JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Gina McCarthy, EPA: carbon reduction is not about pollution – it’s about money

I don’t think Gina McCarthy had thought this through. McCarthy to the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee:

“And the great thing about this proposal is it really is an investment opportunity. This is not about pollution control. It’s about increased efficiency at our plants…It’s about investments in renewables and clean energy. It’s about investments in people’s ability to lower their electricity bills by getting good, clean, efficient appliances, homes, rental units,”
“This is an investment strategy that will really not just reduce carbon pollution but will position the United States to continue to grow economically in every state, based on their own design,” McCarthy added.

She is discussing something called the Clean Power Plan. Mark this day. She goes on to find the perpetual motion machine of economics:

Sir, what I know about this rule is that I know it will leave the United States in 2030 with a more efficient and cleaner energy supply system — and more jobs in clean energy, which are the jobs of the future,” McCarthy responded.

The EPA doesn’t just have a landline to God. They are God. They can use less energy to generate more wealth, more employment, and global peace.

But she said she doesn’t expect any adverse impact from this rule — “other than to have jobs grow, the economy to grow, the U.S. to become more stable, the U.S. to take advantage of new technology, innovation and investments that will make us stronger over time.”

Asked to explain what consumers can expect from the new rule, McCarthy said EPA expects people to see lower energy bills “because we’re getting waste out of the system.” In other words, if electricity costs more, people will use less of it.

Read it all at CNSNews.com

The whole supply-demand idea of economics is obviously wrong. By making electricity cost more and shifting people off electricity to other forms of energy, demand will fall for electricity. OK. At the same time increasing demand for other energy will make that cheaper instead of more expensive. Somehow technological advance only works on EPA approved topics.

We should have done this years ago. If we had stopped using coal, oil and gas in 1970, we could have been so rich now.

h/t to Roy Spencer who was right to pick up her congressional comments.

 

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174 comments to Gina McCarthy, EPA: carbon reduction is not about pollution – it’s about money

  • #

    [...] Ms. Jo pointed this out, http://joannenova.com.au/2014/07/gina-mccarthy-epa-carbon-reduction-is-not-about-pollution-its-about… [...]

    10

  • #
    turnedoutnice

    Darn: that means all those pencils I have stored up aren’t going to have scarcity value.

    50

  • #

    Yet no one listens to me when I call them the Insane Left, in capitals.

    260

    • #
      Steve

      Don’t worry , they are power MAD alright

      Socialists only understand an insane lust for power.

      They are the powers-that-be thugs for hire.

      This is why you see the super wealthy backing climate change- they have the left as their muscle/fall guys

      All is a game, you just need to know the rules …..

      150

  • #
    Senex Bibax

    “It’s about investments in people’s ability to lower their electricity bills by getting good, clean, efficient appliances, homes, rental units,”

    This is completely false in my personal experience, at least in places where there exists a monopoly on electricity distribution and supply, such as Canada’s province of Ontario. As individual and total electricity consumption falls, utilities raise the kWh rates to compensate for the reduced revenue stream. This is exacerbated by government mandated preferential market access and feed-in tariffs for so-called green power providers that pay huge premiums over the rates paid to conventional generators. Add in the cost of government mandated “smart meters”, centralised customer consumption databases and new billing systems required to implement them, all of which get passed on to the individual consumer. And yet the government keeps encouraging households to save more and more electricity.

    The average household in Ontario will see monthly electricity bills rise by 42% over the next five years, and continued increases beyond that:
    Typical Family’s Monthly Hydro Bill

    2013 – $125
    2014 – $137
    2015 – $145
    2016 – $167
    2017 – $170
    2018 – $178
    2019 – $177
    2020 – $181
    2025 – $194
    2030 – $205

    (Source: Ontario Long-Term Energy Plan. 2013)

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    • #
      Safetyguy66

      The basic math behind the FACT that renewables will drive up power prices is the warmists Everest of denial.

      Its almost like they can conceive of the notion that solar and wind power are potentially free, but cant make the same mental leap to the inescapable conclusion that once converted to useable electricity, they are extremely expensive and inefficient. Its very child like behaviour, its like a form of petulant delusion. They simply cannot accept that renewables are decades from being market ready so they ignore the fact and plough on. Very strange behaviour.

      150

    • #

      Just Energy is the name for what the community organizing groups in the US have been told these CO2 hearings are really about.

      Here in Atlanta Georgia the hearings are tomorrow and Wednesday. Buses are running and there are press conferences and marches scheduled around the use of these hearings to actually promote Social and Economic Justice. Not a surprise to me since I have also read Van Jones declaring that same link on why political radicals love Green Energy. The governments must plan and then get to decide who benefits and where it goes.

      But to be so open now in the EPA hearings. Providing breakfast and a sack lunch for the marchers and potential testifiers and transit from a local community center.

      40

  • #

    An utter raving lunatic. Science, reason and sanity are alien to this madwoman. Increase the cost of the most basic element of the production of all common goods and we will become richer. Any person espousing this delirious fatuism must be locked up for the safety of the community and to prevent them self-harming.

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    • #
      Safetyguy66

      Spot on. Its beyond dishonesty or lack of knowledge, its a form of mental illness.

      140

      • #
        Winston

        It is a mental illness characterised by:
        1. widespread reliance upon sweeping generalisations,
        2. extensive use of broad speculative assertions without resorting necessarily to a basis in fact,
        3. entrenched narcissism coupled with massive insecurity and dread fear of individualism thereby shifting their locus of control onto others,
        4. broadly superficial focus in problem solving,
        5. near absence of analytical skills,
        6. emotive rather than rational reasoning skills,
        7. conspicuous tendencies to self deception,
        8. selective blindness when confronted with inconvenient data or facts,
        9. manipulative personality traits and the ability to rationalise the most deceptive or dishonest behaviour as moral or justified, and
        10. complete inability to accept responsibility for the negative effects of any actions instigated by them.

        190

  • #
    Bones

    After reading her speech I think Ms McCarthy had juliar and the gangreens help her write it.Sounds very much like what we were fed when we got our carbon non tax.Obuma is doing a great job of digging a deep hole for the U.S.A.soon to be United Socialist States of America Or Islamic States of America or United States of South America.Sorry Roy.

    230

    • #
      King Geo

      Senator Joe McCarthy some 60 years ago in US politics was paranoic about “communists” infiltrating US society – now we have another McCarthy – Gina – paranoic about carbon and promoting “mass decarbonisation” in the US Economy – well I agree with you Bones – follow Gina’s lead and the USA will well and truly be on the “bones of its arse”. Currently states like Texas and North Dakota with their “shale gas/shale oil booms” are going a long way to keeping the USA from being on the “bones of its arse”.

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      • #
        Bones

        Joe McCarthy was paranoid about communists but it did’nt do much good,they now run the government.

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        • #
          King Geo

          “Joe McCarthy was paranoid about communists but it didn’t do much good, they now run the government”.

          Correct Bones, that is until the Republicans return – if that doesn’t happen in 2016 “good help America” because no one else will.

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  • #
    realist

    “…an investment strategy that will really not just reduce carbon pollution..”
    “…I know it will leave the United States in 2030 with a more efficient and cleaner energy supply system…”
    Clear statements of delusion, dis-connection and daliance with dogma. Sounds like she could be a good candidate to supplant the Greens “leader” out here. Ideal credentials.

    Last Wednesday morning, an absolute ripper frost, trees white to the top east and west of Ballarat, travelling west on the highway, calm, no wind: reminscent of a normal winters’s morning in the 50′s. To the north the 128 Waubra “clean energy” windmills rotating, powered by coal powered energy to keep them functional and the blades from icing up. Classic example of the hypocrisy embodied in the statements by Gina McCarthy, the Greens and their fellow travellers. “Sustainable” energy: Utter rot.

    Jo is spot on: in their view, They are God. Or it would seem they believe their own dogma almost beyond the point of religious zeal, morphing into fanatacism, which is where environmentalism (and other “isms”) seem to end up. It’s moved past beyond the benign “environmentally conscious”, or the next level of “saving the world”, it’s now taking on the distinctly dictatorial flavour of socialism on steroids where, as I heard spoken last week, “we will impose environmental regulations on you to change your behaviour” (in a New Zealand context of controls on agricultural “pollution”, i.e, normal CO2 “emissions”).

    Some actually believe, fervently, with absolute passion, that carbon dioxide “pollution” should be reduced to a “sustainable level”, but with absolutely no understanding that the need for an increase in food production is inherently linked to that specific “pollution” continuing to rise. Government imposition is diametrically opposed to logic and reality. Perhaps Nature will have to move Gaia to one side with force (boy, it’s really cold outside!) before the indoctrinated are removed from positions of authority.

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  • #
    pat

    Chris Huhne enters the fray – calls on Greens to help punish Putin*** to save the planet from CAGW:

    28 July: Guardian: Chris Huhne: The energy-efficient way to punish Putin – and protect the planet
    For once Europe’s greens and securocrats can join forces – by reducing the EU’s dependence on imports of Russian gas
    As Van Rompuy says, sanctions “should have a strong impact on the Russian economy while keeping a moderate effect on the EU economies”.
    The Brussels package looks as if it will straddle arms, finance and technology, and will spread the load across the member states…
    Russian gas is explicitly excluded from the sanctions package, recognising that EU members as a whole buy nearly a quarter of their gas from Russia, and that Germany buys over a third. But the share of Russian gas in EU gas imports has been declining for many years, and Russian gas accounts for less than a 10th of the EU’s primary energy consumption…
    The dependence could nevertheless be cut further: the EU summit in October is set to decide whether the 30% energy saving target for 2030 should be as legally enforceable as its renewable targets, something the Germans and the Danes want. Nothing else (certainly not shale gas production – fracking) can reduce energy import dependence more quickly.
    Energy efficiency makes sense not just to curb imports, but also to cut carbon emissions. The European commission’s work has shown that gas imports could be down sharply with a modest increase in ambition on renewables and energy efficiency…
    The technology is there: more renewable electricity; more biogas from waste; more insulation to curb heating demand; more ground- and air-source heat pumps to replace gas boilers at home; more solar thermal for hot water.
    Energy efficiency – insulation of homes, for one – is cheaper than any energy-producing or generating option (which is why the Treasury cuts in the UK’s Eco energy efficiency budget are such folly).
    ***For once, Europe’s greens can make common cause with Europe’s securocrats: cutting gas demand makes sense both to protect the planet and to punish Putin.
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/27/energy-efficient-putin-planet-europe-greens-russia

    ***Kiev has been bombing East Ukraine for weeks now, white phosphorous(?)allegedly being used, half a million refugees, but EU thinks Putin is being “erratic” & Barroso is doing stress-tests to see how EU States can cope without Russian gas!

    28 July: UK Telegraph: Peter Foster: Europe finally set to get tough with ‘erratic’ Putin
    With Vladimir Putin’s behaviour growing increasingly unpredictable and fighting escalating in the eastern Ukraine, Europe is now poised for a step-change in the level of its economic sanctions against Moscow.
    Until now, the scope of EU sanctions has been limited by what analysts call the ‘triple lock’ of French demands to protect its defence contracts, German concern over its reliance on Russia gas and British fears that sanctions would hit the City…
    The US source said the new sanctions package would likely still contain several carve-outs, such as hitting future rather than existing defence contracts, allowing France to deliver its two Mistral helicopter carriers…

    ***The new seriousness of European thinking was indicated last week when commission chief José Manuel Barroso revealed that his energy department was doing “stress-tests” on how EU states could cope without Russian gas, with results due in October, the EU Observer reported.

    Final details are still to be worked out, but it is clear that the US now expects to see Europe enact a far greater portion of what was outlined in the EU paper than that expected just a few days ago.
    Decisions could be taken as soon as this Tuesday, when EU country ambassadors meet, or might take until Wednesday or Thursday if it is decided that EU leaders need to meet – likely via teleconference – to take the final decision.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/10994820/Europe-finally-set-to-get-tough-with-erratic-Putin.html

    madness.

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    • #
      Tim

      “We’ll reduce the population if we can gradually withdraw their life support systems. They fell for ‘Climate Change’; they’re sure to fall for ‘Energy Efficiency’.”

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      • #
        OriginalSteve

        And *that* is why we need to have our houses self sufficient for power.

        Italy basically has power rationing, so unless we want a very bleak future, we need to be self powered as well.

        The hard left/greens openly advocate population reduction ( forcibly if required ) – make of that what you will….

        50

    • #

      28 July: Guardian: Chris Huhne: The energy-efficient way to punish Putin – and protect the planet

      Huhne understands “punishment”. After spending a long weekend at a holiday resort for attempting to pervert the course of justice in avoiding speeding fines, etc. by having his wife say that she was driving. Ironically, the instruments of his downfall (speed cameras) were introduced to the UK by his own company; as a measure to reduce road trauma. Arguably, nothing the Huhne has ever done in public or business life stands up to rigorous tests.

      I am not surprised that such a man should be writing for The Guardian?

      80

  • #
    ROM

    Very minor correction Jo. First line..

    “I don’t think Gina McCarthy had [ through ] thought this through.

    Next;
    It seems that Gina McCarthy in her ignorance doesn’t really have a clue or worse, doesn’t care that she doesn’t know nor wants to know the powerful, efficient economic underpinnings of the very wealthy society she lives and works in or how that same American society became as wealthy as it is and why it became the dominant world power for the whole of the 20th and at least the early part of the 21st century.

    It’s called Capitalism
    __________________

    From the Free Dictionary

    cap·i·tal·ism (kp-tl-zm)
    n.
    An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

    *****************
    Limit those profits and development slows or ceases as the profits disappear as there is no longer any finance nor economic reward nor any economic incentive to invest in further development of a technology or a society benefiting development..

    Gina Mccarthy would be wise indeed to take heed of the words and deeds of the Chinese Communist leader whose famous remark “It does not matter if the cat is black or white, so long as it catches the mouse” which is acknowledged as opening the way for the Chinese people to start the long road of raising the living standards of their then 900 millions now 1.3 billions by adopting capitalistic principles as the economic structure to achieve their goals.
    And we read of their success every day.

    [quoted from; Columbia Edu's Asia for Educators ]
    Deng Xiaoping said that “practice is the sole criterion of truth,” and believed that only by experimenting with alternative forms of production and entrepreneurial activity would China find the best path for economic development. Thus began China’s experiments with capitalist methods of production. As Deng said, “it does not matter if a cat is black or white so long as it catches the mouse;” it no longer matters if an economic policy is capitalist or socialist, in other words, as long as it results in economic growth.

    Unfortunately for Deng’s role in Chinese history, he now has the responsibility for ordering the clearing of the Tiananmen Square and the consequent killing of hundreds of unarmed students forever against his name.

    Meanwhile it appears that Gina McCarthy is trying to drag America down the Socialist “government knows best what is good for you” road that the Chinese nation had tried and totally failed at and has since steadily gone about abandoning those failed, anti market, socialistic economic policies they held so dear and which nearly crippled an already very economically weak China nearly 40 years ago.

    For Gina Mccarthy such ignorance no doubt is bliss.

    For America it spells the way to an economic hell , an economic and social stagnation and the eventual collapse of the optimistic, gung ho, go for it, attitude that has taken the always optimistic America of old so far along the path of human development that the rest of the world has turned to America for both leadership and an example for over a century past.

    It is people like you Gina McCarthy who are hell bent on and who are now destroying the great American dream.
    And when you succeed you will have destroyed the very thing that allowed you to occupy and use the power of the exalted position you have and the lives of couple of hundreds of millions of other far less advantaged people.

    [Typo fixed thanks ROM. - Mod]

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    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      Years ago, I had to complete a mandatory university paper on the subject of, “The Collapse of Civilisations.”

      When I look at what is going on in America, and the attitudes of those with some power, it has finally dawned on me why this paper was mandatory.

      Instead of projecting power and influence, as it has done for generations, the United States has started to use what power it still possesses, to consume itself politically.

      240

      • #
        Spetzer86

        Yes, we’re seeing what Obama meant when he said he was going to “fundamentally transform” this country.

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        • #
          Steve

          Well the reality is it takes backbone and moral fibre to create a just and good society.
          Whether people like it or not, our Christian-judeo history and heritage has been a force for good, as it has in the USA.

          Now take Godless, brutal atheistic socialism that destroys everything it touches and ask yourself which system furthers life and human dignity?

          50

  • #
    Sonny

    When anybody repeats “it’s about” more than three times while explaining an abstract concept, that’s when you know you are listening to person who doesn’t have the faintest clue what it’s really about.

    “It’s about justice, it’s about mabo, it’s about the vibe and yeh it’s just about the vibe”.

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  • #

    Jo says:-

    She goes on to find the perpetual motion machine of economics

    I disagree. More jobs for the same output is lower output per person. This is a tautology.
    Lower output per person means lower income per person unless there is a permenant reduction in the structural unemployment rate. But more onerous costs and regulations makes the economy more inflexible, helping increase structural unemployment.
    Therefore Gina McCarthy is saying the Clean Power Plan will reduce living standards through reducing productivity.

    180

    • #
      Harry Passfield

      Hi Kevin! I can’t work out where the tautology is in what McCarthy says but I do think you’re on to something. Perhaps this will come to be known as the ‘Mccarthy paradox’.

      50

      • #

        Harry,

        The tautology is in the phrase “More jobs for the same output is lower output per person.”
        For example. A car factory produces 100,000 cars a year with 2,000 employees. The Government pays for another 500, with unchanged output. Output per employee drops from 50 to 40 a year.

        Gina McCarthy says nothing profound, and nothing new. Like so many people of the opinionated left, she ignores economics and logic, so ends up saying silly things.

        180

    • #
      Geoff Sherrington

      Kevin,
      Good point. If you develop the concept, you end up with a question like ‘What forms of work give a net social gain?’
      The way to answer this still eludes me. Any thoughts?

      50

      • #

        ‘What forms of work give a net social gain?’
        The answer will be always elusive if you look at it purely engineering terms, or in physical terms.
        Many innovations are destructive of jobs. New competition is also destructive of jobs. Yet (as Schumpeter put it) through “waves of creative destruction” we are better off. In real terms >35 times better off per capita in UK/Australia than the English in 1700.
        If someone tries claims to identify a particular something that gives “net social gain” they might be right in the short term. But ultimately they will be wrong.

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          the Griss

          Gees, I dunno… a device that made all Green politicians unable to speak would have a massive net social gain, and I can’t see any long term issue with it either.

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          • #
            Bones

            Griss,you’ve got an evil mind,when can we start work on a’device’.Come to think of it a VICE would work nicely.

            10

          • #

            And by reducing their production of hot air would reduce global warming. :)
            There are plenty of examples of where stopping or replacing activities beneficial to some can give a net social gain. For instance.
            - Stopping crimial activity.
            - 200 years ago, replacing cottage industries with factories were of a huge net social gain.
            - Stopping the carbon tax created some losers.
            - Removing burdensome regulations can lead to job losses, but with a lot of people experiencing small net gains.
            - Stopping subsidies often is net beneficial, but with a small number of big losers.

            Problem is that gains are often dispersed and long-term so difficult to estimate. Losses are often immediate. As a result, when a change occurs, public perception of the net effects can often be the opposite of the reality. This is especially the case where those who claim they are “experts” are partisan and ignorant of the harms of actions. The best example is “experts” on climate policy.

            10

  • #
    TdeF

    What is missing in all this is how useful some fuels are. Without kerosense, how would 45,000 people be able to fly into Rio to discuss the disastrous impact of jet travel? How would they have their aircraft without all the plastics, but I guess in first class they would have real knives and forks. Then all the limousines to carry those 57 heads of state and 31 heads of governments and all the CEOs to their economical hotels. This will all be sadly missed when we run out of fossil fuels and they have to use cardboard aircraft powered by rubber bands and wooden iPhones powered by windmills. Why is there such an air of unreality about the EPA and all such Green organizations? How can an alleged scientist like Flannery go on about Gaia and her feelings with a straight face? Why do you get the feeling that some of these people are three coupons short of a toaster?

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    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      Without kerosense, how would 45,000 people be able to fly into Rio to discuss the disastrous impact of jet travel?

      They wont use kerosene, they will put windmills on the front of the wings. McCarthy knows this works, because she has seen photos …

      240

    • #
      James Bradley

      …and let the Hunger Games begin.

      60

  • #
    Peter Miller

    I think she means if you have universal energy poverty, that means most people’s average electricity bill should fall.

    Overpaid, pointless bureaucrats are obviously very important people and therefore they consider they should be exempt from energy poverty, so Gina McCarthy will be just fine.

    The greatest enemies of mankind are currently: i) Overpaid, pointless bureaucrats, and ii) ‘Got to be seen to be saving the world’ politicians.

    Is it rude to make this comment? A pox on both of their houses!

    170

  • #
    motvikten

    About money, two links.

    http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2014/05/low-carbon-electricity-technologies-frank

    https://www.pik-potsdam.de/members/hirth/hirth

    Maybe someone has access to journals where Hirth has publicized and can enlighten readers if the Potsdam Institute and the Brookings agree or disagree.

    30

  • #
    PhilJourdan

    The revealing thing about mcCarthy’s testimony is not that it is not true about their beliefs, it is that they no longer feel the need to hide it behind their obfuscation of words.

    90

  • #
    Graeme No.3

    I don’t believe that any of these people have a clue. They should be forced to explain what their waffle really means.
    When you say renewable energy do you mean expensive and unpredictable energy with lots of blackouts?
    How will people with less money (because of high power bills) suddenly find the money to buy the new “power saving” appliances?

    Sorry, but the electricity companies, esp. In the North East, should call their bluff and shut down 6 to 10 coal fired stations just before the coming election in November. To hell with being nice guys going out of business slowly, just say they’re doing their bit to reduce emissions as instructed. The resulting short sharp shock might restore some sanity into the debate. At the very least it will focuses the public mind on what those fuzzy phrases will mean for them.

    90

    • #
      ianl8888


      The resulting short sharp shock might restore some sanity into the debate

      Unhappily, the resulting panic will kill people. No power generator will do this – they will be jailed for it

      The UK is in the process of showing the way – poor, old people die from cold and the Govt claims progress

      When we were discussing this possibility twenty years ago, I believed then that such an outcome was impossible in a democracy. I was very wrong

      90

      • #
        Graeme No.3

        ianl8888:

        Unfortunately there will be a major blackout if this nonsense doesn’t stop. The NE ran close to overload last very cold winter. Another winter like that might be enough to bring on disaster. It would be better to have a shock in early Nov. before the cold gets lethal.

        As for the power stations stopping deliberately, a small mistake e.g. relying on the wind turbines to cause the grid to collapse. It has happened before.

        10

  • #
    Spetzer86

    I like the observation that we’ll be better off because we’ll purchase energy efficient appliances to reduce use. Of course, you do need money to buy these appliances that always seem to be either more expensive or lower quality / higher failure rates. The poor have all that loose change to buy these new appliances, so that’ll work really well.

    The other point has been made a few times in that when you hire more people to produce the same amount of items, you’ve lowered the overall system efficiency. Give those people “decent” wages and you’ll quickly have increased the cost of the system. Again, the poor must have a lot of liquidity, because they’ll be paying out a higher percentage of their money for power.

    90

  • #
    George Applegate

    Another do-gooder with no science training. President Obama has surrounded himself with people who are not equipped to understand the issue.

    160

    • #
      Kevin Lohse

      POTUS is a US Liberal, surrounded by other US Liberals. Consequently he has no- one to understand the issues. or even tell him what questions he should be asking to understand the issues, as a US Liberal has only to BELIEVE.

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  • #

    Do we in America have a corner on the insane in politics or is it universal. I ask because I don’t get out as much as I used to.

    [Unfortunately Universal! - Mod]

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  • #
    ralph

    Did someone ask Gina where those 5 million “green jobs” are that Obama promised in 2008? I would imagine the same place the “carbon reduction” jobs will be in 2030.

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  • #
    PeterK

    “…it will leave the United States in 2030 with a more efficient and cleaner energy supply system — and more jobs in clean energy, which are the jobs of the future,” McCarthy responded.”

    “But she said she doesn’t expect any adverse impact from this rule — “other than to have jobs grow, the economy to grow, the U.S. to become more stable, the U.S. to take advantage of new technology, innovation and investments that will make us stronger over time.”

    “Asked to explain what consumers can expect from the new rule, McCarthy said EPA expects people to see lower energy bills “because we’re getting waste out of the system.” In other words, if electricity costs more, people will use less of it.”

    Actually, me thinks that McCarthy is right! I do foresee in the not too distant future my power bill for electricity to be dramatically reduced cost wise. Of course you need to factor in that I will only be getting electricity intermittingly (brown-outs) and many days there will be no electricity to be had. So yes, today I pay about $120 Cdn for my electricity on a monthly basis and in the not to distant future I believe my costs will decrease dramatically to about $50 per month for the very limited electricity that I will consume.

    And all those clean jobs will cause a spike in employment. No more excavators where one man using the machine will dig a trench. Instead, we will employ thirty men to dig that trench by pick and shovel…how green will these types of jobs be. Oh and instead of using machinery on farms, we will employ hundreds to manually plant, weed and harvest our crops. And so on. I’m sure there are hundreds of other such improvements to ‘green technology’ that we all can make if we just buckle down, put our minds together and become creative.

    And I to don’t expect any adverse impact from this rule, because jobs will grow, the economy will grow and by taking advantage of these new technologies, innovations and investments will make us stronger over time.

    I guess several hundreds of millions of people will die with these new and improved ‘green technologies’, but hey, it’s all in saving our dearly beloved earth from the evil humans that pollute its surface.

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    • #
      diogenese2

      bad luck Peter. As the renewable subsidies are spread across the total consumption, a decrease in usage causes an increase in price. Isn’t this the situation in Ontario where so much industry has closed or decamped that the remaining users are being crucified? I am reminded that in pre-industrial times there was always a surplus of impoverished labour to provide the cannon fodder for the armies and navies of Europe (and elseware)to pursue the blood sports of the oligarchies.
      Those were the days! I fear nostalgia isn’t what it used to be. Ah Napoleon — there was a progressive. I “little ice age is all we need.

      60

  • #
    Lionell Griffith

    The money motive is an excuse to hide the fact that their not so hidden intent is to destroy modern technological civilization and the overwhelming majority of the world’s population who depend upon it for survival.

    It takes massive amounts of energy to produce the goods and services required to maintain our civilization. Without it, the substance of the civilization will collapse along with most of the population. The result will be that vastly less will be produced and the little that can be produced will be a sparse subsistence level of goods and services. Any money that exists will have nothing to buy because no one will be able to produce surplus wealth to have for sale. Money will thereby be nothing but a mirage.

    The moral reasoning involved is that if a plan is repeatedly put into effect and gives a certain result, the result it gives is the actual intended result rather than the stated goal. Thus they INTEND to destroy modern technological civilization and thereby decimate the world’s population. They do not want to live and they especially don’t want the rest of us to live either.

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      The old revolutionary undercurrent: One must first destroy to rebuild.

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        Lionell Griffith

        That too is another facade. The goal is destruction. The fantasy of rebuilding is the excuse.

        When the economic foundation of civilization is destroyed, there is nothing left with which to rebuild. The few who survive will be functioning on survival rations at the best. There will be no surplus. You must have surplus production to rebuild. Thus no rebuilding.

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    Robert O

    A lack of scientific and engineering training seems to be associated with the pundits of clean energy and “carbon pollution”. To produce base load power one needs turbines driven by steam (coal, oil, gas or nuclear) or water in the case of hydro. Wind, solar, tidal power tends to be intermittent and of a fairly low output. I have yet to see a mathematically valid correlation between global temperature and levels of CO2 in the atmosphere, but other hypotheses relating to solar activity seem to be far more likely. After the carbon taxes, perhaps a solar tax would help in this regard!

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      Rereke Whakaaro

      … perhaps a solar tax …

      Don’t even joke about it. They will try to tax you, on the basis of inverse cloud cover.

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        tom0mason

        .

        “They will try to tax you, on the basis of inverse cloud cover.”

        And BOM will suppy the corrected and adjusted cloud cover figures that will be use to calculate you liability.

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        ianl8888

        Spain has already been there, done that

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        bobl

        Rereke,
        About the Solar tax… don’t knock it – think about it a bit, Sunny California Taxed into Oblivion but New Zealand – Well the Sun NEVER shines there and you’ll be rich beyond Avarice, Particularly if you live in Wellington.

        PS… Your Surname? Not because you are bl***dy good at cricket right …

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    PeterS

    The left, although insane, are not the real culprits. The blame rests with the vast numbers of skeptical scientists who are still silent on the subject. Sure there are a few that are openly critical but they are in such a small minority they are ignored by the mainstream media and the masses. What we need is a collaborative effort on the part of the honest scientists to stand up and counted, and continually make loud noises until the media and masses understand the game the AGW alarmists are playing. As the saying goes, “the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

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      Rereke Whakaaro

      If you work in an industry, where there is a shortage of people who can fill a certain role, then those people get paid well, and have some latitude in defining how the job gets done. You know, and your boss knows, that you can walk down the street and get another job, possibly for more money.

      But, if you work in an industry, where there is an oversupply of people who could potentially do your job, then you tend to knuckle down, keep a low profile, and get the job done without asking too many questions.

      I personally make a distinction between Physicists, who study atmospheric dynamics; Climatologists, who study weather patterns; and Climate Scientists, who attempt to model historic temperature trends, with a view to making predictions about future trends, that never seem to eventuate, except by chance, or back-casting.

      I think of these three groups as Researchers, Applied Scientists, and Artisans.

      Unfortunately, there is an oversupply of people with third-rate degrees, who are only equipped to work as artisans. They are not about to rock the boat, especially since there may well be a squall approaching, if and when, it is shown that CO2 only has an insignificant impact, or secondary affect, on the climate.

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        PeterS

        I agree with how you started and your conclusion but the rest misses my point. Virtually all scientists regardless of their stature or circumstance are to blame for their silence in the matter. Only a select few have spoken out, such as Bob Carter. If even only a third were like him, things would be so much better.

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    Matty

    European Commision’s Chief Scientist is not to the liking of Greenpeace .
    From 1hr 10 minutes in, if you can see it on BBC iPlayer (from 26 July)
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04bj7pf

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    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      I liked the comment about corporate lobbying being much more extensively funded, “than the ragged arsed NGO’s can manage”. Last time I looked, Greenpeace et al, were swimming in cash, and asking Governments, and people on the street, for more.

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        It’s now public knowledge that the EU and other “governments” fund NGO’s so that they can be lobbied by the same NGO’s to set in train certain policies.

        Incestuous? Conflict of interest?

        No wonder Senator Brandis wants to stop government funding of NGOs that lobby the government.

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          bobl

          Absolutely agree, any organisation that spends more than a very small fraction of it’s resources on lobbying, should not be funded by government or receive deductible donation status. There is a huge conflict of interest in governments paying NGOs to lobby the government, it’s wrong, it’s corrupt. Oh, and that INCLUDES unions!

          In fact I’d also say that no corporate recipient of government money or organisation with deductible donation status should be able to donate to political parties either. This idea of granting organisations money from the “Government” so that those organisations can donate it to their favourite political party should stop now.

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    handjive

    Australia’s Chief Scientist found out misrepresenting the scientific process.

    March 2012 Quote:
    “We have seen in recent times how the scientific process has been misrepresented.
    How debate amongst scientists has been portrayed.
    How the natural unwillingness of a real scientist to talk about proof rather than the weight of evidence has been misrepresented.

    I am reminded of a piece in the Wall Street Journal recently, responding to an earlier one authored by 16 (denier) scientists two of whom had expertise[11].

    The response started with words like: if you have a heart problem do you go to your dentist.

    http://www.chiefscientist.gov.au/2012/03/inspiring-australias-scientific-culture/
    ~ ~ ~

    28 July 2014:

    “Researchers have found that treating gum disease (periodontal disease) may reduce heart disease, diabetes and other conditions.”

    https://theconversation.com/gum-disease-linked-to-chronic-health-problems-29768
    . . .
    Unless there is a response, acknowledgement & apology, Australia’s Chief Scientist stands condemned of what he accuses others of.

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    handjive

    Money. And Control.
    - via carbon(sic) action.

    Green Group Under Scrutiny for Trespassing, Harassment at Woman’s Farm
    http://dailysignal.com/2014/07/24/green-group-cross-line-inspection-virginia-farm/
    ~ ~ ~
    Scientists have called for a blanket ban on free fertility treatment for those making “lifestyle” reproductive choices, such as sterilization reversal or single motherhood for fertile women.

    They have also called for a legislation that makes fertility clinics subject to carbon capping schemes, in a bid to help curb climate change.

    The US, for example, is the world’s second largest carbon emitter, producing 20 metric tonnes of carbon dioxide (CO2) per person per year, which multiplies by a factor of 5, with the birth of a child.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/environment/global-warming/lifestyle-babies/articleshow/39117026.cms
    . . .

    When the greenpoliticians talk about the saving the planet for the children’s children, exactly who’s children are they talking about?

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    I suggest everyone read:
    TRAGEDY & HOPE 101 – THE ILLUSION OF JUSTICE, FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY,
    by Joseph Plummer, Brushfire Publishing, Grafton, Ohio, 2014.
    Eye and mind opener, not for the faint-hearted.
    The back cover blurb advises: “Read at your own risk.”

    A soft introduction might be the interview with Ottmar Edenhofer (IPCC working group chair) at
    http://cleanenergypundit.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/west-is-facing-new-severe-recession.html

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    I could have sworn that our civilisation was built on people being honest. Yes, we might be the descendents of people who raided and leached on a more prosperous society but society grew because of people being honest, not just intelligent. Pragmatic at times but aware of not getting into the habit of lying.

    You can waffle on like a Monty Python skit all you like but what will help development is a culture of honesty. That’s a belief. I can’t prove it.

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      Roy Hogue

      The real crisis, if you’ll permit me to disagree, is a moral one, not an honesty problem at all.

      Can anyone tell me who made this statement regarding the U.S. Constitution? He’s a well known founder of this country.

      Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.

      And therein lies our problem. Honesty comes naturally to the moral individual and it matters to them. But it matters little or not at all to far too many of the amoral and immoral.

      Morality and a strong conviction that you are accountable to a higher authority than yourself are very much connected. Else why be honest? I don’t know all the answers but this is what my life’s experience has shown me.

      If you think I’m wrong about this you’re welcome to respond. I’ll read what you say and reply back and I promise to be civil while doing it. But don’t expect to easily convince me otherwise.

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        ROM

        Roy Hogue @ 29.1

        An interesting comment and take on morality and honesty there Roy.

        And the answer to your question [ and I cheated with Wiki quotes! ]

        John Adams (30 October 1735 – 4 July 1826) was the first (1789–1797) Vice President of the United States, and the second (1797–1801) President of the United States, in office from 4 March 1797 to 4 March 1801.

        Now next question for our American friends and it also is a quote from one of America’s Founding fathers.
        And I think a very, very relevant quote relating to the current American administration’s drive for complete domination over every aspect of it’s citizen’s lives

        So where is this quote found?

        “It is important, likewise, that the habits of thinking in a free country should inspire caution in those entrusted with its administration, to confine themselves within their respective constitutional spheres, avoiding in the exercise of the powers of one department to encroach upon another. The spirit of encroachment tends to consolidate the powers of all the departments in one, and thus to create, whatever the form of government, a real despotism. A just estimate of that love of power, and proneness to abuse it, which predominates in the human heart, is sufficient to satisfy us of the truth of this position

        Answer @

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          ROM

          OOPs! Answer @ # 36

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            PhilJourdan

            No need. he is our considered the father of the country. It set the precedent (unfortunately not the amendment) of only serving 2 terms. A precedent that was only violated once (and got us the amendment).

            GW McLintock

            Wait! Damn, watching too much John Wayne – George Washington.

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          Roy Hogue

          ROM,

          “Cheating” in this case was expected, so no problem. And your quote in return is in fact very relevant to today’s challenges. It drives the nail right into the heart of our problem.

          But there is a mechanism within the human makeup which makes this current problem possible to the degree that we now suffer. And it’s the lack of a sound moral compass to guide the political left as well as far too many on the right or even in the center.

          We have come to the point where the end justifies the means without the slightest bit of doubt in one’s conscience. We are devolving into a law-of-the-jungle attitude, having forgotten how long and painful our climb out of that state of horror was in the first place. So we now begin to repeat what history should teach us to avoid and all because we forgot to remember that morality and accountability matter.

          Laws are important. But they only work when the moral compass and the sense of accountability work.

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            PhilJourdan

            We have come to the point where the end justifies the means without the slightest bit of doubt in one’s conscience.

            I am not sure that “we have come” is the correct terminology, but there is no question we are there. I just saw it happening a longer time ago. The difference today is they do not try to hide it.

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              Roy Hogue

              It certainly has always been present throughout our history. But there were many who fought against it and it was kept in check better. Now it seems to be glorified both in and outside of popular entertainment. The cultural shift has been like an earthquake tearing apart every standard I knew and held to be important as a young man.

              Just one rather nauseating example: a new series will soon start on the USA channel called, Satisfaction, with the controlling thesis apparently being cheating on one’s spouse when you boil it down to the real message. And the damned thing is getting rave reviews.

              What message does this send to our children?

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                PhilJourdan

                USA? Try MTV – http://www.deadline.com/2014/07/happyland-incest-mtv-craig-zadan-neil-meron/

                “Incest is hot, and we’re going to have fun!”

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                Roy Hogue

                All I can do is avoid this garbage and leave them to their own devices. Incest has always been around of course. But it used to cause the most people to react quite differently from,

                “Incest is hot, and we’re going to have fun!”

                If I had a small child today I don’t know how I would get through his/her childhood with both of us in one piece, emotionally or physically. For that matter I don’t know how I could stay out of jail for assault or worse upon the person of anyone introducing my child to this garbage. We’re stealing the childhood of our precious children and no one cares.

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                Roy Hogue

                MTV, by the way, has never given a damn about moral standards. I skip over it if I’m channel surfing

                The cable converter box is brainless and has no provision for locking out a channel. If you want any of the things your TV set can do if it was fed the raw TV signal directly you need a larger and more expensive box. They definitely went to college and learned to itemize the bill.

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              • #
                PhilJourdan

                @Roy – I agree about MTV, nor do I watch it. Like all cable channels, the original mission is long gone. I loved the “Video Jukebox” that spawned it (on HBO), but I have not seen a music video on it or its spin offs in a very long time.

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      • #

        I’m not going to disagree with the idea that simply following laws is not enough to be moral. I will disagree with the amoral and immoral distinction.

        Sociopaths do not have an innate sense of grief for the hurt others experience but if you have ever befriended one you do realise that they do try (until they give up). They very much need laws and religion which the influence of can be abused. Hence, you see CAGW apostles ranting about 10m sea level rises and buying waterfront properties or jetting off to Africa to see how the poor people will continue to live if this lunacy continues.

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          Roy Hogue

          I will disagree with the amoral and immoral distinction.

          Vic,

          I have no quarrel with your differing opinion about it. You could easily lump both together in one category.

          On the other hand — and even with dictionary distinctions being weak at best — you have to view the two quite differently or at least I do. The amoral person acknowledges no moral code of conduct whereas the immoral person acknowledges one and knows right from wrong but chooses to do the wrong thing for personal reasons. In that former category you do find a lot of plain old pathological behavior because behavior is completely unrestrained. In the latter category you find, for example, otherwise honest men and women who cheat on their spouses or their taxes but remain restrained by other general behavior expectations of those around them. It may be hard to tell the difference sometimes but there is one nonetheless.

          Neither of these groups is necessarily mentally ill as in the sociopath. The true sociopath has a far greater problem than morality.

          We agree on one thing, we have a terrible problem and need to solve it. And I wish I knew how that can be done.

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          • #

            Its estimated that 3% of males and 1% of females are sociopaths, so extreme as to be a clinical diagnosis but you do need to remember that the instinct that’s missing varies in strength in the rest of the population.

            What you consider the true sociopath is someone who gave up trying to be good. There are plenty in society who have off days but they consciously try to follow the rules.

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              Roy Hogue

              Vic,

              Forgive me but I’m always a bit leary about, “It’s estimated that…” Do you have a source for those numbers and better yet, the methodology that arrives at those numbers?

              The real numbers could be approximately the estimates but they could also be a long way off.

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              • #

                If its from a psychologist you take it with a huge pinch of salt but being a former teacher, I don’t think that its too far off the mark. More importantly is that the particular instinct or instincts that are missing vary in strength in the community and bad experiences can dull them in anyone.

                Then there is lack of appreciation of how something seemingly trivial can affect the community badly. As an example, if you think that consenting adults should be allowed to do what ever they want, what do ugly people with no personality do?

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                Roy Hogue

                Vic,

                The pinch of salt I’ll certainly buy into.

                Consenting adults doing, “…whatever they want…” is not necessarily trivial. But in the end they’ve always done whatever they want. And after all, how do you police them? You can’t. Those who can do it wisely don’t often get hurt but those who’re foolish about what or with whom (or how) they do it can be hurt badly. And those failures many times affect a lot of others.

                I’ve no clue about how to heal the human race but I know things work better when we have a stronger moral foundation.

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        Another Ian

        Roy

        O/T here but check solar comments previous

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    Roy Hogue

    I don’t think Gina McCarthy had thought this through.

    May I disagree with you, Jo? I think she meant exactly what she said. It echos the line of bull coming from the president on down, “investment… …investment… …investment.” Only it’s going to turn out to be investment in control of the people, not anything for their benefit.

    This line comes out of DC so often I don’t even pay attention to anyone who says it anymore. I just pay attention to whatever I can do to get them out of power, which isn’t much.

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      Roy Hogue

      Investment is just a euphemism for wasting more money. But that’s exactly the line they hand out.

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        PhilJourdan

        It is no longer a euphemism. When government says “investment” it means redistribution. From your pocket to their favorites. It has nothing to do with the business “investment”.

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    Popeye26

    Gina (whatever – who cares)

    First sentence: “This is not about pollution control….”

    Next paragraph: “……..reduce carbon pollution” McCarthy added.

    Que – am I missing something here??

    Cheers,

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    • #
      Roy Hogue

      KK,

      She did let the same cat out of the same bag as nearly every other left winger out there. As I said, it means control of the people and being able to spend even more money to do it. They will bankrupt you with restrictions and paperwork without blinking an eye. At least until so many of the wheels of society stop turning that they can’t keep going anymore. But by then it will be every man for himself.

      Carbon pollution is an excuse, not a reason. :-)

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        Roy Hogue

        How did I get KK out of Popeye?

        My sincere apology.

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          KinkyKeith

          No problem Roy.

          We do look alike.

          The Real KK

          50

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            Popeye26

            Yeah – we do look “sort” of similar except I look like I’ve just finished something to eat.

            Don’t know about KK though? :-)

            Cheers,

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            Popeye26

            Intimate moment – perhaps? :-)

            Cheers,

            10

            • #
              Roy Hogue

              I even read Popeye26 but then when I started typing the avatar was what I saw in my head.

              Cheers to both you and KK.

              Roy

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                KinkyKeith

                And cheers from Falls Church Va

                KK

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              • #
                Popeye26

                KK

                Wow – Falls Church Va – is this home for you?

                I did live in Virginia Beach for about a year in the 80′s – absolutely loved the entire area around there including Richmond et al.

                You’ll be heading into winter soon – our days getting longer here in Aust.

                Hope you’re winter’s not as cold as the last BUT with the REALLY quiet sun I very much doubt it – stay warm.

                Cheers,

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                KinkyKeith

                Hi Popeye

                I wont see winter here; just visiting for another week and then back to Newcastle.

                Relative whom we are visiting says last winter saw snow cover the cars.

                KK

                10

              • #
                Popeye26

                KK

                Enjoy your last week – sad to leave maybe I guess but great to be heading home.

                Cheers,

                10

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                PhilJourdan

                Falls Church? That is a postage stamp in the DC Beltway! You are a brave man to reside there.

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              • #
                Roy Hogue

                KK,

                The time to visit Virginia is in the spring when the dogwood trees and azaleas are in bloom. I’ve never seen anything like it. Picture a paint factory blowing up and scattering different colors all over the landscape. Then multiply that by some large number.

                There’s nothing I know of that it doesn’t beat by any measure of comparison.

                You’re within an easy drive of DC where there are many things to see.

                But do remember to stay on the righthand side of the road. ;-)

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                KinkyKeith

                OK Phil you got me.

                Is it the traffic or something else?

                We hired a car the other day to go to Ocean City MD and had a tire blow out on the expressway just in the centre of Washington.

                Scareiest thing of my life – stuck in the middle of nowhere . Nobody could understand my Australian accent first time round but eventually we got back home and cancelled the trip.

                Using rail now and went out to Boyds near Germantown the next day and into Washington today .

                KK

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              • #
                KinkyKeith

                Hi Roy

                After the blowout mentioned above my driving career in the US is over for now.

                Staying in the right lane needs a bit more practice in the back streets than I can give it this time round so we go by rail and taxi now.

                We saw a copy of the Magna Carta in the National Archives this morning ; could hardly pick out the print detail it was so small and being old English it would have been undecipherable any how.

                Walked past the spy museum I think you mentioned?

                KK

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              • #
                Mark D.

                KK, Happy that you are here in the States! Wish you were visiting an area with better sanitation than DC but politicians are a constant source of effluent. Maybe next time we can find you additional better places to see eh?

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              • #
                KinkyKeith

                Hello Mark

                In 2009 we went to New York for nine days and were very impressed.

                It was like being in Australia back in the early sixties when our lives were based on “common sense”.

                We were also right in the centre of NY next to central park and have to concede that other ares of the city may not have been as relaxed, safe or filled with the sort of decent pleasant people who made our visit so enjoyable.

                Look forward to more trips to the US if time age and cash issues don’t get in the way.

                KK

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                Mark D.

                KK

                I’m not the big city type although I’ve been to DC back when Regan was President. It has a lot of fine things to see and if you haven’t already been to Arlington National Cemetery I’d encourage you to get there if you have time. I didn’t imagine how moving a cemetery tour could be til I was there. Positively a high point for me in all the places I visited in DC.

                For your next visit I can offer some outback ideas in the upper Midwest if you still have time, youth and don’t worry about cash! Your money is good here all the time :)

                PS I should have been more compassionate regarding the flat. That would be a tense time. I hope it is something you can convert to a happy memory to add to all your stories about this trip.

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                KinkyKeith

                Hi Mark

                The flat.

                The main thing there was that we didn’t get rear ended or hit while trying to get to an off ramp. Also I will always have a mobile phone in any country I go to in the future.

                After trying to find a public phone we eventually flagged down a police captain and he sorted us out.

                Many thanks to Washington police.

                Upper mid west. Is that near Indiana where Straight No Chaser come from?

                KK

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                PhilJourdan

                There’s nothing I know of that it doesn’t beat by any measure of comparison.

                Try the Blue Ridge Mountains (foot hills for you Rocky Mountain folks) in October. Spring is good, but the changing of the leaves is awe inspiring!

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                PhilJourdan

                Is it the traffic or something else?

                KK – you had the unfortunate experience of the bad part. Yes, the traffic. I guess traffic is bad in other places, but other places seem to have better drivers.

                In the rest of Virginia, very few people venture north of Stafford county because of it. For those that have to work in it, I guess they love it. But the rest of us do not.

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              • #
                Roy Hogue

                KK,

                Unfortunate thing, that blowout. There’s nothing like car trouble to put a damper on an otherwise good day.

                I can only picture the trouble I would have trying to drive in Australia. The side of the road that represents safety gets so automatic I haven’t had to think about it at any time in my life. The “right” side is automatic as you grow up and isn’t something you have to learn when you start driving instruction. So even when I see cars on the left side in a foreign movie it makes me edgy.

                Do enjoy your stay here. U.S. hospitality is mostly great in spite of trouble understanding your accent. And if you’re ever on the west coast look me up.

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              • #
                Roy Hogue

                Phil,

                Yes, I remember New England in the fall — whole large tracts of woods in yellow, gold, orange and red. I drove all over, everywhere I could think of to go after I bought a car about 3 months before my discharge from the army in December of 1964. But between the two I’ll still take the dogwood and azaleas in the spring.

                Actually though, the fall colors are a real close second. I could go for either one without much urging.

                I remember the fireflies in Virginia too — eerie but at the same time, simply entrancing to a west coast boy who’d never seen them before. There was a small patch of woods near my motel and I would go out walking there just before sunset to watch the fireflies come out to do their dance. And then after about 30 minutes, as if by some prearranged signal that only they could detect, they were all gone again or at least not lighting up anymore, thus, invisible in the darkness.

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              • #
                KinkyKeith

                Hello Roy

                Yes. The people here are very hospitable.

                We are amazed at the amount of open space between roads and houses etc allocated here to trees.

                I can recognise what appear to be cedars, pines and maple but there is one with a nut in the shape of a spinning top about 5/8ths of an inch dia. Dappled body with green top?

                Oak?

                KK

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              • #
                Mark D.

                KK, That does sound like an acorn (nut) from oak. There are many different oaks with different shape/size acorns. Most (maybe all) are edible and many animals rely on them for sustenance (they are very bitter and require preparation for human consumption).

                Indiana is included in the upper mid-west but the term mid-west may not have a concrete definition either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Midwest

                I think of it as Great Lakes States and Westward to the Dakotas.

                I am familiar with “Straight No Chaser” and I believe they started at Indiana University Good harmony.

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                PhilJourdan

                @Roy – I will not argue the difference. It is a matter of taste. As I was born in the fall, it was always the best time for me due to the celebration of my birthday, and that is why I always look at the fall as being the most beautiful (it was “my” time).

                But the spring is as beautiful, and the aftermath usually more pleasant (green trees beat brown ones).

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    handjive

    Don’t Panic.

    Money men tally cost of climate change

    “The report was commissioned the Risky Business Project, which describes itself as non-partisan and is chaired by former New York City Mayor Michael R Bloomberg, former Treasury Secretary Henry M Paulson, Jr and Thomas F Steyer, a former hedge fund manager.

    Among the predictions: Between $66 billion and $106 billion in costal property will likely be below sea level by 2050.”

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    • #
      bobl

      Hmm, and I’m sure those Billionaires that own that property don’t have 1 or 2 Billion that could be put into building a sea wall three bricks high…. I always chuckle when they roll out those stats.

      I like to make the point that we Injuneers have tools for such situations, they’re called “Piles of dirt” and “rocks”.

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        Rereke Whakaaro

        I keep on making this point regarding sea level rise:

        The area of the earth’s oceans is 361.8 million square metres.

        Thus, for every centimenter rise in mean sea level, an additional 3.6 million cubic metres of water has to be found. Where is that water supposed to come from?

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          bobl

          Expansion, however piles of dirt and rocks do a good job of holding that bavk, and 3 bricks high of sea rise doesn’t seem an insurmountable challenge to me, a few sand dunes will settle that battle.

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    tom0mason

    .
    McCarthy said EPA expects people to see lower energy bills “because we’re getting waste out of the system.”

    I believe one method that will be attempted (though in the long term it will fail) will be by reducing/removing the reliable, fossil fueled, contigency and back-up generating plants.
    Most lefties I have read and met view these power plants, especially the rolling reserve as a big waste of resources. This will immediately get money into the politco hands where it is used to glad-hand to the voting sheeple. Unfortunately it will sow the seeds of an evermore unstable grid system. Which is precisely what they (the malthusian leftards) want.

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    Mark D.

    it really is an investment opportunity. This is not about pollution control.

    Well fine! then the EPA is out of it’s jurisdiction. The EPA can now move on to some other REAL pollution.

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      DT

      I keep asking why the Australian extremist Greens do not report “the big polluters” they keep referring to, and how those polluters have escaped compulsory audits.

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    DT

    Is she from the Communist McCarthy Family circa 1950s?

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  • #
    pat

    CAGW is threatening to end civilisation as we know it! LOL:

    26 July: Bloomberg: Julia Mengewein: German Utilities Bail Out Electric Grid at Wind’s Mercy
    Germany’s push toward renewable energy is causing so many drops and surges from wind and solar power that the government is paying more utilities than ever to help stabilize the country’s electricity grid.
    Twenty power companies including Germany’s biggest utilities, EON SE and RWE AG, now get fees for pledging to add or cut electricity within seconds to keep the power system stable, double the number in September, according to data from the nation’s four grid operators. Utilities that sign up to the 800 million-euro ($1.1 billion) balancing market can be paid as much as 400 times wholesale electricity prices, the data show…
    Germany’s drive to almost double power output from renewables by 2035 has seen one operator reporting five times as many potential disruptions as four years ago, raising the risk of blackouts in Europe’s biggest electricity market while pushing wholesale prices to a nine-year low. More utilities are joining the balancing market as weak prices have cut operating margins to 5 percent on average from 15 percent in 2004, with RWE reporting its first annual loss since 1949…
    In Germany’s daily and weekly balancing market auctions, winning bidders have been paid as much as 13,922 euros to set aside one megawatt depending on the time of day, grid data show. Participants stand ready to provide power or cut output in notice periods of 15 minutes, 5 minutes or 30 seconds, earning fees whether their services are needed or not…
    RWE’s lignite generators, which have a total capacity of 10,291 megawatts, are flexible enough to cut or increase output by 5,000 megawatts on a sunny day, when power from solar panels floods the grid or supply vanishes as skies turn cloudy, according to Ulrich Hartmann, an executive board member at RWE’s generation unit.
    “Back in the days, our lignite plants were inflexible, produced power around the clock and were always earning money,”Hartmann in Bergheim, Germany, said in a July 9 interview. “Now they are as flexible as gas plants.”
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-24/german-utilities-bail-out-electric-grid-at-wind-s-mercy.html

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    pat

    28 July: The Hill: Timothy Cama: Power outage forces EPA to move climate hearing
    Opponents of the Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) proposed rules to reduce power plant carbon emissions are mocking the agency after power outages caused a hearing on the rules to be moved.
    The EPA announced late Friday that its two-day hearing scheduled for Tuesday and Wednesday at Atlanta’s major federal office building would be moved to a hotel due to “a large scale power outage” at the building…
    “This significant power outage is either cruel irony or a glimpse of a coming cruel reality if the Obama administration and the EPA are successful in their quest to end the use of affordable, reliable coal,” Laura Sheehan, a spokeswoman for the American Coalition for Clean Coal Electricity, said in a statement.
    The coal group accused the Obama administration of “regulating American coal-based electricity out of existence,” and said officials should instead work to encourage technology that makes coal use cleaner.
    In a blog post about the power outages, the Chamber of Commerce warned that the news wasn’t satire: “This is not a story from The Onion…
    The EPA said it was moving the hearing as a precaution and the outages at the federal building had nothing to do with the electrical grid…
    An electrical problem caused power outages in the Atlanta federal building, which spurred officials to close the structure for most of last week, according to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. It reopened Monday morning…
    http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/213485-climate-rule-opponents-mock-epa-after-atlanta-hearing-moved

    27 July: ;Tribune Review: David Conti: Observers mixed on grid backup amid carbon rules, natural gas uncertainty
    If the electrical grid that powers the United States encounters a supply problem, the easiest solution takes five years.
    That’s the minimum time it takes to build a large, natural gas-fired generation station, from siting to lining up investors, permitting and constructing…
    Some leaders and observers worry that a spike in demand, accelerated retirements of coal-fired plants pinched by new carbon rules, and the shuttering of more nuclear reactors could lead to grid failures and expensive utility bills in the next five to 10 years.
    “There is a coming storm as demand keeps going up,” said David Holt, president of the Houston-based Consumer Energy Alliance, which advocates for energy users.
    Some of the disagreement about what should power the grid comes from economic and regulatory uncertainties. Experts assume more coal plants will close — and almost none will be built — because of Environmental Protection Agency emissions rules such as those opening to public comment this week in Pittsburgh…
    “A lot of challenges” await the grid, including the integration of renewable energy sources such as wind and solar, Moniz said. The Energy Information Administration predicts a big increase in that sector, but its low efficiency means it can’t be a baseload provider.
    “Wind and solar aren’t there yet,” Holt said…
    Protecting the grid
    That leaves coal as the most reliable source, Murphy and others say. He said the United States should invest more money in finding ways to burn it more efficiently to meet emissions standards.
    The Energy Information Administration predicts reliance on coal to produce electricity will decrease about 16 percent by 2020, but it will remain the dominant fuel until at least 2034…
    http://triblive.com/state/pennsylvania/6486014-74/grid-energy-gas#axzz38rPpiYId

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    pat

    28 July: JournalReview: AP: Not in my backyard: US sending dirty coal abroad
    By 2020, coal will no longer be burned at the 38-year-old power plant (Boardman Coal Plant, Oregon), replaced by cleaner-burning natural gas…
    But 12 miles north, a port on the Columbia River could represent the region’s coal future.
    If all goes according to plan for global energy conglomerate Ambre Energy Ltd., coal mined from the Powder River Basin in Montana and Wyoming will still arrive in Boardman by train car. But instead of feeding the coal plant, it would be shipped to Asia, where an energy-hungry populace is reliant on coal as a cheap power source…
    This town in the Columbia Gorge is a real-life example of the gulf between Obama’s grand strategy to reduce coal emissions and the reality behind that policy: As the U.S. reduces its own carbon pollution, it is exporting more of it abroad.
    Built in 1976, the Boardman Coal Plant burns about 3 million tons of coal each year. The Port of Morrow terminal would ship three times more — nearly 9 million tons — out of the country.
    Those extra 6 million tons of thermal coal will generate energy somewhere, its carbon emissions joining the same atmosphere…
    Over the last five years, as the U.S. has cut coal consumption by 195 million tons, about 20 percent of that coal has been shipped overseas, according to an analysis by The Associated Press of Energy Department data. That proportion is expected to get larger as the U.S. continues to clean up its power plants, boost energy efficiency and move to more pollution-free sources of energy such as wind and solar.
    For the Northwest, proposed coal terminals would export more than 100 million tons of coal to Asia per year, far exceeding the total consumption for all plants that feed coal-fired power to the region, including Oregon, and doubling U.S. exports.
    “If we’re trying to address carbon and we’re creating a whole new export industry, I think that is problematic,” said Citizens Utility Board of Oregon executive director Bob Jenks. “There’s a fundamental disconnect between trying to reduce carbon emissions and creating new industries around coal.”…
    Despite requests from Oregon’s Democratic Gov. John Kitzhaber to evaluate the full environmental consequences of the export terminal proposed here, including the emissions released in Asia from U.S. coal, the Obama administration has decided to analyze only the carbon released in the U.S…
    Meanwhile, the coal exported will result in nearly 51 million tons of emissions…
    http://www.journalreview.com/news/article_13a40e40-c2e1-5a8f-896d-6c5035f347a0.html

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      bobl

      I love it Pat. The US is actually planning to make its Power ten times as as expensive AND send the Coal to China so that a communist foreign power can make electricity at 1/10th the price of the USAs fandangled renewabubble stuff. Yup, Insanity has arrived… at Washington DC

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      pat says here:

      Over the last five years, as the U.S. has cut coal consumption by 195 million tons…..

      Wel I suppose it’s close, but again it does not tell the true story here.

      It’s actually only 181 Million tons, so I suppose here, they umm, just round it up eh, and incidentally, the freezing Winter just passed during the U.S. has seen coal consumption rise, and you may think, here’s Tony painting a picture where any tiny rise is construed as a big thing, but hey, the rise is 20 Million tons over just 6 Months so far, so that 190 million ton fall in coal consumption is now down to only 160 Million tons actual, so here we have an almost 20% error.

      However, as I have said, that fall in coal consumption hides a different story.

      Actual Power generation from coal fired sources has fallen by 170TWh. I have said that these old (most ancient, aged from 50 to 80 years) and small to tiny coal fired plants have shut down, replaced in more than their totality by Natural Gas fired power.

      Natural Gas fired power generation has risen over that same period by 231 TWh, so that’s 60TWh difference.

      Now you may think 60TWh is no real big thing, but that’s a quarter of all power generation in Australia from every source.

      Coal fired power is not being replaced by renewables at all. It’s being replaced by NG plants. So where you read that renewable power is leading to the closure of coal fired power plants, well that’s just an OUTRIGHT lie.

      By the way, that Boardman Plant has one 600MW unit and delivers around 4.4TWh of power each year at a Capacity Factor of 82%. Read carefully because the plant is not scheduled to close until 2020, so they’ll get a further 6 years power delivery out of it, and for perspective an equivalent Nameplate Wind Plant of 600MW will take almost 17 years to deliver that same amount of power. Boardman will just keep humming alone until they turn it off, after 40 years of operation, first opening in 1980, a life span wind power can only dream of.

      Tony.

      Source – EIA

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        janama

        Tony – I’m currently in Europe and the other night I was chatting with a Dutchman in my Cologne Hotel Bar. Turns out he runs a company that distributes power in Europe, poles and wires. So I suggested that “his job is trying to control all the fluctuating power coming from all the wind turbines and solar panels and syncing them into the system” – he smiled and said – “you got it in one!” – I suggested “it was a joke”, he smiled and agreed. “It’s a total disaster” he confirmed, “but try and tell that to the politicians”.

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        • #
          the Griss

          I wonder which country will be the first to suffer a major grid collapse because of all these random feed-ins.

          A major country going a few days without power as they try to re-sync the grid would surely put an end to all this rubbish !!

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          • #
            JLC

            It might be a race between Germany and the UK.

            I hope it won’t happen to either country — or any other — but it seems that politicians will not see the problems of green power until a catastrophe occurs.

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    pat

    ***try imagining ABC/Fairfax/Guardian/Conversation calling out Obama!

    28 July: TVNZ: AP: US coal exports help Germany increase pollution
    US exports of power plant-grade coal to Germany have more than doubled since 2008. In 2013, Germany ranked fifth, behind the United Kingdom, Netherlands, South Korea and Italy in imports of US steam coal, the type burned in power plants.
    On the American side of the pollution ledger, this fossil fuel trade helps the US look as if it is making more progress on global warming than it actually is…
    ***Activists put some of the blame on the US and President Barack Obama.
    “This is a classic case of political greenwashing,” said Dirk Jansen, a spokesman for BUND, a German environmental group. “Obama pretties up his own climate balance, but it doesn’t help the global climate at all if Obama’s carbon dioxide is coming out of chimneys in Germany.”…
    Still, Germany has built five new coal plants since 2008, adding 4,286 megawatts of new generation, according to Bundesnetzagentur, the grid supervisor…
    But the US and other countries have no problem supplying Germany and the world with coal. Last year, US coal exports totaled $11 billion in revenue.
    http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/us-coal-exports-help-germany-increase-pollution-6039739

    read the following, but wanted to highlight the absolute hilarity of using Germany’s Deutsche Bank as an example!

    28 July: ABC Rural: Australia’s largest coal mine will fund artesian scheme
    by Craig Zonca and Cassie Hough
    However, Greenpeace program director Ben Pearson isn’t satisfied with the level of conditions.
    “A mine like this is an absolute monster.”…
    Mr Pearson says Greenpeace will be calling on banks to stop being involved in projects that could damage the Great Barrier Reef.
    “The big four Australian banks need to step away from projects in Queensland that will damage the Great Barrier Reef, as international banks such as Deutsche Bank have done.”
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-28/carmichael-mine-approved/5629204

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    pat

    note the headline’s “Environmentalists” plural, yet in the transcript it comes down to a single Greens Senator!

    28 July: ABC PM: Jake Sturmer: Environmentalists concerned about go-ahead of Qld coal mine
    Greens Senator Larissa Waters:
    LARISSA WATERS: This is just an atrocity. Anyone who took climate change seriously would not have approved this mine, and the approval of this mine is an indictment on the Abbott Government.
    They just don’t get climate change and they are sadly dooming places like the Great Barrier Reef and dooming the future of our children by approving this biggest coal mine that Australia’s ever seen
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-28/environmentalists-concerned-about-go-ahead-of-qld/5630198?section=business

    29 July: ABC: Greg Hunt says green-lighted Galilee Basin coal mine won’t have big impact on Great Barrier Reef
    By political reporter Karen Barlow and Stephanie Smail
    Groups were less concerned about mine’s predecessor: Hunt
    Mr Hunt says the mine’s predecessor, the Alpha Mine, was approved by Labor state and federal governments and he says environmental groups were less critical then.
    “I think all that was said by Greenpeace was ‘unfortunate’, so it appears there is one rule for a Labor decision another rule for a Coalition Government decision,” he said…
    Mr Roche (Queensland Resources Council) says there is plenty of demand for thermal coal so the future of the Carmichael Mine is promising.
    “Between now and 2030, India will be demanding an extra 290 million tonnes of coal. China over 300 million tonnes,” he said.
    “In total, just in Asia, the demand for thermal coal will grow by nearly 800 million tonnes.”
    Carmichael Coal and Rail Project has been described by environmentalists as a “carbon bomb”, as its future products contribute to global warming.
    But Mr Hunt says, if the Carmichael Mine goes ahead, he will not have to revise Australia’s greenhouse gas emissions targets…
    “We are about reducing emissions in Australia. That was our task and our target, to achieve our reductions.
    ****”In terms of overseas, what we have to do is work towards a good, global agreement and I think that is exactly what we will do.”
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-29/greg-hunt-hits-back-at-criticism-over-massive-coal-mine/5631210

    ****why is Hunt still talking such rubbish?

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    Don B

    In view of Gina’s testimony, it is time to review the 2007 US Supreme Court ruling which gave the EPA the duty to regulate CO2, because it was an “air pollutant”. In this case of Massachusetts vs. EPA, it is my sense that the EPA didn’t fight too hard.

    From the SCOTUS syllabus of the case:

    “The harms associated with climate change are serious and well recognized. The Government’s own objective assessment of the relevant science and a strong consensus among qualified experts indicate that global warming threatens, inter alia, a precipitate rise in sea levels, severe and irreversible changes to natural ecosystems, a significant reduction in winter snowpack with direct and important economic consequences, and increases in the spread of disease and the ferocity of weather events.”

    http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/06pdf/05-1120.pdf

    Competent scientists could destroy that paragraph, point by point.

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    ROM

    Off Topic but very, very relevant in the Australian context and the Australian summer climate and environment.

    And an aspect of wind turbines that is never commented on here in Australia and no doubt deliberately so. But should be regarded with the deepest concern by every politician, every emergency service organisation and every SE Australian citizen.

    *********************
    From the German NoTricksZone blog

    Engineering Magazine: “Underestimated Danger: Every Month Ten Wind Turbines Get Destroyed by Fire”!

    [quoted ]
    Never has such a lousy product been given so many free passes: wind turbines. Yes, they are lousy products – sorry!

    In a free market, where poorly performing products get knocked out rapidly, wind turbines still can’t hold a candle to regular power plants. They only survive because of subsidies, and exorbitantly rosy promises.

    [ Burning wind turbine pic ]

    Germany’s online engineering magazine Ingenieur.de here writes a short, but damning piece on wind turbine performance and reliability. Hat tip: Wolfgang Neumann at FaceBook. Ingenieur.de writes:

    Lightening strikes, damage to power cable insulation, overheated gear-drives: Every month on average 10 wind turbines are destroyed by fire the British elite university Imperial College has found out in a study.” [...]

    Scientist Guillermo Rein of the Imperial College emphasizes that the risk of fire has been played down many times. Worldwide on average only 1 wind turbine fire per month is made public.
    However, in fact the real figure is ten wind turbine fires on average according to investigations by the university.

    [ My comment ;This attitude of just straight out lies and deliberate dis-information propaganda by the wind industry scammers on just about every aspect of wind power seems to be par for the course in every country where the scammers have been allowed and encouraged to set up shop. ]

    No matter how you calculate it, wind energy is terrible. Even the most amateur of engineers are able to appreciate the ultra harsh conditions that wind turbines must inherently withstand just due to their design and siting. The power generation unit is far above ground level and gets subjected to forces and conditions that way beyond anything conventional power plants situated in buildings at ground level are exposed to.

    Then there’s the trend to put them offshore where conditions are even far more violent and menacing. Only one conclusion can be drawn on the wind turbine concept: the contraptions are impractical. It’s tantamount to using 500 laborers to do the job of a single Caterpillar excavator.

    It boils down to the simple economic logic: Wouldn’t it just make much more sense to replace all these little bicycle generators, which are propped up on sticks hundreds of feet above ground way out in the hicks, with a single big one that’s at ground level (where fires at least can be fought), is easy to maintain, and can run continuously?

    Ingenier.de writes that the fires often result in “total damage” to the wind turbine and that especially offshore turbine fires “lead to considerable damage to investors”.

    Gradually the public is getting the picture that this wind energy idea is turning into a megaflop, one that reminds us of early airplane designs with flapping wings. Wind turbine producers sure have taken governments and consumers to the cleaners – to the tune of hundreds of billions. The public was sucked into buying a real lemon.

    As a solution to the burning problem, experts are calling for “improved materials”.

    Firemen unable to even get near the fire

    When a fire does break out, Ingenieur.de reports that firemen can’t even get close to the fire because the turbines are so high above ground. And even if they could there’s an acute danger from falling parts and rotors, and so they refuse to get anywhere near the damn thing! All they can do is watch the contraption burn down.

    Overall Guillermo Rein, Department of Mechanical Engineering, Imperial College, calls the results of the study “serious”.

    Sounds like a nail in the coffin of a dumb idea that needs to be buried sooner than later.

    Oh, there’s more. Rein will soon be publishing the results of a risk study that looks at solar energy. Get the popcorn ready.

    [end ]

    _____________________

    As i have posted previously; The wind industry scammers should be mandatorily required to have some billions of dollars of insurance to cover every fire contingency that may result from their turbines catching fire and consequently devastating large parts of our countryside.
    If deaths result as consequence of a wind turbine fire, the wind turbine company executives and boards should face charges of manslaughter and death through negligence charges with long jail terms as a consequence of a guilty verdict.

    Again if politicians or any of their advisers read this please think of those who will be forced to fight those terrible fires and the deaths amongst the rural and country people when , not IF those fires occur.
    It most certainly WON’T be the wind turbine company executives or their big investors.

    It will be the country folk, the unpaid volunteer firefighters who never wanted those damn turbines in any case that you, the politicians, foisted onto the rural and country folk regardless of our wishes or the realities of the utter impotence of grossly expensive and grossly inefficient wind turbines to make any semblence of difference to the climate either local or global.

    If you want wind turbines build the damn things in Toorak or along the shores of Pt Phillip Bay or along the shores and headlands of Sydney Harbor or in the Adelaide Hills overlooking the city and on the Glenelg foreshore where the green watermelons latte sippers reside and demand their renewable energy.

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    ROM

    More !

    Imperial College
    London

    Fires are major cause of wind farm failure, according to new research
    [ 17th July 2014 ]

    [quoted ]

    Fire is the second leading cause of accidents in wind turbines, after blade failure, according to research out today.

    Wind farming is one of the leading industries in the renewable energy sector. However, the industry faces a number of challenges, such as opposition by wind farm lobbyists. Today’s research suggests that incidents of wind turbines catching fire are a big problem that is not currently being fully reported.

    Researchers from Imperial College London, the University of Edinburgh and SP Technical Research Institute of Sweden carried out a global assessment of the world’s wind farms, which in total contain an estimated 200,000 turbines.

    Comparing the only data available, the team estimate that ten times more fires are happening than are being reported. Instead of an average of 11.7 fires each year, which is what is reported publicly, the researchers estimate that more than 117 separate fires are breaking out in turbines annually.

    By comparison, with other energy industries, fire accidents are much less frequent in wind turbines than other sectors such as oil and gas, which globally has thousands of fire accidents per year. However, fire accidents can have a considerable economic impact on the wind farm industry, say the team. Each wind turbine costs in excess of £2 million and generates an estimated income of more than £500,000 per year. Any loss or downtime of these valuable assets makes the industry less viable and productive.
    &
    Wind turbines catch fire because highly flammable materials such as hydraulic oil and plastics are in close proximity to machinery and electrical wires. These can ignite a fire if they overheat or are faulty. Lots of oxygen, in the form of high winds, can quickly fan a fire inside a turbine. Once ignited, the chances of fighting the blaze are slim due to the height of the wind turbine and the remote locations that they are often in.

    Since the 1980s, when wind farms were first constructed, the team found that fire has accounted for 10 to 30 per cent of reported turbine accidents. In 90 per cent of the cases, the fire either leads to substantial downtime or a total loss of the wind turbine, resulting in economic losses.

    The researchers also outline the main causes of fire ignition in wind turbines in the study. They are, in decreasing order of importance: lightning strike, electrical malfunction, mechanical failure, and errors with maintenance.

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      (Borrowing from my comments on Facebook yesterday)

      The article says:

      Wind turbines catch fire because highly flammable materials such as hydraulic oil and plastics are in close proximity to machinery and electrical wires. These can ignite a fire if they overheat or are faulty. Lots of oxygen, in the form of high winds, can quickly fan a fire inside a turbine. Once ignited, the chances of fighting the blaze are slim due to the height of the wind turbine and the remote locations that they are often in.

      That’s odd. Commercial airliners don’t catch fire at anywhere near that rate. Also, I looked under the engine compartment lid of my car and there’s lots of flammable liquids, plastics and VERY hot machinery in the form of exhaust manifolds, etc

      The rate of 117/month out of a population of 200,000 means that 7 out of every 1000 are being destroyed by catastrophic fire every year. What some would call a “good start”, seconding the meme of old lawyer jokes.

      That rate of “stuff” catching fire should be simply unacceptable nowadays. We don’t hear about 600 cars catching fire every month in Western Australia. We don’t see 7 out of 1000 airliners falling out of the sky every year, having caught fire.

      What we have in “wind turbines” is a protected industry; sheltered workshops because they are politically favoured and “whatever it takes” is an acceptable approach to their “design”, manufacture and construction. Manufacturers know of the risks but deliberately omit installing fire-suppression systems except where the turbines are to be installed in sensitive areas.

      The article’s comparison “with other energy industries, fire accidents are much less frequent in wind turbines than other sectors such as oil and gas, which globally has thousands of fire accidents per year.” is STUPID and only a fool would fall for it. Oil and gas industries produce a million times as much useful energy for people to use, when they need it.

      ISTM that the environment is the last thing on the minds of the manufacturers and promoters; they’re after the subsidies, paid out of the pockets of hapless taxpayers and electricity grid consumers. The innocent people who don’t want more flammable and intermittent power generating facilities.

      P.S: The way the researchers at Imperial College deal with “data” appears haphazard; even to the numpties in the green industrial complex.

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        Yonniestone

        Very good comparison Bernd :)

        An old mechanical engineer I knew would refer to older designed machines reinvented in a poor manner as “Asshat technology”

        The same asshat’s have probably designed a fire extinguisher that catches alight.

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          KinkyKeith

          Thanks for bringing Bernd’s great comment to notice.

          Well worth the read.

          Thanks Bernd.

          KK

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      janama

      On the weekend I drove from Cologne to Paris. (approx 300km) There were wind turbines scattered everywhere along the route but on that particular day none were turning. Occasionally there were a group of around 10 with only 2 turning very slowly – I assume they are in fact drawing power to keep their bearings lubricated after hours of being stationary, as they do.

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      Wayne Job

      The pushers of wind and solar reside in our capitol cities. My plan would be to give them what they want, festoon all high rise buildings with wind generators and solar panels, turn off all incoming power from power plants and leave the rest of us to suffer the dirty power plants. Then I would wish them good luck on running the trains.

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    Skiphil

    Can anyone anywhere truly believe that all these cannot figure out how to improve their businesses, maximize investment returns, etc., and that they need ignorant govt. bureaucrats like Gina McCarthy to tell them what to??

    It is one kind of argument to say that regulation is for safety etc. but since when is a govt. able to force companies to better execute their own investments?.

    This tripe is reminiscent of the Rousseau-Marx-Lenin-Mao tradition which says that people must be “forced to be free.”

    because, of course, people cannot figure out their own freedoms or their own corporate investments without govt. officials to dictate.

    Yeah, right, “forced to be profitable”….. has that ever worked anywhere?? (well only when corruption provides the “profits”)

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      Skiphil

      the first sentence was supposed to say “all these companies”

      as in:

      “Can anyone anywhere truly believe that all these companies cannot figure out how to improve their businesses, maximize investment returns, etc., and that they need ignorant govt. bureaucrats like Gina McCarthy to tell them what to??”

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    pat

    the shambolic ABC:

    ***”Mr Seeney says most of the work conducted by the state’s coordinator general was actually completed while Labor still had power in Queensland”:

    5 June 2012: ABC World Today: Sabra Lane: Qld Alpha project assessment ‘shambolic joke’: Burke
    SABRA LANE: Mr Burke says the companies behind the project are now dealing directly with his department about what work needs to be done, to ensure the environmental assessment is thorough, and beyond doubt.
    He hopes a final decision can be made before the end of the year…
    The state’s Deputy Premier, Jeff Seeney.
    JEFF SEENEY: That the actions of the Federal Minister Tony Burke last week were unbecoming of a federal minister…
    They would be unbecoming of any politician who was concerned about the future of Queensland and concerned about the future of Australia.
    ***SABRA LANE: Mr Seeney says most of the work conducted by the state’s coordinator general was actually completed while Labor still had power in Queensland.
    http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2012/s3518454.htm

    no mention of CAGW, no CAGW activists quoted, one Conservation spokeswoman quoted who doesn’t even refer to CAGW, but June’s SHAMBOLIC returns:

    23 Aug 2012: ABC PM: Stephanie Smail: Federal approval for controversial Queensland coal mine
    MARK COLVIN: …Among other things there were Federal claims that Queensland’s environmental assessment process was “shambolic”…
    STEPHANIE SMAIL: …Patricia Julien from the Mackay Conservation Group says it will be catastrophic for local plant and animal species…
    http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2012/s3574574.htm

    no mention of CAGW, no quotes from environmental activists:

    23 Aug 2012: ABC: $7bn Alpha coal mine gets approval
    Gina Rinehart’s multi-billion-dollar Alpha coal mine and rail project in central Queensland has been granted Federal Government approval.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-23/alpha-coal-mine-approval/4218112

    4 days later, on Lateline, re Alpha: you wouldn’t even know the Federal Labor Govt had approved the mine! it’s just an endless attack on the Qld Newman Govt by Tony Burke. no CAGW activists, no CAGW mentions, but SHAMBOLIC gets another run:

    27 Aug 2012: ABC Lateline: Qld wanted to lower environmental standards: Burke
    Emma Alberici: If we can start with the Alpha mine and rail project in Queensland, you called the state’s assessment procedure shambolic. In what way was it shambolic?
    http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3577180.htm

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      Not to worry. It’s the first of the month on Friday and the ABC get to play with another word of the month. They need to practice saying those words, even if they don’t know what they mean.

      To be more precise; it’s Tony Burke’s word of the month. I know that it’s hard to tell the ALP and ABC apart. In WA, there seems to be an ABC diarist crew following the leader of the (State) opposition around so almost every evening, we get to see “Mark: My Day” segments within the local ABC “news” bulletins throughout the day.

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      scaper...

      Yeah, those projects were amongst almost $200B in the too hard basket, left for Greg to clean up. I was having a chat to one of the heads of Hancock Coal last night at Ian Plimer’s book launch. I’ve known about something else for a few years concerning a certain project. This one will require minimum approvals and when it is known the watermelons will be having massive explosions.

      A good night, all the usual climate criminals were there wearing that badge of honour. The funniest thing for me was Ian said he drew his inspiration for the book whilst flying…sitting next to Sarah Hanson Young!

      If I was seated next to that drongo I would request to sit somewhere else. If not possible I’d sit out the flight in the toilet…a more fragrant atmosphere I should imagine.

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    Robin Day

    Gina McCarthy of the EPA should have been a character in George Orwell’s 1984:

    “Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

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    pat

    for those not familiar with the Great Artesian Basin:

    32 mins 42 secs: Video: Water Down Under – The Great Artesian Basin Story
    http://www.environment.gov.au/resource/water-down-under-great-artesian-basin-story

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      ianl8888

      Not good enough, Pat, I’m afraid

      People need to understand the geology first. It is simple enough, but without that simple understanding, disingenuous propaganda through the MSM will prevail

      Since I’m well aware that geological “lectures” are awarded yawns on this website, I’ll simply point out that even the unreliable Wiki has some useful information (albeit deliberately vague and without any useful cross-sections)

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    Robin Day

    On a more serious note, an agency of the U.S. State Department, the Consultative Group on Biological Diversity (CGBD), an umbrella organization created in 1987 by the U.S. Agency for International Development, has a primary focus on climate and energy-related issues and operates like an industry association for environmental funders, a back-office think-tank and collaboration hub. Membership is by invitation only. As of 2012, the CGBD’s 60 member foundations had more than US$50 billion in assets and combined annual expenditures of over US$3 billion. The member charities have been causing economic havoc in Canada:

    http://www.albertaoilmagazine.com/2014/07/vivian-krause-great-green-trade-barrier/

    Sadly, Australia has also been targeted, but not to the same extent, or perhaps it is just early?
    On a smaller scale, some American charitable foundations fund campaigns to thwart the development of fossil fuels in other parts of the world. For example, in October 2013, Tides paid US$10,000 to an Australian organization “to support a speaking tour and series of public forums in the Northern Territory which will kick-start the campaign to stop shale gas drilling.” The same organization, Lock the Gate Alliance, also received US$395,000 from Tides for unspecified purposes. Beware of U.S. charitable donations to radical Australian green organizations.

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      bobl

      On the other hand, “Lock the gate” is more concerned with the landowners inability to control the activities that occur on their freehold land, and that the gas miners are not required to acquire property on just terms or abide by the landowners terms on access. This is constitutionally wrong! If miners want to mine on a landowners property, they must Pay rent like anyone else, on the landowners terms, they must also meet any environmental terms the landowner sets (EG on organic farms) they should also be subject to being sued by the landowner if their activities damage the landowners interest, for example by making land saline, and the penalties should be multigenerational, that is compensation claimable for the current landowners, their children’s loss and their children’s childrens loss. A few 100 million dollar compensation orders will make damn sure they do it right! This is just capitalism at it’s best. I am very much in favour of landowners having equal power with the miners.

      The problem the Lock the Gate organisation is addressing is privacy, equity, protection of asset value, and just compensation for access to their private freehold properties.

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    pat

    not sure the headline means to say “ahead of Tony visit”, but it is cute nonetheless:

    29 July: Times of India: Australia nod to Adani’s mining project ahead of Tony visit
    NEW DELHI: With weeks to go before Prime Minister Tony Abbott makes his first visit to India, the Australian government has cleared a long-pending huge coal mining project by Gautam Adani, which could, according to reports, become the largest such venture in Australia.
    India and Australia are currently in the final stages of negotiating a civil nuclear agreement for supply of uranium for India’s civilian nuclear power sector, which may be ready for signing by the time Abbott arrives in India. Prime minister Narendra Modi is scheduled to visit Australia for the G-20 summit in Brisbane later this year.
    Indian company, Petronet, signed a 20-year deal in August 2009 to buy 1.44 million tonnes per annum of liquefied natural gas (LNG). With India getting ready to receive its first shipment of LNG from Gorgon terminal, Australia may become India’s most valuable partner for resources…
    Coal is likely to remain India’s primary fuel for some time to come. With local coal supplies in the doldrums, India’s imports of coal will only go up. According to Indian government estimates, India’s coal demand should rise by 6 per cent to 787 million tonnes in 2014, with imports taking up almost 200 million tonnes. But several factors — poor port and rail infrastructure and parlous condition of state electricity boards –make it difficult to translate the availability of coal to more power for Indians.
    Australian high commissioner to India Patrick Suckling says the Government’s decision to give a green light to the signature project shows that Australia welcomes foreign investment. “This outstanding project will drive economic growth and create more than 6,000 jobs in Australia. It will also boost India’s development by providing electricity to an estimated 100 million Indians,” Suckling said.
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Australia-nod-to-Adanis-mining-project-ahead-of-Tony-visit/articleshow/39189289.cms

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    dp

    It’s amazing how much of a lie you can catch them in when they’re caught off-guard telling the truth.

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    Ceetee

    Wake up Uncle Sam. You are asleep on the job. There are rats in the larder. What would anybody in the EPA know about ‘investment opportunities’ and real jobs?. The Greens over here in NZ tried to spin that one past us but only a lunatic few believe. A few more severe winters and energy poor lower and middle class families will really bring home the abject stupidity of it all. Of course by then it will be too late. Adequate and reliable energy supply takes sensible long term planning. Only maniacs would put it at risk. Of course all the usual suspects will be nowhere to be found when accountability is demanded.

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    William Astley

    McCarthy’s rhetoric is an example of political speak, fuzzy logic. The green scams do not work (cannot reduce CO2 emission more than about 10% to 15%, ignoring the cost issue, German electric power is three times more expensive than the US. Germany has reached the limit of the green scams. German CO2 emissions are now starting to increase.) as the green scams are intermittent power sources where the electrical power requirement of civilization is 24/7. That does not change regardless of many times the greens call those who bring facts and logic to the discussion deniers.

    If the greens were truly interested in reducing CO2 emissions they would push nuclear power and fourth generation nuclear power research. The political, fuzzy logic problem is the only thing the greens hate more than CO2 is nuclear power.

    The greens believe in the Aunty Mime principal (from the Wizard of Oz, US movie, not the down under continent). If you really believe in magic and repeat fuzzy logic rhetoric enough times all your friends will also believe what you have repeated and magic will happen.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooM-RGUTe2E
    P.S. Tapping your heels apparently also helps.

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    William Astley

    The following is a heads up to McCarthy as to how the US public would react to rolling power outages.
    P.S. McCarthy needs to be aware in the US there is an alternative the fuzzy logic blue party. See blue/green party’s fuzzy logic above, applies to all issues. The US blue party believes if only the government would spend more money all the US problems would disappear or at least those in power and their friends would do just fine. See Greece and Spain for a good example of fuzzy logic applied.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2012/05/pakistan%E2%80%99s-energy-crisis
    “Pakistan’s energy crisis
    Power politics
    SUMMER in the plains of Pakistan is excruciating enough without the added joy of 20 hours of power cuts a day. Earlier this month protesters in several towns in Punjab, Pakistan’s wealthiest province, smashed windscreens, blocked motorways, shut down markets and set fire to the offices of parliamentarians and an electric utility. They clashed with police who brought out handcuffs and tear gas and fired live rounds in the air.
    It was a reaction to electricity shortages that had plunged parts of the province into darkness and scorching heat. At one point the gap between supply and demand hit 7,500 megawatts (MW), or nearly 40% of national demand.
    But the disruption of lives and livelihoods may now have gone too far for the anger to confine itself to just one set of politicians. In the town of Vehari, rioters burned the offices of lawmakers belonging not only to a ruling coalition partner (which has threatened to quit the government over the issue), but also the PML-N and the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf, the party of Imran Khan, who positions himself as the country’s only hope for change.
    Pakistan’s politicians might find they need to start addressing this issue, not just politicising it.”

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    Greg Cavanagh

    I read two pages (approx 97 comments) and every person who comment thought she was nuts.

    So, she has demonstrated complete ineptitude in front of the senate. Now, what are they going to do about her?

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    Degüello

    “Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.” – George Washington

    “The mystery of government is not how Washington works but how to make it stop.” – P. J. O’Rourke

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    Tom O

    What you aren’t taking into consideration is how correct she is when she refers to more people will be in clean energy jobs. Of course, that may be the only thing that she said that is correct, but then again, with expensive and untrustworthy energy, more people will die off due to hypothermia, they will need smaller homes and appliances, and just maybe the demand for energy will go down as well. But who will they be selling all those 72″ flat screen, smart TVs to?

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