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The original meaning of “denier” was those who reject a religion

Rajendra Pachauri, IPCC, Wind Poer, Climate Religion, Denier

..

In 1475, the word “Denier” meant those who did not accept the church doctrine.

Five hundred years later, not much has changed.

“According to the Oxford English Dictionary, OED, the term “denier” — starting with its coinage in 1475, during the language’s transition period — has traditionally been used in a theological context, as in “Deniers of Christ Jesus.”

Yale Climate Media Forum

The use of “Denier” in a theological sense continued for hundreds of years. Here it is in 1835:

“A denier of our Lord’s divinity will argue that it was an exclamation of surprise and ignorance; he makes it, in fact, a sort of modern  profaneness.

The Literary and Theological Review, Leonard Woods Junior, 1835. p449

In 2015, anyone who thinks that leeks and lightbulbs won’t stop floods in Peru is a “denier”. If you don’t accept that your air-conditioner causes war in Syria, or that sharks can protect us from heatwaves, get used to being referred to as a mindless denying apostate.

I’ve put in excerpts from an 1840 book below. Breathe deeply:

“FOURTH. Point out the difficulties of Atheism

I. Difficulty. One of the fundamental and fatal difficulties of Atheism is that it is founded upon the denial of a first truth.

2. It cannot be denied without admitting it. The denial implies a denier; the denial is the effect of which the denier is the cause.

4. The denier knows that he states a falsehood in the denial: for if he did not believe in causality he would not and could not attempt the denial.

Skeletons, a course of theological lectures. Rev. Finney, vol 1, 1840

 

 

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162 comments to The original meaning of “denier” was those who reject a religion

  • #
    turnedoutnice

    Funny that: I always thought it was a measure of the weight of a given length of fibre, often used to define how naked female legs appear when covered by stockings!

    300

  • #
    doubting dave

    So in this description of a denier, if you denounce God you admit he exists, because you can’t denounce something that does not exist. and because you deny God you are a devil worshiper , so we climate science deniers are Satanists .

    281

  • #
    doubting dave

    I meant science Satanists . Jo i’ve a feeling you and the mods could be very busy during this article

    30

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  • #
    F. Ross

    I thought “denial” was a river in Egypt. And that “denier” was the Bostonian pronunciation of “denial”.
    :-)

    170

  • #
    graphicconception

    Everyone is a denier. Deny it if you can!

    101

  • #
    Manfred

    As we all have come to recognise, the word ‘Denier‘ was employed more recently by the climate desperados in their effort to elevate dubious and questionable articles of Green faith into an institutionalised indisputable fact.

    This is of course an inversion of reality.

    Normally, historical fact becomes culturally institutionalised as an incontestable article of faith, where to ‘deny’ is considered heresy of the highest order, given the wide implications and potential consequences of suspending belief. This response is in its way a cultural safety mechanism.

    The desperados switched fact for faith. They inverted the usual installation of cultural values from fact in order to forcibly ingrain their destructive credo.

    Green iconoclasm knows no bounds as this noxious statement made by James E. Hansen illustrates — Climate, Coal and Crematoria

    If we cannot stop the building of more coal-fired power plants, those coal trains will be death trains – no less gruesome than if they were boxcars headed to crematoria, loaded with uncountable irreplaceable species.”

    They betray themselves at every turn.

    71

  • #
    Rereke Whakaaro

    Personally, I reject, out of hand, any suggestion that I am not an inconsistent denier.

    90

  • #
    Anton

    Steady on Jo, in the 15th century there was a considerable difference between those who did not accept church doctrine and those who did not accept Jesus Christ. The Inquisition went mainly after alternative (and peaceable) Christian movements such as the Lollards (in England) and the Waldenses (around the Alps). You can google them.

    100

    • #

      The Catholic prelates dug up poor old Wycliffe’s body after he had died and burnt it, scattering his ashes over the River Swift to give him an eternal watery grave.

      I can imagine Christopher Monckton being dug up and burnt at a future delphi-technique Climate Summit while chanting some incantation about Gaia if they can’t get the poor bugger while he’s still alive.

      Not much changes, but we should all remember – as you have stated – that the #1 group discriminated against and killed by religious Christian zealotry were other Christians, and were for political reasons rather than religious reasons (religion being simply an easy excuse – just like ‘science’ – for tyrants to get what they want). Science and religion are just words at the end of the day, both being putty in the hands of the beholder.

      Considering that the closest thing to tolerance for ALL regardless of their own proclaimed ‘truths’ – be it science or religion: maybe they will cross paths some happy day – came out of a pool of blood during the reign of Oliver Cromwell, who even had a soft spot for Quakers who were everyone’s reviled pacifists and whipping boys in their day, says a lot for the future .. which always repeats!

      Do we all think that the authoritarian technocrats (which is what they are) who have gotten onto this Carbon Bandwagon are going to get off of it without showing us their TRUE colors? (Green shirts = Brown, in reality) Maybe the Christian Right in the US will give them a run for their money, because the so called ‘liberal’ and ‘progressive’ (transgressive) left sure as hell want to be slaves under a technocracy – they’re begging for it. Religion vs Religion: perhaps it is just fate, and perhaps the scientific way to look at the word TRUTH, is that it is relative to personal bias and nothing else; always has been; always will be.

      20

  • #
    Anton

    When was Moses in denial?

    91

  • #
    James Bradley

    Getting silly now.

    Bring back the Griss.

    70

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      I agree, it has become silly, and the Griss was certainly an expert in the field.

      The whole concept of right and wrong, as absolutes, is silly, and quickly decends into circular arguments. In fact the whole question of religion starts from the premise that there can only be two states, Right or Wrong, Belief or Denial.

      Being a person of occasional rational thought, I much prefer the middle ground of sceptism. Not having to make any committment, one way or another, has its own feeling of security about it. And the journey is often a lot more fun, than reaching the destination.

      142

      • #
        PeterS

        True, in religion there are no absolute rights and wrongs because by definition religion is an organized collection of beliefs. However, so is a lot in what passes as factual science, such as the Big Bang theory and evolution. No one here today has witnessed either event, and instead judgements are made on the evidence that’s available to infer what might have happened, not necessarily on what actually did happen. There is no reason to believe with 100% certainty that such theories can’t be proven false and new theories come to the fore. They are not absolutes. Perhaps if we ever invent a time machine we can prove what actually did happen, and be shocked to find out we were wrong, as usual. Time will tell (pun intended).

        70

    • #
      theGriss

      I can’t help it if you guys never understood my meaning ;-)

      Jo asked me not to post unless I could “moderate” my own posts.

      Sorry Jo, but that was never going to happen.

      the Griss always says it how he sees it, with the words he chooses to use.

      121

      • #
        Frank

        Ah Griss, I was wondering what happened to you.

        10

      • #
        Rereke Whakaaro

        Griss,

        You just moderated one of your own posts.

        At least, it seems pretty moderate to me. Four lines of prose, and nobody offended.

        I think you might be an imposter Griss, and not the real Griss, at all.

        20

        • #
          theGriss

          You didn’t read the first line properly. ;-)

          10

        • #
          theGriss

          Anyway, its summer, my torn thigh muscle has recovered, and I’m now either at work or down the beach. Life’s tough sometimes. ;-)

          And there no trolls here worth baiting, only the donkey and the leaf.

          Better things to do. :-)

          So adios for now. Maybe when winter comes around, I will return.

          51

          • #
            Yonniestone

            See you this winter, a chilly climate suits a troubled soul and you my friend are very troubled. :)

            20

            • #
              AndyG55

              Sounds a normal laid-back Aussie to me. :-)

              Work -> beach

              I recall he is in Cronulla area.. The veiwage is great down there. ;-)

              21

          • #
            Aaron M

            Aww it was good seeing you. You are right about the lack of worthy opponents. Evidence of further tide turning?

            10

        • #
          saveenergy

          I was offended !!!

          00

    • #
      Geophil

      Agreed James, bring back the GRISS as I miss his insightful and cutting repartee. Really does allow one to have a good chuckle at some warmists’ expense.

      62

  • #
    Tom O

    I have always said that the most difficult religion in the world to belong to is atheism. As stated, to deny the existence is to admit the existence, thus a true atheist can not mention or acknowledge anything relative to religion or he or she fail their own. To that end, most people claiming to be atheists tend to consistently attack the existence of God or Christ or whatever figurehead, thus acknowledges the existence in the first place or there is nothing to attack

    But once a word is coined, it morphs, but the principle of the word tends to remain, thus denying climate change requires the acceptance that it exists, and no one that I am aware of actually denies climate or that climate changes. It then falls that denying AGW is an admission that it exists. Thus, I am a refuter or a questioner, not a denier, when it comes to AGW, since I don’t accept that it exists as stated.

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    • #
      doubting dave

      So sceptics are actually agnostics then Tom ,it doesn’t matter if you are even 99.99999% certain that God or CAGW does not exist because you’ve left a tiny fraction of doubt in your mined that you are might be wrong, so sceptics are not deniers they are agnostics .

      41

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Denier only works with 100% rejection. Most thinking & reasonable people will be open to an argument, therefore “denier” is an emotive word, not based on logic or reason as someone can be a 99.999% “denier” which means the bulk of the population cant be.

        Ergo – CAGW denialism is purely a political construct……

        Ergo – CAGW is politcal, not scientific.

        QED

        31

        • #
          tom0mason

          OriginalSteve,

          Good point, also of note is that believers in AGW believe that human have a huge effect on the weather/climate system. They deny the dominance of natural variation in the matter.

          21

    • #
      Wijnand

      As stated, to deny the existence is to admit the existence…

      So by that logic one cannot deny the existance of ghosts? Of the Lochness monster? Of Yeti’s? Peter Pan? A rational Greenpeace campaigner? ;-)

      130

    • #
      Graham

      Sorry Tom O you are not quite correct: if you are an atheist and:
      When asked “Do you believe in god” and you answer “No” you are admitting the existence of god.
      However, if instead you simply answer “there is no god” then you are NOT admitting the existence of god. You have denied the existence of a god.

      30

    • #
      Winston

      Tom,

      As you may or may not recall from my previous posts on the subject, I am an avowed atheist. But I will say now, without the slightest risk of confusion or ambiguity, that God indeed exists, as does Allah, Aten, Zeus, Brahman, Baha, Waheguru or any other iteration of the supreme deity.

      He/She/It exists as a pattern of neural impulses in a specific engram (that varies from one individual to another, and evolves over time) deep within the brains of believers. To say God et al. does not exist is to deny the existence of these neural pathways, to deny the reality of human memory and intellect.

      How else would you expect an extra corporeal presence to “exist” without shape or form or body? This “existence” can manifest itself in our present day reality through the thoughts, actions and behaviours of believers who act under the guidance of this, dare I say, divine being, or at least their interpretations of that supreme deity’s guidance at the very least. Perhaps all thought, human and otherwise, is actually what constitutes “God”.

      So, it is undeniable therefore that God, in some way, shape or form, does in fact exist, regardless of what atheists like me prefer to believe. It is somewhat gratifying to know that when Richard Dawkins is debating the existence of God, within Dawkins’ own cerebral cortex God does actually exist in that particular instant. The irony is delicious. Now THAT is a denier!

      60

      • #
        KinkyKeith

        What I like about this site!!!!!!

        Pieces like this.

        10

      • #
        Raven

        As you may or may not recall from my previous posts on the subject, I am an avowed atheist

        Hmmm . . personally I’d be a little troubled by the notion of being an avowed atheist. To me it conjures up notions of some sort of active club like participation and hence, the likelihood that people do indeed see atheism as some form of alternative religion.

        It’s important to point out that atheism is an absence of belief. Therefor the question of existence or non-existence doesn’t arise. Therefor obviously, denial is not possible.

        Point taken about the manifestation of god via neural pathways etc., but how is that different to the existence of unicorns or leprechauns? Does discussion of leprechauns provide a basis for existence?

        10

  • #
    Robert O

    In a reverse of logic believers of the AGW theory are deniers that the climate changes due to natural causes, as Roman and medieval times and the several ice ages have shown, aren’t they?

    111

  • #
    HAS

    “The original meaning of ‘denier’ was those who reject a religion”

    Still is.

    111

    • #
      doubting dave

      True HAS , but my elder sister is a committed Pentecostal christian, to her all other religions are false, so does that make her a 99.9 % denier/ atheist .

      30

  • #
    Dave in the states

    The modern use of the term and the use of the term by the Church hundreds of years ago is/was done to help win an argument of which the answer remains in question. They are constructing a mechanism where it is implied that the question is settled, when it is not settled.

    If one doesn’t have a sure knowledge then one must operate on faith to a greater or lesser degree. If one has a sure knowledge then faith is not required. One can only deny that which he knows is true.

    Do we know with certainty that human co2 emissions is causing catastrophic climate change? Certainly not. Indeed the empirical evidence indicates otherwise.

    141

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      In the spirit of Python…..

      “This…is an ex parrot….!!”

      20

    • #
      King Geo

      “Do we know with certainty that human co2 emissions is causing catastrophic climate change? Certainly not. Indeed the empirical evidence indicates otherwise”

      Also in the spirit of Python…

      “All statements to the effect that CO2 emissions are causing Catastrophic Climate Change are from now on inoperative – correction – make that have never been operative.”

      Just like that “Norwegian Blue” parrot in Python, the “Theory of AGW” has always been dead and was only alive in the eyes of the scoundrels (IPCC) selling it.

      31

  • #
    Graeme No.3

    If these people are so worried about us ‘denying’ their doctrine the solution is some demonstration that they are divine.
    Since they are gathered together in Paris I suggest they all walk a kilometre on the Seine, downstream or upstream if preferred. Then we would definitely know that they are in Seine.

    That should get a red thumb from Rereke.

    170

  • #
    TdeF

    Who can deny the divinity of Al Gore, deny the truth spoken by prophet Tim Flannery or deny the holy science of man made global warming as laid down in the reports of the IPCC? Only a pagan, ignorant of the generosity of Gaia who cares for her children even though they are made from the evil pollutant carbon dioxide. So they can breathe, fart and ruminate and they are forgiven but those who deny money, truckloads of cash to the United Nations and merchant bankers are the evil ones who will be denied entry to the religious Conventions of Paris. So they will miss out on the cash. Serves them right.

    91

  • #
    Ruairi

    The Emperor struts in a prance,
    Quite naked this winter in France,
    That no ‘climate denier’,
    Will see his attire,
    Means warmists have had their last chance.

    230

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    I’m reminded once again of that old schoolyard taunt, “Sticks and stones may break my bones but names can never hurt me,” that was used against name callers so many years ago.

    If they choose to call me a denier I’m more likely to wear it as a badge of honor.

    Denier, I fear thee not. It’s as empty as a shell you find on the beach, it’s inhabitant long gone with only the shell remaining to remind you that life was once there but is no more.

    80

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      To be a true denier, you have to weigh 1 kilogram per 20.8 cubic metres, no more and no less.

      It is a Standard International Unit.

      Hey, I don’t make the rules …

      20

      • #

        Rereke Whakaaro November 25, 2015 at 12:49 pm

        “To be a true denier, you have to weigh 1 kilogram per 20.8 cubic metres, no more and no less. It is a Standard International Unit.”

        Only if Deniers have Mommes ;-) (silk Mommes)!
        You spout of density not weight? Only nothing and the atmosphere both ‘can/cannot’ weigh a kilogram, as a kilogram is never a weight!! How many Newtons force downward only, of what?

        20

      • #
        Raven

        It is a Standard International Unit.

        Denier:
        A former French coin, equal to one twelfth of a sou, which was withdrawn in the 19th century.


        How fitting . . .
        We don’t need anyone to pick up on the “sou” word . . OK? ;-)

        00

  • #
    el gordo

    The political wing of the Denialati accept that it is what it is.

    ‘Godwin’s law (or Godwin’s rule of Nazi analogies) is an Internet adage asserting that “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches, ​that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism.’

    wiki

    30

    • #
      jorgekafkazar

      Godwin’s Law is inconsequential. It has no more validity than Jorge’s Law™, which states, “If you stand at Hollywood and Vine long enough, a red vehicle will pass by.” This law, like Godwin’s, addresses the usefulness of red vehicles, not their rectitude or lack thereof.

      50

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  • #
    pat

    from our most fanatical CAGW religionists in the MSM over the past 24 HOURS ALONE, not taking into account what Fran’s Breakfast, AM, etc might be serving up as I type this comment, or articles that haven’t shown up in my quick search!

    ABC:

    Paris climate talks: Tim Flannery optimistic global agreement will be reached
    Record temperatures turn up the heat on the Paris climate summit
    Direct Action auction winner Wattly hits out at government for lacking real climate change action
    WA group represents Indigenous Australia at UN climate change conference
    Weather-linked disasters kill 600000 in 20 years; report shows why climate deal ‘so important’, UN says
    Beyond Coal: Locals drive effective campaign against US power stations
    Report: 90 Percent of Disasters Are Weather-Related

    Fairfax:

    Climate change will trigger the world’s greatest refugee crisis
    ‘Captain’s call’ plea as more CSIRO job cuts loom on eve of PM’s address to Paris climate summit
    Climate change a risk to retirement savings
    World’s top miners risk $14b of earnings on carbon cost, CDP says
    ‘You’re the Voice’: the message Australian climate change group 1 Million Women is taking to Paris
    Is your share portfolio ready for climate change?
    Global finance giant turns back on coal
    Savings add up for household solar

    someone might be able to access this CAGW-religionist-headlined piece by former ABC/Fairfax writer, Saville, & excerpt a few bits for our entertainment (registration required):

    24 Nov: Crikey: Margot Saville: Climate denier Ian Plimer takes on the people’s Pope
    http://www.crikey.com.au/2015/11/24/climate-denier-ian-plimer-takes-on-the-peoples-pope/?google_editors_picks=true

    51

    • #
      Richard Barnett

      Pat,
      I read the comments from the AGW sheep that dwell at that liberal arts site. I don’t think that confusing them with scientific facts would get them to repent and change religions.

      51

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      I always find the media is “pumped” close to an event they want positive propaganda for at the time.

      When the odoius media retention laws went into effect thsi year, within days one of the spook agencies thundered ( as expected right on time ) a “grave” warning about an impending cyber “hacking crisis” based on some terrorist-sponsored tech-based conflagration, which never seems to have eventuated…..I guess all is politics….

      Hard to work out where the Ministry of Truth ends and the media begins….

      Funny that…..

      20

    • #
      jorgekafkazar

      Tim Flannely is also being optimistic when he expects that anyone gives an aerobatic assignation what he thinks.

      50

    • #
      gigdiary

      “Tim Flannery optimistic global agreement will be reached”

      Given that all his predictions and all previous climate summits have failed, this will just be more egg on his face.

      10

  • #
    pat

    ***small sample size study author claims small sample size study may have been responsible for claiming there was a PAUSE:

    25 Nov: UK Daily Mail:Cheyenne Macdonald: Global warming is NOT taking a hiatus: New study finds that there is ‘no evidence’ to support a pause in global warming
    New study analyzed ***40 peer-reviewed articles over 15 year period
    The articles did not share any agreed upon definition of ‘pause’ in warming
    Researchers say claims may be due to small sample size in studies
    The team from the University of Bristol was led by Professor Stephan Lewandowsky of Bristol’s School of Experimental Psychology and the Cabot Institute, and analysed 40 peer-reviewed articles published between 2009 and 2014.
    In the 40 articles, there was no agreement on when it began, and how long it lasted, showing no conclusive definition of the global warming ‘hiatus.’
    ‘Our study raises the question: why has so much research been framed around the concept of a ‘hiatus’ when it does not exist?’ says Professor Lewandowsky.
    ‘The notion of a ‘pause’ or ‘hiatus’ demonstrably originated outside the scientific community, and it likely found entry into the scientific discourse because of the constant challenge by contrarian voices that are known to affect scientific communication and conduct,’ he says.
    ***The problem, he says, may in part stem from conclusions drawn from a small sample size…
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3332328/Global-warming-NOT-taking-hiatus-New-study-finds-no-evidence-support-pause-global-warming.html

    21

    • #
      AndyG55

      The only warming in the last 37 years was from the, non-CO2 related El Nino around 1998.

      Any and all warming in the GISS/NOAA/et al surface record is due in a small part to UHI effects and homogenisation, and to a LARGE amount of data fabrication and tampering.

      We have seen that Lewandopey LUVS this sort of data malpractice. (its all he has)

      His previous papers have been full of it. ;-)

      122

  • #
    PeterS

    Everyone is a denier of something so I don’t understand where this argument is going. It’s a sort of circular argument, and to be honest a waste of time.

    30

  • #
    pat

    24 Nov: WaPo: Lisa Rein: NOAA chief tells lawmaker: No one will ‘coerce the scientists who work for me’
    In response to a ***threat from House Science Committee Chairman Lamar Smith (R-Tex.) to subpoena Commerce Secretary Penny Pritzker, the head of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration told Smith in a letter Friday that her staff will not be influenced by political interference.
    “I have not or will not allow anyone to manipulate the science or coerce the scientists who work for me,” Administrator Kathryn Sullivan wrote.
    “If the committee doubts the integrity of the study,” Sullivan wrote, “it has the tools it needs to commission a competing scientific assessment.”…
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/federal-eye/wp/2015/11/24/noaa-chief-to-lawmaker-on-climate-change-inquiry-i-will-not-allow-anyone-to-coerce-the-scientists-who-work-for-me/

    31

  • #
    Planning Enginner

    is the arguement that on climate risk we should”trust” the majority of scientists within the specific field of climate science and disregard others with outside expertise or knowledge, similar to the arguement that when it comes to a supreme being we should “trust” the majority of theologians and not be persuaded by any arguments from outside that fold?

    82

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      That pretty much sums it up.

      We are interviewing university students at present, in an attempt to find a couple of Interns for the summer.

      One of the questions we ask them, concerns their understanding of what effect Climate Change might have, in regard to the way that people live their lives.

      Tolkien would be proud of the answers – pure fantasy.

      61

  • #
    LukesAreWrongToo

    HUGE NASA FRAUD EXPOSED

    “Ederer reports not long ago retired geologist and data computation expert Professor Dr. Friedrich Karl Ewert began looking at the data behind the global warming claims, and especially the datasets of NASA’s Goddard Institute of Space Studies (GISS).

    Ewert painstakingly examined and tabulated the reams of archived data from 1153 stations that go back to 1881 – which NASA has publicly available – data that the UN IPCC uses to base its conclusion that man is heating the Earth’s atmosphere through the burning of fossil fuels. According to Ederer, what Professor Ewert found is “unbelievable”:

    From the publicly available data, Ewert made an unbelievable discovery: Between the years 2010 and 2012 the data measured since 1881 were altered so that they showed a significant warming, especially after 1950. […] A comparison of the data from 2010 with the data of 2012 shows that NASA-GISS had altered its own datasets so that especially after WWII a clear warming appears – although it never existed.”

    Ederer writes that Ewert particularly found alterations at stations in the Arctic. Professor Ewert randomly selected 120 stations from all over the world and compared the 2010 archived data to the 2012 data and found that they had been tampered to produce warming.

    [SNIP, a bit long and people need to visit the link - or better Notrickszone where it originated - Jo]

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  • #
    Manfred

    It seems that I’ve been surprisingly moderated out of existence earlier today, apparently for highlighting the inversion of fact and faith by the climate looters!

    Historical fact becomes institutionalised as a cultural icon of faith. It provides a cultural siren of sorts. When the eco-marxists attempt to install faith as fact, and use ‘denier’ ‘coal train’ and other similar references to borrow from the cultural horror, this merely serves to show that they are cultural iconoclasts with no respect for or piety toward anything considered sacrosanct. They invert the usual societal process by which certain experiences and knowledge become sentinel and valuable.

    They betray themselves at every turn.

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  • #
    KinkyKeith

    While having a break this morning I listened to a news report on a female promoter of a

    “women against Global Warming” type lobby here in Australia.

    It had all the gloss of the usual left meme with the lady at the centre of the publicity

    having come across the idea in her own head in a blinding flash of inspiration.

    She just knew that Australian women needed a voice for their warming concerns.

    A Little help was provided by another friend who has links to the music industry

    and it wasn’t long before a John Farnham hit, I think it was “your the Voice” was

    selected as the anthem for this new movement.

    I was struck by the certainty of this woman in pursuit of this noble cause.

    No need to worry about science , she was absolutely focused on the media path.

    Christina Figuerres has heard the remake of the JF song and approves.

    No science was mentioned in this news item.

    Another media item experienced over the last few days is the White Ribbon day.

    In early quick promos for this it seemed to be a day to support men but has since morphed into its full stature.

    It is today now fully explained as a day to protest against the violence of men against women,

    ie domestic violence, and not a support day for men.

    Both of the media issues above used a technique of getting group support by couching the problem in terms that undeniably

    need our best wishes, eg saving the planet and helping men, but the real problem is not touched.

    The real problem in item 1 is that the solution to the global arming pandemic is to

    GET THE TRUTH ABOUT THE SCIENCE OF MAN MADE GLOBAL WARMING.

    The real problem in item 2 is to stop all violence in families.

    It is not hard to acknowledge the obvious size and strength differences between the sexes

    but there is unfortunately violence in both physical and emotional terms coming from both sides and THAT is the problem.

    A blanket has been thrown over the issue of violence and men are the sole problem; apparently.

    The only solution is to make violent or abusive people from both sexes more responsible for the damage they cause.

    This needs a community that can be tough at times but understanding enough to know that we all go over the mark at times

    and need support and guidance.

    NO GUIDANCE comes from the media, it is a source of constant manipulation that simply adds self righteous concepts

    of victimization and victims “rights” to the already confused combatants.

    The point of all this? The media interwoven with half baked politics and advertising and political and personal forces is a potent and explosive force in our lives.

    Unfortunately is still doesn’t seem to provide much truth or guidance in our lives and but occasionally, almost by accident things slip through.

    Some years back the media reported on the British riots in which the father of a young Indian fellow killed

    by a rioter was able to put aside his personal grief and make a plea to stop the violence; a remarkable man.

    Another was an Iraqi man talking about the death of his daughter during the war there.

    The most recent was this from the ashes of the Paris atrocity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ-1iA-56k0

    That is hard to deny.

    It must be evidence of an extraordinary human being.

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      i find your formatting almost impossible to read.

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        AndyG55

        you poor little thing. !

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        KinkyKeith

        I don’t deny that I am happy you find it impossible to read, you probably wouldn’t find anything useful there anyhow.

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        • #

          KK… take it or leaf it (hahah). Anyway, others may like it so my comment, which might be unique to me, can be taken as just a description of my experience. I find it hard to follow a flow of ideas where each sentence is a paragraph. The spacing makes it hard for my eyes to orient to the start of the correct next line further increasing the time between reading each sentence and therefore further negatively affecting my comprehension of the arguement. It reads more like a series of disconnected dot points. This seems hardest where sentences take up two lines.

          Plenty of material there for AndyG to make many of his never to be forgotten classic jokes.

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            AndyG55

            KK.. use three or four sentences, no more than 1 line….. for Gees sake.

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            AndyG55

            And I know you keep a file of them, Gee.

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            KinkyKeith

            Interesting criticicm G.
            You must allow two things which I can’t deny.
            First it was written early in the morning while taking a break from the heat in my outside job.
            Second, you are dealing here with a scientist, not a skilled wordsmith of the arty type although I do profess to be a reasonable adept at basic French Langue and a very very basic, but functional grasp of Vietnamese.
            Always looking for good comment and this seems interesting. I have seen so many posts where there is no line spacing and the writing is so dense it looks like a blob of congealed CO2 stuck to the u n building windows in New York. CO2 does become very unpredictable in the winters there.

            KK LF et LV
            BSc (Met) and BSc (Neuroscience)

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              KinkyKeith

              ps. Forgot point 2.
              After 5 in the afternoon I drink things; a recent habit born of desperation. Following a comment by Will J who is not sure of his native tongue: http://joannenova.com.au/2015/10/new-science-10-whatever-controls-clouds-controls-the-climate/#comment-1751710
              This afternoon I splurged mightily and went from 36 a bottle to 95.
              Yes Will: GLENFIDDICH.
              I could have had three times the amount of some reasonable brandy or about 32 bottles of my favorite semillion sauvignon or cab merlot from Dan Brown for the same price.
              So my compositions vary in flavour from morning to night.

              KK

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              • #
                Gee Aye

                I prefer the drink excuse to the science one, unless you know something?

                GEE Bsc(Hons) , MSc, Ph.D, LLB and this and that

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              • #

                KinkyKeith November 25, 2015 at 5:06 pm

                “ps. Forgot point 2.
                After 5 in the afternoon I drink things; a recent habit born of desperation. Following a comment by Will J who is not sure of his native tongue: ”

                Happens lots round here! How does one check for a native tongue? Does one need a native doctor?

                “Yes Will: GLENFIDDICH.”

                Now you are really hooked! I remember the Dewar’s White Label billboard with the sweet young thing holding only a towel in front. With the caption, “You once thought these were yuck too! Dewar’s”

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            • #
              Gee Aye

              Pat is the congealed writer and I said as much years ago. Online comments, as Andy says are easiest read as short paragraphs with clear paragraph separation.

              Double line spacing

              Is good for…

              Making a point stand out

              10

              • #
                AndyG55

                I like double line space because my eyes are a bit iffy.

                I really struggle to read a whole heap of single space stuff.

                (and I use a 26″ screen with IE size at 150% !)

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          el gordo

          In journalism school they teach students to put the whole story in the first two paragraphs, as you try to hook the reader into finishing the story.

          Dot points are OK, but a two sentence paragraph is best when communicating with an international audience. Just sayin’

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    Al Gore is the last Prophet of Gaia and Gaia is the only true God. Who can deny the divinity of Gaia but the Deniers. Tim Flannery, Prince Charles and David Suzuki are Disciples of Gaia and her doctrine of the Holy Science of the evils of man-made global warming as laid down in the divinely Gaia inspired reports of the IPCC. Deniers are pagans, who are ignorant of the revelations of Gaia and do not care for their children. Deniers emit the evil Satanic pollutant carbon dioxide. Deniers fail to pay the Jizzyah to the United Nations and the Merchant Bankers. Deniers are in league with the Evil One Satan and will be denied entry to the Garden of Gaia after they die.

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    Dariusz

    The “Denier” relates not just to a GW crap but also to any open debate about politics, religion, history or individual thinking. To discuss some of them is a quick way to loose friends as I found out last night (again) when I attempted to talk to a young German and Russian about recent history. In the end was the fool, I was the oppressor and I should look at my own nation,s aggressive history (Poland) to even have a conversation. Even after 70 years still can,t talk reasonably about it.
    It seems that the mental anaesthesia or denial is a normal gear for the vast majority of people.

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      OriginalSteve

      The lefites get all upset when you *correctly* call them “seagulls”….

      Hate it….

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        Nasty sailors do. Pitch up bread pieces and French fries, to the Gulls. Then pitch up Alka-Seltzer! Watch them increase in size, then pitch over into the sea! Some claim they have seen one asplode in the air! That’s gullible! ;-)

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    pat

    KinkyKeith -

    24 Nov: Age: Deborah Snow: ‘You’re the Voice’: the message Australian climate change group 1 Million Women is taking to Paris
    Natalie Isaacs, founder of Australian women’s climate movement 1 Million Women, was facing a dilemma. The former cosmetics entrepreneur turned climate activist had embraced the suggestion of collaborator Andreas Smetana, that it would be an “amazing idea” to create an anthem – a call to action – in the run up to the international Paris climate summit, due to start at the end of this month.
    But for weeks they couldn’t come up with the right song. Then a day at the beach with a friend who had music industry connections threw up what seemed like the perfect solution: a reworking of John Farnham’s powerful 1980s hit, You’re the Voice…
    “When I listened to the words, it’s a timeless song, perfect for this and the message is so strong. I just set out to get that song. I spoke to the writers, the publishers, and by July finally got the rights.”…
    Singers Deni Hines, rock legend Wendy Matthews, country artist Melinda Schneider​ and Aboriginal singer and actor Ursula Yovich were willing recruits, as was actor Claudia Karvan. The result, with a striking video featuring images of women and girls of all ages and professions, will launch on Wednesday with the singers performing the song live at Sydney’s climate change mass rally on Sunday.
    A preview clip reached the Bonn office of UN climate chief Christiana Figueres​ late last week, eliciting her endorsement of it as a “powerful message of love, hope and healing’. Ms Isaacs has also won permission to present the song at the Paris summit Gender Day on December 8…
    Ms Figueres, too, has campaigned hard to raise awareness of the vital role women play in combating climate change…
    Women in the developing world were “disproportionately affected” by climate change, she told Fairfax Media…
    Deni Hines told Fairfax she had been drawn to the project because “climate change is an urgent topic that needs to be acted upon before it’s too late. I live on this planet called Earth, and I like it here. Earth really seems to work for me. I can’t see too many other planets out there to live on.”…
    http://www.theage.com.au/environment/im-the-voice-the-message-australian-climate-change-group-1-million-women-is-taking-to-paris-20151124-gl6b4o.html

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      KinkyKeith

      That’s the item Pat.

      Have no personal concerns regarding any of the participants, they are, no doubt, well intentioned but operating

      outside of their area of expertise, unless you are in self promotion; think politics, selling music

      downloads, or promoting your “social and organising” skills.

      We are all victims of media overload and we cant deny that.

      A promo for the White Ribbon day on radio discussed a male who poured domestic bleach down his partner’s throat.

      This ACT was labelled as “domestic violence’.

      Am I missing something?? That is attempted murder.

      When will we get rational thinking into our daily lives and frown on sensationalism that blankets the real issues with a quick cover

      We hire politicians to coordinate and run our communities and media outlets, with the best possible advice and this is not happening.

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    pat

    AUDIO 30 mins: ClimateChangeNews: The Emissions Factor: Preview: COP21 Paris climate change summit
    Climate Home editor Ed King is joined by Malini Mehra from G.L.O.B.E. International and WWF-UK’s Stephen Cornelius to look ahead to the UN climate talks in Paris, which run from 30 November – 11 December.
    https://soundcloud.com/climate-home/preview-cop21-paris-climate-change-summit

    LinkedIn for Stephen Cornelius (WWF) includes under “Experience”:
    Head of Forests and Land-use Negotiations
    Department of Energy and Climate Change
    February 2011 – March 2015…
    Influenced EU and international negotiations. Helped deliver the Warsaw Framework on REDD+ at the UN climate negotiations…etc
    Assistant Director – International Climate Change Department for Business, Innovation and Skills
    February 2009 – February 2011
    Senior Scientific and Policy Advisor (then DECC)
    Defra
    November 2004 – February 2009

    on G.L.O.B.E. International website, re Malini Mehra:

    Malini Mehra joins GLOBE International following a distinguished international career spanning close to three decades with civil society, government, business and the United Nations. A political scientist and GENDER specialist by training, Malini has degrees from Smith College (USA) and the Institute of Development Studies (Sussex, UK)…She served as a member of former UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan’s High-Level Panel on UN-Civil Society Relations and was the architect of the UK’s Sustainable Development Dialogues with Brazil, China, India, Mexico and South Africa. She has served on global boards for leading non-profits such as the Global Reporting Initiative (GRI) and China Dialogue; and major corporates including Unilever, Hewlett-Packard, Kimberly-Clark and BHP Billiton.

    G.L.O.B.E. takes over the French Parliament for TWO DAYS during COP21!

    G.L.O.B.E. INTERNATIONAL: COP21 LEGISLATORS SUMMIT – Paris, France
    TOWARDS COHERENCE & IMPACT: The challenge of Paris and the Post-2015 Agenda for a prosperous and sustainable world
    GLOBE COP21 Legislators Summit
    4-5 December 2015
    National Assembly of France
    Paris, France
    Speakers
    (includes: Tom Steyer, Michael Bloomberg, Christiana Figueres, Achim Steiner, US Senator Ed Markey, ETC ETC)
    http://globelegislators.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=379

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    Free thought is not invited to the table in some fields of science, sadly, and I think many real scientist don’t realize how bad it has become in certain fields, such as CC. We need to get through the groupthink. I think many scientist I know would be appalled at how atrocious the science, but they are so stuck in groupthink that they can’t even question the “overwhelming consensus” to look closer into the topic. Silly humans.

    I love #2! ” It cannot be denied without admitting it. The denial implies a denier; the denial is the effect of which the denier is the cause.” Really!!!! Someone write that down as an actual serious argument?

    Climate change definitely has religious elements to it…blaming war on it starts to make it more like a religion than I thought when I wrote my post on it:
    http://notthatgungho.com/climate-change-religion/

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    Bulldust

    The ABC is trotting out record temperature rot based solely on GISS data:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-25/jericho-record-temperatures-turn-up-the-heat-on-the-paris/6971244

    No doubt my comment will be “moderated”:

    OP – why do you shy away from the far more reliable satellite data? Could it be that they do not agree with the numbers generated by GISS? Satellite coverage uniformly captures most of the world’s surface temperatures while GISS data are based on sporadic records from irregularly placed thermometers on the ground, and even more sporadic ocean measurements. These are then heavily homogenised (adjusted) to generate a global average temperature anomoly. To call this a statistical sophistry would be kind…

    No doubt this comment will be “moderated” because of the inconvenient truths.

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      Bulldust

      Given the mod squad appears to be memory holing my comments I added a response to someone else raising the satellite question:

      Interesting that the ABC mod squad already disappeared my comment to similar effect. My comment was sucked in past the event horizon never to return. ABC can “moderate” my within guidelines comments, but they cannot hide from the truth forever.

      Most interesting of all, of course, is the increasing divergence between modelled projections by the IPCC and the reliable satellite temperature data sets (RSS and UAH).

      Luckily we have some brave souls trying to explain reality such as David Evans. No doubt even mentioning his name is worth of memory holing this comment as well…

      Copied elsewhere as further evidence of ABC censorship.

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      • #
        Bulldust

        Funny that – a while after submitting the second scathing post, the first suddenly re-appears hours after being posted (well out of sync with other blog submissions with the same time stamp). The second was withheld, of course.

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    pat

    Malini Mehra was one of the chosen few, when Delingpole wrote the following five years ago. worth a re-read:

    Nov 2010: UK Telegraph: James Delingpole: Why the BBC cannot be trusted on ‘Climate Change’: the full story
    (d) It is also worth noting that the BBC website has a dedicated area for environmentalists: The Green Room. Searching its archives papers related to climate change gives the following list of contributors: Prof Mike Hulme (Tyndall Centre), Bryony Worthington (from an NGO involved in emissions trading, ‘EU is not doing enough to deliver meaningful cuts’), Chris Smith ‘Climate change is very real’, Sir David King (green activist), ***Malini Mehra (green NGO), Andrew Simms (‘economic growth cannot continue’), Richard Betts (Met Office), Greig Whitehead (NGO, ‘For millions of people in Africa, climate change is a reality’), Tim Aldred (NGO. World leaders must listen to the people who put them in power and quickly make amends for failing to deliver a binding climate deal’). We have been unable to identify any sceptics invited to contradict mainstream environmentalist views on this site. The Green Room appears to exist only as an outlet for propaganda pieces by environmentalists.
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100063937/why-the-bbc-cannot-be-trusted-on-climate-change-the-full-story/

    BBC is running non-stop gender (women) programs over the COP21 period, in the third year of their weeks-long “100 Women” series which began in 2013. divide and conquer comes to mind. ABC, likewise, rarely seems to be about humankind in general these days:

    3 pieces from ABC (Fran’s) Breakfast today, in chronological order:

    7.43am: New research reveals harmful attitudes of violence against women amongst children
    7.52am: Paris climate deal on forests off-set by looming blow out in carbon emissions
    8.06am: Our Men, Our Healing: tackling domestic violence in Indigenous communities

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    OriginalSteve

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9h74DTdTlCk

    Privilege = denier ( presumably this doesnt mean CAGW is a left wing agenda…oh no… perish the thought )

    For your amusement…..

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    handjive

    In 2015, anyone who thinks that leeks and lightbulbs won’t stop floods in Peru is a “denier”.

    Other 97% “beliefs” to laugh at “deny”:

    Uma says ‘human excretion’ (by non-believers near the shrine) caused U’khand floods

    Semitic religions are the root cause of global warming

    Indian Men Marry ‘Water Wives’ In Drought-Stricken Villages To Survive Heat Wave, Water Shortages

    How to save the planet? Stop having children

    Warmer Climate Threatens Airplane Takeoffs

    Pope Francis condemns air conditioning (p55) in encyclical

    Right-Wingers Claim Texas Flooding Caused Not by Climate Change but Witchcraft and Sodomy
    . . .
    Meh?
    The most confusing for meh is the buddhists and reincarnation.

    Do you get to choose to reincarnate as a human to suffer on a hotter planet, or is it random, and, what if you came back as a micro-organism who lives on a submarine volcano vent where life was thought never to exist because it is too “extreme”?

    Why does the Dali Lama endorse a UN tax now?

    But, that is just meh. (deep in moderation with so many links!)

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      OriginalSteve

      I must say – I have been enjoying thenewdaily.com.au – they seem to have rusted on leftist luvvies who have taken up residence and prowl all the stories looking to enforce leftist “orthodoxy”

      I have to say – sometimes the bile from the leftists has to be hosed down to get tothe other comemnts. Its a strange sort of twilight zone whereby I’m neve sure of thet leftists are actually real or just charactures that someone does to relieve boredom.

      Anyway, I lobbed in a few comments about CAGW being complete nonsense and a scam and well….talk about a “firehose” response….amusing….

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  • #

    Calling skeptics deniers is a transparent attempt to mask their own denial of basic physical laws, like COE, Stefan-Boltzmann and the other thermodynamic laws.

    They wouldn’t need to resort to name calling if they had a shred of scientific evidence on their side. This all goes to show just how incredibly corrupted climate science has become consequential to the co-dependence of otherwise unsupportable political agendas with the broken science supporting them.

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    pat

    I deny this:

    25 Nov: SMH: Tom Arup: Paris 2015: Australians back deeper carbon cuts as climate summit looms
    VIDEO: Lucy Cormack: seas are rising blah blah…it’s getting hotter all over the world. Climate change is starting to have a personal impact on billions of people and we need to cut back on greenhouse gases and adapt to a warmer world…
    Australia will go to the Paris climate change summit with public backing to do more to cut greenhouse gas emissions if it helps get a global deal, according to a new poll by the Lowy Institute.
    The survey for the foreign affairs think-tank found 62 per cent of people backed Australia bolstering its emissions reduction targets in the interests of a reaching a global climate agreement…’
    The Lowy Institute poll, which surveyed 1002 people in late October and early November, also found Australians were largely divided on what policy should be used to meet the targets.
    Although 51 per cent backed retaining the ***Turnbull government’s direct action scheme – which pays companies and farmers to make emissions cuts – 43 per cent supported the reintroduction of a carbon price.
    Alex Oliver, who heads the Lowy Institute’s polling program, described the level of support for carbon pricing ***surprising (even if lower than for direct action) given the heated political debate in recent year over the now repealed “carbon tax”…
    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/paris-2015-australians-back-deeper-carbon-cuts-as-climate-summit-looms-20151124-gl6qx5.html

    ***NOT SO MUCH “SURPRISING” AS INCREDIBLE, OLIVER.

    25 Nov: 2015 Lowy Institute Polling: Views On Climate Action Ahead Of UN Climate Negotiations In Paris
    Most Australians want the government to make stronger commitments on emissions reductions…
    The telephone poll, conducted between 25 October and 4 November this year, confirmed the upward trend in concern about climate change which the Lowy Institute has recorded in successive polls since 2012.
    More than half of the Australian population – 52% – now say global warming is ‘a serious and pressing problem. We should begin taking steps now even if this involves significant costs’. This is an increase of 16 percentage points since 2012…
    Nevertheless, despite the abolition of the carbon tax in 2014, a surprising 43% would prefer that the Australian Government ‘introduce an ***emissions trading scheme or price on carbon, where people pay for their carbon emissions’…
    ***For the exact question text and full results, click here

    (LOL: FIRST QUESTION – “THINKING NOW ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING”!!!)

    Question 1
    Thinking now about global warming. There is a controversy over what the countries of the world, including Australia, should do about the problem of global warming. I’m going to read you three statements. Please tell me which statement comes closest to your own point of view…ETC ETC
    http://www.lowyinstitute.org/news-and-media/press-releases/lowy-institute-polling-views-climate-action-ahead-un-climate-negotiations-paris

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    pat

    25 Nov: AFR: Mark Ludlow: Australia to beat 2020 carbon targets five years early
    Australia is hoping to enter the climate talks in Paris with increased credibility after federal Environment Minister Greg Hunt revealed the 2020 carbon abatement targets will be met five years early…
    The Department of Environment’s national accounts to be released on Wednesday will show there has been an improvement of 264 million tonnes of potential abatement, which surpasses the 236 million tonnes target earlier this year – putting Australia in the black by 28 million tonnes.
    “We have closed the emissions gap and go to Paris officially sub-zero and on track to beat our 2020 target,” Mr Hunt will tell the National Press Club in Canberra on Wednesday
    “This remains, however, a conservative forecast and I am hopeful that future updates will show an even greater surplus.”…
    ***Mr Hunt will also use his National Press Club address to spruik the Coalition’s environmental successes, including the $2.5 billion Emissions Reduction Fund which has paid companies to deliver 92.8 million tonnes of carbon abatement at $13.12 a tonne.
    http://www.afr.com/news/politics/australia-to-beat-2020-carbon-targets-five-years-early-20151124-gl6cls

    ***Greg Hunt – maybe this ungrateful guy should return the taxpayer money he was awarded!

    24 Nov: ABC: Conor Duffy: Direct Action auction winner Wattly hits out at government for lacking real climate change action
    Wattly managing director Hamish McGovern successfully bid at the auction for a project to install energy efficient lights in hotels, but has not waived his doubts about the policy.
    Mr McGovern said the policy was not driving change in the industrial and commercial sectors, with most direct action projects in land management or landfill…
    Mr McGovern said the project did not deliver funding until the end of a project and believed many of the projects bankrolled by the taxpayer would have gone ahead anyway…
    Hugh Grossman from energy analyst Reputex said emissions in other parts of the economy were growing so fast, they would wipe out the taxpayer-funded savings delivered by Direct Action…
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-24/direct-action-auction-winner-hits-back-at-government/6970538

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    pat

    Yale’s at it again:

    24 Nov: Phys.org: Sociologist suggests corporate disinformation at root of climate change polarization
    Justin Farrell, a sociologist with the School of Forestry & Environmental Studies at Yale University, has conducted a study looking into the question of why there is so much polarity regarding the opinions of Americans regarding global environment change and has found that it can be very strongly tied to corporate disinformation campaigns. In his paper published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, he describes his study of publicly available written and verbal texts on the topic over the past two decades and why what he found led him to believe that a few key players in the U.S. have managed to muddle the debate in the minds of voters.
    Many in the science community have been baffled by many Americans (and others) refusal to believe that the planet is heating up and that it is almost certainly due to man-made greenhouse gas emissions. Suspecting that it might have something to do with the information that Americans receive on the topic, he poured over 20 years worth of data that included 40,785 texts and other medium. In so doing he was able to identify 164 organizations that he categorizes as “actors,” such as oil companies and others with something to lose if alternatives to oil use are promoted…
    In short, he suggests that contrarian efforts by some actors seeking to mislead the public have caused so much confusion that many Americans are no longer able to figure out who to listen to or believe. He suggests that his research also highlights the needed for more information dissemination from ***publicly funded sources to counter those that are backed by corporations…
    (LINK) Journal reference: Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences
    http://phys.org/news/2015-11-sociologist-corporate-disinformation-root-climate.html

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      OriginalSteve

      Reminds me of a classic scene from the BBCs “The Young Ones” , in which Vivan the punk was belting his head agaisn the wall saying “I cant get rid of this blasted headache…”

      Ah the 80s …that and Kenney Everett….he he

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      Right … so using Farrell’s logic:
      1) He already has made up his own mind on the ‘science’ during the ‘debate’
      2) Can’t understand why the Proles aren’t drinking his particular flavor of cool-aid.
      3) Cherrypick’s any corporation that even whiffs of being against his adopted belief.
      4) Suggests that Public Funding should all be directed to one side of the ‘debate’ in order for his own thesis to be supported to contravene cherry-pickings.

      … meaning public funding is best spent saying the opposite of what ‘corporations’ do, even though there is no mention in his analysis of the overwhelming qty and influence of corporations that ARE trying to sell the public global warming ‘science’ (about 95% of all media time in the west).

      I guess it just WASN’T IN HIS TERMS OF REFERENCE to find problems with his own methodology!

      (just like the IPCC, who’s only real term of reference is that ‘if it generates more funding, support it, otherwise omit it’: Science 101, United Nations style)

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    pat

    23 Nov: Reuters: David Stanway/Natalie Thomas: China says keeping leaders away is key to climate talk success
    Keeping state leaders away from the negotiations will play a major role in ensuring that crucial talks on a new global climate deal in Paris next week proceed smoothly, China’s top climate change negotiator said in an interview on Monday…
    Xie Zhenhua, China’s veteran climate chief, told Reuters in an interview that he was confident there was now sufficient “political will” to secure a new deal, and that changes to the “design” of the talks would help avoid the failures of Copenhagen in 2009.
    “No country wants the situation in Copenhagen to be repeated,” he said. “Letting heads of state try to resolve the problems rather than leaving it to the negotiators was an error in the design and it led to an error in the result.”…
    Xie said China proposed to the secretariat of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change at an early stage to try to restrict the involvement of state leaders in order to ease the political pressures on negotiators.
    “They can speak at the opening ceremony, express hope about how the meeting should go, and make requests to their delegations, but afterwards, the specifics need to be resolved by the delegations,” he said…
    ***”The world still has time to meet that two-degree target,” he said, adding, “The key issue will be in funding and technology.”…
    ***While some have urged China to contribute to the fund, Beijing remains adamant that the obligations lie with rich nations…
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/23/us-climatechange-china-idUSKBN0TC0Z820151123

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    pat

    25 Nov: 9News: Human gridlock in China as snow forces commuters off buses
    Aerial footage from CCTV News shows a make-shift footpath swelling to the same width as the street.
    The vehicles are no better off than the pedestrians, with buses and cars brought to a standstill…
    Weather had nothing to do with the Beijing jam, it was merely the result of too many vehicles on the road, Forbes reports.
    http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/11/25/10/06/human-gridlock-in-china

    classic:

    24 Nov: Youtube: CCTV: Snow creates traffic havoc in China
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFiJ7akqa1Y

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    handjive

    I am Watching Greg Hunt @ National Press Club on abc.

    Orwellspeak @100%!

    Hunt does not/cannot cite one example from the benefit of carbon(sic) action so far undertaken, like record crops.

    Asked by a reporter from China regarding China’s pledges @Paris-CoP21, there is no mention of the failure:

    China Burns Much More (17%) Coal Than Reported, Complicating Climate Talks (NYT)

    Did anyone mention VW?

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    Listen, this is a regular little comedy, even though off topic.

    It’s that dreaded Greens plan for renewable power.

    The more I look, the more laughable it becomes. It’s patently obvious no real thought went into it, just numbers on the page for new power plants, all of them renewable.

    I’m just working on the figures they have there, and really, there’s no way they can even begin to do this, even if they WERE the Government with a mandate to implement it.

    New wind power comes in at almost 16,000MW Nameplate and the current Australian total is just under 4000MW, so that’s the current existing total in new construction every four years. Can’t be done, even if they already have the sites, because surely they would have checked that eh!

    New total for Solar PV for all Australia is 41,000MW. Umm, the current WHOLE OF WORLD total for Solar PV is 25,000MW.

    New total for Concentrating solar (solar thermal) is 14,200MW of plants as yet not even designed in thought bubbles, let alone reality. The current WHOLE OF WORLD total for CSP is 4300MW, so that’s more than three times the current world total. Again, no sites.

    Biomass, a new Nameplate of 4100MW, also as yet undesigned.

    Geothermal, again problematic here in Australia, as proven, well their total for that is 2700MW Nameplate.

    No thought to even costing ANY of this, and just a rough task from me, using existing costings, well, think around $8 Billion each year for the next 15 years, and that’s a conservative value, not just made up here, but calculated on current costings for these plants.

    As I mentioned, all of this is just numbers on a page. No thought went into it at all.

    Oh, and the whole transportation sector is also to be electrified, and that’s every private car, truck, bus, trains, etc.

    Hmm, I wonder where shipping comes in, and air travel too.

    All of that electrical power, using current Capacity Factors will generate around 160TWH for a proposed total power consumption of 360TWH, due to electrification of transport etc.

    These people quite obviously thought no one would even bother to check.

    By the way, I phoned them up (The Greens) and asked why they left WA out of their document. The fellow who answered the phone sounded very worried when I mentioned and he went and checked, and without even asking my return phone contact details, he said he’d, umm, get back to me.

    Yeah, right.

    Pity all of this will only ever be seen by those of you who read here at Joanne’s site.

    These people are an utter joke.

    Tony.

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      Just copied most of this onto Senator Siewert’s FB page Tony. You never know, I might even get ‘unfriended’. :)

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      ianl8888


      These people quite obviously thought no one would even bother to check

      These people just don’t care. If challenged, the familiar litany of abuse will just blubber forth. Or you’ll simply be ignored, as you were when you pointed out that WA was missing

      I appreciate the background checking you do, but please don’t get hung by the conflict with the facts … it’s all about emotions, and has been for years now

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      I’m just working on the figures they have there, and really, there’s no way they can even begin to do this, even if they WERE the Government with a mandate to implement it.

      I love your head for details Steve and I enjoy your calculations, but I don’t think the average Greens voter needs to be sold a bill of goods that at all follows logic or realism … wishful thinking about the future is all that is required for Greens voters, not solid action plans that can actually be executed outside of the magical land of Narnia. I tried to date a greenie once when I was a member of Greenpeace in my early 20′s, and I just gave up. What CO2 has to do with Whales and Dolphins I could never understand.

      Greens policy: Kill all the current power stations and worry about load power after the fact: necessity is the mother of invention, etc … or we all stick blueberries up our noses and go back to the woods (just not National Parks, World Heritage areas, no humans allowed … plenty of space in the Simpson Desert as long as you try not to step on any endangered sub-species of arachnids)

      What’s not to like?!?

      Sarah Hanson-Young can be dragged out (again) into the chamber to cry for the planet, and the policy is then instantly doubly realizable to Greens voters: Emotional Science!!

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    pat

    handjive -

    China ain’t playing along:

    25 Nov: UK Daily Mail: AFP: Xi to bring no new concessions to Paris climate summit
    China pledged last year to peak carbon output by “around 2030″ — suggesting at least another decade of growing emissions.
    The Asian giant is estimated to have released nine to 10 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide in 2013, nearly twice as much as the United States and around two and a half times the European Union figure…
    World leaders will be in attendance in France “to lend political impetus” to the meeting but “are not there for negotiations”, Vice Foreign Minister Liu Zhenmin told a briefing…
    Liu called upon developed countries to do more by “increasing intensity of [their] actions before 2020″.
    “The issue of climate change is the result of historical emissions by developed countries, and the responsibilities and obligations of developed and developing countries should be differentiated,” he added…
    China’s transformative economic boom has mainly been fuelled by coal, which provides most of its energy, and it plans to move 250 million more people from the countryside to cities in the next 10 years — creating more buildings and car users…
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-3333039/Xi-bring-no-new-concessions-Paris-climate-summit.html

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    pat

    24 Nov: Salt Lake Tribune: Brian Maffly: Utah solar-production company actually a tax ‘sham,’ feds say
    International Automated Systems claims it’s revolutionized energy production — and can make investors money. The Utah County firm deploys patented “solar lense” technology to focus the sun’s rays into intense thermal energy that drives bladeless turbines that are far more efficient than traditional electrical generators, according to company founder Neldon Johnson…ETC ETC
    Too bad it’s a lot of hot air, according to a suit filed Monday by federal attorneys who say Johnson’s inventions are part of an “abusive tax scheme.” It already has cost the federal treasury $4 million and it needs to be shut down, authorities allege in papers filed in U.S. District Court in Salt Lake City. They seek an injunction against Johnson and his associates who use a multilevel marketing program to sell the technology through a Millard County firm called RaPower3.
    A key aim of the scheme is not to produce energy, but reap federal tax incentives intended to spur the spread of solar power, according to the feds’ legal action.
    But Johnson says the allegations are untrue…
    The inventor said experts with doctorates have vetted his technologies, which he is now threatening to take overseas.
    “I have met with the secretary of state of China. I don’t know why I don’t go there. They have offered me a pretty good deal,” said Johnson, whose inventions were the subject of fraud allegations leveled by the federal Securities and Exchange Commission a decade ago…
    The company’s lenses, which sell for up to $3,500, are merely thin sheets of plastic…READ ALL
    http://www.sltrib.com/news/3223676-155/utah-solar-production-company-actually-a-tax

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    pat

    24 Nov: 5newsonline: Records Show Proposed Wind Farm Representative Has History Of Financial Trouble
    by Zuzanna Sitek and Dillon Thomas
    ELM SPRINGS (KFSM) — Another key player involved in the proposal to build a wind farm in Elm Springs has a history of criminal and civil cases involving his finances.
    Court documents obtained by 5NEWS show Cody Fell has a history of financial issues in Arkansas and Oklahoma…
    Elm Springs Mayor Harold Douthit sent the following statement to 5NEWS Tuesday (Nov. 14):
    “The information brought to light recently surrounding Dragonfly personnel no doubt has put a cloud on the future of the wind farm project.”… READ ALL
    http://5newsonline.com/2015/11/23/records-show-proposed-wind-farm-representative-has-history-of-financial-trouble/

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    pat

    not a word about this from ABC/Fairfax or even News Ltd papers that I can find:

    19 Nov: BusinessSpectator: AAP: Trustpower cuts value of SA wind farm
    NZ’s Trustpower has downgraded its assessment of the potential production from the second stage of its Snowtown wind farm in South Australia and slashed its valuation.
    The Tauranga-based electricity producer says production will be 9.4 per cent less than previously estimated, cutting operating earnings by around $8.5 million a year “in a year of average wind”.
    It cut its valuation by as much as $70m.
    The company, controlled by Infratil, said the revision was due to a number of factors associated with energy yield prediction which included limitations with modelling tools when applied to a site of such complexity and scale.
    Trustpower’s shares fell 1.9 per cent to a four-week low of $7.60. Infratil stock declined 0.6 per cent to $3.15…
    Snowtown is the second-largest wind generation facility in Australia with total installed capacity of 370 Megawatts, according to the Trustpower website.
    It was built in two phases, 2008 and 2013, at a total cost of around $660m.
    The output reassessment relates to the stage two development, which had been revalued upwards by $315m in the latest company accounts. The reassessment reduces expected annual generation from 985GWh per year from the stage two development to 892GWh…
    http://www.businessspectator.com.au/news/2015/11/19/wind-power/trustpower-cuts-value-sa-wind-farm

    19 Nov: RenewEconomy: Giles Parkinson: Trustpower cuts value of biggest South Australia wind farm due to lower output
    The company announced on Thursday that generation from the largest wind farm in South Australia would likely be 9.4 per cent below expectations, down to 892GWh from 985GWh per year…
    The revised output suggests an anticipated capacity factor of around 38 per cent, still relatively high, and compared to around 27 per cent for Macarthur.
    However, recent data from Green Energy Markets suggests that both the Snowtown South and Snowtown North components have been producing below that level. (The % figure to the right is year-to-date 2015, while the % figure in the third last column is output in October)…
    Deutsche Bank analysts said they expect Trustpower to sell the Snowtown assets over the medium term and “this could be the first step in the process.”
    http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/trustpower-cuts-value-of-biggest-south-australia-wind-farm-due-to-lower-output-55521

    but ABC were happy to publish this in June. check the gigawatt hours claim Tony – does it make sense?

    12 June: ABC: Clint Jasper: Wind farm developers disappointed with Prime Minister’s ‘ugly turbine’ comments
    But New Zealand-based TrustPower, the developer behind the Snowtown wind farm, 170 kilometres north of Adelaide, said the PM had never visited that site, where new generation turbines made no noise and co-existed well with the local community…
    In addition to being the state’s largest wind farm, the Snowtown development has 138 turbines and produces ***1,335 gigawatt hours of power, making it the second largest in the country.

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      What The!

      First this: my bolding here()

      Snowtown is the second-largest wind generation facility in Australia with total installed capacity of 370 Megawatts

      Then this:

      The company announced on Thursday that generation from the largest wind farm in South Australia would likely be 9.4 per cent below expectations, down to 892GWh from 985GWh per year

      Then this:

      The revised output suggests an anticipated capacity factor of around 38 per cent…..

      Do they seriously think that the public cannot do Maths.

      This plant has a Nameplate of 370MW. At a Capacity Factor of 38%, then the yearly output should be 1233GWH.

      That upper figure of 985GWH is 30%, and the current actual delivery of 892GWH is 27.5%

      So they are actually telling ‘porkies’ here then, eh!

      By the way, that magical figure of 38% is the MODELLED figure which ALL wind plants are calculated on at the proposal stage.

      Prospective plants either use that figure or some even adjust it upwards from that, and I’ve seem some wind plants claiming as high as 48%, a total no wind plant has ever achieved across a full year, no matter what they say.

      That 38% is an easy enough figure to actually work out really, and rather than quote it outright and run the risk of people asking the obvious question, like, “Say, isn’t that a little low for power output?”, they hide that figure in plain sight, in goobledegook they just know that no one can work out.

      The wind plant proposers all work out their hoped for power delivery at that figure of 38% CF, and knowing the power usage of an average home in that area, they then divide that into the actual power delivery, saying ….. “This plant can supply X number of homes”.

      Mention this subterfuge of homes supplied, how it is worked out, and that the 38% CF is a modelled figure only at any of the warmist sites, and the howls are long and loud.

      Tony.

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        pat

        thanks Tony -

        however, the public aren’t being informed of any of this.

        interesting that RenewEconomy writes:

        Deutsche Bank analysts said they expect Trustpower to sell the Snowtown assets over the medium term and “this could be the first step in the process.”

        Climate Council report is now linked in the comments below. what a shocker! your comments are awaited.

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    pat

    can’t copy, so read:

    25 Nov: Burnham-on-sea.com: Six-year wind farm fight near Burnham is won as EDF drops appeal
    http://www.burnham-on-sea.com/news/2015/edf-wind-farm-plans-24-11-15.php

    earlier win, mentioned in above, for folks not called Tony Abbott who consider wind farms a “blight” on their countryside:

    28 April: Burnham-on-sea.com: High Court throws out West Huntspill wind farm appeal by Ecotricity
    http://www.burnham-on-sea.com/news/2015/wind-farm-decision-high-court-28-04-15.php

    as in Australia, MSM is not reporting these wins by anti-wind campaigners!

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    pat

    18 Nov: RenewablesBiz: Residents’ joy as wind farm plan rejected
    PROPOSALS for massive turbines close to one of the country’s biggest wind farms have been ditched, sparking joy among local residents…
    Locals formed the Ditchburn Action Group to fight the proposals, with members believing their area has suffered enough from the perceived blight of turbines, and that the generators will impact on historic sites, the landscape and on property values. They turned out in force to a public exhibition staged by the developer, with 100 percent of the 50 plus residents taking part in an exit poll on the first day voicing opposition.
    A number of signs bearing slogans opposing the turbine scheme were put in gardens at both Eglingham and South Charlton…
    An official states: ” Brook-field Renewable UK Ltd (formerly PNE Wind UK ) no longer intend to submit a planning application for the proposal.
    “This decision has been taken following recent policy changes in planning and ***market support in the UK and particularly in England.”…
    Group member John Waters: “I have had hundreds of emails from people saying ‘great news, well done.’ “It has been hugely costly for everybody, we have all had to put our hands in our pockets. Hopefully it is a message to anybody that is thinking about conjuring up a major wind farm, hopefully it will dissuade that from doing that. We have got more than enough.”
    http://www.renewablesbiz.com/article/15/11/residents-joy-wind-farm-plan-rejected

    23 Nov: NW Evening Mail: Lake District towering turbines set to be rejected
    CONTROVERSIAL plans to replace a wind farm have been recommended for refusal by a planning officer.
    The 12 turbines at Kirkby Moor Wind Farm, which stands less than a mile outside the Lake District National Park, were installed in 1993.
    Energy giant RWE wants to replace the turbines with six 115m-high ones – a proposal which was met with objections from conservation groups, environmentalists and councils straight away.
    Planning officer, Kate Lawson, has now also shared her objections and has recommended it for refusal.
    She said: “Although the proposal will make a tangible contribution to targets for renewable energy generation, this does not outweigh the harmful landscape, visual and cumulative impacts of the proposed development including the adverse impacts upon the setting of the Lake District National Park.
    “There are also a number of unresolved issues relating to impacts upon the archaeological interests, impacts upon Ministry of Defence and other communications networks, and highways and drainage.”…
    Objections came from 15 parish councils, as well as Ulverston Town Council and Cumbria County Council.
    They all feared that the larger turbines would impact negatively on the scenery, tourism and local wildlife…
    He (resident John Hudson) said: “This is an application for something huge that is high on the skyline and can be seen from 45 miles away – right next to our finest National Park.
    “I’m surprised that the application wasn’t pulled months ago when Air Traffic Control and the Ministry of Defence objected.
    “To continue with the application after that, is either outright arrogance or rank stupidity.”…
    http://www.nwemail.co.uk/News/Barrow/Lake-District-towering-turbines-set-to-be-rejected-87958f61-1faf-45f5-85d6-6838258e2be2-ds

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    pat

    this very lengthy & informative article -

    Green energy’s dirty secret: Industrial solar and wind endanger wildlife but are getting more support than ever

    required subscription at High County News, but is now available in full here:

    21 Nov: Denver Post: Judith Lewis Mernit: Renewable energy’s dirty little secret
    This story was originally published at High Country News (hcn.org) on Oct. 26.
    http://www.denverpost.com/perspective/ci_29144536/renewable-energys-dirty-little-secret

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    pat

    what our MSM will report unquestioningly:

    25 Nov: News.com.au: Emily Moulton: Climate Council report finds clean energy investment grew by 43 per cent over six years
    It is being hailed as the next big boom that has the potential to revolutionise our economy.
    But unless Australia ramps up its commitment, experts warn it could pass us by.
    A week before world leaders are set to meet in Paris to discuss setting agreed targets on reducing carbon emissions, the Climate Council of Australia has released a report which it says shows the world is in the midst of a dramatic energy revolution…
    “While in the past tackling climate change has been considered a moral imperative, it is now also a huge economic opportunity as countries make very significant commitments to growing renewable energy at the same time that the costs plummet,” Professor Flannery said…
    “Now, leading into the Paris conference, renewable energy has overtaken fossil fuels to become the preferred source of power generation, with annual renewable energy capacity additions outpacing fossil fuels by 40 per cent. There are now numerous examples of countries, states and cities being largely powered by renewable energy.”…
    “The best prices for new onshore wind and utility scale solar PV are now coming in at or lower than the cheapest new coal-fired power generation. And as costs have fallen dramatically for renewable energy in the last six years, the median price of non renewable energy plants such as gas, coal and nuclear have increased.”…
    http://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/climate-change/climate-council-report-finds-clean-energy-investment-grew-by-43-per-cent-over-six-years/news-story/2c6cef52c5de1b4527d3d0cf29342ba1

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    pat

    25 Nov: Climate Council: Report: A Whole New World: Tracking the Renewables Boom from Copenhagen to Paris
    DOWNLOAD THE REPORT (32 pages)
    https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/wholenewworldreport2015

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    sophocles

    Point out the difficulties of Atheism

    What marvellous sophistry. To disbelieve, you first have to believe to be able to deny the belief…

    There is insufficient scientific evidence for the existance of a Deity (or Creator or whatever you want to call it) is my preferred position, neither confirming nor denying.

    @# 11:
    Ho Griss!

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    pat

    as the MSM & Climate Council shill for renewables:

    25 Nov: CleanTechnica: Saurabh Mahapatra: SunEdison May Call Off Acquisition of Indian Wind Energy IPP
    More Indian news outlets are now reporting the possibility that SunEdison will back out of its acquisition of Indian wind energy independent power producer Continuum Wind Energy…
    The deal was termed as one of the most significant in terms of exhibiting global confidence in the Indian renewable energy market. Continuum’s acquisition would have given SunEdison control of over 400 MW of wind energy assets (operational as well as under construction) and, more significantly, a crucial footprint in the Indian wind energy market.
    The likelihood of this deal not going ahead will, however, not be a reflection on the Indian renewable energy market but on SunEdison’s financial condition.
    Last month, the company announced that it will lay off 15% of its workforce. SunEdison’s stock price at the New York Stock Exchange has plummeted from a high of $31.66 on 20 July to $3.00 on 20 November, while shares of its yieldco, Terraform Power have also plummeted from this year’s high of $42.66 to less than $10…
    In addition to acquiring several renewable energy assets, the company also reported record capacity of 1.9 GW under construction in its second quarter earnings report…
    http://cleantechnica.com/2015/11/25/sunedison-may-call-off-acquisition-indian-wind-energy-ipp/

    24 Nov: EconomicTimesIndia: Reuters: SunEdison plans to offload 400 MW of solar capacity in India
    US solar company SunEdison Inc said it would sell projects in India with generating capacity of 425 megawatts (MW) to its “yieldco” TerraForm Global Inc for $231 million.
    Heavily indebted SunEdison said earlier this month that it would stop selling projects to its two yieldcos – dividend-paying units that hold generating assets of a parent solar or wind power company – until market conditions improved…
    Shares of the company, which also said a unit had repaid almost all money related to a margin loan with Deutsche Bank, rose as much as 16.3 per cent.
    “We believe a significant portion of the recent volatility around the company and its subsidiaries has been attributed to the margin loan,” SunEdison Chief Executive Ahmad Chatila said in a statement.
    Up to Monday’s close, SunEdison’s shares had lost nearly 69 per cent of their value since Oct. 7 when the company said it would Shares of the company, which also said a unit had repaid almost all money related to a margin loan with Deutsche Bank, rose as much as 16.3 per cent…
    Up to Monday’s close, SunEdison’s shares had lost nearly 69 per cent of their value since Oct. 7 when the company said it would stop sales of renewable energy assets to its “yieldcos” and sell more projects to third parties…
    SunEdison, which grew quickly through acquisitions, has been plagued by liquidity concerns, and the company reported a bigger-than-expected quarterly loss earlier this month…
    Gopalan said SunEdison continued to look at selling projects in various countries to raise capital.
    “To grow you need capital. Our balance sheet does not have the necessary capital,” he said…
    http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/energy/power/sunedison-plans-to-offload-400-mw-of-solar-capacity-in-india/articleshow/49909842.cms

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    el gordo

    For years I denied Antarctica was melting and finally I’ve be vindicated according to Ben Webster, The Times.

    ‘The risk of the Antarctic ice sheet collapsing and flooding coasts around the world has been exaggerated, according to researchers.

    ‘Previous studies had claimed that melting Antarctic ice could contribute one metre to the rising sea levels by the end of the century, flooding the homes of 150 million people and threatening dozens of coastal cities.

    ‘However, a team of British and French scientists has found that the collapse in the ice sheet is likely to raise sea levels by 10cm by 2100. An increase in sea levels from the ice sheet becoming unstable is “extremely unlikely to be higher than 30cm” this century, they say, describing previous, more apocalyptic predictions, as implausible.

    ‘The study, published in the journal Nature, found that there was a one in 20 chance that parts of the ice sheet breaking off could contribute more than 30cm to the sea level by the end of the century and more than 72cm by 2200.’

    - See more at: http://www.thegwpf.com/threat-of-melting-antarctic-ice-has-been-exaggerated-new-study/#sthash.zi1NgD1Y.dpuf

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    pat

    24 Nov: VCCircle: Anuradha Verma: SunEdison scraps deal to buy Morgan Stanley-controlled Continuum
    This was to be the biggest M&A deal in Indian renewable energy sector
    California-headquartered SunEdison Inc, the world’s-largest renewable energy developer, has put a string of its power assets in India on the block and has scrapped the proposed deal to buy India assets of Singapore-based Continuum Wind Energy Ltd, separate media reports said…
    Although the value was not disclosed, given the operating and under-construction assets of the firm, this was estimated to be the biggest acquisition in the renewable energy space in the country to date.
    It would have provided an exit to its majority owner Morgan Stanley Infrastructure Partners, a $4 billion global infrastructure investment fund under Morgan Stanley. The fund could have got a quick exit from its Indian portfolio firm even as infrastructure is said to be a long-gestation investment bet…
    Separate emails sent to Continuum, SunEdison and Morgan Stanley Infrastructure Partners on the development did not elicit any response by the time of filing this article…
    Meanwhile, SunEdison is also reportedly looking to divest nearly 400 megawatts (MW) of solar power capacity in India…
    The Economic Times, that first reported the development citing unnamed sources, said it has hired Goldman Sachs to manage the stake sale…
    Its arm Terraform Global Inc had a disappointing market float early this year and the firm had said last month it is cutting a good chunk of its workforce.
    Its proposed deal to buy assets in Latin America also came unstuck…
    http://www.vccircle.com/news/cleantech/2015/11/24/sunedison-scraps-deal-buy-morgan-stanley-controlled-continuum

    24 Nov: Forbes: Antoine Gara: SunEdison Repays Most Of $410 Million Margin Loan Seen As Cause Of Stock Collapse
    SunEdison is beginning to undo some of the complex financial engineering that appears to have spooked investors and caused the company’s stock to tumble in the second half of the year.
    The solar energy company said on Tuesday it has repaid all but $5 million on a $410 million margin loan the company took out with Deutsche Bank in early 2015 when financing its $2.4 billion acquisition of First Wind. The margin loan, which was based on the value of a SunEdison yieldco called TerraForm Power, likely was initially seen by the company as a cheap way to help fund the deal. It proved anything but…
    The moves comes as SunEdison tries to reduce its complexity and win back the investors who’ve fled its shares in recent months…
    Yesterday SunEdison made CFO Bruan Wuebbels CEO of Terraform Power and TerraForm Global, succeeding Carlos Domenech. Current SunEdison board member Steven Tesoriere, a partner at hedge fund Altai Capital, will also step down from the boards of TerraForm Power and TerraForm Global…
    Up until June SunEdison and its yieldcos were top performing stocks, drawing in large hedge fund investors and mostly buy ratings from analysts. However, as the company kicked its growth and acquisition strategy into overdrive this year, it appears to have spooked investors. Perhaps the management change will help…
    SunEdison’s $2.2 billion of rooftop installer Vivint Solar has weighed particularly heavily on the company. The acquisition was supposed to expand SunEdison into rooftop residential and commercial solar installations, however, the deal’s heavy debt load and Vivint’s poor earnings have caused investors to question whether it can be financed effectively…
    But SunEdison stretched itself financially to pull off its growth spurt. The company not only has $11.6 billion in debt, it also requires up to $8.8 billion in capital to build out its pipeline over the next year. How those are financed remains unclear…
    The company’s shares have tumbled nearly 50% over the past month and nearly 80% year-to-date…
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/antoinegara/2015/11/24/sunedison-repays-most-of-410-million-margin-loan-seen-as-cause-of-stock-collapse/

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    pat

    Climate Council might like to revise its latest report!

    24 Nov: EconomicTimesIndia: SunEdison to put 400 MW of upcoming solar capacity on sale; calls off Continuum buy
    By Arijit Barman & Baiju Kalesh
    A struggling global portfolio is eclipsing SunEdison’s mega solar dreams.
    The world’s largest renewable energy developer is significantly downsizing its India footprint by monetising its entire 400 MW of solar capacity that is expected to come on stream by early next year. Investment bank Goldman Sachs has been mandated to manage the sale as the Belmont, California-headquartered SunEdison Inc. is looking to prune its global portfolio and cut costs after expanding at a frenzied pace through a series of global mergers and acquisitions of over $6 billion in less than a year, said people aware of the matter…
    Preliminary feelers have gone out to several global and local renewable companies and green energy focused private equity funds, they said…
    This development also comes immediately after SunEdison pulled out from buying Continuum Wind earlier this month…
    There was no response to emails sent to Sun Edison and Continuum Wind on Monday as of press time. Goldman Sachs declined comment…
    The yieldco model has become increasingly common in the renewable energy industry. Developers need capital for new projects, so they create a separate, publicly traded unit to buy assets once they’re completed. The yieldco’s function is to collect revenue from selling electricity, helping fund the purchase of more power plants.
    “They have made significant commitments to acquire assets globally. That has increased their credit risk and with the IPO bombing, they need to unlock some value for their investors in US. Their equity shares have bottomed out, their bond prices have shot up. They are already having a hard second look at their existing portfolio and cutting losses,” said an analyst tracking developments…
    SunEdison had said in October it would cut 15% of its 7,260-strong global workforce. It has already terminated a $700 million deal to buy renewable energy firm Latin American Power, which operates assets in Chile and Peru. Plans to absorb its Vivint Solar unit are also reportedly in trouble…
    http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/energy/power/sunedison-to-put-400-mw-of-upcoming-solar-capacity-on-sale-calls-off-continuum-buy/articleshow/49899154.cms

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    RogueElement451

    To be fair to the Griss ,whom I miss , in real life I,m sure I have a form of Tourettes ,since I often let my mouth run away with me and constantly shock or disgust my darling wife ,although must of my friends and hers’ swear that they would not have me any other way and find me quite hilarious.
    Sometimes that translates into my writing ,typing at speed whilst frothing at the mouth is quite difficult , just remember to breathe , review and delete before hitting the %^&*ing post button.

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      gai

      “…. just remember to breathe, review and delete before hitting the %^&*ing post button…..”

      ESPECIALLY when having an asthma attack at 3:00 in the morning and the brain is not only half asleep but oxygen starved too.

      It is amazing the words the fingers will type since they are completely disconnected from the thoughts going through the brain.

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    pat

    wonder if the following made the news Nationally! wonder what statistics are for other States?

    18 June: Brisbane Times: Madonna King: Solar panels installations in Queensland spark a fire every week
    More than 200 fires have started in Queensland as a direct result of solar PV installations.
    The startling figure, tracing fires between September 210 and June 2015, shows almost one fire a week is prompted by faulty inverters, wiring connectors or dc isolators…
    Of the 201 fires tracked by the Electrical Safety Office, 78 of them relate to devices that have been recalled.
    These include the brands Avanco, PVPower, Gen3, NHP and ISOMAX.
    The recalled dc isolators have a design fault, which means the internal switch contacts can overheat.
    The problem has been exacerbated by the fact that, at least in one case, the supplier of the brand has been placed in liquidation and cannot complete the recall…
    Suppliers are bringing some in from overseas, and they don’t meet Australian standards.
    Perhaps Australian standards need to be toughened too. And a bigger compliance stick might not hurt either.
    In the meantime, a fire a week related to PV installations is an alarm bell that should be ringing in every Queensland suburb.
    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/madonna-king-solar-panels-installations–in-queensland-spark-a-fire-every-week-20150617-ghqt0t.html

    Made in USA stickers on China made solar panels costs millions in …
    Examiner.com-11 hours ago
    “Further, the state determined that the solar panels sold by defendants represented a fire hazard, since they were not certified to conform to the …

    Solar panels catch fire
    Community Newspaper Group-9 Nov 2015
    A SOLAR panel system caught fire at an Edgewater house on … Crews from Joondalup and Wangara fire and rescue services attended.

    Solar panels catch fire on Boston rooftop
    WCVB Boston-30 Oct 2015
    Solar panels catch fire on Boston rooftop.

    Solar panels catch on fire at dentist office in Latham
    NEWS10 ABC-8 May 2015
    LATHAM, N.Y. (NEWS10) – Fire officials said solar panels on a building may be the cause of a fire Friday morning

    Solar panels on Apple plant in Arizona catch fire
    PV-Tech-28 May 2015

    Rooftop solar panels a cause of concern for firefighters
    My Fox Boston-27 Jul 2015

    Hove town hall fire ’caused by solar panels’
    BBC News-20 Apr 2015
    A large fire at Hove Town Hall is believed to have been caused by an electrical fault in solar panels on the roof, the city council has said.

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    Rathnakumar

    LOL! So after all, the term ‘climate denier’ is accurate in the sense that we deny the ‘co2-driven-climate religion’. Perhaps ‘co2-driven-climate denier’ will be even more accurate!

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    warren raymond

    If you deny the science you are a heretic who must be burned at the stakes. The NWO is unforgiving to those who reject their religion.

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    OriginalSteve

    Warren – I had to tell my 10 year old that a lot of stuff on the news is plain wrong – she was asking about climate gloom and doom stuff….

    I also think we have to fight hard for our kids to make sure they have the right info in their heads. What the NWO crowd assume ( wrongly ) is that teachers and authority figures wont be questioned or held accounatble – wrong wrong wrong….

    I grew up in a house where very little was off limits in terms of topics and if you had a point of view you best be able to defend it to the hilt.

    We need to encourage open questioning of everything kids hear and see…..and be prepared to develop a method of sound analysis of ideas in light of provable realities.

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  • #

    Denying you are a denier makes you a denier.

    00