JoNova

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Through the looking glass greenly at the ABC

Is the ABC biased? Do we even need to ask?

The local state Liberals (the conservative party, who are in government in this state of Western Australia) voted overwhelmingly in favor of a Royal Commission on climate change science. Now that is a news story all by itself. It could have had headlines like: “Liberals demand climate scientists be put to the test”, “WA Liberals demand answers from Climate Science”.

Instead the ABC makes its headlines from almost the only person in the room who disagreed:

WA Liberal climate change motion ‘stupid’: Washer and

Liberal MP ridicules party’s royal commission idea

Actually, he wasn’t even in the room. As it happens, Mal Washer didn’t attend the conference last weekend, and sums up his total insight into why this motion was passed overwhelmingly:

” I don’t know who brought it up and I don’t know who would be silly enough to support it.”

“I don’t know how many were there when this, I was not there when this happened, right, so I don’t know how many people were there”

... I don’t know how that slipped through. Whether they’re a bit battle fatigued at the end of the day….”

Since I hear practically the whole party supported it (apart from Leader Colin Barnett, and possibly a couple of young libs), and Mal Washer wasn’t even there, it seems the ABC sought out the one person who knew the least to ask him the question he was baffled by. With this technique of interviewing the people who don’t know the answers, it’s obvious why the ABC are ten years behind on climate reporting. They could have interviewed anyone, anyone else from the Liberal Party ranks, and learned more. Indeed one member wrote to me to describe the meeting, and said there was virtually no dissent in the room, and support for the idea was loudly vocal. It wouldn’t be too hard surely to find someone else to interview?

Instead all the ABC listeners got was the combination of the words “stupid and senseless” and  “ludicrous and silly” with “Liberal Party”. There was little actual content but much repetition (three uses of “stupid”, five of “silly”) not to mention the anti-science propaganda line  of argument-from-authority, as well as yet another old-news-dig at Tony Abbott for saying that CO2 was weightless (a silly but irrelevant slip).

Even the SMH managed to do some reporting:  WA Libs push for climate royal commission. And from the other side of the nation we find out why a Royal Commission might be a good idea.

Federal Liberal MP Dr Dennis Jensen has called consistently for a royal commission saying it would allow an “honest, public debate, free of emotion”.

But the state Liberal Party executive on Tuesday told Dr Jensen not to comment on the matter ahead of the conference but has previously said a royal commission was the only way forward in the climate change debate.

He said the standing committee on science had demonstrated that “scientists who make unambiguous statements publicly” are more cautious if false or misleading comments can result in them being found in contempt of court.

“This alone is clear evidence a royal commission into the science of climate change will provide us with answers, particularly when examining the parts played by the Bureau of Meteorology and the CSIRO,” he said.

Who would have thought of phoning Dennis Jensen, the WA federal Liberal skeptic who is based in Perth?

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Through the looking glass greenly at the ABC, 5.5 out of 10 based on 2 ratings

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105 comments to Through the looking glass greenly at the ABC

  • #
    Brett_McS

    Apart from being home to the subsidised left, in terms of content the ABC has become Just Another Channel. Time to kick it off the taxpayer’s back! The other channels and new media can fill the gap.

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  • #
    Joe V.

    There were calls for Enquiries in England after Climategate & they had what was it , three of them(?), and they all washed whiter than white, because ultimately Parliamentary Enquiries exist to exonerate Parliament.

    A Judicial process would have been more balanced, and more competent and determined at getting to the truth.

    Now a Royal Commission is seen in some ways as being more independent of Parliament, & could have been more effective than these Enquiries and many skeptics would then have welcomed it, so I don’t see what’s so wrong with calling for a Royal Commission as such, but into what exactly. This we don’t seem to know. Into the Science – what about the Science?
    Indeed did those present fully understand what it was they were calling for a Royal Commission into, by the ‘Science’?
    Did they mean the Scientific process, the funding, the evidence or what exactly. ( as the UK Enquiries incidentaly, made every effort to avoid questioning the ‘Science’ itself).

    So yes , the ABC would appear entirely malicious in reporting it as they have, but that would be nothing new, would it Wendy Carlisle ?

    The most recent Enquiry into the BBC’s ‘balance’ was the most unbalanced , partisan, bare faced piece of advocacy of all such Climate related Enquiries.

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  • #
    Rereke Whakaaro

    He who pays the piper calls the tune.

    Government sponsored news agencies will always push the government line – always have and always will. Even the much vaunted BBC pushed propaganda during both World Wars in Europe, and for some reason failed to stop. Why would the ABC be any different?

    Private enterprise news agencies need some access to their sources, and in most cases it is a liaison with a “Press Officer”, who of course pushes propaganda.

    The only way to really find out what is going on, is either to find people on the web who actually know what is going on from personal experience in their occupations (which is illegal in many countries), or to watch the peripheral activities (where money is being invested, who is attending which conferences, etc) and figure it out from there.

    The Chinese call it, “having soft eyes”.

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  • #
    DougS

    If it happens, let’s hope that it’s not like the Climategate whitewashes.

    They simply gave the AGW alarmists the opportunity to state that: ‘climategate was a non-event – three whitewashes inquiries have exonerated everyone’

    Can you imagine the ABC headlines if that was the result!

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  • #
    Roy Hogue

    I just can’t imagine why anyone would call a royal commission a bad idea?

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  • #
    Roy Hogue

    Except maybe for the contempt of court possibility.

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  • #
    Bulldust

    Trying to demonstrate media bias is often very difficult, but it is quite obvious to even the casual reader of the ABC. Equally obvious is that no one has the political will to call them on it.

    It is incredibly rare to see the ABC report any criticism of the Government except for the token blog here and there, that it has become laughable. This with a Government which the polls show is hugely unpopular.

    Seriously ABC… lift your game.

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  • #
    TheTrucks are Coming ....

    The trouble is , did any of the indictable crimes take place in Australia.
    The Data manipulation, the conspiracy to rig peer review, the Hockey Stick, presenting graphs upside down, misrepresentation of the Peer Reviewed science (IPCC)
    Has Australia been anything other than just a willing funder of the UN Climate Circus ?

    What is there for a Royal Commission to find in Aus.?
    It could well be a massive waste of Money, unless it’s the science itself on trial, but they’d never do that.

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  • #
    Brett_McS

    Bulldust, “…no one has the political will…”. The highlight of the night of the recent NSW election for me was Barry O’Farrell blowing off the ABC’s Red Kerry. That was beautiful.

    (I think I was sitting next to you at the Newcastle Monkton/Evans/Nova talk?)

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  • #

    George Orwell 1984, excerpt.

    “….The dark-haired girl behind Winston had begun crying out ‘Swine! Swine! Swine!’ and suddenly she picked up a Newspeak dictionary and flung it at the screen. It struck Goldsteins nose and bounced off;the voice continued inexorably…..”

    There is a message there.

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  • #

    A domino effect, maybe? AGW in WA falls, working its way to the east and knocking out the religion in Canberra.

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  • #
    handjive

    Here is a news extra that might be relevant:

    JULIA Gillard has lost her communications director.
    A former ABC journalist, Mr Mahoney has worked for Ms Gillard since 2009, and before that worked for NSW Labor government minister John Watkins.

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  • #

    [...] Fairfax and the ABC seem content to focus on the dissent within the party over the plan. This includes premier Colin [...]

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  • #
    pattoh

    I don’t think it would come as a great surprise but a significant number of current ALP political staff (particularly press secretaries) are former ABC journos. One has to wonder how the old mates network influences “scoops”, “informed sources” “leaks????” & character make-overs (& assasinations.

    A good example was the mass migration from Toowong ABC to various ministers offices when Peter Beattie ( an absolute media darling & ALP icon) became Qld Premier.

    I guess it is a facet of both sides of the political spectrum, but they are certainly big on the ALP Cheer Squad.

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  • #

    To horridly misquote Monty Python: the ABC is always looking on the dark side of life..

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  • #
    handjive

    Jonova makes a note of this:

    …as well as yet another old-news-dig at Tony Abbott for saying that CO2 was weightless (a silly but irrelevant slip).

    All Australians have been subject to years of LaboUr govt. sponsored climate advertisements of black balloons, full of carbon dioxide pollution, squeezing out of electrical devices, and floating weightlessly up into the air.

    Now, this information from the government must be correct, having been cleared from her climate science advisers and stringent advertising ethics.

    Carbon dioxide is weightless. Lighter than air.

    So, who could blame Abbott for saying this, as he gets his advice, like all of us, from the same ‘settled consensus science, non-skeptical’ government funded scientists.

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  • #
    Glen Michell

    I really hope a royal commission proceeds,but one doubts it! It’s another matter for this site to slump into ridiculouscriticims of the goverment when you will not criticise Abbott and his dithering populism on about every issue.Where does he stand on AGW;where does he stand on landowner/mining interests?? This government for all it’s failings is far preferable to a party and it,s leader who are nothing but sore losers and can offer nothing except endless negative carping! Keep up the work on diseminating the fraud of AGW and desist from trailer-trash type commentary.

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  • #
    Slabadang

    Defund:

    ABCCP
    BBCCP

    Arent you fed up paying for pure propaganda?

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  • #
    RoyFOMR

    Interesting to note that, over here in Blighty, BBC radio has given exposure to the dissent in Oz.
    Ok, they had to mention the ‘death/insult/annoyed’ threats that ‘Scientists’ were being flooded with.
    No mention of the cutaneous carving up of CC questioners but they did point out the 25% drop over the last few years of belief that emissions are less of a problem than first thought.
    The longest journey starts with one step.

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  • #
    Tom

    The ABC was once a badge of honour on your CV if you were a journalist. Now, the more senior you are, the more you want to hide it if you’re going for a job in most of the rest of the media. Senior people like Tony Jones, who has become a propagandist for the Green Left, are virtually unemployable outside “the unsackable staff collective”. Only ABC Sport and Rural journos, who haven’t got involved in politics (and therefore are among the few at the ABC who pass journalists’ own ethics standards), are valued.

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  • #
    Twodogs

    Well if they’re going to be pendantic, isn’t CO2 effectively weightless? Sure, it has mass, but weighs no more than me floating in space. And as handjive said, government ads imply precisely that!

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  • #
    JMD

    A Royal Commission? How much is that gonna cost? Lawyers charge by the minute you know.

    How about the WA government just comes out & says they don’t believe the evidence supports the connection between CO2 & changing climate.

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  • #
    Glen Michell

    ….and whydon’t you criticise MLA in it’s handling of live exports! By the way we’ve got abeaut new school hall here- more than we ever got under Johnny -except for pork-barreling at election time which never came to pass! I’ll give some credit to tony Abbott though-at least he fronted up against some ofthe woeful banners put around by this rabble!

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  • #
    incoherent rambler

    For a Royal Commission to work you need:

    A fiercely independent commisioner;
    Viable terms of reference;

    My questions for a commission investigate:

    Have government funded individuals and organizations deliberately falsified data or presented modified raw data to support their assertions? (This would cover the ABC, CSIRO, BOM and the Dept of CC).

    Have government funded individuals and organizations stifled debate and discussion of AGW?

    Can the proposition of AGW be proven (in a legal sense) to be true or false?

    If the answer to any of the questions above is yes, then who and how?

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  • #
    Andrew Marven

    Yes – a royal commission – what an excellent idea – and let’s put the sceptics on the stand too.
    That’s to be questioned and answer not soap-box.

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  • #
    Bruce of Newcastle

    The ABC could easily play a neutral hand in this. All they’d have to do is look at some of the key papers on the Science Show or on Catalyst.

    Willie Soon’s 2005 paper shows a close correlation of total solar irradiance with Arctic temperatures – I’m sure Mr Williams could explain this. They could also go into the correlation between the solar cycles and temperature as in Butler & Johnston 1996 and many others. Or they could just graph HadCrut or the CET against solar cycle length and then explain the regression coefficient for ABC viewers.

    Enghoff et al 2011 shows that cosmic rays can influence cloud generation and feedback cooling related to the solar magnetic cycle – perfect Catalyst material, especially when they could do scenes in the CERN LHC near Geneva with lots of sexy equipment in the background. Or they could go interview Prof Rao in India – the ex head of the Indian space program and cosmic ray scientist.

    Or they could interview Prof Lindzen about his recent paper with Dr Choi meansuring 2XCO2 at 0.7 C, and what that’d mean to temperature in 2100 for expected pCO2e values.

    The science is all there in its peer reviewed glory or whatever, ABC, all you need to do is to do the same thing you do to the latest polar bear findings.

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  • #
    Colin Davidson

    A Royal Commission would clear the air.

    Terms of reference:
    1. Was uncertainty correctly assessed and presented in the Climate Commission’s recent report: “The Critical Decade” ? If not, is the Climate Commission a competent expert?
    2. Was uncertainty in the IPCC’s latest report on renewables correctly ascertained and presented? If not, is the IPCC a competent expert?
    3. Does the IAC report into the IPCC provide prima facie evidence that the IPCC is not a competent expert?
    4. In its papers and statements on sea levels and rainfall, has the CSIRO correctly determined and presented uncertainty? If not, is the CSIRO a competent expert?
    5. In its papers and statements on temperature, has the Bureau of Met correctly determined and presented uncertainty? If not, is the Bureau of Met a competent expert?
    6. Dud Garnaut rigorously assess the discount rate? If not, is Garnaut a competent expert?

    00

  • #
    Robert of Ottawa

    We have the same problem in Canada, it’s called the CBC. Nest of evil socialists who think it’s their right to tell us inferior nematodes what to think. Grrrr!

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  • #
    MattB

    “Carbon dioxide is weightless. Lighter than air.”

    Um, I hate to break it to you, but no it’s not. CO2 is heavier than air. (@STP 1.98kg/m^3 vs “air” at about 1.3kg m^3)

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  • #
    Bob of Castlemaine

    Maybe Tony Abbott was taken in by the black balloons (carbon dioxide) propaganda ads of the former Victorian ALP government. Clearly when the government produced those facile ads they believed carbon dioxide to be weightless in air?

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  • #
    Damian Allen

    Canberra Rally Report………

    We made the effort to travel down to Canberra from Coffs for the day .
    We left at midnight, drove to Newcastle for 4 hours, caught the bus from there to Canberra, attended the rally, caught the bus back to Newcastle and then drove 4 hours back to Coffs to arrive home around 1am.
    It was a very long and tireing day but it had to be done !!!

    We are so ANGRY with this ILLEGITIMATE communist gillard “government”.

    ELECTION NOW !

    For the record a head count was performed at the rally in Canberra and the attendance was over 5000 people,

    The ABC only started filming AFTER the rally and when the majority of the crowd had dispersed !!
    We witnessed this first hand!

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  • #
    Damian Allen

    SELL THE ABC (Australians Being Censored) and SBS!!

    I DONT WANT MY HARD EARNED TAXPAYERS DOLLARS BEING USED TO SUPPORT MARXISTS AND COMMUNIST TRAITORS !

    ELECTION NOW !!!!

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  • #
    Damian Allen

    I saw a bit more of our Democracy eroded yesterday at the Rally in Canberra. Bronwyn Bishop addressed the crowd – the first of Our MPs. She told us that gillard had decided to move the afternoon session of Parliament back – from 2pm to 1:15pm so that swan could speak on an important matter!!! Remember, the Rally started at 12noon. This meant that those MPs wanting to address the gathered crowd, would have their time cut short as they would need to be back in time for this sitting. I bet she thought she had won! The crowd booed and jeered this – what she did was add to the anger out there!

    We still got to hear Tony, Warren, Barnaby, Sophie, and Bronwyn and many other wonderful speakers. The organisers moved the opening back to 11.30am – those still streaming off the buses only missed the announcements like where toilets, first aid etc. were. And we heard early from the bus driver from Melbourne – what a passionate man he was! I think those walking up from the bottom heard him anyway – he certainly was loud and proud to be an Aussie! gillard is a disgrace and will use any method to stop the people from hearing the truth. Lying will bring this government down!

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  • #
    Patrick

    Yes let’s have a Royal Commission with terms of reference as cited by Colin Davidson above. The central principles should be
    (a) separate the real science from advocacy on the part of ‘climate scientists’
    (b) examine how (in)accurately the ‘climate scientists’ have appraised the politicians

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  • #
    incoherent rambler

    #23

    Yes – a royal commission – what an excellent idea – and let’s put the sceptics on the stand too.

    The worst nightmare of the pro AGWers. Lindzen on the stand.

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  • #
    Bob of Castlemaine

    Bruce of Newcastle:@24
    I’m sure you know the ABC will never play a neutral hand in scientific debate. To those blinkered zealots objective neutrality would represent a betrayal of their Marxist cause.
    By the way, notwithstanding all the hype about their demise, it seems polar bears are doing quite well thankyou.

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  • #
    Penelope

    I watched some footage of the recent anti-carbon tax rally in Canberra a couple of days ago. It struck me that rather than ridiculing the people who attended that rally one should probably feel not a little sorry for them. Angry, old, befuddled, feeling left behind by the rapid and confusing changes of a fast moving modern world. A world that is no longer safe and predictable (if it ever was). I guess it’s not surprising that they lash out at “commie-nazis” (wtf?!) and all this “book learnin’and new fangled wireless thingys”. Don’t even mention poofters getting married, my god the world will come a-crashing down and satan will have his way with all of us. Since time began there have always been those who resist the winds of change and today is no different I guess. But the winds will change and I doubt they will wait for any of us. The new developing world certainly wont.

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  • #
    Andrew Marven

    The above raving of Damian Allen show why it’s dangerous to be an Australian – the barbarians are at the gate. The mob !

    Patrick says” separate the real science from advocacy on the part of ‘climate scientists’
    (b) examine how (in)accurately the ‘climate scientists’ have appraised the politicians”

    well won’t that be a heap of fun separating the lies and sheer stupidity of Aussie sceptics from science reality. It won’t be blogging boys and girls !
    Let’s add disinformation by Aussie sceptics as one of the Commissions lines of inquiry? Who has been misinforming who?

    Can we start on Plimer’s book? Bolt and Jones advocacy. Let’s play it all back.

    And please please please put Lindzen on the stand ! Oh yes. You lot have no idea … BRING IT ON ! Last time Lindzen was debated by someone serious he was hit out of the stadium.

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  • #
    Bruce of Newcastle

    Bob at #34

    Ah, you didn’t look at the polar bear link! I used that link on purpose – an example of when Media Watch was upholding its original neutrality.

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  • #

    Andrew Marven @35

    Excuse me ! I can’t find anything from Damian Allens @ 31 that has those references.

    I think you meant to respond to Patrick @ 32 but I could be wrong. Us skeptics aren’t always correct.

    Say YES to an election now !!

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  • #
    incoherent rambler

    The penalties for lying, deceiving or misleading a royal commision (in the state of vic anyway) are severe. Of the obvious people to call before a royal commission, who gets the vote as the most likely to change his public story when under oath before a royal commission?
    No we do not want journos, politicians and political commentators under oath. Just the “scientists” who are funded by government.

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  • #

    MattB @ 27

    Thanks for that but I think we know CO2 is heavier than air and Jo did point that out !!

    Say YES to an election now !!

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  • #
    AusieDan

    Before organising a royal commission, it is extremely important to study how the NSW Costigan Commission was run.
    The key to success is to have a knowlegeable, neutral secretariat, firing the questions.

    Any AGW believer who thinks that a properly run royal commission would destroy the sceptical case – Just bring it on!

    I for one do not care about the outcome, provided it is run honestly and competently.
    Most skeptics are scientists at heart.
    We just want to know the truth and have the truth broadcast far and wide.
    Oh and yes.
    We want the truth fully acknowledged and acted upon by governments and by bodies such as the CSIRO, BOM and even the ABC.

    We want the data, methods, computer code and meta data to be published for all to see and understand.
    Skeptics are not afraid of the unvarnished truth about the climate.

    And finally, “realists” is perhaps a better term than “skeptics”, but then names will never hurt us.
    The truth will set us free.

    So please bring on a properly organised and resourced Royal Commission, ASAP.

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  • #
    Andrew Barnham

    Andrew Marven @35. Yeah – lets bring it on, why not put sceptics on the stand too; Plimer, Alan Jones, next to Flannery, Gaurnat, David Jones too. Lets have a proper, thorough outing the issue, inside and out, so that people such as myself who ‘lost our religion’ in terms of blind faith of trusting work output of the experts we rely upon and have a solid go at laying those doubts to rest. Lets take a thorough look at the experts and the institutions they operate within are effective and competent, and that their professional outputs are sound, have that detailed and critical analysis in the public domain for all of us to absorb and process.

    And if it turns out I did indeed back the wrong horse, I’ll eat some crow and you can continue to act like a smug, rude, know-it-all; and you and I can agree to work together to save ourselves and our fellow man from the impending doomsday apocalyptic fireball death of the entire planet and our civilisation.

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  • #

    [...] Nova on spin at the ABC. We pay money for this? Media Watch will go after this like a [...]

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  • #

    Hmm, MattB!
    I was just wonderin’.
    Go outside and look up.
    See those clouds, if there are any.
    Those clouds are suspended H2O, which makes up 1.96% of the total Atmosphere.
    CO2, barely 0.0392% of that total Atmosphere, and, as you so rightly say, it is ‘heavier than air’, as is that suspended H2O.
    Using your heavier than air, er, logic, say, shouldn’t that CO2, which is around three times heavier than that suspended H2O, just waft gently back to the surface of the Planet, to, er, feed every green growing thing during daylight hours, after the Sun rises and turns on that process in those green things.
    Go on, bite!
    Tony.
    (nyuk nyuk nyuk!)

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  • #
    Andrew Marven

    Just think Andrew Barnham – we could examine Archibald’s global cooling apocalypse. McLean’s El Nino GRL dabblings… The background on a dodgy brothers product like FULLCAM – I wonder who might have been in there. Perhaps demand some emails and do some social network mapping on sceptics, think tanks and business interests. Wouldn’t it be all good fun.

    ” save ourselves and our fellow man from the impending doomsday apocalyptic fireball death of the entire planet and our civilisation.” – mmmmm …. sounds a tad alarmist – will you be defending this statement in the dock? or would we take that as a little embellishment ? The Commissioner might take a dim view of nonsense like that.

    Let he who is without sin cast the first stone !

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  • #
    handjive

    @MattB:
    August 17th, 2011 at 10:33 am ( comment #27)

    MattB says, “CO2 is heavier than air. (@STP 1.98kg/m^3 vs “air” at about 1.3kg m^3)”.

    Thanks for that info, MattB.
    Confirmation that the Rudd/Gillard LaboUr government & the Dept. of Climate Control are responsible for fraudulent & mis-leading advertising with junk climate science & the ‘weightless black balloons’ campaign.
    This sounds like a job for the Carbon (sic) Cops.

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  • #
    pat

    on google’s news page today, not an article on the Canberra protest yesterday. there are two groups of stories relating to CAGW. at the top of one group of stories, right at the bottom of the Google news page, is this:

    Carbon tax to be introduced to parliament
    ABC Online – Jeremy Thompson – ‎3 hours ago‎

    the other group of news stories, has these:

    Climate change hitting WA’s South West hardest
    ABC Online – ‎Aug 15, 2011‎

    WA coastal towns among most at risk in the world: Climate Commission
    Sydney Morning Herald – Courtney Trenwith – ‎Aug 15, 2011‎

    Act now on climate to save WA: report
    Ninemsn – ‎21 hours ago‎

    WA gets grim climate warning
    The West Australian – Daniel Mercer – ‎Aug 15, 2011‎

    am afraid it’s all the MSM, not just ABC. SHAME ON THEM ALL.

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  • #
    Andrew Barnham

    Andrew Marven. I have no issue holding Archibald to account for his cold alarmist scenarios; you and I are somewhat alike in considering his alarmist stance to be nonsense. If what you want out of a RC is an opportunity to out shoddy work from well known sceptics, you can count on my support for this; as long as I can count upon your support for an RC to go through the climate science institution with a fine tooth comb in order to validate, one way or another, the veracity of the science and out any shoddy work (if any) in this institution. Also I will call upon your support to verify if various 3 tiers of governments policy development with respect to climate change, is also scrutinised; to verify policy is fair, and appears to have a fair chance at delivery of stated goals.

    I’ll admit that my assertion of “apocalyptic fireball death” has a tinge of strawman and flamebait about it; but given the tenor of your posts here (more suited for a blog such as Deltoid), I think it should yourself who should be taking a careful account of whom threw stones first. Yet I stand by this assertion on the basis that it is a genuine conviction held by many that CAGW is going to mortally damage our civilisation. As such I would be comfortable re-iterating it in a court of law as a fair characterization of the views many people with whom I disagree with on the issue of CAGW; particularly when juxtaposed against public statements make by people such as Flannery and Garnaut.

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  • #
    Speedy

    TonyfromOz @ 42

    Your post at 42 is picking a battle of wits with an unarmed man! Of course CO2 is lighter than air – I saw it on the ABC! Haven’t you watched those news clips of smoke stacks belching CO2 into our pristine atmosphere? As all ABC viewers will know, CO2 is a white, fluffy gas that RISES in the air – and is therefore lighter. QED.

    However, a sceptic may not believe everything they are told, even by the ABC – and MattB will be with us on this one. If he has a mind of his own, he will be considering the possibility that the “CO2″ shown on the ABC is nothing more than condensed water vapour from a cooling tower etc, which happens to be rising because it is warmer than the surrounding air.

    And MattB will be probably a little upset at the misinformation being shoved down the public’s throat by “our” ABC…

    Cheers,

    Speedy

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  • #
    Bulldust

    Brett_McS:
    Nope re Newcastle – never been there. I live in Perth. I would have liked to be on tour, mind you.

    Shame O’Farrell did not have the political will to follow through on the scrapping of the hugely inefficient solar-PV scams schemes in NSW, despite the huge election win.

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  • #
    cohenite

    Andrew Marvin@38; what debate involving Lindzen resulted in him being “hit out of the stadium”? And can you ratchet down the hyperbole?

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  • #
    memoryvault

    Andrew Marven @ 46

    we could examine Archibald’s global cooling apocalypse

    Andrew Barnham @ 49

    I have no issue holding Archibald to account for his cold alarmist scenarios

    Way back in the 1960′s when I was in high school we were taught that climate went in 20 to 30 year cycles of warming and cooling. Further, these warming and cooling cycles in turn fitted into longer warming and cooling cycles, as evidenced by the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age.

    Thus far there has been zero evidence of anything happening outside of those cycles, regardless of what the cultists of doom might like to claim. We had cooling from the late 1940′s to the mid 1970′s, warming from the mid 70′s to around 2000, and stasis or cooling since then.

    When we went through the last cooling cycle the western world was in a period of expansion following the second world war. Energy was cheap and plentiful and supply was rapidly being expanded. The western world was growing an increasing amount of surplus food to make available to those less fortunate.

    Countries like the USA, Canada and Australia had the financial capacity and the political will to be able to create opportunities for those less fortunate in other parts of the world. The mass-migrations to Australia from Europe and the construction of the Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric scheme spring readily to mind.

    Compare that situation to what we have today.

    Today we have a western world utterly bereft of excess energy as a result of 20 years of playing with inefficient windmills and solar panels that will NEVER supply base-load power. This was done on the “advice” of “experts” like Flannery, Steffen, Karoly, the CSIRO and BoM and their counterparts in other countries.

    We have 30% + and growing of the world’s surplus (exportable) food now diverted to the manufacture of biofuels while people go hungry and starve to death. This also can be put down to the “science” of people like Flannery, Steffen, Karoly, the CSIRO and BoM and their counterparts in other countries.

    On top of that, we have the western world teetering on the brink of financial collapse so there are no funds available for anything like the building and migration efforts that were implemented in the last cool period. Finally, in most of the western world we now have a political class incapable of concentrating on anything other than getting into power and remaining in power.

    So, in a nutshell, if we are indeed going into a perfectly natural 20 to 30 year cooling period as appears to be the case from all the observed data, then we are doing so utterly bereft of excess energy, surplus food, investment capital or political will to do anything much at all about the dire consequences for the 90% of the world’s population living in the northern hemsiphere.

    .

    That sounds like a pretty fair recipe for an “apocalypse” to me.

    I’m with David Archibald.

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    Bruce D Scott

    Washer was very verbose for somebody who did not know anything and was absent.

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    Crakar24

    re post 29 & 46,

    Ah MattyB caught in your own web of lies.

    what a laugh you are.

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    Crakar24

    I wonder if this is related?

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/16/new-paper-from-lindzen-and-choi-implies-that-the-models-are-exaggerating-climate-sensitivity/

    Lets see MattB claims CO2 is heavier than air which means most CO2 sits around on the ground not up with the lighter air……Hmmmm maybe there is a connection.

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    Andrew Marven

    Andrew Barnham – and so we agree – we just want an accurate assessment of the science and the risks. Flannery has been shown to be alarmist. Garnaut smart but oh so partisan and subject to social engineering with discount rates. But sceptics should be most concerned about a serious Royal Commission vis a vis a kangaroo court. You won’t be grandstanding at a Commission – it will be more “answer the question”. And even if your inability to keep framing slips in a “mortally damage our civilisation” they should swatting such rhetoric for what it is. Doesn’t have to mortally damaging – moreover it might just be common sense risk mitigation and risks not “mortally damaging” simply expensive and damn inconvenient.

    Again Memory Vault lapses into alarmists’ preferred sceptic memes -e.g. mass production of biofuels will cause hordes to starve – well only if we’re stupid enough to allow such things. Are we? “Flannery, Steffen, Karoly, the CSIRO and BoM and their counterparts in other countries” are advocating such starvation – they ARE? Or is that you jazzing up the sceptic scare-narios?

    And the obsession with solar and wind. More corralling the debate techniques. Strangely the more serious thinkers on AGW have become next-gen nuclear advocates. See bravenewclimate.com and Barry Brooks. Even Hansen himself. And fancy Memory Vault having such a knowledgeable science teacher. Pity the world is still warming and Archibald’s North American wheat belt buried under ice scenario seems a ways away. Or perhaps unfounded poor science. Do we have a well reviewed publication from well considered journal. That’s right – of course not.

    Cohenite – if have the Lindzen/Dessler debate as any guide I’m most confident.

    But again let the cards fall as they may. Warmists won’t escape unscathed either. Possibly for dumbing down the risks for polite consumption.

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    cohenite

    Andrew, what are you most confident about in respect of the Lindzen/Dessler debate?

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    Bob of Castlemaine

    Bruce of Newcastle: @ 37
    I did look at your link Bruce, and you’re right it is a rare instance of where Mediawash failed to adhere to the preferred ABC group think narrative. Mediadawash is normally rock solid left but there are a few people within the ABC (Michael Duffy is one who comes to mind) who refuse to toe the company line.
    Forgive my generalisation, it must be the frustration at being forced to contribute to the funding of such a fundamentally biased organisation.

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    Andrew Barnham

    Andrew Marven @58. Your comments about me personally and how you would think I would conduct myself in some hypothetical RC setting are so absurd I won’t even bother de-constructing the nature of the silliness. If you insist on haranguing and attacking all and sundry will full-force, like I said before, maybe Deltoid is more your cup of tea.

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    Bruce of Newcastle

    Andrew Marven at #58

    Andrew – if a RC is called and they called me for some unknowable reason (OK, yes I’m a scientist and I’m a knowledgeable amateur in climate science) then I’d be happy to front up with alacrity. You can see the papers I linked to at #26. There are many, many more which show the carbon tax is not supported by science, if you are willing to take the blinkers off.

    As to the Lindzen/Dessler debate any neutral party can read about the strange behaviour of NAS regarding the recent paper and make their own mind up as to what it means. In my view it offers a perfect example of “will keep them out somehow – even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!”

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    Andrew Marven at Comment 58,
    yes, Nuclear electrical power generation is definitely the way to go, but here in Oz, that’s so far off the table, it’s not even on the menu yet. It’s at least decades away, even at the most optimistic.
    Now, why we, (and me especially) keep ‘harping on’ about wind and solar power is because that is on the menu.
    What needs to be done with respect to wind and solar is to highlight the blatant lies being propounded by those people who are not only putting it on the menu, they’re dishing it up to people who not only didn’t order it, but wouldn’t order it if they knew the facts.
    What I am attempting to do is to point out those facts.
    Those people who are ‘believers’ in wind and solar are the ones who are saying that we shouldn’t go on about them because it diverts what they call the main debate, and anything that points out inconvenient facts is something we should not be discussing.
    Tell me, when do you start the debate about wind and solar.
    After they are already dished up, and people find that not only does it taste bad, it’s not even cooked properly.
    Those, er, inconvenient facts need to be pointed out right now, because these forms of power generation are the end result of what is approaching a closed debate on the original Science.
    It’s not a distraction.
    It’s the whole damned focus.
    Tony.

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    Crakar24

    To Andrew and Andrew,

    I am not sure the WA RC will have quiet the reach you are hoping for. I say this because most of the worlds governments and of course the Australian Gov. have set their policy agenda based on the wisdom of the IPCC with a healthy dose of input from freelance scientists. Therefore surely the RC will look solely at the merits of said sources, i do not see any merit in delving into the merits of scientists whose thoughts and theories are regularily ignored by governments.

    All this RC will do is try to understand the accuracy and solidity of the scientific foundation the predictions/projections are based and if it is found to be solid then nothing will change however if this foundation is thought to be built on quicksand then there maybe a rethink in how policies are developed. I think if one looked at this objectively one would have to assume the outcome of the RC will not bode well for the IPCC and its freelance employees.

    Having said that i doubt the outcome of the WA RC no matter what it is will alter the course of the Labor/Green coalition one iota. They have their agenda in place and the train without its driver has left the station.

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    memoryvault

    Andrew Marven @ 58

    mass production of biofuels will cause hordes to starve

    Not WILL, Andrew, IS. Yes, apparently we have been “stupid enough” to allow it to happen.

    And the obsession with solar and wind. More corralling the debate techniques. Strangely the more serious thinkers on AGW have become next-gen nuclear advocates.

    It’s a pity the “more serious thinkers on AGW” have absolutely no idea of what is involved in building power stations, nuclear or otherwise. Let me give you a hint. Waiting times for a turbine suitable for a reasonable-size conventional steam power station is now five to seven years. Make that seven to nine years for one suitable for a major conventional or nuclear station. That’s if we order them today.

    Pity the world is still warming

    According to whom? All the latest “peer-reviewed” papers I have read concede to cooling and blame it on China burning coal and/or volcanic activity. Or am I behind the times and that was last week’s excuse for why we’re actually cooling? Enlighten me, Andrew? Why are all your precious “climate scientists” churning out “peer reviewed” papers explaining the current cooling, if it isn’t?

    Do we have a well reviewed publication from well considered journal. That’s right – of course not.

    No, what we have is observable data – both of what has happened in the past, and what is happening now. I don’t need a “well reviewed publication from (a) well considered journal” to tell me that the historical and geological records demonstrate the cyclical nature of climate.

    And fancy Memory Vault having such a knowledgeable science teacher.

    Yes, I was very fortunate to be attending Tuart Hill Senior High School in Perth when the Federal government of the day made its first foray into federal funding of schools. Tuart Hill was the first high school to benefit by way of what was then probably the most modern and well-equipped science wing in Australia at the time – including most universities of the day.

    We even had our own specially-developed curriculum and text-books and maximum classes of sixteen – in 1967 -68.

    My physics teacher was an aging ex-catholic monk who had taught in universities all around the world, and my chemistry teacher was a young East German who had been shot escaping over the Berlin Wall. The Soviets were not keen on him defecting to the West because he was quite famous for having developed a whole new range of teaching aids for university-level chemistry studies.

    He still managed to accidentally blow up one of the lab benches with a stick of Sodium though.

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    Andrew Marven: If the more serious thinkers on AGW have moved on the next gen nukes why are we still building windmills and solar? I’m a nuke fan BTW. I’d like the public to get well used to the idea because I’m a spaceflight enthusiast and fan of Project Orion (the original 1950s version). Blows the greenies minds completely. Look it up.

    What continued warming? Do you mean the tortured data produced by the likes of nutjobs like Hansen? He’s just missing a sandwich board with “The end is nigh” written on it. In past times he’d be locked up for his and society’s safety. Or do you mean the output of outright frauds like Jones et al at UEA?

    We were taught in met school that climate at any place always changed over the 30 year odd time period. I think that might have been day one or two. The strong implication was that climatologists were met guys who didn’t have what it took to be operational forecasters. Probably true.

    Yeah I’m with Memory Vault. Observational data trumps theory and models any day. Sounds like you had a good High School science education, Memory Vault. Mine was a few years earlier at one of the better (allegedly) private schools in Perth. A couple of great physics and maths teachers which was about the only redeeming feature of that experience. I guess I could add I got a lifelong lack of respect for authority there.

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    Brett_McS

    Bulldust, 52. True, it is a shame that O’Farrell didn’t can the solar scam, but it’s set to expire anyway in a few years, it would be somewhat unfair to those already on it, and I imagine there were a lot of legal issues that were not apparent in opposition. So I can’t be too critical. The main thing is to let it die, and not introduce any new ones.

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    theRealUniverse

    Dear SBS,
    Thanks, not, for your tremendous BIASED (climate debate-not) documentaries you aired on Tuesdays at 8.30pm. Im sure we are now all enlightened on what we should believe. How righteous of you. We should be reminded of the errors of our ways.

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    TimM

    I got confused when I read this quote from Washer:
    “It will achieve nothing, cost the taxpayers money and I don’t know who brought that up and I don’t know who’d be silly enough to support it. ”

    Is he talking about the Royal Commission, or about the Carbon Tax?

    Oh, and I see Lindzen and Choi have got a new paper (a ‘make-over’ of their previous paper) published that uses observational data to show sensitivity to CO2 is significantly lower than IPCC models: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/16/new-paper-from-lindzen-and-choi-implies-that-the-models-are-exaggerating-climate-sensitivity/

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    TimM

    (… and then I see others have already posted re Lindzen and Choi…)

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    Joe Lalonde

    Jo,

    I have been to many tribunals.
    ALL look to see if the government or any worker representing the government made a mistake in following the policy.
    None were interested in issues, just procedures.

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    mc

    Penelope at #37

    Hey, I know you; you’re Lady Penelope from International Rescue of Thunderbirds fame!
    Quote. Lady Penelope is stylish and fashionable in almost every aspect of her life. Lady Penelope is a world renowned supermodel and celebrity and has appeared on the cover of Chic magazine. Her clothes are specially created for her by top fashion designers like Elaine Wickfern and François Lemaire, who named a revolutionary new fabric “Penelon” after her. She wears an exclusive perfume called “Soupçon de Péril”, mixed for her by Jacques Verre. Whenever Lady Penelope is in Paris she always drinks Pernod. Lady Penelope takes tea almost religiously and can communicate with International Rescue via her Regency tea pot.

    What an honor it is having you condescend to us your Ladyship; I have long been a great admirer!
    Top of the mornin to ya ma’am.

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    Tim

    Let’s forget the pretend commissions and enquiries. When do the treason-trials start?

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    Andrew Marven

    Cooling is it – http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/08/12/learning-from-bastardis-mistakes/#more-4079 – hmmmmm

    “Observational data trumps theory and models any day.” yes that’s why people see cycles everywhere when there are none ! LOL Perhaps should have done stats as well as science.

    The RC might need some maths help

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    memoryvault

    Andrew Marven @ 74

    “Observational data trumps theory and models any day.” yes that’s why people see cycles everywhere when there are none !

    Yeah – I mean one would have to be demented to be able to see a 30 year cyclical warming and cooling pattern in the actual data, wouldn’t they?

    http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1850/to:2011/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1970/to:2005/trend/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1940/to:1970/trend/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1910/to:1940/trend/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1880/to:1910/trend/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1850/to:1880/trend

    And yes, the warming and cooling cycles are trending up, as we move out of the last Little Ice Age and into the next Warming Period. Exactly as has happened in the past, and will do so again.

    You want to dispute the sunspot cycles “myth” next?
    Or are they considered an “urban legend” according to what passes for “science” with you guys?

    .

    It’s cyclical. Learn to live with it.

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    incoherent rambler

    Tim #73

    Let’s forget the pretend commissions and enquiries. When do the treason-trials start?

    In VIc Obtaining a financial advantage via deception and/or deceiving a RC would add up to same number of years.
    If it can be shown that someone has told untruths to extract money, it is “goodnight nurse”. I presume most states have a similar law. There is a long list of high profile public figures who must be a tad nervous about the change in (political) climate.

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    Penelope

    Thanks RU @68 for the heads up about the SBS doco.

    I just watched it and I must say it actually gives one a sense of hope. What the Chinese are doing with solar is truely astonishing. As I alluded to in my earlier post, the future belongs to those who are forward thinking enough to grasp what needs to be done ( and just imagine how much $ they’ll make!).

    The importance of having “can do’ types like Branson it seems are very important, they can energise people to move to the future and not as the Tea Baggers would have us move back to the dark ages. The clever “book learnin’” types can save us. The rednecks certainly wont.

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    pat

    wrong about the rest of australia, but “certain” about WA!!!

    17 Aug: Margaret River Mail: Mal Gill: Climate change report claims we’re drying up
    Climate commissioner and author of The Critical Decade, Western Australian Climate Change Impacts report, Professor Will Steffen, said: “Over the last 40 years we’ve watched the south west of the state become markedly drier with significant impacts for agriculture and urban water supplies.
    “We are more certain of the climate change risks for water resources for south-western WA than any other part of Australia,” he said. “The report shows that Western Australia’s economy, coastal infrastructure, biodiversity, mining infrastructure, and agriculture and tourism industries are all vulnerable to the impacts of a changing climate.
    “The risks have never been clearer and the case for action has never been more urgent,” Professor Steffen said. “This is the critical decade. The decisions we make this decade will determine the severity of climate change impacts our children and grandchildren suffer.”…
    The report stated that sea levels along the WA coast had risen 7.1-7.4mm a year since the early 1990s, about double the global average.
    Professor Steffan was due to be joined last night at Bunbury by other Climate Commission members for its first WA public forum.
    http://www.margaretrivermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/climate-change-report-claims-were-drying-up/2261755.aspx

    setting aside the manmade brisbane floods in january, responsibility for which may yet be decided by the Courts, i wonder how much people are prepared to see wasted on CAGW before they say enough is enough:

    15 Aug: USA Today: Wendy Koch: U.S. cities prepare to adapt to climate change
    As extreme weather continues to sweep the nation and Americans struggle to deal with heat waves and flooding, Holland says many are convinced they need to act. “We’re already seeing consequences of climate change,” he says, “and those will only intensify.”.
    Other projects are more tailored to climate change:
    •Seattle has developed a climate tool, now being tested, that allows users to input variables such as the location and timing of a proposed project to learn how it will be affected…
    •Chula Vista, in San Diego County, approved a climate plan in May that calls for more shade trees and “cool” or reflective roofs. Citing a study that sea levels — already up 6 inches since 1900 — will rise 12 to 18 inches more in the next 40 years, it also requires new waterfront projects account for this projected increase…etc
    Financing such projects is a challenge now for local governments, but not all needed changes require extra cash, says David Bragdon, director of long-term planning and sustainability for New York City…
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/environment/2011-08-15-cities-fight-climate-change_n.htm?csp=34news

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    pat

    Bolt is suggesting this move by Sinodinos is “useful” to Abbott!! and half the comments suggest this is a good thing!!

    17 Aug: Australian: EXCLUSIVE Imre Salusinszky: Former minister Helen Coonan to quit, opening way for Arthur Sinodinos to enter Senate
    Mr Sinodinos, 54, a senior executive with National Australia Bank, was overwhelmingly elected president of the Liberal Party’s NSW division last month.
    Party sources say there would be no conflict between Mr Sinodinos taking up a position in the Senate and continuing as NSW president.
    Highly respected across the party, Mr Sinodinos would be a walk-up start for shadow cabinet and would be seen as a potential future party leader.
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/former-minister-helen-coonan-to-quit-opening-way-for-arthur-sinodinos-to-enter-senate/story-fn59niix-1226116765854

    Wikipedia: Arthur Sinodinos
    Arthur Sinodinos AO… is an Australian banker and former public servant. He was the Chief of Staff to the former Australian prime minister John Howard from 1997 to 2006, after serving with him previously from 1987 to 1989 when he was opposition leader and rejoining him in 1995. As a close confidant of the prime minister, he was regarded as one of the most powerful people in the country. He left to become an investment banking director with the bank Goldman Sachs JBWere, and is currently the Regional General Manager, Business and Private Bank at National Australia Bank…
    March 2009, he was appointed Managing Director for Government, Education and Carbon Solutions, Institutional Banking, Business Banking Australia at the National Australia Bank.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Sinodinos

    11 Nov 2009: Brisbane Times blog: Melissa Fyfe: Banking on a different climate
    Some people in the environment lobby might be surprised to hear Arthur Sinodinos talking about climate change action. For a decade, Sinodinos served as John Howard’s chief-of-staff and was regularly nominated as one of the country’s most influential powerbrokers…
    Now Sinodinos is the National Australia Bank’s senior adviser on business banking and private wealth and last night he spoke about the challenges of climate change to a community forum in Brisbane. Sponsoring the Run For A Safe Climate was new territory for the bank, he said…
    “I was involved in a Government that put a proposal for Australia’s first emissions trading scheme forward as part of the Shergold report,” he told Climate Run…
    While his fellow Liberals bicker about whether climate change is actually happening, Sinodinos said NAB was acting on global warming for many reasons. “Gen Y, we find, are very picky about their employers, they want to know what they stand for,” he said. Customers also want the bank to act…
    It also makes business sense for the bank. NAB is shifting its main Victorian data centre on to a $6.5 million onsite gas-fired generator, which will take it almost completely off the brown-coal fired electricity grid. The move will reduce emissions by about 20,000 tonnes a year – enough electricity to power about 1400 households – and the bank will pocket $2million in cheaper power bills each year.
    The bank is also looking at the impacts of the emissions trading scheme on their customers, as well as the wider impacts of climate change. It is aiming to go carbon neutral next year, through offsets and efficiency, has made a 20 per cent cut on flights in a year and has increased its investments in renewable energy by 88 per cent…
    In Brisbane last night before he had to leave to catch a flight, Sinodinos heard half of the speech by John “Charlie” Veron, one of the world’s leading coral reef scientists. Veron recently addressed the Royal Society in Britain, where he was introduced by Sir David Attenborough. His speech can be seen here. Veron, who discovered and identified more than a quarter of the world’s coral species, has abandoned much of his field work to try and get the message out about climate change. He now says the current levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere – 387 parts per million – have committed the Great Barrier Reef to long term decline. Ocean acidification, he says, has “probably been retarding the growth of corals on the Great Barrier Reef for the last 10 years”.
    Veron, who is arguing that a “safe” climate for corals is less than 350 ppm – in other words, lower than today’s levels and much lower than the types of targets the Rudd Government is talking about…
    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opinion/blogs/climate-run/banking-on-a-different-climate-20091111-i9gg.html

    just great, just great…

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    Ron Embersen

    There may be plenty of scientific evidence for global warming, but since there is NO non scientific evidence for it I don’t go along with the alarmists. They can’t provide one iota of non scientific evidence and therefore us non scientists don’t have to accept anything these “experts” say.

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    memoryvault

    pat @ 79

    Thanks for that.

    So Sinodinos is from the same fold as Turnbull. God, Goldman breed them like flies, don’t they?

    Anybody this side of the fence who hasn’t cottoned that Andrew Bolt works for the same people as Turnbull, JuLIAR, Combet, Garnaut, and crowd, really hasn’t woken up to the real world. Bolt’s job is to sow dissent, something he does exceedingly well.

    Back in the days when I was in the public eye, I thought Ray Martin was one of the “good guys”.

    .

    Then I worked with him awhile.
    Interesting what you learn about people when it’s up close and personal.

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    Andrew Barnham

    Andrew Marven @74. Tamino’s post is interesting.

    He claims that he did a 10 data point set as 0.018x+rnorm(sd=0.1) and got a trend that looks quite like actual temperature data.

    I couldn’t resist. I wrote a quick R program to see if I could replicate this. To give it best possible chance to succeed I decided to relax criteria and not care if it looks like temp data for past 10 years and I accepted any -ve trend as successful replication of Tanimo’s results. I setup my program to run 1000 times, only ~ 50 results came up positive. 1 in 20 odds, Which is a p ~ 0.05. i.e. on the cusp of being statistically significant (if you accept the 0.018x+rnorm(sd=0.1) model). Tamino must be a very lucky guy, he should buy a scratchy at the news agent.

    Later Tamino claims he is able to subtract natural forcings and yield a AGW signal. One graph later there it magically appears : a beautiful line that to my eyeballs at least fits his 0.018x+rnorm(sd=0.1) model snugly. Now this, *this*, makes me sceptical. I’ll study his other web page where he explains how he achieves this to satisfy my curiosity later in the week when I get the chance. Bookmarked for now.

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    memoryvault

    Ron Emberson @ 80

    There may be plenty of scientific evidence for global warming, but since there is NO non scientific evidence for it I don’t go along with the alarmists. They can’t provide one iota of non scientific evidence and therefore us non scientists don’t have to accept anything these “experts” say.

    Very clever play on words Ron, now back to reality.

    Where is your “evidence” scientific or otherwise, that the recent warming period is not cyclical and natural, and as outlined in my posts above?

    Where is your “evidence” scientific or otherwise, that warming (if any) is going to be “catastrophic”. The history of humanity is a history of a battle against COLD, not WARM?

    Off you go. You represent the people saying something “new” and “catastrophic” is happening.

    Present the “evidence”.

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    memoryvault

    Ron Emberson @ 80

    PS – computer models of what “could”, “might”, “may” or “is possible” don’t count as “scientific evidence”.

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    Police_state

    Andrew Barnham @ 11:54 – sure you read that link ! Wow !

    Memory Vault – “The history of humanity is a history of a battle against COLD, not WARM?” really? – try reading up on the MWP at places other than Europe. What fanciful nonsense. In fact the MWP is your “dry run” for catastrophe ! LOL

    So present your statistical sunspot evidence – of course if it was that good you’d be making big dollars out of it. Sunspot cycles – one the the great sceptic scams.

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    Manfred

    yeah right – a committee (Royal Commission) to investigate a committee (IPCC). One only has to read McKitrick and McIntyre work to evaluate the basis of this travesty of science, economics and politics, the unholiest trinity to have ever come into existence.

    Global temps have declined since 1998, CO2 continues to rise – so what – it’ll help the biomass feed the pop. Climate variation lies within the norm. The trouble is that the Green eco-theologists can’t imagine a world without Gaia.

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    theRealUniverse

    Police_state: Theres NO AGW period!

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    cohenite

    I know Penny@77 is a troll but in respect of China they make 50% of the world’s solar panel but only keep 1% for internal use; their solar use is dwarfed by their investment in coal, nuclear and their preferred renewable hydro:

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/terry-mccranns-column/hsbc-research-reveals-chinas-coal-rush/story-e6frfig6-1225971769042

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    Damian Allen

    This “Arthur Sinodinos” sounds just like ANOTHER Goldman Sachs STOOGE aka malcom TURNCOAT turnbull !!

    He will certainly NOT be an asset to the Liberal Party or any future decent, honest Australian government !!!

    I am sick and tired of ahole TRAITORS !!!!!!!

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    memoryvault

    Police State @ 85

    try reading up on the MWP at places other than Europe.

    Actually, PS, according to YOUR side (Mann, Hanson, Jones et al) the MWP NEVER HAPPENED.
    Here’s a little link to a graph you might be familiar with:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hockey_stick_chart_ipcc_large.jpg

    Perhaps you can point out on it exactly where it portrays the MWP? The question is, PS since according to you cultists the MWP never happened, how could it have been “good”, “bad”, or even “indifferent”?

    That’s the trouble with making your “science” up “on the fly” so to speak.
    Eventually your inconsistencies come back to bite you on the bum.

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    Crakar24

    This is interesting

    From the Bolt blog

    Republican presidential candidate Rick Perry said Wednesday morning that he does not believe in global warming science and suggested it is grounded in scientists manipulating data for financial gain.
    The Texas governor was appearing at a New Hampshire breakfast event with business leaders Wednesday morning when he said “there are a substantial number of scientists who have manipulated data so that they will have dollars rolling into their projects.”

    Perry said scientists are coming forward almost daily to question “the original idea that man-made global warming is what is causing the climate to change.” He said the climate is changing but that it has been changing “ever since the earth was formed.”

    Perry added that “the issue of global warming has been politicized,” and argued that America should not spend billions of dollars addressing “a scientific theory that has not been proven, and from my perspective is more and more being put into question.”

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    Crakar24

    You reckon we have problems:

    This is a quote from a so called front running in the lead up to the presidential elections in the US, they are a front runner because they beat Ron Paul by 150 odd votes after they threw in free concert tickets. Here is what she said

    “She said, “We have to show that we are inextricably entwined, that as a nation we have been blessed because of our relationship with Israel, and if we reject Israel, then there is a curse that comes into play. And my husband and I are both Christians, and we believe very strongly the verse from Genesis [Genesis 12:3], we believe very strongly that nations also receive blessings as they bless Israel. It is a strong and beautiful principle.”

    Remember this is a potential future US president….even Palin had more sense…………..what hope do they have.

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    Bush bunny

    crakar24 @ 94 Who are you referring to? I missed out somewhere along
    the thread?

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    memoryvault

    Bush bunny @ 95

    Crakar is referring to Michele Bachmann. Another fruitloop Yank politician wannabe El Presidente.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Bachmann

    The most dangerous thing about Bachmann (from a long list) is that she believes the Book of Revelations is actually a literal documentary set in the future, and it’s up to America and its nuclear arsenal to bring it about.

    That way we will all be “saved”. Although from what, I’m not sure.

    I don’t think Bachmann is either.

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    Bush bunny

    Cohenite @88. Agreed. Evergreen one of America’s largest solar panel manufacturers, has just gone bankrupt. They moved to China to cut costs and 800 lost their jobs in the US because of this move. They received $58 million from State government subsidies and tax relief schemes. Now their State government wants to recover $21 million of it.

    Of course Evergreen are blaming the Chinese. Interesting when Obama addressed during his State of the Nation in 2009 (I think) its on UTube, but he said he wanted to keep the US up with Europe and China investing in clean energy, including off shore drilling, nuclear and solar panels manufacturing. That was before the BP great oil spill?

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    Bush bunny

    Thanks Memory vault – I think I will give Rick Perry a go if I was American. They reckon he is also a bible puncher, but American’s are
    very much into their president’s looking and sounding like true Christians.

    I just hope he picks a good VC. Not Sarah Palin for starters who believes humans walked with dinosaurs – and survived?

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    Bush bunny

    WA have also wrestled with several other Fed government suggestions.
    They will raise mining royalties. Fed response was ‘we’ll remove some of your funding’. They will separate from the Commonwealth if they go republic. And I reckon Gina Hancock will be funding this Royal Commission or pushing for it. Donna you agree?

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    Crakar24 @ 94

    God said to Abram, Genesis 12:3, “And I will bless those who bless you,and curse the one who depises you,and in you shall all the families of the earth be blessed.”

    It can’t refer to Israel because the promise was made only to Abram who later on became Abraham of whom they say they are descended.

    Amongst many others,Abraham was also the father of the Arab nations, Genesis 21:20.

    The Arabs would strongly disagree with the assertion “we believe very strongly that nations also receive blessings as they bless Israel.”

    Ive heard one politician who is infatuated with 747′s refer to his Christian god as She.

    And people tell jokes about the dumb Irish.

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    Tel

    Yeah – I mean one would have to be demented to be able to see a 30 year cyclical warming and cooling pattern in the actual data, wouldn’t they?

    Just for reference, it’s called the Bruckner cycle. The original estimate of the period was 35 years and it shows up in various places including silt deposits.

    Climatology has implicitly accepted the Brucknet cycle as the basis for using a 30 year average as a rather arbitrary mechanism to isolate “climate” from “weather” (other than when it suits them not to do so for propaganda reasons, such as the recent Northern Hemisphere heatwave).

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    Bush bunny

    Those Convoy of No Confidence videos are rolling in on You Tube.

    I’ve circulated them to various overseas blogs. Nite everyone
    keep harping on the harpies in Canberra. LOL

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    Sceptical Sam

    Ron Embersen @ 80

    Oh do hurry up Ronnie boy and answer memoryvault’s challenge @ 83.

    Has the cat got your tongue?

    Ditto police state @ 85 and mv’s challenge @ 90.

    We’re reading and waiting.

    Go the convoy.

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    John Brookes

    We still need the ABC. Without the ABC we would not have Kath & Kim.

    Still, its hardly surprising that Alan Jones listeners don’t like the ABC.

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