JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


Handbooks

The Skeptics Handbook

Think it has been debunked? See here.

The Skeptics Handbook II

Climate Money Paper


Advertising

micropace


GoldNerds

The nerds have the numbers on precious metals investments on the ASX



Archives

Only three days left to save The Earth

Prof Penny Sackett, Herald Sun December 04, 2009

We’ve got 5 years to save world says Australia’s chief scientist Professor Penny Sackett

THE planet has just five years to avoid disastrous global warming, says the Federal Government’s chief scientist.
Prof Penny Sackett yesterday urged all Australians to reduce their carbon footprint.

The professor said even if all the world stopped producing carbon dioxide immediately, temperature increases of 1.3C were unavoidable.

Asked to explain data that showed the earth had been cooling in recent years, the trained astrophysicist acknowledged air temperatures had leveled during the La Nina weather pattern, now nearing an end.”

Disastrous Global Warming will be locked in by Thursday I would say. Start packing the bunker.

Penny Sackett was the director of the Research School of Astronomy and Astrophysics (a part of ANU) for five years. From  2008 – 2011 she was appointed Chief Scientist of Australia. She was there in June 2009 with Will Steffen and Minister Penny Wong, when Steve Fielding brought skeptics Evans, Carter, Franks and Kininmonth to Parliament.

h/t to Robbo.

 

 

VN:F [1.9.22_1171]
Rating: 8.9/10 (163 votes cast)
Only three days left to save The Earth, 8.9 out of 10 based on 163 ratings

Tiny Url for this post: http://tinyurl.com/lkp2jfx

327 comments to Only three days left to save The Earth

  • #
    Paul in Sweden

    Three days left to save the world… That ain’t gunna happen. Drat! Why couldn’t the last day have been today! Tomorrow the wife starts Christmas shopping!!!

    670

    • #

      Look at it this way, Paul. You won’t be paying the credit card bills. It’s also a great excuse to see what was bought for Christmas early.

      330

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        I also think its worth just point out also that CAGW is a communist trojan horse, and make no apologies about naming it.

        The last GG was so left wing it was embarrassing. The problem with society now is that people look for the best ion people but are oblivious that the fabians are very good and wearing suits but happy to sell out everyone into North Korean styl;e slavery.

        182

      • #
        PhilJourdan

        Yea, but if Neo Harold Camping is wrong, ouch! The interest will eat you alive!

        10

      • #
        Craig Thomas

        Sheri’s comment epitomises the paucity of reasoning apparent in most comments here.

        Did Sackett say the world would end at this date?

        If not, what *did* she say?

        02

        • #

          No, she said “We’ve got 5 years to save world”. There’s no reason to worry about credit card bills, etc, when we are about to have a climate apocalypse. It should be enough that we have to figure out how to deal with rising oceans, increasing storms, arctic ice melt, the equator too hot to support any type of life. I’m just being pragmatic.

          Of course, the other possibility is we have already done everything necessary and the world is fine. Personally, I’m partial to that one. Penny gets to keep her credibility and we can stop worrying about a climate apocalypse.

          10

          • #
            the Griss

            Ah Sheri,

            So long as China and India and Germany and everyone else keep pumping out live-giving CO2..

            ….the world will do just fine. :-)

            10

          • #
            Craig Thomas

            “about to have a climate apocalypse”

            Still not what Penny Sackett said. Why must you engage in alarmist speculation like this?

            01

            • #

              Craig—I learned it from reading all those alarmist sights written by the true believers. Sorry your side has such poorly represented individuals on the net. (I’m sorry the skeptics do to—yet the alarmists use whatever rhetoric they like from skeptics. Now, If you want to stop sounding like a true believer and more like a scientist, maybe I’d use nicer terms. It’s up to you. I tend to answer in the same tone the commenter uses. I can be nice if you are.)

              00

        • #
          Rod Stuart

          She resigned in 2011 but until then would drool with the rabies of climate alarmism.

          10

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Given its the Left thatare causing this problem, maybe its time to start teaching our kids about the Red Menace again.

      It occurred to me that while capitalism isnt sqeaky clean or problem free, and McCarthy was a bit overboard, the problem we have now is that kids and parents arent shown what to look for by way of extreme left infiltration in society.

      Skousens “The Naked Communist” should be required reading.

      Without vigilence, this society will sleep walk into Red slavery.

      162

      • #
        Rod Stuart

        Have a look at “American Betrayal” by Diana West. McCarthy was pretty much right on the money. If he hadn’t been considered “over the top” we wouldn’t have this problem today.

        130

      • #
        Glen Michel

        All in cycles my friend – I hope! Oh just for a few more rational and pragmatic people!!

        30

      • #
        NielsZoo

        Take a look at Ann Coulter’s book “Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism.” She gets into what actually happened with McCarthy, the real history not the lefty academic and Hollywood versions. The vast majority of the witch hunting attributed to McCarthy was actually done by HUAC (The House Un-American Activities Committee) and the FBI. McCarthy was a Senator and had nothing to do with any of that. He simply made the extremely valid point that Communists or those who sympathized with the Communist cause should not be working in government jobs where they could have access to secrets. He didn’t even want them fired, just moved into non-sensitive jobs where they could do no harm.

        90

      • #
        gai

        There is also Kent Clizbe’s book Willing Accomplices

        Kent was a Red Diaper Baby (his father was an American Communist) and then a CIA Counterintelligence analyst.

        The book Spies: The Rise and Fall of the KGB in America by a KGB officer, Alexander Vassilev, is a nice companion. However considering more KGB spies were arrested in 2010 I am not so sure about the “Fall” part.

        As Kent points out the damage was done when Willi Muenzenberg’s payload was delivered to naive Americans. The targets were our news media, Hollywood and our education system. The book Spies makes it clear that the majority of KGB agents were journalists such as Ernest Hemingway and I. F. Stone.

        The covert influence operations that Kent Clizbe details in his book, were what Khrushchev was referring to when he said:

        “Your children will live under communism. “You Americans are so gullible. No, you won’t accept Communism outright; but we’ll keep feeding you small doses of Socialism until you will finally wake up and find that you already have Communism. We won’t have to fight you; we’ll so weaken your economy, until you fall like overripe fruit into our hands.”

        (Seems Khrushchev knew exactly what he was talking about when he talked of weakening our economies.)

        From Willing Accomplices:

        The goal of the operations was to make Americans feel that their country was bad. The KGB utilized Willing Accomplices to spread the message that America was an evil, racist, imperialist war- monger and that Communism was a benign, noble experiment designed to rid the world of corruption, oppression and injustice.

        Covert Influence Payload
        Babette Gross, wife of KGB agent Willi Muenzenberg, explained the content of the Soviet payload to Stephen Koch:

        * You claim to be an independent-minded idealist.
        * You don’t really understand politics, but you think the little guy is getting a lousy break.
        * You believe in open-mindedness.
        * You are shocked, frightened by what is going on right here in our own country.
        * You’re frightened by the racism, by the oppression of the workingman.
        * You think the Russians are trying a great human experiment, and you hope it works.
        * You believe in peace.
        * You yearn for international understanding.
        * You hate fascism.
        * You think the capitalist system is corrupt.

        This payload exactly matches today’s PC-Progressive message. The message that Soviet covert operators propagated…

        50

    • #
      aussieguy

      LOL! Don’t you just love the Left’s academic-intellectual-political-activist-elite appointments like Professor Penny Sackett, Professor Gillian Triggs, etc?

      The Left has created its own industry on the taxpayer dime. Preach like TV Evangelists with the narratives they have created, and watch all the taxpayer money flow into their pockets!

      eg: Gillian Triggs gets approx $300K of our money to spread her BS. Her dept (Human Rights Commission) consumes roughly $27 million per year. They also love to have lavish dinner party-meetings among themselves on our dime! With $27 million consumed every year, those who are footing should ask of the HRC: What breaches in rights are the HRC investigating? How many cases have they taken to court that was successful? Exactly what are they doing with the $27 million they get every year?


      Worse still, it certainly doesn’t help when the Conservative side of politics continues to play the “nice guy” when it should be taking its gloves off and bitch-slapping every Leftie who resides on this island called Australia. Abbott needs to do what Scott Morrison and Peter Costello does to Lefties; hold the Left’s BS accountable and show how stupid their thinking is. Once you do, they go mysteriously silent! Look at this example…

      Gillian Triggs vs Scott Morrison.
      => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqelojjTmDc
      (Skip to about 4 min 30 sec. Now just sit back and watch with popcorn. Watch how Triggs’s own demeanor of being a moral-superior-Leftie suddenly collapses as she tries to change the subject! Also note how Morrison is rolling his eyes right in the end of the video! Damn funny!)


      Better yet, watch this Greenie get owned by an indigenous protester!
      => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9rT1KogXYg
      (This confirms extreme Leftists are more concerned with THEIR OWN narratives than people. ie: Ideas over People.)


      They always claim they have “big hearts”, “well intended”, or have compassion. But what is compassion if its not guided by any wisdom? It leads to this strange ignorance that is fueled by arrogance of “knowing what’s good for everyone”. They convince themselves that justice is on their side, and this allows them to do anything without a care. (Ends justifies the means; you can’t make an omlett without breaking some eggs, etc).

      You can see it with Jo’s article of Professor Penny Sackett. Making absolute BS claims that won’t happen. Outlandish lies are pushed out because they know NO ONE will hold them accountable. They really are like children. They like to push the boundaries until an adult takes them down a few pegs for saying or doing something stupid.

      200

    • #

      Paul in Sweden – you are a martyr – “old mate”.

      50

  • #

    Heavens to Betsy! I exclaim.

    Thanks for the reminder, Jo.

    250

    • #

      On Oct 27, 2014 at 12:19 AM I wrote of Sao Paulo

      The lack of water infrastructure in the city has been well known for many years. This includes frequent flooding when there is heavy rainfall due to an excess of concrete and inadequate drainage systems.

      On Nov 29, 2014 at 7:23 PM Entropic Man wrote

      Floods on Wednesday in Sao Paulo . The weather gods have a keen sense of irony.
      It has not done much to help the drought.

      EM – The flooding is due to poor infrastructure, as is the critically low level of the reservoirs. Failure to allow for these factors gives an exaggerated impression of the natural severity of the drought.
      I also remember when the droughts in England broke in both 2012 and 2006. There were doomsayers who said that the water tables could take years to recover, it at all. It was a similar case with the great Australian drought. They were wrong.

      432

      • #
        Leigh

        And Thursday I’ll be going fishing in a dam that wasn’t supposed fill.

        260

        • #
          gary turner

          With any luck, the world’s end will happen as you boat the largest fish you’ve ever caught.

          50

          • #
            panzerJ

            And if it does end the only person he will be able to brag to will be St Peter,and Peter will tell him about the time some fellow on the shore told him to throw the net over the other side of the boat and the size and amount of fish that he caught nearly sank his boat.

            120

      • #
        Radical Rodent

        The fact that they are consistently wrong does not shake these people’s conviction that they are right – just look at the following that Ehrlich still has, and he has not been right in any of his predictions over some four decades. Entropic Mann gets more and more convinced that his analyses and predictions are right as more and more show that he is wrong. To save your sanity, Kevin, drop your responses; should you continue, you will find that you cannot let any stupid comment made go unchallenged – I should know; I should probably try to get counselling (if I actually believed in that!).

        90

      • #

        Kevin,
        The worst thing you can possibly have for flooding is excess concrete.

        50

  • #
    Mike Smith

    Brilliant. This fool isn’t any more of a scientist than the idiot on the street with his “The end is nigh” sandwich board.

    But it is very sweet picturing the alarmists in context.

    300

  • #
    C.J.Richards

    “Disastrous Global Warming will be locked in by Thursday I would say. ”

    Will that be AM or PM ?

    I’ve got the plumber coming in the morning ?

    420

    • #
      Paul in Sweden

      After an 18 years of hiatus anthropogenic CO2 emissions should be well rested and ready to kick in Thursday just like the experts predicted.

      270

      • #

        After an 18 years of hiatus anthropogenic CO2 emissions should be well rested and ready to kick in Thursday just like the experts predicted.

        Well may we laugh at the antics of the alarmists trying to explain away the 18 year ‘pause – hiatus – whatever’

        Now let me ask LUKE-WARM SCEPTICS THE SAME QUESTION…What’s causing the hiatus-pause-whatever?
        ..
        ..
        crickets
        ..
        chirp
        ..
        “Natural Variability”

        Well there’s your problem. Sceptics are arguing THE EXACT SAME THING AS THE ALARMISTS yet the alarmists have the worlds scientific societies, journals, environment journos etc etc and sceptics are self-educated (about AGW) bloggers. Huya gunna believe?

        Reminds me of the conservative parties in the Anglosphere who are playing politics on the lefts home ground and getting pounded at every turn.

        40

        • #

          Climate (NOT weather) has always changed,
          Climate will always change.
          It is extremely likely that carbon dioxide has anything to do with climate change.

          00

        • #
          Len

          Not in the US of A a couple of weeks ago.

          10

        • #
          NielsZoo

          So prior to human influence the planet has been both almost wholly tropical and sub tropical with millions of more animal and plant species thriving on it and it has also been covered pole to pole with ice. That makes the “natural variability” answer the proper one even if the actual mechanisms remain unknown. If as little as 10 percent the billions of dollars/pounds/euros/fezzules that have been spent chasing wildly ridiculous CAGW hypothesis had been spent on actual science, we might have a better answer to that question. I’m not a fan of government sponsored science, but with the current crop of CAGW believers running academia no reasonable grad student or doctoral candidate is going to investigate natural causes if they wish to get a diploma. I’m personally drawn to orbital and solar perturbations as they appear to be the only influences with wavelengths long enough to fit our current understanding of history of the Earth at geologic time scales.

          60

          • #

            That makes the “natural variability” answer the proper one even if the actual mechanisms remain unknown.

            You’re not related to one D. Napthine or T Abbott are you?
            Who cares about the proper answer?
            Do you think the AGW Industry cares about the proper answer?

            Please read my comment again. It had nothing to do with climate science.

            10

    • #
      Ian Hill

      It would be AM.

      For reasons that were never explained to me my mother always said that April Fool’s Day only applied before noon.

      150

    • #
      warcroft

      CJRichards, its Telstra technician time. “Should arrive between the hours of 9am and 5pm”.

      83

    • #
      F. Ross

      Anyone know in which time zone the “END” begins and if it is Daylight Savings Time or just regular old standard time?

      90

      • #
        Matty

        Won’t it be like The Millenium Bug which began in NZ ?

        50

      • #
        Graeme No.3

        The poet Heine (before your time; approx. 1850) said that when the end of the world came he wanted to be in England, because everything there seemed to be delayed for about 100 years.

        TIP: don’t go there in winter, it’s cold, wet and a strong likelyhood of blackouts.

        90

  • #
    Athelstan.

    You can never say never, I mean a small part of Yellowstone might just decide it’s had enough of mankind, the Siberian traps might ‘warm up’, in either case most of us up here in the NH – would be done for.
    But…thermogeddon due to man made CO² emissions causing “disastrous global warming” – I’d say that, the lady has been smoking some illegal and mind bending substance.

    Somebody, in fact we all should – shout it! To inform these government shills even those living in the stratosphere and astro-turfing physicists ‘on the take’ [Jo public don't believe you btw] – that, the world loves CO² – it’s a lovely greening gas, and we want more of it!

    300

  • #
    handjive

    Wang Chao-hung, better known as “Teacher Wang”, stirred up a media frenzy after he “predicted” a giant quake and tsunami would hit Taiwan on May 11, urging people to move into makeshift shelters converted from cargo containers.

    Mr Wang later claimed that his remarks were misinterpreted by journalists when the catastrophe failed to materialise, but he was convicted by a district court in Nantou, central Taiwan, of spreading socially disruptive rumours.

    http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/man-fined-for-dud-doomsday-warning/story-fn6ck55c-1226080950490

    150

    • #
      C.J.Richards

      Better keeping his trap shut then ? Like these Italian Geologists convicted for failing to predict the Aquila Earthquake.
      http://www.theverge.com/2014/11/11/7193391/italy-judges-clear-geologists-manslaughter-laquila-earthquake-fear

      A conviction that has only been overturned this month.

      140

      • #
        Ted O'Brien.

        Now I think we may have an even more insidious case under way in Queensland. A claim against the management of the Wivenhoe dam during the 2010 floods. A claim which may well be eventually settled not on the basis of law, but on the basis that continuation of the defence will cost more than to accept the demands of the plaintiffs.

        I in central NSW was due to travel on the first day to SE Queensland, but was warned that the rain was so heavy that floods were likely. So I watched from a distance.

        The Wivenhoe dam was managed well, save that the gates should have been opened a little earlier, but by not reasonably by more than four hours. It appeared that the authorities were so shocked by the Lockyer Valley and Toowoomba floods that they failed to notice for about four hours that it was again raining at two inches an hour across the Wivenhoe catchment, and continued to do so for four hours or more. I recall that one gauge on the Lockyer near Wivenhoe registered 11 inches that morning in not much more than four hours.

        The lawyers who claim on the basis of weather forecasts are ignoring the prior history of the event, when years of drought had seen water scarcity in a rapidly developing urban area as the dominating issue. Then there was Flannery’s declaration that “It ain’t gonna rain no mo’, no mo’, It ain’t gonna rain no mo’!” Wrong though we knew he was, Flannery was a man of high official position. People in public office could not safely ignore him without a strenuously prepared argument.

        201

        • #
          Ted O'Brien.

          I should have looked this up a long time ago. I knew the song all my life, but never heard it recorded. There is an unlimited supply of further verses.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNM7nUUQ3qE

          40

        • #
          Dsystem

          The Wivenhoe dam was primarily designed to protect Brisbane from the floods that had been common. A secondary and obvious function was to provide water supply for Brisbane. When “100%” full according to its design level, the dam could still carry another 100% to mitigate floods.

          Because of the scare of Global Warming and the drought it was supposedly causing, the dam was allowed to fill above its primary design level to 198%, because it “even the rain that falls won’t fill the dams”.

          So when the rains did fall, there was no room left to mitigate the flooding. The primary design function of the dam had been replaced by the secondary function by stealth by the Global Warming scare. I blame the Global Warming scare and those responsible for peddling it for the flooding of Brisbane. These people must be brought to account!

          261

          • #
            ian hilliar

            So the lawers should be suing Tim Flannery, except he would just cry poor. He probably has transferred his waterfront property into his wife’s name, just in case.

            81

          • #
            edwina

            Also the Wolfedene Dam planned at the base of Mt.Tamborine was scuttled as a promise in 1989 by the late Wayne Goss’ right hand man, Kevin Rudd. For years we used to travel up the mountain every month to visit relatives. One even built a house to look over the projected lake that would be created. Along the way, below, there was a triangle sign every 100m crying “NO DAM”. The country around about was not pristine. There was a pine plantation and many run down hobby farms…not real producing ones. What was amazing, to me, was the electorate was not needed by Labor since it won by a landslide in any case. The dam would have provided SE QLD for years to come because it was not a flood mitigation one and the rainfall is twice that of the Wivenhoe catchment. So the Wivenhoe could have been allowed to fill even lower than the 50% benchmark enabling even more flood mitigation. Now, we live in a nation intent on NOT building dams so the chance of a Wolfedene has gone.

            61

          • #
            Robert O

            What you say about the Wivenhoe Dam makes sense when its primary role of flood mitigation is overtaken by its secondary function of water supply. It’s common sense to have excess dam capacity before the wet season. However, what is the real cost of governments taking notice of the climate scientists saying that it will never rain again, our children will never see snow, the need for de-salination plants…? Quite a lot, and the problem seems to be that most of these people are still employed espousing their cause.

            61

        • #
          old44

          The fool is a bone collector,

          30

        • #
          The Backslider

          even the rain that falls won’t fill the dams

          Perhaps it is Flannery who should be sued.

          90

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      But one of his relatives did make a reasonable profit from selling of a whole lot of second and third-hand shipping containers, I understand. ;-)

      120

  • #
    richrsd

    There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that the earth has anything to worry about now or in the future, show me climate alarmists or their acolytes and they frighten the life out of me.

    90

  • #
    handjive

    97% certified Doomsday Global Warming Update:

    One year to save the planet from climate change disaster Ed Davey warns.

    “Agreeing global deal to cut carbon emissions next year is only way to protect “way of life we take for granted”, energy secretary says, ahead of UN climate change summit in Lima.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/11262835/One-year-to-save-the-planet-from-climate-change-disaster-Ed-Davey-warns.html
    . . .
    Worst Apocalypse. Ever.

    200

    • #
      C.J.Richards

      2015 is election year. The year to save the Planet from Ed Davey.

      160

      • #
        Peter Miller

        Sorry for the ad hominem, but Ed Davey is the most useless, incompetent minister in the UK’s coalition government.

        What this guy knows about science and climate can be written on the back of a stamp in large letters, what he thinks he thinks he knows would fill volumes.

        Ed Davey is one of those ecoloons who is an ardent believer in energy poverty for the less well off in the UK and a fanatic supporter of unreliable expensive energy, while simultaneously closing down the cheap reliable type.

        The economic damage Ed Davey and his thinkalikes are doing to western world economies is incalculable.

        340

        • #
          Graeme No.3

          Peter Miller:

          Thank you; you said what I think, but you managed to do it with much more polite language.

          120

    • #
      the Griss

      Except that in a way, Ed Davey is correct.

      ACCEPTING the Global Warming agenda WILL be the end of the “way of life we take for granted”.

      That is the WHOLE AIM of the Paris exercise. !!

      100

      • #
        panzerJ

        A self fulfilling prophecy if I’ve ever seen one.
        Once the power is turned off and food shortages cause mass starvation then they will be in their element to say -”See we told ya so climate change is to blame”.

        60

    • #
      Robert O

      Still yet to see a valid relationship which attributes temperature increase to increasing levels of CO2. I thought CO2 levels were increasing and global temperatures have been static for 18 years!

      41

    • #
      Owen Morgan

      Lima is such an odd place to go and gripe about the climate. Even if man-made climate change were genuine, the Limenos would probably be the last people on Earth to find out, because the weather – whoops! climate – only ever changes in an El Nino year and it’s permanently foggy, the rest of the time.

      I notice the Telegraph article really drew the diehard warmists out of their foxholes. I liked the one (well “liked” is possibly applying the term somewhat loosely) who called sceptics “desperate”. These people remind me of those Japanese soldiers who used to emerge on Pacific islands, circa 1975, not having realised that the war was over.

      Ed Davey is really begging for a new “Downfall” satire. “If we don’t act now, the Russians will be in Berlin yesterday…errmmm, no, maybe next year, or the year after that.”

      20

  • #
    Pat Frank

    I just read through David Evans’ description of the meeting with Penny Wong along with “Chief Scientist Professor Penny Sackett, science adviser Professor Will Steffen.”

    All very interesting and congratulations to David and his colleagues for their forbearance. The only real surprise was that the meeting happened at all.

    One expects that Penny Sackett and Will Steffen were chagrined to be dragooned into meeting skeptical scientists on equal terms, and would have declined the meeting if given the choice.

    Two thoughts occurred to me while reading. First is that, trained in physics though she is, it has apparently never occurred to Penny Sackett to apply physical error analysis to climate model outputs. Jim Hansen has never done that either — at least not in public — and like Sackett he is a trained astrophysicist. One wonders if that correspondence is evidence of poor training within that discipline.

    Were she to do that, all her certainties about AGW would vanish under very large error bars.

    Second, with regard to sources of warming, it also appears that Sackett and Steffen have never realized that the climate subsystems are a set of coupled oscillators. This means that energy is readily exchanged among them.

    In this sense, the air temperature can rise — or fall — because of spontaneous energy transfers between oscillating climate sub-systems, and all without any net change in energy flux at all.

    Richard Lindzen made this point probably 20 years ago. It’s fundamental to the climate system, and to the physical behavior of coupled oscillators, yet it nevertheless escapes the grasp of such highly trained physicists as Penny Sackett.

    The coupled oscillator idea puts to rest all the business of the change in solar irradiance being not enough to account for the change in air temperature. There need be no change in irradiance at all for global air temperature to change across decades. Iso-energetic internal dynamics is sufficient to be the cause of everything we’ve seen.

    Sackett and Steffen are stuck in physically linear thinking concerning a very non-linear system. Their belief in AGW has literally made them scientifically incompetent.

    That last leads to one more observation. David Evans, Stewart Franks, William Kininmonth, and Bob Carter are all examples of scientists able to think beyond the normative AGW paradigm, and who have resisted the intense pressures to believe.

    Somehow their minds are immune from the disease of belief infecting a very large fraction of all otherwise equally well-trained scientists. I recently listened to a lecture by Prof. Ernest Moniz, Secretary of the US Dept. of Energy and a nuclear physicist from MIT. He’s a total believer in AGW. How does that happen?

    There must be a natural history of belief, like there is a natural history of disease. Some 1%-5% of the population is naturally immune to virtually any pandemic. Is it also true that 1-5% of the population is strong-minded enough to resist succumbing to insistent beliefs?

    Are the minds of Bob Carter, David Evans, et al., somehow wired differently than those of Ernest Moniz et al., such that the former are better able to parse nonsense than the latter, despite approximate parity in intelligence?

    It’s one of the large puzzles of our age.

    340

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      Pat, I think you might find, as I did, that there is a correlation between the source of funding, and the interpretation of observations.

      In the area of causation I note that James Hansen was employed by the government, when the current “discussion” started, so I think that Government funding probably came first, and the rest followed. But that is only my opinion, you might not agree.

      150

      • #
        Pat Frank

        Rereke, you may be right. But note that when James Hansen testified his 99% belief before Congress in 1988, that AGW was already apparent, there was little funding for climate science and he was already secure in his job at GISS. He could not anticipate then, the astonishing future we all regard now as our immediate past.

        In his case, I think he was already self-convinced. He, and I suspect a large fraction of AGW-promoting scientists, were and are already certain of the answer before actually knowing the answer. That is, they elevated their inner eco-convictions above the state of their scientific knowledge.

        Their inner certainty was enough to convince them that CO2 emissions would indeed produce the warming effect they anticipated.

        Convinced enough to testify their inchoate convictions as actual certainties before Congress, convinced enough to elevate climate model graphics above physical data, convinced enough to tendentiously adjust temperature data, and so forth.

        In a way, they bet on the come, as regards CO2 and climate.

        AGW wasn’t visible then (or now), but it would become visible. The were (and are) convinced they’d be rescued by a hot future, and thus vindicated would never have to answer for their willful incompetences and tendentious dishonesties.

        Sociologists will eventually have a field day with these people.

        160

        • #
          ianl8888


          He, and I suspect a large fraction of AGW-promoting scientists, were and are already certain of the answer before actually knowing the answer. That is, they elevated their inner eco-convictions above the state of their scientific knowledge

          The siren pull of noble cause corruption, enabled by an impregnable vanity

          In the depths of my heart, I’ve always thought these people were somewhat unhinged, a little off-centre, one or two bricks short of a full load, subtly crazy …

          And again from the depths of my heart, they have won. They have managed to scare sufficient of the populace for politicians to take confused, damaging actions

          130

        • #
          Andrew McRae

          AGW wasn’t visible then (or now), but it would become visible.

          Sort of like this projection? A brief explanation is here.

          20

        • #
          Yeahbut

          Eventually. We gotta stop the stupidity now.

          10

        • #
          gai

          Pat

          You are missing the fact that CAGW was ALREADY a political cause of the UN in 1972. Hansen just joined the already moving bandwagon.

          As Elaine Dewar wrote in Toronto’s Saturday Night magazine:

          It is instructive to read Strong’s 1972 Stockholm speech and compare it with the issues of Earth Summit 1992. Strong warned urgently about global warming, the devastation of forests, the loss of biodiversity, polluted oceans, the population time bomb. Then as now, he invited to the conference the brand-new environmental NGOs [non-governmental organizations]: he gave them money to come; they were invited to raise hell at home. After Stockholm, environment issues became part of the administrative framework in Canada, the U.S., Britain, and Europe.

          IN the meantime, Strong continued the international networking on which his influence rests. He became a member of the World Commission on Environment and Development (the Brundtland Commission). He found time to serve as president of the World Federation of United Nations Associations, on the executive committee of the Society for International Development, and as an advisor to the Rockefeller Foundation and the World Wildlife Fund. Above all, he served on the Commission on Global Governance — which, as we shall see, plays a crucial part in the international power grab.

          “In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill….All these dangers are caused by human intervention….and thus the “real enemy, then, is humanity itself….believe humanity requires a common motivation, namely a common adversary in order to realize world government. It does not matter if this common enemy is “a real one or….one invented for the purpose.” ~ Club of Rome

          At least in the USA the Colleges and Universities are dominated by the Socialists. Science takes a backseat. Heck science doesn’t even make it onto the bus!

          The Philosophy Of Karl Marx

          The philosophical bases of Marx’s thought were laid early and remained unchanged throughout his life. As a student, Marx accepted the philosophy of Hegel as the only sound and adequate explanation of the universe. According to this philosophy, “the only immutable thing is the abstraction of movement.” The one universal phenomenon is change, and the only universal form of this phenomenon is its complete abstraction. Thus, Hegel accepted as real only that which existed in the mind. Objective phenomena and events were of no consequence; only the conceptions of them possessed by human minds were real. Ideas, not objects, were the stuff of which the universe was made. The universe and all events therein existed and took place only in the mind, and any change was a change in ideas….

          Consequently, in this realm of the mind within which the universe had its only real existence, innumerable theses and antitheses existed. Struggle or conflict was the en-evitable fact in such a universe—conflict of the thesis with its antithesis. In this struggle thesis and antithesis acted and reacted on each other, and a new phenomenon—synthesis—was created. All action or change occurring in the universe was, under the Hegelian philosophy, the product of thesis, antithesis, and resulting synthesis—all in the realm of ideas, since objective reality could exist only in that sphere. Since this process was universal and never ending, it offered a complete explanation of the causal processes creating all phenomena within the universe…

          The belief in the Hegelian/Marx philosophy (and I got a dose of it at school) is the reason why there is such an emphasis by Warmists on a CONSENSUS.

          In the Hegelian/Marx philosophy the consensus represents the resulting synthesis. Once that synthesis/consensus has been reached it is time to move on to the next phase mitigation.

          This is why “The debate is over” T

          This is why no further scientific evidence will be looked at.

          These people, insulated from reality in their ivory towers and their city condos truly believe there is no objective reality.

          40

      • #

        I think you might find, as I did, that there is a correlation between the source of funding, and the interpretation of observations.

        Not so Rereke. One of our greatest sources of funding was The Australian Greenhouse Office. We were on that green gravy train just like they were.

        Observations are observations.

        80

    • #
      redress

      Contrast with this astrophysicist Piers Corbyn, MSc (astrophysics), ARCS, FRAS, FRMetS

      http://www.weatheraction.com/pages/pv.asp?p=wact37

      Wish he would turn his forecasting to Australia.

      80

      • #
        Craig Thomas

        Why do you want inaccurate weather forecasting?

        02

        • #
          the Griss

          Wouldn’t, that’s why you generally ignore the Met and BOM for anything over 2 days away.

          Piers has a record of being FAR more accurate that the British MET office.

          In fact, a coin would be far more accurate than the Met office !!

          00

    • #
      ian hilliar

      It has been said that humans have a religion shaped hole in their heads. I prefer to believe we have a “magic” shaped hole in our heads. Same thing. And the Church of the Green Apocalypse ticks all the boxes for both religion and magic. The reason some of us have difficulties with these beliefs is a basic sense of logical thought. Perhaps we should get back to basics and teach logic at school? I ask my medical students and registrars to take the “Junk Science Judo ” course on the net. Short sweet, and to the point.

      50

    • #
      gai

      Pat, you say:
      “I recently listened to a lecture by Prof. Ernest Moniz, Secretary of the US Dept. of Energy and a nuclear physicist from MIT. He’s a total believer in AGW. How does that happen?”

      Dr Happer answered how it happens.

      Happer, who served as the Director of Energy Research at the Department of Energy in 1993, says he was fired by Gore in 1993 for not going along with Gore’s scientific views on ozone and climate issues. “I was told that science was not going to intrude on policy,” Happer explained in 1993.

      http://www.epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=5ef55aa3-802a-23ad-4ce4-89c4f49995d2

      40

  • #
    Yonniestone

    This just goes to prove there’s a 5 year lag between CO2 rising and runaway ACS’s.

    70

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    Does this mean that three days from now I’ll be free of climate change? After all, the Earth clearly doesn’t need saving today and that isn’t likely to change in only three days.

    Sorry. But a guy can at least hope, right?

    120

    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Such a definitive, unambiguous opinion too. It’s such a shame to see it go to waste.

      Anyone know if Ms. Sackett has been served a very generous helping of crow yet? ;-)

      140

      • #
        Rod Stuart

        Why not send her a note, Roy?
        Her email address is penny.sackett@anu.edu.au
        She is doing quite well, with tenure at a notoriously left wing university.
        Don’t count on an answer, however. She didn’t respond to my words of discouragement.

        130

        • #
          Safetyguy66

          Done….

          08:09 (0 minutes ago)
          to penny.sackett

          Hi Penny, I was wondering if you are taking bets on life on earth ending this week as per your prediction of 5 years ago please?

          If so please put me down for $5000, even money will be fine.

          Cheers

          Peter Martin

          Tasmania (assuming its still here)

          140

          • #
            Paul in Sweden

            Is Penny licensed to predict catastrophe? Hair dressers & Hot Dog vendors must hold licenses, be subject to rigorous audit and maintain ethical & responsible practices. Why is it that so many that effect such large portions of the economy and quality of life for the masses are immune to the consequences of their irresponsible or nefarious behavior?

            180

            • #
              JJM Gommers

              In this case it should be possible to confront her in 2020 with her statement and in caseArmagedon didn’t become true she should be discharged from her position.
              Normally the warmists use the IPCC as their alibi, 97% consensus, the absolute truth

              60

        • #
          the Griss

          These clowns really have made targets of themselves, haven’t they !! :-)

          130

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          Rod,

          I learned a long time ago that it’s useless to…

          - Tell people I think they’re wrong
          - Tell people I think they should do this or that, whether or not I think they’re wrong
          - Add my voice to a petition (how far did the petition project get?)
          - Protest the way the angry mob in Ferguson, Missouri did. There are better ways of protesting if you rally want to do it.

          I do take care to determine whether my local elected officials are receptive to requests to handle problems and my representative on the County Board of Supervisors is one of those. She listens to her constituents and works to solve real problems. So here where I live we’ve dodged a potentially expensive bullet aimed at us, all because of her effort on our behalf. Unfortunately the board was 2:3 against the real solution so the problem will come back around sooner or later.

          No one at the state or federal level is worth a flying fig. Read that as you think I mean it.

          80

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            Since I mentioned Ferguson…

            The angry mob has won, not that they don’t have a complaint, they really do. But the no guts police department and mayor only now, with half the downtown area in ruins, are willing to tackle some useful reforms. It’s all a day late and a dollar short and very much in concert with the way government handles hot button items — hope they’ll go away until they blow up in your face.

            Officer Wilson (shot Michael Brown) has resigned, I suspect under pressure after threats were made against police generally and government officials by the mob in the streets. So he loses everything for doing exactly what any police officer anywhere would do under the circumstances.

            George Stephanopoulos interviewed Wilson for ABC (ours, not yours) and had the gall to put Darin Wilson’s post event emotions and thinking on trial rather than letting it stop at his actions. So we have come to the point where the thought police are let loose on us.

            So do you blame me for knowing what’s hopeless to do?

            80

            • #

              All the Police should have resigned.

              The people will not consent to the rule of law as enforced by one officer and demonstrate that won’t when enforced by others.

              40

              • #
                Roy Hogue

                Bernd,

                There really is a problem in Ferguson but it’s not the fact that a white cop shot a black man when in justifiable fear for his (the cop’s) safety. If I had been Daren Wilson I would have fired too. So I don’t think mass resignation would help anything. But you’re right, there’s a faction that doesn’t want to submit to the rule of law because unfortunately they don’t trust the law to be just and even handed. They let long standing frustration and frankly, all the BS they’ve been fed by the likes of Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson and others, take over their thinking and it turned into what the whole world saw in real time. And with outside agitators, provocateurs, coming in with the obvious intent of stirring up violence, Ferguson had no chance.

                Governor Nixon fed the fire all along with his almost immediate call for a speedy prosecution when he should have been a leader instead of a damned judge. He then didn’t let the national guard help to contain the crowd until it was far too late.

                The police department handled the incident poorly from the start. I would be angry at them myself for leaving Michael Brown’s body lying in the street for four hours, uncovered, without the slightest regard for the fact that he was a fellow human being who had committed no crime worthy of a death sentence until he attacked an armed police officer. And not even that carries a death sentence except if you force that cop to defend himself.

                It didn’t help any that a lot more people than I would have suspected don’t understand the purpose of a grand jury. Even reporters, supposedly well educated, don’t understand it. And they don’t understand that attacking a police officer has consequences that are immediate and possibly deadly.

                Running on ignorance is the best way I know to describe the Ferguson mob and the MSM. And it fed a tragedy all the fuel it needed to go off like a bomb.

                The history of race relations in this country is anything but Martin Luther King’s dream of a color blind society in many places.

                40

              • #
                gai

                It was an election year ploy to galvanize the black vote for the democrats.

                They pulled the same crap the election before. Judicial Watch has used FOIA to uncover the nasty mess…. TWICE.

                Documents Obtained by Judicial Watch Detail Role of Justice Department in Organizing Trayvon Martin Protests

                Documents Obtained by Judicial Watch Reveal Justice Department Sent Community Relations Service Agents to Ferguson

                In both cases the people ‘defended’ were not upstanding citizens. The words ‘young thugs’ comes to mind.

                I am very much against police brutality. My Dad was beat up by the police for no reason and I hate the militarization of the police BY THIS ADMIN!

                If as President you wanted to make a statement why not pick the Native American deaf wood carver walking across the street with a knife and piece of wood that he is carving. (The knife is of legal length BTW) Photos of the dead body show a CLOSED folding knife. Accounts say the carver closed the knife just before he was shot.

                http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/the-buck-stops-with-nobody/Content?oid=4832659

                http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/court-releases-video-deadly-police-shooting-native-american-seattle/
                (Has video)

                20

              • #
                Roy Hogue

                gai,

                Thanks for those links. I’ve not been able to follow Judicial Watch as closely as I would like to, so those revelations are news to me. But I’m not really surprised. The Holder Justice Department is clearly corrupt and it’s not going to change with his replacement. The problem is in the White House.

                Politics has no place in the justice system. If the laws are not honestly administered the same way for everyone then there is no law, only chaos.

                20

      • #
        jorgekafkazar

        Maybe she’s expecting a Nobel Prize.

        40

  • #
    Rereke Whakaaro

    I have come to the conclusion that being an astrophysicist, means that you’re thinking has to seriously be “out there”, and by “out there”, I mean literally light-centuries away.

    They are using highly sensitive radio receivers, connected to huge and highly precise antenna, to find, and identify incredibly small radio signals, emitted long before our solar system started to coalesce into what we observe today. They live in a “world” of electromagnetism.

    So I am surprised that Prof Sackett would not consider the shielding effect of the solar magnetic field, and the influence that has on the amount of cosmic radiation striking the Earth’s atmosphere, and the role that such cosmic particals play in seeding the condensation of water vapour in the upper atmosphere. Perhaps that is not “out there” enough for her?

    Perhaps she should review some of the work that Svensmark has been doing.

    220

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Rereke:

      I think you have put your finger right on it. They are always looking for signals from the past, so they aren’t receiving anything that is happening in the last, say, 18 years.

      70

    • #
      LevelGaze

      Rereke –

      You don’t have to be nuts to be an astrophysicist, and most astrophysicists aren’t.

      Gotta remember – Chief Scientist is a political appointment.

      71

      • #
        LevelGaze

        Ooh, a red thumb! Good, it gets me revved up.

        C’mon, how do you choose a new Chief Scientist? There’s a formula used by all sides. This is political, right?

        1. An obscure scientist in an obscure discipline that no-one’s ever heard of, but who has a really, really impressive CV that no-one really comprehends. Tick.

        2. Will be really awed and flattered to receive this appointment and to be elevated into The Ranks Of Power, Global Recognition and TV adoration (might even get a gig on I’m A Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here). Tick.

        3. Given 2 above and all the not inconsiderable monetary perks that go with the position, can s/he be relied upon to mouth the (current) government line as per script? Tick.

        Here endeth the lesson. Short, easy.
        So, we should be applauding Sackett’s resignation of the position, after a relatively short time, and with no public explanation at all. In this instance, I think, silence says quite a lot. It remains to be seen how Chubb will perform the task now there is a more sceptical AGW administration. But judging by comments he’s previously made he’ll have to change his tune quick smart if he wants to keep the job.

        50

  • #
    bemused

    That must be why we had such a warm night. The end is nigh!

    90

    • #

      But it was 5F here overnight. The climate is sending conflicting signals. It’s worse than we thought!!

      80

      • #
        Bobl

        Very sorry for your frost! Brrr! Knew there was a reason I live in subtropical Queensland… 5F that’s what, about -15C.. Brrrr, ever thought about moving?

        50

        • #

          bobl: Yes, −15C. Actually, I love the cold. Where I live (Wyoming) we have very wide swings in temperature. Yesterday, the high was 57F (14C), the temperature fell to the 5F in about 10 hours, it’s now 20F (-7C) and forecast to be colder tonight than last night (near zero). The rest of the week is forecast to be around 40F (4.5C) and lows around 20. It comes from living at high altitude near mountains—wind, temperature changes etc. I’ve always enjoyed winter more than summer, though this roller coaster ride can wear on the nerves some time!

          60

          • #

            Speaking of Wyoming, and it is off topic, but have a look at this short (4.34) video on Yellowstone National Park.

            Ignore the fact that it’s George Monbiot doing the narration.

            This is really interesting.

            How Wolves Change Rivers

            Tony.

            10

            • #

              Will check it out tomorrow, hopefully. My so-called high speed internet is about dialup speed right now, so no YouTube for tonight. The title sounds very interesting.

              20

            • #
              Rod Stuart

              Poor old George does not appear to know the difference between deer, elk, moose, and bison.

              40

              • #

                Rod-No, he is not confused. Wapiti means “light colored deer”, which wapiti was the original term for elk. They are also called “red deer”. I have often seen the “red deer” term in hunting magazines. I’m not sure it’s exaclty taxinomically correct for North American elk, but it’s very commonly used.

                20

              • #

                I should note that I found it confusing the first time I saw the term “deer” applied to elk. Nowadays, with the internet, I’ve gotten more used to looking things up to be sure they don’t mean something different in their country of origin. I have noticed in the past commenters on this blog trying to figure out what the equivalent term in America is to one in Australia. Globalization, I guess.

                20

            • #
              Greg Cavanagh

              I would need to see the notes, photos, and head counts for the last 50years by the rangers, before I believed anything Monbiot said.

              30

              • #

                Greg—A few observations. First, I have been to Yellowstone and have not seen any evidence that the elk “ate everything off to the ground”. There’s a feeding ground there for winter and elk are very mobile creatures. It seems a fairly large exaggeration. Second, based on other wildlife readings, wolves dine on beavers. It was reported that in the area around Chernobyl, when wolves returned, the beaver population decreased. It’s interesting that claim that the opposite occured here.

                Speaking of Chernobyl, the explanations and ideas in the video look extremely close to that reported at Chernobyl, except for the wolves eating the beavers at Chernobyl. What he is describing is just nature—and since he’s a fan of wolves, he’s cheering when they win. Others were cheering when the elk won. If we followed the benefits of the larger herd of elk, I’m sure we could make a video just like Monbiot’s, only pro-elk. (With better video shooting, I would hope—my eyes were offended by the lack of quality in that video….)

                The elk are staying closer to roadways and out of some areas. This caused a problem this year because lazy hunters decided to flock shoot running elk from the road. Personally, I think they should have lost hunting priveleges for life, but that’s just me (they didn’t, of course). Why the elk are staying near the roads, I don’t know. No one does. As noted, elk are extremely mobile. They can travel over 50 miles in a day (if I remember correctly). That’s what makes hunting them difficult. They just run wherever hunters aren’t. It also makes it highly unlikley the elk would have eaten Yelllowstone down to a moonscape. The only creature I know of that does that is a prairie dog.

                20

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        But it was 5F here overnight.

        Sheri,

        Thanks for the reminder that I should be thankful when I wake up and outside temperature is in the 50s or high 40s. The lowest morning temp I can remember seeing was 29°. I don’t envy you those -20 and lower numbers you get every winter. I’ll be glad to let you have my share of that every winter. :-)

        I’m very happy to be a Southern California boy.

        00

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      Sorry my fault – I left one of the paddock gates open last night. Luckily the paddock was empty, otherwise it could have been worse than we thought.

      70

      • #
        The Backslider

        I was working on a cattle station in the Northern Territory when I was 17. We were trapping cattle in the evening as they came in to water. Somebody (me) forgot to open the gate….. the cattle patiently waited and when I finally realised and opened it we ended up trapping far more cattle than we normally would!

        50

  • #
    Ron C.

    Nope. I remember very well that Copenhagen 2009 was the last chance to stop global warming. All we can do now is prepare for the weather ahead. Having infrastructure ready for a return to 1950′s weather would be a good start. The money could come from unplugging the useless GCMs.

    110

  • #
    Scott L

    Can anyone name just one of their predictions that have come true?

    (has to be a pre diction not a post diction) I have to specify because they are want to confuse the two.

    110

  • #
    4TimesAYear

    I take it they mean an increase in the global average temp…and the planet just doesn’t run according to the average. It goes by real temps – and perhaps the number of days that are above/below freezing. Right now I’m concerned that we are having more days below freezing than we are above…

    60

  • #
    the Griss

    Don’t forget to set your alarm clocks on Wednesday evening. :-)

    60

  • #
    rabbit

    Environmentalists on the whole applauded the agreement by the world’s biggest CO2 emitter to peak its emissions in 16 years time. Not reduce, mind you, just peak.

    And at the same time they claim that we must drastically cut emissions starting yesterday or catastrophe is inevitable.

    The two don’t add up, unless you assume that cutting emissions isn’t really about cutting emissions, but something else such as “punishing western capitalism.”

    150

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      Well spotted!

      Environmentalists, in the main try to avoid using logic, preferring to rely instead, on appeals to emotion, appeals to majority, and several other logical fallacies.

      It is one of the reasons that debates between the parties generally devolve into emotive name calling.

      90

      • #
        Winston

        rabbit & Rereke,

        The reason such alarmism is allowed to flourish, is that there are no consequences (financially or even in reputation) for being wrong in a supposed “good cause”.

        No care or diligence is thus taken in speculative assertions that inflict damage upon others, and yet enrich or enhance the reputations of themselves. Alarmism is fashionable, and those of a leftist inclination dress themselves in its garb and finery in order to reinforce and aggrandise their own self-image and importance.

        It is therefore both the playground and the tool of the narcissist, who craves the undeserved recognition of others, and for whom measured analysis, cautious discussion and rigorous application of principles are completely anathema. It requires too much actual skill, too much consideration for consequences (both intended and unintended), and too much application without the benefit of a spotlight. If she had any intelligence, she would be ashamed of herself, but that would involve self-analysis and I doubt she would have the wherewithal to apply it.

        90

      • #
        Tim

        The advertising industry recognised long ago that emotion sells product. ‘Oh what a feeling’ trumps ‘Oh, what a power-to-weight ratio’ every time.

        40

  • #
    Leigh

    One can only hope that Wong will be publicly reminded of her over the top alarmism.
    As they all should be as another one of their over the top alarmism statements of “fact” is exposed for exactly what it is.
    The fact that mainstream media won’t report it speaks for itself.
    But if enough politicians make the point on the day, the public shaming will get reported.

    80

  • #
    Safetyguy66

    Bunch of fruit bats the lot of em.

    70

  • #
    handjive

    Look Out Jonova!

    New source of 97% certified Doomsday Weather information:

    Blue skies for Magdalena Roze: Her new lifestyle blog is based on the weather

    Her site, magdalenaroze.com, even includes an interactive feature, where people can directly ask Roze about major weather events.
    . . .
    This is gonna be fun. Pass the popcorn.

    50

  • #
    TdeF

    These are political appointments and you are hired on your preparedness to push the government line. This has nothing to do with science. Watch Yes Minister in which a belief in God was actually an impediment to being Archbishop of Canterbury.

    Even so, this prediction of unstoppable disaster in five years which required Australians and Australians alone to produce less CO2 was absurd. How was that going to make any difference? Again, it is what she was told to say because it made no sense and our failure to follow direction meant a punitive carbon tax in 2010. Again there was no logic which said a local carbon tax would reduce world temperature growth. It was a time of science fantasy especially from our Climate Commissioners. The pay was good though and you had nothing to do except sound sincere.

    However imagine if what was causing the slight growth in temperature at the end of the 1980s had actually continued. That would be proof enough for such scientists that CO2 was the culprit. The failure to keep increasing has proven the theory wrong but we were lucky. It was a 50/50 bet and now we are told the heat is ‘missing’, ‘hiding’, ‘overwhelmed’ and we are in a ‘hiatus’ not a turning point. What matters is what Chief Climate Commissioner Tim Flannery thinks will happen as he enjoys his well deserved coastal retreat.

    70

  • #

    She may have been right! Explosions heard in Britain and the US have variously been put down to aircraft, meteors or fireworks. But have they considered the possibility that the atmosphere over the Atlantic has become so hot it is spontaneously combusting!

    Wouldn’t you think warmists would be embarrassed for themselves?

    As an aside, I read years ago that explosions occurring out at sea have been heard frequently in New York. No, it was not Ragnar Danneskjold. New York had been for many years dumping tonnes or compacted garbage at sea and it was supposed that the sounds were caused by huge releases of methane from the garbage being ignited by lightning. You wouldn’t want to be sailing through the area, as some ship losses are being put down to sudden loss of buoyancy when gas is released from the sea floor.

    30

    • #
      gai

      No, NO

      You have that wrong!

      The explosions hear was from all the roofs in the City of Buffalo New York collapsing simultaneously from the unprecedented snow load. – A winter’s worth in one storm. (Up to seven feet! in some areas)

      (And they are having roof collapse problems)
      Roofs collapse under epic Buffalo snow

      20

      • #

        I was surprised by the number of people in Buffalo who do not appear to understand snow weight and load. As much snow as Buffalo gets, I would have thought residents would be fully stocked with snow blowers, roof rakes, etc. Perhaps it generally melts too fast?

        20

        • #
          gai

          I lived near their and we certainly shoveled snow off the roof when we needed to.

          Also the building codes plan for a certain snow load.

          20

          • #

            That’s what I thought. It snows a lot. This is not new. In the past, the snow falls came with 80 mph winds. This seems much less serious. It’s pretty awesome to see, yes. I love snow and blizzards. It can be a pain in the neck for transportation and so forth, but it’s one of nature’s most impressive acts. (Anyone may feel free to disagree or call me crazy! I just love snow!)

            20

  • #
    MikeInMinnesota

    Actually, this is good news. As soon as we are past the date, nothing we do can stop the inevitable doom. There’s therefore no reason to make any attempt to limit CO2. Immediately scrap all carbon taxes, energy credits and other schemes. By the Green Blob’s own admission, they’ll have no long-term effect and should therefore be eliminated.

    40

  • #
    Leigh

    My biggest bitch tdef is that when they are demonstrativly proven wrong with actual facts.
    Nobody and I mean nobody will hold them accountable.
    If a child does something he or she is chastised and shown what is correct.
    Or that was the case with myself and what I have hopefully passed on to my adult children.
    All seems well at the minute.
    One would hope the child has learned that the consequences of what they did wrong are substantially lessened if they do the right thing.

    [SNIP We ask for justice and rule of law - jo]

    Telling a lie because your paid to really only magnifys it.

    50

    • #
      TdeF

      Good point. She either lied corruptly or she really believed what she said based on her standing as a professional scientist but was completely wrong. It is hard to credit that she believed it, when the remedy she proposed obviously inadequate and absurd. However the questions stands. Was she a professional liar or completely incompetent? Remember, this is Australia’s ‘chief scientist’. Then why did Australia have to import a US scientist from Pittsburgh? Surely we had some utter incompetents of our own who might have enjoyed the post. Why didn’t it go to our own dead giant wombat specialist, Professor Dr Sir Tim Flannery, Australian of the year and Chief Climate Commissioner?

      50

  • #
    Tim

    “All this can be rectified. Just send us more money.”

    40

  • #

    So when will Australia open its first nuclear powerplant then? Plenty of resources to run it I would say!

    Greens should listen more to Lynas and Hansen.

    40

  • #
    Bob Malloy

    O/T, just.
    In a related topic, Channel 9′s today show this morning done a story on turtles survival in jeopardy due to rising sea levels. I didn’t realise turtles have only been around since the Medieval warm period, other wise they would never have survived that warming, let alone the Roman warm period! bugger.

    110

    • #
      TdeF

      Turtles are prehistoric. So are sharks and crabs and crocodiles. They have been around for hundreds of millions of years. The idea that they would suddenly become extinct with a tiny amount of warming (1C) in the 1980s and a trivial sea rise (a few cm compared to 100 metres after the end of the last ice age) is just beyond belief. The sudden destruction of the Great Barrier Reef is another common prediction which self evidently cannot be true, but even the US President pushes that incredible line with sincerity.

      People who believe in the imminent destruction of the Great Barrier Reef would also believe in Thetans and the Rapture and Golden biblical tablets from a hat. Unfortunately someone is always prepared to give credit to a scare, often for the sake of their children and their children’s children. Technology always has its doomsayers and pessimists. The great thing about being a pessimist is that you are either proven right or pleasantly surprised.

      110

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      We must invent a time machine – so we can go back to the Jurassic era and warn those reptiles not to evolve into turtles, as the world will end on Dec. 4, 2014.

      60

  • #
    old44

    La Nina has been going since 1998?

    30

  • #
    Robbo

    [PAT FRANK]
    >it has apparently never occurred to Penny Sackett to apply physical error
    >analysis to climate model outputs. Jim Hansen has never done that either
    >— at least not in public — and like Sackett he is a trained
    >astrophysicist. One wonders if that correspondence is evidence of poor
    >training within that discipline.

    Astrophysicists are well trained to start from simple, general, elegant models, and add as many extra parameters as necessary to make them consistent with the observations (rather than ditch the assumed model). They are not well trained to tell the difference between models and reality, perhaps because in most cases, their models cannot be directly tested day-by-day with lab experiments.

    But in our specific case, the over-abundance of astronomers (especially in Australia) being loudmouths for CAGW in the media has more to do with political leanings than specific training. Astronomy is the science discipline where you can be most disconnected from reality and where your career is most dependent on peer review and the personal assessment of your senior colleagues. Job applications routinely require proof of your ongoing public commitment to social justice, gender issues, equity and diversity, multicultural outreach, indigenous recognition, and all the other leftist causes. You won’t go far if you say that your political ideas are more than 1 sigma to the right of Christine Milne or (God forbid!) that you read this blog. Conversely, the stronger your public utterances about left-wing claptrap, the more credit you will get.

    I have never seen a job environment less tolerant of political diversity than Australian astronomy departments. That’s why Penny Sackett is hailed as a hero among most astronomers for her political commitment, and the fact she was dead wrong is seen as an irrelevant detail.

    100

  • #
    James (Aus.)

    I’m grateful for the reminder.

    I was going to start the Christmas present buying chore but now there’s no point; thanks to good ‘ol Penny it’s Armageddon Time.

    Best of luck, Pen. Hope the agony is not too much.

    Chief Scientist. Yep, no kidding. Chief Scientist..

    50

  • #
    Farmer Gez

    Penny Sackett’s statement reminds me of Mrs Sloecombe’s catchphrase in “Are You Being Served”.
    The world is ending five years from now “and I am unanimous in this”.

    90

  • #
    pat

    expanding glaciers are “source of controversy”, so we make up a story:

    12 Oct: LiveScience: Stephanie Pappas: Why Asia’s Glaciers Are Mysteriously Expanding, Not Melting
    Glaciers around the world are melting, retreating and even vanishing altogether. But in the mountainous Karakoram region of Asia — home to K2, the second-highest peak on Earth — the glaciers aren’t melting. If anything, some are expanding.
    Now, scientists have found an explanation for this mysterious glacial stability. While precipitation is increasing across the Himalayas, most of this moisture drops in the summer — except in Karakoram, where snow dominates the scene.
    “It’s been a source of controversy that these glaciers haven’t been changing while other glaciers in the world have,” said study researcher Sarah Kapnick, a postdoctoral researcher in atmospheric and ocean sciences at Princeton University. [Ice World: A Gallery of Awe-Inspiring Glaciers]
    “This gives a reasoning for why you can have increased snowfall in a region and have increased glaciers or stable glaciers in a warming world,” Kapnick told Live Science…
    The researchers found that a new model that simulates climate down to an area of 965 square miles (2,500 square kilometers) was able to match the observed temperature and precipitation cycles seen in the Karakoram. A model used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) to simulate what will happen if the world continues to emit greenhouse gases at current rates was unable to capture these seasonal cycles, Kapnick said.
    The reason, she said, is that the IPCC and other climate models are lower-resolution, capturing climate change over areas no finer than about 17,027 square miles (44,100 square km)…
    Because previous models overestimated the temperature of the Karakoram, they also underestimated the amount of snow in the region. This is the crux of the mysterious Karakoram anomaly, the researchers report today (Oct. 12) in the journal Nature Geoscience…
    Kapnick and her team found that the snow in Karakoram is likely to persist through at least 2100. If the climate continues to warm after that point, temperatures could eventually get high enough to wipe out the region’s wintertime snow advantage, Kapnick said. For now, however, it’s not clear when that might happen***…
    Editor’s Note: This article was updated to correct the resolution of the model used by the researchers.
    http://www.livescience.com/48256-asia-karakoram-glaciers-stability.html

    ***it’s not clear when anything CAGW might happen, Sarah.

    20

  • #
    RoHa

    Oh, good. We’re doomed, again. There seemed to be a bit of uncertainty for a while. I’m glad it’s been cleared up, and we are back on track.

    60

    • #
      Robert

      I don’t think the `again` is appropriate. Apparently, per these doom and gloom catastrafarians we have always been doomed. They are just using the shotgun method of determining why, they may even toss out some reason that actually has some validity some day. In the world of diagnostics and repair this is where you throw enough parts at it and eventually you should find the one that was bad. You don’t need to actually understand the device or the cause of the problem that way. Apparently the world of climate “science” has adopted the same technique.

      20

  • #
    Renato Alessio

    For the Chief Scientist of Australia to make such a public pronouncement, one would have expected her to have had a scientific source for her claim. She should have been asked then what that source was, and rightly she should be asked now.

    I don’t recollect the IPCC saying what she said. So what was here source?
    A minor paper that she has put ahead of all other papers and the so-called scientific consensus?
    Or was it a WWF or Greenpeace blurb that she repeated?

    Regards.

    90

  • #
    michael hart

    And will the seas rise up unto the highest mountain?

    Or will there be time for a day out surfing at the beach first?

    40

  • #
    handjive

    Harvard Professor
    Spokesman for the IPCC Lima CoP 20, 2014
    Michael Wadleigh: Solutions against climate change exist since the 1900s

    Michael Wadleigh, Spokesman for the IPCC, encourages us to take action on climate change by telling us how easy it should be to solve the problem, since many scientific inventions have been available for 114 years.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDtMb76Q0qo
    (0.57 secs)
    . . .
    Darn.
    You would think the IPCC climastrologers would have seen this date looming and postponed Lima Cop20.

    20

  • #
    Bevan

    Has anyone read the definition on page 946, Annex 1, IPCC AR4? It reads:
    Global surface temperature The global surface temperature is an estimate of the global mean surface air temperature. However, for changes over time, only anomalies, as departures from a climatology, are used, most commonly based on the area-weighted global average of the sea surface temperature anomaly and land surface air temperature anomaly.

    Obviously with the appropriate selection of anomalies,area-weighting and estimation, the good professor will be right as the IPCC can get any number they wish from that definition.

    40

  • #
    Dave N

    On Friday, you should have a widget on your site, counting the “Days Past Sackett’s Deadline To Save The Earth”

    60

  • #
    pat

    ???NYT uses the generic “scientists” to tell us the world will become “unpleasant” & could even become “uninhabitable for humans” – such a big call requires the “scientists” be named – surely!

    30 Nov: NYT: Coral Davenport: Optimism Faces Grave Realities at Climate Talks
    Even with a deal to stop the current rate of greenhouse gas emissions, scientists (???) warn, the world will become increasingly unpleasant. Without a deal, they say, the world could eventually become uninhabitable for humans…
    A November report by the United Nations Environment Program concluded that in order to avoid the 3.6 degree increase, global emissions must peak within the next 10 years, going down to half of current levels by midcentury.
    But the deal being drafted in Lima will not even be enacted until 2020…
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/01/world/climate-talks.html?_r=0

    1 Dec: Guardian: John Vidal: Will Lima climate talks pave way for a binding treaty in Paris in 2015?
    Failure will condemn developing countries to unchecked climate change for another generation, and the poorest countries will be worst hit
    The result of failure would be that developing countries are condemned to unchecked climate change for another generation, and the UN process which relies on consensus to get results is fatally undermined…
    Many rich countries now want to sign up to a weak agreement, one with pledges to achieve the targets but no legally-binding requirement…
    The Umbrella Group of countries, which includes the US, Australia, New Zealand, Russia, Ukraine and Japan, are all pushing this line of minimal legal requirement…
    Some of the major emerging economies like Korea, Mexico and Brazil and are now hiding behind the poorer developing countries and are not willing to take on substantial emission reduction targets…
    ***But if the rich and the big emitters do not move, then the result will be worldwide disappointment and cynicism about the UN process…
    Developing countries last month publicly welcomed the $9.7bn pledged for the GCF, but were in fact bitterly disappointed that it was so little. The money – no more than City of London financial workers are paid as bonuses each year – is to cover 2015-2020 and is so far from what is considered necessary as to be laughable…
    If commitments are made to provide climate finance, poor countries could achieve spectacular success in developing green economies, says Oxfam…
    Separately, Oxfam has calculated that the US should be responsible for providing 56% of financial flows to shift the world on to a low-carbon path during the first commitment period of the new agreement, with 22% coming from the EU and 10% from Japan…
    http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/dec/01/will-lima-climate-talks-pave-way-for-a-binding-treaty-in-paris-in-2015

    ***there will be relief worldwide that the scam is nearly over, John

    30

  • #
    pat

    1 Dec: Irish Times: Frank McDonald: Climate change warnings precede negotiations in Lima
    Environmentalists and poorer countries insist any deal must be binding and fair
    The two-week UN climate conference in Lima is the 20th to be held since 1995 and follows publication by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change of its Fifth Assessment Report, which said greenhouse-gas emissions needed to fall to zero by 2100…
    Deal ‘an empty shell’
    But Dipti Bhatnagar, climate justice co-ordinator of Friends of the Earth International, was pessimistic. “Looking at the texts that our governments are negotiating in Lima, the climate deal that they plan to reach next year in Paris could turn out to be, at best, an empty shell,” he said.
    Hopes that the Paris conference would deliver an agreement strong enough to achieve the two-degree target are already being dampened, even by UN insiders, who have said it’s unrealistic to expect that whatever is agreed will be sufficient in itself to put the world on a safer path…
    UN climate chief Christiana Figueres has insisted, however, that Paris “does need to put us on track to two degrees” and that a 24-page ***“non-paper” circulated earlier in November by co-chairmen Arthur Runge-Metzger and Kishan Kumarsingh represents a “vision” of how it could work…
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/climate-change-warnings-precede-negotiations-in-lima-1.2020664

    ***i can’t even find the “non-paper”!

    1 Dec: Reuters: Megan Rowling: Climate change adaptation comes of age in U.N. talks: TRFN
    But at the same time, there is a quieter push underway to secure more of the limelight for efforts to adjust to the unavoidable effects of climate change. These include building more resilient infrastructure, putting in place disaster warning systems and teaching farmers to harvest rainwater.
    “We are no longer in a situation where just cutting emissions is enough. We also need to adapt to climate change where possible, and where it isn’t possible, countries need to be compensated in some way,” said Sam Smith, leader of WWF’s global climate and energy initiative…
    But there is growing confidence among experts that the tide is turning – not least because the fledgling Green Climate Fund, which aims to become the main global climate finance mechanism, plans to direct half its resources to adaptation over time…
    Saleemul Huq, director of the Bangladesh-based International Centre for Climate Change and Development, said richer countries now understand adaptation is an issue for them too, following costly weather disasters like Superstorm Sandy, which battered the United States in 2012, causing losses of $50 billion.
    “What the U.S. will have to spend to adapt will dwarf what poorer countries will have to pay,” he said. “These are mind-boggling amounts.”…
    Now there is a strong push among many developing countries and civil society groups for a global goal on adaptation in the 2015 deal…
    Liz Gallagher, climate diplomacy program leader with environmental think tank E3G, said the Lima talks should kick start a process for working out how finance will be ramped up to $100 billion a year.
    “We can’t let that $100 billion be an issue left until Paris – it will break Paris if it is … it needs to be reconciled over the coming year,” she said…
    http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/12/01/us-climatechange-lima-idINKCN0JF10Q20141201

    hmmm. if half the green climate funds are eventually to go towards adaptation, and we are told US needs “mind-boggling amounts” to adapt, does that mean the funds will mostly go to the US. just following the “logic” in the above.

    20

  • #
    thingadonta

    I think she was referring to the time-frame most public service operate under: ’5 year plans’, but somehow it got muddled in her head.

    30

  • #
    PeterS

    Western nations don’t have any chance of solving their growing debt problems, which is real so what’s the point worrying about non-existent problems like runaway global warming? We might as well spend our billions building an earth defense system against non-existent aliens. At least we’ll have some fancy weapons and generate real jobs and lots of spinoffs. People in general are such fools.

    50

    • #
      Robert

      If the government can keep people focused on imaginary problems then those people aren’t paying attention to the real problems that the government is either incapable of addressing or chooses not to address.

      70

  • #
    el gordo

    “La Nina weather pattern, now nearing an end.”

    That is totally wrong, with a cool IPO hanging around for another 20 years there will be more La Nina and an occasional El Nino. Not that it has anything to do with the CO2 buildup in the atmosphere of our spaceship.

    SACK SACKETT

    50

    • #

      sack her from what?

      05

      • #
        GI

        Gee Aye,

        Who cares…

        One, two, three, four, why are you waiting show her the door.

        Five, six, seven, eight, out of Australia that’d be great.

        Nine, ten, eleven, twelve, I can’t think what rhymes with delve…

        60

        • #
          the Griss

          I think what Gee means is “put her in a sack”.

          She actually resigned as Chief test-tube washer in 2011, iirc.

          Now at ANU, gazing at the stars, which is actually a reasonably safe place to leave her. !

          50

  • #
    Wombat

    Oh for a spot of global warming. Here in Denmark there’s a frost blanketing everything this morning (tough on people without garages for their cars). The forecast temperature for three days’ time is -5.

    60

  • #
    The Backslider

    Oh yes! In three days Trenberth’s missing heat is gonna jump out of the ocean and bite our ass!

    70

  • #
  • #

    Has anybody else noticed the recent decline in crows?

    Maybe they have read the menus.

    What can CSIRO offer in response? Recipes?

    50

  • #
    the Griss

    I wish I’d said this.. (my bolding)

    By Ken Haapala, Executive Vice President, Science and Environmental Policy Project (SEPP)

    National Energy Policy: “You can accurately judge the viability of a potential energy source by the attitude of green activists to it. If they attack it, it is viable. If they defend it, it is non-viable.”
    The preceding quote is from John Brignell, a pioneer in scientific measurement. He has long commentated on the energy policies of the United Kingdom (UK) and the European Union (EU), pointing out that politicians do not comprehend the long-term consequences of their actions, which may extend for decades. The long-term consequences of energy policies of Germany and the UK are coming to the fore. Due to increasing energy costs, viable industries are considering leaving these countries for locations that offer low costs for reliable electricity. They will take the needed jobs with them.

    Very simply, unreliable solar and wind energy cannot meet the demands of modern manufacturing, which requires uninterrupted flow of electricity to assure high quality in the product.
    Computer chips and electronic circuits are an example of such demanding products. Energy intensive industries such as chemicals, petrochemicals, aluminium and steel are also adversely affected by high-cost energy. Firms in such industries, even if headquartered in Germany, are looking elsewhere to expand. The future is not promising, regardless of the number of wind farms and solar panels subsidized by the respective governments. Increasingly, it is become obvious that politicians can no longer blame market failures for their own disastrous, market distorting policies.

    60

    • #
      the Griss

      me bad.. h/t WUWT !

      30

    • #

      Imagine their shredded reputations when it comes to light that the renewables of choice are in fact absolutely useless.

      I’m reminded of Dorrie Evans.

      “Why wasn’t I told?”

      When electricity just comes out of the hole in the wall, it seems like it’s all the same. That is until the real power source is taken away. Then there will be no power at all, no matter how many renewables there are. Nothing to reference to.

      Tony.

      80

      • #

        Tony,
        You know the drill.

        The wind is always constant at 40 kph and the sun always shines uninterrupted for 13 hours every day AND tne batteries are the “bees knees”.

        So we have nothing to worry about that 10X the sensible cost of power wont fix.

        60

      • #
        Craig Thomas

        Wind power is cheaper than coal power, which it is gradually replacing.

        The coal industry is therefore now on its knees and begging for government subsidy as it cannot compete with renewables:
        http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-11/coal-oil-and-gas-companies-receive-4-billion-dollar-in-subsidie/5881814

        As usual, it is amusing to see Tony cling to the sinking ship that is the fossil fuel industry.

        15

        • #

          Craig,

          you’re new to this aren’t you?

          Even you know that wind power can never replace coal fired power.

          It has not done so anywhere on the face of Planet Earth, and it never will.

          You have coal fired power that can supply its huge amount of power on a 24/7/365 basis.

          Wind power supplies its maximum rated minimal amounts of power for barely 7 hours a day on average, for the best case scenario for new wind plants.

          You cannot point to anywhere on Earth where a large scale coal fired power plant has closed and been replaced by wind power.

          You support wind on a political basis only, and you have obviously proved with this comment that you know nothing about electrical power generation, nor about the way it is consumed.

          You just comment here on this to stir the pot, without having the slightest clue about what you are told to say here.

          Currently, on Planet Earth, there is a Nameplate of 310GW for Wind Power, which is the equivalent of 155 Large scale coal fired power plants.

          The amount of power supplied by all that wind is currently operating at a Worldwide Capacity Factor of 18.4%, which equates to an average power delivery of four hours and 25 minutes per day.

          That same total power delivered by all that wind is delivered by 28 of those large scale coal fired power plants.

          So you have the equivalent of 155 power plants delivering the power of only 33 of those coal fired plants, but hey, who cares. Those coal fired plants deliver their maximum power all day every day, and Wind power will NEVER be able to do that.

          You believe whatever your string pullers tell you to believe.

          As for the rest of us, well, Craig, we’ll just go with the truth.

          And you wonder why we laugh at you, and your baseless clueless and inane comments.

          Tony.

          41

          • #

            That same total power delivered by all that wind is delivered by 28 of those large scale coal fired power plants.

            That figure I highlighted here of 28 should read 33, as I mentioned in the line directly below this in the above Comment.

            Tony.

            30

          • #
            the Griss

            “average power delivery of four hours and 25 minutes per day”

            Gees, a fridge would work well on that, wouldn’t it ! ;-)

            And imagine trying to do ANYTHING that actually required continuous electricity.

            I’m sure these wind and solar advocates have never done more than 3 or 4 hours work in a week, let alone a day !!

            One really good thing though… they would NEVER be able to run their climate models. :-)

            31

          • #
            Craig Thomas

            Still burbling on about the utterly irrelevant “nameplate capacity” when any competent person uses the “registered capacity”.

            Also, I find your “Worldwide Capacity Factor” interesting – does anybody competent use this imaginary number when deciding on investing in a wind farm in Australia?
            In South Australia, the capacity factor is 40%.
            Another fact that probably pains you is that South Australian wind farms are reliably exceeding their “registered capacities”.

            Oh, I almost forgot – did you just compare the nameplate capacity of coal against the capacity-factor-modified value for wind? Is that simply mathematical incompetence on your part, or something else?

            Meanwhile, the Oz government has to hand out $4billion in subsidies to the fossil fuel industry to keep it afloat. So much for a free market, apparently if you’re into fossil fuels, you have to be a socialist and live off the taxpayer’s teat.

            16

            • #
              the Griss

              You personify IGNORANCE..

              you have no understanding of anything to do with climate..

              just meaningless propaganda brain-washed blather.

              The fuel tax rebate is NOT a subsidy !!

              Learn some real facts other that the crap fed to you on trough-dweller web sites.

              31

              • #
                Craig Thomas

                I suppose you imagine your false assertions are going to be more compelling if you use an excessive amount of capital letters?

                Sadly, all you achieve is to demonstrate once again the well-known link between low levels of education and subservience to ignorant right-wing ideology.

                04

              • #
                Rod Stuart

                Griss, if this joker has been brainwashed, I’m afraid he took a very light load to the laundry.

                50

              • #
                the Griss

                Craig the barista.. make me another coffee please. :-)

                Subservience to the IPCC, the green agenda and the new world order….

                ….. mate, that’s a far-left ideology. !

                Please go and get a basic maths/science education…. fictional writing in your arts studies will only prepare you to be someone’s coffee maker, if you can even manage that.

                10

              • #
                Mark D.

                If this joker has been brainwashed, I’m afraid he took a very light load to the laundry.

                Mr. Stuart!

                Hat tip to your skills. Very good!

                20

            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              Could you define “Registered Capacity” for me, including the factors involved?

              10

              • #
                Craig Thomas

                Sure, but better if you get it from the experts. Have a read of this:
                2013_SAER_Final_Report_Full.pdf

                http://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/Planning/South-Australian-Advisory-Functions/~/media/Files/Other/planning/2013_SAER_Final_Report_Full.ashx

                02

              • #
                Craig Thomas

                (But don’t mention that report to poor old Tony or he might see their 2014 report – and it contains news that will surely break his brittle old heart)

                02

              • #
                the Griss

                Love this bit.. Shows just how well wind doesn’t work.

                “In 2012–13, imports into South Australia exceeded exports by more than four times as much (1,786 GWh imported and 381 GWh exported). Total imports represented approximately 13% of electricity consumed in South Australia, while net imports (total imports less total exports) accounted for around 10%.
                In 2012–13 combined interconnector total imports increased by 10% compared to 2011–12, total exports decreased by 22%, and net imports for the combined interconnectors increased by 24%.

                Use you limited brain CT, the facts may actually open that banal, limited mind of yours.

                21

              • #
                Craig Thomas

                Griss, read it properly and you will see that SA now imports power rather than using gas, because gas prices have risen so much as a direct result of the government’s utterly stupid decision to tie our gas prices to international markets.

                I *do* find it most amusing that you once again choose to expose the soft underbelly of your ignorance to the cruel shafts of your pitying onlookers, though. Never mind.

                13

              • #
                the Griss

                You do realise just how tiny and insignificant SA is in the electrical requirement stakes, don’t you.

                No, probably not… the thought process would be way to much for you. !

                Again. Are you connected to the grid?
                If you are, you are TOTALLY reliant on coal or gas fired fossil fuel electricity, because the grid cannot function without that good solid base-load supply.

                Disconnect, or forever be a childish hypocrite like so many other rabid left-wig socialists.

                21

              • #
                the Griss

                “SA now imports power rather than using gas”

                Oh dear.. Imports it from where…..

                Victoria, of course.. Brown Coal. ! :-)

                You seriously are hopeless and meaningless, Craig.

                11

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                Thank you for the reference to the SAER Final Report. It makes for interesting reading.

                At comment #49.2.2.1.3, you said, “Still burbling on about the utterly irrelevant “nameplate capacity” when any competent person uses the “registered capacity”. It was that comment, which prompted me to ask for the reference.

                Having read the definitions, I find that Registered Capacity is defined thus: “A generating system’s registered capacity is the nominal MW capacity (my emphasis) registered with AEMO. Any person who owns, controls, or operates a generating system connected to a transmission or distribution network must register as a generator. Registered capacity may differ from nameplate capacity.

                That seems reasonable, because nameplate capacity is an expression of the theoretical maximum output under full load. However, when we look for a definition of “Nominal Capacity”, as being a standard that is somewhat more pragmatic, we find that there isn’t one, at least not that I can see.

                This seems rather odd; to eschew a standard (and defined) engineering term (albeit not a particularly useful one); only to replace it with a new term that has no definition other than what the electricity generator thinks it might be.

                I would be interested to know why you consider Registered Capacity to be a more meaningful statement of electrical energy output than Nameplate Capacity. I am obviously missing something.

                20

              • #

                Rereke,

                It’s a ploy used to hide an inconvenient truth.

                Only units which are actually generating have to be registered, and it only applies to wind power for one reason.

                It’s used to hide the fact that individual wind tower generators are no longer generating power, in other words, nothing from them.

                So, note where it says that the registered capacity for wind in South Australia is 1203MW.

                The actual (constructed) Nameplate Capacity for Wind in South Australia is 1477MW.

                So, that means that there is 274MW of wind power which is NOT actually generating power at all, and at an average of 2.5MW per nacelle, that means that there are 110 of those towers which are useless, standing monuments to towering stupidity, not generating one watt of power.

                That’s 19% of all South Australian wind power not contributing any power, stationary, stopped, never to turn again, never to give one watt of power again.

                274MW.

                More coming on the weekend.

                Tony.

                20

              • #
                the Griss

                Gees Tony, no wonder that have to keep increasing the brown-coal electricity they have to import, at a high cost, from Victoria. :-)

                The Victorians are probably having a good old chuckle :-)

                00

            • #
              Mark D.

              the utterly irrelevant “nameplate capacity”

              Utterly irrelevant?

              Nameplate capacity is the number registered with authorities for classifying the power output of a power station usually expressed in megawatts (MW).[11]

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nameplate_capacity

              Huh, imagine that Craig is utterly wrong again. Wildly making things up as he goes……..

              10

        • #
          the Griss

          Craig, wrong tablets today ?

          Too much red cordial for your child-mind to cope with ?

          You really should look into basic taxation laws.

          The fuel tax rebate is NOT a subsidy.

          Oh are you connected to the electricity grid, child-mind?

          Because if you are, you are TOTALLY reliant on coal fired power.

          41

        • #
          the Griss

          And ODI, seriously

          Their mission statement.

          “Our mission is to inspire and inform policy and practice which lead to the reduction of poverty, the alleviation of suffering and the achievement of sustainable livelihoods in developing countries.”

          Now if they had ANY nouse, they would be backing the developement of chep, solid, reliable elctricity, because as the developed world has shown, it is cheap, solid, reliable elctricity that MOST CONTRIBUTES to the reduction of poverty, the alleviation of suffering and the acheivement of sustainable developement.

          Wind and solar CANNOT provide cheap, solid, reliable electricity.

          Not now, and probably NEVER

          31

        • #

          Craig—My rule for listening to anyone talk about wind energy: You must have lived in an area devoid of power lines and fossil fuels for at least 5 years, using only wind and solar. NO backup generators. IF you can do that, then another 5 years in a town with no power other than wind and solar. You cannot get supplies from outside the town because that requires you benefit from fossil fuels. You must live 100% off the grid and not in society, much like the Amish in the US. And you have to do it large scale for another five years—at least a city of a million, before you foist the mess on everyone. Of course, you can’t do that and you won’t even try. Wind and solar are what third world countries have—along with poverty, starvation, etc. So, get back to me when you have the goods.

          30

          • #
            Craig Thomas

            Wind power is cheaper than coal. Coal is right now being displaced by clean energy.

            This isn’t my opinion, it is a fact that the International Energy Agency has documented.

            All you are proving is that you lack the imagination to incorporate the reality of change in your worldview.

            02

            • #
              the Griss

              RUBBISH. !

              If that is so, then let’s take away the REAL and MASSIVE subsidies, which are all that allows wind turbines to even be built. !!

              Also, let’s NOT allow the use of anything but wind power in their production.

              Easy way of making sure no more of the ugly, environment destroying monstrosities ever get built.

              You CANNOT build anything with wind power.

              It is a child’s toy, a populist idiot’s fad.

              20

              • #
                Craig Thomas

                Griss has no idea what it is talking about, as usual, luckily the IEA happens to have a clue:

                http://www.iea.org/media/freepublications/technologyroadmaps/HELECoal_pic1-600×422.png

                See? Coal is on the way out, replaced by cheaper power.

                01

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                I think you might have referenced the wrong graphic – the one you quote only provides projections.

                10

              • #
                Craig Thomas

                What are you saying? That the IEA has no idea what it is talking about? And a pair of random wackos on a notorious slow-traffic kook-blog know better?
                And I thought you were a sceptic, Rereke….oh well…

                01

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                Oh, I have full confidence in the IEA. I contract to them from time to time.

                But that particular graphic you referenced is entitled, “Projected Capacity of Coal-fired Power Generation to 2050″. The portion of the graphic prior to 2014 actually shows an increase in coal-fired generation with approximately the same rate of change as that the following projected decrease. So it actually shows coal-fired generation has been on the increase to date, and has not been declining over the last decade or so, and you have claimed.

                That was why I assumed you had referenced the wrong graphic.

                10

              • #
                Craig Thomas

                It shows nothing of the sort.

                Your claim that it shows 2014 is false. Maybe you are delusional?
                [Please stop resorting to ad hominem comments in what should be a polite discussion -Fly]

                01

              • #
                Craig Thomas

                I’m also concerned about where you get this “decade or so” from. Delusion?

                My faith in the IEA would now be reduced, were I to imagine for even one second that your “contract to them” referred to anything more important than carrying the “SLOW” sign while they fix a buried power line.

                01

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                Craig,

                Strictly speaking, the graphic does not show 2014, so I concede that point. It does, however show a the accumulative figures for a point half way between 2010, and 2020. I think that it is reasonable to assume that point to represent 2015, or 2014 near enough.

                Also the base data is as at 2011, only three or four years ago, so we can assume that the projections are reasonably accurate, as of that date.

                I have full confidence in the IEA figures, because they are not a political organisation. It is in the interpretation of their publications that the politics intrude.

                And to correct your misconception, the IEA do not get involved in the physical maintenance of power networks. I had hoped you would know that, since you are basing your arguments on their material.

                10

              • #
                the Griss

                Replaced by cheaper power.. GAS, !! :-)

                And Nuclear.

                Wind and solar will only ever have a tiny niche market..
                because that’s all they are capable of.

                Meanwhile China, India, Germany, are building coal-fired power stations hand over foot, and soon several South African countries will be building nice new coal or gas fired power stations, because it is the ONLY power that is reliable, cheap and easy to implement.

                Plenty of life-giving CO2 being released from accidental sequestration for many hundreds of years to come. :-)

                30

              • #
                Craig Thomas

                I concede the point. (The misonception). It was a cheap attempt at humour, as per this site’s stated policy of “poking gentle fun at people”.

                Congratulations to you for keeping it together, unlike the ALL-CAPS nutters you usually have to share this space with.

                02

              • #
                the Griss

                “poking gentle fun at people.”

                Oh sorry, you came here with your childish ranting clown act.. and expect us not to laugh ?

                Please, please.. don’t start crying about it. that would be so sad. ! ;-)

                00

              • #
                the Griss

                Hey, speaking of the IEA, here’s a nice graphic.

                Can anyone see wind and solar even listed?

                I guess the bars would have been too thin to see, buried somewhere in “other” :-)

                10

              • #
                the Griss

                Look at ALL that lovely fossil fuel: oil, coal, gas, peat.

                Then the other two RELIABLE supplies: Nuclear and Hydro.

                Anyways.. PLENTY of lovely fossil fuel CO2 being liberated to the atmosphere for plants to use.

                Well done Europe.. Keep up the good work !! :-)

                10

              • #
                Craig Thomas

                Good one Griss, maybe you could post a link to an even more out-of-date graphic to make your point even clearer?

                02

              • #
                the Griss

                Oh, it was from the IEA’s home page.

                Are you saying they are out of date ?

                Oh dear, I hope your feet are tasty. !!

                10

            • #
              Graeme No.3

              You are confusing selling price with cost.
              When the wind blows the wind farm operators dump electricity onto the grid at the then current price or less. Since they always have priority this means that some conventional source has to shut down. Usually this is the more expensive one e.g. gas, not the cheapest which is coal.

              The wind farm operators don’t care what price they get as they either receive a guaranteed amount from a levy on the consumer (Germany, Ontario, Denmark) or by bumping up the price of conventional outputs and sharing that increase among the wind farms (UK).

              Far from coal being driven out its use is increasing. Nor are modern coal fired stations shutting down. Prove me wrong by listing 2 (or more) coal fired stations less than 35 years old, anywhere in the World, that have shut down because of wind energy. Wind drives out the more expensive but lower emissions types (CCGT, pumped storage etc.) as in Germany where more wind is resulting in more coal fired power stations and higher emissions.

              20

            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              Wind may be cheaper than coal, but it is nowhere near as reliable.

              I would certainly not want to be on a dialysis machine, or a respirator, that relied solely on wind and/or solar power.

              Also, the production of food in the developed world, uses commercial ovens, that are designed to run twenty-four hours a day. No sunlight + no wind = no breakfast.

              It is the same with hospitals. Not many people realise the amount of power required to run a hospital twenty-four hours a day. Hospitals usually have their own substation, and the large ones have two or more, fed from different primary grids. Imagine being a surgeon with an open thorax in front of you, when the lights went out. I think I would rather be the patient.

              00

        • #
          Heywood

          “The report also classifies the Federal Government’s fuel rebate program for resources companies as a subsidy.”

          So the figure is credible then?

          The agriculture industry also receives this ‘subsidy’. Time to cut that too?

          [Snip! - keep it polite -Fly]

          20

  • #

    the Griss, yep, when your mental model of reality and reality itself aren’t in reasonable agreement you get into trouble.

    As for Sackett et al – is there any reason not to fire them all, demolish the institution and salt the earth? These people are disgusting parasites.

    60

  • #
    mmxx

    A penny for Prof Sackett’s thoughts about her scenario forecasting model that confirms the end game of human life on earth.

    Will it be some or all of these?

    Massive sea-level rise of tsunamic proportions; or

    Micro-wave blasts of solar irradiance that fry all living things; or

    Individual strangulation by unbridled proliferation of creeper vines and other human-threatening greens (plants or, perhaps even activists); or

    Agonising suffocation when global atmospheric CO2 levels reach 420 ppm (lucky survivors could be the US submariners and space station scientists who safely tolerate environmental air that contains CO2 of up to 5000 ppm); or

    Plague, pestilence, drought, floods, heat-waves, bushfires topped off by freezing polar vortices; or

    Post alarmism stress syndrome.

    50

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      mmxx:
      possibly it was the sun in danger of being eaten by an enormous mutant star-goat.

      See Douglas Adams, Hitchhiker’s Guide…Planet Golgafrincham

      Curious that the BBC broadcast it; I doubt they would these days.

      30

    • #
      Craig Thomas

      “her scenario forecasting model that confirms the end game of human life on earth”

      mmxx, please you provide a link to this Sackett scenario you describe.

      Alternatively, you could apologise for making it up, and perhaps the moderator could explain why s/he tolerates comments that not only fail to address the science, but appear to contain untruths.

      12

      • #

        “The professor said even if all the world stopped producing carbon dioxide immediately, temperature increases of 1.3C were unavoidable.
        If the earth’s temperature rose 2C, she warned, there would be risks that were “difficult and dangerous”.”
        “THE planet has just five years to avoid disastrous global warming, says the Federal Government’s chief scientist.”

        http://www.heraldsun.com.au/archive/news/weve-got-5-years-to-save-world-says-australias-chief-scientist-professor-penny-sackett/story-e6frf7l6-1225806754392

        There are others. Penny Sackett clearly is in the alarmist’s camp.

        30

        • #
          Craig Thomas

          So, no “end game of human life on earth”, Sheri?

          I did think that was an unhelpful invention, glad to have you confirm that for me.

          03

          • #

            Agreed, she did not use the actual words “end game of human life on earth”. She used “difficult and dangerous”, which can be interpreted as whatever one choses. Perhaps you could link to the story where she corrected all of the journalists for their improper use of “to save the planet”. I was unable to find such a story. Miss Penny apparently had not problem with allowing journalists to say the planet would not be saved (i.e., it’s dying, self-destructing, etc) if we did not act, so the use of “end game of life on earth” is a logical conclusion that Miss Penny appears to have let stand. If she let it stand, then it’s not dishonest to say she was referring to the death of the planet, and, of course, human life unless we escaped to another galaxy. I will be eagerly awaiting your links to her clear and concise denial of the statement.

            10

            • #
              Craig Thomas

              she used “difficult and dangerous”, which can be interpreted as whatever one choses.

              No it can’t.
              “Difficult and dangerous” means difficult and dangerous.

              You don’t have a licence to simply make things up.

              01

              • #
                Robert

                But apparently you do. So why is it that when you do them you don’t call yourself out for the very things you call others out for? What is difficult and dangerous to one person may not be to another person. So it can be open to interpretation just as she said. Since the media commonly interprets what was actually said the way they see fit maybe you should go have a talk with them about it.

                00

              • #
                the Griss

                Craig, you have shown just how “difficult and dangerous” it is for you to attempt anything to do with logic and science.

                For others, those of the many here with science and engineering degrees (as opposed to partial Arts degrees), logic and science are actually pretty easy.

                If only you had spent more time learning basic maths and science in year 7 and 8…

                … it is that lack of basic knowledge and understanding of reality that makes it so difficult and dangerous for you…

                …. but makes it hilarious for us to watch. :-)

                00

  • #
    pat

    we shouldn’t leave out good old Andrew Sims, who has been counting down our final 100 months at the Guardian:

    3 Nov: Guardian: Andrew Sims: Like Daedalus, we should use our judgment to thrive within limits
    Let’s kick the carbon habit and shift to benign sources before the civilisation wrecks its own life support systems
    25 months and counting
    Restless Rhodes-like ambitions hypnotise the media while extraordinary Daedalus like achievements go largely unregarded.
    While the climate campaign 10:10 has slipped from the headlines, quietly it has been encouraging an energy revolution. The 10:10 campaign #ItsHappening does what it says on the hashtag. From solar schools to ‘floating’ bike roundabouts, they highlight success stories of cutting carbon use…
    Given the lack of action elsewhere in the world, the pressure was great to welcome an EU target of cutting emissions 40% (even if there was no meaningful plan to make it happen)… http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/nov/03/we-have-one-chance-to-kick-the-carbon-habit

    the CAGW-crowd are just new-age End-Timers.

    30

  • #
    Old Dave of Burundi

    Gee no Christmas…How sad.

    Good part is no global warming, solar or wind power propaganda thereafter, err, if it happens.

    40

  • #
    pat

    *** why such an old pic? btw how many deceptions in this particular piece, running a regular MSM meme that only Republicans deny CAGW and many prominent Republicans are becoming believers, so get on board:

    1 Dec: Bloomberg: George Shultz Defies GOP in Embrace of Climate Adaptation
    By Alex Nussbaum, Mark Chediak and Zain Shauk
    ***PHOTO CAPTION: Former U.S. Secretary of State George Schultz attends a birthday celebration held in honor of Ronald Reagan at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library on Feb. 6, 2011 in Simi Valley, California.
    As Ronald Reagan’s secretary of state, George Shultz faced off against Muammar Qaddafi, the Soviet Union and Chinese communists.
    His latest cause, though, is one few fellow Republicans support: fighting climate change…
    Living a life powered “on sunshine,” Shultz, at 93, has a message for the doubters who dominate his own party: “The potential results are catastrophic,” he said in an interview. “So let’s take out an insurance policy.” …
    Across the U.S., a series of weather anomalies — from a record West Coast drought to Midwest flooding and Superstorm Sandy — are gradually helping to shift public opinion on climate change, according to a string of recent polls. Two in three Americans now believe global warming is real, according to an October survey of 1,275 people by Yale and George Mason universities. That’s up from 57 percent in January 2010…
    “There’s a great middle in this country that basically agrees that something needs to be done,” said James Brainard, the Republican mayor of Carmel, Indiana, who served on a climate preparedness task force organized by Obama. “They can see that weather patterns are changing drastically.” …
    Activists have seized on severe weather and other geographic changes to try to shape public opinion in the U.S., the world’s biggest source of carbon emissions per capita…
    Shultz, now a distinguished fellow at Stanford University, said the reality was driven home for him during a visit to the California campus by Gary Roughead, the U.S. Navy’s retired chief of naval operations. Roughead shared a time-lapse video of the Arctic ice cap shrinking over the last quarter-century.
    “That certainly was an eye-opener,” Shultz said in an interview last week in San Francisco, where he spoke at an energy conference. The video showed what Shultz called “new oceans” being unlocked from the ice…
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-01/reagan-statesman-s-sunshine-power-hint-of-thaw-in-climate-debate.html

    Bloomberg mentions Shultz’s Stanford connection, but not his connection to carbon trading, power-plant & wind-farm owning JP Morgan Chase:

    JP Morgan Chase International Council
    Hon. George P. Shultz. Chairman of the Council
    ALSO INCLUDES:
    Riley P. Bechtel, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Bechtel Group, Inc
    Tony Blair, Former U.K. Prime Minister
    Abdallah S. Jum’ah, President and Chief Executive Officer, Saudi Arabian Oil Company
    Hon. Henry A. Kissinger. Chairman, Kissinger Associates Inc
    David J. O’Reilly, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Chevron Corporation
    Ernesto Zedillo, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization
    BOTTOM OF LISTS, PAGE 6
    ***This annual report is printed on paper made from well-managed forests and other controlled sources.
    The paper is independently certified by SmartWood, a program of the Rainforest Alliance, to the Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) standards. The paper contains 20% post-consumer waste (PCW) recycled fibers.
    FSC is an independent nonprofit organization devoted to encouraging responsible management of the world’s forests. FSC sets high standards to ensure forestry is practiced in an environmentally responsible, socially beneficial and economically viable way.
    http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/ONE/0x0x184766/938df088-bbd9-4dca-97ea-479db9cce39f/2007AR_CorpData_ShareholderInfo.pdf

    30

  • #
    pat

    US power plants only:

    TABLE-JPMorgan’s U.S. power plants and energy trading deals
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/25/jpmorgan-ferc-idUSL1N0FV0KF20130725

    20

  • #
    Krudd Gillard of the Commondebt of Australia

    Get off the public purse, Sackett, you [SNIP] bludger.

    —-
    Tone it down a bit Krudd
    . I think Sackett really believes what she is saying. We all cry though, for the paucity of her reasoning — not much of a scientist – Jo.

    40

  • #
    observa

    The bludgers are everywhere! From The Australian today (Dec 1st) spot the pea and thimble trick from the BOM and their ‘climate monitoring manager’-

    “AUSTRALIA has had its hottest spring and its hottest November on record.

    BUREAU of Meteorology climate monitoring manager Karl Braganza says 2014 was the latest in a long line of hot springs in the past decade.

    The previous record was set only last year, he said.
    “Really, it was only 2010 that had a cool spring in the past 10 years or so. Nine out of the warmest springs on record have occurred since 2002,” Dr Braganza told AAP.
    Australia’s average seasonal temperature is derived by averaging the temperature data from weather stations, where records go back to 1910.
    The figure is then compared with the long-term average temperature, which measures the period from 1961 to 1990.
    The average spring 2014 temperature of 24.17C exceeded the mean by 1.67C, Dr Braganza said.”

    30

    • #

      Well, “shit a brick” – we are all doomed.

      10

      • #
        Mark D.

        That word got through moderation?

        10

        • #

          Apparently. You will note my comment further down was edited. I do not swear and the terms I used were far less offensive than others used. I could defend my language, both empirically and logically. Yet, my comment hit moderation. Jo has every right to edit whatever she choses, but since the moderation here makes little or no sense, it’s going to be difficult to comment or decide what is and is not appropriate. Good luck with it.

          10

        • #

          Mark: I’m replying here because I have an email notification and your comment is not showing up yet (stuck in moderation, perhaps). As I noted in an additional comment below, I chose my words based on empirically looking through the comments and choosing my words accordingly. I don’t have the time nor the inclination to try and figure out what is allowed and what is not. While many people are not bothered by the inconsistancy of the process, it is difficult enough dealing with global warming advocates without having to deal with the skeptics as well. Perhaps it is “thin-skinned”, but if one cannot participate in a skeptic blog based on reason and evidence, then it seems pointless. I left before because the skeptics and advocates looked so much alike I couldn’t tell them apart.

          All I have are my words—if they are not understood or welcome, then I am wasting my time. It’s better to go elsewhere. As stated when I came back, I have very limited time and I go where my time is best spent. I cannot see that my time here is worth the hassle in light of the moderation mess.

          00

  • #
    pat

    observa -

    it’s all nicely timed for Lima…

    Australia has hottest spring on record as temperatures soar
    BBC News – ‎2 hours ago‎

    Australia sweats over extreme hot weather
    BBC News – ‎14 hours ago‎

    UN climate talks begin as global temperatures break records
    BBC News-2 minutes ago

    NOAA: 2014 is shaping up as hottest year on record
    CNN – ‎Nov 30, 2014‎

    40

    • #
      Eddie

      It’s amazing how the climate can be stage managed like that, like the air conditioning for a Congressional hearing.

      40

    • #

      it’s all nicely timed for Lima…

      Oh, you can bet that the Gore Effect will pop up starting December 9th. Average temp for December is 71. Average high is 76.

      I have to wonder if a bunch of US media outlets will start yammering about the dry conditions in Lima, which has an average of 3 rain days in December.

      20

  • #
    Dariusz

    Looks like astronomy is going back to its roots, astrology.

    40

  • #
    Dariusz

    May be John the Baptist principle should re-introduced? You can a only be wrong once before they take you to Alice in wonderland.

    20

    • #
      Craig Thomas

      Should you start with John McLean, not-PhD?

      After all, nobody has ever been wronger than he was.

      Then you can move on to Jo’s good buddy David Archibald, whose 1.5 (or was it 2.2?) degrees of cooling has for some bizarre reason failed to eventuate?

      Or maybe Richard “so embarrassing” Lindzen, whose cooling prediction has also utterly failed to materialise?

      On the other hand, perhaps we should just call the ASIO hotline and report a looney making threats?

      02

  • #
    dp

    The greatest climate change caused calamity ever to strike mankind was the end of the last glaciation. The humans of the time, with no education, no written language, and no manufacturing capability not only survived, their successive generations went on to land on the moon and invent Facebook. Unrelated to the climate, the Neanderthals did not succeed as a subspecies, but their DNA still floats around the gene pool of homo sapiens.

    Why then is it suggested that modern humans are too daft to survive a poorly supported projection of climate change that in no way achieves the scale of change that inaugurated the current epoch? I submit it is because we as a species are too daft to recognize the model failures and are ignorant of the reason those failed models remain the gold standard of climate catastrophe projection. We are also too daft to realize the projected catastrophe exists only when using modeled artificial data. We are too daft to realize that unadjusted data predicts no catastrophe. Obviously any population as daft as we when presented unadjusted facts is too daft to not protect at all costs from imagined disaster. Coincidentally, the same people that decide who is and who is not daft will run the show for a fee, and of course there is no end game. Where there are sheep there will be shepherds – skeptics need not apply.

    30

  • #

    dp… let me rephrase your fist paragraph and the second one becomes the non-sequitur that it is. In the first paragraph you are not describing a calamity. It was a boon and you describe it as such.

    01

    • #
      dp

      I am using the IPCC world view of global warming. Had they existed then they would not see the upcoming climate change as a boon. It would have been a disaster of flooding coastlines, plants racing north to stay ahead of the mid-latitude heat that was on the way, disastrous flooding from collapsing glacial dams and attendant scouring of already stressed top soil, loss of habitat for ice world fauna, and so on. It was a time of radical change, hard hitting and sudden. The result has been that rarest of times – a climate optimum which the IPCC of today claims is being lost with attendant flooding of coastlines, loss of habitat, plants racing north…, well, you get it. Boon or not does not enter the equation. You see, they’re immune to the possibility the world will adjust as it always has. If that is a non-sequitur then give me more.

      30

  • #
    prison

    I’ve read through the comments on here. Many of them read like a foreign language to me. Maybe it is our age gap? (i’m 39). There are many copy-paste comments on here and no offense but so many comments which make me worry about peoples mental health.

    Part of me wants to accept the science, the UN and the IPCC given that it is the biggest collection of scientific minds ever assembled, but I also want to understand the mindset of those who reject this.

    There appears to be an almost fanatical need to latch onto any shred of evidence which counters the consensus, such us that statement predicting the end of life as we know it within 5 years by one person…..who was clearly exaggerating to try and promote action.

    Anyway i think i’ll start posting on here instead of the ABC and just try to figure out the mindset of a largely skeptical group of people. (and probably get crucified)

    ——
    All Jo expects from her contributers is that they remain polite, discuss the science, and try to understand the other persons point of view. I and the other moderators will only step in if people do not abide by those rules. Oh, and one other thing: We tend to have fun, and poke fun at each other, and the more bombastic statements from the IPCC side. -Fly

    21

    • #

      prison, thanks for dropping by. You are most welcome. There is no mindset, commenters disagree often and that’s good. we like debate.

      Don’t mistake deep feeling in comments as latching on to “shreds” of evidence. (If you thought this post was about evidence, we are going to need a long discussion. I hope you can stick around.) After 1700 posts, the evidence and the reasons for passion have been discussed over and over. If it sounds foreign, its because you missed the first 800,000 words. You have arrived late to this party.

      BTW: The IPCC is not the “biggest” collection of scientific minds. There were only 62 involved in Chapter 9 of AR4 (which was the one that mattered). We can name 31,000 who disagree. Whatever. The numbers are irrelevant to the scientific truth.

      If you write with respect and honesty, you’ll get that back. Dare I suggest that using words like “fanatical”, “mindset”, and suggesting readers are either very old or very young does not sound like a mind that is especially open, nor respectful? No offense. ;- ) Inflammatory words will get inflammatory responses. A civil, genuine discussion with real curiosity is truly rare. Can you do it?

      I’ll ask commenters to be especially polite and patient if you can.

      71

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Well, if you are going to refer to the UN as the biggest collection of scientific minds ever assembled, you will cop heaps of derision.
      The claim that sceptics are all elderly, right wing and not quite right in the head is standard groupthink in ABC circles. It isn’t true, there are younger ones and even self proclaimed socialists. Many it is true are elderly, but a lot have qualified in the ‘hard sciences’ and are appalled by the quality, or lack thereof, in “The Science”. And being older, and hopefully wiser, most have a well developed ability to detect bullsh*t. Try to avoid that and you will be welcome to put your views. Unlike the believers sites where heretical views are censored, sceptical blogs are much freer.

      40

    • #
      Rod Stuart

      Perhaps if you were to review the list of failed predictions for which this imaginary “biggest collection of scientific minds” to which you refer is responsible you might want to rethink whether or not they deserve even a smidgeon of credibility.

      40

  • #
    Andrew McRae

    Commander Tomsky, we have only 14 hours to save the Earth.

    00

  • #
    Craig Thomas

    In other news, Joanne Nova “expert” David Archibald’s prediction of massive cooling has still not eventuated.

    Shall we airbrush our enthusiasm for Archibald right out of the picture?

    01

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      That was over the next 25 years.
      I note though that the USA and Canada are having heavy snowfalls in the last week or two and that minus 5 is predicted for the UK shortly. Doesn’t sound like warming.

      10

      • #
        Craig Thomas

        Lol. No it wasn’t. Talk about being in the Nile!

        It was over Solar Cycle 24, and the peak of that cycle is this year.

        Obviously, as pointed out by sane rational people at the time, Archibald’s nonsense was never going to happen…and it hasn’t! Amazing!

        Do you think blogs that had a hand in promoting Archibald’s witless, lunatic blathering should apologise, or not?

        00

        • #

          Rubbish. We cannot yet tell for sure if the peak of SC24 is this year. We have to wait. NASA predictions for the cycle were definitely wrong; both in amplitude and cycle length.

          Eyeballing the solar cycle sequences as presented by Archibald allowed me to hang my solar cycle dartboard in just about the right place.

          00

          • #
            Craig Thomas

            Ah, so Archibald’s prediction that Solar Cycle 24 would peak this year was wrong?

            And the 1.5degrees (or 2.2, I can’t figure out which he was pushing) hasn’t started yet, even though the Solar Cycle is already peaking?

            ANy day now, right?

            02

        • #
          the Griss

          The only lunatic blathering here, is YOU. !!

          00

          • #
            Craig Thomas

            Wow, awesome comeback.

            Good to see that publicly-funded education all the way to Year4 wasn’t wasted.

            02

            • #
              the Griss

              Did you manage that did you.??

              I over-estimated.

              Looks like primary school was a real issue for you.

              Go back to your pretend Arts degree, dopey !!!

              Coffee anyone?

              00

              • #
                Craig Thomas

                Have you ever actually posted anything of substance, Griss, or is childish insult all you have?

                01

              • #
                the Griss

                I need no substance to counteract your nonsense.

                Seems I hit a nerve, hey :-)

                barista, barista…. Have you made that coffee yet ?

                00

        • #
          the Griss

          Actually, if you bothered doing some research (yeah right), you would notice that the sun appears to be heading into a second peak, nothing unusual about that, and that peak will last until 2 or 3 months into next year.

          There is also a quite high amount of F10.7 flux for the relatively small sun-spot count.
          This is expected to continue for a month or two. The flux isn’t that much below the values of the maximum sun-spot era that cause the warming in the latter half of last century.

          So Cycle 24 looks like it is going to be longer and with quite a bit more heat output than was originally predicted by anyone.

          But if solar scientists predictions are correct, once it drops, it could stay down for quite a long time.

          Buy some new winter woollies !!!

          Its a pity the sun drives the climate because the raised CO2 isn’t going to help warm us up, no matter how much China et al keep pumping into the atmosphere.. !!

          20

  • #
    Craig Thomas

    Why was Sackett asked to “explain recent cooling”, when it is clearly warming:
    http://woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:2000/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:2000/trend

    What kind of an incompetent asked her that silly question?

    33

    • #

      No, Craig, it is not clearly warming. It is clearly warming only if you choose the correct statistical parameters and properly massaged data. There are literally hundreds of graphs and regression lines that can be produced to show whatever it is you want to show. That’s the cool thing about regression. Such a sweet statistic.

      Actually, someone competent in statistics and mathematics probably asked the question in an effort to ascertain if the woman understood science. It was a very good question. Too bad they did not have time to discuss it further.

      41

      • #
        Craig Thomas

        Observations show the world is warming. Denying this cannot possibly be the result of you engaging in honest appraisal of the facts.

        13

        • #
          the Griss

          Observations show that the world is doing NOTHING significant for the whole of this century.

          That is the FACT that you refuse to admit DESPITE the IPCC and many other alarmista saying so.

          Deny reality all you want. All you have otherwise is meaningless blather.

          21

          • #
            Craig Thomas

            Strangely, Griss, and this will no doubt come as a shock to you, every single scientist in the world agrees that you are entirely wrong.

            Why?

            Because scientists are not in the habit of denying actual measurements, nor do they deny reality:

            http://woodfortrees.org/plot/hadsst3gl/from:1984/plot/hadsst3gl/from:1984/trend

            Maybe book in with somebody with a couch that you can have a long friendly chat with?

            12

            • #
              Robert

              Oh good. Please provide us a list of their names then.

              EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

              We expect to see the names of every single scientist on the planet.

              The “every single scientist” crap really shows you for what you are. Just another troll.

              31

              • #
                Craig Thomas

                Not one scientist on this planet agrees with you.

                You exist in your own little bubble of angry misunderstanding, with nobody to keep you company. (Nobody who’s any good at maths, physics, and chemistry, that is).

                12

              • #
                the Griss

                So, no list of names. Nothing to back up your claim.

                Everybody laughs at a clown too. !! :-)

                “You exist in your own little bubble of angry misunderstanding, with nobody to keep you company. (Nobody who’s any good at maths, physics, and chemistry, that is).”

                Self-reflection is good for you Craig. But don’t despair in your loneliness.

                21

              • #
                Robert

                Not one scientist on this planet agrees with you.

                Prove it. You’re good at ad-homs and claims but failing miserably at proof. Since based on your comments thus far I would have to reach the conclusion that I’m better at mathematics, physics, and chemistry than you as I have studied them and have seen no indication yet that you have, your claims mean nothing.

                So now you not only haven’t been able to prove that leftists are “the best” at mathematics, chemistry, etc. you can’t prove that ALL the scientists on this planet disagree with me, you know ALL, as in every single one.

                BTW, some of us use capitals for emphasis and it is fairly common on the internet, not that you have the intelligence to grasp that. Much easier to resort to ad-homs and call us nutters isn’t it? Doesn’t require any mental effort on your part that way. Wouldn’t want you to hurt yourself.

                20

            • #
              the Griss

              oh look..

              Craig knows that 1984 was this century..

              Well done Craig !!

              Your lack of intelligence astound even me. :-)

              What happened to make you so dumb !!!?

              20

            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              Craig,

              Five-tenths of one degree over forty years? And what is the historic deicidal fluctuation extent from natural causes? And how do those two compare?

              If you want to make an alarmist point, then you really do need to present evidence that the observations cannot be a result of natural variation.

              40

            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              Craig,

              You cannot speak for, “every single scientist in the world”. For one thing, I doubt if you know who all of them are.

              Also, having made that statement, means that if we could find just one, then your position would be totally blown away.

              So, if you are going to argue, or even discuss science, then it is best to avoid the dramatic and emotive language. It does not help your cause.

              30

            • #

              Excuse me here, Craig dear, you just made a totally outlandish statement of “Not one scientist on this planet agrees with you.” Wow. [SNIP an unflattering assessment of his IQ - J]. You complain about “alarmist exaggeration” and then make a [sweeping undefendable] statement about every scientist on the planet. No one is going to take you seriously from here on out. You’ve gone way overboard. Expect to be shredded unless you apologize and tone it down immediately. It’s entirely up to you.


              [sheri, fair point, but edited slightly to take the heat out of the flames. Craig is being edited too. Lets keep the insults toned down. - Jo]

              10

              • #

                My comment was based on reading the tone of the comments above mine. Empirically, no word I used was as inflammatory as “lunatic”, I did not refer to the commenter as a low-paid worker (implying lack of intelligence), etc. I could defend my choice of terms. Yet, my comment was moderated and edited. It’s useless to try and follow any kind of rules (of which I broke none, but that apparently did not matter either) and avoid appearing “uncivil” while using language that was far less inflammatory and not profane while others merrily insult away. This was part of the reason I stopped commenting on this blog. This is the reason I will no longer comment. If standards are applied unequally and using logic to determine what is acceptable to use in a comment is not allowed, I cannot contribute to this conversation. Jo may do whatever she wishes with her blog, but I won’t be part of it.

                00

              • #
                Mark D.

                Sheri, I think that your response is a bit thin-skinned.

                I like your posts.

                I can’t imagine what goes on behind the moderator panel so I go with the flow. I’ve been snipped, I’ve lost my cool, I’ve been chastised by locals and moderators and Jo herself. Sometimes I’ve though the reaction was unfair, many times I’ve been allowed through when I probably shouldn’t have (I assume because I’m now a “regular”). Even though the moderation is a bit fickle I’m still here.

                I hope you stick around.

                10

              • #

                My reply is above at the previous comment I made as a response to you. I’n not following what is going on so it’s time to bow out before things get worse.

                00

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                Sheri,

                I’n not following what is going on so it’s time to bow out before things get worse.

                That is exactly what the likes of Craig want to have happen. They want to silence any, and all, dissent from their views — sometimes they are a team, paid, to silence dissent.

                They employ the psychology of the school playground. The loudest shouting group gets to win. And if people like that win, what sort of world would we end up in? Going back to the dark ages, and a time of superstition and brutality, would only be half of it.

                I said before, that I was pleased to see the Scientific Badger come back, and I meant it. We need rational debate, but that can only come from people such as yourself, for it will never come from the likes of Craig.

                I could have said (typed) nothing. But I wanted you to know that we like badgers, they are very pragmatic animals.

                20

              • #

                Rereke: I know that people like my comments. I’m just a very tired badger at the moment and my commenting and comprehension are falling off rapidly. I do really appreciate your comment. I will try to come back in a bit. While I would like to think Craig would be affected by my presence, it seems unlikely. He probably isn’t affected by much of anything. Let me rest up a bit and I’ll give it another run. Even badgers wear out now and then. Again, thank you for taking the time to comment.

                10

              • #
                Rod Stuart

                Sheri
                I was delighted at your return and apolgise for not making that observation earlier.
                We will all lose a good friend unless you decide to return.
                I am sure that, whatever your difficulties are with moderation, it is some sort of error in a mechanised system.
                In any event I wish you and yours all the very best for the Christmas season, and if you need a rest, by all means enjoy it.
                I am beginning to understand that we tend to get too serious about issues for which we have little control, and that it is important to enjoy all life has to offer. A scant two months ago I was very nearly on a slab in a morgue on a ship in the middle of the Pacific. Now that I have a new heart valve manufactured of pure carbon, I feel ten years younger. But I now have a far better realisation of my own mortality, and I am trying hard to enjoy life on this blue planet of ours while I have the opportunity. I sincerely hope to see those rational and logical (and civil) comments of yours in the New Year. They are uplifting and thought provoking.

                10

            • #
              gai

              Craig Thomas says (about the world warming):

              “Strangely, Griss, and this will no doubt come as a shock to you, every single scientist in the world agrees that you are entirely wrong…..”
              >>>>>>>>>>>

              Actually Craig you are entirely wrong.

              The recent pause in warming – Met Office

              UK Met Office on the pause @ judithcurry com
              by Dr. Judith Curry

              The recent pause in global surface temperature rise does not, in itself, materially alter the risks of substantial warming of the Earth by the end of this century. – UK Met Office

              Bishop Hill points to three papers released today by the Met Office on the topic of the pause:
              Paper 1: Observing changes in the climate system (PDF, 2 MB)
              Paper 2: Recent pause in global warming: What are the potential causes? (PDF, 1 MB)
              Paper 3: Implications for projections (PDF, 664 kB)

              Below are some excerpts and my comments…

              What we are seeing in this Modern Warm Period is the tail end of a rather anemic thermal pulse, just like the Eemian, the last interglacial, had just before the descent into an the Wisconsin Ice Age.

              And if you want to talk actual CLIMATE this modern Warm Period is actually rather cold.

              Temperature and precipitation history of the Arctic
              Miller et al
              Institute of Arctic and Alpine Research and Department of Geological Sciences, University of Colorado, USA et al

              …. Solar energy reached a summer maximum (9% higher than at present) ~11 ka ago and has been decreasing since then, primarily in response to the precession of the equinoxes. The extra energy elevated early Holocene summer temperatures throughout the Arctic 1-3°C above 20th century averages, enough to completely melt many small glaciers throughout the Arctic, although the Greenland Ice Sheet was only slightly smaller than at present. Early Holocene summer sea ice limits were substantially smaller than their 20th century average, and the flow of Atlantic water into the Arctic Ocean was substantially greater. As summer solar energy decreased in the second half of the Holocene, glaciers re-established or advanced, sea ice expanded

              A new approach for reconstructing glacier variability based on lake sediments recording input from more than one glacier January 2012
              Kristian Vasskoga Øyvind Paaschec, Atle Nesjea, John F. Boyled, H.J.B. Birks

              …. A multi-proxy numerical analysis demonstrates that it is possible to distinguish a glacier component in the ~ 8000-yr-long record, based on distinct changes in grain size, geochemistry, and magnetic composition…. This signal is …independently tested through a mineral magnetic provenance analysis of catchment samples. Minimum glacier input is indicated between 6700–5700 cal yr BP, probably reflecting a situation when most glaciers in the catchment had melted away, whereas the highest glacier activity [growth] is observed around 600 and 200 cal yr BP. During the local Neoglacial interval (~ 4200 cal yr BP until present), five individual periods of significantly reduced glacier extent are identified at ~ 3400, 3000–2700, 2100–2000, 1700–1500, and ~ 900 cal yr BP….

              Mid to late Holocene sea-level reconstruction of Southeast Vietnam using beachrock and beach-ridge deposits

              Abstract

              Beachrocks, beach ridge, washover and backshore deposits along the tectonically stable south-eastern Vietnamese coast document Holocene sea level changes. In combination with data from the final marine flooding phase of the incised Mekong River valley, the sea-level history of South Vietnam could be reconstructed for the last 8000 years. Connecting saltmarsh, mangrove and beachrock deposits the record covers the last phase of deglacial sea-level rise from − 5 to + 1.4 m between 8.1 to 6.4 ka. The rates of sea-level rise decreased sharply after the rapid early Holocene rise and stabilized at a rate of 4.5 mm/year between 8.0 and 6.9 ka. Southeast Vietnam beachrocks reveal that the mid-Holocene sea-level highstand slightly above + 1.4 m was reached between 6.7 and 5.0 ka, with a peak value close to + 1.5 m around 6.0 ka…..

              Ice free Arctic Ocean, an Early Holocene analogue

              …..We therefore conclude that for a period in the Early Holocene, probably for a millenium or more, the Arctic Ocean was free of sea ice at least for shorter periods in the summer……

              New insights on Arctic Quaternary climate variability from palaeo-records and numerical modelling

              …..Arctic sea ice cover was strongly reduced during most of the early Holocene and there appear to have been periods of ice free summers in the central Arctic Ocean……

              00

        • #

          No, Craig, my dearest. Only someone completely illiterate in statistics (either willfullty by blind faith in global warming or lack of education) would make a statement like “It is a fact the planet is warming”. There are few facts in statistics. There are probabilities. It is a well known FACT that statistics can give any answer you want. One of my college textbooks was “How to lie with Statistics”. Of course, since only a person who drank the koolaid would say that, I will overlook your lack of understanding. Faith is such a hard thing to overcome and worshippers of global warming are among the most faithful out there.

          40

          • #
            gai

            Oh, I loved “How to lie with Statistics”.

            It is a great book even for novices. (And yes I took Stat. to get my cert. as a Q.C. Engineer.)

            10

        • #
          Rod Stuart

          The Church of the Sacred AGW is apparently your forte, dwelling on foregone conclusions.

          10

  • #

    At what is the world going to end tomorrow?

    I need to keep my appointment book clear.

    10

    • #
      Craig Thomas

      Let me explain it to you, “Fly”: Penny Sackett did not say “the world going to end”.

      So in fact, it is Bernd’s hopeless comment that is utterly beside the point, irrelevant, and off-topic.
      [I can't recall that anybody said it. You were rude, and got moderated, simple. Bernd has been a commentator here for a long time. He is never rude, and can say what he likes, end of story -Fly]

      12

      • #
        Robert

        You know if you spend some time getting an education you would be able to get a better job so you could afford a color camera like the rest of us.

        Bernd’s comment is good humour, something you obviously don’t understand. Doesn’t matter that Sackett didn’t specifically say “the world is going to end” she didn’t have to, the implications of what she did say left her wide open to ridicule.

        The time has arrived, she was wrong, get over it.

        30

        • #
          the Griss

          Come one Robert, you know these far left-wings socialist totalitarians have NO sense of humour…

          …although…. they did elect Milne, SHY, Brandt etc to parliament.

          There’s three very dopey clown acts, that’s for sure. :-)

          Down the bottom of the barrel with with Lambie and her PUP.

          Problem is, I think they were being serious when they did it. ! ## !

          20

        • #
          Mark D.

          Robert, he can’t “get over it”. He’s been been “conditioned” you know.

          20

  • #

    Have you noticed this ploy now from the ‘drive bys’?

    They carpet bomb an old Thread with really short comments, and heaps of them, most of them requiring detailed responses.

    When there is no response, they think they have won, and that the person they take aim at has slunk off in silence, somewhat chastened at having been perhaps embarrassed at being caught out.

    On the contrary.

    There was a specific comment at 49.2.2.1.2 from this person, and Craig, I would sincerely like to thank you for bringing this to my attention.

    Chastened! Nyuk nyuk nyuk, as Curly was wont to say.

    This latest report specifically highlights something done by a Government wanting to make a point, and then having a report written to accentuate that point. Hey, why release a report if you don’t already know what it’s going to say.

    The trouble with that is that somewhere out there, there’s always someone who can decipher what the data says, and then point it out for the trumped up bovine waste it really says.

    It’s a crock meant to mislead, and the problem with that is that someone can always show up the deception.

    As you might expect, it’s taken a while to work through, and rather than respond to individual comments here, I’ll make a long comment on the weekend, if Joanne has an Unthreaded Post here. (farbeit from me to drop a hint)

    Craig, I doubt you’ll bother to come back and read it, because you think your job here has been done, and that you’ve seen us off, so to speak.

    Oh, and Craig, if you do come back, it’s bound to be quite embarrassing really.

    All this for a whole STATE which only consumes 5.2% of the Australian total power consumption, oh, and has to import almost 19% of that from Victoria’s Brown Coal fired power plants.

    Oh, and Rereke, wait till you hear the scam associated with the wording of, and the detail surrounding the term Registered Capacity. It’s a doozy.

    Tony.

    30

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      Yes Tony, I did spot the anomaly, and commented at 49.2.2.1.7, asking him to explain.

      20

    • #
      Rod Stuart

      The trolls have all attended the Saul Alinsky school of civilisation destruction.
      “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule.”
      -Saul Alinsky

      10

      • #
        gai

        Dear, Rod,

        I always though the ridicule technique left them looking like they had no logical argument and had descended to the level of 7 year old playground bullies.

        As the ridicule rises you know you are over the target. In politics the guy they go after with a vengeance is the guy you want to vote for.

        00