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Electric cars are worse for the environment

When everything else about being Green turns out to be a pox on the environment, it’s no surprise that electric cars are too.

The Norwegian University of Science and Technology study found greenhouse gas emissions [of electric cars] rose dramatically if coal was used to produce the electricity.

Electric car factories also emitted more toxic waste than conventional car factories, their report in the Journal of Industrial Ecology said.

So electric cars are only bad if they are powered by coal fired electricity, or made in a factory. Oh.

Presumably the aspiring Green needs a hand-made hydroelectric car, right? That, or the kind of car that has 18 gears, a chain and two wheels.

The kicker with electric vehicles, or EVs, is that awful secret that batteries don’t grow on trees, don’t recharge spontaneously either, and need replacing every five years or so. There is no getting around the fact that electric vehicles need electricity. They may not emit any evil CO2 themselves, but they have to get those electrons from somewhere, and in most places that’s from coal.

And it wasn’t just the coal, it was other stages of the “life-cycle” too. The production of EVs produced about twice as much CO2 (which makes me think the headline is wrong, and actually Electric Cars are better for the environment). But it’s not just about carbon emissions, it about the batteries, the minerals, the magnets, nearly everything really.

“Across the other impacts considered in the analysis including potential for effects related to acid rain, airborne particulate matter, smog, human toxicity, ecosystem toxicity and depletion of fossil fuel and mineral resources, electric vehicles consistently perform worse or on par with modern internal combustion engine vehicles, despite virtually zero direct emissions during operation,” according to Prof Stromman.

Figure 1 (below) compares different kinds of cars, different fuel sources, different batteries, and looks at the life-cycle total damage. Normal cars are labelled ICEV (internal combustion engine vehicle). Electric vehicle = EV. So note the difference between the gas guzzling type of car (“IECV D” for diesel and “IECV G” for gasoline) and the EV type of cars powered by NG (Natural Gas) or C (Coal). Source .

electric cars, environmental damage

Figure 1 compares six transportation technologies in terms of ten life cycle environmental impact categories. The cases represent an LiNCM or LiFePO4 EV powered by European average electricity (Euro), an LiNCM EV powered by either natural gas (NG) or coal (C) electricity, and an ICEV [normal internal combustion engine car] powered by either gasoline (G) or diesel (D). Impacts are broken down in terms of life cycle stages and normalized to the greatest impact. Differences between the impacts of the two EV options arise solely from differences in the production of the batteries.  Figure 1. Normalized impacts of vehicle production. Results for each impact category have been normalized to the largest total impact. Global warming (GWP), terrestrial acidification (TAP), particulate matter formation (PMFP), photochemical oxidation formation (POFP), human toxicity (HTP), freshwater eco-toxicity (FETP), terrestrial eco-toxicity (TETP), freshwater eutrophication (FEP), mineral resource depletion (MDP), fossil resource depletion (FDP), internal combustion engine vehicle (ICEV), electric vehicle (EV), lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4), lithium nickel cobalt manganese (LiNCM), coal (C), natural gas (NG), European electricity mix (Euro).

 

Here in Australia, 85% of the electricity comes from coal. For electric cars downunder, the message is clear:

…in regions where fossil fuels are the main sources of power, electric cars offer no benefits and may even cause more harm, the report said.

In the end, it’s not that you can pick between a petrol, diesel or electric car, its that you can choose fossil fuels or fossil fuels. Will that be liquid fuel or the solid burned-at-a-distance kind? It’s a coal-powered-car indeed.

Luckily for the environment, there aren’t many electric cars on the road downunder. Better Place (that’s a company name) are trying to set up a network in Melbourne.

Electric vehicle network plugs in

MELBOURNE will be the fourth place in the world to get an electric vehicle network as the Silicon Valley-based technology company Better Place embarks on the next stage of its $1 billion Australian expansion plans.

Mr Agassi said Better Place was also looking at linking capital cities along Australia’s eastern seaboard. It eventually envisages 500 charge stations across the country. “We looked at the Melbourne-Brisbane road. If you think of the corridor — Melbourne, Canberra, Sydney, Brisbane — it is the same length from San Diego to Seattle.

This is the part I like best:

Better Place has targeted Australia because it has the world’s seventh-highest per capita rate of car ownership, with more than 15 million cars on the road.

And how many of those 15 million cars are electric? Not too many.  Last year national sales of electric cars in Australia was a grand total of 49 cars. That’s almost one new electric car on the road each week!

So if you are that person this week who is thinking of buying an electric car in Australia, all I can say is: make sure you are buying it for its road handling and acceleration.

REFERENCE

Hawkins, R., Singh, B., Majeau-Bettez, G.,  Strømman A.H. (2012) Comparative Environmental Life Cycle Assessment of Conventional and Electric Vehicles, Journal of Industrial Ecology,  DOI: 10.1111/j.1530-9290.2012.00532.x

 

h/t Darren Porter

 

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Tiny Url for this post: http://tinyurl.com/942soc6

211 comments to Electric cars are worse for the environment

  • #
    James

    What’s the result if powered is sourced from solar panels instead?


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      Crakar24

      You cant drive at night?


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      dp

      1.3kw per square meter arrives on earth from the sun (appx). Conversion of that to useful energy removes quite a bit of that energy as waste. The batteries in the cars are serially wired to produce hundreds of volts. That requires a power conversion module to convert the low voltage, low current of solar cells to a useful voltage. You need lots of square meters/car to recharge those batteries. Do the math, don’t drive at night, don’t drive far during the day, keep two days supply of water, food, and blankets in your car. If you live in the Canadian Rocky Mountains keep your doors locked and windows closed and don’t feed the bears.


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        James

        Lucky most people don’t live in the Rockies, nor are they so narrow minded.

        http://www.themorningbulletin.com.au/news/facing-life-with-renewed-energy-geoff-clarke/1393085/

        The vehicle, an electric Mitsubishi, can be recharged from the mains.

        But Geoff, chief executive of the Chameleon Group of Companies, has gone above and beyond in his quest to embrace the future, by hooking up the vehicle to a wind turbine on his premises on the Bruce Hwy.

        Visitors to the first Capricorn Innovation Festival this weekend will be able to take a drive in the i-MiEV saloon car which Geoff can also juice-up using solar panels.

        I’m glad to live on a planet with such innovative people.


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        • #
          Crakar24

          Yes but can it tow a caravan?


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        • #

          Yep! Nice innovation there.

          Mitsubishi MiEV – $48,800 after the Government rebate.

          Home Wind Turbine – around $8,500 Minimum (You will need a 3KW system minimum, because the car needs 2800Watts to recharge the batteries in the optimum short period)

          Replacement battery pack – Not stated but around $15,000+ every seven years (They come with a 5 year warranty only)

          80 to 120 KM range for a car the size of a Toyota Yaris or Honda Jazz, smaller really.

          These will sell like crazy. (/s)

          Tony.


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          • #
            Rereke Whakaaro

            Nissan has stopped production of the Leaf, citing poor battery performance. That is the press release.

            However, I am also told that the number of sales does not cover the overhead costs of the showroom floor space, which is probably closer to the truth. No point in stocking an item if it is going to cost you money that you cannot recoup in the sale.

            Mind you, they are not lying, because the batteries have a tendency to fail whilst they are still under warranty – oops!


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            Bob Massey

            You forgot to add the 45 min recharge stop every 200 kms Tony, if the damn thing makes it that far.


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            James

            Your economic modelling makes some guesses about battery life/cost and doesn’t factor in future technology costing less when its time to replace the battery.

            None the less, I agree they’re expensive, that wasn’t the point, so are many cars. This post was about being “green”.

            Technically the electric cars CAN be green(er) if you power them from electricity from clean sources.


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            elva

            I am not sure so this cane be disputed. But I think I heard a report Toyota was not going to continue producing hybrid cars. The sales were so disappointing. Also the Federal government only has about 0.1% of its car fleet as hybrids. So much for their lecturing to the public.


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          • #

            James,

            having chased up information on electric cars from numerous sources, and, as someone trained in the Electrical trade, it always struck me as incongruous that claims could be made that these vehicles could lay claim to be being totally green if they sourced their battery charging (plug in refuel) from green renewable power sources from the grid.

            Sounds great and I’m sure that the Greenies would lap it up, having zero understanding about electrical power.

            Now, having purchased one of these wonderful automobiles, (and here forget about the idiocy of buying a home wind tower to provide the power for the recharge, and hmm, just wondering how pleased the neighbours would be if people actually started installing wind towers in their back yards) and having paid the $500+ to have an electrician come in and install all the wirng and circuitry for the cars dedicated 15 Amp outlet, and having paid the extra $400+ on every 90 day power bill, you can also have the option of paying extra so that the recharging power can be sourced from renewable power sources only, adding to that warm inner green glow, knowing that your electric car is now 100% fully green.

            Umm, the electric power comes down the electric lines connected to your home. The electrons flow wherever the power is required. I was just wondering how the car distributors can say that the electrons flowing from the power lines and then to the car outlet for recharging are just those renewable electrons.

            The grid has many power plants connected to it. Here, in Australia, the power supplied to the grids is made up from 85%+ plants that emit CO2, those dirty disgusting foul polluting fossil fuel plants. (/s) Barely 2% of any grid is made up of renewable power.

            The grid is the grid, all sources. There are no green electrons that by magic will miraculously find their way from the renewable power plant, down the wires, and then into your house, and then only to that recharging point for your electric car’s batteries.

            Have you ever heard of a bigger con. Saying that for a little extra you can source your recharging power from renewable sources only.

            The same applies for the electricity power providers that offer the same deal, that you can source your home’s power from renewable power plants only by paying a little extra. How do they miraculously flick a switch that ensures all your home’s power is from renewable plants only. You are connected to the grid only. They do not send someone out to rewire your home all the way back to that renewable power plant.

            What an absolute joke. Green people must have a visible gene that is only seen by con men.

            Bewdy, here’s another sucker.

            Tony.


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            Mattb

            Tony when James says “Technically the electric cars CAN be green(er) if you power them from electricity from clean sources.” I think you have done a Mattb and made assumptions that are not there.

            You’ve answered as though James said they are clean and green if you just tick a greenpower box and pay a toke few cents more, whereas I took James’ statement to mean that if the car is charged from a grid that is actually powered by green power then they would be clean and green. Now of course that is not an option in Australia, but I think you read too much in to James’ post.


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          • #
            Greg Cavanagh

            To elva;
            Over the last decade, our local Council has had many hybrid cars of all manufacture. Now, we have none. We turn over a car about every 100,000 km, which is generally 2 to 3 years.

            While I don’t know for sure why we no longer buy or lease hybrids, we did at least go to the exercise of trying them. I drove one; it had plenty of power and generally worked as advertised. I just didn’t like the vehicle itself (Commodore driver).


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          • #

            Okay MattB, point taken.

            So then, here’s the exercise for you.

            Find me anywhere, (on the whole of Planet Earth) where there is a specifically renewable power only large scale Green Grid.

            When a power plant is commisssioned, no matter what type of plant, it is then connected to the existing grid.

            By law, MattB, by law, they are not allowed to exclusively have their own grid. They must be connected to the grid as a whole.

            Anyway, do you seriously think that any renewable plant would actually WANT to have its own grid. If that happened, then people would immediately see that those renewable plants cannot deliver power for when it is actually needed. Then the people would really see just how useless these types of Plant really are.

            The Principal Operators of any renewable plant would actually scream to be connected to the overall grid, because in that way, the impression is that there is power available all the time, and it most effectively covers up the inability of those renewable plants to supply their power on that constant 24/7/365 basis.

            Sometimes MattB, I really think that you have no CDF.

            Tony.


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            Mattb

            Tony I’m pretty sure you are aware that I share your views on the nuts and bolts of energy production and grids. I’m not talking about a stand alone renewable grid though… I’m talking about THE grid being supplied by low-carbon sources.

            So basically the argument is that if the total of sources that supply the grid emitted say 80% of the GHGs of a traditional supply then one could consider that to be a good source of electricity for a “green” electric vehicle. I don;t think you can really argue with that. THe relibability, cost, or other technical realities are a completely different topic.

            What IS going to be the reall killer for EVs is shale oil. It is going great gangs so the p[ressure in the US to reduce oil imports/use is dropping.

            To me EVs are what you do when you have no oil and are worried about supply (either in terms of running out of geopolitical stability).


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            James

            @Tony

            Barely 2% of any grid is made up of renewable power.

            I’m sure you’re right, and I wouldn’t dare consider the source of the following information to be more reliable than you, given your youthful appearance I doubt you’re out of date about anything, however it does state

            “Tasmania generates 86 per cent of its energy from renewable sources, Queensland 8 per cent, NSW 6 per cent, Western Australia 5 per cent and Victoria 3.9 per cent.”

            But aside from those states, you’re probably right about the 2% thing.


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          • #

            Yep,

            nearly all of it Hydro, from those filthy disgusting river stopping dams. (/s)

            Renewables of green favour, Wind and Solar make up barely 2% of consumed power.

            Nice ageism comment there too.

            Tony.


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            James

            No worries Basil. Filthy disgusting river stopping dams that already exist are a source of RENEWABLE POWER. Check your original statement. ;)


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          • #
            Mattb

            Quick survey… I know things can go great guns, or go gangbusters, but can I get an opinion on my new phrase “going great gangs”?


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        • #
          Ceetee

          Two things James, never quote Wikipee as a source, it makes you look completely naive and try and be a bit more critical and questioning of all the stuff your political masters have spoonfed you. And also, you don’t know any real and innovative people because they don’t move within your sphere of influence. It’s obvious given the tripe you write.
          By the way, are you a fill in or were you rostered for Wednesdays?.


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            James

            Two things James, never quote Wikipee as a source, it makes you look completely naive …

            Try debating the facts rather than the person. What in particular about the formation of coal do you reject and on what basis? Please site the science when you do so, not some evangelical creationist website.

            And also, you don’t know any real and innovative people because they don’t move within your sphere of influence.

            You obviously don’t know what I do for a living. ;)


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          • #
            Mattb

            saying never quote wikipee shows an outrageous lack of ability to think critically. The key is to not take it as gospel, but it is a logical fallacy to say that any use of wikipedia is unreliable.


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          Geoff Sherrington

          But, it gets more complex because the wind does not blow all the time, so you have to have outages or a backup generator that produces CO2 byproduct.

          Simple physics says that more power is needed to propel a heavy car than a light one. Adding a half tonne of batteries HAS to incur a penalty.

          But, there’s always doubt. No doubt about that.


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    • #

      Do you mean the Chinese solar panels that are made using electricity made by burning Australian coal? Same for wind turbines which use spare parts as fuel. Fool.


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    • #
      NoFixedAddress

      hahahahahahahaahahaaahhahhaha.
      thats a good one.
      tell me another joke…..
      please…please…


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    • #
      Grant (NZ)

      Even “green sourced” electricity generates heat. There is no way around the outcome that the consumption of energy has a heat output in some way. Petrol engines produce heat. Electric motors produce heat. That heat is released into the atmosphere. Just because it was “green sourced” does not mean there isn’t a heating effect to the environment.


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    • #
      David Hewison

      It would also take a week to recharge the car.


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  • #
    Crakar24

    Another green dream bite the dust, i heard one of those Greens senators in parliament yesterday screaming about how the unemployed dont get enough benefits and we should be paying them more, i asked myself the question “and where would this extra cash come from………..me through more higher taxes”.

    Then i cast my mind back to all of the wastes of monies from this government to many to mention here of course but now i have another one to add to the list.


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    • #
      KinkyKeith

      Hi Crackar,

      you mention “wastes of monies” but I think we all know that it has been stolen or if you want to be less

      threatening: Legally Misappropriated.

      KK


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  • #
    Neville

    Electric vehicles are as big a con and fraud as the mitigation of AGW, or Kyoto,or dangerous SLR, more tornadoes, more hurricanes etc.
    In 1990 human emissions of co2 were 21.6 bn tonnes pa, 10 bn tonnes by the Non OECD and 11.6 bn by the OECD.
    But by 2010 the non OECD tonnage had increased to 18.8 bn tonnes pa and the OECD to just 13 bn tonnes pa.

    http://www.eia.gov/cfapps/ipdbproject/iedindex3.cfm?tid=90&pid=44&aid=8&cid=CG6,CG5,&syid=1990&eyid=2010&unit=MMTCD
    If we add the years 2011 and 2012 ( not yet published) the non OECD could be emitting close to the same tonnage as the entire world emitted only 22 years ago.

    The mitigation of AGW has to be the greatest con and fraud in history and all the billions $ wasted in Australia on a co2 tax can only deliver us a 100% guaranteed zero return on investment.


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  • #
    pat

    ain’t the internet a wonderful thing!

    10 Oct: Haaretz Israel: Yoram Gabison/Daniel Schmil: Agassi steps down from Better Place’s board
    Agassi was engaged in dispute with Better Place’s parent company, the Israel Corporation, over his recent termination.
    Shai Agassi stepped down from his position on Better Place’s board of directors on Tuesday, after he was replaced last week as the company’s CEO, and despite a promise to the company’s workers not to do so.
    According to officials within the company’s vehicle department, Agassi, who owns less than 5% of the company, became entangled in a conflict with the Israel Corporation, Better Place’s parent company, over his termination…
    ***Better Place, the money-losing firm building infrastructure for electric cars here and abroad, is the latest headache for the Israel Corporation.
    The troubles at Better Place come on the heels of Israel Corporation’s problematic decision to invest $1 billion over the past four years in Zim Israel.
    Now Israel Corporation has to consider whether to inject additional funds into Better Place after investing $229 million in the venture.
    Facing a cash crunch, Better Place is seeking an additional $150 million from investors…
    The company lost $132 million in the first half, leaving it with $131 million in cash and cash equivalents as it burned through its capital at an accelerated pace. It has had $104 million negative cash flow since the beginning of the year.
    Israel Corporation controls 28% of Better Place and its chairman, Idan Ofer, owns 8% personally. Better Place has sold only 457 cars in Israel as of last month.
    Last week, Agassi replaced as CEO of Better Place by Evan Thornley, who had served as CEO of its Australian subsidiary…
    Through a partnership with Renault, Better Place is close to completing nationwide networks in Israel and Denmark and has started work in Australia, although there are limited numbers of electric cars on the roads so far…
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/agassi-steps-down-from-better-place-s-board.premium-1.468982

    will post a link from The Age in a second comment to show that this is, indeed, the brand-new CEO:

    Wikipedia: Evan Thornley
    Evan William Thornley (born 1964), former Australian politician and entrepreneur, was a Labor member of the Victorian Legislative Council for the Southern Metropolitan Region. He was a founder (with his wife, Tracey Ellery) and former Chairman and CEO of internet search company Looksmart Ltd…
    Thornley is Chair of Per Capita and National Secretary of the Australian Fabian Society. He is a board member of the Brotherhood of St Laurence and the Chifley Research Centre, was a founding director of GetUp!, and a founding officer of the National Union of Students…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Thornley


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    • #
      bananabender

      Evan Thornley was talking about Better Place eventually being a $100 billion company just last week.


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      • #
        Sceptical Sam

        Who better than Evan Thornley, a Labor Party flunky, to tap his drip feed lines into the Federal Government’s dollar bank which is refilled by sucking the blood out of the Australian taxpayer.

        The Labor mates have another bludger to look after it seems.

        This has to stop before Draculiar drains us all.


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    • #
      NoFixedAddress

      Evan Thornley…..

      F*cking bring it on….

      I want FOI documents right this instance.

      And from Treasury department.


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  • #
    Hasbeen

    What a belly laugh. A university study has finally announced this momentous finding. Of course those interested in things automotive have been telling them this for 20 years. I guess most of them didn’t want to hear, & getting money for such a study was difficult.

    Reminds me of another belly laugh, this one on the Australian Institute of Marine Science.

    Remember when they announced their momentous finding that coral all release their spore into the water on the same night? Now I would have found that fascinating, if I had nor been told just that, 20 years before, by a professional reef fisherman, who’d left school at 12.

    If these researchers would just get out a bit more, they might not have to find the hard way, what has been known for years.

    I’m just mean enough to like saying “I told you so”, so here’s another couple.

    Wind generators don’t reduce CO2 production from electricity generation.

    Ethanol/bio diesel from agriculture provides less energy than it takes to produce, & releases more CO2, than the hydrocarbon fuel it replaces.

    Now, can we get on with life.


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    • #
      Gee Aye

      Remember when they announced their momentous finding that coral all release their spore into the water on the same night? Now I would have found that fascinating, if I had nor been told just that, 20 years before, by a professional reef fisherman, who’d left school at 12.

      was your belly laugh because you mischaracterised their announcement or because you didn’t understand it?


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      Gee Aye

      OK… a non narky reply.

      Your attempt to mischaracterise AIMS in order to strengthen your argument just makes your argument look stupid.

      Some facts. Knowledge of spawning synchrony goes back a long way (I have no idea how long) and good systematic observational and experimental studies exist post WW2. AIMS began in the 70s and has publications on this subject from that decade (ie more than 20 years ago).

      So Hasbeen, what made you laugh?


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      • #
        Hasbeen

        Just for you Gee Aye, it was actually 1971, on my first trip on my yacht that the conversion took place.

        I was complaining about the horrible brown, {& to a lesser extent yellow] junk floating in vast areas, of many hundreds of acres extent, which stained the topsides of boats. The old fisherman just laughed & fed me the information. It was very old hat to him.


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        • #
          Winston

          I believe it’s called reinventing the wheel. There was no knowledge prior to 1975, doncha know- just ask Gee Aye.

          So, Gee, how’s that 20 year landmark peer-reviewed study into round rolley things going? Found any uses for it yet?


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          • #
            Gee Aye

            what are you talking about?


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          • #
            KinkyKeith

            It has been predicted that a trend currently nearing its peak will max out in 2020.

            That trend is the increasing coverage of “everything” by University studies.

            It has been calculated by a Sustainability Psychologist that by the year 2020, all available topics

            will have been examined by a PhD candidate and from then on it will be impossible to find a topic for

            PhD candidature.

            University staff levels will drop by 10% in the first 5 years after 2020 and the community will

            experience higher levels of Mental Health outcomes as result of the lifting of the obsessive mental

            phog surrounding PhDism.

            Media reports will no longer begin with “A scientist said” and and phrases such as “35% of all respondents said…” will no longer be in use.

            Common sense will resurface and new laws will be passed that enable retrospective prosecution of all politicians found to have been feathering their own nests.

            An aging politician with an Australian accent claiming to be a Mr Rudd will be arrested trying to burn

            down the united nations building in New York because, as he said “they promised me a seat on the

            executive committee but they lied”.

            Yes Kev all politicians Lie.

            KK :)


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          • #
            KinkyKeith

            And Gee

            That’s what I’m talkin about.

            kk


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        • #
          Gee Aye

          so your experience was before AIMS was instituted. How was Aims able to study these things before it existed? Also, your experience was not before the phenomenon had been noted in scientific journals. And your point and reason for mirth? Come on tell us about the AIMS announcement that was amusing.

          Amuse us.


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            Hasbeen

            Gee Aye, you have tender toes, can I interest you in some steel toed boots? I hope you are not one of those PHD students I used to transport to & accommodation at our reef tourist facility a quite a few years back. They appeared intelligent & sensible, but then academia can do strange things, even to good people.

            Yes old chap, I remember when AIMS & the Marine park authority were formed. I also remember carting the authority board, & the top AIMS lot out to the reef one day, along with a couple of hundred tourists. On the way the board chair, an English or history professor as I remember, was telling me our operation would be destroyed by the Crown of Thorns plague.

            When I told her our divers had only seen one in recent months, she suggested we should get her experts to make sure we knew what they looked like.

            You’re not an English professor are you Gee Aye?


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    • #
      bananabender

      The major car makers worked out that electric cars were a dud 100 years ago.


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  • #
    pat

    21 Jan 2009: The Age: Thornley: Why I shunned cabinet seat
    As a cabinet seat beckoned, Evan Thornley’s thoughts were already set on a better place, write Marc Moncrief and Paul Austin
    EVAN Thornley was sound asleep on the other side of the world when Victorian police breached the calm of Christmas Eve to charge state cabinet minister Theo Theophanous with rape.
    On holiday with his family in France, Mr Thornley was woken by a “firestorm of e-mail and text” from back home, telling him Theophanous had resigned and urging him to break off his holiday and return for an emergency post-Christmas meeting of caucus. The signals were that the 44-year-old MP, who had entered Parliament only two years earlier, would win promotion to the cabinet…
    What the colleagues frantically ringing and texting did not know — and Mr Thornley still did not tell them — was that he had been considering a future away from politics for months. He had been speaking to electric car company Better Place…
    Yesterday, after weeks of sometimes angry speculation over why he quit politics, Mr Thornley finally resurfaced to announce his new job as Better Place’s Australian chief executive — and to give his version of events…
    Mr Thornley said he became aware of San Francisco-based Better Place, and its visionary leader Shai Agassi, in May through a friend at Vantage Point, a venture capital firm he knew through his time at the helm of internet search engine LookSmart in Silicon Valley…
    Mr Thornley said his first meeting with the company came in mid-August, when an associate at the Australia Israel Chamber of Commerce suggested he might be able to give Better Place some advice about doing business in Australia…
    “Let’s be clear. What I now understand, which I didn’t even know about then, (was that) these guys had had a whole series of meetings with the Victorian Government prior to me even meeting them — with some tens of people over some number of meetings — and already had secured the support of the Victorian Government.”
    The fruits of those negotiations became clear on October 23, when Premier John Brumby and and Innovation Minister Gavin Jennings announced a working group to “examine the development of fuel-efficient vehicle technology, with a particular focus on the development of the first generation of electric vehicles”.
    The working group was launched to coincide with the announcement that Better Place would establish its Australian headquarters in Melbourne…
    Mr Thornley said he had done nothing wrong by moving straight from a senior government position to a plum private sector job. He had not been introduced to Better Place because of his role in government, but rather because of his successful history in Silicon Valley. He had never advanced the interests of Better Place within the Government and he would never misuse his knowledge of the inner workings of government inappropriately.
    “I can understand, in the absence of any explanation, why people might have thought — particularly given the history of some others — ‘He’s leaving government to go to the private sector and his role in the private sector is to help people with government’,” Mr Thornley said yesterday. “I’m not that guy.”…
    Mr Thornley accepts his decision has damaged Mr Brumby and the Government. “I’m obviously not in any way happy to have caused (that) amount of turmoil.”
    http://www.theage.com.au/national/thornley-why-i-shunned-cabinet-seat-20090120-7lp7.html


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    handjive

    And, applying the twisted, ‘settled science’ logic of the CAGW alarmist bedwetters, driving an electric car will keep the water in the ocean:

    A study published Oct. 4 in the journal Geophysical Research Letters found that the (sea level) decline was due to an enormous increase in the

    amount of rainfall in Australia, northern South America and Southeast Asia, which transferred a significant amount of water from the oceans to the land.

    Remember, the 2011 floods were a direct result of mining coal and carbon dioxide.

    .

    Well, unless you are a climate scientist at the once respected CSIRO:

    “The world’s subtropical dry zones are shifting towards the poles, resulting in sharp rainfall declines during April and May in regions such as

    southern Australia, according to a study by CSIRO scientists. ***(BoM, March 2011- Wettest March on record)

    The effects of the shift were greater for Australia than southern Africa and South America, the two other major landforms studied.”

    .

    The effects of the shift were greater for Australia?

    Might that be because the CSIRO is advocating for a scientific carbon (sic) tax as forced on hapless voters by their broke political paymasters?

    So much for the theory that AGW increases water vapor and positive feedback.

    .

    But, the once respected CSIRO has another problem:

    Sea levels rising, and so is the CSIRO’s margin for error

    “The second CSIRO and Bureau of Meteorology State of the Climate report found ocean levels had risen 210mm around the world on average since 1880.
    But the study also acknowledged that the margin of error for the average result was plus or minus 30mm.”

    .

    Exacerbating the effects the un-settled, contradictory junk science of the CSIRO is the problem that it will be incorporated in the next UN-IPCC report AR5 as gold plated science for policy making:

    Government starts review of draft IPCC working report

    ” Earlier this week, CSIRO scientists released analysis showing a big drop in autumnal rains over southern Australia in recent decades, with a warming atmosphere deemed to be part of the cause.”

    The GreenLaboUr Australian Government assures the IPCC Assessment Reports undergo rigorous review processes to ensure they present an objective and complete assessment of current information.

    That would be only if you ‘believe’ in the CSIRO settled science of man made global warming.


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    pat

    dotcom bubble, CAGW CO2 bubble, what’s the difference when the Australian was still spruiking this company last week. investors beware:

    4 Oct: Australian: Richard Gluyas: Thornley drives to a Better Place
    EVAN Thornley’s rise to global chief executive of the electric-car charging company Better Place is a classic case of the visionary business founder giving way to competent management for the next stage of growth…
    In another life, he co-founded the internet search engine LookSmart, which was briefly in the mix to survive the brutal round of dot.com natural selection and become a serious industry player.
    At LookSmart’s peak, Thornley was sitting on a $1 billion paper fortune.
    But the “small and scrappy player”, as he termed it, was outgunned by the likes of Yahoo! and Google, which exploited their scale to develop automated algorithms for the ranking of web pages instead of LookSmart’s costly human editors.
    The company’s fate was sealed in 2003, when it lost two-thirds of its revenue after Microsoft decided it would no longer use the LookSmart search engine on its MSN website…
    Better Place has only been around for five years, with founder and chief executive Shai Agassi raising $US750 million ($734m) in venture capital to rapidly roll out his vision of running a country without oil.
    He and Thornley are said to be close, and Agassi will remain on the board of the US-based company, so there is no suggestion that the chief executive of Better Place Australia engineered some kind of palace coup…
    While Renault is Better Place’s global partner, Thornley was instrumental in pulling together the EV Engineering consortium, which aims to develop a proof-of-concept Australian electric vehicle with local partners, including Air International, Bosch, Continental, Futuris and GE.
    EV, chaired by former Mitsubishi boss Rob McEniry, is reportedly negotiating with GM Holden and the federal government to assemble 126 electric Holdens at GMH’s Adelaide plant, potentially leading to mass production.
    Better Place likes to raise capital in its local markets, completing a $25m raising in Australia in 2009-10 that attracted the likes of Lend Lease, RACV and ActewAGL, the company’s energy partner in Canberra…
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/opinion/thornley-drives-to-a-better-place/story-e6frg9wx-1226487685091


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    Mattb

    Hmmm… it still appears logical to me that the issue of urban air quality is best addressed with electric cars and the power station pollution being produced away from the urban area vs the pollution being produced at street level around people.

    Having electric heaters in cities certainly helped compared to solid fuel burning heaters… but an equivalent study to this one could well have shown that less pollution is caused by the latter.


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      Mattb

      That said… and I paraphrase my seminal Newman and Kenworthy… electric cars are a solution for car dependent communities struggling with higher fuel prices… there is very little “environmentally friendly” about them. They are an auto-industry solution, not a sustainable solution.


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      Hasbeen

      Could not agree less with that one.

      If anyone has to breath in the cities pollution, it most definitely should be the people of that city. It should not be transported to the country, & imposed upon these, smarter, people living there.


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      I can recall as far back as the 60′s when (even then) environmentalists wanted to reduce cars in urban areas, eg, people driving their cars to and from work.

      What they wanted was better public transport, eg shifting the work force from driving to work to taking trains especially, buses and trams to work.

      So gazillions have been spent over those intervening decades upgrading rail, busways, trams etc, and the only result has been that people still prefer to drive to work. So they spent gazillions on the road networks requiring traffic control, eg large amounts of constant and regular electric power.

      So now the thought is that they introduce electric cars, because really, they’re only aimed at the local short drive market, because, let’s face it, they are useless for Australia’s long haul Interstate driving.

      So now you have (dream on) a huge fleet of electric vehicles, all requiring charging during the working day for the commute home, and then charging overnight for the morning commute, because perish the thought that the batteries might go flat if there is a backup on the urban road network during the evening commute, and hey, how rare is that? (/sarc)

      So now, with all that extra rail network (requiring constant regulated large amounts of electrical power) extra Tramways (requiring constant regular large amounts of electrical power) we now add to that electric cars with batteries that require constant regular large amounts of electrical power.

      And here we are saying that we desperately need to close down those only power plants capable of providing that large constant regualar electrical power.

      As MattB mentions here:

      ….. it still appears logical to me that the issue of urban air quality is best addressed with electric cars and the power station pollution being produced away from the urban area vs the pollution being produced at street level around people.

      Yeah, electric cars in urban areas, and coal fired power where green eyes won’t be offended by the sight of all that CO2 being emitted, so they can have that bright green inner glow that they are doing something for the (urban) environment.

      Simple really, Just move the emissions somewhere else, and with electric cars, for longer periods of time with greater peaks, meaning we will now require those CO2 emitting plants for as long as the electric car fad lasts.

      Tony.


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        Mattb

        Tony: Would you rather live in a city where all hydrocarbons were burned at point of use rather than at a power station? Let’s not restrict this to cars? I thought you were a big fan of coal power stations anyway?


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          MattB,

          just a gentle, polite, and friendly reminder.

          You need to temper that propensity for misconstruing what I said into what you thought I might have been thinking, because at no stage anywhere in what I wrote did I even intimate anything about not being a fan of coal fired power.

          Thanks.

          Tony.


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          Philip Bradley

          Matt is right in a narrow sense.

          Electric cars were originally promoted as a solution for urban vehicle pollution. A problem that was largely solved by catalytic converters, unleaded petrol and other changes.

          So the potential for reducing urban pollution is limited, and electric cars consume substantially more energy, and if mains electricity is used, that means substantially increased CO2 emissions, as I have been saying for years. By my estimate, electric cars in Australia will produce double the CO2 emissions of a diesel or LPG equivalent.

          But that won’t stop the huge government subsidies being funneled into electric cars in Australia.


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      bananabender

      Modern internal combustion engines are so efficient that they actually clean the air. The air that comes out of the exhaust has less oxides of nitrogen, carbon monoxide and particulates than the air that enters the engine.


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      Rereke Whakaaro

      There is another down side to electric cars — they are quiet, so people don’t hear them coming, and the number of car/pedestrian accidents increases, especially in shopping areas.

      Mind you, it is not just electric cars that are the problem, the same thing applies to the good old electric trolly bus. In fact recently in Wellington (NZ) a Director of the bus company got run over by one of his own trolly busses. Fortunately he survived. But the driver was very shaken.


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        Winston

        My 97 year old great great grandmother was run over and killed by an electric tram in Adelaide for exactly that reason, RW. Didn’t hear it coming. From what I gather, she was apparently such a feisty and fearsome woman that she would have given it some curry if she’d heard it early enough to turn around and confront it. Sad but true.


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        I believe electric cars will become wildly popular when:
        A) The average charge lasts about as long as a full tank of petrol with a similar performance.
        B) A recharge takes about as long to fill a tank with petrol at a much lower cost.
        C) The world finally abandons its’ “low carbon” quest and recognizes coal to be one of natures true gifts and
        D) Pigs learn to fly.


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        Mattb

        modern normal cars are bloody quiet too.


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          John Brookes

          Strangely enough Matt, I think that 30 years from now people will not believe the noise traffic today made. The other thing that will change is that almost all cars will be self-driving. People will look back with total disbelief at the idea that people were free to maim and kill others through their recklessness or incompetence behind the wheel.


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          bananabender

          Ever heard a Mercedes C63 or BMW M3 under hard acceleration? Not at all quiet.


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    Hasbeen

    Another aside on the CO2 efficiency of electric cars. & new cars in general.

    During the height of the “Cash for Clunkers” in the UK, where government was paying people to crush their old car, if they bought a new one, a UK classic car [old not vintage] magazine sponsored a study on the financial costs, & the CO2 emissions involved.

    This involved evaluating restoring 10, 20 & 30 year old cars to top running condition, & running then for 10 years, as against buying different new cars, & running them for 10 years. The economics & total CO2 emission results were surprisingly similar.

    And the winner was, the 20 year old car, closely followed by the 30 year old car. Although the engines & drive line of the younger ones performed beautifully, the cost of depreciation & replacing all the electronics that died, & air bags as well meant the younger cars were much more expensive. Adding the CO2 emitted in manufacture meant the new car was a clear looser there as well. 10 years of 2.5L/100Km just doesn’t make up for that.

    The surprise was the 10 year old car doing worse than the older cars. The killer was the extra CO2 involved in replacement of all the extra toys as they wore out that spoiled their results.


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      tim

      Also consider the Volt electric-car battery. Apart from the normal replacement cost,a very expensive ‘Volt’ battery could also burst into flame and/or explode – as lithium-ion batteries apparently can. This will possibly require a complete battery replacement in the event of damage. What sort of insurance risk calculations/premiums would insurers be looking at?


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        John Brookes

        Good point tim. Rather than batteries, we should have tanks that we fill with volatile hydrocarbons. At least we know that stuff like petrol doesn’t burn.


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          Rereke Whakaaro

          Quite right John. Stuff like petrol — diesel, in fact — doesn’t burn at atmospheric pressure and normal ambient temperatures.

          Very safe, very convenient, and more economical than petrol. What is not to like?


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        • #

          An electric car battery is like taking a few liters of petrol, evaporating it, mixing with 15 times the mass of air and then compressing it into a small volume(note: do this last slowly and run water over the container to keep it cool while so doing!). Then the formerly relatively safe petrol(battery) is ready to go for you.


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          • #
            Mark D.

            like taking a few liters of petrol, evaporating it, mixing with 15 times the mass of air and then compressing it into a small volume(note: do this last slowly and run water over the container to keep it cool while so doing!)

            That’s the Stoichiometric system, ain’t it great? Repeat 4 times each revolution and you’d be right back where we are already.


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          tim

          My topic was expense, not safety (although there’s probably catastophic vehicle petrol/gas explosions on roads across the planet as we write.)


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    • #
      manalive

      And the winner was, the 20 year old car, closely followed by the 30 year old car …

      I bought a very expensive toy 29 years ago and am still driving it with 330,000 Km on the clock.
      It’s had one engine and a couple of gearbox overhauls with the usual clutch replacements etc. and still goes and goes.
      At the time (before the Great Climate Change Derangement) I copped a lot of scorn and disapprobation from the usual suspects who are now no doubt avid CAGW enthusiasts (we have lost contact) and who have probably been through five or six cars in that time.


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        Gnome

        There was a time (only a few years ago) when you could get historic vehicle registration for a 25 year old car. Now it’s 30 years, and cars just keep getting better.

        They’ll probably just keep moving the goalposts until your car finally wears out!


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      Power Grab

      I would love to read that study that compared the maintenance of older cars versus sending them to be crushed and buying a new one. Do you have a link to the article?


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    Mattb

    THere is actually a pretty cool blog on this exact paper at the Guardian, including responses to blog posts by the paper’s authors. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2012/oct/05/electric-cars-emissions-bad-environment


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    • #

      Read the article, read the comments. Laughed at all the self professed guilt, handwringing and self loathing, not to mention a reference to wikipedia. The Guardian really has become a cultist rag.


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        Mattb

        Funny when I read it the guardian pretty much supported the view of Jo’s article (just better written and less bias), and many comments were corrected with direct comments from the authors. Then again I’m not surprised you think what you do as you appear to have a brain the size of a pea, and a small one at that.

        [You're welcome] ED


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    pat

    well, here’s a doozy of a power station smack bang in a fast-growing residential area near to where i live:

    27 April: Phoenix propose big heat for Queensland
    Phoenix Power Recyclers have received a licence from the Department of Environment and Resource Management (DERM) in Queensland to build a 400,000 tonne per annum greenwaste processing facility, including approval to produce 150WM of renewable energy.
    The site, located at Yatala half way between Brisbane and the Gold Coast, currently processes 200,000 tonnes per year of greenwaste. Principal inputs include municipal greenwaste, but also some C&D and C&I timber…
    Neville Brownlow, MD Phoenix Power Recyclers said a number of industry trends have made him look to expanding the site. These trends include the growth of food waste diversion, the carbon price and the potential for a return of the Queensland waste levy…
    In addition to new composting capacity, Phoenix Power Recyclers also hopes to build a 15MW waste to energy plant at the site, with scope to expand…
    In order to increase the capacity of the site, Brownlow hopes to raise $50 million, with promises for capital from looking from ***Low Carbon Australia, the Australian Greenhouse Office and AusIndustry.
    http://www.ben-global.com/storyview.asp?storyID=9587716&section=Waste+News+Feature&sectionsource=s1450140

    ***Low Carbon Australia Board
    Mike Rann, Chairman, Low Carbon Australia CNZM
    Mike Rann was Premier of South Australia from 2002 to 2011 and was Labor Party leader for a record 17 years. First elected in 1985, he served for 26 years in the South Australian Parliament holding a variety of Ministerial positions…
    Tanya Cox, Director, Low Carbon Australia
    Ms Cox has held various general management positions, including Director and Chief Operating Officer of NM Rothschild & Sons (Australia) Ltd and General Manager – Finance, Operations and IT for Bank of New Zealand (Australia)…
    Linda Nicholls, Director, Low Carbon Australia AO
    Currently a Director of a number of leading Australian companies and organisations, Mrs Nicholls is Chairman of Yarra Trams, and a Director of Fairfax Media and Sigma Pharmaceutical Group…
    Martijn Wilder, Director, Low Carbon Australia AM
    Mr Wilder is a Partner with law firm Baker & McKenzie where he established and manages its Global Environmental Markets and Climate Change…
    http://www.lowcarbonaustralia.com.au/about-us/our-board.aspx

    the State Govt was supposed to decide on the application today, but it has delayed for two weeks. this is the local residents’ alliance:

    The Yatala Residents Alliance
    In 2010, Phoenix Power Recyclers submitted an application to the Gold Coast City Council for a Material Change of Use at their current Sandy Creek Road premises. The application if approved will allow the Phoenix plant to burn green waste in an incinerator 24 hours per day, 7 days a week, as fuel for a 7 Mega Watt Power Station. The incinerator will include a 30m high chimney that will emit gases and pollutants into the air. Read our Objection Report.
    http://www.yatala.info/Yatala/Welcome.html

    from our local paper today:

    As well as concerns about noise pollution, odours, increased traffic and falling property values, the Yatala Residents Alliance is worried that emissions from the plant’s 30m chimney stack 24 hours a day, seven days a week, will affect people’s health.
    A petition organised by the alliance against the plant, which would generate electricity for the statewide grid, was signed by 5200 people in four weeks and has been tabled in State Parliament and given to council…

    from a July article:

    Mr Osborne said there were 12 schools and 11 childcare centres within a 7km radius of the proposed plant…
    “We’re also concerned about three families who live across the road and 200m from the site in Sandy Creek Road…

    LET’S PUT AN END TO THE CAGW CARBON COWBOYS.


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      Hasbeen

      They should build it in the CBD. George St would be suitable.

      How many remember the tens of millions lost on the power station built at the Rocky Point sugar mill to use the crushing waste.

      It worked OK, if not efficiently on the mill waste, it was trying to get it to burn other stuff during the non harvest season that was the trouble.

      I recall an auction of tax payer funded plant many years back. Just from memory, I think $50 millions worth went for $6 million. Typical result of government buying greeny votes, with our money.


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    High-speed trains are being offered as lollies to voters in Canberra for their territorial elections.

    A single issue party is campaiging on Facebook but seem to be having problems answering reasonable questions. (Links to my blog.)

    Amongst other things, they:
    * have a hankering to cycle through Sydney within an hour.
    * produce lovely posters full of (unreferenced) facts.
    * think that nuclear-/hydro-powered trains in Sweden are somewhat akin to Australia’s coal-powered ones.
    * appear ignorant of the increasing riskiness of electricity supply in Australia
    * have little idea about the technical details and difficulties in providing a competitive, safe, reliable and attractive train service.
    * don’t understand that private funding has the expectation of turning a profit.
    * be unable to do some basic arithmetic on costs.
    * prefer to have others do their thinking for them.


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      Winston

      And you reckon the Education Revolution wasn’t a success, Bernd. Ha, it has exceeded all expectations! It took decades of concerted effort to produce such outcomes, you know. Nothing that good happens by accident. I say we double down and aim higher. What we need is a good slogan though – how about “No man alive, with an IQ over 85!” Now there’s a bumper sticker for every Prius owner to treasure.


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      AndyG55

      I’ve down a nice amount of vino :-) ).. so what I say may not make sense and may have typos. sobeit.

      Fast trains are a good idea, been to France, Paris-Lyon VFT.. magic…. but how to do it and make it viable in Australia is a real issue.

      I live in Newcastle, nearly 3 hours by train to Sydney.. ITS A JOKE! 150Km in 3hrs..modern age.. DOH !!!! But what to do ???

      Being an engineer (ie the front part of a train) I have looked at the geography between Newy and Sydney.. I can tell you.. its gunna cost a motza !

      Sydney-Canberra is easy in comparison… and the route to Melborne isn’t too bad either.

      Even Bris-Melborne is pretty simple through Dubbo etc

      Think a network that opens up regional NSW, Vic. Tamworth Armidale become domitory.

      Instead of the mining tax, ask the mining companies to do the building work (its what they do), airlines to do the booking stuff.

      Reduces Melborne-Sydney air trafic and CBD to CBD would probably be quicker !!


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      • #

        Instead of the mining tax, ask the mining companies to do the building work (its what they do), airlines to do the booking stuff.

        Anybody can do the actual booking. Amadeus is located in a bunker just outside of Munich and it does all the booking stuff, etc. for airlines, hotels, rail travel and major car rental companies. A major competitor is Sabre.

        One can do without it for commuter-style booking, and indeed it can be a PITA to deal with walk-up capacity as well as pre-booked. DB often has over-filled ICE where passengers are left standing; which they should not be in a high-speed train.

        While the Newcastle trains might be worthwhile speeding up, I’m guessing that it’s not the maximum speeds of the trains that are the limiting factor (locos could do 150 km/h in the 1930′s), but the nature of the tracks and the stations. According to Wonkypedia, it’s 168km with 31 stations. Totally bind-moggling. That’s an hour, stopped. An express train, were it feasible with available (parallel) tracks, could cut that 3 hours to under 2 hours servicing around 6 major, intermediate stops. e.g. Central, Strathfield, Hornsby, Woy Woy, Gosford, Wyong, Fassifern, Newcastle — going largely by the maps and the tales of woe I’ve heard/read from travellers. I’m only personally familiar with the city rail sections.

        Should be able to halve the travel time between Gosford and Sydney … which I mention only because my cousin does that commute.

        If it could be done with mainly scheduling and signalling changes, then it wouldn’t cost “billions”.


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          AndyG55

          Broadmeadow to Central

          Slow train : 2hr 50min

          Express: 2hr 28mins (skips many stations)

          XPT: 2hr 20mins (only 4 or 5 stops)

          When its crowded, it can be a nightmare !!!

          Driving down isn’t quicker, (unless there’s a prang on the F3) but where to park the car in Sydney if you aren’t a millionaire.


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          • #

            Hard to imagine that the trains could be slower than those in East Germany in the late 1980′s. For the German ones, the trains could go faster (up to 160 km/h) but the tracks and signalling were decrepid, slowing average speeds to less than 20 km/h in some segments.

            Mixing 3 “speeds” of trains on the same route requires separate tracks to avoid scheduling conflicts. Germany has lots of problems with domino-effect scheduling upsets. Even in Germany, where there is quite a lot of track infrastructure, all it takes to disrupt the connections and appointments of 100,000 people is an express delayed for half an hour while a “jumper” is removed from an overhead bridge.

            Over-full trains aren’t a pleasant mode of travel. Intolerable for some.

            As for parking in Sickney, I’ve had no problems on recent trips. I just drive to the rental car returns, and drop off the key at the desk. ;-)

            A fundamental problem in the 21st century is that 19th century habits prevail; whereby millions come to worship in the monolith temples of corporations and government in and around a CBD. That hasn’t been what I would call “rational behaviour” since the 1970′s. Communications and transport efficiency allow for a more dispersed growth pattern which Australia can enjoy because it has the space to spread out development making ccongestion a problem taken care of by a spoonful of medicine or a lolly.


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        KinkyKeith

        Hi Andy

        Memories.

        My wife and I traveled all over Europe a few years ago on their rail system

        VFT from Paris To Brussels was the only high speed run that I remember but even the standard trains and overnight sleepers were good.

        We passed through Montpellier, Padua, Rome, Sion, Interlaaken, Grindlewald, Kleine Scheideger and Jungfrau, Venice and more.

        As Bernd says, we can schedule better; perhaps, to clear the line it might be more economic to run shuttle buses to bring people in from outlying stations to Fassifern, Wyong and Gosford.

        kk


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    Richard

    They ‘looked at the Melbourne-Brisbane road’.

    “Mr Agassi said Better Place was also looking at linking capital cities along Australia’s eastern seaboard. It eventually envisages 500 charge stations across the country. “We looked at the Melbourne-Brisbane road. If you think of the corridor — Melbourne, Canberra, Sydney, Brisbane — it is the same length from San Diego to Seattle.”

    If they went Melbourne, Canberra, Sydney, Brisbane, then their GPS was obviously faulty. Nobody in their right mind would go via Sydney, let alone Canberra, to get to Brisbane. This is how you do it:

    Up the Hume from Melbourne to Seymour, turn left to go to Shep, take the bypass and keep going via Numurkah until you get to Tocumwal. Now you’re on the Newell Hwy. Follow it for 1,000km until you get to Goondiwindi on the QLD border. Remember to take the left fork just after Coonabarabran so you go through the pilliga forest before you get to Narrabri and then Moree. After Goondiwindi, take the Leichart Hwy to Toowoomba and follow the signs to Brisbane.

    It’s a nice drive.


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    pat

    Hasbeen -

    as u may know, the yatala/beenleigh/ormeau region was agricultural not too long ago, but is now a fast-growing residential and industrial region. there is another problem with the number of quarries in the area, which probably are no longer suitable for such a built-up environment.


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      Hasbeen

      Pat I think it’s ridiculous. Even Rocky Point was not suitable.

      If they could not get one viable, when it had a constant supply of the identical fuel for 6/7 months of the year, they have no chance with stale bread as fuel one day, & cauliflower outer leaves the next.

      Still I would like to see one tried in George street.


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    Dave

    .
    The toxic waste produced when making these EV car batteries is bad enough -
    But it will be the disposal of them that will cause the big problem for future generations.

    And James would like to power them with windmills?
    Look at this toxic dump in China as a result of just making the magnets.

    Greens want to feel good about doing their bit for pollution? Pollution reducing CO2 feel good – but what they are doing is poisioning the environment. As long as its in China and not their backyard.

    Even the WWF is sprouting the benefit of these TOXIC vehicles – see WWF UK

    They say:

    WWF believes that EVs’ impact will be minimal so long as they are charged late at night, when demand for electricity is low.

    Hey any facts to back this up WWF?
    Do the coal power stations burn less coal at night?? :)

    And if James, MattyB & JB want to consider themselves as true Green Heros – catch the bloody bus!

    To the MB, JB et al: Do you consider CO2 a worse type of pollution than heavy metal processing dumps in India & China?


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      Winston

      Minor quibble,
      If everyone is recharging EVs at night, how will demand then be low! Millions of EVs, which aren’t on the grid currently ( no pun intended), all on their chargers at the same “off peak” time- no flaws in logic there?
      And I disagree, the Greens are doing their bit for pollution- maximizing it quite efficiently actually. Go team!


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        memoryvault

        .
        Don’t forget the desal plants supposedly designed to run on ‘off-peak’ power (like the one in Perth). Plus, presumably, the Greens would like their intercity trains, urban light rail systems and trams to operate ‘off-peak’ as well.

        My back of the envelope calculations suggest we will need at least a 40% increase in BASELOAD power generation to supply all these “off-peak” intellectual wet dreams of the greenies.


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        John Brookes

        Won’t the cars have solar cells on the roof and sit in the sun and charge all day?


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          As regards having the cars charge in the sun all day – big problem with that, its called bad weather, like clouds, rain, etc. If its a cloudy day or it rained you car won’t be charged up.. Also the little problem of surface area required, which will exceed the area of the vehicle concerned. also the little problem of avoiding parking in a place with high buildings near by so your car does fall into shadow – a problem in a large city. Also in cities most car parks tend to be multi story buildings, if everyone goes electric only the guys who got in to park on the roof will enjoy some possible solar charging…

          In a nutshell you would need to be be a bit barking to think solar powered electric vehicles are in anyway viable given our urbanization.

          As regards the diagram, to certain extent it states the obvious for me – techs like batteries and high power motors (unless you want something weighing 20k each) require ‘exotic’ materials which require more extensive manufacturing techniques – hence the environmental damage is higher. Golf carts are about the only practical electric vehicle and they are expensive to buy & maintain but fulfill a specific function quite well (namely zipping around a golf course and being charged from a central point, notice how there are always a whole fleet in excess of the expected usage?)

          Another totally unrealistic and impractical Green pipe dream – the economic market IS killing this dead, even despite all the grant and tax tweaking – nobody wants to buy expensive toxic lemons.


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          Winston

          And where in the city can commuters park all day in the sun? George St, or up the Gutter in Pitt St? How on earth are working people able to find enough open space in the city to park to allow that John? And it’s not like you can park on the outskirts and commute in either by train, because there’s no parking there either. And that is ignoring the difficulties on days when it is cloudy or raining, and whether there is sufficient surface area on the vehicle to allow that to be feasible to generate sufficient charge, etc. When you can fully work out the details of how that would work, the get back to us. Otherwise it is just another unrealistic pipe dream, the kernel of an idea that no one has bothered to actually work out the details for, nothing sufficiently well planned to base a society upon. The above analysis shows that those with an Eco-agenda can’t think beyond the concept stage of any proposition they make. The devil is in the details.


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          So let’s see: Say a couple of Sq m of solar cells, at 15% efficiency have a peak output of of around 300 Watts. During the day, allowing for clouds, shading etc you might be lucky to average 200 watts. For an 8 hour work day that’s 1600W-hours. Knock off a little for battery charging inefficiency. Say 1500Watt-hours. A reasonable small car battery has a capacity of 20,000 Watt-hours. So, no.

          Didn’t you claim to have a degree in Physics? Really?


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      Mattb

      “catch the bloody bus!” – I DO!

      “Do you consider CO2 a worse type of pollution than heavy metal processing dumps in India & China?” – No. Do you? Modern technology in most forms has some poor bugger in a developing nation working in terrible conditions and with significant environmental impacts. Those Rare earth factories could be much cleaner and have better managed tailings dams, but you could find examples of crap like that in China nomatter what the industry. Doesn;t make it right it is just not exclusive to wind turbines.


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        Dave

        .
        Matty – YOU ARE driving the the poor buggers in developing countries to work in shocking toxic conditions with massive environmental impacts.

        You said earlier:

        urban air quality is best addressed with electric cars and the power station pollution being produced away from the urban area

        You cannot have this feel good Green thing with CO2, and yet let real pollution occur through the backdoor! Honestly there must be other solutions – not this crap EV Toxic car garbage.

        The electric cars will not be made in YOUR backyard Matty.

        Let’s get back to real environmentalism – (for the moment exclude CO2) and get rid of hevay metals, oil spills, start saving animal and plant species – not worrying about the cost of a ferry ride to Rottnest Island and it’s two diesel generators and the FEEL GREAT windmill.

        I was going to add some images of plants, animals (includes us) that have been affected by REAL pollution in third world countries. Mr. Ross Garnaut is also in this list of pictures of terrible toxic polluters in the world today.

        I don’t catch a bus – I don’t consider CO2 as pollution!

        How many people has CO2 killed?


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          Mattb

          And you’re not? I call you a liar.

          I catch the bus as it is convenient and easy. C02 does not have a lot to do with it. YOu asked me the question [snip] .


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      John Brookes

      I hate catching buses dave. I ride my bike though. But I don’t do it to save the planet, I do it because its fun, its cheap, and I don’t have to find a parking spot at the end. I drive too, and generally feel a little guilty about my laziness, and that I’ve wasted money.

      And of course we are all making a mess in 3rd world countries. And to equate the toxic waste from these mining operations with electric cars? If its the rare earth magnets, surely there are more of them in cordless drills? And lithium batteries, more of them in mobile phones, etc than electric cars I bet.

      But don’t worry guys, back in 1900, I bet there were luddites comparing those new fangled horseless carriage thingies with the good old fashioned horses, and showing that cars were a lousy investment.


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        MadJak

        JB:

        If its the rare earth magnets, surely there are more of them in cordless drills? And lithium batteries, more of them in mobile phones, etc than electric cars I bet

        So if everyone who owns a cmobile phone bought a Pious, are you saying that it would make it OK?

        RE:

        But don’t worry guys, back in 1900, I bet there were luddites comparing those new fangled horseless carriage thingies with the good old fashioned horses, and showing that cars were a lousy investment.

        It’s interesting you say this because horses can still fulfil some requirements cars cannot. They can get through some terrain where cars cannot and if you got drunk, your horse could invariably get you some safely (unlike a car).

        I notice there are some farmers in the states who have done the math and concluded that for their farms, it’s actually more economical to use horses than it is to use tractors. And no, they’re not luddites, they’re just being efficient.

        Finally, electric cars are a lousy investment – they’re expensive, toxic and coal powered. But as per my post further down – it’s not about doing what’s right by the environment, it’s about being seen to be doing right by the environment – that’s the important thing to most people who prattle on about forcing the use of these immature technologies.


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          Rereke Whakaaro

          … if you got drunk, your horse could invariably get you [home] safely …

          Ah, yes. Those were the days. I have even fallen asleep on the way home, and woken up when the rocking stopped, to find my horse patiently waiting at my front gate.

          Though getting off the horse to open the gate, was rarely elegant.


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            Hasbeen

            Better not do it today RW, you’ll get booked for drunk in charge of something or other.

            How the hell they can charge people for being “in-charge” of anything, when they are asleep I have no idea.


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            Rereke Whakaaro

            That was the beauty of it, There are precedents in common law. A horse is legally not a vehicle.


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        Dave

        .
        JB you say:

        And lithium batteries, more of them in mobile phones, etc than electric cars I bet.

        One new smart phone has less than 3 grams of lithium in the battery.
        One 25kWh all electric vehcile has over 23,000 grams of Lithium in the battery.

        Current numbers of HEVs and EVs today have more total Lithium than all the phones.

        Here is a projected sales forecast graph of EV’s if the GREEN movement has it’s way:
        Electric Vehicle Sales.

        If they only reach 10 million EV’s produced – the lithium requirement becomes 230 million kilograms for the batteries? Currently the world uses approximately 5 million kilograms of Lithium.

        A 46 times increase in mining of Lithium will cause the biggest environmental mess ever seen – all to produce nice TOXIC GREEN EVs.


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      Mattb

      “if James, MattyB & JB want to consider themselves as true Green Heros – catch the bloody bus!”

      As evidenced above… if I say I do I’m an idiot, if I say I don’t I’m a hypocrite? what’s the point Dave… seriosly what is the point in conversing with a [snip] like you.


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    Gnome

    The heater in an internal combustion engined car operates on waste heat from the engine. The air conditioner draws power directly from the engine via a drive belt.

    What powers the heater and airconditioner in an electric car? If it is the battery pack, what effect does this have on available mileage per charge and battery life?

    How far can you drive on a cold night with the heater and lights on? Can you deice the front and rear screens and run the heater on a frosty morning and still expect to get to work?

    On a hot day, do you have to drive with the windows closed to reduce drag and the airconditioner off to get the specified mileage?


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      memoryvault

      Hi Gnome,

      I haven’t seen anything on air conditioners in electric vehicles, but I did read an article last NH winter on a test involving use of a heater and lights (sorry no link).

      The car tested had a claimed capability of 80+ miles which wasn’t tested, but using the heater in sub-zero conditions dropped the distance on a full charge to 22 miles. Using the lights on high beam produced a similar result.

      Using the lights on high beam plus the heater resulted a range of eight miles.


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        Power Grab

        I would love to see that article, too! Wow! Use the high beam plus the heater and get only 8 miles total.

        Sounds like a golf cart would be more practical. What kind of mileage do they get to a charge?

        I wonder how many miles they get to a charge on one of those motorized wheelchairs?

        This extended solar minimum seems to have really turned people’s brains into something not unlike mashed banana, hasn’t it?


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        My 2 cents

        The airconditioning system in EV’s is basically a reverse cycle airconditioner running from the cars batteries. As a traditional vehicle employs the engine heat to heat the cabin this creates an different situation where heating uses more power than cooling in an EV. That said heating on full will typically reduce the total range of an EV by around 25% (cooling on full around 15%).

        Lights, wipers, radios, etc have negligible impact on the overall range as they run on a traditional 12V system. The 12V battery is in turn recharged via an inverter (there’s no alternator anymore) which draws hardly any current from the main battery pack.


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      AndyG55

      “What powers the heater and airconditioner in an electric car? ”

      Aircon is powered by the window button !!


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        Hasbeen

        Careful there mate, too much use of that window button, & you won’t get the thing out of the drive, before you have to call the tow truck. You might have to go all modern & fit a window winder.


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    Typical green hypocrisy – I’m reasonably sure there’s more than 49 of them who bought new cars in Oz in last year.

    Anyway, not only are EVs only fit for getting around golf courses at 4.5 mph, but they don’t sound like this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSAN7ZX02eA

    Pointman


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    John F. Hultquist

    Hi Jo,

    I’m late to the party, as usual, at 81 comments and counting.
    I looked through the comments and found many interesting thoughts but none that mentioned the transposition of letters in the Figure 1 caption. What starts as – ICEV – for Internal Combustion Engine Vehicle becomes – IECV – (with the D and G added for fuel type).

    I also did not see anyone mention that USA-Government Motors’s Volt is so lacking in demand they are going to give another $10,000 discount to buyers – and they are currently selling for about one-half what it costs to make one. Insofar as many in the USA could not get to a grocery store or hospital and back home in winter (for some, not in summer, either) with a pure EV, such things can only be considered for the second or third vehicle. When a better means of transport is found (think motor vehicles replacing horses in cities) it will be rapidly adopted. EVs are not there yet.


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    MadJak

    Electric cars are, for the most part Coal powered.

    The electicity used to charge up the electric cars either comes from a coal fired power station, or through the brakes of the car itself.

    I know, people can rip themselves off by buying so called “green energy, but lets face it, the baseload electricity is almost allways from one of those wonderful coal fired power stations.

    But isn’t that the point? It’s not about doing what’s right by the environment with these people, it’s all about being seen to be doing something right for the environment – regardless of the flow on consequences.

    I liked how Southpark refered to the Prius the Pious – a very apt description.


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    Angry

    Here is a great example of why electric cars are RUBBISH……

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtGp8Sha_mA&html5=True


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    pat

    ***note there’s an australian company in the mix:

    10 Oct: Reuters: German renewable surcharge to rise by 47 percent: source
    The 47 percent increase reflects the fact that renewable sources are providing increasing amounts of electricity, which is bought from producers at guaranteed prices above market rates.
    Coming a year ahead of a federal election in which Chancellor Angela Merkel will seek a third term, the sharp rise in the surcharge is politically charged.
    The so-called ‘Umlage’ — charges levied on German consumers to support renewable power — will rise to 5.3 euro cents per kilowatt hour (kWh) in 2013 from 3.6 cents in 2012, the source said…
    The four leading high voltage network operators (TSOs) are scheduled to officially release the increase on October 15, based on their forecast of renewable power production in 2013.
    They are 50Hertz, owned by Belgian Elia and ***Australian fund IFM, E.ON’s former high voltage grid unit TenneT, RWE’s former unit Amprion, and EnBW’s grid unit TransnetBW.
    All four operators declined to comment on the news…
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/10/us-germany-energy-renewables-idUSBRE8990PC20121010

    am presuming IFM is:

    Industry Funds Management: Board
    Garry Weaven is Chair of Industry Funds Management, a global fund manager owned by a number of Australian superannuation (pension) funds, and of Pacific Hydro, a leading Australian renewable energy company with extensive operations in Australia and South America. He is also a Director of Members Equity Bank and was a foundation Board member of Melbourne’s Docklands Authority as well as its successor, VicUrban. Garry was appointed to the Federal Government’s Superannuation Advisory Committee in 2008 and to the Australian Securities & Investments Commission’s External Advisory Panel in 2009.
    Garry’s involvement in superannuation and funds management follows a successful career in the Australian union movement, which culminated in him being elected Assistant Secretary of the ACTU in 1986…
    http://www.industryfundsmanagement.com/about/ifm-board-members/

    Industry Funds Management: Portfolio
    Acquisition date: 2010
    Location: Germany
    Description: Electricity transmission and distribution
    50Hertz is one of the four transmission system operators in Germany and owns and operates the electricity grid in the states of Thuringia, Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, Brandenburg, Berlin, Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, and Hamburg, totalling approximately 109,000 km². The company transports power to more than 18 million people and companies.
    http://www.industryfundsmanagement.eu/ifm-infrastructure-funds/current-portfolio/

    could be trouble on the way if the German people get really angry!


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      Gee Aye

      yeah Damian, I also love to celebrate when people lose their jobs and livelihood.


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        Angry

        They should not invested in such a bullshit industry which creates a means to needlessly increase Australians cost of living.

        No sympathy from me for these aholes !

        These “wildlife munchers” – wind turbines should be banned and any constructed should be destroyed !

        Some homework for you and your eco nut jobs….

        Wind Energy’s Ghosts:-

        http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/02/wind_energys_ghosts_1.html


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        Angry

        Who the hell is “Damian” ?

        “Gee Aye” you really shouldn’t take drugs and post on blogs simultaneously …


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          KinkyKeith

          Hi Angry

          Don’t take Gee Aye too seriously he has obviously not studied economics at all.

          He rubbishes others for not wanting “green waste jobs” but cant understand that the extra cost to the

          community adds to our production costs here and means that those items we may have produced here are now

          made somewhere else like China which has NO Carbon Tax.

          If he really had concern for the unemployed he would be trying to limit all of the green taxes and green

          tape that is stuffing our manufacturers.

          kk


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    Doug Proctor

    Electricity from solar panels can only be considered applicable to the production of electric vehicles if a) the plant is using solar power, or 2) the amount of electricity used in the making of the vehicles can be considered within that produced overall by solar power. But if 2) is considered, then some other thing can’t be considered powered by the sun.

    It’s all splitting hairs, however, when your energy sources are dominated by coal, oil and natural gas. In a practical sense, it is meaningless. It is only as a first-world intellectual exercise in angst that there is meaning. Which applies to most of the eco-green “solutions” to our use of fossil fuels.

    Get the hair-shirt masses to give up air conditioners and air travel. Now there would be an improvement. Including that I would be less liable to see them in airports or cool shopping malls (where they should not be, given that they are counter-consumerists, also).


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    Bruce of Newcastle

    Following on from Dave’s comment its easy to see that battery EV’s are not feasible for more than a very very few vehicles.

    All battery designs that are usable for electric vehicles require materials in limited supply. The three systems now in use are:

    1. Li ion which as Dave says is very limited by the availability of lithium
    2. NiMH which requires expensive nickel, lanthanum and volatile hydrogen
    3. Lead-acid, which is too heavy

    The problem is as soon the material chosen becomes in short supply, even temporarily, the price shoots up. A few years ago rare earth metals rose in price tenfold as a result of demand from wind turbine manufacturers, Priuses and other users of supermagnets etc.

    As soon as the price spikes the EV goes from a bit expensive to ludicrously uneconomic. These price spikes happen literally overnight, whereas it takes anything up to 20 years to get a mine going to produce more of the required metals.

    Furthermore there isn’t enough lithium in existence for more than a few million EV’s because nucleosynthesis is very unkind to it. Lithium is just not very common.

    The only battery system which is made from common materials that I know of is sodium-sulfur. There is enough of both that we would never run out. Unfortunate NaSx batteries have to run at over 200 C, which means your car may not do well in the Thredbo car park whilst on that ski weekend. I don’t see this system even being very practical for consumer vehicles, although I could be wrong.

    In short there can never be a mass conversion to battery vehicles because chemistry will not cooperate with this aim. Brutal but true.

    If our climate consensus people – MattB, John, James – wish to foster a greener car design I suggest pushing PGM-free fuel cell options not battery based vehicles.


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    John Brookes

    That Tony Abbott bloke is going well, isn’t he? Time for Malcolm to get back in the saddle…


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        memoryvault

        HYPOTHETICAL

        The Setting

        Rightly or wrongly, Abbott has been irrevocably smeared by the Handbag Brigade.
        Rightly or wrongly, Gillard has basically self-destructed.
        Australians have had a gutful of their politicians of all flavours and are looking for some leadership.

        Meanwhile, Malcolm Turnbull has stayed right out of it, has managed to have an article about himself in the news almost every day for the past two weeks, and has worked overtime to appear “statesman-like”.
        .
        The Scenario

        Malcolm Turnbull calls a press conference and makes a dramatic speech about the appalling state of the current Federal Parliament on BOTH sides of the House, laments that middle-class Australia is no longer represented by EITHER of the major parties, and announces his intention to resign from the Liberal party and sit on the cross-benches, where, with the others already there, they will hold the balance of power and return some sanity to Australian politics.

        Immediately a well-orchestrated campaign – a media blitz – swings into action exhorting Turnbull to form a new political party to represent “middle-class” Australians. Reluctantly, Turnbull agrees.

        Within a week or two the about forty Liberal “Wets” who would rather have Turnbull as leader anyway, have defected to his new party. Within another week the about 30 Labor backbenchers who KNOW they are going to lose their seats next election anyway, have also defected. Sometime soon after they are joined by the 10 or so Labor members who detest Gillard, probably led by Andrew McClelland.

        With a clear majority, Turnbull forces a vote of no-confidence. The GG reluctantly invites him to form a new government. Middle-class Australia breathes a collective sigh of relief while Abbott and Gillard get to fight over who occupies the Opposition benches.

        .
        And that boys and girls, is how The land of OZ became a wholly-owned subsidiary of Goldman-Sachs.


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      Odd isn’t it John.

      Tony Abbott said none of those despicable things said by Peter Slipper.

      And yet, every single Labor woman voted to keep Slipper on as Speaker, as did every Labor MP in The House, and even the two Independents voted for him as well, while, prior to the vote, they already knew he was going to resign, as it was those two Independents who made the deal with him.

      That’s more than a little inconvenient, eh! Hypocrisy in the most extreme.

      Tony.


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          Bungalow Bill

          Well I don’t think Swan or whoever from the ALP wrote the script.

          But…………..

          With all that’s happened recently, you think people would have more sense.

          Now did you listen to Seasick Steve?????


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            Heywood

            “Well I don’t think Swan or whoever from the ALP wrote the script”

            No. But he was laughing along with it. That makes it OK huh?


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            Bill,

            yes, I did watch that. Amazing how he does it with barely 3 strings. ‘Coke Bottling’ helps.

            Amazing isn’t it, just how easily political arguments that might become heated are so easily defused at the merest mention of music.

            When I first heard this instrumental, I wanted to learn to play the guitar, Then when I heard this instrumental, that thought was further enhanced.

            The, along came that Neil Young album Harvest, and that spurred me to buy a guitar, take 6 lessons, practice 3 to 4 hours a day on scales that drove my room mates crazy, and they would tell me to go practice outside. My fingertips almost bled at times with those steel strings (Ernie Ball Super Slinkies) Then it was onto chords, again banished from the room.

            Then onto a better acoustic guitar, with a stiffer fret board neck. That second guitar was an absolutely wonderful Emperador. Cost me $295 which was mid range at the time, in 1973 but I don’t think I ever played a guitar with a better tone than that one.

            All I wanted to do was to learn that title track Harvest, and then Old Man, still my favourite two songs.

            Over the years I’ve got out of playing, marriage, kids, you know. But I just love any (good) guitar music.

            However, music is my one big vice, if it can actually be called that. Now I like nearly everything, and there’s so much beautiful music from the past that is just so wonderful.

            Always change the subject with music is my motto.

            Tony.


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            Bill,

            I went to (a lot of) parties in those early 70′s in my young Air Force days. They always split into three groups. One gathered around the 18 gallon keg. The second, the heads, all laying on the floor looking at the warm coloured oil slide show on the wall, and those who gathered around the speaker boxes listening to the music and flicking through the albums, the group I most identified with. We would often try to find all the faces cleverly incorporated into both sides of Carlos Santana’s fist album, the one with the lion on the cover.

            Great days and even greater music.

            Tony.


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            Bungalow Bill

            Hi Tony !!!

            Amazing isn’t it, just how easily political arguments that might become heated are so easily defused at the merest mention of music.

            Yeah this is much more interesting.

            Great instrumentals there, and you can include Europa and Song of The Wind. Also listen to Santana’s “Trane” off Blues For Salvador, so much power!!!!

            There’s nothing worse than learner guitarist: ask my wife!!!!

            I took it up late (32) and played in bands for a while with some really good players, but got sick of the crap and a nice dose of tinnitus convinced me to give it away.

            I still noodle around at home on a Maton acoustic and a home built Strat copy. I have a Rickenbacker 360/12 and 330, 620 and 610 with a 4004Cii Bass if I really want to upset the neighbours!!!!

            However, music is my one big vice, if it can actually be called that. Now I like nearly everything, and there’s so much beautiful music from the past that is just so wonderful.

            You won’t get any argument from me on that!!!!

            While I enjoy and admire a lot of guitar players, if I could play like BB King my life would be complete!!!!

            To Be Continued!!!

            Cheers


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            Mattb

            Saw Seasick Steve at Freo Blues and Roots a few years back. Amazing.


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            Bill,

            we’re a million miles off topic I know, and sorry for that, but this eases the tension, and others might comment that perhaps we should ‘get a room’.

            I have a regular weekly Music Post at my site. Here’s the link and there’s pages and pages going back 4 years now.

            Sunday Music

            Perhaps this from Ry Cooder might be just one point of call.

            FDR In Trinidad

            Tony.


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            Bungalow Bill

            Thanks Tony,

            I’ll see you over there,…….maybe sometime next week as I have a few days work coming up.

            Cheers!!


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          Heywood

          Easy Tony,

          Bongwater Bill is getting all his info from The Age, more commonly known as Pravda within the left collective.

          He is obviously easily led by the biased missives contained within that rag.

          Besides, all he has is a power bill and a letter accidently sent to Craig Thomson (It was sent to ALL the independents). His side are all on record for supporting Slipper whilst denouncing sexism. It is gross hypocrisy, nothing more, nothing less.

          Power over Principle. Whatever it takes.


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          Catamon

          So what was the joke?? She didn’t look real happy in the big house today as her cohorts were getting slapped around, but when does she ever?


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      • #

        I guess that being Labor supporters and believing your side is OK, then voting to keep Slipper is OK by you, no matter what he said, and umm, Nicola Roxon has known the content of these text messages for 4 months.

        Oh you hypocites!

        Tony.


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          Bungalow Bill

          Oh you hypocites!

          Don’t you dare include me in that category!!!!!!!

          I don’t vote for any of them!!!!!


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          John Brookes

          I think the point, Tony, is that despite the texts and Slipper’s generally unsavoury behaviour, he did his job ok. The Libs went after him, not on a matter of principal, but because Tony can’t wait to get into the lodge. With his “sky is falling” attitude to the carbon tax clearly wrong, he is in an even bigger hurry than before.

          So there are a lot of people (Liberal and Labor) who are suddenly easily offended. Personally, I loved Julia’s speech about not being lectured to about sexism or misogyny by “that man”. The longer they last, the more impressed I am by the government, which is lucky for me, because they’ll probably be gone next year…


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      Bruce of Newcastle

      What is worse, a Goldman Sachs (aka “giant vampire squid”) eco-capitalist or an Australian Fabian Society socialist?

      For the record I’m not a happy camper since Greg Combet is my local MP.

      Perhaps John if you and I work together we could get Dennis Jensen to stand for the leadership. He’s an actual scientist, the only one in Federal Parliament. I’m sure if you just show him your data you could convince him of your climate case.


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        memoryvault

        .
        I think you’re going to get the vampire squid. See my HYPOTHETICAL above.


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            Mattb

            YOu reckon Barnett is a Turnbull-aligned Liberal? ready to jump ship.


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            memoryvault

            .
            No, I mean that the public disgust with Australian Federal politics is going to become very vocal and very public. Barnett’s comments are just the start.

            Who Barnett aligns himself with is irrelevant. Goldman-Sachs are Principal financiers to Rio Tinto, and major financiers to BHPB, Rineheart, Twiggy Forrest and Clive Palmer, amongst others. To all intent and purpose Goldman-Sachs now control the Nine network.

            Rio Tinto and Goldman-Sachs are both principally controlled by the House of Rothschild, which is also a major shareholder in BHPB.

            We live in interesting times.


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            Bruce of Newcastle

            Its a fun idea MV but you’ve forgotten the ALP tribal fringe benefits scheme. Since tribal lefties control many bureaucracies, state govts and uni’s, you have to be a loyal Laborite to be old-boyed into whatever spot is going. You know: IR commissions, reviews, ambassadorships, state government trade quangos. There’s zillions of juicy jobs out there and none of them are for Labor rats.

            So 30 disaffected ALP’ers might say to Turnbull “you can count on me” but I bet you spades to shovels that he’d end up like a shag on a rock with only his forty thieves.


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            memoryvault

            .
            I think you’ll find the Goldman-Sachs Mutual Benefit Fund provides a lot more scope for redundant politicians than the ALP Fringe Benefits Scheme.


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            Winston

            To any Liberal watchers reading this blog- if Malcolm Turnbull is Opposition leader at the next election, I will vote for Julia Gillard (the worst PM in living memory- and I have been among her most vocal and strident critics) out of contempt and spite, and will tirelessly encourage every one of the several thousand people I talk to in very my marginal Central Coast seat to do likewise- that’s not a warning- that’s a promise! So put that in your pipe and smoke it.


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            AndyG55

            Winston.. I’ll just put a large X across my ballot paper if Turnbull is put in a Lib leader. Neither party would get my vote.

            I also am in a possibly very marginal seat (same one as Bruce). I have emailed Liberal headquarters several times and told them this.


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          Gnome

          Won’t happen. Anything Turnbull touches will turn into another Republic referendum. He is friendless.

          Anyway, all those Labor members in marginal electorates think that although the gumment will go down ignominously, they will be the ones who keep their seats. Like Elena Ceaucescu, they will be lying in their gutters confidently telling their executioners that this isn’t happening because they are too lovable to die. (I’m OK. I just feel sorry for all my colleagues who didn’t work as hard for their electorates.) Ahhh reality!

          I am an unhappy gnome today though because I had settled down to enjoy the last of this gumment with Peter Slimer in the Chair. One of my great joys is gone and I am now back to hoping the election comes soon. It might happen too, because the gumment thinks Gillard has had a fine win over Abbott on misogyny.

          As a woman I was shocked by the hypocrisy of her defending Slippery on Tuesday, but on reflection, it wasn’t out of character.

          Someone should get Gillard a vuvuzela. She could blow it passionately and joyously in Parliament and she would sound better and make as much sense as her misogyny speech.

          (ps- I am not a woman.)


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      AndyG55

      Yes, he is.. He has Gillard in a totally uncontrolled lather..

      Poor feeble mindedd child doesn’t know what to do, so lashes out in frustration, and Mr Abbott just sits and smiles.

      Abbott:10 Gillard :0


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    AndyG55

    I think its funny when all the rusted on Labor voters say they want Turnbull as Liberal leader.

    They probably wouldn’t de-rust anyway. They just like the idea of only having left, far left and moronically green left as the only choices.

    Most Liberal voters do not want Turnbull as Liberal leader.


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    pat

    Angry -

    more on RPG Group:

    10 Oct: Manufacturers Monthly: Brent Balinski: RPG cuts 154 staff
    David Ridgway, South Australian opposition planning spokesman, blamed the federal government’s promotion of renewable energy for job losses.
    “RPG once made crane booms and mining equipment, but bolstered by subsidies, handouts and incentives the company got heavily involved in wind farm towers,” Ridgway told The Australian.
    “This isn’t about wind power. It’s about more Labor lies in claiming a mining, food and agriculture, tourism and wind energy jobs boom. Labor is gripped by a cargo cult mentality.”…
    http://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/rpg-cuts-154-staff

    how much taxpyer money they got is something we need to find out.

    69 jobs go in South Australia:

    10 Oct: Adelaide Advertiser: 154 jobs to go after RPG Group shuts three plants; 69 in SA
    http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/more-than-150-jobs-to-go-after-rpg-group-shuts-three-plants/story-e6frea6u-1226492624547


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    pat

    look how ABC attempts to blame the “debate” & gives airtime to the wind energy industry & the Clean Energy Council before getting to anywhere near the facts:

    10 Oct: ABC PM: Carbon tax debate blamed for renewable blow
    BRENDAN TREMBATH: The wind energy industry has blamed uncertainty before the carbon tax’s introduction for the collapse of a leading wind tower manufacturer. RPG Group is in administration and half of its 310 staff in South Australia and Queensland have lost their jobs. But others argue the industry has been built on false hope…
    ANNIE GUEST: One hundred and fifty four of RPG’s 310 staff have already lost their jobs. The administrator is trying to sell remaining assets but neither it nor RPG’s former bosses have said what caused the collapse.
    However, Kane Thornton from the wind advocacy group the Clean Energy Council blames factors beyond the industry’s control.
    KANE THORNTON: Obviously we’ve had a prolonged debate about a carbon price in Australia, which has had some impact on the wind industry over the past years…
    Meanwhile, another company involved in wind turbine manufacture says another factor is at play in RPG’s demise. The general manager of Keppel Prince Engineering, Steve Garner, says the industry is being cruelled by cheap imports.
    STEVE GARNER: What this is doing is playing into the hands of the people that want to import cheap imports and would suggest that maybe Keppel Prince will be unable to meet the capacity that’s required in the coming years and that opens the door up for them…
    http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2012/s3607979.htm

    yet the MSM could find the following in one minute online, just as i did, and it’s all about Govt Policy (how long since the MSM has shown any interest in Policy?):

    14 Sept: Letter from RPG Group to Climate Change Authority
    Re: Submission to Climate Change Authority Review of the Renewable Energy Target Scheme
    Our key concerns
    Since entering the Wind Energy market, RPG has experienced significant “boom-bust” cycles in wind tower demand, which has been largely driven by changes to Government policy.
    After the formation of the Mandatory Renewable Energy Target scheme in 2000 we have seen changes to policy and regulations brought about by the Tambling Review in 2004, a change in Federal Government in 2007, various State solar hot water rebate schemes and the split of Large Generator Certificates from Small Generator Certificates in 2010, and now the risk of more change following the Climate Change Authority Review…
    http://climatechangeauthority.gov.au/sites/climatechangeauthority.gov.au/files/SUB-RET-2012-58.pdf


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    pat

    btw re Evan Thornley –

    the bit that got me was he “was a founding director of GetUp!”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Thornley

    maybe i’m the only one who didn’t know that.


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    handjive

    Check out this video via the excellent ‘notrickszone’ blog of P Gosselin.

    Watch how environmentalists destroy a rural area by blowing up the environment for windfarms to stop floods!

    Governor “Jim Jones” Shumlin Leads Vermont To Environmental Mass Suicide – “An Incredible Tragedy”

    Bookmark it folks.


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    pat

    i’m still voting informal, but surely RPG Group and how much taxpayer money they were given should be all over the news tonite. as i won’t be watching, i’ll make a prediction not a word about those monies will get an airing. has greg hunt searched out the figures, is he putting out press releases, organising media appearances?

    10 Oct: Reuters: Tom Hals/Dan Levine: Solyndra investor sought tax breaks as bankruptcy loomed-filing
    Eight months before solar panel maker Solyndra filed for bankruptcy, the company’s politically connected backer sought to hold on to lucrative tax breaks in the event the company went out of business, according to court documents.
    The new information was revealed on Wednesday by the U.S. Internal Revenue Service, which filed an official objection to Solyndra’s bankruptcy reorganization plan.
    The failure of Solyndra, the company President Obama held up as an example of government backing for renewable energy jobs, is a political weapon for Republicans ahead of the November elections as they highlight energy policies more favorable to fossil fuels…
    The company has auctioned virtually everything from inventory, office equipment and real estate to repay its debts, but may prove unable to pay any of its unsecured creditors.
    Solyndra’s bankruptcy plan could prove a further embarrassment to the administration if it is seen rewarding risk-driven venture capitalists ahead of unsecured creditors such as suppliers and laid-off staff.
    In its court filing on Wednesday, the IRS opposed Solyndra’s plan. If approved by creditors, a holding company would emerge from bankruptcy with no employees or business operations – but as much as $350 million in tax breaks that could be used by Solyndra’s investors, including Argonaut Ventures.
    Argonaut is the investment arm of a foundation tied to the Democratic fundraiser, Oklahoma billionaire George Kaiser. Most of the tax breaks would come in the form of Net Operating Losses (NOLs) which could be used to offset future taxable income…
    Meanwhile, under the bankruptcy plan Solyndra’s creditors would receive pennies on the dollar, the IRS said, adding that the principal purpose of the plan is “tax avoidance.”
    A Solyndra spokeswoman said the company would file responsive papers but otherwise declined to comment…
    As Argonaut, Solyndra and its tax professionals worked to determine the amount of tax breaks available to Solyndra, the company’s chief financial officer was advised to delay a particular transaction which would have reduced the available NOLs by $100 million, the court filing said.
    A representative for Kaiser could not immediately be reached.
    Solyndra has said in recent court filings it may not be able to repay any of the $528 million that the U.S. government had lent in 2009 to promote clean energy businesses…
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/11/solyndra-taxes-filing-idUSL1E8LAQFP20121011

    Kaiser is one of the top 100 wealthiest people in the world!


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    pat

    11 Oct: Australian: Ben Packham/AAP: Peter Slipper votes with Labor on carbon tax
    FORMER speaker Peter Slipper has sided with Labor on key amendments to its carbon tax, in the first major test of the ex-conservative’s voting intentions…
    But, in a vote on linking Australia’s carbon price to overseas emissions trading schemes, Mr Slipper, now an independent, sat with Labor.
    The changes passed 71 to 68.
    Mr Slipper also voted with Labor to reject a Coalition motion that Labor abolish the carbon tax…
    After a second reading vote, won by the government, Australian Greens MP Adam Bandt moved an amendment to have the Productivity Commission review the profits of the worst polluters, brown coal-fired power stations.
    Mr Bandt said the Greens signed off on the multi-party deal over carbon pricing in the belief that about 2000 megawatts of the dirtiest power would be closed.
    But these power stations were now not closing and there was a prospect they would actually make windfall profits…
    The government opposed the amendment, with Climate Change Minister Greg Combet saying existing arrangements would not be tampered with…
    The Greens amendment was doomed when the opposition also voted against it.
    But opposition climate change spokesman Greg Hunt used the debate to mock the policy regarding dirty power stations.
    Mr Hunt said it was a “unique achievement” to have two multi-billion dollar funds doing opposite things.
    There was a $2 billion fund to close the stations and a $5.5 billion fund to bail them out and keep them going.
    “The Greens and the ALP are squabbling over the deck chairs on the Titanic of electricity prices,” Mr Hunt said.
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/in-depth/peter-slipper-votes-with-labor-on-carbon-tax/story-fndckad0-1226493457502


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    pat

    these headlines are now up:

    and the headlines are:

    ABC: Swan, Gillard condemn ‘offensive’ Abbott joke
    (which a short time ago was just “gillard condemns ‘offensive’ abbott joke”)

    SMH: Offensive’ Abbott joke falls flat

    Herald Sun: ‘Offensive’ Abbott joke falls flat

    now, i take from the above that Abbott made an offensive joke!!!

    shame on the MSM, as always, especially as the country is going to the dogs and we should be discussing policy issues.


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      Angry

      MSN = LAME STREAM MEDIA

      It is no wonder that more and more Australians are sourcing their news from other sources !

      Australians have had a gutfull of their leftist lovefest.


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    pat

    8 Oct: Fox News: Perry Chiaramonte: Plant that got $150M in taxpayer money to make Volt batteries furloughs workers
    President Obama touted it in 2010 as evidence “manufacturing jobs are coming back to the United States,” but two years later, a Michigan hybrid battery plant built with $150 million in taxpayer funds is putting workers on furlough before a single battery has been produced…
    Workers at the Compact Power manufacturing facilities in Holland, Mich., run by LG Chem, have been placed on rotating furloughs, working only three weeks per month based on lack of demand for lithium-ion cells.
    The facility, which was opened in July 2010 with a groundbreaking attended by Obama, has yet to produce a single battery for the Chevrolet Volt, the troubled electric car from General Motors. The plant’s batteries also were intended to be used in Ford’s electric Focus…
    Production of the taxpayer-subsidized Volt has been plagued by work stoppages, and the effect has trickled down to companies and plants that build parts for it — including the batteries.
    “Considering the lack of demand for electric vehicles, despite billions of dollars from the Obama administration that were supposed to stimulate it, it’s not surprising what has happened with LG Chem. Just because a ton of money is poured into a product does not mean that people will buy it,” Paul Chesser, an associate fellow with the National Legal and Policy Center, told FoxNews.com.
    The 650,000-square-foot, $300 million facility was slated to produce 15,000 batteries per year, while creating hundreds of new jobs. But to date, only 200 workers are employed at the plant by by the South Korean company. Batteries for the Chevy Volts that have been produced have been made by an LG plant in South Korea…
    The factory was partly funded by a $150 million grant from the U.S. Department of Energy. LG also received sizeable tax breaks from the local government, saving nearly $50 million in property taxes over 15 years and another $2.5 million annually in business taxes…
    Boileau pointed out the workers who are on furloughs one week a month are eligible to collect unemployment for that week, and he said the company covers the contributions to their individual benefits during the period.
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/10/08/lg-plant-that-got-150m-to-make-volt-batteries-in-michigan-puts-workers-on/#ixzz28xdCYnct


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    Bite Back

    The bottom line here is that when I want to go somewhere I get in my gas powered car, turn the ignition key, the engine starts and I drive wherever I want to go.

    Need gas? Less than 7 or 8 minutes even with a bathroom break.

    Even at $5+ US/gallon I can drive around for a lot less than your electric will end up costing you ($48,000 for a car?). And I’m a happy camper! :-)

    PS:

    People are voting with their money at the gas pump and their tires on the road. And the winner is the conventional internal combustion engine. The only way this changes is when government uses force to change behavior (put kickback incentives in that category too). Then the unintended consequences always start. If you really want this stuff, go for it. But let’s not hear any complaints when it turns out to be a monster.

    In the words of a once popular protest song,

    When will they ever learn?

    PPS: AGW is a fraud.


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    [...] Nova reports on a new study showing that electric cars produce more CO2 that either petrol or diesel cars if that electricity [...]


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    Angry

    The Minister for Goldman Sachs

    Malcolm Turnbull the rain man who speaks with forked tongue.

    http://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com/2012/09/09/malcolm-turnbull-the-rain-man-who-speaks-with-forked-tongue/


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    Owen Morgan

    There’s a street in London called Bruton Street. It goes from New Bond Street to Berkeley Square. As you reach Berkeley Square, you find a Bentley car showroom on the corner. Turning left, for those who find Bentleys a bit too downmarket, you’ll see a Rolls-Royce showroom.

    If you keep going, maybe fifty yards, you’ll see charging points for electric cars. They aren’t the only ones I’ve seen in London, but they’re the only ones I’ve ever seen in use. I don’t think that the juxtaposition of the showrooms and the active charging points is any coincidence. Electric cars and Bentleys are both expensive toys; the difference is that a Bentley will get you to Scotland in one day (and back the next, if you don’t like the rain).

    I live forty miles from London, supposedly within range for an electric car, as long as I’m not hoping to get home again on the same day. I’ve never seen public charging points outside London. Am I supposed to drive to Berkeley Square, hook up my infernal-because-it’s-not-actually-a-horse-oh-no-that-would-be-exploiting-animals machine, just for the sake of charging it?


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    Richard Sieff

    It is necessary to read the whole article to gain the full picture of what the Norwegian study is stating. While, the study argues that electric vehicles may have more polluting production costs and in a coal dependent electricity grid would likely emit more CO2 than internal combustion engine vehicles, in nations or regions with cleaner electricity grids the reverse is true as the Norwegian study indicates in the quotation below:

    “Conversely, the combination of EVs with clean energy
    sources would potentially allow for drastic reductions of many transportation environmental impacts, especially in terms ofclimate change, air quality, and preservation of fossil fuels.” (Hawkins et al, 2012, p9).

    The lead author appears to have cherry picked information from the Norwegian study to suit his argument without providing balance, which could have been achieved either by cross referencing with another source or by simply showing the other side of the argument contained within the Norwegian study itself.


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    [...] than the equivalent petrol powered cars does. Not to mention that electric car factories are more toxic than normal car factories and that electric cars were deemed to be worse for the environment in a study by The [...]


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