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The start of the end — Mainstream press says “Politicians go cold on global warming”

The Zeitgiest is shifting. The unthinkable is now thought, and in public.

Politicians go cold as global warming debate loses spark

From: The Times    July 23, 2013 12:00AM,   Reprinted in The Australian

Soon will come the time when everyone says “I always knew it was wrong”.

Tim Montgomerie notes the great backdown of  Kevin Rudd on the carbon tax and lays out the global carnage in the climate meme:

Throughout the world green politicians are presiding over similar climbdowns. From Washington to London, shale gas rather than any renewable technology is seen as the future. Even nations such as Germany and Spain, which led the march to green energy, are slashing unaffordable subsidies to the renewables industry. British Conservative Nigel Lawson has claimed that the average share price of companies in the renewable sector has fallen by 80 per cent over five years. “One renewable company after another is going bankrupt,” he declared. The heavy cost of green energy policies might have been justifiable if they had delivered results, but they haven’t. Since the Kyoto treaty on climate change, global emissions have continued to rise. Since 1990 they have increased by about 50 per cent. China’s increase in emissions has been 25 times greater than the reduction by the EU’s core nations. In so far as Europe has actually met its environmental obligations, it has only done so by exporting industrial capacity (and jobs). Once the environmental impact of imported goods has been added to its carbon footprint, Europe has clearly failed to keep its environmental promises.

One commentator, Bjorn Lomborg, spelt out the futility of Europe’s unilateral environmentalism. Germany’s efforts to combat climate change might, he calculated, just possibly delay a rise in global temperatures by 37 hours, but that delay will have cost German taxpayers and consumers more than $US100 billion in the form of renewable subsidies and higher electricity costs. That’s about $US3bn an hour.

Green enthusiasts are kidding themselves if they blame the global economic slump for the failure of climate change policies. Their policies were always an attempt to defy economic gravity.

Montgomerie’s description of Rudd is very short:

… in the past 10 days one of the greenest of green politicians has to all intents, constructions and purposes given up. Last week, Australia’s green movement suffered a defeat at least as big as those of the country’s cricket and rugby teams. Rudd announced he would ditch the carbon tax that had threatened to consign his Labor Party to one of the worst defeats in its history…

Some will argue that Rudd has shifted to a trading scheme which is what he always wanted, and he’s only brought it forward by a year. But everyone knows that the reason for the shift was not because it would be “better for the climate” to reduce the carbon-price by 70%. Even Rudd himself admits the shift was to reduce the cost of living pressures.

Priority number one is not the environment. (But don’t expect Rudd to say that).

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The start of the end -- Mainstream press says "Politicians go cold on global warming", 9.3 out of 10 based on 116 ratings

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189 comments to The start of the end — Mainstream press says “Politicians go cold on global warming”

  • #
    Fox from Melbourne

    If it doesn’t do what its advertised to do,stop a change in the globe climate and its to expensive, why waste the money trying to stop something when the money could be better spend adapting to the climate as it doses as it wishes. Like the people that live Darwin did after cyclone Tracy. If the climate change has already stopped 15 to 20 years ago then why would we need to move to a ETS from a Carbon Tax. Why has the Labor Greens party’s put all of us though this. Why have they taken 15 million plus tons of food out of the planetary food system. Food from the mouths of starving children and threatened and endangered species. For every ton of Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere eventually turns into 2 tons of food.
    Shame on them and shame on all the people that stood by and let them. At lest Skeptical minded people tried to do something. As they wasted Billions and destroyed peoples jobs and lively hoods. Under a ETS the price of Power and Gas will go up and down just like the price of Petrol. Good luck trying to figure out your power bill under a ETS when you have 90 different prices for carbon on the same bill my friends. Oh if you have a smart meter well you get to have a different price for every 30 minutes of the day for the 90 days in your bill cycle. Just watch the power company’s rip us off with that one. All in the name of stopping something that stopped more than a decade ago. Can’t they just top living in denial about that and get on their lives. Any one ?

    300

    • #
      turnedoutnice

      There is no CO2-AGW – the planet is self controlling.

      You prove this via irreversible thermodynamics and taking out the wrong physics from Hanenkoism.

      The other guilty people are Sagan, who influenced Hansen, Houghton ditto. The Meteorologists are not to blame because for 70 years they have believed ion false ‘back radiation’. However, no professional engineer or physicist can accept this concept.

      193

      • #
        Brian G Valentine

        Carl Sagan appeared to me to be high on hashish or opiate every time I saw him, and his thinking was consistent with that assessment

        134

      • #
        Ian H

        In what sense is back radiation “false”? You can measure it.

        Sounds like you are spouting garbage to me.

        44

        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          You can certainly measure something. That is the easy bit.

          What needs to be demonstrated is the cause and effect of what you are measuring, and how a variation in the cause leads directly to a proportional variation in the measured effect. That is the harder bit.

          We need to separate physics from belief (the word that ‘turnedoutnice’ used), and both from “generally accepted fact”.

          40

        • #

          In what sense is back radiation “false”? You can measure it.

          Sounds like you are spouting garbage to me.

          Let me try to explain this with an analogy.

          You are travelling in a car at 100kph. All of a sudden another car appears travelling at 100mph.
          Physics, tests, trials etc ALL TELL YOU THAT WERE THOSE CARS TO COLLIDE, THE RESULT WOULD BE CATASTROPHIC.

          But now picture 2 cars travelling at 100kph ALONGSIDE EACH OTHER IN THE SAME DIRECTION. You can actually wind down your windows and have a conversation across one car to the next. Heck, you can exchange drinks and minties through the window. To each other, you’d appear to be standing still.

          Just because something can be demonstrated or “proven” in a controlled lab setting, doesn’t mean you’ll get the same behaviour in an open chaotic system.

          CO2 has some profound effects in our environment. None of them are catastrophic until you get to many thousands of parts per million.

          72

        • #
          turnedoutnice

          No you can’t. A pyrgeometer measures the integral of the atmospheric radiation field, the maximum energy flux it could transfer to the zero point energy field of Space. A FTIR spectrometer measures the product of the Planck Irradiation Function and the emissivity at that wavelength.

          Most scientists and engineers fail to understand this physics. The only thing that can do thermodynamic work is the vector sum of the surface and atmospheric radiation fields. This was derived by Poynting in 1886. The problem is that Meteorologists and Climate Scientists are taught incorrect physics.

          No professional physicist will accept these claims.

          42

          • #

            T- not quite right, a pyrgeometer measures a temperature difference, then calculates an output from some assumptions such as an emissivity of a source radiation surface (please note that a gas does not have a surface) about an equation such as the Stefan-Boltzman equation which depending on conditions may not be applicable. A spectrometer measures relative wavelengths and intensities. It may give a calculated output using some equations which may not be correct depending on the assumptions.
            You are certainly not correct with the understanding of engineers. Heat Transfer (which includes conduction, convection, radiation and phase change) and thermodynamics are an engineering subjects (at least for mechanical and chemical engineers). Do you know of any scientist who can design heat transfer equipment to produce liquid hydrogen? Who do you think designed and are building the LNG trains in Gladstone?
            I feel you are correct that Climate Scientists (and probably the majority of scientists) have no understanding (or experience) of heat transfer or thermodynamics. Further, they also have no understanding of reaction kinetics such as having threshold energy levels for reactions to occur (eg methane in air does not burn (oxidise) until it is lit (a source of energy) and does not sustain combustion unless there are sufficient molecules of CH4 and O2 present to provide enough energy for the reaction to continue). It would appear those who advocate heat transfer from cold to hot can not even get past basic definitions let alone having any experience required to design and operate heat transfer equipment. correctly.

            40

            • #
              turnedoutnice

              I’m a PhD Metallurgical Engineer who did strange things like building the first two-colour pyrometers and knew Hottel. To get radiation to exceed natural convection from a level plate steel has to be >~100 deg C, Al >~300 deg C.

              You are correct in that a pyrgeometer is a pyrometer and that’s why i stated its output is the integral of the IR radiation field from the atmosphere. The mistake by Climate Alchemy is to imagine it’s a real energy flux. it isn’t.

              In reality it is almost all annihilated at the Earth’s surface and because its emissivity is ~0.66, the emissivity of the Earth’s surface at the same temperature is ~0.34, mostly, 2/3rds in the atmospheric window.

              Taking account of parallel convection and evapo-transpiration, the operational emissivity of the Earth to the atmosphere/Space is ~0.16 = 63/396. to claim it’s unity is the utmost stupidity from Trenberth and creates a perpetual motion machine and the imaginary positive feedback.

              The definitive answer is from Goody and Yung Atmospheric Physics: qdot = – Div Fv where Fv is the net radiative flux density at a point. This is conservation of energy in both material and EM worlds.

              42

              • #
                turnedoutnice

                PS I am correct to state that most scientists and engineers fail to understand radiative heat transfer.

                It’s easy to prove: no-one I have met realises the need for the negative in qdot = – Div Fv.

                If they don’t realise why, they do not understand that a hot body does not emit heat and IR energy. it emits IR energy at the same time as acquiring negative heat, simple conservation of energy.

                This flummoxes 99% or so of professionals; try it…….:0)

                32

              • #

                t- good for you. I respect the work of Hottel, I think he was present at an International Flame Days conference when I gave a paper but unfortunately did not meet him personally. I have used two color pyrometers to measure temperatures over 1200C including flame temperatures over 2400C. I am sure that they were being used for control purposes in Europe, US and Canada in the mid 1960′s while the disappearing filament pyrometer, (I owned one once), was already being used in Europe as early as 1910 for use in manual control. Australia has always been slow in automatic control because of unions and industrial relations policies. In Sweden there is a mine with no one working underground. I have been to a works in Europe producing a commodity where there was only one person on site operating the plant at the weekend. Automation should be an aim for productivity, quality and safety. Compare an oil pipeline with cartage by rail and the Canadian oil fire accident.

                20

      • #

        I’m not sure Sagan influenced Hansen so much as Hansen decided Sagan’s theory was a better sell than the one Hansen had at the time.

        10

  • #
    Turtle of WA

    I’m smiling.

    40

  • #
    blackadderthe4th

    ‘From: The Times July 23, 2013 12:00AM’ ah from the Murdoch empire! Well we know how trusted that is! NoW (News Of The World) newspaper, was closed because of all the phone hacking it’s journos were doing to the clebs and murder victims families, they have received compensation for such infringements. Some have even ended up in jail for attempting the corruption of officials. And we await further trails of the staff and officials. In fact he, Murdoch, has been recalled by Parliament to explain his recently recorded rant, about the police, law and MPs. So stay tuned while the empire goes into self destruct mode, because from what I hear in the media the money people in America are not too happy and some American laws may have been broken. Not to mention ‘Fox News’! Which seems to have its own views on what spin goes in the news!

    ‘and police are investigating allegations that Murdoch’s staff hacked into the phones of hundreds of people to land scoops, that tens of employees made payments to public officials and that others attempted to pervert the course of justice.’

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/07/18/uk-britain-murdoch-idUKBRE96H1AP20130718

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    • #
      Heywood

      Nice straw man.

      What has this got to do with the topic??

      Nothing of course. Why would a troll want to stick to the topic?

      362

      • #
        blackadderthe4th

        ‘What has this got to do with the topic??’ the report seems to be using The Times as a source!

        ‘The cash wasted on failed global warming policies would be better spent on tackling the problems faced by the POOR’

        Which is a dubious source, at best! Since when has The Times/Murdoch being concerned about the POOR? No doubt they mean people who can’t afford a second home, a 4*4, yacht, servants, etc, etc. When it will actually be the poor that are worst hit by the effects of global warming. Take India for example, millions rely on the glaciers for their water supply, which are under threat from AGW! That is just about the sum of it, hypocrisy printed large!

        119

        • #

          (Fake) blackadderthe4th. You say here:

          Take India for example…..

          I was just wondering here.

          You obviously live in a house, and that house has access to electricity to cover every single one of your needs.

          Could you indicate for us how many people in India have this same access that you take so utterly for granted.

          Oh, and if you’re shaving yet, the next time you’re doing that, look very closely in the mirror. That guy there is the hypocrite. So next time, you’ll know exactly what to look for.

          Tony.

          152

          • #
            Rereke Whakaaro

            He is also talking about water. How many Indian houses have a piped water supply, or even access to a clean well? If we hadn’t wasted billions on Climate Change, we might have made some inroads into the developmental problems that the second and third worlds face.

            121

          • #
            blackadderthe4th

            @TonyfromOz
            July 23, 2013 at 6:42 pm

            ‘ how many people in India have this same access that you take so utterly for granted’, no idea! But it will not be many! Anyhow I don’t think the problem is so much about pipes, more about the availability of water! Which is in doubt due to the melting of the glaciers, because of AGW.

            120

            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              Since when did glaciers not melt? If a glacier does not melt, then there will be insufficient water to fill the downstream rivers, and you get a drought.

              Glaciers always melt. It is the rate at which they melt that changes, and it always has, and always will. So how to you determine that this proportion of the current melt is due to AGW, and this proportion is due to climbers camping on the glacier, and this proportion is natural … and so on …

              Sometimes you astound me with the shallowness of your thinking and lack of knowledge.

              121

              • #
                blackadderthe4th

                ‘The irrigation water vital for the grain crops that feed China and India is at risk of drying up, as global warming melts the glaciers that feed Asia’s biggest rivers…but during the dry season they depend heavily on meltwater from glaciers in the Himalayas. The Gangotri Glacier in the Himalayas alone supplies 70% of the flow of the Ganges in the dry season…severely diminished melt water could make the flow of the three great rivers seasonal…the water tables under both the main grain-growing regions irrigated this way, the North China Plain and the Punjab, are sinking,’

                http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13519-melting-glaciers-will-trigger-food-shortages.html

                ‘proportion is due to climbers camping on the glacier’, Sometimes you astound me with the shallowness of your thinking and lack of knowledge.

                217

              • #
                AndyG55

                Baldrick, do you even read the links you post?

                Its a 2008 article that has that stupidity of glaciers being gone by 2035 in it.

                The only pressure on world wide grain is BIOFOOLS !!

                The article is a JOKE..

                81

              • #
                blackadderthe4th

                @AndyG55
                July 23, 2013 at 11:13 pm

                ‘Its a 2008 article that has that stupidity of glaciers being gone by 2035 in it.’ where? Please point it out, if you’ve read it!

                18

              • #
                AndyG55

                Read it yourself, idiot ! 4th paragraph. “But the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change reported last year that many Himalayan glaciers could disappear by 2035″

                Gees, do we need to give you a spoon an pusher?

                Does you mummy still spoonfeed you !

                101

              • #
                blackadderthe4th

                But we know that was grey evidence! And that does not alter the fact that 100s of glaciers are MELTING!

                Himalayan glaciers melting!

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnkFyhyyXhI

                And does your mother still change your nappies? or do you still like playing with them?

                110

            • #

              Just as I thought blackie.

              Totally and utterly clueless.

              You couldn’t care less about the people of India.

              You have no concept of what I was testing you on.

              To you, it’s just something to use to support your false religious belief.

              You couldn’t care less.

              It’s not bringing them up to a standard of living we enjoy.

              Instead, you want us to go back and join them.

              Tony.

              111

              • #
                blackadderthe4th

                ‘Instead, you want us to go back and join them.’ well the way population growth is going and as resources dwindle, we may not have any option!

                116

              • #
                AndyG55

                baldrick, the only threat to food supplies is from the Green agenda.

                Biofools, taking productive land back to useless high inflammable scrub, stopping farmers tending THEIR land properly, stopping decent dams being built, stopping burn-back hazard reductions, destruction of avian wildlife……. the list could go on, and on, and on…..

                The world would get on one heck of a lot better if the regressive Green so-called environmental agenda would just go jump in very deep hole, never to be seen again. They are NOT environmentalist, they are wreckers and vandals.

                Environments are looked after far better in a prosperous world, so get the F*** out the way and let it do so.

                61

              • #
                blackadderthe4th

                ‘AndyG55
                July 23, 2013′

                ‘the only threat to food supplies is from the Green agenda.’ are you sure about that? I think you do not not the facts!

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wRoCBluQ50

                19

              • #
                AndyG55

                And another one of your moronic little videos.. Gees GROW UP !!!!

                41

              • #
                blackadderthe4th

                ‘And another one of your moronic little videos’ why don’t you go away and make some of your own and let us all see them! It’s easy taking pot shots, when there is something to aim at! But seen as you don’t have any we can only imagine what economies of the truth you would come up with!

                18

              • #
                AndyG55

                You truly are a classic case of the devolution of the human mind.

                DUMBING DOWN ! And you have gone all the way.

                Your one aim in life seems to be to make and post puerile, irrelevant youtube videos.

                I have never seen someone actually bask in their own stupidity like you do.

                Very, very sad.

                31

              • #
                AndyG55

                ps, I showed a friend of mine one of your videos (she works in the editing dept of the local tv and teaches media study at the local Uni)

                Verdict.. “embarrassingly BAD editing, probably done by a 13 year old.”

                51

        • #
          Dave

          Blackaddled

          You have got to stop listening to these PEOPLE.

          11

    • #
      Peter Miller

      Blackie, I am intrigued, are you:

      1. 15 years old,

      2. 20 years old in a dead end degree like Media Studies, or

      3. 25 years old and a junior working in a pointless government bureaucracy.

      You obviously are one of those with an evenly balanced view on life – a chip on each shoulder, one of spite and one of envy.

      413

    • #
      cohenite

      You forgot Fairfax blackie; they’re good hackers too.

      112

    • #

      The source is not necessarily indicative of the truth of the article. Left-wing publications can by chance hit things right and right-wing publications can do the same. It would be correct, rather than the logical fallacy you introduced, to find other sources that present a different picture and look at the evidence on each side. Of course, to do that would require work and thought, which many are loathe to actually get involved in.

      30

  • #
    Brian G Valentine

    Politicians go cold as global warming debate loses spark

    What is there to debate? Debate how junky this “science” is? Debate how many disconnected events some people can somehow relate? Debate how easily some people can be duped? No thanks.

    171

  • #
    diogenese2

    Blackadder#4
    You are missing the point that all News Internationals transgressions were aimed at finding the truth which could be turned in money making headlines. Why would they bribe and corrupt officials to be told lies. They are perfectly able, with their in house resources, to make up their own. The issue is that they trampled on peoples right to privacy and suborned

    144

    • #
      blackadderthe4th

      ‘You are missing the point that all News Internationals transgressions were aimed at finding the truth’, naw! They exist to provide profits for Murdoch, his family and shareholders, and to hell with the truth!

      351

    • #

      Privacy. Interesting concept. With the NSA revelations it is obvious there is none and the governments who collude in this have the bare faced nerve to prosecute newspapers and reporters?

      120

  • #
    diogenese2

    Blackadder#4
    You are missing the point that all News Internationals transgressions were aimed at finding the truth which could be turned in money making headlines. Why would they bribe and corrupt officials to be told lies. They are perfectly able, with their in house resources, to make up their own. The issue is that they trampled on peoples right to privacy and suborned

    110

  • #
    diogenese2

    sorry, pressed the wrong button – to continue; suborned people with a duty to confidentiality. They hacked the phone of a murdered child for sound information that would make a headline- not for falsity that they could have invented. Obviously it is too much to expect you to deal with the substance of the post and the material it contains, but over the years the Murdoch Press has revealed many scandals. That they have done so for profit or malice does not alter the veracity of hat they reveal/

    220

  • #
    Manfred

    So they’re just going to continue to torture us with the pointless ETS? And this is a step forward away from direct carbon dioxide taxation? Frying pan, fire spring to mind. Both undesirable and in this case pointless.

    Economic sustainability was always the first order of the day and this was is ignored. It still is. The current dreadful mess serves well to prove what happens when politics and delusions of green grandeur lead the way oiled by the vacuous MSM who are as ever, moving with the money.

    The ETS will continue the torture as it weighs heavily upon those that can least afford it. With increasing proportions of individuals compelled to make economic decisions about what to spend their hard earned money on, food or power, while the political elite continue to delude themselves about saving the planet over their bulging midriffs in the light and warmth of their inconvenient doctrine, one hopes that this pointless trading scheme will collapse inward, like a singularity, cleaning up the speculators and banksters before disappearing into the annals of history.

    140

  • #
    Carbon500

    It’s worth mentioning that Tim Montgomerie also says that ‘I am not one of those people who deny that the climate might be changing. I don’t feel qualified to question the majority of scientists who insist that warming is both real and man-made. My objection to global warming policies is more practical. They aren’t succeeding in cutting emissions and they aren’t going to until so-called clean energy is similar in cost to conventional energy.’
    Also he states: ‘Britain’s statute book is still creaking under the weight of yesterday’s laws and their commitments to invest in expensive green energies. Until those laws are repealed British businesses and consumers will be paying a very high price for no earthly benefit.’

    180

  • #

    China’s increase in emissions has been 25 times greater than the reduction by the EU’s core nations.

    This shows that our CO2 reductions have been little more than token. Symbolic reductions that are nevertheless having a huge negative impact. Europe’s lavish spending on green subsidies is driving them toward bankruptcy, dramatically increasing the cost and security of their energy supplies, and not to mention blighting the landscape with bird killing wind turbines. All the while the increase in emissions from China alone is 25 times the pittance of the EU reduction.

    They’ll ransack if not destroy our own economies, for absolutely no purpose but symbolism. Utter unfettered insanity. One of these days we may find ourselves in a conflict where China is the enemy. Then the self-loathing western Chicken Littles are going to look mighty silly.

    210

  • #
    Joe V.

    And the Royal baby is a boy. Let’s now cast aside this nonsense of the past 1/4 century & herald a new age.

    40

    • #
      Bulldust

      Wait, did you read that in Murdoch press? It might be a lie…

      70

      • #
        Rereke Whakaaro

        Its on Reuters – so if it is a lie, it must be a conspiracy. :-)

        70

      • #
        Eddie Sharpe

        It’s on the Internet, so it could be a meme.

        60

      • #
        Backslider

        It’s on Youtube, so it must be true!

        150

      • #
        Heywood

        I just heard from Michael. Apparently it’s not true as it hasn’t been peer reviewed and published, and obviously doesn’t conform to his bias.

        70

        • #
          Backslider

          Wouldn’t be interesting To get Michael and Blackmadderthe4th together…. oh the wailing and gnashing of teeth!

          20

          • #
            AndyG55

            After the election when they are out unceremoniously dumped out of the cushy do-nothing climate jobs.

            20

          • #
            Heywood

            Of course, Michael would be chastising Blackidiotthe4th for his lack of rolled gold peer reviewed and published references… Oh wait, they are on the same team. It’s not hypocrisy if they are on the same team.

            10

    • #
      Brian G Valentine

      What are the chances that he is not as vapid, impressionable, and useless as the rest of his Royal Family

      20

      • #
        Ian H

        The fact that they are useless is what makes the monarchy so good. The powers of the head of state are dangerous. They need to be locked away in a box so nobody is ever tempted to use them. The monarchy is that box.

        You don’t want a head of state with brains and opinions who might actually try to do something. That could be very dangerous. Much better to have as head of state someone completely ignorant who never ever does anything. As an added bonus the British royals live on the other side of the planet so we never even have to see them.

        Perfect!

        31

    • #
      Andrew McRae

      Sadly, there is a whole new raft of new age nonsense nucleating around RoyalBaby already.
      Apparently we’re not allowed to say it’s a boy because this represents an offense to between 0.3% and 0.6% of the population.

      I had no idea it could be anywhere near as high as 0.6%. Ya learn somethin’ new every day, eh?

      20

  • #
    Sean

    “Rudd announced he would ditch the carbon tax”

    Didn’t they also promise never to introduce a carbon tax?

    Which lie should people trust?

    210

    • #
      Other_Andy

      “Didn’t they also promise never to introduce a carbon tax?”

      I think that was Juliar

      20

  • #

    I’ve got a slightly different take on this. The way I see things Rudd has just tried a salvage of his party, given a choice between certain death and the unthinkable, politician will chose the unthinkable. And another problem is that politicians all over the world are not taking a blind bit of notice of the groundswell, they just continue like steamrollers with the same insane support for carbon control. I noted that the in the US senate hearings the politicians were well primed with propaganda even getting a ‘creationist’ smear in on Roy Spencer. I’m no expert on Australian politics, so I might be well wrong but that is my view from a distance.

    100

    • #
      AndyG55

      You can bet that during the election, Flannery with come up with something remarkably STUPID in defence of carbon dioxide pricing.. If he hasn’t already done so.

      I really want to see that git become UNEMPLOYED !!

      111

    • #
      Rick Bradford

      All politicians have a single metric — popularity (that is, votes).

      When Green seemed in tune with the people’s desires, politicians danced to that tune.

      It has recently become clear that Green initiatives do nothing more than impose unacceptable and futile hardship on ordinary people.

      Green is now therefore as toxic as a skunk at a wine-tasting.

      So politicians are dumping it as fast as they can and get away with it.

      50

  • #
    Greg Cavanagh

    Which lie indeed.

    30

  • #
    Yonniestone

    The beginning of the end, can’t wait, however how long was it before Eugenics was purged from mainstream thinking? probably never will as it’s said “S&%T sticks”
    I recently questioned a local Greens candidate publically on AGW and all I got was a rehearsed rant then a storming off, to which the sidekick asked “Anything else?” I replied “Yes increase their medication.”
    I thought recently upon reading a food package that read “May contain traces of nuts” that this might be the best explanation of the condition of the human race.

    90

    • #
      Ace

      Yonnie you got my attention last thread. too..how dyo do it?

      The problem is that its not nuts but “well adjusted” conformists who parrot the party line of any given ideology. Even if they wear foil hats and earth their underwear to a flower pot…it will only be because “everybody” that matters seems to them to be doing so.

      This is how completely insane things come to be “normal”, like that business about it being racist to call kids “little monkeys”. If a majority go along with it, then normal it is, however idiotic.

      Sceptics are indeed nuts. Because to refuse to be a conformist is what it means to be a nutter. You know…the very image of a mad old nutter, Albert Einstein sticking his tongue out.

      70

      • #
        Yonniestone

        Ace, I don’t know it must be my rustic charm :)
        Yes the label of “Nut” and to whom it’s applied to is indeed privy to the individuals mindset, I forgot to mention that last week I was labeled a “Novarian” by an enraged warmist, apparently regular posters on here are employed by Big Oil and mates with Andrew Bolt and Alan Jones.
        I think we are entering the “B grade Sci Fi Movie” labeling stage now, Novarian ha ha it could catch on. :)

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          Ace

          I prefer Allen Jones. Actually Ive no idea who Alan Jones is. Please do not burden me with the knowldge. I will stick to Allen Jones thankyou. And, no, I didnt misspel Aled Jones.

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      … thought recently upon reading a food package that read “May contain traces of nuts”

      OT maybe, but an interesting line of research? (Won’t get funded unless it references CAGW unfortunately.)
      I recently spotted one I took to be an encouraging sign: “Ink poses little or no immediate hazard if spilled”. (No need to ring the poisons hotline or SES). “Ink in cartridge is black liquid with slight odor”. I guess this is understandable in this observationally challenged age. “Keep out of reach of children” remains valid (for almost anything).
      Also, lettering less 2mm in height, but (unlike the lettering on most medication packages) you can actually read it without a magnifying glass :-O

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        Ace

        I was amazed to read here that Australia has no employment tribunal. In the USA one of theirs forced a company to reinstate a man who admitted he was too thick to do the job on the grounds that you cannot dismiss someone for being thick as they cannot help being unintelligent.

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        • #
          Ace

          …on the other hand…notice how technology and software presupposes you know the protocols for its use and how to interpret myriad cryptic symbols arranged in tiers of opaque organisational flowagons. Its like m assuming the reader would know what a flowagon is when this is actually, to my knowledge, the first time that word has ever been used.

          So we are simultaneously assumed to be a as thick as stale crap and also telepathically attuned with super-power skills of interpretation.

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            Yonniestone

            Ace & Martin, If you want a good chuckle have a look at early Japanese motorcycle manuals, a mate has some and the instructions are lost a bit in translation, one reads “When fast driving do not attempt dismount of motorcycle” and so on, bloody funny.
            As to being reinstated and too thick for the job how dangerous is that?, we have Fair Work here and that’s supposed to be a tribunal I guess, it has a big trade union influence.

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    John F. Hultquist

    Near the top there is this

    “From: The Times July 23, 2013 12:00AM, ”

    This organization, The Times (whatever that is), can’t be trusted. Ask a dozen of your best friends what 12:00AM means. Maybe ‘The Times’ wants this to mean Noon. Or maybe they want it to mean Midnight. Who knows?

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      Rereke Whakaaro

      This is going off-topic, but since you bought it up, this is an Anglo-American thing, like the spelling of color/colour.

      “The Times” is the original name for the London Times, since it was the first to use that name. Originally it reported the times that merchant ships would be sailing or due to arrive, in the Port of London. This was later copied by other major British port towns, like Glasgow, for instance.

      From these pragmatic beginnings, it moved to printing stories that the passengers and crew on the arriving ships could tell. Thus people received new information from the “new stories”, which later became contracted to “newstories”, and abbreviated into the single word, “news”.

      With the growth of the British trading empire, the benefit of having these regular news papers got transported as well, and thus we have the New York Times, the Times of India, and others.

      Adding information about new local events came later, and were originally referred to as “chronicles”, as in the San Francisco Chronicle, but the idea soon merged with the regular news papers.

      As for the time, the date line runs through Greenwich, near London, and so time is counted relative to there. Using a standard 12-hour clock, the day is divided in half, at midday. 12.00AM means twelve hours after the start of the anti-meridian (before noon) part of the day, and 12.00PM means twelve hours after the start of the post-meridian (after-noon) part of the day. By common usage, 12.00 (without a suffix) always means noon, and the minute after 11.59pm is generally referred to as midnight.

      If you have a digital watch, you can set it to display in a 24-hour format, to avoid confusion, but that actually causes problems when you are dealing across multiple time zones, as I do. I have to keep reminding my colleagues in California, that they are really only four hours ahead of me, except that from their perspective, I am speaking to them from tomorrow. :-)

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        Jon

        You can, as NATO, use 24 hours mode and Zulu time zone as an reference so everybody starts the war on the same instant whatever time zone they live in?

        Sivil aviation do the same thing, Zulu time( Greenwich)

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    manalive

    When the history of this troubling but fascinating period is written Jo will be prominent amongst those in Australia who ‘kept their head when all about were losing theirs’ :-) .

    Priority number one is not the environment …

    Priority number one is number one: Rudd.

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    pat

    “start of the end”? not for the CIA:

    21 July: UK Independent: Rob Williams: CIA backs $630,000 study into how to control global weather through geoengineering
    Study part-funded by the CIA to investigate national security implications of geoengineering
    According to US website ‘Mother Jones’ the CIA is helping fund a study by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) that will investigate whether humans could use geoengineering – which is defined as deliberate and large-scale intervention in the Earth’s climatic system – to stop climate change…
    The cost of the project is reported to be $630,000, which NAS is splitting with the CIA, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and NASA reports say…
    A CIA spokesman refused to comment on the NAS study but told Mother Jones: “It’s natural that on a subject like climate change the Agency would work with scientists to better understand the phenomenon and its implications on national security.”
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cia-backs-630000-study-into-how-to-control-global-weather-through-geoengineering-8724501.html

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      Rereke Whakaaro

      You you looked deep enough, you might find that the CIA budget projections are showing that they risk being under budget for this year. Better to give money away to the NAS now, on a temporary basis, than risk having a budget reduction next year, and for every year thereafter.

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      Manfred

      This stuff is truly the fabric of nightmares. The sum involved is paltry for serious blue sky research, particularly from institutional bodies as august as the NAS, CIA, NOAA and NASA. One wonders how serious it is. But if it is serious, it is a profound concern.

      Aspiring to meddle with climate on the basis of the modeled output so far from the IPCC et al. is as others have expressed like a blind man looking for a black dog in a dark room, which isn’t there.

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        With any luck, all of the geoengineering will be just like AGW–tested on models only. Actually, that could work out well. Models can be attacked with other models and by the time the models are all worked out, the whole climate change idea will be a moot point. We will have been dealing with weather and climate and adapting just like we always have. Perhaps we should give more money for this–think of it, animated models of AGW being fixed by mirrors in space, sulpher dioxide disbursed in space, etc. Modeling, modeling and more modeling. Al Gore could make a new movie “G Men save the Planet” and show the models correcting the other models in 3D!

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    Jim Stewart

    “You get the politicians you deserve” the saying goes, and we must have behaved very naughtily to have the present circus troupe following us. In their ‘we are here to look after you’ power grab they are giving away what our forebears worked for with diligence, and hope for a better future for us.
    The present ‘Green Craze’ arose from the economic success that was achieved and us becoming reckless in our profligacy.
    AGW is a sad example, generating fear to grab even more control over our lives. Appropriately building windmills to allay those fears in our green hearts. You would have been jailed a few decades ago for the visual pollution we have caused – for absolutely no effect on the always changing climate, a real threat to our power grid stability, but a seriously negative effect on our costs of living. Laughable is the line from the circus that they are using the ‘Market’ to extract more money from us quicker in the green cause of fixing the AGW problem, whilst offering no flip side changes to allow for the presently proven and low cost energy sources of Nuclear, Hydro and Gas to be brought to bear – If we really want to reduce Carbon Dioxide emissions in a practical and economically sound manner. Suggest we should start where this present madness began, by completing the ‘shovel ready’ Franklin River hydro dam and generating some really ‘CLEAN’ and LOW COST power for our productive uses. Now wouldn’t that be a clear signal that we are back on track and leaving this present madness behind us.

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      John Brookes

      “You get the politicians you deserve” the saying goes, and we must have behaved very naughtily to have the present circus troupe following us.

      Around 40% of Australians don’t know that it takes 365 days for the earth to go around the sun. With voters that dumb its not surprising that some of our politicians are less than stellar.

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        Mark D.

        With voters that dumb its not surprising that some of our politicians are less than stellar.

        It is extremely rare that I agree with you John but here I do.

        Must cause you shivers and fits eh?

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          Dave

          Mark D,

          Around 40% of Australians don’t know

          I wonder if it a coincidence that 40% of Australians vote ALP?

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        Around 40% of Australians don’t know that it takes 365 days for the earth to go around the sun.

        Not quite. It takes 366 days. The journey won’t be complete in 365 days.

        You have to run the whole last lap of the marathon to finish.

        Rounding down to 365 would imply a complete orbit in 365 days to the “unwashed”. Which is untrue as it takes just shy of 6 hours longer to complete the orbit during the current era. The actual time to complete one orbit varies continuously, but is largely predictable but not with extreme precision.

        To begin; looking closely, the Sun’s position in space isn’t fixed. It’s not even fixed relative to the solar system. The surface of the sun has no fixed features. Its surface is not “solid” and its visible “surface” features rotate at different speeds around the body.

        The solar system moves through the galaxy; not even a permanent resident of one of its spiral arms. Nor does it move in the galactic plane nor in a circular orbit; instead “porpoising” above and below that plane, on an (apparently) elliptical path over the millenia; so the observed relative position of stars isn’t straight-forward to use to absolutely determine the “finish line”. There are lots of “guesses” still involved.

        Many people ano longer become excited about learning such complexities. Their eyes would glaze over at the third paragraph. They can’t cope with anything more than a “sound-bite” that tells them what to do.

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          P.S.: Forgot to mention the significant variation in the length of day; the period of full revolution about the Earth on its approximate axis over that time. ;-)

          Not many days are exactly 24 hours (except by legislation); using a standard second based on 133-Cs state transitions … which may well not be as exactly constant as was thought (observable) at time of standardisation.

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            Jon

            356 days and 6 hours, that’s why we have the 29the of Feb every 4 th year.
            And we rotate in 23 hours 56 mins and 4,1 sec

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        • #
          MemoryVault

          .
          You are over-complexicating things, Bernd.
          I understand simply “one year” was acceptable as a correct answer to the question.
          There was no apparent requirement on the responder to know how long a year was.

          .
          Which is probably just as well – the results could have been even more embarrassing.

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        Andrew McRae

        It’s worse than that. 30% of people with university degrees didn’t get the right answer.
        JB, are you sending the Science students to the wrong lecture theatres or what? :D

        Anyhow, really hard to believe those results. I really want to shoot the messenger on this one. But the question couldn’t be clearer… “Q: How long does it take for the Earth to go around the Sun?”
        There’s not even any physics jargon in it. How could they get it wrong?
        A better question…
        Q: How long will it take the government to use these poor results against us?

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    pat

    Bloomberg mentions Rudd’s ETS but doesn’t quite spell out Abbott’s plan to scrap both the carbon tax and ETS:

    21 July: Bloomberg: James Paton: Origin Says Australia Carbon Policy Changes May Delay Investment
    Opposition leader Tony Abbott has pledged to ditch the carbon price system if he wins the election…
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-21/origin-says-australia-carbon-policy-changes-may-delay-investment.html

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    pat

    LOL:

    22 July: Sky News: Strong support to make polluters pay
    A new poll commissioned by an environmental group shows almost two thirds of Australians support making big companies pay to emit carbon pollution.
    The ReachTEL poll, conducted for WWF-Australia, also found 41 per cent of people supported a move to an emissions trading scheme than 33 per cent who oppose it, while a quarter of respondents are undecided which course of action is better…
    More than half of those surveyed thought Australia should move from a greenhouse gas reduction target of five per cent by 2020 to one of 15 per cent or more, while almost a third believe it should be 25 per cent or more.
    WWF Australia spokeswoman Kellie Caught says the poll results show Australians back the basic principle of an emissions trading scheme.
    http://www.skynews.com.au/businessnews/article.aspx?id=889831

    23 July: Australian: AFP: Climate change to wipe out rarest cat
    WITHIN 50 years, climate change will probably wipe out the world’s most endangered feline, the Iberian lynx, even if the world meets its target for curbing carbon emissions.
    The gloomy forecast, published in the journal Nature Climate Change, says that without a dramatic shift in conservative strategy, the charismatic little wildcat seems doomed…
    The new study, led by Miguel Araujo of the National Museum of Natural Sciences in Madrid, models the impact of rising temperatures and changing rainfall patterns on habitat, rabbits and lynxes.
    On current trends, the changes will occur too fast for the lynx to adapt, it suggests…
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/climate-change-to-wipe-out-rarest-cat/story-e6frgcjx-1226683186563

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    Which end is this the beginning of? Is it the same end that was claimed to be beginning in all those other blogs in the last decade?

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    handjive

    With a 15 years pause in global warming pencilled in by the MET, we should be grateful no-one takes advice from failed climate lunatics like Tim Flannery seriously:

    May 19, 2008

    “Australia’s best-known expert on global warming has updated his climate forecast for the world – and it’s much worse than he thought just three years ago.

    Professor Flannery says climate change is happening so quickly that mankind may need to pump sulphur into the atmosphere to survive.

    He has called for a radical suite of emergency measures to be put in place.

    The gas sulphur could be inserted into the earth’s stratosphere to keep out the sun’s rays and slow global warming, a process called global dimming.

    “We need to be ready to start doing it in perhaps five years time if we fail to achieve what we’re trying to achieve.”

    He conceded there were risks to global dimming via sulphur.

    “The consequences of doing that are unknown.”
    .
    Wait! Someone does take advice from him.

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      Brian G Valentine

      Australia’s best-known expert …

      On what it takes to be a low-potential high-achiever

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      Backslider

      Flannery needs psychiatric help… he has clearly lost the plot.

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      Bob Malloy

      The Climate Commission was established to provide all Australians with an independent and reliable source of information about the science of climate change, the international action being taken to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and the economics of a carbon price.

      Independent and reliable source of information about the science of climate change, Indpendent, just as long as you are a true believer, proclamations by believers for believers.

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      handjive

      “The most likely explanation for the current pause is that excess heat trapped by carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is being transferred from the atmosphere to the oceans where it is being transported down to deeper layers that cannot be monitored by satellites, Professor Belcher, head of the Met Office Hadley Centre said.

      “It looks like the Earth is continuing to accumulate energy but it looks like it is being re-arranged and hidden from view,” he said.

      However, measurements from hundreds of ocean floats released over the last decade, which descend and drift to depths of up to 2,000 metres, show that huge amounts of heat from the sea surface is now being transferred to the deep ocean, with unknown consequences for the environment, the scientists said.”
      .
      So, the missing heat is being “re-arranged” & hidden from view, but hundreds of ocean floats show heat from sea-surface is being transferred to deep ocean. Well, that’s settled science for you.
      .
      Jonova- Ocean temperatures – Is that warming statistically significant?

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    Jason

    Hi All,
    I read this post and all the comments and if I was the oil and gas, or the mining lobbying groups dedicated to destroying the validity of the climate scientists and debunking this climate change myth, con, farce etc-

    I would sit back and think I have done a good job.

    Success has been achieved when so many are so confused and are unable to differentiate between marketing, spin and bias , and PEER REVIEWED SCIENCE!!!

    Cheers

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      Rereke Whakaaro

      Hi Jason,

      You are new here? Right.

      Well, to get you started, is a science blog, frequented by real scientists (not computer game players, who call themselves modellers, ahem, although some have been modellers in the past), and real engineers, who understand math, and the way the world actually works, according to the laws of Physics and Chemistry.

      It is also frequented by real political and intelligence analysts, who understand more about the human nature of politics than it healthy for them to know.

      We also have our fair share of Public Servants, because they are so pervasive in modern society, you can’t really get rid of them – sorta like bad herpes, if you know what I mean.

      And then we have a fair share of me-too political fellow travellers, who get all of their “understanding” of climate science (which isn’t a real science), by reading blogs written by people who also don’t have an understanding of how the science works, but can run surveys where every question only has one answer.

      And the poor dumb sods who just don’t get the joke, that “Peer Review”, means review by the authors peers – people who are just like the author, and who share the same views, right or wrong.

      Now, which category do you fall in?

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        Jason

        “And the poor dumb sods who just don’t get the joke, that “Peer Review”, means review by the authors peers – people who are just like the author, and who share the same views, right or wrong”

        you are kidding right? you actually believe that peer reviewed means just a gang of like minded individuals having a collective agree-a-thon where the veracity of the information and premise of the thesis is not torn apart from every conceivable angle to ensure it holds water.

        Well, to get you started, is a science blog, frequented by real scientists (not computer game players, who call themselves modellers, ahem, although some have been modellers in the past), and real engineers, who understand math, and the way the world actually works, according to the laws of Physics and Chemistry.

        Typical “holder of TRUTH” are you? it is funny and easy to see that your mind is potentially perfectly protected against information that doesn’t fit into your acceptable definitions of “truth”…. in terms of physics how can there be an argument? CO2 is a heat trapping gas, it has a normal natural cycle and performs its role well in keeping the Earth within livable temperatures, so I am confused when you say you understand the physics and chemistry of climate change for the very basics of the physics and chemistry are all indicating that there is growing CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere and growing acidity in the oceans and the only variable that has changed in the last 200 years is the human released co2 into the atmosphere through burning billions of gallons of fossil fuels and billions of tons of coal.

        Explain your position on why climate change is not a direct threat using your mastery of the understanding of physics and chemistry on planet Earth.

        cheers

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          Ace

          “Typical “holder of TRUTH” are you? it is funny and easy to see that your mind is potentially perfectly protected against information that doesn’t fit into your acceptable definitions of “truth”…. ”

          Funny…thats EXACTLY what I saw at once that this “Jason” plonker is. He describes himself perfectly! its called ‘projection’.

          Keep it up mamma, we is gonna have a gran ole laugh on you!

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            Ace

            …well others are, Im 1,000 miles away and going to bed.

            Ever see the movie “The Last Wave”? well that sky shit is just kicking off outside our windows here.

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              Ace

              …thats TWELVE thousand miles away, fecking keyboard.

              30

              • #
                Ace

                …oh well, cannot resist this one:

                “Explain your position on why climate change is not a direct threat using your mastery of the understanding of physics and chemistry on planet Earth.’

                .hahaha..like he thinks physics and chemistry vary by planetary location!

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          Other_Andy

          “…and the only variable that has changed in the last 200 years is the human released co2 into the atmosphere…..”

          Oh boy, where to start?
          11 year and 206 year cycles: Cycles of solar variability (sunspot activity)
          21,000 year cycle: Earth’s combined tilt and elliptical orbit around the Sun (precession of the equinoxes)
          41,000 year cycle: Cycle of the +/- 1.5° wobble in Earth’s orbit (tilt)
          100,000 year cycle: Variations in the shape of Earth’s elliptical orbit (cycle of eccentricity)
          Quasiperiodic climate patterns.

          Also remember, correlation does not imply causation.

          Care to answer my question below?

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            Jason

            good bye trolls- see ya!!

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            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              Way-hey.

              Out of his depth and bailed?

              But wait, look at the time of his first and last comments – a legend in his own lunchtime.

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              • #
                Ace

                …or else he’s in a very different time zone and went to bed around then, like I did. After watching the fabulous lightening we had. Thats the thing about the internet, you can chat with anyone from anywhere… but without fear of catching something.

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              AndyG55

              pusillanimous git.. must be a climate scientist.. refuses to debate.!

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            • #
              Brian G Valentine

              buh-bye! Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on yer way out

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            • #
              Ace

              That he doesnt know what “Trolls” is used to mean but tries to imitate its use indicates he is likely either very young or an older technonolgy late-adoption user and either way this internetter thing is a bit new to him.

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          Other_Andy

          Great, no drive-by troll but somebody with some background knowledge.

          “CO2 is a heat trapping gas, it has a normal natural cycle and performs its role well in keeping the Earth within livable temperatures”

          Yes it is.

          Two simple questions:

          1. What is the climate sensitivity to CO2?
          2. What were the temperatures and levels of CO2 in the Late Ordovician Period?

          “….human released co2 into the atmosphere through burning billions of gallons of fossil fuels and billions of tons of coal….”

          Four more (for you easy) questions.

          1. What is the Percentage of Carbon dioxide (CO2) in the Earth’s atmosphere?
          2. CO2 makes up what percentage of all known greenhouse gasses?
          3. What is the percentage of Anthropogenic CO2 in the Earth’s atmosphere?
          4. Adding up all anthropogenic greenhouse sources, what is the total human contribution to the greenhouse effect?

          Last one:

          If all countries that signed up to the Kyoto protocol (That includes Australia) would stop emitting CO2 completely, what would the the percentage of Anthropogenic CO2 in the Earth’s atmosphere come down to?

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            Backslider

            Adding up all anthropogenic greenhouse sources, what is the total human contribution to the greenhouse effect?

            According to Michael, 40% of the CO2 in the atmosphere is anthropogenic… and The Industrial Revolution pulled us all out of the LIA.

            Still waiting on the peer reviewed science for that bunkum….

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          Rereke Whakaaro

          … you actually believe that peer reviewed means just a gang of like minded individuals having a collective agree-a-thon …

          I don’t have to believe. The evidence is there, in the Climategate emails. Why, we even have Phil Jones stating that they, “will get the peer reviewed process changed, if necessary.”

          Real evidence trumps opinion and belief, very time.

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          AndyG55

          “you actually believe that peer reviewed means just a gang of like minded individuals having a collective agree-a-thon where the veracity of the information and premise of the thesis is not torn apart from every conceivable angle to ensure it holds water.”

          In the case of climate science.. MOST DEFINITELY !!!!

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          Backslider

          CO2 is a heat trapping gas

          False. CO2 either re-radiates immediately or collides with another molecule.

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        • #
          Backslider

          growing acidity in the oceans

          Do tell us all which ocean is acidic….?

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          Backslider

          the only variable that has changed in the last 200 years is the human released co2

          Oh really? And what, for example, has the sun been doing?

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          Bob Malloy

          you are kidding right? you actually believe that peer reviewed means just a gang of like minded individuals having a collective agree-a-thon where the veracity of the information and premise of the thesis is not torn apart from every conceivable angle to ensure it holds water.

          The information below, first published in The Medical Journal of Australia, republished in Lancet might enlighten you on Peer Review.

          Richard Horton, then editor of The Lancet, contributed a guest editorial for the Medical Journal of Australia (Genetically modified food: consternation, confusion and crack-up; MJA 2000; 172: 148-149) in which he wrote:
          “The mistake, of course, is to have thought that peer review was any more than a crude means of discovering the acceptability – not the validity – of a new finding. Editors and scientists alike insist on the pivotal importance of peer review. We portray peer review to the public as a quasi-sacred process that helps to make science our most objective truth teller. But we know that the system of peer review is biased, unjust, unaccountable, incomplete, easily fixed, often insulting, usually ignorant, occasionally foolish, and frequently wrong.”

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            Ace

            In psychology, peer review results in 97% of papers published having positive findings. This lala land figure has been known since 1958. It tells us about psychology, but it also shows that peer review only reinforcs the assumptions of th froup.

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        • #

          Jason, he doesn’t have to since he’s not the one demanding modern society be dismantled and deconstructed. All he wants is for those that do provide irrefutable evidence that such actions are necessary. Basic epistemology son.

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        crakar24

        It is also frequented by real political and intelligence analysts, who understand more about the human nature of politics than it healthy for them to know.

        I only know one person here that fits into this category :-)

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      • #
        Andrew McRae

        Jolly good show by all.
        I dunno whether to hope he comes back or stays away. I think the former, just for the comedy value.

        20

    • #
      Other_Andy

      Who claims that climate change is a myth?

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    • #
      Backslider

      and PEER REVIEWED SCIENCE!!!

      Oh looky…. it’s Michael’s little brudder…..

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      • #

        He’s gone. Back to his lecturer to find out where he went wrong. He thought it would be like a box of chocolates. Fun while it lasted, like someone gave us a new ball to play with.

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  • #
    Dave

    .

    Politicians go cold as global warming debate loses spark?

    Some have, but not all, like this mob in West Australia.

    Environment Minister Albert Jacob has given the green light to a proposal for Western Australia’s first full-scale tidal energy power station.

    The Tidal Energy Australia (TEA) proposal to build a station at Doctor’s Creek, near Derby, is designed to generate 40 megawatts of electricity – enough to power 10,000-15,000 homes.

    First have look at the release of this info, there’s a lot of environmental factors like replacing mangroves etc. How the stuff do you replace mangroves and why??

    So I looked at the original Report and Recommendations of the Environmental Protection Authority and then found the following:

    Life of project Up to 120 years
    Barrages Approximately 0.5 and 1.3 kilometres long, comprising 1.0 million cubic metres of earth fill
    Rock armour Approximately 60,000 cubic metres
    Rip-rap Approximately 70,000 cubic metres
    Levees Approximately 26 kilometres
    Turbine channel Excavation of approximately 1.0 million cubic metres
    Dredging • initial low basin dredging • maintenance dredging • approximately 10 million cubic metres • ongoing
    Sluice gates x 2 • high basin • low basin • 60 to 70 metres wide • 100 to 160 metres wide
    Turbines x 4 to 6 Total capacity 48 megawatts
    Transmission lines Approximately 450 kilometres of 132 kilovolt lines
    Associated buildings Office and control room Switchyard Public ablutions block Visitor centre
    Access road Approximately 20 kilometre causeway

    Look at the tens of millions of tonnes of dreging, fill, rock all going on in the mouth of Doctors Creek near Derby. All this to save 27,000 tonnes of CO2 per year.

    They are definitely off the planet if they let this go ahead.

    Whats the cost of a gas turbine and the LCA for it to supply 40MW?

    Tidally stupid. And look at Tidal energy website virtually no information on the project at all – this is just a bunch of Green Vandals waiting for Government handouts.

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      Brian G Valentine

      There are bone headed projects, most solar projects fall in that category.

      Tidal Power is beyond that, a class all of its own.

      I wonder why they don’t just take 200 million or so of taxpayer dollars and throw it out to sea? They are going to lose more than that when they discover how much it costs to remove nonfunctional junk from the ocean floor (like in less than two years, wagers taken)

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      Other_Andy

      Wow, they save 27,000 tonnes of CO2 per year!

      Total CO2 emissions in 2011 : 31.6 gigatonnes per year.
      That is about 86.575.342 tonnes a day.

      27,000 tonnes of CO2 is about 27 seconds worth of CO2.

      They are saving the planet!

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      Rod

      Better be careful using tidal energy. Might slow the rotation of the earth.

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      Len

      Jacob looks young enough and silly enough to believe and push this. He is also pushing “carbon” sequestation in the south west.

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      Alan

      Interesting one this. Heard an interview with the promotor on the radio yesterday. At this stage they don’t have a detailed engineering design, they don’t have a customer for any electricity and hello, no project finance.

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      MemoryVault

      .
      That would be Environment Minister Albert Jacob of the Colin Barnett LIBERAL-NATIONAL WA State government, wouldn’t it?

      Albert Jacob and the ultra-conservative Greg Hunt must surely have some cunning stunts planned.

      .
      Somebody please remind about how all this madness is going to stop, just as soon as we elect an LNP government in Canberra.

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        Other_Andy

        Good question.

        Look what a change from Labour to National government did in New Zealand.
        We still have the ETS.

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          It’s fence sitting with the benefit of an inscrutable morally mandated tax. It takes a special kind of politician to buck the trend. One with guts and scruples and they are as rare as chicken teeth.

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        Len

        Not the policeman’s baton.

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    incoherent rambler

    Politicians have two masters (or mistresses), namely the MSM and voters.
    First and foremost is the MSM, they must agree with the predominant views of the MSM lest they find themselves excluded from the clique and pilloried (e.g. Abbott)

    Second, only when down in the polls and at voting time, they must bend to the voting majority’s will.

    Kev has obviously read the handbook. The MSM will persist with the AGW scam for a long time yet, but it is clear that AGW is electoral poison.

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    There will be no climb down. They will attempt to rewrite history as they have attempted to rewrite reality. Soon they will be saying that the absences of AGW is “consistent” with their simulations and that there is a 97% consensus on that.

    Remember if you are a progressive or a new age “scientist” you never have to admit you were wrong or you are sorry for making the mistakes. You simply change the name and the subject and say “send more money for more research into the matter”.

    They are SCUM top to bottom, left to right, front to back, and inside and out. As a leopard can’t change his spots, they can’t change the fact they have no character, honesty, or honor. There is no such thing as an honest mistake that huge.

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      Brian G Valentine

      There’s no such thing as “character” to a “progressive.”

      They don’t need it. They paint anyone who questions their scummy activities as a “racist” and it allows them to continue to do exactly what they want to whenever they want to.

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    Safetyguy66

    We can only hope its true. My faith in people’s intelligence and natural ability to think freely has been sorely tested the last few years. Im not convinced we are near the end. Governments have to easy a link to new taxes and behavioral modification tools using the excuse of climate change to milk their populace, that kind of opportunity wont die easy.

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    Rod Stuart

    This article by Peter Costello today is priceless. It really says it all so far as Australian politics is concerned since 2007. One could really consider it to be non-partisan. It is simply factual. It is enough to make you sick.

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    pat

    what a terrible shame:

    22 July: News Ltd: John Dagge: Rural lender Gippsland Secured Investments freezes $150m in investor accounts
    ABOUT 3,500 mainly rural investors have had $150 million in funds frozen by a Gippsland non-bank lender.
    In an echo of the collapse of the Banksia financial group, shadow banking lender Gippsland Secured Investments has frozen customer accounts following a review of its loan book.
    The company is endorsed by 3AW radio host Denis Walter and bills itself as a “rock solid” investment destination…
    http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/rural-lender-gippsland-secured-investments-freezes-150m-in-investor-accounts/story-e6frfkp9-1226683327618

    23 July: ABC: Mark Debono & Staff: Locals wait and see as rural finance company GSI freezes operations
    Gippsland farmer, Lea Worseldine has money invested with GSI and previously had money with the failed investment company Banksia.
    She says she is hoping GSI will be able to trade out of its difficulties.
    She says many farmers and regional groups have deposits or loans with the company…
    But she is hoping the company will not go into receivership.
    “I just feel that if you bring the receivers in, any cash funds that are there will be swallowed up,” she said.
    “The receivers take theirs first and there won’t be much left for anybody else, and that’s what does happen.”
    The East Gippsland Council says it can not offer much help to investors affected by problems with a local mortgage fund.
    Mayor Dick Ellis says the move is a shock to the community and there is little the council can do…
    Last year Banksia Securities collapsed, jeopardising more than $600 million worth of investments…
    ASIC is also working on regulations for the sector.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-23/locals-wait-and-see-as-rural-finance-company-gsi-freezes-operat/4837190

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    pat

    ***take a bow, jo, anthony, Big Mac, etc. plenty of “excuses” in the text not pasted:

    22 July: BBC: David Shukman: Why has global warming stalled?
    In many ways, this event was long overdue: climate sceptics have for years pointed out that the world is not warming as rapidly as once forecast…
    ***Gradually the words ‘pause’ and ‘hiatus’ which first featured in the blogs have crossed to the media and then to the scientists professionally engaged in researching the global climate.
    The headline – which the scientists will not thank me for – is that no one is really sure why the rate of warming has stumbled…
    There are plenty of possible explanations but none of them adds up to a definitive smoking gun…
    On top of that, the scientists say, pauses in warming were always to be expected. This is new – at least to me.
    It is common sense that climate change would not happen in a neat, linear away but instead in fits and starts.
    But I’ve never heard leading researchers mention the possibility before…
    Professor Rowan Sutton, of Reading University, said computer simulations or models of possible future climate scenarios often show periods of ten years with no warming trend – some even show pauses of 20-25 years.
    And Professor Stephen Belcher, head of the Met Office Hadley Centre, said observations and models showed that on average there were – or would be – two pauses in warming every century.
    I asked why this had not come up in earlier presentations. No one really had an answer, except to say that this “message” about pauses had not been communicated widely…
    But what about another possibility – that the calculations are wrong?
    What if the climate models – which are the very basis for all discussions of what to do about global warming – exaggerate the sensitivity of the climate to rising carbon dioxide?
    Dr Stott conceded that the projections showing the most rapid warming now look less likely, given recent observations, but that others remain largely unchanged…
    But until the pause can be properly explained, many people will take a lot of convincing – especially if the pause lasts longer than expected.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23409404

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    pat

    Rereke Whakaaro -

    yes, i’m still in shock.

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    pat

    to be honest, this is what it is about:

    16 July: ABC PM: Prof Ross Garnaut: The ETS fundamentals have been preserved
    MARK COLVIN: Professor Ross Garnaut joins me now. What, how much remains of what you envisioned in terms of an emissions trading scheme?
    ROSS GARNAUT: Hello Mark, well what we’ll have once we go to a floating price is the sort of scheme that the multi-party committee was working on and embodied in the legislation that was passed by the Parliament in 2010…
    MARK COLVIN: To what extent did you anticipate the crash in the world price of carbon?
    ROSS GARNAUT: Well we know that the market will set the price with an emissions trading scheme. I don’t think that we foresaw quite the reduction in economic activity in Europe that has occurred. When the price was set, the price in Europe was higher than the anticipated fixed price.
    The reason for the reduction has been that it’s turned out to be much cheaper for Europe to meet its targets. Europe is committed to reducing emissions by 20 per cent by 2020 from 1990 levels and with recession and with all of the other programs they’ve got going to increase renewable energy and reduce emissions then it’s turning out to be much cheaper for them to meet that minus 20 per cent target than had been anticipated…
    ROSS GARNAUT: Well on the deterrence question what matters is expectation of the longer-term Mark and once you’ve got this scheme in place and expectations that the world will be serious about meeting emissions reduction targets and every indication is the world is serious about that – what’s happening in Europe, what’s happening in Korea, what’s happening in Japan, what’s happening in China, what’s happening in the United States.
    So business will take all that into account and most businesses, wise business leaders, will calculate that the price will be higher at some time in the future. So the investments that they make now will be designed to fit into that world that’s expected in future…
    MARK COLVIN: What did you think of Tony Abbott’s remarks about the ETS being a scheme involving an invisible substance and largely dismissing the scheme as sort of economic nonsense I suppose?
    ROSS GARNAUT: Oh that was just politics. There’s lots of markets of invisible things. The modern world economy runs on intellectual property which is every bit as invisible as carbon dioxide so that’s just politics Mark…
    http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2013/s3804401.htm

    only Abbott is standing up to the banksters/MSM/beholden politicians & their dream of a CARBON DIOXIDE BUBBLE to suck up the last liquidity left in the system – namely the baby boomer Super/Pension Funds.

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      MadJak

      Hey Crakar,

      So if the oceans is hidin’ all dat evil nasty heat way down low, building it all up so we will all fry like a prawn on the barbie….

      Why aren’t the sea levels rising like they claim it would due to expansion of the warmer seas when the arctic sea ice dissappears, which it isn’t as predicted?

      I really enjoy when their own words and predictions contradict each other. It makes it so much more fun…

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      Other_Andy

      Professor Rowan Sutton, of Reading University, said computer simulations or models of possible future climate scenarios often show periods of ten years with no warming trend – some even show pauses of 20-25 years.
      And Professor Stephen Belcher, head of the Met Office Hadley Centre, said observations and models showed that on average there were – or would be – two pauses in warming every century.
      I asked why this had not come up in earlier presentations. No one really had an answer, except to say that this “message” about pauses had not been communicated widely.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23409404

      There are several half truths and complete lies in this article.
      Can you find them?

      The scam marches on.

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      Mark D.

      Sure it’s down deep in the oceans. But then why do idiots like Michelle say it’s already causing “extreme weather”? How can it be in two different places at the same time?

      Double speak!

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    Anton

    “Some will argue that Rudd has shifted to a trading scheme which is what he always wanted, and he’s only brought it forward by a year. But everyone knows that the reason for the shift was not because it would be “better for the climate” to reduce the carbon-price by 70%. Even Rudd himself admits the shift was to reduce the cost of living pressures.”

    Seldom do I disagree with Jo, but the real reason (regardless of what Rudd says) is because it was a vote-loser and an election is looming.

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    Andrew McRae

    Well done Lionell.

    IPCC
    November 17, 2007

    the best estimate for the low scenario (B1) is 1.8°C (likely range is 1.1°C to 2.9°C) shown in Fig SPM.5 as forecasts monotonically increasing every decade.

    Lionell Griffith
    July 23, 2013 at 12:23 pm

    There will be no climb down. They will attempt to rewrite history as they have attempted to rewrite reality. Soon they will be saying that the absences of AGW is “consistent” with their simulations and that there is a 97% consensus on that.

    pat
    July 23, 2013 at 3:52 pm

    22 July: BBC: David Shukman: Why has global warming stalled?
    …On top of that, the scientists say, pauses in warming were always to be expected.

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    Tim

    It’s just a pause, guys. Unfortunately we can’t provide proof for this theory, but it makes a good PR story.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/has-global-warming-stopped-no–its-just-on-pause-insist-scientists-and-its-down-to-the-oceans-8726893.html

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    Priority number one [for Rudd] is not the environment.
    You may remember his’greatest moral challenge for the
    future’pronouncement, but that was then. As he leaps
    from issue to issue, resolving none, its not about the
    environment or the economy, its about a headline a day
    and vote for me. Read Henry Ergas in ‘The Australian’
    ‘Kevin Rudd’s Real Record as PM Speaks for Itself.’

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/kevin-rudds-real-record-as-pm-speaks-for-itself/story-fn7078da-1226678687731

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    theRealUniverse

    Where was the action? Where was the proposals? where was the mass awakening? To GET RID OF THE TAX!! That was the frikin point wasnt it? Or was it just allot of waffle on a web site.

    00