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Should you shoot your goat or feed it to stop the storms? Oh the dilemma.

Who knew? Sometimes you should feed goats to prevent floods and droughts. Other times you should shoot them to get the same outcome. Confused? In times gone by you would need to ask the tribal witchdoctor. Now, in the post-modern period, talk to a climate scientist.

Steve Goreham highlights some Global Stupidity in the Washington Times.  In case you didn’t know, for writing things like this his books get burned. It could only happen in a centre for higher education.

– Jo

Shepherd or Shoot Goats in the Name of Climate Change

By Steve Goreham

Originally published in The Washington Times.

O’Hare airport will finally get its goats. The Department of Aviation of the City of Chicago has awarded a contract to a private firm to provide 25 goats to munch vegetation at the city’s airport. These “green lawn mowers” will help reduce carbon dioxide emissions to sustain the planet.

Last fall, when the project was bid, Amy Malick, head of sustainability at the Department of Aviation, commented on the planned use of goats in hard-to-mow areas, “They may have steep slopes, very hard to get to with heavy machinery, and those machines also emit pollution. They’re burning fossil fuel. So as a sustainability initiative we’re looking to bring in animals that do not have emissions associated with them, at least to the same extent that heavy machinery would.”

A shepherd will herd the goats across 120 acres at four different sites on airport property. The 25 fuzzy critters are expected to clear vegetation each day from a square at least sixteen feet on a side.

Chicago is not the first city to employ animals to reduce airport vegetation. Sheep are used at the Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport and goats are used at San Francisco International. Seattle-Tacoma International Airport deployed goats as early as 2008, but stopped because “it was not cost effective.” How can a guy with a lawn mower be as cost effective as a herd of goats?

A single one-way Boeing 747 flight from Chicago to London emits about 200 tons of carbon dioxide, or about 5,000 times the annual emissions from a gasoline-powered lawn mower of a homeowner. It appears that emissions savings from O’Hare goats will be relatively small. But what about methane emissions from the herd?

On the other side of the world, about 10,000 miles from Chicago, the government of Australia has a different solution for global warming. More than a million wild camels, called “feral” camels, roam the outback of Australia. They munch up the foliage and emit methane, a potent greenhouse gas, from both the nose end and the tail end. Each camel produces more than one ton of CO2-equivalent emissions per year. Feral goats are also part of this severe climate problem.

But the enlightened Australian government passed the Carbon Farming Initiative Act in December of 2011. The act calls for “The reduction of methane emissions through the management, in a humane manner, of feral goats, feral deer, feral pigs, or feral camels.” “Management” companies are now flying over the outback, shooting goats and camels from helicopters, and earning carbon credits. Maybe the Aussies should use goats instead of lawn mowers at airports?

So goats are both grazed and shot to reduce those evil carbon dioxide emissions. It’s all part of this mad, mad, mad world of Climatism.

Steve Goreham is Executive Director of the Climate Science Coalition of America and author of the new book, The Mad, Mad, Mad world of Climatism:  Mankind and Climate Change Mania.

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Should you shoot your goat or feed it to stop the storms? Oh the dilemma., 9.0 out of 10 based on 69 ratings

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168 comments to Should you shoot your goat or feed it to stop the storms? Oh the dilemma.

  • #
    Yonniestone

    Many years ago I thought this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g was not only funny but a good example of how far we’ve progressed scientifically from those times.
    Sadly I’m not laughing now.

    142

    • #
      JohnB

      I guess burning witches would be carbon neutral.

      A witch biofeul power plant might be in order.

      There are always goats and deniiers as backup.

      102

      • #
        Andrew McRae

        I guess burning witches would be carbon neutral.

        That is not true. Some global warming predictions have literally been based on MAGICC.
        Therefore by burning the witches before they can use their MAGICC, there will be no dangerous warming from carbon.

        As you can see I am an entirely logical thinker and my skills are available for hire to the climate science establishment for a very modest fee. In exchange for Flannery’s salary I will work the same hours but be wrong half as often.

        170

      • #
        john robertson

        Actually I read somewhere, that when the first railways were built in Egypt, that mummies were cheaper than coal.
        How true? I do not know, just a fragment of trivia that stuck.

        30

    • #
      turnedoutnice

      ClimateGoat I.

      10

  • #

    Unlike the camels, I guess the goats have got some PR working for them.

    Not sure what they are letting themselves in for though. Goats are excellent recycling plants. Tyres, windscreen wipers, car door/window/body trim, even the paper labels on tin cans – all gets efficiently processed.
    Not a good idea to turn your back on one either ….

    110

    • #
      gai

      You are maligning the poor goats. All of mine are friendly and will follow me if given half a chance.

      Goats and sheep do make good lawn mowers. The company I worked for in the 1970′s used them instead of lawn mowers and the solar farm down the street uses lambs.

      The Australian government seems to be taking the US government as a model only we slaughtered Bison and nearly drove them to extinction. The down side of shooting and not removing the carcasses is you provide a lot of easy food for a while, get a surge in predator population and then when you stop the killing the predators come looking for other easy prey.

      The USA now has coyotes moving into the cities snatching dogs, cats and toddlers. A family friend’s 4 year old daughter was attacked and her father had to repeatedly drive it off with a shovel. The coyote even managed to knock him down and both bitten. link

      70

      • #

        Part of the reason the US has coyotes moving into cities is the animal rights people have talked people into thinking coyotes are just cute and cuddly like your dog. It’s lie, but people are so far removed from nature you could probably convince them penguins lived in downtown Chicago with a bit of photoshopping. People pet deers, let them eat from picnic tables and come in their homes, thinking it’s cute. They have no concept of what a wild animal is. Then they are shocked when the buck deer gores them or the coyote eats the family cat or bites the toddler. Clueless people…..

        60

        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          I was stopped in the street, a few months ago, by a woman who wanted donations for one of the many environmental organisations. I asked what she was particularly concerned about. She replied that she was worried about the decline of penguins in Antartica. She then claimed that, because of climate change, they were being eaten by Killer Whales, and Polar Bears.

          Regrettably, I was laughing so hard, I could not find my wallet.

          170

        • #
          timg56

          Considering that cats are deemed the greatest predator of birds and small mammals, having coyotes eating them may be an overall plus.

          10

    • #
      Rod Stuart

      I use camelids for lawnmowers.
      Alpacas are quiet, don’t smell, they dung pile, (all of them defecate and urinate in only one spot, which makes it a breeze to load up the fertiliser into a barrow), they don’t dag like sheep, they don’t get sick like sheep, they will herd up and kick the living shit out of any dog (and with razors on each hoof they can and will disembowel them), they are hardy and require little other than simple shelter from the wind and rain and a good source of clean water. They have no upper teeth, so shear the grass (like sheep) rather than tear it from the soil like cattle and horses. As lawn mowers, I believe them superior to most livestock, since they eat weeds as well before they go to seed.
      Besides that, they are fun and intelligent beasts. Myths that they spit are nonsense, IF they are treated with respect. Neither I nor my wife have ever been spit upon. It is however, the camel equivalent of swearing, because I have on occasion spit on one of them as a matter of discipline, and it is far more effective than a verbal dressing down. The annual fibre harvest, although not of any particular value, is of very fine denier and one day we will spin a few sacks of it into yarn. They certainly spit when being shorn, but for that purpose an old sock over the muzzle contains the spit. DO NOT plan on reclaiming the sock!

      150

      • #
        JFC

        rather than tear it from the soil like cattle and horses.

        Small point but in the interests of accuracy cattle are actually ruminants like sheep, goats etc with the same dentition arrangement.

        105

        • #
          Rod Stuart

          KR you are obviously not familiar with animals at all.
          The fact that cattle, sheep, goats, and camelids are ruminants have nothing to do with it.
          The dentition is in fact much different.
          But digestive tract and dentition have nothing to do with grazing habits.
          No farmer with any sense puts cattle on a freshly sown pasture.
          Sheep cut the fresh grass cleanly and their hooves don’t indent the soil. At least as season off sheep grazing is necessary before the cattle are allowed. Cattle grip the fodder and pull. If the soil is mature, the grass tears. If not it comes out by the roots. Camelids have only very sharp bottom teeth and hardened gums on the top. They have no means to pull the vegetation, so the razor sharp bottom incisors shear it off.
          So you can stuff your ‘accuracy’ where the moon don’t shine so much.

          73

          • #

            Hi Rod
            Good post, my only point of contention is horses. They don’t rip grass out of the ground.
            My 12 will snip the tops off of single blades if necessary.
            But cattle? you’re absolutely correct. They rip the whole thing straight out of the ground with many inches of grass hanging out the sides of their mouths whilst chewing.
            They’re good for cutting down over-grown paddocks. Then I run the slasher over it, harrow the dung and let the horses loose on it about a week later.

            51

            • #

              Why then does every place in my area with horses look like a moonscape? Even on Google earth you can identify horse owners from the dead, brown land around their homes? Is it the hooves? I’m asking because my observation is horses destroy all vegetation except weeds. I get clouds of dust from my neighbor’s horse yards and the only thing that grows is tumbleweeds that pile up on my fence. I don’t have people around with cattle, so can’t say if there is a difference or not.

              40

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                I have owned, and competed on, horses for many years, and to keep them healthy, you have to manage their pasture very carefully. There are some weeds, ragwort being one, that they find palatable, but are very poisonous to them.

                In New Zealand, we are fortunate because we have a temperate climate with moderate rainfall for most of the year, and that is the primary factor in determining how many horses you can run in a given area. Other factors are: the mix of grass and herbs planted; and the maximum and minimum temperature extremes. But above all, the amount of rainfall you get throughout the year, is the most important factor.

                But Australia is not so fortunate when it comes to horse pasture. The Australian climate is (and always has been) a real challenge. Many people try to run horses on land that is just too small to sustain the numbers all year round, and they try to overcome this by buying in feed. But during the very dry and very wet extremes that Australia experiences, is when the pasture damage occurs, and the dormant grass roots get destroyed.

                So, it is not the way that horses eat, that is the issue. In this case, it really is the climate, that is the problem.

                40

              • #
                Yonniestone

                Sheri, as an evil denier I fully expected you to blame a minority group such as “horses hooves” ;)
                Seriously though Alpacas are cute but quite tough and are used for protecting sheep from foxes, dogs etc.
                I’ve seen the result of this when visiting a farm with some children, it was difficult to explain how the cute Alpaca they were just feeding and petting could rip open Mr Fox and leave him there in the paddock, interesting day.

                00

              • #

                I do my part for the cause!!

                I agree that alpacas are very cute and very tough. Here, sheep ranches sometimes use llamas to protect the sheep. It’s quite effective. Plus, llamas don’t chase cars like herd dogs do!
                Undoubtedly, children are surprised to find the adorable alpaca would dispatch a fox so efficiently. Cute does not equal harmless. They need to know this.

                40

              • #

                @Sheri

                Why then does every place in my area with horses look like a moonscape? Even on Google earth you can identify horse owners from the dead, brown land around their homes?

                Typically, a family that acquires a one or two acre property and decides a horse for their daughter would be a great idea doesn’t understand horses or horse behaviour.

                First, a section of the property is damaged because this is the area where the little girl rides the horse. Usually round and around in circles, compacting the soil and killing off the grass.
                Second, horses are very fussy eaters, especially the well fed ones. They will NOT eat anywhere near their defecation. These sections will end up with tall old growth whilst the remaining areas – the areas the horse actually grazes – will be trimmed to within a few of millimetres of the ground.

                Hence, a typical horse property in Australia will look like an unkempt paddock with tufts of tall dry grass and near bare earth.

                50

              • #
                bananabender

                @Sheri

                wild horses are highly migratory. They can travel 40-50km a day looking for food. If they are held in a paddock they will eat the most palatable food and ignore the weeds.

                @Rereke,

                Unfortunately Horsemanship is based mostly on mythology not fact. Horses are actually some of the toughest animals on the planet. They evolved on the Great Plains of North America and can easily handle extreme heat (40C+), bitter cold (-40C) and tough pastures.

                Wild horses thrive in the harshest weather and on the hardest ground.

                In Mongolia horses are left to graze in the open without blankets in -30C weather. They cope quite easily without shoes, oats or mollycoddling.

                31

              • #
                Tel

                Why then does every place in my area with horses look like a moonscape?

                Land is expensive and if the only thing the horse eats is pasture, it requires a lot of area to feed the horse.

                Most horses (in modern times) are kept for teenage girls to ride on, and thus the land needs to be plausibly close to suburbia, so you get better value out of a patch of land by filling it with plenty of horses and then just buying feed. The cost of the land ends up being much higher than the cost of feed.

                00

              • #
                bananabender

                @sheri:

                I suspect you are correct the problem is the land simply cannot support horses. Unfortunately, realtors sell everything outside of town as “horse property” and just keep adding to the problem.

                Brian Hampson and Peter Collis at the University of Queensland have made extensive studies of Australian brumbies (feral horses). Their studies show that wild horses prefer dry hilly country with hard rocky ground. This is the exact opposite of conventional wisdom which thinks horses should be raised on cool lush pastures.

                Brumbies travel as much as 70km per day. So the ideal horse “paddock” would probably be a few hundred hectares of semi-arid hill country.

                So the ideal horse “paddock” would be a few thousand hectaes

                00

            • #
              Rod Stuart

              You are spot on Humbug. Horses snip just like a lawnmower. Cows actually use their tongue to grip a wad of grass and pull. I guess I was trying to make a case for the benefits of alpacas and llamas, which do less root damage, especially when it is damp, than horses, especially the heavy breeds. On the other hand of course, horses (my Dad used to call them hay burners) have lots of other uses. Alpacas? Pretty much useless for anything but mowing. And they are just good friends.
              And Sheri, I have no idea other than perhaps your area can’t support the appetite of horses. Here in Tasmania, where the grass is green, the men are wise, the women are strong, and all the children are above average, the horses munch all year long. /sarc off.
              Actually, I have a friend from Arkansas who worked on a project here for about a year and fell in love with the island. He remarked to me one morning, after touring around all weekend, “there isn’t one hoss, or one bull, or one sheep in Tassie that wouldn’t win first prize at a county fair in Arkansas!”

              20

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                A guy down the road from me, by the name of Palmer, used to run Alpacas. Nice animals.

                But I always thought is was a shame though, that he didn’t have llamas.

                Because if he had, he could claim to go to bed wearing Palmer the llama farmers’ pyjamas.

                40

              • #

                I suspect you are correct the problem is the land simply cannot support horses. Unfortunately, realtors sell everything outside of town as “horse property” and just keep adding to the problem.

                30

            • #
              Apoxonbothyourhouses

              Dear Baa, Have you seen the Allan Savory TED talk on the positive effects of running cattle etc. over pasture? Don’t have the link so Google, but think you would appreciate.

              10

              • #

                Yes I have Pox and am not fully convinced.
                Though much of it makes sense, how does one explain (for instance) the fact that central Australia is chock full of grazers called kangaroos but is still a semi-desert?
                I believe there must be a minimum critical level of rainfall, then large numbers of grazers travelling through ‘pruning’ and fertilizing the grass will help keep desertification at bay.
                There also needs to be a variety of herbivores. no point having a million beasts all wanting to eat the same thing.

                If I had nothing but cattle or nothing but horses, my work load on my property would quadruple.
                Cattle will eat what horses won’t, and horses will eat what cattle can’t.
                And the 20 or so ibis at my place do a great job of aerating the soil

                10

          • #
            JFC

            Yes Rod, but my point is that cattle are just a scaled up version of sheep/goats/deer etc in the teeth department. They all bite with bottom incisors against a upper gum with no teeth if you see what I mean. Sure cattle are less precise with their grazing because they are bigger not because they have different teeth arrangement. No need to get nasty that, was my only point.

            21

            • #
              Grant (NZ)

              Cattle tend to not bite vegetation, but instead wrap their tongue round it and pull it out. That’s why mixed dry stock farmers graze cattle in long grass and then follow them up with sheep which nibble the grass down to dirt.

              Regarding the state of the average “pony paddock” I suspect that it is a case of feed management that horses are kept short of grass. If they are left to their own devices in a paddock with a lot of feed a horse will show no restraint. Result: a fat horse. However, if you keep them short on feed, you can control their condition by feeding them on “horse feed”.

              I am not an equestrian, but this is just my observation from the horses we have owned or grazed.

              10

      • #

        Hey Rod,

        The annual fibre harvest, although not of any particular value, is of very fine denier and one day we will spin a few sacks of it into yarn.

        I thought that word was verboten around here.

        Nyuk nyuk nyuk!

        Tony.

        100

        • #

          Bvgger, Tony, you beat me to it. I can’t see a market for ‘denier’ yarn at the moment, either.

          Trenberth might buy some though, from what I read at Judith Curry’s site ;-) .

          It’s a travesty, apparently.

          These increases are certainly less than the warming rates of the 1980s and first half of the 1990s of about 0.15 to 0.20 C (.27 and .36 F respectively) and per decade. The earlier period may have provided an unrealistic view of the global warming signal, says Kevin Trenberth, climate scientist with the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Co.

          30

      • #
        Geoff Sherrington

        Sign: BEWARE THIS ANIMAL SPITS. And he was.

        00

      • #
        Tel

        The annual fibre harvest, although not of any particular value, is of very fine denier and one day we will spin a few sacks of it into yarn.

        Nothing whatsoever to do with global warming, but I’ve been spinning alpaca wool, and it’s tricky stuff to work with. The fibers themselves are very smooth, but the natural oil from the alpaca is sticky. If you wash the fiber until the oil is gone you find the stuff gets slippery and the thread breaks. If you don’t wash the oil out it will grab and make clumps (or you need very strong fingers if you are doing it by hand, which I have, but the mills don’t like it).

        I met a guy who recently brought machinery to Australia and who specializes in running a mill for alpaca wool. There are several types out there, what he had on show was the white fibers with tight kinks, the supply I get is the brown straight fibers. He has a “secret process” to pre-treat the alpaca wool for spinning which (I would guess) seems to involve washing out pretty much all of the natural alpaca oil and then a controlled replacement with some sort of lanolin-based product. This makes the mill happy, and he gets a slightly fat three-ply out of it (roughly equivalent to five-ply normal yarn, maybe a bit fatter). The final product knitted textiles are very nice. Believe it or not, Australians have been shipping alpaca wool fibers to South America for processing, only to get the yarn shipped back again! Hopefully local mills can scoop some of that work.

        Anyhow, now you know there’s a mill out there, he is quite likely looking for small batches to process. Depending on who you get to do your shearing, if you want something usable, make sure you keep different parts of the clip separate. Don’t mix long fibers with short fibers.

        10

        • #
          Rod Stuart

          That’s good information Tel but not much use if I don’t know who you are talking about. I googled the subject and is your acquaintance in Macclefield near Melbourne?

          00

          • #
            Tel

            Well just knowing that people are taking alpaca milling seriously in Australia should be useful to you. I’ll admit that I didn’t keep the guy’s card, but I met him at this expo:

            http://www.farmonline.com.au/theland/fsa_expo2012/info.html

            There’s a list of exhibitors, including the Australian Alpaca Association who keep an online list:

            http://www.alpaca.asn.au/component/mtree/alpaca-fleece-processing/

            I vaguely remember the guy was either part of the Australian Alpaca Association or perhaps just sharing a tent with them. You will have to do your own due diligence, search the list, talk to each one about what they do. I can’t personally recommend any one over and above the others. At any rate, your fibers are not worthless, small business has not died completely, people just don’t talk about it for fear of the government “helping” them.

            00

            • #
              Rod Stuart

              Thanks Tel
              I’ll try to find out who it is. There are quite a few Alpacas in this area. It would be of interest because it sells for about ten dollars a ball at the trendy Evandale market.
              Your ‘straight brown fibers’ would be from the Suri breed. That breed, when ready to shear, has a coat that falls like a silk curtain, with no crimp.
              In Tasmania, by far the most common Alpaca breed is the Huacaya, and the fiber has crimp, and when the animal has twelve months of growth it looks rounded a bulky, like an Afro haircut on an Afro-American.

              00

  • #
    Olaf Koenders

    “Management” companies are now flying over the outback, shooting goats and camels from helicopters, and earning carbon credits.

    That’s just stupid. How could they possibly earn credits when they’re probably emitting more searching for and chasing them down?

    Unless, they took into account that CH4 is some 23x more “damaging” to our atmosphere than CO2, doing the sums as per the total amount of CH4 in the atmosphere adds up to a piddling 43ppm CO2. Pointless.

    Maybe it creates jobs or preserves some vegetation, but the total amount of CH4 coming from these few ferals on just ONE continent of the planet and converting it to CO2 equivalent must be an infinitesimal amount that can’t be measured.

    If they’re THAT worried about animal CH4 production, why not kill all the wildebeests, bison, rabbits, deer and every other farting/ruminating animal on the planet? Mind-boggling stupidity and an attempt at make-busy gubberment – AGAIN!

    Labor – Your taxes at work..

    173

    • #
      jorgekafkazar

      “If they’re THAT worried about animal CH4 production, why not kill all the wildebeests, bison, rabbits, deer and every other farting/ruminating animal on the planet?”

      Hush, Olaf, you’ll give away The Secret Plan.

      60

    • #
      mc

      If they’re THAT worried about animal CH4 production, why not kill all the wildebeests, bison, rabbits, deer and every other farting/ruminating animal on the planet?

      Yeah, but feral humans are ok right,,, right? Umm, well I was planning on having my dreadlocks cut off tomorrow anyway guys, [gulp] no really I was, as soon as I’ve seen my doctor to get something to stop my farting problem. Sorry, mung beans, you know.

      40

      • #
        johninoxley

        Had a similar problem, except my problem sounded like a motorbike. I saw many doctors, with no remedy. Finally when in Japan I consulted a doctor, not a problem John, very common, you have an abscess in your alimentary canal. I replied why the noise. Ah, abscess make the fart go Honda.(Sorry Mod)
        [Hmm, apology accepted - this time -Fly]

        31

    • #
      Shevva

      As always follow the money because I bet they get more than just carbon credits, would you waste money flying round the outback shooting animals for a promise of carbon credits only?

      00

  • #
    David

    Aside from the feral camels and goats on our continent it seems not all that long ago there was a move to control the emissions of other harmless and useful herbivores [cows]. Not sure how this was going to be achieved and cannot find the reference I had kept as an example of green stupidity. Would grass eating goats not be in the same category as grass eating cows? And what of the odd wandering goat that gets in the path of a landing or leaving plane full of people? As a species are we actually going backward in the ability to think clearly or have we returned to the pre-Enlightenment situation of believing in witchcraft and “Earth Mothers” [Earth Persons I suppose in this non-sexist age]? Perhaps there is such a thing as Reverse Darwinian Theory.

    81

    • #
      Olaf Koenders

      Sadly, it appears we haven’t progressed much in our “belief systems” since we were throwing virgins into volcanoes and burning witches. People are too lazy to do the groundwork for themselves and, instead of being naturally sceptical, rely on the word of supposed “experts” and “authority” no matter how ridiculous the idea.

      Maybe some idiot from a round-table discussion, looking for a solution to rising “caahhbn” taxes at airports had the bright idea because he was too lazy/stupid to educate the others as to why any CO2 tax is a brain fart.

      If the idea of goats failed at one airport they should study the reasons why. I can see it costing far more than standard mowing because animals with a brain the size of a walnut are hard to control – not as bad as herding cats as goats aren’t as clever and independent, so every animal will likely need chains in order to lead and maintain their grazing position, maybe.

      These fools don’t care to look at the evidence that we had some 4000ppm CO2 in the Devonian around 400mya which was soaked up by the enormous forests of the Carboniferous around 330mya, where we get most of our coal today. We’re only returning to the atmosphere what was once there. I doubt we can achieve that faster than all the currently bubbling volcanoes, including the thousands on the ocean floor.

      110

      • #
        gai

        you use a shepherd and dogs just like you would sheep or you use electronet temporary fence and a solar fence charger.

        10

        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          I have seen dairy goats walk straight through a five-wire electric fence. They twitched a bit, but kept on going.

          I have only seen electronet at ag-shows, and always wondered how well it would stand up to a strong wind.

          10

          • #
            Rod Stuart

            I forgot to mention another advantageous trait of the Alpaca as a lawnmower. they don’t challenge fences. As long as they have plenty to eat and clean water where they are, they don’t appear to be interested in wandering. A fence need only be a demarcation of sorts.

            11

          • #
            Apoxonbothyourhouses

            Only NZ goats.

            10

          • #
            Geoff Sherrington

            I straddled a fence on my way to a good photo. As I passed no return, I discovered it was electric. Then, I realised I had to get back again … I didn’t just brush off the experience, it was unprecedentedly gonadal.

            20

    • #

      David says…

      Aside from the feral camels and goats on our continent it seems not all that long ago there was a move to control the emissions of other harmless and useful herbivores [cows]. Not sure how this was going to be achieved and cannot find the reference I had kept as an example of green stupidity.

      Actually there was a strong move to limit emissions from cows arses, but A REVOLUTION TOOK PLACE and the whole thing was called off.

      30

  • #

    Say, while this is not related to the topic about the goats, it is related to O’Hare Airport, originally called Orchard Depot Airport.

    It was renamed O’Hare in honour of ‘Butch’ O’Hare, the first USN naval aviator to become an Ace. in World War Two.

    O’Hare was later killed in an action that saw him honoured with the Medal Of Honor, similar to our V.C.

    O’Hare was a revered person in the USN and also amongst Navy Aviators.

    It was decided to rename the airport in his honour as a now revered resident of Chicago.

    His father was Al Capone’s lawyer, who later turned on Capone during his tax trials, and was gunned down by Capone’s men in retaliation.

    Tony.

    100

  • #
    Alexander K

    An excellent example of ignorance encouraging folly as goats are more trouble than they are worth. A mechanical mower has the great advantage of NOT having needs, desires and urges that conflict with the orderly mowing of grass. A mechanical mower does not look for and enlarge holes in perimeter fences because it wants to be somewhere else and will not walk, of it’s own volition, in front of moving aircraft and other vehicles.

    61

  • #
    Dave

    .
    Julia Gillards NEW scheme:

    Goats for Mowers

    Estimated 30,000,000 lawn mowers in Australia (work & home) so goats are the GO.
    So ALP can budget for:
    1. Retraining all lawnmower operators to Goat Sheppard standard.
    2. Purchase 30,000,000 goats or more.
    3. Collection & destruction contract for 30,000,000 million mowers.
    4. Government Goat Department.

    All up about $5 to $6 Billion per year should see this work and save the world of millions of tonnes of lawn mower emissions. And you can eat, milk & shear goats if we run out of money.

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    • #
      Graeme No.3

      What about the sheep currently employed on this? Will they get unemployment benefits, social security etc.? Or will they have to board a leaky boat and try for asylum in NZ?

      110

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      crakar24

      No 3, Ah yes a government buy back scheme, this should be a hoot. Better start buying all the cheap arse mowers i can get my hands on then hand them over and make a tidy profit.

      50

    • #
      Dennis

      and the plan will be funded in the first instance with a new levy and our target start up is 2020, we will then make savings in the budget and subsidise participants by raising the fuel levy 100% for neighbours who still use lawnmowers

      10

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    Anto

    So, how long before one of the goats escapes and gets in the path of a fully loaded plane taking off or landing?

    40

    • #
      crakar24

      To send a message to the other goats that they are not free and are purely in the servitude of man it will shot in front of the others in accordance with ancient enviromentally sustainable rites.

      Its entrails will be read by the high priests (Saint Al of the Gore ably assisted by William Holdren)to predict future climate catastrophes.

      90

    • #
      john robertson

      Never mind that, how about XXX Airlines, we are sorry but the airport goats ate your luggage.

      10

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      That is a good point. The poor goat might get frightened, or even hurt.

      20

  • #
    crakar24

    Well what can one say about this latest crap?

    Firstly to the goats…..i thought the idea was that green stuff removes CO2 from the atmosphere so the more we have the better but here we are reducing it. As many have pointed out goats fart methane and exhale CO2 so this is a net loss surely. Also goats need up keep, they need vetinarian services (worming etc) and i think if they are forced to only eat grass we may need to supplement their diets somewhat. In the end as others have mentioned this is just another made green scheme that can only end in tears.

    Now to the camels/pigs/goats etc here in Australia………if we are not saving the planet for the animals then who or what are we saving it for?

    120

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      crakar24:

      They predicted drought, which stunts plant growth. So mowing down the grass gives them an opportunity to say “look, we got something right”. Rather rare opportunity and worth spending YOUR money on, or so they think.

      Seriously, sheep would be a better bet to keep grass down. Claims that are stupid and easily led are possibly true, although recent research (at vast expense) indicates that the individual sheep is smarter than the average Labor Minister.

      50

    • #
      mc

      Firstly to the goats…..i thought the idea was that green stuff removes CO2 from the atmosphere so the more we have the better but here we are reducing it.

      Exactly! That’s why I haven’t mown my front lawn in two years, carbon credits man! My neighbours think I’m a thoughtless slob, no way; I’m doing my bit to save the universe AND BEING PAID FOR IT! Money for jam dudes, with much less work involved, cool.

      10

    • #
      Kevin Lohse

      Environmentally sound animals like poley bears, penguins, killer whales and anopheles mosquitos. Camels, pigs and goats count as anthropological pollution and are evil. Such are to be excised from the animal kingdom with all dispatch. I thought everyone knew that.

      10

  • #

    I vote we arm our outback camels with MANPADS. I wonder if the cretins shooting goats and camels from helicopters have figured out how much CO2 they emit per kill? I bet the idiot politicians haven’t got a clue……. oh sorry, that’s always true.

    60

  • #
    crakar24

    Off topic…..yes i know a bit earlier tha usual.

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/australias-7-billion-euro-contributions-very-small-swan-20120422-1xens.html

    I could think of a few issues here at home with a higher priority

    60

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Things are worse than we thought!

      Already he is preparing the way to borrow from the IMF. Either that, or he is hoping the Europeans will prop up the carbon price.

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  • #
    Dave

    Another Goat Climate Change story:

    “Global warming could cause goat populations to rocket” in Planet Earth Online.

    In on paragraph it states:

    But warming global temperatures could make conditions bearable at these higher latitudes. The researchers looked at one specific population on the Isle of Rum, off the northwest coast of Scotland, to see how they were responding to climate in relation to day length.
    ‘As temperatures have started to climb by bits of a degree over the last half century we’ve been seeing the numbers of goats on the Isle of Rum increasing,’ says Professor Robin Dunbar from the University of Oxford, who led the study.

    Day length is now affected by Climate Change???

    50

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Well, the researchers seem to respond to the phases of the moon!

      Their finding: slightly higher temperatures make life easier for animals such as goats, therefore global warming will be bad.

      40

    • #
      Dennis

      Where are all the bones from earlier warmings?

      00

  • #

    I put the following comment at WUWT
    “Steve Goreham, have a look at the posts about methane on my blog (http://cementafriend.wordpress.com/2011/10/14/methane-good-or-bad/). Then go away and find some real proof about the BS and green scam that methane is anything more than an insignificant trace gas in the atmosphere.”

    20

  • #
    The Black Adder

    Unfortunately, due to the Global financial Crisis….

    My Goats have been replaced by Rabbits!

    40

  • #
    Greebo

    “Management” companies are now flying over the outback, shooting goats and camels from helicopters, and earning carbon credits.

    That’s a good wheeze. I suppose the carbon credits can then be used to offset the carbon output of the helicopters and the propellant from the rifle cartridges. Or are they renewable these days?

    What about the decomposing carcasses? Do they emit too? Or do they get picked up for pet food or something? Hope they use hybrid trucks/choppers.

    Are brumbies included in this too?

    30

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    cohenite

    Here is the famous list of things caused by AGW.

    Goats are currently not listed; someone should sent in this post to be included in the list.

    30

  • #
    realist

    Who needs to use goats with handlebars? Just empty the corridors of power to find plenty gorging themselves on “green” money and emitting tonnes of carbon equivalents.

    Perfect opportunity here for a few warmist “researchers” to apply for copious ARC grants to investigate the carbon equivalent opportunity costs of this excellent idea to “save the world”. This could include the bureacracy who dreamed up the idea, the contractors, helicopters, fuel suppliers, logistic support, firearms and ammunition makers, etc ,etc, required to “dispose of” a few thousand feral camels, goats, donkeys (no, not bureacrats in the climate industry), etc.

    Weighing up the carbon equivalents would be a fascinating insight into “carbon efficiency”. Not to mention the other grants required to evaluate the carbon equivalents of forage eaten by feral herbivores and not consumed by termites that would have otherwise consumed the forage, as those underground consumers pump out far more methane than all the rest of us combined.

    Don’t mention this last one too loudly or the carbon cops will slap another tax on your house being consumed slowly by the termites hiding in the pink batts.

    30

  • #
    CameronH

    Perhaps the people in Canberra should watch this video by Alan Savory and maybe realize that the main reason for desertification in Australia was because the Aborigines killed off all of the large herbivores herds. The re introduction of large herbivores like camels is what we need. Why do no not hey let people harvest these Camels for commercial gain. Everybody wins.

    00

    • #
      Backslider

      the Aborigines killed off all of the large herbivores herds

      This assertion, which comes to us from none other than Tim Flannery, has been thoroughly debunked.

      20

      • #
        Ironic Lank

        Yeh it was climate change what done it!
        How ironic is that?

        30

      • #
        CameronH

        Gee, The term “debunked” gets thrown around a lot. A bit like calling somebody a racists to shut them up. Just to settle things then I could have said that they “Mysteriously” went extinct just after human beings first arrived in Australia.

        Now perhaps you might like to comment on my real point and the video link about the proposition of using grazing animals such as camels, for example, to reverse desertification and whether more research should be done on this before slaughtering all of these animals.

        10

    • #
      Yonniestone

      CameronH, yes I watched this awhile ago, If you can get past the usual CAGW stuff the actual concept of using grazing to reverse desertification is very interesting, one must always keep an eye out for ideas that might work then apply the scientific method to see if they do.
      Sometimes these discoveries turn up in the most unlikely of places.

      10

  • #
    handjive

    On what failed scientific advice did the Australian LaboUr Government create the Carbon Farming Initiative Act in December of 2011?

    Prof debunks flatulence as major cause of global warming

    ❝ In 2006, the United Nations concluded that the livestock industry was a big contributor to climate change.

    In its report “Livestock’s Long Shadow,” the U.N. concluded that livestock were contributing 18 percent of the world’s greenhouse gases — allegedly more than the entire world’s transpiration.

    The U.N.’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (UN-IPCC) used the report to forecast that Himalayan glaciers might vanish within 25 years.

    The UN-IPCC report on glacial melt was wrong.
    .
    Professor Frank Mitloehner, an air-quality specialist at the University of California-Davis has been on a one-man mission debunking misconceptions about livestock and climate change.

    Mitloehner convinced the U.N. to recant its claim in 2010.
    The U.N. report estimated the amount of greenhouse gases emitted from every aspect of raising meat.
    The U.N. did not do the same when estimating the greenhouse gases from cars.

    But last month (Oct 2012) the United Nations also made Mitloehner chairman of its new Food and Agriculture Organization, which will measure the environmental impacts of the livestock business. ❞

    40

  • #
    Maverick

    Last week vegetation trapped carbon, and when it died naturally it then placed carbon into the soil. A week is a long time in Climatism.

    30

  • #
    wayne, s. Job

    If we pay the fees to the appropriate Imam, shooting camels and goats from a helicopter may be halal. Big market in the Arab world for camel and goat. Perhaps just round them up and put them on a boat. Shooting them and leaving them is plain stupid, par for the course I guess for green climate control.

    30

    • #
      David

      I hadn’t realised the demand for these animals in the Arab World was for eating purposes. I guess the stories of my Grandfather [WW1 - Egypt & other middle eastern places] and my uncle [WW2 - Western Desert, Syria] about goats and camels were untrue. Oh well another image of the past shattered.

      20

  • #
    Ian

    Jo Apropos the book burning at San Hose State University I wrote this to the Department of Meteorology and Climate Science

    Subject Ray Bradbury

    For many years I was a professor at Curtin University in Perth Western Australia and am now retired. To see academics burning books is a travesty of what universities are about. Part of academic responsibility is to encourage students to develop in free thinking, to show them how to analyse different points of an argument and to encourage them to accept others have views different from those from which they subscribe, This disgraceful picture of bigotry, intolerance and disrespect for the views of others that will be seen by a very significant number of people across the world , demeans academics and is likely to do more harm to those who support the concept of anthropogenic global warming than those who do not.

    I received this reply:

    Thank you for sharing your concerns. The Department of Meteorology and Climate Science has removed the material in question from its website, and regrets what was clearly an ill-conceived attempt at satire. Please be assured the university does not condone book burning for any reason.

    Alison F.C. Bridger
    Professor & Chair

    Department of Meteorology and Climate Science

    Thank you for sharing your concerns. The Department of Meteorology and Climate Science has removed the material in question from its website, and regrets what was clearly an ill-conceived attempt at satire. Please be assured the university does not condone book burning for any reason.

    On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Ian Lee wrote:
    For many years I was a professor at Curtin University in Perth Western Australia and am now retired. To see academics burning books is a travesty of what universities are about. Part of academic responsibility is to encourage students to develop in free thinking, to show them how to analyse different points of an argument and to encourage them to accept others have views different from those from which they subscribe, This disgraceful picture of bigotry, intolerance and disrespect for the views of others that will be seen by a very significant number of people across the world , demeans academics and is likely to do more harm to those who support the concept of anthropogenic global warming than those who do not.

    Ian Lee (Ph.D)


    Alison F.C. Bridger
    Professor & Chair

    Department of Meteorology and Climate Science

    30

    • #
      Rod Stuart

      I wasn’t nearly as verbose, but I got the same cookie cutter response.

      To: SJSU
      Do you still employ these Fascist lunatics Drs. Bridger and Clements?
      What do they intend to burn next?
      Just because it is getting cold and will get a lot colder, this vile religion of theirs is driving them to this?
      I hope you get rid of them soon.

      Alison Bridger
      8 May (2 days ago)

      to me
      Thank you for sharing your concerns. The Department of Meteorology and Climate Science has removed the material in question from its website, and regrets what was clearly an ill-conceived attempt at satire. Please be assured the university does not condone book burning for any reason.

      Alison F.C. Bridger
      Professor & Chair

      Department of Meteorology and Climate Science

      San Jose State University tel 408.924.5206

      One Washington Square fax 408.924.5191
      San Jose, CA 95192-0104

      email: Alison.Bridger@sjsu.edu

      http://www.met.sjsu.edu

      http://www.met.sjsu.edu/~bridger

      30

      • #
        Apoxonbothyourhouses

        Exactly the same wording was used as a reply to my letter so evidently an automated response. I then suggested that if that was their idea of “satire” then they needed serious help cum counselling. I don’t anticipate hearing more.

        10

  • #
    Ian

    Sorry for the duplication didn’t check before posting

    00

  • #

    A goat on the land is worth two in the….bank account!!??

    20

  • #

    I think you should leave your camels alone. They are an interesting addition to your landscape and may one day be a source of revenue. I could be wrong if so correct me.

    31

    • #
      David

      More than happy to leave the camels to themselves Ceetee. My grandfather [WW1 - Egypt and other middle eastern type places including the tourist idyll of Gallipoli] once told me a joke about camels and a certain military unit and the need for transportation to the nearest “house of delight”. A joke which most ex-green machine types will probably have heard. Wasn’t only the Arabs the camels were nervous about. Guess that was a bit off topic but the discussion brought the joke back to mind and I have just told my now serving son so it has passed down four generations of a family proud to have served their country.

      10

    • #
      Dennis

      Feral Camels are being captured and sold to the Middle East, highly prized Australian specimens are in excellent condition and health

      00

  • #

    Here’s an idea. Anyone whose title includes the term ‘head of sustainability’ or ‘climate organiser’ etc., should be made to walk to work and relinquish any pensions rights as a steady increase in each nation’s GDP will be needed to fund them in retirement.

    Would that shut them up?

    51

    • #
      gai

      GrumpyDenier,

      Don’t forget that in addition anyone whose title includes the term ‘sustainability’ or ‘climate’ should also be banned from using any oil based products like nylon, polyester or plastics. They should be banned from using any products from CO2/methane producing livestock like wool, cashmere or leather. There homes and offices should also be stripped of all cement and plastic including the insulation on all electrical wiring….

      All these people pushing CAGW starting with Al Gore and Julia Gillard should be made to lead by example and cut their carbon footprint to 80% of their countries average before asking us to do so.

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      • #

        Don’t forget that in addition anyone whose title includes the term ‘sustainability’ or ‘climate’ should also be banned from using any oil based products like nylon, polyester or plastics.

        Yep, that sounds like a plan. Unfortunately, we both know it won’t happen. These people live in a parallel universe where the word ‘irony’ is defined as putting sharp edges on shirt sleeves and trouser legs.

        Dog knows how many of these parasites are included in those thousands of ‘green’ jobs they always tout as a benefit of ‘mitigation’.

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  • #
    Eliza

    Basically the warmistas and the MSM who push this s$$te are shooting themselves in the foot so lets hope they keep printing crap like this LOL

    41

  • #

    Don’t be silly GD, don’t you know that Stalin lived high on the hog and had his own Dacha in the country, Kim Il Sung loved caviar and champagne?. We’re not fighting an ethical viewpoint different to ours. We are fighting a lack of any decent ethical standards as we know them. The fact that Gore et al would derive any benefit from carbon is simply not on their radar. You can’t use reasoned debate with people who treat reason as a subjective emotion. Climate catastrophe is their religion and a major crutch in their politics. Gore is a dick, anyone vaguely intelligent and inquisitive can see that.

    50

    • #
      gai

      The higher ups in the ‘Socialist’ pecking order see themselves as feudal overlords and the rest of us as serfs. ‘Socialism’ is just the candy coating served up to the ‘Great Unwashed’ to keep them from squawking and rebelling while their rights and wealth are stripped from them and their children are brainwashed.

      The Fabian Shield, a wolf wrapped in a sheepskin says it all and the fact the stain glass window containing that shield was just hung in the Shaw Library in the London School of Economics means they are thumbing their nose at the stupid sheeple.

      60

    • #
      Yonniestone

      Ceetee,
      The only result acceptable to a psychopath is what they want, nothing else, the sooner people learn this the better.

      10

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    It could only happen in a centre for higher education.

    Higher than what?

    Didn’t you just know they’d find a real scape goat to blame?

    Ain’t climate change wonderful? ;-)

    30

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    dp

    Didn’t I read recently in the climate blogosphere that the way to help restore land lost to desertification is to introduce grazing animals? What are the magnitude and sign of goat poo forcing on foliage density?

    I’m reminded of a stupid joke:

    http://purpleslinky.com/jokes/joke-of-the-day-hit-my-hand/

    10

    • #
      gai

      Didn’t I read recently in the climate blogosphere that the way to help restore land lost to desertification is to introduce grazing animals? ….
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

      I think you are talking about this WUWT article.

      That comes under the ‘It depends” category. Careful grazing will build up organic matter in the soil and will encourage tillering.

      …a reproductive tiller may remain vegetative if the growing point (terminal meristem) is removed by grazing. Vegetative growth, therefore, is favored by some grazing, which reduces the number of seedheads produced and may stimulate the formation of new tillers. Vegetative tillers usually are less stemmy and more nutritious than reproductive tillers.

      Seed production may be valuable, however, if the operator wishes to harvest a seed crop or if there is a need for seed to produce new seedlings in the stand. Seed production is not always essential for stand maintenance, as many grasses reproduce by vegetative means such as tillering or production of new stems from underground rhizomes…. http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/natres/06108.html

      However overgrazing can lead to desertification link Too many goats can really kill an area. link (I wonder if the goats at the airport will try to jump onto the planes? They have no trouble climbing onto a pickup truck roof. link )

      Managed Intensive Rotational Grazing (MIRG), also known as cell grazing, mob grazing or managed planned grazing I found works very well. It has doubled the livestock carrying capacity of the acreage. It increased the amount of organic matter in the soil and this in turn increased drought resistance and increased growth. It also significantly reduced worm burden which in turn reduced the amount of feed needed and increased animal health. link (The land was worn out crop fields and 98% pure clay now it has 4 inches of topsoil 15 years later.)

      40

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    Joe V.

    The act calls for “The reduction of methane emissions through the management, in a humane manner, of feral goats, feral deer, feral pigs, or feral camels.

    What a about the feral politicians ?

    40

  • #
    Ace

    Sorry Ozxies but the more I read this blog the more I begin to think present-day Australia is one colossal feckin madhouse.

    10

    • #
      Rod Stuart

      Once upon a time, not long ago, it was a pretty cool place.
      Then, the Marxists seem to have taken over the universities and produced a mob of lesbians with law degrees.
      This has had an effect in many ways similar to the conquest of the Bolsheviks in 1917.

      30

      • #
        Ace

        Once upon a time I knew what a cool place it was…ugh,anachronistic expression…what to me a paradise it was…1974 and 1975.

        I long ago decided I should never go there again because I dont want my recollections of the place as it was then tarnished by its present plight. Overrun by visiting foreigners (by which I mean British and Americans mainly)and subsumed within the general mire of other Western societies.

        As I remember it there was a certain special distance to it. The latest issue of Science Fiction Monthly was dated three months prior to the one I already had. It was indeed like being on another planet. One far removed from the grim daily chill of the Cold War back home.

        20

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      Everybody is mad apart from me, and the bloke in the mirror. And I have my doubts about him …

      30

      • #
        Ace

        Only three people ever understood the Schlewsig Holstein problem, one had died, one had gone mad and Lord Palmerston, who said he had forgotten all about it when he made that observation.

        20

    • #
      gai

      That applies to any government. The bigger the government the bigger the madhouse. Politicians lie through their teeth to get elected then do what their handlers want and then ‘Dance a little Sidestep’

      10

  • #

    Fun with math

    Lets see …
    120 acres x 43,560 ft2 per acre = 5,227,200 ft2
    Area “cleared” by goats per day = 16 ft x 16 ft = 256 ft2
    5,227,200 ft2 total area to be cleared / 256 ft2 area cleared per day = wait for it …
    20,419 days. Almost 56 years to “clear” the entire area.

    Maybe that’s wrong. Maybe that’s the area “cleared” each day by each goat!
    256 ft2 per goat per day x 25 goats = 6,400 ft2 “cleared” per day.
    5,227,200 ft2 / 6,400 ft2 per day = 817 days. MUCH better. Only 2.24 years to “clear” the entire area.

    I wonder what the regrowth rate will be?
    Of course this is Chicago, so the grazing season won’t be 365 days …

    Gee, I wonder if this will work … ?

    10

    • #
      gai

      on the east coast of the USA you figure the carrying rate is 5 sheep or goats per acre. If it is woods the goats will clear as high as they can stand on their hindlegs. With saplings they will mob the tree and carry it to the ground and eat it. I have seen a goat hanging by its teeth when the rest moved on and it did not let go fast enough. Wish I had had a camera.

      20

      • #

        I agree, that would have been a great picture! But you might have been accuse of animal abuse. No one would believe they did it to themselves!

        So, at a carrying capacity of 5 goats per acre, it would require 5 acres to maintain these animals. And they’re trying to manage the vegetation on 120 acres?

        That sound you hear is the collision of ideology and reality …

        10

  • #
    Bob Malloy

    Totally off topic. While working overnight,tuned to ABC radio. Every news Bulletin featured John Conn-eh Connor of the climate institute, CO2 measurements taken at Mauna Loa have passed 400ppm for the first time in 3000,000 years, with the following warnings, “if the extreme weather we have experienced recently then you haven’t seen anything yet“.

    The first bulletin just caused me to grimace, by the end of the shift I was ready to throw up.

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    Ross

    Slightly off topic but Pointman’s latest essay is great. Well worth the time to read it –infact it is a must read.

    http://thepointman.wordpress.com/2013/05/10/some-thoughts-about-policy-for-the-aftermath-of-the-climate-wars/

    20

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    pat

    EU carbon ends week 11 pct lower on weak energy prices
    LONDON, May 10 (Reuters Point Carbon) – European carbon permits ended the week down 11 percent on Friday after prices fell on the back of weaker energy markets in thin trade broken by public holidays across Europe, traders said…
    http://www.pointcarbon.com/news/1.2343125

    Brazil’s shift back to coal alarms green groups
    SAO PAULO, May 10 (Reuters Point Carbon) – The Brazilian government opened its upcoming energy auction to electricity from coal-fired plants this week, and drew fire from environmental groups who accused the government of rolling back its highly touted climate policies…
    http://www.pointcarbon.com/news/1.2343300?&ref=searchlist

    given it is well understood australia will have a new govt in september, it’s amazing how bloomberg & reuters point carbon seem so positive we will still have an ETS afterwards. those who intend voting for the coalition need to contact your representatives now and demand the ETS be scrapped:

    Australia to hold first CO2 permit sales by mid-2014
    BEIJING, May 10 (Reuters Point Carbon) – Australia will hold two auctions of carbon permits under the nation’s proposed Emissions Trading Scheme by July 1 2014, a full year before the market starts, according to the scheme’s auctioning regulations that became law Friday…
    http://www.pointcarbon.com/news/1.2342248?&ref=searchlist

    10

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    el gordo

    BEIJING, May 10 (Reuters Point Carbon) – ‘Australia will hold two auctions of carbon permits under the nation’s proposed Emissions Trading Scheme by July 1 2014, a full year before the market starts, according to the scheme’s auctioning regulations that became law Friday.’

    China Inc has no understanding of the democratic process.

    20

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    Herr Majuscule

    Should you feed your elected goats, or starve them to stop the storms? Oh the dilemma.

    http://www.ipa.org.au/news/2891/free-rein-proposal-by-canberra-should-be-hobbled-before-the-pass

    “…………….Don’t listen to what Canberra says. The local government referendum has nothing to do with local communities or anything like that. It’s a power play – part of a long-running campaign by the Commonwealth to free its spending decisions from parliamentary scrutiny and undermine the states.
    To understand the significance of the September referendum, we have to go back to an obscure bill passed by Parliament last June: the Financial Framework Legislation Amendment Bill (No 3) 2012. This bill received almost no press attention. It was supported by all sides of Parliament. The Coalition half-heartedly put up an amendment, but once that was rejected, it backed the bill anyway. The bill was made law in three hours.
    Yet it was one of the most undemocratic and scandalous pieces of legislation passed in recent years. Forget the carbon tax. This is what Australia should be most angry about.
    The bill authorises the government to spend money on 415 areas of public policy without having to ask Parliament for permission ever again.
    It was quickly written in the wake of the successful High Court challenge to the school chaplains program. The court found that if the government wanted to spend money on a program, it was required to pass a valid law through Parliament – which it had not done in the case of school chaplains. This is not a trivial requirement. Parliamentary scrutiny is the essence of representative democracy.
    The government’s solution was smart-alecky, brazen and obnoxious. The Financial Framework Legislation Amendment simply authorised spending on everything at one fell swoop – everything from United Nations contributions, to ”diversity and social cohesion” grants, to industry subsidies. Local government is in there, too. Now the government can do anything it wants. The bill even says the government can spend what it likes on ”political party secretariat training……………………………………….”.

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      Graeme No.3

      The politicians get more brazen every day. Less and less democracy because “the little people don’t understand” or more probably “those bogans are easily fooled”, so don’t tell them anything.

      Years ago there was an article pointing out that the contempt the voters had for politicians was returned by that the politicians had for the voters. That was in the USA, but surely applies elsewhere.

      Perhaps instead of shooting goats we should cull a few politicians? It might encourage the others!

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      • #
        Roy Hogue

        What? My politicians have contempt for me? No way! Just look at all the good things they’re doing for me — and all the money they’re spending to do it. That must be evidence of their love and concern for me, right? That is right, isn’t it? Isn’t it?

        30

    • #
      KinkyKeith

      Hi Mr M.

      While your item is a bit heavy for early Sunday morning it is something that needs more attention.

      The theft from the Treasury must be stopped and people held to account for removing cash from the control of Parliament.

      We need a Royal Commission or a revolt, both of which, unfortunately, are highly unlikely.

      Good summaries by G3 and Roy.

      KK:)

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    Herr Majuscule

    The Referendum and the Socialist agenda -

    http://www.alor.org/NewTimes%20Survey/The%20Corporate%20State.htm
    The Programme begins:

    Jeremy Lee, who has continually warned us what is happening to this nation, published in 1995 “Local Government, Amalgamation, Regionalisation & the Hilmer Report” where the programme was spelt out. It was a programme that came with the arrival of the Whitlam Federal Government in 1972, and the plans for its completion were anticipated somewhere before the end of the century.

    The programme included:

    · A large reduction of the number of Local Authorities in Australia by amalgamation:

    · The formation of REDOs (Regional Economic Development Organisations) made up in part of the amalgamated Authorities, with a mixture of elected councillors permanent government commissioners and nominees from various industry and social organisations, including trade unions in policy implementation under central direction;

    · The replacement of the existing States with the proposed REDOs, through the redirection of funds from the financial monopoly the Federal Government has acquired;

    · The replacement of the Crown, with its reserve powers, by a republic;

    · The Introduction of a National Competition Policy, as set out in the Hilmer Report; and

    · The Integration of the Australian economy into a global model in which the World Trade Organisation – the operative arm of the GATT – is the principal decision-maker about productive, trade and workplace practices in Australia.

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    Joe V.

    Conviction politicians. Isn’t it remarkable how nowadays they are never done for the lies told to us. Only for deceiving the Judiciary and for profiting from Parliamentary expenses (though not in his case) after press led public outrage caused a revisionist view of acceptable practise for MP’s claiming for personal expenses , to be applied retrospectively.
    Whereas crimes against humanity perpetuated in public office , seem to be beyond reproach. ‘Huhne condemns us all to fuel poverty’

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    Popeye

    “The planet has set a significant – and unwelcome – landmark with the concentration of heat-trapping carbon dioxide in the atmosphere passing 400 parts per million for the first time in more than 3 million years …”

    Hahahahahaha – must REALLY peeve the people over at 350.org – this would be a day from hell for them!!

    I wonder what they think of the latest NASA news about how GREAT CO2 is now (after all the years of BS from them as well).

    I noticed ABC 24 running a ticker at the bottom of the screen this morning saying “Carbon pollution exceeds 400ppm for first time in 3 million years”. They also obviously haven’t heard about the NASA report or they’d be reporting it as well – wouldn’t they????? Mmmmm – probably not!!

    The SCAM is over – just that some IDIOTS haven’t heard yet.

    Cheers,

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    Speedy

    How to stop the storms? It doesn’t matter. If it rains too much, it’s due to global warming. If it doesn’t rain enough, it’s due to global warming. Tim Flannery told me.

    Cheers,

    Speedy

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    Roy Hogue

    I’m sure everyone has heard about the 400 ppm milestone by now. This is the kind of reporting it’s getting. It’s going completely unquestioned. It’s now “fact” whether it’s actually fact or not.

    How can you fight something with the weight and circulation of The Associated Press? It isn’t goats we need, it’s skeptical journalists.

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      Joe V.

      It can mostly be attributed to the out-gassing of journalists & ploticians.

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        Roy Hogue

        Joe,

        I wonder if that gas isn’t the thing responsible for global warming. What do ya think? ;-)

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          Joe V.

          Do you mean actual physical warming of the planet Roy, or just all the hoo ha surrounding the idea of it .
          I suppose, indirectly any reduction in burning of fossil fuels , particularly eg. derdy coal , that may result from the hoo ha, can reduce earth’s albedo and thereby promote more warming by insolation. But otherwise we may attribute a lot to the gassing of journals and pollies, though not actual planetary warming. (IMO).

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      What isn’t a fact? Is CO2 *not* a greenhouse gas? Or has it *not* reached 400ppm?

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        Actually, Principia Scientific and Dr. Roy Spencer are having a heated argument over the “CO2 is a greenhouse gas” question. Yes, most scientists agree CO2 is a greenhouse gas (depending on the definition of “greenhouse gas”, one would suppose).
        The 400 ppm seems quite likely. I would note that the “drop-dead” point for CO2 is now 450 or 550 or something like that. Higher than whatever we are currently at.

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    Joe V.

    Goats, pigs, camels (& what was the other one?), feral or otherwise, are part of the carbon cycle. Tinkering with them will have at best no significant effect, or otherwise consequences unintended, though not for the climate.
    Haven’t you antipodeans learned yet, from all those unfortunate attempts at species management to leave well alone ?

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      Dennis

      Please note that feral or introduced species in Australia are causing the demise of native creatures and many cause considerable environmental damage. Early settlers brought Rabbits and Foxes and other animals that are now causing problems and are increasing in numbers.

      Domestic Dogs have been breeding with Dingos and the wild dog population is attacking farm animals and native animals. Wild once domestic Cats are increasing in size and they kill for pleasure. Wild Pigs cause tremendous damage and are dangerous. Just some of the issues.

      Ask our farmers and graziers about the feral creature situation that the majority of Australians who live along the coastline do not encounter, well farmers do in coastal rural areas but not with Camels and Buffalo and various other pests.

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      Joe V.

      Yes, I appreciate the introduced species were perhaps the first lesson learned the hard way, by their sometimes devastating impact on indigenous species and on an environment that can’t sustain them. Eradicating the introduced species for conservation reasons, may have been desirable, if it were any longer feasible, but not on the pretence of saving the planet from their digestive gasses.

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    PowerToThePeople

    Using Goats at polluted sites such as Airports (aviation fuels, etc.) won’t work as Goats will only feed on “good” vegetation – they will probably need to use Sheep who don’t have a clue – except that as soon as there are load noises (aircraft engines etc.), they will all run away…………..ha, ha, ha

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      mc

      Hey Power,10 thumbs up! What an image. Clueless, hapless flock of sheep nonchalantly chewing on chemical coated grass and slurping up puddles of spilled aviation fuel when suddenly, spooked by a big commotion, scatter in all directions, fleeing for their LIVES! Fell off my chair laughing.

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    http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/24868

    “Sustainable Vegetation Grazing Services” There’s a special place in the hereafter for whomever came up with “sustainable” (the only thing sustainable is apparently human stupidity) and those who blindly follow with using the term. I think “idiot” every time I hear the term, along with “you’re stupid and will buy this”, “clueless”, “easily conned”–nothing that would want to get me within miles of the business selling the lie.

    Anyway, if Power is right, is appears airports everywhere will be overrun with vegetation soon in the name of hoodwinking clueless people into following like sheep (which may be why greens avoid using sheep for grazing–they’re afraid the “sustainable” crowd will feel too much empathy–unionized the beasts and demand more pay, better living conditions, maybe even voting rights, etc).

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    bananabender

    Amazingly only ruminants in Western countries emit methane. Apparently the several billion cattle, buffalo and goats in India are non-emitters.

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      You know that is very interesting. I had no thought of that. Maybe it’s because it’s because they don’t eat the ruminants in that country? More an animal rights thing disguised as climate change?

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    Garry G

    But don’t goats emit methane? Isn’t methane 25 times more effective as a “green house” gas?

    Boy, this sure gets confusing.

    Have these people never heard of herbicides? Be done with it already.

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