Washington, D.C.
    PICO National Network was founded in 1972 by John Baumann, a Jesuit priest, as the Pacific Institute for Community Organization (PICO), headquartered in Oakland, California. In the late 1960s Baumann had worked with community organizing projects in Chicago, where he became familiar with Saul Alinsky’s ideas…
    The Ford Foundation is a major donor to PICO. In 2015, PICO was added to the list of the Democracy Alliance’s recommended funding targets. PICO has received funding from the Open Society Foundations…

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    Mjw

    Here is an idea, send all of the Climate scientists to the Acrtic Circle, give them a bucket and they can throw the water onto the ice. As an added benefit it would give the endangered polar bears something to eat.

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    ROM

    I gather that without reading every post above individually, there is universal sarcasm and disgust and even contempt being expressed as to the intellectual qualifications needed to be a member of the academic “Global Climate Modifying Technology Centre of Excellence Group” which is very closely associated and tightly linked with and part of the “Saving the Planet Club” which has become part and parcel today of nearly every University’s academic, completely isolated from reality, academic bubble structure.

    The above University structures should also include the “Academic and Planet Savers Psychology and Zoology” exhibit for which tickets could be sold to the public so the public can be entertained on a daily basis by the “Climate Change Academic and Climate Modeling Peacocks “as they continue to produce their ever varying displays of intellectually and highly vaporous rainbow coloured concepts to “Save the Planet”.

    Such an exhibit would be a vital tool of education for the public as they are becoming increasingly confused as to just what the “Planet has to be Saved From” other than gross academic and climate alarmism scientists outright stupidity allied with a very large dose of blatantly open hubris and ignorance along with a total absence of any numerical abilities to do the most simple of sums or just look a few items on the internet first before openly exhibiting their so obvious simple minded mentalities.
    ——————-

    However instead of just knocking and slating such forward thinking “Saving the Planet despite what it will cost us [ not "them" of course but "us"! ] academic thinking and the scientists who bring forward these truly “out of this world” concepts to “Save the Planet”, we the public, and the politicals should consider another approach that would take advantage of the “out of this world” range of thinking of the “climate change”academics.

    Here in Australia we have various scientific “Centres of Excelllence”, Excellence in what I am yet to find out or observe but we have them whatever they are supposed to do.

    So as an alternative to just deriding the “Save the Planeters” why not set up a major facility somewhere in the World where the world’s dedicated “Saving the Planet “academics and researchers and “Climate Change Alarmist” scientists and ” Desperate Climate Modellers” who are yet to guess any salient facts on the climate, along with a whole gamut of dedicated, may be I could even say fanatical devotees of those “Saving the Planet” and “Climate Change Alarmist” academics can all be concentrated so that there is a free flow of ideas and concepts being generated along with their fanatical supporters and apologists such as participants in SkS could be used to both produce and supply the “Save the Planet”/ Climate Change alarmist / Climate Catastrophe Prevention scientists with everything needed so that they can work at their leisure and the study of the rapidly disintegrating global climate and to ensure their comforts and “just like home” personal bubbles of comfort and convenience.

    Now a little research on my part suggests that a suitable location for such a universal, saving the planet / climate change catastrophe study establishment and facility would be the “West Falkland Island”.

    The West Falkland Island with a population of only around 200 people and an area of some 4500 sq kilometres, located in the stormy, windy South Atlantic where pollution and “carbon” free wind turbine power could be used exclusively for power for such a major Climate Change study facility with only an odd couple of weeks every now and then of no power at all inconvenience.
    The Falklands are close to the rapidly changing and colder polar areas of the planet as well as being surrounded by thousands of kilometres distance open ocean so as to mitigate any land area effects of close by land surface artefacts and data recording distortion problems.
    At 4500 sq kilometers West Falkland is placed around 166 in the land areas of the 195 nation/ states listed by Wiki, so it is more than large enough in area to say support and even produce the necessary food and other products to support major a climate change /Planet saving scientific institute of some thousands of climate alarmist scientists and their supporters and devotees.

    Furthermore the British who own and control the Falkland Islands despite the best efforts of the Argies some years back, are very liberal in their attitudes to free speech so the resident climate alarmist scientists could say what they like with the advantage that being so far from any MSM outlets, the rest of us wouldn’t have to put up with the regular rank stupidity outpourings of those same Climate Change Alarmist scientists / Saving the Planet scientists.

    And the British have built a billion pound airfield at Fort Stanley in the Eastern Falkland island which after a drive of a couple of hundred kilometers over rough dirt and gravel roads and the crossing of a very rough water channel between the West and East Falkland islands, the Climate Alarmist and Planet Saving scientists could make contact with the distractions of the outside world at any time.

    The Falkland’s bracing climate with its mean summer average temperature of about 9C and its winter mean temperature of around -1 C would be very conducive to regular study and thinking of “out of this world” concepts to “Save the Planet” in the comfort of a major Falkland’s West Island Climate Institute.

    A few billion dollars could probably be all that would be needed to set up such a major international Saving the Planet / Climate Change Catastrophe avoiding Institute in the Falklands.

    With Trump in power, the Americans might even be disposed to finance the entire Institute on their own as well as contribute the by far greatest bulk of climate scientists to help man and staff such an International Institute.
    Trump might even consider building a hockey rink if Mann was to take up residence in such a Falklands climate Institute.

    The only remaining problem being to convince the Saving the Planet / Climate change catastrophe scientists / climate modellers to shift to the West Falkland Island Climate Institute.

    That might require an international treaty similar to the setting up of the IPCC under the UN’s banner organisation on climate , the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change , the UNFCCC.

    The international agreement would require that if any scientist wished to publish a paper or make a press comment he / she would have to do it through the West Falkland’s Climate Change Institute which would edit all such papers and comments before publication.

    Priority for publishing of Climate Change papers and research on Saving the Planet papers would be given only to those scientists resident in the West Falklands Institute.

    For cohesion in International efforts to Save the Planet and Climate Change Catastrophe research, Government funded grants and private fundings from any source to such Climate Change Alarmist science and Planet Saving research would have to be channelled through the West Falklands institute for an assessment on the relevance of the proposed research.
    [ No Banks in West Falklands ! No problems ! ]
    ——————-

    As I posted above, lets turn this deriding of Climate Change Alarmist science / Saving the Planet into something positive such as concentrating the world’s leading “Saving the Planet’ academic brain power in one location so that it can concentrate and consolidate its total academic intellect so that the world is no longer distracted by all sorts of odd ball comments on saving the planet emanating from all sorts of weird Fairies at the bottom of the garden low level intellects of very dubious and questionable IQ levels.

    Oh! a final point!
    Once the academic Saving the Planet scientists and the Climate change catastrophe scientists and the Climate modellers with their Antaris in hand are all concentrated in the Falklands, to ensure they remain at the task in hand and are not distracted from their task by the lure of outside worldy pleasures, immediately take their passports and visas from them and only issue passports and visas that categorise them as Falkland residents who can no longer be accepted back into the normality of the Global Lands and Nations where the sense and normality of the intellect of the populace is a given, unlike the somewhat warped and twisted intellect s of most of the resident West Falkland Island Planet Savers and the Climate Change Catastrophe scientists and their grovellers and supplicants .
    .

    I think I’ll go and have a cup of tea or coffee after all of that !

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    TimiBoy

    Seriously? World War 3 is overdue. People have had it too good for too long.

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      ROM

      Be very careful what you wish for!

      You [ and the rest of the world ] just might get your wish!

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      sophocles

      Look at the influx of refugees into Europe over the last four years. Europe is a tinderbox and could erupt into flames at any time.

      If it cools any more than it already has, the wheat harvest will suffer. The present cold across Europe is already affecting the harvest. Watch prices rise. Beyond a fairly low threshold, the Middle East will ignite and burn. Again.

      The world is skating on very thin ice at present.

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    gowest

    So this is why we are having such a wonderfully cool summer in Perth this year! I haven’t watered the lawn once and its growing again.

    The Antarctic ice must have extended past that magic tipping point that ensures the cold fronts cross the coast instead of being pushed south of the bight.

    As for the cyclone/monsoon rain – why is WA (still) not prepared for floods? … and why cant our water wizards catch it – or is cutting shower time the best they can do?

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      ROM

      The “water wizards” , the engineers could without doubt catch any amount of water and supply it where it is needed.

      All they need is a few rational politicians with some on ground engineering experience to back them instead of a bunch of totally inept and sanctimonious ex-lawyers, ex-union thugs and shoe sized IQ level greens to tell them what they are not allowed to do and how they are not allowed to do it.

      The politicians are so damn busy trying to figure out whose knife it is that is sticking in whose back and which back they should plunge the next knife into that they don’t have enough of their extremely constrained and limited brainpower left over to even be able to think somewhat rationally about supplying something as critical as sufficient water and power to their voters and constituents.

      SA for starters being a prime example.

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      john karajas

      Surely, gowest, you are aware of the prediction by Tim Flannery that Perth would become the first ghost city of the 21st century due to permanent drought and ever-increasing Global Warming. Our beloved Water Corporation probably haven’t forgotten these wonderfully wise words of the great Flannery and are planning Perth’s water future accordingly. Rest assured, we can go bed of a night and sleep soundly now as we are being looked after by truly brilliant, er, (better not say it).

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    pat

    Penberthy is in charge of news.com.au CAGW-infested website, so no surprise how he frames the following.
    piece is illustrated by glam pic of wind turbines & the standard pic of chimney smoking coal plant.

    Penberthy’s analysis sounds mighty close to that of the “rabid” right he insults as anti-science etc:

    18 Feb: Adelaide Advertiser: David Penberthy: Australia faces a powergeddon unless loony Left and rabid Right stop finger-pointing and come up with energy crisis answers
    The crazier lefties don’t care how expensive or unreliable power is, because such trifling issues are trumped by the importance of protecting mother Earth. They refuse to concede that any failure of the power supply is ever the fault of renewables.
    The more rabid right-wingers are just as bad, fuelled by a total disregard for science, thinking they somehow know more than the CSIRO about global warming, and taking perverse delight in the crisis in SA as proof positive that renewable energy simply does not work…

    It seems to be impossible to be critical of renewables without being branded a planet-hating vandal, but I’ll have another go anyway. I have absolutely no doubt that renewables are the future solution to our energy needs. They have to be, or the planet is stuffed.
    The question is whether they are the present solution to our energy needs. Wednesday’s AEMO report shows that they are not. If the wind had been blowing – or, more importantly, if battery technology was sufficiently advanced so that all that wind power generated when it was actually windy could have been stored for later use – none of the dramas the other day would have happened.
    The absolute starting point of the load-shedding dramas was the fact that the wind died. To borrow a line from green advocate and former US Vice-President Al Gore, that’s an inconvenient truth for those on the Labor-Greens camp who insist that renewables are being fitted up as the problem here…

    If renewable energy is not yet sophisticated enough to keep the lights on, logic (or the desire to keep existing) would suggest that you have to keep less environmentally palatable options on the table. At the very least it should mean that gas stations such as SA’s Pelican Point should be running all the time, not as a clunky back-up which takes four hours to come on line.
    But beyond that, if it means the you need to keep using coal for a bit longer than is environmentally desirable, so be it. I know plenty if people in SA right now who are so sick of all this crap that they’d happily cop a brown coal power station on the hill at the Adelaide Oval, if it meant their business wasn’t going to go under…

    Forget the polls as they currently stand. Former Labor heavyweight and political commentator Graham Richardson is right – this issue could cost Bill Shorten the chance of winning the next election, especially given the recent memory of its carbon tax fib, not to mention its current inability to explain how a so-called Emissions Intensity Scheme would make any difference…
    http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/opinion/david-penberthy-australia-faces-a-powergeddon-unless-loony-left-and-rabid-right-stop-fingerpointing-and-come-up-with-energy-crisis-answers/news-story/8f4988c22f911731ad2de6511baaab03

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    toorightmate

    This is way off topic, BUT……..
    There is a chance that Brisbane might get a thunderstorm this afternoon (19/02). It frequently happens during December, January and February.
    The current Newscorp headline tells me that “EXTREME WEATHER IS ON THE WAY”.
    I think Newscorp (and others) would adore the story about conserving Arctic ice with an ice machine.
    Why not go a step further and employ the ice machine in the Bahamas? Then our planet can boast three ice caps.

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    • #
      Dennis

      Extremely fake news?

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      toorightmate

      I have to take my hat off to the folk at BoM.
      Gale force winds at 5kph, gusting to 10kph.
      The deluge after 4 hours is 8mm.

      They are having the same success with cyclone predictions.
      They predicted 10 for this summer.
      The score so far is 1.

      All this extreme weather is just too much!

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    TdeF

    After the ice age where most of the Northern Hemisphere above 40 degrees was under ice, often km thick, we miss it so much that the proposal is to make our own ice?

    Far better to tow the record excess ice from Antarctica. Cheaper. Thousands of boats towing icebergs to create a polar bear sanctuary, even though those cute little vegetarians are in record numbers.

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    Geoffrey Williams

    I have just seen the same story on the WUWT site;
    It has an illustration of a helicopter de-icing the impellers on one of the ‘artic ice wind pumps’.
    Absolutely priceless!
    GeoffW

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    Geoffrey Williams

    OK guys before the day is over who can come up with some more outrageous ideas to save the planet?
    Go on make us laugh some more!!
    GeoffW

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      Dennis

      Build a rocket or rockets large enough to carry Green volunteers to a new imaginary planet that supports life and needs saving?

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      Brett

      Since soot is a big problem, we could make snow ploughs (powered by solar, of couse), that move around collecting the snow, wash it, refreeze it and respread it. where’s my grant money?
      How about snow bleaching, works with coral.
      Do coloured snow cones melt faster than plain snow cones?

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    • #

      Outrageous!

      Hmm, I dunno, how about this then.

      Satellite Solar Power with an inflatable photovoltaic gossamer structure with concentrator lenses or solar heat engines to convert sunlight into electricity in either sun-synchronous orbit or geosynchronous orbit. The unit can either be constructed in Space or preferably constructed on the Lunar surface from materials available on the Moon, and then launched from there, as the escape velocity is less there. Once constructed and in place in orbit, and working, the collected solar power is converted to electricity at the satellite, and this will then converted again to the transmission medium, to be beamed back to the Earth’s surface via either microwave or laser technology. The surface plant will collect either transmission from orbit, and then convert it back to electricity. It might even be able to be scaled up to GigaWatt proportions, so, around the same Nameplate as one unit at a HELE coal fired plant. The minor drawback of the energy losses during several phases of conversion from photon to electron to photon back to electron is hoped to be overcome.

      Outrageous enough for you?

      Nup!

      That’s the plan.

      Tony.

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    • #
      gowest

      My Favorite is a Canal from the Bight to Lake Eyre – Let the sea in and eventually create two continents – East and West Australia. Imagine the Condo’s!

      20

    • #
      gowest

      Dont forget the Space elevator

      20

      • #
        ROM

        1 / The giant underwater turbines that would tap all the free energy in the immense 100 km wide by 1000 metres deep Gulf Stream which runs at a rate of 4 knots up the east coast of the USA.

        2 / The thermo deep water pipes that would turn ammonia into a gas to drive the turbines and then the very cold deep water welling up the pipes would recool the gas and the cycle would repeat.
        Tried ; worked as far as a small amount of deep water exiting the pipes and then marine biology reckoned it had found a brand new home and niche to exploit and went for it.

        How It Works: Building a Kilometer-Long Pipe Deep Under the Sea

        3 / Wave power that sorta works for a bit then falls apart literally as the ocean does its usual thing on lotsa bits items mankind insists of dropping into the aforesaid ocean ;

        Einstein’s classic case of the definition of stupidity; Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; [ actually accomplished by Tom Karl's computer program whilst working on the NOAA's global temperature data [ sarc/ ]]

        4 / Perpetual motion / Free energy machines;
        I tried to find the number of patents given on perpetual motion / free energy machines but can’t find any sort of reputable source except that the numbers run into thousands of patents with most patent offices now refusing to give patents on such machines.
        The first known drawings of a claim for a perpetual motion machine was by the Indian author Bhaskara (c. 1159), so after some 850 years we are still waiting for a working commercial model or just a working model of a perpetual motion / free energy machine.
        [ Lecture by Eric Prebys of Fermilab ]

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        toorightmate

        Which cam be erected using sky hooks.

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      FarmerDoug2

      I suggest we build big sails shaped like fans to catch the wind and turn generators. Oh hang on they tried them a few centuries ago to mill grain. Called them windmills. Wonder why they stopped using them?
      Doug

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    Nick Werner

    I haven’t seen anyone else say it yet: Ice Follies.

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    Lindsay

    I wonder if I proposed taking coals to Newcastle could I swing a research grant at some university?

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    Bulldust

    O/topic … Not sure how many are following the battle, but I think it is a huge issue. YouTuber PewDiePie (pronounced Pew dee pie) is battling the corrupt MSM much like Trump.

    I think one my proudest predictions about the internet was in the mid nineties when I said it would be a tremendous force democratic freedoms. Bear in mind the net was text only with no web worth speaking of. I had no idea how it would come about, but had a profound sense that it was obviously true. Now here we are and it is unfolding quite fantastically before us.

    Back to Trump and PewDieGate … Sargon of Akkad just released what I think is one of his best pieces of analysis in the following clip:

    https://youtu.be/V1ulkykn7jc

    It explains quite clearly what many of us intuitively recognise. The MSM is corrupt and it is dying. It is now lashing out at populists like PewDiePie and Trump because they call out the MSM. Also, these populists threaten their news hegemony and powerbase. Heck, PewDiePie was pretty much apolitical from all accounts, but I guess the WSJ just couldn’t let someone with ten times their online audience carry on gaining influence, harmless though it was.

    You are witnessing the death of the MSM. The new influencers are online, and my personal preference is towards those that are moral, fact-based and present rational arguments. Many of them only have a couple hundred thousand subscribers, but their content speaks truth to power and is very compelling. Interesting times.

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    Ian Hill

    When I clicked on the first link it was not about these water pumps at all?

    Just me?

    Also, I understand there is a university in Arizona which doesn’t have a campus – it just exists on-line.

    Back to the pumps, at 10 million of them they’d need a hundred thousand construction and maintenance crews assuming each crew can take care of 100 pumps. Duh!

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      Bulldust

      Just curious how an online University with no campus is thought to exist in Arizona. Are the servers there? The professors? Perhaps funded by the state?

      ASU is very real BTW. Huge campus in Tempe, which is a suburb of Phoenix.

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        Ian Hill

        I’ll have to check with my son tomorrow. We were in Arizona in April last year and attended some sporting events in Phoenix. While there we heard of an unusual university sports team without a campus and facilities. I’ll get back to you on this Bulldust.

        I ran the Boston Marathon while over there. The BAA is as green as they come. Still, had a good time and a passable run.

        Getting O/T a bit, but my son and I just saw the movie Patriot’s Day, about the 2013 Boston Marathon bombings. Worth seeing.

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        Ian Hill

        My son confirmed there is an on-line university in Arizona with a football team even though there is no campus. There is a ground they play on though. We can’t recall the name of the university.

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      Say, Bulldust, could ‘The Producers’ be made today?
      Laughter’s the best corrective.

      H/t Voltaire, Mark Twain, Brother William of Baskerville
      in ‘Name of the Rose, Zero Mostel et al, ( NOT Big Al.)
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPXHRX8Q2hs

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      Ian Hill

      It’s all right. It’s the third link. Senior moment!

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    Yonniestone

    OT link down here for an update on the Oroville Dam situation, this is a very interesting link where latest dam inflow/outflow, weather maps and river flow/levels are explained, also noted is the commentary of a quiet sun and a future cooling trend.

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    J.H.

    They gotta be takin’ the piss…. That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen proposed by adults.

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      AndyG55

      “proposed by adults”

      Adults???

      WHERE?????

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      dennisambler

      Crazy schemes like this go back to the 19th century, to melt the ice in the Arctic! Proposed again in the 60′s and 70′s when there was a previous “pause”.

      http://gizmodo.com/5680669/thawing-the-arctic—soviet-russias-cold-war-war-on-cold

      In 1912 Carroll Livingston Riker, an engineer, inventor, and industrialist, proposed a scheme to change the climate of polar regions by tinkering with the ocean currents of the Atlantic. This was to be accomplished by preventing the cold Labrador Current from colliding with the Gulf Stream. To do this, he proposed building a 200-mile causeway extending east from Cape Race off the coast of Newfoundland.

      In 1957 Soviet academician Borisov, alluding to the centuries-old quest of the Russian people to overcome the Northland cold, proposed building a dam across the Bering Strait to melt the Arctic sea ice. In numerous articles and then again in his book Can Man Change the Climate? (1973), Borisov detailed his vision of a dam 50 miles long and almost 200 feet high with shipping locks and pumping stations. He proposed that the dam be built in 820-foot sections made of prefabricated freeze-resistance ferroconcrete that could be floated to the construction site and anchored to the sea bottom with pilings.

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    pat

    18 Feb: NY Post: Paul Sperry: Obama-linked activists have a ‘training manual’ for protesting Trump
    An Obama-tied activist group training tens of thousands of agitators to protest President Trump’s policies plans to hit Republican lawmakers supporting those policies even harder this week, when they return home for the congressional recess and hold town hall meetings and other functions…
    The manual, published with OFA partner “Indivisible,” advises protesters to go into halls quietly so as not to raise alarms, and “grab seats at the front of the room but do not all sit together.” Rather, spread out in pairs to make it seem like the whole room opposes the Republican host’s positions. “This will help reinforce the impression of broad consensus.” It also urges them to ask “hostile” questions — while keeping “a firm hold on the mic” — and loudly boo the the GOP politician if he isn’t “giving you real answers.”…

    After protesters gave MSNBC, CNN and the networks footage of their dust-up with Chaffetz, for example, ***the outlets ran them continuously, forcing Chaffetz to issue statements defending himself…
    As The Post reported, OFA boasts more than 250 offices nationwide and more than 32,000 organizers, with another 25,000 actively under training…

    Chicago socialist Saul Alinsky, known by the left as “the father of community organizing,” taught radicals to “rub raw the sores of discontent” and create the conditions for a “revolution.” He dedicated his book, “Rules for Radicals,” to “Lucifer.” Michelle Obama quoted from the book when she helped launch OFA in 2013…
    And last year, after Trump’s upset victory, he personally rallied OFA troops to “protect” his legacy in a conference call. “Now is the time for some organizing,” he said. “So don’t mope” over the election results.
    He promised OFA activists he would soon join them in the fray.

    “Understand that I’m going to be constrained in what I do with all of you until I am again a private citizen, but that’s not so far off,” he said. “You’re going to see me early next year, and we’re going to be in a position where we can start cooking up all kinds of great stuff.”…
    “I promise you that next year Michelle and I are going to be right there with you, and the clouds are going to start parting, and we’re going to be busy. I’ve got all kinds of thoughts and ideas about it, but this isn’t the best time to share them.
    “Point is, I’m still fired up and ready to go, and I hope that all of you are, as well.”
    http://nypost.com/2017/02/18/obama-linked-activists-have-a-training-manual-for-protesting-trump/

    18 Feb: ZeroHedge: Tyler Durden: Jay Sekulow: Obama Should Be “Held Accountable” For The “Soft Coup” Against Trump
    One month ago, the NYT reported that “In its final days, the Obama administration expanded the power of the National Security Agency to share globally intercepted personal communications with the government’s 16 other intelligence agencies before applying privacy protections.” …
    According to civil right expert and prominent First Amendement Supreme Court lawyer, Jay Sekulow, what the agencies did by leaking the Trump Administration information was not only illegal but “almost becomes a soft coup”, one which was spurred by the last minute rule-change by Obama, who intentionally made it far easier for leaks to propagate, and next to impossible to catch those responsible for the leaks.
    This is his explanation:…READ ON
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-02-18/jay-sekulow-obama-should-be-held-accountable-soft-coup-attempt-against-trump

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    pat

    18 Feb: ConservativeTreehouse: sundance: Jaw-Dropping, Massive “Miles Long” Crowd of Thousands For President Trump Melbourne FL Rally…
    …”Oh My, There are Deplorables As Far As The Eye Can See”…
    The crowd began as early as 5am this morning, and the line was building throughout the day. At approximately 1:00pm the massive line is well over 3 miles long and consists of thousands upon thousands of Trump Supporters. The event starts at 5:00pm
    HOLY CATS !! The line of people is so long, it is now actually “lapping” around (meaning completely encircling ) the entire airport property boundary. It’s insane !
    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2017/02/18/jaw-dropping-massive-miles-long-crowd-of-thousands-for-president-trump-melbourne-fl-rally/

    The crowd at the Trump rally (plus there was an overflow crowd that couldn’t get in)
    https://i.redd.it/hllj65gwipgy.jpg

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    pat

    18 Feb: Breitbart: Jeff Poor: Trump Replays Campaign Promises, Slams ‘Dishonest Media’ at Florida Rally
    VIDEO: Watch: Rallygoers jeer media with chants of “tell the truth”
    4,507 COMMENTS AT TIME OF POSTING
    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/02/18/trump-replays-campaign-promises-slams-dishonest-media-at-florida-rally/

    watched a video of the Trump motorcade moving through Florida streets during the week, and the sidewalks(lol) were packed with thousands of excited people taking pics, jumping up and down, etc but there wasn’t a mention in the MSM.

    just noting the number of comments:

    18 Feb: Breitbart TV: Melania Trump: No Matter What the Opposition Is Saying, I Will Act in the Best Interest of All of You
    3,754 COMMENTS AT TIME OF POSTING

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    pat

    the disgusting FakeNewsMSM:

    Back on the campaign trail already, Trump touts promises kept
    Reuters – ‎5 hours ago‎

    Trump Returns to Campaign Trail After a Month in Office
    New York Times – ‎6 hours ago‎
    MELBOURNE, Fla. — Never let it be said that President Trump waits until the last minute. With just 1,354 days until the next presidential election, Mr. Trump kicked off his re-election campaign here on Saturday with a boisterous, sign-waving, slogan…

    Trump gets what he wants in Florida: Campaign-level adulation
    CNN – ‎8 hours ago‎

    President Trump Held a Re-Election Rally After Just a Month on the Job
    TIME – ‎7 hours ago‎

    Fact-checking President Donald Trump’s Florida rally
    PolitiFact – ‎10 hours ago‎

    OOPS …. OBAMA HAD HIS FIRST RALLY MUCH EARLIER!

    9 Feb 2009: CNN: Obama takes stimulus package on the road
    Hoping to garner support, President Obama takes a campaign-style trip to Elkhart, Ind., to hold a town hall meeting.
    The trip is Obama’s first major face-to-face meeting with a group of ordinary Americans outside of Washington since taking office January 20th…

    9 Feb 2009: President Obama no stranger to Elkhart – CNN Political Ticker
    Obama returned to Elkhart and held a rally in the northern Indiana …

    1,700 SHOWED UP FOR OBAMA (THO ABC COULD BE EXAGGERATING!):

    9 Feb 2009: ABC America: Selling the Stimulus in Elkhart, Ind.
    “The situation we face could not be more serious,” the president told a crowd of 1,700 packed into Concord Community High School’s gymnasium.

    18 Feb: NY Post: Salena Zito: Why Trump’s Florida rally was the right move at the right time
    Critics said his decision to hold the event at a Melbourne airport hangar was unprecedented, bizarre and ridiculous, a 2020 campaign that is ludicrously early, given it’s 1,354 days till the next election.
    Yet Trump’s speeches across the country energize him and his supporters — and that is likely a very good thing, for his team and for the success of the nation…
    Saturday’s rally was not exactly unprecedented for a president. On Feb. 09, 2009, less than three weeks into his presidency, Barack Obama visited Elkhart, Ind., to promote his controversial stimulus plan at a rally that had all of the hallmarks of a campaign event; there was a campaign-style speech, questions from the audience, and plenty of adoration from attendees.
    Bill Clinton and George W. Bush both held campaign-style events in the early weeks of their presidencies, too.
    In short, this is what presidents do, some more than others, to reconnect with the people who placed them in office…
    His voters are not in Washington, they’re not in New York City, and they’re not in LA. Trump gets his energy from them, and he needs to be seen out with them, talking to them, listening to them, interacting with them, and being energized by them. They are his true source of power…
    http://nypost.com/2017/02/18/why-trumps-florida-rally-was-the-right-move-at-the-right-time/

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    pat

    18 Feb: WashingtonExaminer: Trump: The Obama EPA was ‘clogging up the veins of our country’, Pruitt will fix that
    by Daniel Chaitin
    Taking aim at the EPA under President Obama, Trump suggested that Pruitt will work to undue many of the Obama-era environmental regulations that made it “impossible to navigate for companies” and promised that jobs would soon return to the U.S.
    “It’s going to be a big difference, Trump said, “because, they were clogging up the veins of our country with the environmental impact statements, and all of the rules and regulations.”…
    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/trump-the-obama-epa-was-clogging-up-the-veins-of-our-country-pruitt-will-fix-that/article/2615261

    19 Feb: Newsweek: Campaigner-in-Chief: Trump Rallies Supporters in Florida
    The president delivered a greatest hits set, boasting of policy goals and repeating criticisms of the judiciary, Democrats and the press.
    By Nicholas Loffredo
    President Donald Trump escaped the political confines of Washington, D.C. for the more friendly environs of Melbourne, Fla. on Saturday, where he held a rally before a boisterous crowd at an airport plane hangar and promised “change for the ages.”…
    At turns boastful and mocking, Trump was in full campaign mode, whipping the crowd into a frenzy over being part of a “movement that is sweeping the country” as he reiterated his policy goals on national security, trade, international relations, infrastructure, taxes and more…

    Trump praised the confirmation of EPA critic Scott Pruitt as head of the agency, likely fanning fears of environmentalists by pledging to “unfree all of those companies” that have allegedly been stymied by environmental regulations.
    “They were clogging up the veins of our country with the environmental impact statements,” he said. And with Pruitt and Trump in charge, “they can build what they want to build.”…

    Emphasizing his view that the press is an “opposition party,” he accused media of making up sources “in many cases” because they “don’t want to report the truth.”
    “They’ve become a big part of the problem,” Trump said. “They have their own agenda. And their agenda is not your agenda.”
    “We will continue to expose them for what they are,” he said. “We ’re not going to let the fake news tell us what to do.”…
    http://europe.newsweek.com/campaigner-chief-trump-rallies-supporters-florida-558409?rm=eu

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    el gordo

    To was recently estimated by the World Bank that universal access to basic drinking water would cost ”$14 billion a year until 2030 and yield benefits of $52 billion, or about $4 for every dollar spent, according to the preliminary findings that will form part of a wider review.’

    Obviously this is far better than refreezing salt water in the Arctic.

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    cedarhill

    For sane folks, these ideas are simply breathtaking in their presumption to squander resources that could be used for medical research, electrical generation in the third world, needed infrastructure and the list goes on and on.

    One suspects funds could be found to built a loony bin for those that live in the fantasyland of the alarmists.

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    Fredrik

    Ice floating on water has no effect on the water level, so it is stupid from that perspective too!

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    Mark D.

    What about the poor billions of low cell count sea life violently sucked up from their realm and spewed upon the surface to die a frozen death?

    Don’t their lives matter?

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    scotsmaninutah

    Trump’s reaction …

    It is unclear how the President of the US is going to react to this idea when he gets “wind” of it. But I suspect that the UA is going to be in for a shock of hemispheric proprotions when it comes to future fedral grants.

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    PeterS

    The fools don’t even realise that such an exercise could destabilise the climate possibly with devastating consequences. 100% pure insanity.

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    ‘Steady state’ floating ice thickness is determined by cooling from above and water temperature below. Artificially added thickness would reduce heat flow resulting in increased melting below. End result, the ice thickness would change little and none permanently. Given that they are spraying salt water, the ice might actually end up thinner.

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    dbeyat45

    Tim Flannery’s fingerprints are all over this idea.

    “Even the ice that forms won’t fill the Arctic”?

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    Gary

    The idiot that came up with this idea needs to do some background reading on the conservation of energy. If they make the arctic colder it follows that somewhere else gets hotter. If the idea is to take the energy out of the wind with windfarms then that energy will convert to heat in the atmosphere which will raise the temperature of the planet.

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    Forrest Gardener

    As the saying goes they could even sell the excess ice to the Eskimos.

    Now where are my plans for that perpetual motion machine?

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    ScotsmaninUtah

    Electonics in cold climates.

    If you have ever tried to operate electronic devices in sub zero temperatures it quickly becomes apparent that they do not like the cold.
    In avionic systems We often had to heat the devices prior to starting them up as their behavior was unpredictable or as in most cases the devices would simply not function.

    The expense of designing what is termed “industrial temperature” systems is very high and testing these systems is often very difficult.

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    Oliver K. Manuel

    Loss of sanity (contact with reality) was the greatest social cost from the decision by government agencies to hide key information from the public after the end of WWII:

    1. “NEUTRON REPULSION – POWERS BEYOND THE DREAMS OF SCIENTIFIC FICTION,” International Education & Research Journal 2, (8) 43-55 (2016):

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10640850/NeutronRepulsionb.pdf

    2. “NEUTRON REPULSION – SOCIAL COSTS FROM OVERLOOKING THIS POWER,” International Journal of Advanced Research 4 (8) 1633-1638 (2016) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10640850/Dawning_of_Truth.pdf

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    Bill Radcliffe

    With a slight doffing of cap to Einstein (mass and energy interchangeable), where in all this is the law of conservation of energy? The ice mass of the arctic or antarctic is merely a bad metric of the total amount of energy (say heat) on the planet.

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    Rob Scanlan

    Ever heard of the laws of conservation of energy? The uselessness of this project astounds me.

    00