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Dennis Jensen – the skeptic MP running as an independent and the Delcon dilemma

Two days to go. How to vote?

WA skeptics can make a difference here, but I have to deal with the DelCon dilemma too.

Dr Dennis Jensen is the most qualified science trained and outspoken skeptic in Parliament, and he’s running as an Independent on Saturday.  For Tangney voters, it’s a pointed dilemma. Jensen bravely spoke out as a skeptic in 2004, before almost anyone else. He also helped to toss out Turnbull in 2009. But then he bafflingly (to me) voted for Turnbull last year — undoing almost all the gains skeptics had made in the last 10 years. I wrote to him pointing out how far backwards we have gone: “We are now so much worse off than we were in 2010 or 2013. We don’t even have a major party in opposition offering us a skeptical alternative and we won’t get one as long as Turnbull is PM. In 2013 Tony Abbott won on a blood oath to get rid of a carbon tax that Australians overwhelmingly wanted. Despite that, a carbon tax starts in 3 days. We skeptics haven’t forgotten that you spoke out for skeptics when no one else did, but neither can we ignore a decision that set us back ten years.”

Dennis Jensen is in a safe Liberal seat with a big margin — his seat was not threatened — so his choice was not about self preservation. Since the Turnbull vote, he has lost pre-selection and is running as an Independent. Churlishly, incredibly cynically, the Liberal Party are preferencing the Labor candidate over him (the Labor Party has returned that favour). UPDATE: This was not so. Jensen was #2 on the Liberal ticket, as would seem fair. (I’ll try to find out what happened. When I spoke to Jensen on Wednesday he had been told the preferences were not that way.)  So the establishment closes ranks and Jensen is too big a threat. I asked Dennis if he regretted supporting Turnbull and his reply was that it was an “agonizing” choice and Turnbull has been a major disappointment — but at the time he sincerely felt that Shorten would win if he didn’t. Plus Turnbull had agreed to keep the same climate policy and the plebiscite on gay marriage. (I guess Jensen, like most people, was unaware that the Abbott plan contained the subclause to bring in a carbon tax through CapNTrade.)

It’s the Delcon dilemma, and I would have picked the other way. I believe Abbott would have won this election – despite the long-running poor polls. The whole campaign has been about bread and circuses, distractions, fake scares, non-issues and fantasy-distant scenarios. If Abbott just reminded everyone about the boats, the carbon tax, the pink batts, and the monster debt, the public would have still picked the incumbents. But Dennis was there at the coal-face, and he saw things differently.

If he is to take on the establishment, grassroots support at the polling booths will make a big difference. So, if you are near the seat of Tangney (southern Perth) I know Dennis will be grateful. For the Delcons, it’s a question of thinking forwards: whether you think he would make a better MP than the establishment candidates.

Due to Jensen being the longest running and most outspoken skeptic in Parliament, and not in a major Party, David and I will head down and help out on Saturday. If you feel strongly about this election, and about the Senate too, you can share your thoughts with scores of voters at an influential moment. Dennis is outside the party machine now and is a better representative for science in the House than anyone else. People who want to help on the day can phone Reece at Denis’ office on 9354 9633.

Jensen is good on policy, but maybe not so strong at networking. If you think that numbers-guys and science trained thinkers ought be in Parliament rather than smooth talking networkers then those type of people need support.

Here is his reply, below.

Jo

Guest post Dr Dennis Jensen M.P.

Hi Jo

The decision I made that night of the leadership coup is one that I will replay in my mind for the rest of my life. I cannot really say what the ideal action would have been; I really don’t think there was one. I made a very narrow judgement call that many will judge me on. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that the conservative cause in Australia is more important than any individual.

I hope that this explains why I took the actions I did, even if some will forever condemn me for them. They were not easy, and I really do not know whether I made the right decision.

I have to say that I am really pleased to be out of the Liberal Party. I can now focus on the job, rather than focus on the Liberal Party, and massage overinflated egos. The Liberal Party grassroots members are some of the best people you can hope to meet, but those pushing and manoeuvring for office bearing positions are some of the worst. I am just glad to be out of it, and all the Machiavellian games, so I can focus on constituents and policy, unconstrained by party dictate.

First, it is important to note that I am philosophically far more aligned with Tony Abbott than Malcolm Turnbull. It is also important to note that I was central to Tony Abbott wresting the leadership in 2009 from Turnbull over the issue of the ETS.

Fast forward to late 2014. I texted Tony Abbott of my concerns regarding his leadership (I had also spoken with him about this). Unfortunately, nothing seemed to change. His office was an echo chamber, designed to keep MPs away from Tony. The office was effectively a closed shop. After my expression of concern, including the lack of strategic direction and so on, nothing changed. It was business as usual, mistake after mistake being made as the decisions were being made by very few people, no reality check and no devil’s advocate. Then there was the “Sir Prince Phillip” issue, and I decided to fire a shot across the bows, by publicly stating that he had lost my support in early February last year. What eventuated was a spill motion that failed. Too his credit, at that stage, Abbott opened up a lot more, and things started to improve. I was very pleased with this.

Unfortunately, sometimes people cannot adapt, and fall back to familiar ways, and this occurred with Abbott, and by the middle of the year things had fundamentally returned to the way they were. I sensed a hardening of the sentiment about Abbott in the community at that stage (in February, after the spill, I had sensed that people were prepared to give him a second chance). This process, in my view, became absolutely rock solid when the Choppergate issue occurred, and Abbott did nothing about it for way too long. I had staunch conservatives in the electorate and in the Liberal Party state council telling me that Abbott had to go, including the Tangney Divisional president Phil Turtle.

Thus, when the actual spill occurred (I was not an active participant), and Turnbull was the only candidate, I was stuck with a really hard choice. My partner Trudy could verify that I phoned her the evening of the spill, agonising over which way to go. In the end, my view was that if Abbott were to contest an election against Shorten, Shorten would win.  Thus I believed that the only option to prevent Shorten becoming PM was installing Turnbull as the leader, as there were no conservatives who had nominated for the leadership. I thought that we would have to force Turnbull to accept and sign on to two things:

1)      No change in climate policy

2)      A referendum on gay marriage

I ended up voting for Turnbull because he signed onto those two points. He has been a huge disappointment, with no strategic vision and worse, no action on anything! I did not feel comfortable with the decision to install him, and was caught between a rock and a hard place. I still firmly believe that the electorate’s view of Abbott had solidified, and that he would have lost the election. It is faint recompense that Turnbull will probably win, as his government is effectively a policy-free zone. Possibly I should just have supported Abbott, electoral consequences be damned. All very well in hindsight, and even then, a tough call considering the alternative.

Tony and I still have respect for each other. Indeed, a few weeks ago he said I was a good solid member, and a couple of months ago texted me that I was a good man.

At present, I am campaigning as an Independent, unsupported by a massive Party machine. As such, things are tough, and if anyone is able to assist on Saturday handing out How To Vote Cards, I would greatly appreciate it.

Kind regards

Dennis

Dennis Jensen Federal Member for Tangney

News and Media

Dr Dennis Jensen calls to set science free

History tells us climate science is not settled

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Dennis Jensen - the skeptic MP running as an independent and the Delcon dilemma, 8.4 out of 10 based on 49 ratings

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214 comments to Dennis Jensen – the skeptic MP running as an independent and the Delcon dilemma

  • #

    I volunteered a long time ago but had my time consumed more recently on #EUref. Until the weekend. (Most recently on hosting a lurgy, but I’m almost rid of the uninvited inhabitant.)

    In providing (independent, voluntary) online support for #leave, I sometimes placed “Farage-is-the-spawn-of-Satan” #remain-ers in a “dilemma”: Vote to #leave and put Farage out of a job, or; vote to #remain and suffer his presence indefinitely. :-)

    Can’t imagine that Dennis’ choice was any easier. It would have been had he been an independent; but then he would not have had that choice to make.

    60

    • #
      Ted O'Brien.

      Just don’t yell: “YACCABOO” and you might pull through.

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      Rereke Whakaaro

      Vote to #leave and put Farage out of a job, or; vote to #remain and suffer his presence indefinitely.

      That is beautiful, Bernd. I tip my hat to you.

      30

  • #
    TdeF

    Dennis can answer this. Do I have my facts right?

    As I understand it, Dennis was kept in the job in a very desirable safe Liberal seat at the last preselection only by Tony Abbott’s explicit intervention and while he may have felt at the time the 2016 election was far more important than any individual and loyalty and winning was everything, it is not how Abbott behaved towards him. The decision Dennis took has now cost Abbott his job and Jensen his job and most importantly, he did not keep faith with the man who intervened to save him. He lost preselection 57-7, a landslide.

    Some seven of those who betrayed Abbott have lost their jobs. Some like Jensen were in their jobs only because of Abbott, including Speaker Bronwyn Bishop and Foreign Minister Julie Bishop in particular and of course Turnbull as Communications Minister. The betrayal seemed in every case motivated solely by self interest with no sign of loyalty. Since then much loyalty has Turnbull shown towards these people at preselection? None. What has Turnbull done? Nothing. In fact Abbott would not even be in parliament now if Turnbull had his way but serious attempts to remove him at preselection failed.

    So why should anyone show loyalty to Dennis Jensen? He showed none and now wants sympathy and support? There are plenty of examples of his serious lack of good judgement in public matters, none of which have anything to do with Science. Many people would be understandably skeptical.

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      scaper...

      Yep. I know a few MPs who voted for Turnbull. I’ve turned my back on them. I never give a traitor forgiveness.

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      Dennis

      No, that is not true. Abbott was not leader at my last preselection hassle in 2009. He didn’t intervene. This is a straw man created somewhere. In fact around that time it was the reverse, I was central to Abbott acing Turnbull

      30

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    scaper...

    No change on climate policy??? But, but, but…global warming does not exist. Gee, seems Jensen is okay with Direct Action.

    Funny that.

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      scaper...

      I’m backing Malcolm Roberts in the Senate. He’s got conviction…not a carpet bagger!

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      • #
        el gordo

        The reality is that Peta kept him out of Abbott’s office and Turnbull convinced Jensen that he would be more inclusive as PM.

        In hindsight he should have stuck with Abbott, but it would have made no difference in the long run, Jensen would have been dumped.

        Dr Jensen was not happy with Direct Action but he is only one person and could say nought. As an independent he won’t have to kowtow to anyone and would be a formidable opponent.

        ‘He’s got conviction…not a carpet bagger!’

        Malcolm Roberts is John Howard’s old press secretary and believes CO2 causes global warming, yesterday’s man.

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      • #
        Rereke Whakaaro

        He’s got conviction…

        I didn’t know that was still mandatory in Australia?

        40

  • #
    ianl8888

    He (Turnbull) has been a huge disappointment, with no strategic vision and worse, no action on anything

    No action on anything ? Not true!

    He’s beaten up on older people – superannuation, pathology, aged care

    Whether you agree with those changes or not, Waffle had no mandate for them. He should have put them up as policy changes for the next term. In fact, only a few months before he hacked superannuation, his Treasurer, Morrison, repeated the same super mantra that Rudd, Gillard and then Abbott purported to believe: “No changes in this term of Govt”. In fact, every politician trying to get elected has said that for over 10 years (since 2006), and every new Govt has deliberately reneged and hacked away.

    Having said that, I appreciate the effort you put into exposing the weakness of AGW hypotheses and the vilification you’ve received for it. However, you have enough experience to know that if the MSM decide on something, it is very difficult indeed to convince the general population that they are being dudded – tring to just like inviting Don Quixote to present his face for punching.

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  • #
    Egor TheOne

    Vote One ‘the Dennis’!

    We need all the sceptics (realists), we can get, especially such highly qualified as Dennis Jensen.

    Yes, he did vote against Abbott, and I for one would have Abbott back in a heartbeat, even though Abbott did do a few things to shoot himself in the foot, but regardless Jensen is still well worth support.

    It appears to me that Dennis has been discarded by the Turnbull faction for his anti true b’lverism of the new CAGW/CACC religion, when it would have been easy for him just to tow the party line.

    I will still vote for Turnbull as he is the lesser of the 2 evils despite him being a ‘Pretend True B’lver’ (as in, it suits his purpose to be outwardly a Climate Changling)

    Carbon Bill and the ALP/Greens rabble cannot be allowed to govern, or I fear that our country may be lost for the foreseeable future to the likes of ultimate UN Marxist/Totalitarian control.

    Dr. Dennis Jensen is a scientist with political knowledge and experience… a rare and valuable combination that is probably the best to combat the scientific illiteracy flooding the political world where the CAGW religion is running rampant!

    Jensen should not be allowed to languish in political obscurity.

    Just the fact that the ‘Turnbull faction’ wants him gone should be reason enough for us to support him.
    He obviously would not goose step with the rest of them .

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      scaper...

      The Turnbull Faction? His branch wanted him gone in 2010. Nothing to do with Turnbull. I wonder why his branch wanted to dis-endorse him?

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        el gordo

        More importantly why did John Howard and the state executive go out of their way to save him in 2010?

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        • #
          delcon2

          “Little Johnny Howard”is a “Closet Lefty”That is why we have had “Land Clearing” and “Gun control laws forced upon us,at the behest of the UN.
          We should do what the USA are planning on doing.
          Rep.Mike Rogers from Alabama,pointed to a wide range of reasons why the U.S. should dump the UN. “Although the United States makes up almost a quarter of the U.N.’s annual budget, the U.N. has attempted a number of actions that attack our rights as U.S. citizens,” he explained. “To name a few, these initiatives include actions like the Law of the Sea Treaty, which would subject our country to internationally-based environmental mandates, costing American businesses more money, or the U.N.’s work to re-establish an international regulation regime on global warming which would heavily target our fossil fuels.”

          Indeed, especially in recent years, the UN has become increasingly brazen in attacking the rights of Americans, and even the U.S. Constitution that enshrines those unalienable rights. From attacks on free speech and gun rights to assaults on America’s federalist system of government and states’ rights, the UN and its member regimes have become increasingly aggressive. Now, the UN is working on a series of major schemes that would undermine even the principles upon which the United States was founded, much of it under the guise of promoting pseudo-human rights and pseudo-environmentalism.

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          • #
            el gordo

            Call me a lefty, gun control is a good idea and the only way Americans will ever escape mass shootings is to crush the gun lobby.

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            • #
              Another Ian

              Show me where gun control has actually made a difference to those with crime intent? Just made access a bit more expensive.

              20

              • #
                Glen Michel

                Well, just complied with regulations and all that and I have my .22 magnum in order to keep feral pudditats in check.What a palaver! Everyone is a potential criminal under this.Still,I feel I’ve accomplished something I feel.

                20

    • #
      AndyG55

      “Dr. Dennis Jensen is a scientist with political knowledge and experience…”

      But unfortunately, a rather bad judge of human character.

      110

  • #
    handjive

    Meanwhile, in NSW …

    NSW families brace for electricity price shock

    “FAMILIES across the state can expect to be slugged more than $200 extra on their yearly household electricity bill, the biggest price rise in three years.

    And it could just be a taste of what’s to come, with continuing legal battles threatening to send bills “skyrocketing” in another 12 months’ time.”
    . . .
    Thanks to all Australia’s politicians.

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    • #

      I want to show you a very cunning thing they have done here in Queensland with the supply of electricity, and it may even be similar in other States.

      There has always been complaints about the cost of electricity, with the continual raising of the unit cost.

      That unit cost is now around 26 cents per KWH.

      Considering that large scale coal fired power can sell their power to the providers (retailers) at around 35/35/KWH, which translates to 3/3.5 cents per KWH, you can see that everybody has their hand out to take a slice of that electrical pie, a mark up by a factor of 8 or 9, around 12% of the price paid by consumers.

      So, what they went and said was that they were going to keep the unit cost low.

      So, and here’s the clever thing they did.

      It has always been called a service charge, in other words, you pay for the privilege of having the grid connected to your home. It also covers the meter reading etc.

      That cost was around $17 per quarter, a one off charge on every electricity bill, and if you ask me, it’s money for jam really, because all homes are connected to the grid, even those of them who think they have off grid rooftop solar battery power. They are still connected to the grid.

      Basically, it was $17 for someone to come and read your meter once every 90 days. $17.00 A bit steep even for that.

      Here comes the wonderful trick they have now played.

      They changed that Service fee from a one off charge to a daily charge. Currently, that daily charge is around $1.07 a day, or for 90 days supply, now up around $106.00 including GST.

      How clever is that eh!

      Just to have what your home already has, connection to the grid.

      It’s not just for the Residential sector but for every consumer across all three areas of consumption, the other two being Commerce and Industry.

      Tony.

      210

      • #
        Peter C

        Tony,

        Connection to the grid could come for FREE! But that would mean that the costs of maintaining the grid (wires, transformers, home connection etc.) would have to be built into the usage costs. The big users would pay too much and small users would be subsidised.

        Now the smallest users likely include the owners of roof top solar cells, some of whom are being paid an outrageous input amount of up to 60c/kWh and loving every cent.

        I do not have any solar cells and I pay the lowest tarrif I can get, which at present is 30% off the nominal amount but I pay a lot for connection, as you say about $1.07/day (actually I think it is a bit higher).

        Maybe the connection charge is a bit too high but I am happy with that as long as we all pay the same. Solar cell owners got their cells with my help (public subsidy) and they are getting a lot more than a free ride on the feed in tariff so I don’t mind if they help contribute to the costs of the grid, which they are nearly all connected to.

        50

      • #
        ROM

        Off topic ;
        Might interest everybody here if Rereke hasn’t beaten me to it yet.

        Via GWPF

        IT’S ALL OVER: GERMANY STARTS ROLL-BACK OF CLIMATE POLICY

        Date: 30/06/16 Markus Wacket and Caroline Copley, Reuters

        Germany has abandoned plans to set out a timetable to exit coal-fired power production and scrapped C02 emissions reduction goals for individual sectors, according to the latest draft of an environment ministry document seen by Reuters on Wednesday.

        There will be a lot of water flowing under the bridge and a lot more CO2 floating around before this scientific debacle of the most devastating type for the good name and reputation of science generally is finally laid to rest.

        And for some it will only die as the last of the believers is lowered into the earth or their ashes spread across the earth, but die it will and its lessons will likely be heeded for many a future generation.

        200

      • #
        GrahamP

        Tony,

        I received an email from AGL today advising me that peak, off peak and supply are all going up by 10% on 1st July

        So it is worst than you thought!

        50

      • #
        Ross

        Tony
        Australia has just “caught up” with NZ on this. We have always had a daily rate for connection. I’m in Wellington and it has recently gone up to $2.17/day. Ripoff !!

        40

    • #
      Angry

      Thank the Liberals, Labor & greens for the electricity prices increase thanks to the SECRET ETS that comes into force as from 1st July 2016 !!!

      Malcolm Turnbull’s Secret ETS starts on 1 July 2016…….

      http://www.australianconservativecoalition.com/#!the-secret-ets/xx8a8

      Remember on polling day NOT to vote for any of these three main parties !!

      20

  • #
    Yonniestone

    I can understand the destructive powers of the incredibly hostile media what I can’t though is how quick party members forgot how Tony Abbott smashed the ALP in 2013 based on what Australians wanted then delivered!

    If Liberal members had thought of their country’s best interests and not their own bottom line they would have rallied around Abbott supported him and the Australian people would have voted as before, seriously these polls are taken from a very small percentage of an ever shrinking industry i.e. no one believes the crap presented!

    Sorry Dennis we’re sick of excuses and want action, Turnbull is a dick and Abbott isn’t.

    280

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    • #
      PeterPetrum

      I have said for almost three years, that if the whining ratbags on the back benches and the traitors on the front bench had just gone into their electorates and supported Tony in a forthright way, both to their own voters and to the media; if they had pushed his policies instead of trying to deny them, then, despite his media led “unpopularity”, the Coalition would have romped home with Tony at the front on Saturday. What a bunch of losers they ALL are, every one of them! I am SO angry!

      140

      • #
        delcon2

        We can see the results in the “Canning”by election.On those figures he would have been a “Shoo-in”

        70

  • #
    AndyG55

    ” the conservative cause in Australia is more important than any individual”

    Then WHY, OH WHY did you back Turnbull.

    He is NO conservative, never was, never will be.

    Sorry Dennis, but you got it wrong, wrong , wrong.

    270

  • #
    AndyG55

    “I ended up voting for Turnbull because he signed onto those two points”

    Again, WRONG. Turnbull will do exactly what Turnbull wants to do.

    He has NO honour for a signed agreement, especially if he manages to scrape through and win the election.

    200

  • #
    AndyG55

    Integrity is all.

    You have been tried….. and found wanting.

    90

  • #
    TdeF

    The other question is whether this is an Oakshott moment, that a parliamentary pension of $70,000 a year indexed for doing absolutely nothing is not enough, more than the average Australian salary. So is it a desire to do something real about the scam which is Climate Change/Global Warming or simply the failure to make a fortune as an author and throwing away a nice little earner by bagging your boss? Then you have to allow for all those in the electorate are outraged at the betrayal and who will never vote for Dennis Jensen again.

    60

    • #

      TdeF, he is entitled to a pension anyway as he has served 11+ years, which is more than the 8 year requirement.

      I can hear everyone on the frustration of the Turnbull choice. I can’t defend that.

      Would I rather he won than the local Liberal Candidate — yes. To give him his due, he has always spoken his mind on climate and defense — when there was nothing but trouble in it for him. Do I think Ben Morton (Liberal candidate for Tangney) would represent skeptics better? No.

      There is more information about Dennis on his website: http://www.dennisjensen.com.au/news-media/

      Dennis has preferenced the Libs second, the Libs think the Labor guy would be better than Dennis. How interested is the Liberal Party in policy and how much do they seek pure power?

      150

      • #

        I’ve added links to his site and his latest new releases:

        Dennis Jensen Federal Member for Tangney

        News and Media

        Dr Dennis Jensen calls to set science free

        History tells us climate science is not settled

        Because Dennis is not standing for the Liberal Party a vote for him is a vote against Turnbull. (Which guy would Turnbull rather have in Parliament?)

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        • #
          AndyG55

          Jo, despite Dennis’s distinct lapses in judgement on Turnbull’s character…..

          If he were in my electorate, I would vote for him.

          Turnbull is the sort of person who could easily con those who are not so used to the lowest depths and deceit of human society.

          Dennis seems to have now learnt that lesson.

          170

        • #
          Speedy

          Jo

          I happen to live in Tagney and so I sent this email to Dennis today. Whiule I was disgusted by his betrayal of Tony Abbott I can’t see much better coming out of the Turnbull Labor Party either…

          ———————————————————————————————————–

          • The recent EU “Brexit” has been greeted with shock and outrage by the elites of Europe.
          • They accuse the British people of being “racist” and “xenophobic” , as if to suggest that is why the UK has elected to leave.
          • I think the actual truth is a lot simpler.
          • The answer is “People Power” and it’s been going around since Magna Carta.
          • This may come as a surprise to the “elite”, but the only reason a government exists is to work for the people.
          • Not the other way around.
          • I watched a U-Tube called “Brexit – The Movie” and it makes the eyes boggle and water.
          • Did you know how many Brussels bureaucrats earn more than the British PM?
          • 10,000 Huh????
          • And what do the people of Europe get for their services?
          • Growth industries in Europe are debt, taxes and youth unemployment.
          • Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain – the “PIGS” of Europe – are facing bankruptcy.
          • And the EU, for all it’s heavy handed control, has failed to do anything about this and shows no sign of being either capable or interested in the problems of its people.
          • That is why the UK – very wisely – wants out of it. But, just like the other P.I.G.S., these little Brussel sprouts have their noses firmly in the trough – and they certainly squeal when they it is pulled away from them.

          • Closer to home, we have our own Brussels – it’s called “Canberra”.
          • Professional politicians, surrounded by political party machines and a burgeoning bureaucracy, are insulated from the people they are supposed to serve.
          • In practice, they only serve their political machine.
          • In the case of Labour, it is the more thuggish elements of the union movement – the MUA, the CFMEU and their ilk. Minor unions – and their members – are walked over. See what happened to the Healthcare workers etc under Bill Shorten’s leadership.
          • And Malcolm Turnbull is no better – he has much the same big spending, big taxing, big deficit agenda, only marginally less ridiculous than that of Labour.
          • But the Greens, of course, win hands down when it comes to incompetence and hypocrisy. While calling for review of political party donations, they have sold out to the MUA and CFMEU. No prizes for guessing who’s going to pull the strings there.
          • Like Brussels, Canberra has forgotten that it is the PEOPLE who are in charge and that the government only exists to serve them.
          • BUT, every four years or so, there is a thing called and election.
          • Over the last 2 months, the professional politicians have promised you the world.
          • But in 2 months’ time, they won’t even know you exist, because they’ll back to their cosy deals with their Canberra mates.

          • Isn’t it time we had some “People Power” in this electorate?
          • Why not remind the political hacks who’s in charge around here?
          • If the UK can do it, then so can we.

          Cheers,

          Speedy

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          • #
            Speedy

            Sorry. I should have included people smuggling and terrorism as the new areas for EU growth. But that would have been seen as “xenophobic” instead of just a plain fact…

            80

          • #
            Geoffrey Williams

            Good comments Speedy, agree with you all the way.
            Regards GeoffW

            00

        • #
          Speedy

          Jo

          It’s interesting, but it seems that both the shorten Labor and the Turnbull Labor Party have put Jensen last. This is despite Jensen putting Liberals second on his ticket – noble but politically naïve.

          Personally, I don’t want any more professional politicians for a while – we’ve got plenty already – so Dennis has the vote. There’s a lot of fellow engineering types in Tagney, so vote for a fellow scientist, give the Christian Democrat a chance and put the Greens in the gutter where they belong.

          Stay tuned.

          Cheers,

          Speedy

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      • #
        Peter C

        , he is entitled to a pension anyway as he has served 11+ years, which is more than the 8 year requirement.

        I don’t have a problem with that. Eight years is a lot of one’s life to devote to politics (aka Public Life). If you gave up a real job to go into politics and survived 8 years I think a public pension is ok.

        It is still not clear to me why Dennis Jensen was dumped by the Liberal Party. Maybe his stand on Climate Change was just too embarrassing to Malcolm Turnbull. I hope he can get back to parliament as an independent.

        70

      • #
        TdeF

        Of course he is entitled to a pension. My question was about motivation. Oakshott may well be elected because of the ‘none of the above’ movement. This is a very strange election where none of the above is the strongest in history, thanks to Turnbull and Shorten. However as has been openly discussed, there was a movement to put Liberals who voted Abbott out at the bottom. It was certainly the advice of John Stone. The greatest opponent of carbon tax in the Australian parliament was the man Dennis removed from office.

        50

        • #

          Was my How to Vote advice too. (which I posted before John Stone).

          See here too. Delcons — a million votes that “don’t matter”

          Those who don’t want Turnbull to run the Libs can do more than just talk about it or post one vote. They can turn up at polling booths and hand out how to vote cards for candidates who are not in the Establishment or are Abbott supporters. How much would that magnify the point?

          It sure beats one informal vote…

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          Angry

          One Nation
          Australian Liberty Alliance (ALA)
          Rise Up Australia Party
          Citizens Electoral Council
          Christian Democrats
          Shooters, Farmers & Fishers

          Are all good choices for true conservatives in the federal election.

          We must break the back of the two party, dumb & dumber, system currently in place where both liberal & labor are very BAD CHOICES for all Australians as they now have very similar policies.

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        Lucky

        I have just 9:59pm WA time, looked up D.Jensen’s site. Yes he give 2nd pref to the LIb candidate.
        Also the Lib 2nd pref goes to D.Jensen.

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  • #
    ExWarmist

    Who are the anti-green anti-MMGW candidates in Victoria?

    50

    • #
      Peter C

      Quite A few anti Green including:
      Family First, ALA, Nationals (not Turnbull Libs), LDP and One Nation.

      90

      • #
        Speedy

        Hi Peter

        Google “Liberals who voted for Turnbull” and it gives you a few hints about who the duds are. It will be how I’ll be doing my Senate vote anyway. But remember, be nice to the poor little sods handing out the how to vote” cards, and vote BELOW the line in the Senate. It is not necessary to vote for anyone you don’t like, as long as you put down 12 half-decent options. That means you go to bed on Saturday night knowing that your preference didn’t finish up with some loser for the Greens etc.

        Options are ALA, Lib Dems, Nats, Non-Turnbull Libs, Family First etc. The duds don’t need to be mentioned.

        Cheers,

        Speedy

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          Yonniestone

          I numbered all 116 tickets on the senate ballot paper, reasoning that doing just 12 would give any of the lowest (scumbags) in the remaining 104 a chance to get preferenced to a higher position and possibly a seat, which is unacceptable I my eyes.

          The Independent (ungrouped) candidates were tough to place but a couple are worth placing higher up, I made a links list for Peter C on a recent thread.

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    • #
      Yonniestone

      Anyone labelled a racist, BINGO.

      60

    • #
      ExWarmist

      Thanks.

      Cheers ExWarmist

      20

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      Scott

      My Hotham Candidates in Vic, Voted early Yesterday sorry about formatting printed out how to vote cards

      Note James Paterson ex IPA as Lib candidate

      Green Paper
      Candidate name Party ballot name Order
      HUA, George Liberal 1
      JEGES, Helen Ann Animal Justice Party 4
      O’NEIL, Clare Australian Labor Party 5
      BENNETT, James The Greens 6
      RATHBONE, Tatiana Family First Party 2
      VASSILIOU, Peter Rise Up Australia Party 3

      White Paper (12 below line)

      Group Candidate name Party ballot name Order
      O BAIN, Peter Timothy Family First Party 4
      GREEN, Randell Family First Party 5
      MANNERS, Craig Family First Party 6
      P HANNA, May Christian Democratic Party (Fred Nile Group) 7
      BOTROS, Stephanie Christian Democratic Party (Fred Nile Group) 8
      U JONES, Daniel Australian Liberty Alliance 9
      NICHOLLS, Kenneth Australian Liberty Alliance 10
      McKENZIE, Bridget The Nationals 3
      PATERSON, James Liberal 1
      TRELOAR, Rebecca The Nationals 2
      AH SPENDER, Duncan Liberal Democrats 11
      LIMBRICK, David Liberal Democrats 12

      20

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        Scott

        P.S. managed to not select two Lib Senators who voted for Turnbull: Mitch Fifield and Scott Ryan

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    Another Ian

    Jo

    O/t but OMG

    “REVEALED: ‘Rise In Hate Crimes’ Includes People Phoning Police To Complain About Nigel Farage, Says Police Chief”

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/30/revealed-rise-hate-crimes-includes-people-phoning-police-complain-nigel-farage-says-police-chief/

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    Peter C

    The Election is almost here.

    As a DELCON (Delusional Conservative) and a Tony Abbott supporter I will be voting more or less according to the Rules proposed by John Stone:

    To recap, then, those “Rules of Engagement”, first for the House: (1) vote National wherever a National Party candidate is standing; (2) if your Liberal Party member was among those betraying their leader last September, put that person last – and last means last; but if not, then vote for him or her as usual. In the Senate, the same principles apply but, because of the different voting system, must be activated somewhat differently: (3) most importantly, vote below the line, filling in 12 squares but excluding anyone in the Coalition lists who betrayed Abbott. To illustrate, in NSW I propose to give my first four votes to the four Nationals listed on the joint ticket; then to three Liberals, but excluding Marise Payne, Arthur Sinodinos and (for other reasons) Hollie Hughes; and then to Family First, Christian Democrats, Australian Liberty Alliance, Liberal Democrats and the Shooters, Fishers and Farmers Party. Easy; just follow the Rules.

    However in my case (in the Senate) I will be putting Australian Liberty Alliance first, followed by Family First, then Christian Democrats, then the National Party candidates.

    Unfortunately in my seat the choices are limited. Labor comes before Liberals because of the sell out of self funded retirees on superannuation.

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      Peter C

      Oh Forgot Lib Democrats. I am not sure where to fit them in yet,

      Also James Patterson (lib) ex IPA, not a Turnbull Liberal.

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      gigdiary

      For Victorians, James Patterson (Libs) is a good choice. As well as not being a Turnbull supporter, he is emphatic about repealing 18c and getting rid of the leftist bias in education. Hopefully, this means the vile ‘Safe Schools’ program. I’m not sure where he stands on the green scam.

      Two other Liberal senators in Victoria, Mitch Fifield and Scott Ryan, were instrumental in removing Tony Abbott. They won’t be on my list of 12 (or more).

      I will include Derryn Hinch as he is equally vocal about repealing 18c. Other than that it’s ALA, Family First et al.

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    Andrew McRae

    Hey Jonovians, how many of you have received your recorded phone message from Malcolm Turnbull yet?
    I got mine last night. So exciting! The Turnbot, or is that the Autowaffler, sincerely informed me that I was in one of just 14 close electorates in which my support would be important.
    Knowing full well no human was listening on the other end of the line, here’s how it went…

    Turnbot: It’s crucial to me that you vote for the Liberals on Saturday.

    Me: Yeah, I’ll bet it is!

    Turnbot: It’s important to maintain the course with stability in government.

    Me: Really! Is that why you knifed the sitting PM, for stability in government?

    Turnbot: Thanks so very much for your time.

    Me: So long, pal! Heheheh.

    (click!)

    He is so self-absorbed he thinks parading himself will be a turn-on for voters, but my gut reaction has been the opposite. The fact my local Fiberal incumbent was a Turnbullite was bad enough, but now chairman Mal’s audacity may have just finally clinched a Labor victory in Bonner.

    The apparent dilemma is to nuke the sellout stooges or to support the slightly less evil of two parties. More deeply the dilemma is about entrusting the ideology to a champion versus entrusting it to a party. In theory the party has the advantage it can outlast any individual. Yet the party is nothing more than what its members do, and the Liberal members have not been very liberal recently. Backing Turnbull was simply a way to back the party under the assumption that he could continue the ideology while saving the party at the polls. Now that it is clear with hindsight he is not doing either one very well, what does the voter do?

    The ideology should be entrusted to other parties and individuals who show more sign of remaining faithful to it. The Turncoats should be dumped strenuously and the Abbottista Liberals will be lucky if they keep their seat. Which other party you vote for depends on your exact preferred flavour of ideology. However not all electorates have the luxury of alternatives. Even for those with choices it is extremely likely a Labor or Liberal candidate will be elected on preferences, so one must still wrestle with the DefCon dilemma. In such dire circumstances I completely understand if people want to throw their vote away in co-ordinated disgust.

    What changes happen after the election depends on whether the loser decides they should emulate the winner more closely or whether they decide to differentiate themselves further apart from the competition. That’s where I have some bad news for conservatives. If the Liberal party cannot win the election by being socially conservative and economically laissez-faire that is probably because the public don’t want that combination. You conservatives are going to have to win that argument in the pubs, schools, and Facebook groups of the land before you will win it at the polls. It’s a democracy and people aren’t entirely sold on conservatism.

    You certainly won’t get conservatism from Labor, but in the event that you have a Turbullite infestation you can certainly help dump them. The DefCon voting strategy (endorsed by our hostess) makes sense only insofar as it instructs the voter to do the only half of the reform process that they can do, which is install or remove candidates. The voter cannot make the party improve or do anything in particular, pretensions to democracy aside.

    This would hardly be an election comment if I didn’t also push my own agenda, so…
    In political compass theory the Liberals should be in the bottom right quadrant, but their backwards social values keep them in Katter/CDP territory while the Liberal Democrats might be the only ones within coo-ee of proper freedom. Put the Liberal Democrats in pole position if you can, pad out the middle with conservatives, Labor strenuously over the Turnbullite if you have one, and lastly… as always … treat the Greens mean to keep `em keen. :-)

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      Angry

      We are on the DO NOT CALL register and have still received election calls !

      I believe that is Illegal.

      Thank God for the answering machine !

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      Graeme No.3

      Andrew:
      Only one call?
      I’ve had 3 from Turnbull, one from John Howard and one from Julie Bishop. I don’t know what they said because I was always so excited that I dropped the phone back on the rest cutting them off.

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      It’s been tediously non-stop here. We’ve had six or seven autobot calls from Labor (the incredible rudeness of having an advert call my home) and two full poll surveys. We’ve had mail and letter drops.

      We are in one of the 14 precious marginals, and even had a call from a Labor staffer. Boy did I have fun with that — playing the former-Green-card with the full tea-party style message all carefully explained through the vocabulary of the Occupy crowd. Here’s how the ALP could stop the bleed to the Greens, but out-greening them, and focusing on real environmental issues, not fake ones… Does the ALP realize it supports big-bankers through carbon trading… I’m concerned expensive electricity hurts the workers… I worry that 18C hurts the minority groups it is supposed to help…

      Seriously though, I was just being honest and sincere. The staffer scribbled notes furiously. I could hear the cogs spinning as I laid out the way the Labor Party ought to be standing up for workers, and could damage the Greens as the party of rich inner city elites who I gave up on because they rarely actually achieve anything for the environment, but they keep the renewables industry running.

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      Another Ian

      Andrew

      Well the bush obviously needs better telecommunications then

      I haven’t had any so where is my part of the fun?

      00

  • #
    Peter C

    by being socially conservative and economically laissez-faire

    I do not even have that choice. How can it be said that the public do not want that?

    10

    • #
      Andrew McRae

      By the parties’ own policy research, phone polling, and the obvious national love of Medicare, safety nets, and State schools. See also: downfall of Abbott and historically poor electoral support of the Liberal Democrats.

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  • #

    Jo,
    it is a mark of the man that he still calls himself Dennis Jensen Federal Member for Tangney. No he is not; nor is he likely to be ever again and that is a good thing and a suitable consequence for disloyalty.

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    • #

      Being liberated from one’s political party doesn’t stop one from being a Member of Parliament.
      http://www.aph.gov.au shows that Dr Dennis Jensen is still the Member for Tangney.

      An MP can only be replaced by election. Replacement Senators may be nominated by their political party but MP’s must be elected.

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    Egor TheOne

    Jensen was only one of a majority that voted for Abbott’s removal.

    We all know he is a sceptic with a serious scientific and now independent political position.

    He is exactly a voice we need against an ultimate UN Marxist takeover/degradation of our democracy via idiotic and oppressive climate change BS policies!

    He is more knowledgeable of the real science than any other in the entire spectrum of federal politicians (most are just sellouts to big business, big banks,big unions,and worst the Unelected Nutters).

    So Jensen voted against Abbott, something he did not try and hide and gave good reason for.

    Much more honest than many others that wont even admit which way they voted!

    He is a credentialed sceptic with political clout if we allow him to be…a much needed ally where it matters.

    A few more like him and then ‘we sceptics’ have some clout where it matters.

    Or would we rather more Climate Change appeasers?

    Even Abbott softened his stance from ‘Climate Change is Crap’ to climate change is part caused by us in an attempt to appease ABC nutters and the like !

    Even Barnaby of all people has moderated and boasted of a big Wind Farm project up north.

    They obviously feel they need to say such things, or they will be thrown out and then there will be not even moderate voices of reason against this global assault on our very democracy.

    Does everybody not remember how we only just got rid of the co2 tax by a small margin and with ridiculous conditions imposed by Palmer with Al Gore to keep the CAGW high priesthood up and running along with the continued Renewable Racket Subsidization?

    I summary, Jensen is not perfect, along with the rest of us, but he is a sceptic which except for the odd red thumber, makes him one of us….and one that can have a lot of positive influence against the ‘CAGW Indoctrination’!

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    Robert

    Unfortunately, the history of ex main party members running as independents is that they are not successful. I think Dr. Jensen should have realised this and perhaps stood for the Senate. It seems that Mr. Turnbull will scrape in, but the Senate result may be a can of worms. Was there a reason for a DD, or was it another example of Mr. Turnbull’s lack of political judgement.

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    • #

      Cast your minds back to 2013 when Senators were voting on giving local government recognition in the Federal Constitution; opening up the potential for the Federal Government to directly fund favourable LG areas; perhaps white-anting State Governments in the process.

      Only 8 Senators voted against the power grab. Only 2 Members of Parliament voted against the Bill. Guess who was one of them?

      I’m no Antony Green but I’m guessing that Members standing for re-election as independents, after losing party membership, may have been successful.

      It’s true that the party faithful will vote Liberal, instead of for an Independent Dennis who, if he manages to get a seat on the cross-benches, will give his constituents a much stronger voice in Parliament than any individual Member of the major parties. If the LibNat coalition again forms government, it will be with a reduced majority and will rely on cross-benchers to support its legislation.

      It’s like the UK leaving the EU; they worked out that they can cut better, individual deals for themselves than to take the same deal as every other EU member.

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        Robert

        Mr. Slipper and Mr. Thompson spring to mind as bad examples, but most party followers will toe the party line, unless of course the newly independent has a strong following.

        It will be exceedingly telling to see how the two Judas’s, Windsor & Oakshot fare. They say Barnaby has a battle with the former member for New England, and political memory is short, but many think he didn’t represent them particularly well and gave Aust. the Gillard government. I am sure Barnaby can also give the electorate plenty of goodies as deputy PM. On climate change there is not much the former member can do since carbon abatement would be insignificant.

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  • #
    Kim

    The 3 pillars of conservatism are – i) socially conservative – traditional family, ii) economically liberal – democratic capitalism, iii) law and order. If any party, or politician, claiming to be conservative does not hold to these then they are not conservative.

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    Scott

    Jo,
    For us Colonials….What is the “Delcon Dilemma”? What’s a “Pink Batt”?

    21

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      el gordo

      Delcons are delusional conservatives and pink batts are what Julia Gillard stuffed into people’s houses during the GFC.

      10

    • #
      MudCrab

      A jurno writing in an opinion column coined the term ‘DelCon’ as an insult to Delusional Conservatives who still think Tony Abbott should be playing a major role in Australian politics.

      The intent was to shame those people into silence with a big fat ‘Malcolm is PM, what are you going to do about it? Vote Labor?’

      The answer, to her horror, was then ‘Well if it gets rid of Turnbull, yup!’

      The DelCon movement, whatever size it actually is (that’s the joy of being a Right, you can be part of something without needing committees and organisers and all those little things Lefts do to make themselves seem important) has been loosely working on the concept of ‘Turnbull supporter? vote against. Abbott supporter? Vote for. Everything else? Vote for the biggest understander of science.’

      Which brings us to the Jensen problem. He voted for Turnbull (Bad) but has been a long standing and vocal spokesman for rational science (Good).

      Tricky. Personally I don’t actually forgive him for supporting Turnbull but evade the issue by living in a completely different state.

      Pink Batts are roof insulation. It was from memory one of Rudd’s great ideas during the GFE to both help pour money into the economy and help stop evil Global Warming by reducing the home heating costs. Peter ‘Midnight Oil, I hate Uranium, Oil, the timber industry, European settlement of Australia and the ANZUS Alliance’ Garrett was in charge of this program as Minister (because being a vocalist for a rock band gives you all those useful life experiences) and if I can be frank, got off extremely lightly for his near criminal mishandling of the entire issue.

      Basically houses were burnt down due to fly by night back yard people rushing in for the free money, people were killed after scores of untrained tradies flooded into the market and the existing home insulation industry was effectively destroyed. Personal view only here, but if Garrett had been part of a private company that had overseen that sort of shameless stupidity he would most probably been up on criminal charges and his company forced into receivership.

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      Scott, good point. I’ve added links to the Delcon words in the post. Thanks. Pinks Batts was an artificial bubble in home insulation created by rushed government “stimulus” to save an economy that was doing fine thanks to China. It killed four young badly trained workers who were electrocuted in ceiling spaces, and bad installation meant some houses caught on fire. After the bubble, businesses crashed. It was all so unnecessary. Jo

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        Another Ian

        Jo

        Pink Batts is an excellent example piece for a term I’ve come to use

        “Government Enthusiasms”

        Any talk of “government wisdom” would be adding another oxymoron

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  • #
    pattoh

    1/2 off topic but………

    Last night on the Sydney News there was an article about the mooted & real rise in electricity prices affecting the bottom line of “the Battlers”( non Wentworth dwellers) & particularly the pensioners.

    Anybody who spends a bit of time here is well aware of the mendacious semantic flummery of re-badging the carbon tax/emissions trading for the top 150 POLLUDERS by Greg Hunt & the PM for Goldman Sachs.

    However since the date of the Safeguard Mechanism’s installation there has been a spectacular rise in wholesale power prices.

    See:- Errors in IPCC climate science ( Warwick Hughes) :-

    http://www.warwickhughes.com/blog/?p=4559
    - Dial up the AEMO link & think about what is coming to a post box near YOU ! ( after the election!!!)

    The Clown Princes of Windfarms from SA are going to be struggling to by razors for their hairy legs when they have finished paying for that DERDY imported Victorian Brown Coal power!

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  • #
    Another Ian

    Also O/T

    “Quantum Fuel Systems Technologies Worldwide – QTWW

    Filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy (that’s the regular full bankruptcy I think).

    Why this matters? They were investors in and involved with the maker of one of the “hot” electric cars that was going to change the world. The Fiskar.”

    https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2016/06/30/quantum-fuel-systems-technologies-worldwide-files-bankruptcy-ch-11/

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    Frank

    Yet another conservative non climate scientist sceptic so certain he knows better, I see a pattern here.

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      Rereke Whakaaro

      I see, so to understand the esoteric mathematics, and the arcane physics of how the climate might change, as a result of human observation, you need to be politically liberal, or perhaps even communist, and willing to eschew all the practicality of other branches of science.

      You know, that is remarkably similar to some forms of pagan worship. Interesting.

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        Frank

        No, to understand how climate science works it might be be helpful to listen to the climate scientists, just as you may consult Dennis on a matter of physics rather than a CS, even communists do that. Other disciplines can contribute their’ views for peer review like everyone else has to, which has gone nowhere so far.
        The sceptics need to provide evidence in the real world.
        Wotan forever !

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          Rereke Whakaaro

          Oh, I have listened to climate scientists, and they have a particular point of view, which is “interesting”. I also listen to Atmospheric Physicists, and Meteorologist, and Climatologists, who have an alternative points of view, which are also interesting.

          But three things stand out as being different between the climate scientists, and the other three specialities.

          Firstly, the other three specialities tend to use meaningful scales of measurement, whereas climate scientists tend to use very odd scales of measurement, such as quoting a very real increase in temperature in terms of thousandths of a degree per decade.

          The actual number, from memory was 0.067 deg C, per decade. To me, and by my understanding of moral behavior, that could be classed as a deliberate deception, based on the psychological fact that people are more likely to give weight to the number, and less to the scale of measurement. I rephrase that point as, “two thirds of one degree, per century”, which is not a scary number at all, and certainly does not justify the millions of dollars being invested by governments to prevent it happening.

          Secondly, the other three specialities, like most scientific disciplines, stick to the subject under discussion. They do not attack other scientists on the basis of their political allegiance (as you have just done), nor their personal beliefs, nor their nationality; all of which are examples of the ad hominem logical fallacy.

          And thirdly, saying that, “The sceptics need to provide evidence in the real world”, is asking them to prove a negative. Another logical fallacy.

          It is you, or the people you are here representing, who have to provide the real world evidence that the phenomena exists; describe the mechanism that causes that phenomena, and do so. in a way that is replicable; and show that the cause and effect pertains in every case. If you cannot do that, then it is not science; it is politics, which you demonstrate very well when you refer to Mr Dennis Jensen as a; “conservative non climate scientist sceptic”.

          I don’t believe that you are a real scientist. You seem more like a journeyman PR wonk.

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            Frank

            ‘Conservative non climate scientist sceptic’ is not an ad hom attack but an observation, do your own survey. Personal beliefs should be kept private, if I want to worship my unprovable God , Wotan, I shouldn’t inflict it on anyone else. When did I attack anyone based on their nationality ?

            Your old reverse demand of proof works here in thumbsie land, a gold star to you. However, here you are trying to convince one individual, an indication that you are unsuccessful in the REAL WORLD where sadly we all do live, hence why I also don’t believe that you are a real scientist. Come on, leave the comfort of this knitting circle and submit your knockout evidence.

            16

            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              ‘Conservative non climate scientist sceptic’ is not an ad hom attack but an observation, do your own survey.

              Do my own survey? Since when were these things decided by vote of opinion? And do climate scientists have a certificate, and a little badge with “Klimate Seancist” stamped on it?

              Surveys are a tool used in the Political, Public Relations, and Applied Psychology domains. They are not applicable for use in Physics, or Chemistry, or any of the other hard sciences.

              The quoted phrase that you have chosen to highlight has nothing, whatsoever, to do with physics. It contains three ad hominem attacks, in five words – an impressive demonstration of public relations, or advertising skills – but it contains not one shred of science.

              I have not commented on your personal religious beliefs. They are entirely your affair. Also, I do not recall accusing you of attacking anybody’s nationality. Perhaps you are confusing this conversation with another?

              Your old reverse demand of proof works here in thumbsie land, a gold star to you.

              I take that quote to be your riposte to my comment that, ‘“The sceptics need to provide evidence in the real world”, is asking them to prove a negative.’? If so, Frank, keep digging, you are getting close to joining Alice in Wonderland.

              Please explain to me, the process whereby you can prove that something does not exist, or some phenomenon can never occur.

              There is bound to be a Nobel Prize in the offing, if you can do that. In the meantime, it stands as proof that you are not a real Scientist (with a capital “S”).

              I stand by my assessment; that you are just a journeyman PR wonk.

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                Frank

                So you want to avoid the basic requirement to provide counter-evidence by evoking an illogical fallacy ?, that’s simply lazy.
                Its not me you have to convince, its the scientific community, go on, give it a try.
                A prize awaits you if actually do this.
                Good luck

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              • #

                Frank July 2, 2016 at 9:52 am

                “Its not me you have to convince, its the scientific community, go on, give it a try.”

                Can you show any evedence of a “scientific community” in this issue? all you seem to have are The”SWINISH MULTITUDE!”feeding at the government trough.

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                AndyG55

                Provide your “evidence” Frank, we are waiting…

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          el gordo

          ‘The sceptics need to provide evidence in the real world.’

          Antarctica is getting colder and the Subtropical Ridge is not intensifying, two examples of imminent global cooling.

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            Frank

            What cherry picking site did you get that from ?

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            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              It doesn’t matter what the source was, the onus is on you to demonstrate that Antartica is not getting colder or the Subtropical Ridge is actually intensifying. Either of those will negate what el gordo stated.

              Do you now see how scientific debate is supposed to work, Frank?

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                Frank

                The scientists have done their job, the planet is warming. If you don’t like it then the burden of proof is with you to show otherwise, you can’t sit back and demand more evidence.
                This is why you’re stuck on this site.

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                AndyG55

                I repeat, because you don’t seem to comprehend REALIT or FACTS.

                1. No warming in the UAH satellite record before the 1998 El Nino

                2. No warming between the end of that El Nino in 2001 and the start of the current El Nino at the beginning of 2015.

                3. No warming in the southern polar region for the whole 38 years of the satellite record.

                4. No warming in the southern ex-tropicals for 20 years.

                5. No warming in Australia for 20 years, cooling since 2002

                6. No warming in Japan surface data for 20 years

                7. No warming in the USA since 2005 when a non-corrupted system was installed, until the beginning of the current El Nino.

                8. UAH Global Land shows no warming from 1979-1997, the no warming from 2001–2015

                9. Iceland essentially the same temperature as in the late 1930s as now, maybe slightly lower

                10. Southern Sea temperatures not warming from 1982 2005, then cooling …

                11. Even UAH NoPol shows no warming this century until the large spike in January 2016.

                That is DESPITE a large climb in CO2 levels over those periods.

                There IS NO CO2 WARMING effect evident in the whole of the satellite data era.

                NONE WHAT SO EVER

                The ONLY warming has come from ElNino and ocean circulation effects.

                I know the REALITY hurts your feeble little mind, but that is your problem.

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                AndyG55

                This Japanese record is fun to look at

                ZERO WARMING for 40 years between 1950-1990

                https://s19.postimg.org/fdubn5hgz/japan1950_1990.png

                Then a small step rise over about a decade

                the ZERO TREND from 1998 – now

                https://s19.postimg.org/hsm77kxpv/Japan_temps.png

                It seems like they look after their surface temperature sites a whole lot better than most places in the world.

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            AndyG55

            1. No warming in the UAH satellite record before the 1998 El Nino

            2. No warming between the end of that El Nino in 2001 and the start of the current El Nino at the beginning of 2015.

            3. No warming in the southern polar region for the whole 38 years of the satellite record.

            4. No warming in the southern ex-tropicals for 20 years.

            5. No warming in Australia for 20 years, cooling since 2002

            6. No warming in Japan surface data for 20 years

            7. No warming in the USA since 2005 when a non-corrupted system was installed, until the beginning of the current El Nino.

            8. UAH Global Land shows no warming from 1979-1997, the no warming from 2001–2015

            9. Iceland essentially the same temperature as in the late 1930s as now, maybe slightly lower

            10. Southern Sea temperatures not warming from 1982 2005, then cooling …

            11. Even UAH NoPol shows no warming this century until the large spike in January 2016.

            That is DESPITE a large climb in CO2 levels over those periods.

            There IS NO CO2 WARMING effect evident in the whole of the satellite data era.

            NONE WHAT SO EVER

            The ONLY warming has come from ElNino and ocean circulation effects.

            22

            • #
              Frank

              Andy,

              This is ripping stuff and totally waisted here.
              Please send it to the CSIRO in order to collect your prize.

              22

            • #
              AndyG55

              Poor Frank, comes up EMPTY yet again. ZERO, NULL.. a nonce.

              Please provide some actual science instead of meaningless little rants.

              32

              • #
                Frank

                What’s meaningless about pointing out the fact that your “evidence’ goes nowhere ?, the science has been done and you’re in denial.

                21

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                Frank just doesn’t understand how real science works.

                I am sure that he plots a whole lot of readings, taken from a whole lot of non-calibrated devices, in a whole lot of different locations, at a whole lot of different times of day, and gets a line on the chart that can mean whatever he wants it to mean. He calls that “proof”, and then expects us to prove that his nice line on the graph, does not exist.

                But I would definitely not call him a nonce.

                A “nonce”, according to the New Shorter Oxford Dictionary, is, “A sexual deviant; a person convicted of a sexual offence, esp. child-molesting.” It does not, as far as I can tell, apply to people who take liberties with data.

                22

              • #
                AndyG55

                A “nonce” also has a computer terminology.

                A piece of data or code used once, then thrown away or ignored… or something like that.

                Seems very apt to Fronk.

                12

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                Frank – reference 25.1.1.2.1

                “The science has been done …”

                In which case, why are all those climate scientist still employed, at the tax-payers expense? Surely, if the predictions are as dire as people such as you say, wouldn’t it be better to spend the money in ways that might lessen the impact on the general public?

                12

              • #
                AndyG55

                Again, Frank has ZERO science to offer.

                There is no real science that backs the AGW assumption..

                ….. and Frank’s continued INABILITY to produce ANYTHING AT ALL shows that he knows that.

                EMPTY NOTHINGMESS again from Fronk.

                22

              • #
                Frank

                Andy,
                Great, you retreat to your last resort – the scientific community know but are suppressing the truth = conspiracy theory, keep the foil hat on.

                RW,

                More refusal to respond to my main point, ie no counter-evidence that can get through peer review, otherwise this site wouldn’t exist. If you don’t like it then the burden of proof is with YOU to show otherwise.

                22

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                Frank, you ask me to prove a negative. That is a logical fallacy. It is impossible to PROVE that something does not exist. It is central to the whole structure of logic.

                Even my six year old grandaughter understands that: “Yesterday, upon the stair, I met a man who wasn’t there, He wasn’t there again today, I wish that man would go away!

                Do you see how your demanding that we prove that something does not exist, is a childishly silly position to take? No real scientist would make such a mistake.

                31

              • #
                AndyG55

                Still NO EVIDENCE from Fronk

                Seems he just doesn’t have any. :-)

                01

              • #
                AndyG55

                ” no counter-evidence ”

                You have yet to produce any evidence to counter… just rabid alarmist propaganda.

                waiting… waiting !!!

                Where is your evidence, Fronk?

                01

              • #
                AndyG55

                I’ll repeat yet again..

                1. No warming in the UAH satellite record before the 1998 El Nino

                2. No warming between the end of that El Nino in 2001 and the start of the current El Nino at the beginning of 2015.

                3. No warming in the southern polar region for the whole 38 years of the satellite record.

                4. No warming in the southern ex-tropicals for 20 years.

                5. No warming in Australia for 20 years, cooling since 2002

                6. No warming in Japan surface data for 20 years

                7. No warming in the USA since 2005 when a non-corrupted system was installed, until the beginning of the current El Nino.

                8. UAH Global Land shows no warming from 1979-1997, the no warming from 2001–2015

                9. Iceland essentially the same temperature as in the late 1930s as now, maybe slightly lower

                10. Southern Sea temperatures not warming from 1982 2005, then cooling …

                11. Even UAH NoPol shows no warming this century until the large spike in January 2016.

                That is DESPITE a large climb in CO2 levels over those periods.

                There IS NO CO2 WARMING effect evident in the whole of the satellite data era.

                NONE WHAT SO EVER

                The ONLY warming has come from El Nino and ocean circulation effects.

                Counter that… or STFU !!

                01

              • #
                AndyG55

                Forgot to add another one.

                NO WARMING in the whole of the 1950-1990 period in the Japan surface data.

                ZERO TREND for 40 years when CO2 was climbing rapidly.

                01

              • #
                AndyG55

                Where are you Fronk ????????

                Where is your science/data based counter..

                Tick….. tock !!!

                00

    • #
      Egor TheOne

      Ponder this equation and free yourself from Propaganda…. CAGW = BS

      31

      • #
        Frank

        RW at 25.1.1.2.7
        No, I’m asking you to answer the question of why you guys can’t get any worthwhile evidence through peer review like any REAL SCIENTIST has to do, without resorting to lame excuses. The science is falsifiable, my cat could understand that.
        If you say any attempt to provide evidence to the contrary is a logical fallacy then this and all the other sceptic sites have been a complete waste of time, every scrap of ‘evidence’ posted has been void of meaning – a thought I do hold.

        10

        • #

          Frank, thanks for posting. There are a thousand papers which support us, but you can’t see any of them can you?

          One PhD students will study comments like yours to study your blindness. Clearly it doesn’t matter what we say (or publish) …

          21

          • #
            Frank

            So why hasn’t the consensus changed if there is so much evidence as you say ? .

            00

            • #

              Lots of people like you who don’t care about evidence?

              00

              • #
                Frank

                Are you saying scientists don’t care about evidence ?, where are you going if that is your view ?
                Is the whole system corrupted, even the other disciplines ?
                If it is all a logical fallacy then why bother ?

                00

              • #

                > Are you saying scientists don’t care about evidence ?,

                Not at all. You don’t care, and the people who pretend to be “scientists” don’t.

                Prove me wrong, go on… ;- )

                00

        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          Frank,

          To answer your question – which I am willing to do – you must first define exactly what you mean by “peer review”.

          And since you bring the matter up, I am also perfectly willing to accept your assertion that your cat probably knows more about science than you do.

          The simple fact is, that nobody can provide proof that something does not exist. You might consider that pink yeti, with purple spots, do not exist because you have seen no evidence of them. That is fine, but you cannot prove that they do not exist. To demand proof that something is nonexistent is the logical fallacy, and yet, you keep on demanding.

          Climate scientists may say that the entire planet is going to warm by 3.8 degrees Kelvin by Wednesday week. We cannot provide evidence that it will not. But, come Wednesday week, if the entire planet has not warmed by any appreciable amount, let alone 3.8 degrees, then the original assertion becomes self-falsifying.

          What happens in the real world, is that climate scientists may claim that the entire planet is going to warm, but they avoid stating a time frame that can be used to validate their claim or not.

          My six year old granddaughter can spot that ruse. Probably because she knows more about logic than you appear to do.

          00

    • #
      KinkyKeith

      No Frank.

      WE see the pattern.

      An uneducated cheer leader for a new and fashionable cause.

      A Cheerleader who is Gullible and unable to see that the people he is promoting are just the usual self interested mob focussed only on control and power.

      KK

      22

      • #
        Frank

        KK,
        Ho hum, another conspiracy theorist outs himself.
        I knew this was a science free zone.

        01

        • #

          Nah Frank, KK is right. You pop in here with your formulaic insults, you have no content or argument. Yawn.

          00

          • #
            Frank

            Did you read the last part of KK’s post ?

            [I have no doubt that she read it. She was a part of that discussion after all. So why this? If there's a point it's not evident.] AZ

            00

            • #

              Hmmm. The wicked meme of “self-interest”? Well, of course you and I both know that no one ever does anything in self-interest.

              Got your “spot the conspiracist” glasses on? I’m sure you’ll find millions of them.

              00

            • #

              Frank attributes the swinish multitude to a conspiracy! The swinish multitude have not sufficient cohesion to support a conspiracy! :-)

              10

        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          You know, I always like it when people use the term, “conspiracy theorist”, as if it were an insult. In fact it is not.

          The term actually applies to a person who theorises that there is a conspiracy, based on the available evidence. Therefore, using the term is a form of acknowledgement, that they are on the right track.

          10

        • #
          AndyG55

          “I knew this was a science free zone.”

          When you are here.. it certainly is.

          Waiting for some of your “science”….

          tick, tock…

          tick…… tock

          seems Fronk’s clock has stopped.

          10

    • #
      AndyG55

      We see a pattern too..

      ZERO, NULL, EMPTY science in any posts from you.

      Just empty garbage rhetoric.

      Your stock in trade.

      12

  • #
    Ross

    Good luck with your voting on Saturday. I hope it goes the way you want. From an outsider’s perspective I think you have some very difficult choices to make.

    60

  • #
    Steve of Cornubia

    I’m sorry, but Jensen’s words seem contradictory. On the one hand, he says he is glad to be outside the Liberal party, where egos ruled the day apparently, then he goes on to say (my own interpretation) that he was unhappy because the party leader didn’t do things the way he wanted them done and Abbott’s office wouldn’t listen to him. His complaints tell me he has just as much ego as those he criticises. Jensen displays no loyalty, either to the man who helped him so much, nor the party that provided him with support to get into Parliament as an apprentice MP.

    Perhaps I’m being harsh and he is no worse than any of them. It is often said that, “Anybody who actually WANTS to be an MP, should be barred from ever being one.”

    50

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      Steve,

      You cannot survive as a politician, unless you have a military grade ego. Thinking about it; having a serious ego is probably the only qualification they need.

      40

      • #
        Steve of Cornubia

        “….having a serious ego is probably the only qualification they need.”

        Absolutely, yet they nevertheless despise others who have equally oversized egos.

        20

  • #
    pat

    ***trillion dollar GOAL but, on BBC World Service news headlines last nite, it started with the trillion dollar deal, & sounded like it was ready to go:

    30 Jun: World Bank: World Bank, India Sign Deal to Boost Solar Globally
    NEW DELHI, June 30, 2016 — The World Bank Group today signed an agreement with the International Solar Alliance (ISA), consisting of 121 countries led by India, to collaborate on increasing solar energy use around the world, with the ***goal of mobilizing $1 trillion in investments by 2030.
    The agreement signed in the presence of Finance Minister Arun Jaitley, Union Minister of State with Independent charge for Power, Coal, New and Renewable Energy Piyush Goyal and World Bank Group President Jim Yong Kim establishes the World Bank Group as a financial partner for the ISA and sees the institution as using its global development network, global knowledge and financing capacity to promote the use of solar energy.
    The World Bank also announced that it planned to provide more than $1 billion to support India’s ambitious initiatives to expand solar through investments in solar generation…
    In keeping with the Bank’s commitment to support India’s solar energy program, the Government of India and the World Bank today signed an ***agreement for the $625 million Grid Connected Rooftop Solar Program…READ ALL
    http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2016/06/30/world-bank-india-sign-deal-to-boost-solar-globally

    ***agreement above becomes ***loan below:

    1 Jul: Voice of America: World Bank to Back India’s Solar Power Initiative
    The alliance was launched by India and France at the U.N. Climate Change Conference in Paris last November and includes about 120 countries that support the promotion of solar energy.
    As part of the agreement, the World Bank will work with other multilateral development banks and financial institutions to develop financing for solar energy development, the World Bank said…
    Also Thursday, the World Bank and the Indian government signed an agreement for a $625 million ***loan to finance the installation of at least 400 MW of solar panels that will help reduce greenhouse gas emissions by displacing thermal generation.
    http://www.voanews.com/content/world-bank-to-back-indias-solar-power-initiative/3398439.html

    20

  • #
    pat

    headline figure is only out by nine hundred ninety-nine billion three hundred seventy-five million!
    but at least the headline does admit it’s a loan, whatever it is…lol.

    30 Jun: IndiaToday: IANS: Arpan Rai: PM Modi lands World Bank’s record 1 trillion dollars loan for mega solar power project
    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/pm-modi-lands-world-banks-record-1-trillion-dollars-loan-for-mega-solar-power-project/1/704572.html

    20

  • #
    Robert R

    No one should vote for whatever reason in a way that inadvertently helps the left in this election.
    In history, lefties have always been aggressive by nature because they covert other peoples’ wealth because they think it is immoral and unethical to create your own. Their ideal is entitlement, their hope is to procure.
    The right have always been defensive by nature because they have had to defend or conserve their wealth that they created against this. Even the term ‘conservative’ comes from this. Their ideal is aspiration, their hope is to achieve.
    OMG – no labor/greens government next week please!

    90

    • #
      Robert R

      sorry for the rant and lack of humour, hopefully we can all relax next week lol

      40

    • #
      Steve of Cornubia

      I’m afraid I can’t agree, Robert. There are several reasons why. The first is my conscience, which makes it impossible for me to reward treachery. Secondly, I greatly fear what Turnbull and his self-serving conspirators will do to the Liberal party should he win his own mandate in the election. Thirdly, my view is that the Left is slowly winning the political contest, by various means, not just elections (such as their takeover of the public institutions, education and the media) and the only way back is to re-establish Conservatism and principle in politics.

      If voters go along with Turnbull’s actions, it bodes ill for democracy in Australia, for we are drifting toward faux-politics, where what citizens believe to be a real contest of ideas and visions is in reality just a spectator sport, with the players masquerading as Left or Right simply as a means to attain power.

      I will therefore be (hopefully) sending a message in my own small way, by studiously refusing to reward Turnbull plotters while, wherever possible, supporting Abbott loyalists, Conservatives in the Libs and Nats, and other parties. I’m playing the long game, because frankly, despite agreeing with you that a Labour government would be a disaster, I think a Turnbull government wouldn’t be significantly better and would further weaken Conservatism in Australia.

      60

      • #
        Robert R

        I’m playing the long game,

        Steve, respectfully understand your view. However at the moment, the world is positioned at the end of a long term macro economic growth cycle that has already turned. Things are serious now. Economies like Australia could absorb bouts of what labor now stands for, in the past better times when China was buying a lot of resources. But now because of our position in the cycle we can’t. The fat is gone, we have only immense debt with nothing to replace that debt. Therefore another 3 year labor government now would be 100 times worse than the last 3 year one. The luxury of thinking long term now is unfortunately not an option. We can only just think of just making best of the situation of a Turnbull win, by far the best outcome at the moment.

        51

        • #
          Steve of Cornubia

          “The fat is gone, we have only immense debt with nothing to replace that debt.”

          Totally agree, but Turnbull will spend just as much as Labor, more or less. And just like Labor and its $1M school shade structures, the current Liberal team are prepared to waste borrowed money on inferior infrastructure – Exhibit 1: our new submarines.

          I’ll have my fingers crossed the whole time I’m in the voting booth, believe me, but I’ll accept a step backwards if it’s followed-up by two steps forwards and a clear-out of Liberal ranks.

          30

          • #
            Robert R

            In Australian political history it has been the case that labor governments have always created debt and liberal governments were the only ones that reduced debt or created surplices. The only reason that the liberals haven’t reduced debt lately as they always have in the past is that the senate has stopped them. You can blame the senate for the current debt. It may be impossible now, alas, but if the current Liberals won the senate, they would reduce debt considerably in the next term because they would not be pushed to be popularist spenders by this awful senate we have been subject to in recent years. Turnbul as leader is window dressing to try and co-operate with ( as a show of ‘identification’ with) this senate and media popularism that has to be overcome somehow because it is so destructive.

            40

    • #
      PeterPetrum

      No, Robert, you will probably get a Liberal/Green gubbermant – bad enough. Vote ALA in the Senate and in the Reps, if you are one of the lucky ones with an ALA candidate.

      00

      • #
        Robert R

        Peter, you don’t have to convince me, I am probably even more philosophically to the right in politics than even you are. I respect your views. However I would have only been prepared to experiment along those lines a few years ago. But now the world is a very different place. These days this economy will suffer serious long term damage from a left leaning labor/greens government in the next 3 years, voted for, based just on the theory that this would lead to a stronger conservative opposition during such a labor government. And this may not even eventuate in this scenario. The risk of this is also too great and could even lead to a double whammy disaster if the sun does not shine on such an outcome. It is far, far safer to return the coalition today and then deal with the issue of moving the resultant coalition government further to the right with its policies and leadership….probably difficult but not impossible, but a lot less risky than having to get rid of another labor government that may also even entrench itself somehow after it’s first term.

        00

  • #
    pat

    we’ve PLEDGED:

    25 Apr: UNFCCC: Ministers Aim to Mobilize $1 Trillion Investment in Solar Energy
    Following the signing of the historic Paris Climate Change Agreement in New York on 22 April, governments have ***pledged to take concerted action to lower the costs of clean energy and to unleash a potential investment flow of up to USD 1 trillion into solar assets, among a raft of other initiatives.
    At the United Nations in New York, Indian Power, Coal and Renewable Energy Minister Piyush Goyal and French Environment Minister and President of COP 21 Segolene Royal co-hosted an event on the International Solar Alliance (ISA), launched by India and France at the UN Climate Change Conference in Paris last December…
    ***The 25 countries represented at the event included ***Australia, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Brazil, Djibouti, Ethiopia, Maldives, Mali, Namibia, Netherlands, Nigeria, Peru, Seychelles, Sri Lanka, Suriname, Uganda, Zambia, India and France…
    http://newsroom.unfccc.int/climate-action/25-countries-pledge-to-facilitate-usd-1-trillion-of-investment-in-solar/

    20

    • #
      Robert

      Looking at the solar farm production here, it’s not difficult to explain why they contribute hardly a Kw when really needed, 7-9 am. and 5-7 pm. NO SUN. Actually, if you look at the AEMO site you will find production is far less than espoused initially by the snake oil salesmen/lobbyists.

      70

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      So Australia, the Netherlands and France are going to supply $one trillion to the others?

      30

  • #

    Well Dennis’s narrative on why the parliamentary party could not continue under Abbott accords with everything I’ve heard and seen.

    Jo this is so wrong it is almost funny,

    If Abbott just reminded everyone about the boats, the carbon tax, the pink batts, and the monster debt, the public would have still picked the incumbents.

    that was last election and the public would see through that being repeated, as they were last year before the Turnbull coup.

    212

    • #

      Gee Aye, this is so wrong it’s almost funny:

      “that was last election and the public would see through that being repeated, as they were last year before the Turnbull coup.”

      Half the Labor Party are still fighting to bring in more asylum seekers, all of the Labor Party want a Carbon Tax (and doubleplu) and are trying to spend money they don’t have.

      Show me where the ALP has learnt any lesson at all from Gillard Rudd or Swan?

      131

      • #

        Point me at a single Labor member who apologized for voting to bring in a carbon tax that they said they wouldn’t?

        161

      • #

        reactive policies (no they are not they are just statements), the same reactive statements as before, wore thin with the electorate and the party snapped: a dysfunctional PM’s office was one of the causes and was also unable to muster itself to stop it.

        I don’t think hearing, again, what the Labor party does is what people want to hear from the incumbents. They want to know what they do.

        110

        • #
          PeterPetrum

          Having watched and listened to Peta Credlin commenting on the election campaigns over the last few, totally boring weeks, I can fully understand why Tony Abbott refused to get rid of her. She has one of the sharpest minds, clearest presentations and acute perceptions of anybody I have ever had the pleasure of listening to. Clearly, there was no dysfunction in the PM’s office when Tony was the PM, and clearly that was due to Credlin. Compare that to the stuff ups, contradictions and bloopers that have been made by so many of Turnbull’s “team” and you can see the difference. The so called “domineering” claims clearly came from those miserable back bench whingers that wanted to come and cry on Tony’s shoulder and were promptly kicked out by this Amazon of a woman. If a man had behaved as she had, there would have been no complaints!

          00

  • #
    pat

    wow…why is this guy even speaking to the European Parliament?

    30 Jun: YahooFinance: Julia La Roche: Here’s the chilling speech George Soros gave to European Parliament
    Statement submitted to the European Parliament by George Soros. 30 June, 2016
    The vote for Brexit was a great shock to me and, I imagine, to most people in this room. Last Friday morning, the disintegration of the European Union seemed practically inevitable.
    But as the initial disbelief wore off, something unexpected happened, and the tragedy no longer looks like a fait accompli.
    Over the past week, buyer’s remorse has begun to set in, as the hypothetical became very real: sterling plunged, Scotland threatened to break away, and some of the working people who supported the “leave” campaign started to realize the bleak future that both the country and they personally face. Even the champions of leave are retracting their dishonest pre-referendum claims about Brexit.
    In a ***spontaneous response, over four million people petitioned Parliament to hold a second referendum. By the time the Parliamentary debate on this petition takes place, it is not inconceivable that more people will have signed the petition than voted for Brexit…
    Just as Brexit was a negative surprise, the ***spontaneous response to it is a positive one…

    First, it unleashed a crisis in the financial markets comparable in severity only to that of 2007/8…
    Second, the EU faces growing military threats…
    ***In order to raise the necessary funds in the short term, the EU will need to engage in what I call “surge funding.” This entails raising debt by leveraging the EU’s relatively small budget, rather than scraping together insufficient funds year after year…

    ***I was greatly encouraged last year when Minister Schauble raised the idea of a pan-European gasoline tax. The European Parliament should seriously consider this idea…
    The proper route for such a tax increase would be for the European Commission to propose new legislation to be adopted with the unanimous support of all members…

    In any case, the EU and its member states must find new sources of tax revenue. Another approach would be to levy special EU-wide taxes. The new tax revenue could come from a variety of sources, including the existing EU-wide VAT; or a new tax on travel into the EU and on visa applications, which would shift some of the burden onto non-EU citizens wishing to travel to the EU…ETC
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/full-text-of-soros-speech-to-eu-parliament-115156180.html

    u won’t believe Soros’s response at 3min30secs:

    30 Jun: Youtube: 4min20secs: UKIP MEP Gerard Batten tackles George Soros in the European Parliament
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GKkvnBuJTk

    30

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      … why is this guy even speaking to the European Parliament?

      That is a very good question. The European Parliament has no teeth, can make no decisions, and the Members of the European Parliament have no sway over the Bureaucracy.

      It is a paper tiger.

      30

    • #
      Egor TheOne

      Great Video Pat !

      It seems there are others with talent in UKIP besides Farage.
      A very good speech about Brexit and a good kick to the pathetic Marxist Conglomerate (EU), and their senile BSer,Sorrowful Soros!

      20

    • #
      diogenese2

      “In a ***spontaneous response, over four million people petitioned Parliament to hold a second referendum. By the time the Parliamentary debate on this petition takes place, it is not inconceivable that more people will have signed the petition than voted for Brexit…”

      Queries arose when 7000 responses came from the Vatican City (population circa 800). It appears the “4 million” were half a dozen spambots re-cycling e-mail addresses into a hacked petition set up by a Brexit supporter prior to the poll in anticipation of LOSING!
      Dozens of “journalists” bought the scam when junior school arithmetic would have told them it was a hoist. Not surprised Soros fell for it looking at the video above.

      10

  • #
    handjive

    Prepare for prefect weather …

    Hole in the ozone layer is finally ‘healing’

    97% Science! “The ozone hole has also led to dramatic changes in Southern Hemisphere weather patterns.
    These in turn are altering natural ecosystems and food production.”

    Comment via SteveGoddard@twitter:

    > Or maybe that much-hyped “hole” was natural all along, and will never “heal” <

    31

    • #
      handjive

      prefect = perfect

      10

      • #
        ROM

        And then maybe the Hole is healing because the UV component of solar radiation in the less than 240 nm range which is both the creator and destroyer through disassociation of the O2 molecule which recombines as the unstable O3 aka Ozone in the highest reaches of the atmosphere has declined to very low levelsas the sun goes into one of the lowest activity states seen for a century or more.

        Unfortunately we again see science being promoted in its most deceptive form by supposed  scientists who seem intent only on filling their trough to even deeper levels at the expense of the tax payer allied with an entirely scientifically ignorant and unquestioning media.

        Ozone Production and Destruction

        The first part of this article on Ozone deals with how Ozone is created and destroyed by solar energy in the form of solar UV which has always been the only creator as well as the only destroyer of the very high atmosphere Ozone since time began .

        They then go onto the effects of chlorine on Ozone supposedly from the CFC’s but do mention that the oceans also have a high chlorine release which has never been accurately calibrated both where and how much and in variations over time, all of which would affect Ozone levels in the atmosphere.

        The claimed and modeled only CFC chlorine / ozone chemical reactions and destruction that the theory of Ozone hole destruction rests on have since been shown in observed in recent laboratory conditions to be incapable of occurring in the very low pressures and very low temperatures existing at the altitudes where the Ozone Hole exists during the winter / spring period in both hemispheres.
        [ yes, there is an Ozone hole on occassions in the northern hemisphere Arctic where all those CFC's were released and a damn long way from the Antarctic where the Ozone hole is big time for a well funded group of Ozone hole "experts". [ sarc/ ]

        So again in the decades ahead I believe it will once again be shown that it was the “sun wot dun it” and CFC’s had very little to do with any so called Ozone destruction and the creation of the Ozone Hole which is likely to have been in existence ever since the Sun began to throw out UV radiation in the narrow radiation band required, the orbital variations of the Earth around the Sun were in suitable orbit and there was a South pole and a Polar Vortex at altitude around that South Pole.

        51

    • #
      Steve of Cornubia

      That’s OK. The anti-human environmentalists moved on from “Aaaagh! The ozone-hole! We’re doomed!” years ago, and onto “Aaaaagh! Climate change! We’re doomed!”

      They don’t need that one any more.

      41

      • #
        Graeme No.3

        No, no. The ozone hole wasn’t going to ‘heal’ for a hundred years. Another prediction of doom that failed.

        41

  • #
    ROM

    Off topic but its politics and a supplementary to Pats post @ # 33.

    As a land lubber living a couple of hundred kilometres from the ocean I rarely get to see that ocean but I was always fascinated by all those little rivulets of sea water streaming down the sand as the tide began to run out.

    I am having a similar feeling now about the EU as it seemingly has passed its high water mark and its tide begins to run out.

    An article I saw in the last day or so has suggested that the political leaders in the EU are now getting into some heavy political infighting and are about to go after the extraordinarily arrogant European Commission chief Jean-Claude Juncker.

    He is the same Juncker who literally threatened the British nation if all sorts of retribution if they voted to leave the EU.
    And it now seems he might about to be set up as one of the significant causes for the Brexit vote.

    So it is with some interest I came across this headline in one of my daily news reads The Local , an “on line” news mag that translates news items from a number of European nations into an English language edition each day.
    ———

    Merkel demands German vote on EU free trade deal

    [ quoted ]
    Chancellor Angela Merkel said Thursday that the German parliament should be consulted on the EU’s free trade deal with Canada, setting her on a collision course with European Commission chief Jean-Claude Juncker.

    Canadian and European leaders formally concluded the deal known as CETA in 2014, but implementation has been delayed due to last-minute objections in Europe over provisions for an investment protection system that would help shield companies from government intervention.

    This system is key to a similar but far more ambitious agreement currently under negotiation between the EU and US and has drawn fierce criticism, especially in Germany where hundreds of thousands of people rallied in October to oppose both accords.

    “It is a highly political agreement that has been widely discussed,” said Merkel, adding that the “Bundestag is allowed to be involved of course… in national decisions”.

    Juncker had however said Wednesday that the deal could be endorsed by the EU without national parliaments’ approval.

    “The Commission has come to a conclusion that … it is not a ‘mixed agreement’”, said Juncker. In EU jargon, a mixed accord is one that requires both the approval of the European parliament and national legislatures.
    Germany’s Economy Minister Sigmar Gabriel had scathing words for Juncker, telling the Tagesspiegel daily that the European Commission chief’s comment was “incredibly stupid”.

    The EU’s 28 member states had insisted in May that CETA should only enter into force after national parliaments give their approval.
    [ / ]

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    KinkyKeith

    The Lower house seat of Newcastle is a lost cause unfortunately and as mentioned before nobody on that ticket will get any electoral cash as a result of my vote. Sad.

    I do intend to make a good go at the Upper House however and am still looking for ideas.

    As a result of comments earlier on here I am assembling a group of names associated with the Christian Democrats and Family First parties plus David Leyonhjelm.

    Any ideas on worthy individuals in either Christian democrats or Family First in NSW?

    Jobe
    Vincent
    McCaffrey

    Lions
    Phillips
    Vincent
    Broadbridge
    AvasaluLea
    El-Daghl
    Knox
    ?

    KK

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    • #
      Yonniestone

      Don’t know how much time or patience you have KK but looking at your electoral division of Newcastle you have 151 tickets on the senate ballot paper, lucky you. :)

      My method was to print out all the candidates as they appear on the link above (6 pages for me) lay them out in order then group the parties you know about with a bracket around the letters they represent, do research on the ones your’e not sure of and make notes on each group on those pages, the ungrouped candidates can be difficult if not impossible but you will find some good ones that have become disillusioned and left a major party.

      Then I started numbering my best choices 1 to whatever next to the letters on the pages, then I did the same with my worst choices 151 to whatever, eventually you get towards the middle and have to decide the best out of a bad lot until all 151 are numbered(you’ll know if you’ve stuffed up) , I then copied the information to paper with A to UG and it’s number beside it, in the polling booth you simply transfer those numbers in order onto the ballot paper.

      Sorry if this comes across a bit “Yonnie voting 101″ but I’m a simple man with a heart of gold in a complicated land.

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      • #
        KinkyKeith

        Thanks for that.

        I have downloaded the Senate file and the names listed are what’s left after excluding the obvious libs labs and assorted newcomers. Sorry but the scuffles on TV made me unsure about ALA so they aren’t in the picture.

        I normally number the entire thing by I think twelve will be a good enough effort.

        Hope it works out for us and sends a message to the master manipulators in particular politics.

        :-)

        KK

        30

        • #
          Yonniestone

          I’ll be interested to see the % of swing to the so called ‘far right’ parties, it mat be nasty surprise to the master manipulators.

          ALA have been largely censored hard by the MSM and politicians, they are feared by the two parties as they strongly resonate with most of the population, something they should be doing instead of treating public service as purely a personal business, this blanket censorship will work against them as people slowly wake from electoral sleepwalking and take the other choices.

          40

  • #
    MudCrab

    Sorry Dennis.

    On the plus side I don’t live in WA, so I am unlikely to be in a position to either assist or hinder you on Saturday.

    Also on the plus side I often find it difficult to truly hate someone.

    On the negative side of things I don’t forgive. You burnt that bridge. We openly told anyone who would listen that Turnbull was useless in 2009 and had shown no signs of changing. We openly told anyone who would listen that Turnbull was a power hungry man who valued personal success over the success of the party. We told anyone who would listen that Turnbull was openly whiteanting Abbott and rather then being the solution to the opinion poll results, was actually a significant part of the problem.

    And then you went and supported him anyway.

    And now you thing a simple ‘oppps, made a bit of a mistake there, guess you guys were right all along’ is going to cut it?

    On the plus side, burning a bridge that big would have released tons of EVIL CARBON into the atmosphere, so even though I don’t forgive you, at least you still managed to make some Greenies cry.

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    • #
      Another Ian

      Mud Crab

      Or as I’ve seen elsewhere

      “Don’t burn your bridge till you can walk on water:”

      And brain farts don’t get pass marks

      00

  • #
    pat

    ROM -

    add this to your Reuters’ “IT’S ALL OVER: GERMANY STARTS ROLL-BACK OF CLIMATE POLICY” link u posted above, plus your Canada trade deal comment.

    (subscription req)
    30 Jun: CarbonPulse: Germany calls for urgent fix to EU emissions registry after dire survey results
    The EU’s emissions trading registry is in urgent need of being overhauled, Germany’s emissions trading authority said, after a survey found unanimity among respondents in calling for the system’s usability to be improved…

    plus for fun -

    “influential” tweeters?

    30 Jun: ClimateChangeNews: Megan Darby: Gore, Calderon spotlight Sweden and Germany’s coal dilemma
    Influential former politicians and climate advocates weigh in on controversial Vattenfall brown coal deal
    Al Gore and former Mexico president Felipe Calderon tweeted that Sweden and Germany should keep coal in the ground…
    Meanwhile, a draft climate plan leaked to Reuters suggests Berlin is backing away from setting a phaseout timetable for coal-fired power generation…
    Martin Vogel of the Church of Sweden International Department welcomed pressure from such prominent international figures…
    “It is a big disappointment,” said Jan Kowalzig, Berlin-based climate expert with Oxfam. “The government has caved in under industry pressure as if the Paris Agreement never happened and as if climate change wasn’t becoming the biggest threat to human development around the globe.”…
    SHARAN BURROW TWEET: don’t sell out workers and the climate Sweden – a just transition requires a deal with Germany…
    http://www.climatechangenews.com/2016/06/30/gore-calderon-spotlight-sweden-and-germanys-coal-dilemma/

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    • #
      Angry

      Oxfam……….A thoroughly despicable pro global warming SCAM & anti human organization!

      70

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    pat

    30 Jun: UKExpress: Nick Gutteridge: REVEALED: Merkel NEEDS free trade deal with UK or 750,000 German jobs could face the axe
    ANGELA Merkel will have to agree to a free trade deal with an independent United Kingdom because 750,000 jobs rely on cross-Channel exports, a senior economics analyst has warned today.
    Germany exports to the UK are more than double the value of those heading in the other direction, with British customers acting as a lifeline for “crucial” industries including car manufacturing on which its economies relies…
    Figures from the German government show last year the country sold 89 billion euros (£73.5bn) worth of products to customers on our shores, whilst British industries exported just 38 billion euros (£314bn) in reply.
    Mr Biese, who is the chief political analyst for the broadsheet Sueddeutsche Zeitung newspaper, said as many as 750,000 jobs could be on the line if Merkel pursues a policy of punishment towards post-Brexit UK…
    “It includes mechanical engineering, the pharmaceutical industry, IT, the food industries. So very big areas in which a lot of money is turned over.”…
    “We need to maintain the dialogue with Britain and what is good for the economy will someday also be good for politics.” …
    ***Elsewhere today, it emerged that Britain is already beginning the groundwork for new free trade deals with emerging economies across the globe.
    ***New Zealand has offered the Government the help of its expert negotiators whilst a number of countries including Australia, South Korea, Canada, India and Mexico ready to start talks.
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/684885/EU-referendum-Brexit-Merkel-trade-deal-UK-Britain-German-jobs

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    • #
      Geoffrey Williams

      Germany’s car deal with Britain may be a lever for the exit deal. Hope so. The British love German cars!
      GeoffW

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    • #
      Geoffrey Williams

      Germany’s car deal with Britain may be a lever for the exit deal. Hope so. The British love German cars!
      GeoffW

      20

  • #
    Geoffrey Williams

    Well done again Jo.
    Now is not the time to bear grudges.
    The past is the past,let’s just get on the present.
    Jenson deserves our support, he’s one of us.
    Can’t help as I’m voting from NSW.
    Good luck to Dennis Jenson.
    GeoffW Sydney

    30

  • #
    pat

    30 Jun: Reuters: Brexit spells end to EU leadership in climate diplomacy
    By Alissa de Carbonnel and Nina Chestney
    Britain’s vote to leave the union has disrupted everyday affairs and probably displaced climate concerns as a political priority…
    With India, China and the United States hastening to lock in their pledges this year, some experts predict that could even be by the next round of climate talks in November in Marrakesh…
    “The likely scenario is that come Marrakesh, the EU will be very embarrassed,” said an EU source close to the talks…
    Privately, however, others see delays to the proposal on how to implement the Paris deal to avoid it being challenged later.
    “What do you do with the U.K., effort which was a piece of the whole puzzle?” an EU official asked. “There’s uncertainty: people don’t know and Brits don’t know either.”
    Meanwhile, some fear Britain’s diminished voice will allow to member states such as Poland to dilute measures to curb their reliance on coal or improve air quality.
    “This is at very best a massive distraction and at very worst disruption,” said Rachel Kyte, chief executive of U.N. body Sustainable Energy for All. “Having a strong Europe push from the front has been a repeated pattern of breakthroughs.”
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-climatechange-idUSKCN0ZG1WS

    transform on…

    28 Jun: ClimateChangeNews: UN climate chief to UK: ‘Stay calm and transform on’
    Christiana Figueres tells business leaders that Brexit vote is not an obstacle to continued cooperation between Britain and the EU, reports the ***Guardian
    By Adam Vaughan and Anna Menin
    Asked if the Brexit vote would become an obstacle to action on climate change, she said: “No. Climate change action is by now unstoppable. It is global.”…
    http://www.climatechangenews.com/2016/06/28/un-climate-chief-to-uk-keep-calm-and-transform/

    ***30 Jun: Breitbart: Guardian Publishes Begging Letter: ‘The World Needs The Guardian More Than Ever’
    by Donna Rachel Edmunds
    The Guardian’s journalists are “required to provide the answers people desperately need at this time of anxiety and confusion,” Ms. Viner argued, adding: “Whichever side of the Brexit debate you were on, we are entering a period of great political and economic uncertainty, and the Guardian’s role in producing fast, well-sourced, calm, accessible and intelligent journalism is more important than ever.
    “Which is why I want to ask you, our readers, to help fund that journalism […] so we can continue interrogating exactly what has happened, and why, and what needs to happen next.”
    As a parting plea, she concluded: “These are perilous times for progressive politics – and at moments like these the world needs the Guardian more than ever.”…
    In January this year the paper announced that it was slashing its running costs by a fifth – some £54 million a year – after a financial review found that it was set to burn through its £758m trust fund in under a decade…
    Fellow left-wing paper The Independent ceased issuing print editions at the end of March, moving to a digital only format in a bid to cut costs amid falling readership.
    Meanwhile the lefty start-up The New Day, which was launched with a £5 million TV advertising campaign in March, folded just two months after it launched as sales quickly dropped to just 30,000 copies.
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/30/guardian-publishes-begging-letter-world-needs-guardian/

    10

  • #
    Robert

    Tomorrow night we will know who is going to waste billions of taxpayers dollars, be it Mr. Turnbull or Mr. Shorten, on combatting climate change somehow, or building useless renewable energy schemes. Sad isn’t it.

    And yet we could invest in using our own supply of Uranium to set-up a nuclear industry and build nuclear power stations, use our own coal and build some modern HELE coal stations, or even spend a few dollars to obtain 180 MW of 24/365 electricity from the ill-fated Gordon stage 2. hydro station.

    And when there is the rare occasion when there is a parliamentarian who understands a little science the powers that be don’t want to know about it!

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    • #
      Angry

      We must get a Senate that is controlled by REAL Conservatives in order to stop the leftist treasonous agenda of the Liberals, Labor & greens…………

      30

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    Ross

    It will be interesting to see if the young Aussies learn anything from the Brexit vote ( assuming they know the details). That is, if you want your voice heard you have to vote.

    10

  • #
    Trevor

    Quite frankly, Dennis Jensen has severely damaged his reputation for common sense just as my local “conservative” Lib has. We knew what Malcolm was like the last time he was in the top job and we all knew his priorities were those of the left. We also knew that he was intentionally undermining Abbott openly.

    He also should have known that Shorten did not stand a chance against an Abbott in election mode who was ignoring the populist media circus (er cycle) for actually governing – because it was not election time! Had Abbott had a more loyal team perhaps he could have been more open.
    We also know that Labor had damaged their reputation (such that it is) by their musical chairs with leaders so for Jensen to approve the Libs doing the same !!!!

    For Jensen to oust a PM with the guts to stand against the BS of AGW (not to mention boats) is unforgivable in MHO. This seems more about Jensen’s weak fortitude and character than anything else. If we compare it side by side with the reaction of Bernardi who was sacked for making true comments that were taken out of context by the left wing media (and are now coming true), and who continued to be loyal to Abbott, who sucked up the humiliation and got on with the job then Jensen’s performance is even worse. Cory is a man of substantial character who stood for principles over personal ego.

    Thanks partly to the actions of Jensen we now have a carbon tax AGAIN!! Plus a left wing PM championing the values of the marxists, banksters and champagne luvies.

    So for Jensen to stand as an independent? Who knows what he stands for? The only plus was his opposition to AGW and he voted for it in Turnbull.

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  • #
    Reed Coray

    I get the feeling that many Australians view Dennis Jensen similar to how I view Donald Trump. In the past, Donald Trump has contributed to Hillary Clinton campaigns, and apparently Dennis Jensen backed Malcolm Turnbull. In my mind, anyone who for whatever reason ever contributed to Shrillary is not a true conservative and deserves ten lashes per dollar donated. If an electably viable candidate other than Donald Trump were running, I’d probably vote for that candidate. However, such is not the case. And as bad as Donald Trump is (and in many ways I think he is bad), he’s a whole lot better than Shrillary–you might even say he is God compared to Shrillary. Since I know so little about Dennis Jensen and his political opponent(s), I’d be speaking out of turn to recommend how Australians vote. I just thought I’d voice one American’s thoughts on a similar situation.

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  • #
    Gentle Man

    Dr Dennis Jensen M.P. … an Abbott back stabber then shafted by Turnbull

    He is asking for a second chance as an independent ? .. admits he made a mistake ?

    Hmmmmmm … well the man showed very poor judgement once who’s to say he can think with a clear mind now ?

    As a Delcon .. I can be “forward thinking” and I think that he would buckle again under pressure .. can’t trust him especially a political animal who has changed sides before

    Need read an apology to us about Abbott … loyalty ?

    Sorry .. no understanding or forgiveness from me … he made his choice … live with it !

    20

  • #
    pat

    all those subsidies can’t buy perfection:

    30 Jun: Tesla Motors: A Tragic Loss
    by The Tesla Team
    We learned yesterday evening that NHTSA is opening a preliminary evaluation into the performance of Autopilot during a recent fatal crash that occurred in a Model S. This is the first known fatality in just over 130 million miles where Autopilot was activated…
    What we know is that the vehicle was on a divided highway with Autopilot engaged when a tractor trailer drove across the highway perpendicular to the Model S. Neither Autopilot nor the driver noticed the white side of the tractor trailer against a brightly lit sky, so the brake was not applied…
    It is important to note that Tesla disables Autopilot by default and requires explicit acknowledgement that the system is new technology and still in a public beta phase before it can be enabled. When drivers activate Autopilot, the acknowledgment box explains, among other things, that Autopilot “is an assist feature that requires you to keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times,” and that “you need to maintain control and responsibility for your vehicle” while using it…
    ***Autopilot is getting better all the time, but it is not perfect and still requires the driver to remain alert…
    https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss

    30 Jun: CNN: Tesla’s autopilot probed by government after fatal crash kills driver
    by Matt McFarland
    “Autopilot is getting better all the time, but it is not perfect and still requires the driver to remain alert,” Tesla said in the statement…
    If Tesla’s autopilot determines it can no longer safely drive, a chime and visual alert signals to drivers they should resume operation of the car. A recent Stanford study found that a two-second warning — which exceeds the time Tesla drivers are sure to receive — was not enough time to count on a driver to safely retake control of a vehicle that had been driving autonomously.
    Tesla’s cars are built with an auto-braking system, however it is not foolproof and did not activate in this crash.
    http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/30/technology/tesla-autopilot-death/

    as we all know, computers are perfect!

    19 Mar: LA Times: Jerry Hirsch: Elon Musk: Model S not a car but a ‘sophisticated computer on wheels’
    “We really designed the Model S to be a very sophisticated computer on wheels,” Musk said Thursday, while announcing software updates for his Model S. “Tesla is a software company as much as it is a hardware company. A huge part of what Tesla is, is a Silicon Valley software company. We view this the same as updating your phone or your laptop.”…
    Consumer Watchdog said it was primarily targeting Google’s driverless car technology, which includes car-like transport pods that don’t include steering wheels or controls that would allow a human to take control of the vehicles. But the group also mentioned a host of safety concerns.
    It said that heavy rain and snow could interfere with the sensors that govern the autopilot function. It questioned whether the sensors would be able to correctly read hand signals given by the human driver of another vehicle, or a policeman using only hand signals to direct traffic.
    “It is possible, perhaps even likely, that the technology needed to manufacture vehicles that operate ‘autonomously’ with 100% safety will eventually be perfected,” the group said. “In the meantime, under any realistic scenario for the near or even distant future, human drivers will be responsible for maintaining control of their vehicle in order to prevent an accident.”
    http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-musk-computer-on-wheels-20150319-story.html

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    • #
      Another Ian

      Pat

      re no driver controls

      Didn’t the Apollo astronauts fight that?

      10

      • #

        Shuttle pilots.

        2 kilobits isn’t enough space for “AI” to pilot the LEM. Remember, they had to keep manually keying in programs and e.g. “rebooting” the navigation system and subsequently ignored the “overflows” that resulted from too much data from the landing RADAR.

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    Nezysquared

    Sorry Jo but you’re wrong. Dennis played politics and helped (one might say initiated) the efforts to remove a first term sitting prime minister. I do not believe he can be trusted with anything let alone the wishes of a conservative electorate. Trust is hard won, easily lost and almost always irrecoverable. I cannot in all conscience vote Liberal whilst Turnbull leads the party. Chances are I will draw naughty pictures on the green slip and put my 12 numbers below the line on the white one – with Liberal not even getting a mention. That, after 40 years of voting conservative and liberal in the UK and here….

    60

  • #
    pat

    my response to Soros’s speech in the European Parliament:

    written by an anti-BREXIT, anti-UKIP, anti-Trump guy:

    30 Jun: The Conversation: Referendum petition hack shows even democracy can be trolled
    by William David Watkin, Professor of Contemporary Philosophy and Literature, Brunel University London
    According to former Tory MP Louise Mensch the culprits of this fraud were not fervent tech-savvy Remainers pushing the limits of democratic legality, but a murky group of malcontents from the website 4chan. 4chan has around 22m users a month generating anarchic, tasteless, witty and at times poisonous comment. While many internet memes such as lolcat and rickrolling were created by the 4chan community, there is also a well-documented dark side – such as the theft and spread of intimate photos of celebrities. Hacking this petition marks a worrying trend, moving from targeting individuals to attempting to influence politics…
    This still doesn’t quite explain why 4chan users want to undermine democracy. Perhaps the answer lies in the site’s forum that goes under the innocuous name of /b/. Demos think-tank researcher, Jamie Bartlett, identifies /b/ as part of the “dark net”, used as a base for the sort of extreme, aggressive trolling they call a “life ruin”. Life ruining is trolling whose intensity and technical ingenuity can all but destroy the life of the person targeted. Although /b/ makes up only a small proportion of 4chan activity, it is not unrepresentative of the sort of cruelty that takes place. So it was perhaps inevitable before those with such attitudes would find common cause with those with more nefarious political agendas…
    In comparison, the trolling of democracy in the form of hacking the referendum petition is little more than just a prank…
    While the fraudulent signatures on the petition are relatively few in number their presence is noxious: those 77,000 spammed signatories delegitimise the power of the 4m who have signed, ***prompting us to question the legitimacy of the rest…
    http://theconversation.com/referendum-petition-hack-shows-even-democracy-can-be-trolled-61862

    ***prompting us to question the legitimacy of the rest. indeed.

    30 Jun: UK Express: Greg Heffer: Spain and France KILL OFF Nicola Sturgeon’s hopes of joining the EU in brutal humiliation
    NICOLA STURGEON’s bid to keep Scotland in the EU ended in humiliation today after European leaders told the Scottish First Minister they will not cut her a special deal.
    Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy said Ms Sturgeon’s Scottish Government is not authorised to barter with other EU member states…
    Despite meeting European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker, European Parliament president Martin Schulz and leading MEPs today, the First Minister was pointedly snubbed by European Council president Donald Tusk…
    French president Francois Hollande backed up his Spanish counterpart, insisting exit talks will only be held with the UK Government and not the Holyrood administration.
    He said: “The negotiations will be conducted with the UK, not with a part of the UK.”…
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684593/Brexit-Nicola-Sturgeon-keep-Scotland-in-EU-France-Spain

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    pat

    29 Jun: WaPo: Dan Zak: Baby boomers are the zombie invasion we’ve feared
    It’s like the last twist in a horror movie. You think the baby boomers are dead, or at least easing into retirement, and then they thrust their claw up from the dirt, or lunge from the bathtub with a knife. Or take over a presidential election. Or decide to “liberate” your country from an economic partnership that is imperfect but deeply popular among younger generations whose vision is more kaleidoscopic than the color scheme of a national flag.
    “YOU STOLE OUR FUTURE FROM US,” said a blue banner hoisted by two young women in front of Big Ben after the United Kingdom voted to “Brexit” the European Union last week.
    The “YOU,” of course, are the olds. The pensioners and soon-to-be pensioners. Voter turnout among Brits over 55 years old was 82 percent, according to the BBC. Among Brits under 34, it was 47 percent. If at least 65 percent of British millennials had turned out, the outcome would probably have been different…
    Millennials vs. baby boomers! The war has been ongoing stateside since at least 2008, when the olds inflicted the Great Recession on the youths. Now, in the form of either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump, the boomers want another eight years in the White House they’ve held for a quarter century…
    “To other generations, Baby Boomers have become a plague on the rest of the country,” wrote The Post’s Dan Balz in April 1992, as Bill was fighting Jerry Brown for the Democratic nomination…
    Our elders have broken the tradition of being good ancestors. According to them, they have left us worse off: unable to afford college or a house, hitched to rising national debt and ***global temperatures, forced to create movements to convince them that our lives matter…
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2016/06/29/baby-boomers-are-the-zombie-invasion-weve-feared/?wpisrc=nl_az_most

    27 Jun: UK Independent: Anna Rhodes: Young people – if you’re so upset by the outcome of the EU referendum, then why didn’t you get out and vote?
    It has been estimated that only 36 per cent of people in the 18 – 24 year old category voted in the EU referendum. 64 per cent of young people did not bother to take themselves down to the polling station and place their vote
    It has been estimated that if 16-17 year olds had been able to vote, they would have voted 82 per cent for Remain. People have bemoaned that 16 and 17 year olds should have been given the vote – perhaps they should have, to make up for the fact that the 18 – 24 year olds couldn’t be bothered…
    The government even extended the voting deadline so that the young could register themselves at the last second because three months wasn’t a long enough time period to fill in a five minute form online…
    These statistics and voting figures need to be taken on board by the government, and changes need to be made for the next election. Either a digital system needs to be put in place, so that there are more ways for the young to vote, seeing as walking five minutes from your house to a polling station and drawing a cross in a box is too difficult, or we need to introduce an Australian style voting system, so that those who do not vote are fined…
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-referendum-brexit-young-people-upset-by-the-outcome-of-the-eu-referendum-why-didnt-you-vote-a7105396.html

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    pat

    1 Jul: WaPo: Simon Denyer: Richest nations fail to agree on deadline to phase out fossil fuel subsidies
    BEIJING — Energy ministers from the world’s major economies have failed to reach agreement on a deadline to phase out hundreds of billions of dollars in government subsidies for fossil fuels — subsidies that campaigners say are helping to propel the globe towards potentially devastating climate change.
    Ministers from the Group of 20 major economies met in Beijing on Wednesday and Thursday, but failed to reach agreement on a deadline, despite Chinese and American efforts and a joint appeal from 200 non-governmental organizations…
    “The communique repeats the importance of moving towards a subsidy reduction,” U.S. Energy Secretary Ernesto Moniz told reporters in Beijing. “But within the G20 there are different views on how fast and how aggressive on can be on that.”…
    But he played down expectations that a firm date for eliminating subsidies could be agreed.
    “We think the middle of the next decade would be a good time, but it’s not going to be one magic date for everybody.”
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/richest-nations-fail-to-agree-on-deadline-to-phase-out-fossil-fuel-subsidies/2016/07/01/7db563fb-42f0-46c8-bea4-2fcfc0f48c69_story.html

    28 Jun: Nature: UK scientists in limbo after Brexit shock
    Researchers organize to lobby for science as country prepares for life outside the EU.
    No one is sure how ‘Brexit’ will affect science, but many researchers are worried about long-lasting damage. Beyond the immediate economic impacts and the potential loss of EU funding — which currently supplies some 16% of UK university research money — scientists fear a loss of mobility between the country and the continent…
    Researchers are already mobilizing to lobby for the United Kingdom to remain a participant in EU science programmes, and for domestic funding to make up any shortfalls. “We need some kind of rapid monitoring to catch fallout problems early and implement remedial measures,” says Mike Galsworthy, who led the Scientists for EU campaign…
    Most academic groups had lobbied for the United Kingdom to remain in the EU…
    James Wilsdon, a science-policy researcher at the University of Sheffield, UK, says that beyond the questions about continued access to EU funding and policy, there is a more fundamental issue that UK researchers must come to grips with: the fact that most academic experts, research lobby groups and other experts came out in favour of staying in the EU and were ignored by the public.
    “Here you have such a major question around which there was such a torrent of solid analysis and empirical evidence, and we’ve had a rejection of that by 52% of the public,” he says. “That needs to provoke some serious soul searching and reflection.”
    http://www.nature.com/news/uk-scientists-in-limbo-after-brexit-shock-1.20178

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    Peter C

    Probably every one has made up their minds by now.

    But for those that have not my I commend this political quiz published by the Liberal Democrats.
    http://www.ldp.org.au/quiz/

    I just did the quiz again. My stance has changed a bit since the last time that I did it. Now I have to put LDP much higher on my senate vote! Single issues still take priority in some areas.

    10

  • #
    ScotstsmaninUtah

    Good luck and best wishes to fellow skeptics in the coming Australian elections.

    20

  • #
    Lord Jim

    A vote against Abbott /in the week of a by-election/ (just in case his numbers pick up), plus to give Turnbull a shot at the the Paris CAGW treaty.

    00

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    sophocles

    Good luck for your elections.

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    GregJ

    As far as I am concerned, D Jensen’s conduct in voting for Turnbull over Abbott demonstrated that he is lacking in principles and willing to allow himself to be compromised on core values for the sake of his own personal advancement.

    How could anyone trust a vote to someone like this?

    The fact that he was dumped by Turnbull anyway seems to me to be a sort of poetic justice, and a very just reward for Dr Jensen’s treachery.

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      Greg, Jensen has always spoken his mind, regardless of the cost, when it comes to policy he has principles and he stuck to them. The polls and ABC meat-grinder ultimately tricked so many in the Liberal Party. You could question his naivety, or connection to the public, but not that he lacked principles.

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