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The Convoy of no confidence is amassing towards Canberra

Something beautiful is unfolding. From all over Australia, people whose businesses and jobs are being driven into the ground by spectacular government mismanagement are gathering to drive from the corners of the continent to converge on Canberra to demand an election.

Convoy of No Confidence

Cars, utes and semitrailers are descending on Canberra from all over the country

A large map for printing and the media CONVOY JPG (600kb) or CONVOY TIF (2.6Mb)

The productive class may not have easy rent-a-crowds for rallies and chirpy letter campaigns, but they have something that the keen teens do not — they have capital assets — in this case, assets that move.

When it’s obvious money and choices are being poured down a bottomless well, people are prepared to go that extra mile, or in this case the extra 4,000.*

It started with Mick Pattel –  a livestock transporter from North West Queensland — who suffered a 50 percent drop in business when the Federal Government banned live exports to Indonesia. According to Beef Central he declared that the time has come for a re-election. The owner/driver from Richmond, who also serves as president of the National Road Freighters Association, started planning a protest convoy to drive from northern Australia to the lawns of Parliament House in August.

“He hopes to generate enough support and media attention via the “vote of no confidence” convoy to convince the Governor General to dissolve the parliament or to convince Julia Gillard to go back to the polls. “

The central planning for the Convoy is at Just Grounds, though facebook sites have sprung up to feed into it too. Organisers appear to have been astounded by the demand and with so many cars and trucks wanting to join up they are changing plans, adding convoys, and even splitting some convoys to cover different routes. Some people are travelling out to the far reaches so they can join the convoys from the start.

For preliminary dates: See below.

Convoy number 1. Please put BROWN balloon /streamers to show your convoy.

Peter Whytcross is your leader 0427025591

16th of August Port Hedland WA to Halls Creek WA

17th August Halls Creek WA to Katherine NT

Please note People from Darwin are to travel down to Katherine this day 17th of August.

18th Katherine NT to Camooweal Qld (Mt Isa has been dropped for Camooweal).

19th Camooweal Qld to Blackall Qld

20th Blackall Qld to Bourke NSW

21st August Bourke NSW to Hall NSW

22nd August Hall NSW to Canberra

Convoy number 2.Please put PINK balloon/ streamers to show your convoy.

Darryl  Pederson 0418450641

18th August Atherton /Cairns Qld to Charters Towers via T/ville Qld

19th August Charters Towers  Qld to Injune Qld

20th August Injune Qld to Coonamble NSW

21st August Coonamble Qld to Murrumbateman NSW

22nd August Murrumbateman NSW to Canberra

Convoy number 3. Please put LIGHT BLUE balloon/ streamers to show your convoy.

Tony  Hopkins 0419600560

20th August Rockhampton Qld to Goondiwindi Qld

21st August Goondiwindi Qld to Yass / via Dubbo NSW

22nd August Yass NSW to Canberra

Convoys from Brisbane. Please note there are 2.


Brisbane Convoy 4 Please put Yellow balloon /streamers to show your convoy.

Russ Martin is your leader 0428370098

20th August Brisbane / Rocklea Qld  to Tamworth NSW (Via Warwick)

21st August Tamworth NSW to Coonabarabran to Dubbo to Yass NSW

22nd August Yass NSW to Canberra

Brisbane Convoy 5 Please put WHITE balloon /streamers to show your convoy.

Your leader is Ken Wilkie 0427742554

20th August Brisbane Qld to Wyong (Beresfield ) NSW

21st August Wyong / Beresfield feed in NSW to running through Sydney to Goulburn.

22nd August Goulburn to Canberra

Convoy number 6. Please put ORANGE balloon/ streamers to show your convoy.

Your leaders are the legendary Matt Thompson 0427 815 595 and Janet Thompson 0417 815 595

18th August Perth WA to Norseman WA

19th Norseman WA to Penong WA

20th Penong SA to  Renmark SA

21th August Renmark SA to Coolac NSW

22nd Coolac NSW to Canberra

Convoy number 7.Please put PURPLE balloon / streamers to show your convoy.

Convoy leader to be announced

20th August, Midday start, Adelaide to Mildura Vic

21st Mildura Vic  to Harden (via Griffith / Temora)

22nd Harden into Canberra

Convoy number 8.Please put RED balloon /streamers to show your convoy.

Your Convoy leader Mr Noel  Porter 0427285216

21st August Colac  Vic to Coolac NSW (via Geelong / Melbourne / Albury)

22nd Coolac NSW to Canberra.

Convoy number 9. Your colour is GREY

Your convoy leader to be announced.

21st August Warragul Vic to Cooma (via Orbost /Bombala)

22nd Cooma to Canberra

Convoy number 10. Please put Black balloon / streamers to show your convoy.

Your Convoy leader to be announced.

21st August Mildura Vic to Harden NSW via Griffith / Temora

22nd Harden NSW to Canberra

Convoy number 11. Please put DARK BLUE balloon / streamers to show your convoy.

Your Convoy leader is Rick  Finning. 0428510101

21st August Bendigo to Harden (via Echuca / Jerilderie / Wagga / Junee)

22nd Harden to Canberra

———————————————————————————

See Just Grounds for the details.

MAP: Thanks to MapsGet for the map image I added the paths too.

* It would be 5,000-6,000 km from Port Hedland to Canberra. That’s some serious driving.

H/t to Cate, Peggy, Peter, Gregory and others :-)

UPDATE #1:  Unprecedented Troll attack! They so don’t want this to become “big”

The comments have been hit by an unprecedented troll attack of anonymous people who compulsively abuse the English language and throw names. The message is loud and clear that people are noticing the convoy protest and are doing what they can to stop it going viral.  They are very afraid this convoy will romp across Australia. The organizers are more enthused than ever at the response! See Cate S #51, #236 and others. And 57 Tweets too. Facebook(!!) over 400 “likes”.

UPDATE #2 From comment #722 (Oh my. What a discussion…)

For those wishing to rsvp for the Convoy on here please email tullochard@bigpond.com
Subject Line – Convoy RSVP
Include, name, convoy number, number of persons and type of vehicle please.
This is ONLY rsvp email – as all information is on the justgroundsonline.com website – and routes are above here on Jo’s FANTASTIC discussion! :)
People – it IS huge – we need rsvp’s now for traffic control with the AFP assistance.
Thank you for your co-operation!
Cheers Cate :)

All Posts about the Convoy of No Confidence.

Update #3: I’ve moved the first 1000 comments to an overflow thread next to this one.

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Rating: 5.5/10 (4 votes cast)
The Convoy of no confidence is amassing towards Canberra, 5.5 out of 10 based on 4 ratings

Tiny Url for this post: http://tinyurl.com/3cw5ham

532 comments to The Convoy of no confidence is amassing towards Canberra

  • #
    Siliggy

    News spreads fast this search yesterday got 12100 hits now 20400:
    Search link

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  • #
    BobC

    Addendum to post #585:

    Unlike many of the pro-AGW blogs, Nova is willing to let anyone criticize the skeptic thrust of the blog, as long as they follow some simple rules of civil behavior that she clearly outlines in the “guide to comments”.

    If that’s too much of a burden to bear, then leave.

    00

  • #
    BobC

    P. Dragone (@708):
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:46 am

    I see not one referenced fact.

    Oh, I’m sorry — you need clickable references. I Don’t have the time, but here’s a Google tutorial that might help you.

    00

  • #
    Joe V.

    Ben @ 832
    Oh Sorry Ben,
    I thought everyone following the debate knew, that Get Up had Bought Up nearly half the tickets to Monckton’s Press Club event.
    I hope they managed to resell them all, thereby funding Monckton’s Tour, to the tune of several Thousand Dollars. That was nice of them.

    00

  • #
    Joe V.

    Everyone should hear Cate’s Broadcast to the Nation, @ 913.

    Had some trouble getting these players to play on iPhone.
    This direct link works fine though:-
    http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2011/08/cpt_20110808_1641.mp3

    Look out for the advice to any aspiring Prime Ministers (in the last few minutes ), the Media, & Federal Pollies in general.

    It’s a return to reality for the nations lost sheep, & inspirational for those despairing of ever seeing such leadership again.
    :-)

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    It’s the small things in life…….I claim the first 1000 post at Jo Nova!

    00

  • #
    Maxine

    Wendy and Baldrick: I clearly said respect for the position.

    For Baldrick—I repeat we are not getting a carbon tax, OK?

    00

  • #
    Maxine

    Wendee, I think Krugman knows what is happening in his country and furthermore working for the NY Times he would see a lot of reports come in. It may be a secondary source but it is not invalid because of that.

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  • #

    Ben:
    August 11th, 2011 at 11:14 pm
    Mark D @ 970

    What does the D stand for Mark? Not ‘Dunce’ perhaps?

    More ad hominems. I guess you have been bested, but are not man enough to admit you know not.

    00

  • #
    Wendy

    Maxine @ 1003
    I repeat, just because he “says” something is happening does not make it so. YOU made the assertion, so back it up! C’mon Maxine, surely you being sooooooooooooooooo smart can do such a simple task.

    00

  • #
    The Black Adder

    I have a Cunning Plan Maxine,

    You stop calling me Baldrick!

    and I’ll stop calling you a silly, insignificant, get-up troll!!

    Roll on the Convoy and roll on into the 1000′s. Congrats Mark D.

    00

  • #

    Maxine:
    August 11th, 2011 at 11:18 pm
    The Reagan tax cuts did not cause more tax to be paid.

    Why lie? Figures for you so you can see you are wrong: http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/revenue_history

    The recovery from the recession ensured the tax receipts rose.

    The recession did not last 20 years. So the US was still recovering in 1992? 1996? Please, peddle your lies elsewhere. You are flat wrong, and the figures prove it.

    00

  • #

    Maxine:
    August 11th, 2011 at 11:31 pm
    Printing money only creates inflation if there is already a healthy level of demand in the private sector. Government creates money by spending it.

    printing money always creates inflation. if you have more of a thing, its value is less. That is why lead is not worth as much as gold. Econ 101. Please take a course.

    00

  • #

    Maxine:
    August 11th, 2011 at 11:42 pm
    BTW Phil

    I have been called stupid, ignorant etc. I wouldn’t accuse others of ad homs if I were you!

    I will call them as I see them. just because a dog pees on your rug, does not mean you should pea in his bedding.

    00

  • #

    Maxine:
    August 11th, 2011 at 11:47 pm
    BTW the govt can create.

    One of the public works in the US was the building of the interstate routes. They carry a shitload of commercial/industrial traffic.

    So it created land? No, what it did do is found here:

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union,
    establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common
    defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the
    United States of America.

    00

  • #

    Maxine:
    August 11th, 2011 at 11:49 pm
    Krugman is employed by the NYT not the US TReasury or White House. D’uh!

    Before that he was employed by……….ENRON! Like he knows how to run an economy! No wonder the US is bankrupt!

    00

  • #
    Maxine

    Phil, you are wrong. There is no fixed supply of money like there is of lead or gold so spending in a recession doesn’t increase the money available. We are talking about creating demand so the economy keeps going, as the economy picks up the govt runs surpluses which remove money from the economy, preventing the boom from accelerating too fast.

    Public finance is not like household finance!

    00

  • #

    Wendy:
    August 12th, 2011 at 12:13 am
    (or should I say “bless your heart”)

    A true southern lady!

    00

  • #
    Maxine

    Phil, the US economy was recovering from a recession when Reagan was elected President, hence the increase in tax receipts.

    00

  • #

    Maxine:
    August 12th, 2011 at 12:47 am
    Wendee, I think Krugman knows what is happening in his country and furthermore working for the NY Times he would see a lot of reports come in. It may be a secondary source but it is not invalid because of that.

    Well, that shows you know less than he does, and he knows precious little (other than how to throw insults). Krugman is a failure, and that is why he writes for the times.

    00

  • #

    Maxine:
    August 12th, 2011 at 1:03 am
    Phil, the US economy was recovering from a recession when Reagan was elected President, hence the increase in tax receipts.

    Wrong again! The recovery happened well after he was elected. Do you get anything right?

    00

  • #

    Maxine:
    August 12th, 2011 at 1:01 am
    Phil, you are wrong. There is no fixed supply of money like there is of lead or gold so spending in a recession doesn’t increase the money available. We are talking about creating demand so the economy keeps going, as the economy picks up the govt runs surpluses which remove money from the economy, preventing the boom from accelerating too fast.

    There is no fixed supply of WEALTH. The amount of money should be determined by the former. You are wrong again. This is getting monotonous. Please take Econ 101. Until that time, no one need bother discussing the economics with you since you are hopelessly lost about the subject.

    00

  • #
    Maxine

    Phil, the US economy was recovering from a recession when Reagan was elected President, hence the increase in tax receipts.

    Was Krugman the CEO or had a management position in ENRON? Nice strawman tho!

    Call them like you see them? Mind if I do the same you rude, loudmouthed ignoramus?

    Baldrick—stop acting like Baldrick then! I have been called worse without squealing you big girls blouse!

    Wendee I have given you a good secondary source. Search around some of the US papers and you will come across plenty of other examples.

    00

  • #
    P. Dragone

    Ben, Maxine, Adam,
    I can’t believe you are still here, I gave up days ago. An equine corpse won’t respond to the whip, remember!

    IMO, you are arguing with those for whom it is psychologically impossible to take in the information you are presenting. Most people can be confronted with new information or ideas and take it in, evaluate it, and make a decision on it.

    By the time you have got this far down this thread you are dealing with the gate-keepers of ideas. It is as if they have this jigsaw picture in their minds and the only packets they let in are the ones that completes their own picture. Everything else doesn’t make it past the boom-gates.

    Of course we will be accused of the same. For myself, I keep hoping some-one will disprove AGW. I do not want it to be true. However, nothing presented ever does this, and on evaluation, the anti-AGW information turns out to be inadequate. So even though I have an open mind on the issue, there is nothing which overturns the science of AGW. (When Monkton is quoted, you know it’s junk.)

    Economics is the same, I can post that Beautiful Set of Numbers that shows we are doing well, and no-one here will believe it. It does not fit their narrative.

    So Ben, Maxine and Adam, I admire your passion and stamina, even though you be tilting at windmills.

    Good Luck.

    00

  • #
    Maxine

    If the private sector stops investing (usually after some crisis or popping of a speculative bubble the govt should step in and spend on projects to prevent unemployment soaring. Once unemployment is over 6% it takes a long time before it is down to more normal levels. Any attempt to cut spending inevitably makes the recession/depression worse.

    Thus it was in the 1930s, thus it is in the US/UK/Greece/Ireland now.

    00

  • #
    Maxine

    Here there be dragons, well one Dragone anyway. The rest are pussycats, not overblessed with brains it is true, to say their ideas are ossified is an understatement. But it is fun!

    I enjoyed pointing out that our plucky PM would not bother getting out the way of the convoy of the innocents, instead she would stand her ground and the convoy would have to go around her. She would too!

    00

  • #

    Maxine:
    August 12th, 2011 at 1:08 am
    Phil, the US economy was recovering from a recession when Reagan was elected President, hence the increase in tax receipts.

    Again, you are WRONG. it was not recovering when he was elected. And the receipts, once the recovery was underway, exceeded receipts prior to the recession! just as it did for JFK. Please stop showing off your ignorance.

    Krugman was a consultant. What is a strawman about pointing out he is an incompetent boob that was involved with one of the largest failures in US history? You brought him into this discussion like he was some type of guru. I merely pointed out he is not. your strawman I guess.

    00

  • #

    P. Dragone:
    August 12th, 2011 at 1:10 am
    Ben, Maxine, Adam,
    I can’t believe you are still here, I gave up days ago. An equine corpse won’t respond to the whip, remember!

    And BS does not fly with the well informed. So you lost.

    10

  • #
    BobC

    Maxine (@975):
    August 11th, 2011 at 11:18 pm
    The Reagan tax cuts did not cause more tax to be paid. The recovery from the recession ensured the tax receipts rose.

    Many people would argue that the tax cuts helped the economy to recover, thus were instrumental in causing tax receipts rising. Your parsing of the causal chain is reminiscent of a Nasrudin joke.

    Reagan was the start of a rightwing movement that caused the present problems.

    What, you never head of Barry Goldwater? (And I guess all those Liberals who used government leverage to incourage reckless loans for home ownership get a pass.)

    The Laffer curve doesn’t really exist, might work for minor adjustments to rates.

    The existance of the Laffer Curve is guarenteed by the Extreme Value Theorem:

    1) A tax rate of 0% produces no tax revenue — by definition.
    2) A tax rate of 100% also produces no tax revenue since it extinguishes all economic activity.
    3) Since intermediate tax rates do produce revenue, it is a consequence of the extreme value theorem that there must be at least one rate that produces the most revenue.

    The problem with the Laffer Curve is not its existence — its existence is obvious.

    The problem with the Laffer Curve is knowing where you are on it.

    00

  • #
    BobC

    P. Dragone (@1019):

    Classic example of psychological projection.

    A significant number of people on this blog are scientists, engineers, inventors, or entrepreneurs, and deal with new information on a regular basis. We also have experience evaluating claims of others, where being right matters. I haven’t seen anything new from you — you simply quote chapter and verse from the Church of Climatology.

    00

  • #
    Wendy

    Maxine @ 1018

    Wendee I have given you a good secondary source. Search around some of the US papers and you will come across plenty of other examples.

    an OP-ED piece is NOT a “good secondary source” of anything. It’s an OPINION piece and only an OPINION piece.
    Again, YOU made the assertion, prove it.

    00

  • #
    BobC

    Actually, I have seen something new from P. Dragone: His veiled claims that resistance to AGW “authority” is racist. I guess (in his crowd) if you can’t argue the data, you imply that people are racist.

    Must have been confusing to him when we didn’t immediately fall over.

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    P dragmedown: @ 1019

    By the time you have got this far down this thread you are dealing with the gate-keepers of ideas. It is as if they have this jigsaw picture in their minds and the only packets they let in are the ones that completes their own picture. Everything else doesn’t make it past the boom-gates.

    Pot-kettle syndrome

    I can post that Beautiful Set of Numbers that shows we are doing well, and no-one here will believe it. It does not fit their narrative.

    If you are talking about the USA I don’t recall you posting such economic “numbers”. If you are talking about AU, you may have posted such numbers but you miss the point about the Convoy. Those Convoy members are desperately trying to KEEP your Beautiful Numbers by causing the defeat of the carbon tax.

    Actually you didn’t miss the point you don’t believe the point therefore you fit in every respect your post at 1019:

    For you it is psychologically impossible to take in the information you are presented. Most people can be confronted with new information or ideas and take it in, evaluate it, and make a decision on it but you cannot.

    Of course this is redundant with what BobC has determined, (Classic example of psychological projection) I just thought you needed it explained again on the hope it sinks in.

    You might want to see a professional…..

    00

  • #
    Maxine

    Oh dear. A couple of leaks from the shadow cabinet:
    Entire government departments on line as Abbott seeks $70bn in savings

    THE Coalition could shut down entire government departments as its searches for $70 billion in budget savings to fund promises for the next election, including up to $8bn in cuts to personal tax.

    Treasury spokesman Joe Hockey has told The Australian he is leading an opposition razor gang blitz on “big government”, guaranteeing to deliver the budget to surplus in 2012-13 while also slashing tax collections and government spending.

    As Wayne Swan warned of threats to basic services such as health and education, the Seven Network reported that leaked opposition documents showed the Coalition planned to slice $70bn from Labor programs.

    The documents said the cuts were needed to fund $37bn in existing promises and up to $8bn in tax cuts. They would make up for revenue it would forgo by dumping the planned carbon tax and mineral resources rent tax.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/entire-government-departments-on-line-as-abbott-seeks-70bn-in-savings/story-fn59niix-1226113390758

    Don’t know about you, but I will not be taking a chance on these no hopers to be able to govern!

    That $8bn in tax cuts, I wonder who they will go to, the poor who would spend them and generate economic activity? Somehow I doubt that.

    00

  • #
    Maxine

    The beautiful[snip] said

    [ed]

    00

  • #
    Maxine

    Wend[y] [ED] here is an article showing the desperate state that state and local govts in the US are in:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124545575892632961.html

    That was in 2009. Don’t think things have become better there, do you? Every job cut is one taxpayer less.

    00

  • #
    Wendy

    Hey Maxi
    I still don’t see ANYTHING about street lights being cut off or roads put back to gravel. What’s the matter? Can’t find any documentation of your claims???

    00

  • #

    YouTube:

    “Fall of the Republic HQ full length version” by Alex Jones

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v-VebOTc-7shU&NR=1&feature=fvwp

    “This film reveals the architecture of the New World Order and what the power elite have in store for humanity.More importantly it communicates how We The People can take control of our government, turn the criminal tide and bring the tyrants to justice”.

    00

  • #
    Shane

    I will be looking at the news next week as the trucks noisily honk their way into Canberra, with their misspelt, offensive banners if it is anything like the protests of late. Seeing a group of people with some legitimate concerns that affect their lives. I suppose there has always been the divide between the city and bush, but I suspect there is another divide that is ever widening as the world tries to move on in a positive way.

    00

  • #
    Ben

    Kevin Moore

    Oh dear, now we are into more of the rabid right wing conspiracy theory garbage with Alex Jones.

    Kev, we have enough such domestic nutters here. Please keep yours back in the US, preferably sedated or in a padded cell.

    00

  • #

    Bob C @1024, I would add to your excellent remarks that we do not know the exact shape of the curve either. The point at which each individual will cut back on his marginal production due to a higher proportion of it going to tax differs from one individual to the next. Interesting stuff.

    I was enthralled when my university economics prof (Dr. Jim Fain…he was lots of fun!) introduced us to the Laffer Curve. Art Laffer’s comments this week were spot on!

    Cheers,
    Janet

    00

  • #
    James Lund

    This weak excuse for a demonstration. Yes it will cause disruption to Canberra will get you media attention, but highlight you as being immature.

    Have you thought about writing letters to your MP? They do read the letters and take them seriously. But no, probably not, you want to be seen as the Aussie battlers who are hard done by.

    We are a democracy, Labour is in power, they were voted in by the people, there will be another election in the future. Vote then.

    00

  • #

    Not Ben Chifley @ 1035

    Ben, are you one of those mindless rent-a-crowd low-lifes who paint the worst picture possible for peaceful protesters by chucking garbage bins and rocks through shop windows while the camera’s are rolling and the police stand back?

    I bet you are!

    Here is another documentary:

    Http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO24XmP1c5E

    “Invisible Empire A New World Order Defined Full” by Alex Jones

    00

  • #
    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 1037

    Here is another documentary:

    Http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO24XmP1c5E

    “Invisible Empire A New World Order Defined Full” by Alex Jones

    You got it a bit wrong there Kevin. Please re-classify to “Fantasy”. Documentaries deal in facts.

    00

  • #
    mullumhillbilly

    The competition is hereby declared open for anyone to have the last word on Jo’s longest blog thread. All and any inanities and quibbles accepted, it seems.

    00

  • #
    Maxine

    Hmmm the shadow cabinet has leaked like a sieve. They have a $70Bn blackhole and are not apologising.

    From his permanently reserved table at Canberra KFC Joe Hockey chund, errrr thundered they will fund that by cutting waste. Joe, just try cutting your waist a bit eh?

    No, what they will do is raise the GST to 20%. Alas poor retail, I knew it well.

    00

  • #
    mullumhillbilly

    BobC, after reading back through some of the latest dozens of this thread, I humbly retract any inference that your comments fall under said I&Q.

    00

  • #
    Cate S

    Only a few more days to go – Congratulations Jo – 1039 comments before this one! I guess a milestone for you – might be time to hit the “donate” button i think, for a few quid – i think she has earned it on this thread!
    So – ready set go – the final countdown is on – Tuesday the 16th is ignition date for a single truck’s engine … and so it begins.
    The success has already been achieved – now the physical petition is to be delivered for 2 days…then we all return home, and hope that the Parliament House windows are transparent to see good people there, peacefully – united under the Australian Flag. Forever the Peoples Convoy – and act accordingly.

    00

  • #

    Maxine:
    August 12th, 2011 at 10:12 am

    Some people are stuck in the past. That article is 2 years old. Granted the states and localities have had a rough ride, no one is denying it. But almost all have turned things around in the last 2 years through cuts. How many have raised taxes? I do not have the emperical number on that, but less than 5 is a safe bet.

    00

  • #
    Dave

    CATE – well done!

    “Go You Good Thing”

    Quoting the words of a famous ex Australian Wallaby

    Also need a video of the 1st Truck ignition start!
    Put it on You Tube after Jonova – it’ll go great.

    00

  • #
    Maxine

    Hardly any raised taxes but they are still cutting spending.

    If instead of QE2 they had given money to get the states out of their deficit and given some extra funding for pubic works the US would now be well out of recession, unemployment would be well down, tax receipt well up and the deficit diminishing rapidly.

    Instead we got QE2, the states are struggling on and unemployment is increasing if anything. Now the flat earth Tea [snip] want to cut spending—so, like in the 1930s, like Greece, Ireland and the UK now spending will be cut, unemployment will increase as will dole payments etc and tax receipts will plummet leading to more spending cuts etc.

    Luckily here not even the Libs are that stupid.

    00

  • #

    Maxine:
    August 12th, 2011 at 10:35 pm

    maxine, your economic ignorance is appalling. Minting money only causes inflation which is a tax on every man, woman and child (and hits the poor the hardest). The solution is to stop taxing and spending, and get out of the way for the private sector to do its job. When those simple rules are followed, economies boom! When they do not….well we saw Obamanomics and the QEs and their effect.

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    Joe V

    Ben ,
    I must say I like your nice distinctive Avatar.

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    Joe V

    Cate S. @1043.
    Well done Cate, and all who are making The Convoy the huge success that it has become.
    It’s interesting to compare what’s happening in Aus.,with what’s going on in England.
    It shows Australia still has a soul and there is yet time to save it from succumbing to global servitude, but only if the pollies can ‘lift their game’, and be kept accountable.
    Congrats. to Mark D. @ #1000 too, for catching the bouquet.

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    Rob Moore

    What a good site this is!! It would be great if you and David could get over as I would love to meet you-Jo.

    Just put this comment of the world according to Rob on justgrounds and it is relevant here as well.

    The frustrating thing is that it is not too late if we all wake up and surgically remove the cancer before it kills us- we can become the “lucky” country once again.

    The two party compulsory system is just a shop front for all the faceless NGO’s and opportunists that have huge funds to lobby and get control of what they want on our shores. We (the voters) get suckered into the destraction of the political game while the string pullers never take a backward step for decades in a row.

    The PEOPLE have to take on the public service. Anyone presently serving the public as in Nurses police ,defence should get a pay rise and anyone who is pushing paper around and a job that fails the test of “is it serving the PUBLIC”- should be retrained or left to unemployment.

    Everyone should be entitled to a living and job somewhere but when the fleas kill the dog- there has to be major surgery in every Dept both State and Federal. Until this happens- it is almost irrelevant as to which of the contrived two party straight jacket is in office.

    EG The whole of the UN inspired Climate Change Industry in Australian is a multi Billion dollar cost. (Flannery -just a bull artist salesman getting 180K for each of the next 5 years, $12 M in adds for one week on TV)…………all of which is a proven Tax and Power Hoax.

    Meanwhile -Treasury is apparenty so broke that we have to have a flood LEVY to fix the damage, a lot of which was there well before the floods.

    Do we have to gallop over the cliff like all the lemmings in Europe shouting like Wayne Swan does about how much better than the rest we are ….. or do we just get some competant people with some balance and experience and most importantly a bit of National pride as opposed to selling out stuffing their own bank -saying stuff everyone else . (Turnbull springs to mind there!)

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    Maxine

    Rob, sometime, read some real economics instead of idiots-with-an-agenda like Bolt, McCrann and Akerman.

    Crack open a couple of books.

    If you have a garden have a wander in it and reflect on the damage CC is already inflicting on it. Look at the BoM website and the Met Office in the UK.

    Don’t let people use you like a chess piece!

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    Hey, Maxine, sometime, read some real economics instead of idiots-with-an-agenda like Garnaut and Stern.

    Crack open a couple of books like those of Ludwig von Mises, Bob Carter, Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Ian Plimer, Murray Rothbard, Fred Singer, Henry Hazlitt, Vaclav Klaus, and Joseph Schumpeter.

    If you have a garden have a wander in it and reflect on how CO2 makes it grow and flourish. Ignore the corrupt BoM website and the Met Office in the UK.

    Don’t let people use you like a chess piece!

    ;-) See, I can do it too! hehe

    Cheers,
    Janet

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    Wendy

    Maxine
    re: the OP ED piece by Krugman….here’s a rebuttal to another one of his pieces. Perhaps your “hero” isn’t “all that”.
    Longhorns 17, Badgers 1

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    There will be no gardens growing under a government Julia Gillard leads.

    “We want to get rid of carbon [dioxide] pollution in the atmosphere.” says Julia.

    The optimum level of Co2 in the atmosphere say the watermelons is zilch.

    Green will turn brown,procreation will cease.

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    Well now that we know yer a commin we will be outa town wen yer a gits here.

    Adrian

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    Rob Moore

    Hello Maxine ,
    Thanks for the advice. I haven’t cracked open the books since I was at Qld Uni studying Engineering many years ago.(didn’t get through-beer,nurses,not enough study).

    Re Economics. Results are what counts and since I would be in the elite 1% of Australians that don’t owe a cent to anyone inspite of droughts ,dismal terms of trade and the many things that we have to overcome to break even. Over 30 years of slowly building and never taking the easy options we have got to this point. We don’t live in a McMansion and I still own the first new car that I ever bought (13year old Commodore that has probably hit 50 roos plus pigs and emus) and see no need to replace it yet.

    All of the naughties were a dry nightmare. It was tough for many but it was just a natural cycle which was inevitably broken with a flood. All you people in the green movements would have had it that all the evil irrigators were depriving the Murray Darling and that with my place here looking like Mars with trees dying- that I was just another overstocking greedy landowner wrecking my asset etc. WRONG- nature turned the tap off and sure enough it came back on and the place looks wonderful with abundant everything plus millions of tree seedlings germinated.

    Surely an educated person could not beleive that a tax on CO2 will have any effect on anything accept our wallet!!!????

    Re my garden. It is 42000acres and has been in our family since 1926 and it is presently 10 times more productive with much more wildlife due to the extra water and fodder than it was when I was a kid – and I am proud of that fact.

    I don’t need to be told by any F..w.t politician or greenie from the suburbs how to run my place -thankyou very much!

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    Mark

    Maxine #1051

    You mean the same Met Office that around 2000 told its fellow Britons that their kiddies would grow up never having seen snow?

    Or the same Met Office that employs idiots who make statements like this?

    “People underestimate the power of models. Observational evidence is not very useful,”… “Our approach is not entirely empirical.”
    UKMet’s principle research scientist John Mitchell:

    Or the same Met Office that recently forecast a mild winter. Except that the weather wasn’t listening and made fools of them with yet another severe winter? They then made things worse by trying to pretend that they really meant the opposite.

    How about NIWA in New Zealand being forced during a court case to repudiate its (false) temperature records?

    That’s not to mention the fudging that our own BoM has engaged in.

    You really listen to these clowns, Maxine?

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    Ben

    Maxine

    Why do you bother?

    Don’t you know that it is all a giant conspiracy that involves CSIRO, Bureau of Meteorology, Met Office in UK, most (if not all) reputable scientific bodies in the world etc.

    And against this vast conspiracy stands a few brave souls such as the Loopy Lord Monkton, Alan Jones and the scientific genius Jo Nova.

    To scientifically prove their position they will lead a convoy of the crazed and clueless to Canberra.

    Mind boggling!

    This site is only suitable for some comic relief from the real world.

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    Mark

    Gee Ben, you know you could always just bugger off, don’t you?

    Strange, you’ve gone to the trouble of creating an avatar but even it is not real. Just like your arguments.

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    matilda

    A Brisbane businessman will be erecting a billboard on Settlement Road, Keperra regarding the con being the CO2 TAX. Brilliant! Bloggers are asking if bumper stickers could be produced.

    http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/andrewbolt/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/sending_gillard_a_billboard/

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    Winston

    Ben @ 1057

    Don’t you know that it is all a giant conspiracy that involves CSIRO, Bureau of Meteorology, Met Office in UK, most (if not all) reputable scientific bodies in the world etc.

    Don’t you know it’s not a conspiracy by these institutions at all. They are just individuals within the confines of organisations that have prostituted themselves to their political masters. Unfortunately, politics is a syphilitic whore who has infected all these good people, who then have no choice but to continue to partake of her earthly pleasures if they want to eat, educate their children, stay employed or follow any other “ignoble” pursuit. In short, it is people like you, young Ben, who are the pox infecting society and it’s institutions, for which I would prescribe high dose lifelong Penicillin, because tertiary syphilis leads to madness and dementia and is not a pretty sight!

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    Winston

    PS. How was that for comic relief? Was it good for you too?

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    Ben

    I made a post earlier that seems to have gone into a black hole en-route to the Jo Nova parallel universe. I will repeat it:

    Yesterday I got some idea of how a Carbon Price will affect prices when I booked an airfare and paid the optional Carbon Offset.

    Airfare (Melbourne – Canberra & Return) $259.00
    Carbon Offset $1.62

    Yes, that’s right folks – a whole 0.63%

    But then my fare included a credit card surcharge of $8.18 (3.16%)
    And GST of 23.55 (9.09%)

    Kinda puts things in perspective doesn’t it?

    And of course our better companies will get stuck into innovation and the Carbon Price they pay will reduce. And the impact on consumers will fall further as is the intention.

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    Ben @ 1063

    Did the weather get any cooler?

    To get the suckers hooked in, remember Julia said “starting price.”

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    Mark

    Kevin Moore #1064

    And further more, how long will the “compensation” will last, hmmm? Inflation will take care of that but the ever increasing “carbon” price will soon see old folk freezing to death in their homes during winter for want of electricity.

    The cynical amongst the “carbonista” will simply see that as so much money saved in pensions. After all, even Jooliar expressed her contempt for the aged when she stated that “they don’t vote for us”.

    Stupid, stupid people grasping at straws.

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    Ben

    Mark @ 1065

    Stupid, stupid people grasping at straws.

    Yes! Nicely sums up most of the posters on this blog and the counter-factual universe in which they dwell.

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    Mark

    Sceptics don’t grasp at straws, sceptics kick down your sandcastle “science”.

    You ridiculous cartoon character excuse for a human being. That you are failing to convince anybody but a twisted bunch of social engineers and hordes of welfare mendicants grates fearfully upon you. You have tried shouting opposition down but it hasn’t worked and won’t work.

    One could ask by how much will a “carbon” tax in Australia reduce global temperatures. But then, you’d do the usual tap dance around the question and then slink off to the sidelines scattering irrelevancies as you retreat.

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    memoryvault

    Mark @ 1067

    But then, you’d do the usual tap dance around the question and then slink off . . .

    Bloody brilliant mate.

    I think you have given us a new name for these nongs –

    TaDaAs

    .

    Tap Dancing Alarmists.

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    Winston

    Ben and assorted Labour dogsbodies,
    For you pleasure, I have reproduced a little play I have begun which I hope the pollies in Canberra might perform as a Christmas panto perhaps, and I have given suggestions as to which of your estimable colleagues might be best suited for each of the roles.
    Where possible I have used Shakespeare’s characters, although some like Mr Rudd and Mr Turnbull are so larger than life that Shakespeare could not possibly do justice to their massive egos, and so they needed a fresh character to match their extraordinary “skills”.
    I hope it shows the esteem we at this blog hold our betters in Canberrra. Apologies to those who have already seen this, but it seemed pertinent to these stooges’ agenda.

    “The Tragedy of Julia Caesar”
    Or “A Chronicle of a Political Death Foretold”
    Or “A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to a Carbon Tax”
    Or “Quid Pro Quo: The revenge Of Circus Maximus( Kevin Rudd)”

    Dramatis Personae (Cast of Characters/Players)

    ▪ Julia Caesar, Emperor of the Utopia Viridus (literally “Green Utopia”) which,
    in spite of it’s name, ironically has become a barren wasteland of deserted
    streets, closed factories and crumbling infrastructure. The populace are
    living in deprivation; hungry and cold, bereft of hope and lacking in the
    basic freedoms they once took for granted. On the plus side, at least
    they have superfast broadband!………………………………….………………. ………………………..Julia Gillard

    ▪ Calpurnius, Primus hominis (First Bloke), Significant other and ornamental
    accompaniment to Caesar …………………………………………………………………………………….. Tim Mathieson

    ▪ Circus Maximus, Statesman, whose most famous attribute is a constant desire
    to erect statues and monuments to himself. In deference to Utopia’s greatest
    gladiator, his philibusters at the Senate earned him the honorarium, “The
    Bradmanium of Boredom”. Latin is not a dead language, so much as comatose,
    in the hands of this redoubtable orator. His desire is a return to rule, but he
    lacks popular or moral support, in spite of his beliefs to the contrary…………………………… Kevin Rudd

    ▪ Marcus Antonius, soldier of fortune and man of action. Famously, eviscerated
    an impertinent scribe with a withering gaze that would have melted plastic.
    However, his devotion to the Gods is an obstacle to his popular appeal ……………………..Tony Abbott

    ▪ Octavius, aka Caucus Non Sequitur, disciple of alchemist and economic magician
    Ponzius, known for his ability to make gold from the “aether”. Some have been unkind
    enough to suggest that he is running interference for Caesar out of monetary self
    interest. Perish the thought!…………………………………………………………..………………… Malcolm Turnbull

    Senators
    ▪ Cicero, Skilful orator who reached the pinnacle of his distinguished career in his
    retirement, in his dissection of his political allies as the author of his magnum
    opus “Pars Exhibeo: Stolidus Sub Democratam” (aka “Sideshow: Dumbing
    Down Democracy”), available for $XIX.VC online or from all good book stores
    and retail outlets………………………………………………………………………………………. Lindsay Tanner

    ▪ Publius, Bit player, no dialogue, walk on part only…………………………………….. Chris Evans

    ▪ Popilius Lena, Senator, whose main claim to fame is that she suffers from strange
    seizures, where she becomes temporarily disorientated, believing that she
    is in fact Caesar. Usually, these seizures coincide with major policy releases
    by the government………………………………………………………………………………….. Christine Milne

    Conspirators in the demise of Julia Caesar
    ▪ Marcus Brutus Swannius, A man of seemingly innocuous and colourless
    personality who is nevertheless the ultimate opportunist. Also, holder of
    Caesar’s purse strings. Pythagorus himself marveled at his mathematical
    prowess, in his ability to make a negative sum out of any two positive
    numbers- a concept now known as Swannius’ constant!……………………………….. Wayne Swan

    ▪ Cassius, A man of overarching ambition, but delusions of grandeur given
    his absence of mandate and the lack of practical applicability for his
    grand schemes of social transformation and “world governance”. A devotee
    of Ludditus, he believes that the plebeians should all return to a stone age
    existence, living hand to mouth in caves. The “lean and hungry look” indeed!
    A devout worshipper of the god Sol and the Venti (Gods of the sun and the
    four winds), he allows no worship of any other power within his realm………………………….. Bob Brown

    ▪ Casca, Chief conspirator in the political coup that brought down Maximus prior
    to Julia’s Caesarship. Watch your backs everyone!…………..………………………………………… Bill Shorten

    ▪ Trebonius, A man from humble background who rose from these uninspiring
    beginnings to become an anachronism once reaching his goal……………………………………. Martin Ferguson

    ▪ Decimus Brutus, Former leader, whose similar name to his co-conspirator (Marcus
    Brutus) and lack of killer instinct consigned him to the backwaters of history.. ……..Simon Crean

    ▪ Metellus Cimber, Former Lyre musician, unexpectedly elevated in the ranks only to
    be scapegoated, gutted and cast aside in the twinkling of an eye. Known also for
    his epileptiform gyrations in his previous incarnation as a musician, a skill which
    has since come in handy in his latest role as government javelin catcher!…… ………………..Peter Garrett

    ▪ Cinna, Recipient of the Order of Prius, for being the only member of the government to
    actually drive one!……………………………………………………………………………………..….. Penny Wong

    Tribunes
    ▪ Flavius, unabashed supporter of Caesar, in spite of pretense of objectivity when
    acting as an arbiter in senatorial debate, he fails to hide his true ideological beliefs
    during the political discourse……………………………………………………… ……Tony Jones

    ▪ Marcellus, aka Sanctimonius, ditto, in spades!………………………………..….. Kerry O’Brien

    Miscellaneous
    ▪ Artemidorus: a Sophist of Cnidos, propagandist for Caesar, notable for his
    ability to create “communal possibilities through persuasive speech” ..…… Stephan Lewandowsky

    ▪ Three Soothsayers, readers of Entrails and holders of the “secret knowledge” of
    Portents, controllers of the Cosmos -their motto being “Scienta certus est”
    (“The science is settled”)……………………………………………………………………….. Tim Flannery
    Will Steffen
    Ross Garnaut

    ▪ Marcus Favonius, a poet, espouser of the “Cynic” philosophy, chief thorn in the
    side of Caesar and defender of skepticism…………………………….…………………… Andrew Bolt

    ▪ Lazarus, became a much admired former leader in Utopia in the old pre-Imperial
    Republic through sound economic management, but only gained popularity after
    his bypass. His motto being “Filiorum in Mare” (Children Overboard)…………………… John Howard

    ▪ Pompey, former leader, who lived up to his name by bombastically erupting at
    unexpected moments in public life. Political longevity believed to be due to his
    revolutionary patented pickling process, and a diet consisting largely of blanched
    nuts……………………………………….….………………………………………………………… Bob Hawke

    ▪ Achilles Incognito, or “Ad nauseam” to his friends, “Ad hominem” to his adversaries.
    Former leader, who is notorious for having the prickliest personality in the history of the
    Republic. His arrogance, though legendary, should be tempered by Churchillius’ oft-quoted
    saying- “A pig looks man straight in the eye and recognizes his equal”. Also, believed to
    have been the first person to have made a silk purse out of a sow’s ear! …………….. Paul Keating

    ▪ The Medusa, Creature of mythology, to look into it’s eyes is to be immediately
    turned to stone at the sight of it’s frightening form!……………………………………. Greg Combet

    Act I, Scene I:

    Outside Rome, Via Appia (under construction), weather overcast, with storm clouds brewing overhead. A messenger is seen approaching in haste towards a group of three cloaked, hooded men- the soothsayers for Caesar.

    Messenger: Ave, I bring news from Brittania, my lords! (Excitedly) It has been said by the noble scholars in that far off isle, that dark portents are being noted by all and sundry at Universitas Anglia Ortus. The sky itself weighs heavily upon us. Something must be done immediately to avert disaster for Caesar and Imperial Rome, for a grave catastrophe is at hand!

    Soothsayer 1 (Flannery): It’s worse than we thought! We must inform Caesar at once. Get thee hence, messenger, spread the word to the villagers surrounding us. They must prepare for great austerity and sacrifice in response to this threat to our safety and security.

    Messenger: Yes, milord. (Exuent)

    Soothsayer 2 (Steffen): Don’t you think we should consult the entrails first, we should seek an independent correlation to confirm this theory. After all, it is well accepted by 97% of soothsayers that correlation is proof of causation in such matters.

    A lamb is subsequently despatched, post haste and placed upon a makeshift altar. An incision along the ventral abdominal surface exposes the bowels within, and Soothsayer 1 (Flannery) examines the loops of bowel feverishly.

    Soothsayer 1 (Flannery): Do you see these black specks? There, they are tiny, but they’re definitely there for all with the knowledge and skill to see. This does not bode well for the Empire!

    Soothsayer 2 (Steffen): Definitely, I see what you mean (lying, not wanting to appear stupid to his colleague). What do you think? (turning to Number 3).

    Soothsayer 3(Garnaut): (Hesitates) Yes, indeed, it is readily apparent for those with eyes to see. Your wisdom is well demonstrated, let it be known hereafter to one and all.

    Soothsayer 1 (Flannery): So we have a consensus?

    All (in unison): Consensus!! (they clasp hands and dance around the eviscerated carcass, singing, exclaiming and rejoicing in their new discovery that spells doom for one and all. Hoorah!!)

    Soothsayer 3(Garnaut): (stops) We must alert Caesar immediately!! The Gods are displeased with our flagrant and profligate waste and excess. To avert disaster for our beloved Empire, social reorganisation among the plebeians is required as they are most surely responsible for the anger of the Gods. Look at them all, revolting creatures! An offense to the eye, the ear and especially the nose!
    Come, make haste, not a moment to lose. Perhaps we will engage the help of Artemidorus, the Sophist (Lewandowsky), after all, he could sell sand to the Egyptians!

    Soothsayer 1 (Flannery): Come, go we must at speed, lest we are all doomed! (Exuent all)

    Act I, Scene II:
    “Villa Boganii”, residence of Caesar, just a discus throw from the main Senate building, the “Theatrum Absurdum”.
    Fanfare to announce arrival of the Soothsayers, accompanied by Artemidorus.

    All: Ave, Caesar.

    Soothsayer 1 (Flannery): We bring you grave news, Caesar. We have received word from Brittania, confirmed by our own rigorous and robust investigation of lamb entrail proxies showing the telltale black traces of “Carbonis”, which clearly demonstrate that our skies are contaminated with this noxious spirit, my liege. So vile and insidious is this invisible spirit looming about us in the very air we breathe, that a series of calamities are certain to befall us lest we take immediate and drastic action!

    Caesar: (stunned) How could this be so, soothsayer! We are a noble and just Empire, we routinely make sacrifices to the Gods. Why, only last week I had several Vestal Virgins put to death to honour the Gods, surely this should have appeased them.

    Soothsayer 1 (Flannery): Alas, clearly not enough Caesar, for the Gods are angry at the profligacy of the plebeians and their undue wealth. I hear some even eat more than once a week, while others are enjoying the warmth of the hearth during our cold winters. Such luxury is clearly unsustainable, Caesar. No wonder the Gods are displeased.

    Caesar: (eating grapes, ensconced on a divan) Well, I know that if I must endure such privations as these meagre surroundings (waves her hand wanly to indicate the paved portico, the fountain and pond in the centre, with assorted hand maidens and eunuchs surrounding her with fans), then so too should the peasantry! What sort of calamities do you refer to, noble advisor?

    Soothsayer 2 (Steffen): The air we breathe, Caesar, will become so overheated as to cause terrifying tempests, which will reap destruction to houses and villages. The extreme heat will also lead to a great pestilence with plagues of locusts and rats. A famine will almost certainly ensue by the killing of our livestock and the failure of our crops. Finally, the seas will rise to swamp the Tiber and inundate Rome itself. In other words, other than the complete destruction of the Empire and all you hold dear, not much!*

    *Please note that the standard disclaimer applies- While reasonable efforts have been made to ensure the accuracy, completeness and reliability of this advice, we accept no liability for the accuracy of or inferences from this prediction, or any action as a result of any person’s or group’s interpretation, deduction, conclusion or actions in relying on said prediction.

    Caesar: (aghast) So what is your suggestion for appeasing the Gods, soothsayers.

    Soothsayer 3 (Garnaut): It’s clear from the signs that we have seen and demonstrated clearly to all that the Gods are displeased at our modern lifestyle. The plebeians have a new-found wealth and luxury that is an affront to the dignity of every noble person in our Empire. I can only suggest measures of the harshest and most draconian nature to redress this “imbalance”. I suggest a Carbonis tax on the plebeians, which should address this most egregious threat to civil order. Starting at a small level, so as not to arouse panic or dissent among the masses, the tax can rise yearly, slowly throttling the little bourgeois aspirants in their tracks. Sweeten the pot a little in the beginning Caesar, and they won’t know what hit them! At first, they will believe they are being compensated for the impost being thrust upon them. Then, by surreptitiously withdrawing these inducements as time goes by, we will expose them to the full brunt of this marvelous tax’s power, which will slowly strangle the life-blood out of these upstarts. Hoorah!! The Gods are then appeased, the Empire will be saved and the insidious spirit infecting our air will no longer assail us, my liege.

    Artemidorus: If I may be so bold, Caesar, I suggest we must embark first and foremost on a concerted campaign to win the hearts and minds of these naive, yet ever so troublesome plebeians. We shall ask our friends, the Tribunes Flavius and Marcellus, to disseminate as much disinformation as possible through persuasive debates with like-minded patriots, in order to disarm the populace. Persuade them of the certainty of the science of the Soothsayers, frighten the masses with exaggerated tales of the catastrophes about to befall us, vilify this “Carbonis” in it’s every form no matter how innocuous it may be! If any are so bold as to contradict our assertions, vilify and attack them without mercy, for they are traitors to the Empire and must be silenced. Perhaps tattooing them with their vile conceit will suffice, to mark forever their treachery for all to see. Those who are employed must be marginalized in their place of work, depriving them of their livelihoods will cut them down to size more swiftly than any sword, Caesar. Also, we must spread the creed through all the places of learning, persuading those teachers of similar mind to present these facts to their students without question, discouraging wherever we can any abominations such as “analytic thought” or “inquiring minds”. Such thoughts and expressions of liberty are dangerous in the hands of these denizens of the lower depths! Without these measures, sire, we cannot succeed in appeasing the wrath of the Gods. Exitus acta probat (The end justifies the means)!

    Caesar: Then let it be done!

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    Mark

    MV #1068
    Thanks for that. It was a toss-up with the soft-shoe shuffle.

    Winston Shakespeare #1069
    Good stuff!

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    Winston

    Especially the last 3 paragraphs seem pertinent to these people who have invaded this thread, describing the utter contempt these people have for facts, science and the aspirations of their own people. Perhaps Adam Smith, Ben and P.Dragone (the latter gentleman who clearly believes that racial and gender stereotyping are fine if the victim is male and white!) can have roles as eunuchs in Act I Scene II, that would seem well within their acting capabilities and not too much of a stretch for them. Lol

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    Mark

    Winston:

    Happen to know of any Shakespeare plays featuring bed-wetting basket-weavers?

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    Winston

    Shakespeare’s unpublished work, “Depend and Dependability”, or was that Jane Austen.

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    Maxine

    Janet Janet Janet!

    I can see the damage CC is doing right in my garden. Plants don’t need 450ppm CO2 in the atmosphere.

    I have studied economics at the Uni of SA. I have also seen the damage neoliberal theory has done to many countries’ economies. So basing my decision on facts I will ignore your suggestions for economists to read and will act to reduce my personal CO2 emissions or sequester CO2 in my soil etc.

    Rob Moore, yes I know there are cycles and yes I know the MD flows and ebbs. Was there some point in all that for me? Rainfall is slowly decreasing here in the southern half of our land (and decreasing even faster in the SW part of WA—oh sorry, the Met office here, the CSIRO here, the Met office in the UK are all corrupt aren’t they? Sign of a particularly weak and desperate conspiracy theory. In the northern half rainfall is increasing—I reckon we need to look at doing a Snowy type scheme with the Burdekin (and Bowden) Rivers, send more water down headwaters of the Darling, will recharge the Great Artesian Basin and the Murray Rv. In the absence of that, quite an amount of water needs to be allocated to environmental purposes. A dead river benefits no one.

    BTW I despise the Greens—I am no watermelon OK? But I can see what is happening around me, not blinded by ideology. I grow heaps of fruit trees, veges, herbs, flowers etc on my 650sqm block. To get fruit that doesn’t get baked by the sun I have had to put a double layer of birdnetting over them, cuts the sun by 15%. Picked 60Kg of plums this year and now dozens of bottle of plum mead and plum wine are resting in my cellar. Plam jam too, plum sauce. I can even distinguish the heat island effect of big cities from climate change, OK?

    Oh yeah—the compensation from the CT won’t run out. As companies buy permits the funds get redirected as announced. Inflation, higher targets or whatever the amount raised and redistributed grows. Whoever said that the compensation will run out is either letting his ideology run away with him or has not bothered reading the plentiful info out there. Or is as dumb as pigshit.

    Enjoy your little journey, hope it doesn’t cost you too much in diesel/time/jobs forgone. It is a total waste of time as your Petition is invalid. Maybe, just maybe one or two of you might ask who organised this futile convoy and whose interests it serves.

    Think!

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    Colin Dixon

    Has the obvious been mentioned yet? The biggest danger of the Carbon Tax is that it will work. Fossil fuels will be replaced with the so called “renewable” alternatives that cost 5 to 20 times more and their will be nothing left to be taxed to pay the compensation from. We will end up with no industry, no businesses and only the richest will be able to afford the cost of heating / cooling their homes.

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    Winston

    Colin @1075
    You have just summarised the end game of the eco-zealots. Whether by accident or design is open to debate, I would contend that the Greens have every intention of fulfilling exactly that agenda, from Labor it is more a case of stupidity, blindness and desperation to cling to the tiny hope of remaining in power beyond the next election.
    Maxine @ 1074, FYI- Urban Heat Island Effect is that phenomenon that Climate scientist say has an INSIGNIFICANT effect on global temperatures. It is skeptics who say UHI is underestimated, considering that temperature can vary up to 8-9 degrees across an urban landscape, I reckon we might be correct there. Be careful when you talk about UHI, you’re starting to sound dangerously like a sceptic! Too much more talk like that and Richard Glover will have you tattooed. Must be contagious, from hanging around here too long. If you are serious about getting up to speed about Climate science- I suggest you look at a little website at http://www.greenworldtrust.org.uk which has a really nice summary of most of the main issues, as seen through the eyes of permaculture advocates, who seem to be heavily into ecological sustainability. It’s fairly non threatening, plain speaking and I promise Big Oil won’t jump off the page and bite you. I say this because, if you despise the Greens, then there is hope for you.

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    Ben

    Colin Dixon @ 1075

    The biggest danger of the Carbon Tax is that it will work. Fossil fuels will be replaced with the so called “renewable” alternatives that cost 5 to 20 times more

    WOW!! That takes the cake!

    For a start, the age of cheap fossil fuel is drawing to an end, particularly petroleum. Heard of ‘Peak Oil’? So alternatives sooner or later are needed.

    As it happens, the cost of solar energy is falling rapidly and within a few years it will be cheaper than coal fired power stations. And zero ‘Carbon Price’ to pay too!

    Then there are numerous other energy sources that will be part of the overall picture too, including Geothermal and wave power.

    Colin, your post is just pure scare-mongering and has no factual basis. But then isn’t that what this site is all about?

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    Colin Dixon

    Ben #1058 there is no need for an organized conspiracy, human greed explains it all very well, there is money in believing in the Climate Change Hoax, government agency’s are the instrument of government policy they are funded to produce what the government wants. If they question the authority they will loose their job, this is all understood and needs no enforcement or anything else to work. A tame media and stupid population is all that is needed, I wonder who our Hitler will be?
    Btw Ben, you had nothing useful to add, no argument just name calling and appeal to authority, the alarmist only tools.

    Do you know how much CO2 is produced by Airlines, I notice they are top polluters, see following list. Re Post #1063 your $1.62 claim sounds wrong, how was this worked out?

    http://barnabyisright.com/2011/07/18/the-biggest-polluters-are-food-for-thought-if-you-like-to-eat-drink-or-bathe/

    http://barnabyisright.com/2011/07/25/the-500-biggest-polluters-exposed-everything-the-government-is-not-telling-you/

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    Colin Dixon

    Ben #1077, if you claim was true their would be know need for any government funding, why don’t we just wait until these cheaper than coal base load solar plants arrive. Coal is not running out anytime soon and current projections are that our best efforts will have no measurable effect on the average maxium global temperature that your so fearful about. Btw why am I “scare-mongering: when I don’t even see that there is a problem with CO2?

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    Winston

    Ben
    So the sun will soon be open for business and available 24/7, ie. in the dark. That’s progress, mate! And geothermal, in the most geologically stable continent on earth- might be good for NZ but not for us on any scale- total waste of money, you may as well take a few billion and have a bonfire. The only way renewables will ever be viable will be if Thorium nuclear and Hydro was on the table. But noooooo, you guys would rather pin your hopes on some as yet undetermined technological advancement, which will magically materialise out of the ether with immediate start up, no lag time for R&D or even accounting for the numerous blind alleys which government inevitably finds itself in (because as we know government is thoroughly lousy at making commercial decisions which are viable). Meanwhile, wasting money left, right and centre. Well done chief, you blokes will consign yourself to oblivion after the next election, short of the entire country having a lobotomy in the meantime.

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    Ben

    Colin Dixon @ 1078

    Btw Ben, you had nothing useful to add, no argument just name calling and appeal to authority, the alarmist only tools.

    I am not a scientific expert and I doubt you are either. My choice is to take notice of the best available expert opinion. In Australia that would include the CSIRO and the Australian Academy of Science. For example, this report: http://www.science.org.au/reports/climatechange2010.pdf But of course, to you, that would be all part of the grand conspiracy and it is better to heed babbling fools like Barnaby.

    Do you know how much CO2 is produced by Airlines, I notice they are top polluters, see following list. Re Post #1063 your $1.62 claim sounds wrong, how was this worked out?

    The basis of the $1.62 was a stated quantity of CO2. From the Virgin Australia website it appears they use the National Carbon Offset Standard http://www.climatechange.gov.au/en/government/initiatives/national-carbon-offset-standard.aspx which was introduced in March 2007. Oh wait a minute… that was under the Howard Govt. So they are part of the conspiracy too. :(

    Life must be hard as a denier of all forms of reality.

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    Mark

    Maxine.

    So you’ve swallowed the KoolAid. That makes you a defacto Green whether you admit to it or not.

    You want to believe Julia. That just shows your idealogy. This government has not yet had one idea which didn’t involve financial profligacy.

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    Winston

    Colin @ 1078

    Do you know how much CO2 is produced by Airlines

    Enough to make polar bears fall from the sky. m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=fxis7Y1iklQ

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    Emmie

    Peak oil my left foot!!!!!!!!

    Titan’s Organic Hydrocarbons Dwarf Earth’s Oil Reserves – Data from the Cassini probe orbiting Saturn has shown that the ringed planet’s moon has “hundreds of times more liquid hydrocarbons than all the known oil and natural gas reserves on Earth.” (Wired; Feb. 13, 2008)

    ‘Fossil fuel’ theory takes hit with NASA finding – NASA scientists are about to publish conclusive studies showing abundant methane of a non-biologic nature is found on Saturn’s giant moon Titan, a finding that validates a new book’s contention that oil is not a fossil fuel. (World Net Daily; Dec. 1, 2005)
    Other Stories by WND
    Huge natural gas field ‘discovered’ in Texas
    Abandoned oil wells uncapped
    ‘Black Gold’ strikes Big Oil ‘nerve’
    ‘Hundreds of years’ of oil available
    Forget everything you know about oil

    Confessions of an “ex” Peak Oil Believer – F William Engdahl says Peak Oil is not our problem. Politics is. Big Oil wants to sustain high oil prices. Reviews the discovery of abiotic oil. (OilGeopolitics.net; September 14, 2007)

    Stalin and Abiotic Oil – Or How Ruppert’s ‘Peak Oil’ Pile is Gaining Tonnage; by Dave McGowan (Educate Yourself; March 5, 2005)
    Russia Proves ‘Peak Oil’ is a Misleading Scam – In 1970 the Russians started drilling Kola SG-3, an exploration well which finally reached a staggering world record depth of 40,230 feet. Since then, Russian oil majors including Yukos have quietly drilled more than 310 successful super-deep oil wells, and put them into production. Last Year Russia overtook Saudi Arabia as the world’s biggest single oil producer, and is now set to completely dominate global oil production and sales for the next century.
    ‘Oil Shock’ Looming – What are the Alternatives? – “My conclusion is that there is much about oil (and natural gas) that we have not been told, including how much of the stuff is available, and how it continually develops, even to this day.” At the end of the article is a list of sites and articles on peak oil, but the interesting part is a second list of the contrary view — could oil reserves be virtually unlimited? (by Sepp Hasslberger, NEC; 2004)
    Article > Sustainable Oil? – presents theory and evidence that oil is not solely of organic origin. (Rense.com; July 10, 2004) a reprint of Sustainable Oil (WorldNetDaily; May 25, 2004)
    Data >In situ Production of Inorganic-Derived Petroleum – Scientists in the US have witnessed the production of methane under the conditions that exist in the Earth’s upper mantle for the first time. The experiments demonstrate that hydrocarbons could be formed inside the Earth via simple inorganic reactions — and not just from the decomposition of living organisms as conventionally assumed — and might therefore be more plentiful than previously thought. (PhysicsWeb; Sept. 14, 2004)
    Peak Oil: Can 3D Exploration Postpone The Peak? – Ability to find reserves more readily may postpone the “peak” phenomenon; general discussion of “peak oil” factors. (MSNBC; Sept. 23, 2004) (Alt Energy Blog)
    Follow-up > More Evidence For Sustainable Oil – (Rense.com; July 10, 2004)

    PhysicsWeb – Science gets hot under the crust
    Thomas Gold – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Book > The Deep Hot Biosphere: The Myth of Fossil Fuels – by Thomas Gold, Ph.D. (originally published 1999)

    Just pointing out there are other facts and theories out there………… Could this be yet another indoctrinational – er educational – fallacy???

    PS. GO THE CONVOY………
    Haven’t given up trying to convince my better half to join the convoy – still got another couple of days :-0

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    Colin Dixon

    Ben #1081, again true to form, more appeal to authority, the link is also. An argument would challenge specific points with reference to support your claims. Using “Denier” is name calling aligning my argument to “Holocaust Denier”. These are the same manipulative strategies used by fascists like Hitler.
    I said our best efforts would have no measurable effect on temperature.
    I said the government paid scientists are not allowed to challenge government policy.
    I said just wait until these cheaper than coal base load solar plants arrive.
    I said coal is not running out anytime soon.
    I said there is a lot of money in being into the climate hoax “greed” drives it.
    I assume you accept all of these truths unchallenged.

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    Ben

    Colin Dixon @ 1085
    An appeal to the authority of experts in their field beats an appeal to ignorance in my book.

    But of course you are impervious to rational thought.

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    Winston

    Ben @ 1086

    But of course you are impervious to rational thought.

    Penetrating self analysis if ever there was one!

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    Maxine, Maxine, Maxine @1074

    I can see the damage CC is doing right in my garden. Plants don’t need 450ppm CO2 in the atmosphere.

    Wow, when did we get up to 450ppm? That happened…er, overnight! In any case, you should speak to the glasshouse operators who continue to pay for tanks of CO2 to pump it into their plants’ controlled atmosphere. You’re obviously much smarter than those stupid idiots. They don’t know how much they need you. Hurry!

    I have studied economics at the Uni of SA. I have also seen the damage neoliberal theory has done to many countries’ economies. So basing my decision on facts I will ignore your suggestions for economists to read and will act to reduce my personal CO2 emissions or sequester CO2 in my soil etc.

    Unfortunately, any attempt to implement “neoliberal” theory, as you call it, was abandoned long ago, relegated to folklore by power-grabbing politicians and fiefdom-expanding bureaucrats. If you think Austrian Economics is responsible for the current state of affairs, you never studied the success of the Reagan/Thatcher (et al) reforms after the disastrous 1970s.

    Actually, if you think Austrian Economics is responsible for the current state of affairs, it pretty much solidifies my strong suspicion that Australia is suffering from a severe lack of decent economics courses within a general deficiency in decent universities as demonstrated by a derth of any “true” economists.

    Rob Moore, yes I know there are cycles and yes I know the MD flows and ebbs. Was there some point in all that for me? Rainfall is slowly decreasing here in the southern half of our land (and decreasing even faster in the SW part of WA—

    Show me the evidence. I live in Narrogin (wheatbelt of Western Australia), where rainfall records go back to 1889. The trend in rainfall over that period is flat. This winter is smashingly good. Don’t cherry pick your start point (not that YOU would…just be careful of who you listen to!)

    Matt (my husband) attended a beef conference over East in 2002 in which a UN (AGW alarmist) speaker said that the SW of WA was going to dry up and blow away in the next decade, and places in the East were going to have lots of rain. We had just purchased land to develop a business that would use grain that needed rain in order to be produced. We had studied the rainfall charts and temperature records in detail. Matt knew the guy was full of the proverbial, but still, reality is a great thing to have on our side.

    In the ensuing 8 years of operations, WA exported grain every year, including last year, which was one of the worst seasons ever (6.2 million tonnes of grain produced!) 3 years of the 8, the Eastern domestic users of grain came to WA to buy, because they suffered from drought.

    Your assertions are without support. I think you should listen to Ben’s advice in #1058:

    Maxine

    Why do you bother?

    Come to think of it, Ben might want to heed his own advice, too. :-)

    Cheers,
    Janet

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    So, Jo, does Mark get a prize for being the only person in the history of this site to post the 1,000th comment? Really, we must thank some scared girls and boys for making this the huge thread it’s become (no offence, Mark). I wish we could console them and put their fears to rest. Bless their hearts…

    Oh, and as for the convoy, this is getting very exciting! We’re leaving from the Belmont Racecourse (PERTH) at 7:00 a.m. sharp on Thursday morning. Be there to send us off, if you can! Orange balloons and streamers, Aussie flags and “your issue” signage adorning your vehicle of choice.

    Gillard and Labor would not have got the votes they got if they had been honest before the election about implementing a so-called carbon tax.

    The goal of the convoy: Election Now. Simple, really.

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    Colin Dixon

    Ben @ 1086
    5 Clear points and you have no response, even the paid government unskeptical scientists you call experts cannot challenge them.
    Aristotle used Ethos, Pathos, Logos can we use Logos?

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    Roy Hogue

    So, Jo, does Mark get a prize for being the only person in the history of this site to post the 1,000th comment? Really, we must thank some scared girls and boys for making this the huge thread it’s become (no offence, Mark). I wish we could console them and put their fears to rest. Bless their hearts…

    Maybe Jo can make up a certificate of some kind and send it to Mark D. Hitting the 1000th mark right on the money deserves some recognition and something for the JN record book too.

    But the real honors go to those of you who have decided to take action. You’ve made this thread go. It’s your fire to get what you want that’s in the driver’s seat.

    Good luck! And let ‘er rip! :-) :-) :-):-)

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    JoeV.

    CATE –

    Also need a video of the 1st Truck ignition start!
    Put it on You Tube after Jonova – it’ll go great.

    Only is it 28 hours to go ?

    Woo Hoo !

    The World is watching.

    Will the start be on TV or radio ?

    The Whole World wants to be there.
    With the help of the Internet, I hope we can.

    Which Channels are worth following for the coverage ?

    Joe V., UK.

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    Ian Hill

    Janet @ 1088, did you mean to say “Australian economics” rather than “Austrian economics”?

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    Ian Hill:#1093
    August 15th, 2011 at 7:41 am

    Janet @ 1088, did you mean to say “Australian economics” rather than “Austrian economics”?

    No, there is such a thing as Austrian Economics from early 20th C by a Carl Menger and a couple of his students.

    Here, try this

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    Fiona

    I think this convoy is THE most exciting thing I’ve heard about in a long, long time. I’m tired of our lives being run by the tree-hugging, lizard-loving, politically-correct, do-gooder chardonnay/latte set. Honestly, we can’t say what we think anymore for fear of hurting someone’s fragile feelings. Gone are the days where you can call it as you see it. This convoy represents to me a groundswell in people that have had enough. GetUp! Gillard, Brown et al are NOT representative of the majority view in Australia. Even if I’m not there on the day, I’m there in spirit. I hope this convoy is the biggest thing to hit Canberra in the last 100 years. Good luck to you all.

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    [...] for Doomsday. Tuesday August 16th 2011 Parliament House Canberra 12 noon. Details here August 22nd The Convoy of No Confidence arrives in Canberra. See Just Grounds for details. (Get the petitions in the post [...]

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    Maxine

    For those wanting to know about US states’ deficits here they are:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2407a698-9920-11df-9418-00144feab49a.html#axzz1V3doMHeB

    Closing parks, libraries and gaols.

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    Maxine

    And here:

    http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=711

    BTW, if you honestly look into your hearts, HM of you know climate change exists, have seen it in your garden, farm or district and want CC debate shut down because it scares three kinds of shit out of you?

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    Ian Hill

    Oh, rightyo Mr Humbug. Thanks, I think.

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    Roy Hogue

    Maxine @1097

    BTW, if you honestly look into your hearts, HM of you know climate change exists, have seen it in your garden, farm or district and want CC debate shut down because it scares…

    You do take the cake for ignorance. Skeptics want debate! We have asked for nothing as often, as loudly or as persistently as we have asked for debate. Joanne’s whole effort has been toward open debate on the merit of the science behind — and I’ll use its original name — global warming. But folks like you would have none of it. The IPCC would have none of it. Al Gore runs from debate. James Hansen runs from debate. The so-called press runs from debate. My government runs from it and so does yours. Everyone pushing global warming has run from debate. But not the skeptics. We’ve been ready and willing. And for our trouble we get called names, suffer character assassination and have to put up with fools like you.

    You might want to consider (or maybe the word is reconsider) what that tells you about who is sure of their position and who is not, about who is scared out of three kinds of what and who is not, about who is honest in all this and who is not. But if experience is any teacher that’s not what’ll happen, is it?

    Beware though; the tide is turning because the public is beginning to realize that you don’t add up. They’re asking questions and wondering what’s been going on. And you have no answers to their questions.

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    Rob Moore

    Maxine,
    Never mind looking into my heart or navel- I told Steve Price and the whole of Sydney that I would stake my life on this nonsense being a global SCAM. I have seen nothing since to change my mind and I know that Steve is with me now he has bothered to do the research. He and Andrew Bolt have a great morning show on MTR 1377

    Of course the Climate is always changing and always will( the point of the rivers!). If it doesn’t rain – legislation and buy backs are just voodoo policy no better than pagan worship. Seeing my country trashed does scare the shit out of me . Being a denier I only run to one kind as opposed to you pannickers who seem to have three kinds!

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    Maxine – Comrade, the struggle must continue;the importance of Global Warming for the Revolution is too great to leave in the hands of scientists. The masses must believe that it is beneficial to have faith in Global Warming,whether it can be proven or not.If Global Warming didn’t exist it would be necessary to invent it.

    Remember:

    Global Warming encompasses four dogmas;

    1. Global temperatures are rising

    2. This is a bad thing.

    3. Rising temperatures [if they exist] are caused by human industries.

    4. We must place human industries under centralised control and issue quotas to stop rising temperatures.

    From: The Peoples Cube.com

    Click on Current Truth [subject to change without notice]

    Click on Global Warming

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    martin80

    This is our country, our votes and our taxes decide the future of this country. We have a right as a nation to demand an immediate election and if that lying 2-faced prime minister refuses then we as a nation have the responsibility to assure that our demands are met! I can’t come to Canberra but I hope that these words and many more are listened to.

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    Winston

    Maxine
    You really need a little intellectual curiosity don’t you. I bet you didn’t even look at that site I referenced in #1076 did you. You are just hermetically sealed in your little cocoon of belief, like a cultist who can’t be convinced that David Koresh or Jim Jones wasn’t really the messiah after all. Climate change as a word is meaningless- there is no such thing as static climate. It’s a nonsense phrase trotted out by people who don’t know what they are talking about. Global warming (anthropogenic) is the correct term, but you can’t use that because there has been no significant warming for 13 years. The optimum climate for this planet is at a temperature ABOVE our current one. Only brainwashing has convinced you that the climate optimum was in the middle of the Dalton minimum, or perhaps the Maunder minimum would be more to your liking.

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    tas

    I couldn’t read ALL the comments :( so it may have been said already…. Sometimes, with this Govt, I wish I weren’t an Aussie, but this Convoy, and the drivers taking part at their own costs, probably giving up loads as well, make me PROUD!!! They aren’t doing it just for themselves, but for the good of the Country. Good On Them! May the roads in front of them be clear, and PLEASE let them return safely to their families.

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    Winston

    Btw Maxine, I prefer to “look into” my analytic mind rather than my heart, I tend to get more answers that make sense when I do.

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    brc

    Winston @ 1104 : Indeed, one wonders whether Maxine has done a strict written decadal study of domestic plum yields and graphed this to detect if there is a significant trend, or has listened to too much alarmism and decided that the entirely normal year-on-year variation in agricultural production (even of the domestic kind) is solely due to extra co2 in the atmosphere, from 0.035% to 0.038% in the timeframe mentioned. Our esteemed commenter would never come up with the narrative first, and then try and find or invent facts and fact-lets to support the narrative. You don’t collect data when ‘the vibe’ is all that is important.

    But, whatever, if ‘heart’ says the domestic fruit yield is affected by Australians enjoying the luxury of central heating in winter and using the most efficient and economic energy source to do it, then that’s all the analysis most people would need. We should close down some power plants and save the plums! In our hearts, we know it’s the right thing to do.

    Personally, throughout my youth I hoped for a warm and dry December and November to set the Mango crop right. Alas, year in and year out, there would be too much rain and the young fruit would get mildew and fall off. 1 year in 5 things would go well and delicious juicy fruit would burst forth from the tree and a youngster could eat fresh mango until their stomachs rejected it. But most times it was a bust. Sure, we had the wrong species tree for out latitude, but at the time I blamed local industry for toxins in the air, or something. In my heart I knew I was right. That’s all that matters when making ones way in the world. Ignore data – it lies. Wrong spot for the tree? Baloney! In my heart it was in the right spot, because it was ideal for climbing. It’s what your heart says that is important.

    But that’s what you expect from a country where the government has no bank account and can’t save money, and the politicians are too ignorant of modern economic theory to print up a million dollar note to give to every family for christmas. Not enough heart when it comes to measuring consequences of our actions, or something.

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    brc

    Janet @ 1088 : put down those rainfall charts. Look into your heart. You know the answers are there if you look hard enough. You need to stop looking at the data and get the vibe instead.

    Ian @ 1095 : Austrian economics. The Bete Noire of the tax-and-spend set. You’re in for an eye opener if you’ve not read into this much. Read some of the texts, and decide for yourself whether the Austrian model has application in the world, or if the Keyenesian (much warped in implementation) thoughts has merit. One theory says it’s OK to dig holes in the ground and fill them in, as long as people are employed and that the government should intervene to try and smooth the business cycle, the other says that you can’t centralise economic decision making because ‘the economy’ is nothing more than a very disparate, decentralised mass of people making choices of their own free will, and using the fluid mechanism of price as a very accurate feedback mechanism on what is wanted and what is not.

    You can also find the thread on this site on the keynes vs hayek rap. That was entertaining. Funnily enough, opinion tends to split down the line of whether you think governments shoudl control people or the other way around. I’ll leave you to detect whether most CAGW lovers also find Keynes a bit irresistable. It’s a pity, because as a bloke and an economist, he had a lot to contribute. He did say that all politicians are in thrall to a dead economist. It’s just a barking shame that most are enthrall to what passes for Keynesian theory these days, aka any excuse to tax and spend.

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    Cate S

    Listen to this man….a labor voter…i am sooooo angry about this! Bring on the Convoys!
    http://www.fiveaa.com.au/audio_gary-tells-the-government-how-it-is_102558

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    Rob Moore

    This link is on the money!-

    ONE SIDE OF THE STORY – CAN’T WAIT FOR THE NEXT – WORTH A WATCH

    http://kzoo.co/VyQHed

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    Cate S: @ 1109

    The information on this site may be of some assistance:

    Basic Fraud

    http://basic-fraud.com/

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    Gee Aye

    Kevin Moore:
    August 15th, 2011 at 7:53 pm
    Cate S: @ 1109
    The information on this site may be of some assistance:
    Basic Fraud
    http://basic-fraud.com/

    This is a perfect example of the old axiom that good comedy does not just happen. It requires lots of work. Well done to the creators of this web site for their efforts.

    Convoyers, when you finish laughing, [ please get on with the goals you set out to achieve

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    Baa Humbug @1094 – Thanks for the link. I was unaware of Rudd’s attempt to redefine Austrian Economics. It was an amusing read. I suspect if he had the time, Obama would attempt the same. ;)

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    Hammo

    Cate 1109 this made me cry listening to this. I actually handed out how to vote cards for Labor at the last election because of the lies they told and promises they were making. Now I have to face people in town and try to explain why I did it.
    I have no faith at all in the Labor Party anymore. They are sneaking in changes to the tax system that the average person doesn’t even know about and i feel I’m responsible coz I may have helped them get elected somehow. Anything I can do to help bring this government down I am trying right now.
    My wife is pregnant and our child won’t have a future in this country unless they can get a job in the tax office coz that will be the only career left when everything else is forced offshore.

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    Lachlan

    Go the Convoy get rid Of these stooges who work for the Banksters!
    Only Solution Glasssteagle. The banks back into the hands of the people & the common good. Join THE CITIZENS ELECTORAL COUNCIL!

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    Cate S

    Hammo @ #1114
    The responsibility and accountability is with our MP’s.
    I keep writing, that people of all political persuasions feel betrayed – and it is true! Not for all of course, however a vast majority.
    They are ALL responsible – and this convoy is all encompassing – ALL parties are accountable to ALL Australians.
    Join the Convoy and have your say – be seen – the only time Australians together will agree en mass that they do NOT trust MP’s and their deceitful policies.
    Night.
    Cheers Cate

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    Maxine

    It seems my post at 1092 re AGW has stirred up a lot of the people here. The effects of AGW are already visible. Only a coward, however, pretends the problem is something else or doesn’t exist.

    Been some talk of tax and tax and spend. Present govt takes about 3% less tax than Howard & Costello did. Another fact to gloss over.

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    brc

    “The effects of AGW are already visible. Only a coward, however, pretends the problem is something else or doesn’t exist.”

    I’m no coward – I see the effects. Those poor, poor blighters in New Zealand, freezing their butts off. Climate change is deadly – we must do something now! Global Cooling must be stopped at all costs!!

    Oh wait, did you mean Global warming? Erm, well, yes, hopefully they will get some of that soon.

    I’ve got a great idea! Let’s print money! A perfect climate in every pot. Wait, what?

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    Roy Hogue

    Maxine,

    Please come back when you have a problem.

    Or show us where these effects are already visible — visible as in empirical evidence.

    Either one will do nicely.

    Thank you.

    In the meantime, please stay out of the way of all those trucks. We wouldn’t want you getting hurt.

    And for that you should thank me because unlike my message to you, the message from some on your side to us has wished us imprisonment, great bodily harm and even death.

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    Liz Butcher

    yep good idea, wish i could tag along but i need to stay at work.this is all a ploy to brainwash us into a one world order.
    we dont need anymore taxes, its mother natures way of saying the world is over taxed and greedy. and everything from a animal to humans to machinery lets of carbon. good ol fart. you cant put a tax on air how can you charge an animal for farting?
    get rid of most of the politicians and cut their wages.
    Liz

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    Bush bunny

    Any news on the convoy’s progress WUWT are running a blog and great support from overseas. Plus the song ‘Convoy’. I’ve had a pinched nerve
    in my back for the last 6 days so behind in my emails as I was bed ridden.

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  • #
    Bush bunny

    Maxine of 998. Get real? If you are so dedicated to AGW why aren’t you in Tamworth and other places carrying a placard too.

    We believe in climate change, it goes on all the time, it is AGW we don’t believe in, as it is a lie. I sent my government handout back unopened with ‘Liars’ written on it.

    So if you are so supportive of a lie, are you prepared to one day say
    ‘I was wrong and cutting CO2 emissions does not change climates anywhere’
    Possibly near an erupting volcano it might for a while. And even if we cut all human activities, it still wouldn’t change the climate.
    AGW is a vile, political marxist type agenda, and this government must go before it does any more harm. I think that putting on the convoy’s
    agenda that same sex couples raising children is wrong. Sends the wrong message. But Bob Brown during the last fed election, wished to have the term ‘intersex’ added to legal terminology. He must be joking!

    ‘Your honor, my client is intersex and must be judged differently’.
    What a chuckle that would bring.

    IRISH WEATHER PREDICTIONS (not a joke) severe winter ahead including UK. Well – don’t throw your Ugg boots away.

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    Gee Aye

    Sorry but intersex is the correct terminology for various chromosomal (mostly duplications or deletions of regulatory and structural genes in the sex determining pathway)related syndromes that produce physical and behavioural traits. Many of these trait manifest in substantial ways that differentiate them from what we recognise as normal. They are globally recognised and understood conditions and for them to not have contextual legal recognition would be bizarre.

    Rather than try to read between the line Bush Bunny, what is your specific argument regarding Brown’s statements?

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    Maxine

    BB 1121

    If AGW does not in fact exist—a 0.0001% possibility—we will have cleaner air, more efficient energy cost, houses that cost less to heat and cool, businesses that pollute less, etc etc. You forget that as well as AGW peak oil has probably been passed and so a national lifestyle that is built on abundant, low cost petrol/diesel will not be supportable for much longer.

    Now I would like to turn your question around. You have probably seen AGW in your garden, farm or region where you live and are probably trying to ignore it desperately.

    Now, if we do nothing about AGW and it turns out in fact to be true and your silly convoy helps stop anti-AGW action what are you going to do in 10 or 20 years when action is going to be more drastic, more expensive and less likely to succeed?

    I gave you an answer to your question so I hope you give me the courtesy of a considered answer to my question.

    I don’t know why you are so hot under the collar about same sex couples/marriage etc. Children like the one Penny Wong’s partner will have in December will grow up loved and wanted and “normal.” Not that Penny’s (and other same sex couples) life is any of your business!

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    Maxine

    Oh man, you of the Convoy of No Idea have an easy act to follow. Today’s No CT rally was a scant 2000 people none of whom looked to be younger than 50 and many older than that.

    So if you lot of deluded truckies can assemble more than 2000 and have a few under 50 people amongst you that you can pride yourself on that. Your journey will be in vain and your goals all wrong but hey.

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    Maxine

    Janet 1088

    We are talking not about horticulture/agriculture but about climate change.

    450ppm in the atmosphere and even more tipping points will kick in—AGW will take quite a tick upwards. Time to act against AGW is fast running out.

    BRC 1108 there are variations in temperature: a volcano erupts spewing aerosols into the upper atmosphere and so drops world temperature worldwide for a while, there are cycles of El Nino (warmer) and La Nina (cooler.)

    But when you get out in the real word and use that excellent analytical mind of yours then the science says that temperature and CO2 levels are rising in inexorable lock-step when looking at trends over a decade or longer. If you really want to feed that analytical mind give Bolt, Akerman and the like the flick and spend time on the BuMet, CSIRO and BraveNewClimate sites instead.

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    Maxine

    1082 Mark:

    Your post is meaningless. I despise the Greens, I despise the fact they foisted this stupid hybrid ETS with fixed price permits (not a tax BTW) then 3 years later traded permits with the market setting the price.

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    Maxine

    Kevin Moore:
    August 15th, 2011 at 2:37 pm
    Maxine – Comrade, the struggle must continue;the importance of Global Warming for the Revolution is too great to leave in the hands of scientists. The masses must believe that it is beneficial to have faith in Global Warming,whether it can be proven or not.If Global Warming didn’t exist it would be necessary to invent it.

    Can we deal with facts and the science of AGW Kevin? Or are you one of those desperately trying to ignore the signs of AGW all around you?

    Someone asked what signs I found in my garden. I had already alluded to one, that I need to put a double layer of birdnetting over my plum, peach, apricot, apple and pear trees and some veges like tomatoes to prevent fruit rotting on the tree before I can pick it. I have noticed generally drier winters for a while, with rain when fruit is ripening, marking fruit. Frost, which was absent for over a decade started happening again because the winters were so dry—a winter night without cloud cover and moisture in the air causes heat to whoosh out into space, faster than heat can be replenished from the soil so causing frost.

    I am sure many of you have seen similar signs. A problem faced is a problem solved: a problem ignored does not go away but gets bigger and harder to solve.

    I also obtain information from authoritative sites like the British Met Office—you can get put on their mailing list BTW. It appears spring in the UK now arrives 11 days earlier than “normal.” The grape harvest in the UK gets bigger (and I presume better?) every year as spring-summer is warmer and longer.

    Using the CSIRO, BuMet sites is not an appeal to authority—I notice some have made that accusation. Those sites collect and collate evidence, construct and test hypothesis—use science in short, gathering facts.

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    The Trucks are Coming

    Thankyou for those words of encouragement, Maxine @ #1124.

    It’s quite a commitment for the productive classes to attend a rally on a working day.

    Those are the ones the idle rely on working, to pay for their idle existence & self indulgent behaviour.

    Nevertheless, that commitment is now on-the-move, & coming through a town near you shortly.

    Watch out for them Trucks.

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    Maxine

    brc 1117

    I’m no coward – I see the effects. Those poor, poor blighters in New Zealand, freezing their butts off. Climate change is deadly – we must do something now! Global Cooling must be stopped at all costs!!
    Oh wait, did you mean Global warming? Erm, well, yes, hopefully they will get some of that soon.

    More extreme and unseasonal weather is one of the outcomes of AGW. I hope you weren’t thinking that AGW meant regular increases in temperature everywhere? Even when England and NE US was suffering those extreme winters in the last couple of years the average NHemis winter temperature was warmer than normal (BuMet email.) In Canada and now in Europe winter temperatures are warm enough the bark beetle that attacks softwoods like conifers survives winter in ever increasing numbers and these beetles are killing millions of conifers.

    Open your eyes and see that AGW is at work around us. The govts ETS will not just start slowing and eventually reversing emissions it makes possible large scale tax reform and that is good, double the value!

    So “my” side has talked of death threats to you lot? I haven’t seen any here, rather the reverse and some idiot above said I should get out of the way of the convoy and not be run over—I think whoever it was was projecting his actions onto “us.”

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    Maxine

    The truckies are coming—in the Fishwyck brothels.

    I have worked every working day since I started work in Jan 66, since 1985 I worked in my own business, working 6 days a week regularly.

    Sorry to burst your preconception.

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    Maxine

    Oh yeah, there were some snide remarks about tax and spend governments. Must have been speaking about the Howard-Costello government. Their tax take was 28.something percent of GDP. Today the tax take is 25.something percent.

    The tax reform associated with the ETS means the revenue gets distributed and no net increase in tax.

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    Maxine

    Liz Butcher

    its mother natures way of saying the world is over taxed

    Errrr what is? Read my post above—we are paying LESS tax now than 4 years ago! Woah!

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    Maxine – Komrade,

    If you loved “An Inconvenient Truth”, you will love the sequel,”An Inconvenient Pravda.”

    It’s the last picture the bourgeoisie will ever see.

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    The Trucks are Coming

    Maxine @ #1130

    The truckies are coming—in the Fishwyck brothels.
    I have worked every working day since I started work in Jan 66

    Good on yer Maxine. That would make you almost 60.
    They don’t make ‘em like they used to.

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    Cate S

    Why Maxy…are you telling us you remember the trucks while working at the brothel????? Your point would be?…oh…income! Of course! ( was it your own business?)
    Nah – its all good the Convoy today is getting attention, tomorrow…ah something a little bit special in the Territory too…:)

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    Maxine

    TTAC

    crap arithmetic buddy, I guess tho you would be the mathematical genius of the convoy?

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    Antonia

    419
    memoryvault,

    Sorry for the delay but you brought back some serious memories of chemistry classes for this oldie. But you forgot one important word in your formula: an acid and a base equals salt and water ONLY. Thus spake Sister Austin, who like Rumpole’s wife, was a She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed.

    So sad that children in the main aren’t exposed to such characters any more.

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    Maxine

    Nah with the truckies pissweak protests it is all the same. They rock up, give the Fishwyck brothels a hammering, boost the local Maccas’ revenue, make a slight nuisance of themselves then piss off again leaving no lasting impression or impact behind them except in the tills of the brothels and Maccas.

    Seems a waste of a week and $3000 of diesel (one way, same again going home.)

    The ETS will be enacted within a few weeks. Good thing the adults take no notice of the children and juveniles eh?

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    Cate S

    Bit close to the bone? ;) Better go get a few more updates on Just Grounds…should have a read…there are some very interesting ones on there now…with a few more to come.
    Just to keep you rolling along Maxy :)

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    Antonia

    Winston, your 1069 post was very impressive. What’s the bet that none of the Climate Commissioners would have understood a word?

    OK, given the appalling state of public education not many young people would get the references either but I’m talking about people in their 50s and 60s. People who are in power. Ignorant philistines the lot of them.

    Bring back Latin!

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    Antonia

    Maxine at 1138, you are delusional. I’m in my sixties and I’ve never seen anything like this protest by grassroots people. It’s incredible that so many ordinary Australians are taking the time off work to participate in this historic event.

    The mainstream media are spinning the line [and lie] that truckie protests come and go. Ho hum. But they’ll have egg all over their faces once they see the size of this protest and I can’t wait.

    I note with interest that even the Sydney Morning Herald has reported that the convoys are happening. Obviously the chief editor knows he or she will be seen as a total goose if they put pegs on their noses and pretend nothing is happening. Which is what they did about Climategate. As did the ABC.

    What morons they are. Don’t they know that they are no longer the gatekeepers of information? That we can – and do – bypass them?

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    Ben

    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it seems Tony Abbott is a believer in AGW and wants to do something about it. See last paragraph in the report below.

    WA gets grim climate warning
    DANIEL MERCER, The West Australian August 16, 2011, 2:30 am

    WA gets grim climate warning

    A new report into the effects of climate change in WA has painted a bleak picture, warning that significant coastal flooding will become routine, hundreds of plant and animal species will be wiped out and agricultural productivity will plummet.

    In one of the most dire assessments of the risks of global temperature rises, the report by the Federal Government’s Climate Commission forecasts that populated coastal areas in Perth and the South West will be subject to sea level rises twice the national rate.

    The report, to be released today, calls for urgent action to “decarbonise” the economy, stressing the transition will become prohibitively expensive unless serious steps are taken in this decade.

    It comes as Tony Abbott was forced yesterday to reaffirm the coalition’s acceptance of man-made global warming after the WA Liberal Party’s vote at the weekend for a royal commission into the science of climate change.

    In the unlikely event any here (apart from Maxine) wish to read the report referred to, it is here: http://climatecommission.gov.au/topics/western-australia-climate-change-impacts/

    So where does that leave the happy band of convoyers? Abbott believes in AGW and has exactly the same CO2 reduction target as the govt.

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    Cate S

    Ben…maaattteee its not just about AGW….good heavens…;)

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    Maxine:
    August 16th, 2011 at 7:10 am
    It seems my post at 1092 re AGW has stirred up a lot of the people here. The effects of AGW are already visible. Only a coward, however, pretends the problem is something else or doesn’t exist.

    Being a bit near sighted (accident of birth), I am not familiar with the coward’s folly. Could you perchance point out the efects of Agw?

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    Ben

    Cate S @ 1140

    Ben…maaattteee its not just about AGW….good heavens…;)

    Then what is it Cate? Let me offer a few suggestions.

    You don’t like the govt tax rate being lower than under John Howard?
    You don’t like the pension increases under the Labor govt?
    You don’t like the way the govt got Australia through the GFC in better shape than just about any other developed economy?
    You object to a temporary tax levy to help Qld and other states hit by natural disasters re-build?
    You don’t like interest rates being lower than under the previous govt?

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    Maxine:
    August 16th, 2011 at 6:00 pm
    BB 1121

    If AGW does not in fact exist—a 0.0001% possibility

    Could you show us the raw data and the calculations you used to arrive at that number?

    we will have cleaner air, more efficient energy cost, houses that cost less to heat and cool, businesses that pollute less, etc etc.

    The existence or non-existence of AGW has nothing to do with any of the things you mention. They are separate issues. It seems you are confused as to what the A, the G and the W mean in AGW. Do you need a lesson?

    You forget that as well as AGW peak oil

    AGW Peak oil? So AGW creates oil? A novel hypothesis – could you back that up please?

    You have probably seen AGW in your garden, farm or region where you live and are probably trying to ignore it desperately.

    So you are saying that AGW is a visible thing in our garden – could you describe what it looks like? A lady bug, or aphid perhaps?

    Now, if we do nothing about AGW and it turns out in fact to be true

    If…if….. How many more ifs are there? I thought we could see it? make up your mind MOrty!

    I don’t know why you are so hot under the collar about same sex couples/marriage etc.

    I fail to understand how AGW relates to same sex unions. Can you connect the dots for us?

    Not that Penny’s (and other same sex couples) life is any of your business!

    Then why is it your business? Who made you king?

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    Maxine:
    August 16th, 2011 at 6:17 pm
    Janet 1088

    We are talking not about horticulture/agriculture but about climate change.

    But it was you that said we would see it in our gardens. Are you renegging now?

    450ppm in the atmosphere and even more tipping points will kick in—AGW will take quite a tick upwards. Time to act against AGW is fast running out.

    Can you show us the equations you used to arrive at the 450 and also how the tipping points kick in?

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    Maxine

    Rob Moore

    Steve Price and the whole of Sydney that I would stake my life on this nonsense being a global SCAM. I have seen nothing since to change my mind and I know that Steve is with me now he has bothered to do the research. He and Andrew Bolt

    Now there is an appeal to authority! A shock jock and a know-nothing “commentator”! Neither have done any research and Andy quotes from the weirdest of denialist sites and goes through the weirdest visual/graphic distortions to make it look like water flows uphil and that the atmosphere and seas are not warming.

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    Mark

    Ben has just proved the point that for socialists, this was never about science but all about wealth redistribution.

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    Ben

    Mark @ 1146

    Ben has just proved the point that for socialists, this was never about science but all about wealth redistribution.

    No Mark, check carefully.

    Cate ruled out the convoy being just about AGW so I asked what else and made a few suggestions.

    Do try to get your facts straight.

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    The Trucks are Coming...

    Ben @ #1139:-

    Abbott believes in AGW and has exactly the same CO2 reduction target as the govt.

    The thing about the targets on the condemned is, you don’t know who in the firing squad is aiming where, but as Cate has already declared, if Abbott wants a crack at being Prime Minister he’ll have to lift his aim. ;-)

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    Mark

    According to Maxine, the sun rising in the morning is attributable to AGW/CC. It rains a little more than usual, AGW/CC. It rains a little less, AGW/CC….we get the drift.

    Maxine is clearly growing some interesting plants on her farm but she really should stop smoking the leaves.

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    Billy-Bob

    Ben @ 1139

    Using a portrait and first name of Ben Chifley is hardly very smart for the ALP cause Amigo, given that Chifley was routed from office by Menzies in 1949 following his (ALP’s) attempt to ‘Nationalise’ Australia’s banks and after a protracted coal miners strike.

    As for your link to the ‘Climate Commission’ I’m sure that head dick there, Timmy Flannery, will be more than pleased that he has at least one person that is a fan, even despite his notorious failings as a ‘Weather’ predictor and probably the least credible of all the believers in the ‘Fourth Horseman of the Apocalypse’ for which he was ‘Chosen’ to promote on behalf of your beloved ALP.

    Good one Ben, keep up the good work highlighting electoral annihilation for one and the complete stupidity of the other.

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  • #
    Mark

    Yeah, right Ben. It was you who came up with those particular points.

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    Ben

    Mark @ 1149

    Yeah, right Ben. It was you who came up with those particular points.

    Yes I did.

    And since they obviously agitate you, which of them do you think the convoy is motivated by? Or can you nominate other things?

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    Chris

    Well I think it’s BRILLIANT that so many people are taking the time and making the effort for this convoy. I don’t agree with their concerns or the need for an election but I think it’s fantastic that so many people are getting active in public affairs. Well done Convoy!

    But if there IS an election as a result of this, and if Labor miraculously wins it, can we please let the government run the distance to the following election – if only to be sure that this isn’t just about sore losers who just hate Labor and Labor voters.

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    The Trucks are Coming...

    Ben @#1142:-

    Then what is it Cate?

    Cate has already given a diverse & extensive multitude of reasons what’s wrong with this govt. on the ABC.

    Also repeated here at Post #351.

    And as to your smarmy:-

    Let me offer a few suggestions.
    You don’t like the govt tax rate being lower than under John Howard?

    We all know who it is that doesn’t like lower taxes, but lying about it. That’s why she has to go.

    I really don’t know why Cate bothers entertaining your nonsense, while she’s got so busy with real stuff.

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    Maxine

    To get back to US tax and spend well known investor Warren Buffet says: STOP MOLLYCODDLING THE SUPER RICH

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/opinion/stop-coddling-the-super-rich.html?_r=2&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

    So guess Teabaggers are wrong on that too.

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  • #

    Maxine:
    August 16th, 2011 at 11:26 pm

    #1 – What is preventing Buffet from paying more?
    #2 – Why are you damning homosexuals? Are you a homophobe?

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  • #
    Maxine

    Mark, don’t leave your day job for stand up comedian or as satirist. I have mentioned clearly that these are trends over decades not day to day, year to year changes.

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    brc

    Maxine, Maxine

    You may be a senior citizen, but you’re not getting any respect. Let me help you understand why.

    Just let me confirm this.

    Hot plums confirm the hypothesis that co2 emissions in your lifetime (from about 350ppm to 390ppm) has caused most (not all) of the increase in global mean temperature, being about 0.5 degrees in the period that we are talking about. So if the IPCC sums are correct, your plums and tomatoes are goners because of a 0.3 degree raise in average temps. You could give us your location so we could cross-check the infallible BoM records, which, in many rural places, show absolutely no trend for the timeframe we are talking about.

    So a bit of hot weather kills your fruit, and that’s proof we all need to drastically reduce our electricity usage because we are killing the planet from ‘AGW’.

    However, any cold snap that would also kill your tomatoes and plum yields, well, that’s just weather.

    Hotter temperatures – incontrovertible proof of AGW, that only a coward would ignore.

    Colder temperatures – well, that’s just weather.

    You’re like a talentless heckler in the front row of a comedy show that doesn’t realise the entire audience is laughing at you, not with you. The reason we keep bringing up cold weather is because you keep missing the point, and it’s funny when you poke holes in your own logic.

    Go on- tell us the one about money printing and endless borrowing being the key to economic prosperity again. That’s my favourite. Or the one about the Government not having a savings account. That’s a crack-up as well. It would be a real thigh-slapper in Penny Wongs office.

    And I didn’t even make fun of your peak oil AGW pollution conflation. Because I’ll just assume that was mistakes made in a typing frenzy to correct all us uninformed types.

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  • #
    Hammo

    Mark@1146

    Couldn’t agree more. Why is this not the number 1 issue of concern. I manage a business in an area of high unemployment thinking staff would be easy to find, but they are too busy sitting at home on the dole watching their Big Screen TV that they bought with the last Rudd payout, to even bother turning up for a job interview.

    And now my tax rate is being put up from 30% to 32% in the name of a Carbon Tax to help compensate these “no income earners” for the extra cost of electricity.

    I am not the polluter, I have energy efficient lights and appliances, a small car, no plasma or LCD tv, yet my tax bill is going up along with everyone else in Australia who is on the average wage or above. This tax was never about a price on carbon, it was always about the socialist redistribution of wealth to encourage more people to work less, looking after Green voters so Bob Brown and his mates would continue to get re-elected.

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    Maxine

    Phil, you really should look to some decent climate sites.

    One tipping point is that as Arctic ice coverage shrinks, which it has been doing, then sunlight hits, and is absorbed by dark ocean where formerly it was largely reflected back into space.

    I take it no one here disputes Arctic (and Antarctic) ice is shrinking? Not even Bolt does anymore.

    Due to warming in the Arctic circle clathrates containing methane are melting as the tundra melts, releasing the rather high greenhouse-effect molecule methane. This could be reversed, halting the build up of GHGs but if not reversed this melting will accelerate and warming will proceed rapidly regardless of actions mankind can take.

    Somebody above was trying to say scientists were conflating the heat island effects of large cities for AGW. Garbage. Satellites, the vast array of oceanic monitoring buoys etc are not near any large cities. Nope, it is all AGW I am afraid.

    Hydrocarbons on a moon of Jupiter? I rather think they will stay there. Peak oil has been passed. The huge numbers of newly affluent Indian and chinese workers are buying cars in huge numbers. We would need to find another oilfield the size of the one under Arabia—Saudi, Kuwait, Iraq, Iran etc and that would likely be pumped dry in 50 years or less due to the burgeoning numbers of new car owners in Asia. We may find some big oilfields, like the one off the coast of Brazil, but they will very likely be deep-sea fields, difficult and expensive to mine and subject to accidents as happened in the Mexican Gulf a couple of years ago.

    We have a LOT more coal than oil and can convert coal into oil—the Germans did that in both world wars—but if that happens easily worked coal deposits will soon be depleted and coal mining is a very dangerous business, costing dozens to hundred of miners their life each year.

    Oil really is old dinosaur remains—the geology of oilfields is the rocks from the dinosaur era and represent facies ( Paleontological environments) in which dinosaur bodies could collect, be buried and over time converted into oil. And global oil supplies are running out.

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    Maxine

    Hammo, only large polluters not consumers are being charged for carbon pollution. There have been no income tax rises announced or implemented.

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  • #
    Maxine

    Ho hum brc.

    I am talking about trends. The extra heat is in the hottest part of summer and you are talking about some overall average. The double bird netting cuts out 15% of sunlight. You should try it in your garden.

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  • #
    Colin Dixon

    Maxine @1162, do you know who the “largest polluters” are??

    * 62 government entities, such as local councils and State-owned enterprises.
    * 22 hospital / health care companies, encompassing 131 public and private hospitals, plus 100′s of day surgeries, clinics, aged care, rehab, palliative, mental and other health care services.
    * 19 water utility companies.
    * 19 universities.
    * 7 renewable energy companies.
    * 7 recycling companies.
    * 3 biofuels companies.
    * 3 scientific research and development companies (including the CSIRO).
    * 18 public transport companies.
    * 41 unknown, unidentifiable “companies”, including 3 whose ABN number (as provided to the NGER) is not recognised by ASIC, and 1 deregistered from ASIC.
    * 7 companies now in receivership or liquidated.

    http://barnabyisright.com/2011/07/25/the-500-biggest-polluters-exposed-everything-the-government-is-not-telling-you/

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    Hammo

    Maxine

    what rock have you been hiding under!

    the tax free threshold goes from $6000 to $18 000

    to pay for this the 15% tax rate increases to 19% and the 30% rate increases to 32 1/2%

    This means you break even at about $60 000 but then get hit with all the increases from the carbon tax. If you don’t believe me go to the governments own website calculator that they sent out with the Clean Energy Future propaganda that was made out as though we would all be better off.

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  • #
    Maxine

    brc again

    However, any cold snap that would also kill your tomatoes and plum yields, well, that’s just weather.
    Hotter temperatures – incontrovertible proof of AGW, that only a coward would ignore.
    Colder temperatures – well, that’s just weather.

    Would need to be a really really cold snap in the middle of summer! To kill the tomatoes would require frost, frost in february.

    The hotter temperatures I am talking about are those over decades. An unseasonably later cold snap in winter—the sort of thing Bolt tries to pretend proves AGW false.

    If you could actually read my posts you might make sense in reply. I am guessing from your total ignorance of gardening that you live in a home unit.

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    The Trucks are Coming...

    Maxine @ #1158

    Oil really is old dinosaur remains—the geology of oilfields is the rocks from the dinosaur era and represent facies ( Paleontological environments) in which dinosaur bodies could collect, be buried and over time converted into oil. And global oil supplies are running out.

    Maxine, There really is no danger that.
    We have plenty of faeces from old dinosaurs here.

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    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 12:06 am
    Phil, you really should look to some decent climate sites.

    One tipping point is that as Arctic ice coverage shrinks, which it has been doing, then sunlight hits, and is absorbed by dark ocean where formerly it was largely reflected back into space.

    Thank you Max, I do read lots of climate sites, yet I have not found any statements similar to what you made on any of the reputable ones (you know, the ones that use scientific principals instead of alarmist rhetoric). So again, could you show me or us, your research to arrive at the claims you made, or at least the work of others that you borrowed to make your claims? I dare say you can go around saying the moon is made of green cheese, and you are entitled to that opinion. But your opinion and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks, and nothing more.

    Please back up your claims. Or you can say “IMHO”. As I indicated, you are entitled to you O.

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    Maxine

    Yeah Hammo but I don’t think you end up worse off, would be very surprised, since the increase in the tax free threshold decreases the tax you have to pay, that 32% rate only applies on the bit over 18K. That is what I understand from the announcements that have been made.

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    Maxine

    Phil, the stuff about the increase in area of dark ocean and the clathrates are mentioned on pretty much every site I visit.

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    Oil really is old dinosaur remains—the geology of oilfields is the rocks from the dinosaur era and represent facies ( Paleontological environments) in which dinosaur bodies could collect, be buried and over time converted into oil. And global oil supplies are running out.

    Almost missed this one – It is a hypothesis, but not a fact. Indeed, the presence of liquid hydrocarbons on Saturns Moons indicate there are alternate ways of creating them other than dead dinosaurs, but since no one knows how those liquid hydrocarbons got to the moons of saturn, it remains a nice hypoothesis (one of many). Perhaps you are a fan of Star Trek and believe they (dinosaurs) had space travel before man came around?????

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    Colin Dixon

    @Hammo #1162, I agree http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/socialism.html its the socialist agenda nothing to do with “big polluters” its about the moochers getting more money for nothing (their vote), ite all lie, lie , lie. As has been said many times, “a tax that won’t fix a problem we don’t have”. Its all about the money taking it from the producers, all taxation has its basis in theft at the point of a gun.

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    Hammo

    Maxine

    do the maths its not that hard, the only way my wife and I will benefit from a carbon tax is if one of us quits work to get the government handouts and the other goes part time so our income is low enough to receive the government handouts.

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    Maxine

    Here you go Phil, have a nice read.

    http://bravenewclimate.com/2010/08/19/ccbasics3/

    There are even pictures in it, including a nice one of dinosaurs!

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    Maxine

    Hammo,

    I can’t comment further because I don’t know and don’t want to know your income etc.

    If you are making say $50,000 a year (just for arithmetical convenience) then you are now paying nothing on the first $6K and 30% on the last $44K. After the ETS is implemented you are paying nothing on the first $18K and 32% on the last $18 or $5.76k compared to the $13.2K you are paying now. That is how I understand it works tho in real life it will be more complicated.

    The $18K TFT might even get you more people wanting to do part time work!

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    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 12:22 am
    Phil, the stuff about the increase in area of dark ocean and the clathrates are mentioned on pretty much every site I visit.

    Then you would have no trouble linking to that on a science site, right?

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    Maxine

    Colin,

    Wrong. The tripling of the TFT should get more people entering the workforce. It is like the GST only with real reform of the tax system.

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    Maxine

    Phil, I did give you a link. you must have overlooked my post.

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    Colin Dixon

    Maxine #1176, thanks for the link, more proof CO2 and man is not the cause.
    “Over the last decade, the world’s rate of emissions growth has tripled, and total CO2 emissions now exceed 30 billion tonnes a year.” With no increase in warming.
    http://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures/ If as you say we are having “Peak Oil” why bother there isn’t that much left anyway.

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    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 12:30 am
    Here you go Phil, have a nice read.

    http://bravenewclimate.com/2010/08/19/ccbasics3/

    There are even pictures in it, including a nice one of dinosaurs!

    AH! I see the problem! Internet 101 – Blogs that list Real Climate on their roles are not science sites. They are ANTI-SCIENCE sites. Can you do better? Like some real science, not opinion? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when a site states:

    We, a single species, are now the agent of global change.

    That actually links to a real whacko site, that is not science, that is OPINION. Again, S-C-I-E-N-C-E.

    you made the claims, support them. Or do we take your word on faith? like religion?

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    Maxine

    I will look up your original post on the Saturnian hydrocarbons Phil—tomorrow. Getting a bit late in the night.

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    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 12:40 am
    Phil, I did give you a link. you must have overlooked my post.

    See above. But here’s one for you – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur

    Nice pictures if you know how to follow links. And that proves your point how?

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    Maxine

    Largely methane. Clouds of liquid nitrogen—yeah, should be able to tap that day after tomorrow.

    Think the chemistry on warm earth is rather different from frigid Titan and the methane (not oil) likely produced via radically different pathways than oil.

    That oil is remains of dinosaurs is not a really a theory anymore. The age and geology of oil bearing strata in every oil and gas field is pretty similar.

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    Maxine

    You already read that article???

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    Joe V.

    Why is the Carbon Tax a Tax on size, rather than on consumption ?

    Don’t lots of little consumers account for more CO2 production than one big one ?

    Now if the Chinese, say, buy lots of little companies, they’ll be fine, while the large incumbent Aussie industries take all of the Tax hit. Or am I missing something ?

    While anything that’s too big, cab just be shut down & /or transferred to China, for instance.

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    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 12:48 am
    Largely methane. Clouds of liquid nitrogen—yeah, should be able to tap that day after tomorrow.

    Think the chemistry on warm earth is rather different from frigid Titan and the methane (not oil) likely produced via radically different pathways than oil.

    That oil is remains of dinosaurs is not a really a theory anymore.

    Not a theory anymore? So it is not real? Or are you insinuating it is a fact?

    What about the null hypothesis of AGW? WHere has that been disproven? Where has the hypothesis of liquid carbon coming from dinosaurs been debunked? YOu raise more questions than you answer. I am confused. So abiogenises liquid carbon has been proven? Or disproven? How about the amino acids on asteroids? Again, you make a lot of conflicting claims that are confusing. Further clarification would be enlightening.

    BTW: Yes, why?

    [Admin note: Here's a little anchor point to find the end of the chain]

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    Maxine

    Tipping points in format suitable for the layman:

    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/02/a-handy-guide-t/

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    Maxine

    Not a theory anymore, more a scientific Law I meant—it is late, please excuse the odd slip up.

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    Maxine

    Joe V

    The ETS is a tax on pollution. A certain number of permits to pollute are issued, by 2015 these permits will be sold by auction, in 2012-15 the permits will be sold at a fixed price—it is this bit that makes some people exited, shouting “Carbon Tax, Juliar bitch!” and other idiocies. It is not a carbon tax.

    So the biggest polluters now pay to pollute and will look for lower emissions technology. Some of the cost will have to be passed on to consumers to encourage them to act—insulation, install solar hot water & solar PV panels etc, more use of public transport etc.

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    Well, who’d have thought, 1190 comments and on? What a discussion?#$%! :-)

    I’ve just added a little link at the bottom of the post that will click you to #1189 (which was the end of the chain then). I had a request for this to save scrolling time.

    I’d hate to break up a record breaking discussion like this, so don’t let me stop you. But if you like I can add a whole new thread immediately after this one just to keep the comment flow, Or I could park the first thousand comments on that hypothetical new thread, and let you continue right here… Hows that?!

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    Maxine

    Joe V

    The ETS is a tax on pollution. A certain number of permits to pollute are issued, by 2015 these permits will be sold by auction, in 2012-15 the permits will be sold at a fixed price—it is this bit that makes some people exited, shouting “Carbon Tax, Juliar bitch!” and other idiocies. It is not a carbon tax. The number of permits auctioned will be reduced over time, further inducement to polluters to reduce emissions. Pollution has been free but it will be free no longer which will make low emissions technologies more price competitive.

    So the biggest polluters now pay to pollute and will look for lower emissions technology. Some of the cost will have to be passed on to consumers to encourage them to act—insulation, install solar hot water & solar PV panels etc, more use of public transport etc.

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    Maxine

    Barry Brooks is not a mere commentator.

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    Maxine

    Colin

    Climate is still warming I am afraid. You might be looking at maxima on a temperature chart but that is not how trends or smoothed averages are calculated. I did say before that temperature fluctuates due to volcanoes, El Nino, La Nina etc.

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    Oh Right Maxine, so when the chosen ones lie, we’re idiots for pointing it out? Sheer “idiocy” eh?

    And whether it’s a tax or an ETS is irrelevant. There was no discussion of either in the election campaign — Gillard promised us a committee remember? She killed off national debate before it even started. It doesn’t matter what name the scheme comes under. The nation did not shred it, discuss it, embrace it, or analyze it during the 2010 election.

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    Maxine

    TTaC

    A bit of humor! Great! Humor has been a bit thin on the ground.

    Yup dinosaur feces and farts from cows!

    In Geol I “feces facies” was said a lot, didn’t say much for the sophist1cation of our sense of humor back then!

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    Maxine

    Sorry Joanne there sure was discussion of the ETS before the election! Gillard said she would introduce a price on carbon!

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    Wendy

    It’s kind of hard to know which points of yours, Maxine, to refute first.

    Maxine @ 1163
    Hydrocarbons on a moon of Jupiter? I rather think they will stay there. Peak oil has been passed. The huge numbers of newly affluent Indian and chinese workers are buying cars in huge numbers. We would need to find another oilfield the size of the one under Arabia—Saudi, Kuwait, Iraq, Iran etc and that would likely be pumped dry in 50 years or less due to the burgeoning numbers of new car owners in Asia. We may find some big oilfields, like the one off the coast of Brazil, but they will very likely be deep-sea fields, difficult and expensive to mine and subject to accidents as happened in the Mexican Gulf a couple of years ago.
    We have a LOT more coal than oil and can convert coal into oil—the Germans did that in both world wars—but if that happens easily worked coal deposits will soon be depleted and coal mining is a very dangerous business, costing dozens to hundred of miners their life each year.
    Oil really is old dinosaur remains—the geology of oilfields is the rocks from the dinosaur era and represent facies ( Paleontological environments) in which dinosaur bodies could collect, be buried and over time converted into oil. And global oil supplies are running out.

    Maxine@1185
    That oil is remains of dinosaurs is not a really a theory anymore. The age and geology of oil bearing strata in every oil and gas field is pretty similar.

    The amount of your misinformation continues to astound.
    How Oil is formed
    EIA Energy Kids

    as for your misinformed statement about the amounts of oil left to find…..
    Peak Oil is Wrong

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    No Maxine, Gillard said there would be a committee on carbon. 150 random people. She said they needed to reach a consensus. There was no discussion about which industries Carbon pricing would apply to — or at what cost, or how many degrees we’d lower world temps by. Keep trying… no banana for you.

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    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 1:40 am
    Tipping points in format suitable for the layman:

    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/02/a-handy-guide-t/

    That is nice. So again, where is the proof? I did not ask for “what is the definition of a tipping point”, but where are they indeed facts?

    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 1:44 am
    Not a theory anymore, more a scientific Law I meant—it is late, please excuse the odd slip up.

    So a “consensus” of scientists passed a law? And that relates to science how? (Other than who did it.) Again, while abiogenesis is a new hypothesis, it has some standing. Where did the liquid hydrocarbons come from on other worlds? Why are there amino acids on meteorites? Were Dinosaurs space travelers? Do you understand the scientific principals? Or are you just repeating talking points given out by the high priest of AGW?

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    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 1:50 am
    Joe V

    The ETS is a tax on pollution. A certain number of permits to pollute are issued, by 2015 these permits will be sold by auction,

    Great! Then why is it not called a tax on polution? WHy the smoke and mirrors about armegeddon?

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    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 1:56 am
    Colin

    Climate is still warming I am afraid.

    It very well may be (although not in the last 15 years). So what? It has warmed and cooled throughout the history of the planet. No one here is denying climate change. What is in doubt, and what we are seeking proof of, is the A part of AGW. As yet, you have offered no proof of that.

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    Roy Hogue

    Maxine is fast becoming a synonym for the verb, to bloviate!

    Jack…err, Jane of all subjects and master of none if you ask me. There’s apparently nothing about which she’s not the world’s leading authority. I think we’ve another one who’s a legend in her own mind!

    If this is an example of under 50 then give me over 50 any day.

    Where do these people come from?

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    TheTrucks are Coming ....

    Maxine @ 1195:-
    You say:-

    So the biggest polluters now pay to pollute and will look for lower emissions technology.

    Thankyou Maxine, but forgive me for being simplistic.

    Why don’t All the ‘polluters’ pay to ‘pollute’, because sure as I live & breathe, we all do ?

    It looks the Govt it just penalising large scale production, while using them as unpaid tax collectors (and charging them for that privilege). Where’s the equity in that ?

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    Maxine @ 1200

    Julia is a lawyer and speaks in legalese to hide the truth of her agenda. Obfuscation of the truth using her lawyers language skills is dishonest and much the same as lying. If she can’t speak in plain english – clearly understood – no ambiguity, then she is not to be trusted and should be turfed out at the earliest opportunity.

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    Maxine

    Sorry Roy but I have studied geology and economy at university, at two different times.

    I try and keep up to date. That doesn’t mean reading Bolt or Akerman or any of those populist “commentators.”

    I am actually an over 60 as someone here almost worked out correctly.

    Why all these personal attacks on me? Why not try and open your mind a bit and observe, visit sites that contain proper science?

    The globe is demonstrably warming. Said warming is closely correlated with increasing CO2/methane/nitrous oxide etc levels in the atmosphere which in turn start with the onset of industrialisation. The results of this warming are all about you.

    For example, 2-3 years ago I was a steward at a dog obedience trial on a winter day. It was a miserable day, cold windy and so much rain judges needed plastic covers over their score sheets to try and keep them dry.

    The comment from the more senior judges was “this is how winter trials used to be.” Used to be.

    Phil, it has kept on warming over the last 15 years—you cannot take statistics on temperature just be looking at maxima.

    There is a whole IPCC on the science on the greenhouse effect. The science of global warming is not in dispute—apart from frauds like Monckton. I am not a climatologist and have not been a practising scientist for a while now so I am afraid you will need to refer to the IPCC reports Phil.

    The pollution in question are GHG emissions and the ETS, even in the period of the fixed price permits is not a carbon tax. It has been called a price on pollution by the govt, Phil.

    Scientic Laws are not “passed” by an assemblage of scientists. A scientific law is something demonstrably true. Law of gravity (a laymans term but you cannot break it—you fall off the roof of your house you will land on the ground every single time.

    Boyles law—must remember that from HS physics. So observations that no matter how many times you repeat them you get the same result. These are not theories, Boyle’s law doesn’t explain anything it just says that the pressure inside an a mount of gas is inversely proportional to the pressure that gas is under and so it is.

    So oil is found in Cretaceous, Jurassic and Triassic aged sedimentary rocks.

    Extra terrestrial hydrocarbons and amino acids are firstly way off topic and can be produced by non-biological means. Hydrogen and carbon are two of the most common elements around, why is it surprising they are found in chemical combination on asteroids, moons etc?

    Joanne, the result of the election saw a hung parliament and a minority Labor government for only the second time (I believe) and you have to go back to the Parliament in the very early 1940s when Menzies was PM at the head of the United Australia Party with the support of 2 independents. The two independents lost confidence in Menzies and Curtin, our greatest ever PM, founder of the postwar prosperity who laid the groundwork for the Reserve Bank, the post war immigration, the Snowy Mountain and other schemes to create work for the migrants and returning servicemen, became PM.

    So the panel of citizens had to be ditched at Green insistence and the ridiculous hybrid ETS introduced. So great things can be achieved with minority government but that obviously imposes restraints that governing with a comfortable majority does not.

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    Wendy

    Maxine @ 1163
    BTW, it’s not the “Mexican Gulf”, it’s the Gulf of Mexico AND we do NOT “mine” for oil/gas, we “drill” for it. How many courses in geology did you take?
    In addition, oil and gas reservoirs in the Gulf of Mexico include Eocene, Miocene, Pliocene and Pleistocene strata.

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    Maxine

    TTaC

    The Rudd and Gillard govts are lower taxing than Howard’s govt was.

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    brc

    Maxine

    Why all these personal attacks on me?

    Because you keep making ridiculous arguments.

    visit sites that contain proper science?

    Are you saying this site doesn’t contain ‘proper science’? I’m sure Jo would like you to point out where she is wrong.

    Said warming is closely correlated with increasing CO2/methane/nitrous oxide etc levels in the atmosphere which in turn start with the onset of industrialisation.

    Surely in those grab-bag of degrees you have you remember the line ‘correlation does not prove causation. But lack of correlation does disprove causation’.

    For example, 2-3 years ago I was a steward at a dog obedience trial on a winter day. It was a miserable day, cold windy and so much rain judges needed plastic covers over their score sheets to try and keep them dry. The comment from the more senior judges was “this is how winter trials used to be.” Used to be.

    Here we go again. Anecdotal evidence to prove your point. At one point you implore us to listen to the BoM, but when the BoM says ‘no warming for 10 years’ you implore us to listen to your plums, tomatoes and dog-show judges. But if I throw up some anecdotal evidence to disprove your point; viz record breaking blizzards in New Zealand, it is hand-waved away with ‘it’s just weather’, and by the way, all weather proves my point anyway.

    which leads into things like :

    it has kept on warming over the last 15 years—you cannot take statistics on temperature just be looking at maxima.

    So we should stop using the BoM, NASA, CSIRO etc information when it doesn’t fit the narrative. Because all those datasets show no warming in the last 10 years or so. While co2 emissions climb in a straight line. Remember ‘correlation does not prove causation’. Otherwise I can prove that mobile phones cause wars in Afghanistan.

    Scientic Laws are not “passed” by an assemblage of scientists. A scientific law is something demonstrably true.

    Hoo-fricken-ray. Science is something that is demonstrably true. And AGW is not demonstrably true. If it were, most people would believe in this, rather than the other way around. If it were demonstrably true, you would link to the empirical evidence that proves it and we’d all agree with you, just like gravity. But it’s not, is it? Even after something like $50 billion spent on trying to prove it, it’s still unproven. Still not demonstrably true after 30 years and untold amounts of money. And even if we get to the point where we can accurately predict global average temperatures, we’re still a long way from proving that they will be ‘catastrophic’, which, after all, is the argument for spending trillions ‘doing something’. And the reverse is also true : scientific theories have a way to be proven demonstrably untrue. But CAGW doesn’t have this feature – everything is evidence that the planet is warming, rain, hail, shine, cold or hot, it all proves the theory, doesn’t it? If you don’t agree with me on this, tell us all what would disprove your theory? Even the exalted climate scientists at the heart of the whole machination are beginning to have their doubts, yet their brave foot soldiers see nothing in the theory they don’t like, and nothing in the theory that can’t be linked to all the ills they see in the world.

    The pollution in question are GHG emissions and the ETS, even in the period of the fixed price permits is not a carbon tax. It has been called a price on pollution by the govt

    You might want to tell Julia Gillard about this one. I’m sure she’d be happy to know it’s not a tax. Oh, she already tried that one and quickly retracted that idea of rebranding. Call it what you will – an amount of money forcibly removed from you by the government is a tax. Call it a levy, a fine, whatever, if the government is taking it and you pay or go to jail, it’s a tax. This applies to the ETS as well. You can dress it up in a free market costume and parade it around and call it a market based solution, but the simple matter is it’s just a variably priced tax, with the price manipulated and enforced by governments. If you don’t believe me, I ask you which other ‘free’ markets have price floors which are fixed to increase with time, exist only by government dictat and where the supply can be altered at a moments notice by an unelected official deciding to release or withhold supply. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck…. you can dance around with semantic arguments until your rhetorical feet hurt, but an ETS is a tax. Sure, the price might revert from fully-fixed at $23 to fixed within a price range, but that’s just a giant load of marketing BS in order to provide trading houses the volatility to trade derivatives on it and to try and do a snow-job on people who associate ‘free market’ with better outcomes. Just because it is variable, it does’t alter the fact it’s a tax. If it was a free market, the price would be allowed to trade at the level people freely choose. And we already know what that price is: zero. So don’t pretend to lecture us with this ‘it’s not a tax’ crap because we know better.

    So the panel of citizens had to be ditched at Green insistence and the ridiculous hybrid ETS introduced.

    Exactly. So you agree with Jo then. Julia Gillard did not promise an ETS or a Carbon Tax during this term of government. In fact she explicitly ruled it out and stuck to Rudd’s promise of a postponement until 2013. If you remember this time 12 months ago, the GetUp crew were actually protesting against her for “not taking action on climate change”.

    You will get laughed at all the while you post your factoids and theories which are ridiculously easy to poke holes in. The fact that you post comment after comment without reply speaks more to the point people can’t be bothered shooting down the same tired old talking points for the 1000th time. If you’d been around this site for a while, you’d understand why people find it amusing when someone new finds it and comes in and starts posting rubbish about ‘tipping points’ and ‘extreme weather’ and all the other bits and pieces.

    But I must admit, the ‘governemnts should run endless deficits, because they don’t have a bank account to store a surplus in’ bit was genuinely new and amusing.

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    Maxine

    http://www.eia.gov/kids/energy.cfm?page=oil_home-basics

    Had a look at that. Complete bollocks. Stuff that falls on the seafloor won’t be around hundreds of billions of years later—study tectonics for a bit, there was an excellent account of it on ABC TV in relation to the recent Jap eathquake and tsunami, watch it here:

    http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#/view/814381

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    Maxine

    brc

    If you think I make ridiculous comments then disprove them. Personal comments, and I have received plenty, have no place. They are also water off a duck’s back so don’t was time on insults that could be spent on debate

    This site brings up fake science all the time. I have posited a hypothesis why that is: people see the effect of AGW and it scares them so they try and pretend it isn’t happening.

    Anecdotal evidence? But again, pointing to a real trend, talking of decades, I put the anecdotal evidence in a context. I am not saying—frost, so no AGW nonsense like Bolt etc talk. All this is easily verified anyway.

    The BoM has not said no warming for 10 years. Each of the last few decades have been warmer than the preceding decade.

    There is that correlation. There is that fact that CO2 (CO too tho that isn’t a GHG) and methane and the like let through higher wavelengths (light) but not the shorter wavelengths (heat) of that reflected off the ground, water etc.

    Listening to Cate trying to say minority govt is bad, dangerous etc. Horse hockey—HM times have the Libs won govt because the Nats/CP in coalition brought the number of coalition seats to a majority? Overseas, with PR voting, minority govts are more common.

    AGW could indeed be proven untrue—if temperatures drop over the next 50 years we will know it is untrue. But so far the science of AGW is holding up alarmingly well. We also do not have time to sit back and debate this—need to act to avoid various tipping points from being reached.

    It is an ETS not a tax. Rather foolishly IMHO Gillard said wtte “Let us not play semantic games and call it a tax” but if you look up how a carbon tax would work you would see the proposed ETS, even in its fixed price period, is nothing like a carbon tax. Gillard did say she would introduce a carbon price and she is. No broken promises there.

    Maybe people can’t shoot holes in my theories etc that I post?

    I also posited way back that Perth’s dams would be at effectively zero capacity this summer. Have a look at the BuMet site, they are indeed confirming that.

    Look when you destroy carbon sinks on land—the forests—and on sea—the phytolankton as well as emitting CO2 etc in the air in huge quantitities, gases known to have a greenhouse effect, do you really think you are going to have no effect on temperatures? Really?

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    Wendy

    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 11:28 am
    http://www.eia.gov/kids/energy.cfm?page=oil_home-basics

    Had a look at that. Complete bollocks. Stuff that falls on the seafloor won’t be around hundreds of billions of years later—study tectonics for a bit, there was an excellent account of it on ABC TV in relation to the recent Jap eathquake and tsunami, watch it here:

    http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#/view/814381

    What’s the matter? Wasn’t it simple enough for you??? For someone who has had rudimentary geology you sure aren’t remembering ANY of the subject matter.
    BTW, you’re right…..stuff falling on the seafloor won’t be around hundreds of billions of years because the earth is only 4.5 billion years old.
    That video is only available to Australia. DUH.

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    Maxine

    To lessen your ignorance of the science of climate and to see how it is still poorly understood by even the best scientific minds:

    YouTube, “Jasper Kirkby:The Cloud Experiment at CERN”

    Jasper Kirkby is a particle physicist.

    The notion that CO2 is a pollutant and the main factor of your arguements is wrong.

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    Mark

    Maxine:

    It is your democratic right to believe anything that the IPCC tells you. It is not your democratic right to ram it down other’s throats. Paricularly when it’s the “others” who will be paying for it. You prefer to ignore that the IPCC has enthusiastically and shamelessly published “gray” material from Green activist organisations as fact .

    If you choose to ignore public statements from various IPCC and UN figures that the AGW scam was never about science so much as a wealth redistribution on a world wide scale that is your right but at least recognise that others might not choose to ignore such statements.

    If you choose to believe the “scientists” attached to the IPCC who strenuously resist attempts to access their data and provide transparency, not to mention who have been shown to falsify and fudge data, that also is your right. Just don’t expect others to be as gullible as you.

    If you choose to believe that everything proves the AGW hypothesis and nothing disproves it then your education was truly a waste of time and money. That’s religion, Maxine, not science.

    And lest I forget. Fossil fuels the remains of dinosaurs? Dear oh dear, Maxine.

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    brc

    Ok Maxine, let’s go back to basics seeing as you believe this entire site is a collection of cowards cowering from ‘the truth’.

    1. None of the reasonable educated people here are saying that co2 and other GHG won’t have an effect on the atmoshphere. They will. Even your bete noires of Andrew Bolt and Christopher Monckton agree to that. I agree with that, add co2, and you will add some warming.
    2. The argument in question is that of the climate sensitivity to co2 and the model of ‘tipping points’ and runaway global warming. The sensitivity is obviously a lot lower than the IPCC predictions because of the failure of the temperatures to keep up with the models, which have a predictive ability of zero. This is not in dispute as none of the IPCC models have gone close to actually aligning with reality. None of the empirical data matches the output from the computer models. None of it.
    3. The tipping points are based directly on computer models, and the models must be wrong. They must be wrong because they rely on melted sea ice and released methane from permafrosts. The Earth has been warmer in the recent past, during the Medieval Warming period, and there was no runaway global warming. The Earth has been warmer in the distant past, and there was no runaway warming. Ergo, from all availble evidence, runaway warming must not exist because powerful feedback mechanisms must exist to keep the planetary temperature within a range. I’ve no idea what they are, but feedback loops must have a break in them or we wouldn’t be here.
    4. Any Tax collected (any money taken from private citizens by threat of force from the government is a tax, no matter what you want to brand it as) cannot possibly stop any effect of extra co2 in the next 50-100 years, because the technology to cost-effectively replace the existing technology is not politically or technologically viable. The only way to prevent extra co2 from being released is to stop the use of technology which releases it, which means a drastic reduction in living standards for people. No matter whether you’re a totalitarian state or a democracy, it’s not going to fly with the people, and those that try will end up hanging from real or virtual electoral lamp posts. If you want to go back to your economics degree, you’ll find game theory a useful way of studying this particular problem. Any nation can gain an advantage over others by lying or ignoring global mandates to reduce production of co2 from cheap energy, so they all do it eventually. China is a bright,shining example of saying one thing and doing another, because they can see the advantages to doing so. It’s also the reason grand treaties on banning warfare have always failed.
    5. Even if you did effectively manage to implement these regressive taxes, the climate sensitivity is unknown (see point 2) so you might not change anything.
    6. Even if the global warms somewhat, it’s not known if this will be catastrophic or beneficial. Again, we can look to the recent past, where temperatures were warmer, and see that adaption was possible, but also probably beneficial. Cold kills more than heat.

    So, the models are unproven and have a predictive capability of zero. The taxes to be imposed will not have any effect on the inputs to the models, so even if the models are correct, that taxes have no effect. Even if the models are correct and the taxes work, it’s likely you’ll still get warming. And even if the models are correct and the taxes work somewhat and some future amount of warming is averted, it’s unknown and unprovable whether this would be net negative or net positive for the people of the planet.

    But you’re welcome to pay as many taxes as you like to this grand scheme to change the weather. Just excuse the rest of us for not agreeing with you. And while you’re at it, you can move to some other country where endless deficits are a good thing for the economy. In your alternate country you can all pay 100% of your earnings to control the weather, or maybe the governemnt can borrow billions per year in deficits and spend that money to control the weather. As long as they don’t deposit it in the bank accounts that they don’t have.

    You should also tell the owner of this site (Jo) where she has posted ‘fake science’. I’m sure she would like to know so she can correct it, or you.

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    Maxine @ 1213

    The fact that the rainfall has dropped by around 10 – 15% in the last 40 or so years on the west side of the rabbit proof fence has everything to do with the wholesale clearing of Mallee scrub and not your professed notion of CO2 “pollution.”

    According to a CSIRO article I read a while back, trees act as an electrolyte between the cloud and the ground. Remove trees and you alter the rainfall pattern.

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    Billy-Bob

    Jo

    Perhaps Maxine can explain this. Even the most ardent AGW believers must take some heed of exactly what is science and what is not.

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    I have just moved 1000 comments to an overflow thread to manage the download times.
    http://joannenova.com.au/2011/07/overflow-thread-convoy-of-no-confidence/

    So add “1000″ to the comment numbers (top right of each comment) above to make sense of the conversation (or substract 1000 from the number referred too in the comment.
    Cheers!

    Jo

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    brc

    Joanne @ (1)227 : download speed was just fine for me. Funny that, because some people tell me we need to spend $40b to fix up download speeds ;P

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    Maxine

    brc

    That might be today for a mostly-text board. Would be less OK If it was video, would be less OK if others in your household were also up/downloading. Most people don’t get good speeds and their speeds decrease as wireless networks get more congested and the copper CAN continues to deteriorate.

    Some are a bit more visionary and see the value and opportunities in a rebuild/update of our communications system:

    Demetriou hints at AFL TV

    ANDREW Demetriou has floated the possibility the AFL’s latest television rights deal, which will provide $1.12 billion over the next five years, could be its last.

    The league’s chief executive has provocatively suggested that instead of allowing television networks to broadcast matches, and then keep the resulting advertising and subscription proceeds, the AFL could stream matches directly to customers of the national broadband network.

    The plan would be in keeping with an AFL strategy to increase its profit margins, which has included creating an in-house media division to offset the profit-diminishing influence of middlemen.

    ”We are trying to control as much as we can control and not deal with as many third parties. That is where we see upside in the revenue,” Demetriou said on TheConversation.edu.au.

    ”We are already planning for our next broadcast rights in five years … that is how sophisticated it has become. Where are the next revenue streams coming from and what is the next big ticket item?”

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/d … z1VGJSBaas

    After AFL will come deals with thugby, cricket, golf, tennis etc. The NBN will be a screaming success creating skilled jobs and making huge returns. But I will ask Conroy and NBN Co to leave you on your present “satisfactory” speeds. Geesus!

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    Maxine

    Hide the decline—which got some deniers’ heart pounding—related to a parametric series of temperature measurements, to do with dendochronology IIRC. Nought to do with the measurements of atmospheric/oceanic warming I am afraid.

    A parameter—something that stands in for something else in mathematical/scientific reasoning. In this case a series of measurements of tree rings covering a long time. For some reason the tree ring data showed a decline in temperatures in the later part of the series, a decline not mirrored in other, more direct measurements as I said.

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    Maxine

    Kevin you are quite right about the darker native vegetation generating more rainfall. Both sides of that fence are declining tho. Can see a third desal plant being started in Perth soon—it has 2 already I believe?

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    Gee Aye

    Hide the decline—which got some deniers’ heart pounding—related to a parametric series of temperature measurements, to do with dendochronology IIRC. Nought to do with the measurements of atmospheric/oceanic warming I am afraid.
    A parameter—something that stands in for something else in mathematical/scientific reasoning. In this case a series of measurements of tree rings covering a long time. For some reason the tree ring data showed a decline in temperatures in the later part of the series, a decline not mirrored in other, more direct measurements as I said.

    A parameter is a variable not a stand in. It is one aspect of some thing (vague I know but it has a broad meaning that is certainly not “stand in”). I’ve done a little maths and stats over the years – no not writing from authority just flagging that I might be not be just making it up. Are you?

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    Maxine

    Not saying the entire site. I have seen indications that there are quite a few who are I think trying to hide the obvious fact of AGW because it scares them, it involves changes and that frightens some. Someone just last thought the change to 32% marginal rate meant he would pay 32% on his entire income which is not the case.

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    Maxine

    A parameter IS something that stands in or is used for something else, another variable.

    In market research etc they calculate parameters: mean. variance etc of their sample and use that instead of the population mean etc because it costs way to much money and time to survey the entire population each time and doing destructive tests on every item of product made is obviously ridiculous. Non-parametric statistical tests like Chi square can test hypothesis without worrying about population or sample means etc.

    In the Climate Unit dendochronology was a parameter for temperature—we can’t go back 2000 years and measure what the temperature was!

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    Maxine

    brc the ETS is not a regressive measure. The GST was.

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    Maxine

    TTaC 213

    I don’t know exactly why they chose the biggest polluters. I assume target those who would give the biggest bang for the buck, give the biggest effect and be cheapest to administer.

    But when big companies start innovating with energy efficiency, with using sources of energy with low emissions I think you will find smaller businesses will in turn have to innovate. Householders too will need to innovate to reduce energy costs.

    The NBN that I mentioned today will have a part to play with virtual meetings and more working from home. This will be radically different from telecommuting now—telepresence gives a real feeling of being there.

    The next 20 years will be interesting times! I can’t wait!

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    Maxine

    Gas comes from coal not oil. So those tertiary strata gas deposits you mentioned come from coal.

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    Maxine

    I said oil, petroleum are the remain of dinosaurs. Obviously not fossil dinosaurs.

    Hmmm Andrew Bolt and Mockton are not my beta noirs. Just people pushing an agenda and using rubbish to do so. sucking in a lot of people oh so eager to be told the boogyman is not coming and that AGW is not coming and dreck like that. Absolute dreck.

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    Maxine

    Fossil fuels are called that for a reason you know.

    Petroleum— fossil animals, dinosaurs

    Coal, methane—fossil plants

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    Maxine

    brc 224

    If you are talking about temperature trends based on a few maxima—and most “cooling” proponents do—then your point is invalid as temperatures are not measured that way.

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    Tel

    Fossil fuels are called that for a reason you know.

    Something I’ve been wondering about that… where did the dinosaurs come from?

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    Maxine

    Kevin, watching your youtube.

    WAs very struck by how the lecturer there spent a fair bit of time talking about albedo. Phil the Dill I think was saying albedo etc not important, so I am vindicated there. Good Youtube, will get back to it now.

    BTW water vapor is the most ubiquitous GHG there is—thing is, we can’t control it all that well which is why CO2, MH4 etc are studied—these are the GHG we emit.

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    Maxine

    I see where that YouTube is going.

    Problem is, even if cloud cover is less when we get less cosmic rays so we have a low albedo and hence warming. Even if all that was true it is still irrelevant.

    We need to move to a low carbon way of life. That old Peak oil thing.

    GHG emissions have to be reduced because the oceans are acidifying.

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    Ben

    Maxine @ 238

    I said oil, petroleum are the remain of dinosaurs.

    I have to disagree with you there Maxine. It is derived from plant matter, plankton etc. Not dinosaurs.

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    Wendy

    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 7:23 pm
    Gas comes from coal not oil. So those tertiary strata gas deposits you mentioned come from coal.

    So what comes out of the NW Shelf???? Hint: there isn’t ANY coal out there.

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    Maxine

    Like people of certain religious denominations you put your fingers in your ears when confronted with evidence which opposes your dogma.

    Anyhow, re fossil fuels,their origin and the production of methane,you may wish to look at these sites:

    Thomas Gold and the future of methane as a fuel.

    Discovery News, Bacteria Turn Coal and Oil Into Renewable Energy.

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    Maxine

    Sorry ben, plant matter ==> coal.

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    Maxine

    Assuming that reaches commercial scale, Kevin, that would be good. I did predict if oil really did run out/got priced at astronomical rates coal to oil would be the first thing that would be done.

    But it doesn’t reduce GHG emissions I am afraid. And would be costly. Better to move to low carbon energy sources. Coal stocks would get hammered and the price of that would also rise.

    Wendy, yes they find gas on the NW shelf. Doesn’t mean there isn’t coal there, just how can you get coal out of a seam under half a kilometre of sea and 2Km of rocks?. Why not contact Woodside Petroleum and ask.

    I do remember when in geol III we had to log cores from wells Santos had drilled. There was a bloody thick seam of coal in the column. this was from the Coopers Basin gas field.

    I am an atheist I am afraid Kevin—and love that you are now accusing me of doing what I said many on this site did: shut their minds and heart against the evidence of AGW that they have seen with their own eyes.

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    Maxine @ 236

    You say,

    “The next 20 years will be interesting times, I can’t wait.”

    Unless there is divine intervention, in 20 years time Australia will be a colony of China.

    Did you know that The Commonwealth of Australia is a corporation registered on the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission?

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    Maxine

    Tel

    I don’t know how serious you are but basically life arose in the ocean, probably around “dark volcanoes” of nutrient rich water, developed and moved onto land. Of vertebrates fish developed first and some made it onto land and developed into amphibians. Not just toads and frogs, quite a wide range of shapes and sizes of amphibians, all limited by thin skin and the need to lay their spawn, eggs in water.

    Just before the Mesozoic (dinosaur) era there was a mass extinction event and most amphibian species died out.

    Reptiles became the new dominant land animal (dominant in the sea too) and had the evolutionary advantages over amphibians of a thicker skin that lost a lot less water than the amphibian skin did and their eggs developed a thick casing and so no longer needed to be laid in water. Starting with small, agile dinosaurs with all ecological niches open to them they developed a huge range of types and sizes.

    Funnily enough when the dinosaurs died off in another mass extinction event what came after them was birds—mammals still had to wait their turn to strut the world stage in the dominant role. Then again, birds are just dinosaurs with wings and feathers!

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    Maxine

    Wowee Kevin!

    I don’t think so because in 20 years time our minerals will have pretty much been dug up and shipped off. In the 50s you would have said we belonged to the US.

    Come on, wake up and smell the coffee! The next two decades will be pivotal! I will be in my mid eighties by the end of those two decades but look forward to them nevertheless!

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    Maxine

    Slight correction to the coal to methane

    “Discovery News, Bacteria Turn Coal and Oil Into Renewable Energy.” Coal is not renewable energy, it is a finite fossil fuel.

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    Maxine

    You Said, “basically life arose in the ocean”

    Can you take us back to the beginning?

    Where did life come from?

    Have the elements of the periodic table an intelligence?

    Do you know of any scientist who has made a life by combining the earths elements?

    So what is life?

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    Maxine,

    Which came first,the chicken or the egg? And don’t forget the rooster!

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    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 10:23 am

    Oh, where to begin. I apologize as this is going to be a long one since Maxine has not done much research. First up:

    Phil, it has kept on warming over the last 15 years—you cannot take statistics on temperature just be looking at maxima.

    There are 2 problems with your statement. First is you do not know the difference between voodoo and statistics. In Statistics, there is a concept of “95%” certainty that a pattern is a pattern and not just random numbers. That “95% certainty” has not been met in the last 15 years. Even Phil Jones (one of your High Priests) has admitted that and “it is a shame we cannot explain it”. Second, after monkeying with the numbers, UEA decided 1998 was the hottest year on record. All well and good, but by doing so, they created a box they have not been able to escape from. In other words, yes, 1998 is the hottest in their massaged numbers, but there has been 13 years since that year that have not been hotter. Hence, there has been no warming since then. You are just wrong.

    There is a whole IPCC on the science on the greenhouse effect.

    The IPCC is supposed to be a compilation of science. In that, it is supposed to reference peer reviewed papers. unfortunately, you use it as the science. You should learn the difference. The second problem is that the AR4 used thousands of non-peer reviewed references. Most of these were of the garden variety “end of the world” hysteria that is blatantly false (2 of the big ones which you have probably not heard of since you do not read science, just the fiction of blogs) is the 2035 disappearance of the Himalayan Glaciers and the destruction of the Amazon Rain forest. Both basically bunk, but they are in there!

    The science of global warming is not in dispute

    That is a religious statement, not a scientific one. The science IS in dispute as the null theory has yet to be disproven. Which means we do not know if Gaea is burping, belching, or running a fever. And we sure have no empirical data on what is causing her temperament.

    apart from frauds like Monckton.

    The first sign of religion is to burn the heretics at the stake. Without any shred of evidence, you have damned a man. Your religion is showing through. Monckton admits he is not a scientist, but he can read science, and he reports on them. And that makes him a fraud? no, it makes you just a religious zealot.

    I am not a climatologist and have not been a practising scientist for a while now so I am afraid you will need to refer to the IPCC reports Phil.

    You never were a scientist with a response like that. I prefer to go back to the source. Again, the IPCC does not do science. It COMPILES it from sources, and as we found out, not all of them reputable.

    The pollution in question are GHG emissions and the ETS, even in the period of the fixed price permits is not a carbon tax. It has been called a price on pollution by the govt, Phil.

    What polution would that be? CO2? The necessary life blood of plants? So you would seek to destroy all plant life because some quack wants to get rid of CO2? You do realize that in order to accomplish that, all animal life would have to be erradicated since CO2 is generated by them all. But then it would be eden on Gaea with no life, right?

    Scientic Laws are not “passed” by an assemblage of scientists.

    Scientic? Well, if you mean “scientific’, you are correct, but you made the assertion, not I. And science has proposals, hypotheses, theories and facts. Laws are man’s creation. A fact is what you are looking for, and there are precious few in science. Theories are almost as good as facts, as they have been proven, through testing, to be true (but they have not been demonstrated to be infallible, hence why they are theories not facts). So far, none of that has been done for AGW. In fact, the null hypothesis has yet to be disproven, so it still stands. Do you know what that is? Before going any further, state it. Then we can have a rational discussion. otherwise, you are simply an accolyte in a religion.

    Boyles law—must remember that from HS physics. So observations that no matter how many times you repeat them you get the same result. These are not theories, Boyle’s law doesn’t explain anything it just says that the pressure inside an a mount of gas is inversely proportional to the pressure that gas is under and so it is.

    They are called “laws”, but in fact they are just theories or facts. Take your pick.

    So oil is found in Cretaceous, Jurassic and Triassic aged sedimentary rocks.

    It appears it is also found in other formations on Triton too. But just for your education, I will tell you how you are wrong on that one (since Abiogenesis is still just a working hypothesis). Coal is old dinosaurs. Oil is old marine life. So get over your ignorance.

    Extra terrestrial hydrocarbons and amino acids are firstly way off topic and can be produced by non-biological means. Hydrogen and carbon are two of the most common elements around, why is it surprising they are found in chemical combination on asteroids, moons etc?

    Who made you high priest of AGW? They are indeed on topic since if they exist, that means there is an abiogenesis method of hydrocarbon production. It does not mean the hydorcarbons on earth were made that way, but is an alternative. In other words, it blows the theory of dinosaurs (marine life for the educated) out the window. The creation of oil could be ongoing and even increasing since we do not know why or how. What would kill the idea of the depletion of oil and how we MUST run away and live like cave men. So it is on topic, but I understand it is very inconvenient for your religious beliefs.

    I have a suggestion. I know you will ignore it, but I would be remiss if I did not make it. Read the science, not the blogs. Read Lindzen, Pielke (jr and sr), Spencer and Dyson. Expand your horizon. A skeptic is not one who “beleives without question”, he is the questioner. So whether we have AGW or not is open for debate and research with skeptics. Not with the high priests of the new global religion however as they believe “the science is settled”. Only a fool beleives the science is settled.

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    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 11:48 am
    brc

    If you think I make ridiculous comments then disprove them.

    No, it is up to you to prove them. If I say the moon is made of green cheese, no one has to “disprove” them. I have to prove them. You were never a scientist. You do not understand even the basics.

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    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 11:48 am
    This site brings up fake science all the time.

    Prove it. Accusations are cheap, facts are too expensive for you to buy.

    AGW could indeed be proven untrue

    WRONG! It has to be proven true first! It has not. God I am getting dumber just reading you!

    if temperatures drop over the next 50 years we will know it is untrue. But so far the science of AGW is holding up alarmingly well

    WRONG! It may not prove a thing! Is CO2 the only thing affecting the temperature? Hell no! So the other factors could come into play and cool off the planet. That would not “disprove” AGW! God you are ignorant. Enough. it is a waste of time to debate an idiot ,and you just proved yourself one.

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    Tel

    … life arose in the ocean, probably around “dark volcanoes” of nutrient rich water, developed and moved onto land.

    Hmmm, interesting.

    What was in those nutrients? Any hydrocarbons?

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    Maxine

    Ummm Phil this:

    WRONG! It has to be proven true first! It has not.

    Is wrong. A theory is hypothesised and tested. It could be found to be true or false at this stage.

    You need to talk to the IPCC to point out where they have made mistakes in their work. Good luck with that.

    You have some weird and wonderful notions!

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    Maxine

    I doubt there would be hydrocarbons in the water coming out of those vents. Sulphur, sulphides, stuff like that. Minerals.

    You don’t expect petroleum to be found in a normal type of volcano do you? These “Black volcanoes” or “dark smokers” are superheated water from the earths crust, mineral rich so when a fissure develops in the earths crust and the superheated water shoots out as steam, hits the cold ocean which precipitates minerals and so a chimney gradually builds up, a bit like a volcanic cone..

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    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 10:31 pm
    Ummm Phil this:

    WRONG! It has to be proven true first! It has not.

    Is wrong. A theory is hypothesised and tested. It could be found to be true or false at this stage.

    God you are scientifically illiterate. My reference was to prove something untrue. Before it can be proven untrue, it has to pass the hyspothesis stage! AGW has not done that yet! What testing has been done? None! (granted that would be difficult since there is only one Gaea).
    A theory is an hypothesis that has past testing and found not to be false. It has not found to be true (that would be a fact). Just not false!!!!

    You need to talk to the IPCC to point out where they have made mistakes in their work. Good luck with that.

    I do not have to talk to them, as others have done the work. Donna Laframboise and Anthony Watts already have documented them. If you would get your head out of the communion wine and actually read some research, you would know that.

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    My typos are atrocious. Angry blogging is a no-no. The second line should be “hypothesis” and the second paragraph is “passed”

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    Maxine

    So much emotion:
    WRONG! It may not prove a thing! Is CO2 the only thing affecting the temperature? Hell no! So the other factors could come into play and cool off the planet. That would not “disprove” AGW!

    Yup and if there were no other factors discovered/observed then AGW would be disproved. I have already indicated that volcanoes, La Nina/el Nino affect temperatures for a year or two, maybe longer sometimes.

    But the factors causing forcing etc are pretty well understood. I would not bet on AGW being “disproved” any time soon.

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    Maxine

    The second line should be “hypothesis” and the second paragraph is “passed”

    Maybe that should be “pissed”?

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    Maxine

    The IPCC is supposed to be a compilation of science. In that, it is supposed to reference peer reviewed papers. unfortunately, you use it as the science. You should learn the difference. The second problem is that the AR4 used thousands of non-peer reviewed references. Most of these were of the garden variety “end of the world” hysteria that is blatantly false (2 of the big ones which you have probably not heard of since you do not read science, just the fiction of blogs) is the 2035 disappearance of the Himalayan Glaciers and the destruction of the Amazon Rain forest. Both basically bunk, but they are in there!

    None of this involved the core science of AGW.

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    Maxine

    Maybe you should read:

    http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-cooling-intermediate.htm

    WUWT has a long history of getting stuff wrong. Pseudoscience.

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    Maxine

    The Sun is not stable in that its energy output varies.

    If the energy output of the Sun lessens will CO2 continue to force temperature rises?

    A couple of sites here might be of interest:

    Space Weather.com

    http://www.ratical.org/co-globalize/HAARPbg.html

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    Wendy

    Maxine @ (1)248

    Wendy, yes they find gas on the NW shelf. Doesn’t mean there isn’t coal there, just how can you get coal out of a seam under half a kilometre of sea and 2Km of rocks?. Why not contact Woodside Petroleum and ask.

    I do remember when in geol III we had to log cores from wells Santos had drilled. There was a bloody thick seam of coal in the column. this was from the Coopers Basin gas field.

    Well, I was slightly wrong….there are some coal seams in the Mungaroo Fm. in the Carnarvon Basin/NW Shelf, however, the majority of source rocks there are shales….marine shales.
    You might want to read this, Maxine. You might learn something. I did. ;)
    Petroleum Systems Northwest Shelf

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    brc

    Maxine @ various
    …aaaaand the link to skeptical science appears. At least you’re doing us the favor of trying to transcribe the information rather than copy/pasting as most people do.

    What we have here, ladies and gentleman, is a True Believer!

    So WUWT and JoNova are ‘pseudoscience’ and ‘fake science’ but when the IPCC is caught red-handed including made-up-on-the-spot information (see: Himalayan Glaciers) and outright greenpeace-minted propaganda, it’s just hand-waved away with ‘that wasn’t part of the science’. But then hypocrisy, double standards and ends-justifies-the-means is a very common trait when it comes to true believers. We’re still waiting for you to highlight a single piece of incorrect science on this blog. Someone misunderstanding income tax rates in a comment doesn’t qualify, I’m sorry to say. I’m sure our host would love your input to correct any glaring errors in the skeptics handbook, for instance.

    But still no comments on the missing government bank account? I’m sad, because that one was gold (pun intended!). But you did redeem yourself with the statement that the carbon tax cum ETS is ‘not regressive’. That’s a new one, thanks for the chuckle. Should I try the veal? I’m sure you’ll be here all week.

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    Maxine @263

    Yup and if there were no other factors discovered/observed then AGW would be disproved. I have already indicated that volcanoes, La Nina/el Nino affect temperatures for a year or two, maybe longer sometimes.

    Wrong again. That is why there are so few facts in science. At one time, there was no evidence to suggest the earth was not the center of the universe. That was because they did not know enough to find it. That did not mean it did not exist.

    But the factors causing forcing etc are pretty well understood. I would not bet on AGW being “disproved” any time soon.

    No, and that is part of the problem. if they were well understood, then they could model it accurately. As yet, none of their models are even close to being accurate.

    Retract your statement about being a scientist, or forever remain the fool you have shown yourself to be.

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    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 10:52 pm
    None of this involved the core science of AGW.

    So you are saying the IPCC has nothing to do with AGW? Mighty strong statement, but I guess you would be the one to make such a foolish claim.

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    Maxine:
    August 17th, 2011 at 11:04 pm
    Maybe you should read:

    http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-cooling-intermediate.htm

    WUWT has a long history of getting stuff wrong. Pseudoscience.

    Oh Pulease! Skeptical science is a PR site with NO science. WUWT is a good site that does a lot of research before posting. Your attitude clearly indicates a closemindedness which is an anathema to science. But then that is evident by the fact you deny facts and instead rely on dogma and religious mumbo jumbo.

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    Maxine

    Nope. WUWT is crap—it misrepresents facts and does so serially.

    The stuff you were saying re non-peer reviewed papers going into IPCC4 was not about the core science part. That is solid. There were some non-peer reviewed people in the part dealing with the implications. That is what I meant by saying it was not the core science that was affected. This was all well covered in the mainstream media at the time.

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    Maxine

    You must read just enough popular science to be able to use a couple of words.

    At the time of the geocentric beliefs there was no science, just Aristotlian constructs believed absolutely.

    If the world suddenly started cooling (and it hasn’t at this stage despite statements by pseudo mathematicians/statisticians) scientists would be looking for the factors and would find them or declare AGW disproved.

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    Maxine:
    August 18th, 2011 at 12:14 am
    Nope. WUWT is crap—it misrepresents facts and does so serially.

    Prove it. Put up or shut up. I am tired of your lies, dogmatic rantings, and ignorance of facts.

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    Maxine

    The government bank account isn’t missing. It doesn’t exist. What we have is fiat currency and if the govt wants to create some it spends it into existence. Why would the govt keep a stock of dollars? Don’t take my word for it, do some reading, email the Treasury.

    The matter of the non-peer reviewed papers was well covered on TV, newspapers etc. Go back and read them.

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    Maxine

    I am sorry, your fave d[snip] site is crap.

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    The stuff you were saying re non-peer reviewed papers going into IPCC4 was not about the core science part. That is solid. There were some non-peer reviewed people in the part dealing with the implications. That is what I meant by saying it was not the core science that was affected. This was all well covered in the mainstream media at the time.

    So the Himalayan glaciers will be gone by 2035? Before you dismiss the errors in AR4, you should at least know what they are. So refute them, one by one. We have time, do you? When you lie about your knowledge, you ensure no one will believe any of your other claims. The AR4 did just that. And it was about the core science as well. You have but to prove me wrong. Your school yard “tis so” just does not cut it on a science site like Joanne’s or WUWT, and that is what is getting into your craw.

    As I said, I am tired of your lies and school yard taunts. Put up or shut up.

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    Maxine @277 – Sorry, “Denier” is not a valid descriptor and I am surprised Joanne let it by. She has stated in the past that it is merely a pejorative and is not accurate. Those who use it are trying to stiffle scientific debate by using a loaded word associated with the Holocaust instead of debating scientifically. You have just lost all validity on this site. Fortunately for you, unlike Skeptical Science and real Science,where you comments are heavily censored and banning of posters is routine, Joanne encourages scientific discourse, but not name calling. You have crossed that line.

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    Maxine @ 264

    Is Emu or Swan your favorite?

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    Maxine

    You talking beer?

    I tend to drink micro beer. I mostly drink my own brews.

    Currently drinking a “House Ale” about a 4% amber ale made from Maris Otter ale malt, amber malt and lashings of kiwi hops, especially the delicious NZ Styrian goldings hop flowers.

    Of the majors, I drink coopers but they have been dumbing down their beers—less flavor, less complexity, less bitterness etc so drink Coopers a lot less these days.

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    Maxine

    Phil, go and read the reports in the mainstream media at the time. I am right and you are engaged in wishful thinking.

    You deny AGW is happening. That makes you a denier, a AGW denier OK?

    [STOP Using the "D" word or risk moderation] ED

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    I got the impression that you like a little help while stirring the pot.

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    Maxine

    Well, why not stir the pot, makes a nice change from creating heat but not light.

    Brewing does involve stirring: stirring the grist (malted grains crushed fairly fine) in hot water (strike water also called mash liquor) so there are no lumps in the mash—lump of grains will mean starch in the wort which could burn on in the kettle where the sweet wort is boiled with hops. Don’t want burn flavors so stir baby, stir!

    Got me a nice mash paddle made from maple, sent by the guy who makes them for this internet brewclub, from Chicago. Works well.

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    Maxine

    Not name calling? You remember what you been calling me?

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    Maxine,

    I thought Komrade was a term of endearment.

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    Maxine

    Komrade—calling me a communist. Not likely a friendly greeting.

    Not that I haven’t returned the favor here or there. Subtle like, so no one got it :)

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    Maxine

    Does the carbon dioxide pollution in your beer affect the flavour?

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    Maxine

    Not pollution because it is made from a renewable resource—malt!

    I keep carbonation nice and low—no beer farts! So undignified!

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  • #

    Maxine,

    Thanks for the bit of fun.

    Today’s another day, so I’m off to the land of nod.

    Don’t stir those “bastards” up too much.

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    Maxine

    I might give this site a miss from now on, too many closed minds. I think there is a lot of suppressed worry about.

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    Wendy

    Maxine:
    August 18th, 2011 at 1:55 am
    I might give this site a miss from now on, too many closed minds. I think there is a lot of suppressed worry about.

    pot meet kettle.

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    brc

    Maxine – like a dog to it’s vomit, you’ll return.

    Besides, you can’t leave until I get my answer from treasury about the non-existent bank account. I’m sure it will be a shock to them.

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    Colin Dixon

    Science and rational thought has been around for a long time certainly the Greeks had it.They also had politics lying cheating and hidden agendas like the current DAGW hoax. The shutting down of debate and denial of freedom coming from the alarmist camp is bring out the socialists who are just one step away from their fascist communist ideologies. http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/socialism.html where truth is the first casualty.

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    [...] supremely excellent Jo Nova has also given the ol’ convoy of no confidence a decent plug and, being the Picasso that she is, has created this map outlining the 11 routes that [...]

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    Billy-Bob

    Maxine:

    Of course its time to give this site a miss………its Thursday and the express line at CentreLink is open. Now be careful of those little yellow signs that say ‘Wet Floor’.

    You did a good job at highjacking this thread, which at the end of the day, was simply about the ‘Productive Sector’ (tax payers) joining together to have a protest in relation to incompetent Governmant.

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    Tel

    I doubt there would be hydrocarbons in the water coming out of those vents. Sulphur, sulphides, stuff like that. Minerals.

    So you are saying that carbon based life evolved out of a mineral-rich solution containing long-chain carbon molecules? Hmmm, where did those early life forms get carbon to build themselves?

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    Tel

    … a mineral-rich solution containing long-chain carbon molecules

    Oooopse. That should be “a mineral-rich solution not containing long-chain carbon molecules” as per Maxine’s position.

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    282Maxine:
    August 18th, 2011 at 1:02 am
    Phil, go and read the reports in the mainstream media at the time. I am right and you are engaged in wishful thinking.

    You deny AGW is happening. That makes you a denier, a AGW denier OK?

    Maxine, you are a liar. I challenge you to find in any posting (and I have been posting over a year now on this site and many others for longer than that) I have ever made that has me denying global warming is happening. Therefore, you are a liar, and you are also a troll. I can call you the left testicle of a soiled pig, for all the good that it will do. However, I will not debase this discussion, nor wallow in the mud with frivilous ad hominems as you have done. I have facts and data to back up my position, not propaganda censored sites and pejorative words to try to brow beat you into submission with.

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    The Convoys are Coming ...

    Where have all the Trolls gone ?   
    Have their Get Up masters found some other worthy cause for them to try Shouting Down, with their incessant drivel, now that they’ve failed to drown out  the Convoys , which are  gathering  strength as they thunder towards Canberra, ACT.

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    Jimmy G

    “He hopes to generate enough support and media attention via the “vote of no confidence” convoy to convince the Governor General to dissolve the parliament or to convince Julia Gillard to go back to the polls. “ WOW – so they want the GG to act illegally & override the constitution. Fascists!

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    Roy Hogue

    Maxine @everywhere,

    Phil Jourdan answered you one way at post 300. Here’s another way.

    I’ve been lurking around JN since 2009. I’ve been looking for evidence of warming — actual real, measurable warming — and it isn’t there. No one has it. In fact, since 2001 there has been a slight, actually measurable cooling.

    Theory says that Earth’s temperature should go up with increasing CO2 in the atmosphere. The funny thing is that the prediction isn’t coming true. Now I don’t deny that theory. It’s good sound science. But the actual evidence says CO2 is not the driving force. Some other factors are doing things that are far more powerful than CO2. There simply has never been a link established between CO2 and climate.

    I learned a long time ago that what I can actually observe, measure or otherwise objectively quantify trumps theory. And Maxine, I don’t see what your prophesy of doom wants me to see. I should see it in my garden you say. Well, in my yard I have two Crape Myrtle trees that require hot July and August days to bloom fully. In their full splendor they look like big gobs of ice-cream on a stick. They’re so thick with flowers that from a few feet away it’s hard to see any green. But for the last four years it hasn’t been warm enough for them and their display is quite anemic.

    Where is the actual temperature increase? Skeptics ask this question. We ask only this question. Maxine, where is the warming that you think is happening? Where is it actually warmer, how much warmer is it and since when? Who made these measurements, how were they made and where is the data?

    You say it’s warming. But it’s gotten cooler. So I say, let him whose prophesy comes true be the real prophet. Let the rest be fools or liars.

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    Mark D.

    Maxine @ 289:

    Not pollution because it is made from a renewable resource—malt!

    Sure, and you boil with wood right? and the maltster used solar heat to make malt? The hops were grown without fertilizer, your kettle and fermenter made from clay? The Coopers was delivered by horse to the store?

    Define denier?

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    Mark D.

    Phil Jourdan @ various

    Thanks for the effort.

    Maxine has proven little but then he/she has little to go on.

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    Mark D.

    @ 303: should read: “the hops and grain were grown without fertilizer….”

    While I’m at it: For a place with so little fresh water, Aussies have no business brewing beer. Anyone with such advanced concern for the environment is a hypocrite if they promote, sponsor or take part in brewing.

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    David Williamson

    ===
    the majority of comments relate to the validity of the effect/s of carbon gasses on our planet’s weather patterns
    ===
    surely the significant issues should not even be “AGW” i.e. Anthropomorphic Global Warming
    ===
    many reputable scientists agree that if there was a combined effort by a majority of countries that produce high levels of CO2 then it would take many decades to produce any recogniseable effect
    ===
    if our current government was efficient and ethical then it would consider that its duty to those it governs must over ride its derermination to pursue a mandate that it does not have
    ===
    it would put its policies before its electors and let them give it a mandate to attempt to achieve them
    ===
    a government that ignores its electors to the degree that ours has AND has proven its ignorance and incompetance needs to be removed at the earliest
    ===
    Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Idi Amin, Magabee, etc were managers whose self determination ruined their countries – these people were managers not leaders
    ===
    a manager says “do what I tell you” i.e. I am more inteligent than you
    a leader says “come on people WE CAN ACHIEVE GREAT THINGS”
    ===
    may the Convoy of No Confidence ignite the emotive determination of the “Silent Majority” and sweep our political managers from office
    before more harm comes to our great nation, Australia
    ===

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    Peter C

    Be warned. The aim of this event is as organizers have stated is to dissolve both Houses of Parliament.

    Therefore any use or threat of force by any person involved in the convoy can be construed as an act of Sedition under Appendix C of the Crimes Act 1914.

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    Mark D.

    Maxine, do you ever think: where did the carbon originate, that the dinosaurs and flora fixed in their bodies?

    Do you ever wonder why those prehistoric plants were so large?

    What came first the carbon chicken or the carbon egg.

    If you think outside the AGW box you’ll get extra credit by contemplating the notion that the full “carbon cycle” includes that prehistoric source as well as the present freeing of it.

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    Maxine

    David Williamson is wrong.

    The Labor did go to the 2010 election promising a carbon price would be implemented. That is about to happen.

    Both Houses cannot be dissolved—read Antony Green’s blog on the ABC website.

    Mark D
    Suns “burn” (fuse) hydrogen and carbon is one of the elements created. Hydrogen—I guess created in the explosion of the monobloc.

    So when our solar system was created hydrogen and carbon were pretty common in the make up of the rocks—that is where the carbon came from.

    The plants and animals were all huge in the Carboniferous because oxygen content was much higher: spiders the size of a human head, millipedes 30cm wide and 10m long etc.

    Animals were big in the Age of Amphibians and the Age of Dinosaurs. Then again, we have elephants and rhinos and a megafauna with the elephants’ bigger cousins mammoths and mastodons, huge kangaroo and other marsupials, etc.

    Mark D
    Whatever fossil fuels were consumed in preparing the ingredients for brewing (you missed out storing/pumping, treating and distribution of water) I try to make up for by growing fruit trees and sequestering carbon in the soil in my garden—compost, composted manures and mulch. Generally I try to leave but a small footprint on the environment.

    So your Petition is in the wrong form, asks for something that can’t be done and now I hear Abbott will be riding in the lead truck. BANG goes your so-called non-party allegiance. This is a Liberal Party stunt financed and organised by big industry who can’t wait to have WorkChoices re-introduced. What is that saying, something about shooting and your own foot? I would try and get your petrol money back I reckon!

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    Maxine

    Woops, megafauna extinct only a few thousand years.

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    Ben

    Maxine @ 312

    You lot are being had. LOL

    Well that’s been quite obvious all along!

    But Maxine, you are wasting your time. These folk live in a parallel universe where reality is what they imagine it to be.

    Reading through these posts you see all the League of Rights, CEC, One Nation and Tea Party ratbaggery presented as reality.

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    Maxine,

    I’m going to have to call you Komrade again if you reference propaganda material such as Exiled Online which eminates from Moscow.

    And you reckoned you weren’t a Communist!

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    Ben @ 313

    The opposite of the agenda of the organisations that you cite and hate would have to be THE COMMUNIST ALLIANCE – which is an alliance of a number of political parties in Australia,plus migrant advocates and progressive individuals.

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    Ben @ 313

    Progressive as a term of speech is often replaced with the term ‘moving forward’. Red headed politicians quite often use the term.

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 315

    The opposite of the agenda of the organisations that you cite and hate would have to be THE COMMUNIST ALLIANCE – which is an alliance of a number of political parties in Australia,plus migrant advocates and progressive individuals.

    Who says I hate those organisations?

    The truth is I pity those whose grip on reality is so tenuous they believe some of the nonsense espoused by those organisations.

    Of course I do object to some of the racism, religious vilification and general bigotry and ignorance they propagate.

    And I have never previously heard of ‘THE COMMUNIST ALLIANCE’. The various communist parties in Australia went out of existence I believe. Although we still have some Trotskyist cults engaging in their fantasies I think.

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    Ben @ 317

    I just looked up the League of Rights and they indicate a pro Christian stance.

    Why do you pity them?

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 318

    I just looked up the League of Rights and they indicate a pro Christian stance.

    Why do you pity them?

    Check them out here.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Rights

    The Australian League of Rights is a long-lived far right and anti-semitic political organisation in Australia founded by Eric Butler with its basis in the economic theory of Social Credit expounded by C. H. Douglas.

    So if you are into anti-semitism and other extreme right cause, go ahead and join up. I’m sure you’ll have a lovely time.

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    Maxine

    LoR are a bunch of anti-semites more than christians. Mostly middle-aged to old white people probably feeling left behind so they take refuge in conspiracy theorists: they are the only ones who know the real truth. God and guns are turned to by those left behind that won’t make the effort to catch up and join the mainstream.

    Unfortunately, Abbott has cultivated these groups in his quest for what he feels is rightfully his, the position of Prime Minister. Sorry, Tone, the gift of the Lodge is up to the people of Australia to award.

    Do the work Tone, budgets, policy formulation etc. Stunts won’t get you there.

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    Maxine

    Hmmm an interesting tweet:

    geeksrulz Geekster
    Trucking better off under carbon tax than Abbott’s plan in study commissioned by Aust. Trucking Assoc. http://t.co/679AMgX #auspol #convoync
    23 minutes ago Favorite Undo Retweet Reply

    Tories are good at getting people to vote against their real interest.

    Exiled online traces to the US. russia ain’t communist no more.

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    Maxine

    Oh dear, another tweet:

    Colvinius Mark Colvin
    “@MichaelJones351: according to ACT policing there were about 200 vehicles including 90 trucks an hour ago at EPIC.

    200 vehicles… some convoy. Somebody is being had!

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    Maxine @ 320

    Being an Atheist you wouldn’t have a clue as to how the term anti-Semite was derived, nor what it means.

    Read,Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 [Bible]and open your eyes!

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    Ben

    Maxine @ 322

    Didn’t I read somewhere that the promoters of the convoy of the crazed and clueless were predicting 3,000 – 9,000 at their Canberra convention?

    Seems the population is saner than they counted on.

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    Mark D.

    Maxine is shaking in her boots.

    Maxine (and Ben too) Continue with your own denial about what and who the Tea Party people are. You’ll end up just like the Democrats that got voted out here. Tea Party people are not “exported” they are your own, they are fed up with the damage politicians are doing. They are realizing that they have a voice. You are in denial about what is wrong and you are in denial of what that voice will accomplish. Your persistent ad-hom attacks, use of the vile “teabagger” and denial shows you are afraid.

    Very afraid.

    Good.

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    Ben @ 324

    The trouble with democracy is that the greatest percentage of the mob generally don’t have much of a clue.You could probably put yourself in the clueless category.

    The world today is controlled by a cabal of psycopaths.

    Your support of their agenda is in my opinion insane.

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    Ben

    Mark D. @ 325

    So what terrible things is the Federal Govt doing? Give me your top 5.

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    Ben @ 327

    Politicians act as trustees to administer the nation for the benefit of its citizenry.

    The government by acting as a corporation and by making treaties with other governments without the consent of those for whom they act are therefore in breach of trust, and is cause for their immediate removal from their position of trust.

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 328

    The government by acting as a corporation and by making treaties with other governments without the consent of those for whom they act are therefore in breach of trust, and is cause for their immediate removal from their position of trust.

    Oh right, I got it.

    So each and every time a government wants to enter into a treaty or agreement with another country we have to have an election.

    What a great way to paralyse government and make it unworkable! Typical Tea Party nonsense. We elect governments to govern and then face the judgement of the electorate at the next election. It has worked well for 110 years.

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    Ben @ 329

    There is no point in my debating with someone as clueless as yourself.

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    Mark D.

    Ben re 327

    My top 5 may differ from the folks in Australia but here are my top 5 for the USA:

    1. Over regulation of small business, under regulation of big business and banking.
    2. Over taxation.
    3. Absurd domestic energy policy.
    4. the tax system is overly complex and needs to be re-done from scratch.
    5. Stop illegal immigration.

    you only wanted 5 but there are more and they are important:

    6. The number of government employees is too high.
    7. Inability to end the professional lobby industry.
    8. We need to end all funding and relations with the United Nations.
    9. Inability to correct campaign finance problems.
    10. A nearly complete disconnect by the leadership from the people.

    The Tea Party people here would agree with all of the above. There are many more things I could list but these ten should keep you busy for a while.

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    Mark D.

    Kevin Moore @330: I’d add “indoctrinated” to “clueless”. The problem is that he has been completely indoctrinated and that blinds him to new clues.

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    Ben

    Mark D. @ 331

    Ben re 327

    My top 5 may differ from the folks in Australia but here are my top 5 for the USA:

    1. Over regulation of small business, under regulation of big business and banking.

    Your banks were certainly under-regulated but we seem to have had sufficient regulation to dodge a bullet in the GFC. So out Govt (and its predecessors) pass on that one. Small business always complains about over-regulation, but having run a small business, I would say that regulation never bothered me.

    2. Over taxation.

    Our present govt collects a smaller percentage of the GDP as tax than its predecessor did so it is hard to argue that here. In relation to the US situation, I guess I agree with Warren Buffet that he and his fellow billionaires and millionaires should be paying more tax.

    3. Absurd domestic energy policy.

    In what respect? I can only say that the US needs to cure its addiction to profligate energy use. So do we to a lesser extent.

    4. the tax system is overly complex and needs to be re-done from scratch.

    I think it is fair to say ours has got simpler over recent years. I can’t comment on the US system.

    5. Stop illegal immigration.

    Australia has a miniscule problem compared to other countries and most ‘illegal immigrants’ are found to be genuine asylum seekers. The US has a problem along it’s southern border and I do not feel able to comment on that.

    you only wanted 5 but there are more and they are important:

    6. The number of government employees is too high.

    Depends what they do. Always an easy target for generalised gripes.

    7. Inability to end the professional lobby industry.

    Less of a problem here, but I can agree with you on that one. It is way out of control in the US. Regulation may beat prohibition.

    8. We need to end all funding and relations with the United Nations.

    Why? For all it’s imperfections, the UN does some good work with peace keeping and other activities around the world.
    It plays a useful role in maintaining world ‘peace’.
    BTW, both our countries played a role in it’s foundation after WWII and its headquarters is in yours!
    Your alternative would be?

    9. Inability to correct campaign finance problems.

    Agree in the US and to a much lesser extent here.

    10. A nearly complete disconnect by the leadership from the people.

    Hey, you people vote them in!
    You can surely meet with your Congressmen and Senators and make your views known? You can join a political party can’t you? I really don’t get this complaint.
    I would say that the US system of running elections is a disgrace for a developed country.

    The Tea Party people here would agree with all of the above. There are many more things I could list but these ten should keep you busy for a while.

    The Tea Party people are dupes who want to retain tax breaks for the super rich and object to having a decent health system that covers your entire population. I can think of no other developed country that does not have this. From outside the US it just defies comprehension.

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    Mark D.

    Ben @ 333 Thank you for the mostly thoughtful replies.

    Small business always complains about over-regulation, but having run a small business, I would say that regulation never bothered me.

    I’ve run my own since the early 1990′s. Then I was only required to purchase a bond for $5000. Today the bond is $25,000 and I am required to attend 16 hours of continuing education classes (which I am qualified to teach) and all of my employees require some CE. This may not seem like much but it reduces productivity by several days a year. This time is a direct cost to my business. There are thousands similar examples depending on what the business does.

    Our present govt collects a smaller percentage of the GDP as tax than its predecessor did so it is hard to argue that here. In relation to the US situation, I guess I agree with Warren Buffet that he and his fellow billionaires and millionaires should be paying more tax.

    Well that may be good for you. I’m not sure if taxes as a percentage of GDP is a reasonable measure. If Billionaires want to give more there is nothing to stop them. I think Warren Buffet is an ass for saying such things. Incidentally, My business lost $2000.00 because of Warren. His company bought a company that we had done work for. Immediately after buying the business, he parted it out (to maximize profits) and bankrupted the rest. That bankruptcy forced me to eat our bill for services. So that fat cat rich bastard screwed me and took food off my table by leveraging the bankruptcy laws.

    In what respect? I can only say that the US needs to cure its addiction to profligate energy use. So do we to a lesser extent.

    I couldn’t disagree more! There is NO reason to minimize energy use (unless you suffer from indoctrination). Low cost energy would permit us to compete with low cost labor worldwide. We have the energy, we wouldn’t need the middle east. Our Government, decides not to use our energy, and thereby pisses our hard-earned money away to the Middle East or South America. Making our detractors wealthy in the process and tipping our export-import balance. Sheer foolishness brought about by world politics, international corporate influence, and insane green lobby.

    Why? For all it’s imperfections, the UN does some good work with peace keeping and other activities around the world.
    It plays a useful role in maintaining world ‘peace’.
    BTW, both our countries played a role in it’s foundation after WWII and its headquarters is in yours!
    Your alternative would be?

    The UN is corrupt. It’s function does nothing good for the USA. It behaves as a government unto itself and attempts to subvert our Congress which is contrary to our Constitution. As to why the UN was formed it is a long story but has more to do with limiting the new superpower (USA) than the altruistic purpose people hold. I have no alternative because nothing is better.

    Hey, you people vote them in!
    You can surely meet with your Congressmen and Senators and make your views known? You can join a political party can’t you? I really don’t get this complaint.
    I would say that the US system of running elections is a disgrace for a developed country.

    Yes and no. I didn’t elect Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid. The reason they are there has to do with population shifts. The majority of States in the Midwest are neutered by the huge populations East and West. http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/results/president/map.html (click on county leaders tab) In my opinion, this is one flaw in the Founders plans for democracy. I do regularly contact congressmen and senators as I am able. The ones that agree are agreeable and listen. The ones that have a different ideology usually ignore. The last Representative that ignored me lost his seat. (he held it for over 30 years). It was Tea Party activity that made that happen. I have joined and been active in political parties to the highest levels.

    Your comment about how we run elections needs more detail.

    If you step back a bit I’ll give you more big picture: Big government concerns itself with power. Power is money, money is power. Corruption is inevitable and more money correlates with more corruption. Therefore, smaller government is better than larger. Less taxes means less power, less corruption. It is really that simple. Read the history of our Founders and the writing of the constitution and you’ll understand exactly what I am saying. The Founders were brilliant.

    The Tea Party people are dupes who want to retain tax breaks for the super rich and object to having a decent health system that covers your entire population. I can think of no other developed country that does not have this. From outside the US it just defies comprehension.

    Interesting…..Dupes? You really need to look into what makes a Tea Party “member”. You obviously have only read a few biased “news” stories. Just like the politicians that found themselves out of work, you’ll be surprised. This IS the epitome of what I mean by “disconnected”. Tea Party people are NOT the wealthy. The super rich are possibly the cause of the “disconnect” due to their campaign influences. Not that I despise wealth, to the contrary I hope to have it someday. As to health care (specifically Obamacare) I can think of no more significant reason for the lack of confidence in business today than that abomination. Obamacare sought to fix a problem that largely didn’t exist, and replace it with something far worse. To hear you comment you’d think that the world believes we had no health care before. It was our “failed” system that created a significant amount of the modern medical technology you enjoy today. Obamacare is condensed Ideology and there isn’t enough time to demonstrate how bad it is in this venue.

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    Roy Hogue

    Mark D. @334,

    Ben @ 333 Thank you for the mostly thoughtful replies.

    Well done! And richly deserved!

    Now if only we can we get his head back into the sunlight.

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    Maxine

    Kevin Moore: 323

    I wasn’t always an atheist. Revelations is the most abused part of the Bible. Use your brain, takes a while to set in motion but you will love the ride!

    Ben 324 yeah, the real Truckies Association has a lot more sense and professionalism.

    Mark D 325. Most Tea Party members have IQs below 100 I imagine. I know much more about them then you might think. They are being manipulated by the likes of Rupert Murdoch and various fundamentalist churches all of whom live well off of these suckers. Murdoch here is against the National Broadband Network being rolled out, would compete with his Fox network. Always, always follow the money don”t just jump in because it feels good.

    Kevin Moore 326—you are describing yourself!

    Kevin Moore 328—all governments make treaties to foster trade, seek protection against potential aggressors, pool scientific resources etc. One such will see the square mile array probably be built near Geraldton, WA, to the benefit of Geraldton, WA, Australia and the world. You have a weird world view my friend!

    Kevin Moore 330—come on, you make a statement you should be able to argue convincingly in support of that statement. I guess the thing about treaties is mor eTea Party nonsense?

    Mark D 325—you think the Tea Party is maybe one way the bankers and other business groups are hoping to avoid regulation? It is a crime that no banker or other person that sold CDOs and caused the GFC has even been charged. I don’t see Tea Party members as other than dupes. The Tea Party movement is the creation and tool of those who want to keep making obscene wealth.

    Kevin Moore 326. You obviously find comfort of being part of a particular mob. You hate that not everyone is but that is life. Some people can think clearly and stand alone without being part of some mob being manipulated.

    Mark D 331. why do you guys hate the UN so much? Do you secretly wish for a big war? WWIII hasn’t happened and hopefully never will happen and that is due partly to the UN. The UN also helps feed and educate people etc etc. I guess it is just my mob is best, everyone should belong to my mob and if they don’t they must be bludgeoned until they are and the UN stands in the way of that. Not saying the UN is without fault of course.

    Ben 333

    The Tea Party people are dupes who want to retain tax breaks for the super rich and object to having a decent health system that covers your entire population. I can think of no other developed country that does not have this. From outside the US it just defies comprehension.

    Hear hear! Tea Party is a creation of the rich like Murdoch and is a tool for the rich!

    Mark D 334 Tea Party members are dupes, tools of vested interests. And I agree with Ben, saying the public service needs to slim down always sounds good and easy but in practice it can’t really be done. The Tories here are talking of sacking 12,000 public servants but it will not help much in the short term as redundancies etc have to be paid and the sacked workers will be rehired as consultants at higher cost anyway. The world is a complex place.

    Tea Party should be aiming to have the SEC and other regulators do their job, which they have signally failed to do so far. The money that corrupts politicians seems to come from big business not tax money.

    You think that we only read biased news items? This is the world of the internet and increasingly information can be obtainedfairly easily and the Tea Party members seem like dupes to me: unhappy with the state of the world, probably feeling left behind they seek the solace of religion and any huckster who promises to make their world perfect. Never happens of course. If I were you I would try and trace Murdoch/Fox’s role in starting the Tea Party and setting its course.

    Stop being a total dupe!

    90 trucks in these huge convoys! 90 trucks, not even a hundred! They went through Canberra without making any impact on anything, not even a traffic jam! Now they will present a Petition of the wrong form asking for something that is not constitutionally possible! that sounds like the acts of D U P E S !

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    Ben

    It seems that those thousands of trucks must have missed a turn off or something as they never made it to Canberra.

    The convoy of lost and loony perhaps?

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    Maxine @ 336

    There is no point wasting time arguing with you as you do not have enough understanding, nor a willingness to understand, to understand.

    You say this is the world of the internet and information can be obtained fairly easily. You have to change your mindset if you want to understand how it is that evil bastards have control of the world and manipulate the minds of those with no spiritual understanding. Go back in time to the period that you weren’t an atheist and start again. You are a willing dupe of psycopaths. Your support of them will cause great misery and not gain for you any beneficial reward.

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    Maxine

    Kevin

    That is such a sad post.

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 338

    Which god, out of the thousands in recorded history, should Maxine follow?

    Just wondering.

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    Mark D.

    Maxine @ 336

    What a load of paranoid conspiracy delusion!

    IQ of the average Tea Party member is higher than yours. I’ve met many

    If you want to study manipulation of low IQ people ask ACORN and the Democrats. They are masters.

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    Mark D.

    Also at 336

    Not saying the UN is without fault of course.

    Well lets start with what we have in common shall we? You go first: what faults do you find in the UN?

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    Jimmy G

    The Convoy of No Consequence – what an epic fail. Even all that free publicity from “Gloria” Jones could encourage more than a few hundred to take this paid holiday

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    Mark D.

    Roy Hogue @ 335

    Thanks.

    lets see if there is a substantive reply from Ben.

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    Maxine

    Jimmy G

    Poor old sky reporter talked of convoys thundering past. While he was crapping on for quite a few minute *four* trucks went past! LOL!

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    Maxine

    Mark D—what faults do you expect in a big old organisation?

    [snip] ED

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    Maxine

    JULIA Gillard has announced a $100 million cash injection for BlueScope steel from the industry’s carbon-tax adjustment fund – which Tony Abbott opposes – to prevent further job losses at the struggling manufacturer.

    As the company today confirmed it would abandon its export business with the loss of 1000 jobs, the Prime Minister said the company would be allowed to bring forward funding under the government’s $300 million, five-year Steel Transformation Plan.

    The STP was a component of the government’s carbon tax package, although Ms Gillard said BlueScope had acknowledged the latest job losses were “no way attributable to the introduction of a carbon price”.

    The plan must be legislated, putting the pressure on the Opposition Leader who has refused to support the measure.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/bluescope-steel-full-year-loss-tops-1bn-as-1000-jobs-cut-blast-furnace-closed/story-fn59niix-1226119497175

    Now if the ETS was blocked (which it won’t be) that assistance would not be forthcoming.

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    Maxine

    And the Resource Tax (this one actually a tax) will really allow the two-speed economy to be closer to a one speed.

    Of course the Convoy of Astroturfers will oppose the MRRT too I suppose? So terrible getting some of the mining profits to stay in Australia!

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    brc

    So the Onesteel closures (which by agreement of everyone are not related to the carbon tax) are to be saved by the money brought forwards from the Carbon tax, even though it hasn’t been enacted yet, much less collected. Then, when the tax comes in, Onesteel will have to turn around and pay that straight back again in taxes.

    Tell me again how this just isn’t wealth redistribution? Tell us again how it will change the weather?

    As for the Mining tax – such a good idea – take a bat to the profitable industry so the unprofitable ones feel good about themselves. Yes, that will really bring in the prosperity, taking profits from profitable industries and giving it to unprofitable ones. I don’t remember the steel industry stumping up gifts to the mining industry when the roles were reversed. But socialists can’t think beyond taking things off others. If there is a problem, it’s because somewhere someone has gotten themselves into the position of making a profit, and must be stopped. They all have a 5 year olds understanding of money as something that gets shared out equally, like lunch money. If someone has more, ergo, they have less because of some unfair problem that can be caused by getting into a position of controlling the lunch money supply.

    How about the unions? Did they offer to work with management and get a temporary paycut until trading improves? Or did they just turn to the ALP and ask for a bailout and stamp their feet and demand that the rest of Australia turns yet another industry into a government-supported and controlled zombie? Did anyone ask the employees if they would accept 80% pay for 2 years in order to keep their jobs? The ALP will be delighted with this news – regaining control of steel industries from private owners is like manna from heaven for socialists. I wouldn’t be surprised if a nationalisation plan doesn’t pop up out of this mess. After all, Qantas was roundly criticised for seeing the problem coming down the track and trying to take action before it ended up broke and renationalised.

    The reason the AUD is strong is not because of the mining industry. BHP and Rio would love it to be the other way around. The reason the AUD is strong is because the net government debt position is still relatively low compared to the currencies it is traded against. As such, the interest rates paid are still realistic. Unfortunately for Onesteel the Chinese government doesn’t play ball with a floating currency and the Americans and Japanese are printing their money away to try and inflate away their debt.

    If the mining industry was the reason for the high dollar you’d have to ask why the Swiss also are suffering from a high currency. Can’t be their large resources sector, perhaps it’s their conservative fiscal position and long history of currency stability. The point being that countries with a good history of not destroying their currencies by inflating away bad debt tend to have realistic interest rates, and therefore are in demand when the big players of the world destroy their currency.

    It is no good searching for solutions after the patient is dead. The prognosis was made years ago and nothing was done. Onesteel is dead more at the hands of the Japan Central Bank and the Federal Reserve than anything the Australian government can do. All Tony Abbott and Julia Gillard can do is argue about who throws the most good money after bad. A pox on both their houses if you ask me. They should butt out and let the management, workers and shareholders come up with a way to keep the company alive until good times return.

    It sucks for the workers but when big governments play games with their currencies – the US devalues theirs but the Chinese won’t revalue theirs, there’s nothing that small Australian companies caught in the crossfire can do.

    There’s a good lesson in all this for people who think an Australian carbon dioxide tax can modify the behaviour of the top economies because this tiny little Southern Hemisphere nation is busy passing stamping it’s feet and passing regressive taxation laws. We all get smashed around with manipulations and distortions from floating fiat currencies. Adding another floating, fiat ‘permit’ to the mix is not going to make things better. The only way a carbon tax can help is by tipping Australia into recession, blowing out deficits and harpooning the currency as the reserve bank lowered interest rates to try and get some life back into the patient. But that’s not really what we want, is it?

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    Ben

    brc @ 349
    So you know better than all the scientists in the CSIRO & the National Academy of Science etc and all the economists in Treasury?

    Oh spare us!

    Your rantings are just so ill-informed and stupid that they warrant no further comment.

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    Maxine

    The AUD is strong because we sell a shitload of dirt to China. When commodity prices go down so does the AUD.

    You really should learn some economics & finance.

    The MRRT is not quite “taking a bat” to the mining industry. By reimbursing royalties the MRRT takes away a big cost of production, a cost that starts as soon as a shovel load of overburden is removed. It will allow more marginal mines to stay open and encourage exploration and starting of mines in somewhat smaller deposits. Again, try reading the Financial Review rather than those who want to lead you astray for their own ends.

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    Maxine

    I wander what some of the deluded muthertruckers are thinking. All that diesel, the jobs foregone and for what? A complete flop of a demonstration! Would have been cheaper to FLY to Caberra and make as much (zero) impact.

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    P. Dragone

    I blinked, and so I missed the Convoy of No Consequence.

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    brc

    ben @ 350

    Where did I reference the CSIRO, or the Academy of Science, or Treasury? Unicorn breeding is a poor form of repsonse. If you actually read my reply instead of going to your cut/paste answer #23 you’d realise I said nothing about the science.

    If my ‘rantings’ are so misinformed, please point out where I’m wrong.

    Maxine.

    For a start I thought you left. Dogs and vomit, as they say. Arsonists and arson. Always return, can’t help themselves.

    You’re confusing the MRRT with the MSPT. You try reading the Financial Review. And come back and tell us how an endless government deficit actually improves an economy again. That one was a right hoot.

    The actual outcome of the tax is to belt down the values of smaller miners while leaving the bigger players less bothered. Because it’s all bound up in profits rather than royalties a multi-national can offshore the revenue much easier. A junior miner can’t. That’s why the new policy was written with the big boys in the room, and the little guys locked out. That’s why, like the carbon tax, the problem isn’t now, when the mines are in full swing and they aren’t going to be packed up. It’s the future mines that never get built that are the issue. It’s the future jobs that will now never get created.

    But I don’t want to sideline into mining debates – there are plenty of threads for that.

    Sure, commodity prices affect the AUD currency value. But tell us why that is? Why are currencies in a major bull market not seen since the 1970′s? Sure, Chinas economic growth has the demand side bolstered, but it has to offset a lot of falling demand elsewhere. It’s not the entire picture to just say ‘china’.

    Currencies and commodities trade against something. That something is usually USD, which nearly everything is quoted in. Overprinted USD results in a fall against commodities. Overprintind USD is a response to the rolling debt crisis caused by too much government debt, caused by endless deficits for pointless expenses. You could say commodities have gone up. Or you could equally say the USD has gone down. Either way, the strength of the AUD is something the Australian Government has little or no control over. Again, it’s not because of mining that the currency has gone up. Mining certainly is a beneficiary of the increase in commodities, but at the same time they lose because the AUD, as a commodity-linked currency rises just as fast. The main reason they benefit is because they paid for their fixed assets a long time ago.

    But I wouldn’t expect the bait-takers to understand any of this. After all, there’s been a serious effort here to pretend that government debt doesn’t matter. That can only be uttered by someone without a clue what the difference between money and currency is.

    As for the protest? If you can’t understand why someone would rather drive across this country as a protest rather than fly, I seriously don’t think you’ll ever understand anyone outside of your social bubble. And that explains a lot.

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    P. Dragone

    Maxine,
    I feel a bit sorry for them. It was always going to end this way. I told them they were just tools for Tony Abbott, shelling out thousands of $$ just to provide him with a stunt for his 30 second grab in the nightly news. Now even that didn’t work out well.

    Now Moany Tony is nice and comfy having his dinner, Alan Jones has caught a flight back to Sydney and the trucker/camper-vanners have to pay for their fuel to get home.

    Anyone with a passing acquaintance with the Constitution or access to Google would have known it’s impossible for the GG to dismiss the government just because some people don’t like the result of the election.

    Ms Nova, imho, you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself for your involvement in this. It is fitting that it will be on your C.V. forever.

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    Maxine

    brc—endless govt deficit. I take it you didn’t confirm that pretty much all governments last century ran deficits?

    Some more than others. Whitlam left smaller deficits than the dreadful duo of Fraser and his Treasurers Lynch and Howard.

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    Maxine

    Your are wrong about the mining tax. Doesn’t surprise me. You don’t want to think, just parrot slogans others give you. Either version of the mining tax rebate royalties and it is royalties are a brake on the mining industry.

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    Maxine

    Yeah, Dragon, I posted to that effect above.

    I bet the non-trucks in the convoy are just grey nomads having a interesting drive, any genuine trucky in the Convoy of No Idea has my sympathy but they should think not listen to Liberal Party astroturfers. the fact the real truckies associations wouldn’t take part should have been a bit of a warning light.

    So I feel sorry for them but there is contempt in there too, for being taken in by astroturfers so easily. The supposed organisers didn’t take their truck just a campervan, saving themselves thousands of dollars.

    Think, check, don’t be dupes!

    Hey, I will be driving Adelaide-Rocky soon, wonder if I can invent a wacky cause that would have others pay my petrol??

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    brc

    endless govt deficit. I take it you didn’t confirm that pretty much all governments last century ran deficits?

    Well finally something we can agree upon. I wonder if you’ll also agree that the current financial mess is caused by said deficits?

    Just because the majority of the governments in the world ran endless deficits, it doesn’t mean that it’s correct. The timeframes for the disaster are long, but they are real nonetheless. The day of reckoning for some of the largest economies in the world is fast approaching. Maybe it will be another 10 years, perhaps another 20, but it will arrive. Because these cycles last longer than a single humans lifetime, we are doomed to repeat them endlessly.

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    Maxine

    I meant all Australian govts! Clearly you are too lazy or indoctrinated to do any reading!

    The present deficits are courtesy of Costello’s endless tax cuts to the rich and the GFC. Seems company tax, for the first time ever, is a major part of total tax receipts by the C/w govt. Guess what happens to profits in a recession?

    Next year we will show a surplus, courtesy of more hard work by Treasurer Swan in winding back all the middleclass welfare Howard put in to buy votes. Also, other Ministers will be looking for waste and possible savings. Real savings, not funny money Liberal savings with huge black holes in them.

    But last century had two world wars, Korea and Vietnam wars and the 30s Great Depression, post war immigration etc.

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    Maxine

    Present mess was caused by [you using the bagger] [snip] ED

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    Maxine

    I didn’t say China was the cause of the high AUD, we are a commodities play. If things really go to shit the AUD will be dropped like a hot potato and the $US will rise—it is much more liquid than the AUD.

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    Ben:
    August 21st, 2011 at 7:36 pm
    But Maxine, you are wasting your time. These folk live in a parallel universe where reality is what they imagine it to be.

    Reading through these posts you see all the League of Rights, CEC, One Nation and Tea Party ratbaggery presented as reality.

    No, this is a site for real scientists, not faux religious fanatics. That you cannot debate the issues, but instead just use pejorative phrases in an attempt to dismiss those who do not bow at your alter, indicates you have no rational debates or reasoning. just Ad hominems and appeals to authority. Very much like a religion. I understand there are many fine religious sites on the Internet. Perhaps you should consider joining one. There, proof is non-existent. All you need is faith.

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    Maxine:
    August 22nd, 2011 at 9:43 am

    Hear hear! Tea Party is a creation of the rich like Murdoch and is a tool for the rich!

    Your ignorance is apparently only exceeded by your stupidity. Indeed, part of the reason that the Tea Party does not have as much power as it would like is that it is difficult to create a grass roots organization and grab seats of power without big backing. They are grass roots, and not a creation of anyone power person. And that is what scares the power elite (both sides of the aisle). Please, take your ignorance elsewhere, you will not be allowed to spew stupidity unchecked here. This is not a sycophantic site like the ones you are use to visiting.

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    Maxine

    Phil Jourdan

    Real science? Wacko d[snip] sites who regularly get their facts wrong!

    Appeals to authority—we have been over this, reputable, real scientists do real science and test, refine theories. Referring to that sort of science is not an appeal to authority! If you like it is an appeal (reference) to empirical fact.

    Don’t be silly. [prove your point or stop saying it] ED

    Not only that a few are starting to see that simplistic notions don’t cut it in the real world: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/us/22states.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha2

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    Roy Hogue

    Mark D. @344

    Roy Hogue @ 335

    Thanks.

    lets see if there is a substantive reply from Ben.

    You’re welcome.

    But I think the dirty dishes washing themselves and Ben saying something of substance have about the same probability.

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    P. Dragone

    What is this ‘appeals to authority’ shyte? Who made up that term, the Insult Fairy?

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    P. Dragone

    Phil J.
    The Tea Party has not as much influence as it would like because ordinary people are waking up t the fact that they are a mob of dangerous nutters who will destroy a country socially and economically to get control of it. There is always some of these in any society, but it wasn’t until they got bankrolled by the wealthy power players. The USA Tea Party is about as grass-roots as a Venus Fly Trap.

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    P. Dragone

    PhilJ,
    Real Scientists do not make up fanciful terms like ‘appeal to authority’ to shut down debate. Real Scientists do not get sucked in by the likes of Monkton, whose training is old dead white males’ literature (even if some of it is good to read.) Real scientists don’t spend their time trying to convince gullible people to drive thousands of miles using their own resources to demand an election when such an election is constitutionally impossible.

    If you can find a real scientist within a cooee of this blog, please, please, point them out.

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    Maxine:
    August 22nd, 2011 at 11:04 pm
    Phil Jourdan

    Real science? Wacko d[snip] sites who regularly get their facts wrong!

    No, real sites that adhere to the principals of science. Sorry you do not know what real science is. Do you even know what the null hypothesis is?

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    P. Dragone:
    August 23rd, 2011 at 12:42 am
    Phil J.
    The Tea Party has not as much influence as it would like because ordinary people are waking up t the fact that they are a mob of dangerous nutters who will destroy a country socially and economically to get control of it.

    You are right and wrong. It does not have as much influence as it woudl like, but not due to “waking up”. That would imply a history, of which the Tea Party is so new, it has yet to have one. And that is the reason for its lack of influence. The movement is only 2 years old.

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    P. Dragone:
    August 23rd, 2011 at 1:06 am
    PhilJ,
    Real Scientists do not make up fanciful terms like ‘appeal to authority’ to shut down debate. Real Scientists do not get sucked in by the likes of Monkton, whose training is old dead white males’ literature (even if some of it is good to read.) Real scientists don’t spend their time trying to convince gullible people to drive thousands of miles using their own resources to demand an election when such an election is constitutionally impossible.

    If you can find a real scientist within a cooee of this blog, please, please, point them out.

    The terms are not made up, nor has anyone gotten “sucked in” by Monckton. But the AGW religion does appeal to authority, asks for blind obedience to a faith, not facts, and demands you listen to them to the exclusion of all reason and evidence. That is what the alarmists demand of us. That is why they may have at one time been scientists, but long ago lost all claims to that. Your ad hominem attack is just further proof of it. You cannto debate the issue because you do not have any facts on your side.

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    Mark D.

    Drag-me-down and the others have repeatedly suggested that the Tea Party is not grass roots then offer no proof of any kind.

    Either offer some evidence of this or stop repeating the lie!

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    Wendy

    P. Dragone:
    August 23rd, 2011 at 1:06 am

    “Real Scientists”…..like the ones that predict that sea levels will wipe out those homes on the coasts….and then go buy ANOTHER block next to their existing block ON THE COAST. Those “Scientists”???

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    Wendy

    Hey Maxine…..
    I’m still waiting for you to link up some articles decribing all those towns that are having to shut off their street lights and put their roads back to gravel. ;)
    BTW, I thought you were taking a time-out?

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    Wendy

    Mark D @ 373

    That’s all they’ve got. They have never talked in person to a member of the Tea Party, nor do they get any of their information from anywhere remotely connected to the Tea Party. They can only parrot what the left-wing papers and blogs tell them. And since they’ve been “told” what to think, they never go do any research for themselves.
    I’d like to think that Maxine et al know what the word they’ve been calling the Tea Party members means and would hope that she, Ben and Dragone, P are suitably embarrassed. I’m sure my hope is misplaced tho and that they take great delight in using the name and being as bad as.

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    Maxine

    [snip]
    [Maxine-whoever-you-are, the Tea Party is spelled "Tea Party".
    Try to stop the name-calling, and you can repost your "thoughts". JN]

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    Tel

    Appeals to authority—we have been over this, reputable, real scientists do real science and test, refine theories. Referring to that sort of science is not an appeal to authority! If you like it is an appeal (reference) to empirical fact.

    Problem being that most climate scientists do not release their raw data, and they don’t fully document their methodology so all we get are adjusted and digested results. These are not empirical facts, they are personal opinions on the part of the people performing the adjustment process (homogenization they call it). We have seen this with the canvas buckets that were used to measure sea temperature… adjustments have been injected to compensate for the evaporative cooling, but these adjustments are little more than guesswork. The empirical fact is that the measurements made were not accurate enough to detect a trend of half a degree per century.

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    Mark D.

    Wendy @ 376
    I agree with you. Additionally it seems Maxine has a bag missing.

    Tel, Happy to see you’ve been following here.

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    Roy Hogue

    P. Dragone,

    The USA Tea Party is about as grass-roots as a Venus Fly Trap.

    So you wish!

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    Maxine

    Tel

    Totally wrong! Remember all the emails where they shared data and theories etc? Read up on “peer reviewed literature.”

    NOTHING about [what you say is proven] ED

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    Maxine

    [nice try] ED

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    Maxine

    Wendy 374

    Read the predictions incl timeframe.

    Which scientists?

    Is Monckton a scientist? Where is his peer reviewed literature in reputable scientific journals?

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    Maxine @ 382

    Science is a French word taken from the Latin scientia meaning knowledge or to know.

    Christopher Monckton has no peer or equal when he expounds his knowledge [science]with the sciolists who have put forth the proposition that it is carbon dioxide which keeps us warm and not the Sun,that’s why none of your mob will debate him.

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    Ben

    brc @ 354

    Where did I reference the CSIRO, or the Academy of Science, or Treasury? Unicorn breeding is a poor form of repsonse. If you actually read my reply instead of going to your cut/paste answer #23 you’d realise I said nothing about the science.

    If my ‘rantings’ are so misinformed, please point out where I’m wrong.

    Your underlying assumptions are that:
    1. There is no AGW, despite CSIRO, Australian Academy of Science and most other reputable scientific saying there is. This is inherent in your rejection of any action being needed.

    2. You show no understanding as to how a Price on Carbon works and how it is the preferred mechanism of Economists, including Treasury, to reduce Carbon emissions.

    You are just hopelessly wrong.

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 383

    Christopher Monckton has no peer or equal when he expounds his knowledge [science]with the sciolists who have put forth the proposition that it is carbon dioxide which keeps us warm and not the Sun,that’s why none of your mob will debate him.

    Of course the sun warms us. That is not in dispute.
    The atmosphere plays a role in preventing heat being radiated back into space or otherwise the earth would freeze. But if the atmospheric composition is altered too much, so that it traps too much of the heat originating from the sun and the earth will warm.

    When CO2 is added to the atmosphere in addition to what nature produces, it exceeds the capacity of natural processes to absorb it and the atmosphere will trap more heat leading to warming. [not proven]

    This is [not proven]

    The planet has warmed in the past but over a much longer time frame where adaption and migration of species could take place. [opinion not proven]

    The present warming is a serious threat [also not proven]

    [ED]

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    Ben @ 385

    Can you prove to me that the atmosphere is encased in a greenhouse?

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 386

    Ben @ 385

    Can you prove to me that the atmosphere is encased in a greenhouse?

    No, because it is obvious that it isn’t.

    The heat trapping properties of certain gasses in the atmosphere was discovered 150 years ago. This is what is referred to as the ‘greenhouse effect’.

    Why do you ask such stupid questions? I already accept that you are ignorant. No further proof is required.

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    Ben

    Here is an excellent report on the Convoy of No Confidence

    [move it to http://joannenova.com.au/2011/08/giant-pr-machine-swings-into-gear-against-the-convoy/ ] ED

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    As carbon dioxide is heavier than other atmospheric gases, it precipitates rather than levitates.

    So how does CO2 rise to great heights in the atmosphere, absorb the Suns energy like an inverter, and radiate that energy in only one direction – earthwards?

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    Ben

    Kevin @ 390

    As carbon dioxide is heavier than other atmospheric gases, it precipitates rather than levitates.

    So how does CO2 rise to great heights in the atmosphere, absorb the Suns energy like an inverter, and radiate that energy in only one direction – earthwards?

    Kevin, that is a better and more intelligent question.

    Firstly CO2 is only slightly heavier than the main gasses in the atmosphere (Oxygen and Nitrogen) and atmospheric turbulence generally keeps them mixed. If the atmosphere was still then CO2 would slowly settle.

    The second question is about the greenhouse effect.
    About half of the solar radiation reaches the earths surface and warms it. Some of it doesn’t is reflected back into space by the earth and the atmosphere.

    The greenhouse effect occurs when infrared radiation (caused by the warming of the earths surface) is emitted from the earths surface, is absorbed by gasses in the atmosphere and re-radiated in all directions including some back to earth and thereby further warms the earths surface.

    If we had no greenhouse effect the earth would be about 30 deg cooler. Not good! But too much will cause the earth to warm to temperatures that start to cause severe problems.

    Wikipedia has a more in depth discussion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect

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    Ben @ 391

    So Julia’s tax on Co2 will regulate the Earths temperature by reducing the CO2 pollution content of the atmosphere as close to zero as possible,is that correct?

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    brc

    Ben I don’t know if you’ve got me confused with someone else, but nowhere, at any time, have I ever said that the concept of greenhouse gases warming the earth is wrong.

    What is unknown is the amount of sensitivity to increased co2, and whether that warming will be net beneficial or net negative. You can call me names about this if you like, but the truth is even those closest to the centre of the study on this privately admit this to each other, as we have seen in the various released emails.

    I can assure you that I know exactly how ‘pricing carbon’ works. I’m sure Treasury thinks that a fake market in government-mandated taxes is a dandy idea, given that they are in the business of taking other peoples money. What they have actually failed to do is to convince anyone that the idea will actually change the climate. The incentive to cheat far outweighs the incentive to follow, so the system is doomed to collapse. We have already seen this in evidence in Europe, and that’s a well regulated system.

    Again we see this reference to ‘appeals to authority’ being some sort of canard, some invalid type of argument. This particular logical fallacy is as old as logic itself. An ‘appeal to authority’ is to say ‘such and such is an authority figure, and such and such agrees with me, therefore I am correct’.

    It doesn’t matter if the authority figure is the CSIRO, Obama or the Pope. Something is either correct or it isn’t correct. Either the CSIRO, Obama or the Pope have the data to prove whatever it is they are saying, or they don’t. That’s what people are referring to when they mock appeals to authority. Just because the CSIRO says something is so, it’s not proof that it is so. It’s not proof that it’s not, either. You can say the CSIRO agrees with your position, but it doesn’t make your position any more correct. If this confuses you, a basic primer in logic will help.

    My rejection of action being needed is the futility of the action being suggested. Even if the science is 100% correct, the Australian carbon tax is a futile, destructive action that will not affect the overall outcome, but will reduce this countries ability to improve environmental standards where they really are needed. I’ve said many, many times, even if the science is correct, the suggested action is futile. Not just because Australia is a rounding error in global emissions, but also because no grand global agreement has ever stood the test of time. Many global agreements have been signed to end war, eradicate hunger, eliminate poverty and all the rest. They all fail, because of human nature. I’ve posted on this many times. The only thing you are going to sell people on are improving the lives of themselves and their families. Anything else will be rejected, by force or by vote, depending on the underlying culture. The only chance of changing the output of carbon dioxide is replacement of those energy forms with different technology.

    People are not going to en-masse vote themselves into using less energy. It’s a Greenies dream but it’s also a fantasy. If this was a remotely popular strategy the Amish lifestyle would be widespread. But it isn’t, and every trend in every town in every country is towards more energy consumption per capita. Even if you introduce energy efficiencies in one area, like vehicle fuel economy, the savings just go into more energy consumption somewhere else, like a holiday, a new fridge, a new mobile phone. So the only way to reverse the course of co2 emissions is to introduce new technology that works better than the old technology. Taxing the bejesus out of the old technology will not make this happen, because taxation is a matter of politicians, and, therefore a matter of popular vote. The carbon tax is one of the highest proposed in the world, and yet doesn’t even go close to making solar or wind power remotely competitive. The price has to be indexed to rise year on year, for decades before the current technology is so crippled it can’t compete. And that still doesn’t invent it’s replacement. And then you have the problems of substitution – such as wood and coal fires for heating and cooking. Crank electricity prices too high and people are going to start burning large amounts of wood and coal to heat their homes and factories, just like used to happen. Everyones grandma probably cooked on a wood burning stove, and wood-burning ovens are already making a trendy comeback. So it’s not a stretch to say that this type of mass-substitution would occur, and negate all the gains made by taxing the hell out of centralised, efficient power generated by coal. Already people everywhere are re-installing water tanks to escape high water charges. The same effect will happen with electricity usage, but the substitutions won’t be windmills and solar power, they will be dirty sources of power that are cheap, like picking up stuff and burning it.

    Even if you get one politician who rams through a high energy tax (say, Gillard and Co) the next ones that come along are just going to reverse it if there are votes in it. This cycle may even last 10 years or maybe even 20, but it’s never going to last long term. And if you argue that point, you can englighten us all on the last piece of revolutionary new technology that was introduced as a result of taxing the old one into submission.

    I know you like to think of people on this blog as uneducated idiots who just absorb Alan Jones and regurgitate but the truth is staring you right in the face that your convenient stereotyping has major problems with it. You like to put people in boxes labelled ‘idiots’ so you can ignore their opinions. You can continue to do that if you like, I don’t particularly care. But it’s not the way things are.

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 392

    Ben @ 391

    So Julia’s tax on Co2 will regulate the Earths temperature by reducing the CO2 pollution content of the atmosphere as close to zero as possible,is that correct?

    Kevin, you disappoint me. You are regressing back to the ridiculous.

    All nations need to co-operate in this venture to reduce the amount of CO2 being added to the atmosphere so that we can stabilise the level before the temperature causes major problems.

    Even if all anthromorphic CO2 was to cease tomorrow, CO2 persists in the atmosphere for a long time and climate change would continue for some years before stabilising and gradually reversing.

    Zero atmospheric CO2 is not desirable for obvious reasons and in any event is unattainable. No greenhouse effect would make the planet too cold and plants ‘breathe’ CO2.

    Policies need to be directed to allow for decoupling economic growth from ever increasing CO2 emissions. This will require considerable adjustment in the economy but economic growth will continue, just using different technologies.

    A price on CO2 emissions promotes this by making alternative technologies relatively cheaper.

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    Maxine

    Phil 370

    Yes I know what a null hypothesis is, and the alternative hypothesis. I do hold a science degree.

    Kevin Moore @ 384 So Mockton has no scientific credentials. thank you.

    Tel @ 378 look up “peer reviewed literature.”

    Hmmm from way back when, someone wrongly asserted that there was science even back in classical greek. Wrong. That was all appeal to authority (Aristotle) not empirical testing.

    Ben 386-Ed do you have certain knowledge that ben was wrong? I doubt it. You could have asked him for citations not heavily censored him. As best as can be shown, what Ben was trying to say is correct.

    ben 389-hilarious! giant PR effort for a pissant effort? Desperate or something Jo?

    Kevin Moore 390 CO2 would only precipitate if it was reduced below its freeing point. The heavy CO2 does not sink down to the bottom of the atmosphere either, too much mixing by wind. How its greenhouse effect is made is due to the structure of the molecule. Graphs of temperature all show it going up as CO2 levels rise. ditto sea levels.

    Kevin 391 Australia’s ETS plus those of other countries/states etc will reduce the amount of CO2 being emitted. the first part of the ETS Bill went through both houses this week, this green part of the ETS will provide carbon sinks. This won’t be done in a hurry but it must be started.

    brc 393 there are innumerable papers re sensitivities and forcings. No one believes it???

    Meanwhile, GetUp! released modelling by Essential Research indicating there was majority support for taking action on climate change, when references to carbon tax were removed from the questions.
    Sixy-seven per cent of the 1000 respondents agreed that ”Australia should do its fair share when it comes to taking action to cut carbon pollution, even if some countries are not doing theirs” and 71 per cent agreed that ”big polluters should pay for their carbon emissions if that money is used to invest in renewable energy, support households and assist companies with the transition to a clean energy future”.
    Another 55 per cent agreed the government was right to impose a temporary ban on live cattle exports. ‘

    Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/nationa … z1VoUKBhfs

    Big difference between CSIRO and Obama and the Pope–the latter are not scientists or scientific organisations and any reference to something they say would be an appeal to authority but if CSIRO pronounced on a matter they had researched it is not an appeal to authority.

    If we didn’t introduce the ETS then our exporter would suffer increasingly from green tariffs levied against us in the countries we export to. Qantas, as soon as the ETS is in place will no longer need to pay a levy on landing in the UK to name just one.

    The ETs s a complex tax and if you think Abbott would really reverse it if ever elected PM you will be disappointed. Labor vowed to wind back the GST, hasn’t happened.

    For the rest do some reading. geez!

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    Ben @ 394

    Julia said, “We must get rid of carbon [dioxide] pollution”.

    So one would assume that her aim was to get CO2 “pollution” in the atmosphere down to zero.

    Your saying that Julia was just talking crap.

    What then is the optimum content of CO2 in the atmosphere and how will Julia’s tax sustain that optimum?

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    Maxine

    Kevin. No you are likely willfully misunderstanding what was said. It is about reducing emissions.

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    Ben

    Kevin @ 396
    When you have a sensible question I will respond.

    From now on when you are clearly just playing stupid games I will ignore you.

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    Maxine

    This is what happens when astroturfers manufacture a “grass roots” action with lots of media:

    Country towns have been left with a huge clean-up bill and piles of unused food after ”thousands” of truck drivers rallying against the Federal Government failed to show up.
    The 220-strong town of Wallendbeen was contacted by Convoy of No Confidence organisers 11 days ago and told to prepare for up to 1000 hungry protesters – but locals say only 10 turned up.

    Wallendbeen Hotel owner Kerry Murphy rostered on four extra staff members, hired beer glasses, bought extra kegs and purchased supplies for 300 bacon and egg rolls.

    ”We only sold 10 bacon and egg rolls,” she said. ”We don’t know what to do, we are a bit depressed. It was a big flop, we busted our nuts for nothing and prepared for days but only 10 trucks arrived.”

    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/convoy-no-show-hurts-stocked-up-pubs/2267087.aspx

    Chief Minister Katy Gallagher welcomed the smooth passage of the protest but said the Government was unhappy with the wasted effort by ACT Government agencies in managing the event. Northbourne Avenue and the Tuggeranong Parkway both recorded declines of 25 per cent in traffic levels between 8am and 9am yesterday as commuters tried to avoid the congestion that never materialised.

    There were 400 less vehicles on Northbourne Avenue in the one-hour period and 770 less on the Tuggeranong Parkway.

    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/acts-huge-convoy-bill/2267088.aspx

    Who will reimburse the ACT and small country businesses?

    <[See Mark D #429 - As usual, the situation is much more complicated that painted by the who-knows "astroturfing" anonymous commenters - Sure, I don't know if Maxine is an astroturfer, but if she was real, she could use a real email and a real name.]

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    brc

    Egads the logic fail of the agitators here is astounding in its depth.

    Appeal to Authority is a logical fallacy. You cannot win an argument/prove a point by saying that ‘X’ agrees with you. The worst form is when X is an expert in an unrelated field, but it still is valid when X is an expert in the specific field.

    You can, however, prove a point by referring to specific work done by X which refers to the argument in question.

    So, ‘CSIRO agrees with me’ is an appeal to authority. It is a logical fallacy.

    CSIRO have done some great things in their history. However, generating useful, accurate climate science sadly isn’t one of them. I’m not going to repeat all the reasons – just refer to the Sceptics Handbook, that’s a fair enough summary of my position.

    I dread to do it, but the Wikipedia page of logical fallacies is actually quite good : List of Fallacies

    Specifically, on the ‘Appeal to Authority’:

    Appeal to Authority: (argumentum ad verecundiam) Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true.

    I’ll repeat that last bit : No testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true.

    And yes, that includes the Pope, Obama and the flippin’ CSIRO. Even when you really really really want them to be right, it’s still up to them to offer proof.

    The thread agitators could learn a thing or two on the logical fallacies page. Why, there’s even a listing for ‘correlation does not imply causation‘. Yes, even when it is really really really correlated. The truth is an uncaring, ruthless so-and-so. In fact, the entire page reads like a laundry list of the fallacious arguments used at one time or another by the entire global warming movement. Mix it in with the ‘Rules for Radicals’ and you’ve just about got the entire spectrum of arguments covered.

    If only they could actually get the science right, and release the data to prove it. Then the need for all those fallacies would just evaporate. And we could all move on to arguing about something else. Sadly, though, the debate isn’t remotely over.

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    Maxine

    Oh gawd brc

    I did say where the CSIRO had researched something. Stretching. Monckton Sceptics sites ARE appeals to authorities.

    Are the muthatruckers and their astroturfers going to clean up and reimburse those towns/businesses?

    The complete flop of a demo rather destroys the idea of the Convoy of No Idea being a grass roots thing, what?

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    Maxine

    brc if you don’t accept genuine scientific as scientific and insist only crackpots like Monckton (Appeal to Authority indeed!) who have not done a stroke of work on the subject are valid. that is all just Appeal to authority. How can we argue and debate?

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    Maxine:
    August 23rd, 2011 at 12:42 pm
    Wendy 374
    Read the predictions incl timeframe.
    Which scientists?
    Is Monckton a scientist? Where is his peer reviewed literature in reputable scientific journals?

    Is Gore a scientist? Are Lindzen, Curry, Spencer, Pielke?

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    Ben:
    August 23rd, 2011 at 1:01 pm
    Your underlying assumptions are that:
    1. There is no AGW, despite CSIRO, Australian Academy of Science and most other reputable scientific saying there is. This is inherent in your rejection of any action being needed.

    Sorry, you are just plain wrong ben. AGW is a supposition waiting for an hypothesis. Once you disprove the null hypothesis, then we can begin the process of building a new hypothesis, which will be tested to advance it to theory. Your whole premise is wrong and you are now demanding people start at stage 3 without ever having gone through the first 2 stages. That is not science – that is religion.

    real scientists know that.

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    Maxine:
    August 23rd, 2011 at 3:09 pm
    Phil 370

    Yes I know what a null hypothesis is, and the alternative hypothesis. I do hold a science degree.

    Astrology does not count. State it.

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    P. Dragone

    The people who organised that flop of a convoy and sucked in those few who actually drove in it should apologise to and reimburse costs of, the people and traders in the little towns who were told to expect a thousand trucks and lost out when next to none turned up.

    What about the little rural town that made food for 1000 and had most of it unsold, and another where they had 1000 hotdogs and sold TEN? The local pub hired extra glassware, bought in extra beer and put on three extra staff.

    What are they, collateral damage?

    Care about the little people? Grass-roots protest? Not a stunt for one Mr Tony Abbott?

    Tell it to the penguins, they might believe it.

    Shame, shame, shame.

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    P. Dragone

    Maxine,
    ‘Appeal to authority” is the glass jug they crouch behind when they have no-where else to hide.

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    P. Dragone:
    August 24th, 2011 at 12:15 am
    The people who organised that flop of a convoy and sucked in those few who actually drove in it should apologise to and reimburse costs of, the people and traders in the little towns who were told to expect a thousand trucks and lost out when next to none turned up.

    Boy the spin meisters are out in full! next they will be trying to convince everyone it never happened! What is it they fear so much?

    P. Dragone:
    August 24th, 2011 at 12:19 am
    Maxine,
    ‘Appeal to authority” is the glass jug they crouch behind when they have no-where else to hide.

    Um, no. The alarmist are the ones always appealing to authority. Skeptics use only science to ask questions. An anathema to the religious, but necessary for real science.

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    Daryl

    Flop.

    Alan Jones = bully

    The Constitution wins.

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    Roy Hogue

    Ben @398,

    August 23rd, 2011 at 5:26 pm

    Kevin @ 396

    When you have a sensible question I will respond.

    From now on when you are clearly just playing stupid games I will ignore you.

    So Ben, let’s call it like it is. Kevin asks a key question and you dismiss him? You’ve been a self-righteous little jackass for too long. Get a day job and a life before you make a complete ass of yourself. Nitwit!

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    Robina

    Phil @ 403 Did Maxine cite them as authority figures? No!

    Did YOU use Monckton as an authority figure? YES!

    Phil 404-your description of hypothesis>theory doesn’t quite work that way. AGW is a valid and well supported theory.

    Phil 405-I have a degree from one of the “real” universities, that is all you are entitled to ask for. It is one of the hard sciences.

    Phil 408-real people described how they were told by demo organisers of 1000 people coming through. There is a news article quoted above, you can contact the people yourself. flop. astroturf, google those terms. here is the newspaper article concerned;

    This is what happens when astroturfers manufacture a “grass roots” action with lots of media:

    Country towns have been left with a huge clean-up bill and piles of unused food after ”thousands” of truck drivers rallying against the Federal Government failed to show up.

    The 220-strong town of Wallendbeen was contacted by Convoy of No Confidence organisers 11 days ago and told to prepare for up to 1000 hungry protesters – but locals say only 10 turned up.

    Wallendbeen Hotel owner Kerry Murphy rostered on four extra staff members, hired beer glasses, bought extra kegs and purchased supplies for 300 bacon and egg rolls. ”We only sold 10 bacon and egg rolls,” she said. ”We don’t know what to do, we are a bit depressed. It was a big flop, we busted our nuts for nothing and prepared for days but only 10 trucks arrived.”

    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/lo … 67087.aspx

    Chief Minister Katy Gallagher welcomed the smooth passage of the protest but said the Government was unhappy with the wasted effort by ACT Government agencies in managing the event. Northbourne Avenue and the Tuggeranong Parkway both recorded declines of 25 per cent in traffic levels between 8am and 9am yesterday as commuters tried to avoid the congestion that never materialised.
    There were 400 less vehicles on Northbourne Avenue in the one-hour period and 770 less on the Tuggeranong Parkway.

    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/lo … 67088.aspx

    What is it they fear so much? Certainly not a flop of a protest the real truckies didn’t want a bar of! What a stupid, ego-protecting statement that is!

    And no Phil you are the one that appeals to authority, sites of non-science that bolster your comfortable illusion AGW isn’t happening.

    Roy 409-Phil is like that tho, if you don’t quote one of his sites you are said be using anti-science. That is not the scientific attitude, that is someone bolstering a belief, a faith. Let him come out with a well-phrased question quoting some actual reference and we can debate. It is like arguing with a christian-he just keeps referring to different parts of the bible to justify whatever he is saying, he is not debating just bolstering his christian beliefs. Futile.

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    Mark

    Roy Hogue #409

    Ben stated earlier that he once ran a small business. Maybe he turned it into an even smaller business or a non-existent one.

    If he’d been successful why would he be making the sort of comments that he is now. He seems to be an extraordinarily bitter person for some reason or other.

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    Roy Hogue

    Mark @410,

    His bitterness is something he doesn’t get to foist off on the rest of us, if indeed that’s the case. We all have our problems.

    A lot of Australians have banked a whole lot on action to get some semblance of sanity back into their government and their lives. The Thompson family I know for sure has lost their entire dream because of the blatant dishonesty at just about every level of their own government. Peter Spencer is another. Some help and encourage and some are Ben, Maxine, Brookes, MattB and [add your own list here]. I have no idea why anyone would tolerate the nonsense from such people for so long without calling them what they are.

    The world is now at the place where the rubber meets the road both literally and figuratively. I choose to encourage those who take action. I’m no fan of those who want to discourage them. I even called out Bulldust in another thread for his discouraging statement, though perhaps I didn’t have a full right to do it. But you either build or you tear down.

    I think soon enough everyone will have to decide for real, not just in words on a blog.

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    Mark D.

    Robina sounds JUST LIKE MAXINE

    Those towns full of smart business people should have planned better. They should have relied on government information (like sea level rise and temperature rise, and Glacier shrinkage) not the “convoy numbers”

    Robina then wails:

    huge clean-up bill and piles of unused food

    Must have been some really shitty food to go bad that fast and be left in a pile. No wonder the convoy passed them by. The beer (if they really ordered extra kegs) will last for months.

    Your whole story reeks of a trumped up BS lie. Get me a phone number to call Kerry Murphy otherwise I think you are full of BS.

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    Mark D.

    Roy @ 410

    You’ve been a self-righteous little jackass for too long. Get a day job and a life before you make a complete ass of yourself. Nitwit!

    Good call Roy but it that applies equally to Ben, Maxine, Dragqueen, and our newest bitch Robina.

    Gloves off…….

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    Robina

    Mark @ 412-that sort of post has no place here in a debate!

    Mark D-the food and help and other supplies were ordered because a convoy organiser rang them. nothing to do with AGW/sea level rises. These people were duped! I think the truckies/organisers could contribute something towards these peoples’ costs. I posted the newspaper article, you could work out who to ring to help clean up/contribute to costs. Come on, you were all for the convoy or was that only on paper, when there was no come back on you and it felt good to be part of a mob?

    I have worked jan 66 to Feb 2009, 42 years. One two-month break on the dole when I was suffering the effects of a serious car accident (not caused by me.) I have started and run two businesses employing many people, putting food on others tables! I bet that is much more than you can say Mark D.

    The speed at which those here distance themselves from the harm this idiotic convoy stunt caused to small businesses and towns (and caused expense to the ACT govt that wasn’t necessary because of the tiny numbers of trucks) reflects very badly on them.

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    Mark D.

    HARM HARM? You don’t get that the Co2 tax is what these regular folks were trying to save your sorry old ass from.

    Do you stand by the tax of your lifetime?

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    Mark D.

    the food and help and other supplies were ordered because a convoy organiser
    rang them.

    Three possibilities:

    1.it isn’t true and made up to fit the agenda.
    2. it is true and the shopkeeper supported the event therefore didn’t mind the risk.
    3. it is true and the shopkeeper was negligent for not obtaining prepayment. This would mean from a business standpoint, the shopkeeper was negligent.

    If you were a business person with 40 years experience you would have not taken the risk right?

    This after the fact story is rampant on the web and being tossed about by all the detractors. I do not believe it for a minute and you are either lying about your business experience or about the business logic of the story. Which one is it?

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    Robina

    Mark D that is crap! You would have heard their complaints, mainly about log books they have to keep.

    They informed people thousands would be coming, ten did. Harm done to people outside the debate. What a feeble argument you put up there! You are tarred with the same brush the organisers now are.

    Not only that, now I am retired and so on less income I will be better off because of the ETS (it is not a carbon tax) as will many, many other people! One the one hand you whinge about the ETS being a pure redistribution play and now you say everyone will be worse off. flip-flop! Try and keep a consistent line of argument going!

    Even if I would be paying a trifle more tax I would be happy-I have seen AGW happening and so applaud efforts to begin tackling GHG emissions! I try and emit as little as I can manage and to make up for that by sequestering carbon in my garden, through growing trees and bushes, using natural, organic mulches, compost and manures rather than plastic mulch and artificial fertiliser. My current car is 2L, the biggest car I have ever owned.

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    Mark D.

    Gee with all that warming you can still keep a garden? Crap you say, tell me why? There was no obligation to feed them was there? Harm? Again you are wrong by logic, by reason and if they were “harmed” they should pursue court action.

    OTHERWISE IT IS A LIE!

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    Mark D.

    Maxine, why did you change your name? Why don’t you “bag me”

    Maxine Who pays you to be here?

    Maxine you lying chameleon. Ran your own business! Two of them you say? HA HA

    Into the ground I’ll bet

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    Robina

    Mark you are harming your cause greatly and belittling yourself into the bargain.

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    Mark D.

    your cause is lost!
    Harming your big government ideology?
    Harming your Tax and spend socialism?
    Harming your chances to mislead?
    Belittling a liar?
    Belittling a paid troll?

    Bag me whilst I sip some tea would you?

    Until you answer questions put to you, I’ll treat you as I see fit

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    Robina

    More waffle from a loser.

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    Robina:
    August 24th, 2011 at 10:45 am
    Phil @ 403 Did Maxine cite them as authority figures? No!

    Did YOU use Monckton as an authority figure? YES!

    Show me where I used Monckton as an authority figure. You either are a liar, ESL, or reading impaired.

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    411Robina:
    August 24th, 2011 at 10:45 am
    Phil 404-your description of hypothesis>theory doesn’t quite work that way. AGW is a valid and well supported theory.
    Oh geez! We have a religion nut. No it is not. There are actually very few theories in science as they are almost as valuable as facts. AGW has not even gotten to the hypothesis stage as the null hypothesis has yet to be disproven!

    Phil 405-I have a degree from one of the “real” universities, that is all you are entitled to ask for. It is one of the hard sciences.

    in what? Voodoo? Ecclesiastic studies? Not science. Your ignorance is appalling

    Phil 408-real people described how they were told by demo organisers of 1000 people coming through. There is a news article quoted above, you can contact the people yourself. flop. astroturf, google those terms. here is the newspaper article concerned;

    It is called spin – I see where your education is at – Politics, not science, or you would understand the difference. Those who fear the convoy, have to diminish it, justas those who fear the American Tea Party have to insult it. They have nothing of substance to offer in rebuttal – just like you.

    This is what happens when astroturfers manufacture a “grass roots” action with lots of media:

    Sounds like you do not know (again) what you are talking about. The convoy was created by regular people. Given the size of Australia, I would say it was a very impressive convoy (actually plural).

    And no Phil you are the one that appeals to authority, sites of non-science that bolster your comfortable illusion AGW isn’t happening.

    I am begging to think you are simply a troll. Again you lie. Show me where anyone other than Adam, or the other warmists have appealed to authority? It is hard to do as a skeptic since the “consensus” has told us we are wrong. So which authority would we appeal to?

    Roy 409-Phil is like that tho, if you don’t quote one of his sites you are said be using anti-science.

    One of my sites? I see, and your site is – what? Voodoo, lies, and religious memorabelia? Try a site that does not censor opposing view points. That would be a start. Your ignorance is ugly.

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    Robina:
    August 24th, 2011 at 12:22 pm
    Mark @ 412-that sort of post has no place here in a debate!

    Whaat? So no one can call you guys on the lies you spout? I see you are religious. What next? Threaten to gas us, tattoo us, lock us in jail? Maybe just execute us – your fellow religious have already threatened that, oh and do not forget blowing us up!

    I have worked jan 66 to Feb 2009, 42 years. One two-month break on the dole when I was suffering the effects of a serious car accident (not caused by me.) I have started and run two businesses employing many people, putting food on others tables! I bet that is much more than you can say Mark D.

    I have worked 142 years with none on the dole! Yes, that is a gross exageration, just as yours. But that apparently is all you need to believe. Just someone you have decided to trust (like algore) and then their word is sacrosanct. Gee, I wonder if he says the moon is made of green cheese when you will start arguing that!

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    Robina:
    August 24th, 2011 at 12:57 pm
    Mark D that is crap! You would have heard their complaints, mainly about log books they have to keep.

    Enough already. You are not Joanne, so you cannot tell mark what is or is not appropriate. You are not god, so you cannot know what is in the mind of the people you supposedly champion (who will be hurt far more by the carbon tax than any wasted food). You are indeed a troll who has no facts, just a religious fervor that rivals Muslim extremists.

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    Mark D.

    I cut this from another thread: http://joannenova.com.au/2011/08/giant-pr-machine-swings-into-gear-against-the-convoy/#comments

    Ian Hill:
    August 24th, 2011 at 6:32 pm edit

    I had to take a detour to Cootamundra, so missed the Wallenbeen arrival but caught up with the rest of the SA convoy later at Harden. They said that they had every intention of having the meal at Wallenbeen but there were already so many trucks there that the police told them to go on to Harden straight away. When I saw the Wallenbeen setup there wasn’t a lot of room. Therefore the logistics of the situation says there’s no way that all those meals would have been sold even if there were enough hungry buyers.

    An eyewitness explaining that the POLICE moved them on. So maybe the POLICE should have to pay for all the “damages” ?

    Actually maybe the “reporters” that twisted the story should have to pay…..

    [thanks Mark! That is very interesting, and agrees somewhat with Mick Pattells comments that managing hundreds of large trucks is very difficult and he was afraid of this getting too big. He went out of his way to be as helpful and polite as possible. -- JN]

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    Roy Hogue

    Robina @419.

    Even if I would be paying a trifle more tax I would be happy-I have seen AGW happening and so applaud efforts to begin tackling GHG emissions!

    So now we have another one who has seen AGW happening…another real live one to replace Maxine.

    Spare me, please. Your imagination is getting the better of you.

    You worked from 1966 to 2009 and so what? I’ve worked from July 1957 to this very day and still working. That calculates out to 54 years and counting.

    You have a degree and so what? I have bachelors and masters degrees in computer science from a school called West Coast University. They cater to working adults. No one ever heard of them except those who were grateful for the opportunity they provided. No one was there to pay my way through a big name school. So I did it the hard way; over many years; working nights and going to school all day; working all day and going to school at night; and always sitting up late doing the studying. And for all that time I had a wife and a family to support and take care of. Yes, I have degrees and I’m proud of them. But I don’t throw them in someone’s face to make myself seem important or feel good, much less then refuse to say what degrees and from where.

    So don’t come around here pushing bullshit to people who know the difference and expect not to be told off.

    If you ran two businesses; if you have the degree you say you do; then out with the details or be a liar.

    Robina, the cards are dealt, all the players have drawn what they want from the dealer and the chips are all on the table. I’ve called your bluff. Fold or show your hand.

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    Robina

    Chips are on the table, science of AGW wins.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-24/climate-fight-does-little-to-sway-public/2854224

    Next month the ETS Bills will be introduced and they will pass. Abbott will not reverse them even if he becomes PM and that is not as likely as the polls may suggest.

    So, you lose!

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    Mark D.

    Sorry Robina, if you are right, you lose.

    PS the experts said the same thing about Obamacare. Stay tuned loser.

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    Ben

    Mark D. @ 432
    What is the relevance to a healthcare plan in the US to the ‘Convoy of No Consequence’ in Australia?

    Just wondering.

    BTW, Australia spends about half as much per capita as the US and has a health scheme that covers 100% of the population. The US really is rather backward when it comes to healthcare, except for the wealthy.

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    Cate S

    Hey there people, home again.
    Now, what a success! Never experienced anything like this, very humbling experience. People from all walks of life, all political persuasions, terrific support WOW!
    On the way home, where ever we stopped, people congratulating the NRFA – and motivated to speak up now more than ever – looks like to Convoy is going to continue on in peoples lives now too!
    Now, haven’t read all the posts in here, few points, you know i am on of the helpers, er…can anyone show me a credible link or quote of numbers from NRFA, or myself? Ahem :)
    Nope, didn’t think so “)
    We are still counting signatures of the petition put out…irrespective of legalities, this is peoples right to still have their say, people have requested that the petition remain up, as they are STILL printing it and getting signatures! So far in excess of 30,000 signatures, in approx ten days..hmmm…looks like people want an election hey? :)
    No, there was no big business backing the convoy, no speakers were paid, the Tea Party had NOTHING to do with the organizing of it, ahh…so many rumours started, so many untruths!
    I felt quite sorry for the Greens, Labor and Independent voters in the crowds, as they held their banners asking why THEIR ELECTED MP’s would not come down and speak to them…disgusting the way that they have treated their constituents.
    The name calling which we have all heard about now, has done irreparable damage now, the arrogance of those MP’s will have “consequences” for their actions, and rightly so.
    The WA Greens MP..oh, the shame…his empty rhetoric, and excuse making was called to account on the Tuesday the 23rd of August by a 23yr old speaker, and yet the Greens MP would not speak to her, even though she stated she would protect him from the Evil Pensioners in the Crowd…Gee…how scary!!! (not!)
    Better go check a few sites, and see how many more “mis representations” about the Convoy are out and about…sheesh, talk about conspiracy theories now, lol!
    Must have “cut a bit close to the bone” to get such a reaction!
    Cheer Cate :)

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    Cate S

    PS…er…Who what and when did any organizer ring any of the establishments and “tell them” to order in extra food?…Dear oh dear, defamation central :)
    Careful people, check your “facts” because I am checking your comments :)

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    Mark D.

    Ben what relevance does your question at 433 have to what I said at 432?

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    Mark D.

    Cate, thanks for the update.

    Please note if you read my posts and see Tea Party mentioned it is not that I “know” the tea party is involved in AU or the Convoy. In fact there is no “Tea Party” per se here in the US. Tea Party represents a new activism, a new concern for restoring sanity in government. If I used “Tea Party” in describing what is happening in AU it is only a comparison not a literal political “party”. I hope that isn’t taken as a misrepresentation.

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    Ben

    Mark D. @ 436

    Ben what relevance does your question at 433 have to what I said at 432?

    Well Mark, I am sorry about your cognitive difficulties so I will go through it again.

    At 432 you said:

    Sorry Robina, if you are right, you lose.

    PS the experts said the same thing about Obamacare. Stay tuned loser.

    Well there you are, you threw in ‘obamacare’ which I understand to be a reference to the minor improvements Pres. Obama has made to the woeful US healthcare system.

    So I said at 433:

    What is the relevance to a healthcare plan in the US to the ‘Convoy of No Consequence’ in Australia?

    Just wondering.

    I said that because this thread is supposed to be about the ‘Convoy of whatever’ and couldn’t see what it had to do with the US healthcare system.

    But anyway, since you had raised ‘obamacare’ I made the observaton:

    BTW, Australia spends about half as much per capita as the US and has a health scheme that covers 100% of the population. The US really is rather backward when it comes to healthcare, except for the wealthy.

    I wonder if any of the Australian supporters of the ‘Convoy’ would prefer the US healthcare system over ours?

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    Mark D.

    Ben, cognitive difficulties? here take this advice from Robina 422:

    you are harming your cause greatly and belittling yourself into the bargain.

    If you read my post that is in response to Robina @ 431, your cognition (if it exists) will find no mention of the convoy. Therefore your comment @ 433 makes no sense. I invite you (with your superior cognition) to demonstrate where I made any connection between Obamacare and the convoy.

    If you are able to read and understand Robina @ 431 she makes a broad “you lose” statement. She further makes several claims one of which is “Abbott will not reverse them even if he becomes PM and that is not as likely as the polls may suggest.”

    Are you able to follow so far?

    If you follow what is happening with Obamacare you’ll know that repeal is possible even probable yet people made broad comments that once passed into law it would never be repealed.

    I made NO comment about the Convoy and neither did Robina. Take your insults and neatly turn them back on yourself dumbass.

    PS this piece of crap:

    The US really is rather backward when it comes to healthcare, except for the wealthy.

    Is not supported by fact. It is offensive propaganda. Just because you support socialism doesn’t make everything else “backwards”. The whole world envies our advances in medical technology. Contrary to your BS the poor are well cared for here. You are a liar, a propagandist, ignorant and ill mannered.

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    BobC

    Ben (@433):
    August 25th, 2011 at 7:20 pm

    BTW, Australia spends about half as much per capita as the US and has a health scheme that covers 100% of the population.

    Of course the drugs that countries with socialized medicine use (those that the government allows, that is) are developed in countries with quasi-free medical systems (like the US). Socialist countries have long found the formula for cheap health care — revert to the 1960′s. New York City has as many MRI machines as Canada. The Canadian system works so well because Canadians can easily come to the US if they really need state-of-the-art health care.

    My small town has 3 24/7 health care clinics that anybody (even undocumented immigrants without money) can walk into any time and get treatment. I pay for it when I buy medical services from them at elevated prices. Ever tried to go to an emergency room in England on a weekend?

    The US really is rather backward when it comes to healthcare, except for the wealthy.

    Somebody has to pay for the rest of the world’s cheap health care — currently it it the rich in the US, but we are changing that — advanced drugs are already getting to be in short supply and many fewer ones will be developed in the future (since Obamacare won’t pay for their use, and private insurance will be defunct).

    Get ready for the brave new world of ’60s health care — it’s all you’ll get in the near future.

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    BobC

    Ben:
    I wonder if any of the Australian supporters of the ‘Convoy’ would prefer the US healthcare system over ours?

    According to the World Health Organization, America’s health system ranked first in responsiveness to patients’ needs for choice of provider, dignity, autonomy, timely care, and confidentiality.

    If it was as easy to get to the US from Australia as it is from Canada, then probably those who really need immediate treatment might come here, as do many Canadians under those circumstances.

    In Canada, when you get put on a 6 month waiting list for an MRI to see if your headaches are caused by brain cancer, it doesn’t matter if you have (or can get) the $2500 to pay for the scan; You wait until it’s your turn (or until you die) — or else, you drive over the border to the US and get a scan the next day.
    (Based on a Canadian woman’s story in the local paper last year — she had brain cancer, but had to also have the operation in the US, as the Canadian health authorities wouldn’t accept the Mayo Clinic’s diagnosis and insisted she continue waiting for a scan in Canada. She would have died before getting the scan in Canada.)

    BTY: If you die of brain cancer while waiting for an MRI scan, and there isn’t an autopsy, it doesn’t count as a failure to cure the brain cancer, since it was never diagnosed.

    A lot of countries’ health statistics are spun like this — for example, in Japan, it doesn’t count as a “live birth” unless the baby lives for 24 hours. This significantly lowers their incidence of “infant” mortality.

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    Roy Hogue

    BobC @440,

    They don’t understand. That’s because they don’t want to understand. Anyone who can’t see beyond the word “free” or the phrase “low cost” gets what they make for themselves. I’m spending my time looking for ways to defeat that nonsense here. I don’t go down without a fight. I’m not resolved to failure. I’m not resolved to another Obama term, even though I fear he might get one.

    I see that after making the rounds of Canberra, the first convoy apparently went home again. Losing strategy is losing strategy no matter what part of life it’s found in. So Robina can brag (for now).

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    Mark

    Roy Hogue:

    I see that after making the rounds of Canberra, the first convoy apparently went home again. Losing strategy is losing strategy no matter what part of life it’s found in. So Robina can brag (for now).

    I’m not so sure, Roy. Those ALP clowns may parade and posture in their coward’s castle but inwardly they know that, along with the disastrous opinion polls, there is something happening out there.

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    Mark D.

    I’d have to agree with Mark. Clearly the convoy has had an effect. If it didn’t come off as a slick well planned “media event” so much the better. It was a grass roots event, well attended and LOTS of behind the scenes support.

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    The words of Martin Luthers [1483 -1547] hymn “A Mighty Fortress” may make those who can’t handle the mention of Christianity cringe,but they may serve as a reminder for those Christians who dread the flood of evil gaining strength in this world, that though you may be small in number,the enemies of Christianity will be defeated.

    “A mighty fortress is our God,
    A bulwark never failing.
    Our helper He amid the flood
    Of mortal ills prevailing.
    For still our ancient foe
    Doth seek to work us woe.
    His craft and power are great,
    And armed with cruel hate,
    on earth is not his equal.

    Did we in our own strength confide,
    Our striving would be losing,
    Were not the right Man on our side,
    The Man of Gods own choosing,
    Dost ask who that may be?,
    Christ Jesus, it is He,
    Lord Sabaoth His name,
    From age to age the same,
    And He must win the battle.

    And though this world with devils filled,
    Should threaten to undo us,
    We will not fear,for God hath willed
    His truth to triumph through us.
    The Prince of Darkness grim,
    We tremble not for him.
    His rage we can endure,
    For lo,his doom is sure.
    One little word shall fell him.

    That Word above all earthly powers
    Not thanks to them abideth.
    The Spirit and the gifts are ours
    Through Him who with us sideth.
    Let goods and kindred go,
    This mortal life also.
    The body they may kill,
    Gods’Truth abideth still.
    His kingdom is forever…”

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    Mark

    Mark D.

    Yup. People don’t drive up to 3,000 kilometres on a whim. Those few ALP members who have ever barked a knuckle in a real job know this.

    They are staring at an electoral conflagration. Yet, like Mr. Micawber, they keep hoping that “something will turn up”.

    It will, of course. Just that it won’t be what what they want.

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 445
    So this is now all about religion?

    This thread gets weirder and weirder!

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    Rob Moore

    Hello to all our supporters on this quality site.
    Leanne and I got home last night after our historic trip. It was great to meet up with Matt and Janet again and their young family . I’m sure that we will all do like Richo says of the ALP- “whatever it takes” to ensure this dynamic family doesn’t get destroyed by this disgusting Global Warming hoax.

    We wrote out a summary that I posted to our members and will copy in below. To keep it brief -I didn’t mention Prof Bob Carter and Malcolm Roberts(Galelao Movement) who gave a stirring presentation on the stupidity of our policy makers and the hoax.

    The Convoy of no Confidence has been a remarkable success.

    I was extremely proud to be part of the 2000 plus peaceful protest. It was an unprecedented military style logistical effort performed by ‘Salt of the Earth” Australians and their many thousands of supporters along each of the 11 routes.

    The commitment of the Convoy leaders and the heirarchy of the National Road Freighters Association was an inspiration. The strength of character to embark on this unknown venture showed the true courage of everyone’s conviction despite the threat of failure and ridicule.

    After our symbolic drive through the Parliamentry precinct we all gathered on the lawn for the official proceedings. There was a wide spectrum of speakers representing Large Industry, Small Business and Social Groups. While all political parties had an open invitation to speak, only various conservative coalition members responded. Our own Just Grounds members Senator Joyce and Williams gave memorable speeches as did Bronwen Bishop and Tony Abbott. Two outstanding young speakers were, Rashida Khan from the Northern Territory and Stuart Austin representing Australians Supporting Beef Farmers.

    Due to a week of intense buildup and anticipation the Convoy had captured the imagination of the greater population. This was largely due to the wonderful support of the Talkback Radio across the country, which is the defacto peoples parliament. The leaders of this were the 2GB network – Alan Jones and Ray Hadley in Sydney, and Steve Price and Andrew Bolt in Melbourne. We sincerely thank them for their tremendous support. Alan Jones arrived from Sydney after doing his breakfast show of 3 hours and proceeded to MC for the next 5 hours without a break. I personally, will not hear a word against this man, as his commitment to results for our country is there for all to see.

    The Convoy of No Confidence was labelled of no ‘consequence’ two hundred metres from where we were in the House of Representitives. This is an insult from a disgraceful government by a minister of no ‘significance’.

    It was resolved that we would not submit the 30 000 strong petition signitures on the day. Given the short timeframe and massive support all over the Australia along the way, we are going to continue gathering signatures with an aim of 1 million to be tabled by Senator Joyce in the parliament.

    The community spirit that the Just Grounds members have shown was one of the bonds that made the Convoy a success. It eliminated the isolation and aided the organisers to communicate ideas into action right across Australia in a matter of weeks. Give yourselves a huge pat on the back.

    We have led by example with the future template for groups to interact and mobilise with one hundred percent participation-all for no cost. This is the beginning of the electronic era for us to be able to STAND OUR GROUND.

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    Mark D.

    Kevin Moore
    What a great hymn. Likely lots of people here won’t/can’t get it but I do..

    I’ll go to bed with the tune in my head

    Thank you and AMEN brother Kevin.

    A MIGHTY FORTRESS IS OUR GOD

    Ben, it isn’t about religion. It is about Faith. Get some before it’s too late.

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    In light of their woeful conduct and harm they are doing to this nation, the Labour Party should cancel their 27th Ben Chifley Memorial Dinner celebrating Chifleys “Light on the Hill” speech. The venue is the Bathurst Panthers Leagues Club, on the 17th September 2011, commencing at 7:30 PM.

    Part of Chifleys’ speech “…..If the movement can make someone more comfortable, give to some father or mother a greater feeling of security for their children, a feeling that if a depression comes there will be work,that the government is striving its hardest to do its best,then the Labour movement will be completely justified…”

    “Ben Chifleys’Light On The Hill Speech”

    http://australianpolitics.com/parties/alp/chifley-light-on-hill-shtml

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    Roy Hogue

    Mark, Mark D.,

    I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. But if I’m Prime Minister in Canberra tonight I’m laughing at the convoy and I push ahead with whatever I can get Parliament to pass — as in carbon tax.

    Once credibility is gone you have little chance of getting it back. They long ago dismissed you and if you aren’t a constant irritant they keep on dismissing you. If the tax becomes law watch them try to keep their seats by appealing to all those who, as Robina so aptly illustrates, will be better off because someone else’s pocket will be picked to make their lives easier. And it just might work. By the way, don’t you know you owe it to them?

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 450

    In light of their woeful conduct and harm they are doing to this nation, the Labour Party….

    Wrong premise Kevin so all that flows from it is wrong.

    The present Govt is doing a great job.
    - Increased pensions
    - Got us through the GFC in better shape than almost all other developed economies.
    - Important reform of health funding.
    - Plain packaging on tobacco products.
    - Interest rates lower than previous govt.
    - Record investment in infrastructure
    - Building the NBN
    - Unemployment rate low by world standards (approx 5%)
    And more…

    All this despite the attempts of Abbott and his rabble to make parliament unworkable and to create an atmosphere of crisis in collusion with shock jocks and astroturf movements like the Convoy of No Consequence.

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    Ben

    Mark D. @ 449

    Ben, it isn’t about religion. It is about Faith. Get some before it’s too late.

    I have faith Mark D. I have great faith that our present government will continue doing a great job and not get sidetracked by the forces of negativity and destruction.

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    Maxine

    God this thread still going on?

    The convoy was a flop, pure and simple. In two weeks time the ETS Bills will be introduced and will be passed in about 4 weeks. 1st July next year it takes effect and people will see the scare campaigns of the MSM, Abbott, the astroturfers are BS.

    After 2013 if Abbott wins (doubt he will, despite present polls, just look at the desperation on the Oppn faces) he won’t roll back the ETS. Instead of fantasising about a rapid roll back try reading Antony Green’s blog on the ABC website.

    Prayer? someone is really desperate!

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    Rob Moore

    Maxine,
    It is personal when you say that something that I have been a part of for the last week -”was a flop” .
    How hard is it sit on your arse being a get up troll -blog warrior??

    I’d back 10000 of your ilk against one of the really capable sensible people that I had the pleasure of meeting in the last week. You quote the ABC- those basket weavers can’t even count correctly to the nearest factor of ten??!!

    Have a look on the ninemsm poll that showed 81% support for our actions 120000 odd votes too -not just the ABC canteen poll. Your mates in Govt are history in the making.

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    Mark

    Abbott might not have to roll back the ETS, it might well roll itself back before the 2015 introduction the way “carbon markets” are going around the world. Don’t suppose there was a reason for that year, the following year after the next election, huh?

    Bjorn Lomborg has stated that by 2100, 20,000 billion dollars will have been spent on this mirage of AGW for a possible couple of hundredths of a degree global temperature reduction. But then, what would he know compared to someone who believes that oil comes from dinosaurs.

    It seems that none of the current flock of screeching, squawking galahs is prepared to state by how much the earth’s “fever” will reduce. They won’t because they can’t.

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    Philmour

    Hey truckers, a great big convoy of antique and vintage trucks, buses etc has just lobbed on Yass. Makes the ‘Convoy of no consequence ‘look pretty sick. At least the local businesses will get a bit of business to cut their losses from the previous non-event!

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    It is said of Christopher Columbus that when he left home he didn’t know where he was going, when he got there he didn’t know where he was, and when he got back he didn’t know where he had been.

    The Australian Ship of State,using Captain Julia’s atheist compass is leaking, has continually lost its way, is all at sea and appears headed for a shipwreck.

    The cork-us while trying desperately to keep the Ship afloat and save it and themselves from shipwreck are at the same time becoming mutinous. Their slim hope of survival it seems being to launch Julia overboard in a rowboat.

    The new form of navigation will be by consensus, but being blind, can’t see that a Ship divided against itself will sink.

    So moving forward it seems that only an astonishing event in the nick of time will save the Australian Ship of State.

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    Maxine

    Kevin Moore.

    What garbage! Christopher Columbus knew where he was headed.

    Meanwhile, the Gillard Labor govt is steaming ahead at a rate of knots. The deluded truckies in your astroturfed futile convoy by now should know that the metre-high stack of regulations covering truckies has been reduced to. . . . . . . . . .just 3 regulations. 188 Bills thru both houses of Parliament since the govt was formed last year.

    Plain packaging one of the latest bits of brilliant policy to be implemented, the ETS week after next, MRRT, precommitment of gambling addicts, the good news just continues. for all abbott’s shouting he is useless.

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    Maxine

    Rob Moore, sorry that me saying exactly what the deluded members of the convoy of No Idea offended you.

    Dragone pointed out that your Petition was in the wrong form and it couldn’t be granted constitutionally. No notice was taken of that sage advice. So, yeah, a small bunch of idiots wasting time and fuel on some pointless exercise. A flop in other words.

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    Roy Hogue

    Maxine,

    In America we have a term for people like you. It’s sufficiently unacceptable, even to Jo’s relaxed standards of decency that I would be [snipped] for saying it. But it has to do with the degree of idiocy someone displays. That term describes you perfectly. Now lest you feel alone, don’t panic. It describes several others posting on this thread so you have company in your affliction.

    Since wisdom completely escapes you, go ahead; rejoice in 188 bills passed and your ETS. Keep your eyes shut and your brain in neutral; and soon your laws may not be written in Canberra anymore but at UN headquarters in New York City. And they will tighten a noose around Australia’s neck as they will around the United States and all the rest of the world if they can. If that happens you will be just one more victim of the collateral damage as they redefine human existence to suit their own plan.

    Laugh at me now. Go ahead. I’m not in a popularity contest and simply don’t care. But don’t cry for help when things start to get bad for you as they have gotten bad for those truck drivers, the Thompson family and Peter Spencer.

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    Ben

    Roy Hogue @ 461

    Since wisdom completely escapes you, go ahead; rejoice in 188 bills passed and your ETS. Keep your eyes shut and your brain in neutral; and soon your laws may not be written in Canberra anymore but at UN headquarters in New York City. And they will tighten a noose around Australia’s neck as they will around the United States and all the rest of the world if they can. If that happens you will be just one more victim of the collateral damage as they redefine human existence to suit their own plan.

    Actually Roy, I am splitting my sides laughing at your delusions as you have revealed them.

    Clearly you are of the ‘One World Government’ conspiracy ilk. You do not deserve to be taken seriously.

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    “Property Rights in Australia”

    http://www.johnston-independent.com/property_rights.html

    Selwyn Johnston – Cairns, QLD

    Independent Community Representatives Advocate

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    Maxine

    Roy, conspiracy theories now?

    You have a good government, one that has by dint of much work and hard negotiating reduced a metre-high pile of regulations covering truckies to just 3 regulations. Real truckies are delighted.

    Next is the ETS that will save your hide and your children and grandchildrens’ hide as well as the hide of those who have the wit to actually see AGW happening. After that the mining tax that will actually help miners and keep money in Australia.

    What does the other side of politics have? A $70Bn black hole that really is more like a $120Bn black hole when you look at their supposed “Budget savings” that they are still carrying on about. That will absolutely stultify policy development.

    When the ETS is in action after 1/7/12 people will see they have been misled— and the ALP has an excellent chance of winning the 2013 election. Even if Abbott was to win they won’t reverse or roll back the ETS for the same reasons Labor didn’t roll back the GST.

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    Maxine,

    The difference between Liberal and Labour is that these days the Liberals seem to do it slower.

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    Roy Hogue

    Next is the ETS that will save your hide and your children and grandchildrens’ hide as well as the hide of those who have the wit to actually see AGW happening. After that the mining tax that will actually help miners and keep money in Australia.

    Frequently asked questions about AGW:

    Q: If Australia implements a carbon (dioxide) tax to limit emissions, how much future temperature increase can be avoided?

    A: Too small to measure.

    Q: What would the money be used for?

    A: Some will be spread around to buy the votes of the foolish who think Robin Hood is still alive and well. Some will go into the pockets of corrupt politicians and those who surround such political pond scum. And some will finance an ever larger and more powerful federal government and United Nations.

    Q: Does a tax create or destroy wealth?

    A: Oh, it destroys it big time. There’s no better way to destroy wealth than a good tax.

    Q: Why are people asking these questions?

    A: Because they’re beginning to notice that their governments are not working in their interest but in the interest of the governing class.

    Q: Why should we care about all this?

    A: There’s no good reason, really. None at all…unless you care about the future of your country and the world around it. None at all…unless you have managed to put your own personal convenience, your desire for a free lunch and a free ride back into perspective. None at all…unless you have a grip on personal responsibility and self-sufficiency. None at all…unless you understand that money is not wealth.

    Q: How much wit does it take to, “…actually see AGW happening?”

    A: Oh, I’d say about half a wit. Certainly no more than that.

    You can stay a fish and keep swallowing the bait or you can learn some critical thinking. It’s your call.

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    “If you don’t read the newspaper you are uninformed,if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed.” Mark Twain.

    “Democracy must be more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.” James Bovard.

    “Just because you don’t take an interest in politics doesn’t mean politics won’t take an interest in you.” Pericles [430 BC].

    “I contend that for a nation to try and tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.” Winston Churchill.

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    Maxine

    Roy lovely cliches there. Pity they are either wrong or don’t apply.

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 468

    Your point is?

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    Ben @ 470

    “To see what is in front of ones nose needs a constant struggle.” George Orwell

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 471

    Quoting George Orwell now? What next, Marx???

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    Ben @ 472

    “Democracy is the road to socialism.” Karl Marx

    “The theory of the communists may be summed up in one sentence. Abolition of private property” Karl Marx, The Communist Manifesto.

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    OZ EXPOSED

    Exposing Those by the Court of Public Opinion

    http://www.ozexposed.com/high-court

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    Joe V.

    Kevin @ 468
    Great quotes. I particularly like the Churchill one.

    “I contend that for a nation to try and tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.”

    Winston Churchill.

    Afraid that bloke is just going to get nowhere ‘though, while taxing your own people to set up supra- national bureaucracies to tie them up in more red tape is rather more destructive than that.

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    Roy Hogue

    Roy lovely cliches there. Pity they are either wrong or don’t apply.

    Maxine, I’m glad you enjoyed the clichés. As for whether they apply or not — you will be finding that out in the months and years to come.

    Conspiracy? I don’t know. I just look at the evidence. It scares me.

    In the meantime England is a good object lesson. They don’t seem to know what hit them. Absent a change of attitude*, Australia will get to where they are now.

    * Attitude: a mental position with regard to a fact or state – Merriam Webster Online Dictionary

    Attitude is everything, Maxine. It can lead you down the road to success or the road to failure. And whichever choice you make will always seem “right” according to your attitude.

    Now I wash my hands of the whole affair. My own country is enough to worry about.

    Have a nice day! And I mean it — I’ve no sarcastic intent.

    —-

    PS: I played with you at post 467 because you invite being tweaked with nearly everything you say. Perhaps I should not do that. But perhaps you should get a more adult outlook on life before speaking out. It’s that attitude thing again.

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    Maxine

    Arctic sea ice still way below (more than two standard deviations) the 1979-2000 average.

    http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

    And the warming goes on and on. Like I keep saying, you can see it about you and denying AGW is just putting fingers in your ears and going “lalalalala can’t hear you” and I still maintain the denialism is because people have seen it and are very very scared yet don’t want to give up their comfortable lifestyle in the the slightest.

    Most people do recognise it is going on which is why the convoy was such a flop.

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    Maxine

    Kevin Moore @ 450:

    give to some father or mother a greater feeling of security for their children, a feeling that if a depression comes there will be work,that the government is striving its hardest to do its best,then the Labour movement will be completely justified…”

    Well what do you think the Rudd govt did in 2008-9? It prevented the worldwide financial crisis from causing high unemployment here! Max unemployment 5.9% at the peak!

    The MRRT will help manufacturing and generally boost the economy further carrying out the mission Chifley imposed. Longer term the CC Bills as they proceed through the years will provide some security, not just though our actions but by the leadership we are showing the world.

    And what are you doing? Criticising the BER, HIP and other anti-recession measures and opposing the ETS and MRRT Bills. And you DARE talk about chifley?

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    Ben

    I doubt it will have much impact on the closed minds which dominate this site, but this article is a good description of what has happened in the US with a major political party now explicitly ant-science.

    [Krugman hmm where have I heard that name before. Can you say Keynesian propaganda?] ED

    Sadly, there are some here who would take Australia in the same direction. But they are not getting much traction thank goodness.

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    Darling Downs land owners will find some good information here:

    http://www.johnston-independent.com/property_rights.html

    Property Rights In Australia

    Selwyn Johnston, Cairns, QLD.

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    Maxine

    Wow, Jo, censorship now? Of a non-keynesian article at that!

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    Maxine

    Anti-science pro-religious right is a growing movement and one that is bad news.

    Christians talk of limiting abortions. They really mean limiting legal, safe abortion. In the back alleys long knitting needles must be being readied!

    Christians talk of no euthanasia meaning more people commit suicide and do it much much earlier than euthanasia would be applied if legal.

    Then they deny evolution and AGW tho evidence of both is plain right in front of their eyes.

    Then dickheads with no special skills but a line in religious bullshit start running for PM or President.

    There you go, that was sort of the tenor of the article that got censored. Keynesianism works, why censor it in the first place?

    [Did the Convoy have a position on abortion? How about evolution or euthanasia? I didn't think so.] ED

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    Ben

    I am dismayed and greatly disappointed at Jo’s censorship of my post at 479.

    I had previously thought highly of Jo’s tolerance of views she may not agree with. But when the views of a Nobel Prize winning economist cannot be tolerated, it is indeed regrettable. All the more so when nonsensical stuff like that linked to in 480 is apparently OK.

    [Jo didn't do it. I did it.] ED

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    Ben

    [Jo didn't do it. I did it.] ED

    Then shame on you. Whoever you are.

    [shame on me? how about shame on you for posting off topic editorials on a nearly dead thread just to get people mad? Prove that conservatives are "anti science" without quoting an editorial. ] ED

    [PS I don't get paid for this volunteer position. So lighten up....]

    [PPS Nobel Prizes are a dime a dozen these days. Just ask the substance-lacking Gore and Obama. ]

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    Joe V.

    GooD on yer Ed.
    You’re being far too tolerant.
    Children need discipline.

    [ thanks :) ] ED

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    Ben, your link: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/29/opinion/republicans-against-science.html?_r=3&hp

    The “anti-science” theme of name-calling in that article by your “Nobel” winner, is just more Orwellian perversion of our language. It’s the people on the pro-carbon-tax team who are hiding declines, losing data, and adjusting without explanations in non-random ways. They are the anti-science players. Perry and most of the other republicans are finally waking up to the exploitation and corruption in science. The Krugmann piece is just more badly informed propanganda.

    No I wouldn’t have censored it, but then again, this thread has a bizarre life of it’s own, and it’s all off topic. We are stepping outside the bounds of normal.

    Thanks to those who keep the thread alive, high in the google rankings and with a record number of comments. It’s evidence of how powerful the Convoy is.

    I am grateful for the help of volunteer moderators keeping watch on this thread. Those who post here as guests can ask politely if they disagree with any decision, but as I’ve always said, people need to self-edit on this site. Those who need too much snipping don’t meet the standards to post here.

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    Wendy

    I agree with Ed.
    Maxine & Ben…..that same Krugman who made the assertions that US towns were having to turn off street lights and tear up roads to maintain them? THAT Krugman?? BWAHAHAHA
    Well, at least he’s in good company…..nobel prize wise with the whinging Gore.

    Thanks Jo, for letting this thread live on!

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    Mark D.

    Same here Wendy, Ben is just mad he doesn’t get his way all the time. You’d think that trolls would understand that it isn’t their blog?

    So Ben I read the Krugman piece; Worthless. He’s wrong, like you are wrong. Science has been corrupted. That’s the kind of science that the Republicans are talking about. Krugman is just doing his part tearing down any opponent of Obama. He is doing his part to protect his liberal turf all of which is more proof of the pending setbacks to socialism in the USA. It’s fun to watch them squirm! Bring out the Tea.

    Nobel prize winners today must have Alfred Nobel spinning in his grave.

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    Joe V.

    More of that Nobel indignation.
    Climate change deniers will be despised just like racists one day, says Al Gore

    That Nobel Committee really should consider introducing re-certification, every few years, just to ensure the noble Laureates are living up to expectation, because ever since Obama’s Laureation, it’s clearly been more about aspiration that achievement. More of an inducement, than a recognition.

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    Rob Moore

    I am self editing here so I will just only say -
    ["Raise your standards Ben and Maxine" -- rephrased. JN]

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    Maxine

    Jo 486

    Just a pail of garbage. The “hide the decline” and the other stuff you quote from climategate does not refer to manipulating scientific data to fit a theory. Anti science stuff also concerns CC disbelief of published scientific data and so the rest was relevant and should not have been censored.

    Rob Moore 490. what fee? I am not associated with getUp in any way shape or form. Finding it hard to keep pretending CC isn’t happening?

    Mark D 488. No, the anti science stuff is religious crap about abortion and evolution that conveniently just happens to include disbelief in climate change, tho that is evident all about you. All for the convenience of big business—you are being used to protect big business profits and privilege.

    Wendy 487 So you know everything is hunky dory in the US? Talk about deluded. . .

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    Mark D.

    Maxipad @ 491

    No, the anti science stuff is religious crap about abortion and evolution that conveniently just happens to include disbelief in climate change, tho that is evident all about you. All for the convenience of big business—you are being used to protect big business profits and privilege.

    So you believe in murdering fetuses?
    You believe evolution is proven?
    CC yes I know you see it in your garden….

    Tho that is evident all about you, you are being used by the biggest monopoly around: GOVERNMENT. Taxes equate to extortion, the privileged (friends of politicians) get the financial rewards of those extorted funds.

    PS thanks for not using the D word.

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    It is the dream of every Useful Idiot to be an Elite and that is partially why Stalin regarded them with such condescending disdain. They can disguise their intent, but they are truly power hungry and always crave the recognition of higher ups; in essence they are political climbers in the sense of social climbers. Most or nearly all receive minimal recognition for their efforts to advance the party line; yet it is endemic among Elites, tyrants, and despots to be power hungry at what ever level they function. Is our government run by a power hungry cadre of Elites? Absolutely.

    It is a precarious position; unfortunately, it is the nature of Useful Idiots to be lacking in reasoning and wisdom, since so much of their life has been in pursuit of ideology, a discipline that requires only rote memorization of the party line and discourages analytical thought processes. Therefore like moths that are fascinated by the flame, they hover in ecstasy before the flame, until they get too close and realize their fatal mistake in one agonizing moment before they crash to the earth and oblivion.

    `

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    2 September 2011 Thought for the Week:

    The Thompsons go to Canberra –5, August 23, 2011:
    “Matt and I both cried. After 4½ days of driving across Australia, hearing from every-day hard-working Australians about how difficult it is to just get on with producing, we had one hell of a welcome to Canberra yesterday morning!
    The overpasses were lined with people clapping, saluting, waving flags, giving us thumbs up. The sound was amazing. Semi trucks, cars, vans, campervans, utes, prime movers … many with Aussie flags flying and most with “no carbon tax” signage on them … drove around and around State Circle yesterday morning in a noisy, beautiful, positive display of people power.

    While Federal Police blocked our way up to the lawns of Parliament House, we continued to drive around the hub of our nation’s political and bureaucratic processes. At long last, we gave up and parked on a side street about 1kilometre away. By the time Matt, the kids and I got to the lawn, Tony Abbott was coming off the stage. We had missed much of the meat of the rally. Of course, it was that time period before the large mid-morning convoy participants arrived that the media took their footage.

    We knew that we would be painted as extremists, but the reports this morning are quite humorous. How could we be both a dangerous, rowdy rabble AND be only 12 in number? A year ago, they would have ignored us. We’re on our way to winning”.

    - – by Janet Thompson at Quadrant

    Do listen to Alan Jones talking about the “Truckies who took part in the convoy” here…

    From Alor.org

    @ 493 Taken from Flopping Aces

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    Keving Moore–re Useful idiots, are you describing yourself? Serious question!

    Extremists and dangerous? Nah, just Useful Idiots to someone

    Mark D –lovely unemotional language “murdering foetuses” you obviously missed my point about backyard abortionists? If a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy early on then she should be able to have a safe procedure. Banning legal aboortions won’t stop abortions, you do realise that? Or are backyard abortions, unclean and unsafe out of sight and out of mind to you? try doing some reading on backyard abortions. Neither you or I can give conceive so it would pay to pause before making blanket statements about what women should do with their bodies. Christians, bah!

    And Mark-it is Repugs and especially Tea Party wankers corrupting science and politics, all for the benefit of others. Useful Idiots.

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    Ben

    Something for the anti-science brigade to read and ponder:

    http://theconversation.edu.au/event-horizon-the-black-hole-in-the-australians-climate-change-coverage-2642

    For the benefit of our American Tea Party friends here, ‘The Australian’ is a national daily newspaper published by the disgraceful Murdoch press.

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    Mark D.

    Jeezs Ben, have you not been paying attention here? The 97% figure is complete Bullship. This article you link to is complete Argument from Authority. I don’t care if it is published by Murdoch.

    Tell me about Lindzen, Spencer, Christy and you know there are many many more. Are you saying they aren’t scientists? You know science is not about consensus don’t you? It only takes one to disprove a theory. That means even IF 97% agree, the 3% are more than enough to spoil your fun.

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    Mark D.

    Maxine, you have NO POINT TO MISS!

    There is no way to rationalize murder.

    You and the aborters make me sad.

    I don’t care if a murderer does it themselves in the “backyard”. They still are murderers. Don’t you get it? It ISN’T just the “women’s body” it is both the woman AND her unborn life.

    Besides this being so way off topic;
    You have no moral compass and I won’t argue with you on this subject any more.

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    Roy Hogue

    Maxine,

    Jo Nova has a very tolerant attitude concerning such as you. That’s good and to her credit. But her blog policy does not constrain me.

    It’s nice to challenge each little thing you bring up. But there is a big issue not being addressed that way. You are a joke. I’ve never seen the likes of you show up on this blog before. You are a waste of time. You are an affront to honest, hard working people the world over. You have contributed nothing but controversy with absolutely nothing as compensation for it.

    Frankly I don’t need you; you need me. You need me and countless others who do the work while you cry and moan over every little grievance.

    We are not your ashtray. If you choose to waste time, go ahead. If you choose to support idiocy, go ahead. If you think there’s no limit to the garbage you can throw in the face of people whose shoes you aren’t qualified to shine, much less to wear, go ahead. But I have had enough of you. Contribute something useful or take your nonsense elsewhere.

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    The science of mine and thine — the science of justice — is the science of all human rights; of all a man’s rights of person and property; of all his rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
    It is the science which alone can tell any man what he can, and cannot, do; what he can, and cannot, have; what he can, and cannot, say, without infringing the rights of any other person.
    It is the science of peace; and the only science of peace; since it is the science which alone can tell us on what conditions mankind can live in peace, or ought to live in peace, with each other.
    These conditions are simply these: viz., first, that each man shall do, towards every other, all that justice requires him to do; as, for example, that he shall pay his debts, that he shall return borrowed or stolen property to its owner, and that he shall make reparation for any injury he may have done to the person or property of another.
    The second condition is, that each man shall abstain from doing so another, anything which justice forbids him to do; as, [*6] for example, that he shall abstain from committing theft, robbery, arson, murder, or any other crime against the person or property of another.
    So long as these conditions are fulfilled, men are at peace, and ought to remain at peace, with each other. But when either of these conditions is violated, men are at war. And they must necessarily remain at war until justice is re-established.
    Through all time, so far as history informs us, wherever mankind have attempted to live in peace with each other, both the natural instincts, and the collective wisdom of the human race, have acknowledged and prescribed, as an indispensable condition, obedience to this one only universal obligation: viz., that each should live honestly towards every other.
    The ancient maxim makes the sum of a man’s legal duty to his fellow men to be simply this: “To live honestly, to hurt no one, to give to every one his due.”
    This entire maxim is really expressed in the single words, to live honestly; since to live honestly is to hurt no one, and give to every one his due.

    Lysander Spooner,

    http://lysanderspooner.org/node/59

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    Maxine:
    August 27th, 2011 at 10:14 pm
    Kevin Moore.

    What garbage! Christopher Columbus knew where he was headed.

    Hmm….seems the historians disagree with you. They say he thought he was headed to India (hence why native Americans are called Indians), not Hispanola. But here we have a genius who states he knew he was headed to Hispanola, therefore he knew he was going to a land that to western Europeans was supposedly undiscovered at the time!

    And you accuse kevin of garbage? LOL

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    Ben:
    August 30th, 2011 at 1:14 pm
    I doubt it will have much impact on the closed minds which dominate this site, but this article is a good description of what has happened in the US with a major political party now explicitly ant-science.

    That would be the democrats and Krugman. But then you know that already, right bennie?

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    P. Dragone

    This is truly shocking! This ALP government should be thoroughly ashamed of itself. That graph (half-way down the page) is a horror story and proves just how intolerable things have become in this country.
    http://tiny.cc/az3rs

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    Tristan

    Well it sure is a great example of misleading graphs.

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    Roy Hogue

    Jo,

    I’m not sure who keeps the record beside you. But this thread, at over 1,500 comments and still counting must be a world record of some kind.

    That you’re willing to tackle a subject as controversial as this convoy and let all comers take their best shot at you without flinching makes you a winner in my book any day.

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    Amen, Roy Hogue @(1)505!

    We just returned from the Convoy, an experience in and of itself, not to mention the amazing people we met and the incredible country we saw as we drove across this great nation. Picked my father up in Sydney and he drove back across with us. We took 9 days to come back from Sydney, so it was a bit more leisurely than the trip to Canberra.

    Was the Convoy worth it? Absolutely! We made an impact, and a significant one. The fact that the MSM and Government did not ignore us indicates that we were on the right track. The more we bark up the correct tree, the more eviscerated we will be. The ‘Government of No Consequence’ will go down in history.

    Meeting up with other hard-working, honest, every-day citizens, most of whom have never protested in their lives, was a treat. We were able to spend time with these good people, enriching ourselves along the way.

    We were able to spend a few hours of “quality” time with our children, who are reason enough for protesting a policy which fundamentally changes our society from a market-based economic base to a centrally-planned one. Do I care about my kids’ futures? Yep. And I know that the so-called Carbon Tax is much more of a threat to them than CO2 ever could be.

    There are many more positives, and I might endeavour to write more on the subject soon. Right now, I’m unpacking and cleaning and washing clothes and enjoying home! (There are worse things I could be doing!)

    Cheers to all…!
    Janet

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    The more things change the more they remain the same.

    http://www.austnewnation.org/

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    I have read that Julia is allegedly a member of the Fabian Society.

    ‘The Fabian Society, Communitarianism and the New World Order’ video: [4.7]

    Fabians
    Cui bono?

    Lucius Cassius Longinus Ravilla, whom the Romans regarded as a very honest and wise judge, was in the habit of asking, time and again, “To whose benefit?”

    Some people have gone to a lot of trouble to set Common Purpose up and keep its real agenda and activities secret. Cui bono?

    The benefits are a mixture of both political and financial and the people who benefit are the leaders and members of the Common Purpose network who want power and money.

    1. The key to understanding Common Purpose is to realise that they are Fabians.

    2. The final objective of the Fabians is to create a One World communitarian (‘Third Way’) government. This ties in with the New World Order project. [4.8]

    3. Common Purpose is the management mechanism being used to carry out the true and hidden agenda of the Fabians.

    “The Fabians have been, throughout their history, political and social chameleons who have, through stealth and deception, changed their outer skin to infiltrate every political, social and educational institution around the world, particularly in Great Britain and the United States. Speaking of chameleons, the primary symbol of the Fabians is a ‘wolf wrapped in a sheep’s skin’.” [4.9]

    So what motivates the Common Purpose leaders?

    1. The Fabian/Communitarian New World Order political agenda. These people despise individuals and people who seek free choice but instead wish to make everybody from the same mould and they despise nations and wish to see the destruction of the nation state – in this case, the UK.

    2. The chance to get their hands on and abuse loads of free ‘government’ or rather, tax-payers’, money.

    And what motivates those who support Common Purpose, go on courses and do what the Common Purpose network tells them to do in their work?

    How about fat salaries and nice pensions? That’ll do to start with.

    “Stop Common Purpose”

    http://www.stopcp.com/cpmindmap.php

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    Roy Hogue

    Janet, Kevin,

    Have you noticed how easy it has become to hit a nerve and get a kneejerk reaction these days? They dare not resort to words because they have no argument. But the little red thumbs down gets a click.

    If I object to what someone says, I say why — with my name attached to it. I don’t mind the thumbs down and I never use it. But it’s an interesting character study. Anonymity reveals a lot about the anonymous.

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    THE FABIAN DREAM

    http://mises.org/books/roadahead.pdf

    “….He admits that communism is anti-God,yet while being anti-God is nearer to God than religions that worship God in spirit and word “but deny him in social progress.”

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    Kevin Moore

    This is the fruit of Fabian Socialism: starvation,death and madness!

    “During the famine, George Bernard Shaw, one of the leading founders of the British Fabian Society in London and the man who designed the society’s coat of arms – “a wolf in sheep’s clothing” – along with a group of British socialists, visited the Soviet Union and were given a five-day tour of the Ukraine visiting a ‘model’ collective farm. He returned to Britain with a favorable impression and declared “there was no famine!” This is the fruit of socialism: starvation, death and madness!

    Today, led by the British aristocracy, members of the Fabian Society and London School of Economics, it is not the Marxist Five Year Plan, military thugs and secret police of Stalin that farmers have to worry about. It is now the British Fabian “fascist” policies of City of London Corporation multi-national corporations and banks (that are now wealthier than many countries) in collusion with the UN, that are monopolizing farming and food distribution on a global scale, that are disenfranchising the small, private “middle-class” farmers out of their livelihood and driving them off their properties…… ”

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/24104893/042-LSE-London-School-of-Economics-Fabian-at-Adelphi-Background

    Fabian Society and London School of Economics [LSE]

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    Kevin Moore

    Orwell Today.com

    “Environmentalism is Animalism is Communism”

    “Four legs good,two legs bad.”

    “Lenin (real name Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov), a disciple of Karl Marx, led the Bolshevik Revolution that seized power in Russia and set up the world’s first Communist tyranny. His glass-encased body is on display in Moscow’s Red Square, to which Communists the world over pay homage. Lenin ruled by terror from 1917 to 1924, setting up a secret police force – the Cheka. People opposed to the Communist government were imprisoned, tortured and murdered. He described his own dictatorship as “power, based directly upon force, and unrestricted by any laws.”

    Another thing Lenin said, in relation to the seizure of land, was: “Under the guise of Greens we shall go forward and hang the kulaks, priests, and landowners. Bounty: 100,000 rubles for each man hanged.”

    Lenin’s policy (ie Communist policy) is recognizable in land policies presently being enacted throughout North America and elsewhere in the diminishing free-world, and as described by George Owell in theme 9.Keeping Masses Down.

    It’s time for people to turn off their telescreens and get down to serious reading about the agenda behind the transfer of public lands into the hands of environmentalists, Indians and private corporations, also known as PPPs – Public Private Partnerships. Specifically, people need to understand that the United Nations (Big Brother) is calling the shots. Learning about Agenda 21, the United Nations plan to control the world’s environment, is a good place to START, along with reading the following links. ~ Jackie Jura”

    http://www.orwelltoday.com/animalism.shtml

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    Kevin Moore

    “Democracy = Socialism, i.e. Communism (The Perestroika Deception)
    February 21, 2009

    By Jon Baker – 1984usa.com

    Without going into background on Trotsky in this article and the overthrow of the Tzar of Russia by the International Bankers – just know this: The Soviet Union was established by the same people who own the Federal Reserve and virtually every other central bank in the World. The Soviet Union was created to be an antithesis to capitalism (thesis). Besides making tons of money over the eventual conflict these two opposing dialectics would have on each other, they are the pro-genitive elements that would eventually lead to the preconceived “New Order” for the world. A synthesis of Capitalism and Communism, the China model if you will.

    If the singular source of funding is not enough of a factor to sway your cognitive reasoning, then you perhaps should look at the fact that the New World Order is set to be a global socialist totalitarian form of government. That organizations like the SI (Socialist Internationale) and the United Nations embody such principles and promote them on a global scale. Never-mind that most of the U.S. delegation who signed the U.N. Charter in San Fransisco on October 24, 1945 were later found to be communist spies or have communist ties (i.e. Alger Hiss, FDR’s personal attorney present at the Yalta Conference. – Never-mind that FDR took over the entire presidential platform of a gentleman and union icon named Norman Thomas who unsuccessfully ran for President on the Socialist Party ticket 6 times.) Never-mind that the U.N. Charter is virtually identical section by section of the old Soviet constitution. Never-mind that the Constitution for the United States of America, Art. 4, Sec. 4 guarantees a republican form of government, not a democracy. Never mind that mainstream media constantly reinforces that we live in a “Democracy” when that is not true.

    Yes, we’re being played as pawns (and fools) in a global chess game, and it’s ugly and nobody wants to face it. Excuses and rationalizations run the gamut; “It’s too hard to understand, ” or “That’s just the way it is,” or the infamous “There’s nothing you can do about it.” These are all cop-outs and evasive maneuvers. Yes, socialism sucks.

    The reason the use of the word “Democracy” is used ad nauseam is because in the Socialist community it is well understood to be a “code-word” for “Socialism” and is therefore more palatable for the “masses.”

    In Mikhail Gorbachev’s book Perestroika: New Thinking for Our Country AND THE WORLD on page 32 he lays it out in the open:

    “We will now firmly stick to the line that only through the consistent development of the democratic forms inherent in socialism and the expansion of self-government can we make progress… It is exactly because we place emphasis on the development of socialist democracy that we pay so much attention to the intellectual sphere, public consciousness and an active social party… In the West, Lenin is often portrayed as an advocate of authoritarian methods of administration. This is a sign of total ignorance of Lenin’s ideas and, not infrequently, of their deliberate distortion. In effect, according to Lenin, socialism and democracy are indivisible.”

    And on page 34, ibid:

    “Perestroika means mass initiative. It is the comprehensive development of democracy, socialist self-government…But in principle I can say that the end result of perestroika is clear to us. It is a thorough renewal of every aspect of Soviet life; it is giving socialism to the most progressive forms of social organization; it is the fullest exposure of the HUMANIST nature of our social system in its crucial aspects – economic, social, political and moral… The essence of perestroika lies in the fact that IT UNITES SOCIALISM WITH DEMOCRACY and revives the Leninist concept of socialist construction both in theory and in practice.”

    (left. Newsweek, Feb. 16, 2009)

    And on page 36, ibid:

    “…we are conducting all our reforms in accordance with the socialist choice. We are looking within socialism, rather than outside of it, for the answers to all the questions that arise. We assess our successes and errors alike by socialist standards. THOSE WHO HOPE THAT WE SHALL MOVE AWAY FROM THE SOCIALIST PATH WILL BE GREATLY DISAPPOINTED. EVERY PART OF OUR PROGRAM OF PERESTROIKA- AND THE PROGRAM AS A WHOLE, FOR THAT MATTER — IS FULLY BASED ON THE PRINCIPLE OF MORE SOCIALISM AND MORE DEMOCRACY…More Socialism means more democracy… We will proceed toward better socialism rather than away from it. We are saying this honestly, without trying to fool our own people or the world. ANY HOPES THAT WE WILL BEGIN TO BUILD A DIFFERENT, NON-SOCIALIST SOCIETY AND GO OVER TO THE OTHER CAMP ARE UNREALISTIC AND FUTILE.”

    V.I. Lenin set the definition of peace to mean the elimination of all forms of opposition to socialism. PEACE=SOCIALISM. This is a form of Orwellian newspeak, but you have to understand their language they use to communicate to each other.

    Also on page 147, ibid, one interesting statement:

    “A third world war, if unleashed by imperialism [Bush Doctrine], would lead to new social upheavals [global economic collapse, terrorism] which would finish off the capitalist system for good, and this would spell global peace [socialism].”

    Now, as to clarify the United States position on this policy, let’s refer to Presidential Documents (AE2.109:25/47) “Administration of George Bush, ” November 22, 1989, page 1822:

    “Off the island nation of Malta [Knights of Malta], Mikhail Gorbachev and I [President George Herbert Walker Bush]will begin the work of years… I will assure him that THERE IS NO GREATER ADVOCATE OF PERESTROIKA THAN THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.”

    As if that weren’t enough, in the Los Angeles Times, April 1993, in an article entitled “The Peace Dividend: Gorbachev Pro-Democracy [a.k.a. socialism]Foundation Opens Office at Bay Area’s Presidio,” subtitled ” THE FORMER HEAD OF THE RUSSIAN KGB TAKES OVER A U.S. MILITARY POST IN S.F.,” it details how the keys to one of the most hallowed military posts was turned over to Gorbachev to set up a pro-socialism office on the oldest continually operating military base in the United States. Gorbachev was the first applicant granted permission to move onto the post. The article went on to say “Gorbachev gave this assessment of the moment to the crowd of dignitaries shivering in the San Francisco fog: ‘This is the symbol of our IRREVERSIBLE TRANSITION from an era of confrontation an militaristic insanity to a NEW WORLD ORDER, one that promises dividends for all.’ At the close of the ceremony, Gorbachev was joined via satellite by singer Billy Joel, who announced a June bebefit concert to raise money to IMMUNIZE children in the United States and Russia.”

    Thanks Billy Joel, the Founding Fathers would be proud. But seriously, if you haven’t gotten a glimpse of the bigger picture, that this is not about Capitalism vs. Communism or East vs. West; this is about INTERNATIONAL STRATEGY by INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS with NO ALLEGIANCE TO ANY NATION. These people don’t have a homeland yet. They are transforming the WORLD to make one. These events are being implemented by agents of International Socialism, which is being pushed through think-tanks, academia, non-governmental organizations, and ALL international organizations. Socialism fools people with idealism that never transpires into individual freedom – it’s always going to make all the promises that it will save the children from cancer, clean the environment, give every worker a fat check, etc., etc. The truth is this is always a mirage. It is smoke and mirrors – and the idealism is what attracts people. You have no individual unalienable rights in socialism – only collective civil rights that can be repealed by the whim of a politicians. Why would anyone fall for that trap? (Stupidity?)

    Gorbachev Foundation North America

    International Socialist Organization

    Socialist Internationale

    Communist Party U.S.A.

    World Socialist Website

    United Nations Organization

    Socialism is the vehicle to integrate the world, but it is not the driving philosophy, for that is the shiny pinnacle of the pyramid known as Mystery Babylon — but that’s an entirely different article. If you’re asking how or why, then you obviously don’t know about that. That’s your answer above all answers.

    So to the Perestroika Deception By Anatoliy Golitsyn…….”

    http://www.henrymakow.com/democracy_socialism_the_perost.html

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    Gee Aye

    Kevin Moore… are there any conspiracies left for you to promote in an off topic manner in future threads?

    Can I ask you this? Do you define a sceptic as someone who does not accept the orthodoxy – no matter what it is – AND who has an alternative view at odds with the orthodoxy?

    To the people who keep giving Kevin the thumbs up; does this mean you uncritically accept the content of the posts (ie I don’t see anyone being sceptical about them) or do you supporting him because you recognise him as a sceptic (and maybe ascribe to the above definition)?

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    Kevin Moore

    Gee Aye @ 515

    What is the opposite of sceptic? Gullible!

    Facts are facts.

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    Kevin Moore

    Tim Flannery: climate prophet
    IPA REVIEW ARTICLE

    | James Paterson

    ‘I wake up in the morning thinking there are lots of times when people have woken up feeling like this, like the Old Testament prophets.’

    That’s Tim Flannery, Julia Gillard’s hand-picked Climate Change Commissioner, or preacher-in-chief, if you prefer.

    Appointed by Climate Change Minister Greg Combet to his $3,000 per week, part-time job in February, Flannery is tasked with turning around the climate change debate for the minority Labor administration.

    His comments, made in a 2004 interview with the Sydney Morning Herald, are just one indicator of the depth of Flannery’s quasi-religious fervour for climate change, not to mention his exaggerated sense of self-importance.

    Many commentators have noted the extensive use of quasi-religious language by climate activists. Followers of the hypothesis that man is responsible for so-called dangerous climate change are referred to as ‘believers’ whilst doubters are often labelled ‘deniers,’ ‘sceptics’ and even ‘heretics.’

    The public shaming and bullying of any scientist who differs from climate science orthodoxy is eerily reminiscent of a latter-day Salem Witch-trial or Spanish Inquisition, with public floggings meted out-metaphorically speaking-for their thought crimes. Indeed, ‘dissenters’, as they have also been labelled, suffer ritual humiliation at the hands of their colleagues and the media, with their every motivation questioned and views pilloried.

    Elements of the climate change movement are beginning to bear more resemblance to a religious cult than a scientific community. Dalliances with authoritarianism are never far from the fringes of the green movement.

    Prominent green activist, Clive Hamilton, for instance, has suggested that the ‘suspension of democratic processes’ might be a necessary ‘emergency’ response to the threat of climate change. Sydney Morning Herald columnist Elizabeth Farrelly recently wrote that ‘Australia’s ludicrous dithering on a pollution tax’ was evidence that voting should be a ‘privilege’ rather than a right and that China should be envied because it need not ‘pander’ to voters.

    Flannery epitomises the trend of science with cult-like characteristics. Modern climate activists appears to increasingly rely as much on faith as science when arriving at their predictions of doom and gloom. And with their reliance on belief at least as much as sober scientific predictions, the climate change movement and its advocates adopt a positively unscientific approach.

    In an interview with The Guardian newspaper in April, Flannery laid out some of the beliefs of this new climate religion, including his conception of ‘Gaia’ in very human terms:

    For the first time, this global super-organism, this global intelligence will be able to send a signal, a strong and clear signal to the earth. And what that means in a sense is that we can, we will be a regulating intelligence for the planet, I’m sure, in the future … And lead to a stronger Gaia, if you will, a stronger earth system.

    It’s not the first time Flannery has made religious statements about ‘Gaia.’

    When appearing on the ABC’s Science Show in January this year, Flannery said: ‘This planet, this Gaia, will have acquired a brain and a nervous system. That will make it act as a living animal, as a living organism, at some sort of level.’

    To be fair, Flannery is not the only scientist to embrace the kooky theory that Gaia has human properties. But it would be fair to say that it is well outside the scientific mainstream. Even fellow Gaia-fans like Roger Gifford, Will Steffen and John Finnigan have distanced themselves from Flannery’s remarks.

    Noting that his comments had caused some ‘confusion’, they wrote for the ABC’s opinion website, The Drum:

    For most scientists working in the relatively new area of Earth System Science, talk of the earth ‘growing a brain’ trivialises the growing body of knowledge about the functioning of the whole-earth system … While the Gaia hypothesis, first popularised by British scientist James Lovelock as a metaphor of ‘the living Earth’, has been given religious overtones by some, most scientists, including Lovelock himself, do not assert that the Earth is ‘alive.’

    Gaia worship is not the only area of Flannery’s work where religious elements have surfaced. Like others in the environmental movement, he exhibits a level of intolerance of dissent that religious organisations have previously been accused of.

    Like Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand of Aragon, Tim Flannery is not averse to using the power of the state to enforce his views. He has openly fantasised about judicial punishments being handed out in the future to those who doubt climate science today. ‘Perhaps the day will come when a prosecutor in some yet-to-be-formed international court will appear with a copy of Scorcher under his arm,’ he has said, referring to Clive Hamilton’s book attacking the ‘greenhouse mafia’ of citizens and businesses who are sceptical about man’s contribution to climate change.

    His record of inflammatory alarmism about climate change and his patchy-at-best attempts to forecast environmental doom also belie a fundamentalist viewpoint. It seems as if Flannery seeks out the worst and most extreme predictions of climate catastrophe from scientific models, and communicates it to the masses as if it is a certain outcome.

    In an October 2006 opinion piece for The Age newspaper, entitled ‘Climate’s last chance’, Flannery asked readers to imagine what a 25 metre sea rise would look like. ‘Picture an eight-storey building by a beach, then imagine waves lapping its roof,’ he said. Given the Australian Bureau of Meteorology estimates that, at worst, Australia’s sea-level has risen by 10mm per year for the last two decades (and as little as 1.5mm per year in some areas), it will take thousands of years to reach Flannery’s alarmist prophecy, if current trends persist.

    Speaking at the National Climate Change Forum shortly after his appointment as Climate Commissioner, Professor Flannery warned Australian families their summer trips to the beach would be a thing of the past. ‘It’s hardly surprising that beaches are going to disappear with climate change,’ he said.

    Flannery has predicted that many of Australia’s capital cities would all run out of water at different times. In 2004 he predicted that ‘Perth will be the 21st century’s first ghost metropolis.’ The following year, he said that Sydney could run out of water in as little as two years.

    Undaunted by that botched prediction, he tried again in 2007, saying Adelaide, Sydney and Brisbane would ‘need desalinated water urgently, possibly in as little as 18 months.’

    Undeterred by their failure to dry-out, Flannery was at it again in 2008, arguing that ‘the water problem for Adelaide is so severe that it may run out of water by early 2009.’ Of course, even amid a severe drought, none of these cities have met Flannery’s doomsday scenarios.

    And the forecast from his 2007 article in the New Scientist magazine that ‘Australia is likely to lose its northern rainfall’ looks awfully silly against recent flooding rains in Queensland.

    These failed prophecies have all the hallmarks of a religious cult-leader or wacko preacher predicting Armageddon-if we don’t atone for our environmental ‘sins’ against the planet. The idea that we have sinned against Gaia-by its very nature a religious or moral question rather than a scientific or economic one-has never been far from Flannery’s comments.

    In 2007, for example, he mused that ‘some may say that Australia deserves its fate’ because of our then failure to ratify the Kyoto treaty and as a high per-capita emitter of carbon dioxide.

    Although Flannery has avoided directly attributing the recent floods in Australia to climate change, he has said that extreme weather events like the floods are more likely to occur as a result of climate change.

    Using current weather events to bolster a case for human-induced climate change is fundamentally unscientific. Aside from confusing weather and climate-something sceptics are often accused of-it is also an un-falsifiable hypothesis, a key requirement of any scientific theory. If lots of rain, no rain at all, cold temperatures and hot temperatures are all evidence of climate change, what could we observe that would disprove Flannery’s theory?

    That Flannery is a strange man probably won’t come as a surprise to his critics, climate science sceptics and those who are simply sceptical about the politics and economics of pricing carbon dioxide.

    It may, however, have come as a surprise to the Gillard Government, who have entrusted him with selling their message that climate change is happening, humans are to blame, and that doing something drastic about it is in Australia’s national interest.

    But they should have known better, given his extensive record of odd or extreme public commentary.

    Many in the media love Flannery for his ability to churn out a ready-to-print quotable quote. Too often, however, he is treated by the media as if he is an impartial climate expert, rather than a highly political or quasi-religious activist.

    Yet his public comments betray his image as a disinterested scientific observer, and point to his true identity as an environmental activist with strong political views and religious-like certainty that has little to do with science.

    Take, for instance, his belief that it is ‘is absolutely imperative as we move forward that we get some more equal distribution of resources’, which he shared in his recent Guardian interview. A long-held political goal of many on the left, perhaps, but hardly a scientific response to climate change.

    Yet despite his own thinly-disguised ideological bias, Flannery has not been averse to smearing other scientists for their supposed political beliefs. Speaking of the highly regarded Richard Lindzen, a Professor of Meteorology in Department of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, he said; ‘the problem with Richard Lindzen is his politics is to the right of Andrew Bolt and Genghis Khan.’

    And like a cult leader who sees conspiracies to thwart him around every corner, Flannery has a paranoid streak. Even fellow climate-preacher Clive Hamilton has mocked Flannery’s belief that he has been a victim of a conspiracy of powerful interests trying to damage him:

    when challenged about his back-flips Flannery claims that he has been ‘misrepresented’, even referring to a ‘conspiracy’ of powerful people trying to tear him down. There’s no conspiracy, Tim, just a deep skepticism about opportunism when it comes to something as important as global warming.

    Flannery’s proposed solutions to climate change have veered on the radical, even excluding his enthusiasm for both a carbon tax and an emissions trading scheme.
    Interviewed in 2007, he likened the coal industry-which employs thousands of Australians and provides the vast majority of our cheap power generation-to those that had sold asbestos. He also argued their ‘social license to operate’ should be withdrawn. A year before, he wrote that ‘the old coal clunkers need to be closed as quickly as possible’ and proposed that they be replaced with hitherto unproven technologies like geothermal and wave energy.

    There’s no doubt that Tim Flannery is an effective media performer and a ceaseless advocate for his cause. He’s also high profile thanks in part to his 2007 Australian of the Year award and the books he has written about climate change.

    But Flannery bears much closer resemblance to a religious evangelist than a scientist. His doomsday prophecies, radical solutions and religion-like certainty are all indicators of his status as a modern-day climate prophet, rather than expert scientific advisor.

    It seems the Gillard Government has failed to do their research into his absurd, inaccurate and often extreme public statements before appointing him to his well-remunerated public post. Or perhaps they’re just hoping we won’t notice.

    http://ipa.org.au/publicaions/1888/tim-flannery-climate-prophet

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    BobC

    Kevin Moore @ 468 & various:

    Wonderful! Hilarious! I have saved them in my file of pithy sayings. Of course, one was by the master of the bon mot, Winston Churchill.

    Not surprising that Ben and Maxine are unable to see the point.

    Maxine calls them “cliches”, although I would bet she had never heard them before — they aren’t common coin in the crowd she obviously runs with. One of the minor definitions of “cliche” is a saying that is so obviously true that it has been overused, so Maxine might have a (minor) point.

    (I’m reminded of a student’s first exposure to Shakesphere — when the teacher asked him what he thought, he said, “The guy’s a good writer, all right — but he uses too many cliches”.)

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    BobC

    Kevin Moore: You might be interested in (or have already heard) Churchill’s description of the main economic systems:

    “Capitalism is the uneven distribution of wealth; Socialism is the even distribution of poverty; Communism is Socialism with a gun in your back.”

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    Kevin Moore

    BobC

    Maybe Churchill had a gun in his back. He lost his soul when he sided with Communism.

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    Gee Aye

    Gee Aye @ 515
    What is the opposite of sceptic? Gullible!
    Facts are facts.

    I didn’t expect you to be this self aware; you know that you are gullibly and unsceptically believing all these things you post about.

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    Kevin Moore

    Gee Aye @ 521

    Gee Aye.

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    BobC

    Kevin Moore:
    September 10th, 2011 at 7:33 am
    BobC

    Maybe Churchill had a gun in his back. He lost his soul when he sided with Communism.

    When in the world did Churchill side with Communism? Any cooperation with Stalin was either necessary for the fight with Hitler, or at the urging of FDR, whom Churchill couldn’t just ignore. It was Churchill, after all, who coined the term “Iron Curtain”.

    Gee Aye: Congratulations! You’ve managed to lower your level of discussion to that of grade school children. Perhaps this is a personal best?

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    Gee Aye

    BobC well done for disagreeing with both myself and Kevin Moore, although I agree with you.

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    brc

    This is a reply to Maxine @ various, all over the place with the ridiculous assertion that the GOvernment doesn’t have a bank account, and that any surplus funds dissappear.

    I did take your advice, Maxine, and wrote to the Treasury for clarification. Sure, it took them a month to get back to me, what with running the country and all, but they just replied. And SHOCK! HORROR! the Australian government DOES have a bank account where they deposit their funds. Well knock me over with a feather!

    I post the reply for others entertainment, in case some other deluded poster in the future thinks that the government has no bank account:

    Dear [snip]

    Thank you for your email concerning Government finances.

    The response to your question is presented below in two parts:
    1) Australian Government banking arrangements, and
    2) Government debt market and return to surplus.

    1) The Australian Office of Financial Management (AOFM) is charged with the responsibility of managing the Australian Government’s debt and cash balances. The Australian Government’s core bank accounts are held at the Reserve Bank of Australia, as well as those of governmental agencies and that of the Australian Taxation Office (ATO). Each night, all Commonwealth accounts are transferred into the central overnight account (the Official Public Account or OPA).
    Each day, taxation revenue is deposited into the account held at the RBA which is then moved into the OPA. When there is a surplus of funds in excess of those necessary to meet the needs of governmental agencies they are invested in either:
    (i) Term deposits with the RBA;
    (ii) Bank accepted bills and negotiable certificates of deposit issued by highly-rated Authorised Deposit-taking Institutions; or
    (iii) Short-dated bonds issued by Australian state and territory governments.

    A stylistic representation of the banking arrangements of the Government is attached for your reference.

    2) The Government borrows by issuing debt – also known as Commonwealth Government Securities (CGS). The experiences of the global financial crisis demonstrated the importance of a liquid and efficient CGS market in managing risk and retaining confidence in Australian financial markets. In addition, a liquid and efficient CGS market provides the Government with the flexibility to meet its short-term financing requirements following the impacts of the recent natural disasters and lower than expected tax receipts.

    In the 2011-12 Budget, the Government outlined its commitment to maintaining a liquid and efficient CGS market, and confirmed its intention to ensure that the market remains of an appropriate size to meet this commitment after the budget has returned to surplus (2012-13), while continuing to reduce the level of net debt.

    This policy will see the Government once again begin to accumulate financial assets, which will initially be held as highly liquid assets to provide flexibility in managing the Government’s financing requirements in the short term. The Government will consider the use of accumulated financial assets in conjunction with future consideration of the size of the CGS market.

    A further discussion of the future of the CGS market can be found in Budget Paper 1, page 7-16, of the 2011-12 Budget and can be accessed at:

    http://cache.treasury.gov.au/budget/2011-12/content/download/bp1_bst7.pdf

    The attached document shows the flow of money between the economy, the ATO and other revenue collection departments, the official government bank account, and the AOFM.

    So the government does have a bank account after all! They deposit surplus funds in there! Well, what do you know, I was right all along, and you were screamingly, laughably, demonstrably proven incorrect.

    I’ll accept my apology with some humble pie, thanks very much.

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    Kevin Moore

    brc,

    The logical extension to that knowledge is that the Commonwealth of Australia is a Corporation.

    What follows is the complete explanation of the contempt by all Political Parties of the;

    Australian Constitution Chapter One, Part IV. — Both Houses of the Parliament.

    Section 44 and Section 46;

    Item (9).

    44. Any person who–

    (i. ) Is under any acknowledgment of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power,

    or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a

    foreign power:

    (v. ) Has any direct or indirect pecuniary interest in any agreement with the Public Service

    of the Commonwealth otherwise than as a member and in common with the other members

    of an incorporated company consisting of more than twenty-five persons:

    shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting,

    as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.

    46. Until the Parliament otherwise provides, any person declared by this Constitution to be

    incapable of sitting as a senator or as a member of the House of Representatives shall, for every day

    on which he so sits, be liable to pay the sum of one hundred pounds to any person who sues for it in

    any court of competent jurisdiction.

    .

    All political Parties and the United Nations are Non Government Organisations and as such would be

    the opposite to Section 44. (i. ) are under acknowledgment of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to

    a foreign power by sending armed forces to Afghanistan and Iraq and;

    What right has the Prime Minister to replace the Governor-General as the command in chief of the

    naval and military forces of the Commonwealth that is vested in the Governor-General as the

    Queen’s representative. Chapter 2. Section 68?

    Section 44. (v. ) in common with the other members of an incorporated company consisting of more

    than twenty-five persons;

    The Parliament of Australia has more than 150 persons.

    COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA registered in the

    UNITED STATES SECURITIES EXCHANGE COMMISSION as CIK (0000805157).

    COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA

    CIK (0000805157)

    SIC: 8880 – American Depositary Receipts

    State location: DC | Fiscal Year End: 0630

    Business Address

    1601 MASSACHUSETTS AVE NW

    C/O AUSTRALIAN EMBASSY

    WASHINGTON DC 20036

    Constitutional Commonwealth of Australia

    There is much trickery in the word usage itself.

    A “Sovereign Nation” for instance really means a “nation-state” or “a corporate entity with sovereign powers” such as the two entities COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA [SEC filing in Washington DC in 1934 already].

    From what I can gather it appears that the original system of the Constitutional Commonwealth of Australia [lasted only for a relatively short time period between 1900-1919, perhaps in original form] is still in existence to this very day, but laying largely dormant due to the now non-existence of Constitutionally-approved money of substance as per the terms and conditions of original Constitution which in any case, was nothing more than a debt-repayment contract for debts of the country accrued between 1850-1900].

    Then came the COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA CORPORATION at least as early as 1929 if not before, which has a SEC filing in Washington D.C. filed as early as 1934, a few years after the 1929 bankruptcy.

    With it’s PARLIAMENT OF THE COMMONWEALTH all of these, other than the original Constitutional Commonwealth of Australia, are what you call SOVEREIGN NATIONS which really means “Corporate or Nation-States with Sovereign Power i.e. operating in their own right as properly established corporations with the power to make rules for their corporation and those who are members of their corporations i.e. AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS.

    It appears that Queen Elizabeth the Second [the true original Monarch] cannot not assent to legislation for the corporations known as COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA but her original Constitutional system is still in existence albeit laying dorment due to the fact that we are not operating according to the law in our financial affairs [i.e. we are NOT using Constitutional money of substance, the most critically important but least known or mentioned "condition" of the original Constitution].

    Put in another way, the Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, under the Constitution is now a foreign entity to the corporations/nation-state/SOVEREIGN NATIONS known as COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA which belong to and essentially established by the IMF/UNITED NATIONS.

    Therefore in our current PARLIAMENT OF THE COMMONWEALTH one cannot swear allegiance to a foreign entity – that is, the Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, under the Constitution hereby established that is now an entity foreign to that corporation known as COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA, with a fictional “QUEEN OF AUSTRALIA” which is just a fictional title [no flesh and blood entity behind it].

    So in reality the Constitutional protections and true protection of the law lay in one claiming to be a member of the original Constitutional Commonwealth of Australia whereby Queen Elizabeth the Second [the living flesh and blood monarch] still reigns albeit not currently operating or controlling the current “public offices” in any fiscal sense of the word, however, the original Constitutional protections and guaranteed rights under the original Constitutional Commonwealth of Australia are still in operation and still exist for they can only be removed by a referendum of, for and by the people.

    “AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS” are “corporate fictional persons” with no Constitutional rights as guaranteed in the original Constitutional Commonwealth of Australia and only have benefits and privileges and a corporate charter known as the AUSTRALIA ACT 1986 – the real living flesh and blood people, of which you could count on one hand, still have the full protection and rights as guaranteed in the original Constitutional Commonwealth of Australia which still exists but is laying dormant in any operational sense.

    To sum it up, Queen Elizabeth the Second, the true flesh and blood living Monarch, is still the executive power of the Commonwealth that is vested in the Queen of the original Constitutional Commonwealth of Australia, a venue and jurisdiction which although is still in existence for those who wish to protect and claim their lawful rights, is dormant in any controlling or financially operational sense when it comes to public offices. Such rights can only be invoked “administratively” [private venue and jurisdiction]. AS soon as there is any controversy in any court cases today for instance, the COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA is granted jurisdiction automatically to hear and adjudicate with absolute discretion in relation to such “controversy”.

    Over the top of the original Constitutional Commonwealth of Australia, came two successive CORPORATIONS known as NATION-STATES or SOVEREIGN NATIONS [a Nation is NOT a country so to speak] which belong to the UN and IMF and were lawfully imposed over the top of the Original Constitutional Commonwealth of Australia due to the bankruptcy/receivership of the Original Constitutional Commonwealth of Australia in 1929 with rearrangements and reconstructions of the debt repayment terms and conditions resulting in the AUSTRALIA ACT 1986 which is a CORPORATE CHARTER for the SOVEREIGN NATION [Corporate Nation-State] of AUSTRALIA.

    In consideration of the fact that virtually ALL of the Constitutional entities in ALL of the western/Christian countries were bankrupted or went into receivership at the same time in 1929, it is also therefore possible that the STATUTE OF WESTMINSTER itself is nothing more than a corporate mirror-image, rather than an actual IMPERIAL act of British Parliament.

    The term “AUSTRALIA” when used by the courts does not refer to the land mass country known as Australia but to the CORPORATION the COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA established around 1929 unless specifically or impliedly stated otherwise. The AUSTRALIA ACT 1986 is the CORPORATE CHARTER for the corporation known as AUSTRALIA and AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS are PERSONS of which the Creator has no respect for, who only have benefits and privileges and no Constitutional rights – this unfortunately is the absolute majority of the population.

    So there appears to have taken place the following since 1900:

    1. The Original Constitutional Commonwealth of Australia with Queen Elizabeth the Second, living flesh and blood reigning Monarch.

    2. The Corporation known as COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA with a SEC filing in Washington DC filed in 1934. [A SOVEREIGN NATION WHICH DOES NOT MEAN A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY - it means a corporation or nation state with Sovereign power - eg, established by the creditor to whom the debts of the original Commonwealth of Australia were owed to - the IMF/UN/CROWN/International banksters ].

    3. The Corporation known as AUSTRALIA established and incorporated in 1973 as a result of a secondary level of debt reconstruction and reorganization bringing with it subsidiary corporations such as PARLIAMENT OF AUSTRALIA and QUEEN OF AUSTRALIA and finally THE AUSTRALIA ACT 1986 [ the main Corporate charter].

    Underlying the above numbers 2 and 3 is still in existence the original Constitutional Commonwealth of Australia and it’s Constitution, with the original living flesh and blood Queen Elizabeth the Second as reigning Monarch to this very day which still protects those who choose not to be AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS, [members of the CORPORATION/SOVEREIGN NATION-STATE] those who recognize there is no money of substance in circulation anymore, and those who wish to access their exemption/prepaid account to discharge/setoff their debts in recognition of the fact that the funny money in circulation today cannot lawfully do so.

    The actual protections of the law lie in the recognition of either and/or both:

    1. That the living flesh and blood Queen Elizabeth the second is still our reigning Monarch for those who are NOT AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS with full Constitutional guarantees for those who wish to stand upon and claim such

    2. The you are not an AUSTRALIAN CITIZEN PERSON fictional legal entity with only benefits and privileges who must obey the corporate charter [AUSTRALIA ACT 1986] of the corporation known as AUSTRALIA.

    Put another way the situation in Australia the land mass is as follows:

    Private Venue and jurisdiction: The original Constitutional Commonwealth of Australia is still in full force and effect with Queen Elizabeth the Second still reigning over it, guaranteeing all rights to those who do not wish to be AUSTRALIAN CITIZEN PERSONS and make a claim upon/use their exemption/prepaid account status. There is however no Constitutional money of substance to run the public offices in such a manner as originally intended but the protections of the law contained within the original Constitution nevertheless still exist.

    Public Venue and Jurisdiction: The IMF established and incorporated a corporation known as COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA [with a SEC Filing in Washington DC in 1934] at the bankruptcy/receivership of the original Constitutional Commonwealth of Australia. AUSTRALIA was established and incorporated in 1973 as a secondary level consequence and reorganization of the 1929 bankruptcy whereby, AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS being PERSONS who are members of the CORPORATION OF AUSTRALIA with their CORPORATE CHARTER being the AUSTRALIA ACT 1986 who have only benefits and privileges granted to them by the PARLIAMENT OF AUSTRALIA of which the living flesh and blood Queen Elizabeth the Second is now a foreign entity offering no Constitutional protections to such PERSONS.

    The trickery has been in the use of words which resembled closely our original institutions, which such original institutions were replaced with corporations created, established and incorporated by the International Monetary Fund and it’s many subsidiaries such as the CROWN, the UN, with the Vatican City ultimately controlling all of the above.

    My Question of ACN; Is this the reason for the introduction of GST taxation system?

    The banking ombudsman is really a series of interloping inter meddling interfering impostors (agents) corporations;

    ACN 050 070 034 REGD * THE AUSTRALIAN BANKING INDUSTRY OMBUDSMAN LTD

    ACN 050 070 034 REGD BANKING AND FINANCIAL SERVICES OMBUDSMAN LIMITED

    ACN 114 322 468 REGD FINANCIAL OMBUDSMAN SERVICE PTY LTD

    ACN 006 354 089 REGD BANKING AND FINANCIAL SERVICES LAW ASSOCIATION LTD.

    ACN 104 961 882 REGD * MORTGAGE INDUSTRY OMBUDSMAN SERVICE LIMITED

    ACN 104 961 882 REGD CREDIT OMBUDSMAN SERVICE LIMITED

    ACN 117 680 172 REGD INDEPENDENT OMBUDSMAN SERVICE PTY LTD

    NSW D0810222 RMVD MR OMBUDSMAN

    059240130 NRGD OFFICE OF OMBUDSMAN

    and are another useless piece of bureaucratic deception in supposedly helping REAL flesh & blood

    human beings. They are their to deal with FICTIONS (corporations – your strawman) such as

    JOHN SMITH but not John Smith who is the real flesh & blood human being.

    The internationalised banksters (globalised corporation) controls the commonwealth (corporate)

    government of Australia and this corporation controls all federal, state & local government depts. &

    public servants (all corporations) and the law (another series of corporations).

    In a case like ours the real human being ombudsman (a legal FICTION) contracted to the corporation

    within a myriad series of corporations is completely out of his/her REAL depth and if he/she tried

    anything REAL outside their corporate jurisdiction (FICTION), you can kiss good bye to their career

    and long term security etc.

    Corporations are the internationalised shadow government who have usurped all sovereign

    constitutional enactment’s & systems through their statutes.

    Magna Carta, The Bill Of Rights etc. are abolished.

    We no longer have legal rights and the judges know & enforce this!

    We are now governed by CORPORATION STATUTES. Did we have a referendum to allow this?

    or were we all tricked and deceived? This is why trial by jury is almost completely wiped out.

    Common Law is literally kaput.

    Something I noticed today for the very first time was near the very bottom of the Daily court lists

    for the Supreme Court of NSW. I have cut & pasted this here (see color blue)

    D U T Y R O S T E R

    COMMON LAW DUTY JUDGE JUSTICE HISLOP COURT 9D

    COMMON LAW LIST JUDGE JUSTICE HALL COURT 11C

    COMMON LAW DUTY ASSOCIATE JUDGE ASSOCIATE JUSTICE MALPASS COURT 10B

    EQUITY DUTY JUDGE JUSTICE CAMPBELL COURT 8B

    (Includes urgent Admiralty List applications)

    COMMERCIAL LIST DUTY JUDGE JUSTICE BERGIN COURT 10C

    (all Commercial List and Technology & Construction List urgent matters)

    CORPORATION JUDGE JUSTICE WHITE COURT 12B

    EQUITY DUTY ASSOCIATE JUDGE ASSOCIATE JUSTICE MACREADY COURT 7B

    Practitioners wishing to contact a Duty Judge after hours should contact the

    Law Courts Security Desk on 9230 8025.

    ******

    You see, the arrogance of these illumined persons is now revealing out in the open what has been

    suspected and or known by many freedom committers from around the world for many years now,

    that all our courts are now under Admiralty (Maritime) Law,

    (corporation law governed by corporation statutes).

    Did you know that the English Alphabet appears to have been created by Illumined French Legals

    and is sort of copyrighted & patented. Each letter means something that only the initiated Illumined

    ones know and when you bring the individual letters together to form words they have various other

    meanings as well.

    Where we (unillumined) are trained (conditioned-brainwashed) to know the meanings of various

    words in the English language (they all have double or triple or quadruple meanings etc), we are not

    trained to know the REAL meanings of each letter of the English alphabet and how each letter

    forms (singular or combined) a REAL (another) meaning/s of each word.

    This is how these EVIL persons have been controlling humanity like cattle for centuries.

    The REAL power of the ENGLISH LANGUAGE is in how it is REALLY being used against us

    to control us. How we think & what we say in English etc is what IMPRISONS us as slaves and

    this is how we give our power away to the ILLUMINED ones who see themselves as our masters.

    The bastardised ENGLISH language was created to ENSLAVE us. Everywhere where the English

    language has blossomed on Earth, you see psychic ENSLAVEMENT by those who read, write &

    talk English and its all done with mental (psychic) cells/prisons.

    Yes….Double-Triple-Quadruple Speak does exist and I intend on passing on the knowledge I am

    currently gathering so anyone can INTERPRET the REAL language being spoken by our various

    ILLUMINED politicians, media reps etc etc and how to UNTANGLE ourselves from the psychic

    webs we create for ourselves, that entrap us. More on all this down the line.

    *************

    http://www.truthwinds.com//siterun_data/government/fraud/uk_australia_canada_government/news.php?q=1208891171

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    P. Dragone

    You lot do know that you can now get ten sessions with a psychologist, with a doctor’s referral, subsidised by Medicare?

    I don’t think ten is anywhere near enough to treat your paranoia and delusions, but it is a start.

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    Cate S

    Oi, what has been going on in here? Just got notified that this thread is still going – sheesh – well the convoy momentum is still rolling along, the petitions were handed over last week, so that completes that undertaking giving people hope and being able to express themselves.
    Interesting though, there is still so much now happening! Looks like Convoys have started something good and people are confident enough to stand up and have their say, irrespective of political persuasions, my favourite of course, people are now asking questions of their party of preference! One can only hope that this leads to better scrutiny of all MP’s who are are policy makers.
    Now, lets get out of this stupid carbon tax – egads – what a debacle. Oh, any takers on who is going to replace Julia – I reckon Malcolm Turnbull is in with a chance! HA! :)
    Hey anyone heading to the rally at Victor Harbor SA on the 30th October? More gatherings people speaking out this time about water, private property rights, unsustainable and unnecessary taxes – the lists are never ending really… ;)

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    Hi Cate,

    Not interested in who will take over from Gillard. Nothing will satisfy me but taking down the government. Funny how a well placed rumour got so much traction…lol!

    SA is too far for my diminishing funds but have been considering another run to Canberra for a one man protest on the lawn on the day the Upper House passes the tax.

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    Cate S

    G’day ! Wondered where i would run into you again! Bugger a bit too far from you to make it – shall “soldier on” lol
    Yeah, re “well placed” I think it is a classic – and i love it! Obviously my comment is tic – yeah yeah, sense of humour!
    I heard that there could be something BIG happening at the big house on the 17th – you know anything about it?
    PS How come you are not back on you know where, thought i had sorted that one out – well, tired too and things looked ok…buggered if i know :(

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    No, I haven’t heard of anything about that date…yet. Concentrating on other issues but will ring around.

    Same as it ever was concerning that other place. Same status so wouldn’t have a clue about what is happening over there.

    Keep well.

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    [...] history’s wall. For it was the day we proved that Australia has lost its soul. On that day, the Convoy of No Confidence came to Canberra. From every corner of this vast is-land. 11 groups. 300 strong. These the very [...]

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