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Delcons: Might be a million votes that don’t matter

There is a voting block in Australia that is ignored and disorganised, but ready to be galvanized. It’s part of a worldwide phenomenon. Readers who havent read the first post on the Delcons  phenomenon ought start there.

An election is likely to be called any day. There are 15 million voters enrolled in Australia. If  4% of Liberal-Nat voters are Delcons, that’s about 2% of the total voter pool or 300,000 people who don’t matter. And that’s a conservative, pardon the pun, estimate. Another 10% of Liberal voters said they are “a little less likely” to  vote for the Liberal Party at the next election. These voters are not lost from the leftie end of the Liberal Party fan club. Potentially there are another 750,000 who could be convinced to instead vote National, ALA, Lib Dem, Family First or some other option should it appear. All up, these 14% of Lib voters have a million votes and are the most passionate sixth of Liberal supporters.

What could possibly go wrong?

Picture 300,000 less Liberal donors, volunteers, scrutineers, and people to hand out how-to-vote cards at 7,000 polling booths on July 2nd. Imagine 300,000 fewer website commenters willing to defend Liberal policy, and who can explain why punters should vote Liberal at BBQ’s. And if you can explain why a Liberal supporter should vote Liberal, a lot of people want to hear that. Speak up. :- )

Sinclair Davidson’s “Not even 14%” estimate is that 14% of Liberal voters is only 6.4% of total voters. “Only”.

That 14% of people who vote Liberal or National. According to the same Essential Media report at the last election 45.6% voted Liberal or National, so the number should be 0.14*0.456 = 6.4%.

I just wonder if the 6.4% ever reflect on David Cameron’s victory in the last UK election?

The UK “Delcon” experience is very different — they have first-past-the-post voting. The centrist sell-out Cameron even shifted to the  right before the election, to stem the losses to UKIP. Despite both of those factors, Cameron still lost 3.8 million voters to UKIP in a land where a UKIP vote was high risk: many voters were afraid a vote for UKIP might split the conservative side and elect Labor. (As an aside, because of the first-past-the-post system, UKIP won only 2 seats and came second in 118 seats — and there are serious calls for UK voting reform. At the same election, the UK Labor Party got 9 million votes.) But that’s the UK. Here, the voters can fine tune the degree of pain and the message they want to send due to preferential voting. Cameron’s remarkable win in the UK was partly thanks to Nigel Farage and UKIP resetting all the bounds of the debate, and partly thanks to a silly voting system.

But with the Libs scoring a big 49% against Labors 51% (or in a different poll 48 to Labor’s 52) I guess they don’t have to worry about that 2% right?

We haven’t even talked about the 35% of the “Vote other” component (which is 12% of all voters) — add another 4% to the tally?

The Liberal Party is a ghost train

Some people think the Delcon phenomenon is only about revenge, and is purely an Abbott-Turnbull coup thing. They miss the point. It’s about policy, like a rerun of November 2009.

These 300,000 were the ones who wrote letters and emails and swamped the party when Turnbull demanded the Libs support the K-Rudd emissions trading scheme. They threw Turnbull out then for the unelectable Tony Abbott, who went on and got elected in one of the largest wins in Australian politics.  The Delcons don’t want to elect Turnbull now any more than they did then.

Remember too, that Turnbull could have taken a lot of the fire out of the Delcon / Defcon  movement at little cost. He could have done things like getting rid of 18C, stopping subsidies to renewables, fixing up or selling the ABC and generally doing less to change the weather — they are “free” budget-wise. The cost with these is to face down the namecalling bullies. In 2009 Turnbull fell on his sword over emissions trading. Nothing has changed.

Defcons – a worldwide phenomenon

New parties are hard to form, but such is the demand that throughout the western world new parties are starting up and taking off, radically changing the voting landscape. It’s not just UKIP. In the US the Republican establishment is now threatened, and dominated by Tea Party types, like Trump and Cruz. In Germany, the AfD is the third most popular party, already represented in 8 of 16 German States and hoping to win majorities in 18 months time.  In the Netherlands, Gert Wilders and the Freedom Party leads the opinion polls, and he could easily be the next Prime Minister there. (He came to Australia to launch the ALA last October, and is so “dangerous” on antipodean soil that they were not even able to find an indoor venue where he would be able to speak without wind, weather and rude collectivist hecklers! Really?)

So what’s the Australian plan?  Who will harness this energy, frustration and votes?

What choice do the frustrated Defcons have? I laid out a possible Defcon strategic voting strategy, [lose the House, win the Senate, support minor parties and good Libs] and waited for the die-hard Liberal fans to explain how it was wrong and explain why people should still vote for a Turnbull government. Instead hundreds of commenters debated how to vote, but hardly any suggested Defcons put the Libs first on the ticket. The debate was about whether to go mass informal, or vote Labor. (“Vote Labor” means putting Labor third last on the ticket instead of second last. That’s the “nuclear” option with short term pain, but hopefully a longer term reward.) In the long run the Defcons need to either to set up a new party, or join a preexisting one and clean up present Partys through pre-selection. Perhaps tricky preferences are not the solution to a problem that has been years in the making?

star comment[UPDATE: A recap of the first Delcon post -- is it better to have a fake conservative government or a good conservative opposition? It's not productive to "blow up" a party out of spite, but if the Liberal base will vote Liberal no matter what the policy or principle, then it is utterly inevitable that the Liberals will move centre left and ignore the centre right. The current situation is not just bad for Liberals, it's bad for both sides. It takes a stronger Liberal Party to bring out higher standards in the Labor Party too. Right now, both sides think they can control the weather, and are switching leaders like last weeks underwear.]

Paul Zanetti spots the political movement shifting through the web but unnoticed by the media:

Has anyone else noticed there’s a political movement underway in Australia that much of the media isn’t quite plugged into yet?

In the reader comments section of every news site, every blog, every social media post after every terror attack, every Delcon opinion post, Turnbull poll piece, Shorten policy announcement, mosque story and debt and deficit update you’ll pick up the mood swing.

“I’ve had enough of the Libs, I’m voting ALA.”

“I’ve been a Liberal Party member and volunteer all my life. No more. It’s ALA for me.”

And on and on it goes. Every day. White. Hot. Anger.

Insiders within the ALA hierarchy tell me they will likely have 10 Senate candidates for the July 2 election, and are presently screening multiple candidates for the lower house.Queensland is most advanced in the lower house pre-selection process, with an army of volunteers working on the ground in branches throughout the state.
As the Liberal Party lurches further to the left ALA is positioning itself as the alternative conservative party. They will likely be to the Liberals what the Greens are to Labor. Many experienced, valuable volunteers have jumped ship from the National and Liberal parties.

The Liberal Democrats predict things could go pretty well for them.

Many of the centre right votes will be split, as many minor parties contest the Senate in a double dissolution. But as David Leyonhjelm argues, the Lib Dems cover most of the hot topics. In this case, it’s all about preference flows:

This analysis fills the Liberal Democrats with confidence. Each of our policies – from cutting income tax to defending the rights of social pariahs like smokers and sporting shooters – attracts a niche of supporters who, sadly, have nowhere else to turn. Our vote isn’t split, and could be enough to get us over the line in each State at a double dissolution.

The 53 Liberals who turfed out Abbott are being lined up to be targeted in a strategic voting campaign by active, passionate people with energy. So far Turnbull doesn’t even acknowledge the Defcon phenomenon, let alone make concessions like David Cameron did. And without the risks of the “first past the post” system, Turnbull is going to have to offer a lot more than Cameron did. With his history it may already be beyond the point where Turnbull can offer anything the Defcons would buy.

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Delcons: Might be a million votes that don't matter, 9.2 out of 10 based on 80 ratings

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225 comments to Delcons: Might be a million votes that don’t matter

  • #
    Sceptical Sam

    I have held the view that malcolm Turnbull’s judgement is right off ever since he got snookered on “Utegate”. Everything from there has just confirmed that view.

    His ignoring of the conservative element and his failure to repeal 18C, and his failure to rule out a Carbon tax or ETS in any shape or form just makes his task so much harder.

    For mine the Nationals in the Senate are the way to go with a vote for an strong conservative independent in the Housse of Reps (anyone other than Julie Bishop).

    330

    • #
      Dennis

      Former Union Labor PM Keating advised PM Rudd when Opposition Leader Turnbull replaced Doctor Brendan Nelson that Turnbull lacks judgement.

      Keating said that Turnbull is intelligent and fearless, but has no judgement.

      200

      • #

        Turnbull doesn’t lack judgement; however, he isn’t a conservative, so everything Turnbull says and does is predicated on that non-conservative ideology, whatever that may be. He also totally lacks loyalty, to anyone but himself, a reflection of his corporate background. Both aspects are anathema to true conservatives.

        But more importantly, Turnbull is completely out of his depth as a politician and especially as a Prime Minister. The old ‘Peter Principle’ comes to mind and Turnbull has been well and truly elevated above his capability and capacity. Barack Obama comes to mind.

        I’m so glad that I no longer live in Melbourne and can at least vote National, because I would never vote Liberal under a government led by Turnbull. And even then I’m on the fence.

        400

        • #
          ivan

          There is one thing he is loyal to – Goldman Sachs head office.

          130

        • #
          Angry

          The REAL malcom TURNCOAT turnBULL………..

          Why Malcolm Turnbull is a Dangerous Leftist Ideologue :-

          http://stopturnbull.com/

          The Enemy of conservatives!!

          90

        • #
          Just Thinkin'

          I got told a few years ago that a person rises to
          “His level of incompetency”.

          Mal reached his in his PREVIOUS position as Communications
          Minister.

          Unfortunately, the scaredy cats couldn’t see it.

          And now WE suffer.

          50

          • #
            Angry

            Malcom is truely the Fence post turtle………

            While stitching a cut on the hand of a 75-year old farmer whose hand was caught in a gate while working cattle, the doctor struck up a conversation with the old man. Eventually the topic got around to Malcom Turnbull the Prime minister, The old farmer said, “Well, ya know, Turnbull is a fence post turtle.” Not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked him what a fence post turtle was. The old farmer said, “When you’re driving down a country road and you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that’s a fence post turtle .You know he didn’t get up there by himself, he doesn’t belong up there, he doesn’t know what to do while he is up there, and you just wonder what kind of dopey person put him up there to begin with.”

            190

        • #

          And Turnbull now says this: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/income-inequality-explains-the-rise-of-donald-trump-says-malcolm-turnbull-20160504-gomn5q.html

          “Income equality is a big issue in the United States, we have much more equality in incomes in Australia because we have a much better targeted social welfare system.”

          Turnbull is suggesting that those on social welfare payments are now considered to be earning an income? Turnbull is suggesting that those on social welfare payments are employed? Our public service has now increased by what, one million+?

          Turnbull is completely out of his depth as a politician and especially as a Prime Minister.

          50

    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      Goodness me! Hopeless.

      I’ve just this minute finished watching Barnaby Joyce’s interview with Leigh Sales on your ABC.

      He had two chances to bring into the conversation/interview the question of the National Party’s position. The first one related to the question on tax breaks for those not getting the benefit of the shift to $87,000 cut-off. He failed to make the point that the compensation provided to off-set the Labor Party’s Carbon Tax has not been removed. Those people who received the compensation are significantly better off than the rest as a result.

      Secondly, in the follow-up question, he had a very good opportunity to make the point that the National Party does not support the re-introduction of a Carbon tax or an ETS in any shape or form. He missed it.

      Who the devil is advising Barnaby?

      210

      • #
        Ted O'Brien.

        Sam and all. You almost can’t vote National except in WA, so forget that. The Nationals run on a unified ticket with the Liberals.

        Not only that, but the Nats do not seek to broaden their base by nominating in new seats. Liberal seats because they have an agreement, other seats because they are too dopey.

        And who is advising Barnaby? He is stuck with that system. Only in the back rooms of parliament does he have any clout, and if TdeF’s surmising comes to pass, that may be in jeopardy too.

        The only redeeming feature is that whereas this system stifles the Nationals in the House of Reps, it ties the Liberals down to the Nats in the senate.

        61

        • #

          If the ALA field candidates in the Lower House, I know where my vote is going. The Upper House is a given.

          100

          • #
            gigdiary

            The ALA have just announced their first House of Reps candidate. They also have, at last count, seven Senate candidates. It’s looking very promising, although I’m still watching the other Senate conservative candidates.

            120

            • #
              Ozwitch

              The major stumbling block for me is the ALA Health policy. It’s almost as if it were written by a totally different party. Just about everything else I can broadly support, but the health policy is so completely opposite to the values expressed by the rest of the party platform it has me mystified.
              I can hold my nose and vote for Daniel Jones, but it’s a weird sour note.

              00

              • #
                Retired Now

                I felt the same thing when I read it some time back. But I decided other aspects were more important in the short term and I’ve got involved with them despite it. Must check it again to work out what I didn’t like.

                10

        • #
          Sceptical Sam

          The Nationals run on a unified ticket with the Liberals.

          However, they currently have a signed agreement with the Liberals (renewed when Malcolm’s coup succeeded) that rules out the introduction of a Carbon tax or an ETS.

          What I’d like to see from the Nationals is a statement to the effect that should they enter into any Coalition with the Liberals again they will require the same undertaking from Turnbull or his successor. That is no Carbon tax and no ETS.

          Surely that’s not too hard, is it?

          90

          • #
            Angry

            Where is the text of the agreement between the Nationals & the Liberals.
            The public should be able to access this to ensure that the Nationals are actually holding TURNCOAT TURNBULL to account.
            Why is it top secret?

            40

            • #
              el gordo

              ‘Why is it top secret?’

              Because the Nats already have their fingers in the pie and they would rather not talk about climate change.

              10

              • #
                pattoh

                Wrote to Barnaby over Carbon Farming.

                His reply was enough to make me think twice about supporting my local Nat.

                70

              • #
                el gordo

                In my electorate John Cobb gave up his portfolio so that Barnaby could become Ag Minister when he entered the Reps. So naturally John has decided to retire at the next election.

                Andrew Gee has been nominated to pick up the baton for the Nats and he’s up against Jess Jennings, who has been roundly condemned for his Green views.

                The problem we now have is that the farmers and graziers have been corrupted by DAP, a huge barrel of money, which means they won’t have to put out their hand every time there is a drought or flood. Dignity at last for the new agrarian socialists.

                So this is the dilemma and I suspect realpolitik will rule in the end.

                30

      • #
        Angry

        Maybe he is being advised by Johnny Depp’s dogs Pistol and Boo????

        30

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      The definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over and expecting something to change.

      “Voting” in Australia is one such thing – as I have harped on about for some time, both parties are owned by globalists, which is why no matter who you vote for , you get teh same leftist agenda.

      Now, assuming anyone is actually paying attention to this realpolitik reality, what do you think will happen at the next “election”?

      There are no real alternatives unless an UKIP party appears in Australia – the globalists have by design a stranglehold 2 party ( really one party ) system to make sure people have no choice but to always get their agenda while feeling they have made a “difference”. Why do you think Hanson was shut down so roughly – she was a real direct threat to the “system” and control of the population. People seriously need to start thinkinghow these people view the world – globalists consider us useless drone who need to be told how to live and how to behave and consider us as serfs and animals of burden – losse that perspective and you loose touch with reality.

      Now while some people might consider my views “heretical”, if you observe what happens its the only logical answer. Happy to debate this….

      Until a viable alternative turns up in Australia, nothing will chnage – this is deliberate so the globalists can push forward their socialist agenda, and why no matter who yo “vote” for , you get the same result.

      Alea Iacta Est

      QED.

      70

      • #
        clive

        Steve,the only way to change the system,is stop voting for these”Do Nothing,Career Politicians” We can control who gets in and with the help of ALA,One nation and some of the Independents,we can kick the Pollies butts.

        60

    • #
      John Michelmore

      Sceptical, please think about the Nationals, their deal with the Liberal Party makes them basically useless as a party. they are hamstrung. Other than Johnny Depps dogs just list what Joyce has achieved. We have a plethora of Senate recommendations ,even for inquires initiated by Joyce, What has he done with them, thr answer is zero!!

      50

  • #
    TimiBoy

    I used to hand out cards for the Libs in Federal and State elections in Brisbane. May still do so in State, but NOT Fed. USED to be a Liberal Party Member, and nearly (very very nearly!) ran for State Parliament the year Campbell got in. In the end I decided there wasn’t enough money in it and I wasn’t going to sacrifice squat for idiot voters. I’m chummy with my local Fed Member (or maybe used to be…) Andrew Laming. He shoved Abbott under a bus, and has managed to confuse me on a lot of issues.

    As soon as I finish typing this I will become a financial member of ALA.

    350

    • #

      It’s people like you and TonyH below that show how much grassroots support the Libs have lost.

      Standard pollsters will not know what happened if the grassroots suddenly supports a different party. They have no way to measure that energy.

      A few thousand very active people could galvanize the million…

      340

      • #
        ianl8888

        They have no way to measure that energy

        Actually agree with you here (probably the 1st time)

        My reason is that the dumbkopf pollsters completely missed the grassroots move to Palmer’s party. That this party didn’t last is irrelevant – both the Carbon and Mining taxes were removed (sad about 18C).

        So a grassroots shift to anywhere new will beat the dumbkopfs again.

        100

      • #
        Ted O'Brien.

        Jo. Standard pollsters may not know what will happen if the grassroots suddenly support a new party, but I do. The ALP/Greens will win the election.

        I used to hand out cards for the Nationals. But in the early 90s I wrote to them telling them that I wsouldn’t renew because as far as I could see we would get no sense out of them until the head office was as broke as the constituency. Not until Barnaby Joyce and Fiona Nash and a few others arrived did the Nats begin to wake up. Without that new blood they would have been obliterated in the 2010 election.

        Meanwhile, the Delcons are just that. Delusional conservatives. They are dreaming of a choice we don’t have.

        29

        • #
          gigdiary

          Ted, please read TdeF’s comments on the previous political thread. It will help you to see the bigger picture. Turnbull doesn’t need the Nats, unfortunately.

          50

          • #
            Ted O'Brien.

            gigdiary.

            I have read that and referred to it at #1.2.1. on this thread. However, how many Liberals would never countenance governing with the Greens? Hopefully quite a few, though I wouldn’t like to have my life depending on it.

            10

        • #
          clive

          Ted,with an attitude like that,you have shown why we are in this mess.

          30

          • #
            Ted O'Brien.

            Are you clive Palmer? If so, you would’ve noticed that the new party in the last election took instruction from Al Gore before stymying the spending cuts that were promised. Certainly not the intention of those voters who gave Tony Abbott a “landslide”.

            20

      • #
        PeterPetrum

        Jo, I have never joined a political party in my 75 year life, but I am now a proud member of the ALA. Two Senate candidates in NSW get our 1 and 2 votes. Let us work for a strong ALA group in the Senate.

        50

    • #
      JohnM

      Vote ALA with the Coalition as second preference. If the Coalition gets into power on someone else’s preferences it’s a pretty strong message that conservative voters are unhappy with what the party has been doing.

      200

      • #
        PeterPetrum

        JohnM – agreed, ALA first but only the Libs on the ticket that voted for Tony Abbott. The message will be much stronger.

        50

    • #
      Dariusz

      Good on you TimiBoy.
      After being a lifelong supporter of Libs, I have gone to the ALA too. This was not easy for me as something momentous had to happen like the labor guy leading a Conservative party. Unfortunately this happened with know it all, do nothing with no communication skills champagne socialist. All of this has been mentioned before, but will never forget him call people like us ” Hitler appeasers”. Even this was not enough to change my vote.
      Just like Jo said, this is about policies and survival of this great country, not about revenge.

      210

  • #
    Graham Richards

    Turnbull was not elected by the electorate to start with. He has not won an election yet and as far as I’m concerned he, nor his local member will get my support t this election.

    350

    • #
      Dennis

      Obviously we vote for local electorate candidates but we also vote for the party they belong to and therefore for their leader.

      Malcolm Turnbull lectured Union Labor when they dumped PM Rudd in favour of Gillard, he said that it was not right to get rid of a first term leader. But later he did exactly the same to PM Abbott who had led the Coalition to effectively defeat Union Labor at the 2010 election forcing PM Gillard to form a minority alliance government to cling to power. And in 2013 Tony Abbott led the Coalition to an historic landslide defeat of Rudd Labor.

      Can anyone explain why, other than self interest?

      350

    • #
      Angry

      Malcolm and the Malcontents……

      Sounds like a great name for a band!

      31

  • #
    Dennis

    I will not penalise Liberal MPs who did not support the Turnbull-Bishop attack on PM Abbott but recommend that the Rebels be penalised.

    http://stopturnbull.com/what-can-we-do-a-conservative-electoral-strategy/

    200

    • #
      Hasbeen

      Our local Liberal member did not vote for Turnbull. It is a pity he must be punished for those that did.

      I & 6 other locals told him, 4 months ago that he would no longer get our vote, while he was in a party led by Turnbull. I recently told him that the number had grown to over 12 that I know of personally. He has not responded in any way, I guess he can’t.

      None of us are members of a party, we don’t hand out how to vote cards, except at council non party elections, & are part of the silent population. I wonder if people like us, not politically active, but life long concretive voters are going unnoticed in the anti Turnbull grouping.

      A few of us have decided to vote Labor in the reps, as we believe it is the only way to be sure of getting rid of Turnbull permanently. Being sure he is totally eliminated from the conservative parties is the most important result of this election.

      If elected in his own right he will be able to do all the things we know Labor want to do, with boats, carbon trading schemes & windmills. Jo’s plan of Labor in the house, & conservative in the senate is the best hope of minimising damage in the next 3 years.

      70

  • #
    Doubting Thomas

    Turnbull lost me with his arrogant triumphalism during the Spycatcher trial, lo these many long years ago. His behaviour during the lead up to the Republic Referendum confirmed to me that he was unfit for any leadership role. He has done nothing since to moderate my dislike. I am an Outraged Conservative who will put the Liberals last in the House of Reps while he is in Parliament.

    260

    • #
      JohnM

      Re your comment on the referendum, I think Turnbull wanted to be the first president of the Republic of Oz. I also think he wanted to be PM only because of the prestige of the job, god kows he’s made a dismal job of it.

      All hail Emperor Malcolm I.

      110

      • #
        Yonniestone

        They all want to have a go a at being the Oz republic El Presidente` without the approval of the people, this alone is why the system offered was rejected.

        We know what standard of leader this attracts, imagine an ongoing procession of Rudd, Gillard, Gough, Turnbull’s without any possibility of ever directly electing a Menzies.

        100

  • #
    Steve

    It will be hard for Turnbull to convince Delcons that he has changed while he gives interviews only on the ABC. I for one will never hear his “mea culpa” even if he has a road to Damascus moment.

    220

  • #
    Carl Chapman

    Turnbull said he can reach 800,000 people on Q&A. He can go on Q&A and ask for volunteers. If 5% of the audience support him, that’s 40,000 people to hand out how to vote cards. But maybe he’ll get a shock if he finds out that while they love him because he’s not a real conservative and because he opposed Abbott, they wouldn’t really help him or vote for him.

    350

    • #
      Dennis

      Again, he lacks judgement.

      220

    • #
      PeterPetrum

      Despite the claims of the ABC that about half the QnA audience is conservative, it is clear from the biased applause to anything said by the lefties against of any of the opposite leaning, that they are not. So no chance of getting any of this crowd to hand out how to vote cards for the Libs. Almost half of those who “prefer” Turnbull would never vote for him.

      40

  • #
    Dennis

    For me Labor is controlled and managed by the union movement. The Trade Union Royal Commission into the lack of trade union governance and the corruption that is widespread has referred well over one hundred serving and former unionists to law agencies. Bill Shorten gave evidence that revealed his union executive failings too. And how could anyone forget the Rudd-Gillard-Rudd years?

    After inheriting zero debt in 2007 from the Howard Coalition, a history of budgets in surplus and the last surplus $22 billion, a strong economy, billions of funds invested and much more (PM Howard observed correctly that Australians had never been better off) Union Labor used the GFC excuse to spend all of the $22 billion on economic stimulus and then borrowed and borrowed to spend/squander on political tricks aimed at propping them up for the 2010 election, noting that many of the seats they won in 2007 were marginal.

    Not content at having racked up over $400 billion of debt they created their 2013/14 Budget with many unfunded items like Gonski education grants and therefore under-estimated the budget deficit (they never produced a surplus in their six years in office) by over $25 billion. And having left no funds for the Abbott Coalition more borrowing was essential to fill the black holes, to make provisions to pay for Union Labor’s 2013/14 Budget. The budget crisis confirmed by private sector auditors was Union Labor responsibility. And they deliberately did what they could to handicap the incoming Abbott Government, but damaged the nation in the process.

    I am angry with both main alternatives for government but Union Labor are by far the most dangerous option.

    http://stopturnbull.com/what-can-we-do-a-conservative-electoral-strategy/

    220

    • #
      Lloydww

      I’m of the opinion that the conservative minded voters who turned away from Howard in 2007 are probably the same people who now back Turnbull. I have at least two real world examples against which I have promulgated this theory. Not a huge sample size, granted but it fits the psychology.

      The same mentality which can discard an otherwise perfectly good government in favour of a snake oil salesman would find ditching an unloved character like Abbott all too easy.

      The only other observation I’d like to make is that it’s all too late. I suspect it’s immaterial now whether Turnbull wins or loses.

      If he wins big he will be emboldened to lurch further left.
      If he wins by a narrow margin he’ll be paralysed and we drift for another 3 years and the direction will be generally left.
      If he loses Shorten will set out to create the Socialist Republic of Australia.

      No, we’re already well past the S bend of economic oblivion and not only is there no plumber in sight, but a deadweight majority are enjoying the ride and crying out “Again, again!” Like demented 3 year olds.

      180

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        And your comment further bolsters my pointthat there is no real alternative to the contrived ( and tightly controlled ) 2 party system we have in this country.

        WHat you have basically said agrees with what I have said – no matter who you vote for in this 2 party system, you get socialism.

        Perhaps a voter strike would make more sense – without voting ( this time ) it removes any legitimacy they have. No vote, no right to govern.
        And you cop a $20 fine for not voting – big deal…perhaps if people didnt turn up to vote, ity would send a very loud signal that things need to change.

        If people keep turning up very single time to vote, like poor bahaviour of most kids, it will only encorage them….

        Australia needs a Polish Soldarisnoc moment….

        31

        • #
          Lloydww

          I don’t agree with a voter strike. I was merely pointing out that with the current players a drift leftward is inevitable and that we’ll end up like Greece.

          The Greek debt experience should be a salutary lesson for all. For Australia, we need to be mindful that we are not part of an EU. There will be nobody who will come to bail us out. I therefore suspect we will arrive at a crisis point far sooner than did the Greeks. That’s why I say it’s probably already too late.

          In many ways Abbott was our last best hope. He may yet lead Australia out of the economic doldrums. The non Labor/Green side of politics needs a reset. That cannot happen with Turnbull leading.

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            Wayne P

            Agree, and for those who say that we are not Greece. My reply is Greece was once where we are now & they kept going, so look what we are heading for!

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      JohnM

      Lloydww, the public was pressured into not liking Abbott by the mainstream media. The media will claim that this isn’t so but where else do people get their information from but the media.

      More recently the Australia media has force-fed us with negative opinions of Trump and it’s only in the last week or two that neutral or slightly positive opinions have appeared, but too late.

      Also in the last few days the media said that Shorten wanted to run Australia like a union and pushed a very negative opinion. In fact he said no such thing as you’ll see if you manage to dig out the transcript but hey, you don’t expect accurate reporting in Australia do you?

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        Lloydww

        JohnM you get no argument from me. The mainstream media has undeniably influenced public opinion. Abbott was targeted from the moment he entered Parliament and they continue to bucket him ferociously to this day.

        I watched Abbott for years and I really like the guy. When Howard lost office I thought Abbott would make a great PM. He was certainly a better Opposition Leader than Nelson or Turnbull.

        In contrast I also watched Gillard and Rudd. Re Rudd, it was very obvious the man was a BSA. Gillard scared me more than Rudd. She was the architect of Medicare Gold but it was the way she went about selling the proposal which worried me. I feared she’d do enormous damage if she ever got into power.

        So, it was surprising that the media did not scrutinise the Rudd team before the 2007 election. I have since come to the conclusion that the media largely gave Rudd a free pass because it feared a repeat of the Latham debacle.

        The bottom line is that people have to find out the truth for themselves by searching out those journos who are more or less balanced. For me, that’s Bolt, Devine, Ackerman, Thomas, Uhlmann, JoNova among others. I trust the opinions of people such as McCrann, Sheridan, Henderson, Switzer, Ergas, Collier.

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          Ted O'Brien.

          Kevin Rudd was never one of the ALP in crowd except in Queensland. In the run up to the 2007 election the usual suspects were keeping a low profile, because they could seethe was winning the election for them single handedly. But his background told me that as far as those usual suspects were concerned Kevin Rudd’s use by date was the day after the election.

          However he maintained an electoral popularity rating too high to allow them to dump him. First they had to trash him, and they did, kidding him up a tree to do the right thing with the ETS, and then chopping him down for it.

          As for the vilification of Tony Abbott. That was driven by hard Marxists who knew he had their measure, backed up by journalists who had been indoctrinated in Marx at their academies.

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          Angry

          The LAMESTREAM MEDIA……catering to the lowest IQ in society…

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          Annie

          I don’t trust Uhlmann.

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        • #
          Angry

          Is that Gee Aye with the Red Thumb.

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          • #

            not me. I am a fan. Since the mods etc can check the ID of the thumber you can always ask them if it is me.

            Just for everyone’s interest, I rarely thumb one way or the other.

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              James Bradley

              I always give you a green thumb, leaf… positive reinforcement is just like CO2.

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            Greg Cavanagh

            Gee Aye has been most polite this year. It’s like he’s turned a new leaf :)

            I think he’s starting to realise that CAGW was always a rubbish science.

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            • #

              a) What is your metric for politeness. I’d like to know how I’ve changed and who you are comparing me to.

              b) I’m against rubbish science and I rubbish those who proclaim things without understanding the science. Where have I given CAGW supportive statements?

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              • #
                James Bradley

                and there’s another for you.

                10

              • #
                Greg Cavanagh

                a) My metric is whether I find your statements rude. And this last year, I find most of your comments interesting or informative. Perhaps I’m just getting slacker.

                b) From what I’ve been seeing on Jo Nova and other blogs. There is plenty of very poor science out there. Far more than I ever expected.

                Anyway, I was giving you some support in the hope that Angry might accept it and not jump on your every comment. That gets old quick. Perhaps I should have been more forthright in my intentions. But there ya go…

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            Analitik

            The red thumbers don’t usually have the guts to comment. We may often disagree with Gee Aye but at least he posts comments stating his position and doesn’t just signal disapproval.

            We have to respect Gee Aye and the others (eg Silly Filly) in the minority posting here for being forthright even if we don’t have great regard for his/her opinion.

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            AndyG55

            I just add the green and red thumbs..

            Both are positives. :-)

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  • #
    Russell

    I fully agree with the above comments. I, unfortunately, can’t vote for ALA in the Senate because there’s no ALA candidate standing here in Tasmania – unless, of course, this situation changes before nominations close. I’m definitely going to put Colbeck last because he is one of Turnbull’s turncoats. Abetz gets my number 1 vote in the Senate.

    I’m also in what seems to be a safe Labor electorate (Franklin) for the lower house. I hope there will be National or other non-Liberal conservative candidates that I can preference ahead of Liberal or Labor there.

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      Robdel

      I am in exactly in the same position, having joined the ALA. thus I am very disappointed that we do not yet have any candidates for the senate in Tassie. The only thing I can do is to put Richard Colbeck last on my voting paper.

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      Rik

      Looks as though there will be an ALA candidate in Tassie for the election.

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    tom0mason

    Join The Zinc party —

    Galvanizing more voter!

    :)

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    A C, of Adelaide

    Quite correct Jo.

    The “Delcons” thing began long before Tony Abbott. Probably even before Sarah Palin and the Tea Party. Its just that no one has bothered to look it before.

    It represents an international reaction against established so-called democratic parties and so-called independent media all around the world with their bipartisan support for the Stupid and the comfortable, while ignoring the obvious and the worrying. Think UKIP, Marine Le Pen, Geert Wilders, Yes, even Trump if you like.

    But never Tony Abbott. He seeded the “delcons” here in Australia when he bottled on the ABC, Gillian Triggs, and Section 18C. Yes, he repealed the Carbon Tax, but didnt cut spending on Renewables. Yes he stopped the boats, but only increased direct channel immigration.
    It was Tony Abbott who started the “Delcon” rot. Turnbull just fired it up. There would have been a “delcon” movement even without Turnbull.

    If you worry about immigration, spending good money after bad on windmills, and borrowing money from the future to pay for the present while the Reserve Bank goes for broke on the interest rates – Then ask yourself what Xenophon and the Liberal Democrats and all those other minor party alternatives would do to the budget … and then vote for the ALA.

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      Graeme No.3

      AC:

      Would you consider voting for Bob Day in the Senate? I’ve never met him and know little of Family First but local Liberals still speak well of him**, and he seems to have been a reasonable Senator for SA.
      The other important thing is that his election would annoy Malcolm Turnbull, The Greens and Nick Xenophon who conspired to wipe out smaller parties.

      Just a thought.

      ** He was one of the front runners to replace Downer until Jamie Briggs was parachuted in.

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        ianl8888

        The problem with all these little “conservative” parties is their health policy.

        Essentially, they would like to destroy the “comunity rating” idea and push people into paying for their own treatment. Basically it means that as one gets older and requires treatment to stay alive, the cost will be sufficient to prevent them from being treated.

        As an older person who has remissioned cancer, and who has paid exorbitant medical insurance all his working life, I really resent the concept of removing ratings and telling older people “You are too old to live any more”

        You may think I’m exaggerating, but all you have to do to go to these little party websites and examine what they pitifully call their “policies”.

        You will get exactly the politicians you deserve unless mass informal voting occurs. Now let the sheeple bleat about the “horrible” choice they are required to make – while they follow the “rules”, nothing will change.

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      Angry

      “so-called democratic” is certainly accurate.

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    Analitik

    Whilst musing about Abbott’s overthrow by Turnbull, the thought came to me that the best solution would be to orchestrate another double-dissolution.

    The concept is quite straightforward.

    1. Vote conservative for the Senate – if the only choices are Liberals of the Turnbull faction, do it anyway
    2. Vote informal or Labor for the House of Representatives

    The aim is for Labor to get the outright win for Parliament but for the Coalition to have outright control of the Senate. It is crucial that The Greens nor independents hold the balance of power in either house so they can’t form deals to form government nor pass legislation.

    With the election loss, Turnbull would get turfed for not delivering with the obvious reason being his sell out to the center/left so a more conservative leader would have to be chosen by the remaining Liberals.

    The Coalition could then block supply, forcing us back to the polls with a conservatively led Coalition that is worth voting into governance.

    The dangers, of course, are if either house is held in balance by The Greens or independents, then either Turnbull could form a minority government (very bad) or Labor could pass legislation with deals via The Greens and independents (worst).

    Thoughts?

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    Tonyh

    Interesting stuff, I`ve handed out how to vote cards for the Libs for many years but have already notified them its not on this year. Their inability to listen to their grass roots and the knifing of Abbott in a Labor style coup (which I thought the conservatives were above) with Turncoat as replacement has me gobsmacked. I will support ALA in what ever capacity I can, Incidentally my local member Stuart Robert (Fadden) was one of Turncoats men which I shall not forget!

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    sillyfilly

    Delusional conservatives are an irrational body of shameless individuals.

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      Peter C

      Thanks Silly,

      I was going to comment on this;

      And if you can explain why a Liberal supporter should vote Liberal, a lot of people want to hear that. Speak up

      I think you have nailed it there.

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        Peter C

        My comment may seem a bit obscure. Maybe even I am not sure what I meant!

        If we were to change this to; if you can explain why a liberal should vote Liberal, a lot of people want to hear that. Speak up, where liberal means someone who values freedom for the individual, that would be close to my meaning. That might include a lot of Delcons.

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      AndyG55

      So, do you seriously believe in Shorten, or even De Natali.. even as they are.

      And you would vote for them even though you KNOW they would an absolute disaster for the country.

      And you call us delusional?

      Really ??

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      Yonniestone

      Delusional, Irrational, Shameless? shouldn’t you be commenting over on the Conversation?

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      Greg Cavanagh

      Our stance obviously confuses you. You don’t understand us at all.

      So instead of trying (hell, you’d rather slam your head in a door), you abuse us as compensation for your lack of understanding. Very Good SF. This is a demonstration of your skill in critical thinking. Thanks.

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    Ian

    What a sad piece from Jo Nova, whose views have come as a real shock, and from most of the commenters so far. Abbott ruined it for himself by making unnecessary promises on election eve 2013 and then breaking every one in the disastrous 2014 budget. He was warned in February his days as leader were numbered if he didm’t change and, if you recall, agreed he needed to, and would, change. He didn’t and he was deposed as he had been warned he would be. As for the ALA they’re the Tea Party of Australia with apple pie and motherhood policies without any substance. God help us if that mob get near the reins of power they make the current cross benchers appear political geniuses. Why not accept the LNP has moved on? Abbott won’t be returning as leader. By all means vote the government out but you will sow the wind and reap the whirlwind if you do. Do you really want Shorten and his free spending. pro-carbon tax, pro-climate change, pro-subsidised renewables, anti-fossel fuel government? Is that the price you’re willing to pay?

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      RB.

      Which bit about Turnbull will lead a free spending, pro-carbon tax, pro-climate change, pro-subsidised renewables, anti-fossel fuel government did you not get?

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        Ian

        The budget just handed down clearly refutes your “free spending” comment. What evidence do you have to support the rest?

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          Sceptical Sam

          Am I going to have to be the one that torpedoes Ian’s delusion?

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            Ian

            Apparently not. Could you not manage it after all?

            In a later post in response to this comment of mine, also in a later post commenting on the fatuous ALA site, , which was”Australians fought in alliance with like-minded people against the foes of Liberty and Western civilisation. Tell that to the opponents of the wars in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. Were the Vietnamese, Iraqis and Afghans foes of western civilisation?

            You wrote”You’re an expert on the Vietcong now as well? And the Communist North Vietnam invasion of the South? Along with it’s Soviet and PRC backing and support?

            The relevance of that diatribe to my comment is zero. It is also insulting. The protests against the wars in Vietnam came largely from Americans and Australians. Had you forgotten? Were you not in Australia when Whitlam withdrew Australian troops? I made no reference to the Vietcong per se and the Vietminh were certainly not foes of Western civilisation. Youut Iraquis? probably didn’t know the French colonised Vietnam. Similarly Iraquis and Afghans are not foes of Western civilisation.. The Taliban might be be but the conflicts now in Iraq are more based on religion than on anything else.

            It is unusual and disappointing to find comments such as yours on what, heretofore, has always been a very civilised and thoughtful forum for discussion

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      Graeme No.3

      My thoughts are close Ian, but consider what happens if Turnbull is returned with a solid majority. He will take that as endorsement of all his unannounced policies, and try to move the Liberal Party to the Left.

      On the other hand I was listening to Chris Bowen, the would be Treasurer, and am undecided as to whether he hasn’t the brains of a raspberry seed, or whether he has. Labor would be a disaster.

      The only hope appears to be Liberals back with a reduced (preferably much reduced) majority and rely on the Nationals to walk out of the Coalition and precipitate another election if Malcolm tries it on.

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      Popeye26

      Don’t get out much OR read much do you Ian! The ALA are exactly what this country needs in an effort to move away from the bigotry, handouts, socialism and unfettered spending that our children’s children (and their children) will have to pay back. Oh, and the “political correctness” that has infected Australia (and the world).

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    • #

      Ian the post is not about Abbott. It’s about policy, and to that end, I’ll quote with one change:

      “Do you really want Shorten Turnbull and his free spending. pro-carbon tax, pro-climate change, pro-subsidised renewables, anti-fossel fuel government?”

      I don’t want either man. I’m thinking about the long run. I’m open to be persuaded that in the long run we are better off voting for Turnbull and the party as it currently stands. So far the only one who has tried seriously to make that case was Steve Kates whom I respect very much. I linked to it and discussed it in the last Delcon post.

      As long as Turnbull runs the Libs there will be no major party for the conservative libertarian side of politics unless another one is started.

      If you have problems with the ALA policies, best set them out. If they are the Tea Party of Australia, that’s a plus. I’ve had enough of career politicians.

      The LNP has moved on, but into a zone where I no longer find much to support. If you find this post a shock, it will help if you read the last post on this. http://joannenova.com.au/2016/05/delcons-might-be-a-million-votes-that-dont-matter/trailing%20Labor%2048%20per%20cent%20to%2052.

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        ianl8888

        If you have problems with the ALA policies, best set them out

        See my post above at 11.1.1

        All these little parties have a health policy that will kill older people.

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          aussiepete

          Just revisited ALA health policy and don’t have any problems with it, maybe you can give a direct quote, please don’t leave me in ignorance,

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            ianl8888

            Sure. This is just one offensive paragraph.

            Australian Liberty Alliance shall foster the widespread use of co-located facilities in the public and private health systems to save money and encourage efficiency. In addition, strengthening of private health fund membership, including more effective disincentives for those who can afford to, but do not have private insurance

            Gobblededook for destroying the existing “community rating” concept.

            What is a co-located facilility when it’s at home ?

            Strengthening private health fund membership ? HOW, exactly ?

            More effective disincentives blah blah ? Again, HOW exactly ?

            Young people have no issue with this rhubarb since it doesn’t affect them, till 50 years down the track. Try to grasp this – that you have no problems with this policy, written in Klingon, tells me you are one of these.

            Well, vote away. Nothing will change, your life will still be as unadventurous as it is now.

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              aussiepete

              ianl8888
              I do not find the paragraph, to which you refer, in the slightest bit offensive, in fact quite the opposite. I can’t see how it attacks community rating, a concept that is becoming more blurred with time and which Susan Ley refuses to rule out changing.The meanings of the other points you mentioned are quite clear to me (remember they are policies). I’m quite sure you are smart enough to work all this out without my help. Your emotive language and feigned obtuseness suggest to me another agenda. BTW,for your information i am 69 years old.

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              Sceptical Sam

              Try thinking about the efficacy of a $7.00 co-payment for a starter.

              The “worried well” are driving up costs. When services are “free” (bulk billed) why would you not use the GP’s surgery as a day out with the kiddies?

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              Retired Now

              While I was unhappy with some aspect of health policy, this wasn’t the bit that annoyed me.

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      • #
        Ian

        As I’ve just replied above, the first budget is clearly not free spending and there is little or no current evidence that Turnbull will embrace much of the rest. I’ve read a lot of comments form the del cons in the Australian and quite frankly I’m appalled. I’ve never voted Labor and never will and he Greens are utter anathema. However the Far Right is as deplorable as the Far Left. Just look at One Nation. The attitude here and at the Australian is one I never expected to see in either place. Sorry Joanne I must disagree with you on this one I’m clearly much more a liberal than a Liberal.

        As for the A:LA policies:

        On Australia: here’s an ALAc policy comment “Migrants do not dream of a new life in Australia because we are a Socialist, [snip] or tribal society. Migrants come for the freedom, justice and prosperity only Western civilisation creates.” “Only Western civilisation create” There’s a shed load of hubris

        On Liberty “Liberty is civilised Freedom” What in Heavens’s name is “civilised freedom”? Who defines civilised the ALA?

        On Alliance: Australians fought in alliance with like-minded people against the foes of Liberty and Western civilisation. Tell that to the opponents of the wars in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. Were the Vietnamese, Iraqis and Afghans foes of western civilisation?

        On Smarter smaller government: “We stand for small and delegated government to serve the people of Australia. When elected we will reduce the number of federal ministers to the essential core portfolios, rigorously reduce unproductive overheads and stop wasteful government programs.’ And just what are “the essential core portfolios” Who will decide? Rigorously reduce “unproductive overheads” such as ? Wateful government programs? Again such as/

        I could go on and on but it is just too depressing wading through this mountain of meaningless vebiage.l

        [Approved with a snip, otherwise as is. Again, too inciteful to not approve it.] AZ

        [Inciteful was intended to be insightful and complementary.]

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          Yonniestone

          Ian many in Australia feel the same anguish as you where the country’s political landscape is heading, this “meaningless verbiage” is exactly what should be happening as sharing thoughts and information educates others to put their vote where it counts instead of fronting up to the polling booth and justifying their choice with a “better the devil you know” attitude.

          I may not agree with everything you believe but at least be grateful you have a national soap box to spruike from via the internet, cheers.

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            Ian

            Surely your comment “at least be grateful” etc applies equally to all commencers here. Why am I singled out? Because on this occasion and this is the first time ever on this site, my comment is not in sync with the majority? Why do I “spruike”? Surely this could be equally applied to those supporting the ALA but isn’t. Why did you not write “I may not agree with everything you believe but at least be grateful you, and of course those who hold a different opinion of the ALA, have a national soap box to spruike from via the internet”. That you didn’t suggests the supporters of the ALA are overly sensitive to criticism

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        • #
          Ian

          I wrote this before scrolling down to read an email from Jo explaining the snip. Fair enough but it seems odd that the stated core values of the ALA could be deemed contentious. Not sure what that says about that Party. Also don’t understand the “Again, too inciteful to not approve it”. What would not approving it incite?

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            KinkyKeith

            I think the “inciteful” description of your comment was actually meant as a compliment.

            Try reading it as insightful.

            Good insight, but like most of us, not seeing other points.

            I admit that I have not read the manifestos of any of the parties and so cannot comment on the detail of future promises, all I do is look at past history and performance.

            Turnbull, imho, to be avoided.

            Abbott,with all his human faults, got it right for a lot of the time.

            Every perspective helps. Thanks for your input.

            KK

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            Ian

            Just realised you might have meant insightful. Did you? If so thanks

            [Yes it should have been insightful. A couple of keystrokes and the entire meaning is changed. You can take it as a complement as Kinky Keith suggests.] AZ

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          aussiepete

          Ian
          You seem to be implying that the “so-called” Delcons are on the far right of the spectrum. I’m sure that in the vast majority of cases that is not so and i’m equally sure you know it.
          May i address you other points with a series of questions for you.
          1/ What civilisations are superior to the West when it comes to creating freedom, justice and prosperity ?
          2/ The concept of civilised freedom is not hard for me to grasp, would you like some help on a definition?
          3/ If not Great Britain and the U.S.A, what other two super powers would you suggest Australia have as allies.
          4/ Mr Turnbull has at present 47 Ministers and Assistant Ministers, would you like the same, more or less?
          5/ DO you not believe that the Govt. has any wasteful and unproductive programmes?

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          Hasbeen

          Ian that was probably the best sales pitch for the ALA that I’ve heard.

          I’m just worried they will be too kind to the illegals, & will restart the boat trade.

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          Sceptical Sam

          Were the Vietnamese,……… foes of western civilisation?

          You’re an expert on the Vietcong now as well? And the Communist North Vietnam invasion of the South? Along with it’s Soviet and PRC backing and support?

          Shame on you.

          No. Not the Vietnamese – they were the victims of the Communist scourge. They still are.

          The Allied intervention stopped the further encroachment of Communism throughout SE Asia. Remember Pol Pot? That’s what the rest were going to get if the Allies in Vietnam didn’t demonstrate that the economic cost was going to be too great for the Soviets and the PRC if they persisted in their aggressive support of the spread of the greatest authoritarian system seen in this generation.

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          Retired Now

          Hmmm…
          ” the first budget is clearly not free spending and there is little or no current evidence that Turnbull will embrace much of the rest.”

          Sorry to me this budget doesn’t do anything to cut the free spending so it continues the government free spending. I have had some experience of working with government and it is hugely over spending. If we cut out 80% of unnecessary government meetings costing thousands of dollars for each one in lack of productivity we could sort out our budget problems. I reckoned 80% of the staff in the unproductive meetings could without detriment to services could be done away with – yes we would then have them unemployed but at vastly less cost to the taxpayer.

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      • #
        Considerate Thinker

        Jo, so far I am still considering my position, result is that there have been two telephone auto polls of this household, my wife answered the first then handed the phone to me asking if I wanted to respond – to the question who do you prefer as prime minister Malcolm Turnbull or Bill Shorten. It seems neither of us prefer either as Prime minister therefore all we can do is hang up.

        Is there anybody who works for these polling organisations that can be told the reason for so many hanging up at this offensive question, and it would be nice to know if the number of people hanging up has increased since the last election. Perhaps they can work out a way to poll the level of frustration conservative Liberal voters have with a leader they did not want foisted on them.

        The budget came and went, I have no objection to it as far as it goes, it is in the right direction but gives no confidence that conservatives won’t be shafted after the election and “don’t Risk it” will not deter my eventual course of action in carefully voting to show my personal dissatisfaction. I will be watching keenly to see how the liberals and Nationals react to our concerns.

        Thanks for all the work that is being done to inform us of the options.

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          Considerate Thinker mentions this (my bolding here)

          ….. I have no objection to it as far as it goes, it is in the right direction but gives no confidence that conservatives won’t be shafted after the election …..

          No, I may even be taking what he said with the incorrect context, but that seems to be the biggest of the problems.

          Don’t get me wrong here, because I’m not calling for a rubber stamp Senate, but it seems to me, and almost everyone I talk to, that we have TWO major parties, and only those two are actually capable of forming Government, but as soon as they do get in, they are hamstrung with virtually every single thing they attempt to do.

          They have the numbers in the Reps, and no problems there with their legislation. However, as soon as it reaches The Senate, the other side (automatically) oppose it, and they marshall either The Greens or any of the Independents to join with them in voting it down. Then the originators in the Reps need to lobby Senators to try and pass it. Those Independents then can pursue their own individual little things, saying that they will approve it, but but but, this has to be changed, add this to it, take this out, help me with my agenda, and allow my legislation, etc etc etc, and then I’ll approve it.

          A major party can promise all they want prior to getting elected, but then they have no way of actually delivering on those promises because small interest groups want to get their way.

          And what’s with the current Government now being forced to pay for Labor’s wildly unfunded promises, having to now deliver on them, not having the money to deliver those promises Labor made, and now being held to account for not delivering on what Labor promised. All for the sake of political correctness. eg. You can’t NOT deliver it out of fear of the backlash.

          It seems to me that the questions ….. How will you ever pay for this? and Where does the money come from? have become something not to be dared to be asked, or considered, or just shrugged off.

          Tony.

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            Annie

            Why cannot the present government just say that the unfunded plans of the previous government simply cannot be met? End of story. Why not use this situation to point out the stupidity of going into greater and greater debt….or is it really all part of wrecking Western civilisation?

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              el gordo

              We are in a low inflationary environment and the Reserve cut rates to illustrate the point. The national debt is of no great concern because Australia is growing.

              ‘Bumping up our population by adding a million every 3½ years leaves most Australians cold. They have nagging doubts about what is the world’s biggest immigration program, the developed world’s highest population growth.

              ‘One reason for public suspicion is that advocates of a Big Australia never come clean about the details – for infrastructure, for density, for a degraded environment.’

              Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/lets-rezone-point-piper-to-fit-the-big-australia-advocates-long-for-20160313-gnho2k.html#ixzz47lunb1Uf
              Follow us: @smh on Twitter | sydneymorningherald on Facebook

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              ROM

              Annie @ # 15.4.3.11

              Why cannot the present government just say that the unfunded plans of the previous government simply cannot be met?
              End of story.

              It seems nobody has attempted to reply to your quite legitimate question and one that I would suspect is a bit of puzzle to many, many tax payers.

              First and foremost; The Government is a legal entity, an ongoing corporate type structure where the CEO will change, the board members will change, the shareholders will change but the legal entity of the corporation / aka the Government continues on and is required to honor the contracts and legal agreements drawn up and signed by the previous CEO’s and boards and with the approval of the shareholders.

              The Commonwealth government [ and State governments on a smaller scale ] like any very big business corporation operates, has contracted for and signed a vast net work of interleaving agreements between the Commonwealth and the states, with and between various government departments both federal and state and also with numerous public and private legal entities. ie; contracts for the new submarines.

              As just one example, think of the agreements that have to be in place and in operation between the various governments both federal and state, and all the various private school bodies.
              And all those government / school bodies which are legal entities and have to registered as such, the numerous and various signed agreements, contracts in short, paid for by the government and the then legal obligation of the school authorities, state or private, to honor that contract by providing an education to kids that has to meet certain agreed standards to continue to have access to the funds the government has agreed to offer for those those private school legal entities meeting their education obligations as set out in the signed agreement, the ongoing contract between the government and the school education bodies.

              In short the government as an ongoing legal entity has a vast number of what are ongoing legally enforceable agreements for which it is liable to honor regardless of who the current CEO aka PM is or who the board members, aka the Ministry and its cascading number of divisions aka public service departments are.

              The only way out of such contracts is for a government to unilaterally say that the money is no longer there so they will no longer honor those agreements / contracts or will only honor certain agreements and contracts.

              Effectively the government then does what a major corporation does when it has screwed up very thoroughly indeed and is fast running out of funds with no relief in sight.
              It announces a form of bankruptcy without ever in the slightest way ever admitting to such and puts itself into a financial regrouping set up similar to some sections of the American form of a limited bankruptcy which allows a corporation, company or individual relief from their debts and time to work their way out of that bankruptcy.
              There is a very high price to pay for all concerned when a significant national government goes through this very messy process.

              Argentina went through such a process and is still sorting out the fallout from that late 1980′s episode of a near bankruptcy.

              There are in fact around seven nations today who are currently close to what could be described as bankruptcy including the likes of Greece.
              Greece would be thoroughly bankrupt today bar for the massive loans/ gifts / graft from the EU in 2015, primarily german money.

              Spain came close in the 2000′s when its deficit in renewable energy subsidies alone passed the 32 billion euros mark.

              Spain then unilaterally announced that it was reducing and in some cases eliminating subsidies to the renewable energy scammers.
              That it would charge renewable energy operators / owners for the use of the grid system to transport and sell their output.
              That it would charge the renewables for the huge extra effort needed in the maintaining of grid stability with the immense and rapid variations of output from the renewables.
              Subsequently there were a number of non Spanish owners / operators of renewable energy systems in Spain who announced they were going to sue the Spanish government for the breaking of the agreed contract re renewable energy subsidy payments.

              So when a Government even after a major change in the CEO/ aka PM and the board / ministry just tries to blatantly walk away from previously legislated and agreed contracts, they both break the law in reneging on the legislation that the Government it self has drawn up and passed and they are reneging on agreed legal and binding contracts and agreements with other legal entities.

              No national government can last for long in a democracy if it adopts that type of action and response to something it doesn’t like and can barely stomach if it begins to regularly renege on the previously agreed and signed contracts across the entire society it represents.

              Chaos and societal breakdown is the only outcome when a government attempts to pursue such policies.

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                Annie

                I do understand all that ROM but I believe it is deeply wrong to enter into contracts for which there is no funding. It is cynical to a high degree and, frankly, I depise the Labor/Labour governments that have a very bad habit of doing this.

                Nowadays though, I am in the situation of feeling “A plague on all your houses”

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      aussiepete

      Ian,
      I think you and many others (including Miranda Devine)just don’t seem to get the point. As Jo pointed out, the disenchantment is not about the Abbott coup as such.I believe there is a sizable percentage of LNP voters who have felt for a long time, that the LNP is drifting leftward,both at State level and Federally.Tony Abbott was an allround good bloke who seemed likely to slow the drift. In large part, that’s what he did, but the MSM, the lettuce leaf latte’ sippers,and noisy minorities orchestrated a campaign of vilification,(and yes he did give them some ammunition).The leftist march had to continue, so get rid of him and let the drift resume.That is what we are really on about. Politicians come and go but we do not want our Conservative values to disappear without trace.
      Finally, Ian, i will be voting ALA but would like to know which of their policies is (as you say)without substance, or was that just a bit of burble on your part because it made your argument sound a bit better.

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        ianl8888

        … ALA but would like to know which of their policies is (as you say)without substance

        See my post at 11.1.1. And it’s not a matter of me “saying”, as your ignorant comment implies. READ the website policies, as far as the little parties want you to.

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      JohnM

      Abbott was forced to break his election promises when he discovered the true state of the country’s finance, which was rather different to what Labor had claimed.
      His choices were to break his promises or see Australians bear the financial burden for many years. Abbott chose the former, useless Turnbull has chosen the latter. Don’t forget that about 50% of people in Australia pay no net tax (i.e. they get more in government handouts than what they pay in tax) so they don’t care about others having to bear the burden.

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        I never really understood why PM Abbott made Mr. Turnbull minister in charge of the ABC, apart from his comments about no cuts to this August body. The media in general and the ABC in particular were against PM Abbott from day 1, think about anti- Australian programmes about the handling of problems with the cattle trade (under Julia’s reign), the Indonesian phone taps.

        Minister Turnbull said it was up to the ABC board, but didn’t demand any resignations of the essentially Labor appointed board members.

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      el gordo

      ‘Abbott ruined it for himself’ when he decided to keep Peta Credlin as his Chief of Staff, exclusivity instead of inclusiveness.

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        PeterPetrum

        Rubbish! Credlin kept a tight control on a bunch of ratbags who thought they deserved more than Abbott was prepared to give them. The lack of a “Credlin” in Turncoat’s administration is now painfully clear.

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    • #
      Another Ian

      Jo

      Well I wondered where I mentioned Abbott!

      What I’m seeing is that in most of the English speaking countries with two party systems there is a “pox on both your houses” strong sentiment afoot. Which Trump seems to be the first to run with.

      Hence the Libs problem here.

      And by the Courier Mail today the Qld LNP might be trying a “Malcolm” – while ahead in the polls!

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        Actually Donald Trump is extremely media savvy and has done well with lots of publicity, both good and bad, for little cost to his campaign. We are already seeing some moderation in his views as he seeks to woo the American voter. I’d say his chances of winning were 50-50 as people are turning their backs on establishment politicians.

        As to the dilemma we face I’ll try not to vote for any of 54, certainly not for the greens and labor, and hope the Nats field someone in my electorate.

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      Another Ian, yes Chiefio (or EM Smith) analysis is not only interesting but has relevance here.
      I made a comment under the post saying there are similarities here in Australia (most say Australia is behind in time happenings in the US) I also say that there seems to be a socialist disease in most of the world, but in China and Vietnam (maybe even Burma/Myanmar) there is a move towards free enterprise and growing prosperity.
      All the golden periods of prosperity, culture, education/knowledge and engineering achievements came about by free enterprise and competition eg the Greek golden era, the early Roman Empire, China’s Tang dynasty, Venice, the Dutch trading, British Empire in the Victorian times. Socialism through feudal Caesars, Emperors, Kings and Dictators (eg Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mugabe, Mao etc) lead to collapsing civilisations and in the end some type of revolution (often bloody as in the fall of Rome, wars in China, French revolution but not always such as the decline of the British empire) and a change of direction.
      In Australia the Greens, Shorten with the unions, and Turnbull panders to the socialists of the EU and UN need to be removed.

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    RobertR

    Yes we desperately need a true free enterprise and true laissez faire government in Australia.

    Yes there has been a worrying shift to the left resulting in people in politics who think money grows on trees or comes down from the sky to enable these people to conveniently spend on lunatic policies like climate change and a myriad of other politically correct schemes that amount to an astonishing waste of resources.

    And these resources are only available through the aspirational activities of those who are actually working in our society. And all the time these idiots who are wasting this wealth are making it harder and harder for the later to produce this wealth for the common good.
    However we must be extremely careful with all these voting strategies put forward here.
    Some are suggesting we should vote for labor to give the small “L” liberals a kick in the pants…………..this is DANGEROUS.

    IF LABOR WINNS THE NEXT ELECTION IT WOULD BE CATOSTROPIC FOR THIS COUNTRY. We had six years of it, and look what we got. Another round would tip the place over the top!

    Suggesting voting for labour carries an extremely high risk. The only solution is a voting policy that SUCCESSFULLY increases the percentage of true conservatives in a successful liberal win.

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      The damage from a Labor win is real but could be offset if the conservative libertarians control the Senate.

      The strategy I put out in the last post was to support the Libs that were true conservatives, exactly as you suggest. But this strategy carries the risk that Shorten may win the House. There is no “risk free” option. I’m asking the hard questions. Three years from now will there be a real party that represents the centre right side of politics?

      Are we better off with a fake conservative government now, or a real opposition?

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        RobertR

        Ooh, sorry about the capitals used when I expressed my fear of a labor win, but truly, even the thought of them getting the house of reps again is enough to make someone break out in hives.

        And if they and the greens did get control of the senate as well, it would be all over, the deficit would go to trillions, not just billions.
        Winning the senate is good in theory but how likely this is actually possible, is another issue. Voting for the Nats in the senate and the reps if a Nat standing in the electorate.

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          I understand. Preferencing Labor above Lib is called the “nuclear option” for a reason. But if the Liberal Base will always vote Liberal regardless of principle then it is no wonder the Liberal careerist party will move centre left as it does not need to worry about losing votes from the centre right.

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          Robert, thanks for your comment though. Other readers will read it the same way you did. I’ve added an update note and extra link to the post — reading that first post is important to understand where I am coming from.

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        Analitik

        The damage from a Labor win is real but could be offset if the conservative libertarians control the Senate

        I feel this is the best outcome we can hope for and should allow for minimal damage as it give the Coalition the option for forcing another double-dissolution. I’ve outlined my full thinking on this in comment #12

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        Ross

        Centre Right? Why can’t you people say it? RIGHT WING! Right of centre!
        Centre Right? What sort of cowards castle is that?
        Right Wingers are looking for a Right Wing home.
        The ALA is shouting for their votes. Do you endorse them Jo?
        If not, why not?
        [Centre Right is a common term in parliamentary systems, taken to mean in the centre but leaning to the right. Right of center or right wing is further to the right than that. Jo knows exactly what she means, it is you who are somewhat confused.] Fly

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    ROM

    A couple of months ago I posted a comment here on Jo’s blog in which I said that I believed that many nations would very soon begin to shift towards the “Right” in politics.
    In fact that shift was already underway as I gleaned from the news and commentary items from many sources.

    The various national Right wing parties that Jo mentions above in her headline post plus a number of other lower profile national Right wing groups in the less media publicised nations were very active and highly evident and becoming increasingly influential with increasing membership back close to a year ago or more ago leading to a considerable amount of leftist and centrist angst in the opinion columns of the various European news groups.

    Almost invariably when economic and social and security times start to get much harder, political history almost invariably points towards a swing towards the Right in free voting national societies and democracies .

    Not openly published very much yet but as one of my brothers in a recent trip through Europe found out when talking to the ordinary european citizen, the European political apparatchiks, both national and even more so in the corridors of the unaccountable, irresponsible, responsible to no one, EU bureaucrats are scared absolutely paranoid about the rapid rise of the New Right across most of western, northern and central Europe.

    The rise of the political and social and economic “Right” , don’t forget that rapidly escalating Social and Economic slant as well as Political, being little more that a harsh counter reaction to the rapidly increasing extremism and fast rising intolerance, now rapidly moving and deteriorating towards a hard Left promoted openly totalitarian push to destroy anybody who dares to publicly or now even privately express sympathies for any alternative political views that differ from those of the increasingly paranoid European and western and increasingly rabid “hard Left”.

    The Left of course in most democracies has gone a long way down the extremist intolerant path itself in its policies and its social values and in its promotion of utterly unworkable and blindly based policies and positions based on little more than abject ignorance of the real world operating realities such as in energy provisions to societies and in education and in personal values where the religion based values that are the basis of our entire set of laws in our western democracies are being denigrated to a degree not seen or experienced for centuries in western societies.

    To be replaced by the totalitarian trending hard Left with what?

    The question for the Left is what will those basic laws that define our ethics and morality and our attitude towards our fellow man consist of under a hard Left totalitarian regime if we ever allow one to begin and to continue to exist and allow it to grow?

    We already know the answer to that and it was the Marxist based theoretical leftist system that barely worked even at a very low level of human expectation. And which was rejected in almost its entirety by all those who have lived under Stalin’s Soviets, under Mao Zedong’s Chinese revolution, under the old Peasants of the Vietnamese Politburo and now under Maduro of Venezuela ,[ Venezuela being the one and only nation so far with estimated greater oil reserves than Saudi Arabia and yet the socialist paradise of Venezuela may only be weeks or even only days away from total economic collapse! ] who took over when Hugo Chavez died in 2013 plus the North Korean socialistic totalitarian dominated regime and Workers Paradise and a few others such as Pol Pots murderous genocidal totalitarian and pure Socialistic society where one third of the then Cambodia’s population of 3 millions was murdered to achieve the perfect Pol Pot dominated Socialist society.

    The Great Wheel of Historyas always, rolls ever onward.
    Sometimes it just dawdles along.
    Sometimes it rolls on at a furious pace but roll on it does and always has for the entirety of the history of the human race.
    It never stops!

    There are many sides to that Great Wheel and as that Great Wheel continues to turn it always brings up another side up to the top.

    And so many of us then begin to believe that the view we see of that Wheel, of history today, particularly when we personally like the view of that History that the Great Wheel has brought to the top again, we begin to once again think and hope and believe it may once again become the “normal” state of affairs.
    And then we begin to quite falsely as always, believe that this is how it will be forever.

    The extremist hard Left is on the down going part of that Great Wheel of History today.
    It has had its turn, its day in the sun and has been found wanting in nearly every thing it has touched.

    Soon it also will be crushed for a time under the treads of that Wheel of History only to emerge once again sometime in the unknowable future to repeat once again all those old ineffective nostrums and attempts at domination of society, of domination of civilisation and of the complete domination of all of mankind all over again.

    Meanwhile we must set to and make sure the hard Left and all its extremism and its utter intolerance and pseudo totalitarianism is consigned to the losers bin of History for as long as our generations exist.

    To ensure freedom of thought, of expression, of opinion, of movement, of personal rights, of societal obligations for each of us, and the prevention of Totalitarianism in all its horrors ever rising again for many generations into the future, if we can leave this legacy to future generations, then our generations will have done our share for human advancement and for the success of those future generations.

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      ROM

      To add to my post above at # 18, another sizeable brick has just been kicked out of the rapidly growing pile of rubble that had become the Left’s/ greens Holy Grail of total control and domination of the global energy sources and therfore of civilisation itself and all that entailed re the future of mankind.

      From “Euractiv.com”

      Green transport target will be scrapped post-2020, EU confirms

      Which probably means of course that nobody from here on in will pay anything but lip service at best to any Bio Fuels requirements as mandated by the EU bureacracy.
       And that also implies that a whole host of other EU mandated energy modifying and usage legislation will become increasingly ignored as everybody will begin to believe that it is all over rover and the whole of energy stifling , industry destroying, EU mandated energy legislation has about run its political course and a new far more rational outlook from a new generation of rising in political power and influence, right wing politicians will begin and are already beginning to have a profound effect on Europe’s entire societal and industrial and economic future and its policies.

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    KinkyKeith

    This nicely expresses the current ugly state world politics.

    Awareness of the need for change is always a good starting point but whilever the Merkels and OBamas have followers who believe in the Horn of Plenty they will get the votes.

    Who could have predicted that workers and taxpayers would be enslaved ,as we are now, with the duty of keeping that horn filled and flowing.

    Kk

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      KinkyKeith

      this relates to ROMs #18

      probably obvious but …

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        ROM

        I saw a term this morning [ Thurs ] that was almost completely self explanatory in its implications.

        The term was the Bubble Elite

        Highly paid, wealthy, often professional or industry and government or public service executive positions and/or academic employment.
        Usually living in what are in reality deliberately created and very expensive ghettos of like minded select groups where those of a lesser social status are unwanted and if residentially located in the Bubble Elite’s ghetto are regarded as little more than social pariahs.
        Minimal social contact, often deliberately so, outside of their employment situation with those of a lower status or a lesser income.
        No real knowledge or background in the daily travails of those in lesser circumstances.
        Little real knowledge of life outside of the central city and the expensive elitist ghetto they reside in.
        Almost no knowledge, a blanket ignorance of where and how their daily food and energy of every type and all those small needs of everyday life are produced and where they originate from or by whom and how they were all produced so as to almost magically appear on the market shelves and in the show rooms and expensive little establishments they frequent.

        And yet isolated, safe from the harsh world outside of their small elitist bubble of narrow straight jacketed, similar minded individuals who believe that in their self assurance , their ignorance and their overweening arrogance, they alone have all the answers to how those of a lesser status should be governed and how their lives should be made to conform to the dictates of those who inhabit that elitist bubble, the “Bubble Elite”

        And for a couple of prime examples of “bubble elites” we have to look no further than the green sleaze and now Shorten and his “I will lead like a unionist”.
        And Turnbull, a truly long established “bubble elite” dweller who lacks almost any semblance of personal knowledge or appreciation of the lives of those of a much lesser income and a much lesser social status.

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    ScotstsmaninUtah

    Political Spectrum shift

    Not being an Australian I cannot say that I understand the “goings on” in Australian politics but thank you Jo for these two articles.

    What is becoming dangerous is the labelling of those that object to the “do gooders” and “hard left” as being equivalent to fascists. I am seeng this more and more.
    It is a perverse shift in our understanding of the West’s Political metric.

    UKIP and The freedom party have both been subject to this taint and I wonder if there is such a party in Australia who whilst trying to protect OZ have been painted negatively.

    Meanwhile China is still trying to buy land in Australia, obviously they want what’s best for OZ :o

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    John Watt

    So we’re back on the red team vs blue team theme. Why? It is just a road map for going around in circles.
    If one team wins by a lot they impose their pet theories on us. Sooner or later we get wise and chuck them out…just to have the other team reverse those “must have “ policies and impose their biased version of “utopia”. Don’t you get sick of being stuck on the roundabout?
    If the win is narrow we get a “hung” parliament going nowhere useful plus antics of the type surrounding Peter Slipper et al.
    Regardless of any election result, red or blue, the intra-team Caesar style assassinations continue and keep the journalists busy and the rest of us entertained.
    Surely we have enough football to satisfy our craving for red team vs blue team argy–bargy?
    We clearly need a better map. One that gets us off the roundabout.

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      Vlad the Impaler

      “Don’t you get sick of being stuck on a roundabout?”

      I dunno, it was pretty funny in “European Vacation”:

      “Look kids, Big Ben, Parliament!”
      — Chevy Chase

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      AndyG55

      “If the win is narrow we get a “hung” parliament ”

      But this may be enough to cause Turnbull to resign !!!

      He is ONLY interested in being Supreme Leader.

      Once he is gone, the DelCons would return in force if a real conservative, instead of waffling Green sycophant, were Liberal leader.

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        This is the dangerous thing. A sane person might think a bare win and a hung parliament would make the PM circumspect and careful, but look at the most hung parliament of all — Julia Gillards. She won by 400 votes in Corangamite yet totally reneged on her word to bring in the big Carbon Tax. This is the saddest thing — one side here will win one way or another, and there is no sign that humility will slow that trainwreck down. The Senate might slow them, but not the voter margin.

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      John Watt

      So much for the new road map. Looks like Di Natale is striving to use the current map to target voters in marginal electorates sympathetic to his “Dangerous Global Warming” story to apply the brakes to innovation in coal-fired power generation. Either by controlling a hung Parliament or by clogging up the Senate.

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    Chris

    Remember, at the 1998 election Howard’s government lost ONE MILLION VOTES (pinky to bottom lip) and was still reelected.

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    Richard Ilfeld

    I believe the root cause of the disenchantment is the departure of the “bubble people”from ground truth.

    Bubble people live and work in the academy, or government (in capital cities, a completely encompassing environment). Or they journalize about those with whom they fraternize.

    When times are good, the excesses in the bubble are tolerated, perhaps with wry amusement,or like a lab curiosity. When times are bad, the bubble people can usually find a scapegoat. They are usually arrogant & smug, and tailor their appeals to those who they define as having low cognitive ability….anyone but them.

    ( Bias: I have a US persepective)

    The masses are not stupid. Half of them have above average capabilities. And most groups outside of the elite centers have a good selection of capable people….the ones who have been making things work and paying for the privilege of being governed.

    Climate change is one of several propagandized elements of elite control that has failed to a degree to pose a threat to them.

    The elite position is so patently false to the ordinary folks that it invites either anger or ridicule, two power killers.

    It’s the same on many other issues.

    Trade: If you are told all your life that trade is about countries doing what they do best and all profiting, it’s hard to buy that what a country does best is take your intellectual and physical capital, add in cheap labor, weak health & safety, and currency manipulation,and ship back the result.

    Immigration: “doing the jobs natives won’t” is different than bringing in cheap IT on faked “need” visas, then forcing folks to train their replacements.

    PC: Tell a person who is not a racist often enough that he is simply because there is policy disagreement is like beating a dog…..even if you feed them they will eventually either attack or run away.

    When a critical mass of the folks discover that the person behind the curtain is a fraud,change happens.

    Looks like we might be there.

    [Approved as is. Too accurate to let some words block it.] AZ

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      KinkyKeith

      Richard@23

      A great outline. The concept of Bubble People is very useful.

      Kk

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      ianl8888

      @ AZ

      [Approved as is. Too accurate to let some words block it.] AZ

      Which words ?

      [Ian, "Stupid" is one of those words. But the automatic filter doesn't distinguish context. If someone had been called stupid I would snip it. But the context clearly rules that out. The comment to Richard Ilfeld isn't necessary but I do it as a courtesy in such circumstances.] AZ

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        KinkyKeith

        :-)

        Maybe:

        killers

        racist

        immigration

        beating

        ?

        Who knows, but this is still a good blog and many thanks to those who run it.

        KK

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    Mike

    Too many catchwords, abbreviations, and phrases… with this use of language, it will only accelerate an involution until all that is left is grunts and groans etc.

    Hitler plays Tunnbull in this one….: “Malcolm Turnbull, Global Warming, the ETS and his leadership going down the toilet.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NguB1EYfHsg

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    doubtingdave

    Voters across the Western style Democracies are beginning to wake up and notice that they have been given a fake political system , one in which supporters of either the left or the right of centre act like rival football supporters taunting each other that all that’s wrong in the big game is the fault of the other side , whilst they fail to notice that both the left and the right are two wings controlled by the same establishment bird , and whilst the voter is distracted , looking at and accusing one of the two wings , they are not looking straight up at the body of the great bird that’s crapping all over them . In the UK with Nigel Farage , and in America with Donald Trump , we have two anti establishment leaders that have emerged that appeal to people from both the left and the right , they have become mast heads for popular movements to gather around , out of curiosity do you Aussies have a figure head ,of any stature that you can gather around ? , would like to ask the same of Canadians as well now that you’ve been lumbered with Trudeau , thanks

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      KinkyKeith

      Well put Dave.

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      PeterPetrum

      No Dave, we do not! Jo is right, as much as Tony Abbott is preferred by many, including me, he was the one who fertilised the Delcon seeds, only we did not realise it at the time.

      He was not prepared to stand up to the left media, the Greens and the do-gooder community and tell them all to get stuffed, and damn the consequences. He is no Trump. If he was, he would still be there and he would have completely turned the tables on the establishment, as Trump has.

      I cannot think of anyone in this country who could do it. The ALA are taking a quieter, longer route, and may be ultimately successful. Perhaps their flame will burn longer than Trump’s in the end?

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        Peter C

        I agree Peter,

        I wish that Tony Abbott had been a lot firmer with all, He made mistakes. One of them might have been trying to please everyone.

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          PeterPetrum

          Yes, Peter C, and 18c is a perfect example of that, which Tony himself now acknowledges in his recent mea culpa. Perhaps he has learned some lessons.

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    Howdy all -

    It is these sorts of people here in the states that just handed the Republican nomination for president to Donald Trump. The important thing about this is that the two candidates with the most delegates – Trump and Cruz – are the biggest outsiders. Trump was viewed as the biggest outsider and eventually won. Both are hated and reviled by the party insiders, lobbyists and consultants inside the Washington DC Beltway. In many ways over here, those guys picked the form of their Destructor (Ghostbusters reference). Looks like you guys are on the same path. Cheers -

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    doubtingdave – no.. and to be perfectly honest I’d rather not have a ‘personality’ leading the company country.

    I’d rather someone who put their head down and did the damned job without bells or whistles, who stopped making up new laws and rules as though that were the metric by which a government was judged, and who stopped pandering to the MSM. Preferably we’d also like politicians who stopped outsourcing their jobs to bureaucrats, and kicked bureaucrats who thought their job was to make up new policies, rules and in some cases- laws.

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      KinkyKeith

      Karl,I think that you and Dave are just giving two perspectives of the same problem.

      Both excellent and very useful.

      KK

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    Manfred

    …and partly thanks to a silly voting system.

    An astonishing comment in my view.

    First past the post works well when an electorate sends a representative(s) to Government central and hauls them back periodically to be held publicly and personally responsible for properly representing their interests. The Parties distorted the system so badly to make it a travesty, such that small numbers of outliers can now hold the balance of power and outrageously and non-democratically cavort around as self-described and MSM exalted ‘King Makers’. It stinks, and looks putrid Green. The current system barely tolerates the voter. It is party-centric and as you have demonstrated here, apparently somewhat along the road to auto-digestion.

    The exemplification of scientific leadership over UN IPCC consensus – was always well illustrated here.
    Party consensual politics masquerading as leadership seems little more than political correctness, or if you prefer, Cultural Marxism.

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    Sean McHugh

    The table doesn’t tell us much. There is no point asking a Greens supporter if he is now more likely to support the Liberals. A Greens voter will be voting Greens, period.

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      Greg Cavanagh

      As far as I can tell, the Greens get their support through Labor and preferences. It’s a two party for the price of one deal, where both parties contribute to the one. It’s a cheat in other words.

      When we demolished Labor in QLD a couple years ago, Labor got a grand total of 6% of the votes. They nearly lost party status altogether. Greens got a fraction of a percent, whereas normally they’d be getting 6% – 8%. Which tells me that a vote for Labor is a vote for greens through preferences. Therefor they are gathering and sharing votes, and giving power to Labor as a double power play.

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    PhilJourdan

    What if you had an election and no one voted? Not that bad yet, but in the US, Bernie Sanders supporters are saying no way to Hillary, Ted Cruz Supporters are saying no way to Trump. And some of us are Delcons just enjoying the hole show.

    I make no predictions come November in the states. But I will watch Australia this July to see how things go there. It could be a predictor of things to come.

    But for now, I am just going to say “EFF It” grab some popcorn and laugh at all the heartburn these elections are generating for the ones who “care”.

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      Analitik

      Ted’s gone so what are the Tea Party options now?

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        PhilJourdan

        NO different than they have been for the past 8 years, with one exception. Trump is not establishment (who hated both Cruz and Trump almost equally). So they can vote establishment (Hillary) or anti-establishment (Trump).

        I am voting Trump for that reason. And for the fact it is time to get rid of the bums.

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    TdeF

    There will be a big voter backlash at the election. I hope. How big is hard to say. The current vogue of politicians following their own fashionable opinions and utterly ignoring their electors is frustrating people across the country. In one area the conflict is total, a carbon tax. No one wants it. It does not even make sense and changing the name makes no difference.

    Most Australians cannot see even the point of sending more money overseas to pretend to fix Global Warming, but it is not being debated. At least Labor and the Greens are very open about it, also wanting 50%-100% so called renewables when that is nuts. Malcolm is smirking his trademark smirk and no one is even asking about his favorite topic, his bankers’ carbon tax, an ETS. Gillard knew it was poison and promised no Carbon Tax in a government she led, which was directed at Labor voters not Liberal and against the Greens. It was her first move in a Green government.

    So Australians at the poll face a parliament where all political parties will have a carbon tax as policy when as much of 90% of Australians do not want it. No one is even running a poll on who wants a carbon tax or think gay marriage even makes sense or to stop the boat turnbacks. This is rule by politicians and political machinery and factions, not democracy. It is heartening to see the triumph of Trump over the Republican machinery. People are really sick of overpaid, irresponsible and deaf politicians doing as they please. Even Liberal politicians like Bronwyn Bishop have made it clear they are answerable to no one and will retire on their Gold passes and massive indexed incomes after living a life of privilege on other people’s money and hard work.

    ‘Progressive’ politicians can join the Greens instead of infiltrating and controlling conservative seats in preselection controlled by factions, just like Labor. Few of Malcolm’s new friends believe in Liberal principles of small government, low taxation. Everyone who supports Malcolm belongs in the Greens, not the Liberals or Nationals. The critical move is to put the Greens last on every vote.

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      Ross

      I think the Trump situation in the USA has got more people thinking about politics , even on a superficial level. I doubt any other US primary circus has attracted so much attention.
      But Trump’s success (so far) must have many people thinking that “we don’t have continue with the status quo”, we can make a big change happen, we don’t have to listen to the pundits and the MSM as we can get what ever information we want elsewhere very quickly.
      Farange in the UK , to a lesser extent did “a Trump” last year.

      So I agree with TdF , the election in Australia will be interesting to watch.

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      • #
        Richard Ilfeld

        Normally,only a few of us vote in things like primaries, & only half or so in the general election. This, and a media biased towards sensationalism, provides leverage for zealots. Ordinary Joe or Jane is mostly nose to the grindstone keeping life going until the general “things are bad” notion becomes “my personal future is not good”.

        There are two possible outcomes. In most (and mostly authoritarian) societies, an external enemy is identified, war is undertaken, patriotism is amplified,and the regime is saved (often even if the war is lost).

        In more modern societies the “war” is sometimes economic, or social, but there are still millions of “real” war dead and displaced around the world.

        In the few societies that have managed peaceful government changes, you get sea changes; new parties, new alliances, a new social compact.

        We shouldn’t forget history — because very often the labels for things remain even if the content has changed 100%, perhaps because changing the meaning of emotionally charged words is a favored form of political deception.

        To me this is the common thread between the frustration Jo has explained, the trump & sanders circus, Brexit, and Syria. Ordinary folks have crossed the line from being basically optimistic about their & their children’s future to a conviction that our “leaders” are screwing it up and it’s time for a more major change than policy tweaks can provide.

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    toorightmate

    With apologies to AA:
    My name is toorightmate and I am a Delcon.

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    Robber

    Off topic, but did you see Kitty Flanagan on the Weekly with Charlie Pickering last night on the ABC? Seemed very non PC for the ABC as she took over the town of Penguin on the north coast of Tasmania and declared herself King so she could solve climate change. She then issued decrees to the town folk – no cars, lights out at 11pm, no fossil fuels, can only eat beef on Fridays, and at a town meeting the people revolt and throw her out. Starts at about 25 minutes. Is that the first time a comedian has been allowed to satarise climate change? Tom Gleeson also interviewed Bill Shorten who said nothing, just smiled a lot.

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    Rick Will

    The banks have won. Modern economies have been financialised. It is something I have have seen emerge over the last 40 years. In fact for the last 10 years of my employment I went to the dark side. It has given me an insight into the practices.

    This is something Steve Keen modelled back in the 90s and demonstrates in clear detail in this recent clip here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaDRu9ZSNBA
    You can jump right up to 1:08 to get the salient bit and skip the model development although anyone interested in system modelling and macroeconomics will appreciate the whole video. This was just an outcome of the system. There was nothing sinister other than the banks being profit motivated.

    Malcolm Turnbull is a bankers poly. He has the ideal education and employment experience for it. No thinking liberal can vote for the party led by this man. If there is a buck in it for the banks he will be in favour of it – carbon trading scheme, negative gearing, asset price inflation, early access to super are all good for the banks

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    Jennifer king

    We joined ALA 12 months ago. LNP had their chance. They muffed it. No more. Love reading all the comments. If you vhange nothing ,nothing changes.

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    • #
      ianl8888

      We joined ALA 12 months ago

      Wonderful.

      Now,can you explain the actual health policy in real English, not academic Klingon, please ? ?

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    James

    I don’t get out much and I know at least 10 people, including myself, who voted Libaral in the last election who will not vote for Liberal while Turnbull is leader. Based on that alone I challenge the low percentage for “Much less likely”

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      Graeme No.3

      I on the other hand know at least 10 people who were against Abbott, and in favour of Turnbull, but I doubt that any of them will vote for him.

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    pat

    reminder – the Essential poll also asked:

    EssentialVision: Climate change policy
    Q The Labor Party recently announced their policy to tackle climate change which includes a target of reducing Australia’s carbon emissions by 45% by 2030 (compared to the Coalition Government’s target of 26-28%) and introducing an emissions trading scheme. Do you approve or disapprove of this policy?
    Those more likely to approve were Labor voters (76%), Greens voters (88%) and ***aged 18-34 (70%).
    http://www.essentialvision.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Essential-Report_160503.pdf

    ***how many 18-34-year-olds were polled is another matter, but how often does the CAGW crowd insist they have the MILLENNIALS on side?

    i have never believed that to be so, and the following sounds more realistic to me, given the indifference to CAGW of all the millennials i know:

    3 May: HuffPo: Are Millennials Cynical About Climate Change?
    These questions originally appeared on Quora – the knowledge sharing network where compelling questions are answered by people with unique insights.
    Answers by Fred Rich, Author of Getting to Green and Christian Nation. Environmentalist and lawyer, on Quora.
    Q: How can the environmental movement make better use of 21st century tech and culture?
    A: This is an important question. The environmental movement is not ideally configured for success in the 21st century. In 2012, the average age of members of Green groups was over 60. In 2012, the average age of members of The Nature Conservancy was 62, exactly the age of the people who were 20 at the time of the first Earth Day in 1970. Although Bill McKibben has made a valiant effort with 350.org, we have not succeeded in attracting and retaining a sufficient number of millennials and youth. There is much speculation about why, and I am interested to hear your views. But factors I have identified include a deep cynicism regarding politics and the possibility of progress, discouragement by all the failures to make progress on global warming, not being “joiners” by general disposition, and reluctance to accept “labels” (like environmentalist). All these can be overcome. But this will require the Green movement to change its culture to be more welcoming to younger people of all political persuasions, and this includes embracing a more interactive technology (not just top down email blasts) and a vision that is more hopeful (and acknowledges the critical role that future technological advance is likely to play in solving environmental problems)…
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/quora/are-millennials-cynical-a_b_9829024.html

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    Analitik

    OT – we need a bit of comic relief from all the heavy political talk
    Humorous Renewable Fantasy of the moment

    there was general agreement from speakers and from the floor that the focus on solar thermal had been too narrowly focused on electricity generation, without enough attention to its potential to provide heat for industrial use.

    Swinburne University Pro-Vice Chancellor Geoffrey Brooks, who heads the Future Manufacturing department, said CST could be used “wherever you need heat,” and an obvious example was in the mining sector and processing minerals.

    “My argument is, Australia’s ores are directly next to where the sun is hottest, so why not process the ores where the sun is, or where they happen to be digging them up,” he said

    Bwahahahaha

    Solar thermal can offer more than just electricity, experts say

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    Graeme No.3

    Collective Nouns

    A flock of hens
    A gaggle of geese
    A flamboyance of flamingoes
    A parcel of hogs
    A barrel of monkeys
    An unkindness of ravens
    A parliament of rooks
    A murder of crows
    A Talcum of turncoats.

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    Graeme No.3

    In ancient times the tribal leader had sacred status, which held while there was peace and plenty.
    Should troubles arise then he got the blame followed by sacrifice.

    In kingdoms the king was safe so long as every one was fed. Famine led to unrest and a change of king. Similarly in China the Emperor was expected to maintain order and food supplies. Failure meant unrest, civil war and a change of dynasty. The Imperial eunuchs and mandarins had to scramble to survive.

    We are currently in a depression, more severe that the great depression in the thirties. The effects are never shared equally, car ownership rose sharply in the 1930’s in the south of England, but not in the North, nor Scotland. When things turned really rough the Labour party split, and some formed a coalition with the Tories, others became communists or fascists. expect this depression to go on for at least another 10 years, marked by deflation which means less money in for governments but more money needed to pay existing debt. Malcolm T, Short-on Brains et al. will fail regardless how often they appear in selfies, and disappear down the plughole of history.

    We need to look to the longer term, if we still have one, after Talcum and/or the Shorten Green gangs have done their worst. Whether this is a new party or a revived one with a whole new set of principles I cannot say, and probably won’t be around to see. What I can foresee is that the Public Service will be shrunken, the Universities will be smaller in size and number, and the Greens will still be on the lunatic left, explaining that anything other than a warm sunny in the low 20′s is “proof” of man made climate change, and sillyfilly will still be silly.

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    • #
      ianl8888

      … the Public Service will be shrunken

      Agree with every statement except that. No one voluntarily gives up power (Hayden and Steele Hall excepted) and there is no way to make this happen. Sure the revenue will be down but the PS will still be grown by narcissists – that’s what they do.

      10

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        Graeme No.3

        ianl8888:

        The Public Service is the problem. By and large it is non-productive and it really shouldn’t be included in the GDP figures, except it disguises the problem.
        Yes, parts of it are desirable such as defence, although the management is horrendously expensive and actually detrimental to our ability to face threats. It is when you get to hospitals, social payments and education that it degenerates into an expensive farce. Years ago a doctor friend with a share in a private hospital pointed out that they had to charge a day rate minimum based on public hospital costs, which meant that the private hospital was making over 40% (gross before capital repayment). With all the extra bureaucrats added in the 25 years or more at State and Federal level I believe that a private hospital would be better than a gold mine. If Health were handed back to the States one layer would be unnecessary, possibly 2 (those passing paper back and forth with Canberra. Letting the Health Funds run some hospitals (free of most regulations) would provide some long overdue competition and might even lead to a bit of efficiency. (I speak as someone who turned up for a minor opporation and went home after 3 hours because of a basic stuff-up).
        As for Social Welfare it seems to be based on the fear of “losing clients” so it seems designed to prolongue dependency and encourage fiddling.
        I have forgotten the name of the public servant who cut the cost of the sector he managed by 70% and briefly attracted Maggie Thatcher’s attention before the bureaucrats saw him into the rest home.
        The EU employs 47000 bureaucrats to supervise all those who supposedly do the job. The pay rates are such that it is likely that a third take home more money that the PM of the UK (helped by special allowances, 13.5% tax rate etc.) No, a reduction in the size of the Public Service is necessary and must be enforced.

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    I don’t know what is the matter with all the support for ALA in these comments. From their website: “We are neither ‘believers’ nor ‘deniers’ when it comes to climate change.”

    So, playing the same old rubbish nonsense games that got us a Paris agreement. Further, they are clearly a front organisation. Members have NO say – they just get to vote yes and provide the numbers for registration as a party. All policy and all ruling members chosen by the ruling members. Be very wary of this mob.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      I emailed ALA and asked..

      “If an ETS or other carbon pricing was proposed by either Liberal or Labor.

      What would ALA vote.. For or against?”

      One word answer from them…

      AGAINST

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    Mike

    And now for something completely different:

    Citizens Electoral Council

    “Published on Apr 30, 2016

    On the show this week, Robert Barwick and Craig Isherwood discuss:
    1. Treasurer trapped by ‘bail-in’ lies
    2. $50 billion subs: no lack of money for war, create credit for peace”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1pqbPYTqgY

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    scaper...

    A hung Parliament is in the offing. If so, the Libs will be starved of funds. I doubt that Turnbull will be PM, let alone the leader of the Libs in opposition by year end.

    Powder remains dry till the right time.

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      el gordo

      Here are some recent numbers on CC.

      http://www.essentialvision.com.au/climate-change-policy

      There maybe up to 11% of the voting public who haven’t been brainwashed.

      It looks hopeless.

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      • #
        Sean McHugh

        The public are smart enough to not buy a Green car but too dumb to stop governments spending billions of dollars, of their money, on dud power. They are too dumb to see what it will do to their pockets and even their jobs. Renewable energy sounds nice, and that’s as far as they think before turning to the sports pages.

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      James Bradley

      Hope you’re right, scapes.

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  • #
    Another Ian

    Hmm!!

    If this doesn’t emerge as around #48

    Perth You’ve got a problem

    10

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    philthegeek

    Just watched the evisceration of Turnbull that was Shortens budget in reply speech. Dont worry about getting rid of Turnbull. Win, lose or draw the Libs will dump him after the election. All he ever had to offer was popularity / appeal and thats gone down in flames.

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      AndyG55

      The Libs desperately need to DUMP him BEFORE the election.

      He has proven, MANY TIMES, to be an absolute NON-ENTITY !

      “The 54″ should also resign on mass, and allow some people with an actual brain to stand for the Liberal party.

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    AndyG55

    Brilliant comment on BoltA by John of Gaunt

    VERY apt to Turnbull, and the Greens

    “If you’re on the far left, the “centre” is constantly moving towards you, but getting no closer. “

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    • #
      Ross

      Sorry, I don’t understand John of Gaunts comment, Andy.
      Does that mean the right is also moving towards the left, but getting no closer? Or is the ‘centre’ moving away from the right but getting closer? Seriously, what the…?
      It seems to me Turnbull is trying to move closer to the right is and shedding votes accordingly. The Delcon anti-Malcom vote would have showed up immediately after the coup, yes?
      So it must be the ‘centre’ that is wavering.
      ALA? Simply irrelevant.

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    ScotstsmaninUtah

    Weather, Underwear and Politics

    It takes a stronger Liberal Party to bring out higher standards in the Labor Party too. Right now, both sides think they can control the weather, and are switching leaders like last weeks underwear

    It is wise to treat all 3 of these subjects with a good deal of skepticism. None are 100% reliable or meet expectations and neither lasts very long….

    In the US. the candidates could be likened to a pair of fluffy Victoria Secret underwear , they look good on the model , but the reality is different when you get them home.

    As a Libertarian I think it is far more difficult to change the Political Party System than change the weather.

    10

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    pat

    just a glitch!

    5 May: PickeringPost: LOOKS LIKE THE ELECTORAL OFFICE HAS STUFFED UP AGAIN!
    So I called the AEC to ask for an explanation. After the usual run around, with press 1 for this and 2 for that, I finished up in the legal office asking how can this be. “Yes we know about that”, said someone called Brian, “yours is not the only phone call we have had”.
    “Okay” I replied. “When will you be pulling the TV ads and correcting the web page information?”
    “Oh we won’t be doing that”, Brian said. “You see that’s only an amendment and we are only authorised to publish the information in the original legislation.” “But it’s bloody wrong”, I said.
    “Yes I agree it IS (my emphasis) wrong.” Brian admitted. “Do you realise if voters follow the way you have framed the instructions it will favour the major parties?”, I asked. “Yes, it appears it will”, he said. “Maybe that’s the way they want it”, I thought as I hung up. And who will complain?
    It seems the AEC might have to re-run a Senate election across Australia and not just in WA like last time if this false information is allowed to stand!…
    http://pickeringpost.com/story/looks-like-the-electoral-office-has-stuffed-up-again-/6000

    3 May: The West: Andrew Tillett: Appeal may stop election
    The Liberal MP whom Malcolm Turnbull knifed to start his political career now hopes to stymie the Prime Minister’s ability to call an election for July 2…
    A central thrust of Mr King’s argument was the new rules allow voters to cast a ballot by one of three methods: by filling in just one party box above the line; filling in at least six party boxes above the line as officially advised on ballot papers and by the Electoral Commission; and numbering at least 12 squares below the line for individual candidates.
    But the Constitution requires Senators to be elected by a a single method applied uniformly across all States, Mr King said.
    https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/31505193/appeal-may-stop-election/

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    Sean McHugh

    Now watch Turnbull suck up even harder to the Left and make matters worse.

    10

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    Deano

    It might seem destructive to punish the Libs by voting against them and effectively voting Labor in, but on the other hand I don’t want to reward them with a vote either. A return to opposition is probably the only way to straighten them out. If returned ‘in his own right’, Turnbull will go PC mad and divide society with new laws pushing his trendy social agenda. If I wanted the Greens, I’d just vote Greens!

    The ALA might still be unpolished and prone to public gaffs but this might even be to their advantage now. Sure, Turnbull is smooth and charming and loved by the traditional media set but recent history of politicians has shown that media approved candidates like Obama, Rudd, Merkel, Gillard etc are a disaster. I won’t be voting Labor but I must admit, it appears they’ve tried to return to their old Hawke/Keating era boring-but-safe image and I can see it winning back their traditional fans. ‘Dagey Dad’ Shorten looks far more believable than oily insurance salesman Turnbull.

    The traditional media have spent so long controlling public opinion, they’ve developed a culture of believing their own propaganda and are unaware that the public has moved on.

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    philthegeek

    Result is rather predictable now. :(

    ALP win HoR. Not a huge majority but eminently workable enough for a full term after providing the speaker ship to a worthy who has done their time.

    Senate with Greens / Xeno BoP. ALP able to negotiate pretty much what they want through. They showed they could do that under Gillards hung parliament.

    Why?

    Because Turnbull waited too long and pissed off too many people he should have brought into tent.

    Lesson? Arrogant Barristers make crap politicians.

    Also, Morrison is a crap Treasurer. His budget isn’t the blatantly toxic disaster of 2014, but its timid at a time where they need bold, and basically a political suicide note. So many holes that they have presented for the ALP to mount attacks on, that WILL resonate out in punter land, they look like a confused mob of economic illiterates who couldn’t sell crack to an addict at discount rates. Very big FAIL, especially when the ALP machine is in such good shape and ready to rip the Libs a new one. Libs have totally underestimated their opponents.

    And remember. ALA support probably started to show up in the “Others” category in the polling some time ago which just isn’t changing much even as PUP support is being written out and redistributed. I don’t expect some surge from them to come to the rescue in the Senate. I’d keep an eye on Xeno’s mob as a not particularly dark horse. Night, Night .

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    Roy Hogue

    [UPDATE: A recap of the first Delcon post -- is it better to have a fake conservative government or a good conservative opposition? It's not productive to "blow up" a party out of spite, but if the Liberal base will vote Liberal no matter what the policy or principle, then it is utterly inevitable that the Liberals will move centre left and ignore the centre right. The current situation is not just bad for Liberals, it's bad for both sides. It takes a stronger Liberal Party to bring out higher standards in the Labor Party too. Right now, both sides think they can control the weather, and are switching leaders like last weeks underwear.]

    This is late in the history of this topic so maybe it won’t be seen by very many. But I’m struck by the similarity of the Australian situation and what’s happened in the U.S. since Donald Trump has locked in his hold on the Republican nomination.

    Now, conservative and middle of the road high public profile Republican leaders and voters are swearing they will not vote for Trump. The same question in different words is raised by this: Is it better to let Hillary take the Oval Office by standing on principle or would it be wiser to vote for Trump because whatever he might do he’s likely to take the country in a better direction and certainly likely to appoint better cabinet department heads and adopt a better foreign policy, even in spite of his inane comments up to now? And above everything, Trump in office would give the Republican party time to think, time to adjust, time to see what Trump will actually do. I don’t like him even a little tiny bit but I know my hand is forced and will vote for Trump.

    The players and the circumstances aren’t the same but the problem is. What causes people to fail miserably to think ahead to the consequences of what they do, especially the consequences of how they vote?

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    JohnL

    To me our Mal is a fraud.the sooner he is exposed for what he is the sooner the LNP can move forward without him.

    00