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Mann sues: Minnesotans say “Go ahead. Make my day”

A joint post with Baa Humbug

It’s all about audacity.

Michael Mann’s contribution to modern science may one day be remembered as the guy who made it statistically possible to get  a thousand year temperature graph using any local telephone directory as a data source. (Who needs tree-rings?)

If you were a guy who’d been caught producing scientific work so inept that people could pour in random data and get the same “curve”, then you might take a satirical video on the chin (or crawl into a hole). But if you’re Michael Mann, and you also used the wrong proxy, you hid your data, used graphs upside down, and invented deceptive “tricks” to hide declines, then you might call your lawyers.

The Minnestoans for Global Warming (M4GW) made the hilariously popular Hide The Decline video, which has now been removed from YouTube. Mann claims they defamed him “by leaving viewers with the incorrect impression that he falsified data to generate desired results in connection with his research activities”. The Minnesotans said “please do”, and responded undaunted by producing a new version (see below).

The  Minnesotan’s reply:

 

“Minnesotans 4 Global Warming hope Mann will proceed with his lawsuit so that the legal discovery process will force exposure of data and methods Mann has still not released and that the official whitewash inquiries refuse to investigate.”

And Jeff Davis of the No Cap-and-Trade Coalition stated:

“I hope Dr. Mann does sue us,” said Davis, “The legal discovery process would give us an opportunity to expose Dr. Mann’s research – or lack thereof to public and legal scrutiny.”

They produced a report Michael Mann: Defamed or defined by “Hide The Decline”?

Was Mann defamed?

How can you defame this man? The hockeyschtick blog suggests that if Mann pursued the case he would need to show that the M4GW team spoke untruths and knew them to be so.  This is the man who invented the trick to hide the decline, it is the “Mike” from “Mike’s Nature Trick”.

This is the man who rewrote history. He took out the medieval warm period even though hundreds of previous studies and thousands of boreholes showed it was, in all likelihood, a real global phenomenon.

Audacity is what it takes to claim you have been vindicated after a panel of statistical experts (the Wegman Report) took it apart and came down on the side of your critics. Master of Spin is what it takes to hold up the NAS Report (aka the North Report) as if it’s a great endorsement. Yet Mann is audacious enough to try. (It worked before!)

Mann, April 2010:

“I would note that our ’98 article was reviewed by the US National Academy of Sciences (NAS), the highest scientific authority in the United States, and given a clean bill of health,” he said. “In fact, the statistician on the panel, Peter Bloomfield, a member of the Royal Statistical Society, came to the opposite conclusion of Prof Hand.”

As The HockeySchtick team points out, that NAS report actually said:

“Mann’s methods had no validation skill significantly different from zero.” (i.e. it was statistically worthless).

McIntyre and McKitrick said Mann used the wrong proxy and would have got totally different results without the “strip-barks”. The NAS panel agreed, saying Mann’s results are “strongly dependent” on the strip-bark data (pp. 106-107), and warning that strip-bark data should not be used in this type of research (p. 50).

Bloomfield said: We had much the same misgivings about his work that was documented at much greater length by Dr. Wegman.

The updated Hide The Decline Video

Big h/t to Baa Humbug who helped to put this together and research it.

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Mann sues: Minnesotans say "Go ahead. Make my day", 10.0 out of 10 based on 3 ratings

Tiny Url for this post: http://tinyurl.com/2d52rgv

124 comments to Mann sues: Minnesotans say “Go ahead. Make my day”

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    Ike

    The video is down – JibJab.


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    Tony

    Of course it would be very revealing if Mann carried out his threat, but people don’t normally sue the truth.


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    janama

    I can’t watch the new version but I like the old one and it’s still available on the web.

    OT – this evening on the late night ABC they had a volcanologist from Leicester University – Dr Mike Branney. One of the listeners asked him how much CO2 did a volcano emit. His reply was – we don’t know, no one has managed to measure it. he’s currently working with a team researching Yellowstone.


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    Steve McIntyre’s recent post “Mann of Oak” is worth a read. Based on the the release of Irish tree ring data to Doug Keenan via a successful FOI challenge. (My bolds)
    Some snips…
    “But last year Baillie and his colleague Ana Garcia-Suárez published a study showing that Irish oak growth rings are a good proxy for summer rainfall, but not for temperature.”

    “Dr Rob Wilson, who runs the University of St Andrews tree ring laboratory, agreed that oaks were virtually useless as a temperature proxy, but said that scientists must now be vigilant about making data available.”

    “Notwithstanding the considered opinion of Baillie and Wilson that oaks are “virtually useless as a temperature proxy” and “dangerous” to use in a temperature reconstruction, no fewer than 119 oak chronologies were used in Mann et al 2008. Among Mann’s oak chronologies were three Baillie chronologies”


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    Mark D.

    Jo the “new” video is not working.


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    Baa Humbug

    Looks like JibJab media has filed a DMCA against the Minnesotans.

    From wickipidea

    The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is a United States copyright law that implements two 1996 treaties of the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO). It criminalizes production and dissemination of technology, devices, or services intended to circumvent measures (commonly known as digital rights management or DRM) that control access to copyrighted works. It also criminalizes the act of circumventing an access control, whether or not there is actual infringement of copyright itself. In addition, the DMCA heightens the penalties for copyright infringement on the Internet. Passed on October 12, 1998 by a unanimous vote in the United States Senate and signed into law by President Bill Clinton on October 28, 1998, the DMCA amended Title 17 of the United States Code to extend the reach of copyright, while limiting the liability of the providers of on-line services for copyright infringement by their users.

    “JibJab Media Inc. is an online media company that has been pioneering digital entertainment production and distribution since 1999. In 2007, JibJab launched its popular JibJab Sendables brand of eCards. As of June 30, 2008, over 170 comedians, writers, artists, musicians and performers had created over 1,200 titles in the JibJab Sendables library.”


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    Ross

    Good to see you highlighting Mann’s upside down graphs Jo. The fact that he did this twice with the same data ( two different papers published by Science using the same data on two different arguments ) is to me just as bad if not worse than the hockey stick debacle.
    I raised this “manipulation” on another site discussing Mann’s games and was told by an AGW “expert” that it was not an error , Mann just used a different statistical technique !!!


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    Graeme Bird

    This serial fraud is surely bluffing. He’s going to pull out of it, or someone with a very long reach must be able to rig up the right judge for him.


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    Henry chance

    The little video quotes one of Mann’s e-mails. Kinda hard to claim being smeared when you are quoted.
    Mann made some very stupid comments by e-mail and has hangups seeing his work in public. The dishonest pretend scientist could have prevented this if he had cooperated with FOIA requests.


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    MattB

    Seeing as they pulled the 1st video, and made a 2nd one, I guess they realised the 1st one was of dubious nature. It only seems to validate the legal threat.


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    Graeme Bird

    There is something weird going on here. Where people think if they are able to study for many years on the old dot.mom that this gives them license. Its like the PHD is a license, not to do what they have been taught, but rather to do what they choose to. It feels like there is a lot of complicity all around on this score. I mean not on this forum. And not necessarily in 2010. Because here we all are deeply sick of these people and those who lie on their behalf.

    But it feels like its akin to Doctors professional ethics or something. Like your eye Doctor knows that the operation you had was a terrible botch job but he isn’t about to criticise his colleague. He says it would be unethical to do so. But does not seem to realise that authentic ethics and professional ethics are not the same thing and in many cases may be radically opposed.

    Perhaps its not so much the case with this subject right now, given the polarisation. I was thinking this way when I saw this monstrous and angry screed from some moron called John Mashey. Bigshot apparently. The way he talked about himself he appeared to be magnificently qualified as a scientist, perhaps an entrepreneur, a star of business and research as well as star and screen by the tone of it. Yet there was no hint of a committment to the scientific method in anything he said.

    If Mashey had merely gone through the standard processes that one would think would be learnt in the first two years at university, he should have realised he was backing total fraud, the biggest act of wrong-way-Corriganism in history, and a mean-spirited movement to boot. A movement which would appear to like starvation, high food prices, and colder winter mornings for the LapLanders. A stupid movement. Moronic in every last atomised constituent part of its argument. A movement so full of superstitious fear it would be sent into advanced trembling, should little Yukos be fortunate enough to see his first butterfly.

    What an idiot Mashey is. What a pillock. Birds new law of science is that the scientist becomes a moron the minute he loses his humility. That second where he thinks he is big enough to run on instinct rather then put one foot in front of the other and go through the process in the best and most disciplined way that he can muster …. thats when he becomes a hindrance, if not a carrier of some terrible pathogenic meme-virus.

    I cannot believe what an idiot Mashey made of himself at unleashed. It was as if he thought that an hypothesis proves itself because the head-case went and restated the hypothesis and was angrily treating his restatement as if it were evidence-proof-positive itself.

    Do any of you know this clown? Its the combination of big-noting himself and manifest idiocy which made such an impression on me.

    I don’t know where this ends. Perhaps we need the total disasters that may be on the way from some already exploded supernova to release us from the enslavement of all encumbent bigheads and their dysfunctional networks.


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    Bulldust

    Took me five seconds on youtube to find another copy of the original video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UhykvGaD0

    Al Gore must be livid that the intarwebs, which he invented, is helping to disseminate this heretical message. I am sure that a few seconds of additional searching would uncover copies of the newer M4GW video. That is the beauty of the internet, it disseminates the message regardless of how governments try to control the flow of information.

    Since the early days in the 1990s I considered the web as one of the most powerful tools for democracy. Hence China’s attempts to stem the flow of information on the internet, Australia’s push for filters, and the corporate push against net neutrality. It is all about controlling the flow of information.


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    Bulldust

    Incidently, how stupid is Michael Mann? Did he think he would draw more or less negative attention to himself by launching the law suit? I mean, really…


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    MattB

    I’ve only encountered a smart, humble, patient, friendly and Cheerful John Mashey on the interwebs Graeme. Not sure who you came across.


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    Bernd Felsche

    Graeme Bird @12:

    I knew John Mashey a long time ago. He’s a clever man, but not so clever to be beyond fooling himself. I doubt that anybody is immune.

    You won’t get anywhere by calling him names. He holds his opinions precious. You have to exploit what he knows by first listening to what he has to say in order to make him think. Joanne is probably more adept at doing that sort of thing on a population-wide basis; with no/little prior knowledge of what is known by individuals, in order to incite individual to think for themselves.

    I know (too) many people who are similarly mistaken; when they should know better. They are generally ignorant of Popperian falsifiability, as that is not part of Science or Engineering undergraduate studies, as far as I can tell and recall.

    It also seems a common malaise amongst the more highly-educated to trust the judgement of others instead of going back to first principles when asked to comment on “novel” paradigms.


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    Graeme Bird

    “You won’t get anywhere by calling him names.”

    Come on mate. The guys a moron. He is afterall a CO2-bedwetter. How can he be clever if he’s fallen for that? Read the first half of my post again, and see if you haven’t fallen for the self-same syndrome I just got through describing. And if thats not good enough you try making the case for CO2-bedwetting. A case manifestly idiotic in every last constituent part of its argument.

    He’s not clever he’s a moron.

    Get that straight.

    You aren’t going to get anywhere bending over backwards for your utterly moronic colleagues. I’m not wrong. If I’m wrong you make his case for him.


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    Graeme Bird

    “I’ve only encountered a smart, humble, patient, friendly and Cheerful John Mashey on the interwebs Graeme. Not sure who you came across.”

    The real one. He’s an idiot.


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    Mark D.

    Knowing a little bit about the courts in Minnesota, I would say with reasonable confidence that there is no “long arm” of influence here. MN is a ways drive from Chicago, far enough to sanitize the dirty arm of politics.


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    [...] temperature graph using any local telephone directory as a data source. (Who needs tree-rings?) Mann sues: Minnesotans say “Go ahead. Make my day” « JoNova . __________________ . …just some thoughts from a nomadic plebeian Bio – [...]


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    Graeme Bird

    Mark D you may not be taking into account the fact that you are not the US anymore. You are Barryland aka Cook County And Surrounding Districts. That Mann would try this on is not a good sign. Who knows what strings this lunatic movement can pull?

    Hopefully it will all work out.


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    Mark D.

    You mean Kook county?

    Point taken and understood…..reality too: MN courts managed to put one Sen. Al Franken into office. Perhaps my confidence is shaken………


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    ..the guy who made it statistically possible to get a thousand year temperature graph using any local telephone directory as a data source. (Who needs tree-rings?)

    Telephone directories were made from “trees” and allow “rings” on telephones. Is it any wonder he made this simple mistake?!?! ;-D


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    Mike Davis

    Matt:
    If you think John is a nice reasonable guy then that is all I need to know and it explains Graeme’s feeling that the Person is a brainless Idiot.


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    Mike Davis

    WOW!
    This guy’s credentials are amazing! He is promoted by the ever popular site Desmogblog and Littleless thinks the world of him. I think he may be an Al Gore Wannabe!
    I could not resist! I had to see for myself!

    The error I found in the video was claiming : Making up data the old hard way! might be replaced by: Making up data my own way! or Making up data the Mannian way! Michael Mann is a leader in his field of fantasy science!


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    Neil Fisher

    Matt B wrote:

    Seeing as they pulled the 1st video, and made a 2nd one, I guess they realised the 1st one was of dubious nature. It only seems to validate the legal threat.

    Just to be clear here Matt, there are two issues: copyright and libel. They pulled the first video because of fears about the former. The second video has no such issues, only the potential libel issues, which it would seem to me are non-starters – satirsation of public figures (as in the video) is quite acceptable in the USA from a legal standpoint.


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    The Ill Tempered Klavier

    I wish I was still rockin’ for a living. I’d have been leading off my second set with that gorgeous parody of Draggin’ the Line every night for months now.

    What we have from this whole mess is several people shown in clear focus doing things that should forfeit any right to claim the title “scientist.” I don’t expect to see them marched out to somber drums and stood at attention while their lab coats are ripped off and burned any time soon. It just seems appropriate.


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    Bernd Felsche

    Graeme Bird @17:

    Get a grip. Stop throwing insults; especially out of the blue and at people who aren’t here to defend themselves.

    Mashey is NOT a colleague of mine. Nor has he ever been.

    I do not agree with him because I’ve done the independent thinking and the number-crunching to gain an understanding of the (in)significance of CO2. I don’t go around calling people who don’t understand it “morons”. I try to explain, using their current level of (mis)understanding as a reference point.

    Classifying people as “morons” based on a first glance is bigotry. People have as much right to be wrong as they have to be right. If they are wrong, then shouting insults at them only makes them stop listening to what you have to say.

    It is much easier to invite them to explain in their own words why your rationally deduced point of view, supported by empirical evidence, is wrong.

    Or are you simply being religiously skeptic? Messianic? Insisting that people believe you because you believe that you have seen the light?


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    Ted O'Brien

    There are many reasons apart from the science itself for scepticism of the AGW story. High on the list is the hysteria with which the AGW notion is promoted. Why so many lies? Why the vilification of reasoned criticism and the people who produce it? What is the underlying objective of this whole push? A push which they feel must be promoted by deception?

    The AGW story has been promoted primarily by politicians. The scientists backing them are mostly either in their employ for the purpose of working on this supposed problem, or in the employ of “environmental” groups.

    Look around. The ETS which the Australian government attempted to force on us included a tax on emissions and poorly researched supposed emissions from the farming industry, but studiously excluded credits for the carbon sequestration which makes up one side of the agricultural carbon cycle.

    No intelligent person could fail to see the inequity in this policy. This tax had it been implemented would have quickly bankrupted Australia’s grazing industries, and would have more slowly bankrupted much of Australia’s other farming activities.

    Whatever for? Why would they want to do that? This would hugely increase the cost to Australian consumers of farm product. It would totally destroy Australia’s export income from farm products. It would create famine in those countries which depend on Australia for farm supplies.

    60% of Australia’s land area is used for grazing. Bankrupting the owners would enable the government to direct that land into new ownership without compensating the present owners. This would virtually complete the collectivisation of Australian industry. Other industries are mostly already in collective ownership, where the management is dominated by “institutional” owners, unions and government regulations.

    In the early 1930s Stalin quite deliberately starved tens of millions of his political opponents in the Ukraine and elsewhere to death as he imposed his collectivisation policies on agriculture. If you read the history of that you will see a disturbing similarity in what has been done and is being done to Australian agriculture over the last 27 years. Stalin would be proud of them.


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    I’d suggest he consider that he should “Mann” up and admit what he’s been up to. Perhaps that would be a better way to deal with this vs. hiding behind the skirts of the whitewash investigation by Penn State like a little mama’s boy. He also evidenly has no sense of humor. I think it’s healty to be able to laugh at yourself.


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    Meanwhile, in other news, scientists who have been receiving public money to do their research, are being forced to make their results public. Hopefully this will be a real precedent for the future. From the article:

    Phil Willis, a Liberal Democrat MP and chairman of the Science and Technology Select Committee, said that scientists now needed to work on the presumption that if research is publicly funded, the data ought to be made publicly available.

    “Following the Climategate furore at the University of East Anglia the message came out loud and clear from the select committee report and from Lord Oxburgh’s report that data has to be made publicly available in order that there is no question of anyone hiding anything,” he said.

    “Any university or scientist that hasn’t got that message needs a total rethink of the way they do research. Every time they don’t do it, they give ammunition to climate deniers and sceptics.”

    Benny Peiser, of the Global Warming Policy Foundation, said: “It is regrettable that it has come to FoI requests. It’s almost as though Climategate never happened.”

    A shame the MP in question had to slip in the “denier” label in there, but otherwise very good points.


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    MattB

    Mike Davis “Matt: If you think John is a nice reasonable guy then that is all I need to know and it explains Graeme’s feeling that the Person is a brainless Idiot.”

    wow. Just wow. logic defying. wow.


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    MattB

    Bernd in #28. From your surprise I can only assume you’ve not encountered the brutal and pulverising ice age that is Graeme Bird before.


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    Bernd Felsche

    MattB @33:

    I’m not surprised. I’m disappointed. I give people the benefit of a doubt at the start. That’s a form of prejudice but generally results in a nett, mutual benefit.

    Graeme has shown in the past that he can construct a rational argument at times.

    Insults are a sign of a lazy mind, dominated by emotion. Likely it’s blog-fatigue as his mention of Dr Mashey is unrelated to this thread; and he’s still raging from another conflict. I don’t defend that, but I do understand. BTDTGTTS.

    I have enough patience and stubbornness to continue to constructively work towards a greater nett understanding though logic, reason and observation.

    I don’t have a life; I can afford to be logical.


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    Dave N

    Bulldust:

    Delusional people have a hard time discerning what’s good for them.

    I’ll bet that Mann knows that a lawsuit would probably end up in a bad result for himself; the delusional part is that he apparently thinks it is a good thing to make the threat. If someone takes him on, he’ll lose badly, and making the threat in the first place isn’t good for his image, or for the alarmist movement in general.


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    Dave N

    Incidentally, the HTD 2 video is here, where it is safe from YouTube’s very suspiciously biased removal policy.


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    Bulldust

    I see Australia’s “newest think tank”, the Grattan Institute, released a paper today arguing against protection of EITEs (Emission-Intensive Trade-Exposed industries). You can see their links here:

    http://www.grattan.edu.au/pub_page/report_energy1.html

    What they completely gloss over is the lack of a need of a price for carbon in the first place, which is a grotesque omission when you consider how they advertise themselves as being indepedent and “evidence-based.”

    So let’s see how indepdent this institute is… here’s their founding members:

    “Founding Members
    Grattan Institute is grateful for the support of our founding members: the Australian Government, the State Government of Victoria, The University of Melbourne and BHP Billiton. They contributed to an endowment that provides ongoing funds towards Grattan Institute’s programs.

    Their support was structured to maintain Grattan Institute’s independence, and is not conditional on Grattan Institute undertaking particular programs or positions. Grattan Institute’s independence is further safeguarded by its experienced and diverse board.”

    Hmmm anyone spot the heavy hand of government? I do!
    John Daley, the CEO of the institute got a story into the Fin Review as well.


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    Rereke Whaakaro

    janama: # 4

    Thanks for the tip-off about Dr Mike Branney. We will send the enforcers to see him directly. We need to make an example. No scientist must be allowed to admit they don’t know something.

    If we start having scientists admitting that they don’t know things, where will it end?

    The non-thinking public are confused as it is. If we start have having scientists saying things like, “stuffed if I know”, or “your guess is as good as mine, mate”, who knows where it will end, and how it might impact our future potential funding?

    No, it is imperative that all scientists must have an opinion on everything, and even if they don’t know, they must make something up, and phrase it in terms that will sound sufficiently precise, and use impossibly long sentence structures so as to encourage the non-thinking public to accept the stated conjecture rather than admit that they are too non-thinking to understand what was said.

    Note for any passing trolls: This sarcastic comment is intended for the use of sceptics who, by definition, do not take everything they read literally, or even seriously.


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    Bulldust

    PS> Just read the John Daley Fin Review article… he said “Australia’s carbon emissions are the highest per capita in the developed world.”

    This is simply wrong in fact. As a lawyer he should be a tad more careful to stick to facts, especially as he represents an institute that claims to be “evidence-based.”

    even using Wikipedia it is easy to see how he is wrong:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita

    Perhaps he doesn’t consider countries like the USA and Luxembourg to be developed? Let alone the very high CO2/capita emitters in the middle east…


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    MattB

    Given :
    1)wiki’s figures only go to 2007
    2)the USA is mired in recession while Australia steams ahead
    3) in the three years to 2007 the USA dropped from 19.5 to 19.1, and Australia’s rose from 17 to 18.8, and Luxembourg’s dropping from 24.5 to 22.4…

    I’d not be too quick to hang Daley’s report based on Wikipedia, especially in relation to US figures.


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    Rereke Whaakaro

    Ted O’Brien: #29

    Nicely put Ted.

    Have a thumbs-up …


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    Bulldust

    Oh jeez… MattB defending the indefensible again. These data take a while to get out … the UN is usually a year or three behind on this kind of stuff. But feel free to go and find more recent data mate… be my guest. I am quite certain Australia will still not be the highest per capita CO2 emitter, given where countries like Qatar are on the chart.

    Knock yourself out Matt.


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    MattB

    Ok Bulldust – I guess I’m just reading the report here: http://www.grattan.edu.au/pub_page/report_energy1.html
    and the sentence here:
    “Our greenhouse gas
    emissions are amongst the highest in the developed world, both
    per person and per unit of GDP.2″

    With reference 2 being:
    World Resources Institute (2009)

    World Resources Institute (2009) Climate Analysis Indicators Tool version 7.0,
    http://cait.wri.org/

    But sure you can reference wikipedia if you prefer.


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    MattB

    Sorry pressed send there… that quote from the report says “amongst the highest”. I can;t access the AFR but if he does say “the highest” then he is misquoting his report.


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    Bulldust

    Perhaps as a lawyer (at the risk of repeating myself) he should learn to repeat his own words accurately. My word it would be interesting to get him up on the witness stand.


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    Graeme Bird

    Bernd.

    No no. You get a grip. Mashey is an idiot. If not make his case for him in the most sympathetic way that you can.

    Get serious. You say he’s supposed to be a clever scientist. How could he possibly fall for this racket? If he’s not an idiot, there must be some sort of excuse you can put forward for him.

    Lets go over it again. Every constituent part of the argument for this racket is ridiculous. So how could he possibly fall for it were he not an idiot? We obviously have a lot of people way too impressed with themselves here.


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    MattB

    Ok ok on this occasion I should read think type. He says highest per capita ( found the op ed on the GI website), and the report says amongst highest per capita and perGDP.

    if you go to the WRI and head to http://www.wri.org/publication/navigating-the-numbers

    the journalist’s summary has a graph on page 2 of 8 that has Australia as the highest per capita emitter of GHGs at 7.3.

    So there you have it he makes a statement that is backed up by his source. astounding. these are nations bound by Kyoto.


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    Graeme Bird

    “I’m not surprised. I’m disappointed. I give people the benefit of a doubt at the start. ”

    Oh for Pete’s sake get it together you dim bulb. This is not an issue that came up last month? If we were dealing with this for the first time, or even if it were 2003 you might make a case of it. He’s a moron. Live with it. So you know him. He’s a scientist. You are a scientist. And you imagine that you must be on some sort of exalted plain by which even if he’s wrong he’s still above most mere mortals. Well thats not true. He’s a blockhead. And you are a blockhead if you cannot find some sort of excuse for him.

    Which part of this argument do you think could let this idiot Mashey off the hook? We’ve just got to change our view of who is and isn’t a smart guy.


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    Bulldust

    MattB:

    The reason it is annoying is because I hear the stat quoted all the time in the media, and it is right up there with crap like “Perth being the world’s windiest/most remote city” or whatever. None of them are true, but they are supposed to appeal to the emotions of the reader.

    Australia is NOT the highest emitter of CO2 in absolute terms, per capita or per $GDP terms. Just simply not the case. End of story.

    The fact that you blindly jump in to support his case, as you do in so many other instances, is what bemuses me. Generally if I get involved in a stats debate you can bet I have a clue about the stats involved, because of my background and job.


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    Keith H

    On the subject of tree ring data, the late John L Daly demonstrated how easy it is for researchers whether by accident or design, to present a deeply flawed report, have it peer reviewed and published. The following is his preamble to the short article containing his detailed analysis, which is still well worth a read.

    “In the politics of greenhouse `science’, some scientific papers, fully peer-reviewed, have been published in key scientific journals, the ideological support for the warming scenario being the crucial factor.

    In a noted paper, (“Climatic Change in Tasmania Inferred from a 1089-Year Tree-Ring Chronology of Huon Pine”, Cook et al. 1991, `Science’ v.253, p.1266- 1268), An American tree-ring expert, Ed Cook and his team, presented tree ring data gathered from Huon Pine trees on Mount Read in western Tasmania, and correlated them against historical temperature data for Tasmania. The study received widespread media publicity, as it’s conclusions reinforced the greenhouse effect hysteria promoted by some climate modelers.”

    http://www.john-daly.com/huonpine.htm


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    MattB

    Bulldust I’m not blindly supporting. I checked your source, said we were damn close to the US according to Wiki 3 years ago, then checked his source which confirms we are highest per capita out of kyoto nations. You can’t accuse me of not at least looking at the actual data as opposed to blindly jumping in?

    Day in day out there are clearly wrong beat up skeptical links put on this site, and I’ve yet to see a skeptic call a spade a spade and rip them to shreads? Talking about blind support;)


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    MattB

    by link – I dop not mean the blog owner but regular posters with random links to bad stories.


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    janama

    Rereke Whaakaro: @ 38

    It’s serious mate!! I seriously don’t know so if any of you sceptics want to challenge me – F**K off! I don’t know what I’m talking about but as a scientist I HAVE THAT RIGHT! I’ll f**kin keep my hard earned data to myself and you can piss off!

    Yeah, shame about that – it wasn’t always like that.


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    Ted O'Brien

    Already this has been censored twice on Youtube by copyright claims. Are these claims sound, or are they bogus? The alarmists seem to have new censorship weapon.


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    Ted O'Brien

    Regarding Australia’s per capita carbon emissions. A lot of these emissions are on behalf of other countries and should not be debited to Australia, a notable example being exported aluminium.


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    Bulldust

    MattB:

    I have no doubt there is the occasional error in OP articles here, and Jo is not here to verify the veracity of links nor arguments made by respondants. What is your point? This is a blog… that is what happens. I guess we should be happy that you are here as the gatekeeper for the truth?

    It is a rare occasion that you acknowledge one of your many, many errors. There is an acronym for that … OWNID… Often Wrong, Never In Doubt.


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    Bulldust

    Ted O’Brien @ 55:

    I have made this point before and started a PhD on the subject, but it actually weakens the argument in a way… the fact is we aren’t the highest emitters of CO2 per capita.

    As you say, of course, this is a meaningless statistic for a country such as Australia which exports most of it’s energy either directly (as energy fuels) or indirectly (embodied in other products sucha as aluminium, for instance).

    If I had the time or inclination I would tear Daley’s article word from word because it is about AGW & ETS advocacy and every line is biased by that slant. To give the impression that carbon should have a price, for starters, implies the a priori assumption that CO2 is causing harmful warming. He has no proved scientific basis whatsoever for this starting assumption so the whole article is moot.

    Follow the money – his institute’s major funders are the Victorian and Federal Governments… what “outcomes” would you expect from such a politically-leveraged source? And warmists (falsely for the most part) accuse skeptics of being funded by Big Oil. Give me a break… another of the institute’s major funders is BHP, a petroleum producer…


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    my take on what the Minnesotans are doing differs. But whatever,
    HAPPY EARTH DAY EVERYONE!
    (click my URL for 1970s predictions)


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    Bernd Felsche

    Ted O’Brien @54:

    Re Copyright, it depends on the actual laws of the land/state/province/shire/…

    The USA eventually signed up the the Berne Convention, which says that they agree to it and will make laws accordingly … like e.g. Kyoto. ;-)

    That Convention permit fair use for research, critisism, parody, etc. and even derivative works.The Convention btw deals with automatically protecting work; which (I understand) is why “All Rights Reserved” appears so rarely nowadays.

    It is VERY hard to imagine how the claims could be valid. Mann is a public figure.

    The USA’s legal system is however distorted heavily by litigious actions initiated to protect those with a lot of money from having their misdeeds exposed. It’s worked well for another -ology which sprouted from bad science-fiction penned by psychopaths; so it will work for the Church of Climatology, notably funded by the Imperious Priesthood.


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    Feuillet

    Hmm, I assume this comment section is talking about the video, why are at least 1/3 of the threads here are quite off topic and entirely baseless statements?

    By the way the second video posted by No cap and trade coalition has been pull off by youtube, who uses the same excuse of copyright despite it consist no photo of Michael Mann. I can not how anyone can claim this is not a act of censorship when one tries (and succeeded) to remove something with false accusation.


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    Tel

    In term of per-capita emissions, a lot of people forget how the accounting works. Koyoto is designed so the emissions tally of a fossil fuel source falls on the country that digs up the fuel out of the ground. Thus, the Australian people are accounted as “emitting” all the coal that gets exported. The theory is that countries like Australia would be encouraged to raise the price of their exports and thus reduce emissions by selling less.

    I read the brief CAIT report which says:

    For the four highest per capita emitters – the gulf states of Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and Kuwait – this is because these countries have relatively small populations, but produce GHG-intensive commodities for export.

    So naturally the oil producing nations get a big whack just like Australia does.

    Strangely the proposed CPRS scheme works differently on the export market and tries to penalize the Australian people as if they were personally responsible for all the emissions.

    http://www.climatechange.gov.au/minister/wong/2009/media-releases/August/mr20090814a.aspx

    This means that when a coal producer directly exports coal to Japan, or any other country, there is no liability under the CPRS bill for emissions embodied in that coal.

    Unless the Koyoto rules got changed, or we are moving into a new system, the CPRS seems to be yet another exercise in bashing householders, small business and ensuring that Australia stays a banana republic, not competitive at anything other than loading boats with primary produce.


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    Bernd Felsche

    Feuillet @60:

    You can be say what you believe to be true. You can be honest. You can abide by the laws.

    But that doesn’t stop somebody who’s well funded from litigating with civil action against you until you are bankrupt. The law’s protection against such things is at best remedial.

    M4GW are being pragmatic and no longer want to play Google/YouTube games. So they’ve put the new video on Vimeo.


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    Tel

    As you say, of course, this is a meaningless statistic for a country such as Australia which exports most of it’s energy either directly (as energy fuels) or indirectly (embodied in other products sucha as aluminium, for instance).

    If you export Aluminium made from coal-fired electricity then you would get hit by the CPRS and need to buy carbon credits. On the other hand, if you export straight coal and bauxite then you need no carbon credits for that. A total recipe for ensuring that as many value-add stages happen somewhere else, not here.


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    Rereke Whaakaro

    Bulldust: # 57

    Haven’t you heard? Carbon is so passé.

    “Fund to tap growing demand for water”.

    “A fund that capitalises on the world’s growing need for water will be launched today.”

    According to Romy Udanga, writing in The Dominion Post (Wellington, NZ), a managed fund is being established to “… provide investors with an efficient and diversified access to the global water industry”. See here.

    The world has gone mad.


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    Rereke Whaakaro

    P Gosselin: #58

    And Happy “Lenin’s Birthday” to you friend.


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    Henry chance

    It is earth day in America. Lenin’s birthday. The earth day operation is how we peddle our western Imperialism now. We can judge your bad behavior regarding cutting down a tree or eating meat. You all have been bad. Very bad and Michael Mann says it is warming our planet to a tipping point.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFUDEmMjC-c
    Many people no longer care about our trees.


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    hunter

    Mann does not own the copyrights of the amages used, so he has once again filed a phony paper.
    Mann’s lawyers are well aware that in the US fair use protections extend to copyrighted images when used for parody, so they are not only assisting Mann in fabricating yet another false claim, they are committing what should be a sanctionably offense in support of Mann’s fabricated claims.
    Seems like the only consistent thing about Mann is his habit of creating false claims and pretending that he should be left alone.


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    WillR

    I guess Mann is encouraging the others…
    http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2010/04/21/bc-andrew-weaver-national-post-lawsuit.html

    Now Andrew Weaver is in the Act.


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    WillR

    For the record, Mann did not sue. A lawyer sent a demand letter — with an implicit threat.

    However, as I mentioned. Dr. Weaver, a fine Canadian Scientist is suing the National Post. The statement of claim is available at this link.

    http://www.desmogblog.com/climate-scientist-sues-national-post

    I find it is breathtaking in its scope. Enjoy the read!

    Or here directly!

    http://www.desmogblog.com/sites/beta.desmogblog.com/files/Weaver%20vs%20Corcoran.pdf


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    Thanks to Dave at #36 for the working link. (That tree in the first one looked kinda carnivorous if you ask me…)


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    MadJak

    O/T, but speaking of law suits, here is something that will probably be buried under the melbourne storm drama:

    Insulation scheme canned, remaining Money to be used to fix existing installs and restore confidence in Insulation installation sector

    Well timed from a political perspective, Pity it’s us honest tax payers who are going to have to pay for it….

    Maybe as well as the 4 families who lost a loved one, maybe the insurance companies should sue the govt for the 120+ homes that have burnt down?


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    Brian

    Exposing the CHARLATAN “Michael Mann” by telling the TRUTH about him is NOT defamation!

    It is simply THE FACTS!


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    janama

    May I suggest that Joanne start a sticky thread that lists the most outrageous science research that claims a link to climate change.

    Here’s a contender.

    http://www.theage.com.au/environment/whale-poo-key-to-healthy-oceans-20100422-tfvc.html

    EVERY little bit helps. Research has revealed the potential value of whale poo in mitigating climate change through its recycling of iron.

    Australian Antarctic scientists looking into ways to increase the amount of CO2-absorbing algae in oceans have traced the passage of iron through whale digestive systems and have found that whales take up iron when they consume shrimp-like krill.

    Before commercial whaling began early last century, whales consumed about 190 million tonnes of krill per year, converting this into about 7600 tonnes of iron-rich faeces, which encouraged the growth of carbon-absorbing algae, according to Steve Nicol, of the Australian Antarctic Division.

    ”This monumental fertilising effort means the whales may have been responsible for recycling about 12 per cent of the current iron content in the surface layer of the Southern Ocean,” Dr Nicol said.

    ”The baleen whales’ faecal iron concentration is about 10 million times that of Antarctic seawater.”

    He said about 24 per cent of the total iron in the Southern Ocean surface water is currently stored within krill body tissue.

    ”The most recent estimates of krill biomass in the Southern Ocean is 379 million tonnes, storing about 15,000 tonnes of iron.”

    The research suggests increasing populations of baleen whales and krill would have a positive effect on the Southern Ocean ecosystem and improve the ocean’s ability to absorb CO2.


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    pat

    David Keaveny -
    sadly the LibDems are even more gung ho on CAGW than the two major parties in the UK. heard one on BBC recently stating the party is critical of labour as well as conservatives, because labour didn’t go far enough on ‘climae change’…and now the highlight of the second debate!!!!

    22 April: Guardian:Michael White: Leaders’ TV debate: Nick Clegg: Score 9/10
    Best moment: When he accused Dave of working with “nutters, anti-Semites, people who deny climate change exists, homophobes”.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/22/tv-leaders-debate-nick-clegg

    22 April: BusinessWeek: Brown Attacks Clegg on Trident, Slams Cameron on EU (Update2)
    Clegg described the Conservatives’ allies as “a bunch of nutters, anti-Semites, people who deny climate change exists, homophobes.”..
    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-22/cameron-clegg-brown-clash-on-europe-in-tv-election-debate.html

    22 April: Financial Times: Matthew Engel: Surreal spot from well-worn comedy trio
    Mr Clegg – predictably enough in a foreign affairs debate – called the Tories’ new allies in the European parliament “nutters, homophobes, anti-Semites and climate change deniers”. ..
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f4fceed4-4e5c-11df-b48d-00144feab49a.html


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    pat

    btw clegg isn’t jumping on any bandwagon cos the election is due:

    June 2009: UK Times: Nick Clegg warns anti-Semitism on rise in the UK
    “Casual” anti-Jewish sentiments have “crept back” into British life says the leader of the Liberal Democrats
    He will also single out Conservative leader David Cameron for criticism for standing “shoulder-to-shoulder” with the likes of Poland’s Law and Justice Party, which Mr Clegg describes as a party whose views are “anti-gay, deny climate change, espouse fundamentalist Christianity, and who associated themselves with figures regularly accused of anti-Semitism.” ..
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6498148.ece

    love the scientists are ‘sharply divided’ bit:

    23 April 2010: UK Mirror: ICELAND, UK AND DEEP GREEN MOVEMENT
    While scientists are sharply divided over whether man-made causes or global warming to be precise triggered the eruption of Eyjafjallajokull volcano in Iceland and the slew of earthquakes that continue to rock the world, the enormity of the impact of thee catastrophes has forced the world to review the direction of the civilization.
    As the world solemnly observed the 40th Earth Day yesterday the helplessness of the man in the face of growing threats by nature’s wrath is being dawned upon as never before in contemporary history.
    Against this backdrop it is a redeeming feature to see leaders who are quite informed about this philosophy – that man should revert to his old ways for survival – doing extremely well politically, especially in the industrialized nations.
    UK’s Liberal Democratic leader Nick Clegg is one such person…
    And the 43 year old leader who has done a thesis on the political philosophy of the Deep Green Movement about twenty years ago still champions environment..
    The Deep Green Movement believes that livable conditions for human beings could only be created by dismantling the existing structures of the industrial civilization and this is an extension of a scientific hypothesis by a NASA researcher propagated in the 1960s and 70s…
    http://www.dailymirror.lk/print/index.php/editorial/106-editorial/8765.html


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    Post169

    The video linked on this post is no longer available; JibJab has made a copyright claim.
    However, the original video by Minnesotans For Global Warming is available at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMqc7PCJ-nc


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    Brian

    SUBJECT:’ Confirmed! Global warming is ‘settled’ – as a scam

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=143181


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    Bulldust

    Tel @ 63:

    What you describe is what is referred to as “carbon leakage.” In other words, countries that unilaterally impose carbon taxes lose the impacted industries to countries with no such taxation. It won’t happen immediately, but wuill happen over time. All this for idealistic, vote-seeking dogma.

    It is clear to me that Rudd cares less about Australia than his own ego and career. more fool me for voting him in – I was sick of Howard’s deceit but I should have stuck with the devil I knew. I won’t make that mistake again.


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    Roy Hogue

    At least James Hansen has had the good judgment to avoid suing those who’ve called him a liar, a fraud and other things. Mann will have to be as stupid as a rock to go on and file the suit. His act may withstand his university’s worthless attention but it’ll never survive discovery and presentation to a jury.


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    Tel

    It is clear to me that Rudd cares less about Australia than his own ego and career. more fool me for voting him in – I was sick of Howard’s deceit but I should have stuck with the devil I knew. I won’t make that mistake again.

    Howard should have stepped down in good grace well before getting slaughtered at the last election. It’s sad really, he just didn’t know when to quit. It’s annoying that there are so few options, and all of them strongly Statist and generally incompetent to boot.

    Rudd has demonstrated convincingly that heavy handed government intervention is a guaranteed failure. His insulation scheme failed, and his school spending was rorted. There’s at least a small chance that Australian people might learn something from this. I believe the USA is heading for a disaster, and it will end in worse than tears — not entirely Obama’s fault but he didn’t help matters any. If Australia can hang in there we might learn something from the crash of the Obama regime. I’m trying to be optimistic here.

    Who knows, even the Green movement might learn something as the AGW ship runs aground.


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    Bulldust

    The 1950s and 1960s were the golden era for the good ole US of A. It has been a gradual decline since then IMO. I always argued that they were an empire that was passing it’s peak, albeit slowly and gracefully. Unlike the Japanese economy which stormed the economic mount only to fall on its sword.

    We will witness the rise of China in the next few decades… and the real question is what type of China will emerge. Like Japan during its growth and consequent decadence, I don’t see China holding onto traditional values or politics too strongly, but the USA’s influence isn’t quite what it used to be (during Japan’s rise and stagnation).

    One thing about China… they won’t let poxy AGW-schemes get in the way of their economic progress. Interesting times ahead.


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    [...] alarmism ; Alarmists stoop to new low ; Alarmist spin ; Gullible media or should we say corrupt! ; Mann hissy fit ; What price the truth : AKPC_IDS += [...]


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    Bush bunny

    On pajamasmedia, there is an article regard Obama’s administration
    investigating Goldman Sachs and also Al Gores cap ‘n trade investments company. Be interesting to see what comes out of this.

    You are not telling me, intelligent men, scientists or not, hadn’t got political advisers telling them ‘This is the biggest rort in modern times, as AGW is not true. Particularly as Carbon trading is losing value fast, and many countries in Europe have invested trillions in it?”

    Then they all realize that Mann was at fault? Let’s help the US Government to investigate. Fellow American posters, it’s up to you now to push this.

    They a liking this rort like the sub-prime failures or Carbon Gate.


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    Michael Mann is just an innocent sod buster trying to earn a living. Kinda like Lucas McCain from the rifle man. Yep, old Lucas gunned down an average of 2.5 people per episode. So what if the Wegman report put the proverbial neck around Mikey’s neck? It was those evil people in Minnesota who pulled the lever and sprung the trap door. Yep, poor Mikey, just another victim. The audacity of those who have not been to the meteorological Mount Olympus with the climate gods! How could they know for they have not eaten from thestatistical fruit of the sacred tree of knowledge? Alas, alack and anon, it was cut down for tree ring data. Worst of all, it was a strip bark tree. Ironically, the original data was entrusted to the CRU and it was “lost”. Well, I guess we will just have to trust them. If that paragon of logic, MattB, trusts them (see Matt’s dazzling display of deductive reasoning at comment #11) then, why can’t we? In the words of that great community organizer, Rodney King, “Can’t we all just get along”?


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    “thestatistical” should be the statistical.


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    Baa Humbug

    Eddy Aruda: #86
    April 23rd, 2010 at 5:46 pm

    he hehe poetic Eddy, just poetic.

    Missed you old son, where you bin?


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    Patagon

    It seems that Andrew Weaver is following suit.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/apr/22/climate-change-libel-action-canada-national-post

    Are we witnessing an attempt to resurect of The Tribunal de la Santa Inquisición?


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    Bush bunny

    Dendrochronology,(Hope I spelled that right) is used in archaeology, and for understanding paleo climates and rain fall.
    The best results are from temperate regions as they have four distinct seasons. Oaks are decideous. However – the distance between rings indicates that particularly tree’s growth pattern. In a forest the same species of trees may differ (say if one doesn’t receive as much rain as another or is for some reason deprived of sunshine etc or is diseased) Usually during drought years the tree’s growth is restricted obviously, but not because it is hotter but the lack of H2O.

    The was some problem with carbon dating estimates some years ago
    using tree rings, can’t remember what exactly, but certain dating measures had to take into question with the Bristle cone pines that there were years when something threw the accepted Carbon dating off.

    I didn’t know how Mann did his temperature graph, but if he based
    in on tree rings, he was an idiot! Even I knew that would not be possible. If his trees had made a growth spurt it wouldn’t have been through CO2 increases in the atmosphere, but probably more rain and good seasons.


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    Rereke Whaakaro

    janama: #73

    … whales consumed about 190 million tonnes of krill per year, converting this into about 7600 tonnes of iron-rich faeces …

    Sounds like a load of crap to me.


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    Rereke Whaakaro

    Pat #74 & #75

    I wouldn’t give any credence to anything a UK politician says during the election black-comedy season.

    They are tightly scripted by their respective (or disrespective) “press-officers”, who are answerable to the party hierarchy and backers. My response to Janama @ 91 also applies here.


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    Bush bunny

    Clegg of Lib.Dems is blasting his way through, he’s a better speaker
    I feel. But I agree with you Brown is desperate right now, and
    Cameron feeling his way carefully.

    But Lord Monckton removed his application to sit for somewhere in
    Scotland. Shame


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    Rereke Whaakaro

    Bulldust: # 83

    China also has its problems.

    China is not one country made up of different states, like the US or Australia, with a common language and ethnicity. It is actually made up of a number of countries, with different languages or dialects, and often different ethnic backgrounds (the Mongols and Tibetans, are two examples). What holds these countries together is an occupying bureaucracy, backed by the military.

    All of China’s “prosperity” is concentrated on the east coast. The rest of the Chinese population is extremely poor, by comparison. This creates an internal economic tension within China that has, in the past, been a major driver for uprisings and revolutions.

    The Chinese Communist Party is the latest in a long line of ruling classes, and like their forbears, they must maintain a delicate balance. At some stage they will fail. It may be soon, or it may be later, but fail they will.


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    Bush bunny

    Do you think so? Rereke they are also one of the biggest polluters
    in the world. There production control is a bit dicey. They’ve just imprisoned an Australian for taking bribes he was the Rio Tinto rep. US of A owes the Chinese billions (about 500 billion) They are a sleeping dragon. But like the Russians they won’t be cowtowing to Deep Greens or Pachauri’s don’t eat meat and save the planet nonsense. There’s always some good in each nation. They do have a big rural problem of poverty, lack of communications, earthquakes (do you hear the Chinese asking for aid for the most recent one?)

    Anyway folks keep up the good fight. I’m off to bed to watch
    Walker:Texas Ranger. I know it is predicable, but it’s good to see the goodies win for a change. LOL


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    Rereke Whaakaro

    Bush bunny: #95

    There’s always some good in each nation.

    Well, I try not to make judgements regarding “good” or “bad”. The concepts are a bit too subjective for me, because they are always relative to your own position.

    I agree with your other comments though.


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    Joe Spencer

    Bush bunny: @ #93:
    April 23rd, 2010 at 8:14 pm

    ….
    But Lord Monckton removed his application to sit for somewhere in
    Scotland. Shame

    LM is a force in his own right.
    Not sure that aligning himself with a party line was such a good idea. He doesn’t need it. He’d be more effective as an Independent.


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    Bush bunny

    Hi Joe,

    He was standing for the UK National Independent Party, but withdrew as they had a policy they would not stand against a party ‘Bring back truth in Parliament’ something like that. So not to split votes.

    I think this government elections in UK are going to be very close My ex husband & I left UK after Harold Wilson got in, as he scrapped the supersonic medium range V bomber my husband was short listed to fly.


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    Bush bunny

    Rereke I was only joking. I meant to say really that the Russians
    and Chinese won’t take any nonsense from this Al Gorian and other
    alarmists.

    Pres. Putin was noted for saying “I don’t know what they are worried about a few more C of warmth will benefit our agricultural production.


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    An Inconvenient Provocateur: Interview with Prof Judith Curry by Keith Floor in which Prof. Curry States:
    Corruptions to the IPCC process that I have seen discussed include:
    • lead/contributing authors assessing their own work – (e.g. von Storch criticism in 2005), in some cases resulting in an overemphasis on their own papers written by themselves and their collaborators;
    • tailoring graphics and not adequately describing uncertainties ostensibly to simplify and not to “dilute the message” that IPCC wanted to send;
    • violations of publication (in press) deadlines for inclusions of papers in the IPCC report;
    • inadequacies in the review process whereby lead/contributing authors don’t respond fairly to adverse criticism; this inadequacy arises in part to the authors themselves having ultimate authority and in part to cursory performance by the Review Editors;
    • evasiveness and unresponsiveness by the IPCC regarding efforts to investigate alleged violations occurring in the review process;
    • IPCC Review Editors and authors using the IPCC to avoid accountability under national FOI legislation.

    See more at An Inconvenient Provocateur


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    Bush bunny

    MattB @47? Don’t forget we have bush fires and if they count them
    in you might be right, but they are natural burning (and most are
    from lightening strikes) that’s a difference from human made CO2
    and anyway Greenhouse Gases are natural 99% – these alarmist willfully manipulate statistics.

    Now the latest is solar flares are going to kill us. Earthquakes
    and volcanoes are caused by climate change and global warming?
    The media is onto 2012 the time we all croak from a natural disaster of our own making????

    Look in Australia we are too close to the ring of fire, where
    75% of the worlds active volcanoes are. You think Iceland was
    bad – wait for another Toba or Big Ben or a nasty one to erupt
    near us.


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    Charles Bourbaki

    Der Fuhrer is also not impressed about these global warming and other parodies being removed from You Tube


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    Bush bunny

    Charles that was brilliant. Those actors are so good! I tried to save it, but couldn’t.


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    hunter

    The AGW promters think they can sue their way to settling the science.
    They are fools.


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    Ben Hern

    So how do you stop people quite rightly ridiculing an unsupportable myth? Just sue.
    The Vultures (lawyers) have seen a new retail opportunity which will no doubt prove a lifeline to beleaguered champions of the hot-air affect, like United Nothing-doers IPCC modeler Andrew Weaver, if it’s successful.
    See the article here (if it hasn’t already been noted on these pages). Now if this debating tactic doesn’t set alarm bells ringing, one has to despair the devolution of the species.


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    Joe Spencer

    Bush bunny:
    April 23rd, 2010 at 10:20 pm

    Hi Joe,

    He was standing for the UK National Independent Party, but withdrew as they had a policy they would not stand against a party ‘Bring back truth in Parliament’ something like that. So not to split votes.

    I think this government elections in UK are going to be very close My ex husband & I left UK after Harold Wilson got in, as he scrapped the supersonic medium range V bomber my husband was short listed to fly.

    Hi Bunny,
    It was rather as a truly non-aligned independent that, I meant Lord Monckton would do better – forgetting that ‘Independence’ was also in the name of UKIP that he’d been put forward for.

    He has rather more credibility than UKIP and they have a lot more to gain by the association.

    I’m sorry to hear you were a casualty of the Wilson cuts, although the country not only lost you. My pilot friend Claudio, an avid astrophysicist & military historian, regales me with tales of the incredible TSR-2, lamenting it’s cancellation as the turning point which heralded the demise of a once remarkable British engineering and aerospace capability, that could never be reclaimed.

    It’s no wonder the Security Services took such an interest it’s executioner.


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    Keith

    Three cheers for the Minnesotans.
    Mann is fully invested in the trial by media and trial by politics paradigms, which worked quite effectively for a decade (but no longer). His arrogance has caused him to over reach, and the resulting fall will be spectacular. This is the normal business cycle for conmen (I have met and prosecuted a few in my time). He has no intention of pursuing this through the courts, as the burden of proof would fall fully on him to demonstrate the truth of his conjectures. He knows this is impossible, unless he has become delusional. Someone should enquire into the status of this “legal action” in about six months, just to appreciate the spin in the response.


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    Bush Bunny

    OT/ for Joe,

    That plane depended on a super class radar/guidance system German made of course, that allowed the plane to fly under radar observance at low level. (Tree skimming almost) It carried two
    stand off nuclear bombs. Even by today’s standards that plane
    would have been very useful. But this guidance system cost over
    1 million or so pounds. My ex was a bit of a whiz, low flying
    actually. PR 9s and Vulcans.

    But other than the yanks who could they sell it too? And the yanks were developing their own planes. The swing wing ones.


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    Bush Bunny

    Keith I agree, what is he going to sue about? Defamation, libel,
    making him look like a joke. Shame there isn’t some rich guy who
    could counter sue and the legal fees wouldn’t hold him back.

    I think they will wait to see the out come after Goldman Sachs
    and Al Gore? If there is any. I don’t know if the US Gov. are
    after Investment banks who were party to the mortgage debacle as well as CCTs.investments.

    If you have legal experience maybe you can comment, is there any law against selling Carbon? If their value plummets is that a crime? Bad luck yes. But trillions are involved including pension schemes etc., and when this bubble bursts, who knows a lot of innocent people will be financially out of pocket. The BBC
    for one who has its pension fund in CCTs.

    I suspect that selling something under false pretenses is illegal. Like CO2 causes climate change?


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    Kevin

    The warmists should all sacrifice themselves to their new gaia god by throwing themselves in the volcano!
    That’s the only way to stop it erupting….


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    Tel

    That plane depended on a super class radar/guidance system German made of course, that allowed the plane to fly under radar observance at low level. (Tree skimming almost) It carried two stand off nuclear bombs. Even by today’s standards that plane would have been very useful.

    An old F111 should be able to do much the same job, the RAAF still keep them in service (but we have no nuclear bombs to put into them, and never did, and probably never will). Supposedly they can bomb you going twice the speed of sound, with a longish range to boot. Not much good if it gets into a dogfight, all it can really do it hope to outrun the bad guy, and hope that their radar doesn’t ping until after the bombs have gone off.

    Australians get laughed at by Americans for still flying F111′s but in the Pacific area they are still a credible threat. Supposedly the maintenance is high and the only spare parts you can get are from wreaking yards in the USA, so maintenance is only going to get worse.


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    Ted O'Brien

    It is strange that the F111 should have got in here. It is, nevertheless, like AGW an outstanding example of political untruth.

    The F111 has to be the greatest white elephant that was ever sold for real money. Right from the start it could not work without crashing itself. To my knowledge it did two hostile missions in its entire life. The first in VietNam, where 24 went out at night and 18 came back. The Viet Cong had no means of shooting them down. They sent a squadron to bomb Gadaffi in Lybia. Again, he had no means of shooting them down, but one disappeared.

    Australia bought them, and far too many of those have crashed, killing crews, without ever going to real work. STill our politicians pretend to us that they are a defence force. They are Russian roulette for the aircrews.

    Political lies did not start with AGW.


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    Rod Smith

    @Ted O’Brien #115:
    BINGO!!! The F-111 was the brainchild of a Secretary of Defense who admitted in his book that when he took office he didn’t even know what an “atom bomb” was. Absolutely incredible.


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    Brian G Valentine

    Michael Mann has nothing to complain about at all.

    If I made a video featuring him, then he’d REALLY have something to sue about.


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    Henry chance

    http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/04/26/climate-scientist-heated-satire-threatens-lawsuit/

    Today the video and report is featured on Fox News. This suit backfired on Mann. He was more nearly forgotten and now the smell has been spread.


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    Rod Smith

    Henry Chance # 118:

    Wow! Thanks for the new video you referenced. It is a DANDY! I’d bet Mann wishes he hadn’t brought the thing up, because the new one is far more devastating than the old one.


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    Bush bunny

    Hi all,

    Do you remember my comment in @112, we need a rich man to take on
    Mann. Well Fox News is run by Rupert Murdoch? I agree Mann must
    feel cornered, and what ever happens I don’t think he will be getting any more monies to prove Global Warming do you?


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    [...] ‘Stick’ Mann might be busy suing the world over a parody, but he has some real problems with his data that he won’t be able to sue [...]


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    Well, I knew it was coming. In fact, I predicted it quite a long time ago when I said that Dr. Michael E Mann, Ph.D. would fleece people out of their life’s savings. And now that he has, we must surely weed out people like Dr. Mann who have deceived, betrayed, and exploited us. To begin with, Dr. Mann wants nothing less than to give rise to inimical bludgers, hence his repeated, almost hypnotic, insistence on the importance of his intemperate zingers. He should not be allowed to operate heavy machinery, specifically, his ego, and besides, if it weren’t for quixotic pop psychologists, he would have no friends.


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    [...] the alleged scientist behind the hokey hockey-stick graph and serial scaremonger to the masses is suing over a parody video, which has some skeptics wondering if Mann realizes the implications of his action: If Mann takes a [...]


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    [...] luck hiding the decline, Michael. Oh yeah, that lawsuit worked out well, didn’t it? Rate this:Pimpit:TwitterFacebookLike this:LikeOne blogger likes [...]


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