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The Guardian: CO2 Apocalypse Now! Volcanoes, earthquakes, awaken subterranean giants

The Guardian “Climate change will shake the Earth” (parroted by the SMH)  is feeding the pagan masses who worship The God CO2. Which would be fine, except they pretend that it’s science when it’s the “hell” part of any religion. If you drive your SUV too far you, sinner, will bear the blame for earthquakes, volcanoes, and landslides. The mystery, we wonder, is why they forgot pestilence and plagues?!

Try this on. I’m quoting them: “So what – geologically speaking – can we look forward to if we continue to pump out greenhouse gases at the current hell-for-leather rate?”

  • “we could almost certainly say an eventual goodbye to the Greenland ice sheet, and probably that covering West Antarctica too”
  • “a 10-metre or more rise in sea levels.”
  •  ”these could trigger submarine landslides spawning tsunamis capable of threatening North Atlantic coastlines.”
  •  [More]” landslide activity would be inevitable in the Andes, Himalayas, European Alps…”
  • “acting to squeeze magma out of susceptible volcanoes that are primed and ready to blow.

Oh, Lordy. And what major study are these dire pronouncements made on? Why, someone called Bill McGuire has noticed a lot more volcanoes lately. That’s it.

He seems to have trouble keeping things in perspective.

The bottom line is that through our climate-changing activities we are loading the dice in favour of escalating geological havoc at a time when we can most do without it.

Sure, there has never been a worse time to deal with disasters: all those neolithic cave dwellers, and preindustrial people coped so much better with volcanoes and earthquakes than we do now.

Unless there is a dramatic and completely unexpected turnaround in the way in which the human race manages itself and the planet, then long-term prospects for our civilization look increasingly grim.

Grim? Here’s “Grim”

Among other things, Bill-the-vulcanologist seems to have overlooked the worst volcano in Human history, namely Toba, a supersized supervolcano of a magnitude 8 (and there is no “9″ in that scale). It was so big it blew up in Indonesia and left 3-6 metre (10-20 foot) deep ash as far away as India. For all that Mount Pinatubo was a decent volcano, Toba blew off 200 times as much. In what was truly a global disaster of civilizational proportions, genetic studies on homo sapiens show a bottleneck in our gene pool at about the same time. It’s theorized that we were almost wiped off the planet –  almost extincto-humanoidia.
Awkwardly Toba popped it’s top in about 70,000 BC. This is despite the likelihood that things were probably 5 degrees colder than it is now, it being an ice age and all. And this is after  Toba-the-sleeping-giant sat quietly through the Eemian warm phase when the world was around 2 – 4 degrees warmer than the present (circa 130,000 BC) which surely would have triggered all those “primed and ready to blow” volcanoes.  The dormant super volcano missed all those Eemian sea level rises and melting icecaps and exploded when the world (or at least Antarctica) was colder. Hey, but a lot can change in 50,000  cooling years. (Maybe it would have been a bigger explosion if humans had invented coal powered turbines 100 years beforehand? Who knows?)
Another magnitude 8 volcano blew up in 26,ooo (Lake Taupo’s Oruanui eruption) another not-so-warm period deep in an ice age. The largest volcano in modern times was Mount Tambora, an impressive magnitude 7. In the context of warming and CO2 emissions, though, the 1816 inferno date is just another data point that doesn’t fit the theory.  It’s only a sample size of 3 (see below for more) but if we are talking of civilizational threats, you’d think these rated a mention.
The current batch of magnitude 4′s in this the warmest supposed decade “ever” are not the stuff of global apocalypse.

The Smithsonian don’t think volcanoes are on the rise with CO2 either

They argue any increase is due to an increase in reporting. Previously, small remote volcanoes went un-noted. Plus reports of volcanoes rise after news coverage of a larger volcano and fall during other distractions, like during World Wars.
Spot the ugly rising trend in volcanoes with increased emissions:
Active volcanoes trend

Finally, we plot (above) the record since reasonably comprehensive reporting of global volcanism began in the 1960s. Note that the number of confirmed erupting volcanoes has leveled off between 50 and 70 per year through the past four decades, and a linear regression line through the data indicates that volcanism has been virtually constant

So much for that theory.
If you want an apocalypse, search for an ice-age.

 

Bill McGuire is professor of geophysical and climate hazards at University College London. Waking the Giant: How a Changing Climate Triggers Earthquakes, Tsunamis and Volcanoes is published by Oxford University Press.

UPDATE: “Bob-the-vulcanologist” has a nice ring, but that should read Bill, so I’ve fixed it. And yes, Eocene should read Eemian. Corrected. Apologies. Thanks to readers Peter Miller and Mac for the proof reading!  — Jo

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170 comments to The Guardian: CO2 Apocalypse Now! Volcanoes, earthquakes, awaken subterranean giants

  • #

    Some nutty professor writes an over egged book, the Guardian helps promote it.

    I love these, they help ‘average Jo six pack’ realise what a bunch of crock CAGW is.

    To quote a famous old classic story “please sir, may I have some more?”


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    IainT

    If you look at the recent trend, from 1997 to the end of the graph it’s clear that wee’re all doomed. DOOMED!!!


    No cherries were picked in the creation of this scenario.


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  • #

    Well, methinks this is all part of the Warmies’ current double-down-and-repeat campaign. It’s being grafted to the old and flagging scare-them-witless and the argument-from-authority strategies. Good of the Beeb too to be there when they need them. Let’s see how this floats…uh….nope, looked out the window and no, no crowds yet of screaming peons invoking the Great Al-Goracle. Better luck next time.

    Good work, Ms Nova, and congrats on the awards.

    PK, Toronto CDN


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    Peter Miller

    For those who do not know the Guardian newspaper, it is the UK daily publication of choice for intellectual lefties, with little or no potential for any career advancement.

    It publishes some truly appalling nonsense on ‘global warming’, but even by its low standards, this is very much over the top.

    My guess is that Bob, or is it Bill, Mcguire must have had some really juicy grant cut off, so in desperation and knowing that anything goes in the world of CAGW ‘science’, he has come up with this new and improved unfounded scary prediction, typical of the type so loved by the alarmist faithful.

    Please do not forget that geologists are the most sceptical group of individuals on the planet – one exception: all those employed by government, such as Bill or Bob, who are required to toe the official party line of “clear and obvious catastrophe imminent” on all matters to do with climate. Hey, perhaps that’s it – the CAGW thought police caught up with Bob, or Bill, and demanded strong evidence of his loyalty to the Cause.

    Of course, it could just be a spoof.


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    • #
      Bob Massey

      The thing is Peter most of the comments on this article agree with the writer. I really can’t believe the amount of BS that is attributed to such an inconsequential gas ..truly amazing !!


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    Jake

    About 4 months ago I wrote on Jo’s site as a comment that the next thing we would be hearing about would be the link between CO2 and earth quakes. See what happens.
    These people go through the sceptic sites to get new ideas for more theories as the old ones continue to be wrong.
    It is the scatter gun approach, fire enough bullets and surely, or hopefully, one will hit target.
    But then again, this person is on the right track for his money, this sort of stuff still sells in Europe at the moment. It is all in the timing, if he would have written this in say 2 years or so the market for his book would have been a lot smaller. Might as well make the money while he can.


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    • #
      John Brookes

      Don’t laugh Jake, but its been talked about for some time now. Not big earthquakes, but little ones in Greenland as the ice moves.


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      • #
        Byron

        John , It`s called Cryoseismic activity , big difference between that and tectonic rebound , Anyplace You`ve got that much ice you`ll have frost quakes and ice quakes regardless of the the direction temperature trends are heading in .


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        Jake

        Who says I am laughing, I actually find it very sad that supposedly, or is that presumably, well educated people end up writing this stuff. I can not believe that they are really serious about it. I know that education is not always an indication of intelligence, broad mindedness or that it gives someone the ability to objectively asses a situation/information, but this is desperation and someone with a degree felt compelled to put it all together in a book and make a name for himself and probably hopes to make a buck as well. Sad, very sad.

        Tell me John, how long does the world have to wait for even one of the predictions made in the 90′s to come true? Specially since many of them were made with certainty and that we would start to see the effects of our bad habits within 20 years, which is now.

        There is a difference between humanity changing habits because of need (like oil getting too expensive, harder to get and not likely to be in indefinite supply, partly due to certain people being opposed to exploration in the more challenging regions of our planet) and changing habits because of a bunch of lies about the effects of our habits.


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      • #
        incoherent rambler

        now I laugh


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    • #
      davidR

      McGuire’s original paper was written in 2006. He refers to periods of rapid climate change over geological time frames not just the past 50 years and provides abundant evidence for exceptional increases in major geological events as the earth warms. As a scientist I doubt he’d be looking at Jonova for inspiration,


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  • #
    Ally E.

    We know they’re over the top. When do you suppose they’re going to realize it? One promised disaster after another, probably to take our attention away from the other promised disasters that haven’t happened yet, just isn’t cutting it anymore. The regular news reader has got to be scratching his/her head by now.


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    • #
      Bob Massey

      Yes but when we finally arrive at the time line and nothing catastrophic has occurred they move the goal posts.. This religion will be bigger than all of them put together. astonishing stuff !!


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    Augustine O'Brien

    This is off topic but Steve M. at Climate Audit said that there are 14,000 abandoned wind turbines on the USA. Typing that into a search has found a lot of sites covering this topic the first of which is noted below.

    Guess this comes under the heading of
    “for what it’s worth” but it could put a kink in your green PM’s nose.

    http://toryaardvark.com/2011/11/17/14000-abandoned-wind-turbines-in-the-usa/


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      Tony Hansen

      Steve is only reporting what Mike Kelly wrote


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      Bob Massey

      I don’t think anything could put a kink in our PM’s armour except 1 election that’s all that will be needed and she will be gone the only remnants will be her extinct Solar Panels and Windfarms but of course this is for the environment. How could any Greenie be subverted by this bunkum. I hate them, I think they are a blight on the Country and should be outlawed under EPA regulations which I am sure exist for such structures.

      This generation is going to create some great talking and laughing points in the years to come.


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  • #
    Fred Allen

    Gotta give it to him. The bookstores are in desparate need of a written product to fill demand where the Harry Potter series left off in the Science Fiction and Fantasy sections.


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  • #
    Dude

    http://youtu.be/FIcAjXjKsyQ

    Here is the answer. Climate change is now the new dark energy.


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    Rereke Whakaaro

    The Guardian is often typified as “The Gruniad”. For two reasons.

    1) Their editorial standard of content and proofreading is abysmal, and
    2) They once had the habit of trying to sue anybody who pointed out what a biased load of future kitty litter it was.

    Nobody in Britain will ever admit to buying it, except as a cheap form of kitty litter.


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      Graeme No.3

      I think “The Grauniad” from the letters in their name, and for the reasons you mention. Supposedly coined by Christopher Booker, who doesn’t contribute to the Guardian (except to stir up Monbiot).

      The paper isn’t doing very well financially.


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      • #

        The paper [The Guardian] isn’t doing very well financially.

        I don’t know of any major “newspapers-of-record” in the industrialized nations that’re doing at all well financially.

        First, the key revenue producer for almost all such periodicals is the purchase of advertisements, and commercial interests keep finding more effectively directed ways to attract the attention of their potential customers.

        Second, the newspapers have to sustain their own sales as well as attracting eyeballs for their advertisers, and losing touch with their readers’ real preferences and interests effectively guarantees fatal loss of circulation.

        Especially in our recent confrontation with the Mombasa Messiah, it’s become more emphatically undeniable that Americans tend to be predominantly conservative in their political outlook, and the fixedly “Liberal” journalists of the lamestream media simply can’t get their sclerotic little minds wrapped ’round the fact that their yelping hooraw for increasingly invasive government thuggery is persuading more and more us to quit them in disgust.

        Same kind of thing’s happening in Britain and Australia, no?


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  • #
    Afizzyfist

    Keep these guys they are skeptics best friend and are helping to destroy AGW. Viva Gleick Viva Jones Viva Mann and this guy hahahah


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  • #

    Agree with Pete at #2 – the Guardian is home of George Monbiot – enough said!

    The climate can shape the environment around us – e.g. sea and wind erosion, but equally geology and the workings of our planet can shape the environment around us as well, which will create weather effects, and all without any man made input! Any O-level geology student (I’m showing my age here) knows that.


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    Rereke Whakaaro

    Another magnitude 8 volcano blew up in 26,ooo (Lake Taupo’s Oruanui eruption) [in New Zealand]

    That would have been caused by the trout.

    Best trout fishing in the southern hemisphere in Taupo, but the fish do get a little stroppy at times, and if they get organised …. Boom!


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      Madjak

      Don’t you mean methane emissions from trout flatulence?


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        Rereke Whakaaro

        Don’t you mean methane emissions from trout flatulence?

        Nah, that just gives them jet propulsion.

        No, they dig around on the bottom, looking for the weak points in the crust, and …. Boom!

        That is why the blighters are so hard to catch with fly fishing – they are all busy digging holes in the bottom of the lake. It stands to reason, it they ain’t taking my fly, they must be doing something else.


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    Madjak

    This one has as much validity as increased C02 will attract aliens. Oh, wait, they’ve been excreting that as well, haven’t they!

    They’ll be blaming the larger volcanoes on dinosoar methane emissions next.

    Dinosoars eating beans = increased volcanism. Can I get a research grant for that? Hey, at least your university will get some publicity in the guardian!


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    • #

      Dinosoars eating beans = increased volcanism. Can I get a research grant for that?

      Sorry, no flowering plant life during the flourishing of the dinosauria, therefore no legumes.

      But, hey, don’t despair. Just do what las warmistas do, and lie in your grant application.


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  • #
    Sonny

    This one is worth printing out and producing as evidence later.


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  • #
    DougS

    I’d be very surprised if the Guardian has come out with an unsubstantiated claim.

    They’re normally a bastion of rigorous science and wouldn’t dream of printing anything that wasn’t 100% kosher.

    Why only last week I was having a swift lager with my old pal George Monbiot and he told me that they’ve won awards for first class scientific reporting from top rate organisations like Green Peas, Wild Water World Fund and the University of East somewhere or other.

    I think Jo must have it wrong!

    P.S. George says that Bill McGuire forgot to mention that AGW also causes flatulence.


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  • #
    Mark D.

    Of COURSE there are going to be more volcanoes, floods, droughts, earthquakes, sea monsters, things under the bed, murders, mayhems, cancers, tornadoes, typhoons, Biblical Floods, Atheist Droughts, (both much worse than the ones listed first), pandemics, hangnails, divorces!

    That is HOW Lady Gaia shakes us little co2 breathing fleas off from her pristine back.

    Sarc/ off

    Now for real do we think that the rising co2 MIGHT be caused by internal grumblings from within?


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      Rereke Whakaaro

      … do we think that the rising co2 MIGHT be caused by internal grumblings from within?

      With all of the usual caveats from my Geologist colleague, it is entirely possible that the observed rise in CO2 could come one of two undersea-floor sources (or both) . It can come from the decay of methane, close to the undersea-floor surface or, it can come from volcanic activity within the mantle. Both these sources manifest themselves as vents.

      Guess what, apparently the discharge of gasses are cyclic, and are dependent on changes in the gravitational flux with the sun and other planets, whodah thunk?


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      • #
        Bob Massey

        Rereke we have to be careful here mate you could be saying that the Earth’s CO2 has the ability to affect planets, stars and the Universe next.. Ssssh don’t let the Warmist’s get a wiff of this :)


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  • #
    janama

    Senior Sky News weatherman on Alan Jones programme this morning – “Tim Flannery is not qualified to comment on climate” :)


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      MargaretO

      Well, that is true. The Flim Flam man does not have any degree in climatology subjects. He obtained a degree in English!! I cannot figure how he ended up in paleoclimatology…. either way, he is not qualified to speak about the weather… he has no clue at all….

      As for the current conditions, around this time in 1978 we had exactly the same conditions…. and the Warragamba dam opened the floodgates leading to massive flooding of the Nepean-Hawkesbury river system, and especially flooding around the Windsor-Richmond district. Several people lost their lives during those floods.


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  • #
    pat

    well, CAGW does cause higher electricity prices. love how MSM never mentions CAGW has already cost us plenty because of the renewable energy obligations they forced on the power companies, not to mention via the exorbitant prices being paid for solar entering the grid. Maher isn’t mentioning any of that either – why not? is the Coalition mentioning it? haven’t heard them say a word:

    29 Feb: Australian: Sid Maher: Power firms face $4bn carbon slug
    ELECTRICITY generators have warned that they face a cashflow crunch of hundreds of millions of dollars to buy carbon tax permits as the latest greenhouse gas emissions figures suggest almost $4 billion of the $7.7bn to be raised in the first year of the policy will come from power companies.
    Data from the Climate Change Department yesterday shows the power generation sector accounted for about 170 million tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions in the 2010-11 financial year, which could mean a carbon tax bill of $3.9bn if repeated next year…
    The companies told The Australian yesterday they would try to recoup the cost through higher electricity prices, but because prices are set by bids in the national electricity market, they are uncertain how much they will be able to recover…

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/climate/power-firms-face-4bn-carbon-slug/story-e6frg6xf-1226284526281


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    DougS

    If you think Bill McGuire has lost it, have a look over at WUWT for a piece on the dopiest headline ever, viz.

    “GLOBAL WARMING IS MAKING THE WORLD COLDER” (‘Adelaide Now’)

    Should make the Guardian by tomorrow!


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      Jazza

      When has there been before a scientific hypothesis that not only produces what is hypothesised but also it s direct opposite and anything else even wildly within the ambit of the “title”?????
      Soemthing she is rotten in the state of Climate science


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      mullumhillbilly

      Bill McGuire is too tame, the Earth is going to explode if we dont stop burning coal immediately. Now that’s what I call an apocalypse ! Bill’s contributions will sit with other worthy company on the warmlist.


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    Howie

    I call it the dumbing down of science.


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    pat

    28 Feb: Bishop Hill:
    In The News
    The Guardian reports on the vast risk-free profits made by wealthy titled landowners as a result of the windfarm revolution that the Guardian itself has done so much to bring about through its incessant harping on about the dangers of climate change….

    Mike Post comments:

    - According to the Guardian story, there are currently 4.5 GW of wind power installed in the UK. From the screenshot that I took of the neta website at 12.55 on the freezing cold 6 February 2012, wind power over the UK had provided a mere 45 MW over the half hour from 12.00 to 12.30. This electricity, produced by ALL the wind generators in the UK was sufficient to power just 15,000 3KW kettles. It was just 1% of the reported total UK installed wind capacity and 0.1% of the country’s requirement!
    \”Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad\”
    It is also noteworthy that the environmental editor makes the fundamental error of confusing power with energy -

    Mike Post comments again:

    - It is actually worse than I thought! The Guardian’s figure of 4.5 gigawatts of installed wind power capacity did not include off-shore. The total capacity including off-shore (according to Wikipedia) is 5.9 gigawatts. So at midday on 6 February the UK’s wind power stations were producing 0.763% of total installed wind capacity. -

    Pat: WE NEED TO DEMAND AN ELECTION IN AUSTRALIA. WE NEED TO DEMAND THE COALITION COMES CLEAN IMMEDIATELY ABOUT CAGW BEING A TOTAL SCAM, BEFORE OUR ECONOMY TANKS. NO EXCUSES.


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  • #
    pat

    28 Feb: Bishop Hill:
    In The News
    The Guardian reports on the vast risk-free profits made by wealthy titled landowners as a result of the windfarm revolution that the Guardian itself has done so much to bring about through its incessant harping on about the dangers of climate change….

    Mike Post comments:

    - According to the Guardian story, there are currently 4.5 GW of wind power installed in the UK. From the screenshot that I took of the neta website at 12.55 on the freezing cold 6 February 2012, wind power over the UK had provided a mere 45 MW over the half hour from 12.00 to 12.30. This electricity, produced by ALL the wind generators in the UK was sufficient to power just 15,000 3KW kettles. It was just 1% of the reported total UK installed wind capacity and 0.1% of the country’s requirement!
    \”Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad\”
    It is also noteworthy that the environmental editor makes the fundamental error of confusing power with energy -

    Mike Post comments again:

    - It is actually worse than I thought! The Guardian’s figure of 4.5 gigawatts of installed wind power capacity did not include off-shore. The total capacity including off-shore (according to Wikipedia) is 5.9 gigawatts. So at midday on 6 February the UK’s wind power stations were producing 0.763% of total installed wind capacity. -
    http://www.bishop-hill.net/blog/2012/2/28/in-the-news-today.html

    Pat: WE NEED TO DEMAND AN ELECTION IN AUSTRALIA. WE NEED TO DEMAND THE COALITION COMES CLEAN IMMEDIATELY ABOUT CAGW BEING A TOTAL SCAM, BEFORE OUR ECONOMY TANKS. NO EXCUSES.


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  • #
    Bob Malloy

    Jo, surely you joke, you talk about 70,000BC & 50,000BC, we all know according to Mann, Hansen and co, climate started in 1950.


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      Rereke Whakaaro

      Bob,

      What objective proof do you have that the world existed before you were born? It could all be a figment of your imagination.

      But one thing we know for sure is that Mann, Hansen, et al, all have good imaginations.


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        Bob Malloy

        What objective proof do you have that the world existed before you were born? It could all be a figment of your imagination.

        Actually I have often thought we are all only characters in a simms game, figments in the imagination of someone or something unknown.

        Then again I am sitting here restrained in a strait jacket, thumping the keyboard with my nose.


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        agwnonsense

        Please everyone we have to get this right,WE are not “figments” we are “fragments” of some ones “delusion” that 4.5 billion years of climate history doesn’t exist.or something


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  • #
    pat

    DougS -
    Courier Mail (News Ltd as is the Adelaide Advertiser) also had that headline on its home page yesterday, but the headline had changed when u clicked on the link.

    u can still find many links with that headline, including the one below, which means this was the original News Ltd headline for all their publications. if u click on the link below now, u will get the changed headline “Melting Arctic causes snowier winters in Europe, the US”.

    whose decision was it to change it?

    Global warming is making the world colder
    from NEWS.com.au | The World on Feb.28, 2012, under News, World
    http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/newscomauworldnewsndm/~3/yI-l0dqOHRg/story-e6frfkyi-1226283672088

    http://www.news-australia.com/news/global-warming-is-making-the-world-colder-201202281026.html


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    Popeye

    Doug,

    Have been over searching for the article you refer to at it’s source (Adelaide Now – part of the Advertiser/Sunday Mail group)

    I couldn’t find it BUT when I did a search came up with this page and when the link is followed leads to a completely different story (albeit still AGW scaremongering).

    Wonder why that might be????

    Can anyone else find the original???

    Thanks & cheers,


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  • #
    Popeye

    My post at 27 was MEANT to be a reply to DougS at comment 21

    Cheers,


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    Bob of Castlemaine

    Bob and Bill? No, sounds to me much more like a story from that well known BBC children’s show Bill and Ben Flower Pot Men


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    • #
      MargaretO

      weed, weed…. :)

      Funny, I had not completely read your comment and I started thinking along the same lines… :)


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      • #
        Dave

        Great Show!
        Here’s a link to a pic of Bill & Ben.

        Weed was the 1st warmist!
        Bill: Weed – now eat more CO2 or we’ll all burn up!
        Ben: Weed – now eat more CO2 or we’ll all burn up!
        Weed: Blup, Blup, Blop, – if you really loved me you wouldn’t have burnt all that wood to make your clothes!

        Bill & Ben were thoughtful chaps – and stopped making CO2 – even holding their exhalations!

        Weed nearly died – I can’t breath I need CO2!
        Bill and Ben started burning heaps of stuff – Weed has thrived ever since!


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    Streetcred

    Bill McGuire apparently comes with previous form (ref Piers Corbyn)… if ever there was a case for Bill McGuire to be relieved of his academic position and sent for psychiatric analysis, it is now. This man is positively a danger to Society !


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    theRealUniverse

    Sure, there has never been a worse time to deal with disasters: all those neolithic cave dwellers, and preindustrial people coped so much better with volcanoes and earthquakes than we do now.

    Jo..Pompei comes to mind…..

    mm.. CO2 trigger volcanoes?..volcanoes give out large quantities of..CO2 (and other gasses)..mm.

    Another last ditch to get the populace terrified by the warmists on their death beds.


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  • #

    It is always looking at these numbers to see how alarming things could be.
    The article says post ice age the sea levels rose by 130 metres. The “worst case” scenarios are around 6m, which would take centuries. So even if the worst case took place (5 degrees of warming in a century), the resulting sea level rise would be much less than the peak rates post ice-age, and the rising land mass would be much less marked. Even then the 6m metres of rise isn’t going to happen as temperature rises are not happening, and sea level rises due to ice melt are at most 15cm per century.

    The conclusion – the Guardian is overly alarmist. Why is that? Because they do not allow anything but extremist views. They even promote the idea that it is ethical to lie and exaggerate in the name of science. This is gross exaggeration. But that is OK, because it is in the interests of science. What is the truth without the exaggeration? (Follows with something about what real scientists believe and what the models say, and some comment about being you in the pay of the fossil fuel industry & a rapid change of subject.)


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      John Brookes

      The worst case scenario is much more than 6m.


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        Robert

        We can’t help it that you along with the climate “scientists” are bad at math. But the evidence keeps indicating that simple things like addition escape the majority of you. So where is the source for your 6m? Some computer model written by a programmer paid to write code that produces the desired results? Or was it a programmer that couldn’t get work in the the video game or software industry because, well, their code sucks?


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    The Guardian is often typified as “The Gruniad”
    As I recall it was “Grauniad” – they actually managed to scramble the banner letters on the front page. Must be worth something if you’ve still got one.
    Where is “Private Eye” when you need it? They used to have a column called “Pseud’s Corner”. Plenty of material for something like that these days.
    I’m a bit relieved that the alarmists are moving on to “CO2 causes volcanoes and earthquakes”. I was alarmed when they suddenly discovered it was causing severe weather, because that has been part of my work for many years, encouraging people to go that little bit extra floor height, few more bolts, plates, rods in the frame, get a better edge on what the weather can, and from time to time, WILL hand out.
    I wonder who’s expertise they are going to try and hijack next?


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    I’m just waiting for them to claim that an increase in Co2 will result in our orbit around the Sun being destabilized…

    Oh and don’t talk to me about the Guardian, about the only really guarantee factual thing with it is the price…


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    Winston

    Or, perhaps the modern obesity epidemic is responsible for increased vulcanism and tectonic plate movement because the disproportionate weight distribution of people in developed countries, predominantly in the northern hemisphere,with respect to equatorial and southern hemisphere populations, which has obviously altered the crust’s “delicate balance”, and awakened Gaia’s angry “spirit”.

    It’s also possible that that CO2 increasing atmospheric and surface temperature could alter its orbit relative to the sun, especially through secondary runaway increase in atmospheric Helium which would cause the Earth to “float” above it’s normal orbital plane!

    Where are Blimey and MattB and JB? Surely, they would like to “weigh in” on these new alarmist theories? Remember you heard it here first!

    Very, Very bad man! Always Mocking, Mocking, Mocking! Climate science is the new Animism, obviously. We’ve come so far since the stone age, haven’t we.


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    Just what is it with people who have the surname McGuire?

    In the mid 60′s everyone wanted to be Dylan, and everybody recorded Dylan songs, or recorded songs like Dylan.

    Including this one from Barry McGuire.

    The Eve Of Destruction

    Just change the the theme from War to CAGW and, well, you get the idea.

    Tony.


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    Roy Hogue

    The consensus says of course CO2 causes volcanoes and earthquakes. Something has to cause them. Do we know for sure that CO2 isn’t the culprit? Of course we don… Damn, there’s that guy with the net again. Gotta run… Why is he always chasing me? Hel-l-l-l-p…


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    Bob Malloy

    Damb,Damb, and double damb, that bloody earth hours coming around again.

    Someone please tighten the straps on my strait jacket, tie me to my bed before I really hurt myself banging my head on the floor, the padding’s getting too thin in a couple of places.


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    Ross James

    Mass Extinction Evidence from past Global Warming.

    This is from a GEOLOGY Paper. Read on…………….

    I propose to only post here on this web site from now on findings of scientists only revelatory to the topic at hand.

    I am not here to field Ad Hom argumentation with anyone. I am not here to be converted to Luke Warmer.

    Let the science just speak for itself.

    “High-resolution oxygen isotope records document the timing and magnitude of global warming across the Permian-Triassic (P-Tr) boundary.

    Oxygen isotope ratios measured on phosphate-bound oxygen in conodont apatite from the Meishan and Shangsi sections (South China) decrease by 2‰ in the latest Permian, translating into low-latitude surface water warming of 8 °C. The oxygen isotope shift coincides with the negative shift in carbon isotope ratios of carbonates, suggesting that the addition of isotopically light carbon to the ocean-atmosphere system by Siberian Traps volcanism and related processes resulted in higher greenhouse gas levels and global warming.

    The major temperature rise started immediately before the main extinction phase, with maximum and harmful temperatures documented in the latest Permian (Meishan: bed 27). The coincidence of climate warming and the main pulse of extinction suggest that global warming was one of the causes of the collapse of the marine and terrestrial ecosystems. In addition, very warm climate conditions in the Early Triassic may have played a major role in the delayed recovery in the aftermath of the Permian-Triassic crisis.”

    Citation: Michael M. Joachimski, Xulong Lai, Shuzhong Shen, Haishui Jiang, Genming Luo, Bo Chen, Jun Chen and Yadong Sun, Geology, v. 40 no. 3 p. 195-198, doi: 10.1130/G32707.1.

    http://geology.gsapubs.org/content/40/3/195.abstract

    Ross J.


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      Ross,

      this is just wonderful news, so, er, thanks for that.

      Say, Atmospheric CO2 content at the juncture of the Permian and Triassic periods was, umm, 2000PPM, and read again, two thousand parts per million.

      That’s 250 million years ago.

      The, um average mean temperature at that Permian Triassic juncture was, umm, let me check now, ah, got it, 26C, and then it dropped slightly to 25C.

      I was wondering how soon it will be before explorers unearth those coal fired power plants they had back then.

      Gee, I wonder why CO2 levels were that high way back then.

      Makes you think, doesn’t it?

      Say, what level is that CO2 content now?

      392PPM.

      So Ross, how soon before we come extinct then, I’d like to update my life insurance.

      Tony.

      PS. Say, no ad homs in that one!


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      • #

        Say, umm, isn’t that CO2 rise coming after the temperature rise there in that Permian area.

        Hmm!

        That’s odd.

        Tony.


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        Byron

        Beat Me to it , I`d only got as far as

        “sooo just under 2 million square kilometres pyroclastics , 3 million cu Km of basalt lavas ,Mt Pinatubo with it`s 12 cu km of lava was associated with a 0.5 degree drop in global temps the year after it erupted and the siberian traps are thought to be one of the heaviest ash /lava ratios going ,and the end of the Permian saw the biggest ever drop in sea level occurred.Holser and Magaritz in 1987 proposed that such a marine regression could only be caused by large scale glaciation….”

        I reckon all that might have had a little something to do with the mass extinction rather than the CO2 level


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          crakar24

          Bryon,

          In all of the ramblings of Ross (possible ad hom please delete as you see fit) is there any connection to increasing CO2 levels and earthquakes/volcanos? Or is this just another incoherent comment?


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            Byron

            Sorry for the confusion generated by My misplaced posting crakar , but the “You beat me to it” was refering to Tony beating Me to the punch ,

            I was about to point out to Ross that with a fair sized chunk of the planet blowing up and the following mess , You don`t have to look any further for the cause of a mass extinction .

            Saying “Global Warming did it ” is like saying a guy who gets run over by a train died from a heart attack and fatty foods can cause that so poor diet killed him .

            ( And no , He didn`t establish a link to CO2 and earthquakes )


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        MaxL

        Good thing our Permian/Triassic ancestors weren’t holidaying in the area then, otherwise we’d be blamed for that too.
        Oh, hang on, maybe that’s what Ross was implying.
        Umm, when did the anthropogenic bit start, and why do warmists pounce on anything which contains the words “Global Warming” and forget about the anthropogenic part of their argument?


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        Ross James

        Tony,

        Even though this is on earlier research records there are well researched papers that came out DISPUTING some those ppm ratings in the Permian and Triassic periods.

        Readings of the very ANCIENT geological RECORD VARY FROM <100PPM TO 4000PPM!

        http://books.google.com.au/books?id=D-FidWYj020C&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=triassic+2000+ppm&source=bl&ots=DwiWLqq5PJ&sig=VIejFJ0vfAG8DdZ1XeRMXZHRNs8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=h7hNT_ztIuW1iQfH07lW&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=triassic%202000%20ppm&f=false

        The other factor not well known to climate skeptics inclusive of a handful contrariwise geologists is that the sun was much more dimmer in this period according astrophysics studies of this time period of the suns state.

        Orbital factors also should be a consideration.

        Some Intelligent Creationists assert that if the levels were not higher (2000ppm +) then a run away snowball effect would have plunged the earth into a irretrievable ice planet. We talking of time periods nowhere near the stability of ppm levels that endured in earth's millions of years history when mature life of forms emerged like today – modern history.

        This both highlights CO2 as being our best friend but also a latent enemy. Skeptics think playing experimental games without ever heeding anything a scientist says that consist of warnings is fair play. It's not IMHO.

        Ross J.


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          Right,

          got that! Thanks Ross.

          So, we look around until we find the, er, currently approved modelling for the er, currently acceptable CO2 concentrations for the period in question, and then say that all those other documents are, umm, DISPUTED (mustn’t forget to capitalise that one).

          So Ross, let me introduce you to Petard, and let’s see what we can hoist here, shall we.

          Can you not see the utter incongruity of what you say about this disputed sorry DISPUTED document I linked to.

          That was modelling, eh, and umm, correct me if I’m wrong, but I was wondering why some modeling is, er OK, and other modelling is DISPUTED.

          Tony.

          PS Still no ad homs there I think!


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            Look I’m so sorry guys.

            When I first started out four years ago, this was so serious.

            I never thought it could be so much fun!

            Tony.

            PS Sorry Mods. I couldn’t help it.


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            Ross James

            Tony,

            Do I hear you say models? Where on earth do think you think mildests like Dr Roy Spencer get their estimates from?

            Paleoclimatology is different from projections. It is based on limited access to often very RARE proxies which so indicate some so sort of chemical calculated imbalance in our distant past.

            If you had read the specific paragraph you would know the proxies used.

            You maybe so to speak having fun. But rest assured I’ve seen all the skeptical arguments. Not one in my books stand up to scrutiny – with one exception: Climate Sensitivity and by how much we will enter a danger period. Whether it is minor annoyance or major dislocation depends on how well we adjust and adapt our ageing energy technologies to counter increasing to 800ppm over the next century.

            Ross J.


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            Ross,

            how right you are to say this:

            …depends on how well we adjust and adapt our ageing energy technologies…

            Replace existing aging coal fired power plants with new technology coal fired plants.

            Read this very carefully.

            Tony.


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            brc

            Ross – can you drop it with this ‘age old technology’ crap?

            I’ve noticed that any time a socialist fool wants to change something for the worse, they always invoke the ‘outdated’ and ‘old technology’ meme.

            Peter Beattie used it to justify merging local councils – when – if you followed his logic, the QLD Border should also be reallocated and merged with NSW, given that the state borders are older than the council borders.

            Here you go, invoking the ‘old technology’ argument.

            Well, let me just bust that for you : a technology should be judged on it’s utility and productivity, not on it’s age.

            Got any knives in your house? Take a stab at how old that technology is.

            Same goes for energy sources and technologies. Are they still useful and productive compared to the alternatives? If yes, then no burning need to change.

            The reason open fireplaces have been replaced by gas heaters is because gas is (a) more useful and (b) more productive. It wasn’t because an open fire was old. It was because there was a better alternative.

            I’m just getting so tired of people who walk around with a blinkered ‘but this is how the world ought to be’ naive view of things suggesting that everything should be junked and changed because, well, just because it’s OLD.

            Justifying change on the basis of age is just another way of saying you have no justification for change.


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          crakar24

          Ross,

          This is all well and good and a topic that we could discuss at length however the question here is “is there a link between increasing CO2 levels and an increase in volcanos and/or earthquakes. Despite all your offerings so far you have (IMHO) failed to provide that link.

          Can you provide a link between the said phenomena?

          Regards

          Crakar24


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        MargaretO

        it must have been the emissions from the dinosaurs that caused the CO2 Tony!! /sarc


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      crakar24

      Ross,

      I am surprised you did not throw in a link about the Mayan countdown clock and the end of the world (is this an ad hom Mods? If so please delete).

      I was once told during WWII the British did not win a battle but they won the war however the sceptics are winnings the battles but will not win the war. The explanation for this is simple whilst we spend all our time disproving the usual gibberish like this the movers and shakers behind the scenes continue on peicing together their one world government plans.

      In some ways they are right i suppose but i feel that when they have to come up with crap like this then their true colors are starting to shine through and most (i say most) people know what is actually going on. People like Ross and JB dont have a clue so they are lost, cut them loose and move on and focus on the souls that can be saved.

      I would like to ask Ross to explain how a well mixed gas (thats one that is evenly spread all over the globe) will not cause global warming but instead cause climate change/disruption/shift which has not lead to an increase in cyclones etc but will now lead to an increase in earthquakes and volcanos? However he will avoid/dodge this request as it will be percieved as an ad hom attack.


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      Peter Miller

      An inconvenient fact from this time was the volcanic eruptions from the Siberian Traps was on a scale thankfully never seen again. The air was full of poisonous fumes and ash and this was a process which went on for hundreds of thousands of years, so not surprisingly life was stressed and all too often was unable to adapt. Most life lives in or near water and most life – except for some weird bacteria – prefers not to live in/near an environment of dilute sulphuric acid and/or high in hydrogen sulphide gas.

      This was a time when carbon dioxide levels soared due to extreme vulcanism and the burning of unimaginable amounts of coal. To add to this, all the continents had come together in one super continent called Pangea, a factor which added to the extremes of climate. Wikipedia is surprisingly good on this event.

      http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=pangea%20permian%20triassic&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPermian%25E2%2580%2593Triassic_extinction_event&ei=otxNT9bqLOLX0QW7rImeBQ&usg=AFQjCNE4IVkxzmBwHQe3bMqaWPkbZMJ_2Q&cad=rja

      Perhaps it should be noted that IPCC temperature increase forecasts are not far off what occurred during the Permian/Triassic extinction event. However, we are unlikely to approach anything like the 2,000ppm CO2 (~392ppm today) witnessed at that time, plus a level of methane probably hundreds of times that experienced today. Also, we do not have a Pangea like super-continent.


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      Mark Hladik

      Ross,

      Like most CAGW alarmists, you love to post half the story.

      Here’s the ‘rest of the story’:

      University of Leicester (Liecester?) has published several papers by Saunders and Reichow (and others) with some very succinct radiometric dates for the Siberian Traps.

      As I have shown in a paper I have requested Jo and mods to review for possible posting, about 89% of the radiometric ages POST-date the terminal Permian extinction event, now accepted as 252.3 ma.

      As others have pointed out, even small basaltic/andesitic volcanic events (e.g., Pinatubo) tend to cause modest cooling. Something on the order of the Siberan LIP had a higher probability of causing cooling, as opposed to warming. The accepted paleotemperature proxies (e.g., Geological Time Scale 2004, and Veizer) show little, if any significant temperature change across the boundary.

      You might also realize that there was a significant extinction (greater than the K/T event) going on for the ten million years PRIOR to the P/Tr event; the boundary event itself was just the culmination of a process which had been going on for quite some time.

      And as far as the horrific English, “… … that the sun was much more dimmer in this period … …”, I guess I’ll just have to leave that with this: the solar intensity was approximately 3% lower than today, at the beginning of the Cambrian, based on standard astrophysical analysis of stellar evolution. By Permin time, the difference between then and now would have only been between 2% and 1%.

      And, of course you DO know that Rodinia was covered in ice, at a time when the concentration of carbon dioxide in the Earth’s atmosphere was approximately 13%, right?

      Regards to all, especially Ross’ English teachers,

      Mark H.


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    Well this my first post here. Found you via WUWT due to Gleick’s professional suicide. Pretty spiffy.

    Now to this utter rubbish that is being pushed as ‘science.’ The AGW crowd are starting to remind me of the Mayan priestly caste when the drought started. Getting very desperate as their world collapses. Expect more demands of sacrifices to satiate their deity’s appetite.


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    MattB

    To be fair, major geological catastrophe would certainly cause me a bit of inconvenience. So I have to agree with the author that for me personally it is the time I could most do without it.


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    Alexander K

    Being serious for a moment, I always feel slightly nervous of the power of nature any time I break a journey at Taupo and stand on the edge of the lake, think about the size of the explosion that caused it, then admire the view of the distant volcanoes across the enormous stretch of water.
    On a recent visit to the Lake District in the UK, I looked at the tiny lakes and my mental image of Lake Taupo made me smile at the comparison.


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    Mac

    Jo,
    Do you mean the Eemian circa 130,000 years ago, rather than the Eocene which was 55 million years ago?


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    bananabender

    McGuire has a PhD in Geology from Luton College of Higher Education, now the University of Bedfordshire, UK.[1] He began lecturing in Geology at the West London Institute of Higher Education in the 1980s, former home of well known TV geologist Iain Stewart. He was then appointed Reader at Cheltenham & Gloucester College of Higher Education (now the University of Gloucestershire), and made it into the university sector in the 1990s when he was appointed Professor of Geohazards and Director of the Aon Benfield UCL Hazard Research Centre at University College London.[2] An interim director is currently (2011) running the Centre.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_McGuire_(volcanologist)

    Tech college graduate becomes climate expert – quelle surprise!


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      manalive

      The Luton College of Higher Education?
      I’m not a doctor of anything but I know a couple of PhDs from similar sounding institutions whose only assets seem to be amicability and persistence. There’s a joke that all you have to do in those institutions of “higher education” to earn a doctorate is stick your head around the door of the staff tearoom.


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    Bob Massey

    Hey Ross, Tony is right and this confirms what us skeptics have been saying for years now that CO2 is increased after a rise in temperature.

    Here’s another interesting question. What caused the temperature increase?


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      Markus Fitzhenry

      What caused the temperature increase?

      A. Increase in the Suns insolation and a increase in mass of atmosphere that causes additionl surface pressure.

      What caused the temperature decrease after additional CO2 from warming?

      A. CO2.


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    Louis Hissink

    All seems like millenarianism to me, the fear of impending doom which the credulus and gullible keep repeating every so often. Happens when you deny historym which all lefties do unthinkingly.


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    Ross James

    I will not deal in AD Hom return. I will however return the genuine query content within the Ad Hom with more answers from science itself and those studies that pertain to one area of climate science little understood by Climate Skeptics.

    It is called: Paleoclimatology. Now without beating around the bush – this area of science provides one with remarkable insights in areas such as:

    Climate Sensitivity, CO2 concentrations, climate shifts, effects on ecology and volcanic events specific to raising levels of CO2 to high levels so as to effect climate. In answer to many questions raised in the link – our past is often overly simplfied by those sceptical of any links to CO2 concentrations.

    The simplistic model used over and over is that CO2 never ever can drive climate but the preceding events do. For example Volcanic activity if accompanied by huge dust cloud out gassing can plunge our earth into the snowball effect when such events shroud the earth from sunlight over a prolonged length of time. Those events are often instant in the sense of the event time period of effect on climate. What then recovered the earth from these freezing event triggers then?

    This book in great detail puts paid to the simplistic model put forward by Climate Skeptics on the effects of concentrations of CO2 on our past climate.

    In our logically we have to define an event: Example Major out gassing of CO2 and dust followed by climate shift to colder then a warmer planet. What does the “heavy” unseen lifting through energy conservation? – [Meaning CO2 DOES NOT warm the planet in itself but what it does do well is energy conservation within a day/night cycle]

    Encyclopedia of paleoclimatology and ancient environments
    By Vivien Gornitz

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=yRMgYc-8mTIC&pg=PA627&lpg=PA627&dq=paleoclimatology+found+major+outgassing+of+volcanoes+cause+global+warming&source=bl&ots=ODI66IB2SA&sig=jjD0r1SZKLSDeD2w42jzSTa4v_M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=I6hNT6WsDuihmQWr1oEG&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Ross J.


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    crakar24

    Oh almost forgot, the Hawkesbury is expected to flood i do hope Mr Panasonic had the fore thought when purchasing his new home to factor in potental flood threats. My thoughts and prayers go out to him.


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    Graeme No.3

    According to AGW “science” volcanoes do not release CO2. I was not being sarcastic there.

    As the paper points out, the Siberian Traps episode just happened to erupt under a large coal seam and ignited it.
    Sarc on/ Surely you can believe that a coal seam will burn under a layer of lava, so a greenhouse effect occurs. Geologists are mostly sceptical, so their claims of an ice age in the Permian/Triassic can be ignored. Sarc off/

    Seriously, if this is the quality of logical thinking practiced by Warmists, then no wonder they swallow the nonsense about CO2 controlling the climate.


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      Ross James

      Graeme,

      Clearly I never stated this.

      You need to know something. I am constantly being monitored and many of my replies are often censored as being too straight [perhaps boring with science]. I am constantly suspended in moderation = yet the level of Ad Homs is very very low if non-existent.

      Moderators – could we get some sort of undertaking to lift this silly suspension. If you want some undertaking you have got already.

      I can FREELY post on Watts up and Dr Roy Spencers [instant] Anthony Watts has never banned or refused my posts with one exception – one touchy moderator who did like my posts.

      Fair cut of the chop. Mate.

      Ross J.
      [No, you are not being monitored because your comments are "too straight perhaps boring with science". We have better things to do than monitor you all day. The reasons for your moderation have been clearly articulated to you many times. Misrepresenting the moderation as some sort of censure on your "science" is a good way to get yourself permanently banned.
      Calling the moderation "silly" also demeans the work that we do. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT MISREPRESENTING AND FALSELY ACCUSING THE MODERATORS ACTIONS IS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE TO YOUR REQUEST ROSS?
      NO, YOU WILL NOT BE GIVEN ANY SORT OF UNDERTAKING. LIFT YOUR GAME, PROVE YOURSELF, and do it in a hurry, we're sick of monitoring you, we have better things to do. mod oggi]


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        memoryvault

        Ross,

        Here is some science:

        CAGW hypothesis claims CO2 UP = temperature UP and UP and UP.
        Observed data shows CO2 UP = temperature UP . . . and DOWN . . . and UP . . . and DOWN . . .
        Therefore CAGW hypothesis = FALSIFIED.

        QED

        .
        PS – Besides which Ross, being anti – CO2 is so yesterday.
        The new bad evil man-made substances that must be banned to save the planet are hydroflourocarbons.
        Didn’t you get the memo?


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          MattB

          That’t not the CAGW hypothesis, which is in fact CO2 UP = Temp forcing due to CO2 UP + Feedbacks +/- other cyclical and non cyclical factors = UP in foreseeable future but not consistently so over shorter timeframes where other factors have a role, and subject to any other unforseen factors.


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            memoryvault

            Sorry MattB,

            But what you quoted was modified version 1,234,567 of the CAGW “hypothesis” (it gets modified ever few weeks to try to take into account all of the observed data that don’t fit).

            For instance, this time last year, it was more like this:

            CO2 UP = Temp forcing due to CO2 UP + Feedbacks +/- other cyclical and non cyclical factors = UP in foreseeable future but not consistently so over shorter timeframes where other factors have a role, and subject to any other unforseen factors.

            And only about this time two years ago – or even less – it was along these lines:

            CO2 UP = Temp forcing due to CO2 UP + Feedbacks +/- other cyclical and non cyclical factors = UP in foreseeable future but not consistently so over shorter timeframes where other factors have a role, and subject to any other unforseen factors.

            And back when James Hansen first addressed Congress in 1988 it was this:

            CO2 UP = Temp forcing due to CO2 UP + Feedbacks +/- other cyclical and non cyclical factors = (temperature)UP in foreseeable future but not consistently so over shorter timeframes where other factors have a role, and subject to any other unforseen factors.


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          memoryvault,

          The new bad evil man-made substances that must be banned to save the planet are hydroflourocarbons.

          Oh Oh!

          Didn’t they spend millions changing underarm deodorant.

          This will not please that crowd one little bit.

          You Need Uncle Sam

          Tony.


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            memoryvault

            Yeah.

            DuPont’s patent on HFC’s has, or is, about to run out.
            So time for them to be banned, just like CFC’s before them.

            The Montreal Protocol has already been amended to allow for the phasing out of HFC’s between 2013 and 2015 – just nobody has got around to telling the public yet.

            Did I mention DuPont got granted a patent for a suitable replacement for refrigeration gas just last June?

            How lucky is that? I mean, now rather than having to go without refrigeration completely to “save the planet”, all we’ll have to do is buy new fridges and air-conditioners – like last time. As I said – how lucky is that?

            And this time DuPont’s didn’t even have to lash out $250 million for a big party in Montreal – like they did last time.


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            MattB

            With so many raging crackpot conspiracies to keep track of I just don’t know where you find the time MV!


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            How DuPont handled that last time was absolutely despicable.

            Now, they’re doing the same thing again.

            And gee, what do you know.

            That hole in the Ozone layer still just, er, comes and goes.

            Surprise surprise.

            Also, note how Julia’s Labor Government has priced those HFC’s at a CO2 equivalence of up to 6300 times that of CO2.

            Don’t even guess how much all spray products that use those HFC’s will rise.

            This image is from the now passed legislation.

            CO2 Equivalence

            Tony.


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            memoryvault

            So, which part do you dispute MattB?

            That DuPont’s patent has, or is just about to run out.
            That they have just been granted a patent for a replacement (US patent 7,959,825).
            That the phasing out of HFC’s has now been written into Montreal Protocol.
            That, up till now, this fact hasn’t been conveyed to Joe Blow public.
            That a campaign has just been started to “ban HFC’s” to “save the planet from global warming”.
            That eventually this will all mean you cannot recharge an air-conditioning unit or a fridge – you’ll have to buy a new one.
            That all this happened once before – and that the principal shareholder of DuPont Chemicals bankrolled the Montreal meeting that facilitated it all happening.
            That as a result, last time, DuPont ended up with a world-wide monopoly on refrigerants.
            That this time it’s going to end up exactly the same way with exactly the same results.

            Now MattB, either you accept that none of this has happened / is happening, or
            You accept that we are in the process of witnessing possibly the biggest “coincidence” in history, or
            You accept that somebody is pulling strings behind the curtain.


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        Ross James

        Hi Oggi,

        Trust me. It seems to run in smaller “grace” dispensing to a AGW supporter. We are all not that bad.

        I will always stay the course on science – never Ad Homs.

        My argument stands: Watts Up trusts me. Dr Roy Spencer trusts me. How about this site?

        Ross J.


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        John Brookes

        Why is Ross being moderated?

        [you wouldn't understand]ED


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    KeithH

    As Bob Massey at 4.1 notes, many of the commenters agree with McGuire. What is it with these gullible human-haters that they are prepared to accept without question the most outlandish alarmist rubbish and are ready to defend the disaster scenarios “to the death” in the most vitriolic of language against anyone who tries to inject a bit of commonsense into the discussion! Is a puzzlement!!


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      Robert

      The truly sad part is when some type of disaster does occur, they jump up and down with glee doing their “I told you so” dance. They are more interested in some event actually happening so they can say they were right than they are in the suffering that takes place.

      They WANT these things to happen. They may claim otherwise but their actions indicate they WANT them to happen.

      James Delingpole sums an aspect of that up nicely with his recent post Why I am so rude to Warmists.

      He does a very nice job of exposing how the warmist/greenie claim of “preserving the planet for future generations” is a crock. The same kind of “they say this but work for the exact opposite” type of psychosis(?) applies to their yammering on about catastrophes and disasters.


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        Ally E.

        Thanks for that link, Robert.

        James D has got it soooo right. The smaller just-wanna-save-the-world warmist can’t see the woods for the trees, poor dastards. They don’t know what they are doing when they support the Climate Warming Change nonsense. The link you provided is a must-read IMHO. The Big-Mob alarmists, of course, don’t care. Destroying our children’s future along with society is what they are showing themselves to be about, hidden of course in the language claiming to do the very opposite!

        I’ve noticed that the alarmists often do just that. Gleick claiming that he wanted open debate is another example. We said it first, they just said it louder, thanks to MSM bias. Does anyone else notice how the warmists hijack our concerns and our arguments and claim them as their own, but then warp the message for their followers?

        They’ve conveniently discovered a “problem”, they offer the “only” solution. Carbon tax, of course, is only the beginning. A total re-structure of society is what is on the cards, if they get their way. Zero emissions is what they want. What do these idiot warmists think that means? It means no production, no possessions. What is it we have or do that doesn’t involve CO2. Hell, we can’t even breathe without producing it! Or are we supposed to stop doing that as well.

        Sheesh!


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          John Brookes

          No doubt some greenies and AGW believers do want disasters. It takes all types.

          But as for a carbon tax being just the beginning, well, that of course is 100% true. We have gone past the point where the human footprint on the planet was small enough to ignore. The environment has to be carefully managed from here on in.


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      theRealUniverse

      Thinks its akin to those medievals waiting for the world to end on December 31 999 AD.


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    Bruce D Scott

    Well said Jo, if ever there was perspective, that was it.


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    Justine

    ” Ah Yes, the G u a r d i a n “, as one Noble Lord has been known to exclaim from time to time and not without good cause.

    Where a select coiterie of aspiring reporters would seem to keep a Google alerts like watch, not to miss an opportunity to comment on his every move.


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    MargaretO

    Jo, I think that they have already strayed into the area of diseases and pestilence… that is why they dreamed up the nonsense about expected increases in Dengue fever and Malaria, even though the host mosquito must bite someone who is already infected…. probably someone who had travelled to Bali or some other tropical destination and who did not use a mosquito net!


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    GrazingGoat66

    Love the 10 metre rise in sea levels. Do they want to remake “Waterworld”?? Fair dinkum. How can they be taken seriously??

    If they truly want to change the minds of those of us who have “yet to be convinced”, then they’re doing an absolutely shithouse job when they spew forth crap like that.

    And then the SMH repeat it verbatim just to reinforce the reason their share price is roughly equivalent to Gillard’s approval rating and Labor’s primary vote.

    Cheese and bloody Rice…


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    kelm

    What’s deeply embarrassing to me is that he’s a fellow geologist.


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    bob

    we could almost certainly say an eventual goodbye to the Greenland ice sheet, and probably that covering West Antarctica too

    Where do they get this stuff? I don’t know of any credible studies that show this.


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      Ross James

      Polar Opposites? The Grace Satellites confirm Greenland and Western Antarctica are indeed losing vast amounts of ICE MASS.

      Rather then bore you with the factoids – take a look at this web that confirms how Media distorts the science.

      “nothin’ to wurry about here” – (misspelt deliberately)

      Media Matters for America – Web site

      http://mediamatters.org/blog/201202140012

      Ross J.


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        Bob Massey

        Hi Ross, and this Ice loss is due to ?

        Wahr says in this statement,

        Wahr said: “Our results and those of everyone else show we are losing a huge amount of water into the oceans every year … People should be just as worried about the melting of the world’s ice as they were before.”

        This shows us something else http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/plots/icecover/icecover_current.png

        Then we have this http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/gistemp/from:2003/to:2012

        So how can data from a couple of satellites that were launched only recently be used to examine this issue.. IMHO they don’t have enough data yet to make that call and it contradicts the other data we have.

        So IMHO we shouldn’t go into Global Economic Meltdown on some Quest for something that does not exist or maybe the person making the claim should look up other data to back up his statements.

        Sure I am not a Climate Scientist but I have to ask the question. What exactly is a Climate Scientist when they make such unsubstantiated claims. I am willing to listen are they ?


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    John from CA

    New hot springs in Greenland after an earthquake (swarm?)

    “Best to my knowledge there is no known volcanoes in this area [of Greenland] and have not been in the past ~65 million years or longer.”

    A NASA study predicts a 1 foot sea level rise by 2050. Given that we’re headed into a cool phase it may not be that much. The reason Greenland glaciers, largely at the edge of the ice pack, are melting is due to the lack of snow cover. Wind plays a significant role. Erupting volcanoes in Greenland doesn’t seem likely with or without the ice sheet but there are some hot springs.


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  • #

    Since correlation is causality – at least for the shamans who use that (and curses) to keep us simpleminded in line, all we need do is look back at periods warmer than today – Thera, Krakatowa, … oh my! It must be true (just where’d I leave that golden calf when we need it?).


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    crakar24

    OT a little but is this a sign of resignation from GISS?

    http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2012/2011GL050720.shtml


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    Bob Massey

    Crakar24..Hang on a second, isn’t the science settled? Why are they still researching this stuff if it is done dusted? Do they take us for utter fools?

    Oh and it looks there is strong evidence to suggest Solar variability is the cause.. and the Science according to the meme is settled .. Sure looks like it to me.

    Further proof in my eyes that this is the greatest scam ever thought up by a sentient being and I use that term mildly.

    How could the science be ever possibly settled when the evidence comes out on a daily basis that it clearly isn’t.


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    incoherent rambler

    My car will not start. I cannot figure out whether it is caused by Global Warming or Tony Abbott. Help please.


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      crakar24

      If you live on the east coast its probably because you have water in the distributer due to all the rain and therefore by logical extension it is due to global warming.

      If you live anywhere else it must be caused by Abbott.

      Hope this helps


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    Jacques Voorhees

    Allow me to introduce myself. I’m a researcher in the highly-specialized field of carbon volcanology. We study the relationship between man’s outpouring of carbon dioxide and its impact on volcanoes. I say “we” only as a figure of speech, because this field is so specialized I’m so far the only one in it. And by the way, any of you who aren’t carbon volcanologists have no standing to comment on my research, because only carbon volcanologists have sufficient expertise to understand it. And even if you were a carbon volcanologist your opinion still wouldn’t count because you haven’t been published in this field in a peer reviewed publication. And I would know because I own the only such publication (Modern Carbon Vulcanology) and I only publish the results of my own research. Of course it’s fully peer reviewed. That goes quickly as I’m the only peer, so I have to review my own work. Generally I agree with it. Now it’s true I haven’t done any actual research yet, but carbon volcanology is so sophisticated as a science that we don’t actually do empirical research. Everything in this 21st century ultra-science is done by computer modeling. And let me tell you! Those computer models are showing some pretty scary scenarios of what’s going to happen if we don’t start doing a better job of taking care of our planet. Specifically (and this isn’t made up, it’s from real actual computer models you understand), if human civilization doesn’t reduce its carbon dioxide emissions back to the levels we were releasing on October 12, 1889 (see how precise my computer models are? …they are SOOO awesome) the whole planet’s going to blow. And that’s actually the best case scenario according to the computer models. Also, it’s an established fact that 97% of us climate vulcanologists agree with the proposition that humans cause carbon dioxide and that volcanoes are serious things, and so more grant money needs to be made available just in case there’s a possibility that there could be a problem. And anyone who disagrees basically hates children and puppies. Actually, the agreement was 100% but the computer models added in a 3% error bar, which just goes to show you how conservative and diligent those computer models are. Now, I also want to talk about…oh wait. Someone’s at the door. Sorry folks, gotta go. It’s my weekly $10,000 grant from the U.S. Department of Energy. Catch y’all later. Always so much to do, so little time, in the grueling life of a climate volcanologist…


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    Mark

    And the latest news!
    Bob Carr to replace Rudd as FM. Carr, the forme Premier of NSW who never spent a razoo on the state’s ageing infrastructure yet never wasted the slightest media op to spruik about plans for the state’s infrastructure. New roads, new rail corridors, new hospitals; all promised , never delivered.

    Also used to boast about low unemployment in NSW. Yeah, sure. Only because he bloated the state’s public service!

    Julia(r) needs to be afraid, very afraid because notwithstanding that Carr is a “perfumed prince” and little else, the ALP backbenchers are getting more nervous by the day. Gillard’s performance in parliament this week has been awful over the Carr business. She came within a whisker of being vulnerable to a charge of deliberately misleading the House.


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      Kevin Moore

      http://barnabyisright.com/

      Swans Anti Australian Rant a Smokescreen for Treason

      What you are highly unlikely to hear, is Wayne’s essay being called out for what it really is.

      An anti-Australian rant. And a smokescreen for treason.

      How so?

      Consider Wayne’s definitive paragraph:

      But Australia’s fair go is today under threat from a new source. To be blunt, the rising power of vested interests is undermining our equality and threatening our democracy. We see this most obviously in the ferocious and highly misleading campaigns waged in recent years against resource taxation reforms and the pricing of carbon pollution. The infamous billionaires’ protest against the mining tax would have been laughed out of town in the Australia I grew up in, and yet it received a wide and favourable reception two years ago. A handful of vested interests that have pocketed a disproportionate share of the nation’s economic success now feel they have a right to shape Australia’s future to satisfy their own self-interest.

      Note well.

      Wayne uses his essay to single out and publicly attack three (3) Australian citizens.

      All wealthy miners.

      Billionaire activists: Clive Palmer, Andrew Forrest and Gina Rinehart.

      Wayne has singled out this Terrible Three as somehow exemplifying the dangers of “vested interests”, a threat to “democracy” and “equality”.

      Conveniently, Wayne neglects to mention a few relevant facts.

      A lot of relevant facts, actually.

      He neglects to mention that he and Gillard locked these 3 Aussies-made-good out of the behind-closed-doors negotiation of his “mining tax”, and that instead, he negotiated the design of the MRRT exclusively and confidentially with BHP Billiton, Rio Tinto, and Xstrata – the Big Three multinational mining companies.

      He neglects to mention that the final design of the MRRT favours the foreign-owned multinationals – quelle surprise! – and that it will in reality act as a tax minimisation mechanism that will not “spread the wealth of the mining boom”, but will instead help the multinationals to increase their oligopoly, at the expense of much smaller Aussie locals like Palmer, Forrest, and Rinehart.

      (Do you think that just might have something to do with their choosing to become “activists” against this government’s policy agenda?)

      And the carbon tax “vested interests”?

      Again, Wayne very conveniently neglects to mention a few highly relevant facts.

      He neglects to mention that the Green-Labor government’s anointed chief “designer” of the Clean Energy Future legislation, Ross Garnaut, is a career Big Banker and a member of the Trilateral Commission.

      He neglects to mention that the choirmaster for the “eminent economists” who publicly sang in favour of the legislation, Saul Eslake, was at the time the director of the BHP Billiton-founded and funded Grattan Institute; the former chief economist for ANZ Bank; and is now employed by Bank of America Merrill Lynch – a major player in the international CO2 derivatives trade.

      He neglects to mention that Mr Eslake conceded (right here on this blog) that 7 of the 13 “eminent economists” who co-signed the Open Letter in support of the government’s plan to “price carbon” were current employees of banks; that 3 more were former employees of banks; and that only 3 of the 13 had no past or present associations with banks “as far as I know”.

      He neglects to mention that Mr Eslake conceded (right here on this blog) that “..it is true that banks might make money from an emissions trading scheme..”.

      He neglects to mention that just 3 days after the announcement of the draft legislation, leading banks were already announcing plans to cash in via a new carbon derivatives market, one specifically allowed by two tiny clauses buried in the legislation; a new market whose value (to banks) would, in their words, “dwarf” the value of the underlying market for basic carbon permits.

      He neglects to mention other “vested interests” in our society too – like the unions who finance and rule his own party, and the banks who our major political parties rely on for loans to finance their election campaigns. Conflict-of-(vested)-interest, much?

      Wayne has cynically picked out three easy targets to attack, in his class warfare-inciting rant.

      Three fat, unattractive, wealthy, Australian Tall Poppies*.

      Wayne has conveniently neglected to mention his own appalling hypocrisy.

      And his treason.

      Because when it comes to Green-Labor’s two big “economic reforms”, loudly touted as being in the “interests of all Australians”, the truth is that Wayne is personally culpable for selling out the financial best interests of the Australian people to multinational miners, and Big Finance.

      Foreign-owned “vested interests”, whose wealth and power make our homegrown Ms Rinehart, Mr Palmer, and Mr Forrest appear mere paupers by comparison.

      Treasurer Wayne Swan is a cynical, dishonest, anti-Australian, treasonous hypocrite of the lowest order. A disgrace to morally sentient beings.

      He revolts me.


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        Bob Massey

        Thanks for the link Keith. Barnaby is right !!

        Treasurer Wayne Swan is a cynical, dishonest, anti-Australian, treasonous hypocrite of the lowest order. A disgrace to morally sentient beings.


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    Mark Hladik

    Ross, MattB, John (Brookes) and Tristan:

    Check out a post appearing today on Anthony’s WUWT. Allow a couple of hours to thoroughly digest it.

    This is important: “Why CAGW theory is not settled science”.

    You have only knowledge to fear …

    Regards,

    Mark H.


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    Markus Fitzhenry

    WATER PLANET

    Earth is the water planet,
    All its great continents shifting
    In a world awash with seas,
    Crested waves rifting its shores.

    Water planet,
    Viewed from space, like a snapshot
    From the gods, a shimmering orb
    Netted in a cloud haze.

    Noah’s flood is with us yet,
    Its opal waters inundate the land
    with mirrored pools

    Drifting shadows brush the plains
    with fugitive mist. Distant
    Mountains, ridges of lapis lazuli
    Rim the sky that lifts
    across latitudes from sombre
    Indigo to brilliant azurite.

    For eternity it will traverse
    in speechless awe of wonders
    a bed of beauty, encumbrance of life
    yet with wide brown lands
    of flood and drought

    The yearn of a grey-blue distance
    Fast rivers and soft dim skies
    I know but cannot share it,
    My love means otherwise.

    Earth is the water planet,
    All its great continents shifting
    In a world awash with seas,
    Crested waves rifting its shores

    Water planet,
    Viewed from space, like a snapshot
    From the gods, a shimmering orb
    Netted in a cloud haze.

    Beth Cooper


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  • #

    The Guardian is losing it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/mar/03/michael-mann-climate-change-deniers

    It uncritically quotes Michael Mann, the hockey team’s centre forward, of accusing sceptics of a “crime against humanity” then complains of “hate” directed against him.


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    J.Hansford

    I think the Guardian has almost reached it’s most hysterical fever pitch. I expect to see a headline very shortly that reads.

    GLOBAL WARMING STOLE MY BABY!

    or

    EVIL CLIMATE PROBES FROM URANUS

    It’s pretty much reached that level…. Or rather, plumbed those depths. ;-)


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  • #

    [...] The Guardian: CO2 Apocalypse Now! Volcanoes, earthquakes, awaken subterranean giants [...]


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