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Flat Earthers believe in climate change

Flat circle, wall of ice around the edge. Hmm

Let it be known, the next time you are called a “Flat Earther” you can point out that the Flat Earth society (or at least their President) is on the same side as Al Gore and James Hansen. It’s a piece of useless trivia that’s good for useless conversations.

I did not believe there was such a group so I scoped out their site expecting it to be a joke. But if it is a satire, it’s a very detailed one, they have maps and t-shirts, and explanations, and so far I haven’t found the joke. Salon.com decided it was real:

Actually, even the Flat Earth Society believes in climate change

Yes, such a group exists. It thinks the world is flat — but also getting warmer

In his big speech on climate change today, President Obama mocked Republicans who deny the existence of man-made global warming by derisively referring to them as members of “the Flat Earth Society.”

As it turns out, there is a real Flat Earth Society and its president thinks that anthropogenic climate change is real. In an email to Salon, president Daniel Shenton said that while he “can’t speak for the Society as a whole regarding climate change,” he personally thinks the evidence suggests fossil fuel usage is contributing to global warming.

Read more…

 

What can I say? With 7 billion people, odds are that some people might believe the world is flat. It’s apparently centred on the North pole and radiating out to end in a wall of ice all around. (That stops the oceans from draining off. Handy.) They call themselves empiricists (the world looks flat) and at least don’t claim to know what’s beyond the wall. To the obvious retort about astronauts and camera’s, they point out that photos of Earth can be faked. They have explanations for the day-night thing, and the summer-winter thing, but I can’t say I feel any urge to give up my solar-centred globe model. (The sun would have to be pretty small, or hey, flat itself, to get the dark effect on one half… no let’s not even go there.) With each explanation of the flat world, another law of physics explodes.  I felt like an anthropologist visiting a lost tribe. I don’t want to be mean… they seem like nice people.

Nicer indeed than the name-calling cheats who call us “Flat Earthers”.

H/t to Willie. :- )

 

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149 comments to Flat Earthers believe in climate change

  • #
    chris y

    The environmental movement is filled with flat-Earthers-

    Consider flat-Earth beliefs many centuries ago. Beyond the observational horizon, great minds conceived of peril and disaster, an edge or cliff or tipping point that would lead to certain destruction. This was based partly on acknowledging the common-sense flatness of the observed world, and that this flatness could not extend without limits.

    Now think about the apocalyptic predictions portended by the great minds of the environmental movement. Although things may appear ok now, this cannot continue without limits. There must be a tipping point or edge or cliff just a little into the future, a horizon that cannot be observed. The tipping point leads to the dead-certain destruction of all life on Earth.

    Of course, the decayed husks of failed end-of-the-world predictions litter human history, and are as common today as they were during the middle ages.

    As time marches on, the edges of the map catch up with the predicted cliffs. The old predictions of the ends-of-the-Earth are revealed as ignorant bafflegab. Unlike the flat-Earthers of the past, however, the current crop of eco-doomsters simply moves the cliffs and edges out past the horizon, once again proclaiming equally dire apocalypse just over the horizon.

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    • #
      turnedoutnice

      Obama should have starred in ‘Close Encounters of the Third Kind’.

      These technological ignoramus have lapped up Hansen, Trenberth, Houghton and Sagan’s fake physics and turly believe in the Sky Dragon.

      But it never hatched. There is exactly zero CO2-AGW. Methane clathrate explosions can have only a few tenths of a degree effect.

      Obama is a messianic bully who has drunk from the cup of Common purpose and Marxism as did Gillard and Brown. These people are scum.

      120

    • #
      jaymam

      Over the last couple of thousand years, the number of failed end-of-the-world predictions is increasing at a remarkable rate. If we plot that on a graph, it looks like a hockey stick!

      40

      • #
        Low hanging Lank

        I thought flat earthers were just people with small chest measurements. Is Obama being discriminating with this reference to our less robust brothers and sisters?

        20

  • #
    Dave Bob

    It’s real, and it’s been around for quite a while.
    In the early 80′s the Wall Street Journal ran an article about the President of the Flat Earth Research Society. He said when he first saw a globe in school, “it just didn’t make any sense.”

    He looked like Moses (except for the dark suit and tie)standing outside his home in the California desert with Joshua trees in the background.

    For you Aussie readers, I thought his best comment was, “if the earth were round, Australians would be hanging by their feet; my wife is Australian, and she has never hung by her feet!”

    70

  • #
    DougS

    What are you saying? The world is round!

    When did that happen?

    80

  • #
    Joe V.

    Aren’t the Computer Models based on a Flat Earth ?
    In Flat Earth models that ignore rotational & cyclic behaviour perhaps linear trends seem normal.

    320

    • #

      Aren’t the Computer Models based on a Flat Earth ?

      Used to be. Haven’t heard that this has changed. The trigonometry that allowed sailors to get around for centuries was “too hard” for climate modellers.

      120

      • #
        Andrew McRae

        The relevant laws in Geometry have been known for a long time.
        Navigation along the shortest distance between one wealth distribution and another upon the surface of a twisted environment, such as a science scam, always follows the path of a Grant Circle.

        70

        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          That sounds like bafflegab to me ;-)

          00

          • #
            Andrew McRae

            My good fellow, `tis nothing of the sort!
            Satire can be made with only the best ingredients. I employ only the finest quality Gobbledygook for my satire. Bafflegab is merely a cheap imitation!

            Which branch of mathematics must one study to find out more about Grant Circles? Obviously it is called Fearical Geometry!

            Well okay, my pun supplier has been having QA issues lately… grumble

            00

    • #
      Geoffrey Cousens

      Yes,flat earth and 24 hours sunshine.

      30

  • #
    Sharingofknowledge

    One does not light the flame of knowledge by namecalling the less educated and confused, mentor, teacher anyone ?

    21

  • #

    President Obama has no originality. British Labour PM Gordon Brown called sceptics “Flat-earthers”, before the Copenhagen climate conference in 2009. He said

    With only days to go before Copenhagen we mustn’t be distracted by the behind-the-times, anti-science, flat-earth climate sceptics. We know the science. We know what we must do.

    Widely rated as one of the worst British Prime Ministers of modern times, since losing the 2010 he has been one of the least active MPs in Westminster.

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    • #
      Lars P.

      we know “the science”.
      Maybe my non-english-native ears trick me, but when I hear this I have the feeling it is more behind it: it is “the science”, not science, not scientific method, not proof, not logic, but “the science” and the high priests: only certified scientists can understand the science. Nobody else can. It is too complex and cannot be explained to simply skeptic minds.

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      • #
        Joe V.

        Yes, it always rings alarm bells now hearing someone refer to “the science”. Invariably it’s not a scientist and often forewarns that they don’t know what they’re talking about.
        It’s that old appeal to authority – ie. because its sciencey then it must be right. Then even if it isn’t, well there’s a consensus, so being wrong cannt be all that bad, because at least we won’t be alone in that. The appeal to popularity & comfort in numbers.

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        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          And as a last resort, we must do something because it is demanded by the precautionary principle.

          00

          • #
            AndyG55

            The precautionary principle says we should keep our money in our wallets !!

            And NOT waste it on CRAP.

            ps.. can ANYONE tell me where $250 BILLION has been spent.

            Can ANYONE see anything for this $250 billion ?????

            10

          • #

            The precautionary principle is only ever applied to the potential problem. It is never applied to using Governments to enact a solution. Even if there were a real CAGW problem and a theoretical set of policies that could be enacted at a lower expected cost than the predicted catastrophe, the policy precautionary principle would still say don’t do anything. In devising policies, governments make compromises that add to the costs and reduce the effectiveness. In implementation of policy they lack the incentives, the knowledge, the abilities, the drive and the long-term commitments to maximise the benefits and minimize the costs.
            To drive through a cost-benefit style policy as the IPCC and the Stern Review recommend, it is required to have high impact low cost (HI-LC) policies. What we have instead is near-zero impact and high cost policies.

            20

            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              I am glad that somebody else actually understands what is really meant by the Precautionary Principle.

              I first came across it just after I joined the military, when a Sargent said to one of the trainees, “Johnstone, I want you to stand there and watch that rock, and tell me if it moves.” To the rest of us, he said, “Come with me”. We then went inside, to watch Johnstone through the window. The Sargent then asked, “How long do you think it will take for the rock to move?” One of the trainees said, “It will never move”, whereupon the Sargent just stared at him. One of the more brighter trainees then ventured, “It would if there was an earthquake”.

              “Ah”, said the Sargent, “That’s right. If there is an earthquake, the rock will move, and Johnstone will then tell me about it”. He then continued: “I am taking the precaution of stationing Johnstone by that rock just in case there is an earthquake strong enough to make it move, any questions?”

              Another trainee then said, “But, Sargent, if there is an earth quake strong enough to move that rock, then we will feel it anyway, so why do you need Johnstone to tell you?”

              The Sargent grinned, and said, ” Because I have taken the precaution of having somebody watch for an event, just in case it occurs. If somebody senior to me has occasion to worry about earthquakes, then they can be reassured that I already have the matter in hand”.

              And that, dear friends, is the basis of the Precautionary Principle.

              30

    • #
      Jon

      Democratic elected but has no place or tolerance for political or scientific arguments?
      Marxism?

      10

  • #
    Manfred

    It’s apparently centred on the North pole and radiating out to end in a wall of ice all around.

    Damn. I’ve always thought the waters of the Oceans flowed off the edge and that it would be a truly magnificent sight to behold and to hear. I’ve often seen it depicted as such. So, now where do they now think rivers go?

    60

  • #
    Peter Miller

    The flat Earth concept is on par with that of CAGW.

    Unfortunately for their believers, actual observations prove they are both complete BS.

    As for Gordon Brown, he was the most expensive man in British history, his ineptitude and arrogance was responsible for turning the most successful economy in Europe into a Greek lookalike in less than a decade. He was wrong on just about everything, so it is no surprise he was a fan of Global Warming.

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  • #
    Herr Majuscule

    http://www.occupycorporatism.com/obama-has-used-executive-power-to-push-climate-change-agenda/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+OccupyCorporatism+%28OCCUPY+CORPORATISM%29

    “…….Now the Obama administration has come forth with a new war, the war on coal.

    Daniel Schrag, climate advisor to the Obama administration said that “a war on coal is exactly what’s needed”………

    30

  • #
    Lars P.

    Thanks! I always have suspected this but it is great to have it black on white :) (or blue, whatever)
    One glance at the global energy budget diagram presented by warmista and one recognises the flat earth.

    40

  • #
    tckev

    As they all appear to believe in the outrageous and ludicrous results of their computer model, then yes they are.
    The computer model’s supposed rationalizing reduces the spherical earth to a disc that is a ¼ of the diameter of the real earth, constantly irradiated by a ¼ of our real sun’s output 24/7 with no day/night cycle.

    70

  • #

    Cant get my head around global warming without a globe. Am not going to try real hard.

    120

    • #
      Colin Henderson

      Hey Siliggy – are you suggesting that our scepticism is not grounded in science but instead based on the notion that there can’t be a global anything because the earth is flat? ;)

      00

  • #
    handjive

    Transcript of Greg Gutfeld’s brilliant soliloquy on The Five-

    “So today, our incredible shrinking president laid out his strategy to fight mother nature, and it’s hilarious…[Obama clip]…
    Ahhh, about those facts.

    Every major press outlet has admitted world temperatures haven’t changed in 16 years, and that climate predictions were wildly exaggerated. And those skeptics threatened for bucking the consensus- they were right all along.

    And about those ‘some areas of the ocean that are getting warmer,’ it’s called the globe, Mr. President, not ‘some areas of the globe.’
    That’s why they take global temperatures.

    Talk about denying science, Obama makes flat Earthers look like Charles Darwin.
    He’s like one of those Japanese airmen from World War II, stuck on an island for decades, with no idea that the war’s been over.

    So how is his blather hurting us? Well, it’s making us vulnerable to oil-rich enemies.
    Obama kills pipelines and delays fracking, while bowing before creeps who hate us.

    Results? We’ve got a dying economy, we’ve got no jobs, less safety, all as Obama is shoveling billions to green energy, which is just the mob without the meatballs.
    All this, so the president can feel cool around Matt Damon.

    So to create a distraction from his swamp of scandals, Obama must wage a war on coal, which is a war on people who aren’t Matt Damon.
    Coal workers don’t hobnob among the Georgetown elite. No, they actually work, producing something the globe needs, unlike Matt Damon.

    Listen up, you climate hags.
    According to the emergency disasters database, almost 2 million people die each year inhaling smoke from makeshift fuels like animal dung and wood, all because they lack coal.

    I guess that doesn’t play too well in the patios of D.C. or Bel Air, where the only climate change that matters is which way the wind blows.”

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    • #
      Manfred

      Obama kills pipelines and delays fracking, while bowing before creeps who hate us

      …fireside chats with the Taliban.

      Incomprehensible.

      60

      • #

        It’s stunning isn’t it?

        It’s OK to negotiate the terms of your surrender with terrorists, but to tell the world the government’s secret agencies are listening to all electronic communications is a spying for an enemy; the enemy being the public whose mundane lives are being trawled for phrases that turn them into terrorist suspects.

        10

  • #
    Flat Earther

    Some may still scoff at the flat earth concept, however, using contemporary scientific methodology, a poll of members of the flat earth society reveals that more than half believe that the earth really is flat. What more proof could you need!

    This is, of course, a real poke in the eye for the flat earth deniers, and must leave them worrying about the future of their NASA funding.

    Some may also be wondering about why the major sea level rises forecast to accompany the reality of global warming have not eventuated. The simple answer is that, because the earth is flat, any increase in the sea level just spills over the edge.

    At least President Obama has recognised that the flat earth movement is a force to be reckoned with.

    110

    • #
      AndyG55

      “a poll of members of the flat earth society reveals that more than half believe that the earth really is flat”

      Oh.. I heard that it was 97% ! That’s a lot more than half… one could even say it was a consensus ! :-)

      70

      • #
        Graeme No.3

        Andy:
        97 percent believe in the flat earth.
        >50% believe in global warming.
        < 10% believe Lewandowsky's paper.
        That shows how gullible they are.

        10

  • #
    Ian Hill

    I looked at the site as long as I could – ie about five minutes.

    There’s also “The Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things”. Just a group of bored eccentrics wanting something to do.

    40

  • #
    AndyG55

    I know there is one group of climate scientists that uses a spherical Earth in their modelling..

    Can’t remember who though ;-)

    30

  • #
    Woodsy42

    Warming is a serious problem for flat earthers. When that ice wall round the edge melts in the heat everything will start falling off!

    50

  • #

    [...] Keep reading  →  (Jann Nova) Share this:FacebookLinkedInTwitter [...]

    00

  • #
    Olaf Koenders

    It’s truly a wonder of the age that such simpletons exist. What’s truly scary is that they vote – and drive!

    40

    • #
      Andrew McRae

      Yes they vote and drive…in very straight lines!

      20

    • #
      Yonniestone

      Yes and breed!, but it’s harder to find true love around the DISC,
      rumor has it that DISQUIS was invented for this purpose but failed due to many FLAT OUT rejections of LINEAR LOVE.
      Sorry :)

      20

  • #
    realist

    Flat Earth makes absolute sense. Large flat computer screens illustrate flat linear charts that look most impressive when expanded to Gore-like super large flat screens for the adulation of the Flat earthers. Bow and scrape to the God of Flat Earth! Trouble is, there will always be many “Copernicans” just over the “flat” horizon heading their way.

    The old depictions of the Flat Earth used to have an “end of the earth” waterfall, I suppose to warn off sceptics from getting too close to investigate the claim. Some sailing ships went over the horizon and never returned, so the evidence was clear and irrefutable. Having a ring of ice means two-bob each way, the freezers are coal powered and we can’t see them as they are located on the backside, just like many brains of FES members.

    “We have a consensus”. I recall having heard a born-again PM spouting this with religious zeal ad-nauseum. Perhaps his secret to “success” is he’s a paid up member of the FES.

    40

  • #
    D Cotton

    Yes – “such a group exists” and it’s called the IPCC and they base their models on a flat disc-shaped Earth. Then they invent weird fissics to “prove” to us they’re right.

    Let’s consider some facts. Is the Arctic warming? Yes, like everywhere else, with a long-term trend for 500 years rising out of the Little Ice Age at the rate of about half a degree per century, due to turn to cooling at least within 200 years. But is there a hockey stick? No.

    http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/2865/xkbx.jpg

    In fact the Arctic is no hotter than it was in the late 1930′s and early 1940′s.

    http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5030/pso0.jpg

    Is there a super-imposed 60 year natural cycle that caused all the alarm during the 30 years of rising prior to 1998? Yes.

    http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2496/otc3.png

    But it’s all natural – every bit of it. And it’s nothing whatsoever to do with carbon dioxide, radiative forcing, back radiation, greenhouse effects or any such travesties of physics.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      “In fact the Arctic is no hotter than it was in the late 1930′s and early 1940′s.”

      That’s pretty much true for everywhere on the globe.

      The ONLY thing that makes it look warmer now than in the 1930-40′s is the 0.5 degree “adjustment” created by Hansen et al.

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  • #
    RoyFOMR

    I suspect that 97% of flat-earthers have a sense of humour.
    I further suspect that for 98% of the time their computer-models project that, to all intents and purpose, the end-results tie in better with observations about day-to-day empiricism than 99% of cUrrent climate-models!
    I, personally, would find it far more enjoyable to spend time over a beer, or two, with an individual whom, however tongue-in-cheek, would stand their ground by arguing that, as far as they are concerned, the Earth is flat rather than the humourless zealots who truly put their faith via playstation simplifications that’ll cost trillions of real cash!
    Flat-earthers are, as Douglas Adams may have put it, mostly harmless; Climate-Catastrophes are decidely not!

    40

    • #
      michael hart

      Yes, that is pretty much my take on it. I recall reading about a UK flat earth society some years ago. It sounded like it was not a static grouping of people at all. Mostly just people who liked the idea of being eccentric, for whatever reason took their fancy. Nothing wrong with that as far as I can see, but true eccentrics don’t spend much time self-publicizing, IMO. A bit like MENSA was often described as the society for people who thought they were intelligent, but couldn’t prove it. Hence the obsession with little tests.

      10

  • #
    ROM

    Stephen Hawking in A Brief History Of Time starts with the anecdote.
    A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the
    sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

    At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: “What you have told us is rubbish.
    The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.”

    The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, “What is the tortoise standing on?”

    “You’re very clever, young man, very clever,”
    said the old lady. “But it’s turtles all the way down.”

    As with the flat earther’s Catastrophic Climate Warming Science ;

    It’s “Climate Models” all the way down.

    31

  • #
    tckev

    The war on coal is a big win for BIG OIL.

    30

  • #
    Byron

    Can`t let a whole post about flat earth go by without referencing ……The Great A`tuin

    20

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      Well we managed to get through 24 comment threads before somebody felt an overwhelming need to make an oblique reference to Terry Pratchett.

      OOK.

      10

  • #
    pat

    knew Murdoch media wouldn’t put this behind their paywall. more of the non-stop propaganda.

    27 June: Australian: HigherEducationSection: Graham Lloyd: Summer roasting ‘man-made’
    AUSTRALIA’S record temperatures last summer were substantially influenced by man-made climate change, researchers have found.
    The research, by the University of Melbourne and the ARC Centre of Excellence for Climate Systems Science, found natural climate variations alone were unlikely to explain the record temperatures.
    Researchers said the extreme heat was between 2 1/2 and five times more likely to be due to anthropogenic influences…
    The report, which has been accepted for publication in Geophysical Research Letters, used climate observations and more than 90 climate model simulations of summer temperatures in Australia over the past century…
    Records were broken on daily through to seasonal timescales.
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/summer-roasting-man-made/story-e6frgcjx-1226670447028

    btw Instant Morgan Poll is already claiming the coalition & labor are neck & neck, which would mean there was no fallout at all from female or other gillard supporters upset over her downfall! how convincing is that?

    all we need now is for Turnbull to return to the leadership of the Coalition, and the MSM will be satisfied.

    20

  • #
    Grant (NZ)

    In the early 1980s “The Wizard of Christchurch” (Ian Brackenbury-Channel) proposed a geo-peripheral universe. His theory was that the earth is a sphere, but we are on the inside and everything else is also within the sphere. So outer space was rally “inner space” and inside he earth. In order for his model to work, he maintained that only one law of physics needed to be changed – that light travels in straight lines. He theorised that light travels in circles and gives the illusion of the surface of the earth being convex when in fact it is concave.

    Now some people think the guy is loopy, but he is in fact a very bright guy. I don’t think he believed what he said for a minute – it was all show biz – but just by challenging one law of physics he created a new paradigm.

    Earth still doesn’t look flat to me. And CO2 is still a great source of plant nutrition.

    70

  • #
    pat

    CAGW alarmism’s primary purpose has always been to bring in an Emissions Trading Scheme, and Murdoch media is happy to shill for it:

    27 June: Courier Mail: Dennis Atkins: Party Games: Kevin Rudd takes up reins as Prime Minister with fresh choices
    On climate change, it could be as simple as saying he’d switch to a floating price – going straight to the intended emissions trading scheme – although that might need legislation.
    It would have revenue implications but would take the ***hated “carbon tax” off the table – not that Tony Abbott will be too concerned about this.
    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/party-games-kevin-rudd-takes-up-reins-as-prime-minister-with-fresh-choices/story-fnihsr9v-1226670452817

    ***we know it’s hated, (and would be by everyone if they were properly informed about the tax & the ETS), but why does Dennis Atkins throw that in when the MSM was reporting this UNBELIEVABLE poll just days ago!

    23 June: Sydney Morning Herald: Heath Aston: Fewer voters want carbon tax axed
    Tony Abbott’s insistence that the election will be a ”referendum on the carbon tax” has been undermined by polling showing just a third of voters support the Coalition’s plan to abolish the tax…
    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/fewer-voters-want-carbon-tax-axed-20130622-2opby.html

    20

    • #
      Bulldust

      What we are seeing here is the same ole Kev07 … this is his brand of “me too” politics which saw him mimic most of the Coalition’s policies in the run up to 2007′s election. Watch him get “tough on boats” as well to “defuse” that angle. Let’s not forget that he is the one that dropped the policies that stopped boats almost completely, and opened the flood gates encouraging thousands to take the perilous journeys, many to their deaths.

      I just hope the electorate is not stupid enough to believe him this time.

      20

  • #
    handjive

    Spot the “Flat Earthers.”

    Environment policy: where the parties stand

    Collated by By Sarah Clarke and Andrew Greene from the ABC environmental portal -

    International climate deal
    * ALP: Labor supports a global deal through the United Nations negotiations
    * Coalition: The Coalition supports the role of the UN and will be engaged in the international negotiations.
    * Greens: Greens support a legally binding global deal through the UN negotiations by 2015.
    .
    Say No to the unelected despots of the United Nations running your life.

    30

  • #
    pat

    Redfearn gets paid for writing this?

    27 June: Guardian: Graham Redfearn: Can Kevin Rudd protect Australia’s climate change crediblity?Climate policy faces an uncertain future after Julia Gillard’s departure, with carbon price for the chop if Tony Abbott is elected
    One of the only near certainties currently in Australian climate change policy is the target to cut emissions by five per cent, based on their levels in 2000. Both parties agree on this but after that, there are question marks everywhere.
    Climate change remains one of the most divisive and toxic issues in Australian politics and is one stuffed full of uncertainty. The Tea Party-like anti-carbon tax rallies which ran before the carbon price was voted through were bitter, abusive and scientifically illiterate.
    At a summit for grassroots climate campaigners in Sydney last week, many campaigners voiced fears of policy carnage for climate and renewable energy under a Liberal government. The Liberal Party has already pledged it will get rid of the Department of Climate Change.
    Abbott once described the science of climate change as “crap” but has also insisted he accepts the science, although he is known to be influenced by the writings of Professor Ian Plimer, a climate change sceptic and director of several mining companies, two of which are owned by billionaire Gina Rinehart. Abbott leads a party with several climate science denialists in its ranks in a country which exports more coal than any other on the planet.
    Across the Pacific, US President Barack Obama has been increasingly derogatory of climate science denial. In a stirring climate change speech a day before Rudd’s rise, Obama told the crowd at Georgetown that the US did not “have time for a meeting of the flat earth society”.
    Neither does Australia.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/planet-oz/2013/jun/26/kevin-rudd-australia-climate-change

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  • #
    jorgekafkazar

    You may laugh about the Flat Earthers, but did you know Columbus started out with four ships? The Niña, the Pinta, the Santa Maria, and the San Miguel. It’s been a closely kept secret that the San Miguel sailed over the edge and thus never returned to Spain. All mention of the fourth ship has been stricken from the historical record.

    30

  • #
    Frankly Sceptical

    I don’t know what you chaps are going on about its been well established that the earth is flat and supported by three elephants standing on a giant tortoise.
    http://ringingcedars.ning.com/profiles/blogs/flat-earth-3-elephants-and-a

    00

    • #
      Byron

      Heresy ! there are 4 elephants , there names are Berilia, Tubul, Great T’Phon and Jerakeen.

      00

      • #
        AndyG55

        OK smarty-pants.. What do the elephants eat ?

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          Rereke Whakaaro

          Chocolate covered coffee beans.

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            AndyG55

            No wonder they put on weight !!

            What does the turtle eat?

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              Byron

              A turtle the size of a planet ? It would eat pretty much anything it liked , can You imagine the size of the rolled up newspaper You`d need to rap it across the snout with while telling it “NO!” in a firm voice

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                AndyG55

                y’see, this is my problem..

                I can’t see how the turtle can get enough to eat from anywhere.

                and as the old saying goes..

                if ya don’t eat, ya don’t s**t..

                and if ya don’t s**t, ya die !!

                actually, come to think of it, its probably a very good thing the turtle doesn’t eat !!!

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              Rereke Whakaaro

              The coffee beans spat out by the elephants, of course … do try to keep up.

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    Frankly Sceptical

    Oops wrong model – a turtle otherwise he/she wouldn’t be able to swim.!!

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    pat

    tell me…is this how the ABC should be spending tax-payers’ money? it was bad enough having Murdoch media trying to set out Rudd’s agenda in the Dennis Atkins’ article i posted earlier, but this is publicly-funded media. there’s even a video to go with Ms. Caro’s advice, but i can’t bear to watch it:

    27 June: ABC: Katie Franklin: Redesigning Kevin: Ad expert Jane Caro on how Rudd can sell his message
    Advertising guru Jane Caro says Mr Rudd needs to switch the focus to the Opposition.
    “The Government is the devil we know, the Opposition is the devil we don’t know,” she said…
    Ms Caro warns Mr Rudd against making wholesale changes to popular Gillard policies, though she says he should also be himself.
    “The camera can see through phoniness like nothing else. It doesn’t like it and the people watching don’t like it so stay who you are.
    “The public always liked Kevin Rudd. They fell for him in 2007 and they’ve never quite given up on that romance. I said when [they first got] rid of him … that Australians wanted Kevin Rudd to be prime minister and they were going to stay in a permanent sulk until he was. I have a funny feeling that might be a bit of what has happened here.
    “I would be saying to Kevin Rudd, ‘You are a terrific campaigner, you proved that, you are entering into a campaign, that’s where your strengths lie. Concentrate on what you do best and that is (to) really connect with the Australian voter and campaign your heart out.”
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-27/how-does-kevin-rudd-convince-voters/4785818

    what a load of drivel…

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    pat

    this didn’t take long! u will not believe the turnbull/rudd giant billboard or whatever it is that accompanies this unattributed piece of PR. u all know i’m voting informally, but isn’t it abbott who actually does REAL WORK with/for the indigenous population?

    27 June: AdNews: Rudd and Turnbull team up
    One of Kevin Rudd’s first commitments as PM 2.0 will be fronting a national campaign in support of indigenous literacy with the man many wished he was facing off in the election, Malcolm Turnbull…
    The campaign will roll out across 30 Westfield centres around the country on digital panels. The creative was developed by Eleven…
    http://www.adnews.com.au/adnews/rudd-and-turnbull-team-up

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      MemoryVault

      .
      Pat, I’ve been telling you and the others for two years now that Gillard would be replaced by KRudd, and that Abbott was merely a caretaker for the LIBS, until that happened, at which point he would be replaced by Turnbull.

      The Powers That Be don’t care which one wins (KRudd or Turnbull). They get pretty-much the same policy package with both (see here). What they DON’T want is a landslide victory by anybody. A landslide victory and us voting minions just might actually start expecting them to DO something. You know, like what happened with Fraser.

      A reasonably close result in an election fought entirely on personal popularity of the leaders rather than on policy, is just the ticket, and precisely what you are going to get. A lot of pomp, and no circumstance – a bit like a beauty pageant. After that, back to business as usual.

      .
      PS – When you say you are going to vote informal I do hope you mean you’re going to vote for Themm.

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    pat

    the turnbull/rudd pr campaign in adnews is “wall of hands”, a project of the Australian Literacy & Numeracy Foundation, whose founder would seem to be in turnbull’s constituency:

    18 May: Women in Focus: Australian Literacy & Numeracy Foundation: Speaking easy: Australian Literacy and Numeracy Foundation
    The start of a movement
    Working as one of Australia’s leading Speech Pathologists in the wealthy Eastern Suburbs of Sydney, Mary-Ruth Mendel knew a lot of people in need couldn’t afford her help – so she did something about it. With her business partner Kim Kelly (pictured with Mary-Ruth), she founded The Australian Literacy and Numeracy Foundation, and together, they have since changed the lives of hundreds of refugee and Indigenous children in regional and remote Australia.
    https://www.womeninfocus.com.au/docs/DOC-1483

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    NoFixedAddress

    I’ve been saying for some time that The USA is our enemy.

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    • #
      Andrew McRae

      The people of the USA are our allies.

      The relationships within the Anglo-American realm are complex and we’re hardly going to be able to talk about it here. Not today anyway.

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    pat

    LinkedIn: Mary-Ruth Mendel
    Received the 2006 Best Community Project Award at the ***Ethical Investor’s 6th Australian Sustainability Awards for the design and delivery of her First Language Reading Course to Indigenous community members.
    Finalist in The Australian of the Year Awards 2008 – Local Hero Award NSW, and named Australia Day Ambassador each year from 2009. Served on the judging panel for the Prime Minister’s Literary Awards in 2010/2011 – Children’s and Young Adult Fiction
    http://au.linkedin.com/pub/mary-ruth-mendel/1a/751/177

    ***20 June: Ethical Investor: Ross Kendall: International investors will display climate change investments
    The development of a Low Carbon Investment Registry to showcase investor action to combat global warming was a major outcome of the First Global Investors Forum on Climate Change held in Hong Kong…
    The Registry will be open to institutional investors from around the world, with participants in the recent Global Investor Survey on Climate Change contributing the first entries. The GICOCC will publicly launch the Registry in early 2014…
    Video keynote speakers at the forum, Ban Ki-moon, United Nations secretary general and former US vice-president Al Gore, both stressed the essential role of the financial services industry in combating climate change.
    http://www.ethicalinvestor.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4743&Itemid=373

    Ethical Investor: Sustainability Awards
    http://www.ethicalinvestor.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=30&Itemid=420

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    Rereke Whakaaro

    Well we can all forget about whether or not the earth is flat.

    Here is the proof that the universe is flat.

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    Peter Wilson

    I’m sorry, I can’t quite grasp the concept of “global” warming on a flat disk. Shouldn’t it be planar warming or something like that?

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    EXPAT

    The flat earthers are probably all Christians. Their bible says the earth is flat (Rev. vii. 1).

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    Richard

    What? You’re kidding? Such an organization really exists? If I were Al Gore I would be paying them NOT to believe in CAGW.

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  • #
    Susan Fraser

    Good work Jo, very funny to know about this true ‘meeting of minds’

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    Flat Earther

    The earth is a flat disc supported by giant elephants standing on what can best be described as a mega-turtle. This is well known. The turtle may, in turn, possibly be supported by a column of similar turtles that extends all the way down. The science on this is not, as yet, settled.

    A less well known fact is that Gaia also lives in the middle of the back of the top turtle, and uses the earth disc to keep the rain off. Gaia is also reported to be angry with the effects of anything anthromorphic disturbing his equilibrium.

    This is probably understandable with regard to mining, drilling, and fraccing, any of which might start his roof leaking.

    But a further plausible reason for his anger might be to do with living at the centre of a circle of elephants – all facing outwards. Hopefully (and, unlike the science), we trust that their stomachs all remain settled.

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    Joe V.

    There’s an awful lot of shale gas under that flat earth.

    British Geological Survey new estimates of World’s biggest shale basin under England.
    Courtesy of GWPF

    Hmm… Maybe have to rethink that Scottish Independence.

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    Bite Back

    It’s a piece of useless trivia that’s good for useless conversations.

    No truer statement has ever been made.

    The whole of this climate change debate has been in that category for a long time. I don’t have the slightest clue about how they keep its dead corpse standing up and talking day after day. It’s hard to believe that even the smell of money could keep the thing so active for so long. Zombies would be an understatement.

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    crakar24

    This is for Tony

    http://www.cleanenergyfuture.gov.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/one-year-on.pdf

    Caution: Contents may affend some viewers

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      MemoryVault

      .
      If you are “offended” by the pdf, whatever you do, don’t go to the actual website.

      http://www.cleanenergyfuture.gov.au/

      http://www.cleanenergyfuture.gov.au is the Australian Government’s official website that outlines the Government’s plan for prosperous and sustainable Australia. The website also provides opportunity for Australians to join the discussion on a clean energy future through our Twitter, Facebook,or YouTube channels or staying connected via our newsletter or our RSS feeds.

      Emphasis added

      Isn’t that good to know – there is an official government website for all this info. Of course, there’s also this:

      DISCLAIMER
      Use your Own Judgment or Seek Professional Advice

      The material on this website is presented for the purpose of providing information and encouraging public discussion.

      While we use reasonable endeavours to monitor the quality and currency of the information that we post on this website, we do not guarantee and accept no legal liability whatsoever arising from, or in connection with, the accuracy, reliability, currency or completeness of this material.

      We recommend that you exercise your own skill and care with respect to your use of this material or seek professional advice when appropriate.

      So, despite being the “official government website” on the subject, it accepts absolutely no responsibility for the information contained therein.

      .
      You have to laugh.
      It’s less traumatic than weeping.

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        Why do I even bother?

        What a load of bovine waste. More spin than ‘Dainty’ Ironmonger.

        They proudly proclaim that Renewables provide almost 12.8% of all power being consumed, and the chart they provide shows something the average person cannot work out without some electrical background.

        Of that 12.8%, Hydro is 9.8% of that, Wind makes up 2.4% of that, and all solar (including rooftop solar) makes up 0.6% of that.

        They say that they want to get that renewables figure up to 20% by 2020.

        OK then, let’s ballpark.

        You guess how much new hydro will be approved, and zero would be a very close number.

        So that means the Hydro part of the proposed 20% total drops from 9.8% to 6.1%.

        Solar will only ever hover around the 1% mark.

        So that means the bulk of it will have to come from wind, then that means a construction of around 12,000MW of NEW wind power, or a further 4000 wind towers to add to the existing 1200 or so, and that’s with each huge tower topped by a 3MW Nacelle/Generator.

        So, 12,000MW, and using the proposed King Island plant (500MW for $2 Billion) there’s a cost of $48 Billion, and in 7 years there’s $7 Billion a year, each year from now on, and going on current formulas, with the Government throwing in half the up front cost, there’s $3.5 Billion a year.

        That’s not the end of it though, because they’ll have to keep going because these things only have a hoped for life span of 25 years, and 15 would be closer to the truth, so that level of construction would need to continue.

        Can you see even constant Labor Governments approving that much each year for wind plants?

        Even if they did, I can’t see private companies engaging on construction of that level.

        Considering there’s a three year time frame between the original proposal and construction starting, that time frame now halves. So, let’s start immediately, and that there are now three extra NEW plants ready to go to the approvals process, on top of the ones we already know about now, so that now comes in at around 3 to 4 new wind plants a year, so with that 3 year approvals process, we now need 6 to 8 new plants a year from 2016 to 2020, finished, online and delivering power, just to reach their 20% target by 2020.

        Can you see how ridiculous this all now becomes. There is no way that sort of plan can actually happen, and that’s provided they get companies to actually do something on this scale.

        Only the most ardent wind believers could think this can happen.

        It won’t.

        Meanwhile, what do those wind plant supporters do when this happens.

        Yesterday afternoon, and evening. just as the Peak power consumption started, and power consumption rose to 28,000MW, those existing 1200 wind towers already here in Australia supplied 100MW, 0.35% of all power being consumed, and as that evening Peak continued for the next 6 hours, wind power delivery dropped even further. Of those 1200 towers, barely 25 to 30 were actually turning during that 6 hour period.

        You can have all the wind towers you like, but if the wind doesn’t blow you’ve got nothing, except the old reliables that is.

        Wind Performance Thursday 27Jun2013

        Tony.

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    RoyFOMR

    I’ve been privileged to exist for six and a half decades according to my BC.
    Not fallen off the Edge yet and I’ve travelled hundreds of miles.
    Ergo the earth must be flat and anything, climatically, that happened more recently than three-score years ago must be unprecedented!

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    pat

    MemoryVault -

    i’m voting for none of the above. still waiting for some independently-minded people to form a viable political party
    that will focus on what is good for australia.

    however, i do not think, with a election campaign in full swing, that turnbull should be pictured with rudd as part of a PR campaign that is visititing major shopping malls around the country. that should be stopped in its tracks.

    27 June: UK Daily Will Robinson: Rare bird last seen in Britain 22 years ago killed by wind turbine in front of crowd of twitchers who turned up to catch a glimpse
    There had been only eight recorded sightings of the white-throated needletail in the UK since 1846. So when one popped up again on British shores this week, twitchers were understandably excited.
    A group of 40 enthusiasts dashed to the Hebrides to catch a glimpse of the brown, black and blue bird, which breeds in Asia and winters in Australasia.
    But instead of being treated to a wildlife spectacle they were left with a horror show when it flew into a wind turbine and was killed…
    Lewis and Harris, technically one island, already has a number of wind farms, with several more planned in future…
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2350267/Rare-bird-seen-Britain-22-years-ago-killed-wind-turbine-crowd-twitchers-turned-catch-glimpse.html

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    • #

      Rare bird last seen in Britain 22 years ago killed by wind turbine in front of crowd of twitchers who turned up to catch a glimpse
      There had been only eight recorded sightings of the white-throated needletail in the UK since 1846. So when one popped up again on British shores this week, twitchers were understandably excited.
      A group of 40 enthusiasts dashed to the Hebrides to catch a glimpse of the brown, black and blue bird, which breeds in Asia and winters in Australasia.
      But instead of being treated to a wildlife spectacle they were left with a horror show when it flew into a wind turbine and was killed…

      When asked for a comment, one wind plant supporter replied ….. “See, we told you it was extinct. Don’t you people ever listen?”

      Tony.

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      Joe V.

      “Wind energy makes a vital contribution towards mitigating the impacts of climate change, which is the biggest threat to our native birds and wildlife.”

      The Rare Bird Alert, an online service that notifies users of sightings, yesterday morning tweeted:

      ‘The white-throated needletail on Harris flew into a wind turbine and has died.
      ‘Pathetic way for such an amazing bird to die.’

      Pathetic way for another another nature loving membership organisation to have been sacrificed to political Deep Green ideology.

      It is not the first time a bird-watching trip has ended in tragedy. On a previous outing, a group of twitchers in the Hebrides had seen a migratory wryneck hit by a train.

      The Spectator

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        Flat Earther

        I Australia, a proposed wind farm project was cancelled because of the perceived threat to the extremely rare invisible parrot.

        This parrot has never actually been seen, but it is thought to be known to occasionally traverse the wind farm site, or perhaps somewhere else. This is another good example of the prudent application of the precautionary principle.

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      Eddie Sharpe

      It is not the first time a bird-watching trip has ended in tragedy. On a previous outing, a group of twitchers in the Hebrides had seen a migratory wryneck hit by a train.

      The harsh reality, that may have escaped most commentators, is that trains are probably rarer than both wrynecks and the white throated needle tail, in the Hebrides.

      The Great Railway Journeys of the World need to take the bus there.

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      GreensInCharge

      The low frequency noise from wind turbines disturbs the bird’s navigation systems.
      Without eyes in the sides & backs of their head, they probably aren’t going to see the smack coming though.

      At least traditional windmills, with canvas sails, were more yielding and forgiving on a collision.

      Either fabric blades should be required or
      Anti nesting devices & wailing sirens should be added to operating wind farm sites to keep the birds away ( if we really cared about our nature).

      10

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    Peter C

    WATER WATER EVERYWHERE!

    Look at how big the oceans are when you project the map of the earth in that way.

    10

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    pat

    28 June: UK Daily Telegraph: Simon Benson: Prime Minister Kevin Rudd aiming to dump carbon tax for emissions trading scheme
    KEVIN Rudd will push to dump the carbon tax and go straight to an emissions trading scheme in a bid to unshackle the government from the politically toxic policy.
    The Daily Telegraph understands the carbon tax, which is due to rise by $1.15 per tonne to $24.15 next week, will top the agenda when the new Prime Minister convenes his first cabinet meeting, scheduled for Monday…
    However, in a signal that he would conduct a consensus government, Mr Rudd indicated to colleagues no changes would be made without approval of the cabinet…
    Axing the current fixed price for a market-based floating price could see the cost drop to as little as $6 a tonne.
    It’s estimated the move could cost the government several billion dollars in lost revenue…
    Such a change would require legislation, which the Greens have indicated they would not support…
    Greens leader Christine Milne today said any changed position Mr Rudd takes is electioneering because Parliament will have risen.
    ”He has backflipped on climate so much I don’t think people will really trust him to actually respond to the science,” she told ABC Radio.
    ”He will be much more interested into caving into business and caving into the big miners than responding to the climate crisis.”…
    Opposition climate action spokesman Greg Hunt said the government’s carbon policy was wrong and an Abbott government would axe the carbon tax – whatever name it was called…
    ”A tweaking of what the carbon tax may look like in the next year or two won’t change what the carbon tax will be for the next five, 10, 20 years,”’ he (Liberal senator Simon Birmingham) told reporters in Canberra today.
    ***The tax would increase by 150 per cent to $38 in 2020, and reach $350 by 2050…
    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/prime-minister-kevin-rudd-aiming-to-dump-carbon-tax-for-emissions-trading-scheme/story-fni0cx12-1226671097897

    Camco puts CDM business into “hibernation” as losses mount
    LONDON, June 27 (Reuters Point Carbon) – Camco Clean Energy, one of the largest project developers under the U.N.’s Clean Development Mechanism (CDM), will no longer automatically apply for carbon credits in an attempt to stem losses caused by a 98-percent crash in offset prices in five years…
    http://www.pointcarbon.com/news/1.2437283?&ref=searchlist

    Forestry sell-off keeps NZ carbon near record lows
    LONDON, June 27 (Reuters Point Carbon) – New Zealand carbon permits stayed near record lows this week as emitters stockpiled cheap permits from foresters seeking to exit the market…
    http://www.pointcarbon.com/news/1.2437038?&ref=searchlist

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    pat

    28 June: ABC: Peter Ryan: Business groups pushing for Kevin Rudd to make changes to the carbon tax
    Mr Rudd looks poised to put the carbon tax on the table in cabinet on Monday, but it would be very difficult to unwind the scheme.
    The $23 dollar-per-tonne carbon price came into place on July 1 last year, and on Monday it goes up by 2.5 per cent to $24.15 a tonne.
    It will not move to a floating price in line with the European Union until mid-2015, so the Australian carbon price is set to remain inflated for another two years…
    European companies have been buying fewer carbon permits, so the price over there has dived to around just $6 a tonne.
    So the suggestion that with the stroke of a pen the carbon price could be switched to be in line with the floating European scheme might sound good for industry and consumers, but it could put a hole in the government’s revenue forecasts – perhaps as much as ***$15 billion…
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-28/business-pushing-for-carbon-tax-changes/4787116?section=act

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    pat

    the closest the Coalition has come to plainly stating they will no have an ETS, or any price on carbon dioxide. wish Greg Hunt could state the position more clearly though:

    VIDEO: 28 June: Brisbane Times: Coalition: ETS is still a tax (08:02)
    Greg Hunt, shadow environment minister, says any changes to the carbon tax under Rudd will still hit business hard and that carbon pricing has got to go.
    http://media.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/national-times/coalition-ets-is-still-a-tax-4527202.html

    10

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    pat

    stop closing down coal-fired power stations! build new ones as well, & stop the entire CAGW scam:

    27 June: UK Daily Mail: Electricity to be rationed: Power cuts in 2 years unless industry cuts back, warns regulator
    By Sean Poulter, James Chapman, Nick Mcdermott and Peter Campbell
    Britain could face a return to Seventies-style power rationing to prevent blackouts.
    The disturbing news came amid warnings that the country may not be producing enough energy to keep the lights on by 2015.
    Offices and factories could be ‘bribed’ to close for up to four hours a day during the winter to prevent households losing power.
    ***Energy regulator Ofgem said the country faced an ‘unprecedented challenge’ as coal-fired plants are closed by European Union diktats on the environment…
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2349719/Blackout-alert-Electricity-rationed-Power-cuts-2-years-unless-industry-cuts-warns-regulator.html

    28 June: Guardian: Nuclear power gets £10bn financial guarantee boost
    Ministers respond to warnings that UK is on brink of power blackouts with support for French generator EDF to build Hinkley Point nuclear power plant
    Patrick Wintour and Phillip Inman
    Michael Fallon, the energy minister, insisted the substantial guarantees represented a commercial loan, not a subsidy, saying: “This is big-scale financing, not available in the markets.” He added that similar government guarantees had been offered to Drax power station to convert from coal to biomass…
    ***EDF had already prepared the site next to the two existing stations, but would not commit to the project unless the government guaranteed a minimum price for the electricity the new reactor would produce…
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/jun/27/nuclear-power-10billion-financial-guarantee

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    tckev

    They call us ‘flat earthers’ but we know these ‘weather deniers’ don’t really mean it.

    00

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    iknownothing

    Your all wrong, the earth is a triangle you just need your 4D glasses on to see it

    00

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    Mike M

    In fact, all of our physical contact with our surroundings are in two dimensions. Our retinas are surfaces that can only detect two dimensional images. Our visual cortex ‘invents’ a third dimension via parallax and focus, etc.

    True perspective of 3 dimensional space can only be from a 4th dimension in which we do not exist – just as true 2 dimensional space can only be perceived from a 3rd.

    So until one us escapes into 4 dimensional space and then comes back to verify what our 3 dimensional existence actually ‘looks’ like, (assuming we’d be able to understand what they told us) – I’m holding out that ‘this’ could all very well be an illusion.

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    Sonny

    The earth is actually hollow – As are all the planets and our moon.
    Scientists refuse to acknowledge this openly this because it would mean admitting that they have absolutely no explanation for planetary formation.

    The slur “flat earther” will one day be replaced with “solid earther”.

    Also oil is not the remains of dinosaurs. That’s just silly.

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    The flat earth myth
    by Jonathan Sarfati

    ©iStockphoto.com/InkkStudios | Nebula: NASA/CXC/Penn State/L. Townsley et al.
    For the last 200 years or so, many anti-Christians have resorted to a scurrilous lie (acting consistently with their worldview1): that the early and medieval Christian Church taught that the earth is flat.2

    One of the most prominent recent examples is probably the most powerful man in the world, the US President Barack Hussein Obama:

    “Let me tell you something. If some of these folks [sic] were around when Columbus set sail–[laughter]–they must have been founding members of the Flat Earth Society [laughter]. They would not have believed that the world was round [applause]. We’ve heard these folks in the past.”3
    Since President Obama also supports infanticide and gay ‘marriage’,4 which are clearly out of line with biblical teaching, should it be surprising that he would also repeat one of the commonest anti-Christian fables?

    We hope you enjoy this sneak preview from the soon-to-be-released Creation magazine. Subscribers will be delighted with the magazine’s powerful content and brilliant graphics. You can subscribe here. What did the early church really teach?
    Historian Jeffrey Burton Russell (1934–) thoroughly demolished the flat earth myth over 20 years ago in his definitive study Inventing the Flat Earth.5

    The famous evolutionist Stephen Jay Gould (1941–2002) favourably reviewed this masterpiece:

    “There never was a period of ‘flat earth darkness’ among scholars (regardless of how the public at large may have conceptualized our planet both then and now). Greek knowledge of sphericity never faded, and all major medieval scholars accepted the earth’s roundness as an established fact of cosmology.”6
    Russell showed that flat-earth belief was extremely rare in the Church. The flat earth’s two main proponents were obscure figures named Lactantius and Cosmas Indicopleustes (meaning “voyager to India”). However, they were hugely outweighed by tens of thousands of Christian theologians, poets, artists, scientists, and rulers who unambiguously affirmed that the earth was round. Russell documents accounts supporting earth’s sphericity from numerous medieval church scholars such as friar Roger Bacon (1220–1292), inventor of spectacles; leading medieval scientists such as John Buridan (1301–1358) and Nicholas Oresme (1320–1382); the monk John of Sacrobosco (c. 1195–c. 1256) who wrote Treatise on the Sphere, and many more.

    One of the best-known proponents of a globe-shaped earth was the early English monk, theologian and historian, the Venerable Bede (673–735), who popularized the common BC/ AD dating system. Less well known was that he was also a leading astronomer of his day.7

    In his book On the Reckoning of Time (De temporum ratione), among other things he calculated the creation of the world to be in 3952 BC, showed how to calculate the date of Easter, and explicitly taught that the earth was round. From this, he showed why the length of days and nights changed with the seasons, and how tides were dragged by the moon. Bede was the first with this insight, while Galileo explained the tides wrongly centuries later.8

    Here is what Bede said about the shape of the earth—round “like a ball” not “like a shield”:

    “We call the earth a globe, not as if the shape of a sphere were expressed in the diversity of plains and mountains, but because, if all things are included in the outline, the earth’s circumference will represent the figure of a perfect globe. … For truly it is an orb placed in the centre of the universe; in its width it is like a circle, and not circular like a shield but rather like a ball, and it extends from its centre with perfect roundness on all sides.”
    And the leading church theologian of the middle ages, Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274), wrote in his greatest work Summa Theologica/Theologiae:

    “The physicist proves the earth to be round by one means, the astronomer by another: for the latter proves this by means of mathematics, e.g. by the shapes of eclipses, or something of the sort; while the former proves it by means of physics, e.g. by the movement of heavy bodies towards the centre, and so forth.”9
    Orbs of medieval rulers

    Figure 3: Richard II of England, coronation portrait, Westminster Abbey.
    Credit: Wikipedia.org

    Figure 2: Henry III, Holy Roman Emperor (1017–1056), being presented with the orb of kingship.
    Credit: Wikipedia.org

    Figure 3: Coin of the Byzantine emperor Leontius (d. 705)
    Credit: CC-BY-SA Classical Numismatic Group, Inc. http://www.cngcoins.com
    As early as the 5th century, medieval European kings carried a symbol called the globus cruciger, Latin for ‘cross-bearing orb’, as a Christian symbol of royal power. The orb, usually a golden sphere, represented the earth—hang on, a sphere representing a flat earth—something’s wrong here … oh that’s right, it was a spherical earth. It was topped by a cross to symbolise Christ’s lordship over the earth, and held by the ruler to symbolise that he had been entrusted to rule his lands. In medieval portraits, the scale didn’t indicate physical size but importance, hence the large size of the cross.

    Indeed, there are many pictures portraying Christ Himself holding the orb, the classic Salvator Mundi (Saviour of the World) theme.

    Why did people oppose Columbus?
    The above demonstrate that Columbus (1451–1506) was never opposed by flat earthers, simply because there were none to oppose him, among either church or political leaders. So what was the real issue?

    Columbus was trying to reach India by sea, the ‘long way’ around the earth. But to do that, his ships had to carry enough provisions for the length of the journey. He had learned that the 9th-century Persian astronomer Alfraganus had estimated each degree of latitude spanned “56⅔ miles”. But Columbus thought Alfraganus meant the Roman mile (1,480 m, 4,856 ft), whereas he was using the Arabic mile (1,830 m, 6,004 ft). Thus Columbus thought that the earth’s circumference was only about ¾ of its actual length of about 40,000 km (25,000 miles). Columbus also greatly underestimated the distance between Japan and the Canary Islands as 3,000 Italian miles (3,700 km or 2,300 miles), whereas the distance by sea is more like 19,600 km (12,200 miles).

    It was thus the size of the earth, not the shape, that was under dispute. His critics argued that ships of his day (1492) could not carry enough fresh water and food for such a huge journey. And they were right! Columbus was just lucky that an enormous continent was in the way. He knew nothing of previous Viking discoveries centuries earlier. And he still thought he had landed in the East Indies, the then-current name for the Indian subcontinent. The results of his mistake persist today, in the common name for the Native Americans—‘Indians’, a translation of Columbus’ Spanish term ‘indios’.

    Sailors
    An example of the misinformation in the ‘education’ system comes from the 20th-century high-school history textbook The American Pageant by Thomas Bailey. Many of its editions claimed, “The superstitious sailors [of Columbus’ crew] … grew increasingly mutinous … because they were fearful of sailing over the edge of the world.”

    However, sailors were well aware of the shape of the earth. One myth states that people realized that the earth was round because they saw ships slowly sinking below the horizon. But before telescopes, it was more likely the other way round: sailors returning to land saw high mountains before lowlands.

    Also, sailors from the northern hemisphere crossed the equator well before Christ, and reported that in the South, the sun shone from the north. They also knew how to measure their latitude from the angle of the sun at noon, which works only with a spherical earth.
    The rise of the Flat Earth lie
    The above are the facts about Columbus. The much-parroted flat-earth myth about him comes not from history but from the tales of Washington Irving (1783–1859), The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus (1828). Irving was probably America’s first genuine best-selling writer, but he admitted that he was “apt to indulge in the imagination.” Flat-earth belief was certainly a figment of his imagination.

    It was bad enough that this myth entered the public perception thanks to Irving’s wide readership. But it became worse when it acquired the veneer of scholarship, so it could be used as a club with which to bash Christianity. The main propagandists for this cause were the notorious 19th century anti-Christian bigots John William Draper (1811–1882) and Andrew Dickson White (1832–1918). Draper, a fine chemist and photographer—first president of the American Chemical Society—but a lousy historian, wrote History of the Conflict between Religion and Science (1874) as a poorly informed polemic against the Church. White was a disgruntled ex-Episcopalian and the founder of Cornell University as the first explicitly secular university in the United States. He also published the two-volume work History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (1896).

    Both authors relied heavily on the work of Cosmas, portraying his flat-earth teaching as typical rather than the almost forgotten, extreme minority view that it was. And they are the ones most responsible for the discredited ‘conflict thesis’ between Christianity and science, instead of the real history that the Christian world-view was responsible for science in the first place, while it was still-born in other places like ancient Greece and China.10

    Colin Russell (1928– ), Emeritus Professor of History of Science and Technology at the Open University, writes:

    “Draper takes such liberty with history, perpetuating legends as fact that he is rightly avoided today in serious historical study. The same is nearly as true of White, though his prominent apparatus of prolific footnotes may create a misleading impression of meticulous scholarship.”11
    Both J.B. Russell and Gould argue that Draper and White had an agenda to discredit Christians who opposed the then-new theories of Darwin as ‘flat earthers’. Nothing much has changed!

    Flat earth leader is an evolutionist
    Although hardly anyone in the Church has ever believed the flat earth myth, “Incredibly, some people still do,” wrote Natalie Wolchover in Live Science last year:

    “The Flat Earth Society is an active organization currently led by a Virginian man named Daniel Shenton. Though Shenton believes in evolution and global warming, he and his hundreds, if not thousands, of followers worldwide also believe that the Earth is a disc that you can fall off of.”12
    So next time an evolutionist calls you a ‘flat-earther’, point out that the leading flat-earther is one of his fellow evolutionists!

    Lunar eclipse
    Ancient proof of round earth

    Figure 4: Time-lapse photos of the moon during a lunar partial eclipse, clearly showing the circular shadow produced by the ball-shaped earth.
    The ancient Greeks well before Christ had realized that the earth is a globe, by observing lunar eclipses. They realized that at such times, the earth was between the moon and the sun, and it always cast a circular shadow, regardless of the direction, which proves that it’s a globe (see Fig. 4). For example, the famous philosopher Aristotle (384–322 BC) said:

    “Either then the earth is spherical or it is at least naturally spherical. And it is right to call anything that which nature intends it to be, and which belongs to it, rather than which it is by constraint and contrary to nature. The evidence of the senses further corroborates this. How else would eclipses of the moon show segments shaped as we see them? As it is, the shapes which the moon itself each month shows are of every kind—straight, gibbous, and concave—but in eclipses the outline is always curved: and, since it is the interposition of the earth that makes the eclipse, the form of this line will be caused by the form of the earth’s surface, which is therefore spherical.”13
    This lines up with the Bible: Isaiah 40:22 tells us that God “sits above the circle of the earth”. Indeed, the Hebrew word חוּג (khûg) implies ball-shaped, just as Bede taught about 1,400 years after Isaiah.

    Summary
    Almost all the early and medieval church scholars who commented on the earth’s shape explicitly said it was round.

    Medieval European rulers used a golden sphere or orb called the globus cruciger to represent the earth under Christ’s rule.

    Columbus’s opponents never disputed the shape of the earth, but only its size—and they were right!

    The flat earth myth began with a fictional account of Columbus in the 19th century by Washington Irving. Then it was aggressively pushed in influential anti-Christian polemics by Draper and White.

    A final irony: the leading flat-earther today is an evolutionist.

    Related Articles
    •Is the ’erets (earth) flat?
    •Galileo Quadricentennial
    •The Greatest Hoax on Earth?
    •Flat earth leader is an evolutionist!
    •The flat-earth myth and creationism
    Further Reading
    •Does the Bible really teach a flat earth?
    References and notes
    1.Sarfati, J., Evolutionist: it’s OK to deceive students to believe evolution, creation.com/deceive, 24 September 2008. Return to text.
    2.For many examples, see Bergman, J., The flat-earth myth and creationism, J. Creation 22(2):114–120, 2008; creation.com/flat. Return to text.
    3.Obama, B.H., Speech on energy at Prince George’s County Community College, Largo, MD, 15 March 2012. Return to text.
    4.Muehlenberg, B., The Obamanator and the Decline of the West, billmuehlenberg.com, 12 May 2012; Sarfati, J., Gay ‘marriage’ and the consistent outcome of Genesis compromise, creation.com/gay, June 2012. Return to text.
    5.Russell, J.B., Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus & Modern Historians, Praeger, 1991. Return to text.6.Gould, S.J., The Late Birth of a Flat Earth, in: Dinosaur in a Haystack: Reflections in Natural History, 1st paperback ed., pp. 38–50, New York: Three Rivers Press, NY,1997. Return to text.
    7.Henderson, T., World-famous astronomers celebrate the Venerable Bede, The Journal, journallive.co.uk, 13 February 2009. Return to text.
    8.The Galileo affair is another anti-Christian myth of ‘religion v. Science’, although it was really science vs. science. See Sarfati, J., Galileo Quadricentennial: Myth vs fact, Creation 31(3):49–51; creation.com/galileo-quadricentennial. Return to text.
    9.Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Question 54: The distinction of habits, Article 2, Reply to objection 2. Return to text.
    10.Primary source documentation is available in my articles, Why does science work at all? Creation 31(3):12–14, 2009; creation.com/whyscience; and, The biblical roots of modern science, Creation 32(4):32–36, 2010; creation.com/roots. Return to text.
    11.Russell, C.A., “The Conflict of Science and Religion”, in: Encyclopedia of the History of Science and Religion, p. 15, New York 2000. Return to text.
    12.Wolchover, N., Ingenious ‘Flat Earth’ Theory Revealed In Old Map, Live Science, 23 June 2011. Return to text.
    13.Works of Aristotle I: p. 389. Return to text.

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