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Overflow thread – Convoy of No Confidence

It’s time to flow over…

These were the second 500 comments on the Convoy Thread.

Click here to see the original post on The Convoy of No Confidence.

 

The original numbers of these comments was numbers 500 – 1000.

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499 comments to Overflow thread – Convoy of No Confidence

  • #
    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 497

    By reverting to such Nazi sloganeering you are debasing debate and demonstrating to everyone that you don’t have confidence in the quality of your own arguments.

    Well – off you go then Adam – introduce some “science” for us to debate and I’ll try my feeble old best to summon up some confidence in the quality of my arguments.

    Just this once – just for you.

    PS – “weightless” CO2 is not “science” – just more dribble from a politician.

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  • #
    memoryvault

    MaryFJohnston @ 501

    Yeah – Ive been following your little tete-a-tete on the other thread. I’m inclined to agree with Kevin Moore’s summation.

    He’s a sort of a cross between MattB and Jerome Ravetz, but without Matt’s wit and charm, or Ravetz’ superior empirical scientific knowledge.

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  • #

    MaryFJohnston at 501:

    This is not verified and as I’ve posted previously the “ERRORS” alone in quantifying natural CO2 output completely overshadow man made CO2.

    Mary, if you are really interested in science, again: the errors in quantifying natural CO2 output are completely unimportant for the change in amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere. The only important item is the difference in total outputs and inputs, that is what gives an increase or decrease of CO2 in the atmosphere. And that is measured, quite exactly, as that is the difference between human emissions and what is measured as increase in the atmosphere: a net loss of CO2 into natural sinks over the past 50 years.

    You don’t need to know any detailed expenses and earnings of what happens in your bussiness over the day, simply count what is in your cash register at the beginning of the day and at the end of the day. The difference is what you have earned (or lost) that day.

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  • #
    Adam Smith

    PS – “weightless” CO2 is not “science” – just more dribble from a politician.

    Yes I agree that Tony Abbott’s assertion that CO2 is weightless is wrong. It reflects very poorly on Abbott as a person let alone potential Prime Minister.

    It also demonstrates why we are lucky that Gillard, rather than Abbott, is the current Prime Minister.

    00

  • #
    MaryFJohnston

    One last chance Ferdinand,

    You use this analogy.

    “The difference is what you have earned (or lost) that day”

    Now the challenge>

    Does this tally allow you to know the daily takings and the daily expenses.

    The answer is NO and it is a very important point.

    What you are doing is assuming a value for Income to get an accurate value of expenses.

    I think you understand English well enough to know you are at a dead end.

    Good night and Good Luck.

    00

  • #
    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 505

    It also demonstrates why we are lucky that Gillard, rather than Abbott, is the current Prime Minister.

    THIS is your reply to an offer of a “scientific debate”?

    Adam, you are like a scratched record.

    00

  • #
    Adam Smith

    THIS is your reply to an offer of a “scientific debate”?

    Wow that’s interesting, so people here tell people to “shut the F^%$# up”, when they disagree with them, but further to that, they also think they should be allowed to determine how people respond to posts.

    This is very interesting. It doesn’t seem this forum encourages an open exchange of ideas at all.

    00

  • #
    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 508

    This is very interesting. It doesn’t seem this forum encourages an open exchange of ideas at all.

    I have just offered you an “open floor” to introduce ANY “scientific debate” you want, and all you’ve done so far is:

    #505 – revert back to Abbott-bashing (again), and

    #508 – complained bitterly – while holding the floor – that nobody wants to debate with you.

    Come on Adam, there must be some aspect of “science” you feel confident enough to debate with a feeble old guy like me who “doesn’t have confidence in the quality of my arguments”.

    00

  • #
    MattB

    Mary – we know the human emissions… we know the atmospheric content, therefore we know the natural flow in/out of atmosphere. If one year the variability of natural emissions means they are very high then it will show up in the atmospheric concentrations.

    Seriously you need to have a good look at your treatment of Ferdy… you are coming across as a howling banshee, and an ignorant AND rude one at that.

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  • #
    MattB

    Actually I should have used ‘cultist’ as the nom de jour instead of banshee.

    00

  • #
    Bush bunny

    Adam – you started it and joined this blog on your own accord
    that was concerned with the public outrage and the convoy of no confidence. Yet not once have you said ‘It is unAustralian or illegal, or a load of dissidents conducting this. It is the biggest sign of public discontent I have witnessed since the Whitlam years. Just like what Ghandi demonstrated with his walk to the sea to complain and protest on the British Raj’s salt tax, that he won.

    What is the 1688 act of what? You must be American eh? Because if you were Australian you would know that Australia was not colonized and it was then a penal colony under the political control of Great Britain, until 1788. The Federation of States was no formed until 1901.

    What is the sense of your argument is politically aggressive and full of false facts and irrational diatribe.

    I remember one man who was accused of wife abuse, complaining to the police his wife threatened to hit with
    a cast iron fry pan. He forgot to say he had hit her first. People forget the cause and effect syndrome don’t they folks?

    00

  • #
    memoryvault

    Bush Bunny @ 512

    It was not Adam but me who introduced the 1688 Bill of Rights into this debate.

    I suggest you go you read my posts at 190 and 191 for the relevance.

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  • #
    Adam Smith

    If one year the variability of natural emissions means they are very high then it will show up in the atmospheric concentrations.

    Yes, there’s a good website that updates this data once a month here:
    http://www.csiro.au/greenhouse-gases/

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  • #
    Adam Smith

    Yet not once have you said ‘It is unAustralian or illegal, or a load of dissidents conducting this. It is the biggest sign of public discontent I have witnessed since the Whitlam years.

    Well see I wouldn’t ever use the term “un-Australian” to describe peaceful protestors. Saying that someone is “un-Australian” simply for exercising their democratic right to peaceful protest is the sort of sloganeering the debases debate.

    The biggest sign of public discontent since the Whitlam years? I doubt it.

    What about the approx 500,000 odd people around Australia who protested against the 2003 Iraq war on Feb 15th, 2003 (and who were told by the Prime Minister at the time that they were helping Saddam Hussein!)

    00

  • #

    MaryFJohnston at 506:

    Now the challenge
    Does this tally allow you to know the daily takings and the daily expenses.
    The answer is NO and it is a very important point.

    That is exactly the difference between our opinions:
    The answer is NO but that is not important at all.
    The endresult is exactly known: you will know if you have a gain or loss at the end of the day, not how much was earned or expended in any specific transaction or as sum of all the earnings or sum of all expenses.
    But in my opinion, that is not important if you are only interested in the fact that your bussiness is doing well. If you ad 100 dollars of your personal money every morning to the cash register and every evening you find a gain of 50 dollar, you don’t need to know the details of any transaction during any day, neither the total turnover of any day, to know that your bussiness is loosing money…

    The CO2 measurements show only the total gain or loss over a year. That is all. You don’t need to know the details of any CO2 flow or the sum of all inflows or the sum of all outflows to know that nature was a net sink for CO2 over the past 50 years, because humans have added more CO2 than was measured as increase in the atmosphere…

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  • #
    P Dragone

    Thumbs up for Prime Minister Julia Gillards ALP government and The Hon Nicola Roxon MP, Minister for Health and Ageing for their great win with the historic health deal that will deliver greatly increased health benefits for all Australians. This is particularly beneficial for our ageing population and for families with older members for whom they are caring.

    Of course, people on this convoy who may need healthcare during the trip can avail themselves of Labor’s health system.

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  • #

    P Dragone…. for us Taswegians… we were promised great things BUT not immediately as our Dear (not) Premier is in the middle of MASSIVE spending cuts, including the possibility of school closures, police numbers being cut and hospitals told to trim off all fat……. it may take ten or more years to filter thru down here. Many of us seniors will be dead by then.

    I do hope this convoy is huge and disabling and peaceful and recorded by the media and ACTED UPON by the government

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  • #
    Adam Smith

    I do hope this convoy is huge and disabling and peaceful and recorded by the media and ACTED UPON by the government

    What do you mean by “disabling”? It won’t interrupt government business if that is what you mean. The Government will still present the ETS bills to parliament when it next sits, and they will pass both houses probably by late September or early October.

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  • #
    P Dragone

    Justmeint,
    I am not aware of the exact circumstances of Tasmania but I suggest you email the Minister’s office with yuur question, or the Prime Minister. I have found them to be very responsive.
    http://www.health.gov.au/internet/ministers/publishing.nsf/Content/ContactNicolaRoxon-1
    http://www.pm.gov.au/

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  • #
    Joe V.

    The country is now being run to serve the minority Agenda of the Greens. A classic example of coalition Govt. not serving the majority. The populous ALP meanwhile use the coalition to justify some of their nuttier, authoritarian, tendencies , that they
    wouldn’t dare wheel out
    on their own.

    The shameful Con-Dem colation in England is being used in much the
    same way.
    Politicians are in a class of their own. The only thing that keeps them real, is that irksome threat of the ballot box.

    00

  • #
    Adam Smith

    [The country is now being run to serve the minority Agenda of the Greens. A classic example of coalition Govt. not serving the majority.]
    No, the federal government is a minority Labor government, it is not a Labor + Green Coalition government, as (unlike the current situation in Tasmania) only Labor MPs have ministries.

    And also, you should keep in mind that Labor and the Liberals + Nationals both have 72 seats (W.A. Nat Tony Crook sits on the cross bench, he is not part of the Coalition). So there is no mathematical way for either Labor or the Lib + Nat Coalition to operate as a majority government.

    00

  • #

    Adam Smith…. I should imagine hundreds of trucks (? thousands of vehicles) traveling into Canberra will disrup the regular traffic…. surely that will make the 6pm news?

    00

  • #
    Bush bunny

    Memory vault sorry I thought Adam referred to it? Also don’t forget rally in Tamworth 16th August. They are trying to arrange buses from other New England areas such as Armidale. I thought this rally also coincided with the convoy too. Maybe I am wrong but I thought this was associated during Prof Carters free forum on 21st July in Tamworth? Any clues if that is right?

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  • #
    Adam Smith

    [Adam Smith…. I should imagine hundreds of trucks (? thousands of vehicles) traveling into Canberra will disrup the regular traffic…. surely that will make the 6pm news?]
    Oh yeah traffic disruption sure, but it won’t disrupt the government from legislating its agenda.

    You know, the dog may bark, but the caravan (or convoy) moves on.

    00

  • #
    P Dragone

    MV,

    And to think, earlier in the day he was bragging to Jo about how much better his English was compared to hers.

    Please forgive me for pointing out that starting a sentence with a co-ordinating conjunction is not considered very good form.

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  • #
    Bush bunny

    Adam@ 522, Brownshirt signed a agreement with Julia to have
    a coalition with one rep in the lower house. It was Brandt
    Oakeshott, Wilkie and Windsor that sided with Labor and the Greens.

    Poor Bob Katter from Qld sided with the coalition. If Windsor had sided with the coalition it would still be a hung parliament and he saw the way to stabilize the government was to side with labor with Oakeshott, Wilkie and Brandt. Or another election to be called that would have left Australia without and effective government for too long, plus the expense involved with no promise that it would not have been a repeat. He has said that the ALP will not be returned in 2013 and at one time said that he didn’t believe the government would go full term. But all along Windsor has said he doesn’t approve a Carbon Tax, unless other countries go along with it, or it does change the climate?
    It’s not passed yet, so wait for more fireworks in Parliament House when they present it.

    00

  • #
    Adam Smith

    Please forgive me for pointing out that starting a sentence with a co-ordinating conjunction is not considered very good form.

    I nominate this for post of the night.

    00

  • #
    Adam Smith

    Adam@ 522, Brownshirt signed a agreement with Julia to have
    a coalition with one rep in the lower house. It was Brandt
    Oakeshott, Wilkie and Windsor that sided with Labor and the Greens.

    That doesn’t constitute a “coalition government”. A coalition government is one where different parties share ministries.

    The agreements Labor signed with the Greens, Wilkie, Oakeshot and Windsor were simply to guarantee supply and confidence on the floor of the House of Reps.

    That is not a coalition agreement.

    PS: Who is “brownshirt”, surely your arguments aren’t so weak that you have to revert to calling people Nazis?

    00

  • #
    Bush bunny

    This debate is going in circles a bit.

    GOOD LUCK THE CONVOY AND MAYBE AS ADAM HAS SAID THEY WILL STILL LEGISLATE THEN IT WILL BE A BRAVE POLLIE TO VOTE FOR IT WHEN VOTERS FROM THEIR ELECTORATE UNITE IN PROTEST.

    LETS PROMOTE IT AS MUCH AS WE CAN IN LOCAL PAPERS ESPECIALLY IF PASSING THROUGH THE LOCAL AREA.

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  • #
    Cate S

    Hey Jo – just for something different, here is a small sample of why people are going to join in the Convoy…yep …that BIG map up the top of the page…has people coming from everywhere…and here are a few examples why :) Cheers Cate :) (Oh, I didn’t compile this – this was sent to me as to reasons why this person is driving to Canberra!)

    This is a sad (but true) “success list” of our federal ‘government’, (for want of a better title)…

    Top 50 Gillard/Rudd/Swan Lemons

    1… Carbon Tax – “There will be no carbon tax under the Government I lead.”

    2… NBN – $50 billion but no cost-benefit analysis

    3… Building the Education Revolution – The school halls fiasco

    4… Home Insulation Plan (Pink Batts) – Dumped

    5. Citizens Assembly – Dumped

    6… Cash for Clunkers – Dumped

    7… Hospital Reform – Nothing

    8… Digital set-top boxes – Cheaper at Harvey Norman

    9… Emissions Trading Scheme – Abandoned

    10. Mining Tax – Continuing uncertainty for our miners

    11. Livestock export ban to Indonesia – Over-reaction

    12. Detention Centres – Riots & cost blow-outs

    13. East Timor ‘solution’ – Announced before agreed

    14. Malaysia ‘solution’ – STUFF ME – JUST GOT SIGNED & WHAT A JOKE IT IS

    15. Manus Island ‘solution’ – On the backburner

    16. Computers in Schools – $1.4 billion blow out; less than half delivered

    17. Cutting Red Tape – 12,835 new regulations, only 58 repealed

    18. Asia Pacific Community – Another expensive Rudd frolic. Going nowhere

    19. Green Loans Program – Abandoned. Only 3.5% of promised loans delivered

    20. Solar Homes & Communities plan – Shut down after $534 million blow out

    21. Green Car Innovation Fund – Abandoned

    22. Solar Credits Scheme – Scaled back

    23. Green Start Program – Scrapped

    24. Retooling for Climate Change Program – Abolished

    25. Childcare Centres – Abandoned. 260 promised, only 38 delivered

    26. Take a “meat axe”‘ to the Public Service – 24,000 more public servants and growing!

    27. Murray Darling Basin Plan – back to the drawing board

    28. 2020 Summit – Meaningless talkfest

    29. Tax Summit – Deferred and downgraded

    30. Population Policy – Sets no targets

    31. Fuel Watch – Abandoned

    32. Grocery Choice – Abandoned

    33. $900 Stimulus cheques – Sent to dead people and overseas residents

    34. Foreign Policy – In turmoil with Rudd running riot

    35. National Schools Solar Program – Closing two years early

    36. Solar Hot Water Rebate – Abandoned

    37. Oceanic Viking – Caved in

    38. GP Super Clinics – 64 promised, only 11 operational

    39. Defence Family Healthcare Clinics – 12 promised, none delivered

    40. Trade Training Centres – 2650 promised, 70 operational

    41. Bid for UN Security Council seat – An expensive Rudd frolic

    42. My School Website – Revamped but problems continue

    43. National Curriculum – States in uproar

    44. Small Business Superannuation Clearing House – 99% of small businesses reject it

    45. Indigenous Housing Program – way behind schedule

    46. Rudd Bank – Went nowhere

    47. Using cheap Chinese fabrics for ADF uniforms – Ditched

    48. Innovation Ambassadors Program – junked

    49. Six Submarines – none operational

    50. Debt limit to be increased to $250 billion – to pay for all of the above and much more by us.

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  • #
    Bush bunny

    Adam I see where you are coming from, but as Brownshirts were Italian and Black shirts were Nazis, I would say that the term is meant to refer to Bob Brown and his fascist styled agenda. Fascist ideology will insist on trying to silence the press or media presenting their science and showing how the Greens and ALP science is a fraud, and a lie. That’s what fascists do, they try to silence the opposition and the media to present only one side of politics. Nothing democratic in that and freedom of the press is of course not going their way. You are thinking about the UK Coalition, was the only way that the Tory’s could have gained power with the help of the Lib-Democrats.

    Bob did sign an agreement of support with the labor government before the hung parliament was joined by the Independents. And used the word coalition. The one green always supported the ALP as they gave their preferences to the Greens, why not?

    So you see that this carbon tax, is going to be one hot spot, and if the ALP go down so will the Greens. ‘If you sleep with dogs you will get fleas’. LOL

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  • #
    memoryvault

    P Dragone @ 526 @ Adam Smith @ 528

    Please forgive me for pointing out that starting a sentence with a co-ordinating conjunction is not considered very good form.

    A snobbish fad developed by snotty-nosed English public-schoolboys who were required to learn Latin in the 19th century.

    Try reading a bit of Charles Dickens – A Tale of Two Cities would be a good place to start.

    Seems to have worked out all right for him.

    A little bit of knowledge . . .

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  • #
    Bush bunny

    Excellent Cate S @ 531. Also we should add, that MPCCC met after the July 10th announcement to iron out some loose ends. The Congestion tax has been added to the tax debate. Meaning more motorists or heavy vehicles will be taxed when using certain roads.

    Now Gillard has denied this, but the press got onto it.
    So go forth the Convoy with all the blessing of us who can only support your spirit and hope it scares the pooh with pollies who are going to vote for the carbon tax.

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  • #
    Adam Smith

    Adam I see where you are coming from, but as Brownshirts were Italian and Black shirts were Nazis,

    Um, wrong way around mate. The brownshirts were Nazis, the blackshirts were Italian Fascists. If you don’t believe me, try using Google to find images of the official uniforms which are clearly brown and have Nazi armbands.

    I also find it laughable for you to simply assert that calling someone a brownshirt is fine because that means they are only like a member of an Italian fascist militia, as if that suggests you are interested in free and fair debate!

    Bob did sign an agreement of support with the labor government before the hung parliament was joined by the Independents. And used the word coalition

    Wrong again! The agreement uses the word “Coalition” once, and it is to refer to Coalition (Liberal and National) MPs, not a Coalition between Labor and the Greens! You can read the full text here:
    http://democraticaudit.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/100901-Final-Agreement-ALP.docx

    So you see that this carbon tax, is going to be one hot spot, and if the ALP go down so will the Greens. ‘If you sleep with dogs you will get fleas’. LOL

    The ETS legislation is worth losing an election over. Once it is passed and is duly given royal assent, it will become law and will never be repealed by any government.

    In fact, a law professor on NewsRadio pointed out that the draft bills contain very little in the way of regulations, almost all aspects of the ETS are written into the legislation, and thus could only be repealed with another bill passing both houses.

    The problem for the Coalition is that the Greens will have the balance of power in the Senate until at least July 1st 2014, and most likely until July 1st, 2017.

    The only way to break that would be for the Coalition to win two elections, including a double dissolution sometime in late 2014, but that still means they couldn’t repeal the ETS until early 2015 at the earliest, when it would’ve been in operation for over 2.5 years.

    In summary. It won’t happen. Once it is law, no Government will change it because 1) they either won’t have the numbers or 2) doing so would require handing out billions of compensation to the big polluters which could only be achieved by raising other taxes or borrowing money.

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  • #
    MaryFJohnston

    Try “with impunity’

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  • #
    Adam Smith

    Try reading a bit of Charles Dickens – A Tale of Two Cities would be a good place to start.

    I like that book, it is very left wing and provides a good social message that industrialists don’t always have the betterment of society in mind.

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  • #
    MaryFJohnston

    Care S at 531

    Fantastic list

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  • #
    Bush bunny

    Oh I see Cate et al the trolls are thumbing us down, just as well they haven’t the guts to answer first the objections to our posts. Babies spit out dummies when they don’t get their own way all the time and the truth fronts them.

    I am going to bed now so ta ta for now. I think I will watch Independence Day again.

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  • #
    Bush bunny

    Adam The black shirts also were Oswald Mosely’s fascist movement. Brownshirts are also been associated with something to do with Obama. I don’t really care whether they are associated with the Nazis Storm troopers or fascists but having a surname Brown and what he promotes is to me suggestive of fascist/Nazi mentality.

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  • #
    memoryvault

    Adan Smith @ 537

    I like that book, it is very left wing and provides a good social message that industrialists don’t always have the betterment of society in mind.

    And in it Dickens starts a lot of sentences with coordinating conjunctions.

    But as usual, in the space of less than five minutes, you forgot what the original debate was about in the first place. Is that a medical condition Adam?

    Or just another example of slither, slither, slither.

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  • #
    Bush bunny

    Adam worth losing an election over, get real. They can change legislation, didn’t they stop capital punishment.
    But you can have any legislation amended and those who say
    the carbon cops appointed have the jobs axed and all the bureaucrats put on part time? LOL

    00

  • #
    Mark D.

    Adam Smith @ 494:

    Oh yeah the double standards are pretty obvious. But there main alternative to name calling is stuff like this:

    If not, would you kindly shut the F^%$# up?

    First, hardly a sentence and you are wrong. Please review the correct use of there, their, etc.

    Second mistake, you have quoted me out of context. I didn’t disagree with you or your teammates. You simply are off topic and as such a nuisance to the thread subject.

    How about another name for you: Troll.

    Troll, what part are you taking in the convoy? Or will you kindly take my advice?

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  • #
    memoryvault

    Cate S @ 531

    Excellent list Cate – keep up the good work.

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  • #
    Adam Smith

    I don’t really care whether they are associated with the Nazis Storm troopers or fascists

    The fact what you said was wrong, but your inability to admit that you were wrong, is duly noted.

    …but having a surname Brown and what he promotes is to me suggestive of fascist/Nazi mentality.

    WHAT!? Bob Brown is a Nazi because of his surname?

    UNBELIEVABLE! This forum gets wackier by the day.

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  • #
    Adam Smith

    Adam worth losing an election over, get real. They can change legislation, didn’t they stop capital punishment.

    Yes legislation can be changed, but the anti-carbon tax people don’t understand, and don’t want to understand, that the Government’s legislation actually sets up a fixed price ETS where businesses by pollution permits from the government. Once the government has sold them, the permit is the company’s property and can be traded back to the government.

    According to the constitution, governments can only acquire property off of an individual or corporation “on just terms”, which in practice means paying out lots of money, in some cases BEYOND the market value of the property.

    In the case of carbon permits, we know that will be about $7.4 billion in the first year alone.

    Where does the government get that money from? Will it borrow it? Or will it increase other taxes?

    Either of those options is politically unpalatable. That’s why I propose to you that once the ETS is passed, it will never be repealed by any government, Labor or Coalition.

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  • #
    Adam Smith

    But as usual, in the space of less than five minutes, you forgot what the original debate was about in the first place. Is that a medical condition Adam?

    Interesting, typical ad hominem crap because you can’t actually debate the issues.

    REPLY: Actually Adam, what you’ve quoted does not show an ad hominem attack. It’s merely an insult.

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  • #
    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 502

    43 posts and four hours since the floor was thrown open to you for a “science” debate. Any subject you like. And what have you offered.

    Nothing.

    Hell, you can’t even hold a debate on the use of conjunctions for longer than five minutes and two posts – and you want to debate science?

    00

  • #
    Ben

    Bush bunny @ 532

    Adam I see where you are coming from, but as Brownshirts were Italian and Black shirts were Nazis, I would say that the term is meant to refer to Bob Brown and his fascist styled agenda.

    Ummm well actually the Brown shirts were nazis – the SA led by Ernst Rohm.

    The SA was the first Nazi paramilitary group to develop pseudo-military titles for bestowal upon its members. The SA ranks were adopted by several other Nazi Party groups, chief amongst them the SS, itself originally a branch of the SA. Brown-coloured shirts were chosen as the SA uniform because a large batch of them were cheaply available after World War I, having originally been ordered during the war for colonial troops posted to Germany’s former African colonies.

    The Blackshirts were in fact the Italian fascists.

    The Blackshirts (Italian: camicie nere, CCNN, or squadristi) were Fascist paramilitary groups in Italy during the period immediately following World War I and until the end of World War II. Blackshirts were officially known as the Voluntary Militia for National Security (Milizia Volontaria per la Sicurezza Nazionale, or MVSN).

    Your reference to “Greens and ALP science” is just bizarre as would be a reference to “Liberal science”. Science is a pursuit of knowledge based on observation and measurement of phenomena.

    Still, one does not expect very high standards of accuracy on this blog despite its moderators scientific pretensions.

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  • #
    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 547

    But as usual, in the space of less than five minutes, you forgot what the original debate was about in the first place. Is that a medical condition Adam?

    Interesting, typical ad hominem crap because you can’t actually debate the issues.

    So you ARE planning to debate the historical use of conjunctions to start sentences after all Adam.

    Fair enough then – off you go.

    Promise I won’t interrupt.

    00

  • #
    Adam Smith

    Hell, you can’t even hold a debate on the use of conjunctions for longer than five minutes and two posts

    I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but the person who critiqued your grammar was P Dragone in post 526. So please take up your argument about the correct use of the English language with him or her.

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  • #
    Adam Smith

    So you ARE planning to debate the historical use of conjunctions to start sentences after all Adam.

    I don’t know how many times I need to say this, but have a read of post 526. It wasn’t me that pointed out your grammatical errors.

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  • #

    Winston:
    August 2nd, 2011 at 11:03 am
    It is interesting to note that “Adam Smith” in particular chose to go on the attack on a thread about a convoy to make peaceful protest at an onerous tax by trying to divert to scientifc arguments from authority about the “science” of climate, yet when previous multiple posts dealt specifically with these very issues he was nowhere to be seen.

    A trait of the left (and not saying that all skeptics are right, or all warmists are left – but the leaders are) is to fear the very tactics they use. They love the protest (but rarely is it peaceful), but abhor its use by those on the other side. That is why they attack the messenger in these cases. And hence my warning at the beginning. The violence associated with the convoy will come from them as they try to disrupt it.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 551

    I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but the person who critiqued your grammar was P Dragone in post 526. So please take up your argument about the correct use of the English language with him or her.

    My apologies, I was sure you were the same Adam Smith who posted the following:

    Adam Smith @ 528

    Please forgive me for pointing out that starting a sentence with a co-ordinating conjunction is not considered very good form.

    I nominate this for post of the night.

    So now you wish to disown and distance yourself from something that only an hour ago you nominated as the “post of night”?

    Have I got it right Adam Smith?

    And you want to debate something as complex as science?

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    Adam Smith

    They love the protest (but rarely is it peaceful), but abhor its use by those on the other side.

    I’m all in favour of peaceful protests.

    What I am against is people reverting to slurs, such as saying that someone is a “brownshirt” simply because their surname is “Brown”.

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    Adam Smith

    [So now you wish to disown and distance yourself from something that only an hour ago you nominated as the “post of night”?]

    No, not at all. In fact, thank you for quoting it, it enabled me to laugh at the genius of the post all over again.

    Have I got it right Adam Smith?

    I doubt it, because you don’t seem to get much right.

    And you want to debate something as complex as science?

    OK, I’ll start by saying that the Theory of Evolution is the unifying theory of biology.

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    Join our group with over 11,000 aussies who are supporting your convoy because we don’t trust this goverment our wall is open for organiser of rallies http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-Bet-We-Can-Get-100000-people-to-Say-NO-to-the-Carbon-Tax/163658930354822

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 555

    What I am against is people reverting to slurs, such as saying that someone is a “brownshirt” simply because their surname is “Brown”.

    Yeah.

    Simply subjecting them to Nuremberg-style trials for crimes against humanity, tattooing them, loading them on death trains, and sending them concentration camps to be gassed as a final solution to denial,

    is, well, so much more “civilised”.

    And hardly suggestive of anything at all.

    I mean, who on earth could take offence at that?

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 556

    OK, I’ll start by saying that the Theory of Evolution is the unifying theory of biology.

    OK, and your point is . . . .

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    Adam Smith

    Simply subjecting them to Nuremberg-style trials for crimes against humanity, tattooing them, loading them on death trains, and sending them concentration camps to be gassed as a final solution to denial,

    Blah, you are arguing against straw as I have never proposed any of these things.

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    Adam Smith

    OK, and your point is . . . .

    Oh, I thought you wanted to discuss science.

    My bad.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 560

    Oh, I thought you wanted to discuss science.

    Too true Adam Smith.

    But at the moment we at the point of two wine lovers debating wine. So far you have said -

    “I prefer a Cabernet Merlot because . . . . . ”

    and I am waiting with baited breath for your next utterance to decide if I agree or disagree with it.

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    Mark D.

    Ben says:

    Still, one does not expect very high standards of accuracy on this blog despite its moderators scientific pretensions.

    No Ben. You are wrong. Jo has stated many times that posters need to “self moderate”. Inaccuracies are the responsibility of the individual poster.

    Still one does not expect very high standards of reason from Trolls…..

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    Adam Smith:
    August 2nd, 2011 at 5:44 pm

    By reverting to such Nazi sloganeering you are debasing debate and demonstrating to everyone that you don’t have confidence in the quality of your own arguments.

    I am sure Hitler and Goebbels would rejoice to find out that they no longer have to fear rhetoric. While the over use of Nazi symbolism is tiring and as you indicate, demonstrates a lack of debating skills, the total removal of history’s lessons from our lexicon is equally as abhorrent since it assures those mistakes will be made again. The reason for analogies is because they are appropriate at times. To dismiss all of them out of hand is as lazy as using them when they are not appropriate.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 559

    Blah, you are arguing against straw as I have never proposed any of these things.

    Perhaps not.

    But you’ve never posted against them being used by others, have you?

    You take great delight, for instance, in trying to smear everybody here with Abott’s failings, but tend to get upset when the same is done back to you.

    Have you ever read anything by me claiming CO2 was “weightless”?

    No?

    Then go back and read some of your own earlier posts – hypocrite.

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    Adam Smith

    But at the moment we at the point of two wine lovers debating wine. So far you have said -

    Now here’s your mistake. I don’t drink wine.

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    Bush bunny

    Adam Smith the media suggested that Lord Monckton be banned
    headlines ‘Ban The Lord’ then tried to defame him by saying he wasn’t a peer of the realm but he is a Viscount and is a non voting member of the House of Lords. Hitler banned all titles you know too, because he was a lowly corporal in the Army. The media suggested that all skeptics or d’s be branded, and gassed. Is that not what the Nazis did to not only Jews but also intellectually challenge persons, dissidents, homosexuals
    or political opponents.

    OK I suggest that you wouldn’t suggest these personally and hope you wouldn’t as it is illegal to make death threats. But you object to comparisons with Nazis and Fascists who conducted the same agenda. Sorry guilty by association. Sleep with dogs and you get fleas.

    But you worry about whether a gay politician should be jokingly addressed as Brownshirt? What about a ‘Brown nose’ when describing someone who sucks up to social superiors and seeks more power as a result. I can see why you are upset but you can call us deniers without any feeling it is not politically correct? Double standards eh.

    I must reluctantly leave you as I have to turn up tomorrow to complete
    my Diploma in Organic Agriculture. Yes I know something about soil sequestration, CO2, carbon and methane. And sustainable farming.

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    Adam Smith

    the total removal of history’s lessons from our lexicon is equally as abhorrent since it assures those mistakes will be made again. The reason for analogies is because they are appropriate at times.

    Sorry but we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. No credible analogy can be drawn between the Nazi’s turning Germany into a dictatorship and a democratically elected government following all constitutional, democratic and parliamentary procedures in order to enact a policy that you simply happen to disagree with.

    Drawing an equivalence between those things demonstrates that you simply have absolutely no idea about the horror and tyranny that the Nazi regime conducted against both its own people and half of Europe. Maybe it is you that needs to read up on some history?

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    Adam Smith

    Perhaps not.

    But you’ve never posted against them being used by others, have you?

    Dear oh dear! And you’ve never called out Mr Monckton for calling Ross Garnaut a Nazi!

    But you do seem to get enjoyment calling people you disagree with “brownshirt”.

    You sure have a knack of taking any debate down to the absolute bottom of the barrel.

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    Cate S

    Hope you read the list of complaints sent in by a convoy participant…you should see how many disgruntled Greens are saying they are joining the convoys….come on trolls – how many red thumbs this time! ;) Night :)

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    Cate S

    Jo, just curious – what is the largest amounts of comments you have had on an article? Cheers Cate :)

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    Adam Smith

    Adam Smith the media suggested that Lord Monckton be banned
    headlines ‘Ban The Lord’ then tried to defame him by saying he wasn’t a peer of the realm but he is a Viscount and is a non voting member of the House of Lords.

    There’s no such thing as a “non-voting member of the House of Lords”. This is clearly explained on the House of Lords’ website:

    In response to the direct question, whether or not you were a Member of the House of Lords, you said “Yes, but without the right to sit or vote”. You later repeated, “I am a Member of the House”.

    I must repeat my predecessor’s statement that you are not and have never been a Member of the House of Lords. Your assertion that you are a Member, but without the right to sit or vote, is a contradiction in terms. No-one denies that you are, by virtue of your letters Patent, a Peer. That is an entirely separate issue to membership of the House.

    http://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2011/july/letter-to-viscount-monckton/

    OK I suggest that you wouldn’t suggest these personally and hope you wouldn’t as it is illegal to make death threats. But you object to comparisons with Nazis and Fascists who conducted the same agenda. Sorry guilty by association. Sleep with dogs and you get fleas.

    Sorry, I’m unclear what point you are making? Since I don’t call people a Nazi, but Lord Monckton does, that means I’m a Nazi? Sorry, I don’t understand what your point is.

    But you worry about whether a gay politician should be jokingly addressed as Brownshirt?

    Oh so let me get this straight. Calling someone a “climate change denier” is wrong, because that has connotations with holocaust denial, but calling someone a “brownshirt” is fine because that has nothing to do with Nazism?

    There seems to be about a dozen contradictions in your statements on this issue.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 565

    Now here’s your mistake. I don’t drink wine.

    I’m going to bed now Adam, but before I go, I’m going to tell you why I have been here.

    I was NOT here to “debate” you. To be honest, you’re not even worth the effort of reading your posts.

    You NEVER answer anything, you NEVER confront anything. Like a snake you just slither and slide from one non-point to the next, and trying to engage you on any particular point is a meaningless and fruitless exercise.

    No, my sole purpose here these last few days has been for the benefit of the uncommitted searcher after truth. To try and show them that there aren’t really two side to the debate. Just one side, and a lot of bluff and bluster and slithering on the other side.

    To be honest, if I had written a script for a play to display how bereft you cultists are of any capacity for rational debate, or of any scientific rationale for your cultist’s beliefs, or to demonstrate the utter lack of any real “science” in your arguments, I could not have done better than the material you have presented me to work with over the last few days.

    Your post above summarises it beautifully. You can’t even enter into, let alone hold a debate, on anything, even a subject of your own choosing. Newbies will not have to backtrack far to realise where you are coming from – which is nowhere.

    What a joke you are, Adam Smith.

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    Adam Smith:
    August 2nd, 2011 at 11:21 pm
    Sorry but we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. No credible analogy can be drawn between the Nazi’s turning Germany into a dictatorship and a democratically elected government following all constitutional, democratic and parliamentary procedures in order to enact a policy that you simply happen to disagree with.

    Indeed we will, since you have already forgotten that the Nazis came to power through a legal and lawful election in their Bundestag. They were just another party that managed to gain a minority goverment in 1933. What they did then, most people remember some of it. But apparently many have forgotten. The parallels are not perfect, but the fact that Australia has a minority government that is governing against its platform and against the majority of its citizens is a parallel with Germany circa 1933. you would do well to learn the history you scoff at.

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    Adam Smith @571

    There’s no such thing as a “non-voting member of the House of Lords”. This is clearly explained on the House of Lords’ website:

    I can link to websites that show the moon is made of green cheese. It does not make it a fact. The queen decides, and so far, she has not weighed in on the matter. So all you can say is the “website says”, not that there is no such thing.

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    Adam Smith

    You NEVER answer anything, you NEVER confront anything. Like a snake you just slither and slide from one non-point to the next, and trying to engage you on any particular point is a meaningless and fruitless exercise.

    Thanks for the lecture, but I can reply to posts any way I wish.

    No, my sole purpose here these last few days has been for the benefit of the uncommitted searcher after truth. To try and show them that there aren’t really two side to the debate.

    Hang on a second. People who are sceptical of global warming say that there ARE “two sides to the debate”, and now you are trying to convince me that there is only one, and by coincidence it is the side you are on?

    That sounds like you are trying to shut down debate to me, and you want everyone to agree with you.

    That’s not particularly liberal or democratic, and it suggests that you aren’t actually interested in the truth.

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    Adam Smith

    [can link to websites that show the moon is made of green cheese. It does not make it a fact.]
    So you are trusting your own theoretical website (that you didn’t actually link to) ahead of a letter published on the website of the House of Lords?

    Are there ANY institutions that you believe in, or are you just a nihilist who thinks that all organisations vaguely related to government or parliament are corrupt?

    and now you are trying to convince me that there is only one, and by coincidence it is the side you are on?

    It is the website of the House of Lords! The Clerk of the House of Lords is the person who’s role it is to DEFEND the legal imperatives and prerogatives of the House of Lords. If there is one person in the whole world that knows about the powers of the House of Lords, it is the person who is made Clerk of that institution.

    But you seem to be asserting that the Clerk of the House of Lords is a liar! Is there ANYTHING you believe in?

    The queen decides, and so far, she has not weighed in on the matter.

    Excuse me? The Queen decided that Lord Monckton was infringing on the Crown’s trademarks by using a logo that was very similar to that of the House of Lords, Monckton has now amended it slightly to make it look different.

    So all you can say is the “website says”, not that there is no such thing.

    I made no such claim. I quoted a letter by the Clerk of the House of Lords who himself quotes a judgement that proves that Monckton is wrong.

    But hey, keep tapping away at the keyboard, I find the linguistic and logical contortions that Moncktonites throw them through to be quite amusing, when it would be much easier if they simply accepted the fact that the man is a compulsive liar.

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    Adam Smith

    Indeed we will, since you have already forgotten that the Nazis came to power through a legal and lawful election in their Bundestag.

    Excuse me? What was legal about burning part of the Reichstag down and blaming it on Communists so the Nazi brownshirts could go around arresting anyone they liked? For someone who likes lecturing people about history, you don’t really seem to know much about it.

    The parallels are not perfect, but the fact that Australia has a minority government that is governing against its platform and against the majority of its citizens is a parallel with Germany circa 1933. you would do well to learn the history you scoff at.

    What a lot of absolutely nonsense. Not only is it historically inaccurate, but it is flat out offensive to assert that the current government is anything like the Nazi party.

    It is amazing how behind the climate scepticism of this forum simply exists a deep seated hatred for people that happen to hold different opinions.

    The Nazi regime in Germany was a blight against humanity, that in fact had one of its goals of eradicating millions of people. Anyone who thinks that can be equated to a government trying to, for example, build faster access to the internet irrespective of where one lives, and who today announced an extra $16 billion over 10 years for hospitals is in a fantasy land.

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    Adam Smith:
    August 2nd, 2011 at 11:46 pm
    [can link to websites that show the moon is made of green cheese. It does not make it a fact.]
    So you are trusting your own theoretical website (that you didn’t actually link to) ahead of a letter published on the website of the House of Lords?

    You have a reading comprehension problem.I am not trusting any website and did not even insinuate I was. You are the one that blindly trusts websites by your own admission. I am not a subject of the queen, but I take it you are, and as such you are subject to her rules. That is one of them. I would suggest you take your blind faith in websites up with the Queen, and learn to comprehend what you read.

    Excuse me? The Queen decided that Lord Monckton was infringing on the Crown’s trademarks by using a logo that was very similar to that of the House of Lords, Monckton has now amended it slightly to make it look different.

    You are excused. The price of rice in China is $2/bushell. So what does one have to do with the other?

    I made no such claim. I quoted a letter by the Clerk of the House of Lords who himself quotes a judgement that proves that Monckton is wrong.

    There’s no such thing as a “non-voting member of the House of Lords”. This is clearly explained on the House of Lords’ website:

    Your own words – both times. I will be kind and merely state you misspoke. The alternative is to say you lied.

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    Excuse me? What was legal about burning part of the Reichstag down and blaming it on Communists so the Nazi brownshirts could go around arresting anyone they liked? For someone who likes lecturing people about history, you don’t really seem to know much about it.

    You have indeed forgotten or never learned history. The burning of the Reichstag occurred AFTER the Nazis were in power (and Hitler was chancellor). Please do not display your ignorance again.
    But a nice parallel with the burning of the Reichstag is your own journalist wanting to tattoo all skeptics. or how about the one that wants to gas them? (Although the Jewish ovens came later in the Nazi regime).

    What a lot of absolutely nonsense. Not only is it historically inaccurate, but it is flat out offensive to assert that the current government is anything like the Nazi party.

    Again with the reading comprehension problems! I clearly said the parallels were not perfect – it is not the same. However, you may point out what I have stated that is inaccurate (since your accuracy even on what you say leave a lot to be desired). So what is now historically inaccurate? We know you are wrong about what you said, about the burning of the Reichstag, and what I said. So please tell me what else I got wrong. I would love to find out the first thing.

    It is amazing how behind the climate scepticism of this forum simply exists a deep seated hatred for people that happen to hold different opinions.

    A historian does not hate the Jews because he records Auschwitz and Dachau atrocities. He merely records history. You clearly have a problem with understanding the difference between reporting or recording an event, and supporting it. You may want to quote where I support any hatred or have said anything hateful.

    The Nazi regime in Germany was a blight against humanity, that in fact had one of its goals of eradicating millions of people. Anyone who thinks that can be equated to a government trying to, for example, build faster access to the internet irrespective of where one lives, and who today announced an extra $16 billion over 10 years for hospitals is in a fantasy land.

    You are repeating the headlines, yet you fail to understand any of the history. Did I argue the Nazis were good? Did I state they were good? Was the initial tattoing of the Jews just a beauty secret? Did the tattoo kill 6 million Jews? yet you have one Warmist wanting to tattoo deniers. What was the Nazis next step? You do not have to wait for an answer, since you have another that wants to gas them (not even a free stay at Hotel Auschwitz from the time line that warmists are demanding).

    And the Nazis were not always killing people. They did make the trains run on time, and had one of the best socialistic medicine programs of its time! (For the Aryan Race of course). So your plea to generosity is a non-sequitur. And sadly, your histrionics only highlights your lack of undertanding of history.

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    P Dragone

    Adam,
    Once a blog descends into arguing Hitler and Nazis, you know it is kaput.

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    P Dragone:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 12:41 am
    Adam,
    Once a blog descends into arguing Hitler and Nazis, you know it is kaput.

    Good thing no one is arguing about them then!

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    Mark D.

    PhilJourdan at various; thank you for “taking the baton” and nicely done!

    P Dragone, @ 580: OK there is a bit of humor, wry and ironic. Still off topic though, are you going with the convoy?

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    BobC

    MattB (@431):
    August 1st, 2011 at 11:26 pm
    BobC in 427 that’s not the point… being a denier doesn’t make you wrong. An innocent man can deny murdering someone.

    Review my response to P Dragone @ 450 — Re: “Sophistry”.

    You even quote Jo’s explanation, then state that it doesn’t matter, because your definition is different — while simultaneously demonstrating that you don’t know the difference between opinion and empirical evidence!

    Now, all you need to do is to convince Jo that your opinions should be the controlling ones on her blog.

    Are you really so daft that all this escapes you, and you believe you have made a cogent argument?

    (If you are ever in court, I would strongly advise against representing yourself.)

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    BobC

    P Dragone:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 12:41 am
    Adam,
    Once a blog descends into arguing Hitler and Nazis, you know it is kaput.

    (Perhaps, then, you should quite arguing about them, or leave.)

    What kills threads on this blog is when a bunch of ill-informed people descend on it who:
    A) Haven’t read any of the background material (and couldn’t respond rationally to it anyway) and
    B) Don’t know that “argument from authority” is logically invalid, and can’t construct any other arguments.

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    P. Dragone

    I wonder if you would like to discuss this vision that Mr Abbott has for Australia, or would the convoy participants prefer to be the metaphorical turkeys who vote for Christmas?

    We are ultimately talking money here, at the heart of it all. It is all about the money.

    I am quite happy to watch a line of trucks go by, I quite like trucks; but remember this. You are doing it so that, just like right now in the USA, the very rich can refuse to pay their taxes. You, then, will be forced by a conservative government to pay more, much more.

    Just like the Christmas turkeys, you will be stuffed.

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    P.Dragone @587 –

    You are doing it so that, just like right now in the USA, the very rich can refuse to pay their taxes.

    I cannot speak to Australia as I do not live there. But I can state your comment about the USA is categorically false. The top 50% of income earners pay 97% of the taxes. The top 5% pay 50%. The rich in the US pay most of the taxes. Please do some research before making blatantly false statements.

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    Mark D.

    P.Dragone re 587, interesting graph unrealistic world view.

    Look up the number of people employed by poor people. Let me know what you come up with.

    What you want to engage in is class warfare?

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    Steve Schapel

    Cate(#571)…

    See the list under ‘Popular Posts’ on the home page of this blog. At the moment, this thread ranks 5th.

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    BobC

    P. Dragone:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 2:30 am

    We are ultimately talking money here, at the heart of it all. It is all about the money.

    Only the politics of envy are about money. In the real world, wealth is what counts. Like all collectivists, you have no idea what creates wealth — you seem to assume that it is a fixed supply, and if the rich have more that means you have less.

    It doesn’t take much historical research (or intelligence) to discover that the collectivist philosophy always (when taken far enough) results in the destruction of wealth, the spread of poverty, and loss of individual liberty. (And that’s the good news — it has historically all too often resulted in millions of deaths.)

    On the other hand, the philosophy of Classical Liberalism (the maximization of personal, economic and political freedom) has resulted in the conucopia of wealth that most of the Western world enjoys today, compared to 200 years ago. The parts of the world that don’t enjoy this are just those parts that have not embraced Classical Liberalism.

    So, if you want to use the politics of envy to destroy wealth, spread poverty and diminish freedom, just be honest and state it. Otherwise we can conclude that you are either A) Dishonest, or B) Too historically ignorant to know what you’re talking about.

    Either way, you have nothing interesting to say.

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    MaryFJohnston

    BobC @ 591

    A mighty summation.

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    Alice Stoodley

    Good luck to all involved – I applaud what you are doing for our country.

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    Bob @591… You can be my spokesman any day. Well said.

    Cheers,
    Janet

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    BobC

    P Dragone (@433):
    August 1st, 2011 at 11:31 pm
    Ms Nova,
    [Dragone, you are struggling with English. Find a dictionary.]
    With all due respect, may I humbly point out that you have a very long road to tread before your use of English is ever a match for my own.

    P Dragone: Given that you are an adult (I assume), it is extremely unlikely that you will ever develop your mind to the point where you can match Joanna Nova’s understanding and use of logic.

    The fact that you won’t even “get” this comment is just more proof.

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    Adam Smith

    I cannot speak to Australia as I do not live there. But I can state your comment about the USA is categorically false. The top 50% of income earners pay 97% of the taxes. The top 5% pay 50%.

    What a load of crap. Rich people don’t earn income through a salary or wage, so they avoid income tax. They earn money through shares, which are taxed at a lower rate than the average middle class worker pays on their income.

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    Adam Smith

    P Dragone: Given that you are an adult (I assume), it is extremely unlikely that you will ever develop your mind to the point where you can match Joanna Nova’s understanding and use of logic.

    Mate, just stick to debating the issues instead of giving people character assessments. Attacking the person rather than the issue just makes it sound like you don’t really have much to say.

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    Way to go !

    Would love to see the convoy off from Atherton, anyone know place, time ??

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    Adam Smith

    On the other hand, the philosophy of Classical Liberalism (the maximization of personal, economic and political freedom) has resulted in the conucopia of wealth that most of the Western world enjoys today, compared to 200 years ago. The parts of the world that don’t enjoy this are just those parts that have not embraced Classical Liberalism.

    Yes I support liberalism as a social and economic approach. I also support liberalism and pluralism as a form of social debate, hence I think we diminish ourselves when we assert that the Australian government is similar to the Nazi government.

    So, if you want to use the politics of envy to destroy wealth, spread poverty and diminish freedom, just be honest and state it. Otherwise we can conclude that you are either A) Dishonest, or B) Too historically ignorant to know what you’re talking about.

    Yes I agree. For example I am strongly opposed to the Coalition’s maternity leave policy that involves adding a 2.75% tax on top of the company tax paid by businesses that pay $5 million in tax.

    I think this is an example of socialism that will simply result in companies that already have paid maternity schemes junking them and just relying on the government scheme (that will be funded by taxing about the 1500 biggest businesses in Australia).

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    Thumbnail

    Cate S. thanks for the list of reasons to drive to Canberra. Well said.

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    P. Dragone

    it doesn’t take much historical research (or intelligence) to discover that the collectivist philosophy always (when taken far enough) results in the destruction of wealth, the spread of poverty, and loss of individual liberty. (And that’s the good news — it has historically all too often resulted in millions of deaths.)

    Thank you for providing an excellent description of the USA today, courtesy of the GOP.

    Taxation dara was linked in my post.

    You will have to do better than using the Hominem fallacy.

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    P. Dragone

    dara = data

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    P. Dragone

    Hominem fallacy = Ad Hominem fallacy

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    BobC

    Adam Smith (@597):
    August 3rd, 2011 at 10:16 am

    “P Dragone: Given that you are an adult (I assume), it is extremely unlikely that you will ever develop your mind to the point where you can match Joanna Nova’s understanding and use of logic.”

    Mate, just stick to debating the issues instead of giving people character assessments. Attacking the person rather than the issue just makes it sound like you don’t really have much to say.

    Can’t wait to see your criticism of P Dragone’s statement about Jo Nova — you didn’t copy it, so here it is from post #433:

    P Dragone (@433):
    August 1st, 2011 at 11:31 pm
    Ms Nova,

    With all due respect, may I humbly point out that you have a very long road to tread before your use of English is ever a match for my own.

    –Or are you applying a double standard here?

    Oh, and obvious as this seems you appear to have missed that I wasn’t assessing Dragone’s character, but his/her ability to use logic, as evidenced by his/her posts.

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    BobC

    Adam Smith (@596):
    August 3rd, 2011 at 10:12 am

    “I cannot speak to Australia as I do not live there. But I can state your comment about the USA is categorically false. The top 50% of income earners pay 97% of the taxes. The top 5% pay 50%.”

    What a load of crap. Rich people don’t earn income through a salary or wage, so they avoid income tax. They earn money through shares, which are taxed at a lower rate than the average middle class worker pays on their income.

    We can hope that your other opinions are based more on fact rather than on fantasy, as this one is: US Tax Shares Table

    Also, note this rather obvious fact mentioned in the above link:

    [Note: This very top income group actually has a lower average effective income tax rate than the rest of the top 1 percent of returns because these extremely high-income returns are more likely to have income from capital gains and dividends, which are typically taxed at lower rates. It's worth pointing out that in the case of capital gains and dividends, usually the income has already been taxed once by the corporate income tax, which is not included here, meaning the average effective tax rate numbers can be somewhat misleading.]

    And this, which is not obvious, but will probably clash with your fantasies:

    Overall, these data on high-income tax returns appear to confirm that the recent recession had the same diminishing effect on income inequality that most recessions have, and that it occurred for the same reason, a sharp decline in income at the high end. This appears to contradict recent reports based upon Census data suggesting the opposite, that this recession had actually increased income inequality. This inconsistency between IRS data and Census data is explained by a number of factors such as: (1) Census doesn’t break down data for the extremely high income tax returns (typically stops at the 5 percent threshold), (2) Census income measures do not account for capital gains realizations, and (3) Census data gathered from household surveys are less reliable for income information at the high end of the income spectrum than IRS data.

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    Mark D.

    P. Dragone @ 601

    Hard to believe you could become MORE wearisome. Answer my question at 589.

    You think the GOP (surly George Bush too) are the essence of Collectivism in the USA?

    Sorry that comment gets you back to dumbass status.

    Lets keep it simple for now (till you’re up to speed): Look up the number of people employed by poor people. Let me know what you come up with.

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    BobC

    Adam Smith @ 599:

    Thumbs up, mate. Don’t, however, mistake Classical Liberalism (which owes much to the historical Adam Smith) for it’s modern namesake, which is much more of the collectivist/socialist bent.

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    BobC

    P. Dragone (@601):
    August 3rd, 2011 at 11:35 am

    You will have to do better than using the [Ad] Hominem fallacy.

    Please — I make no hypothesis as to whether you are a fool or a knave.

    Nevertheless; The research I outlined is quite easy to do — I even included links.

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    BobC

    Mark D.:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 12:52 pm
    P. Dragone @ 601

    You think the GOP (surly George Bush too) are the essence of Collectivism in the USA?

    Perhaps he is a student of Paul Ehrlich? — All you need to do is invert everything he says to find the truth.

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    Mark D.

    Adam Smith says:

    Attacking the person rather than the issue just makes it sound like you don’t really have much to say.

    What haven’t you read Saul Alinsky?

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    Mark D.

    BobC, you mean Population Bomb Paul? He’s a terrorist.

    You are onto something with these two Adam and Dragmedown. I think I am with Alice in Wonderland…….

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    Ben

    I must say the excitement is starting to build as the big day for the first departure of the ‘Convoy of the Crazed and Clueless’ approaches.

    I have been thoroughly enjoying some of the exchanges on here particularly when they try to get into the science of AGW.

    It sure was interesting today to see Malcolm Turnbull at the National Press Club rebutting some of the of the denialist nonsense.

    Hilarious when he responded to a question about how the Opposition would pay for it’s policies by passing it to Joe Hockey to answer, knowing full well that poor Joe just can’t get the numbers to add up.

    I look forward to another week of hilarity as the Convoy wends it’s way to Canberra boosting the economy of small communities with purchases of fuel and food and exhibiting their confusion for all to see.

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    macca

    When I think of Australia and her people I always come back to the brave generations of Gallipoli,Kokoda, Korea and Vietnam.

    I wish your convoy no harm. It is is my fervent hope that none of you attend the next dawn service. You would dirty it by your very presence. That brave men and women should be remembered by vindictive, bigotted people such as yourselves is an insult the very essence of love of country. Hang your heads in shame.

    [People have asked this be removed, and I understand. But I think that we should keep it to show how base, puerile and pathetically petty some agents will stoop to being. "macca" is anonymous (probably imacca-the-name-caller who won't apologize and so can't comment). People who won't use their real names obviously won't stand by what they say. Methinks he's a pretender trying to exploit the fallen and "speak on their behalf" as if any cowardly anonymous writer has the right to do that. A despicable opportunist with no scruples.-- JN]

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    Bush bunny

    Today’s comment from a Green co student who like me is studying the Diploma for Organic Agricultural Production.

    I said I didn’t believe in the Carbon Tax…(nor do most of the farmers and students for various reasons). She retorted ‘Only because you don’t want to change your living standards .. think about the poor people in the world’

    Unlike her I do not own two farms… But like her I do believe in sustainable agricultural methodology. I said ‘I don’t care about some peasant in China, I care about the peasants and poor people in Australia!’

    Wot a cheek to assume I am affluent I am a pensioner whose income is
    $16,000 a year!

    Those that are employed depend on a company to employ them. Other than the Packer’s and Murdoch class most of the millionaires are either
    land owners or work for corporations that pay a large salary. Or small businesses and service industries like clubs. This government wants to curtail poker machine use so the States don’t get any taxes. We need
    them to support us for exchange of our labor. They pay for me to live in a very basic lifestyle. Those politicians who want this carbon tax are also millionaires such as Turnbull, Rudd, Brown and particularly Windsor. I can’t afford to turn on any heating in winter, is that acceptable living standards. (Other than an electric blanket).

    So the assumption without research all people on this convoy or ones that support it are affluent is crass stupidity.

    Remember Guilards announcement if we introduce a carbon tax people will use less electricity. Well Madam, you are not fit to lead this parliament nor are your principle ministers and the Greens.

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    Bush bunny

    JO – I object to Macca’s comment. It is libelous and racist. Please remove it. Just shows the hatred and bitterness some posters really share
    against people who have the right to freedom of speech.

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    Ben

    Bush bunny @ 614

    Remember Guilards announcement if we introduce a carbon tax people will use less electricity. Well Madam, you are not fit to lead this parliament nor are your principle ministers and the Greens.

    There are 2 fundamental mistakes you and many others make.
    1. A price on Carbon Pollution is not intended to reduce the generation of electricity as that is sure to increase. Rather it is intended to drive a transition to generation technologies that will produce less CO2.

    2. An increase in price of electricity will have several effects.
    a) businesses will be given an incentive to improve their energy efficiency, something which some have already done or are doing. The smart ones will end up with an advantage over their dumb competitors and thrive.
    b) Consumers, at least at the lower end of the income scale, will receive compensation which should at least match or exceed any cost increases flowing through. They can use the money to continue in their old energy consumption patterns and be no worse off. Or they can get smarter in their energy usage and be better off financially.

    Nothing to fear in any of this. The fears are being whipped up dishonestly by the Opposition and certain media outlets, particularly the shockjocks on hate radio.

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    Stevan

    Tony Abbott has fled Australia to avoid being associated with the convoy. Do we know which country in Europe he will lodge his asylum application? Isn’t it marvelous how the climate has improved since he did his runner?

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    Paul R

    Bush bunny:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 5:17 pm
    JO – I object to Macca’s comment. It is libelous and racist. Please remove it.

    Just shows the hatred and bitterness some posters really share
    against people who have the right to freedom of speech.

    I think the sound of this convoy has disturbed a village of trolls.

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    memoryvault

    Bush bunny @ 615

    Just remember these are people who want to tattoo us, load us onto death trains, and gas us for the crime of dissenting against the current regime.

    Somehow I doubt they are the kind of people and values my grandfather felt he was defending when serving at Tobruk.

    Not that it matters: as an ex Nasho I still remember too well being pelted with cans full of urine as we marched through Sydney to ever be caught dead at anything associated with the RSL.

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    Bush bunny

    IMPORTANT NOTICE

    IMPORTANT NO CONFIDENCE RALLY passing through TAMWORTH NSW. THE DATE HAS BEEN CHANGED FROM THE 14TH AUGUST TO THE 16TH AUGUST.

    TRANSPORT MAY BE ARRANGED FROM SOME NORTH WEST TOWNS I HAVE ADVISED THE ORGANISERS TO CONTACT THIS SITE.

    SOME HAVE ALREADY STARTED OUT I BELIEVE.

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    Philmour

    Looking forward to the boost to Yass’ economy when all the truckies descend on us!!!!

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    Ben

    memoryvault @ 618

    Bush bunny @ 615

    Just remember these are people who want to tattoo us, load us onto death trains, and gas us for the crime of dissenting against the current regime.

    If you believe any of that you are either seriously delusional and need psychiatric help or you are using illicit hallucinogenic substances and should cease forthwith.

    If you don’t believe it why write such vile nonsense?

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    Bush bunny

    Ben with great respect that if you believe in the cause and effect principle you must also admit HOW THE HELL ARE CONSUMERS OF ELECTRICITY GOING TO REDUCE THEIR USE OF ELECTRICITY, BY INCREASING THE PRICES!

    WELL I WILL ADMIT THEY COULD TURN OFF NEON LIGHTS AT NIGHT. OR STREET LIGHTS. WELL THAT WILL EFFECT SECURITY AND SAFETY FACTORS TOO. WHEN THERE WAS MANDATORY BLACK OUTS IN LONDON DURING THE WAR, ONE COULDN’T USE A TORCH. PEOPLE GOT RUN OVER AND FELL INTO DITCHES AND LOTS OF DEATHS BY THIS.

    SHE SAID THAT ON TELEVISION, BEN. UNDER HER LOGIC EVERYONE IS A POLLUTER
    INCLUDING ORDINARY CONSUMERS. I ALREADY TURN OFF LIGHTS, DON’T USE HEATING, AND I KNOW PENSIONERS WHO HAVE TO KEEP WARM BY GAS OR ELECTRICITY WHO LIKE ME SPEND A LOT OF TIME IN BED MOVING THE TVS INTO THEIR BEDROOMS. And I live in an alpine environment where temps fall to sometimes minus 15 at night.

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    P. Dragone

    I have some information, which you may wish to peruse and discusss, that deals with the sociological and psychological aspects of white male rejection of AGW theories. (It does not deal with white women’s reactions, probably because the powerful elite are mostly male, and control most of the media resources.)
    http://www.desmogblog.com/what-s-conservative-white-men-and-climate-change-denial
    http://www.conservationmagazine.org/2011/07/cool-white-dudes/

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    Bush bunny

    Ben I have never said that in 615, I was complaining about the libelous and racist comment by one ‘Macca’ – Your comment is rude let alone vexatious.
    It was memory vault who has the right to make comparisons to comments made
    in the media regarding skeptical science that is challenging the governments science report and gaining momentum, hence this convoy.

    The convoy is a vote ‘No Confidence’ in the present government, the carbon tax legislation is just one of issues being complained about.

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    Projectenfour

    [ macca]
    I have read some pseudointellectual drivel on this blog in recent days but you comment about the dawn service is the most despicable, disgusting comment that has been posted.

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    memoryvault

    Ben @ 620

    If you believe any of that you are either seriously delusional and need psychiatric help or you are using illicit hallucinogenic substances and should cease forthwith.

    If you don’t believe it why write such vile nonsense?

    Google search on “James Hansen death trains” – 543,000 hits.

    Google search “Richard Glover tattoo climate change deniers” – 116,000 hits.

    Google search “Jill Singer gas climate change deniers” – 477,000 hits.

    .

    Seems to be a lot of us “delusional” people and/or “illicit drug users” out there, Ben.

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    Ben

    Bush bunny @ 621
    [Ben with great respect that if you believe in the cause and effect principle you must also admit HOW THE HELL ARE CONSUMERS OF ELECTRICITY GOING TO REDUCE THEIR USE OF ELECTRICITY, BY INCREASING THE PRICES!]
    The choice will be yours. Use up all your compensation to maintain your electricity consumption (no worse off) or look for ways of saving and use some of your compensation for other things you want.

    Some examples of painless electricity savings: low energy lights – LED will become more pervasive. Run the washing machine less often with bigger loads. When replacing an appliance, go for the lower energy option.

    Councils will pick up on work overseas on ‘smart’ street lights which only turn on when the presence of a pedestrian or vehicle is detected during hours when there is little traffic.

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    Adam Smith

    Thumbs up, mate. Don’t, however, mistake Classical Liberalism (which owes much to the historical Adam Smith) for it’s modern namesake, which is much more of the collectivist/socialist bent.

    Liberalism has always had positive and negative connotations. It can mean freedom from state interference, but it can also mean the need for the provision of public services so that all people are treated fairly and with the same moral worth.

    Let me give you an example. Many Tea Party supporters in the U.S. say they want less government spending, as they assert that this will (somehow) increase liberty. However, when the Obama administration reformed health care, the Tea Party attacked him for making changes to Medicare, which is a program based on massive government expenditure!

    Liberalism is a far more complex political philosophy than you make it out to be.

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    memoryvault

    Ben @ 626

    Run the washing machine less often with bigger loads.

    You really don’t have any idea, do you?

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    Ben

    memoryvault @ 625

    Ben @ 620

    If you believe any of that you are either seriously delusional and need psychiatric help or you are using illicit hallucinogenic substances and should cease forthwith.

    If you don’t believe it why write such vile nonsense?

    Google search on “James Hansen death trains” – 543,000 hits.

    Hansen was referring to coal trains, nothing like what you are suggesting.

    Google search “Richard Glover tattoo climate change deniers” – 116,000 hits.

    Glover is a humourist and it was a throw away comment in one of his columns. Only to be taken seriously by those with an ulterior motive for wanting to.

    Google search “Jill Singer gas climate change deniers” – 477,000 hits.

    I didn’t locate Singer’s original column but if I recall correctly she was debunking the fatuous claim that CO2 is harmless by suggesting deniers stick their head in a bag of it. Something entirely different to what you are trying to infer.

    Seems to be a lot of us “delusional” people and/or “illicit drug users” out there, Ben.

    Indeed, thanks for those searches, they led me to a lot of the delusional endeavouring to mis-represent what others had written. All the usual suspects of course.

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    Ben @626
    I only wash when we have full loads. We turn off lights and have already gone over to the new fangled ones. We are on pay as you go electricity… and they have just jacked up the rates so we get less for our dollar. People keep telling us that as pensioners we will not be worse off that is an utter load of codswallop. Evet item that will need to be transported into Tasmania – and that is just about everything will incur additional cost… from tooth paste to toilet paper, medical supplies, groceries, medicines and electricity to name but a few. We are going to be out of pocket seriously

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    memoryvault

    Ben @ 629

    Hansen was referring to coal trains, nothing like what you are suggesting.

    Glover is a humourist and it was a throw away comment in one of his columns. Only to be taken seriously by those with an ulterior motive for wanting to.

    I didn’t locate Singer’s original column but if I recall correctly she was debunking the fatuous claim that CO2 is harmless by suggesting deniers stick their head in a bag of it. Something entirely different to what you are trying to infer.

    I see. I think I’m beginning to understand.

    When someone from “your” side of the debate refers to “death trains” (and in the same breath talks about putting people on trial for “crimes against humanity”), when talking about “deniers”, it has absolutely nothing to do with the association of “deniers” with some other “death trains” and “crimes against humanity in recent history.

    It’s all a misunderstanding.

    And when someone from “your” side of the debate talks about “tattooing deniers” it has absolutely nothing to do with the association of “deniers” with some other “tattooing”in recent history.

    It’s just a bit of light-hearted comedy.

    And when somebody from “your” side of the debate suggests “gassing deniers” it has absolutely nothing to do with the association of “deniers” with some other “gassing”in recent history.

    That’s just a bit of “fatuous debunking”.

    But if someone from the “other” side suggests – let’s say, that certain fascist government policies are, well, “fascist”, then that’s so awful we have to get academics to sign a petition to try and prevent that person even speaking publicly in Australia.

    Have I got it right, Ben?

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    Ben

    JustMEInT @ 632
    If you are earning less than about $85,000 pa, you will be better off.

    The changes to pensions and the taxation rates are calculated to ensure that.

    Those who are ranting and raving and asserting otherwise are pursuing their own agenda based on falsehoods.

    Between $85,000 and $150,000 compensation will not be 100% but such people and those earning above $150,000 are better placed to make their own adjustments to use energy more efficiently.

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    Ben

    memoryvault @ 633

    Have I got it right, Ben?

    In a word – ‘No’. And you know why. You are relying on simple mis-representations to make your argument and you do not deserve any further response.

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    memoryvault

    Ben @ 635

    you do not deserve any further response.

    Aawww – come on Ben – you still haven’t explained the bit about how doing bigger washing loads less often “saves” electricity.

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    Ben

    memoryvault @ 636

    Aawww – come on Ben – you still haven’t explained the bit about how doing bigger washing loads less often “saves” electricity.

    Since you cannot work it out for yourself, I will explain to you.

    If you choose, as many people do, to do lots of relatively small loads of washing then you will use more water and more electricity than if you saved your washing until you had a full load.

    It is blindingly obvious to most people.

    Also, using cold water is a good power saving idea and works just as well with most washing detergents.

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    Ben @632 there are some earning under $32,000 who will fall between the cracks….. I have read the fine print and will keep reading it but heck pensioners will DO IT HARD BOYO! Brown/Gillard will give ya nothing gratuitously! All will suffer

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    Bush bunny

    Ben at 637. I use those mercury ridden low voltage globes, that in UK they are forbidden to put in the general garbage they have to be disposed of separately. They do last longer I admit. I put in a rain water tank that the Fed and State government paid for, bless their cotton socks. It feeds the washing machine and laundry toilet. I saved forty dollar pa on my water rates. The tank, plumbing and pump cost $2000. Oh I bought a brand new washing machine with eco savings and new fridge too.

    But thinking this will change the climate is stupid nonsense. It is like
    throwing a sugar cube into Loch Ness hoping to make the water sweeter!

    I can’t afford to invest in solar, because it doesn’t work well where I live as we have minus temps during the night in winter, autumn and sometimes spring. I can’t afford to run oil heating ducted throughout some rooms in the house. Nor electric fires unless we have visitors especially those from warmer zones. I have an electric blanket but over the years I have acclimatised to the colder temps, but some still are hot house flowers. But I can’t afford the luxury of having a house permanently at 20C. I live in 9C – 10C and I’m not cold now. I can’t do much more. The compensation of $4 per week is piddling, it wouldn’t buy
    a Maccas hamburger. Your mentality is trying to force people to change their behaviour all in the name of climate change and saving the planet.

    Still eat meat?

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    Adam Smith

    Also, using cold water is a good power saving idea and works just as well with most washing detergents.

    Do you need to buy one of the more expensive detergents if you use cold water? Or is the cheaper stuff ($5 for 2L) OK?

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    Bush bunny

    PS Ben at 637. A washing cycle on my washing machine does not alter whether you wash a small load or not, or cold or hot water. But the amount of water is set and you can use warm or hot water, that will again only effect the hot water not the machine electricity use.

    So it’s obvious friends, that he has not done his research or either still washes his clothes in the sink or river. A joke Ben.

    How about attacking washing powders that are not degradable, a far more
    serious problem to the environment. I use Earth Choice detergent for washing up, and only wash up once a day. Yes I do use hot water. And prefer warm showers to cold.

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    Adam Smith

    They do last longer I admit. I put in a rain water tank that the Fed and State government paid for, bless their cotton socks.

    Does this mean you are a socialist?

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    Ben

    JustMEInT @ 638

    Ben @632 there are some earning under $32,000 who will fall between the cracks….. I have read the fine print and will keep reading it but heck pensioners will DO IT HARD BOYO! Brown/Gillard will give ya nothing gratuitously! All will suffer

    You strike me as a sincere person unlike some here so I don’t mind responding to you.

    What you are saying is certainly not the intention and if you think in your case it will be then I suggest you take it up with your local Federal Member.

    Of course if you are relying on wildly exaggerated cost increases that have been thrown around by the Leader of the Opposition and others then I am not surprised at your concern.

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    Bush bunny

    Adam – Some of the cheaper washing detergents need to be mixed with warm
    water or they don’t dissolve well and stick to some fabrics. Not all. I do use liquid detergents for some clothes, like Earth Choice.

    But some of the cheaper detergents are not biodegradable.

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    Adam Smith

    But the amount of water is set and you can use warm or hot water, that will again only effect the hot water not the machine electricity use.

    Um, to make water hot you need to use energy.

    That was his point.

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    Steve Schapel

    Bunny (#639)…

    To be fair, I have not seen Ben anywhere make any claims about climate change. Maybe you’re putting words in his mouth. Unless I have missed it, it seems he has confined his approach here to the financial ramifications of the carbon dioxide tax. Which is why I haven’t been interested in responding myself – this is of no relevance to why I read this blog. But to give him his due, he hasn’t so far been stupid enough to claim that the carbon dioxide tax will result in any impact on the global climate.

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    Ben

    Adam Smith @ 640

    Also, using cold water is a good power saving idea and works just as well with most washing detergents.

    Do you need to buy one of the more expensive detergents if you use cold water? Or is the cheaper stuff ($5 for 2L) OK?

    I find the Coles liquid concentrate works fine.

    I also throw in a bit of the liquid Vanish Napisan stain remover although probably not necessary most of the time and probably a cheaper equivalent.

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    memoryvault

    Ben @ 637

    It is blindingly obvious to most people.

    If indeed it is “blindingly obvious to most people” – as you say Ben – then all I can say is “most” people have no idea how an electric motor works.

    Smaller load + less water = less load on motor = less power required by the electric motor.
    larger load + more water = bigger load on motor = more power required by the electric motor.

    Reminds me of the time some twit ABC journalist suggested “saving” water by rinsing your car with a bucket after washing it.

    Turns out it took five times as much water.

    What’s next Ben – shower with a friend?

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    Bush bunny

    Adam at 542. No I am not a socialist, I voted for Tony Windsor an Independent. But I fear I won’t be doing that again. The State and Fed
    governments have stopped rebates and I had to pay in advance of course first before applying for the rebate. I got a good deal and the rebates covered almost possibly $50 less than the whole set up cost me. But at the time they were worried about water conservation. That I support of course living in a regional area and once we relied only on bore waters and rain tanks for our water supplies. Ever shared a bath (good fun) during a drought? The dirtiest goes in last. Bore water tastes foul. Hard as bricks.

    It wasn’t until I moved from Sydney did I appreciate the value of water.
    And never take it for granted now.

    Primarily I got the tank so to water my bonsais and pot plants, rather than use the alkaline and chlorine ridden town water. But of course when the pump is used, it works on electricity.

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    Ben

    Steve Schapel @ 646

    Bunny (#639)…

    To be fair, I have not seen Ben anywhere make any claims about climate change. Maybe you’re putting words in his mouth. Unless I have missed it, it seems he has confined his approach here to the financial ramifications of the carbon dioxide tax. Which is why I haven’t been interested in responding myself – this is of no relevance to why I read this blog. But to give him his due, he hasn’t so far been stupid enough to claim that the carbon dioxide tax will result in any impact on the global climate.

    Well I do accept the evidence on AGW, which means that I accept what the overwhelming majority of climate scientists believe.

    Even if there is a small degree of doubt, prudent risk management would dictate taking action.

    Of course Australia alone will not solve the problem, but we will be in a stronger position to argue, along with other countries taking action, to get the main polluters onboard.

    It will be a very long time before the climate change begins to reverse. The present objective is to stabilise it at a level that won’t be too damaging.

    If you think such global action is not feasible or won’t work, let me remind you of 2 clear examples of similar action which worked:

    1. Action to reduce sulphur dioxide emissions which were causing acid rain in the northern hemisphere.

    2. The global banning of CFCs to fix the hole in the ozone layer.

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    Ben

    memoryvault @ 648

    What’s next Ben – shower with a friend?

    To each his own I suppose.

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    Bush bunny

    Adam Ben was referring to use a big load of washing rather than small loads.

    All I said was whether I use a lower water level for less or a big load the washing cycle on machine takes the same time – its the water consumption used not the electricity used to run the machine cycle. Machines vary
    mine is a relatively new model and has a pre set automatic eco water level depending on how many clothes I put in it. It cost over $1000 dollars and is computer controlled.

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    Wendy

    Y’all must be on the right track for so many trolls to be so up in arms about the convoy. They sure are worried about something that they say is “worthless”, aren’t they!!! Keep it up! We’re behind you 100%. Wish we could join in but that’s not possible. We wil be back to Perth in November tho and would love to meet a few of you! Cheers! Wendy

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    Bush bunny

    Ben I have given you two thumbs up. For 650 (for honesty) & 651 for humor. But sulfur dioxide is also emitted from volcanoes. One university in UK suggested feeding clouds with sulfur dioxide crystals to cool the climate. That’s just one of the grants they got and as you suggest, it can cause acid rain or smogs when it comes into contact with water vapour. Can’t stop volcanoes though.

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    Adam Smith

    Smaller load + less water = less load on motor = less power required by the electric motor.
    larger load + more water = bigger load on motor = more power required by the electric motor.

    This is sheer wankery. The energy required to heat water would be many times greater than the energy to run the motor.

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    Mark D.

    Bush Bunny, Thanks for the comments a while back.

    To quote you at 649:

    Primarily I got the tank so to water my bonsais and pot plants….

    Far out man, you Aussies got some cool ideas! When did you legalize that? :)

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    Adam Smith

    Adam at 542. No I am not a socialist, I voted for Tony Windsor an Independent. But I fear I won’t be doing that again. The State and Fed

    Well he is running at the next election. I would certainly preference Windsor ahead of the Nats, who are essentially agrarian socialists.

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    Ben

    Bush bunny @ 654
    I must admit to agreeing with some points you make and aspects of your thinking. e.g. concern about mercury in light bulbs.

    You are right about Volcanoes emitting SO2 and in fact Pinatubo is credited with slicing about 1 deg off average global temperatures for a year or so IIRC. They also emit some CO2 which persists in the atmosphere a lot longer.

    Nature produces CO2 and also absorbs it. But mankind has added to the naturally produced CO2 and significantly raised the amount in the atmosphere to the extent it is a serious concern unless reduced.

    So what if that is incorrect? It just means we will carry out a transition to renewable energy earlier than we would otherwise when oil and other fossil fuels run out. The price is a slight reduction in our rate of economic growth.

    But if scientists are correct, and no action on a global scale is taken, then we risk the average global temperature rising to a point where life will become very unpleasant for most and impossible for many through famine, extreme weather etc.

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    Ben

    Wendy @ 653

    Y’all must be on the right track for so many trolls to be so up in arms about the convoy. They sure are worried about something that they say is “worthless”, aren’t they!!! Keep it up! We’re behind you 100%. Wish we could join in but that’s not possible. We wil be back to Perth in November tho and would love to meet a few of you! Cheers! Wendy

    Actually Wendy, more amused than anything else.

    Love your ‘Southern’ affectations.. y’all etc.

    Bringing the banjo along on the convoy?

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    Ben

    Adam Smith @ 655

    Smaller load + less water = less load on motor = less power required by the electric motor.
    larger load + more water = bigger load on motor = more power required by the electric motor.

    This is sheer wankery. The energy required to heat water would be many times greater than the energy to run the motor.

    Well said Adam.

    Also, if the quantity of washing is less than close to the maximum for a particular wash size, then you are wasting energy and water.

    So even if you put the setting to small was and just throw in a couple of pairs of socks, you use almost as much energy as you would if you put in the maximum that would constitute a small wash.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 645

    This is sheer wankery. The energy required to heat water would be many times greater than the energy to run the motor.

    True. And since “heating water” was something YOU introduced into a conversation about electric motor power draw under varying loads, I guess that make you the wanker.

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    Adam Smith:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 10:12 am
    What a load of crap. Rich people don’t earn income through a salary or wage, so they avoid income tax. They earn money through shares, which are taxed at a lower rate than the average middle class worker pays on their income.

    I see you like to lie out of hand. You have no facts, or data. I provided them for you (source: IRS Web Site – that would be http://www.irs.gov). Some of the money is defintely earned through shares – just like YOUR 401k. In fact, over 80% of the stock market is in RETIREMENT funds for schlubs like you and I, but do not let that get in the way of a good lie.

    Please, do some research. My figures are irrefutable because they come from the agency that COLLECTS the money, not from some class warfare site. You are definitely a shame to your namesake as your economics is pathetic.

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    Adam Smith:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 10:16 am
    Mate, just stick to debating the issues instead of giving people character assessments. Attacking the person rather than the issue just makes it sound like you don’t really have much to say.

    Pot – Meet kettle.

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    Adam Smith:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 10:20 am
    Yes I support liberalism as a social and economic approach. I also support liberalism and pluralism as a form of social debate, hence I think we diminish ourselves when we assert that the Australian government is similar to the Nazi government.

    Similar in what respect? Are they both governments? Did they both rule a nation? The discussion was on your lack of historical knowledge, not if the Oz government was sending Jews to gas chambers. There are similarities as you can see. There are vast differences as well. Perhaps it would be to your benefit if you took a reading comprehension class in addition to a history one so you could then discuss the issue rationally instead of emotionally.

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    memoryvault

    Phil Jourdan @ 663

    Attacking the person rather than the issue just makes it sound like you don’t really have much to say.

    That’s the problem – short of personal attacks he doesn’t really have much to say.

    Last night he challenged me debate the science, and then spent the next four hours avoiding the issue.

    “Ben” is much the same – “advising” people how to save electricity when doesn’t even understand about varying load on an electric motor. But when challenged simply avoids the issue he introduced in the first place.

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    Ben:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 5:27 pm
    1. A price on Carbon Pollution is not intended to reduce the generation of electricity as that is sure to increase. Rather it is intended to drive a transition to generation technologies that will produce less CO2.

    Wrong – it is meant to increase the price. When you increase the price, people buy less (that is the law of supply and demand). Lower demand – and what? Utilities produce what is not wanted or used? Well if they are government they probably do. However, private industries do not (or do not stay in business long). So the end effect? reduced generation! Shazaam! Look what a little logic gets you!

    2. An increase in price of electricity will have several effects.

    b) Consumers, at least at the lower end of the income scale, will receive compensation which should at least match or exceed any cost increases flowing through. They can use the money to continue in their old energy consumption patterns and be no worse off. Or they can get smarter in their energy usage and be better off financially.

    B is not a given. It may be a conscious policy perhaps, but is not a result of. That is your fundamental mistake.

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    Adam Smith

    True. And since “heating water” was something YOU introduced into a conversation about electric motor power draw under varying loads, I guess that make you the wanker.

    This makes no sense.

    Not that that is rare around these parts.

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    Ben:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 6:13 pm
    If you believe any of that you are either seriously delusional and need psychiatric help or you are using illicit hallucinogenic substances and should cease forthwith.

    Then why did they SAY it? Who is delusional? The one who states those things (gassing, tattooing, death trains, etc.) or the one that fears they may carry out the threats?

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    Ben

    Memoryfault @ 665

    “Ben” is much the same – “advising” people how to save electricity when doesn’t even understand about varying load on an electric motor. But when challenged simply avoids the issue he introduced in the first place.

    Naaah, I wouldn’t have a clue about electric motors. Only did 2 years of Electrical Engineering as part of another Engineering course.

    You have totally, and probably deliberately, missed the point.

    It is much more rewarding discussing things with people who I may not agree with, but who do not play such games, like Bush bunny and JustMEInT.

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    Ben:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 7:11 pm
    Indeed, thanks for those searches, they led me to a lot of the delusional endeavouring to mis-represent what others had written. All the usual suspects of course.

    Do you know what a “Holocaust Denier” is? It is a person who denies it ever happened, in the face of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Some of the warmists have likened them to AGW skeptics (and hence the bad form for using the term to describe skeptics).

    However, what you are doing is the same as what “Holocaust Deniers” do. You were presented with the evidence to back up every description Bush Bunny made and what did you do? Claimed it was ‘mis-represented’? No one mis-represented anything. The words (and Audio/Video) are recorded and available for anyone to see. How you can deny something so blatant defies any logical explanation, except to say I guess we know who is truly a denier now.

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    memoryvault

    Ben @ 669

    Only did 2 years of Electrical Engineering as part of another Engineering course.

    Pity you forgot whatever you did learn – assuming you actually did electrical engineering – which, under the circumstances I’ll take with a large pinch of salt.

    It is much more rewarding discussing things with people who I may not agree with, but who do not play such games, like Bush bunny and JustMEInT.

    You mean people you can manipulate into saying things you can then screw them with down the track.

    Yeah, I can understand why that would appeal to your twisted mind.

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    Ben

    PhilJourdan @ 668

    Ben:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 6:13 pm
    If you believe any of that you are either seriously delusional and need psychiatric help or you are using illicit hallucinogenic substances and should cease forthwith.

    Then why did they SAY it? Who is delusional? The one who states those things (gassing, tattooing, death trains, etc.) or the one that fears they may carry out the threats?

    Oh dear… Poor Phil has obviously been immersed in the ravings of people who have taken a few words entirely out of context. And there are plenty around, like the denizens of Menzies House.

    Lets go through it again in a little more detail.

    The Hansen quote about ‘death trains’ was a piece of hyperbole on his part and he was referring to those trains carrying coal which he asserts will cause increased atmospheric CO2 eventually leading to widespread death and destruction.

    The Richard Glover quote was “Surely it’s time for climate-change deniers to have their opinions forcibly tattooed on their bodies.

    Not necessarily on the forehead; I’m a reasonable man. Just something along their arm or across their chest so their grandchildren could say, ”Really? You were one of the ones who tried to stop the world doing something? And why exactly was that, granddad?”

    And you somehow relate that to Nazi death camps?

    He subsequently added a note: “I’m sorry some readers felt my piece on global warming made light of the suffering of Jewish people during the Holocaust. Of course, this was not my intention.

    I was trying to express the frustration felt by some towards those who deny climate change. Part of the frustration is that one imagines in 20 years’ time, when the effects are more obvious, that this group may forget their role in preventing timely action. Thus I suggested a series of ridiculous ways of making them stand witness to their beliefs, with each of these ways dismissed in turn as absurd. One method was rejected as being too reminiscent of Hitler, another as being absurdly evil.

    My intention was to underline to the reader that I wasn’t seriously proposing these methods, but was suggesting them as a mark of frustration with the idea that people could prevent action but then pretend they hadn’t.

    That said, I accept that some readers found the reference inappropriate and I certainly apologise to them for causing offence.”

    Then the following week he wrote:

    “Here’s how it started. Last week, in this spot, I wrote a piece about climate change. It was critical of both the left and the right and contained some comic hyperbole about both: that environmental zealots wanted us all to live in caves and that climate-change deniers should tattoo their beliefs on their bodies so they couldn’t later deny their role in preventing action on climate change.

    So far, so hum-hum. On Saturday and Sunday, the piece never made it to the Herald’s list of ”most read” opinion pieces. I had nine emails – four of them saying they agreed, five against, but all expressed pleasantly. No one thought the piece was offensive or even that remarkable. The comic hyperbole was seen as, well, comic hyperbole.

    Then – sometime Sunday night – a link to the piece was put on a right-wing website in the US, offering me up as another communist trying to ruin the world through the ”hoax” of climate change. The piece started multiplying in cyberspace, mainly on websites dedicated to exposing the leftist conspiracy about climate change.

    Suddenly I was the toast of town: about 300,000 people read the piece on smh.com.au between Sunday night and Tuesday morning. I had more readers than anyone else in the Herald. Only problem was: many of them wanted to kill me.”

    Sigh….

    Then the Singer quotation I think memoryfault referred to is:

    “Andy Semple of the Menzies Institute claims it’s “refreshing” for someone with Murray’s standing to take on the global warming “scam” by expressing such views.

    Really? I’m prepared to keep an open mind and propose another stunt for climate sceptics – put your strong views to the test by exposing yourselves to high concentrations of either carbon dioxide or some other colourless, odourless gas – say, carbon monoxide.

    You wouldn’t see or smell anything. Nor would your anti-science nonsense be heard of again. How very refreshing.”

    In other words, suggesting denialists put some of their own nonsense to the test. A far cry from advocating opponents be gassed.

    But hey, why let things like facts and context spoil a good mis-representation? You folks just thrive on it.

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    Mark D.

    Ben and Adam, You are sorely incorrect with regard to the energy used or saved with a laundry. As MemoryVault pointed out and you both watched it fly over your head the fully loaded machine will use both more heated water (Adam’s comment Ben agreed to) and more motor load electricity. This should be indisputable (but you persist). Further, full loads retain more water after spinning and therefore the full load will require longer drying time.

    I invite you to produce actual measurements and records proving your point “that you can save any significant amount of energy by doing full loads vs light loads.

    Really, if you want to live what you are preaching then you wouldn’t wash clothes at all, wouldn’t bathe, wouldn’t heat your house, would live on scraps thrown out by others (ultimate recycling).

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    Adam Smith

    [However, what you are doing is the same as what “Holocaust Deniers” do. ]
    And when people here call Bob Brown “Bob Brownshirt”, they are completely debasing debate by making the whole issue one about attacking people instead of discussing the policies.

    I’m glad we’ve got that cleared up.

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    Ben

    Mark D @ 673
    Did you fail basic English comprehension?

    Heated water for washing is generally not necessary yet many people continue to incur the cost of using it. Saving #1.

    The greater part of the load in any washing machine is the water. So if you don’t add close to the practical maximum of clothes to any wash then you waste energy just swirling around excess water.

    Even tiny minds like yours, memoryfaults and PhilJourdan’s should catch on to that. It isn’t rocket science.

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    BobC

    Ben @ 672:

    I’m prepared to keep an open mind and propose another stunt for climate sceptics – put your strong views to the test by exposing yourselves to high concentrations of either carbon dioxide or some other colourless, odourless gas – say, carbon monoxide.

    You wouldn’t see or smell anything. Nor would your anti-science nonsense be heard of again. How very refreshing.”

    In other words, suggesting denialists put some of their own nonsense to the test. A far cry from advocating opponents be gassed.

    You obviously haven’t a clue what the skeptic position is. Try reading some background information on this blog ( This review might take all of 10 minutes ) so you don’t sound like such an idiot.

    But hey, why let things like facts and context spoil a good mis-representation? You folks just thrive on it.

    An excellent summary of your “arguments”. Educate yourself.

    BTY: You’re wrong about dangerously high levels of CO2 as well — it’s choking, not unnoticible. You seem to emit false statements, like breathing. Here’s an experiment you can try (to get you into the skeptic frame of mind — why believe a random statement when you can test it?): Drop some dry ice into a pail of water. Wait until there is a thick cloud of condensed water vapor above the pail, then try to take a breath of it.

    CO2 levels up to ~ 4000 ppm are in fact unnoticible to most people, and harmless as well. This level may easily be achieved by a dozen people in a poorly ventilated conference room for a half hour. Submarines routinely run > 2000 ppm to ease the burden on the scrubbers, with no ill effect on the crew.

    Why don’t you try researching the above statements? You need the practice.

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    Mark D.

    Ben @ 672, do you seriously thing this is “innocent”

    “You wouldn’t see or smell anything. Nor would your anti-science nonsense be heard of again. How very refreshing.”

    I do not know of any scientist hell even any high school science student that doesn’t know exactly what would happen. The statement fails on both the suggestion that skeptics lack that level of science, or that his real meaning (skeptics committing suicide) was accidental.

    Beyond what you’ve uncovered, read Hanson’s support of the author Keith Farnish. Read what Farnish proposes in his books. More FACTS for you.

    These people are dangerous (or near dangerous) and you are willing to go along as a “precaution”. You are a delusional fool and if your age is accurately represented by your image, you should know better.

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    Wendy

    Ben:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 9:56 pm
    Actually Wendy, more amused than anything else.
    Love your ‘Southern’ affectations.. y’all etc.
    Bringing the banjo along on the convoy?

    Oh look! There’s one now!
    I guess you can’t read because I quite plainly said we weren’t able to join in.
    If you “love” my southern (Houston Texas, in fact) affectation so much, why are you making fun of it? Oh I know!!! You got it totally wrong! I’m NOT an Aussie like you thought! OOOPS!

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    P. Dragone

    BobC

    P Dragone:
    Given that you are an adult (I assume), it is extremely unlikely that you will ever develop your mind to the point where you can match Joanna Nova’s understanding and use of logic.

    The challenge is to present the logic in a sufficiently simplified manner that people who reject the science behind the theory of AGW could possibly understand it.

    I suppose I could use pictures.

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    Ben

    BobC @ 676

    Actually Singer was pursuing one of the red herrings put out by the deniers like Tony Abbott.

    It is not the chemical properties of CO2 that are of concern, but it’s physical properties as a ‘greenhouse gas’!

    Abbott’s comments about CO2 being colourless, tasteless and weightless similarly are irrelevant.

    The oft repeated denialist arguments about it being ‘plant food’ are similarly gratuitously stupid.

    Relevant facts are what count and the relevant facts are it’s greenhouse properties, increasing concentration in the atmosphere and the consequent effect on climate.

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    P. Dragone

    Adam,
    I see you are still persisting.
    “You’re a better man than I am, Gunga Din!”

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    Mark D.

    Ben 673 so that is polite treatment?

    as for English comprehension read ADAM @ 655 where HE introduced “heated water” it is YOU that fail basic reading comprehension.

    Now how about showing me some actual evidence of washing machine efficiency full load vs partial load. Go ahead use English.

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    Ben

    Wendy @ 678

    Oh look! There’s one now!
    I guess you can’t read because I quite plainly said we weren’t able to join in.
    If you “love” my southern (Houston Texas, in fact) affectation so much, why are you making fun of it? Oh I know!!! You got it totally wrong! I’m NOT an Aussie like you thought! OOOPS!

    Texas eh… well, don’t want to hold you up, off you go to your local Tea Party gathering.

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    Ben:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 11:04 pm
    Oh dear… Poor Phil has obviously been immersed in the ravings of people who have taken a few words entirely out of context. And there are plenty around, like the denizens of Menzies House.

    Um, no. The quotes are as stated. Your spin is taking them out of context. I am not immersed in any ravings, but when those who rave must be excused by those who have no clue (since they were not there, now were you?), it clearly shows there is spinning going on, but on your part. You are trying to disassociate yourself from the rantings of lunatics while still embracing them. A sad pathetic attempt, but that is all you have left I suppose.

    Bush Bunny’s statements are true. Yours are hyperbole and opinion, with no facts. I credit you for at least trying to distance yourself from the hysteria of those you admire and support, but as long as you lick their arses, you have to taste their sh*t.

    Now, man up and admit you are wrong.

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    P. Dragone

    You think the GOP (surly George Bush too) are the essence of Collectivism in the USA?

    Yes, he collected it for his mates.

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    Ben

    Mark D @ 682
    If you don’t understand this point:

    The greater part of the load in any washing machine is the water. So if you don’t add close to the practical maximum of clothes to any wash then you waste energy just swirling around excess water.

    Then I can be of no further assistance to you.

    I suggest you enroll for remedial English lessons.

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    Adam Smith:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 11:18 pm
    [However, what you are doing is the same as what “Holocaust Deniers” do. ]
    And when people here call Bob Brown “Bob Brownshirt”, they are completely debasing debate by making the whole issue one about attacking people instead of discussing the policies.

    I’m glad we’ve got that cleared up.

    Sorry, strawmen not welcome. We were talking about those denying things in the public record. Not opinions (yours or his). You are not clearing anything up, just trying to defend the indefensible. Your mother should have taught you that 2 wrongs do not make a right, and a wrong and a strawman do not make a valid point.

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    Mark D.

    Ben says:

    The oft repeated denialist arguments about it being ‘plant food’ are similarly gratuitously stupid.

    Here we see that Ben freely shows his abundant ignorance.

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    P. Dragone:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 11:35 pm
    Adam,
    I see you are still persisting.
    “You’re a better man than I am, Gunga Din!”

    That is assuming facts not in evidence. You flunked Logic I suspect.

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    Ben

    PhilJourdan @ 684
    It’s alright Phil, I know you are American and they do not do irony and humour very well.

    You clearly fail to understand any of those quotes I gave you.

    Go back to the original articles if necessary and spend a few days carefully working your way through them.

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    Mark D.

    No Ben, the greater motor load in a clothes washer is friction, more clothes = more friction.

    The agitator in the machine will swirl almost effortlessly in a machine full of water alone.

    Once again cite something real or admit you are as ignorant as you are seen.

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    Ben:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 11:39 pm
    Wendy @ 678

    Texas eh… well, don’t want to hold you up, off you go to your local Tea Party gathering.

    I gather that is supposed to be an insult. A shame you have only listened to talking points about the Tea Party and not actually done any research. However, should Wendy be a member, I doubt she takes it as an insult as she will be defending all Americans right to freedom of speech and preservation of democracy. Concepts you apparently find abhorrent.

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    Ben:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 11:49 pm
    PhilJourdan @ 684
    It’s alright Phil, I know you are American and they do not do irony and humour very well.

    Nice Ego of yours. There is no point in telling you anything since I guess you suffer from the “know it all” syndrome. Your bigotry is very unbecoming.

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    Ben

    PhilJourdan @ 692
    And that is another problem with Right Wing Americans, they believe their own BS.

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    P. Dragone

    I see no-one discussed the article that examined the reasons why white men had higher rates of rejection of AGW theories than the general population, and which also discussed their tendency to accept authoritarian, stratified social structures. The answer posited was that this works for them, and they cannot conceive of the hardship these structures cause for others.

    That could explain their need to find a leader who appears strong, and their discomfit when the leader is not one of that social group.

    This is not to say all white males operate that way, but their rates are higher.

    This has important implications for the response to the threat of AGW, because it is not enough just to put the science and data out there. Sociological and psychological barriers will provide a major challenge for effective action.

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    Wendy

    Ben:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 11:33 pm
    The oft repeated denialist arguments about it being ‘plant food’ are similarly gratuitously stupid.

    Relevant facts are what count and the relevant facts are it’s greenhouse properties, increasing concentration in the atmosphere and the consequent effect on climate.

    Relevant fact is that CO2 is plant food. Without CO2 they die and if they die so do we.
    Relevant fact is that at 220 ppm there is a noticeable slow-down in plant growth.
    Relevant fact is that at around 150 ppm plants stop growing.
    Relevant fact is that greenhouses routinely enrich the CO2 concentrations to 800-1300 ppm.
    Relevant fact is that by doing so it “will shorten the growing period (5%–10%), improve crop quality and yield, as well as, increase leaf size and leaf thickness”.

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    Ben

    Wendy @ 696

    Relevant fact is that CO2 is plant food. Without CO2 they die and if they die so do we.
    Relevant fact is that at 220 ppm there is a noticeable slow-down in plant growth.
    Relevant fact is that at around 150 ppm plants stop growing.
    Relevant fact is that greenhouses routinely enrich the CO2 concentrations to 800-1300 ppm.
    Relevant fact is that by doing so it “will shorten the growing period (5%–10%), improve crop quality and yield, as well as, increase leaf size and leaf thickness”.

    Ho hum – so plants ‘breathe’ carbon dioxide. No-one disputes that.

    We breathe oxygen. But it is not a food, unless of course you subscribe to the ‘breatharian’ cult which believe it is possible to live on air alone.

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    Ben

    Well folks, it is my bed time now so I bid you farewell.

    I may be back tomorrow if in need of a few more good laughs.

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    P. Dragone

    That is assuming facts not in evidence. You flunked Logic I suspect.

    I suspect that you just failed comprehension, British literature, humour and Google- search, but never mind, you are doing alright without them.

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    P. Dragone

    Good night, Ben.

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    Mark D.

    Ben @ 694:

    And that is another problem with Right Wing Americans, they believe their own BS.

    That’s another problem with globalist commie greens; eventually they get very angry when subject to rational, thoughtful, logical, scientific debate.

    I expect Ben will “pop” soon. Just like Mr. Creosote…….

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    Mark D.

    Oh Ben, here is some nitey nite reading on Hanson and Farnish. Some more facts to sleep on:

    http://joannenova.com.au/2010/01/hanson-barracking-for-lawless-destruction-and-the-end-of-civilization/

    Pleasant dreams……

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    Mark D.

    P. Dragmedown, you seem to be left alone.

    So whisper the answer: Who is paying you trolls?

    Go ahead, you can come clean….

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    Wendy

    PhilJourdan:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 11:50 pm
    I gather that is supposed to be an insult. A shame you have only listened to talking points about the Tea Party and not actually done any research. However, should Wendy be a member, I doubt she takes it as an insult as she will be defending all Americans right to freedom of speech and preservation of democracy. Concepts you apparently find abhorrent.

    Seems that that is all that Ben’s got…insults. ;-)
    I’m not but subscribe to most of their platform. I see nothing wrong with having the government have to work within a balanced budget and not be spending money on non-essentials (like cowboy poetry!).
    Back to the CONVOY……I’m sure the Tea Party would back the convoy too. :-D

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    P. Dragone

    Dear Mark Deekhed,
    The fun of watching you trying to fashion a logical argument and seeing you fail to grasp simple concepts is all the ‘payment’ I need.

    Also I will be able to say to my great-grandchildren that I at least tried.

    I see you have not yet discussed my comments with regard to research which indicates that white males’ are more likely to be AGW rejectionists than other social groups. Why do you think that is?

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    BobC

    P. Dragone:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 11:32 pm

    The challenge is to present the logic in a sufficiently simplified manner that people who reject the science behind the theory of AGW could possibly understand it.

    I suppose I could use pictures.

    You would have to, since you incapable of using logic.

    Prove me wrong — give us some logical arguments countering the referenced facts in this presentation for starters.

    You won’t be changing anyone’s mind here with your ignorant “argument by blatant assertion” technique, so I conclude that you are either too dumb to realize that, or simple disruption of the thread is your purpose. Fool or Knave — nobody cares, and nobody will pay much attention, except for fun.

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    P. Dragone

    Wendy,

    I see nothing wrong with having the government have to work within a balanced budget

    With all due respect, that is why you are not Head of Treasury.

    As you support balanced budgets, do not ever vote for conservative governments as, going on history, they are much more likely to produce budgets in debt than progressive governments.

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    P. Dragone

    Prove me wrong — give us some logical arguments countering the referenced facts in this presentation for starters.

    I see not one referenced fact.

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    BobC

    P. Dragone @ 695 & 705:

    The racist theory of AGW! Precious! Who needs all those satellites, radiosondes, thermometers, etc, when “Race Theory” gives you the answer? (How ironic when it turns out that the citizens of the Third World will suffer the most from the quixotic attempts to “control the climate” that fools like you espouse.)

    Admit it Dragone: You majored in “Social Justice and Race Studies”. Keep arguing that, as you are incapable of discussing science.

    *******************

    Ben @ multiple posts: You still sound like an idiot — maybe that’s what you are trying for? Really, now — can’t you read even the “10-second guide” before spewing your nonsense? Nobody’s that much of an idiot, are they?

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    Wendy

    P. Dragone @ 707
    omg, ROFLMAO Thanks, I needed that laugh.

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    P. Dragone

    I provided logical deduction, based on referenced research which examined data on the fact that one social group rejects AGW theory at a greater rate than other groups, and pointed out that this had implications for responses to AGW. It also believe it has relevance to the people who post on this blog, as most of those commenting are AGW rejectionists.

    I see you have not responded to my invitation for discussion, so you’re assertions are specious.

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    P. Dragone

    Admit it Dragone: You majored in “Social Justice and Race Studies”.

    No, I did not. However, I would never slur someone who has done so.

    I find your response interesting and somewhat illuminating, considering the subject.

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    P. Dragone

    You provided no clickable references in your assertion. I did so for research I posted for discussion.

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    BobC

    P. Dragone:
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:54 am
    I provided logical deduction, based on referenced research which examined data on the fact that one social group rejects AGW theory at a greater rate than other groups, and pointed out that this had implications for responses to AGW. It also believe it has relevance to the people who post on this blog, as most of those commenting are AGW rejectionists.

    I think that you’ll also find that most of those commenting on this blog deplore the ban on DDT that resulted in the deaths of 10s of millions of children in Africa, while by and large those who promote CAGW and massive government intervention brush off this humanitarian disaster (if not actually denying it).

    Which group are you in?

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    BobC

    P. Dragone:
    I find your response interesting and somewhat illuminating, considering the subject.

    The “race card” has been ruined by overuse — nobody cares what you think of them. You’ll have to find a new arguing tactic.

    (Hint: We might care more about what you say, if you could make a logical argument based on empirical data that CAGW is a real threat. Insinuating that you think we are racist is just amusing and demonstrates that you really have nothing to say about the subject of AGW — which is the subject of this blog, in case you didn’t notice.)

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    P. Dragone

    You are the one asserting racism, I am not. The research has found that one group is more likely to be AGW rejectionists, by race plus gender. That is a logical conclusion from the data. Racism plays no part in this.

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    P. Dragone

    …ban on DDT that resulted in the deaths of 10s of millions of children in Africa, while by and large those who promote CAGW and massive government intervention brush off this humanitarian disaster (if not actually denying it).

    Please provide your references for that assertion.

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    Mark D.

    Dragqueen, I am not interested in the subject you have inquired about. Off the cuff, I’d say you are trying to make something out of nothing. I’ll not take your bait.

    By the way, how’s the research on numbers of people employed by the poor? I’ll respond to your subject when you start replying to questions posed to you.

    Otherwise (as MV says) Slither slither slither…

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    BobC

    717P. Dragone:
    August 4th, 2011 at 1:22 am
    You are the one asserting racism, I am not. The research has found that one group is more likely to be AGW rejectionists, by race plus gender. That is a logical conclusion from the data. Racism plays no part in this.

    Sure, sure — maintain “plausible deniability” by not being explicit, and no one will know what you are doing ;-)

    So, I looked at your links. All of them start by assuming that the threat of CAGW has been proven beyond a doubt. They reference “authorities” to “prove” this.

    Hence, the only way anyone could disagree is if they have some mental or social disfunction — or perhaps they are members of a (politically correctly) despised racial group. This junk is written for “useful idiots” who can’t think for themselves so that they can feel morally superior to anyone who disagrees with them.

    It doesn’t describe the people who suscribe to this blog, as this blog is all about empirical evidence for claims, rather than just conforming to some social (or scientific) consensus. The authors you linked have no idea what the evidence for or against CAGW is, and they aren’t interested.

    Notable Quote:

    Notably, the researchers say that CWMs [that's "Conservative White Males"] also tended to assert a stronger understanding of global warming than other adults – and those who said they understood it best were the most likely to be the strongest deniers. “This, of course, seems an untenable self-assessment,” the authors write, “given that conservative white males are more likely than are other adults to reject the current scientific consensus.”

    Now, an unbiased observer might conclude that, because those who understood the most about the science were the least likely to believe in the predictions of catastrophe, there might be something dodgy about the science. Instead, relying on their unshakable (and empirically unsupported) belief in the supreme righteousness of CAGW, the “researchers” insert their own favorite conclusion in defiance of logic.

    An interesting question the authors didn’t ask is whether those people who were the most knowledgable (and most likely to question the science) were also the most likely to be engineers or scientists themselves. The answer to that question, however, might have sown confusion and cognitive dissonance among the target audience (useful idiots) and resulted in DeSmogBlog and other such sites ignoring it.

    I’ve seen Chris Mooney’s work before, in Mother Jones. He wrote essentially the same article there, except he opined that Frances Bacon had “reformed” science by insisting that scientific authorities should have the last say on what was fact about the world, instead of religious authorities. Mooney’s self-serving ignorance of empiricism (as well as of Francis Bacon, who championed it) is only matched by his ignorance of AGW science.

    The “analysis” in these articles is childishly shallow and irrelevant to facts about the physical world.

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    BobC

    P. Dragone:
    August 4th, 2011 at 1:28 am

    …ban on DDT that resulted in the deaths of 10s of millions of children in Africa, while by and large those who promote CAGW and massive government intervention brush off this humanitarian disaster (if not actually denying it).

    Please provide your references for that assertion.

    Ah, yes: The “gold standard” of skeptic argument is “can you convince p. Dragone of it?”
    Since you apparently haven’t a clue what this site is about, and are completely ignorant of the empirical data supporting our positions — and don’t care to educate yourself about them either — Why would anyone here care what you think or volunteer to be your tutor?

    Are you incapable of historical research? If you think I’m wrong, why don’t you provide references?

    I guess this is an (indirect) answer to my question in #715: You are in the group who discounts (or denies) this humanitarian disaster. Now that same group wants to remake the World’s economy and political organization and assures us that everyone will be better off.
    Right.

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    Cate S

    For those wishing to rsvp for the Convoy on here please email tullochard@bigpond.com
    Subject Line – Convoy RSVP
    Include, name, convoy number, number of persons and type of vehicle please.
    This is ONLY rsvp email – as all information is on the justgroundsonline.com website – and routes are above here on Jo’s FANTASTIC discussion! :)
    People – it IS huge – we need rsvp’s now for traffic control with the AFP assistance.
    Thank you for your co-operation!
    Cheers Cate :)

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    I see that many of you allowed P. Dragone to have you go far, far off the threads topic.

    Way to go!

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    Ben

    Mark D @ 702

    Oh Ben, here is some nitey nite reading on Hanson and Farnish. Some more facts to sleep on:

    http://joannenova.com.au/2010/01/hanson-barracking-for-lawless-destruction-and-the-end-of-civilization/

    Pleasant dreams……

    Hi Mark, thanks for your kind thought in recommending some bed time reading, but fantasy is not my preferred genre.

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    CATE do you have any approx numbers that will be (in total) the convoy due to ener Canberra?
    This afternoon a small group of Christians met in our home, and we are praying for safety for you all, and that no menacing nasty people try to cause you problems. Let this please be a convoy of peace.

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    Mark D.

    Fantasy? Ben, dare to read the posts. Farnish himself shows up for a few and there is even a link to his on-line book.

    Perhaps you can’t stomach the folks you are associated with? Perhaps afraid you’ll learn the truth about the extreme radicals behind AGW?

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    Ben

    JustMEInT @ 725

    This afternoon a small group of Christians met in our home, and we are praying for safety for you all, and that no menacing nasty people try to cause you problems.

    Yes, I saw a while back there were some very nasty types gathered at Parliament House with some terrible banners saying all sorts of unsavoury things, some hinting at violence. You wouldn’t want to run into some of them!

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    Ben

    Mark D @ 726
    I am not associated with Hansen or Farnish and don’t feel any particular need to defend what they may or may not have said. The little I did read suggested Hansen was prone to hyperbole and that does not assist any cause he may support.

    I stick with a belief in mainstream science and economics and stay away from fringe dwellers of all persuasions.

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    Cate S

    JustMEInT
    No, we do not have exact numbers – NRFA are overwhelmed at the responses and undertakings that have been received – they are coming in from every State in Australia…it would be foolish for anyone organizing to speak prematurely of exact numbers at this stage, as vehicles will be joining the progressive Convoys.
    All I can say, is it is wonderful to give people hope and a voice, it is exceeding our expectations…well done Australians who wish to be heard…on many issues…this is history.
    Cheers Cate :)

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    Cate S

    macca #613
    An extremely offensive post…out of line – disrespectful to ALL returned servicemen, and women who support this convoy!
    How disgusting – you should hang your head in shame, for writing such a vicious post – emotionalizing = lying…ring a bell?
    PffffT
    The convoy goes on!

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    Ben @ 727

    I gather that you see yourself as being in Ben Chifleys image.

    Ben Chifley was a Christian and a regular Church attendee.

    As a Christian Ben would have known that in the day of judgement every idle word spoken would have to be accounted for.

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 731

    Ben @ 727

    I gather that you see yourself as being in Ben Chifleys image.

    Ben Chifley was a Christian and a regular Church attendee.

    As a Christian Ben would have known that in the day of judgement every idle word spoken would have to be accounted for.

    So your point is a lot of people on here should be worried about hell fires and damnation?

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    Paul

    Ben @ 728

    I stick with a belief in mainstream science and economics and stay away from fringe dwellers of all persuasions.

    Unfortunately, Ben, your slip is showing!

    If it is something that you ‘believe in’ then you are not being scientific. All you have is an unthinking reliance on the verbal claims of fallible men – men who have been shown to be more advocates than scientists, shown to be manipulating the ‘peer review’ and publication systems to prevent any alternative views to their own, to have falsified their graphs to convey impressions which cannot be justified by the data, to have systematically distorted the temperature data to create a false ‘warming’ even where there is no warming, etc, etc. These are not the actions of scientists but they clearly show that they have no factual basis for their advocacy-claims.

    After twenty years of so-called ‘research’ costing over sixty billion dollars they have no evidence to support the conjecture and must perforce rely on their shonky models – which do not constitute evidence – to try and persuade people that their conjecture has merit. It does not.

    Please do us the courtesy of desisting with your empty and irrelevant ramblings.

    Paul

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    The Convoy petition has just been released. See it here in my new post.

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    brc

    Joanne : you should ask your web guy to check where all these new trolls visitors are coming from and give you an insight as to why this thread got so much bile thrown at it, particularly seeing as there wasn’t really anything controversial in the post – it is just about a convoy.

    Clearly the level of debate and discourse is different at the location where they came from, and I’d like to know the site so we can all avoid it in the future.

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    Daryl

    The Constitution sets out the circumstances for when elections are to be held.

    The grounds do not include opinions.

    Opinions that jobs will be lost when unemployment is low.

    Opinions that ignore the fact that inflation is low, our debt is low, our economy survived the GFC due to the economic stimulus, interest rates have been steady for many months and are lower than when the Government was elected.

    In other words, many supporting this convoy appear to be doing so purely because they don’t like the Government and refuse to recognise the election result. That result was that the ALP won more than 50% of the two-party preferred vote and control enough seats in Parliament to pass over 160 bills, with none defeated.

    By all means have a convoy and exercise your democratic right of protest, but demanding another election is unconstitutional and pointless.

    Oh, ask yourself this question honestly. Have you ever complained about others exercising that right of protest in the past, or is it only good if it’s for something you agree with?

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    Ben @ 732

    It’s what you’ve got left after the refinery.

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    Ben

    brc @ 736
    I agree.

    Jo should see for example Cate @ 730.

    I wonder what Stevan said @ 733 before the scissors struck?

    People should stay nice and keep it civil.

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    Cate S

    Ben #738
    Back your truck up mate – see my post #730 was addressing a disgusting post #613…
    Now i would love to stay and chat, however i have convoys rsvp’s to keep answering! :)

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l |^^^^^^^^^^^| l
    | PROTEST CONVOY TO CANBERRA..||”””;..,___.
    |……_______=====_| l______________l _||__|…, ] | |
    “(@)’(@)”””””””*l’(@)l’(@)l “”””””””””””””(@)’(@)””(@)

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    Joe V.

    brc @736
    Yes, I remember thinking what a good natured thread this was, even for this site, at the beginning.
    That was until it suddenly burgeoned when more malign forces seem to have cottoned on to it.

    It also occurred to me that this original good natured enthusiasm,honesty& civility, seemed to reflect the nature of the Just Grounds Community, where I first discovered news of The Convoy.

    Not the most ergonomic Web Forum technically perhaps, but more than makes up for it , in real community spirit. These people remind us what this is all about. They’re an example to all of us.

    Now , by all means let’s use technology as you suggest, to track down these disturbers and isolate them.

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    Adam Smith

    Now , by all means let’s use technology as you suggest, to track down these disturbers and isolate them.

    “Isolate” them from what?

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    Joe V.

    Adam @ 741.
    Sorry Adam, ‘isolate’ is also problem solving jargon for locating the source of a problem and identifying it as such, so that people can recognise it, steer clear of it and take whatever other corrective actions are necessary.
    In my hast e I overlooked any more sinister connotations it might conjure up.

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    Ben:
    August 3rd, 2011 at 11:52 pm
    PhilJourdan @ 692
    And that is another problem with Right Wing Americans, they believe their own BS.

    I am sorry, I missed the part where ad hominems were standard debating practice. Could you direct me to the BS you refer to and the place where I stated I was a right wing American? Your due dilligence will be greatly appreciated. however, ad hominems for the sake of ad hominems are dull and boring and hardly on point.

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    BobC

    Ben:
    August 4th, 2011 at 8:56 pm
    brc @ 736
    I agree.

    People should stay nice and keep it civil.

    Ya sure — like you “nice and civilly” suggested “denialists” commit suicide at 672? So, if you’re “nice and civil” you can say anything at all?

    Not where I come from, Ben. What you say matters.

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    Ben:
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:03 am
    We breathe oxygen. But it is not a food, unless of course you subscribe to the ‘breatharian’ cult which believe it is possible to live on air alone.

    Last I checked, we were not plants or plant like.

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    P. Dragone:
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:07 am
    I suspect that you just failed comprehension, British literature, humour and Google- search, but never mind, you are doing alright without them.

    Again with the non-sequitur ad

    hominems. Please reference your sources for your attempts at shooting messengers. Until such time as you can, please man up and offer an apology for a subject you are totally clueless on.

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    P. Dragone:
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:44 am

    With all due respect, that is why you are not Head of Treasury.

    With all due respect, someone does not know the difference between a Treasurer and a council of economic advisors. Both useful tools, but hardly interchangable.

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    P. Dragone:
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:54 am
    I provided logical deduction, based on referenced research which examined data on the fact that one social group rejects AGW theory at a greater rate than other groups, and pointed out that this had implications for responses to AGW. It also believe it has relevance to the people who post on this blog, as most of those commenting are AGW rejectionists.

    You offer anecdotal evidence only. Perhaps that is why you are being called racist. for indeed without any empirical evidence, deciding that races are different based upon their race is racism.

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    BobC

    Here’s an idea for the moderators:

    This thread has, for some reason, attracted a number of disagreeable trolls who are insisting on illogical and off topic posts (often laced with logical fallacies and ad hominem argument). Their only purpose seems to be to disrupt this thread, as there are many other more appropriate threads for discussing AGW.

    However, a number of people are trying to use this thread to keep track of Convoy issues.

    Why not ban all non-convoy posts from this thread? That would make it easier for those genuinely interested in the Convoy to follow the issues.

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    Maxine

    Hottest night since 1885 in Melbourne last night.

    Lot of “Hottest temperature for. . .” records being set, hardly any “coldest temerature for . . .” records being broken.

    In Canada (and spreading, even to Europe) the winters are so mild that the pine bark beetles survive the winter in large numbers and square miles of pine trees have been killed by them.

    Just saying.

    But stuff like this scares me.

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    Adam Smith

    Lot of “Hottest temperature for. . .” records being set, hardly any “coldest temerature for . . .” records being broken.

    I believe this year was Darwin’s coolest June on record.

    The minimum temperature in June didn’t exceed 20 degrees once, which has never happened before.

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    Adam Smith:
    August 4th, 2011 at 10:27 pm

    The minimum temperature in June didn’t exceed 20 degrees once, which has never happened before.

    You cannot say that. You can say “in recorded history”, but that is not even a blink on the earth time scale.

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    Mark D.

    In my opinion the trolls on this thread are intentionally trying to agitate anger for the purpose of using the thread as evidence that the Convoy has a violent intent. This would theoretically permit the police from stopping and detaining convoy participants.

    maybe one of oldest and dirtiest trick in the book. I think there is ample evidence in the thread of the Trolling behavior. I agree with BobC that Jo should have the moderators trim all off topic posts from this point forward.

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    Grandpappy68

    Get back to work you parasites

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    Joe V.

    Mark D @753

    Must admit that idea does have a certain attraction. The the sake of free speech though, perhaps just dump them in another OT thread, where they could fester like a regular thread on the likes if Drum & Deltoid.

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    No no no c’mon people, the police aren’t going to stop any convoy because of a few comments on a blog.
    I like this thread as it is. IT IS PROOF THAT THE AGW AGITATORS ARE VERY VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE IMPACT OF THIS CONVOY.

    Let them keep posting, let them make this the most successfull Nova thread of all time.
    Blogs like Novas will be studied in years to come. PhDs will be written about these blogs. This thread (and the comments herein) will be a special one.

    THANKYOU TROLLS, KEEP THOSE COMMENTS COMING.

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    Maxine

    Stop hogging the helium, Baa Humbug!

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    P. Dragone

    You offer anecdotal evidence only. Perhaps that is why you are being called racist. for indeed without any empirical evidence, deciding that races are different based upon their race is racism.

    Am I being called a racist? I do not read the back posts so I will take your word for it. It is a totally inaccurate conclusion made on no evidence.

    I gave you results of research. It is not racist to identify that AGW rejection is highest amongst the social group of white males, just as it is not racist to identify that as social groups, females live longer than males or Australian aboriginal people have shorter lifespans than the dominant Australian social group, white people.

    A couple of theories are advanced, which suggest social conditioning as a contributing factor, and that white males, as a social group, have a greater acceptance of and reliance upon hierarchical structures, which prevents them from gaining an understanding of the effects this has on other groups. In other words, it is not an inherent trait, something with which they are born, but rather their experience as a member of the dominant social group that shape these attitudes.

    If you would prefer to dance around the subject rather than seriously debate the social science research that has identified the higher rate of AGW rejectionism amongst white males, so be it.

    As I said before, I find the responses on this site interesting and illuminating.

    deciding that races are different based upon their race is racism.

    Finding differences by race is not racism.

    Definition of RACISM
    1
    : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
    2
    : racial prejudice or discrimination

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

    It is not a matter of superiority or inferiority. It is simply a social phenomenon, that has implications for people who are designing responses to AGW. It is not enough to just put the data and scientific findings out there and expect the messages to be read and understood. Social factors will impact on the reception of this information and some groups will have difficulty with the information and will go to great lengths to avoid engagement,

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    Kneel 8250

    750Maxine:
    August 4th, 2011 at 9:59 pm
    Hottest night since 1885 in Melbourne last night.

    So in 1885 it was hotter in Melbourne than this year. No cars, No electricity generation, No Industrialisation and No CO2 tax being forced on a population.

    Wake up Get up.

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    BobC

    P. Dragone (@757):
    August 5th, 2011 at 12:27 am

    If you would prefer to dance around the subject rather than seriously debate the social science research that has identified the higher rate of AGW rejectionism amongst white males, so be it.

    I see the moderators have not yet taken my suggestion (to limit this thread to Convoy issues), since P.D. continues to bloviate about Social Justice and Race Studies.

    It is a lie, however, that he actually wants a debate — else why ignore my detailed response (@720) to the stupid study he linked? People who take this kind of crap seriously never want to debate it — they simply want it to be accepted as gospel.

    That is why they like the theory of Post-Modernism so much: There is no “objective truth”, only various “narratives”. It’s so much easier to defend something as a “narrative” rather than as actual fact. To pretend that this anti-scientific junk has any relevance to the facts about the climate (and the predictive skill of current climate models — which is the main issue determining what our response should be) is delusional.

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    Kneel 8250

    My best wishes to the convoy and hope you all have a safe, uneventfull trip.
    Represent the silent majority well and get that election soon.

    Canberra roads all full of Trucks, Cars and people should get the desired result.

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    Gazza

    any body got some tea at this party ?

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    Gazza

    4 sale
    1 Banjo
    Apply R.Supwood

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    P. Dragone:
    August 5th, 2011 at 12:27 am
    It is a totally inaccurate conclusion made on no evidence.

    I gave you results of research.

    I have read all the posts, but missed your links to the research. if so, please post the comment number so I can investigate. however, at the time your allegations were made, there is no referenced research, or any links at all. Given that you have made a claim without basis (which can be provided to mitigate the charge), one can only conclude you are a racist. You base your decisions on race. You do not have to be a member of the KKK or New Black Panthers to be a racist. Many are harmless with just misbegotten prejudices about race.

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    P. Dragone

    I am posting this link to an interesting USA radio station. It is good to get a sense of balance about the USA. I listen to it online, often.

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    P. Dragone:
    August 5th, 2011 at 3:05 am
    I am posting this link to an interesting USA radio station. It is good to get a sense of balance about the USA. I listen to it online, often.

    What else do you listen to for balance? The John Birch radio? You really need to listen to something a little less biased. That site makes MSNBC look conservative. if that is your view of the US, I guess I can see why it is so warped.

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    Wendy

    PhilJourdan:
    August 5th, 2011 at 3:13 am
    That site makes MSNBC look conservative. if that is your view of the US, I guess I can see why it is so warped.

    my thoughts exactly! progressive radio in Chicago no less! A city with 48% unemployment and “home” to Obama.

    PDragone…..do you listen to anything a little less extremist left-wing?
    BTW, PD…..what has that got to do with the Convoy????????????????????

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    Mark D.

    Good God! If you listen to that station your mind will fry!

    OOPS I can see my advice comes too late.

    Almost nothing from Chicago is “balanced”. Take Obama for example…….

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    Bob Parker stuck in pommy land

    Go Aussies Go
    I’ve done Darwin / Sydney in three days 20 years ago. You mob in Hedland are going to be bloody tired when you finish.
    Take care one and all and show the rest of the planet how it’s done.
    Good luck everyone

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    BobC

    765PhilJourdan (@765):

    Dragone linked a couple of dumb articles from left-wing warmer sites at post # 624. Ever since then he has been claiming that he has provided “logical inference from referenced research” and whinging that, since no one will discuss it with him, we all must be (he transparently implies) racist.

    However, I gave my take on it at post #720, which he has somehow never gotten around to noticing. It’s not even junk science — it’s just a bad poll designed to support the author’s prejudices.

    His claims that no one will discuss it is a lie.

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    BobC:
    August 5th, 2011 at 5:32 am
    765PhilJourdan (@765):

    Dragone linked a couple of dumb articles from left-wing warmer sites at post # 624.

    AH! No wonder I missed them. I saw they were propaganda sites and ignored them. Thank you for clearing that up.

    So I repeat my call to Dragone – give us some RESEARCH. The sites you linked to are not research or could even be called scientific. if they linked to something scientific, you should be able to go back to the source. if not, asking a grand dragon to vouch for the impariality of a grand kleagle is hardly worthy of news, and definitely not any form of proof.

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    Peter Walsh

    Well Joanne,

    You have raised a horde of weasels on this posting. Strange how these repulsive creatures seem to emerge from whatever dark smelly hole they normally live in when you are “on to something” and their masters don’t like it.

    Never fear, it is obvious that they (the masters) are scared of you, your supporters and the forthcoming congregation in Canberra. May all your convoys raise one hell of a (dust) storm on the way, when massing at their destination in the not to distant future..

    Remember Corporal Pike (and one of his favourite sayings in Dad’s Army….)

    “They don’t like it up ‘em”.

    Right now, thats where youv’e got it, and they really don’t like it and they are squealing like stuck pigs.

    Best wishes from Dublin, Ireland

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    Kenn

    What a shame that a bunch of lefties feel so threatened by free speech that they have to try and sabotage this site. Evidence? Have a look at the Crikey site Pollbludger. A couple of posters there seem intent on putting the convoy down by using trolling. Prime culprit number one is the Dragone. BTW, don’t give that site the advantage of too many extra hits but take my word for it, tin foil hat users over there. Julias doing great apparently. It’s all that biased medias fault!

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    Maxine

    Peter Walsh, another helium breather!

    I am not associated with GetUp and don’t get their emails etc.

    How is that unemployment going in Ireland there, reached 25% yet? If it hasn’t it would be because your best and brightest among the young are leaving Ireland.

    [was that an insult? sure it was. STOP!] ED

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    Projectenfour

    Thanks to Andrew Bolt for this gem:
    Seven types of troll: a spotter’s guide

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100099194/seven-types-of-troll-a-spotters-guide/

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    brc

    Ken @ 774 I posted back in 421 that I thought these blowins had blown in from crikey. You appear to have confirmed this, and that’s why I asked our host to check the referral logs to see if my guess had any substance. If I’m correct, the blog post they all came from had a title like ‘Liberals incite death threats’ or something like that. A preposterous notion, but one that feeds into the groupthink that anyone who could possibly vote for a Liberal or National MP must be a weird creature prone to bible bashing and shooting at strangers.

    So it would seem that several of the new arrivals followed a link from Crikey specifically to try and stir up some death threats, which could be later referred to as a general painting of anyone that isn’t a subscriber of green left weekly as a gun-toting nut. Hence the continued references to ‘tea parties’ with the hope that some of the smearing of that group can be imported, fully formed. The ultimate game is to import the ‘tea party people are extremist’ meme, and the apply it, ready to go, to the convoy or any other large anti-gillard/anti-carbon tax group. It’s really just the marketing concept of anchoring that is trying to be applied. So far it is a dismal failure but that doesn’t stop them trying.

    On that same crikey thread (I don’t recommend reading it if you like holding down your lunch) someone actually posted something like ‘why is it always people on the right who tend to violence, why can’t they be peaceful and pacifist like those on the left’. Again, completely glossing over the millions of people who have perished at the hands of socialists and communists just because it was organised state-sponsored killing rather than the odd lone gunman. Again, the ‘anchoring’ concept at work, but this time it’s to lone gunmen and political parties, and trying to de-link the atrocities inflicted by socialism and communism with the modern Fabian equivalents. In essence, the argument is ‘oh, those guys, they did socialism all wrong, of course we wouldn’t round up dissenters and shoot them’. So you have an attempt at anchoring of conservative points of view, which a majority of Australians hold, to isolated weirdos, and an attempt to de-link socialism, which a substantial number of Australians still believe in, to all-round economic collapse and, in some cases, state-sponsored mass murder.

    However, much to their dissapointment, what they tend to find is educated ordinary australians who hold a different view to them, and nary a gun-toting idiot to boot. Sure, some people on this blog aren’t particularly polite, but that’s true in any group of people whatever their political or global-warming persuasion. I wish they wouldn’t post here, but it’s not my blog and not my place to tell them to shut up.

    In fact, the newcomers from left-groupthink-land might be surprised to find that, outside of their bubble, at least 1 out of every 2 (and I believe it’s more like 2 out of 3) Australians you might meet is more conservative than socialist. Even die-hard lefty areas of the country like inner city Melbourne routinely record 30% primary votes for coalition parties. Rudd knew that and that’s why he pretended to be a conservative with a few little social policies, and that’s why Gillard denounces her socialist roots and ‘lurches to the right’ on policy positions, and pretends to hold conservative views when it suits. Because that’s where the majority of Autsralians normally reside. And 50-60% of the population aren’t gun-toting religious nutcases, just ordinary people and families living lives of quiet dignity in our cities, suburbs and towns. But ordinary people who are getting tired of being told what to do and how to think.

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    Adam Smith

    You have raised a horde of weasels on this posting. Strange how these repulsive creatures seem to emerge from whatever dark smelly hole they normally live in when you are “on to something” and their masters don’t like it.

    So let me get this right, [I really doubt you are able]

    [snip]

    “open debate about important issues.”

    [Well it's time you actually debate. Stop the mindless comments. ] ED

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    Peter Walsh

    Maxine @775 says:

    “If it hasn’t it would be because your best and brightest among the young are leaving Ireland.”

    A compliment from a filthy, unwashed smelly troll by Gad.

    In 1974, another time of world wide problems although not as bad as now, relatively speaking, I was one of those from the best, brightest who left Ireland to work overseas.

    However, my heart was always with my homeland and when, later in life, I had a decision to make about where the rest of my life would be spent, there was only one option. This option was and still is Ireland.

    Along the way, I read a poem by another of Australia’s youngest poets and this poem struck a chord with me when I was far from home.

    Here are the final few lines which influenced my thinking at the time:

    An opal-hearted country,
    A wilful, lavish land –
    All you who have not loved her,
    You will not understand –
    Though earth holds many splendours,
    Wherever I may die,
    I know to what brown country
    My homing thoughts will fly.

    Dorothea McKellar loved her country throughout her life.

    If she could see the disharmony and the vileness of those (this means you) who abuse the facility of this blog which Joanne gives us, do you think she would want to return to her beloved “brown country”?

    From Dublin, Ireland

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    P. Dragone

    The research paper.
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095937801100104X

    Discussion.
    http://cherishthescientist.net/2011/08/03/the-conservative-white-male-effect/

    Article in the Guardian.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/27/conservative-white-men-climate-sceptic

    An extract from the article.

    “Even casual observers” of those who argue that climate change isn’t a serious problem “likely notice an obvious pattern,” Aaron M. McCright of Michigan State University in East Lansing and Riley E. Dunlap of Oklahoma State University in Stillwater write in Global Environmental Change: “The most prominent denialists are conservative white males” – from media pundit Rush Limbaugh to politicians like Oklahoma Senator James Inhofe. But the pair wondered: “Does a similar pattern exist in the American public?”

    To find out, the researchers analyzed ten annual polls on environmental issues conducted by the Gallup Organization from 2001 to 2010. Together, they included responses from more than 10,000 adults. After slicing and dicing the numbers, the trends were clear: “Conservative white males are significantly more likely than are other Americans to endorse denialist views,” they write. And “these differences are even greater for those conservative white males who self-report understanding global warming very well.”

    Overall, while 29.6% of conservative white males (CWMs) believed that the effects of global warming “will never happen,” just 7.4% of all other adults shared that view. Similarly, 58.5% of CWMs — but only 31.5% of all other adults — denied that recent temperature increases are primarily caused by human activities. The pattern demonstrates that CWMs “are more likely than other adults to reject the scientific consensus on climate change,” the authors note. So, “not surprisingly,” 58.8% of CWMs “deny the existence of a scientific consensus,” compared to 35.5% of other adults.

    CWMs were also more than twice as likely than other adults to say the media exaggerated the seriousness of climate change (65.1% to 29.9%). Finally, 39.1% of conservative white males — but just 14.4% of all other adults – said they did not worry at all about global warming.

    Notably, the researchers say that CWMs also tended to assert a stronger understanding of global warming than other adults – and those who said they understood it best were the most likely to be the strongest deniers. “This, of course, seems an untenable self-assessment,” the authors write, “given that conservative white males are more likely than are other adults to reject the current scientific consensus.

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    P. Dragone

    Adam,

    Stop the mindless comments. Ed.

    I agree with Ed. You must stop the mindless comments. I suggest you move to something more like this.

    You have raised a horde of weasels on this posting. Strange how these repulsive creatures seem to emerge from whatever dark smelly hole they normally live in when you are “on to something” and their masters don’t like it.

    I give that one First Prize for mindful comment.

    [what is mindless about this post? It seems to be a pretty thoughtful observant comment.] ED

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    P. Dragone

    A couple of posters there seem intent on putting the convoy down by using trolling. Prime culprit number one is the Dragone.

    I have discussed topics and posted research and articles here. If you regard that as trolling then that is beyond my control. Rather than putting the convoy down, I have assisted you all by improving your site traffic and boosting the number of posts, and the visibility of your cause.

    You have every opportunity to engage, but you prefer to complain and you get so very defensive, resorting to personal insults.

    I do not care. As I said, I am happy for you to have a convoy, I like a line of trucks any day.

    I do not blame you because IMHO I wonder if it has something to do with this.

    Past research, however, may help explain the pattern, they speculate. Political scientists and psychologists have suggested that WCMs often identify themselves as more tolerant of risk, and less willing to support ideas that challenge existing economic, social and political hierarchies.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/27/conservative-white-men-climate-sceptic

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    Emmie

    I live in Perth Western Australia and haven’t, as yet :-) , been able to persuade my partner to change our travel plans and join the convoy to Canberra. However, from tomorrow our car and caravan will be adorned with orange balloons and streamers. I may not be able to join the convoy but at least this way I can show my support. Good Luck to you all – it makes me proud to be Australian. Go the Convoy!!!

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    P. Dragone:
    August 5th, 2011 at 6:59 pm

    Getting warmer. But since you appear to be clueless, let me give you some hints. The Guardian article is a good place to start and can be used as a link. That will at least get you to the core study, and regardless of its leanings, should provide you with information to do so.

    The 2nd link is simply another sham site. Why did you post it? At best, you have a link to the first site from it, but nothing else. it adds nothing.

    The first link is the meat of the potatoes. And there you get to the real study (or lack thereof). reading JUST the abstract (more would have been useless), I immediately see several problems with your contention.

    #1 – Not all whites are male and conservative. You blew that one (that tends to make you a racist since you think they are).
    #2 – the use of the word Denier/Denialist. that shows the survey was loaded from the get go. So yes, the site can ask the question “When did you stop beating your wife”, but anyone with any bit of scientific knowledge would throw out the poll immediately because of the phrasing of the question. Simply put, it is invalid for that reason alone.

    but wait! there is more!
    #3 – they purport to have used other companies polls, not their own. Yet none of those companies actually polled the issue they are reporting on. So you can find an ant in Antarctica, but that does not make them a native species to the continent. Unless you set up the poll, in a scientific manner, to test for your hypothesis, all you are doing is finding similarities, not any kind of scientific results. The polls reference quite clearly are not even distributed to make an intelligent conclusion since they were not designed for the question the first link asks.

    #4 – So what you have proved is that bad science and sloppy science are not limited to the AGW field. And you have also proved that Whites are the majority in America (big revelation there!). Nothing more. However, since recent polling ON THE SUBJECT of AGW show that 69% of Americans now see fraud and deceit, I think you can safely say that a majority of white Americans are skeptics (deniers is bad form, incorrect, and dead wrong). However, you cannot say a majority of Americans are white and conservative (I would love to see that survey, but they usually do not do it that way).

    Game, set and match. Go back to your tinkertoys – you may actually build something there.

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    P. Dragone:
    August 5th, 2011 at 7:49 pm

    I have discussed topics and posted research and articles here. If you regard that as trolling then that is beyond my control. Rather than putting the convoy down, I have assisted you all by improving your site traffic and boosting the number of posts, and the visibility of your cause.

    You have discussed topics, but posted “research and articles” here implies more than one. You only posted research on one subject, and the “articles” were all on that subject.

    That being said, no one is accusing you of trolling. Dissent, definitely. However, you are not the totality of comments to this article who have not been here before, and probably will not be back afterwords. So get over yourself.

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    Joe V.

    Great Idea Emmie @ 783

    …, from tomorrow our car and caravan will be adorned with orange balloons and streamers. I may not be able to join the convoy but at least this way I can show my support

    If everyone who cann’t join the convoy still decorates in there local routes colours, and perhaps a choice slogan or two, then the convoy’s presence can spread , way beyond it’s immediate routes.

    Well Done.

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    Emmie @783, that’s fantastic! Even better, though: join us at 6:30 for a 7:00 a.m. departure on Thursday, 18 August in Perth (specific location to be announced soon), and travel with us for a bit.

    This is a progressive convoy. People will start out and “hand the baton” to others. Spread the word! Let’s get a huge turnout of all different kinds of vehicles, decorated with orange balloons and streamers, proudly displaying Aussie flags, plus any signage with a message of an issue dear to your heart.

    Join us. For 37.8 km, 378 km, 3780 km…. whatever you can manage, whatever you can afford, whatever your partner will go for! :-)

    Cheers
    Janet (0417 815 595)

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    [...] The Convoy of no confidence is amassing towards Canberra  – Jo Anne Nova's coverage [...]

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    May God bless and protect all of the thousands who take part in the Convoy of No Confidence, and let’s ensure that it is also a Convoy of No Casualties. A word of caution. In past experience Governments have misused Police and Transport officials to carry out intrusive inspections of protestors’ motor vehicles in the hope of finding defects such as a faulty seatbelt or expired registration or an expired driving licence. And beware of the Greens and GetUp trying to plant some of their drugs in convoy vehicles before tipping off Police. Get a roadworthy before you set out, and don’t let strangers near your vehicle.

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    Wish I could come, have commitments I will do the next one if I can.. good luck all.

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    Ian Hill

    Thanks for the tips Michael. I’m a little concerned about security although there will be safety in numbers. I’m sure the police will do a great job and somehow I can’t imagine that they would resent what this convoy stands for one bit. I’ll have my cameras ready to record any suspicious activity by protestors.

    At last I’ve thought of a slogan to put on a banner. :)

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    Cate S

    Hello Jo and participants on this site.
    Ian # 791 (G’day mate)
    A very timely post. NRFA has been working very closely with Police, SES in each State, also Traffic and Roads authorities as well.
    Safety is the number one priority for all aspects of this peaceful gathering of Australian people.
    The AFP have been outstanding as well. The support that has been given by these people, is humbling indeed.
    The amount of careful planing that has,and is still going into the smooth travelling to and from Canberra Australia wide is of such an epic proportion that – well, this mum is blown away!
    Remember for those on here if you wish to rsvp on which route , vehicle and number of people to tullochard@bigpond.com would be very much appreciated.
    As a point of interest, the number of people who are asking to start at Katherine NT from Caravaners is just amazing! People, families bring their children to be part of this historic occasion – wow!
    The Convoys are already a success in regard that hope is given, people almost have a “carnival” type atmosphere who are participating. Individual towns are decorating in support of the convoy that is passing their way. People decorating cars etc now – in anticipation of the events – hope – people have hope…

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    P. Dragone

    Good morning convoy-ers, on this beautiful Saturday morning.
    To brighten you day, and chase away the cobwebs of gloom, here is an update.

    Let me remind everyone of the Beautiful Set of Numbers:

    1. Unemployment 4.9%
    2. Inflation 3.6%
    3. Public Net Debts 7% GDP
    4. RBA Interest rate 4.75%
    5. Growth rate 3.3%
    6. AUD Vs USD 1.0403
    7. Trade Surplus – $2B jun 2011- Australia’s $2 billion-plus trade surplus for June brought the tally for the last financial year to $22.4 billion – easily the biggest surplus in raw terms for the past 40 years of records compiled by the ABS
    8. “ALP best manager of money, history shows” – Mega
    9. Australian families depending on one breadwinner pay among the lowest amounts of tax in the world and have become better off under the Gillard Government – Natsem
    10. Investment in the next year in mining and related infra-structure projects $140B
    11. Labor’s Tax take 21.75% of GDP Vs 25% under Liberals
    12. No interest rise for the 10th consecutive month Vs 10 consecutive rises under Howard/Costello. It is now expected no rises in the future with a prospect of interest rate cuts.
    13. The number of people filling for bankruptcy in Australia has fallen by 16%.
    14. Australia safe from debt crisis: OECD – http://afr.com/p/national/economy/australia_safe_from_debt_crisis_rgznLP6HTyYo7nGragUwyI #auspol
    15. Credit Rating AAA
    16. We are in Asia
    17. Business investment spending is expected to grow by 15 per cent this year and another 15 per cent next year. – Ross Gittin

    I am off to enjoy my weekend.

    I will be thanking God in my prayers for the fortune He has seen fit to bestow upon us and I pray we will neither scorn nor misuse His bounty.

    Have a good weekend.

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    Cate S

    P Dragone #793

    Here we go again – so we are left with the entire reason the convoys are embraced by so many Australians – the country is divided – your post and mine reiterate it ! So get in your vehicle and go and be heard – which convoy are you going to be in – and have your magic number on it…pfffft ….yeah, easier to do nothing hey?
    How about YOU be a doer and not a whinger?….

    List courtesy of Australian voters! :)

    Top 50 Gillard/Rudd/Swan Lemons

    1… Carbon Tax – “There will be no carbon tax under the Government I lead.”

    2… NBN – $50 billion but no cost-benefit analysis

    3… Building the Education Revolution – The school halls fiasco

    4… Home Insulation Plan (Pink Batts) – Dumped

    5. Citizens Assembly – Dumped

    6… Cash for Clunkers – Dumped

    7… Hospital Reform – Nothing

    8… Digital set-top boxes – Cheaper at Harvey Norman

    9… Emissions Trading Scheme – Abandoned

    10. Mining Tax – Continuing uncertainty for our miners

    11. Livestock export ban to Indonesia – Over-reaction

    12. Detention Centres – Riots & cost blow-outs

    13. East Timor ‘solution’ – Announced before agreed

    14. Malaysia ‘solution’ – STUFF ME – JUST GOT SIGNED & WHAT A JOKE IT IS

    15. Manus Island ‘solution’ – On the backburner

    16. Computers in Schools – $1.4 billion blow out; less than half delivered

    17. Cutting Red Tape – 12,835 new regulations, only 58 repealed

    18. Asia Pacific Community – Another expensive Rudd frolic. Going nowhere

    19. Green Loans Program – Abandoned. Only 3.5% of promised loans delivered

    20. Solar Homes & Communities plan – Shut down after $534 million blow out

    21. Green Car Innovation Fund – Abandoned

    22. Solar Credits Scheme – Scaled back

    23. Green Start Program – Scrapped

    24. Retooling for Climate Change Program – Abolished

    25. Childcare Centres – Abandoned. 260 promised, only 38 delivered

    26. Take a “meat axe”‘ to the Public Service – 24,000 more public servants and growing!

    27. Murray Darling Basin Plan – back to the drawing board

    28. 2020 Summit – Meaningless talkfest

    29. Tax Summit – Deferred and downgraded

    30. Population Policy – Sets no targets

    31. Fuel Watch – Abandoned

    32. Grocery Choice – Abandoned

    33. $900 Stimulus cheques – Sent to dead people and overseas residents

    34. Foreign Policy – In turmoil with Rudd running riot

    35. National Schools Solar Program – Closing two years early

    36. Solar Hot Water Rebate – Abandoned

    37. Oceanic Viking – Caved in

    38. GP Super Clinics – 64 promised, only 11 operational

    39. Defence Family Healthcare Clinics – 12 promised, none delivered

    40. Trade Training Centres – 2650 promised, 70 operational

    41. Bid for UN Security Council seat – An expensive Rudd frolic

    42. My School Website – Revamped but problems continue

    43. National Curriculum – States in uproar

    44. Small Business Superannuation Clearing House – 99% of small businesses reject it

    45. Indigenous Housing Program – way behind schedule

    46. Rudd Bank – Went nowhere

    47. Using cheap Chinese fabrics for ADF uniforms – Ditched

    48. Innovation Ambassadors Program – junked

    49. Six Submarines – none operational

    50. Debt limit to be increased to $250 billion – to pay for all of the above and much more by us.

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    P. Dragone

    We give thanks that the Prime Minister Julia Gillard and her government continue to deliver programmes which benefit this country, and have the wisdom and courage to change or discontinue any which are not suitable, while facing the stones of misunderstanding and antipathy. We hope all may have such qualities and not let willful pride and fear motivate our actions. We are thankful for Your gifts. May You hold all in Your Loving Hands and forgive fear, selfishness and lack of appreciation of Your gifts.

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    Cate S

    Just had to share this – was sent from more participants of the Convoy…
    Cheers Cate :)
    This should be Very serious….but it is sooo sadly funny.

    Most people I know have no problem with understanding or categorising Labor/Green terminology.
    One word springs immediately to mind and that is BULLSHIT!
    For the layperson and for those who struggle to understand the subtleties of the language used by the Brown/Gillard Government,
    Australian Climate Madness interprets has kindly posted this interpretive presentation.
    http://www.australianclimatemadness.com/
    Fed up with the spin? Confused by the lies? You need ACM’s handy cut-out-n-keep glossary.

    Here are a selection of Labor’s climate buzzwords and phrases translated into English for the rest of us:

    Carbon : Carbon Dioxide
    Pollution : Environmentally beneficial
    500 biggest polluters : 500 most productive industries
    A carbon tax will help tackle climate change : I failed Kindergarten science!
    Green jobs: Unemployment
    There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead : Bob Brown leads the government
    Greens : Marxists
    Hottest decade on record : Hottest decade in the last 3 hundred-millionths of the planet’s lifespan
    Unprecedented : I have the memory of a goldfish!
    Wind power : An Oxymoron!
    The science is settled : Shut Up!
    The debate is over : Shut Up!
    Bob Brown : A Watermelon.
    Consensus : Don’t Mention The Science!
    Climate change is a moral issue : Don’t Mention The Science
    Green economy : The Stone Age
    We must invest in clean technologies : I own shares in the companies that manufacture them
    The Central Coast is most at risk from rising sea levels : Tanya Plibersek has lost her marbles
    China is taking action on climate : Greece is a paragon of economic integrity
    We must respect the science (© M Turnbull) : We must respect the science that fits our ideology
    80% cuts in emissions by 2050 : The lunatics have taken over the asylum
    Deniers : the Government
    Soooo very funny …but it is so very serious.
    Gillard/Brown …..they really are a sad joke!
    Best regards
    Aussie Pete

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    Bush bunny

    While talking to friends today about the carbon tax etc., etc., two rather
    heavy young ladies skipped by us wearing green tee shirts wearing ‘Don’t feed the plants!’

    Anyway the yanks are giving us some notice, received from Anthony Watts site WUWT the following ‘Friday Funny’.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/05/australian-government-prepares-for-massive-climate-disruption/#com

    Pass it around eh? I remember ‘When World’s Collide’ saw it when I was a kid. Fairly good sci fi flick for its day. Although Bob’s announcement about the dangerous retrovirus etc., don’t know when that was mentioned? Coming from an open gay MP somehow seems a little non
    PC.

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    Rob Moore

    The Prime Minister of Australia.

    The Hon Julia Gillard MP

    Parliament House

    Canberra

    Australian Capital Territory 2600

    Australia.

    Dear Prime Minister.

    I have lost my land at Saarahnlee as a result of Commonwealth and State laws unreasonably restricting my use of that land so that the Commonwealth could harvest the carbon from the vegetation and vast forests on the property.

    You may recall the letter sent to your Government regarding this injustice at the time of the Copenhagen IPCC meeting at the end of November 2009. The letter addressed to The Hon Kevin Rudd the then Prime Minister, was sent just prior to my protest regarding the injustice against me and thousands of farmers – this matter has still not been addressed. See a copy of my letter. Annexure A.

    Unfortunately I received no satisfactory response to this appeal from your predecessor in particular or the Commonwealth Government. Annexure B page 6.

    According to public reports, planned Bills and Bills passed – now Acts and Bills on the floor of the House, which I have seen, it appears that your Governments action will result in laws which will enable the trading of Carbon Certificates which will result in the loss of any possibility of the recovery of payments due me and is in my case argued, not the Commonwealth’s property to trade.

    The carbon referred to is included in the carbon accounts to the UNFCC to enable the Australian Government to meet its International Treaty obligations and it is alleged, these accounts include my carbon. The Court has said in regard to this claimed property, that I have an arguable case.

    This letter is to request your assurance that your Governments current actions will cease so that legislatively no trading in Carbon Certificates can be legitimised that would enable trading of any kind or the transferring of Carbon Certificates or carbon as property, by any means whatsoever, until the Court has finalised their deliberations on the matter.

    Subsequently this will ensure my property is not compromised until the Court has handed down its decision.

    In the event I do not receive these assurances within 7 days, I will take what steps are necessary to prevent further erosion of my rights pending final hearing regarding my property.

    Yours faithfully

    Peter Spencer

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    Bob Malloy

    What sort of Shite would give Peter Spencers letter to mthe PM a thumbs down, Low life is all I can say.

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    Bob Malloy

    A whole lot of shite as decended on the site.

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    Joe V.

    Well spotted there Bunny. on the Gillard Climate Disruption video @797 .

    There was a time when pol liies would have waited, till they’d failed, before resorting to shock, horror video nasties for a living- but this lot are still running the country.
    Isn’t that the real horror ?

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    Rob Moore

    19% of Native Vegetation on Private land has been sterilized in order to satisfy the -under 108% next year on the 1990 levels. The minor detail is that “Just Terms” weren’t paid and if the Feds hadn’t stolen the credits they will be up for MASSIVE fines next year due to Rudd signing KYOTO in 2008.

    If the B/wanksters get there bills through the senate in the next three weeks – Turnbull and all his mates will be trading AIR on July 1st next year.

    This gives OUR CONVOY a whole new meaning and sense of urgency!!

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    Joe V.

    Bob @ 800:

    A whole lot of shite as decended on the site.


    We’ve an aspiring poet in our midst I see. :-)

    It’s a sign of the effect you’re having and how seriously you’re being taken ‘though.

    Hasn’t the GetUp site been rather quiet of late ?

    Since Monckton wiped the floor in front of them at the Canberra Press Club.

    An bunch of pussycats.
    Something to keep the kids amused but not-so-useful idiots.

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    matilda

    A NOTE TO CATE S. I concur with Ian @791. Please be aware. Do not let anyone near the trucks etc. especially on overnight stops. Another tactic they might use (local councils etc.) is to contact those allowing the convoy to stop for the nights. They use threatening mantras to anyone in the firing line. You might remember that they attacked Lord Monckton. They bombarded all the speaking venues Lord Monckton was to speak at. You might remember the Broncos Club in Brisbane caving into “members demands”. The Bronchos got about 100 emails, over about 2 days, repeating the same mantra. Broncos caved and getup got their way. This was repeated time and time again – with about 10 venues pulling their venues. Have a backup plan if camp grounds suddenly become not available. Make sure you have enough food and water, etc. Maybe think of security?? Greens/Getup are across this and are watching/posting on any and all blogs regarding the convoy. I have clicked on the threads on the just grounds media contact links and the comments and attacks on our farmers are disgraceful. The attacks on Sarah Hendersons daughter was cruel and aimed at upsetting – although I’m hoping it has been pulled as I went looking for it and could not find it. I have linked both JoNova’s thread on the convoy and also the Justgroundscommunity on both Pier Akerman and Andrew Bolts blogs. Both are heavily supported and a quick cooeee will see bloggers coming to counteract what getup/greens are sprouting. A wander (if you dare) onto The Punch is like being on another planet. Best not to go there, but if you want to see the mindset of these individuals it will only strengthen your resolve. These green/getup followers have been emailed followers enmass to create havoc. They were behind the many attacks on Lord Monckton; the live cattle exports; the no carbon tax rallys; Alan Jones – 2GB – and now they are turning their attention to the Convoy. They are ruthless and will stop at nothing to upset/smear/slander etc. and their tactics is to hit hard and run. They are cowards as they use psychology and mental games to disarm their targets. They portray their targets as being unschooled, of low intelligence, etc. They are heavily funded by the unions and their website states they have $5million in cash at their disposal. They are linked to another organisation called moveon.org in the USA and use the same tactics there. Most getup members are either at uni or still at school, but don’t forget that for many years school children have been indoctrinated with green agendas so they feel virtuous/righteous belonging to an organisation that”cares” about them (and the environment). Unfortunately, they are only used and abused. The environment is but a shopfront, what goes on behind the closed doors is quite frightening. Try and unsubscribe to their membership and its near impossible. Their website states there are 500,000 members, but these figures are padded due to those “passing by” or completing a poll on the site. Once they have your email, you will be bombarded with emails asking you to get involved, and in this instance, will join other getup members in an all out bombardment of emails/phone calls/letters aimed solely with those that are involved in the convoy, beginning at the top, then working thru the blogs and abusing those feeling positive about the convoy. These tactics are so unAustralian. It is the opposite of what we know of as being Aussies. Its trashing our democracy. Its trampling those that are opposed to this carbon tax, that have a different opinion, but more than anything we have those in OUR PARLIAMENT that are socialists. It was vladamir lenin that said……the goal of socialism is communism. But, but, what they have not realised is that within every dinky di Aussie is the ANZAC SPIRIT. Its being awakened and we will be pushed only so far. Time to take our wonderful country back before the very thought of organising such an event is only whispered about behind closed doors.

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    Ben

    Joe V. @ 803

    Since Monckton wiped the floor in front of them at the Canberra Press Club.

    Are you kidding?

    matilda @ 804
    Apart from the fact your rant displays a large dose of paranoia, have you ever learnt about paragraphs?

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    matilda

    Well benny boy, let those on this site see the gov paid economist debate with Lord Christopher Monckton for themselves. Link here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma6cnPLcrtA

    And, also PROVE each of my points that I’m wrong. Time to take our country back Aussies!!!

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    Ben

    matilda @ 807
    If you think the charlatan Monkton won that your judgement is severely clouded.

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    Cate S

    Matilda @ 804
    This Convoy has reiterated time and time again, the word peaceful. All political persuasions are invited to join, this is about ALL Federal MP’s policies in essence – this Convoy/s is a peaceful coming together of Australians, and is being watched by not only Australian Press, but international press as well.
    If i was told that i only had one chance to do something meaningful in my life, and the choice of helping in the Convoy was one of them, i would do it again in a heartbeat.
    Good Australian families, everyday people from all industries, from all walks of life are participating in these gatherings.
    These Convoys have now a festival atmosphere of hope with them.
    The journey of travelling to Canberra, a uniting of people is such a wonderful, inspirational event to witness, to be part of – words cant bring good people down – the people have been given a voice – and it is their OWN voice – they have found it again.
    Any government that chooses to ignore it – will be sorely judged by the history pages of Australia.
    There has already been tricking of nasty emails – the “delete” button is wonderful! :)
    There has already been “
    oh, yes, we must have doubled booked that area, I am sorry, the convoy will have to travel another 200+ kilometres..
    Who is responsible…I dont know, and I dont care – because good people will always find a way to go forward.
    In regard to safety, the Australian Federal Police are aware of EVERYTHING – and in them we place the safety of our convoys, our precious cargo – Australian people, democracy and peaceful Convoy’s continued success – and return home for all participants.

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    Maxine

    Let us see some real govt stuff ups:

    1. GST, supposed to simply tax law, doubled the size of the Tax Act

    2. $1.2Bn wasted on the Pacific Solution. Cruel treatment of desperate people, waste of money, only fooled those like the silly Convoy of No Hopers.

    3. Betrayal of our soldiers by buying a heap of the Abrams main battle tank. Cost a mozza, we don’t have planes big enough to carry them and likewise a LOT of our bridges can’t support their huge weight and in any case as it is a main battle tank it would be useless against lodgements of enemy forces on our N, NW or W Coasts. All it does, is allow our armor brigade to be embedded with yank armored divisions in some continental landmass—Viet Nam all over again.

    4. Allowed, even encouraged a mad borrow-spend boom from which we are now trying to recover from. Meantime the Labor govt saved your sorry arses during the GFC. It wasn’t China carried us, if you can remember, commodities prices tumbled, volumes of ores shipped tumbled and tens of thousands of mine workers were sacked. Without the prompt, correct action we would be having 9% unemployment like the yanks and once an economy has receded and unemployment has soared it takes years for the economy and employment to recover.

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    matilda

    Oh and while we are at the National Press Club, maybe those on this site would also like to hear/see Vaclav Klaus , President of the Czech Republic. It would seem that The Pope and Obama can meet him, but the selected Prime Minister of this country refused to meet with him. We might ask “why?” The President spend 40 years under communism. He spoke to those assembled that he recognises the same tactics/indicators in our green labor government today – that he spent 40 years living thru. Today, he relishes democracy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idKceFvO7AM

    Oh, pray tell why ben that if she could not meet with the President of a democratic country, but she chose to wish the hard left socialist party of Canada a happy 50th birthday? And worse still, she wished this socialist party happy birthday of behalf of ALL AUSTRALIANS??

    http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/mirandadevine/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/what_was_she_thinking/

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    Ben

    I can’t imagine anyone being bothered with trying to cause the convoy of the deranged and deluded any grief.

    The convoy will convey a message alright, but not the one you apparently think it will.

    It will put on full display a ‘Tea Party’ type movement and the majority of rational Australians will look on askance.

    Go ahead… make my day :lol:

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    Ben

    matilda @ 811
    Vaclav Klaus is a man of remarkable ideological flexibility. From working for the Communist secret police he has now gone over to the hard right and mouthing all their conspiracy theories. I personally wouldn’t give him the time of day.

    Canada’s NDP is similar to the ALP in it’s ideology. It holds 103 seats in the Canadian House of Commons and shares the same international affiliations as the ALP. Why should the parties not exchange greetings?

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    matilda

    Cate S …thankyou. I have stewed over this for many days now – and I tried many times to put my worries on paper. I could cry with relief! I will now enjoy the excitement and applaud loudly as the Convoys all come together! I live on the far south coast of NSW and I can’t see if there is convoy coming past me, but I shall drive toward Canberra and cheer on the Convoy as it goes by. I shall be in Canberra the week before for the Election Now rally. For the first time in 4 years I feel encouraged and heartened by what is happening for all Australians. Once again Cate, thankyou.

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    Cate S

    Ben @ 812
    Why do you keep mentioning the “Tea Party”? I am wondering it you have not had to much tea yourself?
    NRFA is NOT the “Tea Party”…nor am I – so what the heck are you on about?

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    Ben

    Cate S

    Why do you keep mentioning the “Tea Party”? I am wondering it you have not had to much tea yourself?
    NRFA is NOT the “Tea Party”…nor am I – so what the heck are you on about?

    I don’t understand why you are puzzled. The folks you are mixed up with are exhibiting the same irrationality as the Tea Party in the US and it seems you have a few “Tea Party” types form the US posting in support.

    Lie down with dogs and you get fleas.

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    Ben

    matilda @ 816
    Let me try to spare you some anguish.

    There was an election last year and the next is scheduled for late 2013.

    Get used to it. Get on with your life. Get over then negativism.

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    Cate S

    Ben @ 818
    Mate seriously, not cool. So you are branding all participants with one brush who are taking part in the Convoy?
    The convoy is symbolic of a coming together from all political persuasions – that people just want to be heard, and listened to.
    Of course, there will always be those whom i dont agree with, or you – but that is life in general – but to suggest “Lie down with dogs and you get fleas.”…all i can say is your kidding..i hope.
    Why dont you come and join in as well? You are welcome – :)

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    Ben

    Cate S

    The convoy is symbolic of a coming together from all political persuasions – that people just want to be heard, and listened to.

    Yep sure.

    It is transparently an attack on a government that is performing well in difficult circumstances.

    This article is pretty much on the mark: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/austrsalian-economy-is-far-from-a-spent-force/story-fn56baaq-1226109422776

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    Cate S

    Ben @ 821
    Okay I read the link. Thank you. Do you not see for every person who agrees with you, there are equal amount of people disagreeing with you?
    Herein is the instability of the country – not just one issue Ben, there are so many issues that people are concerned about – if a simple convoy /s can and is bringing together people from ALL political persuasions who are not satisfied with the present government Ben, what does that tell “us”…the country is split – and that is another big issue..that is why so many are joining the Convoy as well…so many different reasons…no one can label this Convoy one way or the other …except giving a voice for everyday people – hope to be heard :)

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    Ben

    Cate S @ 822
    [if a simple convoy /s can and is bringing together people from ALL political persuasions who are not satisfied with the present government Ben, what does that tell “us”]
    Absolute nonsense.

    Straight out astroturfing and I doubt any ALP supporter would wish to be associate with such a rancid rabble.

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    Cate S

    Ben @ 823
    Mate a plane load of 9 labour supporters (as you named the political party) have registered that they are going to Canberra, and have booked their accommodation. That is just one very small example as i registered them today.
    Ben – please, this is not a convoy of division – this really is a uniting convoy…nothing more…to let people be heard, and seen with all their individual issues – from whatever political party that they support – to raise the issues on what they as the voter, want to see improved in the party of their choice.
    Do you not wish to see policies in your preferred party improved? I am sure you do – we all do…

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    Ben

    Cate S @ 824

    I am doubled up laughing.

    Such labor supporters would be of the same pedigree as messrs Pat Field and Mal Colston.

    this is not a convoy of division – this really is a uniting convoy…nothing more…to let people be heard, and seen with all their individual issues – from whatever political party that they support – to raise the issues on what they as the voter, want to see improved in the party of their choice.

    Oh really Cate, I didn’t come down in the last shower.

    It is a straight out attempt to create mass negativism and an appearance of widespread discontent with the Federal Govt. A Govt that has performed amazingly well in very adverse circumstances – a GFC and now possibly a second occurring.

    Just a pack of whingers about imaginary grievances.

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    Ian Hill

    Ben @ 812

    I can’t imagine anyone being bothered with trying to cause the convoy of the deranged and deluded any grief.

    I attended both the Getup Yes Rally and the Monckton talk in Adelaide. The average life expectancy of the Monckton audience is in the range of 20-30 more years only. The collective wisdom of this group is enormous. They are not deranged and deluded. They know a scam when they see one and they appreciate someone of Monckton’s outstanding ability as an orator standing up and “socking it to ‘em”. These people are angry that their freedom is about to be stomped on by an overwhelming bureaucracy with powers to intrude into everyday lives that will make the national census look like a kindergarten skirmish.

    This contrasts with the average life expectancy of the Getup Yes Rally of 40-50 more years (not including their children) who hung on every word of speakers whose sole aim was to utter the words “carbon pollution” as freqently as possible and who actually expected their combined Australia-wide audience of, well let’s be generous and use the 45,000 quoted in the media, to deliver their propaganda flyer to one million households. I doubt whether one thousand households actually received it! I never got one in my letterbox and I don’t know anyone who did.

    One thing about this convoy. For every vehicle taking part there will be a hundred which would have taken part if circumstances or logistics allowed it. There’s no doubt about that.

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    P. Dragone

    Howdy everyone on this fine weekend.
    So which country has a AAA rating and an ALP government to thank for it, along with the absence of any political clout on the part of the Tea-party fruitcakes who have chopped off one of the As of the USA’s rating for the first time in its history?

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    Joe V.

    Ben @ 806:

    Mate,

    Monckton wiped the floor in front of them at the Canberra Press Club.

    Did, you see those questions from the floor , from that GetUp stacked audience ?
    They turned into such a bunch of shrinking violets.

    What a disappointment, and after Monckton being made to believe he was going up against a Goliath, with just his handkerchief & a stone.

    Mind you, you’ve got to admire that Denniss bloke for trying and for behaving so graciously. What a sport,
    but the poor bloke didn’t stand a chance.

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    P. Dragone

    Ian @ 826
    Well, that was a lot of guesstimate.

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    P. Dragone

    I would have dropped by earlier, but I was growing my own tofu.

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    Cate S

    Ben @ 825
    Nice try with the “strawman” tactics back at you mate :)
    At the end of the day, it matters not to me if you choose to join or not – it matters not to me your attempts at ridicule either – and I am sure it goes both ways too mate.
    I will back the Convoys – and their individual participants – I am the one liaising with people joining- i have nothing to fear, hide or gain about the participants political persuasions.
    Facts are facts – and you will soon see that your written words will come back and embarrass you.
    Goodnight Ben…just think about what is written hey?

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    Ben

    Joe V. @ 828

    Did, you see those questions from the floor , from that GetUp stacked audience ?
    They turned into such a bunch of shrinking violets.

    Damn Joe, you sprung us…. GetUp has stacked out the Press Club membership!

    You are surely not serious? Get a grip on reality Joe.

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    Ben

    Cate @ 831

    it matters not to me your attempts at ridicule either – and I am sure it goes both ways too mate.

    Cate, I can assure you it is totally unnecessary for anyone to attempt to ridicule the convoy. You are doing a great job yourselves and I wouldn’t want to get in your way.

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    P.
    I’m glad to know you think it was the people that believe in less spending that are responsible for a lowering of the credit rating in the US. It seems a bit illogical doesn’t it? It couldn’t possibly be the tax, spend, and print money people that are causing the problem. No, it must be the only people in the world trying to fix the problem that are causing it.
    Perhaps Julia and other government and RBA people are worried they won’t get any more free money before the next election.

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    Ben

    Matt @ 834
    So you failed Economics 101?

    When an economy is entering a recession due to insufficient spending by business and consumers it is a proper role for govt to run a deficit and maintain the level of economic activity.

    The trouble is, the previous President of the US slashed taxes for the rich and embarked on very costly military adventures, running up a huge deficit. Obama has been locked into those wars and has been unable to raise revenue.

    Smart move by the “Tea Party” Republicans.

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    P. Dragone

    Matt,
    I hope the Mrs handles all the money in your household.

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    P. Dragone

    Ben,
    It was a very smart move by the Tea Party fruitcakes who would rather wreck their own economy than have a ‘beyond the pale’ President in for a second term.

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    Projectenfour

    Political history. Does anybody else rememeber the DLP (Democratic Labor Party) … they split from the Labor Party because of communist/socialist influences and did a good job of holding back the rabble for several years. Where are they now when we need them?

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    Ben

    P. Dragone @ 837

    Yes, and you can see the same ‘wrecker’ tactics at work here.

    Remember all the whingers who carried on about the ‘flood levy’ to assist pay for the reconstruction after the Qld, Vic and other floods? I wonder how many are involved in the convoy with their anti-tax bleats. Such folks don’t want to contribute to help fellow Australians but they are the first to rabbit on about ‘ANZAC spirit’ and the like. Who was it that said “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”?

    With that I must say good-night.

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    Ben

    Projectenfour @ 848

    Political history. Does anybody else rememeber the DLP (Democratic Labor Party) … they split from the Labor Party because of communist/socialist influences and did a good job of holding back the rabble for several years. Where are they now when we need them?

    Dunno. Leading the convoy perhaps?

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    p,
    “the Mrs.” doesn’t think any differently than I do. We both understand that government stimulating an economy is like a man attempting to lift a bucket while standing in it. They can’t possibly hold it up very long.

    Keynesianism doesn’t really qualify as economics as far as I am concerned. It has failed miserably each and every time it has been implemented.

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    Wendy

    Ben @ various & PDragone @ various:
    You both have a fascination with the US Tea Party, don’t you.
    Most people understand that the US isn’t Australia and Australia isn’t the US.
    Still, this thread is about the CONVOY and not the Tea Party. Thought you might appreciate that clarification. ;-)

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    P. Dragone

    Ian @ 826
    I was looking for the research which I know is out there somewhere that shows a larger figure for climate change rejection in the younger age group than middle-aged people, but that the figure drops as the rate of information technology use rises, and education level rises.

    (I suppose if other people here can post un-substantiated guesstimates, I can relax the standards a bit, and discuss it anyway.)

    What that indicates is that as young people access and evaluate new information they are more likely to change their minds than try to change the meaning of the information or reject it completely.
    The information is shaping their world view.

    That does not mean that all older people reject AGW, because you will find many older people who want action on AGW, and support pricing carbon.

    However, what I do see in your example is a story of a lot of older people either rejecting information or trying to re-interpret it to support their current views. Their world view is shaping the information.

    This indicates that it is a matter of how the information is handled, rather than its veracity.

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    Wendy

    Cate,
    Keep the updates coming! We are looking forward to seeing video of the Convoy!

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    P. Dragone

    Most people understand that the US isn’t Australia and Australia isn’t the US.

    Didn’t you leave off one word, ‘yet’?

    As the conservative parties in Australia have been sitting at the feet of the far-right in the USA and importing their tactics, which Tony Abbott has been following lock-step. We are one Tony Abbott administration away from the the current USA social and financial mess.

    It is a damned shame, because those fruitcakes have ruined a great nation, and our own once-great Liberal Party is being dragged into the morass by our own ultra-right wing nutters. Robert Menzies must be spinning in his grave. He wouldn’t pee on Abbott if Tony was…well you know the rest.

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    P. Dragone

    Ben,

    Does anybody else rememeber the DLP (Democratic Labor Party)… Where are they now when we need them?

    Dunno. Leading the convoy perhaps?

    No, Ben, they are doing what they always did, pushing the drinks trolley.

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    P. Dragone

    Matt,
    I will let you into a little secret. A woman tells a man what he wants to hear and does what she wants to anyway.

    A man who thinks he knows what his wife thinks is not as smart as he thinks is.

    If Mrs Matt actually agrees with you, I hope you both have a good accountant.

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    Bush bunny

    Good skit mates.

    http;//wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/05/australian.government-prepares-for-massive-climate-disruption/#com

    And if you follow on that link. Check out ‘Julia Gillard -Why Did You Lie? Adam Bandt answers. This link seems to go on and off. But try
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSilyIcDgwg

    However, Just Google – Julia Gillard – Why Did you Lie? Adam Bant answers. He spouts at the end of the segment ‘ We were asked to form a government and we said we would if the climate change or tax was involved.

    Nite folks.

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    Ian Hill

    P. Dragone @ 793. If the numbers are so “beautiful” then why is Gillard hell-bent on fixing what ain’t broken?

    P. Dragone @ 829. Hardly a guess. It’s fairly easy to look around and judge the average age of a group of people.

    P. Dragone @ 843. I can’t see where I translated that to the population in general. Just a comment on those in attendance at the two events.

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    Arno Arrak

    Watch out for road blocks. I wouldn’t put it past the greenies to attempt that.

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    Roy Hogue

    Forgive an outsider for commenting. But if Ben only knew what he was talking about he might make sense. There always seems to be someone who thinks you can tax your way out of economic trouble.

    I’ll choose to learn from history instead of theory any day.

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    Maxine

    Swiss glaciers ‘in full retreat’
    One assessment found that some 10 cubic km of ice have been lost from 1,500 glaciers over the past nine years.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7770472.stm

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    BobC

    P. Dragone (@843):
    August 7th, 2011 at 12:17 am
    Ian @ 826
    I was looking for the research which I know is out there somewhere that shows a larger figure for climate change rejection in the younger age group than middle-aged people, but that the figure drops as the rate of information technology use rises, and education level rises.

    I’m not aware of any studies like that, but Chris Mooney reviewed a Yale study in DeSmogBlog recently that found that:

    knowing more about science, and being better at mathematical reasoning, was related to more climate science skepticism and denial–rather than less.

    Not exactly what you were looking for, I suppose.

    About the phrase “climate change rejection”: I don’t know anyone who rejects the fact that the climate changes. The people who come closest seem to be those who believe that Michael Mann’s “hockey stick” historical temperature graph is correct — those people reject that the climate changed anytime in the last 1000 years except for the last 70 or so. Perhaps you meant to say something else?

    However, what I do see in your example is a story of a lot of older people either rejecting information or trying to re-interpret it to support their current views. Their world view is shaping the information.

    This indicates that it is a matter of how the information is handled, rather than its veracity.

    Call me naive, but I would like to believe that the veracity of the information is the most important characteristic about it.

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    BobC

    P. Dragone (@780):
    August 5th, 2011 at 6:59 pm

    Notably, the researchers say that CWMs also tended to assert a stronger understanding of global warming than other adults – and those who said they understood it best were the most likely to be the strongest deniers. “This, of course, seems an untenable self-assessment,” the authors write, “given that conservative white males are more likely than are other adults to reject the current scientific consensus.

    Pretty sweet to get an opinion poll accepted as a “research paper”. Too bad they didn’t do a thorough job, however. Even a casual reader can’t help but wonder why they didn’t also ask respondents about their level of education and work history in science and math related fields. I’m guessing that they didn’t want to risk finding out that the self-assessments weren’t so “untenable” after all.

    (More detailed critique in post #720.)

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    Wendy

    @ Maxine:
    August 7th, 2011 at 9:06 am
    Data on only 30 glaciers out of 1500 and that supposedly means something?
    so how do you explain this then?
    http://socyberty.com/history/in-glacier-found-the-body-of-ancient-man/

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    Kneel 8250

    853Maxine:
    August 7th, 2011 at 9:06 am

    Swiss glaciers ‘in full retreat’
    One assessment found that some 10 cubic km of ice have been lost from 1,500 glaciers over the past nine years.

    Article is from 2008 and covers the years 1999 to 2007. 2003 was the hottest year in that period. 7 years of data and a computer projection is hardly Climate science and fact.

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    Kneel 8250

    9 days till the convoy leaves Port Hedland.

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    Ben wrote this at post # 835:

    So you failed Economics 101?

    When an economy is entering a recession due to insufficient spending by business and consumers it is a proper role for govt to run a deficit and maintain the level of economic activity.

    The trouble is, the previous President of the US slashed taxes for the rich and embarked on very costly military adventures, running up a huge deficit. Obama has been locked into those wars and has been unable to raise revenue.

    Smart move by the “Tea Party” Republicans.

    Recessions are primarily caused by government interference.Governments does NOT create economic activity.Businesses does that and the consumers too.Who buys from them.

    The “previous president” cut taxes ACROSS THE BOARD.

    The “previous president” started the Iraq war and continued the other one.”current president” Obama continued the main policies of the “previous president”.He can change that anytime.He is NOT being locked into those wars.He CHOSE to continue and even expand them.He is now embarking on a strategy of slow withdrawal.

    The real problem is excessive spending.Even if you erased all of the tax cuts back to 2003.There will still be a 1 Trillion dollar debt.

    Overspending is the real problem.Has been for decades,but accelerated in the 1980′s.Mainly due to growing entitlement programs,interest payments and the military expansion.

    You seem determined to post misleading stuff.

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    Maxine

    Wendy,

    The bloke got shot and fell on the glacier 5000 years ago? I have no idea why you ask me this crap.

    All except a handful of glaciers (which benefit from AGW changes to air moisture and windflow) are retreating, from Greenland to antarctica.

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    Maxine

    Wendy,

    The bloke got shot and fell on the glacier 5000 years ago? I have no idea why you ask me this crap.

    All except a handful of glaciers (which benefit from AGW changes to air moisture and windflow) are retreating, from Greenland to antarctica.

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    Maxine

    Oops, sorry for double post.

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    Wendy

    Maxine:
    August 7th, 2011 at 11:58 am

    obviously logic is not one of your strong suites.

    For the man to have been encased in ice 5000 years ago the level of the glacier must have been less than the current levels today.

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    Maxine

    tommy @859

    What rot. Yes, business creates wealth and jobs but periodically business gets really enthusiastic and gungho and bubbles are created, grow—and pop. When a bubble pops wealth is destroyed and debts litter the countryside. People stop spending in such numbers that businesses start firing stuff, quite a few go broke—so people start saving even more.

    The increase in dole payments and decrease in tax revenues creates govt deficits.

    Now, if the govt were to cut spending too—well, the last time it happened in the 1930s it took WW2 to end the Great Depression. Instead the rational thing to do is for the government to start spending on capital works programs to create employment so those formerly unemployed have money to spend and so keep business going.

    In 2008 the Rudd govt saw the GFC developing and were ready when it did hit and the $900 cheques to those on low income (no discretionary income so these people spent their cheques) the BER and the HIP and the like were rolled out so fast, along with frequent rate cuts by the RBA that we suffered just 1 quarter of negative GDP growth, a maximum unemployment figure of 5.8% (maybe 5.9, can’t recall off the top of my head) and are now on 4.9% unemployment.

    The spend on stimulus programs was about $40Bn and by now $20-25Bn would have been recouped as tax, income and companies tax, GST etc.

    Now with the US being downgraded and the Repugs’ insistence on spending cuts plus the troubles in the Eurozone will likely see another Long Depression like the 1930s. If we were to cut instead of increasing govt expenditure we would join the rest of the world—that happened in the 1930s under the idiotic Premiers’ Plan and we had the worst and deepest Depression of all.

    A govt’s Budget is not like a household Budget at all. For one thing it can have major effects, reduce or markedly boost unemployment. Money taken in in a surplus year is not put in a piggybank, a surplus or deficit is just a number reflecting the flow at that period (financial year) in time.

    The private sector normally cannot run a surplus if the Budget is in surplus so when recession hits the Budget must go into deficit.

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    Ben

    Wendy @ 863

    Do you have the least clue about what a glacier is and how it works?

    That hunter would have died and been covered by snow. Glaciers are built up by snow falling and maybe other forms of precipitation too. A glacier slowly ‘flows’ down the mountain until the point where it melts and pieces break off.

    That glacier would have moved, carrying the frozen body until it reached a point where through melting or collapse, the body became visible. All of which says nothing about ‘retreat’ of glaciers.

    What measures the ‘retreat’ of glaciers is the point at which the frozen glacier ends, and as average temperatures increase, this will be progressively further up the mountain.

    So 10 cubic Km of ice has disappeared according to the article Maxine linked to. That indicates glacier retreat to me.

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    Maxine

    Some, most, of the water from the retreating glaciers will have flowed into the sea, acting to raise sea levels.

    As well global warming our “harmless plant food” is acidifying the oceans and krill and the like are increasingly finding it harder and harder to form their exoskeletons.

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    Wendy

    Ben:
    August 7th, 2011 at 12:26 pm

    5000 years of accumulation of snow and ice before the “iceman” re-emerges. ;-)
    modelling does not equal real data.
    if only people would actually read the articles they link.

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    Maxine

    Wendy at 863

    What an extra-ordinary statement! Our prehistoric stiff must have bene up in the mountains, maybe using a mountain pass to enter the territory of some other, hostile tribe and when shot could have fallen down a ravine and so ended up in a glacier. Glacier moves slowly (glacially even :) ) until it reaches a point sufficiently down the mountain so that the warmer air there melts the glacier and the body was revealed.

    Or did you think the glacier swallowed the still, moved uphill or something?

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    Wendy

    back to discussions of the Convoy…….

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    Maxine

    woops, swallowed the stiff. Senior moment or something.

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    Maxine

    Wendy at 867

    That is how slowly glaciers move. Like molasses in January are fast compared to glaciers

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    Wendy

    Maxine….quit while you’re behind.

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    Maxine @860:

    All except a handful of glaciers (which benefit from AGW changes to air moisture and windflow) are retreating, from Greenland to antarctica.

    Two things: 1. Show me your data (comparing apples to apples, not wintertime maximum ice cover to summertime minimum ice cover); and

    2. If we have GLOBAL warming, how could some glaciers in Antarctica, for example, benefit from AGW while others don’t?

    The alarmists love to baffle people with BS, but the people’s BS detectors have finally kicked in. Sorry, you guys are losing. Big time.

    Yeah, we got a great big convoy, rolling through the bush! Hey, we gotta great big convoy, you can’t make us shush. Convoy!

    I’m having a great time! (Nothing to lose…drives the dark greens mad!)

    Cheers,
    Janet

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    Wendy

    Go Janet Go!!!!!!!!!

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    Ben

    Wendy, your posts about the ‘Iceman’ and glaciers just make no sense.

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    Oh, Dear, Sweet Maxine. You’ve revealed that you are not Down Under, as molasses doesn’t have any trouble moving in January down here! LOL!

    As for your

    Some, most, of the water from the retreating glaciers will have flowed into the sea, acting to raise sea levels.

    As well global warming our “harmless plant food” is acidifying the oceans and krill and the like are increasingly finding it harder and harder to form their exoskeletons.

    Well, once again, two comments/questions:

    1. If you can show me any signs of acidification of the oceans, I’ll start worshipping you and sacrifice all the people closest to me, starting with my children. (You’ve been listening to Steven Schneider too much, and you know he stated unequivocally that it’s okay to lie for your cause!); and

    2. What kind of dope are you smokin?

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    Ben

    Janet @ 876

    1. If you can show me any signs of acidification of the oceans, I’ll start worshipping you and sacrifice all the people closest to me, starting with my children. (You’ve been listening to Steven Schneider too much, and you know he stated unequivocally that it’s okay to lie for your cause!)

    For a start, you could try this link to get a list of 24,800 articles on the topic:
    http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=ocean+acidification+data&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart
    But of course I know that no amount of reported scientific research will over come determined self delusion.

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    Maxine

    Ummmm I am from Down Under and never heard of Steven Schneider so you make as much sense as your mini-convoy of the Deluded going to present a Petition that is in completely the wrong form.

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    Maxine

    The second source I linked to explains how some glaciers can grow while AGW is causing the retreat of nearly all glaciers. No BS, but you do have to think.

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    Ben

    Janet, Wendy and others

    You might like to read some of the 38,400 articles on glacier retreat here: http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl=en&q=glacier+retreat&btnG=Search&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=&as_vis=1

    Bust I suspect you will just retreat into your agnotology.

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    Maxine

    http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/05/arctic-ice-at-record-low-for-july/

    Arctic sea ice cover for month of July. Volume (or thickness) of the ice would show similar apples v apples decline.

    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/03/worldwide-glacier-retreat/

    Glacier retreat and why there are some counter-examples.

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    Ben @ 881

    Ben,there is a chair in which Ben Chifley often sat, in Saint Christophers Cathedral,in Manuka – Canberra. If you join in with the convoy you should find time to go and see it.

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    Dave

    Ben,

    Your comment at 881 is exactly what the problem is – the CAGW is culturally ignorant and you are exhibiting all the traits.

    You might like to read some of the 38,400 articles – your agnotology

    I would recommend Kevin Moores’ advice to dilute your own baised view in cognitronics!
    Honesty is easier – Fruitloop!

    The subject of this thread is the CONVOY – you are skirting the rules (I have been banned many times) by you following the doctrine of Betancourt’s.

    agnotology works to eliminate the potential for dissent

    You are using this now!

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 884
    Thanks for that small snippet of knowledge but somehow the convoy lacks appeal to me. Could be it’s overtly anti-government meme when it is obvious to objective observers that the govt is doing very well in difficult circumstances.

    Dave @ 883
    Your agnotology extends to not being able to quote me accurately.

    Something for both Kevin and Dave – an outsiders view of the government’s economic performance http://tinyurl.com/3max9ho

    So the convoy of the deranged and deluded wants to usurp democratic process and remove a government which is serving Australia well. Count me out.

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    Maxine

    Australia is tailor made for nuclear power, including having stable cratonised rock shield over much of SA and WA. Cooling water—we are girt by sea I believe, pretty much unlimited water for cooling. We could even pipe the heated cooling water to salt lakes to evaporate—no worry about radioactive water in the sea etc.

    Gen 4 plant, perhaps a thorium reactor could really generate a LOT of power. Coal sucks in so many ways even without worrying about the very real AGW aspects.

    Yes Germany might be closing a heap of power stations—bet they are Ge 1 or 2, ready to build more modern reactors in a few years.

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    Dave

    Ben above @ 886

    So the convoy is deranged and deluded

    Accuracy is something you should seriously consider as a sideline to your agnotological point of view. So all involved in this “Convoy of No Confidence” are as you say above?

    Are you all THERE Ben?????? Hello???? BETANCOURT????

    The convoy will not usurp the democratic process or remove a government! Words of a cognitronicive!

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    Ben

    Dave @ 888

    Given the stated purpose of the convoy is to demand an election on some spurious basis that the government is in some way illegitimate or incompetent, then I would say it’s supporters justify the description of ‘deranged or deluded’.

    Certainly the opposition, shock jocks and some vested interests have worked had to create the meme of incompetence, but when examined most of their claims just don’t hold water.

    Shouting something loudly and often doesn’t make it true.

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    Dave

    Ben,

    Freedom of speech is oppressed by your very thinking as indicated in your reply above – you are the perfect example of agnotological behaviour. And yet you are blind to it!

    Shouting something loudly and often doesn’t make it true

    The Science is settled

    And yet poor Ben – you can’t see the similarity?
    P.S. Your spelling is shocking Ben!

    GOODBYE

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    Ben

    Dave @ 890
    You appear to have discovered some big words which you don’t understand and misuse.

    You also seem to want to attribute to me things I have not said such as “The science is settled”.

    Science is never settled. A scientific hypothesis stands until it is falsified by new or better evidence but so far the weight of evidence supports AGW being caused by CO2 and other GHG.

    That being so, it is prudent to act accordingly as the costs are not extreme, but the possible consequences of not acting are predicted to be extreme. That is an issue of ‘risk management’.

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    Ben @ 891

    Ben, What is the threshold of probability at which danger is deemed to justify action?

    Should we always take steps to avert every conceivable threat, no matter how unlikely it is to occur?

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 892

    Ben, What is the threshold of probability at which danger is deemed to justify action?

    Should we always take steps to avert every conceivable threat, no matter how unlikely it is to occur?

    Kevin, that is a great question.
    If you possibly can, have a look as AS4360, the Australian Standard for Risk Management.
    The basic approach followed is to look at 2 dimensions of risk, likelihood and consequences.
    From this, risks can be ranked in order of priority using a tool in the standard.

    If something is almost certain to happen but the consequences are minor then it does not rate a high priority and we may even choose to ignore it.

    But if a risk is quite unlikely, but has extreme consequences then it should be accorded a high priority and action taken to mitigate the risk.

    So as far as AGW goes, given the weight of scientific opinion, it would have to be rated as at least a significant likelihood. But the consequences of significant global warning are catastrophic so it would have to rate a high priority according to risk management standards. Mitigation should be mandatory.

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    Ben @ 889

    Are politicians, the people who asked the electors to give them the privilege of being their representative, the electors servant or their master?

    If a servant treats their master with contempt it is in the right of the master to get rid of that servant.

    The servant, by making treaties with other governments has treated the Constitution and people of Australia with contempt, ceding sovereignty of the nation to another government.

    So it would be a bit rich for the servant to argue on Constitutional grounds that the convoy have no right to demand another election.

    Or are elected dictatorships your preferred type of government?

    What do you think?

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    Ben @ 893

    But the science is not settled.

    The evidentiary requirements for assessing a future risk have not been met.

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    Roy Hogue

    Ben @889,

    Shouting something loudly and often doesn’t make it true.

    Unfortunately if you say something with any kind of conviction about it in your presentation and if you just do that repeatedly for a while, then it does “come true”. Even people who know from good solid evidence or experience that you’re wrong will begin to question what they believe. And then you have them.

    If there’s some part of the truth in what you say then so much the easier to convince.

    Ben hides behind

    AS4360, the Australian Standard for Risk Management

    like a true bureaucrat. There’s the rule and thinking is supposed to stop there. Others hide behind, “Everyone knows…” as they shout class warfare bigotry and worse.

    “Green, evil CO2, must save the planet — these have been shouted until they’ve become part of world culture. It was almost all hot air. But it came true.

    Unfortunately Ben, these people aren’t buying anymore. These are every day working men and women living on Side Street, Every City, Australia. You’ve never heard of most of them before. But now, there they are in front of you. And they’ve awakened! They see the glaring difference between the words and the reality and they want to know why their government isn’t looking out for the welfare of Australians instead of the welfare of the governing class.

    The beauty of it all is that by trekking across the country they’ll be highly visible and for a change their message will be heard. If they’re persistent they have tremendous power. And both you and they know it.

    Arguments about the righteousness of their cause are falling on deaf ears. When you start to hurt the people who get their hands dirty creating the wealth that pays the bills you’ve poked a hornet’s nest. You should run lest you get stung.

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    BobC

    Ben (@893):
    August 7th, 2011 at 10:57 pm
    Kevin Moore @ 892

    Ben, What is the threshold of probability at which danger is deemed to justify action?

    Should we always take steps to avert every conceivable threat, no matter how unlikely it is to occur?

    Kevin, that is a great question.

    If something is almost certain to happen but the consequences are minor then it does not rate a high priority and we may even choose to ignore it.

    But if a risk is quite unlikely, but has extreme consequences then it should be accorded a high priority and action taken to mitigate the risk.

    So as far as AGW goes, given the weight of scientific opinion, it would have to be rated as at least a significant likelihood. But the consequences of significant global warning are catastrophic so it would have to rate a high priority according to risk management standards. Mitigation should be mandatory.

    The problem with shallow, facile arguments like this is that they often produce unintended consequences.

    “Scientific opinion”, historically, has been a poor predictor of truth: Classical mechanics and electromagnetism, continental drift, cause of ulcers, etc. Hence we shouldn’t give it too much weight.

    Much more reliable is independent auditing of research results — the method used by our society for things that really matter if they’re wrong. Examples are new drugs, transport aircraft, etc. Unfortunately, the AGW scientists have been reluctant to allow independent audits of their work — and what has been accomplished anyway by outside experts has exposed much that is dodgy or plain wrong about the field.

    Since the AGW scientists are also the ones predicting the consequences of GW, the whole thing suffers from a high degree of uncertainty and suspicion. The one thing that could be actually verified — skillful predictions of future climate — has been totally flunked by the proposed models.

    So, on the basis of dodgy science and falsified predictions, Ben thinks “mitigation should be mandatory”. (I think so too, but would define “mitigation” as “defunding the climate frauds”.)

    There is, however, an event that would have fantastically catastrophic consequences, has happened in the past, and (there is a consensus on this) will happen again. I refer to a Global Extinction level asteroid strike.

    By your reasoning, therefore, we should be expending a significant amount of effort to detect and intercept EL asteroids (>4km). Quite possibly a more productive use of “stimulus” money then giving it to banks and hoping the don’t just stash it away (like they have done).

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 894

    Are politicians, the people who asked the electors to give them the privilege of being their representative, the electors servant or their master?

    If a servant treats their master with contempt it is in the right of the master to get rid of that servant.

    The servant, by making treaties with other governments has treated the Constitution and people of Australia with contempt, ceding sovereignty of the nation to another government.

    So it would be a bit rich for the servant to argue on Constitutional grounds that the convoy have no right to demand another election.

    Or are elected dictatorships your preferred type of government?

    What do you think?

    Kevin, governments of all persuasions have been making treaties with other nations and international bodies ever since Federation. It is how they regulate affairs between them.

    How do you interpret this as ceding sovereignty? Have you never entered into a contract which gave you rights and obligations? Didn’t you enter into it because, on balance, it was beneficial?

    We have an opportunity every 3 years to change governments if we feel the party in office has not performed well. During the term of a government they will attempt to implement their policies but must also adapt to changing circumstances.

    The convoy is, like any other demonstration, an expression of opinion. The stated objective of forcing an election is an exercise in futility and offensive to many who believe in our democratic processes.

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 895

    Ben @ 893

    But the science is not settled.

    The evidentiary requirements for assessing a future risk have not been met.

    Science is never settled! That is part of the beauty of it. Any theory stands until falsified or replaced by a better theory that better explains observations.

    Currently, the overwhelming majority of climate scientists believe that AGW is happening. As always there are some dissenting views.

    I am not a scientist, but have some basic scientific knowledge and knowledge of scientific method. On that basis I accept the majority view of people who’s knowledge is far deeper than mine will ever be. To do otherwise would be perverse and irrational. At that same time, there is always the possibility that further observations will invalidate currently accepted majority scientific opinion. If that happens, I will change my opinion.

    As science is never ‘settled’ most people go about their daily lives on the basis of currently accepted science. We have to – the alternative is constant doubt about everything and inaction.

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    All the scientists you listen to are hirelings of the multi- tentacled Rockefeller Foundation. They are bound to a collective group-think by money which they need to put food on the table. Consensus science – democratic science, is knowledge so wrong that that you would have to be very intelligent to believe it.

    The word science means to know. Therefore you are saying, I don’t study knowledge, but have some basic knowledge of knowledge and knowledge of knowledge method. So therefore a plus and a minus = a negative = you don’t know.

    Money talks!

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    Ben

    I suggest you watch and listen to these videos:

    Dr Russell Blaylock telling of the harmful side-effects of the swine flu vaccine [explains world government, depopulation, mind control etc.]

    http://www.ecuadorcentral.com/video_tapes/morevideos.html

    Dr Russell Blaylock Nutition and Behaviour [explains why wrong nutrition affects ones ability to think clearly]

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2963728494205235281

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 900

    All the scientists you listen to are hirelings of the multi- tentacled Rockefeller Foundation. They are bound to a collective group-think by money which they need to put food on the table.

    This is full blown conspiracy theorist stuff.
    Do you sing from the CEC, League of Rights or some other song sheet?

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    I don’t sing from The Church of Climatology’s hymn book!

    Tell me more about the League of Rights and CEC, I’m interested.

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    Ben

    Kevin Moore @ 903

    Tell me more about the League of Rights and CEC, I’m interested.

    Well you are spruiking their nonsense so you have picked up the ideas from somewhere. I have no wish to promote them so I leave it to you to look them up.
    Your 901 shows you are also tuned in to the anti-vaccination nutters.

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    I suggest you look up the conflict theories of Karl Marx and dialectics and see what happens to useful-idiots when the psycopathic system you are unconsciously following has no further use for you.

    If you don’t try and learn you’re just a willing dupe.

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    Russell Blaylock is a brain surgeon who has studied the affects of mercury,aluminium and other poisons found in vaccines on brain function.

    So you’re saying he is a nutter. What knowledge do you have on the matter?

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    If you wish to find out how far back corruption in the peer review system goes and about the beginnings of the vaccination fraud:-

    “The Dream and Lie of Louis Pasteur” by R.B.Pearson

    http://web.archive.org/web/20041011052917/http://sumeria.net/dream.html

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    Rob Moore

    Talk is good but actions are much better

    I got a good hearing on Gary Hargraves 4BC drive show and stated that -this isn’t the chicken and the egg situation.

    11 Convoys WILL be there regardless and while it is going to be a week long vacation for most of us- and a hefty fuel bill and if one can’t camp out or in a truck – accomodation will add up! A lot of good supporters due to commitments will simply not be able to come but for the rest- a call up to save Australia from the strange invisible powers that seem to be governing us at present is imperative!

    Re Accom – I will be getting about 7 beds ( comfortable) out of our Shearers Qtrs and putting them in the empty 30 ft area which will be fully covered and private. It will be a wonderful excursion with like- minded friends and when we get there – two days of meeting “Just Grounds members” will make the pain and cost seem paltry! Every one wants to know numbers- I am the eternal pessimist but even I can see that this will be big.

    Be a part of HISTORY – Stand your Ground for Australia.

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    Daryl

    The IMF have just given the Australian government a huge tick for its economic management. Now whether you agree or disagree about thst finding, it’s light years away from ‘ruining the country’.

    So we have a convoy of people who don’t like the result a democxratic election produced, who don’t like the government for reasons not backed up by anyone with any economic knowledge and who want to present a petition that has no constitutional basis.

    It may be well-meaning, but it’s just silly.

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    Mark D.

    P. Dragone is just full of financial wisdom. He/she says; “I hope you share a good accountant” as though he/she is familiar. Why would one need an accountant to reconcile domestic finances? The ONLY reason is because of overly complex tax laws. Such laws as what it appears AU is in for regarding carbon tax.

    Earlier, P. Dragmedown suggests that “fruitcakes” making up the “Tea Party” are responsible for 9 trillion in PAST deficits i.e. before there were “Tea Parties”. Just how stupid could that be? Then “Ben” chimes in with more slander of “US Tea Parties”.

    This is fascinating. Firstly the illogical comments expressed on fiscal responsibility, then the repeated slander of those pushing for fiscal responsibility. P, and Ben, you are seriously scared aren’t you?

    Hmmmmm….. I like that!

    Go Convoy!

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    Cate S

    Above link does not work – so needs to be deleted.
    http://www.abc.net.au/rn/counterpoint/stories/2011/3285714.htm

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    Mark

    Daryl, the figures the IMF makes its assessments on are supplied by the government of the respective country.

    The people didn’t elect this bunch. It was cobbled up with the support of two independents who perverted the wishes of their electorates. Did you bother to check how many votes these people gave to the ALP and Greens? In Lyne it was 13.49 and 4.39 percent respectively. And this egotistical buffoon casts his lot with them! Oakeshott’s name is mud in Lyne now.

    Labor and Green figures for Tony Windsor’s electorate of New England were 8.13% and 3.57%. Again, sheer contempt shown for the wishes of his electors.

    It is the people who comprise the economy and whose efforts sustain it. Smart governments know this and generally keep out of the way. Stupid governments (ie this present one) whose members come almost entirely from unions and social activist groups think they know it all.

    Whatever, like the Whitlam bunch of 1972-75 they will have their arses handed to them well burnt in 2013.

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    Daryl

    Sorry, Mark, but the people did elect this government.

    The ALP gained more than 50% of the 2 Party Preferred vote.

    As far as I can remember, both Mr Windsor and Mr Oakeshott stood as independents. Before they made their decision, I didn’t hear any criticism of them at all, only afterwards.

    Mr Abbott wasn’t able to negotiate a deal with them, even allowing for all the points you have made, so why would you want him as the country’s leader?

    In any event, there are absolutely no constitutional grounds for a new election and you must know that, surel.

    It’s a democracy and no matter what you would have liked to have happened, we have a democratically elected government. A demand for a new election merely refuses to recognise the will of the people until you get what you think is the right result.

    That’s undemocratic, as well as being unconstitutional.

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    Daryl

    Oh, as for the IMF’s figures, are you now seriously suggesting that the government is giving the IMF dodgy figures and the IMF haven’t checked them?

    Seriously?

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    Mark D.

    Just found this which may shed some light on what is happening: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/4/tea-party-terrorists/

    Excerpt:

    Leftist expediency now requires that the most heinous, reckless and degrading comments be used. Tea Partyers are not simply being slandered, they are being dehumanized. Ironically, it is liberals who are paving the way for potential political violence. Terrorists, hostage-takers, suicide bombers, neo-Nazis, the Christian Taliban – all of the epithets regularly thrown at Tea Party members by rabid progressives – eventually foster one overriding emotion: hatred……

    and the closing paragraph:

    For the first time in decades, the left is meeting broad, sustained resistance. Its socialist utopia – so close and yet so far – is slipping away, the victim of economic reality. The entitlement society is unsustainable; it is crumbling under its massive, big-government weight. For progressives, this is why Tea Partyers are “terrorists” – political insurgents who are willing to stand up to the venal, decrepit liberal regime. Yet Tea Partyers are America’s freedom fighters; they are forcing the federal government to begin devolving power back to the people.

    Doesn’t this sound familiar?

    There is more, please take the time to read the whole column.

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    Raven

    Oh the T party , the T party , save me , save me , ……T party core is about less government and less taxation to name a couple .
    I must be a total degenerate as I have a close relationship with a member of the T party in California .
    I have had the pleasure of meeting members of the T party on my visits to the US and have been impressed with their views on many issues . The red and brown queen do not stand up well in comparison .Gillards minority clown college is a running joke , the sad thing is people in Australia see the T party cast as radicals . Amusing thing is that many in the T party see our government as closet COMMUNISTS ! ;)

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    Raven, surely even those degenerates of the T party know that our government has come out of the closet? LOL!

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    The second time Bob Brown’s come out of the closet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_MpLocFQus

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    Google YouTube: “Australias Largest Secret Scam” and “A Picnic at Port Arthur:the Port Arthur Massacre”

    The government tells us lies and has got the system rigged so that its citizenry can never defeat them.

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    Cate on ABC Radio @ 913

    I love your style,your passion and your clarity – inspirational.

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    Joe V.

    Daryl @ 910

    The IMF have just given the Australian government a huge tick for its economic management.

    Don’t you think it’s all rather relative ? With the US Dollar & Europe in the state they are in, the IMF must be mightily relieved there is still some real wealth to be had. And there’s nothing like buttering up the present administration. Especially when they are so disposed to giving it away.

    It’s not so long ago PM Brown in London was being lauded for saving the World, by finding a new word for printing money. Now the Brits are paying for his ‘quantitative easing’, and facing a 3rd night of rioting.

    Socialists think wealth (usually other people’s) is for spending, but know little of generating it. (Might the same be said for Greens & power ?)

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    Mark

    Daryl #915 & #916:

    Yes, the ALP won a slight majority of the national vote.

    Your second point is obscure but given the abysmal vote for both the ALP and the Greens in both their seats one can only wonder why they chose to support them.

    I did not vote for either Abbott or the Liberal candidate in my seat so I will thank you not to make such assumptions.

    I did not make any comment about an early election. We are stuck with this lot until late 2013 or as later circumstances dictate. If the parliamentary majority is lost on a critical vote you would surely have no objection to letting the people resolve the issue would you?

    The IMF does not have the resources to check all information from every country on earth. So yes, they do depend on the data from the various countries being more or less accurate. Australia is stil in a relatively good financial shape despite the depredations of this bunch of drunken Saturday night sailors.

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    BobC

    Mark D. (917): (This is getting to be a long thread!)

    I read the editorial, and I have several disagreements with it:

    Ironically, it is liberals who are paving the way for potential political violence.

    Ironically? — It’s Standard Operating Proceedure for them. It would be ironic if they took responsibility.

    Its socialist utopia – so close and yet so far – is slipping away, the victim of economic reality.

    Economic reality killed it, crushed it, and buried it in the 20th century. It is now rising from the dead like a zombie. (Gives real meaning to the “dead hand of the past”.)

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    Gee Aye

    Kevin Moore:
    August 9th, 2011 at 6:51 am
    Google YouTube: “Australias Largest Secret Scam” and “A Picnic at Port Arthur:the Port Arthur Massacre”
    The government tells us lies and has got the system rigged so that its citizenry can never defeat them.

    I truly hope that the above (and by virtue of the quote, my post) can be expunged from this site. What a truly awful and upsetting link.

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    Bush bunny

    GO THE CONVOY, WITH ALL MY BEST WISHES.

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    Bush bunny

    Kevin Moore @ 922. I suppose you are now going to tell us, that Murdoch
    who murdered Peter Falconie was also innocent. There are also many political anarchists who are out to make a dime or two from conspiracy
    stories.

    The chap who shot those people at Port Arthur, was identified by those
    who were fortunate to survive. So get real, and off this blog.

    I agree with Gee aye at 927.

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    Emmie

    I am hopeful Gee Aye, that the “truly awful and upsetting link” you referred to in post 927 opened your eyes to the true nature of our rulers. Or is it that you just can’t fathom the fact that you may have been fooled all these years – the REAL “truly awful and upsetting” part of the affair being that an innocent man is still serving time so that “they” could divest the nation of arms, arms that could possibly be used against them in times to come!!

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    Emmie

    You could also call the reasons we are going to Canberra a controversy or a Conspiracy theory – but because it AFFECTS US PERSONALLY, our judgement is unquestionably defined as truth and they, the government, are out of order. Please don’t accept the governments say so regarding the subjects in Kevin’s post 921 – at least do the right thing and spend just a little time researching these events even though it may be distasteful to you. Please.

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    Bush bunny @929

    First look at the facts before you go shooting off.

    What research have you done?

    You could say that you have a conspiracy theory of your own.

    I met Wendy Scurr, a traumatised lady who survived the massacre. She tried to tell the truth as she witnessed it, but a conspiracy of silence prevails.

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    memoryvault

    Kevin Moore and Emmie @ various

    There are many “interesting” aspects to the Port Arthur case.
    But here is not the place to be discussing them.

    This site of Jo’s is principally about the ‘science” – or lack of it – in “climate science”.
    This thread is about a convoy to Canberra to express dissatisfaction with the current Parliament.

    Neither of which have very much to do with Port Arthur.
    There are other sites and threads devoted to the subject.

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    Gee Aye @ 927

    Is that a fig leaf? If it is,you should learn the parable of the fig tree!

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    Tut tut Memory vault@ 933

    We are also exposing government deceit. If they can lie to us about global warming, what else are they lying about? Or are you afraid of the truth. If you think a matter shouldn’t be mentioned for fear of reprisal from some quarter then you shouldn’t join the battle. It is people with courage that are needed, not people who are easily cowed.

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    memoryvault

    Kevin Moore @ 935

    So tell me Kevin, when did you join the “battle”?
    What were you doing for the cause against “deceitful government” in 1985?
    What were you doing ten years ago for that matter?

    How many times have you been raided by the police?
    Charged?
    Been to court and defended yourself against charges deliberately brought to silence you?

    Tell me what “reprisals” you have faced from any quarter to make you such an expert on the subject so late in story?

    I didn’t disagree with anything you posted, I simply pointed out this wasn’t the place.

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    Memory vault

    You say, “I didn’t disagree with anything you posred,I simply pointed out this wasn’t the place”.

    If I am off topic why are you so selective?

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    Ben:
    August 6th, 2011 at 10:27 pm
    I don’t understand why you are puzzled. The folks you are mixed up with are exhibiting the same irrationality as the Tea Party in the US and it seems you have a few “Tea Party” types form the US posting in support.

    Irrationality? That would be the only solution that would have NOT downgraded the US rate from AAA, that irrationality? Indeed, in S&P’s simple explanation, they stated, unequivocally, that the problem was spending, exactly what the Tea Party has been railing against.

    it is said you learn from your mistakes. But life is too short to make all the mistakes yourself, so the wise man is the one who also learns from others mistakes. You apparently want to make them all yourself. I pity your fellow countrymen who are much wiser than you.

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    P. Dragone:
    August 6th, 2011 at 11:28 pm
    Howdy everyone on this fine weekend.
    So which country has a AAA rating and an ALP government to thank for it, along with the absence of any political clout on the part of the Tea-party fruitcakes who have chopped off one of the As of the USA’s rating for the first time in its history?

    Nice Scapegoating. I guess you really do not know what you are talking about. Your AAA rating is as fleeting as the USA’s if you are going to follow the same disasterous policies (which with Gillard looks likely). Just because you have not tripped does not mean you are incapable of it.

    If the US congress had followed the Tea Party plan, you would have nothing to crow about since our rating would not have been downgraded. But call them names – that is much easier than refuting their ideas.

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    Ben:
    August 6th, 2011 at 11:46 pm
    Matt @ 834
    So you failed Economics 101?

    He did not need to take economics 101, all he has to do is be able to read and understand English. Your sad ad hominem is laughable given the facts that are known (not the rhetoric that is factless).

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    Gee Aye

    I’m hoping that the organisers can keep the sort of comments discussed in the recent posts out of the media. The convoy’s credibility would be shot (in the eyes of most convoyers I would think) and its purpose confused.

    From a social phenomena viewpoint, I find it fascinating that people believe there is a bipartisan and unelected set of rulers secretly pulling the strings at every level of society.

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    Projectenfour

    The dishonesty of this Government extends to all levels. The Bureau of Statistics is running advertisements on radio this morning telling people that the Census is compulsory. ABS spokespeople are also saying the same thing. The Census is not compulsory. It will only become compulsory when they direct individuals to complete and return a from; until then people are free to refuse their REQUEST for information. This lie is a ploy to scare peole into returning their forms, especially those who are using the Census to protest against the Carbon (Dioxide) Tax.
    The ABS likes to claim that people “willingly complied” with their requests for information. If people give in to their scare tactics then they will be considered to have “willingly complied” with the ABS in spite of the fact that they have submitted their forms under duress.

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    Maxine

    Hmmm

    [snip]

    [I can only say Maxine; shut up. you know nothing about US politics and even less about economics. Don't pretend otherwise and learn the meaning of slander] ED

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    Come on Maxine!

    Even if you roll back all those tax cuts to 2003.There will still be a TRILLION $$$ deficit.

    The problem is chronic overspending.

    Do you know what the current Defense spending is?

    Hint: similar in amount to the next 22 nation COMBINED.

    It is absurd.

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    Maxine

    I am not saying there is no waste—the size of the military budget probably means huge waste and stuff like the Farm Bill that hands out about $300m each year (not sure that figure is up to date.)

    But when you add in how state and local governments there have had to cut things are pretty grim. All this means less and less economic activity, less tax.

    But 20m unemployed Americans is 20m people not paying tax, not contributing much at all to the economy. And those Bush tax cuts if ended will cut a couple trillion dollars from the deficit over say 4 years. [Or without the tax cuts the producers of wealth and employment move offshore or go out of business.] ED

    Do you have any idea how much has been handed to the banks in the two quantitative easings so far? For no benefit to the economy or Budget at all?

    The main problem the US faces is the high unemployment figure! [yes and do you know what employers pay with?] ED

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    Ian Hill

    Projectenfour @ 942

    The Census is not compulsory. It will only become compulsory when they direct individuals to complete and return a from; until then people are free to refuse their REQUEST for information. This lie is a ploy to scare peole into returning their forms, especially those who are using the Census to protest against the Carbon (Dioxide) Tax.

    This is just semantics, arguing about the point at which the census becomes compulsory. Fact is, any person is liable to prosecution for failing to complete the form under the Census and Statistics Act of 1905. There is no lie. All the ABS wants is the most accurate information possible in this snapshot of the nation as at yesterday.

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    Rob Moore

    Hey Get Up trolls –
    Here’s a good little story to suck on-

    Can the “UN”Australian Labor party unshackle themselves from the UN, ILO, ITUC, for a what’s in the “National Interest” C02 policy dump?

    Are these “UN”Australian Labor backbenchers & “UN”Independent’s so fully lobotomized that they cannot understand or are they just so totally ignorant to the outcomes of the disastrous method/implementation of the UN Kyoto protocol being patched together by an incompetent Gov. I say to these self appointed masters of wisdom how can you have prosperity & growth when the policy is one of Energy starvation at massive escalating cost to all.

    Look to the UK, Ireland, Spain, etc to see the result of the same wisdom of restricting economic growth with bad UN implemented policy.

    “The Devil finds work for idle hands to do” UK riots.

    GREEN JOBS: THE EUROPEAN EXPERIENCE Renw Report

    The report’s key finding is that for every job created in the UK in renewable energy, 3.7 jobs are lost.

    One in five households in Fuel poverty as energy prices soar.

    5.5m homes spend over 10% of gross income on fuel, and bills will rise further to fund new power networks. UK, Ireland, Scotland, EU, Spain,…..

    Can we do it better in Australia? Yes we Can! without a Carbon Tax.

    With only 18.3% of the workforce enrolled in a Union & only a small fraction of that voluntary why is it they the owners of the “UN” Australia Labor party have 100% of the say in how a Nation of 22 million should be inflicted with dept & destruction by a absurd CARBON TAX.

    Treasurer Wayne Swan refuses to hand over the full modelling of the Impacts for scrutiny by the senate even after repeated requests by the senate.

    Why have treasury manipulated the Clean Energy Future modelling to achieve a dictated by the minister outcome?

    Why don’t they explain the Incredible increase in population for the Nation that has been inserted in the modelling?

    The massive Carbon Tax footprint that this huge immigration creates on the Nation puts constant strain on infrastructure at the same time reducing all forms of energy consumption is stupid Labor policy from the old days.

    The result is high unemployment with billions of $ of additional wealth transfer to corrupted foreign regimes?

    “Who makes himself a sheep will be eaten by the wolves”

    Tags: Bad, CO2, Carbon, Election, Government, Greens, Independents, Labor, Now, Tax, More…Unions

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    Cate S

    Hello good people! Just an update, on the Just Grounds site – individual Convoy discussions 1-11 have now been added within formation relevant to individual convoys. Also, the Coalition of Industries agenda once at Canberra for the 2 days! ;)
    l^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l l^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| jj_\__
    |Eleven convoys from all over Australia!|-|”””["];.__.
    |+___+___+___+___+| l+___+___+___+l/|__|_]lllll]|<
    [l(@)’(@)””"”"”"”"”"l(@)l–(@)l “”"”"”"”"”"(@)’(@)”"”"”"(@)”l

    l^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l l^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| jj_\__
    |Eleven convoys from all over Australia!|-|”"”["];.__.
    |+___+___+___+___+| l+___+___+___+l/|__|_]lllll]|<
    [l(@)’(@)””"”"”"”"”"l(@)l–(@)l “”"”"”"”"”"(@)’(@)”"”"”"(@)”l

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    Maxine

    Got my carbon tax booklet today. Well designed, attractive and gives a lot of detail. I liked how the tax reform part of the package was given quite a bit of space.

    I think it will put the minds of a lot of people at ease, even looking forward to the extra money and the reason for doing it will make people feel it is all for the good of the planet, meaning them, their kids and grandkids.

    Meanwhile, some deluded people are spending a lot of time and money on an exercise they think is ground roots stuff but was organised by and for vested interests—astroturf not grass roots.

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    Maxine:
    August 10th, 2011 at 12:28 pm
    I am not saying there is no waste—the size of the military budget probably means huge waste and stuff like the Farm Bill that hands out about $300m each year (not sure that figure is up to date.)

    But when you add in how state and local governments there have had to cut things are pretty grim. All this means less and less economic activity, less tax.

    You are pretty ignorant of the US system. The fact the states have made tough choices and cut spending (for the most part without raising taxes) demonstrates it can be done, with intelligence. That you do not recognize your own ignorance by stating a fact that contradicts your point is surprising.

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    Cate S

    Bite me! HA! :)

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    Mark D.

    Maxine, remember one thing if you can: Governments do NOT create wealth. You cannot tax a people into prosperity! Not ever ever ever.

    To employ people, business needs the flexibility to operate (less government regulation), and Low cost energy.

    In the US we have burdensome government regulation at many levels (no claim that it’s worse than in AU), and for all the effort of the Department of Energy we have a huge energy trade imbalance sucking wealth out of our economy. That is our problem.

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    Maxine

    PJ @ 950

    I bet you would not like to be in one of the states that cut expenditure, even if you kept your job.

    Mark @ 952
    That mindless slogan come from the Bush Era when the brain damaged idiot emptied the US Treasury then started two wars. Result (including Reagon and his idiotic supply-side nonsense) $12Tn govt debt. Yes, more tax to reduce the Repugs’ huge deficit would be good. Reduce the interest on the debt by being able to pay it off earlier so yes you can tax yourself into prosperity.

    Here the Carbon Tax will allow a trebling of the tax-free threshold, giving tax relief to millions and making it much more worthwhile for say the wife to re-enter the workforce. I suggest you discard slogans and start thinking.

    Not that you lot are the only one being led around by the nose by those spouting meaningless slogans. Here, and I noticed another mention of it earlier today we have those spouting the silly line that Labor has spent the surplus built up over the years.

    A Budget surplus or deficit is just a number describing the flow in a financial year, it means no more than that. A govt doesn’t put the surplus into a piggy bank and draws down on that in a deficit year! Anyway, the Howard & Costello govts never made a surplus—the money got spent the next year as tax cuts and pork barreling and election buying—if the govt Budget did work like a piggybank money got put in and immediately taken out again.

    How could all these tax cuts and irresponsible tax cuts be afforded? One-off sell off of govt assets like Telstra and the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories and then the mining and debt fuelled spending boom 2001-8.

    Two ways to reduce a deficit directly, cut spending and/or raise taxes. the longer term but better way is to work to reduce the high unemployment you guys have, officially 9% but really more like 15-20%—you can’t prosper while that many people are out of work!

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    Maxine

    Woops “how could all this spending and irresponsible tax cuts”

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    Mark D.

    Alright Maxine, I agree fully with this:

    Two ways to reduce a deficit directly, cut spending and/or raise taxes. the longer term but better way is to work to reduce the high unemployment you guys have, officially 9% but really more like 15-20%—you can’t prosper while that many people are out of work!

    I cannot be proud of these numbers but I will say with absolute conviction: Obama and Democrats in Congress have done little to restore any confidence in the US economy.
    THAT is why the unemployment numbers are bad and not getting better.

    You say Bush “started two wars” I say Obama didn’t end them (and started another). I’m no fan of US policing the world for free. I think we should stop all of it move our troops home and put them on our borders. I think we should disband the Department of Energy and the EPA. I think we should begin a strict policy of oil independence. I think we should tell the Middle East to F&^7 themselves.

    But how do you think raising taxes will put people to work? Even Obama saw that this would not work.

    Pity you think that is a “mindless slogan” It is the very simple truth.

    By the way his name is spelled Reagan.

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    Maxine:
    August 11th, 2011 at 12:05 am
    PJ @ 950

    I bet you would not like to be in one of the states that cut expenditure, even if you kept your job.

    You are making it a bad habit of being wrong. I live in a state that cut expenditures (4 years running now), and guess what? I even work for that State (Commonwealth). Have not had a raise in those 4 years either! You lose the bet. Now as payment for that bet, admit you are totally clueless and have no idea of what you are talking about.

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    Maxine:
    August 11th, 2011 at 12:05 am
    That mindless slogan come from the Bush Era when the brain damaged idiot emptied the US Treasury then started two wars. Result (including Reagon and his idiotic supply-side nonsense) $12Tn govt debt. Yes, more tax to reduce the Repugs’ huge deficit would be good. Reduce the interest on the debt by being able to pay it off earlier so yes you can tax yourself into prosperity.

    Again with the cluelessness. Mark is right, and you are again wrong. Reagan did not create $12t in debt, not even close. Bush had $4t in debt in 8 years, as much as Obama has had in 2 1/2 years! Your ad hominems not only show you are wrong, but your desperation in trying to convince sentient people of your idiocy.

    As a demonstration of your ignorance, try this. Place $10 in your right pocket. Now, take it out, removing $1 from the $10, and place it in your left pocket. See how much richer you are now? That is how government works. You cannot tax your way to prosperity because you are creating NO WEALTH. period, End of your lame ad hominem laced attack.

    A Budget surplus or deficit is just a number describing the flow in a financial year, it means no more than that.

    You contradict yourself. A deficit means interest payments (which you rail about in your previous paragraph). A surplus means less interest payments. Is your name really Maxine, or did you get that wrong as well. You got everything else wrong.

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    Maxine

    Agree Obama is clueless and incompetent.

    Obama has pulled out pretty much all troops from Iraq and is starting to pull out of Afghanistan so you are wrong there.

    PJ you like not having had a raise for four years? In some states in the US streetlights are on only for a few hours, streets have been turned into unsealed roads as these are cheaper to maintain and services just cut to the bone.

    Reagan and his huge tax cuts for the rich and his ridiculous supply side economics started the slide into huge deficit. The two Bush Presidents, father and son, added to them. Have a look at:

    http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2011/07/graphic_of_the.html

    You need tax reform in the US. None of you lot have looked at what is going on in Ireland I suppose? Austerity has ruled that unhappy land for several years now. Still faces huge deficits and has 25% unemployment. Ireland too decided it was a brilliant tactic to just cut spending without looking at tax but since cutting spending meant unemployment increased hugely and rapidly income tax payments to the Irish Treasury fell. Now you want to apply that to the US? Do you hate the US?

    PJ there is a difference between a deficit and deciding to borrow to finance that deficit, my point is that the govt does not put its surplus into a bank account or piggy bank, surpluses/deficits are just flows in a particular financial year. Howard and Costello did not pile up a huge bank account from their so-called surpluses. The Future Fund was just Costello trying to put some money out of Howard’s reach

    The whole postwar period, under Chifley and under Menzies and Menzies’ successors the govt ran budget deficits which allowed the private sector to run a surplus. These were the years of full employment and, for want of a better word, national happiness.

    The Tea Party, and deluded admirers of the Tea Party here, by looking only at spending will fail to reduce deficits but will raise the unemployment level in the US to well over 20%. That happened in Ireland, is happening in Greece, the UK etc. With all these examples before you I would have thought intelligent people would have a good think about where they want their nation to go but for the extreme rightwingers it seems slogans take the place of thought. That is not an ad hominem just an inevitable conclusion.

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    brc

    Maxine – of all the arrivals at this thread you seem to be the most uninformed and incorrect by a winning distance.

    there is a difference between a deficit and deciding to borrow to finance that deficit

    A deficit is when the government spends more than it takes in. A surplus is when the government spends less than it takes in. The only deficits that don’t involve borrowing are those which eat into cash saved up from running surpluses through the good years.

    Howard and Costello did not pile up a huge bank account from their so-called surpluses

    Yes, they did, and not just the Future fund (which was also saved – and invested – government funds) The government had net savings at the end of 2007. Cash saved from surpluses. You contradict yourself by saying governments can run deficits without borrowing but cannot save cash from surpluses.

    under Chifley and under Menzies and Menzies’ successors the govt ran budget deficits which allowed the private sector to run a surplus

    This comment is so wrong it’s hard to know where to start. You cannot run endless deficits as Greece, UK, Ireland, Portugal, Italy, USA and Spain are finding out. Private sector ‘surplus’ as you put it is called ‘profit’. Without sustainable profits, the private sector ceases to exist, as GM and Chrysler found out. To pretend that a government runs a deficit, which is somehow balanced because the private sector runs a ‘surplus’ is impossible to criticise because the statement is just wrong-headed, like saying it’s Ok for high school students to cheat on their exams because high school teachers have a good union. It’s nonsense laced with poor arguments for the nonsense.

    You seem to have same strange coagulation of Keynesian theory, dashed with a bit of Marxism and topped with a fairyland economics chaser. You cannot run endless budget deficits, because you will encourage formation of employment in an unsustainable sector – ie, public service and welfare, and at some point, you will end up collecting tax just to pay the creditors. To then say you cannot stop running deficits because this mis-allocated economic activity will then fail is to pursue the line that it is unwise to stop drinking because you will generate a hangover. The only way to avoid a hangover while drinking is to drink until you are dead. The state-sponsored jobs are already gone – it’s just a matter of when, not if. Now, you can blame and scream at whomever administers the medicine and kills these unsustainable jobs, but the fact is, the people who created the jobs and encouraged people to engage in unsustainable economic activities are to blame. Politicians who create meaningless value destroying departments and programs are the ones responsible, not the ones who break the news that it can go on no longer. It’s painful, yes, but transitions are seldom pain-free.

    Correct Keynesian theory is that a government runs a surplus during periods of normal economic activity, and then, during a downturn in private sector demans, spends that saved surplus on value-creating infrastructure projects to smooth out economic demand. However, this theory is unworkable in practice because of politicians, who want to bignote themselves all of the time. So they run deficits during good times, then borrow and splash around more during bad times. The money is wasted on uneconomic projects ‘bridges to nowhere’ (aka $900 cheques and pink batts) and then each subsequent recession is worse because it just adds debt and creates no extra value, until it ends in debt-destructive, deflationary depression, which is about where we are at now. As Keynesian policies cannot, and have not, ever been successfully implemented, the theory is a dud. Any theory that fails in practice is a failed theory.

    The damage has been done by successive administrations of all political stripes, as you correctly point out, but the latest has really stepped on the gas and brought the endgame closer. The damage can only be undone by honestly stating where things are. Sure, tax rates have to go up for everyone – to a workable level taht doesn’t encourage avoidance, but these are dwarfed by the spending cuts that need to take place in the USA and other countries. Massive cuts have to take place, and the end of the welfare state has to begin. This includes top-level welfare, AKA ‘too big to fail’ banks and companies. Let the chips fall where they lay, because people have to work through the wreckage and come up with sustainable, productive industries from the ashes. Endlessly borrowing and increasing debt to keep people in busy-work that is economically destructive ends in complete government, currency and societal collapse. Just ask the Soviet Union.

    Australia is still rescueable because it hasn’t gone too far down this track, mainly because the Australian voters are skeptical of big governments, although this is lessening with time, social conditioning and promises of freebies from treasury. But it’s not too late to can all the useless government departments, shrink the public service over time with regards to private sector employment and allow job creation to happen in an open marketplace, rather than in public service or industries which directly require government payments to survive (ie windfarms, solar panels, green loans, pink batts). The carbon tax seeks to create more government-dependent zombie industries, such as steel and alumnium making, and power production. This has to be avoided at all costs.

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    Maxine

    brc @ 959
    The only deficits that don’t involve borrowing are those which eat into cash saved up from running surpluses through the good years.

    WRONG! Surpluses are not deposited somewhere! The govt Budget is not like the budget of a household. For one, the govt prints the currency, the fiat money which has value and is used because you have to pay your taxes in that currency. All that matters is the flow. You really have to understand that before you can talk about these matters sensibly.

    Howard and Costello did not create a pile of money. That is not how government finance works.

    Well, you look up Treasury or RBA websites and you will see that from Federation until Keating handed down surplus budgets and started retiring the long term debt, mostly that used to finance WWII, the commonwealth budget was in deficit. This is not a matter of opinion but a matter of fact, of record. Look in the various Budget figures, look at the Treasury Website which has a list of the deficits outstanding each financial year. When you find the figures you will also see that Whitlam increased the national debt a lot less than Treasurer Howard did.

    Boy are you wrong about Keynesian economics. Wrong about the $900 cheques, wrong about the HIP and tho you didn’t mention it wrong about the BER. You are also wrong about why we currently have a deficit—the GFC caused a drop in tax receipts, especially company tax receipts. Basically, Costello cut income tax for the rich so much that company tax became a major part of total tax receipts. Fine while the mining boom Mk1 and the debt fuelled spending boom were running, not so fine when first that mining boom and consequently the borrow-spend boom collapsed. The stimulus was about $40Bn IIRC, the deficit over the forward years of the Budget was $22Bn, later revised down to $175Bn because the stimulus was so successful. A lot of that stimulus spend ended back with the govt as tax anyway.

    You really need to do some reading and searching out of Budget figures.

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    chris w

    I live in the proserpine area and am not on a convoy route. There are a lot of people between rocky and townsville who are also sick of the buffoons in government. They couldn’t run a free brothel in an army camp. STICK IT TO THEM!

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    brc

    Maxine, you’re a real comedy act. So the Federal Government doesn’t have a balance sheet then. You might want to notify Treasury of this development. Mind you, if they don’t have a balance sheet, it must be a hell of a job calculating the net debt position. But you know this – you say the stimulus was $40 bn, and the deficit was $22 bn, which means the $18 bn came from….could it be, savings from the previous 10 years of surpluses? No, that’s right, Surpluses are not deposited somewhere. They just, um, disappear into thin air or something.

    I’ll let you argue some more, because you are doing a sterling job at showing how little you know. I’ll give you a hint – anyone who pretends that one side of politics has got it all correct with regards to finance and economics, and the other side has it all wrong, is either ignorant or deliberately pretending to be so.

    ‘Better to shut your mouth and seem like an idiot rather than open it and remove all doubt’.

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    Projectenfour

    Is the Census in trouble?
    Since Wednesday the Bureau of Statistics has been running radio advertisement telling us that the Census is compulsory and we should send our forms in. This is curious because on the Census Form it states “your cooperation is sought in completing this form” Nowhere on the form does it state that the Census is compulsory.
    A separate leaflet which the Census collectors gave to people who asked “is it compulsary?” states “Ultimately, yes. … At this time you are being asked to answer the questions in the Census form. If you do not answer the questions, the Australian Statistician has the power to direct you in writing to provide the information.”
    The Census was not compulsory on Tuesday night, but all of a sudden it is. So, what has changed since Tuesday night to make the Census compulsory when no one has been directed in writing to provide the information?
    Could it be that the response to the Census has been affected by disaffection with, and distrust of the Government over the Carbon Tax and the Government’s overall ineptitude and they are now trying to scare people into returning their forms to hide the extent of this rebellion.

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    Ian Hill

    Many thanks to the kind person who brought up my ton. I’ve been absolutely amazed that this thread just keeps rolling along, but not at all surprised! My @ 2 posting was because of insomnia only and I saw the opportunity to have another dig at the Greens. Looks like you’re next Thumbnail.

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    Maxine

    Hmmm keyboard not cooperating, deficit over forward estimates years was $225Bn, later reduced to $175Bn.

    Where did the money come from? Borrowing because there is no pile of money lying around from surplus years for a govt to dip into, zilch.

    In a surplus year tranches of debt coming up for renewal can be retired, in deficit years they must be rolled over and extra may be borrowed.

    To see the debt owed by the commonwealth govt look at:

    http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/1496/PDF/01_Debt.pdf

    Chart 5

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    Maxine

    So, cutting expenditure while not raising taxes is the right thing to do?

    As those talks stumbled, new finance ministry data showed Greece’s state budget deficit in the seven months to July 2011 widening 24.6% from a year earlier as revenue collections continued to lag.

    In a statement, the Finance Ministry said that the cumulative state budget deficit rose to €15.51 billion in first seven months of the year—compared with €12.45 billion a year earlier, while net budget revenues fell 6.4% budget expenditures jumped 7.1%.

    http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2011/08/eyes-back-to-europe/

    So cut spending means you cut jobs which means you collect less income tax so you cut spending. . .and so it goes. Create jobs and you increase tax collections. I pity the US and Europe under this ideological ly-driven vicious circle. The US needs another FDR.

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    Mark D.

    Maxine, Government spending cuts DO NOT automatically cut jobs( except maybe government jobs). Tax cuts do stimulate job creation. The Regan, Bush, present tax cuts are NOT just for the wealthy.

    YOU SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!

    Confidence is what is needed not tax increases, not more government spending. It appears that the TARP spending (to boost and stabilize the economy) was exactly what many predicted: Did nothing but run up the debt which then caused lower CONFIDENCE. Proof that Keynes was wrong.

    Business are holding cash. They are holding cash because they are fearful. They are fearful because of the failure of leadership and fiscal responsibility in government.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704774604576035791444372756.html

    Eventually the cash will flow and jobs will come from that. It will only take some real hope and real change. Obama is smoke and mirrors.

    Thanks for the link @965 where this tidbit is found:
    Bush: $6.1tr / 8 years = $0.76tr/year debt
    Obama: $2.4tr / 1.75 years = $1.37tr/year debt

    Get off the mantra that this is Bush’s fault it makes you look stupid.

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    Ben

    Maxine @ 966
    I don’t think you are getting through to the small intellects that inhabit this blog.
    They don’t understand that a recession is caused by lack of demand in an economy. So, if business isn’t spending and consumers aren’t spending, there is only govt left to kick start things by stimulus spending as has happened in Australia.

    It doesn’t help that the Tea Party seems to have found this blog and is present with all it’s missionary zeal.

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    Maxine:
    August 11th, 2011 at 7:34 am

    PJ you like not having had a raise for four years? In some states in the US streetlights are on only for a few hours, streets have been turned into unsealed roads as these are cheaper to maintain and services just cut to the bone.

    I did not add an emotional qualifier to my statements of fact. But I do understand having to live within one’s means. And sometimes that means cutting back. I have done so in my life several times, because unlike many, I do not feel anyone OWES me anything. I agree to the wage, and if I do not like it, I can always find another job. At least for now while the country is still free.

    Reagan and his huge tax cuts for the rich and his ridiculous supply side economics started the slide into huge deficit. The two Bush Presidents, father and son, added to them. Have a look at:

    I do not have to have a look. I have studied the time, and know it well. The cut was in the marginal rates. This caused the rich people to stop hiding money from taxes (through shelters) which caused them to actually pay MORE in taxes. You read the editorials, and never do the leg work. I have. All you have to do is look at the tax receipts following the cut to see what happened.

    The Tea Party, and deluded admirers of the Tea Party here, by looking only at spending will fail to reduce deficits but will raise the unemployment level in the US to well over 20%.

    Your whole premise is based upon talking points and empty rhetoric. The facts are: Since 1980, spending has increased 299%! SPENDING. That is a spending problem. not a tax problem as taxes have remained constant at 18% of GDP (and since GDP has grown over 27% since then, that means they have gone up a lot!). All of those figures are inflation adjusted.

    So you are just wrong, you believe the left wing propaganda without checking the facts, and come to all the wrong conclusions. Spending has never been cut in the modern age. Even now, they are not talking about “cutting” the spending, only lowering the rate of increase in spending. The TEA Party understands this and knows all these facts and figures. You apparently are clueless, just love to bash those you have no conception of.

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    Mark D.

    Small intellect indeed Ben, So what do you call yourself Marxist? Socialist? or do you prefer a more esoteric appellation?

    Your “intellect” fails to understand that “demand” won’t happen if there is no confidence in the economy. That loss of confidence is because idiots and their failing ideology have been running it (or pretending to run it) for too long. Take a look at the “stimulated” US economy Ben, how well did that work?

    It must be hard for you to cope with the reality of your ideology failing in front of your eyes.

    Get ready for the change Ben.

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    Wendy

    Maxine:
    August 11th, 2011 at 7:34 am

    In some states in the US streetlights are on only for a few hours, streets have been turned into unsealed roads as these are cheaper to maintain and services just cut to the bone.

    I’d love to know exactly where this is occurring. Got some facts to back up your statement?

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    Ben:
    August 11th, 2011 at 10:22 pm
    Maxine @ 966
    I don’t think you are getting through to the small intellects that inhabit this blog.

    Ah! The inevitable ad hominems surface for those who have lost the debate and can now only resort to temper tantrums for not getting their way. Sorry little boy, but big people play here. And if you want to make a point, you use logic and facts, not ad hominems and pejoratives.

    They don’t understand that a recession is caused by lack of demand in an economy. So, if business isn’t spending and consumers aren’t spending, there is only govt left to kick start things by stimulus spending as has happened in Australia.

    What you do not understand is the government only has 2 ways to spend money and both are taxes – disincentives for investment and growth. Direct Taxes take money out of the pockets of those creating jobs. That is a fact. Printing money takes money out the pockets of everyone (inflation). Government does not create. It is the vigorish a society pays for the rules of the society. As such, it is a drain on the economy, not a stimulus for it. We have the perfect example (which if you were honest, you could see). $1t in porkulus, and zero results. You do not double down on stupid by trying it again. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

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    Ben

    Mark D @ 970

    What does the D stand for Mark? Not ‘Dunce’ perhaps?

    I do most of my reading about the economic situation in the US with writers like Paul Krugman. For example http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/05/opinion/the-wrong-worries.html?WT.mc_id=NYT-E-I-NYT-E-AT-0810-L18

    Oh, he just happens to have won a Nobel prize for economics so I think he probably knows a little more than both of us.

    Now what didn’t you understand in my statement above:

    They don’t understand that a recession is caused by lack of demand in an economy. So, if business isn’t spending and consumers aren’t spending, there is only govt left to kick start things by stimulus spending as has happened in Australia.

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    Wendy

    Less than a week til the convoys head out!! Safe journey to all!
    GO CATE!!!! :D

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    Maxine

    The Reagan tax cuts did not cause more tax to be paid. The recovery from the recession ensured the tax receipts rose. Reagan was the start of a rightwing movement that caused the present problems. The Laffer curve doesn’t really exist, might work for minor adjustments to rates.

    It is not just a spending program. Tax rates need urgent revisions. More tax revenue will allow more spending on jobs. At present the private sector is deleveraging or disleveraging and so the govt needs to run deficits (in a deficit the govt puts more money into the economy than it takes out, in a surplus situation more money is taken out of the economy.

    The Irish are STILL cutting spending and still having deficits—and roaring unemployment, emigration of its young which will lead to more cutting.

    Here the Labor govt has been whittling away at middleclass welfare and in this Budget implemented $22Bn in middleclass welfare cuts. The Carbon Tax will allow more tax reform, reform that will encourage more back into the workforce and will allow company tax to be cut, incl a bigger cut to small business which will encourage more investment, more jobs.

    You say I just spout slogans? Nope, you do that, I have shown that despite years of austerity (cutting spending) Greece and Ireland still have big deficits.

    Look after jobs, reform the tax scales/tax law—at least remove the Bush tax cuts, cut spending that is just waste and invest in jobs jobs jobs.

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    Maxine

    Printing money only creates inflation if there is already a healthy level of demand in the private sector. Government creates money by spending it.

    Wendy, you only need look at some of the US papers. In some states they are using the recession (and the cut spending mantra) to cut public servants wages and the collective bargaining powers of public servants. Great, even less demand! All this was tried here in the 1930s (Google “Premiers’ Plan” and we had the longest and deepest Great Depression.

    Generally, one boom busts and it takes 15 years for a new bubble to start—as those who were there in the boom and bust retire from their companies, others leave the industry etc. I think this applies to the Tea Party simpletons too—I am a Baby Boomer and was given grim chapter and verse of life in the Last Great Depression (and the calls to “economise” by leaders.) Generations that came after the Baby Boomers did not get these lessons read to them ad nauseam. So they were ripe for the plucking by ideologues (and those like Murdoch looking for ways to increase his power and profits) of the far right, the loony right.

    Cutting spending without reforming tax and without looking to boost employment will fail, as they are failing in Ireland, Greece and the UK (the Irish Times carried an article about the UK deficit rising because revenues are lower than expected because unemployment is rising.

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    Maxine

    BTW Phil

    I have been called stupid, ignorant etc. I wouldn’t accuse others of ad homs if I were you!

    As to facts none have been offered to me. Incorrect information and slogan slogan slogan, belief offered as fact. I have pointed to concrete examples like the persistent deficits of Ireland and Greece etc.

    Someone earlier today had trouble accepting that the government doesn’t run some piggy bank where it deposits surpluses (the FF is one case where some money was desperately shoved to keep it out of Howard’s reach, as a rule this does not happen. A surplus or deficit just records the net flow of money between the private and public sectors and that is all. An email to Treasury will confirm that.

    Someone else called Bs on commonwealth govt being in deficit until the 1980/90s. I posted a link to a chart (in a PDF) showing just that.

    I am afraid the people of the US are going to have to prove all over again that just cutting spending just leads to a Depression, likely a Long Depression lasting a decade, even more and dragging the western world down with it. I really don’t want to see that happening!

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    Mark D.

    Oh Ben (using intellect no doubt) goes from ad homs right to appeal to authority.

    Ben that is brilliant.

    Ben, no the D doesn’t stand for dunce. It stands for small business owner. I employ people. I pay those taxes. I make the payroll payments. I take the risks. I’m my own authority.

    How about you Ben, do you employ people?

    But you link to Krugman? Krugman identifies as a Keynesian. Krugman describes himself as liberal. I don’t agree with the ideas of either Keynes or liberals (US style).

    Where was Krugman when the Government was screwing up? Why wasn’t this Nobel master telling Obama to stop being an idiot? Krugman is a worthless academic and wouldn’t know how to make an honest living on his own. It doesn’t surprise me that you’d idolize a non-producer.

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    Maxine

    BTW the govt can create.

    One of the public works in the US was the building of the interstate routes. They carry a shitload of commercial/industrial traffic.

    Here the Snowy Mountain Scheme still provides hydro power and irrigation water. The roads that were built to supply the scheme today carry people and supplies to the snow slopes.

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    The Black Adder

    ..Let’s go Convoy of no Confidence!!

    There is a saying that goes… ” There will be no Carbon Tax under a Government I lead ”

    Hmmmmm….

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    Wendy

    Maxine:
    August 11th, 2011 at 11:31 pm
    Wendy, you only need look at some of the US papers. In some states they are using the recession (and the cut spending mantra) to cut public servants wages and the collective bargaining powers of public servants.

    You are talking about the recent upheavals in Wisconsin……..(which has nothing to do with street lights nor upkeep of roads). Do you find it so objectionable to have those government employees contribute to their health insurance and retirement plans?
    Do you think that the unions there had a *slight* conflict of interest in dictating the health insurance companies that must be used which were owned lock, stock and barrel by those very unions????

    YOU made the accusation, Maxine, about the street lights and roads. Back up your accusation.

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    Maxine

    Krugman is employed by the NYT not the US TReasury or White House. D’uh!

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    Maxine

    Not just Wisconsin, Wendy, and not just pension and health payments either. But full marks to you for at least having even part of a clue. A refreshing change!

    If you want examples of drastic cuts in other states I will dig a couple out, but give me a little bit of time please.

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    Mark D.

    Maxine, the Interstate was built by private contractors. The government was simply an administrator of the project and the conduit for tax dollars to the contractors. The government did NOT create wealth it NEVER does.

    Employed by the NYT? Oh let me reconsider his value to me……..the same as the baseball commentator-NOTHING.

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    Maxine

    BlackAdder (actually, Baldrick would be more appropriate) what will be introduced is not a carbon tax but an ETS with fixed prices for permits. We also all know that the idiotic Greens insisted on that idiocy, but hey why spoil a good story eh?

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    BobC

    Ben:
    August 11th, 2011 at 11:14 pm
    Mark D @ 970

    What does the D stand for Mark? Not ‘Dunce’ perhaps?

    I do most of my reading about the economic situation in the US with writers like Paul Krugman. For example http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/05/opinion/the-wrong-worries.html?WT.mc_id=NYT-E-I-NYT-E-AT-0810-L18

    Oh, he just happens to have won a Nobel prize for economics so I think he probably knows a little more than both of us.

    Well, I would be willing to posit that he knows more than you, anyway.

    But, as Mark notes, how many people does Krugman employ? Zero. I would also take high odds that you have never made a payroll. If Krugman (or you) are wrong about your economic guesses (as he often is), it doesn’t really matter. There are always fools that idolize Krugman, no matter how wrong he turns out to be. (About you — I doubt there is anybody that foolish.)

    However, if Mark D makes bad decisions about running his business, his business fails and his employees are out of jobs. This is the disipline of the real world, largely unknown to academic theorizers, who nevertheless believe that they know all about it.

    I’ve been a very successful engineer, relative prolific inventor (17 patents + numerious unpatented) and serial business owner.

    Of the three, starting and running a business is by far the hardest.

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    brc

    You guys are off the reservation.

    I should have known someone was slurping at the Krugman chalice. He’s always good for some economic comedy, straight from the ‘this time it’s different, we’re much smarter than our forebears’ playbook.

    You can throw as much money at someone as you like, but if they don’t want to spend it, it aint going to do diddly squat. Sure, they might blow a few notes on the pokies or a new TV, but if you want real, durable demand that person needs to be confident that the spent money will be easily replaced. Confident that their job, industry, town, state is going to be around and in the same shape in the future. Otherwise, you can shovel as much money at people as you like, and it’s going to go into debt reduction and mattress stuffing.

    The problem many people are suffering is that they think all sorts of financial alchemy are necessary for a good standard of living, and general improvements to that. When all that is necessary is that the majority of people are creating value for each other. The baker is baking good bread, the candlestick maker making good candles. The rich societies are the ones where everyone is engaged in productive effort, specialised in their own niche. Show me a poor society and I’ll show you one where people are standing around doing nothing. Notice I haven’t mentioned currency yet. Because it’s just a token, passed between people in order to agree on a common unit of value to create efficiency. This has been true since the first caveman traded a yaks leg for a quick shag from the first prostitute. All the modern finance in the world tries to mask this but the further you get away from understanding an economy is the process of people trading their specialties with each other, the more bizarre theories you’re likely to believe in, like this current one doing the rounds on this blog in that the key to working 20 hours a week is printing lots of money in endless deficits.

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    Mark D.

    Maxine you have given no proof of your economic assertions. In fact the economic realities PROVE you are wrong! If deficit spending by governments actually worked we’d be in for a huge boom!

    YOU are wrong, the policies you hold dear: more tax more spend are proven economy wreckers!

    Duh no wonder people think you are stupid.

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    The Black Adder

    Dear Jo,

    You are a fantastic Australian.

    Everyone in this convoy is a fantastic Australian.

    Everyone who reads this blog and joins in on the convoy is a fantastic Australian.

    Everyone who reads this blog and wants to join in the convoy but can’t because of three bloody rugrats (that i love dearly) and i can only drive a few kilometres but I will !! We can all be fantastic Australians…

    Question ; Why did PM Juliar cross the road?
    Answer ; To get out of the road of the Convoy….

    Question ; Why did Treasurer Swannie cross the road?
    Answer ; To get out of the road of the Convoy…

    Question ; Why did Climate Change Minister Greg Combing Hair cross the road?
    Answer ; To get out of the road of the Convoy…

    Question ; Why did the Average Aussie cross the road?
    Answer ; To hitch a lift with the Convoy….

    Ya gotta love Australia :)

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    Mark D.

    BRC:

    A Yaks leg?

    Damn times were tough. I wonder what the dollar to yaks leg ratio is today…..

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    Wendy

    Maxine:
    August 11th, 2011 at 11:57 pm
    Not just Wisconsin, Wendy, and not just pension and health payments either. But full marks to you for at least having even part of a clue. A refreshing change!

    If you want examples of drastic cuts in other states I will dig a couple out, but give me a little bit of time please.

    condescend much?? You’re a real piece of work, Maxine. (or should I say “bless your heart”)

    I’m still waiting for you to post up specific examples of where street lights are run only a couple hours per night and “streets have been turned into unsealed roads as these are cheaper to maintain”.

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    Maxine

    States Aim Ax at Health Cost of Retirement

    Governors and mayors facing large deficits have set their sights on a relatively new target — the soaring expense of health benefits for millions of retired state and local workers.

    As they contend with growing budget deficits and higher pension costs, some mayors are complaining that their outlays for retiree health benefits are rising by 20 percent a year — a result of the wave of retirements of baby boomers and longer life expectancies on top of the double-digit rate of health care inflation.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/14/busin … s&emc=tha2

    Gee, that must have been a total surprise [/sarcasm] about the baby boomers.

    Already, protests erupted in Ohio this week, where another newly elected Republican governor, John Kasich, has been seeking to take away collective bargaining rights from unions.

    In Tennessee, a law that would abolish collective bargaining rights for teachers passed a State Senate committee this week despite teachers’ objections. Indiana is weighing proposals to weaken unions. Union members in Pennsylvania, who are not necessarily facing an attack on their bargaining rights, said Friday that they planned to wear red next week to show solidarity with the workers in Wisconsin.

    In many states, Republicans who came to power in the November elections, often by defeating union-backed Democrats, are taking aim not only at union wages, but at union power as they face budget gaps in the years ahead.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/19/us/politics/19states.html?_r=2&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha2

    I think a lot of this is ideological.

    Op-Ed Columnist
    America Goes Dark
    By PAUL KRUGMAN

    The lights are going out all over America — literally. Colorado Springs has made headlines with its desperate attempt to save money by turning off a third of its streetlights, but similar things are either happening or being contemplated across the nation, from Philadelphia to Fresno.

    »
    Meanwhile, a country that once amazed the world with its visionary investments in transportation, from the Erie Canal to the Interstate Highway System, is now in the process of unpaving itself: in a number of states, local governments are breaking up roads they can no longer afford to maintain, and returning them to gravel.

    And a nation that once prized education — that was among the first to provide basic schooling to all its children — is now cutting back. Teachers are being laid off; programs are being canceled; in Hawaii, the school year itself is being drastically shortened. And all signs point to even more cuts ahead.

    We’re told that we have no choice, that basic government functions — essential services that have been provided for generations — are no longer affordable. And it’s true that state and local governments, hit hard by the recession, are cash-strapped. But they wouldn’t be quite as cash-strapped if their politicians were willing to consider at least some tax increases.

    And the federal government, which can sell inflation-protected long-term bonds at an interest rate of only 1.04 percent, isn’t cash-strapped at all. It could and should be offering aid to local governments, to protect the future of our infrastructure and our children.

    But Washington is providing only a trickle of help, and even that grudgingly. We must place priority on reducing the deficit, say Republicans and “centrist” Democrats. And then, virtually in the next breath, they declare that we must preserve tax cuts for the very affluent, at a budget cost of $700 billion over the next decade.

    In effect, a large part of our political class is showing its priorities: given the choice between asking the richest 2 percent or so of Americans to go back to paying the tax rates they paid during the Clinton-era boom, or allowing the nation’s foundations to crumble — literally in the case of roads, figuratively in the case of education — they’re choosing the latter.

    It’s a disastrous choice in both the short run and the long run.

    In the short run, those state and local cutbacks are a major drag on the economy, perpetuating devastatingly high unemployment.

    It’s crucial to keep state and local government in mind when you hear people ranting about runaway government spending under President Obama. Yes, the federal government is spending more, although not as much as you might think. But state and local governments are cutting back. And if you add them together, it turns out that the only big spending increases have been in safety-net programs like unemployment insurance, which have soared in cost thanks to the severity of the slump.

    That is, for all the talk of a failed stimulus, if you look at government spending as a whole you see hardly any stimulus at all. And with federal spending now trailing off, while big state and local cutbacks continue, we’re going into reverse.

    But isn’t keeping taxes for the affluent low also a form of stimulus? Not so you’d notice. When we save a schoolteacher’s job, that unambiguously aids employment; when we give millionaires more money instead, there’s a good chance that most of that money will just sit idle.

    And what about the economy’s future? Everything we know about economic growth says that a well-educated population and high-quality infrastructure are crucial. Emerging nations are making huge efforts to upgrade their roads, their ports and their schools. Yet in America we’re going backward.

    How did we get to this point? It’s the logical consequence of three decades of antigovernment rhetoric, rhetoric that has convinced many voters that a dollar collected in taxes is always a dollar wasted, that the public sector can’t do anything right.

    The antigovernment campaign has always been phrased in terms of opposition to waste and fraud — to checks sent to welfare queens driving Cadillacs, to vast armies of bureaucrats uselessly pushing paper around. But those were myths, of course; there was never remotely as much waste and fraud as the right claimed. And now that the campaign has reached fruition, we’re seeing what was actually in the firing line: services that everyone except the very rich need, services that government must provide or nobody will, like lighted streets, drivable roads and decent schooling for the public as a whole.

    So the end result of the long campaign against government is that we’ve taken a disastrously wrong turn. America is now on the unlit, unpaved road to nowhere.

    No link was given by the person quoting this, sorry.

    Couldn’t find the bit about turning roads to gravel roads. I will be happy to search for that as soon as any Tea Party adherents can give me any facts, concrete examples etc.

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    Maxine

    Hey it was a genuine compliment Wendy! And the streetlights exampe is in my post directly above this one.

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    Maxine

    Baldric, the first name of our Prime Minister is Julia. Respect for the position of PM should mean you use her correct name.

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    Maxine

    Hmmmmm given our present PM is plucky and does not sidestep challenges I think she would stand her ground and make the silly convoy of the innocents go around her.

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    Maxine

    And for Australian tea[snip], someone totted up Liberal costings/election promises:

    $27 Billion (Carbon Tax repeal) + $11 Billion (MRRT repeal) + $7-8 Billion (Personal income tax cuts) + $11 Billion (election costings) = $56-57 Billion

    The Coalition need to find $56-57 Billion to fund their commitments. Judging by their woeful performance with election costings, savings plan you could easily double that. If you lot want to cut cut cut I suppose you oppose Abbott’s Paid Parental Leave (Nanny subsidy) proposal?

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    Wendy

    Maxine:
    August 12th, 2011 at 12:22 am
    Hey it was a genuine compliment Wendy! And the streetlights exampe is in my post directly above this one.

    Do you also stab a person in the back when you give them a cuddle????
    No Maxine, that piece by Krugman is an OPINION piece and is not specific examples. There IS a difference.

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    Wendy

    Maxine:
    August 12th, 2011 at 12:25 am
    Baldric, the first name of our Prime Minister is Julia. Respect for the position of PM should mean you use her correct name.

    Respect is earned. Unless of course, you respect people who out and out lie.

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    The Black Adder

    Maxine,

    I do not know why you are on this blog?

    You cannot respect a PM that lies 6 days before an election!

    Geez maxy baby, things like that get Convoys started :)

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    Mark D.

    Post 1000?

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    Now look – here’s an inexplicable mystery of wordpress. MarkD indeed won the coveted, highly prized first ever #1000 comment on the jonova blog. I’ve moved his comment and all the previous ones to this page, but 5 – 10 have disappeared, and spookily, the top of the comments thread says there are #1027 comments here. No. That doesn’t make sense, I don’t know where the phantom comments are, or where the missing comments got stuck either. We could call this the Bermuda thread?

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    brc

    My guess is the missing 5 comments went into the spam bin.

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    Cate S

    Here you go…a bit of light entertainment – bring on the Convoys! :)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uV1USxnweY

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    davet916

    Joanne,

    I love your site and the issues you cover. I wish our country had half the heart yours does. You do a bang-up job, keep after it.

    This is way off topic. It regards your home page. At the end of each article summary, you list the number of comments. Could you add the date/time of the latest comment so even if the blog is way down on the list it will be easy to see if it is still actively bubbling away?

    Thanks,

    Dave

    Dave, point taken, I don’t know if I can add that, but if you click on the link on the top right column – “Latest comments and news” you can see where the last 30 comments have been made and find out which threads are active. — JN

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